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Messages - wili

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The rest / Re: Systemic Isolation
« on: September 25, 2019, 06:28:32 PM »
I'm out of my depth here, but isn't gravity a bit different from the others...not really a 'force,' but a  'curvature of spacetime caused by the uneven distribution of mass' as wiki puts it.

Did they used to think there was a 'gravitron' particle? For some reason I remembered something like this, but when I searched, all the came up was a carnival ride by that name!  :o

Anyway, thanks for getting me to look around, because I also found the following passage in the wiki page answered a question I posed to my high school physics teacher way back in the '70s, who had no answer:

Speed of gravity

In December 2012, a research team in China announced that it had produced measurements of the phase lag of Earth tides during full and new moons which seem to prove that the speed of gravity is equal to the speed of light.[43]

This means that if the Sun suddenly disappeared, the Earth would keep orbiting it normally for 8 minutes, which is the time light takes to travel that distance. The team's findings were released in the Chinese Science Bulletin in February 2013.

The rest / Re: Good music
« on: September 25, 2019, 05:34:06 AM »
Cohen's songs used to seem rather dark to they just seem like accurate reportage on the state of things:

The rest / Re: The Trump Presidency
« on: September 25, 2019, 01:14:12 AM »
"...inflate the Trump vote..."

Can you guys really do no better than rehashing the idiotic blather that mindless tv pundits spew?

The number of ways this is different than Clinton are so myriad...I don't even know where to start.

I won't bother, since you all don't really seem interested in a serious conversation about all this.

How can people think so clearly about climate and Arctic ice, yet have such shallow (nicest word I could conjure up at the moment :) ) 'analyses' of these matters?

The rest / Re: Who should be the Democratic nominee for President in 2020?
« on: September 25, 2019, 01:04:41 AM »
Soooo, if we thought that Booker or Harris were likely to be the nominees, should we start constantly repeating the 'n' word here, because, hey, everybody should have to get used to it, since that's what at least some of Trump's followers will be using?

I still thing Bernie is more likely to win, so should I constantly refer to him as Bernie the Crazy Kike, so that we can all get inured to the slurs??

The rest / Re: The Trump Presidency
« on: September 25, 2019, 12:14:16 AM »
Ummmm, I would call it more of a constitutional duty.

Time will tell if it was a political mistake.

The rest / Re: The Trump Presidency
« on: September 24, 2019, 11:41:55 PM »
And now Pelosi has just announced that impeachment proceedings are officially initiated.

The rest / Re: The Trump Presidency
« on: September 24, 2019, 10:23:32 PM »
Yup: Rep. John Lewis just called for impeachment proceedings against Pres. Trump on the House floor (NowThis fb feed)

The rest / Re: Who should be the Democratic nominee for President in 2020?
« on: September 24, 2019, 03:44:15 AM »
Thanks for your perspective, Tom.

I do find it interesting that sed can't imagine why anyone would use anything other than the dictionary definition of 'residue,' but finds 'just' to be highly offensive, though none of its dictionary definitions are. Seems kinda...selective...

But I agree that we are now off topic and will drop it henceforth! :)

The rest / Re: Who should be the Democratic nominee for President in 2020?
« on: September 24, 2019, 01:40:05 AM »
Oh c'mon, sed. Are you really saying that if your kids happened to be the last ones in a room and someone then turned to you and said, "Well, I guess it's just the residue left in that room..." that you'd be completely cool with it?

Residue, in common parlance, is also generally something that must be disposed of and is essentially useless. Referring to humans with this term really is pretty bad. Sorry that you find yourself so tone deaf. I hope that hasn't gotten you into too much trouble in life.

Policy and solutions / Re: Tesla glory/failure
« on: September 24, 2019, 01:34:49 AM »
I have much I could say to GSY and NeilT, but for now, I'll just  quote Gretta: "How dare you!"

The rest / Re: Who should be the Democratic nominee for President in 2020?
« on: September 23, 2019, 09:41:51 PM »
sedz wrote: "I must be missing something with the Silver residue uproar"

It's at the level of connotation that most people use and understand language, most of the time.

Your definition is denotation.

And a key part even of the definition you gave is the first word: "something..."

It is relatively neutral when referring to inanimate objects. When referring to humans it is very demeaning in pretty much any context, at least that's how most native speakers of English would hear it. (And only someone who was non-native or completely tone-deaf would use it without intending some level of disrespect.)

I'm guessing you're not a native English speaker, perhaps?

The forum / Re: Forum Decorum
« on: September 22, 2019, 10:23:56 PM »
Read and learn, Grasshopper! :)

Why Does Oktoberfest Start in September?

The rest / Re: Good music
« on: September 22, 2019, 01:23:01 AM »
Apologies if this was already posted (my quick perusal didn't find it on the thread). Like some other message songs from decades ago...the messages just seems that much more poignant now:

"Oh, this world is burning fast.
Oh, this world will never last.
I don't want to lose it..."

Cat Stevens/Yusuf Islam, of course.

(First go through is sung in Latin!)

Does anyone have news about climate actions today in The Netherlands?

Consequences / Re: Prepping for Collapse
« on: September 20, 2019, 02:32:19 AM »
"milestone of verbosity"

Terry, it's not just you prove here, you, like our fearless leader, have the best words! :)

Policy and solutions / Re: Renewable Energy
« on: September 20, 2019, 02:29:55 AM »
r worte: " I can understand the issue with the usage of the name Pocahontas, a native woman kidnapped and raped by a white man (not the fairy story peddled by Disney and others). I will use "Fake Indigenous" in the future"

Thanks, but please note that she does, in fact, have some indigenous dna:

"Prime Minister enjoyed applying black and brown face multiple times in his adult life. I knew that was wrong in my youth in the 1970s and 1980s so there is no excuse."

That was exactly my reaction to this news. WTF. It's one thing for whites in the deep US South to be totally clueless about how offensive this was. But by the '70s, pretty much everyone else had figured this out.

(OK, enough OT for now. Thanks, again)

Policy and solutions / Re: Renewable Energy
« on: September 20, 2019, 12:29:49 AM »
rboyd, please avoid using Trump's racist rhetoric here. Thank you.

Science / Re: Magnitude of future warming
« on: September 19, 2019, 05:54:30 PM »
How's that been workin' for ya?

Since the 'triumph' of global capitalism some 40 years ago, general consumption and ff burning have accelerated greatly. All to the detriment of the planet and its/our future.

Individuals tend to make self-interested decisions generally based on the short term.

And of course mega-corporations' decisions tend to be even more short term, and they do everything they can to convince individuals to keep their decision making very, very short term.

To paraphrase James Lovelock: Leaving the health of the globe to capitalism is like leaving the care of a garden to goats. 

Science / Re: Magnitude of future warming
« on: September 19, 2019, 05:24:35 PM »
H wrote: "It's unimaginable..." Your ability or inability to imagine something has, of course, no bearing on whether it is true. Try to avoid common fallacies:

H wrote: " Capitalist mankind will not let it happen."


The rest / Re: Good music
« on: September 18, 2019, 06:41:37 PM »
The original said: "How does it feel when you got no herb?"

The rest / Re: Who should be the Democratic nominee for President in 2020?
« on: September 17, 2019, 03:49:56 AM »
(not very) subtly sexist

Policy and solutions / Re: Water Resource Management
« on: September 16, 2019, 02:42:12 PM »
Thanks for this.

More proof that, for some people, no amount of evidence, even 'evidence' that destroys their lives and their towns, will convince some people to discard a cherished ideology.

If devastating droughts don't change their minds, I really doubt a Blue Ocean Event will.

Policy and solutions / Re: Greta Thunberg's Atlantic crossing
« on: September 13, 2019, 01:34:46 AM »
Phil, Gorillas in the Mist is a book and then movie about Dian Fossey, another of Leakey's 'Trimates.' Jane Goodall studied chimps.

The rest / Re: Is Man the "Unnatural Animal?"
« on: September 08, 2019, 08:32:14 PM »

So, as you say, he is having some humor making fun of indigenous peoples and their cultures as well as environmentalists...yeah, those folks who are getting killed in droves by oppressive regimes worldwide for trying to defend ecosystems that pretty much everyone else acts as if they don't give a sh!t about. Talk about punching down!

Folks like Bolsonaro must get a lot of comfort and chuckles out of this kind of thing.

I think I'll take a pass on reading further from someone with such a disgusting sense of humor. Thanks. :)

The rest / Re: Is Man the "Unnatural Animal?"
« on: September 08, 2019, 04:41:19 PM »
"The lesson hammered into us is... we are borrowing from the future, so one should treat our Earth with respect, as something ultimately sacred..."

Again, clearly a lie.

No one treats the Earth as sacred, outside of some indigenous peoples perhaps.

And if he or anyone else thinks that some kind of extreme reverence for the community of life is the greatest (or even a great) threat to the world, they are deeply cracked (at least on this point), in my humble estimation.

The rest / Re: Is Man the "Unnatural Animal?"
« on: September 08, 2019, 03:42:52 AM »
"He's rejecting the ideological structure that views "Mother Nature" as a benevolent parent..."

But swallowing whole, apparently, the much more toxic and dominant 'ideological structure' that sees 'Mother Nature' (here, apparently openly embracing some kind of mythology) as simply 'red in tooth and claw.'

Yes, evolution has been punctuated every few tens of millions of years or more by a few large mass extinctions (and a number of smaller ones). But in any given set of millennia, what is most likely to happen is a gradual increase in the number and variety of species and so the robustness of life.

Humans life on this kind of time scale tens of millennia, not tens of millions of years. So in the relevant scale, 'Mother Nature' if we must use such terminology, is indeed likely to be in some kind of least it/she was until, this time, we (and specifically modern industrial consumerist civilization) came along to overturn the whole apple cart.

Zizek is a smart guy, but some seem to take his every word as some kind of gospel, which I find rather dangerous. Everyone has blind spots, and this pretty clearly and glaringly is one of his.

Arctic sea ice / Re: When will the Arctic Go Ice Free?
« on: September 07, 2019, 11:39:52 PM »
We are not measuring the same thing as we were ten or so years ago.

Then, we were mostly measuring ice. Now we are more and more measuring slush.

The rest / Re: Is Man the "Unnatural Animal?"
« on: September 05, 2019, 10:28:42 PM »

The rest / Re: Is Man the "Unnatural Animal?"
« on: September 05, 2019, 01:59:37 PM »
binntho wrote: "...annoyingly written ... and full of minor errors ..."

These are two of the main reasons I find it harder and harder to read anything intended for general audiences. :) :/

I picked up Jaynes' book at a used book store decades ago now and quickly concluded that it was garbage wrapped in psychobabble. As binntho points out, if you read any of the earliest writings, it is clear that consciousness is already well developed. And of course the first anthropologists to interact with any non-literate society have found them to be fully conscious. I do think that writing changes society (mostly because it tends, not surprisingly, to undermine oral traditions), but not in the ways Jaynes proposes. As I recall, Walter Ong is a better read, but I seem to remember some flaws there, too...been years since I looked at it.

ETA: I'd love to see those other sources you reference regarding Mureybet. And doesn't Göbekli Tepe (again, pre-agriculture) predate Çatalhöyük?

The rest / Re: The Media: Examples of Good AND Bad Journalism
« on: September 05, 2019, 05:40:45 AM »
Perhaps some GMO opponents do (though you have not presented any evidence supporting this claim, which is of course very unscientific of you! :) )

I know many people who are wary of GMO's yet understand and accept all the (best) relevant science in the matter.

Can we try to avoid the logical fallacy of false equivalence, too?

Consequences / Re: Hurricane Season 2019
« on: September 05, 2019, 05:21:58 AM »
One commentator equated it to a third grader scribbling on his report card to try to alter a grade. Again, psychiatrists are asserting that there needs to be a thorough evaluation of the POTUS's mental competence for the security of the country:

Policy and solutions / Re: Greta Thunberg's Atlantic crossing
« on: September 02, 2019, 03:37:47 AM »
Thanks for the thoughtful and informative response, Rodius.

As the saying goes, some people need to stop believing everything they think! :)

Consequences / Re: Hurricane Season 2019
« on: August 30, 2019, 08:44:22 PM »
Eric Holthaus is saying this could become a coastal flooding catastrophe, from Miami to NoCarolina

Consequences / Re: Hurricane Season 2019
« on: August 29, 2019, 08:51:14 PM »
So a direct hit on Mara Lago as cat 5 is within the realm of possibility! Awesome!

The rest / Re: Are you hoping for a global civilisational collapse?
« on: August 29, 2019, 07:39:51 PM »
"...invention of the alphabet..."

Yeah, after they lost the knowledge of writing for a few hundred years.

IOW, the Establishment Dem's are further right than most rightwing parties in most industrialized countries, and beyond!

Consequences / Re: Hurricane Season 2019
« on: August 28, 2019, 07:31:58 PM »
Soooo, it's still possible that it will be a direct hit on Mara Lago, wiping it from the face of the earth? :)

The rest / Re: Are you hoping for a global civilisational collapse?
« on: August 28, 2019, 10:53:31 AM »
Well, I guess that pretty much tells us all we need to know about where b is coming from!  :o

It's actually a pretty standard modernist view point, if not always so bluntly and honestly stated.

It's convenient how 'it's all natural' nicely wipes the entire species clean of any possible culpability!

The rest / Re: Are you hoping for a global civilisational collapse?
« on: August 28, 2019, 08:53:57 AM »
Thanks for the clarification, b.

From your phrase, "civilsation based exclusively on subsistence farming" I'm guessing your definition of 'civilization' is more what I would call merely 'culture.'

Generally, as the etymology of the word implies, 'civilization' implies a high degree of social structure, specifically including cities and the specializations they allow and foster.

If you have a more nuanced meaning of civilization you intend to use here, perhaps you could share that with us, too.

The rest / Re: Archaeology/Paleontology news
« on: August 27, 2019, 02:18:49 AM »
I thought that was some kind of subtle slam by Terry against Neven!  :o

There are many reports that many people in the Netherlands resorted to eating tulip bulbs at some point during WWII. Apparently, though, most were careful to remove the center, which seems to be the poisonous part.

Perhaps others can throw more light on the subject, since I'm a bit of a dim bulb... :)

The rest / Re: Archaeology/Paleontology news
« on: August 26, 2019, 07:26:44 PM »
Speaking of LOTR, is there any connection between these and Homo floresiensis?

Arctic sea ice / Re: Are you hoping to witness a BOE?
« on: August 26, 2019, 07:19:25 PM »
"... pesky lifeforms..."


Soooo, you agree that the temperature is self-regulating, but seem to forget that it is (primarily) CO2 that regulates the temperature, and that CO2 concentration is (or was until recently) largely regulated in the atmosphere by of those very same 'pesky lifeforms'...

Again, am I missing something here?

Science / Re: A list of missing feedbacks
« on: August 26, 2019, 07:08:25 PM »
Thanks, nan. I was wondering if you might pipe in here.

There does seem to be quite a bit of resistance to deep rethinks in most circles. The US in particular has a long history of resisting much deep philosophical thought, but that resistance now seems to be a fundamental part of global industrial consumerist culture.

I have long been anticipating that this would change as more and more thoughtful people recognized the more and more obvious fact that humans (and of course modern global industrial consumerist culture in particular) are directly bringing about a (and perhaps the largest) great mass extinction event, as well as fundamentally altering basic global systems that have been supporting life on the planet for millions of years, and more.

But I haven't seen much evidence of this, besides a few voices like yours, JimD's, and maybe Bruce's and a few others here and beyond.

In fact, as major catastrophe is pretty clearly inevitable now, any such awakening, even if it were too late to really save much of the living systems on the planet, would be at least some consolation.

We like to think that one aspect of the at least the best of our human nature is to learn from our mistakes.

We have made about the biggest mistake (or set of mistakes) that could be imagined. But I see little evidence that as a global culture we are even willing to consider learning anything very important from it.

Arctic sea ice / Re: Are you hoping to witness a BOE?
« on: August 26, 2019, 06:52:27 PM »
the Earth is not a "self-regulating and balancing system". Some people have made that claim, but empirical evidence is sadly lacking.

I agree that this approach can be overstated, and I find Peter D. Ward's 'Media Hypothesis' (riffing on Lovelock's 'Gaia Hypothesis') to be a good corrective to some of the more extreme claims of the latter. But are you really denying that there are no feedbacks that can serve to regulate systems, at least to a point? There is a whole field in Biology that studies this, so it seems a bit of a stretch to say that there is no evidence to support any such dynamic.

But perhaps I am mis-reading your position here? If so, I look forward to your always eloquent further clarification! :)

Name me one example of global civilisational collapse
Name me one example of a continent-wide civilisational collapse

You seem to be saying here that if something has not happened before, it can never happen. This is an obvious logical fallacy. For the first claim, in particular, there has not really been a global civilization till quite recently. So here I must assume that I am misinterpreting your position in some way, for which, again, I breathlessly await further illumination from your general direction!

ETA: I see some of these have been addressed--and I agree that the original Gaia Theory went a bit too far. But do really reject all of Earth Systems Science?

Sam presents many examples of collapse. There is a fairly large and growing literature on civilization collapses and their causes. I'm not sure any of them rise to the level of continental collapse, but probably there are more than one definition of these terms being assumed here. Again, further clarity on these points would be appreciated.

Science / Re: A list of missing feedbacks
« on: August 26, 2019, 06:36:58 PM »
Are there lots of examples of humans improving the well being of other plants and animals, beyond those that immediately benefit themselves?

If so, I am all in favor of improving their potential.

I see little evidence of that (beyond a few efforts to 'save' most charismatic species that humans themselves had driven to the brink of extinction, which of course I am for).

wrt to Terry's 'survival'--again, survival for what. Have we collectively really earned the right to survive?

Science / Re: A list of missing feedbacks
« on: August 26, 2019, 12:28:25 PM »
Arch wrote: "...necessity to maximize the human potential..."

Thanks for articulating what many see as the (or at least a) central purpose of modern societies.

But I think it is long past time to ask: 'human potential to do what?'

So far, mostly, human potential has been used to decimate the natural world.

I propose that we need a new central purpose, and that is to MINIMIZE human potential. Sounds radical, I know. But I would point out that the most important place to start minimizing human potential is with the most potent humans and institutions--the super-rich, the military...

If now isn't the time for a deep rethink of human priorities, when would that be?

Policy and solutions / Re: Geoengineering, another rush for money?
« on: August 23, 2019, 09:40:15 PM »
vox quoting c. muffet: "There is a really profound risk when you take something as untested, controversial, politically volatile and morally risky as geoengineering and you make it the subject of industry-driven, market-oriented standards..."

Or as Lovelock once put's like putting a goat in charge of a garden...

Not only is it usually illegal, driving on sidewalks is generally (if somewhat counter intuitively) more dangerous than driving on the road.

This is mostly because of the speed at which you are likely to enter an intersection, from a direction that drivers are only expecting slow moving pedestrians to be coming from, iirc.

Having said that, I must confess that in some circumstances I, too, sometimes bike on the sidewalk  ::)

Tom--I, for one, hope you keep posting. Many of your titles and links are quite interesting to me.

ALSR similarly started by dumping a lot of links. With some prompting, we got him to indicate what it was he found particularly interesting from each link, with sufficient (properly quoted) text included to make clear what the piece was about. I consider him to be among the most important posters on this forum now. You might look at some of this posts for some points on how to make your contributions even more valuable to us all.

Thanks ahead of time for future posts. (And yes, plagiarism is still plagiarism, whether it is intentional or not. But as a once-upon-a-time teacher of writing, I would generally be more lenient to students who were doing it by accident, which were most of them, since they were mostly sophomores still learning the basics.)

Best wishes,

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