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The rest / Re: Climate on Reddit
« on: April 18, 2019, 08:43:51 AM »
more blah blah blah

Eh bud, thats all well and good and such, but I have a bit of a knack for noticing these types of accounts, and you miss 100% of the shots you don't take.

Since this thread is about reddit:

Here are 6 separate accounts that are actively turfing on reddit (/r/collapse and other related subs, several which tom_mazanec here linked, you will find many of the accounts in this image either submitting or in comments if you follow his links), several on a daily basis, that I just managed to link tonight via their just-more-than-enough mistake of using such a particular phrase as "luvin' at the end of the world" on every single Guy McPherson thread that came up on /r/collapse. 3 of these, I accused of being the same individual/entity operating the account before finding this pretty overwhelmingly convincing (to anyone with common sense) evidence of an active astro-turfing campaign across at least 6 accounts on reddit. Anyone may google "guy mcpherson luvin reddit" and click through all the links, ctrl+f "luvin" and find all these different accounts using that very particular phrase. You will find all the accounts to have cohesive opinions. The same person/entity operates AT LEAST 6 active accounts on /r/collapse, if not more, obscuring reality about climate change in general and more or less bootlicking for the oil companies/business as usual politics and economics.

This kind of turfing happens here as well, I guarantee it - I've been watching recently.

It is relevant for me to link this image, since Tom_Mazanec has linked multiple subreddits wherein these accounts (run by the same person/people) operate and post regularly with the intent to obscure reality, disrupt productive conversation, and push a narrative.

Have a good night!

The rest / Re: Climate on Reddit
« on: April 18, 2019, 04:59:41 AM »
blah blah blah

Don't worry, I'm not an active/frequent user here. A lurker, usually. Only noticed the disinfo at work and popped in to call 'em out for the real folks. Couldn't care less if I get muted here, frankly, I've already done what had to be done. If I'm "delusional" then the other readers will see that - right? Nothing to worry about, Lurk ;) People can do their own investigation and come to their own conclusions.

Ta ta!

The rest / Re: Climate on Reddit
« on: April 18, 2019, 03:25:29 AM »
The Topic is ... Climate on Reddit

Everything else above is distinctly Off-Topic!

The Topic was not "Tom's a Liar and a Creep and a fucking sick wackjob!"

You're Cowards imho!

Why am I not surprised you are defending him? And shouldn't you be busy filling up recent posts w/ TESLA TESLA POLITICS TESLA TESLA TESLA?  ;)

Of course these are always losing battles for people in my position, and of course disinfo agents ALWAYS demand "civility", but... you people are far from civil or humanist in your behaviors online, why should I be civil towards y'all? That's just an easy way out for you people. "I can say whatever bullshit I want, anytime I want, I can devalue discussion all I want, so long as I'm civil nobody can stop me". You people know how online communities generally operate and you abuse them in such a way that you can operate freely together with little concern, because you KNOW that people don't often get banned for "civil but overt ignorance".

Ok, sure, have at 'er, but don't expect civility from the people who see you creeps for what you are. You folk are obscuring the truth from humanity for personal gain, that's sick and so are you all involved in this.

Have a good one

The rest / Re: Climate on Reddit
« on: April 18, 2019, 02:21:43 AM »
Tim - thanks for the elaborate explanation of what has been bothering me almost from the get-go.
5to10 - while I appreciate your position on the matter, could you please tone down the inappropriate language?
No problem. I'm frustrated with these liars, and deal with them regularly online, sorry.

We are in a climate emergency. Literal emergency. We who pay attention know time is very fleeting, and distribution of accurate, pertinent information is important. Those who are obscuring reality need to be outed at this point so the truth can, hopefully, get to the right eyes who can do something with it. So there is no confusion as to what we're dealing with here - an imminent crisis.

The rest / Re: Climate on Reddit
« on: April 18, 2019, 12:25:22 AM »
If this is the case, good for you for sniffing this very subliminal activity out 5to10. There's one of these plants on another top known blog I frequent, and I feel these are the example of your paid, dedicated social media disruptors ... not like your flyby trolls, but a dedicated 'regular poster' who drags conversations all over the place and pretends to be naive about it when confronted. I agree that Tom_M displays the same, brazen "what, I ain't doin' nothin'" style as the one on the blog I'm referring to.

On the other blog, the one I'm referring to, the person always has multiple personalities logged in at once, and when exposed, just drops those accounts and makes six new ones. You can tell it's them, because they come on as these brand new people and immediately pick up with the same style as the ones that just got exposed and disappeared. No brand new poster to a blog just jumps right in ... and when pushed back at, even by the blog moderators ... just keeps right on going. You can tell the style of discourse is similar to all the other logins, and they always take these phony steps to try and establish themselves as a different gender or from a radically different location from their other multiple logins, but if you're keen you can spot the 'doth protest too much' style and the similar tactics of all the logins, which are always all very uncommon from your typical commenter.

They say provocative things, and then just pretend to be naive. They will spout off disinformation, then say they're just trying to learn. But then they'll pop out of the blue and call AGW a religion, just to create some shock on the blog. They say things that anyone else would know to be abrasive to the general tone of the blog, and then just feign nativity ... yet they brazenly continue (in actual discourse, this would make the person come off as a sociopath who has no shame in what they say, and just keeps charging forth among a group who is completely unlike them. Ordinary commenters would never behave like that, there would be a learned reticence after causing a few rows.

I mean ... did Tom really just draw an association between AGW advocates and a terrorist? Using elaborate IP masks must be being used to hide the activity from the mods on the site I'm using in my example, and that tells me they are probably financed to be doing this. And they are at it 24/7 at the site I'm referring to (and just return with new logins when they are exposed, but you can tell it's them with a handful of new accounts ... and it's all one person doing it, for over a year now it's been going on. That's pretty dedicated. ... ie. $$$) Some of these multiple logins will always jump in out of nowhere to defend the person when they get themselves backed into a corner, and then together they all start crying about being bullied, even if they were the one doing the bullying and mocking all afternoon. At their most subtle, they are just always there and trolling certain high value bloggers on the site and dragging the conversations down into pedestrian topics that don't even seem to make sense in the context of the days discourse. It seems to all be about distraction and intentionally burning a popular blog.

This, is your new paid social media infiltrator if you ask me (not the raving troll.) You may very likely have spotted one in this Tom fellow 5to10. I agree, his whole approach here has been very "off" so far.

"What, I ain't doin' nothin'. I liked that bomber dude. Don't you guys like that bomber dude?"

It's a very particular style. Like it's organized. And wow ... spam, spam, spam, spam ... and very pedestrian too as he wiggles in to find his niche here. Neven ought to be aware, this is becoming a new thing I'm starting to see on blogs now. If Tom truly wants to be part of the action ... then how about a little less keystroking ... and a little more reading. I find his input here to be markedly off in a very similar way to the plant on the other blog I'm referring to.

Good catch 5to10. I thought I'd throw in my observations from the other site where I watch this going on as well. A disruptor, maybe even a professional one. I've found him annoying ever since he arrived. Now, he's nearly the whole forum, and it's all very pedestrian and distracting, or even down right nonsensical.

I spend a lot of time the past couple years exposing these people on the forums I frequent as well - which I frequent for hours a day, every day, which is how I have the time and energy to recognize and investigate their patterns. I monitor them, like they monitor the boards they frequent to spread disinfo. I study them, I study their post histories and who they interact with, how they talk, how they format their text, etc. They don't like me.

These people/entities have threatened me with their ever so subtle allusions many times, and their presence increases on these forums as awareness increases w/ regards to our miserable predicament. All I can say in response to their threats is, do your worst. You'll have to put me down to shut me up, your threats don't dissuade me.

“Never contend with a man who has nothing to lose.” and in my case, a good heart with the intent to reduce suffering here in this crazy mess we find ourselves in.

The rest / Re: Climate on Reddit
« on: April 17, 2019, 11:27:22 PM » gives a number of scary headlines, but seldom updates. updates very frequently, but has a lot of "local" weather events. has more local events that might be of interest to us, but does not update often. sometimes covers climate protests et al. updates moderately often and has good AGW articles. is very good for subject and frequency of update. updates only occasionally and covers other facets of the global Metacrisis as well as AGW.
On the other side of the aisle, gives the denier side of the issue. You may want to debate on that reddit. Or not.

Any others I've missed, on either side of the aisle? "Oops I forgot this one, even though it's the most active community on the topic and I literally just posted a link to it hours before neglecting to link it here and then acting like I don't frequent it"

You're a liar and easily caught. Go away, fraud. Acting like you are more or less unaware/unconcerned with /r/collapse when you JUST posted a link to it, it's almost certainly the one you visit the most of the bunch - because it is the most active and most realistic as anyone who has visited those links knows - including you.

Acting like you don't know cliffhanger1983 when he is incredibly active on all those subs. You're entirely full of shit, and connected to those disinfo entities on reddit, as I originally stated. Why you're here acting ignorant and posting bullshit about abortion etc. - exact same bullshit you're constnatly pulling on reddit. "I'm just dumb! I'm just ignorant! Nobody can really tell whether I'm intentionally ignorant or just really don't understand what I'm talking about, so they can't really ban me or target me and I can carry on subverting discussion as I please!" Yeah, sorry bud, I'm here too just like I have been on reddit taking your asses on for yrs. with your endless number of disinfo accounts there.

Get bent bud. Youre a fucking sick wackjob for non-stop trying to delude and distract people.

Arctic sea ice / Re: Are 3 dimensions better than 2?
« on: April 17, 2019, 11:23:13 PM »
The discussion here is related to Arctic sea ice, not to Antarctic land ice. GRACE has been and still is mentioned in many threads, such as the Ice Apocalypse - MULTIPLE METERS SEA LEVEL RISE thread.

That account is disinfo or just a straight up troll. They are well aware of what they're doing here and well aware this is the wrong thread for what they are posting.

The rest / Re: Climate on Reddit
« on: April 17, 2019, 11:18:45 PM »
Sorry, I forgot that one. I was in my Peak Oil bookmark folder from back when I was more concerned about that.
Here it is and it updates quite often.
No I am not trying to disinform people...I am getting quite worried about AGW. Unless you are a denier? Or Sam Canara?
And who is cliffhanger1983? Sounds familiar, but I can't place him.
Here is another I put in Peak Oil for some reason which is quite pessimistic and often updates.

^^^^Disinfo agent who knows exactly what I'm talking about and is feigning ignorance.

This person is only here to post bullshit and only occasionally, vaguely stay on topic so it doesn't appear so. Trust me. Go look what they're posting so far their first few days.

The rest / Re: Climate on Reddit
« on: April 17, 2019, 06:48:13 PM » gives a number of scary headlines, but seldom updates. updates very frequently, but has a lot of "local" weather events. has more local events that might be of interest to us, but does not update often. sometimes covers climate protests et al. updates moderately often and has good AGW articles. is very good for subject and frequency of update. updates only occasionally and covers other facets of the global Metacrisis as well as AGW.
On the other side of the aisle, gives the denier side of the issue. You may want to debate on that reddit. Or not.

Any others I've missed, on either side of the aisle?

Of course, /r/collapse - but you came from there, cliffhanger1983 account operator disinfo guy, so I dunno why you haven't included it.

Oh that's right, because the community there doesn't put up with you or the rest of the disinfo shills bullshit - you've only linked the mild subs which don't really focus on reality at all - they downplay everything, or there is no good discussion on them.

Sorry, did you think I was going to let you get away with your disinfo distractionary bullshit here any more than I do there? Nope. Already see you trying to reduce quality of discussion/avoid discussing reality here the past day or two with your abortion and "posting online is a strain on the environment" bullshit, give it up loser.

The politics / Re: The Media: Examples of Good AND Bad Journalism
« on: April 15, 2019, 11:41:12 PM »
How much damage Cold War thinking/conditioning has done around the world... And much progress hasn't been made since, as we have just seen with the Russiagate-scandal.

Ehh you should already know why that is though. World leaders are well aware of the imminent catastrophe and such theatrics are part of their last ditch sleight of hand. Get people focused on phantom dangers, infighting, rather than allow them to become aware of the coming apocalypse.

Consequences / Re: World of 2030
« on: April 15, 2019, 10:16:36 PM »

In that case, I will stop responding.  There would be no point trying to change those deliberately posting misinformation.

But you are the only one here doing that, as Archimid pointed out multiple times.

Consequences / Re: World of 2030
« on: April 15, 2019, 09:27:16 PM »
Your claim the the losses increase gdp is just a straw man argument.

Losses increase the GDP If and only if insurance or government pay to replace the losses. That is a simple inevitable fact.

The losses amount to less than one half of one percent.

Sigh. Losses, payout and GDP do not have a one to one to one relationship.

The person you're responding to has a vested interest in obscuring reality. That is feigned ignorance w/ the intention of misleading at its finest they are portraying.

Consequences / Re: World of 2030
« on: April 15, 2019, 08:46:47 PM »

I see.  Another poster who responds with insults to anyone presenting research and data that contradicts their closely held beliefs.

There comes a point where those of us with inherently more common sense/intuition than others like yourself begin to reflect on the vast number of systems breaking down at once, all "faster than expected", realize the IPCC is overly conservative, realize scientists specialize and are not putting "the big picture" together for us (The IPCC does that but they aren't realistic - we know this for a fact) and thus realize there is a very great possibility this all comes crashing down within years.

Go ahead, cry at me for data and peer review to "prove it" all you want. Whether or not you are satisfied with mine and many others extrapolations has no bearing on what is actually happening out there, in the same way that a total climate change denier has no bearing on it.

You and many others will be blindsided because of your unfortunate, instinctual, and thus inevitable lean towards hubris. Many of us with more keen instincts are trying to warn you, but you just won't have it because of that good ol' hubris cultivated cog dis. Oh well, I tried, it's all I could do after all.

Get used to the phrase "Faster than expected" mi amigo. That shall be the mantra of the coming years.

Consequences / Re: World of 2030
« on: April 15, 2019, 08:03:34 PM »
... and I thought with a sophisticated, scientific site.

It is. What I told you is the scientific reason why you can't read simple graphs, said in a sophisticated manner.

But go ahead, cry instead of defending your position.

Honestly no point in even bothering with people who can't see the forest through the trees anymore.

Let em be blindsided at this point. Enough of us have spent enough time pleading that we are in for serious shit this decade. Anyone who has genuinely been paying attention, absorbed enough of the available information and not lying to themselves recognizes the imminent danger we are ALL in, regardless of geography. If one important cog goes, so does the rest of the machine, and we're incredibly close to that - plus we're full speed ahead, not slowing down on emissions, nothing. We're absolutely fucked. Further still, if you've been paying attention you KNOW at this point that we're not getting out of this mess - because the vast majority of humanity is on the same page as this other person - "Nothing will be much different in 2030". Okay, enjoy starving, everyone.

If your response to this thread is "Everything will be fine in 2030 with little difference" you're either just plain ignorant and need to learn that you're just utterly fucking wrong at this point so please STFU now and listen to more intelligent/aware individuals than yourself, or you have an agenda here in suppressing the reality - that global collapse is literally on the doorstep with almost literally no actions being taken to prevent it, only actions that will further exacerbate.

Consequences / Re: World of 2030
« on: April 15, 2019, 03:21:15 PM »
Collapse of global civilization by then

Policy and solutions / Re: Tesla glory/failure
« on: April 13, 2019, 02:59:39 PM »

There's a 'method to my madness'. Try not to prejudge who is doing what and why. :)

You need to have a chat with Neven.

He started it, and he just loves this thread ...... everyone is different. ;)

I mean, I really don't care, and I really don't care what Neven likes or doesn't like either. There comes a time with projects like this where "the thing" is no longer the property of the creator. This forum meets criteria in that regard - it's bigger than Neven now and has been for some time. While he may have moderation authority due to his position, that is rather meaningless in the context described. The forum is bigger than Neven at this point and appealing to his authority as to what is quality discussion in the context of our present situation, which is dire (so dire that we should be discussing the types of things Extinction Rebellion is in order to have any hope, and not Tesla, or politics 24/7) is meaningless to a lot of people at this point.

Anyways, I digress. Carry on with your endless turfing. I counted, and only SIX out of your last 50 posts are climate related. The rest are essentially politics and tesla. You clearly have little interest in arctic sea ice. I am certain the ratios would be the same or worse with a handful of other posters here, and they are the ones filling the board up 24/7 with diatribe while the world burns more and more rapidly. It only takes that handful to wash out recent posts, it's bloody annoying.

The urgency seems to have all but disappeared on this forum and given way to diatribe.

Policy and solutions / Re: Tesla glory/failure
« on: April 13, 2019, 02:22:47 PM »
Stop washing the forum out with corporate/political pointlessness.

You pop in here telling us what and what not to do. You never post any sea ice relevant stuff, yet you are complaining about too much politics and Tesla posts.

What is this? Where are your manners? Who are you?

I'm the guy who, long before the Extinction Rebellion was a thought in anyones mind, came here and vehemently suggested exactly the type of thing it is doing: First and foremost, scientists need to get reporters on board and demand they report on climate change rather than bullshit. I can only hope somebody was reading and it had some manner of impact on that movement because that is one of their main concerns.

Beyond that, I'm a guy who is well aware of when shilling and paid-to-post users are at work, and it is blatant here of late. Recent posts is a wash of corporate and political diatribe, thats all I have to say.

Policy and solutions / Re: Tesla glory/failure
« on: April 13, 2019, 02:18:13 PM »
Geez, guy, take a friggin' breath.  I hear ya, but this is the Tesla thread.  Head over to the Melting Season and Area/Extent threads for excellent arctic content.

Yeah, I realize that, just that some time ago clicking recent posts would simply show you all kinds of good information related. Now you have to scroll through pages and pages and pages to find just a few tidbits, it's insane.

I'll do more than take a breath because that's all I'm gonna say about it. I've been lurking for yrs, but I'm tired of the wash content here. It's just getting enough, it's obvious some entities are trying to push all the arctic info out of view on recent posts with bullshit political and EV propaganda instead. Just consistently massive walls of text by the same people, day in, day out, bla bla bla bla bla saying fucking nothing at the end of the day that has any relevance to our dire circumstances, and the clear and imminent danger ahead.

Policy and solutions / Re: Tesla glory/failure
« on: April 13, 2019, 01:57:05 PM »
Now that Elon is pulling the final demand lever, leasing, I expect an order of magnitude increase in the exponential nature of model 3 production growth.

(In theory Tesla could also start doing traditional advertising for one more lever, but Tesla gets tons of free press already and I don't think they have the spare profitability to spend cash on ads.)

Say goodbye legacy autos. Tesla leasing rentals are the new reality. Just imagine, soon anyone will be able to cheaply rent a Tesla and make passive income from the robo-taxi function currently in it's long-term-extended-roll-out.

Tesla said its customers in the United States would be able to lease any Model 3 variant for a small down payment and monthly payments thereafter, but they will not have the option to buy the car at the end of the lease.

Smart of Tesla to keep the cars on their books. Otherwise they can't borrow against them. Leverage is key to long term stability.

Or is that Tesla leasing rentals ridesharing EVs is the new reality?

The Leasing, sorry, the Tesla Long Term Rental Plan (TLTRP) is a boon and so simple. I believe the facts speak for themselves as provided by Tesla rather than via somewhat dubious 3rd Parties.

From the Technology Marketing Behemoth, the Guru of Gurus in Sales Tactics - Tesla Motors:

So the basics:
The Tesla Team April 11, 2019
Beginning today, customers in the U.S. will be able to lease Model 3 for a small down payment and competitive monthly payments. Customers can choose any Model 3 variant and select an annual mileage option of 10,000, 12,000, or 15,000 miles.

Please note, customers who choose leasing over owning will not have the option to purchase their car at the end of the lease, because with full autonomy coming in the future via an over-the-air software update, we plan to use those vehicles in the Tesla ride-hailing network. Customers can visit now to lease a Model 3.

Great let's go: for online US customers only
Step 1
Standard Range Plus (Fake Price $31,450*) Real price $39,500 (Bottom left)
Rear-Wheel Drive; Partial Premium Interior
Estimated delivery: 2-4 weeks
Next, Solid Black, 18’’ Aero Wheels; Next Interior, All Black; Next, Autopilot Included
Optional Extra, Add $5,000 includes standard Full Self-Driving Capability available now,
- Coming later this year (included in Price aka PNUL, Pay Now Use Later)
- 1. Recognize and respond to traffic lights and stop signs. 2. Automatic driving on city streets.
- Includes the Full Self Driving Computer - NOT Selected
- (To Install FSDC after Delivery Add $7,000)
Next, Summary, select LEASE Tab (aka TLTRP)
$3,000 down, 36 months, 10,000 miles (per Year)
Est. lease payment $504 /mo
Calculating that manually 36 Months = $18, 144 + $3,000 = $21,144

Normal Delivery & Docs charge when purchasing is $1,200 - no information if this also applies to a Lease provision. Nor who Pays the annual State Veh. Registration/Insurance Fees, likely the Leaseholder as would normally be the case for Leases. (?)

Cost per Mile (under 30,000) minimum Average $0.7048 per mile - cheaper than an UberX

Actually I am a high user, so I would like the 3rd option on offer - 15,000 miles per Year.
Next, .... Next, .... Next .... OOPS there is no Next. There is no other Option available.

OK then. Pause. Aha! Eureka ... Bottom Middle active link "Estimate payment"

Drop down box for Mileage Options; shows Down standard payment $3,000.
And variable "Due at signing" $4,230 for 15K / yr.
Term = "36 Months" not variable

Therefore 15,000 miles per year "Lease Payment $535 /mo"
Cost per Mile (under 45,000) minimum Average $0.522 per mile - cheaper than a Vespa? 

Now Correcting with "Due at Signing" @ $4,199 and $504 /mo
Cost per Mile (under 30,000) minimum Average $0.7447 per mile - cheaper than an UberX?

Show Details (the fine print) = "The calculator does not include taxes or fees."
No information about excess Mileage charges.
Florida Delivery Timing
    Model 3 Standard Plus Rear-Wheel Drive
    Within 2 weeks (was 2-4 weeks before)

Next "Place Order" Name address etc. which now states:

"Due today to complete your order: $2,500"

What happened to the "$3,000 Order down payment" to be made for Leasing? 

Proceed or Buy for Cash $39,500 ; or Apply for a Tesla Personal Loan

Est. loan payment $594 /mo
$3,000 down, 72 months, 4.25% APR
$1,200 Destination & Doc
Estimate total - $46,968
Plus Taxes and Fees; Registration and Insurance

Too easy. Order now, you'll have it by the end of the month (maybe).

Honestly. Why is this allowed here? HOW IS THIS BEING ALLOWED ON THE FORUM LOL? I've never in my life seen more blatant shilling. This person is literally fucking walking people through the process of purchasing Teslas HAHAHAHAHA. Wow Neven. Is this really what such a large portion of your forum has come to? Fucking Tesla shilling every day?

What a god damn disgrace. Thank god there are more realistic forums out there these days whose users do not put up with this nonsensical for-profit garbage. This is supposed to be the arctic sea ice forum, yet every day for months you click on recent posts and the vast majority of the discussion is unrelated and now simply straight into the realm of overt corporate advertisement. Disgusting.

Policy and solutions / Re: Tesla glory/failure
« on: April 13, 2019, 01:43:03 PM »
bunch of irrelevant fucking bullshit about Tesla again

Just stop. Holy fuck, give it up. The emissions we would create switching over to EV like Tesla or any other, at this  point, means that this is all nothing more than completely useless pandering bullshit and anyone with a clue knows it. Either you are paid to plug Tesla here or you're just completely oblivious, or both.

Stop washing the forum out with corporate/political pointlessness.

You know how we have any chance at all? ZERO EMISSIONS. And even then it looks like that won't even save us anymore - the inertia is too strong. ZERO fucking emissions - not "Some emissions so we can make a bunch of Teslas now for rich people to unsustainably carry their fat lard asses 100km to work and back every day". ZERO EMISSIONS, NOW.

It's discussions like this that have really destroyed a lot of the credibility this forum once had. These are pipe dreams now. It's over. Quit presenting this shit as a solution only to further enrich billionaires who are not being straight with the world as to the efficacy of (see: completely ineffective at this point because we are past the point of more progress/more industry/BAU "But now with EV'S" being a viable solution) their "proposed solutions".

Policy and solutions / Re: Tesla glory/failure
« on: April 13, 2019, 01:17:36 PM »
Sorry but who fucking cares?? It's too late for any of this horse shit to make a difference, this is just a goddamn Tesla ad at this point and has been for months.

Why is this forum a running fucking Tesla ad these days? Is there a concerted effort to turf this forum with political and corporate (See: Tesla) diatribe lately, because I click on recent posts these days and it's a whole lot different than the discussion even a year or two ago. Just constant political and corporate diatribe on this forum of late by the same few entities here.

Rob Dekker and Lurk you two are the fucking worst here. Its just a goddamn running stream of washed out nonsense because of you two pretty much every day on recent posts, sick of browsing this forum. The quality has declined severely over the past 2 yrs. It's become 20% arctic discussion and 80% tangential, largely irrelevant bullshit. Thank fucking christ "Buddy" seems to have disappeared because he was no better - all these people ever seem to do is comment on political/corporate bullshit.

This is a fucking joke, we know that we are far too deep in the shit with far to much inertia for switching over to EV's to matter at this point. Why is this even being discussed as if it's a realistic solution? Is this the arctic sea ice forum still, or the hopium addict network? Christ almighty

The politics / Re: Russia, Russia, Russia
« on: June 09, 2018, 07:36:32 AM »
I ain't been on in a hot minute. But I just came to share the reality.

I share that reality fairly closely with you. Which is why I said yesterday (among other things),2301.msg157829.html#msg157829

People are terribly distracted and totally missing the point while simultaneously losing the plot. :)

Drink up bud. Or spark one, or whatever. Not sure what else there is left to do. Preserving seeds feels like little more than an effort in futility, but I'll continue with that as well.

The politics / Re: Russia, Russia, Russia
« on: June 09, 2018, 06:32:48 AM »
I ain't been on in a hot minute. But I just came to share the reality.

Both sides in the U.S. are complicit in the ongoing diversion of global attention from the reality of abrupt climate change. In fact, name a single Western government, or in fact any powerful nation that gets regular media attention which is being realistic with its constituents regarding the severity of our current predicament. As in motivating their nation to serious, legitimately impactful changes which will prevent our collective demise, reminding people on a regular basis of the steps we need to be taking RIGHT NOW individually and industrially, and actually fucking making an impact. Go ahead. One nation.

Why are there ZERO? Because Trump and the entire fucking circus surrounding him are the biggest fucking diversion in the history of mankind. Because world leaders, collectively and privately, know there are no solutions, just as well as most everyone here. Because we have little time left, and the changes are becoming drastic and noticeable all over the world.

Because the panic that would erupt from global recognition would lead to hasty collapses all over the globe, out of sheer hysteria alone.

The alternative is: Divert. Distract. Deny. Downplay. And simply carry on this way for as long as possible, until the impacts are so severe that it doesn't matter any more - The weather becomes so severe that large portions of our crop systems have failed and there's no food left to go around, for example.

World leaders are coasting on diversionary bullshit, especially at the mouth of Trump (The man who applied to build seawalls around his golf course citing global warming + coastal erosion as a main reason, but allegedly "doesn't believe in climate change" - fucking horse shit, yes he demonstrably does.) to avoid the absolute chaos that would unfold were most people to truly recognize how dire our circumstance.

In other words: Fuck russia, fuck trump, fuck identity politics, fuck liberals, fuck conservatives, fuck the notion that ANY powerhouse nations are taking climate change seriously, simply put, fuck standing in a burning building arguing about the structural integrity. You are about to fucking die, get out of the goddamn building or put the fire out. The individual and collective behaviour of politicians worldwide implies there's simply no way to do so, and so we have our current state of affairs.

You are being duped, no matter which side you find yourself on. Good luck everyone. We will surely need it soon.

Edited for vocab/spelling errors.

The rest / Re: 2017 open thread
« on: March 04, 2017, 04:46:35 PM »
FWIW, I have him (her?) on ignore. There's a place somewhere on the ASIF, I suppose, for bashing and berating those who refute, or just simply disagree with, your profound thoughts on how we'll all, I don't know, gather together at the base of The Tree of Souls and use a tsaheylu to tap our neuroconductive antennae into the spirit of Eywa to help save us from our self-made climate catastrophe.

But this thread probably isn't that place.

I suppose the term "open thread" can mean different things to different people. But to me it simply means this particular forum is for discussing things associated with Arctic sea ice that aren't easily categorized. This isn't where we should discuss fried chicken recipes, or association football, or stock prices--or, you know, comparative religions.

So: as many others have suggested, can we *please* move this conversation elsewhere?

You're right - figuring out a way to usefully convey and ultimately have your wealth of information widely recognized and understood such that it is used is totally not related to what you're working on here. You just want to reveal truth amongst yourselves, while complaining together that not enough people get it, I understand now.

You should just carry on doing what you've all been doing for the past umpteen years then - knowing all the details, while pining for ears that can hear you or a mouth that can properly translate towards understanding.

Keep plodding along this same old course, and find the same old results, or revolutionize the process to find new ones.

The fundamental prediction is obvious: We are in deep trouble and need to work on this ASAP.

The issue now is CONVEYING it so that everybody gets it we can choose to work on it or not, not seeking to add more percentiles to the overall probability of it happening, by way of looking for more supporting data or otherwise wasting time.

The time is now.

The rest / Re: 2017 open thread
« on: March 04, 2017, 01:38:51 PM »
The thread is fine, much of the recent content is a waste of time and energy.   Certain posts/posters can be read or ignored, as with every thread.  Most that have been reading this thread from the beginning would probably not have done what you just did.  DFTT
Another false representation.

A troll seeks discord through deceit. I seek unity through understanding. You do not believe in unity. Who is the troll?

The rest / Re: 2017 open thread
« on: March 04, 2017, 01:28:49 PM »
@all except 5to10
Don't you feel like I do, that this thread is a waste of time/energy?

Just a few personal questions

- How old are you?
- Do you have children?
- If not, do you intend to have some?

Just bare answers, w/o comments, please. Those answers seem important to understand where you speak from.

(I am 63, 3 children, 3 grandchildren)

You are never wasting your time and energy in pursuit of the truth.

I am not the messages I relate, and they are not mine to claim ownership. I am merely a vehicle for the truth to be shared.

Discussing my personal life is purposeless. Focus on the message. You will find unfaltering peace of mind in the truth therein.

The rest / Re: 2017 open thread
« on: March 04, 2017, 12:18:10 PM »
(Firstly, please do move this to a different section of the forum - it doesn't belong here!)

"Truth" and "unity" are words that send shivers up my back - the rallying cries of ayatollahs of every creed.
Ayatollahs who distort the truth into deceit towards impure causes, and present a distorted version of the true unity I speak of, which will not be an option until the fundamental truth is understood by all. This is not the same. I speak of a fundamental unity born out of love.

I have presented nothing but IRREFUTABLE truths about our situation and about our fundamental choice here. What you do with it is, well, your choice.
Unfortunately, those are the words of all the above-mentioned ayatollahs of every creed.
Thank you for a great response. I recognize the similarities, but stand by the statement that I only provided irrefutable truth and the only path to our salvation. Awareness of truth, of the fundamental moral choice in the most difficult crisis, leading to unity by way of our collective good will, which is hidden beneath our ignorance and confusion. The understanding will destroy those barriers and awaken that goodwill.

Look, 5to10, the problem is that what you have is a beautiful dream, which has been dreamed many times before, and which has never turned out to be anything other than a dream. Is it possible, in the distant future, for everyone to think in the same way? Possibly, but we're talking about a distant future; first we have to homogenise the cultures, languages and religions of the world, and I for one would be very sad to see that happen. It would also be far too late.

Correct. It is a beautiful dream which has never happened.. because there has never been a time wherein we've needed to dream it so desperately. Should events unfold that make abrupt climate change and imminent, large-scale collapse or total destruction patently obvious, unavoidable to the vast majority (not even close yet), said dream will suddenly become a possibility. It will become a necessity, indeed, to succeed in any efforts. This will be widely understood, and very quickly - it is obvious even now.

So I do believe that this dire situation, should it unfold (And it sure looks that way more and more) will be unlike any other humanity has experienced in a big way, thus our thoughts and choices will change rapidly to focus on and suit the situation. People have children. People love the natural world. People appreciate consciousness. People don't want to die. There are MANY strong motivators to work together. Combine that with the internet, we are all instantly connected. Things are instantly translated. This world is ripe for that dream to become a reality, in the not too distant future even. Through this coming awareness of our position and recognition of our fundamental choice, we will seek and find togetherness. And out of togetherness, we will seek and find awareness and truth.

Even given that, is it possible for all humans to act selflessly, and not for personal, familial or national gain, when the pressure on resources increases? No matter what your dream, I don't believe this is even close to being viable.

Again, and this is a hard one to speak about because I have no way to prove it with evidence. All I can say is "It just makes sense"... A unity this strong would no doubt be much more powerful to influence positive change as we progressed in the future beyond crises. Think of it this way... We are always progressing a little bit more towards awareness and understanding individually and collectively.. and right now we are still slowed down greatly by rampant division. Imagine the speed of our progress if it did not exist. I am proposing that though we cannot see the solutions in the context of our divided world now, that once unified behind making the positive choice, after we recognize the fundamental truth of our position, division disappears.

To weather the storm together, is to do it out of unified goodwill, labour, and optimism. How could we be expected to fall back into this fog after doing that? With the awareness we will gain... It is literally like the singularity, as someone else said. I can't even conceive the potential of a truly united, totally connected humanity that respects the natural world deeply. Problems would just start to disappear, we would be working as a well oiled machine instead of a rust bucket. This must be a very optimistic future.

What it comes down to is that you are asking a lot of very talented, energetic and intelligent people to drop what they're doing and adopt your strategy of persuading journalists of the Truth. There are some major problems with this. 

1. Few people here believe that humans have the technological ability, at present, to stop catastrophic climate change. A dream of some technology in the future doesn't help.

Again. viewing the situation in the context of an extremely divided humanity. Our overall potential greatly increases in unity backed by truth and open honest communication, in every way. There would be no more deception clogging up the flow of information, this is again nigh inconceivable.

This is all possible with the internet and modern media.

2. No-one here (I think) is persuaded that all journalists are persuadable; and unless they speak with one voice then it's pointless. Given that the media thrives on controversy, it's probably not possible to have an open media that speaks with one voice. That point is surely decades away, if it's even possible.
It will be sparked by sudden global awareness that yes, in fact, the end IS nigh. Be that 2 years from now or decades away, as you say. This will unify the focus of the media naturally, once the truth of the situation can no longer be avoided in the minds of the vast majority. Many events could lead to this awareness and the weather is predicted to be more violent and unpredictable. Unless it all comes crashing down and kills us all at once, people will be asking questions. Journalists included. This is already happening.

3. Energy spent on your project takes energy away from other things, such as monitoring Arctic ice, trying to understand it, planning for the skills needed after potential societal collapse, etc. People who are extremely good at those aspects are not necessarily good at persuading reluctant journalists that what they are reporting on is more important than their livelihoods. What you are suggesting is a waste of skills that are likely to be essential for the well-being of society when the collapse starts to kick in.
Aside from "preparing for societal collapse" (I truly believe we are headed for an amazing future beyond this present despair, that energy is spent towards the wrong cause. There is a solution in unity, we should spend energy on that) I accept much of this as true in relation to the communication issues that may arise there.

I believe some people gleaned valuable insight from my posts, or optimism, hope, positivity, and for that reason it's been worthwhile. Moreso, scientists are so rational that who better an audience to refute a hypothesis? I believe in what I say, I must subject it to scrutiny as well as use my time wisely in doing so. I believe you all can and will eventually do something with this understanding or I wouldn't be here in the first place.

4. By arguing for your dream of putting all our energy into planning for what is probably an impossible pre-emptive solution, you are taking energy away from a detailed understanding of what is happening, how it will progress, and how we can best survive in a post-overpopulation world.
I would say that creating a detailed understanding is what has been done for quite some time now, yet the situation continues to worsen, and faster as time progresses. You have the understanding of the fundamental physical situation. Now gain the understanding of the fundamental moral, spiritual situation. Some people have one or the other, few fathom both. All will understand both intimately when events unfold. Most people are moral but misguided, confused. When understanding arrives, we will unite behind our general desire to live and let live (when we aren't irrationally afraid of ethereal threats. These threats will fall to the wayside for all in comparison to the threat we will all soon see and understand together)

Telling people that they are selfish and lazy because they do not see the situation in the same way that you do, even when some of them have done an enormous amount towards reducing their carbon footprints and/or making their communities self-supporting, is arrogant and insulting. Personally, I think you are well-intentioned but misguided, and your 'solution' will set back our ability to cope with the crisis. I hope I've covered everything, because I don't have time to get sucked into this debate - I'm too busy helping the local community to become more sustainable, while attempting to earn enough to get by.
Reducing our carbon footprints and recycling is not enough. We will have to sacrifice so much more first in the name of what is right. We will have to give up almost the whole world we are used to for goodness or be a part of the destruction. Our supermarkets. Our oil addiction. Our differences. Our jobs. This is the difficulty of the fundamental choice we will all soon be faced with. We must sacrifice our wants for the needs of everything and everyone else, and ourselves.

Perhaps it is not to evoke a sense of duty in you scientists to do more, but to hope to set your mind at ease for the future and prepare you to jump at the opportunity for your efforts to culminate into beautiful fruition.

I only meant to show the power of the fundamental truth and the fundamental choice all will be faced with soon. If you take nothing else from my messages, let it be that.

I truly thank you for your response. It is rational, it is focused, it is without malicious intent. Thank you for that. I will leave you all alone now unless I'm asked to respond again or deceptive attacks on the truth persist.

Have faith for the future, it is a bright one. Most of us are good, deep down, just very confused, and thus irrational. I believe that.

The rest / Re: 2017 open thread
« on: March 04, 2017, 09:14:00 AM »
"Truth" and "unity" are words that send shivers up my back - the rallying cries of ayatollahs of every creed.
Ayatollahs who distort the truth into deceit towards impure causes, and present a distorted version of the true unity I speak of, which will not be an option until the fundamental truth is understood by all. This is not the same. I speak of a fundamental unity born out of love.

"Unitiy" can only be achieved with violence, and "truth" is a man-made construct that has little to do with reality. "Facts" are only what we make them. In our current political climate, the term "post-truth" has been bandied about, but in reality "truth" has never been anything other than the statements that best fit the belief system and emotional status of the receiver.

Unity is achieved from within our minds. There do exist irrefutable truths which are beyond the constructs of man, such as the irrefutable truth I have presented throughout this thread. Which has yet to be refuted, obviously, despite its abstract nature.

My belief system presupposes me to accept that global warming is a very large danger to our current society - but it also precludes me from accepting calls for "unity" and "truth". There are no magic solutions to the dire future that many rightly fear, but semi-religious delusional ramblings on "unity" and "truth" are never going to solve anything.

It matters not - unity is on the horizon and you will soon understand all of this, despite its "improbability". It is not magical. The unity I speak of is unlike any we have known, a force many magnitudes greater than the divided humanity we are familiar with. In fact, our arrival there is inevitable. It defies our present logic, for it has never been, and so it cannot yet be fully understood. A glimmer in the distance, it has been, that humanity has forever been drawn towards. The light grows brighter until we are fully illuminated.

I have presented nothing but IRREFUTABLE truths about our situation and about our fundamental choice here. What you do with it is, well, your choice.

The rest / Re: 2017 open thread
« on: March 04, 2017, 03:08:23 AM »
You had the privilege to choose.
You have the luxury of a first world nation to live in which supports that choice.
You are obligated by nothing.
You have the smug irrefutable certainty of rectitude appropriate for a zealot. That is the epitome of pride.

As I said, you may argue ad nauseum, but will gain no traction.

I'm sorry, did I choose that privilege?
I'm sorry, did I choose the nation I was born in?
I'm sorry, are you the master and commander of my beliefs and my personal obligations based on them?
I'm sorry, have you refuted any of my ideas or merely attacked the messenger?

I'm sorry, do you think I will allow malicious commentary lacking substance to dissuade me?

Will you add anything of value to this discussion, or continue to attack me and continue to prove yourself malicious and deceptive?

Does anything you've said here have any relation to what we're talking about? You are awfully focused on me and not the ideas.

My "privilege" has no bearing on the merit of the ideas. You hide from the truth I am presenting behind logical fallacies and personal attacks.

The rest / Re: 2017 open thread
« on: March 04, 2017, 02:44:24 AM »
You will not have unity until you have equality.

You will not have equality until human needs are addressed.

As long as human need fails to be addressed, those in need, and those who obstruct addressing it, will have little interest in any sort of metaphysical truth.

Your arguments smack of the conceit of privilege which neither feels need, nor has the experience of inequality.

Your prideful continuing insistence in repeating them is become tiresome.

More borderline ad-hominems? Have I attacked anyone here? Stop this.

Your assumptions are false. I have sacrificed a normal life and many relationships in the search for truth. I have given up almost everything and I make only enough to pay for what I need, plus a couple vices I need to give up. Between 600-800 a month CAD, to be exact, depending on how many days I work. I am content with everything I have and desire nothing more than to find truth, above all else. I am for many years now, and will continue to be, single and abstinent, not for religious purposes but out of my search for truth I have lost the desire to have a physical relationship or a traditional one for that matter, not by thinking about solitude and aiming for it, but simply as a side effect. I embrace and cherish all my relationships otherwise.

I am well aware of the causes and effects of inequality.

This "metaphysical truth" will continue to prove itself true until the majority are aware of it. The events of the day support the ideas. The blissfully ignorant public will wield their pitchforks quickly when reality finally set in, of that we can be sure. From there they will understand the options: Try everything, or give up. I am certainly not the only person realizing these obscure irrefutable truths - am I?

I'm not prideful. I'm obligated to share and defend the truth. Especially in relation to our circumstances. Since you nor anyone else can logically refute it, and continue to focus mainly on symptoms on the disease rather than the cure, as well as spread deceptive information and commentary on the truth, I feel an obligation to respond.

The rest / Re: 2017 open thread
« on: March 03, 2017, 10:39:00 PM »
^  ^   ^   ^   ^

And all that is why I miss A-Team.


Twas stuff like this drove him off.

Glad it's quaranteened here.

Jim Williams - I believe in Physics, which is slightly off from your "no Truth" but close enough for us to get along fine, I'd wager.

5to10 - You're arguing a losing battle here, and semantic philosophical argument about "Truth" and "Unity" are unlikely to get traction, and in fact highlight in part why we need robust political structures in place to deal with dissent.

It's not semantic. It is the only way forward for us. The fundamental choice and these truths will be vividly apparent to all eventually, whether you believe me or like what I'm saying here or not. I am morally obligated to share it and expose deception against it, especially given the circumstances.

Fundamental truth becomes more obvious with time, and that is already starting to become apparent here or people wouldn't be making personal changes in a (potentially futile) effort to stop it. We are becoming more aware of our situation and our individual influence.

Maybe it will take even more serious displacement and destruction for most to understand. I guess the biggest thing in the way of our full awareness is time itself, for these truths are already floating around out there and gaining traction. We ARE recognizing our influence, more and more. We ARE feeling remorseful and making changes, albeit slowly. Events to come will provide more evidence of our roles if trajectory continues.

I suppose this will all happen whether I make these efforts or not, so perhaps this is pointless indeed. As to why I'm here rather than other forums.. Because if you're reading this forum, you're already aware of much, but may feel helpless to enact impactful change. I have presented a huge pre-requisite (unity backed by optimism, clear purpose and truth) and a possible solution to it: Uniting journalism/media with the help of science towards a clear, simple purpose that humanity can stand behind - for goodness, for optimism, by raising fundamental awareness of the fundamental moral decision.

If you can't think of a way around the pre-requisite, why are you even bothering to work on the details beyond it, should you intend to use the knowledge gleaned to change things? It is all futile without tackling the issue of division, so your energy is well spent helping to figure that problem out ASAP as well. The logistics of such an endeavour will require most on the same page, surely. The solutions to all external problems are, in the end, purely internal to begin with. It is the internal that got us here, not the external. It is that which gets us somewhere else too.

The rest / Re: 2017 open thread
« on: March 03, 2017, 07:53:51 PM »
You mentioned praying earlier. I would suggest praying intently and more reading your Bible before putting you trust in any political organisation(s). Bible prophecy does not point to the outcome you may expect. (1 Thessalonians 5:3)

A couple people have pointed out the original intention of this thread and that it has derailed. I will let that be my closing comment on the matter on this thread.

I don't think I suggested praying. I'm not a devout Christian in the traditional sense at least. I accept that, as I have read and contemplated the symbolic message, all of what Jesus said in the bible seems logical and is truthful. I do not believe a bearded guy in the sky is gonna send me to burn in a literal pit of fire.

I do not actually expect the U.N. as it exists presently to do anything in the end, but I sort of had to frame it that way.

Also remember.. "death" does not have to be physical, material.. "death" (or "the locking away of the beasts for 1000 years" as Revelations proposes symbolically) of "the beast" could simply mean that a consciousness shift caused "the beast within the minds and actions of people" to be destroyed. Thus, those entities could no longer operate out of evil intent, as they do not have minds to make moral decisions with, the people that compose them do and as such the work of the entities is hinged on that.

"The Beast" cannot not exist anywhere but within each and every one of us, we give "it' power. However "it" naturally acts and speaks best through government and media.

In other words, the government/the U.N./the media, all of these entities would be forced to transform along with our consciousness. They could never exist as they are now afterwards if the majority of the cogs in the machine stopped turning in that direction. Those entities are totally reliant on how WE human beings think and operate within them. I believe only a small sect of those entities are truly "evil", thus things can (and likely will) truly change.

People here are acting as if they are separate, conscious entities. They're not. They do what we make them do. If we all (the vast majority) choose to do and believe something different, so will they have to.

We don't burn "witches" at the stake anymore, because we progressed past a distorted state of awareness that provoked fear-driven responses and ultimately, division. We aren't just going to go back to calling people witches and burning them anytime soon because we understand the truth now. There's no such thing, they burned people alive for no reason, we could never consider "burning witches" anymore because we understand the truth. Would we continue to burn the world? I don't think so. So the truth and our choices are not widely understood.

We can do this here. We can make a change. We can beat division.

The rest / Re: 2017 open thread
« on: March 03, 2017, 07:21:35 PM »
The UN does not have the influence that news-media does.

All the media talks about anymore are political leaders and the only solutions the media points to are political solutions. If they did make everyone aware of the what is happening with the climate, and the people united and protested in the streets for their leaders to find a solution, it would only go full circle to the one institution the world leaders have in common and at their disposal, the U.N..

Ahh, now we're getting somewhere, when your argument proves my point. Humanity would be united behind a clear purpose and willing to try. Now we could start at the important work. Now the U.N. could actually do something. Now scientists would be listened to. So many great things could start from here.

The rest / Re: 2017 open thread
« on: March 03, 2017, 07:19:50 PM »

"All I can say is that truth has a powerful "feedback" mechanism built in that kind of makes it spread itself as it goes until it overwhelms the bullshit."

The truth is abstract. I think? While I agree with your line of reasoning I think, coming to a unified truth is like looking for the singularity. It most likely exists, but if found, most will not likely be able to wrap their heads around it.
 For any situation there are as many truths as there are observers. Each holding that their version of the truth is the correct one. Getting an agreement between observers increases in difficulty with the increase in their number. Having a consensus  between 76 people on how anything should function is an amazing feat. Getting 7.6 billion to agree well now that's optimism. So long as there is power and profit to be made from corrupting any such truth it will be nye impossible to pull it off.

The temptation to deceive is as old as the human race,
and so is the inclination to succumb to deception,
which is credulity.
Joseph Jastrow

I really do understand all this, and I absolutely love the concept of the singularity here. That is exactly what I'm working for, a perfect description, some manner of singularity of consciousness.

Perhaps this does exist. Perhaps the key is a fundamental truth which no mind is able to avoid should it be presented.

Perhaps though, the time it takes to stop avoiding it will be too long in most, I do understand that notion as well.

I would apologize to all for "being vigorous" here if it was not out of the purest intentions. I will digress though, as my point has been well made.

I am by no means implying any of you are "bad people who aren't doing anything" - on the contrary, I think you are some of the greatest quality we have, that is why I'm here. Many influential eyes and minds are on the arctic right now.

The rest / Re: 2017 open thread
« on: March 03, 2017, 07:10:41 PM »
GrayWolf - What you are seeing in the dissent is an individual struggle with an effectively inescapable truth they had as yet not seen. If it is not, I have yet to see logical opposition. Show me some, or accept it once you recognize it.

No, the problem isn't that anyone is unwilling to consider your vision and plan.  Some see the human problem differently, but these are smart, open-minded folks here.

The problem is that the vigorous proponent of unity has been repetitive, long-winded, dogmatic, and dismissive of others.

If such proponents of unity can only sow discord, then this may portend a bad outcome for humanity.

I will certainly dismiss irrational arguments, don't you? Where are the rational arguments? And since I believe my perspective, I must of course be vigorous in defending and promoting it. So until you provide a reasonable alternative, here I will be.

Part of me would much rather be playing guitar, or video games, or skimming pointless diatribe on the internet right now, but I ain't. I have devoted myself to what I believe here and elsewhere and I am disappointed people say I'm trolling when I'm clearly not. I'm walking my talk, because I truly have not seen a rational alternative, certainly not here. I put the same weight on myself when I recognized there might be a way out, now I am aiming for it because I feel like it is right. Perhaps I should just digress here.

One more thing.. discord is often a precursor to higher understanding. I would have to say history proves this as well.

The rest / Re: 2017 open thread
« on: March 03, 2017, 07:01:26 PM »
The UN does not direct us towards an exactly clear purpose.

The main goals of the U.N. are to achieve peace and security. Averting climate disaster would fall under the security part. It is hard to focus on the security part, without assuming first that you don't have war, having achieved peace. I wouldn't assume that by the way.

The UN does not have the influence that news-media does.

Journalists are still the key. Human beings who can do something if they were to be aware of the choice. You are not exactly making a choice until you're aware you have one.

Make them aware they have a choice so that they can work together to make us aware we have a choice.

How? Just by doing what you can to spread all of these concepts. Regardless of your thoughts on how possible any of this is, it's still rational. And it still boils down to clear recognition that you are choosing either try everything we can together and find any chance there is, or submit to your selfish wants and needs and seek to ensure destruction of the living world.

I have great faith that there is a distinct, massively positive difference between a humanity that mostly recognizes that they have a decision, and our present state of affairs where very few people are aware of the decision as it exists fundamentally.

I'm disappointed that people say I'm trolling the thread, when I have proposed a simple solution to which we can all perhaps make a difference: Spread the fundamental choice. To which I might add, nobody has been able to refute. All people can say is "A united humanity isn't possible because humanity isn't united right now", that's a ludicrous argument. If they throw that out, they seek a way to avoid boiling all the information down to this fundamental choice and spreading awareness of THAT first, rather than sharing all the details of the situation (Which clearly hasn't ever worked, try something new) or any of the rest of the incoherent mess that exists in the media today.

Seems cognitive dissonance will continue to get the best of most.

The rest / Re: 2017 open thread
« on: March 03, 2017, 06:38:01 PM »
The United Nations has failed, but not by lack of effort. How can you organize something greater than it on here and expect to outdo it. First of all, if you don't work your goals through the U.N., it will not allow you to do so outside of it. Billions of dollars have been poured into it and no lack of effort. It would take a lifetime to build up any organization to come even close to it in scope and magnitude. Furthermore, it can't ever accomplish what it has been made out to be and do.

The UN does not direct us towards an exactly clear purpose and is not backed by a mostly united humanity. Sticking to fundamentals and a clear purpose rather than trying to sort out a path based on a nigh infinite set of information points is somewhat important. Together, scientists and the media and all other useful entities can achieve this clear optimistic purpose and assist in communicating the logistics in our united efforts. The only reason that doesn't happen already is because the human beings who compose those entities lack the fundamental awareness I am trying to spread or think it is impossible too.

If you can at least understand where I've been going with this.. That it is in fact possible to thrust a clear moral choice on somebody that they weren't aware they had before, and it doesn't take much effort (Even if they try to refute it for a while... cognitive dissonance is a thing). This moral choice will only exist based on their personal value systems, but those have to stand up to the fundamental truth within their own minds as well.

Certainly, there are other possible irrefutable truths that one can go with, I don't deny that. For example "I don't need to do anything because aliens will save us eventually", well I can't refute that, but it leaves me helpless to do anything. The irrefutable truth I am presenting allows us to do something: Just spread it, it has a great effect just doing that. Thrust this awareness on people. Keep it fundamental. It MIGHT be able to turn the tide for us. Unless you can think of a more viable option to START turning things around than unifying as many people and resources as we can ASAP, then just do it already!

The problem we have is that few humans have been faced with the difficult concept I am trying to explain. They lack the awareness of our individual impacts.

Truth is a powerful weapon against the instinctual, fear-driven, and selfish urges we have as individuals literally as easy as making someone aware of it.

In a way, it has a feedback effect built in. Once you realize that spreading this truth and awareness of our personal responsibility appears to be our only chance to avoid total destruction, that unifying is the only way, you kind of have to spread the truth or accept that you are part of the destruction if you don't. Thus I can already see its potential to absolutely transform our global consciousness as it slowly pervades.

What I mean is, most people must be on this page before existent entities can make any impactful change either. You can comment on the present state all you like, I keep saying those things will change as we change. I have noted what you're saying, I'm proposing the solution. You're making an effort to avoid the choice you have, within your own mind.

Again, truth makes anyone who doesn't accept it fall to the wayside in the end. Nobody believes the sun revolves around the Earth anymore. Those who fail to accept this truth that unity is the way forward will disappear in the end too.

It is so easy to have optimism when you start thinking about what I'm trying to explain.

All I can say is that truth has a powerful "feedback" mechanism built in that kind of makes it spread itself as it goes until it overwhelms the bullshit.

The rest / Re: 2017 open thread
« on: March 03, 2017, 06:16:52 PM »
GrayWolf - What you are seeing in the dissent is an individual struggle with an effectively inescapable truth they had as yet not seen. If it is not, I have yet to see logical opposition. Show me some, or accept it once you recognize it.

They are doing everything they can to refute what I'm saying within their own minds, clinging to any fading thread they can see. The truth is brutal sometimes.

I should hope the struggle it creates within them will help to understand how powerful of a motivator this fundamental truth could be towards unity if it was widespread, if we cut away the sea of information that keeps it hidden.

It is so powerful that it is not only easily maintained as irrefutable through debate, but once one accepts it they are immediately forced within themselves to make a clear decision based on its ramifications.

Thus, it really does come down to one thing: Are we really mostly good? Would we mostly choose to TRY to save the world? Are we just hateful and divisive out of fear and ignorance and confusion?

These are the things our future depends on.

The rest / Re: 2017 open thread
« on: March 03, 2017, 06:04:11 PM »
Where in the history of mankind has this been able to be before?

You nailed it.

Because of the internet, We are able to do what I am suggesting, unify. The potential is there. We are connected.

We have never had an opportunity to unify to this degree before the internet. Now we CAN try, and succeed. We just haven't made a decent effort yet.

The rest / Re: 2017 open thread
« on: March 03, 2017, 05:55:06 PM »
You must see by now that it's nigh impossible, because what I am saying is almost certainly true.

I am a Primitive Buddhist.  I believe:  No essence.  No permanence.  No perfection.

Simply by asserting that something is True you have completely lost any possible support from me and people who think like me.  I do not believe in Truth.

So you believe it's true that there is no truth? That's ironic.

Openly contradicting yourself in such a small comment is not a good way to support your argument.
I hope you get banned.
Ahh, a direct personal attack.

Out of irrational rebuttals that are easily shut down then?

Accept the truth yet, and your logically established role as a destroyer of a beautiful future we could work towards (Not an ad-hominem but also a truth, not putting all effort towards unity as an individual and so as a collective seems to lead to certain destruction based on all data. Unity seems to lead to a better future, based on simple logic), or will you just end your tirade of false dispute with this blatant attack?

The rest / Re: 2017 open thread
« on: March 03, 2017, 05:45:41 PM »
Thanks Jim... I find your commentary to be always of the highest quality as well.

Unfortunate that his statement was again easily refuted by the truth.

Still waiting on one of you 3-5 people to present some kind of rational statement in contradiction to what I'm explaining.

You'd think there would be strength in numbers here as usual, but the truth doesn't lose to the deception of the majority.

Refute it or accept it.

Yours are the ramblings of a madman.  They cannot be refuted, as they are not framed in a common belief system.  We would have to begin with the meaning of truth... who has the time.

A madman in the context of a terribly mad world, whose ideals have proven destructive failures perhaps. The truth cannot be refuted, hence why you are all, as a team (against the truth itself, not me as a human being relating it), having a real problem trying to do so in total vain.

Maybe I am the sane one.

The rest / Re: 2017 open thread
« on: March 03, 2017, 05:42:58 PM »
Thanks Jim... I find your commentary to be always of the highest quality as well.

Unfortunate that his statement was again easily refuted by the truth.

Still waiting on one of you 3-5 people to present some kind of rational statement in contradiction to what I'm explaining.

You'd think there would be strength in numbers here as usual, but the truth doesn't lose to the deception of the majority.

Refute it or accept it.

The rest / Re: 2017 open thread
« on: March 03, 2017, 05:37:07 PM »
You must see by now that it's nigh impossible, because what I am saying is almost certainly true.

I am a Primitive Buddhist.  I believe:  No essence.  No permanence.  No perfection.

Simply by asserting that something is True you have completely lost any possible support from me and people who think like me.  I do not believe in Truth.

So you believe it's true that there is no truth? That's ironic.

Openly contradicting yourself in such a small comment is not a good way to support your argument.

The rest / Re: 2017 open thread
« on: March 03, 2017, 05:30:44 PM »

As I understand your argument you're saying that if we all come together as a unity, something magical may happen, and this may save us all.

You then attack everyone with a different perspective, thereby proving not only that unity doesn't exist at present, but that anyone dividing the world into those that believe (in unity), and those that don't believe, will forever preclude a unity of thought, and that your magical moment will never occur.


This is not an eloquent point, he is merely reflecting the problem from which I have proposed a solution. The truth is the truth. There is no alternative to an irrefutable statement, so refute it or accept it. NOBODY has come close to refuting it, evident by the ease in which your statements collapse under minor scrutiny.

I would say that Terry is incorrect based on an assumption I am more than willing to make based on personal experience: The vast majority of people are moral, good, and just want to live and let live. Most, if not all hatred and fear stems from ignorance. We have overwhelming ignorance, thus we have overwhelming hatred and division. Most will want to change when they understand, much like people want to change any negative habit when they recognize its destructive influence. This is the main problem we face in starting to make impactful changes together.

Should we have overwhelming understanding of the FUNDAMENTAL truths of our predicament, that hatred and division has little to rest its laurels on anymore.

You are still just presenting symptoms of the disease as evidence that we can't cure it, not a rebuttal to what I'm proposing we do. You literally just said "We can't be united because we're divided" in different words, again avoiding the point:

Seek to create that unity, surely it is possible with understanding (We have foregone many instinctual urges riding the waves of awareness and understanding through time, thus we can surely do the same here. Those in opposition to widely understood truth fall to the wayside as history has proven), or be a destroyer.

Maybe there cannot be "total unity", however "more than unified enough to do something" seems entirely possible to me, and ANY amount of unity more than what we have at present is positive in respect to solving these problems.

The rest / Re: 2017 open thread
« on: March 03, 2017, 05:10:08 PM »
If this 'reality' is even real to begin with...

Just another way to rationalize your way out of doing something so you can continue being lazy in selfishness.


Just my way of saying that you have beat your point to death.

Well it's gotta be done when it's being responded to with something other than the truth. It's not like we're arguing over the best song of the 90's, this is the bloody end of the world we're discussing. "beating your point to death" doesn't really apply in the same way as most internet debates, time is of the essence here. I can see that mass awareness and real understanding is one of the key parts of any chance we may have. I am morally obligated to make sure the truth is known and heard, not buried by deceptive "rebuttals".

People here still trying to avoid their roles. Only way we make any progress is if more people accept their roles. More than willing to engage in discussion, and people keep trying to refute (albeit poorly), so I don't have much of a choice but to re-word what I'm saying in response, or sit here forever asking for a real rebuttal with real talking points to consider that don't just melt away with minimal effort. Nobody is presenting that in opposition of what I'm saying.

As time progresses with no real rebuttal to speak of, it becomes more difficult to avoid within your own mind: This responsibility is yours too. Do everything you can now, or live with the guilt, or reorganize your belief system so that you can accept that you are partially responsible, but it doesn't make you feel bad or try to stop it.

Surely this inspires a response like mine in many: Unfaltering truth even in the face of annoyed opposition.

That is the very start of the solution to our dilemma, if there is one at all. Time to stop lying to ourselves and each other. Hence, I respond.

The rest / Re: 2017 open thread
« on: March 03, 2017, 04:58:52 PM »
Look, I will never let anybody rationalize OUR responsibility away again unless someone explains a more rational outlook on the grand situation. Nobody has even come close yet.

You must see by now that it's nigh impossible, because what I am saying is almost certainly true.

So either admit you are a destroyer in your unwillingness to try everything to avoid the very highly probable, or provide some kind of evidence that refutes what I'm saying. Else, I see no reason why you reply other than a futile personal effort to avoid the truth and the difficult personal ramifications of recognizing it.

We are selfish, we are ignorant, we did and we are still doing this. You did this, and you are still doing this. I did this, and I am trying my best from now on to stop doing this, and I hope many others will too.

You are totally able to go down doing nothing, I see that it is the probable conclusion. It doesn't mean I will continue to march with the army of destruction upon realizing my role, just because "Who cares? We probably got no outs!"

The rest / Re: 2017 open thread
« on: March 03, 2017, 04:44:05 PM »
If this 'reality' is even real to begin with...

Just another way to rationalize your way out of doing something so you can continue being lazy in selfishness.

You are certainly here commenting and doing many other things day to day in a reality which at least appears real, with real consequences. I for one will base my ideas and decisions on the premise that "This is some kind of reality, and I'm part of it" and that my actions have an effect on it.

Saying "Well this might be a sim so it doesn't matter if i do anything" is akin to a religious ideal.

"Well God will heal my sons cancer so I won't treat him or feed him. Oh how strange, he died."

Lets work in the present circumstances with what we can be reasonably sure is "real" based on experience.

The rest / Re: 2017 open thread
« on: March 03, 2017, 04:26:24 PM »
If you cannot say for certain it is impossible, then you must say there may be a chance that we aren't seeing to literally save the world and ourselves.

The world will be just fine, and I don't see why we need "saving."  This is simply another abrupt climate change, and even Homo Sapiens has survived several so far.

Can't let that go, Jiim, having been involved in cleaning up the aftermath of societal collapse here and there. Being a reluctant father-confessor to both the victims and perpetrators of atrocities teaches one not to regard the very possible future of humanity with equanimity.

Seriously. Jim: This is now a 7.5 billion person, global, exponentially more complex civilization that was built and hinged on relative consistency in planetary phenomena. You cannot begin to propose that the situation is the same simply based on population and scarcity alone.

It is ludicrous to propose that because changes happened before (And these are nowhere near the same changes either, which is yet another deceptive allusion in Jims comment) that this monumental civilization we have built can just magically survive it when all the variables that differ in your comparison suggest that it will not, given our trajectory.

So Jim, if you aren't willing to admit that all data seems to indicate we are on a death spiral and bringing the rest of the living world into it, I suppose nobody will be able to convince you. The evidence is clear, and probabilities can be fairly assigned here.

Unless you can refute that and then come up with a rational reason as to why you think doing little to nothing gives us a better chance than doing everything you can possibly think of, you must do everything now or accept the built-in ramifications of doing nothing.

I mean you don't have to, but if you don't do everything you can, right now,.... well we've already been over what the personal ramifications of that are. You are aiding and abetting in CERTIFYING we have no chance, when a chance may exist (This is barring unseen/unknowable external forces to which we would have to wait to see anyways, a risky and irrational proposition)

SO TRY EVERYTHING, DAMMIT. Or be a destroyer in your desire to maintain a personal status quo that meets your selfish personal WANTS, not the NEEDS of yourself and everything else, such that the collective status quo will mirror that way of life and those personal values to its self-destructive end.

Try to rationalize your way out of the truth all you want. Doesn't work.

All you have left to cling to is going against everything data reports to be likely, and the likely predictions we can make from that data, also irrational. This is where the vast majority are at right now. Let's fix that so we can fix this.

The rest / Re: 2017 open thread
« on: March 03, 2017, 01:59:12 AM »
hi.. 5to10 .. little problems .. scientists waiting on peer review and the newsmedia bypass that are twatter and farcebook .. Then there is the antagonizing of the like minded .. result .. a Voice inthe Wilderness (what's left of it ) .
You need to find a different level of consciousness in which , as cause , you can effect change .. remember this is quantum world .. every sub atomic particle is waiting to do your bidding ..

It is an interesting observation that certain things I have done to my own body throughout my life are paralleled in the external world. Smoking, for example, I must sacrifice my enjoyment now and quit, it goes against life. The internal creates the external in ourselves and everyone, it appears.

If this is what you are getting at, I have thought about it for sure and thanks for reminding and affirming it.

Beyond this alternative way to look at it, which does deserve credit but is somewhat unknowable.. I still don't see your rebuttal as enough to change my thoughts on the rest. You are describing the difficulties, I recognize them for sure. I still believe it is possible. Radical change means forget everything as it works in the present, to a degree.

The rest / Re: 2017 open thread
« on: March 03, 2017, 12:15:27 AM »
I can explain it any which way you want me to. Until you are able to clearly and rationally refute the truths I am sharing, or reinterpret the personal ramifications of your awareness of these truths should you not be able to refute them. As well as the hopeful impact of an acute, collective awareness of the above. Perhaps the sense of duty this appears to awaken is what we need.

Forget the semantics. Admit that global unity is the only hopeful way forward if there is any chance at all. Admit and accept within your own mind that your unwillingness to do everything possible towards real change is tantamount to ensuring the living world will find no way out of what appears to be near total destruction. Can you?

If not, but you carry on anyways, then your values and morals are not hinged on a respect for the present living world, consciousness and a desire to preserve it or advance it, or your present and future influence on the situation according to the data which seems all but certain.

Perhaps you must become a denier to avoid it.

Perhaps you rationalize it by saying "Well, t might take longer for life to restart here if it IS impossible and our efforts make it worse". I would argue that there is already, despite the downhill spiral, a beautiful, awe-inspiring, conscious and living world here that is worth trying to save, and could be even more beautiful and awe-inspiring in the future, with a united humanity that weathers this storm.

The decision is your own, and judgement on that decision is not mine or anyone elses to make.

While I don't judge, because I understand the decision and why people take it, I can still recognize the destructive nature of that choice, and so in choosing the opposite I must seek to spread awareness such that less people choose it, now and in the future.

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