Arctic Sea Ice : Forum

Off-topic => The rest => Topic started by: Neven on April 22, 2017, 10:03:30 PM

Title: Russia, Russia, Russia
Post by: Neven on April 22, 2017, 10:03:30 PM
This thread is for discussing every aspect of the alleged (and allegedly successful) attempts by the Russian government to influence the last American presidential elections.

Have at it.
Title: Re: Russiagate
Post by: TerryM on April 23, 2017, 12:51:00 AM
Wow
A bold move going straight to the heart of the matter.


We, the Democrats, progressives, liberals, environmentalists, or whatever we call ourselves today face a pivotal decision. Do we accept blame for the outcome of the recent election, or do we externalize it, blaming everyone but ourselves and our parties leaders?


Both positions can be defended. Many feel that externalizing blame is a healthy response when recrimination, depression, or a bad self image would result from taking full responsibility for some action.
I can't come up with a great example, and Wili doesn't like my analogies anyway. As a matter of fact it's almost a certainty that Wili's comment has affected me deeply and it's his fault that I'm unable to defend this statement properly.
Fortunately, as this wasn't my fault, it won't have a detrimental effect on my writing & I'll be able to continue with confidence.


See, piece of cake. it was all his fault.  8)


Others believe that by internalizing the blame, we can learn from it and correct the mistake. Somehow we lost an election that we should have had in the bag. Someone or something is responsible. Someone must pay.
We've been winning, and losing, elections the way we fought this one for decades. Most alive today don't remember when we ran on big government, to better help those in need. Most don't remember when a president, one of ours, sacrificed the "Southern Block", because Civil Rights was more important.
Most alive today believe that the only way to beat Republicans is to emulate their programs, their tactics, and their funding.


It's not true, but it is accepted as fact.


If Putin, or anyone outside of our party structure is responsible for our failure, then we can crush him, and drive straight to the finish line. Don't change a thing, the results will be different because we will have removed that which blocked our path.
Everyone stays on the payroll, everyone marches in place.
Life is good, the sun is shining and the birds are in full throat - until the next election.


If Putin, or Assange, or whoever, wasn't actually responsible for our demise, then we're going through the same motions, doing the same things, and expecting different results. Parties can't be crazy, political movements can't be crazy, we can't be crazy - oh shit !!! Crazy people never believe they're crazy.
Could blaming Putin for our mistakes be a sign that we're crazy?


If he's not guilty, I still don't like him, so what could it hurt to ruffle his feathers.


He's got bombs - BIG BOMBS
We let N Korea slide for years because they had small bombs, and not many of them.
And Putin not only has BIG BOMBS, he's got LOTS of BIG BOMBS
We're after Trump, not Putin. - Yea, yea, but does Putin know that? for sure?


When Trump's poll numbers were down he found a magic formula for INSTANT POPULARITY !!
All he had to do was talk tough, fire some missiles and drop the biggest conventional 16 million dollar bomb we had. Wow. what a warrior, he even spoiled his guest's dessert. What a man, where do I put my X on his ballot.


If Trump had bombed England, or Holland or Canada, they'd have sent the guys in white coats after him. Asked how we ever let such a monster into the White House.
So, if Russia, and Syria, and Afghanistan were seen as friendlies, Trump would lose his get out of jail free card.


It's up to you guys, I'm in a foreign country and therefor unable to alter your votes.
In 200+ years no foreigner was ever able to alter the outcome of one of your elections.
When Britannia ruled the sea, and the world, she couldn't change American elections.
A shame that the outcome will never again be trusted, by anyone.


Terry
Title: Re: Russiagate
Post by: Buddy on April 23, 2017, 02:44:11 AM
Wouldn't you just know it.  Someone who thinks "RussiaGate" is a fraud and a "non-event" and a waste of time.......TERRY IS THE FIRST ONE TO POST ON THE THREAD.  THAT...is a good one....I'm still chuckling...

The three most outspoken people on this site against even DOING the RussiaGate investigations are living in Canada, Austria, and Australia.  I find that fascinating as well.....

So when Trump doesn't finish his term in office, and has to resign or be impeached.....or removed otherwise.....I guess it won't be because of the RussiaGate scandal.  It will be due to all the pressure that was put on him against his anti-science policies.....or anti EPA policies....or his anti women policies.....or his anti minority policies.  Yea....THAT will be the reason he leaves office.... ;)

By the way.....I liked the Noam Chomsky video that Nevin posted.  I agree with some of the things that Noam states.  It certainly IS hypocritical for the US to get angry with others that try to involve themselves in our election.  ABSOLUTELY AGREE.  But that DOES NOT MEAN YOU LET OTHERS EFFECT YOUR OWN ELECTIONS.  It should mean:  Quit screwing with other country's elections.  It DOESN'T mean that we should be both hypocritical AND stupid (by letting others mess with our elections).

By the way....Noam has stated in an interview, that he thinks there IS a possibility that Russia DID involve themselves in our election.  Just to get that on the record.

And...that is why they are doing the investigations:  Because there are SOOOO many dots that lead in that direction.  WAY TOO MANY TO IGNORE.  I know......Ready, Aim, Fire.....instead of Fire, Ready, Aim.  Who would 'a thunk it?

And again....because our political crooks are apparently more advanced than those in Canada (and Australia).......our crooks don't admit they did it UNTIL AFTER THEY ARE FOUND GUILTY....not before.  That is why we do investigations FIRST.  Terry...please send us your crooked Canadian politicians.  That will make it much easier on us if they admit guilt right after they do their dirty deeds instead of having to do those darn investigations.




 
Title: Re: Russiagate
Post by: Archimid on April 23, 2017, 04:19:00 AM
TerryM I think your argument is naive. Putin had the Means, Motive and Opportunity to shift the world to a more favorable state and he took it. This state is highly unfavorable for most people of the WORLD, but it is favorable to Putin's expansionist desires.

Means:  Propaganda has survived all of human history and even thrived in the modern day? Because it works. It works so well that you can get groups of people to do almost anything you want. Governments use it, private organizations use it, religions use it. You name it, it works.

That's what Putin (not the Russians) used to manipulate the election. They moved illegally obtained information through dark channels in a way that Trump "advisors" would see it.

Motive: Among the policies that are highly favorable to Putin's expansionist interest are climate change denial, increased fossil fuel consumption and breaking the EU and NATO. Climate change denial gives future Russia a more favorable weather(they think) and thousands of miles of new coast because of the ice less Arctic. It also may raise average temperatures over what is today mostly frozen tundra. Increase fossil fuel consumption favors Putin personally. He just wants more money. Breaking the current world order gives him space to expand.


Opportunity: 1st Donald Trump is vulnerable to his greed. Show him the money and he will do anything. 2nd Donald Trump is a fool.  By using proxies like Michael Flynn (who was taking money from Turkey and didn't disclose it) and Carter Page (who was monitored by order of a FISA court) they introduced ideas and policy that sounded great for greedy Trump but in reality they benefit Putin's plans.

Among the policies that are highly favorable to Putin's expansionist interest are climate change denial, increased fossil fuel consumption and breaking the EU and NATO. Climate change denial gives future Russia a more favorable weather(they think) and thousands of miles of new coast because of the ice less Arctic. It also may raise average temperatures over what is today mostly frozen tundra. Increase fossil fuel consumption favors Putin personally. He just wants more money. Breaking the current world order gives him space to expand.


He had the means, motive and opportunity to set the world in a position that is much more favorable to him. What if he got caught? He knew that what is happening now would happen. The Republicans will chose the power Trump  offers them over preserving the US. Even if they don't, the US can't go to war over this. That is MAD.

So worst case scenario for Putin, Trumps realizes he is being played. But that is covered by condition 2. The man is a fool.






NEVEN:

I think the Thread is not appropriately named. Russia, the people of Russia or the land of Russia  had nothing to do with this. This was executed by a dictator who kills opposition and is expanding through the use of the military. I would call the thread Putingate. Personally I love Russians. Every single one I've met are excellent people.
Title: Re: Russiagate
Post by: oren on April 23, 2017, 06:26:48 AM
At the risk of posting though I'm not American, I agree with both previous posts,  I just need to add to Archimid's opportunity analysis the fact that the odds were similar between both sides to begin with. As the Republicans are for big business while the Democrats are supposedly for the little persons, who have been screwed repeatedly in past years even when ignoring climate change and all other "borrow from future little persons" schemes, one would naively expect the Democrats to achieve a decisive edge. They did not and thus were vulnerable to outside intervention, FBI intervention and so on.
Maybe lulling the differences between the parties is not working. Maybe some good-intentioned strongly-spoken populist like Bernie who could tear the masks from the political process is what they should have gone for. I wish they had. I wish my country had someone like that.
This is somewhat OT to this thread, but is the reason it could exist in the first place.
And yes, Putin could have done it.
Title: Re: Russiagate
Post by: Zeug Gezeugt on April 23, 2017, 10:03:11 AM
This thread should die a natural death shortly just as the RUSSIAGATE MEME has already done in the US corporate media and domestic political circus. It has served its purpose, Trump has kowtowed to the war hawks and the US has committed more international war crimes, largely applauded by the US war party Democrats and their now CRIMINALLY INSANE 'leftist progressive' base.

Congratulations to you Russophobes, you went FULL RETARD and managed to bend your dodgy real estate salesman reality TV star president back towards MAKING AMERICA GREAT AGAIN via the continued and decades long threat of UNCHALLENGED GLOBAL VIOLENCE, but I'm afraid now your services are no longer required.

I'm also afraid that history may not look kindly on the contribution of Russiagate to 21st C attempts to collectively deal with climate change. For as the late great Kirk Lazarus once said, "YOU WENT FULL RETARD, MAN. NEVER GO FULL RETARD!"
Title: Re: Russiagate
Post by: Herfried on April 23, 2017, 10:48:03 AM
Trump, likewishe some Bushes before him proves well, the real war-party are rhe criminal right wing madguys from the Rrepublicans, a danger to the US and the whole world. But congratulation to have a showman as president who has only one political program: To maximize his personal company profit by his presidency.

Yor going the way down to Cleptocrathy. So be proud.
Title: Re: Russiagate
Post by: Neven on April 23, 2017, 11:44:46 AM
Quote
NEVEN:

I think the Thread is not appropriately named. Russia, the people of Russia or the land of Russia  had nothing to do with this. This was executed by a dictator who kills opposition and is expanding through the use of the military. I would call the thread Putingate. Personally I love Russians. Every single one I've met are excellent people.

I fully agree, but this is the name of the meme that was invented by people who want us to return to the Cold War-era and try to make us believe that the only choice we have, is between group of kleptocrats A and group of kleptocrats B.
Title: Re: Russiagate
Post by: johnm33 on April 23, 2017, 01:42:50 PM
John McAfee said that if the Russians did affect the election then the NSA would have chapter and verse, and no problem showing proof, unless they were astonishingly incompetent. Since the USA only intereferes in those countries elections where they have an embassy you'd think they would be a little ahead of the curve in how to protect themselves from external influence. How was this interference manifest? propaganda? vote rigging? disenfranchisement?
Numerous american commentators JMG and Ian Welsh among them were talking about the extensive grassroots support of Trump, evidenced by posters all over some of the impoverished districts they know, which somehow pollsters were calling for the democrats. From a distance it looks like the democrat party machine believed it's own b/s and worse still does, unable to credit the fact that the constituency they thought they owned woke up to the fact of their betrayal. I know blame the Russians.
Title: Re: Russiagate
Post by: Archimid on April 23, 2017, 02:22:06 PM
I am not a democrat, liberal or progressive. I believe in small government, gun rights and personal freedom.  I also did not favor Clinton for the election. She voted for the Iraq war and the patriot act. In my book that can not be forgiven.

SO to all of you trying to paint me as a sore loser, sorry your argument is way off. As a matter of fact I knew Trump was going to win the elections as soon as he announced his candidacy, regardless of outside help. We had a black president.  That hurt many xenophobes deeply and drove their fear through the roof. Trump was the natural reaction.

No. Putingate is not about elections anymore. It is about policies. Donald Trump policies are highly influenced by the best interests of Putin  and they work against the best interest of the US and in the case of climate change denial, all citizens of the world.
Title: Re: Russiagate
Post by: Archimid on April 23, 2017, 02:30:45 PM
Neven, I understand the reason for your title and it is indeed the best title since that is the coined term. I just mention that because it is important to note that our enemy is not the people of Russia, but the dictator in charge of Russia, who has expansionist intentions, who suppresses dissent in his own country and is attempting gaslight the world.
Title: Re: Russiagate
Post by: prokaryotes on April 23, 2017, 02:32:03 PM
While i think it is important to point out flaws in general, regarding everything elections, my impression is that the media has put too much emphasis when discussing Russia's alleged involvement. It appears that this is especially a trust issue with voter base, if you have many from the left political spectrum (Jimmy Dore, Chomsky among many others), and independent security analysts pointing out flaws with that argument. Basically when it comes to digital transmission (who done it, who accessed etc etc), everything can be faked.

On the bottom line, votes, elections, should only be done on paper ballots.   

On the other hand political arguments would be much stronger when you would focus on Trump's business ties and political actions involving Russia.
Title: Re: Russiagate
Post by: Jim Pettit on April 23, 2017, 02:51:01 PM
We, the Democrats, progressives, liberals, environmentalists, or whatever we call ourselves today face a pivotal decision. Do we accept blame for the outcome of the recent election, or do we externalize it, blaming everyone but ourselves and our parties leaders?

Since the real world is seldom so binary, how about a third and far more productive option?

How about the Democratic Party--and all progressives--take a deep and honest inventory of who we are and what we are, and make the many obvious and necessary changes to becoming better? How about we toss out the old thought patterns, jettison the old methods, get rid of the stale party leaders, toss overboard the Blue Dogs and the wobbly-kneed Republican-wannabe Third Way types? How about we scour our ranks of great individuals, train them to lead, and start running them for office? How about we hold our party's leader's feet to the fire when they fail to provide sufficient support for solid progressive candidates in winnable races? How about we resist and protest the Right's every bigoted or anti-science or un-American move? How about we call out Trump's every indefensible action? How about we hold the media accountable? How about we stop running from the labels "liberal" and "progressive", and instead embrace them and let people know that many of the good things they have in life are courtesy of the Left, things which the Right wants to take away? How about we take all those olive branches and peace offerings Obama gave to the GOP in the spirit of "compromise" and burn them in a huge bonfire of "go to hell"?

We're doing all that. All of that, and more. I'm not saying we're there--we're nowhere close--but we're making great progress in many areas.

But alongside--and NOT instead of--all that, how about we also at the same time look at the number of unignorable external factors that led to our November losses so we can avoid repeating them? Realizing just how badly Comey's letter hurt Clinton's numbers doesn't mean we're "blaming everyone but ourselves and our parties leaders". Rooting out possibly treasonous actions by US citizens isn't "blaming everyone but ourselves and our parties leaders". Investigating just how profoundly agents of a hostile foreign entity were able to subvert our democratic process is in no way equal to "blaming everyone but ourselves and our parties leaders." Calling out the New York Times for its months of misleading and breathless and baseless anti-Clinton Emails! articles while treating the entertaining and quotable talk show celebrity running for President as, well, just an entertaining and quotable talk show celebrity isn't even close to "blaming everyone but ourselves and our parties leaders." Fighting widespread GOP-led voter suppression efforts isn't "blaming everyone but ourselves and our parties leaders." Doing something about runaway GOP gerrymandering isn't anywhere in the same ballpark as "blaming everyone but ourselves and our parties leaders." Noting the modern inadequacies of the Electoral College, a system that gives far more power to a voter from, say, Wyoming than it does one from California or New York isn't "blaming everyone but ourselves and our parties leaders.".

It just isn't.

I'm not sure where or how the lazy meme started that says we on the Left can't walk and chew gum at the same time, but it needs to stop. We have the greatest minds. We have the greatest humanitarians. We have the creators, the inventors, the scientists, the artists, the honest and inquiring minds, the compassionate and caring and nurturing people. So we can look at our myriad of systemic party problems and do something about them. But we can also look at external factors and try to do something about them, too.

...I knew Trump was going to win the elections as soon as he announced his candidacy, regardless of outside help. We had a black president.  That hurt many xenophobes deeply and drove their fear through the roof. Trump was the natural reaction.

Sad but true; racism was indeed a large factor in the number of votes Trump received. So was misogyny. We have to work on that. Not for the future of the Democratic Party, but for the future of democracy itself.
Title: Re: Russiagate
Post by: prokaryotes on April 23, 2017, 02:55:44 PM
How about we stop running from the labels "liberal" and "progressive", and instead embrace them and let people know that many of the good things they have in life are courtesy of the Left, things which the Right wants to take away?
Or stop dividing in terms of the left and right entirely, and just focus on science based policy :)

! No longer available (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x507ZlDoc-Y#)
Title: Re: Russiagate
Post by: Archimid on April 23, 2017, 03:03:31 PM
Quote
Or stop dividing in terms of the left and right entirely, and just focus on science based policy

+1


Can you imagine a world where policy is based on the best science and policy changes to meet new data?  Too bad we are prisoners of the lawyers and their cognitive dissonance based system.
Title: Re: Russiagate
Post by: prokaryotes on April 23, 2017, 03:07:36 PM
Quote
Or stop dividing in terms of the left and right entirely, and just focus on science based policy

+1


Can you imagine a world where policy is based on the best science and policy changes to meet new data?  Too bad we are prisoners of the lawyers and their cognitive dissonance based system.
I would think that is the way to go, because it eliminates the noise from the facts. The evolution of politics, our future .... how long will it take? It would also possibly mean the best possible environment for prosperity.
Title: Re: Russiagate
Post by: Buddy on April 23, 2017, 03:42:08 PM
Sometime shortly after May 2nd....Sally Yates will be testifying in PUBLIC in front of the House Intelligence Committee meeting.  As well....former CIA Director John Brennan and James Clapper, the former director of national intelligence will also be testifying.

http://www.nbcnews.com/card/former-acting-ag-sally-yates-testify-publicly-russia-probe-n749481 (http://www.nbcnews.com/card/former-acting-ag-sally-yates-testify-publicly-russia-probe-n749481)

Sally Yates had warned the White House in January about Michael Flynn not being accurate with his comments about his meetings with the Russian ambassador.  I believe that VP Pence had to be aware of those comments from Sally Yates.  And yet....it took Trump almost 3 full weeks to fire Flynn.

This is going to be interesting testimony for sure...... 
Title: Re: Russiagate
Post by: Buddy on April 23, 2017, 03:57:08 PM
Keep in mind that MOST of the issues surrounding Trump....are related to RussiaGate, if only indirectly.  They are RELATED....because they all affect Donnie's approval rating....and THAT is what will, along with the actual evidence.....take Donnie down eventually.  Because if his approval ratings sink into the 20's.....people in the House and Senate take notice.

So...when Donnie is an absolute idiot....and "congratulates" someone for getting the purple heart, instead of thanking him for his sacrifice and his service......THAT effects RussiaGate.

When Donnie gets SLAMMED for his idiotic policies regarding the EPA or global warming....THAT effects RussiaGate.

When Donnie is a slob to his wife.......THAT effects RussiaGate.

Donnie is going to continue to make mistake after mistake over the coming weeks and months.  And they will ALL effect RussiaGate.  And in return.....RussiaGate will also effect many of those other issues.  It is a two way street with global warming or the EPA for example.

The continued disclosures in RussiaGate are going to make many of the people concerned about the EPA or climate change......EVEN MORE CONCERNED and MORE DETERMINED TO ACT.  So this is NOT a one way street.

The process continues......



Title: Re: Russiagate
Post by: prokaryotes on April 23, 2017, 04:12:26 PM
When Donnie is a slob to his wife.......THAT effects RussiaGate
The best arguments are those made based on the major issues, if you write a story about how he leaves a plane without his woman, then this is interference, just not really news. However, people take notice of such subtle details, some things do not have to be communicated. Focus on the major issues, such as a climate denier who sued EPA, leads it now, and what he does, what he said - threatening clean air and water, and climate disruption. Now, you get attention from the average Joe. If you focus too much on the details,  or too vague claims, small slips, you lose credibility, or let's say you over bombard the attention spans with small stuff. Focus on the big picture.
Title: Re: Russiagate
Post by: AbruptSLR on April 23, 2017, 05:05:26 PM
Quote
Or stop dividing in terms of the left and right entirely, and just focus on science based policy

+1


Can you imagine a world where policy is based on the best science and policy changes to meet new data?  Too bad we are prisoners of the lawyers and their cognitive dissonance based system.

I would think that is the way to go, because it eliminates the noise from the facts. The evolution of politics, our future .... how long will it take? It would also possibly mean the best possible environment for prosperity.

You might want to take a quick look at the linked Wikipedia article entitled: "Technocracy":

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Technocracy

Extract: "Technocracy is a system of governance where decision-makers are selected on the basis of technological knowledge. Scientists, engineers, technologists, or experts in any field, would compose the governing body, instead of elected representatives. Leadership skills would be selected on the basis of specialized knowledge and performance, rather than parliamentary skills. Technocracy in that sense of the word (an entire government run as a technical or engineering problem) is mostly hypothetical. In another commonly used sense, technocracy is any portion of a bureaucracy that is run by technologists in technically and analytically sound ways.

The term technocracy was originally used to advocate the application of the scientific method to solving social problems. In such a system, the role of money, economic values, and morals could be eliminated altogether. Concern would be given to sustainability within the resource base, instead of monetary profitability, so as to ensure continued operation of all social-industrial functions. Some uses of the word refer to a form of meritocracy, where the ablest are in charge, ostensibly without the influence of special interest groups. The word technocratic has been used to describe governments that include non-elected professionals at a ministerial level."


Also see the following linked Wikipedia article entitled: "Technocracy movement"

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Technocracy_movement

Extract: "In a publication from 1938 Technocracy Inc. the main organization made the following statement in defining their proposal.

'Technocracy is the science of social engineering, the scientific operation of the entire social mechanism to produce and distribute goods and services to the entire population of this continent. For the first time in human history it will be done as a scientific, technical, engineering problem. There will be no place for Politics or Politicians, Finance or Financiers, Rackets or Racketeers. Technocracy states that this method of operating the social mechanism of the North American Continent is now mandatory because we have passed from a state of actual scarcity into the present status of potential abundance in which we are now held to an artificial scarcity forced upon us in order to continue a Price System which can distribute goods only by means of a medium of exchange. Technocracy states that price and abundance are incompatible; the greater the abundance the smaller the price. In a real abundance there can be no price at all. Only by abandoning the interfering price control and substituting a scientific method of production and distribution can an abundance be achieved. Technocracy will distribute by means of a certificate of distribution available to every citizen from birth to death. The Technate will encompass the entire American Continent from Panama to the North Pole because the natural resources and the natural boundary of this area make it an independent, self-sustaining geographical unit.'"
Title: Re: Russiagate
Post by: prokaryotes on April 23, 2017, 05:27:21 PM
...
...
If you ever want to publish your thoughts to a wider audience, let me know.
Title: Re: Russiagate
Post by: AbruptSLR on April 23, 2017, 07:45:48 PM
...
...
If you ever want to publish your thoughts to a wider audience, let me know.

prokaryotes,

Over the next month, or two, I will endeavor to put some posts in the "Adapting to the Anthropocene" thread related my thought of how the Technocracy movement could be updated to function in the coming 4th Industrial Revolution (including with a functioning 'quantum Internet' beginning circa 2030); which may be able to take sufficient root to partially survive the coming socio-economic collapse circa 2050 to 2060.  You can decide whether you like what I post there, or not.

Best,
ASLR
Title: Re: Russiagate
Post by: Jim Pettit on April 23, 2017, 08:56:52 PM
Or stop dividing in terms of the left and right entirely, and just focus on science based policy :)

If the left and the right were separated by small matters of ideology, minor differences in policies and opinions, I'd agree that such an idea might work. The problem is, of course, that the two sides are very divided at the moment. One side believes in and supports science and science-based policies; the other side belittles scientists and dismisses science. One side believes that the planet belongs to all of us and should be treated as such; the other side believes profit should be the primary driver behind anything and everything, with those who make the most profit setting the rules. One side believes that this nation is better when people with different ethnic and religious backgrounds are added to the mix; the other side fears anyone who isn't white and Christian. One side believes America functions best when wealth distribution isn't quite so lopsided; the other side's every policy is based on the idea that poor people have too much money and rich people don't have enough.

Those are some wide and massive chasms, and the illustrate just how very far apart the two sides are. Clearly focusing on science-based policies will help bridge those chasms. But we are, unfortunately, a long way from there.
Title: Re: Russiagate
Post by: Martin Gisser on April 23, 2017, 09:30:43 PM
this is the name of the meme that was invented by people who want us to return to the Cold War-era and try to make us believe that the only choice we have, is between group of kleptocrats A and group of kleptocrats B.
The thing is about kleptocrats A and kleptocrats B joining forces. Folks were voting for the worst possible scenario for them personally and for the planet. Trump's election is paradigmatic case of the suigenocidal tendencies growing stronger in the Late Homo S Sapiens who refuses upright walk of the brain. The madness has now become serious madness. Who will win this "information" war over the future of mankind and planet? Yes, war!...

And Putin's internet trolls and bots were of great help. I've seen them work. I have seen American Facebook friends (acquired a few to watch the election) swallow and spread the most insane propaganda. Leftists preferring Donald over Hillary, in mindblowing anti-reasoning and false equivalencies I thought impossible beyond age 5y. Did you know Hillary attended a cannibalistic dinner? Lock her up! Or her child porn business? Lock her up! ...
Before the wørd "fake news" came up and others took note I already called Facebook a stupidity amplifier.

Putin had easy play with manipulating the all-American stupid.  Not just Putin, of course. Bannon, Flynn, and many others were also hard working in producing this shit storm, plus a few bright Macedonian kids who made Google ad money by canalizing the shit flow onto the American tables. Remember Trump presenting Russian bullshit at a rally, before Sputnik news deleted it? That is either clinical stupidity or collusion if not treason. But who cared? This is not a story manufactured by the evil "deep state". Nope, it happened in full public view, like other highly suspicious things. No one can say "the Russians did it". Nope, it was the stupidified U.S. voter and media, after decades of Republican mental inbreeding. I thought GWB was the epitome of Reaganist stupidification. I was wrong...

This is one side of the Russiagate coin. The other side is the dark money connections between Trump and the Russian kleptocracy. This may be just business risk, since real estate is often used for money laundering - and Trump won't get money from U.S. banks anymore after too many bankruptcies. (The last Western loan he got from Deutsche Bank, quite a smelly deal...) I recall a series of Financial Times reports on this underground connections. Seemed not to be made up by the CIA. Hmmm, anyone heard of Cyprus? Who was this Trumpist kleptocrat in this Russian money laundering hub?
Title: Re: Russiagate
Post by: TerryM on April 24, 2017, 12:14:10 AM
Martin


Appreciate the thoughts you express above.


The 10s or 100's of millions of dollars that Ukrainian politicians gave to Clinton's charity, just as they were extracting loans from the IMF, gave me pause.
Neither side can claim freedom from the kleptocratic scum grasping for favors apre the contest. Since Hillary outspent the Trumpster by some multiple I assume she scraped a little lower, but that's conjection.


I see Reagan, Bush the elder, and Bush the younger, as a downward progression in scholarship, intellect, and morality. Trump surely represents a base level beneath which it will be difficult to burrow.


The task we face is how to minimize the damage Trump and his Republicans can wreak, while hopefully hobbling him in 2018, then replacing him in 2020.


War is the most immediate, immanent danger. We need to lead our feckless leader back from the precipice he might well toss us all over.
Applauding his innately pugnacious nature will not help. Demonizing other world leaders simply highlights targets for his aggressions. We don't need a warrior king.


The next thing we need to do is to popularize the EPA and the wonderful work it has been doing. Overcoming decades of misinformation is no small task, but just about every American has benefited from cleaner water, clearer skies, even rivers that no longer catch fire.
This is a battle that can be won, and fighting against it can, and has brought world leaders down. Look no further afield than over your northern border for confirmation.
This is also a battle that can be fought in small discreet increments. A city that doesn't appreciate smog or haze. A county that takes pride in it's riverscape. A state that won't go back to acidic lakes or stinking beaches. These can become beacons of support for the EPA and centers of discontent to the present administration.


NASA is another weak card in Trump's hand. He wants to cut the budget & have them aim only outward, away from the earth.
Americans have rallied around NASA since Sputnik graced our skies. We won't be number two - again. The Big Blue Marble captured peoples imagination across all demographics. That was NASA looking back at the world, just what our leader wants to eliminate.
Google Earth is ubiquitous and a prime example of NASA looking back.
Ronald Reagan, then GHW Bush founded and funded NASA's Earth Science Research Program. Surely these forward thinking statesmen were cognizant of the benefits that would accrue? Surely no cowboy would allow bean counters to divert funds from this Republican program that "The Great Communicator" spoke of so highly?


I'm barely skimming the surface for battles that we can, and must, fight and win.


If voters don't get the big picture then we focus on the local. If voters demand change, we propose changes that will help them, not changes that bring back smoke filled skies and water faucets that double as an ignition source.
People are not stupid. They were fed up with more promises and less action. Point to a clear stream, a clean beach or a lush forest. We did that. We don't want to take their jobs, we want them building out a better grid, installing solar panels, working in factories that export American EVs to the world.


Back on topic:
As Jim points out we are capable of multitasking. But there are finite assets at our disposal, finite minutes of broadcast time, and frankly a finite limit to the number of arguments that the average voter can follow at one time.
Why waste any of this on a possibly quixotic attempt at impeaching the Republican Trump, in a Republican House, under rules parsed by a Republican Supreme Court. If we win we achieve a Pence Presidency, a person who defines himself as "A Christian, a Conservative and a Republican, in that order." His background as a conservative talk show host on the AM dial does little to recommend him.


If you can't convince me that Trump should be impeached for his interactions with Putin, what chance do you have of convincing a room full of Republicans, many of whom were elected on his coattails?


Terry
Title: Re: Russiagate
Post by: Martin Gisser on April 24, 2017, 01:07:16 AM
The 10s or 100's of millions of dollars that Ukrainian politicians gave to Clinton's charity, just as they were extracting loans from the IMF, gave me pause.
I'm sorry, Terry, but this is one of those amazingly st.p.d false equivalencies I learned to hate last year. The Clinton foundation has a better rating than the Red Cross.
Title: Re: Russiagate
Post by: TerryM on April 24, 2017, 01:36:12 AM
The 10s or 100's of millions of dollars that Ukrainian politicians gave to Clinton's charity, just as they were extracting loans from the IMF, gave me pause.
I'm sorry, Terry, but this is one of those amazingly st.p.d false equivalencies I learned to hate last year. The Clinton foundation has a better rating than the Red Cross.
Sorry, but I didn't think I'd said anything nasty about The Clinton Foundation's work.
Just that the kleptocratic thugs who marched under Nazi banners were sending her millions that they'd skimmed from Ukraine, while crying poor mouth as they raked in the "donations" that the IMF was doling out. I don't think anyone believes these loans will be paid off, and it's not beyond the realm of possibility that Ukraine will soon be in need of The Clinton Foundation's services. should these thieves remain in power for much longer.


I'm not aware of any equivalency.


Terry
Title: Re: Russiagate
Post by: Martin Gisser on April 24, 2017, 01:54:25 AM
Terry, here is what irked me:

Trump campaign manager Paul Manafort, August 2016:
Quote
"My work in Ukraine ceased following the country's parliamentary elections in October 2014. ... However, the Times does fail to disclose the fact that the Clinton Foundation has taken (and may still take) payments in exchange for favors from Hillary Clinton while serving as the Secretary of State. This is not discussed despite the overwhelming evidence in emails that Hillary Clinton attempted to cover up,"
Source: http://edition.cnn.com/2016/08/15/politics/clinton-slams-trump-over-manafort-report/ (http://edition.cnn.com/2016/08/15/politics/clinton-slams-trump-over-manafort-report/)

N.B.: He worked for Viktor Yanukovych.
Title: Re: Russiagate
Post by: TerryM on April 24, 2017, 03:08:00 AM
Martin
I've never been able to understand why so many foreign leaders call on Washington insiders to manage their campaigns.
Watched a documentary once where James Carville was hired by some African ruler to assure his reelection. As I recall, the election was won, but rioting broke out the next day & the peoples,(manipulated) choice had to flee for his life.


"You can't fool all the people all the time", may well be true, but apparently you can sometimes fool enough of the people long enough to win an election.  ???


Terry
Title: Re: Russiagate
Post by: mati on April 24, 2017, 04:11:10 AM
nice moving the goal posts
Title: Re: Russiagate
Post by: Buddy on April 24, 2017, 01:00:39 PM
RussiaGate may get a "respite" before the next round of fireworks begins.....although, anything can break at any time.

Remember...it took 19 months until Tricky Dick was pushed out of office (from the beginning of his second term).  And it took the cumulative effect of several things...not JUST the Watergate break-in, to finally force him out.  And the country needed the polls to be VERY NEGATIVE so that Congressmen and Senators were worried about their own hides....which is the most important thing that most of them are concerned about.

That is why all the issues surrounding Donnie are important....both big and small.  It's the  CUMULATIVE EFFECT over months and months that will bring his poll numbers down....and force some of the Republicans to throw in the towel.

So while some may poo poo seemingly "small" things such as Donnie being a slob to his wife .....I wouldn't be too quick to dismiss those types of things.  Without the effect of EVERYTHING....Donnie would still likely stay in office.

In two weeks.....RussiaGate will get a LARGE injection of energy, as the public part of this play comes to the forefront:  The public questioning of some of the major players begins in early May.  THAT....is when more of the public will become interested in what is playing out in Washington. 

In the meantime.....BOTH "large stuff" and "small stuff".....will continue to wear on Donnie.  Just like a fight in the ring....it is not only the "haymaker" that is important....it is the continual bombardment of jabs to the head....one after the other....that will continue to soften up Donnie Boy until he is forced out.

This week.....the main thing on his plate is getting the government funded.  And it looks like he is in his old gambling mode.  He wants to get a "win" at any price....and it looks like he may gamble that the Dem's can be bought off on Obamacare in return for ponying up money for the wall.  This one will fascinating to watch.  I'm not so sure the Dem's will cave on this.   We will find out if Donnie loses this bluff by Friday.  Will the Dem's cave?  If they don't....will Donnie cave and pass a funding bill WITHOUT funds for the wall?  If he DOESN'T get funding now....it is going to be harder and harder as time goes by, and as Donnie continues to lose credibility.

Donnie is STILL trying to "sell" the notion that "Mexico will EVENTUALLY" pay for the wall.  If I am the Democrat's....I call his bluff....and tell him we'll build the wall WHEN MEXICO PAYS FOR IT LIKE HE PROMISED....AND NOT UNTIL

Pressure causes people to make bad decisions.....what bad decisions is Donnie going to make THIS WEEK?

 
Title: Re: Russiagate
Post by: Buddy on April 24, 2017, 01:29:51 PM
Donnie's communication mouthpiece continues to come under fire:

1)  Who knew.....Sean is slime as well....I'm absolute gobsmacked ;) :  http://www.nydailynews.com/entertainment/tv/ex-fox-news-contributor-accuses-sean-hannity-sexual-harassment-article-1.3093058?cid=bitly (http://www.nydailynews.com/entertainment/tv/ex-fox-news-contributor-accuses-sean-hannity-sexual-harassment-article-1.3093058?cid=bitly)

2)  Alyson Camerota.....more of the same, FOX is a cesspool of bad behavior, not only on the sex front....but Roger Ailes was always trying to FORCE the "conservative narrative" on their talking heads:
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/alisyn-camerota-roger-ailes_us_58fcca0fe4b00fa7de1516c1?ncid=inblnkushpmg00000009 (http://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/alisyn-camerota-roger-ailes_us_58fcca0fe4b00fa7de1516c1?ncid=inblnkushpmg00000009)

As I noted a few months ago....Donnie would continue to use FOX News more and more.  And now....his "communications mouthpiece" is coming under fire.  Not JUST on the "sexual exploit" angle....but also from the JOURNALISTIC VIEW.  Not a surprise to me...but Ailes was always trying to force his talking heads to push the "conservative narrative" (whatever the topic of the day was for Roger).  In other words....taking journalism out.....and replacing it with a lobbyists point of view.

This is also bad news for Trump and RussiaGate.  Remember....he needs FOX to be pushing FOR HIM and to "poo poo" RussiaGate.  They have done so until now.  Will they continue to downplay RussiaGate as it expands and deepens?  Or will they actually find journalistic chops?  Hint....don't hold your breath.  But what we may be seeing.....is at least an "intermediate term" pullback in the popularity of FOX News as both (1) RussiaGate, and (2) global warming......continue to play a larger and larger part of peoples everyday lives over the next year or two.

FOX now finds itself DEEPLY IMBEDED on the wrong side of BOTH issues.  As I have noted before.....these TWO ISSUES continue to move towards each other.....each one reinforcing the other.  And FOX has missed both of them....


Title: Re: Russiagate
Post by: Buddy on April 25, 2017, 02:37:12 PM
Here are some things to watch over the next month or so.  The next month is setting up to be pretty important....with the timing of several events coming together:

1)  RussiaGate public hearings look to be starting on May 2nd by the House committee (hopefully).  Sally Yates is scheduled to testify sometime AFTER May 2nd.

2)  The OPEC (plus Russia) oil cutback is due to expire at the end of June....and a possible 6 month extension of that deal would likely be made (or not made) over the next month.  I will be watching oil prices CLOSELY over the coming weeks.....as well as inventory levels.  If inventory levels don't come down, that would be a very negative sign for the price of oil.

3)  Korea standoff continues.....and a ramp up continues.  All 50 senators are to be briefed TOMMORROW at the White House.

4)  Democratic senators are getting impatient with the level of activity by the Senate committee on Russia election interference (as well they should).

5) At the end of this week......the US needs to agree on legislation to fund government operations or face a shut down.  Looks like Donnie as decided it best to "fold" this hand....and he has backed down on his prior insistence of including a down payment on the "border wall" (you know....the one that Mexico ISN'T going to pay for).  Wise move Donnie....

6)  French election will be held less than 2 weeks from now.  The outcome could have SIGNIFICANT ramifications not only in Europe...but also in the states.  A Le Pen win would give Donnie a definite boost.....a Le Pen loss (to Macron) would suck a little air out of Donnies hot air balloon.  Note....Russia's banks have bankrolled Le Pen (literally....French banks wouldn't loan her money, so Russia's banks stepped in).

ALL of these events will effect the others......if only to a small degree.  In my mind....I will continue to watch the Korean events and watch Donnie's poll numbers.  He KNOWS that he can't have his poll numbers "tank" into sub 30 levels (there is a "tipping point"....whether it is 30 or 25 or some other number...is a "guesstimate"....but there is a point at which the senators and members of the house WILL BAIL on him).  When the RussiaGate investigation hits the airwaves in early May....the spotlight will turn back to that unless something else (like Korea) takes it away.

   


   
Title: Re: Russiagate
Post by: Buddy on April 25, 2017, 06:32:45 PM
Looks like Sally Yates and James Clapper are going to testify before the House committee on May 8th now.

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/donald-trump-russia-2016-election-investigation-sally-yates-james-clapper-a7701726.html (http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/donald-trump-russia-2016-election-investigation-sally-yates-james-clapper-a7701726.html)

As well.....the White House is again playing defense.  They are not releasing some documents related to Michael Flynn to the House committee investigating Russia.  Donnie must have read his Watergate history...... ;)

http://dailyjournalonline.com/news/national/govt-and-politics/cummings-classified-flynn-docs-troubling/html_2a1800f7-becf-5e8d-8ca2-8e2414acfef2.html (http://dailyjournalonline.com/news/national/govt-and-politics/cummings-classified-flynn-docs-troubling/html_2a1800f7-becf-5e8d-8ca2-8e2414acfef2.html)
Title: Re: Russiagate
Post by: Buddy on April 26, 2017, 03:00:18 PM
One "sideshow" I am also keeping my eyes on RELATED TO RUSSIAGATE.....is whether Melania and her son will be moving down to DC from New York City.

If things really start to turn "nasty" on RussiaGate.....I might expect that Melania and son may NOT move down to DC.  But I have to believe that would ONLY happen if RussiaGate starts to "blow up" even further than it is now.  Why would you move down if (a) things are REALLY going to get nasty, and (b) in a worst case....why move down to DC if there is a reasonable likelihood the move will be less than a year. ;)

Just something to think about........
Title: Re: Russiagate
Post by: Buddy on April 26, 2017, 07:32:11 PM
Below is the daily Gallup Poll.  Approval down to 39%.....Disapproval up to 56%.

As I noted before....I expect his anemic "bounce" to be over....and it is LIKELY we are heading towards "higher highs" in Disapproval....and "lower lows" in Approval.  The "spread" is now 17% between approval and disapproval.

If the bits and pieces I have heard about his tax reform is anything close....it is NOT going to be accepted by the Dems.

For instance.....it would tax the net income from "partnerships and S Corporations" (taxed like a partnership) at a MAX RATE of 15%.  Currently.....the "pass through income" from a partnership or S corp is taxed at the rate of the individual receiving that net income....and their max rate is now just under 40% at the federal level.  Doctors, attorneys, wall streeters.....will LOVE THIS.  This is a BIG GIFT for the wealthy.

If you look at the graph below.....I've added the "legs" (disapproval legs in red....approval legs in blue).  The last legs are ONLY a "guesstimate".....of course we don't know how LONG this current down leg in approval (up leg in disapproval)  will last, nor do we know how far they will go.

We do know that the week of May 8th may not be a good week for Donnie.....so some worsening in the polls could certainly be backed up by some BAD FUNDAMENTALS (like showing that both Donnie AND Pence lied about their knowledge of Michael Flynn's escapades).

The process continues......
Title: Re: Russiagate
Post by: TerryM on April 26, 2017, 08:07:44 PM
An interesting monologue, but so little re. Russiagate.


If Putin could actually alter the outcome of an American election, then how many other elections worldwide have been hacked?
What horrors are in store for us in 2018? What would stop the Armenians, the Australians or the Austrians from hacking that election? - And that's just the A list.
Do we need to shut down the internet during campaign season? Are newspapers, TV and the radio safe from foreign interference?


Perhaps a loyalty oath. Have you ever watched RT? Have you ever read Tolstoy? Did you ever cheer for the Russian Hockey Team? Do you now, or have you ever worn Red flannel underwear?


Apologies for the levity, but this would evoke peals of laughter if it wasn't taken so seriously by folk that should be able to see through the smoke and mirrors.
Terry
Title: Re: Russiagate
Post by: Buddy on April 26, 2017, 08:36:25 PM
Quote
this would evoke peals of laughter if it wasn't taken so seriously by folk that should be able to see through the smoke and mirrors.
Terry

Yes....it is all smoke and mirrors.  Just like global warming..... ;)  I'm even surprised you waste your time commenting on it....
Title: Re: Russiagate
Post by: Martin Gisser on April 26, 2017, 11:59:09 PM
An interesting monologue, but so little re. Russiagate.
I'm a bit fed up with Trump stuff, so I won't dig out and revisit all the stuff I've seen since last year.

Here is a question for you and other "disbelievers": Why is Russiagate so hard to accept?

Quote
If Putin could actually alter the outcome of an American election, then how many other elections worldwide have been hacked?
Methinks it is very difficult to tell how much influence "Putin" had on the outcome. (E.g. there's also Comey's october surprise.) See below for Obama's take in his Dec.16 press conference.

Latest news from the French front:
https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/worldviews/wp/2017/04/25/cyberattack-on-french-presidential-front-runner-bears-russian-fingerprints-research-group-says/ (https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/worldviews/wp/2017/04/25/cyberattack-on-french-presidential-front-runner-bears-russian-fingerprints-research-group-says/)

Quote
folk that should be able to see through the smoke and mirrors.
Terry
What smoke and mirrors? Where? Who?

-----------------
What brought down Nixon was his attempted cover-up of the Watergate break-in. Sooo, what about the cover-ups by the Trump folk? Maybe Donnie got Alzheimer like Ronnie, and forgot about many campaign helpers, from Carter Page to Wikileaks.
https://www.rawstory.com/2017/04/there-is-an-active-cover-up-going-on-carl-bernstein-goes-off-on-former-trump-staffer/ (https://www.rawstory.com/2017/04/there-is-an-active-cover-up-going-on-carl-bernstein-goes-off-on-former-trump-staffer/)

Here is more on cover-ups by the hilarious Keith Olbermann: https://youtu.be/UYbsN5WImrU (https://youtu.be/UYbsN5WImrU)

-----------------
I shouldn't mention another recent news item, :) for it might feed conspiracist ideation about a "deep state" cabal against poor Humpty Trumpty...
http://www.reuters.com/article/us-usa-russia-election-exclusive-idUSKBN17L2N3 (http://www.reuters.com/article/us-usa-russia-election-exclusive-idUSKBN17L2N3)
Quote
A Russian government think tank controlled by Vladimir Putin developed a plan to swing the 2016 U.S. presidential election to Donald Trump and undermine voters’ faith in the American electoral system, three current and four former U.S. officials told Reuters.

They described two confidential documents from the think tank as providing the framework and rationale for what U.S. intelligence agencies have concluded was an intensive effort by Russia to interfere with the Nov. 8 election. U.S. intelligence officials acquired the documents, which were prepared by the Moscow-based Russian Institute for Strategic Studies [en.riss.ru/], after the election.

The institute is run by retired senior Russian foreign intelligence officials appointed by Putin’s office.

------------
Here is Obama's excellent comment:
Quote
... our vulnerability to Russia or any other foreign power is directly related to how divided, partisan, dysfunctional our political process is. That's the thing that makes us vulnerable.

If fake news that's being released by some foreign government is almost identical to reports that are being issued through partisan news venues, then it's not surprising that that foreign propaganda will have a greater effect. It doesn't seem that far-fetched compared to some of the other stuff that folks are hearing from domestic propagandists.

To the extent that our political dialogue is such where everything is under suspicion, and everybody is corrupt, and everybody is doing things for partisan reasons, and all of our institutions are, you know, full of malevolent actors, if that's the story line that is being put out there by whatever party is out of power, then when a foreign government introduces that same argument, with facts that are made up, voters who have been listening to that stuff for years, who have been getting that stuff every day from talk radio or other venues, they're going to believe it.

So if we want to really reduce foreign influence on our elections, then we had better think about how to make sure that our political process, our political dialogue is stronger than it has been.
https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/post-politics/wp/2016/12/16/transcript-obamas-end-of-year-news-conference-on-syria-russian-hacking-and-more/ (https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/post-politics/wp/2016/12/16/transcript-obamas-end-of-year-news-conference-on-syria-russian-hacking-and-more/)

Title: Re: Russiagate
Post by: Archimid on April 27, 2017, 12:08:46 AM
An interesting monologue, but so little re. Russiagate.


If Putin could actually alter the outcome of an American election, then how many other elections worldwide have been hacked?
What horrors are in store for us in 2018? What would stop the Armenians, the Australians or the Austrians from hacking that election? - And that's just the A list.
Do we need to shut down the internet during campaign season? Are newspapers, TV and the radio safe from foreign interference?


Perhaps a loyalty oath. Have you ever watched RT? Have you ever read Tolstoy? Did you ever cheer for the Russian Hockey Team? Do you now, or have you ever worn Red flannel underwear?


Apologies for the levity, but this would evoke peals of laughter if it wasn't taken so seriously by folk that should be able to see through the smoke and mirrors.
Terry

I think you underestimate the impact of social media and the power of misinformation. If a few regular people can sell you [insert product] then what can teams of highly trained intelligence operatives with access to data that you and I can't even imagine do? They can certainly tip the odds of an election.
Title: Re: Russiagate
Post by: Herfried on April 27, 2017, 12:24:28 AM
Putin definitely helped out Trump with data. Data about "which slogan might do its best were". In the narrow race, this definitely was doing his victory.

Why? To weaken America, by putting a highly corrupt, reckless and rather incompetent Showmaster on the lead? Maybe. Likely he also hoped that this showman attitude just could make them friends. The bigger question is: Putin may help out a bit, bring one or two percent of the votes, higher rates locally. To make this a winning number, many many Americans were already for Trump before. The idea, that this guy is against the (capitalistic political, economical) system is just plain stupid. But people voted or that. And others like the show.

Watching US news ... Full of show. And between the loud noise, there ae a few sips of news, but not too high in dose. Americans like show more than anything else. And here... the showman Trump delivered what so many people like: show.  For this he was elected And that is sad.
Title: Re: Russiagate
Post by: TerryM on April 27, 2017, 01:54:11 AM
Was Putin rootin for Trump?
He was definitely against Hillary's ascendancy to the Presidency. When it came down to a two man show he was pro Trump. Prior to Trump's nomination, I'm not so sure.


Did Putin have access to data that could help Trump's campaign?
Almost certainly.
Did he pass this on to Trump?
Probably, just as "W" past information on to Steven Harper in their closed door meeting, and just as surely as Obama gave Trudeau software to identify Liberal voters. I'm equally sure that many European leaders preferred Hillary and passed information on to her campaign.


Did Putin violate international laws?
Not likely, he seems usually zealous WRT international law.
Did Trump violate international laws?
I'm sure he would have if he thought it would help him get elected. The man is short on scruples.


Does this mean that the election results can't be trusted?
No, this is the way all elections go. This election experienced no more or no less "foreign" interference than any other Presidential election. Foreign potentates have often had opinions about who they thought should be leading America. Every one from Churchill to the Pope has had his say, and his attempts at manipulating the outcome.


BTW
What coded messages was Enrique Pena Nieto sending to his armies of minions throughout the American South West?
Don't know, can't understand Spanish. But we did get rid of Sheriff Joe !!


Terry
Title: Re: Russiagate
Post by: Archimid on April 27, 2017, 02:21:30 AM
Ok by that post I assume that it is perfectly acceptable to you that foreign nations meddle in the elections of other nations. IN the past that could have been considered an act of war but times are changing. To me no nation should engage in influencing the elections of other countries. It seem that will lead to a lot of violence. But lets move past that.

How about policy setting? Do you feel that some countries should design policy for other countries and introduce it using double agents? Because that is what Flynn and all other Trump "advisers"  did and were successful. They were so successful in fact that Trump named Flynn as the National Security Advisor.  A position he then had to resign because he failed to disclose Russian connections in the security clearance. That shows both the foolishness of these people and their ill intent. That's how deep Putin has influence the policy of the current administration.

Of course this didn't magically happen in the vacuum. The ground was fertile in congress because fossil fuel interest and Republican interests are tightly aligned. The money have been flowing between these interests for a long time. The people were primed by fear of the black president, immigrants and Muslims. Just the kind of fear that can easily develop in protectionist self destruction. Very convenient for an expanding nation.

TerryM i don't want to offend you because I find some of your posts insightful, but I believe that the one who is blinded is you. It seems surreal, I know, but the evidence is there. Kinda like the Arctic collapse. It sounds too bad to be true, but here we are.
Title: Re: Russiagate
Post by: Buddy on April 27, 2017, 02:35:41 AM
Quote
TerryM i don't want to offend you because I find some of your posts insightful, but I believe that the one who is blinded is you. It seems surreal, I know, but the evidence is there. Kinda like the Arctic collapse.

Could not have put it any better than that myself, so I won't try.  SPOT ON.
Title: Re: Russiagate
Post by: Martin Gisser on April 27, 2017, 03:41:35 AM
http://www.politico.com/story/2017/04/25/michael-flynn-turkey-russia-237550 (http://www.politico.com/story/2017/04/25/michael-flynn-turkey-russia-237550)
Flynn’s Turkish lobbying linked to Russia
The former national security adviser’s client had business dealings in Russia and worked with an executive in Russian oil companies on Turkish lobbying projects.

...and the White House refuses to hand over any documents on his vetting. Do we have a Watergate-ish cover-up here?

I ask again: Why turn a blind eye to Russiagate?
Title: Re: Russiagate
Post by: TerryM on April 27, 2017, 05:35:41 AM
Archimid
I don't think it matters whether you or I believe it's acceptable to meddle in other countries elections. Google for the IDU, the International Democrat Union was set up by Ronald Reagan, Margret Thatcher and John Howard for just this purpose. They have a website, but the Wikipedia entry is more interesting.


Martin
I was aware that Flynn was a registered Turkish lobbyist, my understanding was that he was being paid to promote Turkish interests. He defiantly should not by in the government's employ.


Trump should never have won the nomination, but realistically Hillary would have lost to (almost) any candidate the Republican's fielded. If we accept that Trump was a flawed candidate, and that the Republican nomination process was flawed, we also have to accept that Hillary was a flawed Nominee, and that we need to do better in 2020.
Making excuses for her loss by blaming Putin, or even Comey, who had far more influence on the vote, allows us to march straight ahead into another electoral disaster.


Many Americans on the left blame Putin for their loss. Many of us, outside the direct onslaught of American propaganda, think you are blinded by your loss. The defining difference that I see it is the influence of the propaganda bubble you live in. Seeing a bubble from inside takes enormous effort, from outside it glistens in the sun.


Terry
Title: Re: Russiagate
Post by: budmantis on April 27, 2017, 05:48:18 AM

Did Putin violate international laws?
Not likely, he seems usually zealous WRT international law.

Terry

What about Russia's annexation of the Crimea?  What about the invasion of Georgia back in 2008?  I enjoy reading your posts Terry, because as Archimid said, your posts tend to be insightful, but sometimes I don't understand your point of view with regards to Putin. Clearly the Democrats lost an election they should have easily won, and they are to blame for the most part.

As long as there is the possibility of Russian involvement in our election, it needs to be investigated. I've seen you voice concerns about provoking Putin and your concerns that they have a nuclear capability similar to ours, etc., but I don't think Putin is going to be pacified by appeasement. On the other hand, I'm not sure aggression is the answer either, but sometimes, we just have to push back.

If Putin did have a hand in helping Trump get elected, he may have had second thoughts after the U.S. bombing of the Syrian air base. Whether Putin interfered in our election or not, there is enough information to warrant an investigation, but I blame the Democrats almost entirely for the outcome of the election.

BudM

P.S.: After reading your latest post, it appears we are more in agreement than I first thought!
Title: Re: Russiagate
Post by: TerryM on April 27, 2017, 06:42:47 AM
budm
I can't answer re. Georgia, although I believe their leader was run out of the country for stealing the silverware, or something.


I was following the events in Crimea very closely and find no fault in Putin's actions. The crazies from Kiev were heading their way dancing in the streets and chanting that they would put them all "to the knife". In very short order they refused to accept the coup as their government, held an election after declaring themselves a free and separate nation, then asked to be taken under Russia's wing.


Donetsk and Luhansk faced, and are still facing similar problems. So far Putin has refused their requests to join the federation.


The US had already taken bids to rebuild the Russian Naval Base in Crimea well before rioting began in Kiev, lending credence to the theory that what happened in Ukraine wasn't a civil war. I have no idea why Putin hasn't allowed the citizens of Donetsk and Luhansk the same protection he has afforded Crimeans. Hopefully the bloodshed there will end.


I'm relieved that our positions are coming closer as I respect your insights. I do see this as a very important matter that could end very, very badly.
Terry
Title: Re: Russiagate
Post by: mati on April 27, 2017, 07:12:37 AM
terry m
your memory is faulty to the point of malice.
crimea was just another invasion of russian troops to "protect"
russian citizens, a ploy used by hitler and stalin in order to grab land
to deny this means you are not who you say you are in your posts
but that you are playing us for fools
Title: Re: Russiagate
Post by: TerryM on April 27, 2017, 09:30:14 AM
terry m
your memory is faulty to the point of malice.
crimea was just another invasion of russian troops to "protect"
russian citizens, a ploy used by hitler and stalin in order to grab land
to deny this means you are not who you say you are in your posts
but that you are playing us for fools


Sorry, you're wrong.
Do a modicum of research on the "polite men in green" and you'll find they were Russian military with every right to be stationed in Crimea.
If discussions with me make you feel like a fool, that's not my responsibility to correct.
Terry
Title: Re: Russiagate
Post by: Hefaistos on April 27, 2017, 09:54:06 AM
terry m
your memory is faulty to the point of malice.
crimea was just another invasion of russian troops to "protect"
russian citizens, a ploy used by hitler and stalin in order to grab land
to deny this means you are not who you say you are in your posts
but that you are playing us for fools

I've been to Crimea numerous times, and have lived in Russia for several years so have some insights into this.
Crimea basically has a Russian population (>90%), it was part of Russia for hundreds of years and the Russian SSR until Khruschev for stupid reasons gave it as a gift to the Ukrainian SSR back in the '50's.
It's a fact that the Russian population was discriminated against by the Ukrainians, once the Soviet system collapsed. Crimeans wholeheartedly wanted to be returned to Russia, and welcomed their liberation from Ukraine.
I'd say that the return of Crimea to Russia was a correction of a historic mistake made by Khruschev. Yes, it was done in total disregard to Ukraine. On the other hand, a coup d'etat was staged against the democratically elected president (yanukovich)  of Ukraine at the same time, so the annexation of Crimea must be understood in that context.
Title: Re: Russiagate
Post by: Zeug Gezeugt on April 27, 2017, 11:05:50 AM
What about Russia's annexation of the Crimea?  What about the invasion of Georgia back in 2008?

There was no military invasion of Georgia in any legal sense as even a cursory attempt at research should show you, and I'm sure you know how to do research Bud. The Georgian armed forces attacked their own ethnically Russian enclaves and the UN mandated Russian Federation military that were keeping the peace there. The RF military response was as swift and overwhelmingly brutal as it was lawful, they crushed the Georgian military and then withdrew to the previously agreed borders. If it was Mexican military killing US peace keepers protecting citizens in the Mexican enclave of Texas I imagine you would applaud the US military application of overwhelming force in response?

I also fail to see how anyone can complain about the semi-autonomous Crimean parliament's decision to go to a referendum on secession from the Ukraine in the face of what they considered to be a violently unconstitutional coup against the democratically elected government of Ukraine.  The overwhelming choice of the Crimean people, the overwhelming majority of whom are ethnically Russian, to secede was democracy in practice, no?

And again there was no Russian military invasion, the troops were already legally there as they have been for the last 2 centuries in Sevastopol. Remember the Crimean war? Or WW2 perhaps?

I despair at the stupidity of people who just regurgitate these propaganda memes as if they know what they're talking about when just a modicum of actual research will show the exact opposite! CC denialists do this all the time, arguing from passion with preconceived conclusions that find no evidentiary basis in reality, and you all know exactly how they work.

No invasion of Georgia, no invasion of the Crimea, these are utterly crude war propaganda memes peddled by the US government and its corporate media. THEY ARE DEMONSTRABLY BARE FACED LIES!
Title: Re: Russiagate
Post by: Buddy on April 27, 2017, 03:25:19 PM
So....getting back to RussiaGate.  Keep in mind...that RussiaGate ALONG with other issues (like healthcare, taxes, etc) are going to continue to "wear on" Donnie's approval ratings in coming weeks and months.  Below is a link to a FOX poll (yes....THAT FOX).  The "headline" on the poll looks good for Donnie....at 46% which is about 5% higher than most other polls....but about 2/3 down the polling information is this little tidbit:

Some 36 percent of voters would vote to re-elect Trump.  Fifty-five percent wouldn’t, including 47 percent who say they’d “definitely” vote for someone else.

THAT....is Donnie's base starting to weaken.  And weaken considerably.

As more and more information starts to come out of the RussiaGate investigations...especially starting on May 8th....I expect to see further...slow....weakening in Donnies poll numbers.

http://occupydemocrats.com/2017/04/26/fox-news-poll-trumps-first-100-days-just-backfired-bigly/ (http://occupydemocrats.com/2017/04/26/fox-news-poll-trumps-first-100-days-just-backfired-bigly/)
Title: Re: Russiagate
Post by: Buddy on April 27, 2017, 03:49:29 PM
I'm afraid Jason Chaffetz really got his "panties in a wad" on this one.  Before the election....Jason was more than happy to talk about Benghazi and looking into any and every Clinton issue there was.  And Jason was more than happy to work WITH the FBI in order to get Comey to come out and make an announcement regarding Clinton.

That rat is going to have a very bad day in the weeks or months ahead.  Keep in mind....that US reps serve 2 year terms.  So he was JUST re-elected in 2016.  And two weeks ago he SUDDENLY decides he isn't going to run again.  And then a week ago....he decides not only is he not going to run again....but he is going to step down early if he finds a job.  And now...a few days after that....he decides he's going to get surgery on his foot, so he has to step down NOW.

One thing you learn in finance.....is when it looks like a rat, walks like a rat, and talks like a rat....ITS A RAT.  It's just a matter of time.  And my buddy Jason's time is quickly running out.

http://www.palmerreport.com/opinion/jason-chaffetz-leaves-congress-blaming-a-foot-problem-is-he-stuck-between-russia-and-the-fbi/2466/ (http://www.palmerreport.com/opinion/jason-chaffetz-leaves-congress-blaming-a-foot-problem-is-he-stuck-between-russia-and-the-fbi/2466/)
Title: Re: Russiagate
Post by: Buddy on April 27, 2017, 04:01:44 PM
It looks like the US will pass a spending resolution that will give them ANOTHER WEEK before "the money runs out" and they have to pass a REAL spending bill.  What this does is further "compress" several issues that are coming together ALL AT ONCE:

1)  The French election on May 7th
2)  US House investigation with public interviews of Sally Yates (acting AG) and James Clapper on May 8th
3)  Spending deadline likely will be pushed back to next week sometime....May 5th or so
4)  Korea standoff continues to fester and grow...

Title: Re: Russiagate
Post by: budmantis on April 27, 2017, 04:25:17 PM
What about Russia's annexation of the Crimea?  What about the invasion of Georgia back in 2008?


I despair at the stupidity of people who just regurgitate these propaganda memes as if they know what they're talking about when just a modicum of actual research will show the exact opposite! CC denialists do this all the time, arguing from passion with preconceived conclusions that find no evidentiary basis in reality, and you all know exactly how they work.


Quite a diatribe there Zeug. You take a simple question, and you proceed to categorize me as uninformed, stupid and other labels too numerous to mention. I'm guilty of doing the same not so long ago. You appear to know a lot more about this subject than I do, but you are sorely lacking in tact and diplomacy. I suggest you take the time to learn these skills and apply them.

No hard feelings,

BudM
Title: Re: Russiagate
Post by: Archimid on April 27, 2017, 07:28:52 PM

I also fail to see how anyone can complain about the semi-autonomous Crimean parliament's decision to go to a referendum on secession from the Ukraine in the face of what they considered to be a violently unconstitutional coup against the democratically elected government of Ukraine.  The overwhelming choice of the Crimean people, the overwhelming majority of whom are ethnically Russian, to secede was democracy in practice, no?


Yeah I'm sure that's the official line. As someone who lives in an unincorporated territory who 100 years ago belonged to Spain and now belongs to the US I got an idea of what really happened there. I'm sure, there was a significant portion of the population that wanted annexation with Russia. Also I'm sure there was a significant portion of the population who preferred the status quo.

Quote
And again there was no Russian military invasion, the troops were already legally there as they have been for the last 2 centuries in Sevastopol. Remember the Crimean war? Or WW2 perhaps?

No, not Russian, only little green men with no markings, armed to the teeth, taking over strategical centers of power. If they were Russian, no court could ever prove it. Just like the election interference and policy setting for Donald Trump. Perfectly traceable, yet unprocessable. Good job.

Quote
THEY ARE DEMONSTRABLY BARE FACED LIES!

Unlike your lies who are carefully orchestrated to not be demonstrable in any court of law.  It was a beautifully executed plan. Very organic.
Title: Re: Russiagate
Post by: Zeug Gezeugt on April 27, 2017, 11:06:32 PM
Yeah I'm sure that's the official line. As someone who lives in an unincorporated territory who 100 years ago belonged to Spain and now belongs to the US I got an idea of what really happened there. I'm sure, there was a significant portion of the population that wanted annexation with Russia. Also I'm sure there was a significant portion of the population who preferred the status quo.

Hi Archimid,

the Pew, GfK and Gallup polls indicate around 80-90% of Crimeans approve of the secession post referendum. The 'significant portion' of those against it was around 5% or less. As far as I know the peninsula is overwhelmingly ethnic Russian (>80%?) which would reflect the polling, plus a Tatar minority and then ethnic Ukrainian speakers. The secession was clearly a democratic choice of the people who live there don't you think?

As with the debate on anthropogenic climate change I prefer evidence based reality to propagandised lies. This current bout of neo-McCarthyist Russophobia in the US is insane, an expression of US elite angst concerning their ongoing loss of hegemonic power and the fact the Russians dare to act for their own national interests rather than kowtow to the superpower. The endgame for this global full spectrum dominance power play is the ultimate threat, a thermonuclear first strike to decapitate both Russia and China, and the US has been actively preparing for that eventuality ever since Bush 2 unilaterally cancelled the ABM treaty in 2002.

All this never ending 21st C global war does is stall any real cooperation on adjusting our global way of life to the inevitability of climate change, and every year we fail to act will just increase the misery of our children's children. How stupid are we collectively as a species!?

So yes, frankly speaking and please pardon my French, but f**k your Russophobic stupidity!
Title: Re: Russiagate
Post by: johnm33 on April 28, 2017, 12:09:41 AM
All this talk about interference in other countries politics reminded me of when we in the UK last had a socialist prime minister. He consistently refused to toe the line as demanded by the USA so someone at the embassy persuaded a particularly stupid general, and various other establishment figures that he needed to be replaced, and a coup was set up. Up to and including the takeover of major airports, well almost, some tory grandee put his foot down and persuaded the plotters that if they wanted a general uprising that would run out of control to what end nobody could guess, then they were going about it the right way. Cooler heads prevailed. This is a very cleaned up and slanted account, but at least it addresses the reality.
https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2006/mar/15/comment.labour1 (https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2006/mar/15/comment.labour1)
Title: Re: Russiagate
Post by: TerryM on April 28, 2017, 12:31:45 AM
All this talk about interference in other countries politics reminded me of when we in the UK last had a socialist prime minister. He consistently refused to toe the line as demanded by the USA so someone at the embassy persuaded a particularly stupid general, and various other establishment figures that he needed to be replaced, and a coup was set up. Up to and including the takeover of major airports, well almost, some tory grandee put his foot down and persuaded the plotters that if they wanted a general uprising that would run out of control to what end nobody could guess, then they were going about it the right way. Cooler heads prevailed. This is a very cleaned up and slanted account, but at least it addresses the reality.
https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2006/mar/15/comment.labour1 (https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2006/mar/15/comment.labour1)


WoW
Title: Re: Russiagate
Post by: Archimid on April 28, 2017, 12:56:55 AM

Hi Archimid,

the Pew, GfK and Gallup polls indicate around 80-90% of Crimeans approve of the secession post referendum. The 'significant portion' of those against it was around 5% or less. As far as I know the peninsula is overwhelmingly ethnic Russian (>80%?) which would reflect the polling, plus a Tatar minority and then ethnic Ukrainian speakers. The secession was clearly a democratic choice of the people who live there don't you think?


You mean the referendum with Russian soldiers stationed everywhere? LOL I probably would have voted for annexation if the Russian military apparatus was watching.

Quote
As with the debate on anthropogenic climate change I prefer evidence based reality to propagandised lies.

I don't understand your statement. Putin is a climate change denier and a fossil fuel profiteer, but you believe his words are "evidence based"? Is that what you are trying to say?

Quote
So yes, frankly speaking and please pardon my French, but f**k your Russophobic stupidity!

French forgiven, Russophobic accusation not forgiven. I have no fear of the Russian people, or even the country. I do however fear a murderous dictator bent on weakening Europe and the US, who is now driving a protectionist, xenophobic and authoritarian movement in the west.
Title: Re: Russiagate
Post by: magnamentis on April 28, 2017, 02:06:29 AM
probably it makes little sense to break through obvious bias but then one thing and think about it:

russia tried to become a part of the so called international community for decades after the downfall of the USSR and they were lied to, cheated and ridiculed, treated as minors and as the big losers.

after many years of being offended over and over again the guy "putin" got tired of it and remembered that they had all the ingredients to be a world power that cannot be beaten without
being suicidal, same applies to china and the U.S. hence russia stood up and who knows only the tiniest bit about russia knows that jelzin's soft hand got the country ever deeper into chaos and that that huge and wild country with too many alcoholics and cruel people need a hard hand to function, as, btw does china with it's 1.2 billion people. things are not black and white and not as easy as they seem and the western world is bankrupt exactly as the USSR was, we just lie and cheat ourselves through as long as we can and exploit africa and the rest of the world to keep the level and the show running into the abyss.

i'm swiss, not russian, just to make that clear and in my home country russiaphobia is widely spread indeed, mostly based on ignorance and fear.

the greates destabilisators in this world were once the colonial powers and now the U.S. and its vassal states ( UK, Australia and the likes ) i call them a..leekers but not that it matters what i think LOL. things will go their way and only chaos will lead to a new, perhaps better, perhaps worse aera.
Title: Re: Russiagate
Post by: Archimid on April 28, 2017, 03:44:36 AM

i'm swiss, not russian, just to make that clear and in my home country russiaphobia is widely spread indeed, mostly based on ignorance and fear.



I'm sorry but the news I read indicate that Putin's government uses the government to silence opposition. He practices assassination and intimidation of journalists. He actively backs Al Assad, a murderer who gasses his own people. From what I read homosexuals and some religious groups are persecuted. He has been in power 15 years and is now one of the richest men in the world.


Why should I not fear Putin? You can say what you want about the US or the west but I bet you that Russians citizens couldn't have the discussion we are having without fear for their lives. That should scare anyone who values freedom.


Now let me tell you a little true story about elections and polls. The island of Puerto Rico is a territory of the US. The two major parties main contention is the "status" of Puerto Rico. The blues want Puerto Rico to become a state. The reds want Puerto Rico to stay as it is. Then there is the minority party, the greens, who have not gotten more than 2% of the vote in the last 20 years, they want complete independence from the US.

For many years, the reds won the status referendums, but with a decreasing lead overtime. The choices in those polls were always:

1.Statehood
2.Common wealth (stay the same)
3 Independence

Then a particularly corrupt blue won and decided to change the way referendums were done. The new choices were:

1. Statehood
2. Almost independence (some made up, scary sounding political status)
3. Independence

Naturally statehood won by a very large margin. People are terrified of losing Puerto Rico's  association with the US. But did it the referendum really reflect the will of the people? We'll never know because those weren't fair elections. Still blues ran with it and gained popularity. Of course statehood wasn't any closer, but most people don't care about little things like facts.

In the case of Crimea, These are the questions asked:

Choice 1: Do you support the reunification of Crimea with Russia with all the rights of the federal subject of the Russian Federation?
Choice 2: Do you support the restoration of the Constitution of the Republic of Crimea in 1992 and the status of the Crimea as part of Ukraine?

Choice 2 seems like a similar trick as the "almost independence" trick.


Also a point of fact Crimean Demographics:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_of_Crimea  (better reference welcomed)

as of 2014

 65% Russians
15.7% Ukrainians
12.2% Crimean Tatars (probably the true owners of Crimea, and a suffering people, but I have no clue)

Now hold on. This doesn't mean that the population is 90% Russian now. I can think of many reasons for the proportion of the population of one ethnicity to rise dramatically while others drop in just 2 years.  So Zeug might not be completely lying.
Title: Re: Russiagate
Post by: Buddy on April 28, 2017, 04:22:15 AM
Tick......tick.....tick......tick....

Continuing to unwind.  More in the morning......
Title: Re: Russiagate
Post by: mati on April 28, 2017, 04:39:40 AM
it is really hard in online discussion boards to decide who is a sock puppet or who is not.  Putin has realized that by recruiting an army of puppetiers who attack any post/negative comment on the internet is the new propaganda victory.

so when i see unsubstaniated comments/reviews, i take them with a grain of salt, cause you see i can claim to be Frodo, and i can get proof like you would not believe.

because my sock puppet supporters will echo my comments, and provide background to prove i am real.

THIS is the new propaganda that Putin and his army, China and their army are now focusing on. 

It is not just the leaks from Russia, but the use of their sockpuppets to feed FUD on facebook and other social media sites that has is the root of the problem.

Title: Re: Russiagate
Post by: TerryM on April 28, 2017, 05:08:23 AM
mati


Since I've been posting on Neven's sites since early 2011, and have only begun posting about politics recently, you must assume that evil Putin is playing a very long game indeed.
Isn't it more likely to assume a modicum of paranoia on your part than even a hint of puppetry in mine?


As for others that find no fault in Putin's dealings in Crimea, isn't it astonishing that my research, and their prior knowledge, mirror each other so closely. If you can concede that I at least am almost certainly who I purport to be, doesn't it follow that the others are also flesh and bone contributors here?


Terry
Title: Re: Russiagate
Post by: TerryM on April 28, 2017, 06:09:05 AM
As far as the will of the Crimean populace, I believe I'm correct when I say that twice in the past they held referendums and overwhelmingly voted to join Putin's Russia. I know I'm correct when I state that Pew Research's polls gave results that approximated the reported voting results. Hardly what would be expected if Russian military had an effect on the outcome.


When people so unquestioningly parrot the most popular propaganda, I think it's fortunate that they were first exposed to climate change memes rather than denialist themes. The same processes are used to determine the truth in both instances.


Does it make logical sense?
Are facts more important than personalities?
Does one side accept divergent facts as long as they point away from the others truth?
Who gets nicked by Occam's razor?
Who stands to gain?


There are many more tells in determining the truth, some very subtle, some as easy as reading history or contacting someone from the region that you can trust.


I spent ~2 years watching and reading everything from both sides in the Ukrainian conflict. I watched a thousand videos, read tens of thousands of accounts, and came to the same conclusion as those that lived through the worst of it.
The coup was not financed nor lead from within the country.
Those in power now may or may not not be true Nazis, but many of those that work for them are.
Putin saved thousands of lives in Crimea, and they are grateful.
The West bears great responsibility for what has happened, and for what the future will hold.


The above is only slightly OT since Putin's actions in Crimea seem so important to some.


Terry
Title: Re: Russiagate
Post by: Zeug Gezeugt on April 28, 2017, 10:17:44 AM
Quite a diatribe there Zeug. You take a simple question, and you proceed to categorize me as uninformed, stupid and other labels too numerous to mention. I'm guilty of doing the same not so long ago. You appear to know a lot more about this subject than I do, but you are sorely lacking in tact and diplomacy. I suggest you take the time to learn these skills and apply them.

No hard feelings,

BudM

Hi BudM,

apologies for the diatribe but I do despair after 15 years of nonstop global warfare waged by the US and its vassals, Australia included of course. And I find the normalisation of militarism in our western societies especially troubling, its criminal hypocrisy permeates everything from our politics to corporate media, academia, policing, popular culture, everyday discourse and our national identities. This cultural mediocrity is apparently what living with fascism feels like in the 21st C!

The US and EU economies are in for another round of collapse probably sooner rather than later, probably this time it's the central banks going down the drain along with US global financial hegemony, and it seems we're being prepped with the threat of another round of world war to remedy that fact. A bit 19th century I know but it's worked before and these western elites haven't got much else to work with to ensure their global dominance. And everyone applauds Trump's blatantly criminal militarism, from Merkel to Hillary and the NYT. This US emperor is butt naked as they have all been for well over a decade now and yet ... still they applaud?

The sooner the US superpower devolves back to one great power amongst equals the sooner some degree of sanity might prevail in international relations, and the sooner we can collectively begin dealing with the threat of CC so long as they don't trigger MAD before we get there. However, the collapse of modern technological civilisation and the possible extinction of homo sapiens in a global thermonuclear war would be one way of dealing with anthropogenic climate change, but how stupid would that be?

And that's what I hear in Russiagate and all the other war propaganda, including your questions re Russian 'invasions' - the suicidal stupidity of our collective intellect. We need to become much smarter as a species and very quickly, within this current generation, otherwise the ship of fools is going down without any lifeboats after the captains blow a hole in the hull as it sails into a perfect storm. I pity the children born into this stupidity!
Title: Re: Russiagate
Post by: Reallybigbunny on April 28, 2017, 12:10:50 PM
I am a New Zealander. I have been married to a Russian scientist and we have spent some time in Moscow and St Petersburg. I spent some time with the brother of the first man in space Yuri Alekseyevich Gagarin along with other prominent Russian scientists. -42C was pretty cool! Lovely people! Just saying... The Russians require a firm leader and Putin has provided stability for the country.
Title: Re: Russiagate
Post by: budmantis on April 28, 2017, 04:45:28 PM
Thanks Zeug:

I do admire you're passion.

BudM
Title: Re: Russiagate
Post by: oren on April 29, 2017, 09:21:43 AM
I concede that (possibly? probably? certainly?) Putin/Russia meddled in the election. I fail to understand why this is important. Money and power interfere in elections all the time. Fake news can and is generated by all sides, and secret information is uncovered and used by everyone and anyone. Russia does not ave any secret weapon that wins elections beyond what other people can and do use.
The core problem - the voters are stupid and have been made stupider in a decades-long process, certainly not controlled by the Russians. In my country I believe it has been the policy of the ministry of education for the last forty years (mostly held by the same religious party over that period) to keep school children in intentional ignorance. It worked beautifully. And now when outside interference comes along, and it does, can I blame the interferer?
And to those who believe that Trump's base will be eroded when the truth is uncovered, here it hasn't worked. The more proofs of the PM's horrors, the more his base is strengthened as a knee-jerk reaction to the "media attacks".
The only way the Democrats can sway the election is to come up with something people will believe in and rally around, as opposed to just attacking the other side. And I agree with whoever said that potentially the environment could be one of those rallying causes, especially if the current administration wantonly destroys it as it seems to be intending.
Title: Re: Russiagate
Post by: H2O world on April 29, 2017, 11:10:07 AM
I've been an avid observer of this forum for some months and this is my first post, I had to work up the courage!
 
I just have to say the U.S. has a long history of attempting to influence presidential elections in other countries. May I suggest researching Carnegie Mellon University researcher Dov Levin about his historical database that tracks U.S. involvement in meddling with foreign elections over the years.

Cheers1
Title: Re: Russiagate
Post by: Buddy on April 29, 2017, 02:10:18 PM
Quote
I concede that (possibly? probably? certainly?) Putin/Russia meddled in the election. I fail to understand why this is important.

Two points:

1)  So....you're saying that any leader (or leaders/countries) can interfere with elections in other countries (including YOURS) and that is not a problem with you?  REALLY? 

2)  The most egregious part isn't Putin.  It's that someone INSIDE OUR OWN COUNTRY RUNNING FOR OFFICE....would conspire with someone outside out country to effect the election.   THAT....is the biggest issue.  The fact that Trump and Company were dealing with a despicable leader like Putin makes it WORSE....but it would already be horrible enough NO MATTER WHO THE LEADER WAS.

Title: Re: Russiagate
Post by: Martin Gisser on April 29, 2017, 02:25:56 PM
What Buddy said. Again I miss a "like" button in this forum :-)

Plus, it's not just about Putin, it is about the fossil mafia trying to build a global oligarchic front. It is about a U.S. national security advisor (with access to all top secret stuff) being paid by Russians, and the White House covering it up. It is about a campaign manager working for free for Trump, after he had propped up a kleptocrat Putin puppet in a failing democracy (Ukraine). Etc. etc. ... Apropos failing democracy... ummm no 'nuff said.
Title: Re: Russiagate
Post by: Buddy on April 29, 2017, 03:19:15 PM
May 8th...will be the beginning of the "next phase" of RussiaGate:  The public display.  Keep in mind we are VERY EARLY in this process.  Watergate was about a group of guys breaking into the Democratic National Committee....getting caught red handed.....and then exposing who knew about it and exposing them covering it up.

RussiaGate is 10 TIMES what Watergate was.  In RussiaGate....we're dealing with:

1)  Helping an enemy government in trying to alter the election outcome
2) Funding some of the foreign involvement (that's coming....tracing bank transactions takes time....and we're dealing with banks in Cyprus, Germany, Ukraine, and other foreign countries).
3)  We're dealing with intelligence agencies in several other countries....especially in Europe.
4)  We're dealing many more people than were involved in Watergate.

Treason will be "on the table" for some of the participants.....  They may not, in the end get tried for treason, but there will DEFINITELY be discussion of it....and possible prosecution of it.

The real "fun" begins on May 8th.  And I do mean fun.  I hope Spicey gets some rest this coming week....because beginning on May 8th....he's going to have to be at his lying best. 

What we know about Flynn so far:

1)  Michael Flynn LIED about his communications with Russian officials
2)  Michael Flynn did not DISCLOSE the money he received from foreign governments (AFTER he was warned.)
3)  There were SIGNIFICANT RED FLAGS (pun intended) BEFORE Flynn was hired.  They were in the press ALREADY.
4)  Flynn continued to work at his position....and be involved in meetings.....THREE WEEKS AFTER THE ACTING US ATTORNEY GENERAL SALLY YATES NOTIFIED MIKE PENCE AND THE TRUMP TEAMabout the issue of Flynn NOT being susceptible to blackmail by the Russians because he was lying.
5) Mike Pence has already LIED ABOUT HIM NO KNOWING AT IT.  It's on video.  Pence pleaded "ignorance". HE LIED.  In addition to Pence lying.....Donnie as well as Jeff Sessions have ALREADY LIED about their lack of knowledge regarding Michael Flynn.

Flynn is only the first of MANY...MANY people that will be swallowed up and spit out by this.  The things to watch SHORT TERM:

1)   Watch FBI Director Comey and Attorney General Sessions.  Sessions will at some point..... fire the FBI director...maybe within weeks.  The FBI is getting too close...and unless Comey "rolls over" (which I don't expect).....he will force Sessions hand.  Sessions is in DEEP SHIT with Donnie.  Donnie, Flynn, Sessions, and others were all in on it.

2)  If I were you...I would record the testimony of May 8th with Sally Yates.  It will be enlightening.

3)  Keep your eyes on Korea.  Just how crazy and delusional is Donnie?  Pretty damn delusional.  Anything could happen.

Here is some other...."unsubstantiated" info.....but it is just a matter of time...
http://www.palmerreport.com/opinion/report-two-grand-juries-now-underway-in-trump-russia-investigation-one-nearly-complete/2497/ (http://www.palmerreport.com/opinion/report-two-grand-juries-now-underway-in-trump-russia-investigation-one-nearly-complete/2497/)
Title: Re: Russiagate
Post by: Neven on April 29, 2017, 03:39:37 PM
I've been an avid observer of this forum for some months and this is my first post, I had to work up the courage!
 
I just have to say the U.S. has a long history of attempting to influence presidential elections in other countries. May I suggest researching Carnegie Mellon University researcher Dov Levin about his historical database that tracks U.S. involvement in meddling with foreign elections over the years.

Cheers1

H2O world, thanks for delurking. Your profile has been released, so you can post freely now.

I agree with what you say, but as others have pointed out, this doesn't mean that Americans aren't allowed to be upset if Russia has indeed successfully influenced their presidential election.

However, this should also mean that from now on they have the moral obligation to no longer tolerate their various intelligence services to overtly or covertly meddle with the elections of other countries. Ever again. And get all the troops back, unless they're really somewhere for humanitarian reasons.

And I also fully agree with oren:

And to those who believe that Trump's base will be eroded when the truth is uncovered, here it hasn't worked. The more proofs of the PM's horrors, the more his base is strengthened as a knee-jerk reaction to the "media attacks".
The only way the Democrats can sway the election is to come up with something people will believe in and rally around, as opposed to just attacking the other side. And I agree with whoever said that potentially the environment could be one of those rallying causes, especially if the current administration wantonly destroys it as it seems to be intending.

I still think that pushing Russiagate to get rid of Trump as quickly as possible, isn't a very smart thing to do from a strategic point of view. It may very well increase the chances of a smart Trump next time, who comes with a united Republican Party.

And who knows, maybe that next smarter version of Trump will be friends with Italian kleptocrats. Will the media then declare war on Italy?  :D
Title: Re: Russiagate
Post by: Buddy on April 29, 2017, 03:57:11 PM
Quote
I still think that pushing Russiagate to get rid of Trump as quickly as possible, isn't a very smart thing to do from a strategic point of view. It may very well increase the chances of a smart Trump next time, who comes with a united Republican Party.

I already thought I couldn't DISAGREE with you more.....because I was already at a level 10.....I guess I was wrong.  Now I'm at 11....:)

If the US would "go ahead and let it happen"......then we have now set a precedent.  So not only would we get "the smarter guys".....we would get more of the "dumber guys" doing the same thing.

I expect to see SIGNIFICANT CHANGES to the election process after this mess is cleaned up (and that may be as much as 2 years down the road).

There are a LOT of changes that will be made to "protect us" from people like Donnie....and to take some of the power BACK from the Executive Branch of the US govt.

In the US we have:

1) Executive Branch
2) Legislative Branch
3) Judicial Branch

In theory their "powers" should be approximately equal.....but like everything else in life, they swing from one extreme to another.  They are now too far out of balance.

There is currently too much power in the Executive Branch.  I won't get in "too deep" now....because this is a very BROAD AREA.  Suffice it to say....this will scare the crap out of people in the US....so we would be REMISS if we didn't try to fix it.  It would be like not putting locking doors to the cabin in an airliner.  That should have been done LONG AGO....yet we waited for an event like 9-11.  We can be smarter than that....

Donnie "got into the cabin of our airliner"......we can do some things to help prevent it from happening again....
Title: Re: Russiagate
Post by: gerontocrat on April 29, 2017, 04:25:52 PM
Will the Russian Federation do a proper job of a mlitary parade on Monday ? After all, 100 years  since the Revolution.
Title: Re: Russiagate
Post by: Jim Pettit on April 29, 2017, 04:42:22 PM
Some on this forum--let's call them the "Neo-Stalinist Russophiles" in deference to their own language of choice  ;) --seem to be confused. See, people in the United States aren't that upset about "interference" by other nations. We know that goes on, and we know that the US itself has a long and murky record of meddling in elections in other nations. And people in the US aren't really filled with "angst concerning their ongoing loss of hegemonic power and the fact the Russians dare to act for their own national interests"; that's just, well, undergrad-level silliness. Hell, they're not even that upset with Russia for engaging in electoral scumbaggery around the globe; we all know who and how Putin is, so we expect it. After all, an autocrat's got to do what an autocrat's got to do, amiright?

No.

What they're upset about, see, is the strong likelihood that an American citizen and his posse of underlings worked closely and illegally with agents from a hostile foreign government to subvert our democratic process in order to put that citizen into the White House. And they're upset that that citizen--along with his political party--is now doing everything in his ample power to prevent others from looking into just how closely and illegally he worked with that foreign government.

That's it. Really.

IOW, this isn't necessarily an anti-Russia thing, or an anti-Putin thing, or even a we're-American-and-have-never-screwed-around-with-anyone-anywhere thing. No. It's an anti-treason thing. And we'd feel the same whether the aiding party had been China, or Brazil, or France, or Burkina Faso, or any one of the 194 (or so) countries on Earth that aren't the United States.

If you've been unlucky enough to have had a significant other cheat on you, certainly you were angry at the homewrecking interloper who seduced your SO to stray. But the real, deep, seething and searing pain you felt came not from that third party, but from the unforgettable knowledge that your significant other, someone who had long been part and parcel of who you are, had been disloyal and deceitful to you.

It's like that.
 
(Of course, that being upset is greatly exacerbated by the knowledge that the American citizen who was aided into the White House by that hostile foreign power is a hateful, bigoted, intolerant, greedy, ignorant, arrogant, science-hating, intellectually-incurious, dishonest authoritarian. But even if he weren't all those things, and more, we'd still be upset at the collusion.)
Title: Re: Russiagate
Post by: wili on April 29, 2017, 07:57:56 PM
Nicely put, as usual, JP. Not sure why people can't get your very clear points.
Title: Re: Russiagate
Post by: TerryM on April 29, 2017, 09:01:09 PM
Jim
Are you speaking as a Paleo-Stalinist Russophobe, or as a Neo-Nazi Russophobe?


The Neo-Stalinist Russophile 8)
Terry
Title: Re: Russiagate
Post by: H2O world on April 29, 2017, 10:03:06 PM
To clarify, I don't exactly disagree with you Oren, Trump is an American travesty but did Russia actually “hack” the 2016 presidential election? NO, I think the use of that term to describe what Russia did is not accurate. The Russians hacked a few computers, but they did not “hack” an election. The media’s persistent insinuations are misleading Americans to believe that the Russians actually meddled with the election process itself, including with voting machines. There is zero evidence that occurred.

Did the Russians actually help Trump win the election? Will we ever really know? The race itself was one of the most scandal-ridden in modern history. Given these realities, any number of factors could have been decisive. WikiLeaks revelations, “fake news,” and other disruption operations often got lost in a tidal wave of “organic” bad news for the candidates. Even with Russia likely putting its thumb on the scales for Trump. It’s troubling to know that huge swaths of the American political establishment are being exposed as purely partisan.

One thing is clear: The Russian government has run one of the most inexpensive and disruptive espionage operations in history! It's factual they made a few simple hacks of the DNC, some basic online trolling, and garden-variety propaganda spread by modern means, the Kremlin has turned a superpower’s politics upside down. Putin for now has won, and the magnitude of his victory increases with each petty and partisan turn in Washington’s most consequential drama.

The bottom line, what I think? In an election where any number of factors could have influenced the outcome, we’ll never know if Russia put Trump over the top.

Title: Re: Russiagate
Post by: H2O world on April 29, 2017, 10:07:00 PM
Quote
I concede that (possibly? probably? certainly?) Putin/Russia meddled in the election. I fail to understand why this is important.

Two points:

1)  So....you're saying that any leader (or leaders/countries) can interfere with elections in other countries (including YOURS) and that is not a problem with you?  REALLY? 

2)  The most egregious part isn't Putin.  It's that someone INSIDE OUR OWN COUNTRY RUNNING FOR OFFICE....would conspire with someone outside out country to effect the election.   THAT....is the biggest issue.  The fact that Trump and Company were dealing with a despicable leader like Putin makes it WORSE....but it would already be horrible enough NO MATTER WHO THE LEADER WAS.
To clarify, I don't exactly disagree with you Oren, Trump is an American travesty but did Russia actually “hack” the 2016 presidential election? NO, I think the use of that term to describe what Russia did is not accurate. The Russians hacked a few computers, but they did not “hack” an election. The media’s persistent insinuations are misleading Americans to believe that the Russians actually meddled with the election process itself, including with voting machines. There is zero evidence that occurred.

Did the Russians actually help Trump win the election? Will we ever really know? The race itself was one of the most scandal-ridden in modern history. Given these realities, any number of factors could have been decisive. WikiLeaks revelations, “fake news,” and other disruption operations often got lost in a tidal wave of “organic” bad news for the candidates. Even with Russia likely putting its thumb on the scales for Trump. It’s troubling to know that huge swaths of the American political establishment are being exposed as purely partisan.

One thing is clear: The Russian government has run one of the most inexpensive and disruptive espionage operations in history! It's factual they made a few simple hacks of the DNC, some basic online trolling, and garden-variety propaganda spread by modern means, the Kremlin has turned a superpower’s politics upside down. Putin for now has won, and the magnitude of his victory increases with each petty and partisan turn in Washington’s most consequential drama.

The bottom line, what I think? In an election where any number of factors could have influenced the outcome, we’ll never know if Russia put Trump over the top.


Title: Re: Russiagate
Post by: Jim Pettit on April 29, 2017, 10:40:38 PM
The bottom line, what I think? In an election where any number of factors could have influenced the outcome, we’ll never know if Russia put Trump over the top.

Perhaps. Perhaps not. But that doesn't really matter, does it? After all, a crime is a crime whether it succeeds or not; if you walk into a bank with a handgun and point it at a teller, you're still doing the time even if you walk out emptyhanded. IOW, we need to know whether Trump and his people illicitly worked with Russia to circumvent democracy, not whether those efforts were successful.
Title: Re: Russiagate
Post by: Neven on April 29, 2017, 11:36:42 PM
Did Trump and his cronies work with a foreign government, or is he buddies with kleptocrats from another country? And why would that be treason? Kleptocrats know no borders. Besides, it can only be treason if the US is at war with a particular country. Although we're slowly getting there. Rachel Maddow called it 'international warfare', which is pretty insane, IMO.

So, are we disapproving of an individual event, or are we disapproving of something systemic? I think it's the latter, but on the outside it looks like it's the former. Hence the polarizing, backwards, xenophobe 'Russia, Russia, Russia'. I'm sure efforts are made to get the Russian people in the same mode of thinking. Divide and conquer.

In other words, if we don't want Trump to do it, shall we from now on prevent others from doing it as well? Because Bush, the Clintons and Obama sucked kleptocrat dick 24/7. As will the next president, if you don't get rid of Trump (+ the bad people in the duopoly that serve the donor class) the right way. Why are we choosing some kleptocrat schemes over others? Only because one outsider kleptocrat who upset the usual way of doing business, grabs women by the pussy?

To me Trump is the ugly face that we didn't see behind Obama's pretty mask.

Let's call for systemic changes. Trump is a golden opportunity to do so.

---

PS If Russia did successfully influence the elections (good luck with proving that, they didn't write the DNC mails or chose a horrible Democrat candidate), it would be a first, right? That would make it 80-1, according to the work done by Dov Levin that H2O world mentioned. If the score stays that way from now on, I think the world may become a better place.
Title: Re: Russiagate
Post by: sidd on April 30, 2017, 12:05:31 AM
I have previously commented on the Levin paper at

https://forum.arctic-sea-ice.net/index.php/topic,617.msg96462.html#msg96462

The score was 81-36 USA/USSR from 1946-2000

Levin does not discuss many CIA operations, such as Harold Wilson in the UK or  Gough Whitlam in Australia.

sidd
Title: Re: Russiagate
Post by: Neven on April 30, 2017, 12:38:15 AM
I meant it would be the first time some foreign entity tried to influence US elections, as far as we know. I know that the during the Cold War era the Soviet Union pulled the same shit. I can even understand up to some level that the US and the USSR did this back then. But we've come a long way since then, and maybe this would be a good time to stop it altogether.

BTW, latest Jimmy Dore Show video called, New Book Reveals Clinton Campaign Hatched Russia Hysteria To Cover For Losing:

! No longer available (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bDacXkU9MLc#)

He also has a great video showing how Trump has betrayed his voters so far:

! No longer available (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OztdO02h3To#)

That's the way to get a large part of the population on board to demand systemic changes. Not through 'grab 'em by the pussy' or 'Russia, Russia, Russia!'.
Title: Re: Russiagate
Post by: oren on April 30, 2017, 01:40:00 AM
JP, thanks for the "significant other" explanation, it helped me understand the problem better. I guess I've personally grown used to having a "cheater" as a ruler.
Title: Re: Russiagate
Post by: sidd on April 30, 2017, 01:46:47 AM
Re: " ... it would be the first time some foreign entity tried to influence US elections ... "

Mmm. What do you call the Nixon/Anna Chennault/Vietnam connection in 1968 election ?

http://www.bbc.com/news/magazine-21768668 (http://www.bbc.com/news/magazine-21768668)

Or Reagan election 1980 with Iran hostage release delay ?

https://consortiumnews.com/2014/04/09/reagan-bush-ties-to-iran-hostage-crisis/ (https://consortiumnews.com/2014/04/09/reagan-bush-ties-to-iran-hostage-crisis/)

sidd

Title: Re: Russiagate
Post by: H2O world on April 30, 2017, 04:48:31 AM
I meant it would be the first time some foreign entity tried to influence US elections, as far as we know. I know that the during the Cold War era the Soviet Union pulled the same shit. I can even understand up to some level that the US and the USSR did this back then. But we've come a long way since then, and maybe this would be a good time to stop it altogether.

BTW, latest Jimmy Dore Show video called, New Book Reveals Clinton Campaign Hatched Russia Hysteria To Cover For Losing:

! No longer available (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bDacXkU9MLc#)

He also has a great video showing how Trump has betrayed his voters so far:

! No longer available (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OztdO02h3To#)

That's the way to get a large part of the population on board to demand systemic changes. Not through 'grab 'em by the pussy' or 'Russia, Russia, Russia!'.


As I’m unknotting and organizing the data and information I have of the events of the last election year I cannot help but feel sense of apathy. My mind can't help but swing back to this intruding thought; The fact that a person will destroy herself or something else rather than surrender freedom shows how important freedom is. That is the foundation of what this country was built upon, and has slowly been chiseled away through the use of age old tools of church and state.

Im not sure if Russiagate deserves a forum at all. Is it not impossible to govern on such a grand scale when we have proven incapable of doing so, when the bigger enemy that is lurking at every corner is an overpopulated planet. Isaac Asimov is quoted as saying “Democracy cannot survive overpopulation” and I believe he is right. So what if we do find out who did what in this scandal I do not have faith that any drastic positive changes will be forthwith, it will be just another scandal to go down in the annals of history… unfortunately the last page of history with a “The End” on the page.

Al Bartlett “Democracy cannot survive overpopulation”
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wSSpwdO2wEk (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wSSpwdO2wEk)

THE MOST IMPORTANT VIDEO ON YOUTUBE… IMO
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O133ppiVnWY&list=RDO133ppiVnWY#t=1065 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O133ppiVnWY&list=RDO133ppiVnWY#t=1065)

Title: Re: Russiagate
Post by: Neven on April 30, 2017, 12:19:47 PM
Re: " ... it would be the first time some foreign entity tried to influence US elections ... "

Mmm. What do you call the Nixon/Anna Chennault/Vietnam connection in 1968 election ?

http://www.bbc.com/news/magazine-21768668 (http://www.bbc.com/news/magazine-21768668)

Or Reagan election 1980 with Iran hostage release delay ?

https://consortiumnews.com/2014/04/09/reagan-bush-ties-to-iran-hostage-crisis/ (https://consortiumnews.com/2014/04/09/reagan-bush-ties-to-iran-hostage-crisis/)

sidd

I wouldn't call them instances of "some foreign entity tried to influence US elections". Or are those articles saying that Vietnam and Iran influenced US elections? They're probably saying that American politicians abused events abroad to gain some domestic political goal. That's a whole different subject.

On topic: Is this a good example of how counterproductive Russiagate may prove to be:

! No longer available (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=551Nim7xH28#)

Wow...

Your plan better work, Buddy.  :P
Title: Re: Russiagate
Post by: Neven on April 30, 2017, 06:13:26 PM
This interview on TheRealNews YouTube channel is almost two months old (and somewhat longish), but it's about many elements of our discussions here. It's an interview with TRN chief editor, Paul Jay, about how TRN plans on reporting on the whole Russia-affair. Jay basically says that they will see how it plays out, but refuse to take the side of one oligarchic group over another (and how Trump has basically upset the 'natural' order of things).

! No longer available (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=htYnzi7ZB9k#)

I liked this bit towards the end:

Quote
We're not in this for partisan reasons. The partisan political angle just wants to hit him (Trump; N.) where it hurts. What does that mean? Where the media will pick up on it and make a big deal out of. We're far more interested in trying to talk to people who voted for Trump. And if you want to talk to people who voted for Trump, then just screaming about this stuff, which I think really everybody understands is quite secondary, it just means you're trying to trash the guy because you're pro-Democrat. We're not pro-Democrat, we're pro-people. So, we're trying to go after the things of substance.
Title: Re: Russiagate
Post by: Buddy on April 30, 2017, 06:17:16 PM
Quote
.....about how TRN plans on reporting on the whole Russia-affair. Jay basically says that they will see how it plays out, but refuse to take the side of one oligarchic group over another (and how Trump has basically upset the 'natural' order of things).

That worked well for the Germans in the 1930's.....just lay back and see what happens before you speak out.  What could POSSIBLY go wrong...?
Title: Re: Russiagate
Post by: Neven on April 30, 2017, 06:34:51 PM
Quote
.....about how TRN plans on reporting on the whole Russia-affair. Jay basically says that they will see how it plays out, but refuse to take the side of one oligarchic group over another (and how Trump has basically upset the 'natural' order of things).

That worked well for the Germans in the 1930's.....just lay back and see what happens before you speak out.  What could POSSIBLY go wrong...?

They speak out all right, but on things from Trump's policies that directly affect the people. They don't join the mainstream media in the McCarthyist gossip news that is so good for ratings, and gets liberals like you so worked up they can no longer think strategically. Watch the interview. What the guy says, makes sense.

If Russiagate boomerangs and it either strengthens Trump's position (aligning the establishment oligarchs behind him through some deals he'll offer them) or makes him a martyr, it might very well prove to have the same effect as the Reichstagsbrand.

So, give Russiagate 10-15% of the attention (also to decrease tensions with Russia), and focus the rest on his horrible policies, and how the Democratic Party needs to come clean so that it can present some real, transparent resistance and win back some of the ground lost after betraying the American people so blatantly.

Getting Trump impeached over this as soon as possible, is a losing strategy, Buddy. It's only pushing the interests of another group of kleptocrats. Stop cheering for one team and against another.

---

PS And let me just say that TheRealNews seems a legitimate source of information that should appeal to those worried about AGW (the main reason people come to this forum). Just check out how much videos (https://www.youtube.com/user/TheRealNews/videos) they have on the Climate March and AGW in general.
Title: Re: Russiagate
Post by: Buddy on April 30, 2017, 06:59:36 PM
What will Spicey do to "prepare the ground" for after May 8th?

May 8th is when Sally Yates goes to testify before the Senate Judiciary Committee.  Remember....she was INITIALLY SCHEDULED to testify before the HOUSE committee looking into the interference by the Russians into the US presidential election.  I would certainly have PREFERRED to see that.....but this actually may turn out better.

The House committee is co-chaired by a former prosecutor from California......Representative Adam Schiff.  He seems to be very good....very methodical.....very thorough.....and very aggressive.  This may actually be BETTER to have the House question Yates AFTER the US Senate questions her.  This will basically give Schiff a "second bite at the apple" (the first bite being the Senate) when the House committee gets around to questioning her.  Not sure WHEN the House is going to interview her yet (is has been announced as "after May 2nd).

But now Spicey has ONE WEEK to prepare for the upcoming Senate testimony of Yates....where Yates will substantiate various things that Trump, Pence, Spicey, and others have ALREADY LIED ABOUT.    This means that the Trump group will have to reply to a LOT OF QUESTIONS next week AFTER May 8th.  How will they reply to Mike Pence lying about the knowledge he had of Michael Flynn....although Pence is already ON TAPE as stating he had NO KNOWLEDGE.

From a "psychology standpoint" it will be interesting to see what Spicey does.  He could....:

1)  Say that "Pence forgot" about that...
2)  Say that Pence and Trump.......really didn't mean what they said...
3)  Say that Trump and company.....needed to keep it silent since it was about national security...

We should know more about how Spicey and Trump will answer next weeks questions THIS COMING WEEK by how they "prepare the ground" ahead of time.

How will they answer the question:  "Why did you wait 3 weeks AFTER Sally Yates told you that Michael Flynn had lied about what he had told the Russian ambassador....to fire him?"

The Trump team KNOWS some of the questions that will be coming their way next week....and I expect them to "lay the groundwork" for next week's lies THIS WEEK.

It should prove to be enlightening......

I'll be laying out a timeline WITH VIDEO CLIP LINKS of the RussiaGate issue.  I hope to have that done by the end of NEXT WEEKEND....before the Sally Yates testimony.  That will give people a "visual" of what we KNOW so far.  I'm trying to decide where I "house that"....it may be on a special FACEBOOK PAGE.....not sure right now.  But I will provide the link and I will update it from time-to-time. (NOTE:  There are SEVERAL good, thorough time-lines out there already....but what I am talking about is something a little more "concise".....).  The one I have been using most is by Thomas Wood):

https://drive.google.com/file/d/0By1TN7FzSbdQVWl5emlCVkh1Mms/view

Again....this is going to be a LONG PROCESS.  This is MUCH more complicated than Watergate....and the repercussions are much more significant as well.










Title: Re: Russiagate
Post by: Buddy on April 30, 2017, 09:39:52 PM
Here is some information from "The Palmer Report".  Look for corroboration in the near future (read:   days and weeks...not months).

http://www.palmerreport.com/opinion/new-donald-trump-russia-grand-jury-details-hint-at-the-targets/2513/ (http://www.palmerreport.com/opinion/new-donald-trump-russia-grand-jury-details-hint-at-the-targets/2513/)

This will be an interesting beginning to what will be the start of the "criminal phase" of RussiaGate...

Title: Re: Russiagate
Post by: sidd on April 30, 2017, 09:41:23 PM
Re: 1968 election. Nixon conspired with S. Vietnam to sabotage the Paris talks to hurt his opposition.

Re: 1980. Reagan did the same with Iran to delay hostage release until after the election to hurt his opposition.

Are these not cases of foreign nations conspiring with one candidate in a presidential election to hurt the other ?

sidd

PS. This should have been posted to the russiagate thread. Was posted by error elsewhere.
Title: Re: Russiagate
Post by: Neven on April 30, 2017, 10:02:16 PM
Re: 1968 election. Nixon conspired with S. Vietnam to sabotage the Paris talks to hurt his opposition.

Re: 1980. Reagan did the same with Iran to delay hostage release until after the election to hurt his opposition.

Are these not cases of foreign nations conspiring with one candidate in a presidential election to hurt the other ?

Okay, you have a point. But it seems to me that the analogy would be stronger if the Vietnamese/Iranians had gone up to Nixon/Reagan and said: We'll do this and that to make sure you become president. Vietnam and Iran didn't meddle with US elections, Reagan and Nixon did.

However, the mainstream media has framed Russiagate as foreign meddling, not as a presidential candidate using some international issue through a small party/country to achieve a certain goal. It's possible that this has all been Trump's brilliant idea and he approached Putin, but as long as we don't know, it's a case of chicken or egg.

Added to that is that Russia is much larger than Vietnam or Iran, and there's the historical spectre of the Cold War (which is why Clinton's PR people advised Russophobia as a means to an end).

Title: Re: Russiagate
Post by: TerryM on May 01, 2017, 12:35:36 AM
I'm not sure I see similarities between Russiagate and Watergate, excepting of course the suffix. This certainly feels much more like McCarthyism and the impeachment of Bill Clinton.


Russia is presumed to be "The Evil Enemy".
"The Evil Enemy" has subverted America, American Politics & The will of The American People.
The American People will root out and expose The Evil Enemy in our midst by holding hearings!


Before his inauguration, the investigations began.
Our patriotic media beat the drums incessantly, some would say hysterically.
No thought is given to who his replacement would be if they succeed. President Gore would have been almost as disturbing to the right as President Pence will be to the left.
The target, and the allegations swing wildly, was it Flynn in Moscow, or Manafort in Kiev, was it Hillary's Whitewater or Bill's dalliances?


Watergate, in contrast, was a more focused investigation into who had orchestrated the attempted burglary of the DNC headquarters, who ordered it, and who attempted to cover it up.


No foreign influence involved.
No Russian connection.
Nothing outside the beltway.


I think more clarity will be found if we compare Trump's plight to Bill Clinton's problems, and the Russophobia emerging, to the Red Scares of generations past.


Clinton was hobbled by investigations through both terms, and it's the fact that he did win a second term that should concern us. Many voters simply believed that TPTB were picking on him, then voted as a means of expressing their displeasure with TPTB. This mirrors the demographic that brought Trump to power in the first place, and investigating him for having won the election, rather than for choices he's made since, will only serve to strengthen his bond with his base.


McCarthy played directly on peoples fears, pushed away a powerful ally, and almost ended it all.
It's an easy game to play, but it can go so wrong so easily.
Arguably the American Union movement was driven into the hands of gangsters when the government abandoned them as "Pinkos". Beyond doubt we killed many good leaders as we propped up despots willing to Hate the Commie Bastards.
My generation dutifully ducked 'neath our desks, pledged our allegiance with an outstretched, inverted palm, and cheered as we turned another North Korean city to rubble.


Clinton survived his impeachment, Bomber Joe isn't remembered with fondness, Why do we want to do this again?


Terry
Title: Re: Russiagate
Post by: mati on May 01, 2017, 02:33:45 AM
Terry M
why are you against any investigation?
hmmmm??
Title: Re: Russiagate
Post by: TerryM on May 01, 2017, 02:55:18 AM
Terry M
why are you against any investigation?
hmmmm??
mati


You find so many sentences of mine that I have no memory of ever writing. Great catch !!


Terry
Title: Re: Russiagate
Post by: sidd on May 01, 2017, 03:35:28 AM
Re: Parallels with 1968,1980:

Agreed the analogy only goes so far. In 68, Johnson knew, but suppressed the evidence. It is not clear if Carter knew in 1980. Obama was told of contacts between Trump campaign and Russian interests, and chose to publicize and pursue.

sidd
Title: Re: Russiagate
Post by: sidd on May 01, 2017, 06:38:45 AM
If anyone wants to skip more historical stories, please ignore this post.

Now that I think about it, foreign meddling in US elections goes back to the 1930s. Remember the House UnAmerican Affairs Committee that McCarthy used ? Few now remember that the committee was previously the McCormick-Dickstein committee and Smedley Butler (yes, the "War is A Racket" guy) testified to them about the attempted coup against Roosevelt in 1934.

https://en.wikisource.org/wiki/McCormack%E2%80%93Dickstein_Committee

These guys behind the coup attempt  were up to their necks in reindustrializing Germany at the time, look at Foster Dulles, Prescott Bush, Thyssen, Warburg and the rest.

In 1936 election the same guys, in the words of the US Ambassador to Germany

"In 1936, William Dodd, the U.S. Ambassador to Germany, wrote a letter to President Roosevelt in which he stated,

    A clique of U.S. industrialists is hell-bent to bring a fascist state to supplant our democratic government and is working closely with the fascist regime in Germany and Italy. I have had plenty of opportunity in my post in Berlin to witness how close some of our American ruling families are to the Nazi regime. ... A prominent executive of one of the largest corporations, told me point blank that he would be ready to take definite action to bring fascism into America if President Roosevelt continued his progressive policies. Certain American industrialists had a great deal to do with bringing fascist regimes into being in both Germany and Italy. They extended aid to help Fascism occupy the seat of power, and they are helping to keep it there. Propagandists for fascist groups try to dismiss the fascist scare. We should be aware of the symptoms. When industrialists ignore laws designed for social and economic progress they will seek recourse to a fascist state when the institutions of our government compel them to comply with the provisions.[43][44][45] "

So I can believe that the Nazis were trying to undermine Roosevelt. And he knew it.

sidd




Title: Re: Russiagate
Post by: budmantis on May 01, 2017, 07:15:57 AM
Sidd:

Thanks for the history lesson! As Arte Johnson would say on "Rowan and Martin's laugh-in" back in the late 60's and early 70's, VERY INTERESTING.

BudM
Title: Re: Russiagate
Post by: Neven on May 01, 2017, 09:38:18 AM
From the Washington Times (I don't know if that's a reliable source):

Quote
Ex-spy admits anti-Trump dossier unverified, blames Buzzfeed for publishing

Christopher Steele, the former British spy who wrote the infamous anti-Donald Trump dossier, acknowledges that a sensational charge his sources made about a tech company CEO and Democratic Party hacking is unverified.

In a court filing, Mr. Steele also says his accusations against the president and his aides about a supposed Russian hacking conspiracy were never supposed to be made public, much less posted in full on a website for the world to see on Jan. 10.

He defends himself by saying he was betrayed by his client and that he followed proper internal channels by giving the dossier to Sen. John McCain, Arizona Republican, to alert the U.S. government.

Mr. Steele has not spoken publicly about his disputed opposition research project, but for the first time he is being forced to talk in a London court through his attorneys.

Barristers for Mr. Steele and his Orbis Business Intelligence firm filed their first defense against a defamation lawsuit brought by Aleksej Gubarev, chief executive of the network solutions firm XBT Holdings.

Mr. Steele acknowledges that the part of the 35-page dossier that identified Mr. Gubarev as a rogue hacker came from “unsolicited intelligence” and “raw intelligence” that “needed to be analyzed and further investigated/verified.”

More here (http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2017/apr/25/christopher-steele-admits-dossier-charge-unverifie/?1=1).
Title: Re: Russiagate
Post by: johnm33 on May 01, 2017, 11:05:12 AM
More history 
Search the connection between Prescott Bush and Hitler, as to Roosevelt, http://www.ihr.org/jhr/v04/v04p135_Weber.html (http://www.ihr.org/jhr/v04/v04p135_Weber.html)
Title: Re: Russiagate
Post by: Zeug Gezeugt on May 01, 2017, 02:39:14 PM
And people in the US aren't really filled with "angst concerning their ongoing loss of hegemonic power and the fact the Russians dare to act for their own national interests"

The people of course are not the elites, by simple definition, for elites are the elite minority who rule over the majority of the people, the hoi polloi, as it has always been. It is the business of the elites to be concerned about the hegemonic power they wield and the rise of geopolitical competitors to that unchallenged power. The hoi polloi need only be concerned with whatever the elites need them to be concerned about, such as external enemies for example, and what better to bring the herd in than a Siberian wolf in sheeps clothing?

And yes, the US elites led by their insane Neoconservatives are currently in a blind panic due to the fact that the US war machine has suffered a major geopolitical defeat in Syria at the hands of the Russian political, diplomatic and military elites. The US regime change war against the secular, democratically elected and UN recognised government of Syria has been defeated, Obama's "Assad must go!" edict is now an empty threat backed up by technically criminal but tactically and strategically useless violence such as the Tomahawk missile strike.

To make matters worse, the Russian Federation has defeated the US regime change war by the technically legal use of force aiding the lawful government of Syria. Everything the US does in Syria however, from training and arming Sunni jihadist rebel forces who kill Syrian civilians, police and army, to actually bombing the Syrian Army at Deir Ezzor, is technically illegal. The US war machine in Syria is an openly criminal enterprise. US wars since 911 have all been technically criminal. The hoi polloi's applause for Trump's big bombs and useless missiles is applause for vicious criminality and everyone on the planet can see this now quite plainly.

Thus US hegemony is failing, its executive via its corporate media spreads increasingly outlandish falsehoods and glorifies criminal acts of violence for the sole benefit of the US domestic audience while vilifying imaginary external enemies, Putlers one and all. But it's the US that has been careering around the globe threatening violence, destroying societies and slaughtering many hundreds of thousands of mostly women, children and the elderly for the last 15 years of the GWOT. And with the collapse of hegemony that truth is finally now becoming utterable. The emperor really does have no clothes, all s/he has is a large bloodied knife like a common murderer.

And its that fact that is causing such angst amongst the US elites, for if they can't control the exceptional narrative they risk losing all control of the hoi polloi from whom they derive their power in the first place. So what better than a bedtime story for y'all, about nasty Russkies and evil Trumps, and make sure to check for reds under that bed! Cos where there's fire there's surely smoke, even without evidence, along with a sucker born every minute.
Title: Re: Russiagate
Post by: Archimid on May 01, 2017, 03:37:30 PM
Quote
It's possible that this has all been Trump's brilliant idea and he approached Putin, but as long as we don't know, it's a case of chicken or egg.

I think the chance this was Trump's idea are remote to non-existent. Trump is not a 4D chess jedi grand master. He is an unethical mediocre millionaire. Putin and their intelligence services are about as close as global 4D chess players as you can get.

 Trump is a merely another pawn in a much bigger game. He was heavily influenced by people like  Flynn to enact policy that would make Trump richer than ever, regardless of the cost to the american people. Those policies also happen to align nicely with Russian expansionist tendencies. As a man slave to his greed, Trump can't see the far reaching consequences of his actions, only the profits.

He was lobbied by foreign powers (powers with interest contrary to that of the American people) and they completely failed to disclose the influence.  If that influence was so innocent, why they didn't disclose it? Why, in fact, they attempted to hide it? Their foolishness shows through this action. They should have assumed they were being watched. Disclosing the contacts would have been the smart thing to do, but they are fools. Evil, determined fools, but fools nonetheless.

At the end of the day the only argument against "Russiagate" that makes at least some sense is that the US has meddled with the election of other countries many times and with nefarious consequences to almost everyone of them. I understand why some people would get a sense of justice out of this. 

However this is going to be a very expensive lesson for all of humanity, including Trump, Putin and fossil fuel interests. 
Title: Re: Russiagate
Post by: gerontocrat on May 01, 2017, 06:41:43 PM
While the USA gets its knickers in a twist on Russiagate, Russia pursues its longterm game plan, e.g. in the Arctic. The Victory Parade on May 9th will show the public some of its latest military hardware especially designed to operate in Arctic conditions.
The US Federal Government and Congress remain dysfunctional and the world moves on.
Title: Re: Russiagate
Post by: Neven on May 01, 2017, 10:59:51 PM
Here (https://www.theverge.com/2017/5/1/15504648/oliver-stone-vladimir-putin-documentary-showtime)'s one for your watch list, Buddy. ;-)
Title: Re: Russiagate
Post by: Buddy on May 03, 2017, 01:03:05 PM
Less than one week till Donnie's worst week in office.  Senate committee questioning of Sally Yates is next week.....and my DVR is already set to record it (10:00 EST May 8th CSPAN).

Pressure is CONTINUING to get to Donnie.  I see he was tweeting about Comey and Clinton last night:

"FBI Director Comey was the best thing that ever happened to Hillary Clinton in that he gave her a free pass for many bad deeds! The phony Trump/Russia story was an excuse used by the Democrats as justification for losing the election. Perhaps Trump just ran a great campaign," Trump wrote in a series of messages.

Yesterday was yet another hint of what is to come.  Mick Mulvaney....former Congressman from South Carolina and current budget director for Donnie gave a "briefing" yesterday.  Apparently Donnie was so upset that he didn't get what he wanted in the spending bill.....that he sent Mulvany to do a "briefing" and "show" that the Republicans got what they wanted (they DIDN'T:  No funding for wall, Dem's got funding for EPA, health issues, planned parenthood, etc).    SO....Donnie had Mulvaney go to give DONNIE'S view of things....and Spicey didn't give the daily briefing AT ALL.  Here is a 60 second clip as Spicey runs out of the briefing room after Mulvaney is finished....with the journalists yelling at him:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q4drnAX63sY (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q4drnAX63sY)

This is just the beginning of what will become the bazar over the coming days/weeks/months.  Spicey is going to have to make up a LOT OF SHIT to get through his briefings.  I actually think that Trump's team will in short order move to the strategy of:

"Look.....we lied....but it wasn't that important.  The American people don't care....they just want us to work.  OK."


Next week the fun begins.........

Title: Re: Russiagate
Post by: Martin Gisser on May 03, 2017, 04:59:33 PM
Quote
It's possible that this has all been Trump's brilliant idea and he approached Putin, but as long as we don't know, it's a case of chicken or egg.

I think the chance this was Trump's idea are remote to non-existent.
Not so remote it seems. And this is what makes Russiagate so hot.

https://patribotics.blog/2017/04/29/sources-boris-epshteyn-paid-russian-hackers-for-both-team-trump-and-fsb/ (https://patribotics.blog/2017/04/29/sources-boris-epshteyn-paid-russian-hackers-for-both-team-trump-and-fsb/)
Quote
Sources linked to the intelligence community say (...)
the indictment on April 20th of Levashov in the US district court in Connecticut (where an FBI counterintelligence division is based) represents the first concrete move in court that openly leads towards the impeachment of Donald Trump and the prosecution of dozens of members of his team – because this hacker, the sources suggest, was compensated by Team Trump and the FSB jointly, and Team Trump, sources say, know it.
(...)

Trump Tower was a “command and control” center for the Kehlios botnet, dismantled by the FBI;

That the “Trump server” with a Trump Tower IP address, that was communicating with servers owned by Alfa Bank in Russia, and with Spectrum Health, had the data packets it sent opened on the hour by human members of Trump’s data team, located near to Trump Tower;

http://www.rawstory.com/2017/04/uk-given-memos-indicating-the-trump-organization-paid-russia-hackers-report/ (http://www.rawstory.com/2017/04/uk-given-memos-indicating-the-trump-organization-paid-russia-hackers-report/)
Quote
Last December, the U.K. government was reportedly given extensive records of Trump campaign officials’ interactions with the Kremlin.

The Guardian reported former MI6 agent Christopher Steele’s infamous dossier about possible collusion between the Trump campaign and Russia was first given to the UK intelligence services. These documents reportedly contain records of payments from the Trump campaign to banks of Russian cyber trolls tasked with spreading disinformation ahead of the 2016 election.

https://patribotics.blog/2017/04/23/did-donald-trump-commission-russias-hack-of-the-us-election-himself/ (https://patribotics.blog/2017/04/23/did-donald-trump-commission-russias-hack-of-the-us-election-himself/)
Quote
Sources linked to the intelligence community say that Donald Trump accepted laundered Russian money which, through shell companies, supported Russian hackers as they attacked America – and then supported Wikileaks and Julian Assange as he published the results of those hacks.
(...)
 Peter Chayanov (one of his many aliases) is a Russian hacker who owns a hacking and spamming company called Hostkey. Upon being outed on Twitter by myself, Bailey and @OpFerguson, Chayanov deleted his account.

Hostkey was revealed firstly to have provided Wikileaks servers in Russia one week before the DNC emails were published, and secondly, to have been given Wikileaks SSL keys, allowing the tracking of any readers of the site, and allowing Putin to deanonymize any past or present leakers or whistleblowers who supplied Julian Assange with documents.

This, of course, makes Assange far more than a publisher – he is now a supplier of intelligence to the Russian state.
(...)

The apparently fake shell companies sit in the listing alongside another, Ontera, which according to an exclusive report by a Czech investigative journalist, was a fake company used solely to wash Russian money through Cypriot banks.
(...)

Will take some time for other media to check and untangle all this.
Title: Re: Russiagate
Post by: Archimid on May 03, 2017, 06:25:18 PM
I don't doubt that he knew about it, but I doubt it was his idea. It was probably the idea of Page, Flynn or others. Still, that information that you posted is new to me. I would have to re-evaluate my position.
Title: Re: Russiagate
Post by: AbruptSLR on May 03, 2017, 06:32:40 PM
Will take some time for other media to check and untangle all this.

Per the linked article entitled: "UK was given details of alleged contacts between Trump campaign and Moscow", the MSM is following this line of evidence:

https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2017/apr/28/trump-russia-intelligence-uk-government-m16-kremlin (https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2017/apr/28/trump-russia-intelligence-uk-government-m16-kremlin)

Extract: "In December the UK government was given reports by former MI6 officer Christopher Steele on possible collusion between Trump camp and the Kremlin."

See also:

https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2017/jan/11/trump-russia-dossier-explainer-details (https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2017/jan/11/trump-russia-dossier-explainer-details)

&

http://www.rawstory.com/2017/04/imprisoned-russian-pedophile-appears-to-be-linked-to-hack-of-dnc-computers/ (http://www.rawstory.com/2017/04/imprisoned-russian-pedophile-appears-to-be-linked-to-hack-of-dnc-computers/)
Title: Re: Russiagate
Post by: TerryM on May 03, 2017, 07:39:35 PM
Sooo
A convicted Russian pedophile with links to American pedophiles, who has been doing "hard time" without access to anything but a land line since 2013, is the connecting link between Trump and Putin.
His name isn't the same as the one provided by Steele, but Steele probably made a mistake because he's only been an expert working with the Cyrillic alphabet for a few decades. It's all Greek to me, but if McClatchy says it then it must be so.


That a twice convicted pedophile could have gained access to DNC files so closely linked to Weiner's significant other is troubling.
Thank god for these brave, (non-wikileak affiliated), investigative reporters.


http://www.rawstory.com/2017/04/imprisoned-russian-pedophile-appears-to-be-linked-to-hack-of-dnc-computers/ (http://www.rawstory.com/2017/04/imprisoned-russian-pedophile-appears-to-be-linked-to-hack-of-dnc-computers/)


Terry
Title: Re: Russiagate
Post by: Martin Gisser on May 03, 2017, 11:17:27 PM
Steele probably made a mistake because he's only been an expert working with the Cyrillic alphabet for a few decades.
Puzzling indeed. Perhaps he dictated the dossier. Perhaps it is intentional obfuscation (I tend toward that explanation). The misspellings can't be simply incompetent transliteration of Cyrillic: Making Kapsovich out of Капцугович requires leaving out 2 letters that even someone who only knows Greek would note.
Title: Re: Russiagate
Post by: Buddy on May 04, 2017, 03:19:09 AM
I watched some of the clips from the Comey testimony today at the Senate Judiciary Committee.  I haven't watched all of it....but a couple of the clips looked "interesting."

I think the MOST interesting one that I have seen SO FAR.....is Al Franken laying out the case for why the FBI should be looking into Donnie's tax returns.  And he asked Comey if they WERE looking at Donnie's tax returns.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D5H-DRw-9wo (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D5H-DRw-9wo)

It's difficult NOT to read things into Comey's "no" answers.  Clearly....there are questions that he just CAN NOT ANSWER in a public setting....and there are things he can NOT talk about.

BUT...IF....the FBI has "probable cause"....I believe they CAN subpoena Donnie's tax returns.  I'm NOT an attorney...so don't take my word on that.  But I will have to dig into that in more detail.

I'm going to look at some of the other clips.....or look at the whole recorded session if I get a chance. 

 
Title: Re: Russiagate
Post by: TerryM on May 04, 2017, 04:02:13 PM
Susan Rice refuses Senate "offer" to defend her claims that Russia interfered in the recent election.


http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2017-05-03/susan-rice-refuses-senate-request-testify-russian-hacking-allegations (http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2017-05-03/susan-rice-refuses-senate-request-testify-russian-hacking-allegations)


Lying to the press is one thing, lying under oath can get you into trouble.


Terry
Title: Re: Russiagate
Post by: Jim Pettit on May 04, 2017, 04:19:47 PM
Susan Rice refuses Senate "offer" to defend her claims that Russia interfered in the recent election.

http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2017-05-03/susan-rice-refuses-senate-request-testify-russian-hacking-allegations (http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2017-05-03/susan-rice-refuses-senate-request-testify-russian-hacking-allegations)

Lying to the press is one thing, lying under oath can get you into trouble.

Terry

Yeah, Zero Hedge isn't the only media outlet in a spittle-flecked tizzy of false indignation this morning, calling for their smelling salts and fainting couches over Rice's rightful refusal to participate in Graham's underhanded GOP charade. The issue is TrumpCo's collusion with Russia, and much as most on the right may wish to divert attention from that through phony distractions (such as Trump Tower being bugged by Obama with Rice's help), not everyone is willing to play along. From Rice's letter to Graham and Whitehouse (https://assets.documentcloud.org/documents/3699576/Susan-Rice-Letter.pdf) (sent via her lawyer):

Quote
"While Ambassador Rice commends the Subcommittee’s efforts to examine this matter of
extraordinary national significance, it is extremely rare for the Congress to request the testimony
of a former senior advisor to the President given the longstanding and well-recognized separation
of powers concerns at issue. Moreover, Chairman Graham’s invitation was extended only after
the hearing was noticed, less than two weeks before the hearing was scheduled to occur, and
without consultation with Ambassador Rice, a professional courtesy that would customarily be
extended to any witness. Notwithstanding the significance of these concerns, Ambassador Rice
is prepared to assist Congressional inquiries into Russian election interference because of the
important national interests at stake, provided they are conducted in a bipartisan manner, and as
appropriate, in classified session
.

In this case, however, Senator Whitehouse has informed us by letter that he did not agree
to Chairman Graham’s invitation to Ambassador Rice, a significant departure from the bipartisan
invitations extended to other witnesses. Under these circumstances, Ambassador Rice
respectfully declines Senator Graham’s invitation to testify
.

Again, and as Ambassador Rice has stated publicly, she supports and is committed to
assisting the bipartisan Congressional inquiries into Russian interference in the 2016 election,
given the utmost importance of this matter to our national security
.

Any objective person at this point sees just how much time and energy the GOP is spending to take people's minds off of Trump's illegitimate candidacy. They can jump up and down and point and hoot and holler, and none of that changes the fact that any collusion will be outed.
Title: Re: Russiagate
Post by: Buddy on May 04, 2017, 04:21:55 PM
Quote
Susan Rice refuses Senate "offer" to defend her claims that Russia interfered in the recent election.

http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2017-05-03/susan-rice-refuses-senate-request-testify-russian-hacking-allegations (http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2017-05-03/susan-rice-refuses-senate-request-testify-russian-hacking-allegations)

Lying to the press is one thing, lying under oath can get you into trouble.

I wonder why:

1)  Lindsay Graham sent out the invitation WITHOUT consulting the other co-chair on the committee from the Democratic side?

2)  I wonder why Graham would request Ambassador Rice to appear ON THE SAME DAY AS SALLY YATES?    I'm SURE that Senator Graham had no intention of "muddying the waters" by having Ambassador Rice testify about an issue (Michael Flynn lying) that she has no information on. ;)

Personally....I would be MORE THAN TICKLED to see Ambassador Rice testify AT ANOTHER DATE (given that both the Democratic co-chair also agrees to her testifying).

 
Title: Re: Russiagate
Post by: Buddy on May 04, 2017, 05:22:26 PM
The first "criminal action" in the RussiaGate fiasco coming?  As reported by several "secondary sources" over the past few days.....there is the possibility of a couple of grand jury's wrapping up their activity in the coming days/weeks.

http://www.palmerreport.com/opinion/keith-olbermann-grand-jury-trump-russia/2584/ (http://www.palmerreport.com/opinion/keith-olbermann-grand-jury-trump-russia/2584/)

This doesn't come as a surprise to me....this would just be the FIRST OF MANY that will be coming over the next 12+ months....



Title: Re: Russiagate
Post by: TerryM on May 04, 2017, 07:22:01 PM
They'll be fine - as long as they don't ask for Rice's testimony. 8)
Terry
Title: Re: Russiagate
Post by: Buddy on May 04, 2017, 08:11:12 PM
Quote
They'll be fine - as long as they don't ask for Rice's testimony. 8)
Terry

I didn't hear about that.  What was it that Susan Rice lied about Terry?
Title: Re: Russiagate
Post by: TerryM on May 04, 2017, 09:44:23 PM
More concerned about testifying under oath than testilying 8)


Terry
Title: Re: Russiagate
Post by: Buddy on May 04, 2017, 10:43:41 PM
Quote
More concerned about testifying under oath than testilying 8)


So she didn't lie about anything?  I'm not a Susan Rice expert....I thought you were suggesting that she HAD lied before on something.  That is why I was asking.
Title: Re: Russiagate
Post by: Archimid on May 05, 2017, 12:40:06 AM
LOL Jeff Sessions lied under oath about meeting with Russians. But that's just fine. This is the new america, where the law is the law but only if you are on the wrong team.
Title: Re: Russiagate
Post by: TerryM on May 05, 2017, 01:31:09 AM
Obama is openly influencing the French elections again. Hope this works out better than his hectoring the Brits about the danger of pulling out of the EU.
It's not as if he doesn't attempt to interfere with foreign elections, he's just not very good at it.


Terry
Title: Re: Russiagate
Post by: Martin Gisser on May 05, 2017, 01:57:10 AM
Quote
More concerned about testifying under oath than testilying 8)


So she didn't lie about anything?  I'm not a Susan Rice expert....I thought you were suggesting that she HAD lied before on something.  That is why I was asking.
The Rice stuff is a Republican red herring (did I type "bullshit"?). Don't waste neurons and time on that, Buddy.
Title: Re: Russiagate
Post by: TerryM on May 05, 2017, 02:22:18 AM
The Rice stuff is a Republican red herring (did I type "bullshit"?). Don't waste neurons and time on that, Buddy.


I tend to distrust any government employee that declines a senate "invitation" to testify. - Have any other government employees ever refused such invitations?
AFAIK Susan was an employee of the government, not of the DNC. If so the party affiliation of those offering the "invitation" should not be material. Didn't her cousin testify in front of a hostile senate panel, or was that a congressional probe?


If Russia was doing nefarious things during the recent election, wouldn't sworn testimony related to this be important?
This Democrat is curious.
Terry
Title: Re: Russiagate
Post by: Martin Gisser on May 05, 2017, 03:25:01 AM
The Rice stuff is a Republican red herring (did I type "bullshit"?). Don't waste neurons and time on that, Buddy.


I tend to distrust any government employee that declines a senate "invitation" to testify. - Have any other government employees ever refused such invitations?
She was invited by the Rep chair only. (There's the scandal, if any.) Plus, the Dem chair (Whitehouse, one of the rare sane minds in the D.C. circus) confirmed she was right to decline. Anyhow, the Rice story is an old and not even anymore smelly red herring.
Title: Re: Russiagate
Post by: Archimid on May 05, 2017, 05:52:23 AM
TerryM, Obama has the right to openly influence whatever he wants. That's free speech and that's how great people change the world in a civilized manner. Are you really telling me that you see no difference between openly making your opinion known and covertly waging a propaganda campaign using illegally hacked information and coordinated fake news?

I just can't understand your logic or moral perspective. How is openly speaking inmoral, unethical or  illegal?

Title: Re: Russiagate
Post by: TerryM on May 05, 2017, 06:21:26 AM
Yea
I've always found that news events that occur on a Wednesday are far too passe to discuss the following Thursday.
Short attention spans aside, it appears that Susan will be facing a subpoena. Her testimony will in fact be extracted while she's under oath, unless she pleads the 5th, which is highly unlikely.


http://www.theblaze.com/news/2017/05/04/trey-gowdy-well-subpoena-susan-rice-if-we-have-to/ (http://www.theblaze.com/news/2017/05/04/trey-gowdy-well-subpoena-susan-rice-if-we-have-to/)


From the above it appears that others beyond the senate subcommittee chair wish to hear Rice under oath. Personally I'm more curious as to why she declined the invite, (under oath) than anything she's liable to say.


That said, isn't this another example of the arrogance of Corporate Democrats? Further, if she is so divorced from reality that she actually believed she could simply refuse to testify, she was probably a terrible choice as a security adviser, let alone the US ambassador to the UN.


Terry
Title: Re: Russiagate
Post by: budmantis on May 05, 2017, 07:02:13 AM
Obama is openly influencing the French elections again. Hope this works out better than his hectoring the Brits about the danger of pulling out of the EU.
It's not as if he doesn't attempt to interfere with foreign elections, he's just not very good at it.


Terry

Hi Terry:

I read that Obama weighed in on his choice in the French election. Don't see a problem with that, just stating his opinion. How is he interfering with foreign elections?

BudM
Title: Re: Russiagate
Post by: TerryM on May 05, 2017, 07:06:38 AM
TerryM, Obama has the right to openly influence whatever he wants. That's free speech and that's how great people change the world in a civilized manner. Are you really telling me that you see no difference between openly making your opinion known and covertly waging a propaganda campaign using illegally hacked information and coordinated fake news?

I just can't understand your logic or moral perspective. How is openly speaking inmoral, unethical or  illegal?


Obama had every right to attempt to influence whatever election he wishes. I thought it was strange when he went to great lengths to insist that his earlier phone call was not an attempt to sway the French vote. That was less than truthful.


Overtly and covertly every election held has been interfered with. What made the last one unusual was that the losers blamed their loss on the influence of someone half way around the world. That probably isn't unique, but it certainly is unusual.
I've written mentioning a very few of the egregious examples of the USofA,s messing with the elections of friendly nations and of foes, and was told that just because we do it to others is no reason to excuse others from doing it to us.
Fair enough,
Would examples of other nations interfering with each other's elections be more to the point? Would examples of friendly or evil nations covertly or overtly helping Democrats, or Republicans, or Whigs, or Torys meet your moral equivalency?


Fake News, Hacked Information??? you missed "bots". These are buzz words, memes placed into the discourse in order to obfuscate, not to enlighten.
When Obama told the Brits that they'd be stripped of their trade rights - That was "Fake News". it was also an overt threat that wasn't well received. I know that occurred more than a day ago and that you consider it "Old News", not worthy of consideration. Could I point out that the election was held so long ago, back in 2016, and that the hoary mists of antiquity have wafted through, driving out that new news smell.


Get rid of Hillary's henchmen. Nominate someone better than Trump, (not too high a bar), and you may find overt and covert help pouring in from all over the world.


Terry
edit:
budm
Hope the first paragraph explains my position.

Title: Re: Russiagate
Post by: budmantis on May 05, 2017, 07:10:49 AM
The Rice stuff is a Republican red herring (did I type "bullshit"?). Don't waste neurons and time on that, Buddy.

This Democrat is curious.
Terry

Seriously Terry, I don't understand why you have an axe to grind with Susan Rice. The Republican chair asked her to testify without the ranking Democratic member even knowing. With all due respect, I think you like to argue for the sake of arguing. OTOH, I've got to say, you're pretty good at it!

Regards,

BudM
Title: Re: Russiagate
Post by: TerryM on May 05, 2017, 07:16:27 AM
The Rice stuff is a Republican red herring (did I type "bullshit"?). Don't waste neurons and time on that, Buddy.

This Democrat is curious.
Terry




Seriously Terry, I don't understand why you have an axe to grind with Susan Rice. The Republican chair asked her to testify without the ranking Democratic member even knowing. With all due respect, I think you like to argue for the sake of arguing. OTOH, I've got to say, you're pretty good at it!

Regards,

BudM


Moi???  ;)
Terry
Title: Re: Russiagate
Post by: budmantis on May 05, 2017, 07:23:54 AM

Moi???  ;)
Terry
[/quote]

Oui, Toi!

How did you know I was of French Canadian descent?

BudM
Title: Re: Russiagate
Post by: Buddy on May 05, 2017, 01:43:35 PM
Quote
The Rice stuff is a Republican red herring (did I type "bullshit"?). Don't waste neurons and time on that, Buddy.

I won't.  I know about Susan Rice.....I was "baiting him."

On a different subject.....I had previously said that both RussiaGate and global warming.  Thanks to the US House Of Representatives.....the Democrat's have a THIRD LEG to the "stool" with which to beat the Republicans:  Healthcare.

That was awfully nice of the Republicans to pass a horrible bill in the House.  We have yet to see what comes out of the Senate......and reconciled with the House.  Whatever is "finalized" several months down the road, will be "what is remembered."

The Dem's just need to remember to come to come up with SOLUTIONS as best they can (while they are the minority party).   And that applies to healthcare AND global warming.  Some of those things can be done on a statewide or regional basis.  And at the same time....remind voters of the missteps of their Republican counterparts.

 

Title: Re: Russiagate
Post by: Buddy on May 05, 2017, 02:54:33 PM
A couple things that I had noted a couple months ago:

1)  RussiaGate will make Watergate look like childsplay
2)  It will be much broader and deeper than anyone expects

Over the last few days....there has been a lot of "chatter" about that...as news of 2 grand jury's that are allegedly under way (they are) and approaching completion.  We will get corroboration in the coming days/weeks....  in the US....we apparently have smarter criminals than in some other countries.  Apparently in other countries....the criminals come forward willingly...and then you prosecute.  In the US.....we have what is called a "grand jury".  A grand jury is:

"A panel of citizens that is convened by a court to decide whether it is appropriate for the government to indict (proceed with a prosecution against) someone suspected of a crime."


It is like asking the question:  Is there enough evidence, both direct and indirect, that a crime MAY HAVE BEEN PERPETRATED.  If yes....then they go to trial.  If no....then they don't.

http://bipartisanreport.com/2017/05/04/new-reports-indicate-28-people-are-being-targeted-in-trump-investigation-details/ (http://bipartisanreport.com/2017/05/04/new-reports-indicate-28-people-are-being-targeted-in-trump-investigation-details/)

Allegedly there are 28 people being targeted.  This isn't surprising to me....since the type of crimes involved need a lot of people to pull them off.  You need hackers.....you need money.....you need money laundering.....you need bankers.....you need those with connections to those people, etc.  This isn't a 1973 Nixon "plumbers" deal that happened.
 
When all is said and done....it will be interesting to see just HOW MANY ARTICLES OF IMPEACHMENT there will be in the House of Representatives (in the later half of next year is my guess) when Congressmen are starting to get nervous about their upcoming election run the following year in 2018).

The process continues.........

 

Title: Re: Russiagate
Post by: Buddy on May 05, 2017, 06:40:48 PM
How many Trump campaign workers does it take to screw in a light bulb?

Apparently a LOT.... ;)

The latest one to "bite the dust"....Cory Lewandowski

http://www.palmerreport.com/opinion/quits-corey-lewandowski-foreign-agent/2592/ (http://www.palmerreport.com/opinion/quits-corey-lewandowski-foreign-agent/2592/)

Boy....are the attorney's in Washington DC going to have a banner year or two.....

Title: Re: Russiagate
Post by: Buddy on May 05, 2017, 10:23:59 PM
And some you probably thought I had "gone over the deep end" when I added "TASS"..... ;)

http://bipartisanreport.com/2017/05/05/just-in-trump-administration-asks-fda-to-change-all-tvs-to-fox-news-details/ (http://bipartisanreport.com/2017/05/05/just-in-trump-administration-asks-fda-to-change-all-tvs-to-fox-news-details/)

You haven't seen the half of it yet.  The next year will be one for the record books......

Title: Re: Russiagate
Post by: Buddy on May 06, 2017, 02:15:29 AM
Keep your eyes....ears....AND MIND OPEN.

http://www.cnbc.com/2017/05/05/macron-campaign-says-it-is-the-victim-of-massive-coordinated-hacking-campaign-reuters.html (http://www.cnbc.com/2017/05/05/macron-campaign-says-it-is-the-victim-of-massive-coordinated-hacking-campaign-reuters.html) 
Title: Re: Russiagate
Post by: TerryM on May 06, 2017, 03:22:41 AM
Keep your eyes....ears....AND MIND OPEN.

http://www.cnbc.com/2017/05/05/macron-campaign-says-it-is-the-victim-of-massive-coordinated-hacking-campaign-reuters.html (http://www.cnbc.com/2017/05/05/macron-campaign-says-it-is-the-victim-of-massive-coordinated-hacking-campaign-reuters.html)
He hasn't even lost - yet.


You don't suppose that whoever loses in your next City Council race will claim that the Russians hacked his campaign?


We've begun what will soon be recognized as the political equivalent to "The dog ate my homework". A lie that can't be disproven, but that very few believe to be true.
I suppose it's easier than telling contributors and supporters that their faith in you was misplaced.


Terry
Title: Re: Russiagate
Post by: AbruptSLR on May 06, 2017, 04:03:51 AM
Keep your eyes....ears....AND MIND OPEN.

http://www.cnbc.com/2017/05/05/macron-campaign-says-it-is-the-victim-of-massive-coordinated-hacking-campaign-reuters.html (http://www.cnbc.com/2017/05/05/macron-campaign-says-it-is-the-victim-of-massive-coordinated-hacking-campaign-reuters.html)
He hasn't even lost - yet.


You don't suppose that whoever loses in your next City Council race will claim that the Russians hacked his campaign?


We've begun what will soon be recognized as the political equivalent to "The dog ate my homework". A lie that can't be disproven, but that very few believe to be true.
I suppose it's easier than telling contributors and supporters that their faith in you was misplaced.


Terry

Just to let you know, sometimes you come across like someone trying to pose as an imaginary grand jury, who can dismiss any indication of wrong doing unless some one else does all the leg work for you.

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-39827244 (http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-39827244)
Title: Re: Russiagate
Post by: TerryM on May 06, 2017, 08:09:24 AM
Just to let you know, sometimes you come across like someone trying to pose as an imaginary grand jury, who can dismiss any indication of wrong doing useless some one else does all the leg work for you.

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-39827244 (http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-39827244)
Not quite understanding your message.


That said, an interesting link. Wikileaks apparently not involved & a very different timetable for dumping the data than what Hillary experienced. While the DNC data was dribbled out in tiny bits over what seemed like an eternity. This data was dumped in one packet, at close to the last moment possible.
I'd assume the DNC method would be more effective, but the perpetrators may have been more assured that their dribbles wouldn't be stopped. The French job may not have trusted that Wikileaks would have been sympathetic, or perhaps their cover was so thin that they feared apprehension unless they simply dropped their bombshell and promptly closed up shop.
The NSA may legally be able to track this since, as far as we know, no American's were involved. Recent Wikileaks revelations have proven that the CIA and anyone using their lost software can leave anyone's fingerprints behind, but it's possible that whoever dug up this data doesn't have access to the CIA's tools.
Not convinced that either data dump is Russia's doing, and I am dubious that the two hacks are related. The MO's are just too far apart.


Terry
PS - Where you wrote useless did you mean unless? - if so I still don't understand your reference to "leg work". People should be willing to defend their opinions, don't you think?
Title: Re: Russiagate
Post by: Jim Pettit on May 06, 2017, 03:32:01 PM
I know there are some who shrug at Russia's increasing and unprecedented meddling in global politics and say, "Meh. What are you gonna do?". For the record, I think that's a profoundly undemocratic point of view. But it's one unfortunately held by some in the West who have benefited politically from that meddling.

Russia has made no secret of the fact that they want the West to crumble. They need the EU to disintegrate, the US to falter, NATO to be rent asunder. It's in their own best interest to push for Brexit, and to enlist the help of divisive and caustic "useful idiots" like Trump, Le Pen, and Farage to hasten the downfall of democracy everywhere. So they are working overtime to make that happen. It's understandable if not excusable why they do that. But I think it's reprehensible for those enjoying the freedoms of those democracies to turn a blind eye to Putin's accelerated campaign simply because they are getting something from it for the moment.

It seems we freedom-lovers are at a crossroads. Either we surrender to Putin's methods and allow Russia to continue choosing more of  the West's leaders and policies, or we put an immediate end to all that, and start punishing those in the West who tolerate, condone, and encourage the behavior.

I'd go with the latter.

Title: Re: Russiagate
Post by: AbruptSLR on May 06, 2017, 05:22:17 PM
Terry
PS - Where you wrote useless did you mean unless? - if so I still don't understand your reference to "leg work". People should be willing to defend their opinions, don't you think?

Terry,

Yes, I meant unless, & I corrected my post.  As to what I meant, Jim Pettit expresses much of what I meant in his post in Reply #145.  That said, by "leg work" I mean several things: (a) using deductive logic it is easy to discount publicly available evidence one bit at a time, nevertheless the FBI has already done the "leg work" to compile sufficient confidential evidence that currently two grand juries have been called w.r.t. Russiagate that they can use their inductive logic to evaluate whether there is sufficient evidence available to hold trials to determine legal criminality based on all available evidence; and (b) I am a bit tired of of watching denialists use comparable deductive logic games to avoid taking timely & effective action against climate change and to me that includes fighting against alt-right abuse of power from Putin to Trump to Le Pen to etc.

Best,
ASLR
Title: Re: Russiagate
Post by: pileus on May 06, 2017, 06:56:38 PM
Not convinced that either data dump is Russia's doing, and I am dubious that the two hacks are related. The MO's are just too far apart.

"Vitali Kremez, director of research with New York-based cyber intelligence firm Flashpoint, told Reuters his review indicated that APT 28, a group tied to the GRU, the Russian military intelligence directorate, was behind the leak."

http://mobile.reuters.com/article/amp/idUSKBN1820BO (http://mobile.reuters.com/article/amp/idUSKBN1820BO)
Title: Re: Russiagate
Post by: TerryM on May 06, 2017, 09:49:41 PM
I know there are some who shrug at Russia's increasing and unprecedented meddling in global politics and say, "Meh. What are you gonna do?". For the record, I think that's a profoundly undemocratic point of view. But it's one unfortunately held by some in the West who have benefited politically from that meddling.

Russia has made no secret of the fact that they want the West to crumble. They need the EU to disintegrate, the US to falter, NATO to be rent asunder. It's in their own best interest to push for Brexit, and to enlist the help of divisive and caustic "useful idiots" like Trump, Le Pen, and Farage to hasten the downfall of democracy everywhere. So they are working overtime to make that happen. It's understandable if not excusable why they do that. But I think it's reprehensible for those enjoying the freedoms of those democracies to turn a blind eye to Putin's accelerated campaign simply because they are getting something from it for the moment.

It seems we freedom-lovers are at a crossroads. Either we surrender to Putin's methods and allow Russia to continue choosing more of  the West's leaders and policies, or we put an immediate end to all that, and start punishing those in the West who tolerate, condone, and encourage the behavior.

I'd go with the latter.


Jim
Your entire second paragraph strikes me as fantasy bordering on paranoia. You state that it is "no secret", yet I studied Russia intensively for ~2 years and found no indication at all of any of this.
If you can't back this up with verifiable quotes I'm afraid Ill be forced to conclude that it's simply anti-Russian, anti-Putin propaganda with no basis in fact.
Should I quote Obama as rebuttal?


Terry

Title: Re: Russiagate
Post by: AbruptSLR on May 06, 2017, 10:58:13 PM
Jim
Your entire second paragraph strikes me as fantasy bordering on paranoia. You state that it is "no secret", yet I studied Russia intensively for ~2 years and found no indication at all of any of this.
If you can't back this up with verifiable quotes I'm afraid Ill be forced to conclude that it's simply anti-Russian, anti-Putin propaganda with no basis in fact.
Should I quote Obama as rebuttal?
Terry

Terry,
For someone who indicates that he is good at research, I am very surprised that you have not found any evidence of Putin's desire to undermine the West for his own benefit, when in 5 seconds I can find an article like the following entitled: "Putin’s Puppet", from the summer before the last election:

http://www.slate.com/articles/news_and_politics/cover_story/2016/07/vladimir_putin_has_a_plan_for_destroying_the_west_and_it_looks_a_lot_like.html (http://www.slate.com/articles/news_and_politics/cover_story/2016/07/vladimir_putin_has_a_plan_for_destroying_the_west_and_it_looks_a_lot_like.html)

Extract: "Vladimir Putin has a plan for destroying the West—and that plan looks a lot like Donald Trump. Over the past decade, Russia has boosted right-wing populists across Europe. It loaned money to Marine Le Pen in France, well-documented transfusions of cash to keep her presidential campaign alive. Such largesse also wended its way to the former Italian premier Silvio Berlusconi, who profited “personally and handsomely” from Russian energy deals, as an American ambassador to Rome once put it. (Berlusconi also shared a 240-year-old bottle of Crimean wine with Putin and apparently makes ample use of a bed gifted to him by the Russian president.)

There’s a clear pattern: Putin runs stealth efforts on behalf of politicians who rail against the European Union and want to push away from NATO. He’s been a patron of Golden Dawn in Greece, Ataka in Bulgaria, and Jobbik in Hungary. Joe Biden warned about this effort last year in a speech at the Brookings Institution: “President Putin sees such political forces as useful tools to be manipulated, to create cracks in the European body politic which he can then exploit.” Ruptures that will likely multiply after Brexit—a campaign Russia’s many propaganda organs bombastically promoted.

The destruction of Europe is a grandiose objective; so is the weakening of the United States. Until recently, Putin has only focused glancing attention on American elections. Then along came the presumptive Republican nominee."

Best,
ASLR
Title: Re: Russiagate
Post by: AbruptSLR on May 06, 2017, 11:07:23 PM
Terry,

If you think that my last post linking to an article by Slate is biased to the left, here is a more right-leaning article entitled: “How Russia stumbled into a winning strategy to undermine the West”:

http://foreignpolicy.com/2017/03/29/how-russia-stumbled-into-a-winning-strategy-to-undermine-the-west/ (http://foreignpolicy.com/2017/03/29/how-russia-stumbled-into-a-winning-strategy-to-undermine-the-west/)

Extract: “The tables have turned. The threat from the West that Russia saw in the mid-2000s has now been molded to a seemingly successful counter-strategy. It is targeting the ideological foundation of the West through political, ideological, and informational operations with relative impunity. And it seems to be going well.”

Best,
ASLR
Title: Re: Russiagate
Post by: Neven on May 06, 2017, 11:27:06 PM
Maybe we should take this to the But, but, but PUTIN thread (https://forum.arctic-sea-ice.net/index.php/topic,1950.0.html), as this is more about Russia/Putin  in general than Russiagate.
Title: Re: Russiagate
Post by: AbruptSLR on May 07, 2017, 12:35:16 AM
Wikileaks apparently not involved & a very different timetable for dumping the data than what Hillary experienced.

The linked article is entitled: "US far-right activists, WikiLeaks and bots help amplify Macron leaks: researchers"; which indicates that WikiLeaks is involved and that botnets are compressing the timetable for the effectiveness of such Russian efforts to manipulate the French election just as they did for the US election:

http://www.reuters.com/article/us-france-election-cyber-idUSKBN1820QO?il=0 (http://www.reuters.com/article/us-france-election-cyber-idUSKBN1820QO?il=0)
Title: Re: Russiagate
Post by: TerryM on May 07, 2017, 12:35:29 AM
So, because slate says it's true, I'm supposed to believe it?


Why would Biden tell the truth when his son is up to his elbows raping Ukraine?


When someone claims that Hansen said we'll all die next year, and I ask for proof. I don't accept what someone read at Tony's site & I don't accept what Pruitt said.
You need to show what Hansen said, when he said it, and where he said it - with a link.


Terry



Title: Re: Russiagate
Post by: AbruptSLR on May 07, 2017, 01:04:12 AM
So, because slate says it's true, I'm superposed to believe it?


Why would Biden tell the truth when his son is up to his elbows raping Ukraine?


When someone claims that Hansen said we'll all die next year, and I ask for proof. I don't accept what someone read at Tony's site & I don't accept what Pruit said.
You need to show what Hansen said, when he said it, and where he said it - with a link.


Terry

Terry,

Your not very good at respecting Neven's request to take this discussion to the But, but, but Putin thread.

ASLR
Title: Re: Russiagate
Post by: TerryM on May 07, 2017, 01:49:22 AM
So, because slate says it's true, I'm superposed to believe it?


Why would Biden tell the truth when his son is up to his elbows raping Ukraine?


When someone claims that Hansen said we'll all die next year, and I ask for proof. I don't accept what someone read at Tony's site & I don't accept what Pruit said.
You need to show what Hansen said, when he said it, and where he said it - with a link.


Terry

Terry,

Your not very good at respecting Neven's request to take this discussion to the But, but, but Putin thread.

ASLR


You're right & I've apologized on the other thread. I posted my reply before looking at the posts that had followed.


Back on topic.


Who do you believe leaked the DNC data?


We know the leaks started after Podesta gave his password to a phrendly phish.
We know that there were elements within the DNC that expressed hostility after BernieGate.
We know that the brotherly IT team from (Saudi)? has been charged with something.
We know Wikileaks says it came from a private, as opposed to a governmental source.
We know that Putin says it wasn't Russian intelligence.
We know that Putin believed that Hillary's election would be a disaster for world peace. (his words)


I think that the data beginning with Podesta's password leak & ending when passwords were changed is a very strong indication that the successful fishing expedition proceeded through this wide open portal. Further, both the means of entry & their inability to continue after the password was changed indicate that these weren't even professionals, let alone government level spooks. I believe I could have pulled this of and I'm a klutz WRT the internet.


If this is true it eliminates the Bernie supporters, as they would still have access.
The IT team, they're professionals & would still have had access.
Foreign or domestic spies, as they don't need to go fishing when there is work to be done.


Is it within the realm of possibility that Assange is telling the truth?
Does Assange have a history of lying, or is his honesty so crucial to his work that he really can't lie without destroying everything he's built?


Russiagate is nothing other than a way to challenge Trump's credibility while absolving the DNC from any responsibility for losing the election.
Don't bother "following the money", simply ask who stands to benefit.


Terry
Title: Re: Russiagate
Post by: mati on May 07, 2017, 02:27:30 AM
so terry
russiagate is an elaborate plot carried out by elite operatives in the DNC?
Hmm very interesting, can you elaborate more please?
Title: Re: Russiagate
Post by: AbruptSLR on May 07, 2017, 02:36:17 AM
The linked article is entitled: "James Comey accidentally makes ironclad case for independent Russia probe", and it makes the case for the need for a Special Prosecutor.

http://shareblue.com/james-comey-accidentally-makes-ironclad-case-independent-russia-probe/ (http://shareblue.com/james-comey-accidentally-makes-ironclad-case-independent-russia-probe/)

Extract: "The Trump/Russia investigation was a central subject of the Senate Judiciary Committee’s hearing on oversight of the FBI, at which FBI Director James Comey testified for several hours.

While Republicans tried to deflect attention away from the FBI’s ongoing investigation into possible coordination between Donald Trump’s campaign and the Russians, Democrats uncovered key information, and highlighted the need for an independent investigation by a special prosecutor.

Democrats were aided in the latter effort, albeit reluctantly, by Comey himself.

Early in the hearing, Senator Amy Klobuchar asked Comey if he would fully brief the Senate and House intelligence committees on the results of the FBI’s Trump/Russia investigation, and Comey responded that he would only do so if given permission by DOJ:

Despite Comey’s professed faith in Rosenstein, who has refused to commit to an independent investigation, this testimony unquestionably proves the necessity of a special prosecutor.

In short, Comey has declared that he will not brief the intelligence committees without permission from the Trump-appointed deputy attorney general; that he will not inform them if Trump’s White House refuses to cooperate; and that the decision to prosecute will ultimately rest in a Trump appointee’s hands.

Comey may be fine with that, but the American people are not."
Title: Re: Russiagate
Post by: Buddy on May 07, 2017, 02:59:45 AM
Quote
Russiagate is nothing other than a way to challenge Trump's credibility while absolving the DNC from any responsibility for losing the election.

That is laughable.  You either still don't know the election is over.....OR.....you're getting paid by "Vlad".
 
Quote
Don't bother "following the money", simply ask who stands to benefit.

The FBI IS following the money....quite LITERALLY. 

I am truly AMAZED by you....
Title: Re: Russiagate
Post by: TerryM on May 07, 2017, 03:31:15 AM
so terry
russiagate is an elaborate plot carried out by elite operatives in the DNC?
Hmm very interesting, can you elaborate more please?


Your comprehension is incomprehensible.
Is this an attempt at a red herring, or simply an inability to follow rather simple sentence structures?
If English is a second language I apologize, but I do ask that you return to your English lessons.
Terry
Title: Re: Russiagate
Post by: mati on May 07, 2017, 03:43:06 AM
so terry
russiagate is an elaborate plot carried out by elite operatives in the DNC?
Hmm very interesting, can you elaborate more please?


Your comprehension is incomprehensible.
Is this an attempt at a red herring, or simply an inability to follow rather simple sentence structures?
If English is a second language I apologize, but I do ask that you return to your English lessons.
Terry
aha, now an ad hominem attack, please terry respond, what facts do you have backing up your assertions that the DNC is responsible for russiagate.
thanks
mati
Title: Re: Russiagate
Post by: TerryM on May 07, 2017, 03:44:33 AM
Quote
Russiagate is nothing other than a way to challenge Trump's credibility while absolving the DNC from any responsibility for losing the election.

That is laughable.  You either still don't know the election is over.....OR.....you're getting paid by "Vlad".
 
Quote
Don't bother "following the money", simply ask who stands to benefit.

The FBI IS following the money....quite LITERALLY. 

I am truly AMAZED by you....
I'm AMAZED, quite LITERALLY that the FBI doesn't know that the election is over.


Almost by definition people couldn't claim that the Russians had stolen our election - until the election was over.


Was this an attempt at humor? Showing everyone just how poorly thought out the arguments for Russiagate are?


Cause/Effect
Sequence does matter
Terry
Title: Re: Russiagate
Post by: TerryM on May 07, 2017, 04:00:28 AM
so terry
russiagate is an elaborate plot carried out by elite operatives in the DNC?
Hmm very interesting, can you elaborate more please?


Your comprehension is incomprehensible.
Is this an attempt at a red herring, or simply an inability to follow rather simple sentence structures?
If English is a second language I apologize, but I do ask that you return to your English lessons.
Terry
aha, now an ad hominem attack, please terry respond, what facts do you have backing up your assertions that the DNC is responsible for russiagate.
thanks
mati
My dear mati.
No attack intended. I simply never claimed that the DNC was responsible, in fact I wrote that I had eliminated them as possible suspects.
I was sincere in my apologies if your lack of comprehension was due to conversing in a language you might not be familiar with. Otherwise I couldn't, and can't understand why you seem unable to read rather simplified English.


If you wrote that A + B = C
And I responded, demanding to know why you insisted that
A - B = C
Would it constitute a personal attack to question your understanding of mathematical notation?


Terry

Title: Re: Russiagate
Post by: Buddy on May 07, 2017, 09:48:35 PM
Eric Trump said 'we have all the funding we need out of Russia', golf writer claims

https://www.yahoo.com/news/eric-trump-said-apos-funding-144213395.html (https://www.yahoo.com/news/eric-trump-said-apos-funding-144213395.html)

When they get done digging into the Russia/Trump financing deals.....Eric and his brother will very comfortable rooms at nice "hotel with barred windows." ;)

This is one of the things that is going to take quite a while:  Unraveling all the financing that has been done by Russia.  A lot of things will "come together" after the authorities have subpoenaed Donnie's tax returns.....as well as all the banking done through the Cyprus banks, as well as Ddeutsche Bank.  But it will be an enlightening ride..... 
Title: Re: Russiagate
Post by: budmantis on May 08, 2017, 12:36:47 AM
Very interesting Buddy, no doubt Terry will have an interesting rejoinder. I've been following the discussion but haven't had the time to do my own research, therefore I've not commented much lately. Good to see you still plugging away at this.

BudM
Title: Re: Russiagate
Post by: Martin Gisser on May 08, 2017, 12:56:47 AM
Very interesting Buddy, no doubt Terry will have an interesting rejoinder.
Slowly but surely methinks Terry is a Russian troll. :) Possibly without knowing it. :) The Russians seem to have psychic powers unbeknownst to the West. :)
Title: Re: Russiagate
Post by: budmantis on May 08, 2017, 06:20:14 AM
Recently I said to Terry that sometimes he's just arguing for the sake of arguing. You've got to give him credit for being a great devil's advocate, but I do think at times he carries it too far.

BudM
Title: Re: Russiagate
Post by: TerryM on May 08, 2017, 07:16:52 AM
Recently I said to Terry that sometimes he's just arguing for the sake of arguing. You've got to give him credit for being a great devil's advocate, but I do think at times he carries it too far.

BudM
Tut Tut Tut


I argue for peace.
I argue against Trump.
I argue for high ff costs.
&
I argue against big money in politics.


How does one take these arguments too far?
How are these arguments ones that the Devil would advocate?


Inquiringly
Terry
Title: Re: Russiagate
Post by: Buddy on May 08, 2017, 12:46:51 PM
Quote
I argue for peace.
I argue against Trump.
I argue for high ff costs.
&
I argue against big money in politics.

You "forgot" two others:

1)  You argue AGAINST Russia being involved with interfering in the US election (as well as the French election)

2)  You argue FOR Putin. 

NEITHER of those has been argued WITH FACTS.  Only your statement that you have done 2 years of research on Russia.

Just want to make sure we had your "full list" of things you argue "for" or "against."



 
Title: Re: Russiagate
Post by: Buddy on May 08, 2017, 12:57:48 PM
Well.....not enough time.  Didn't get to a timeline I wanted to get to.  Here are two things many of you will find interesting.

One is a timeline put together by CNN:

http://www.cnn.com/2017/02/16/politics/trump-russia-timeline/ (http://www.cnn.com/2017/02/16/politics/trump-russia-timeline/)

The other is a link to The Palmer Report....which has a 17 page PDF that outlines most of the schenanigans going on between Trump and Russia...

http://www.palmerreport.com/politics/download-the-palmer-report-on-trump-russia/2093/ (http://www.palmerreport.com/politics/download-the-palmer-report-on-trump-russia/2093/)

The testimony today starts at 2:30 EST.  I don't believe it has been announced exactly what time Yates is going to testify.....because I believe that both her AND Clapper will be testifying...so I don't know who is going first, and I don't know if it will "spill over" to tomorrow.

Set your DVR's....
Title: Re: Russiagate
Post by: budmantis on May 08, 2017, 02:00:55 PM
Recently I said to Terry that sometimes he's just arguing for the sake of arguing. You've got to give him credit for being a great devil's advocate, but I do think at times he carries it too far.

BudM
Tut Tut Tut


I argue for peace.
I argue against Trump.
I argue for high ff costs.
&
I argue against big money in politics.


How does one take these arguments too far?
How are these arguments ones that the Devil would advocate?


Inquiringly
Terry

Arguing for the four reasons listed above is fine, but you've carried the argument over Putin and Russiagate too far. Putin may or may not be the devil, but he's no angel. Let's see what evidence comes to light before dismissing Putin's involvement out of hand.

BudM

P.S. I assume you're reference to high "ff" costs was in regards to fossil fuels, not French fries!
Title: Re: Russiagate
Post by: TerryM on May 08, 2017, 02:53:35 PM
Recently I said to Terry that sometimes he's just arguing for the sake of arguing. You've got to give him credit for being a great devil's advocate, but I do think at times he carries it too far.

BudM
Tut Tut Tut


I argue for peace.
I argue against Trump.
I argue for high ff costs.
&
I argue against big money in politics.


How does one take these arguments too far?
How are these arguments ones that the Devil would advocate?


Inquiringly
Terry

Arguing for the four reasons listed above is fine, but you've carried the argument over Putin and Russiagate too far. Putin may or may not be the devil, but he's no angel. Let's see what evidence comes to light before dismissing Putin's involvement out of hand.

BudM

P.S. I assume you're reference to high "ff" costs was in regards to fossil fuels, not French fries!


I thought the argument about Russiagate was over?
Didn't Feinstein, after taking in the CIA's presentation, tell the world that there was no proof of Russian interference in the election?
This is like a girl who cried rape saying she made it up - what's left to argue?


Putin was and I believe still is the most popular politician in the world. Every great man has jealous detractors.


And you're damn right that french fries are underpriced. Poutine is the only civilized way to indulge in fried potatoes, as your ancestors would attest to.


Terry
Title: Re: Russiagate
Post by: Martin Gisser on May 08, 2017, 03:26:21 PM
Terry, you sure did miss the link to the full Feinstein interview in the "corporate Democrats" thread.
Quote
It is this: https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=IB7lOGFBKXE starting at 6:50 (wrrr, after 6:50 on Hillary's emails. When will they ever learn?)
Well yes it is a straw you Russophiles can cling to. But I (German Russophobe) can cling to this straw: What if she was taking the "classified" a bit too seriously, i.e. she refuses to talk about even the existence of such evidence (if existing). What if it is only that the CIA doesn't yet have ironclad evidence of collusion (e.g. a Trump tape telling it literally)?

Anyhow the Russophiles conveniently forget about the first half of that half of the interview. Feinstein said:
Quote
...high confidence that there was a covert influence campaign going on, headed by two Russian intelligence agencies...
... I won't read/type out the rest for you. That's your homework.
Given the many connections of many Trumpists to Russia it is very plausible they colluded or took advantage of Russian work. And that is either recklessly stupid or plain treason. Both is impeachable.
Title: Re: Russiagate
Post by: wili on May 08, 2017, 03:27:45 PM
Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence.

And please, please don't trivialize the crime of rape on this (or on any other) forum.

Thank you,

Dohboi
Title: Re: Russiagate
Post by: Jim Pettit on May 08, 2017, 03:37:32 PM
I thought the argument about Russiagate was over?

Oh, I'm sure Trump and other Spetsnaz-loving Russophiles wish it were. But unfortunately for them, things like today's Senate subcommittee hearing and the ongoing and widening multi-agency investigation into possible collusion would indicate that ain't necessarily so just yet.

Didn't Feinstein, after taking in the CIA's presentation, tell the world that there was no proof of Russian interference in the election?

See, that's the problem with consuming only what you find on Right Wing news outlets: they never give you the whole story. Listen to the entire interview, then get back to us.

Putin was and I believe still is the most popular politician in the world. Every great man has jealous detractors.

Oh, c'mon; surely you're smart enough to know that "popular" doesn't necessarily equal "great", aren't you?
Title: Re: Russiagate
Post by: TerryM on May 08, 2017, 05:05:45 PM
Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence.

And please, please don't trivialize the crime of rape on this (or on any other) forum.

Thank you,

Dohboi


Screw off with the pc bull.


Thank you
Terry
Title: Re: Russiagate
Post by: Neven on May 08, 2017, 05:21:45 PM
Well yes it is a straw you Russophiles can cling to. But I (German Russophobe) can cling to this straw:

What was that again about the Middle Way?  ;D
Title: Re: Russiagate
Post by: Neven on May 08, 2017, 05:24:54 PM
Screw off with the pc bull.

Yes, and let's not get worked up/aggressive either. We're all just having fun and blowing off steam here.  :)
Title: Re: Russiagate
Post by: Buddy on May 08, 2017, 05:39:10 PM
Here are a couple of great quotes from a video clip on ClimateCrocks.com this morning.  The quotes were in reference to scientists and climate change.....but I think they apply to ALL MANKIND....and to ALL DISCIPLINES.

Whether you are talking about RussiaGate, global warming, sports, politics, religion, or ANY OTHER SUBJECT.....the FOCUS should always be GETTING TO THE TRUTH.....USING THE AVAILABLE FACTS AND EVIDENCE.  PERIOD.

What happened with Greg Fishel below.....was that he first "thought"....that global warming was garbage.  Maybe he didn't look hard enough at first....or maybe he just WANTED global warming to be garbage.  We don't know what the BIAS's were that he had.  But BEFORE he really dove into the subject...he had a BIAS towards not believing it.    But over time....he eventually had to face up to the truth (because it NEVER goes away ;)).

And that is the same for politics.....or national affairs like RUSSIAGATE.   Some people DON'T want it to be true.  Some people....maybe because they have an affinity towards a particular Russian leader ( ;)).....have a bias towards NOT believing that RussiaGate is really truth.

Anyway....my point is this:  No matter WHICH side of an argument you are on....you should ALWAYS GUARD AGAINST BIAS.  You should ALWAYS ask yourself:  "Am I being objective"......"am I looking for the truth, or just what I WANT the truth to be?"

“I was a hardcore skeptic.  The mistake I was making, and didn’t realize it until very recently, was that I was only looking for information to support what I already thought, and was not interested in listening to anything contrary.”    Greg Fishel, Meteorologist, Raleigh, North Carolina

And below...another good quote from another meteorologist:

[size=12pt]“Like any good scientist, you always take in the information, and then you question it and you research it yourself and find out what’s really going on.”  Amber Sullins, Meteorologist, Phoenix, AZ[/size]

It applies not only to scientists....but to everyone else as well.  LOOK FOR THE TRUTH....  And even AFTER you have an ESTABLISHED POSITION on a subject.....CONTINUE TO LOOK FOR THE TRUTH....and question yourself from time-to-time to make SURE you aren't ignoring the real facts and truth that is in front of you.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lM_XwDKhsas&t=3s (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lM_XwDKhsas&t=3s)
Title: Re: Russiagate
Post by: TerryM on May 08, 2017, 06:14:48 PM
Martin


I had missed the first 8 min. or so of the interview. Thanks for the heads up!


Most of her anger seems directed at Comey (the subject of the interview apparently), and I agree that if I thought a scapegoat was helpful, it's him I'd drive into the desert.
Early on I had compared his actions directly to those taken by the head of our RCMP on the occasion of Stephen Harper's first win here in Canada - We fired ours, Comey has some strong support somewhere.


At the 7th min. after muffing around about Hillary's phones & Bill's airport meetings she regurgitates what MSM has been reporting for months about the evil Russians. By 8:20 she's begging off, for security reasons, but by 9:00 she opines that the FBI's report to congress was ~= to the classified report.


At 9:40, after verifying that Feinstein had been to a CIA briefing the previous day,


Wolf asks, "Do you believe - do you have evidence, that there was in fact collusion, between Trump associates and Russia, during the campaign."


Feinstein's response - "Not at this time."


Wolf - "Well, that's a pretty precise answer. (short pause) I know the investigation is continuing. Thank you Senator."


I should have looked for a transcript. I wrote code for a whole bevy of State Stenographers in a past life, with little appreciation for their work. That said, hearing the whole interview has done little to modify my stance. To quote Wolf "Well, that's a pretty precise answer" & the answer of course was "Not at this time"


Asked and answered, as a judge might respond to anyone questioning her response.


Do you believe there are fairies in your garden?
Do you have any evidence that the dog ate your homework?
Do you believe - do you have evidence that the moon landings were faked?
Do you believe - do you have evidence that there was in fact collusion, between Trump associates and Russia, during the campaign?


Not at this time.


Terry

edit:
Has anyone figured out how to get rid of those damn resizing commands?
Thanks
edit2:
Now they're gone???
Title: Re: Russiagate
Post by: TerryM on May 08, 2017, 06:22:04 PM
Screw off with the pc bull.

Yes, and let's not get worked up/aggressive either. We're all just having fun and blowing off steam here.  :)


Mea Culpa
I do know better - appologies to Wili & congratulations, you're the first here to cause me to lose my cool.
Terry
Title: Re: Russiagate
Post by: wili on May 08, 2017, 09:04:51 PM
Terry, apology (and congrats) accepted.

My mother has been raped, something she only shared privately with me a couple years ago, once she was well into her eighties.

My daughter was raped last year, something as far as I know, she has shared with only me and (I assume) her therapist.

My wife was raped before I met her.

I only share these things here because of my own anonymity. I have to assume from my experience that many more women than we will ever know have been raped and have never spoken of it to anyone, or only to others sworn to secrecy.

The issue of trivializing rape is not a 'pc' issue to me.

But let's drop this OT topic at that, shall we?
Title: Re: Russiagate
Post by: Buddy on May 08, 2017, 11:00:42 PM
Just caught a snippet or two of the Yates testimony today.  Can't wait to watch it tonight....

Sharks are circling....and there is blood in the water....

Tick...tick...tick....tick....tick....
Title: Re: Russiagate
Post by: AbruptSLR on May 09, 2017, 01:54:54 AM
The linked article is entitled: “Sally Yates told White House aides Flynn was a Russian blackmail risk. 18 days later, he was fired.”  It looks like people (MSM, Congress, the FBI) need to keep after the WH to explain why they waited 18-day before firing Flynn.

http://www.cnn.com/2017/05/08/politics/sally-yates-flynn-russia/index.html (http://www.cnn.com/2017/05/08/politics/sally-yates-flynn-russia/index.html)

Extract: “It's no longer an acceptable answer to say -- as Trump and White House advisers like Sean Spicer and Reince Priebus have -- that the information passed from Yates to McGahn was insignificant. Unless Yates is lying -- and no one has suggested she is -- then what she told McGahn on January 26 (and followed up on the next day) was of huge importance.

"Why wouldn't you fire a guy who did this?" Sen. Al Franken wondered aloud at the hearing.
Why didn't Trump act? That's the question the White House has to answer. And soon.”
Title: Re: Russiagate
Post by: Martin Gisser on May 09, 2017, 02:55:33 AM
Was there anything new? The case looks a bit thin, just some stupidity and incompetence. Any serious kompromat somewhere?

https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2017/may/08/sally-yates-trump-russia-michael-flynn-blackmail-compromised (https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2017/may/08/sally-yates-trump-russia-michael-flynn-blackmail-compromised)
Quote
According to her Senate testimony, the White House counsel asked her: “Why does it matter to the Department of Justice whether one White House official lies to another White House official?”

“We explained to him that it’s a lot more than that,” Yates said. “We also said that we weren’t the only ones who knew this. The Russians also knew what General Flynn had done and that what Pence said was not true. The Russians not only knew this but they also likely had proof.”

Yates added: “To restate the obvious, you don’t want your national security adviser compromised with the Russians.”
What she mean by "a lot more"?
If it's just about "one White House official lies to another White House official" and Russia knowing it, not e.g. a golden showers tape, then the case is a bit boring :) If the Russians would try blackmail me on that, I would just go tell the truth to uncle Donald.

But Flynn is seriously crazy and in a huge tangle of Russophilia :)
https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2017/mar/31/michael-flynn-new-evidence-spy-chiefs-had-concerns-about-russian-ties (https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2017/mar/31/michael-flynn-new-evidence-spy-chiefs-had-concerns-about-russian-ties)
... so I wouldn't be surprised of harder stuff. It's time for some serious rubber-hits-road...

 

Title: Re: Russiagate
Post by: TerryM on May 09, 2017, 05:16:38 AM
The timeline as I understand it:


May 13, 2015 Yates is Obama's appointee as "Deputy Attorney General of the USA"

Nov 12, 2015 Obama warns Trump not to hire Flynn in WH meeting*1
Jan 20 - Trump sworn in (Fri.)*1

Jan 20 - Yates begins her 1 week stint as "Acting Attorney General of the USA" Appointed by Trump(Fri.)*2
Jan 24 - Flynn interviewed by FBI(Tue.)*1
Jan 25 - Yates receives "detailed FBI rpt.", 302 rpt. not yet written*1 (wiki explains FD-302 FORM)
Jan 26 - First meeting with White House counsel Don McGahn about Flynn - asked to return - see below
Jan 27 - Second meeting with McGahn about Flynn - see below
(start clock for Flynn's dismissal)(Fri)*2
Jan 27 - Exec. Order 13769 banning travel.
Jan 28 - Trump speaks by phone to Putin with Flynn in the room as well as Priebus, Pence, Bannon, and Spicer, & photographer?*1
Jan 28 - Cases filed & Court orders Temporary Restraining Order (TRO) against enforcing 13769
Jan 29 - Dept of Homeland Security says it will continue to enforce 13769
Jan 30 - Yates bars Justice dept. from defending 13769
Jan 30 - Trump relieves Yates from duty after calling her statement a "betrayal" to the Dept. of Justice(Mon) [Yates hired on a Fri, fired on 2nd Mon]*2


Jan 30 - Trump appoints Dana J. Boente to replace Yates
Feb 03 - Washington Judge temporarily blocks majority of 13769
Feb 04 - Homeland Security stops enforcing 13769
Feb 04 - State Dept. reinstated suspended visas
Feb 04 - Justice Dept. asks for reversal of blocking order
Feb 04 - 9th Circuit temporarily denies Justice Dept Request
Feb 07 - 9th Circuit holds hearings
Feb 08 - 9th Circuit continues hearings
Feb 09 - 9th Circuit unanimously denies Justice Dept's request to deny stay of 13769
Feb 13 - Virginia judge rules against Administration
Feb 13 - Flynn resigns
(stop clock for Flynn's dismissal)


Feb 16 - Trump Admin tells 9th Circuit they'll replace 13769 next week
Feb 16 - 9th Circuit stays review of previous ruling


Mar 08 - Yates Testifies before Senate subcommittee :
Mar 08 - Yates testifies to 2 meetings and 1 phone call with McGahn, Date of call not yet charted here*1
Mar 08 - Sen Graham(R) asks Clapper (head of NDI) and Yates if "either had intelligence that would confirm collusion between Trump Admin. & the Kremlin. Clapper - "No evidence of such collusion" - Yates refused to answer citing "classified information*1
Mar 08 - Clapper & Yates both deny being 'anonymous' source to media*1
Mar 08 - Yates says she instructed DOJ not to defend 13769 as in her mind its "unlawful & unconstitutional - Sen. Kennedy(R) asks "Who appointed you to the Supreme Court?"*1
Mar 08 - Wikileaks says Clapper lied or misled when testifying that there was no release of Republican Data - Assange offers released archive as proof*1


First meeting with McGahn per Yates at WH*1



Told McGahn that
Flynn misrepresented his contact with Ambassador Sergey Kislyak to VP Pence because:
1) Flynn's conduct was problematic in itself
2) She believed that Pence should be notified
3) She was concerned that the American people had been misled
4) The Russians knew that Flynn had lied, likely had proof, and this potentially exposed Flynn to blackmail - the previous was given as a response to McGowan's questioning of why AG was concerned *1
Both Yates & McGahn bring assts.to meeting - FBI's 302 rpt. not completed*1


Second meeting agenda items per Yates:


1) Why does it matter to DOJ whether one WH official lies to another WH official
2) What is Flynn's criminal exposure
2a) Potential prosecution on Flynn discussed at 2nd meeting as opposed to 1st*1
3) Whether taking action against Flynn could impede any investigation of him
4) Whether the WH could examine the underlying evidence in this matter




I'll try to fill this out as I find new data. Flynn's actions within the time period might be interesting. public statements by the major characters, & of course any other confirmable information related. I don't think it's OT, so another thread probably isn't required.
As it stands I don't see much here.


WH council gets word on Fri the 27th, Flynn resigns on Mon the 13th, 11 business days after WH was informed of lie. What is the problem?*2


Terry
edit 1 - tagged *1 - from 5/08
edit 2 - tagged *2 - from 5/10
Title: Re: Russiagate
Post by: Buddy on May 09, 2017, 12:48:01 PM
Quote
I'll try to fill this out as I find new data. Flynn's actions within the time period might be interesting. public statements by the major characters, & of course any other confirmable information related. I don't think it's OT, so another thread probably isn't required.
As it stands I don't see much here.

Yea.....you're probably right.  Why would it be a big deal to have your TOP NATIONAL SECURITY PERSON BEING BLACKMAILED BY RUSSIA?  Clearly not a big deal. ;)

Yea.....you're probably right.  Knowing that your top national security advisor might already be compromised by Russian agents....Donnie KEEPS HIM ON FOR EIGHTEEN MORE DAYS....INCLUDING HIM IN HIGH LEVEL TALKS WITH FOREIGN ENTITIES.

Yea....you're probably right.  We now know that Donnie EITHER (a) ALLOWED HIS VICE PRESIDENT TO "FLY BLIND" RELATIVE TO THE FLYNN KNOWLEDGE....going on talk show after talk show and spreading information THAT DONNIE KNEW WAS WRONG AT THE TIME.....OR.....(b)MIKE PENCE ALREADY KNEW THAT FLYNN WAS COMPROMISED, AND CONTINUED TO COVER FOR HIM.  Either one is really bad. :o

Yea....you're probably right.  if the Washington Post had not run the story from a leak....that Sally Yates had already warned the White House about Michael Flynn, Michael Flynn MIGHT STILL BE IN THE WHITE HOUSE. >:(

Your statement's are no longer laughable.  They are dangerous.  As an American....I find your statements REPREHENSIBLE.....and now wonder who is paying you (literally...figuratively).

This guy does a good job of summing things up:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RdIg1DfS9LE (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RdIg1DfS9LE)

The game has only begun.  Now....it is clear that Trump, Pence, Spicer, Conway, McGahn, and a GROWING LIST OF OTHERS.....not only worked with the Russians, they also have tried to cover it up.  And they will ALL BE TOAST....
Title: Re: Russiagate
Post by: Buddy on May 09, 2017, 01:09:04 PM
RussiaGate is a little like planting Tulips.  Tulips are planted about 5 months BEFORE they bloom in the spring.  Well....RussiaGate was planted in 2016....and it is JUST NOW BEGINNING TO BLOOM.  The one significant difference....is that Tulips only bloom for a short time, about a month or less.  With RussiaGate....THERE ARE A LOT MORE BLOOMS TO COME.  The bloom of RussiaGate will last for a year.

From the following CNN article:
http://www.cnn.com/2017/05/09/politics/trump-yates-russia/ (http://www.cnn.com/2017/05/09/politics/trump-yates-russia/)

Investigation could run into next year

Quote
The answer to that question may not come for a long time yet -- not at least until the FBI probe into Russian interference in last year's election and possible links to the Trump campaign wraps up.

FBI Director James Comey has given no timeline for the investigation. And there are new signs that congressional investigations into the affair may linger deep into Trump's term.

CNN's Manu Raju reported Monday that a mountain of evidence and partisan disagreement mean it could be 2018 before the job is wrapped up. And even then, hopes are fading that there can be a bipartisan conclusion on the extent of Russian election meddling.
Title: Re: Russiagate
Post by: TerryM on May 09, 2017, 01:11:58 PM
Buddy
Just finished 1st edit of timeline.
Do you have any data you'd like to add to that post?
I'm afraid my hearing's bad & my wife's asleep so I need written, not verbal information.


You're welcome to do as you like of course - I believe t'was you that alerted us to this hearing, but what I'm interested in is discovering, and documenting, what occurred during the period in question.
You mention Flynn being "in high level talks with foreign entities" during these critical (to the subcommittee) days.
Who, when, and the subject of the talks would all help.
Feel free to copy, paste and add your own data to the timeline, or just put a link out (preferably a silent one), and I'll plug information in.


edit
Followed the text of your CNN link above & found nothing new. Should I wait until sweety awakens to do the video, or does it ~= the text?
Are they planning a replay of the unending Clinton hearing(s) - who's the new Ken Starr?


Terry
Title: Re: Russiagate
Post by: Jim Pettit on May 09, 2017, 01:17:00 PM
Yates convened an emergency face-to-face meeting with McGahn on January 26 to warn him that Flynn was compromised. She met again the next day to provide further details, and urged McGahn to act on her warning. But in the two-and-a-half weeks after that warning, aboslutely nothing happened. Flynn continued his unfettered, highest-of-all-possible-levels of access to the nation's security network. That's two-and-a-half weeks of attending security briefings; two-and-a-half weeks of listening in on Oval Office phone calls (including one with Putin); two-and-a-half weeks of reading highly-classified reports and memos and transcripts. In short, that's two-and-a-half weeks of a known Russian foreign agent freely wandering the halls of the White House with the full knowledge and explicit permission of the President, the Vice President, Bannon, Priebus, and others who should have known better.

For her patriotic efforts, Yates was terminated (public reason: failure to enforce the President's unconstitutional Muslim ban. Private reason: take a wild guess).

So what the hell took the White House so long to fire Flynn? Utter incompetence? Hubris and arrogance? A criminal act? All of the above? And given that all of that came after the outgoing President directly told the incoming President in November that Flynn was an unstable fruitcake who should not be anywhere near the White House, what was the reason for hiring him? For keeping him? Of course, the timing of Flynn's, ahem, "resignation" seems very convenient, given that the Washington Post was about to break the news that Flynn had been compromised, and firing him then let the White House senior staff flop back on their fainting couches, clutch at their pearls, and cry, "Oh, how could he have lied to us?!"

As it stands, I see much here. But far more importantly, so do a whole lot of good people in the Justice department and elsewhere. Of course, nothing much may happen so long as the corrupt, ideological, party-first-party-only Republicans control most of the levers--but they won't always have that control. And when that change comes, that's when heads will roll.
Title: Re: Russiagate
Post by: Jim Pettit on May 09, 2017, 01:22:19 PM
You mention Flynn being "in high level talks with foreign entities" during these critical (to the subcommittee) days.
Who, when, and the subject of the talks would all help.

(https://forum.arctic-sea-ice.net/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimage.prntscr.com%2Fimage%2F59852ae586594afb8c809b6e759a7c62.png&hash=de0e90a86d77937fce1fbafec74329fc)

This is two days after Yates' first face-to-face meeting with McGahn. At this point,
Flynn shouldn't have even been allowed onto the White House grounds, much less into the Oval Office. Source: NPR (http://www.npr.org/sections/parallels/2017/01/29/512268735/trump-speaks-with-putin-in-50-minute-phone-call)
Title: Re: Russiagate
Post by: TerryM on May 09, 2017, 01:48:31 PM
Yates convened an emergency face-to-face meeting with McGahn on January 26 to warn him that Flynn was compromised. She met again the next day to provide further details, and urged McGahn to act on her warning. But in the two-and-a-half weeks after that warning, aboslutely nothing happened. Flynn continued his unfettered, highest-of-all-possible-levels of access to the nation's security network. That's two-and-a-half weeks of attending security briefings; two-and-a-half weeks of listening in on Oval Office phone calls (including one with Putin); two-and-a-half weeks of reading highly-classified reports and memos and transcripts. In short, that's two-and-a-half weeks of a known Russian foreign agent freely wandering the halls of the White House with the full knowledge and explicit permission of the President, the Vice President, Bannon, Priebus, and others who should have known better.

For her patriotic efforts, Yates was terminated (public reason: failure to enforce the President's unconstitutional Muslim ban. Private reason: take a wild guess).

So what the hell took the White House so long to fire Flynn? Utter incompetence? Hubris and arrogance? A criminal act? All of the above? And given that all of that came after the outgoing President directly told the incoming President in November that Flynn was an unstable fruitcake who should not be anywhere near the White House, what was the reason for hiring him? For keeping him? Of course, the timing of Flynn's, ahem, "resignation" seems very convenient, given that the Washington Post was about to break the news that Flynn had been compromised, and firing him then let the White House senior staff flop back on their fainting couches, clutch at their pearls, and cry, "Oh, how could he have lied to us?!"

As it stands, I see much here. But far more importantly, so do a whole lot of good people in the Justice department and elsewhere. Of course, nothing much may happen so long as the corrupt, ideological, party-first-party-only Republicans control most of the levers--but they won't always have that control. And when that change comes, that's when heads will roll.


My understanding is that Flynn had been a registered Turkish lobbyist? Do I have this wrong?
Terry
Title: Re: Russiagate
Post by: Jim Pettit on May 09, 2017, 03:15:23 PM
My understanding is that Flynn had been a registered Turkish lobbyist? Do I have this wrong?
Terry

Flynn retroactively registered as a foreign agent for Turkey several weeks after he was fired from the White House. But Flynn also worked for Russia at the same time he worked for Turkey, taking tens of thousands of dollars in payments from Moscow that he didn't disclose on official documents. That's one of the reasons Yates warned McGahn that Flynn had been compromised. But, again, TrumpCo failed to separate Flynn from national security operations even after they knew that--that is, a known Russian foreign agent was allowed unrestricted access. To everything.

Not cool. Not cool at all...
Title: Re: Russiagate
Post by: Buddy on May 09, 2017, 03:34:52 PM
It is clear to me now.....that RussiaGate investigation will greatly broaden in scope over the coming months.  It will eventually include investigations into collusion by FOX News in helping Donald Trump to cover up the RussiaGate affair via Rupert Murdoch.  Things will hit the fan even more than I had thought.  An Independent commission will be required.....and I expect that a couple years down the road.....new laws will be required to forbid a news organization to work with/for any individual or any one party.

I'll have more on this later......but I would expect more and more chatter about this.  Rupert Murdoch is consulting with Donald Trump on the RussiaGate matters on a frequent basis according to reports in the media.  As well......some branches of government are requiring that the "news channel" their tv's are required to be set on is FOX News.  Isn't that handy.😏

This is the reason why I have always said....that FOX News is DANGEROUS.  They are NOT a "news outlet"....they are a "propaganda vehicle."  Personally.....I would LOVE to have a "conservative" news outlet (as well as outlets on the "left"/progressive).  But it needs to be based IN FACTS AND TRUTH. Not a basket of lies as is the case with FOX.

THIS SHOULD SCARE THE HELL OUT OF YOU
https://www.mediamatters.org/blog/2017/05/06/murdoch-reportedly-advising-trump-while-doj-investigates-fox/216309 (https://www.mediamatters.org/blog/2017/05/06/murdoch-reportedly-advising-trump-while-doj-investigates-fox/216309)

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/us-federal-staff-force-fox-news-change-cnn-fake-news-leaked-email-a7721696.html (http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/us-federal-staff-force-fox-news-change-cnn-fake-news-leaked-email-a7721696.html)

 
Title: Re: Russiagate
Post by: Buddy on May 09, 2017, 04:11:56 PM
I've watched a little bit of the NBA playoffs this year....and have yet to see any slam dunks better than these two on Senator Cornyn and Senator Ted Cruz (Texas deserves WAY BETTER than these two liars).  Both of these are VERY SHORT VIDEO CLIPS....

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DoPwbuMqZmk (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DoPwbuMqZmk)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1sC1dOiCSp0 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1sC1dOiCSp0)

Sally Yates made BOTH of them look like they were wading into deep water.....without knowing how to swim.

On the Cruz clip...if you want to see an excellent job of "baiting".....pay special attention starting at 1:00 (one minute)  into the clip....where Cruz asks Yates if she is "familiar with 8 section 1182".  To which she replies "no" (THAT...was the bait).  And Teddy.....opened his mouth as far as he could....and took the bait and ran with it.  Unfortunately.....Yates fully understood 8 Section  1182.....and understood another portion of the code that supersedes it.

I hope you watch both videos.  It shows two men.....unevenly matched against a much stronger opponent in Yates.  And she devours them.  NOT by yelling and screaming and lying.  But by CALMLY boxing them into their respective corners with the TRUTH.  IT NEVER GOES AWAY....
Title: Re: Russiagate
Post by: gerontocrat on May 09, 2017, 04:53:35 PM
Russia gets on with it while Washington D.C. drowns in blah blah.

Russia showcases Arctic hardware in Red Square military parade
http://www.reuters.com/article/us-wwii-anniversary-russia-parade-idUSKBN1850XO (http://www.reuters.com/article/us-wwii-anniversary-russia-parade-idUSKBN1850XO)
Title: Re: Russiagate
Post by: Buddy on May 09, 2017, 05:40:28 PM
It was always just a matter of time....

Top Republican Senator calls for investigation of Trump’s business ties to Russia

http://resistancereport.com/politics/top-republican-senator-calls-investigation-trumps-business-ties-russia/ (http://resistancereport.com/politics/top-republican-senator-calls-investigation-trumps-business-ties-russia/)

Now...further groundwork has been done.  If Donnie's tax returns haven't been subpoenaed yet...they will be.  As well as those of the Trump organization.  It's just now warming up......  Now the "forensic accountants" with the FBI will have their hands full for a while....

 
Title: Re: Russiagate
Post by: Buddy on May 09, 2017, 05:48:12 PM
Well.....McMaster was NEVER going to work out in the long run for Donnie.  After all...McMaster is now likely becoming aware of some of the Flynn schenanigans and crimes, because McMaster took Flynn's place.  So McMaster isn't going to just roll over with every Donnie tweet and command.  He isn't a paid crook like Flynn was.

https://www.bloomberg.com/view/articles/2017-05-08/washington-loves-general-mcmaster-but-trump-doesn-t (https://www.bloomberg.com/view/articles/2017-05-08/washington-loves-general-mcmaster-but-trump-doesn-t)

As I noted a few weeks ago.....we will REALLY need to worry if the Secretary of Defense is "on the outs" with Donnie in coming weeks or months.

NOTE:  Donnie is now backed into a SHRINKING CORNER.  And a wounded animal....especially one that is a sociopath....WILL DO ANYTHING.  And in Donnie's case....anything means ANYTHING. 
Title: Re: Russiagate
Post by: Laura Derrick on May 09, 2017, 06:25:16 PM
The timeline as I understand it:

Terry
edit 1 - tagged *1

Maybe this will help fill in some gaps:
http://billmoyers.com/story/the-trump-resistance-plan-a-timeline-russia-and-president-trump/ (http://billmoyers.com/story/the-trump-resistance-plan-a-timeline-russia-and-president-trump/)
Title: Re: Russiagate
Post by: Buddy on May 09, 2017, 08:26:23 PM
One thing to keep in mind over the coming months.  Donnie will do ANYTHING TO GET THE SUBJECT OFF OF RUSSIAGATE.

It will NOT surprise me if he suggests that he and his team aren't apply to comply with some or all of the RussiaGate requests because there is "so much important business" to attend to. ;)

Remember....this is a LIAR IN CHIEF WHO WILL LIE ABOUT ANYTHING.

That lying will ONLY INCREASE OVER THE COMING MONTHS TO INCREDIBLE LEVELS.

Spicey is going to have his hands full in coming days and weeks as he tries to lie, bob, and weave his way out of a web of lies.  They will try to show things as....."business as usual" as much as they can.

The process continues........tick...tick....tick...tick...
Title: Re: Russiagate
Post by: Martin Gisser on May 09, 2017, 08:44:09 PM
So it is more than just
Quote
"one White House official lies to another White House official" and Russia knowing it.
There is also some "problematic underlying conduct" of Flynn, and that's why Yates rushed to the White House. That underlying conduct is still classified, so Yates had to "rely on an artificial description of events" in her May 8 testimony.

Nov 12 2016 - President Obama receives Trump at the WH and warns him against hiring Flynn
Jan 20 - Trump sworn in (Friday)
Jan 24 - FBI interviews Flynn (Tuesday)
Jan 25 - Attorney General Yates gets detailed read-out from FBI, their "302 report" not yet written
Jan 26 - Yates + senior member of her DOJ national security division inform WH (McGahn + associate) in a secure room at the WH about Flynn's "problematic underlying conduct" (classified), not waiting for the FBI's 302.
Title: Re: Russiagate
Post by: AbruptSLR on May 09, 2017, 08:44:30 PM
The linked article is entitled: "Did Donald Trump try to threaten Sally Yates on Twitter? If so, he committed a felony".  Maybe the DOJ will take appropriate action :P.

http://www.salon.com/2017/05/09/did-donald-trump-try-to-threaten-sally-yates-on-twitter-if-so-he-committed-a-felony/ (http://www.salon.com/2017/05/09/did-donald-trump-try-to-threaten-sally-yates-on-twitter-if-so-he-committed-a-felony/)

Extract: "If Trump's tweet was meant to "influence, delay, or prevent" Yates' testimony, it could be felony witness tampering.

On Monday in the hours before former acting Attorney General Sally Yates’ testimony to the Senate Judiciary Subcommittee on Crime and Terrorism, the president engaged in a predictable tweetstorm, complete with an attack on the “fake news.” It’s entirely possible that one of those Monday-morning tweets constituted felonious witness tampering."
Title: Re: Russiagate
Post by: TerryM on May 09, 2017, 09:13:48 PM
The timeline as I understand it:

Terry
edit 1 - tagged *1

Maybe this will help fill in some gaps:
http://billmoyers.com/story/the-trump-resistance-plan-a-timeline-russia-and-president-trump/ (http://billmoyers.com/story/the-trump-resistance-plan-a-timeline-russia-and-president-trump/)


Wow!
I hadn't intended to start in 1979, but we'll see where it leads.
Thanks
Terry
Title: Re: Russiagate
Post by: Buddy on May 09, 2017, 09:40:41 PM
The Kushner Project Touted In China Is In Trouble At Home:

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2017-05-08/kushner-project-touted-by-sister-in-china-is-in-trouble-at-home (https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2017-05-08/kushner-project-touted-by-sister-in-china-is-in-trouble-at-home)

I think both Trump AND Kushner are BOTH in trouble.  As in.....OVER INDEBTED TROUBLE.





 



Title: Re: Russiagate
Post by: TerryM on May 09, 2017, 09:49:22 PM
So it is more than just
Quote
"one White House official lies to another White House official" and Russia knowing it.
There is also some "problematic underlying conduct" of Flynn, and that's why Yates rushed to the White House. That underlying conduct is still classified, so Yates had to "rely on an artificial description of events" in her May 8 testimony.

Nov 12 2016 - President Obama receives Trump at the WH and warns him against hiring Flynn
Jan 20 - Trump sworn in (Friday)
Jan 24 - FBI interviews Flynn (Tuesday)
Jan 25 - Attorney General Yates gets detailed read-out from FBI, their "302 report" not yet written
Jan 26 - Yates + senior member of her DOJ national security division inform WH (McGahn + associate) in a secure room at the WH about Flynn's "problematic underlying conduct" (classified), not waiting for the FBI's 302.


Thanks
Updated timeline - still on edit 1
Terry
Title: Re: Russiagate
Post by: AbruptSLR on May 10, 2017, 12:18:07 AM
The linked article is entitled: "Press secretary's statement on the firing of FBI Director James B. Comey:", now Trump can put his own man in charge of the agency that is investigating the Russia – Trump connection.  Hopefully, Congress will create an independent investigation panel or a Special Prosecutor.


http://www.latimes.com/politics/washington/la-na-essential-washington-updates-statement-on-the-firing-of-fbi-director-1494366997-htmlstory.html (http://www.latimes.com/politics/washington/la-na-essential-washington-updates-statement-on-the-firing-of-fbi-director-1494366997-htmlstory.html)

Extract: "Today, President Donald J. Trump informed FBI Director James Comey that he has been terminated and removed from office. President Trump acted based on the clear recommendations of both Deputy Attorney General Rod Rosenstein and Attorney General Jeff Sessions.

"The FBI is one of our Nation’s most cherished and respected institutions and today will mark a new beginning for our crown jewel of law enforcement,' said President Trump.

"A search for a new permanent FBI Director will begin immediately."

See also:

http://www.cnn.com/2017/05/09/politics/james-comey-fbi-trump-white-out/ (http://www.cnn.com/2017/05/09/politics/james-comey-fbi-trump-white-out/)

&

http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2017/05/09/white-house-fires-fbi-director-james-comey?via=mobile&source=copyurl (http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2017/05/09/white-house-fires-fbi-director-james-comey?via=mobile&source=copyurl)

&

http://www.cbsnews.com/news/trump-fires-fbi-director-james-comey/ (http://www.cbsnews.com/news/trump-fires-fbi-director-james-comey/)
Title: Re: Russiagate
Post by: Buddy on May 10, 2017, 12:19:46 AM
Well...no surprise there.  I told you a week or so ago that Comey was toast...and so he is.

The investigation was obviously getting too close...and too far along.  NOW.....the moderate senators like Graham and McCain and others.....will have to carry the water for democracy.

Donnie is guilty of MANY THINGS.  And one of the last things he wants to happen....is for people to be rummaging around in his finances.  TOO MANY SKELETONS.....

This is only the first of MANY FIRINGS TO COME most likely.....before the WHOLE process is over.  How many FBI directors will he have to fire?  How many people will LEAK information to newspapers?

This is SERIOUS STUFF NOW.  As I noted several times....and many months ago....this will make Watergate look like child's play.


Title: Re: Russiagate
Post by: Buddy on May 10, 2017, 12:36:54 AM
Here is a piece of the Watergate timeline.  Remember.....Nixon was re-elected in November 1972...so I included items from February of 1973 - July of 1973 (the 6 months AFTER Nixon was re-elected)....so this is the same "time period" we are now in:

============================================================
February 28, 1973: Confirmation hearings begin for confirming L. Patrick Gray as permanent Director of the FBI (the prior FBI Director had died the year before from natural causes). During these hearings, Gray reveals that he had complied with an order from John Dean to provide daily updates on the Watergate investigation, and also that Dean had "probably lied" to FBI investigators.

March 17, 1973: Watergate burglar James McCord writes a letter to Judge John Sirica, claiming that some of his testimony was perjured under pressure and that the burglary was not a CIA operation, but had involved other government officials, thereby leading the investigation to the White House.

April 6, 1973: White House counsel John Dean begins cooperating with federal Watergate prosecutors.

April 27, 1973: L. Patrick Gray resigns after it comes to light that he destroyed files from E. Howard Hunt's safe. William Ruckelshaus is appointed as his replacement.

April 30, 1973: Senior White House administration officials John Ehrlichman, H. R. Haldeman, and Richard Kleindienst resign; John Dean is fired.

May 17, 1973 : The Senate Watergate Committee begins its nationally televised hearings.

May 19, 1973: Independent special prosecutor Archibald Cox appointed to oversee investigation into possible presidential impropriety.

June 3, 1973: John Dean tells Watergate investigators that he has discussed the cover-up with Nixon at least 35 times.

July 13, 1973: Alexander Butterfield, former presidential appointments secretary, reveals that all conversations and telephone calls in Nixon’s office have been taped since 1971.

July 18, 1973: Nixon orders White House taping systems disconnected.

July 23, 1973: Nixon refuses to turn over presidential tapings to Senate Watergate Committee or the special prosecutor.
=============================================================

HISTORY RHYMES....

Here is the Wiki link for the whole thing:  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Timeline_of_the_Watergate_scandal
Title: Re: Russiagate
Post by: pileus on May 10, 2017, 01:15:42 AM
This is where we see how much the American system can bend, or if it is indeed shattered beyond repair. 

The comparisons to Watergate are understandable, but there was a different brand of Republican during that crisis with willingness to preserve and maintain the country at the expense of their party.   There have always been monied interests and oligarchs controlling the puppet strings of power, but the checks and systems to moderate have been obliterated over recent decades.

There was never any guarantee that America would have a happy ending or that the perceived democratic system would endure.  For many groups and individuals it was never an even playing field, now the whole show could be closing up shop.
Title: Re: Russiagate
Post by: Jim Pettit on May 10, 2017, 01:42:53 AM
People fired by Trump:
--Sally Yates
--Preet Bharara
--James Comey

People investigating Trump:
--Sally Yates
--Preet Bharara
--James Comey
Title: Re: Russiagate
Post by: Martin Gisser on May 10, 2017, 02:17:24 AM
Watergate gave us at least some nice vocabulary...
"Saturday Night Massacre"
"Follow the money"
...?

Latest Keith Olbermann piece: Trump golf courses financed by Russians. Who else would have given him money.
https://youtu.be/Poc24APzPzY
Title: Re: Russiagate
Post by: pileus on May 10, 2017, 03:20:58 AM
What a coincidence. 

Grand Jury Subpoenas Issued in FBI's Russia Investigation

https://amp.cnn.com/cnn/2017/05/09/politics/grand-jury-fbi-russia/index.html

(CNN) Federal prosecutors have issued grand jury subpoenas to associates of former National Security Advisor Michael Flynn seeking business records, as part of the ongoing probe of Russian meddling in last year's election, according to people familiar with the matter. CNN learned of the subpoenas hours before President Donald Trump fired FBI director James Comey.

The subpoenas represent the first sign of a significant escalation of activity in the FBI's broader investigation begun last July into possible ties between Trump campaign associates and Russia.
Title: Re: Russiagate
Post by: Buddy on May 10, 2017, 04:34:05 AM
Next play:  Will Associate AG hire a special prosecutor or not?  If not....marches will happen.  Donnie will leave office one way or another over the next 15 - 18 months.  Americans will fill the streets otherwise.  Not immediately....but in a growing ground swell.

The process continues.......
Title: Re: Russiagate
Post by: AbruptSLR on May 10, 2017, 05:45:43 AM
Maybe Richard Burr will dig his heels in now and put up some resistance to these Trump shenanigans:

https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/politics/top-senate-intel-republican-troubled-by-comey-firing/ar-BBAXakf (https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/politics/top-senate-intel-republican-troubled-by-comey-firing/ar-BBAXakf)

Extract: "Burr, who is leading the Senate’s investigation into alleged coordination between members of the Trump campaign and the Russian government, called Comey a “public servant of the highest order,” and said his firing was “a loss for the Bureau and the nation.”

Burr said he was “troubled by the timing and reasoning of Director Comey’s termination,” and noted that he “has been more forthcoming with information than any FBI Director I can recall in my tenure on the congressional intel committees.”"
Title: Re: Russiagate
Post by: budmantis on May 10, 2017, 06:21:45 AM
Several Republican senators have voiced concern over the firing of Dir. Comey. What I find interesting is a rare disagreement between Sen's McCain and Graham over this, as described in the following link:

http://www.cnn.com/2017/05/09/politics/republican-response-comey-fired/index.html (http://www.cnn.com/2017/05/09/politics/republican-response-comey-fired/index.html)

Title: Re: Russiagate
Post by: pileus on May 10, 2017, 06:46:29 AM
Next play:  Will Associate AG hire a special prosecutor or not?  If not....marches will happen.  Donnie will leave office one way or another over the next 15 - 18 months.  Americans will fill the streets otherwise.  Not immediately....but in a growing ground swell.

The process continues.......

IMO this will likely play out on a more accelerated timeline.  Weeks to 6 months tops.  The outcome is uncertain but it's going to move pretty quickly from this point.
Title: Re: Russiagate
Post by: Buddy on May 10, 2017, 01:38:38 PM
Right now....our democracy is in the hand of several moderate Senators.  If they cave...WE ARE FUCKED.

First things first.  Donnie will try to replace his FBI director ASAP.  Guiliani or Christy will be nominated.  The Senate has to approve.  I "think" most or all of the Democrats understand what is going on...and HOPEFULLY enough moderate Republicans do as well.  But that is FAR FROM ASSURED.

The FBI investigation NEEDS TO CONTINUE.  Without that....we are SCREWED

The thing that people forget...is that we are dealing with a delusional SOCIOPATH.  I expect some pretty "crazy ass" executive orders to come out in the coming weeks.  I will NOT BE SURPRISED WITH ANYTHING HE DOES.

He will have NO PROBLEM with releasing executive orders that go WAY OVER THE LINE.

The press has got to "step up their game."  They need to strap on their big ones.  This is SERIOUS BUSINESS NOW....

Also note.....Donnie is in bed with Rupert Murdoch.  So the people watching FOX lies....are continuing to get brainwashed.  If the US democracy makes it through this somehow....FOX is screwed, and Murdoch likely realizes that.  He has been working with Donnie.....
Title: Re: Russiagate
Post by: Archimid on May 10, 2017, 03:34:10 PM
Honor. I think the US achieved greatness as a nation because it was lucky enough to have enough honorable people to maintain a powerful democracy. It wasn't the strength of the constitution or the set of laws. It was honorable people doing the right thing more often than not.

Honor has been degrading slowly for decades. Bush2 and citizens united accelerated the decay of honor. Obama tried to reestablish it but the forces of fear and intolerance took over the Republicans and things actually got worse. Trump seems like the final blow to honor.

Are there enough honorable people in the Republican party to do the right thing to preserve democracy? or have they all been seduced by the illusion of power that fossil fuel/ Putin/Trump is presenting to them?

We are about to find out. This is terrifying, but no more than an Arctic collapse. 
Title: Re: Russiagate
Post by: budmantis on May 10, 2017, 03:50:07 PM
This is like 1974 all over again, with the added problem of having a major news (so-called) network on Trump's side.

BudM
Title: Re: Russiagate
Post by: TerryM on May 10, 2017, 05:12:32 PM
The timeline as I understand it:

Terry
edit 1 - tagged *1

Maybe this will help fill in some gaps:
http://billmoyers.com/story/the-trump-resistance-plan-a-timeline-russia-and-president-trump/ (http://billmoyers.com/story/the-trump-resistance-plan-a-timeline-russia-and-president-trump/)


Wow!
I hadn't intended to start in 1979, but we'll see where it leads.
Thanks
Terry
Laura
I read the full timeline. Some is good, some is way off base. ie Andrii Artemenko is not pro-Putin. He's the head of Solidarity of the Right Forces - definitely not a friend of Russia, or Russians.


If there is something you think I should add, give me a heads up. As a long time fan of Bill Moyers I'm a little taken aback by this research.


Terry

Title: Re: Russiagate
Post by: TerryM on May 10, 2017, 05:17:21 PM
Right now....our democracy is in the hand of several moderate Senators.  If they cave...WE ARE FUCKED.

First things first.  Donnie will try to replace his FBI director ASAP.  Guiliani or Christy will be nominated.  The Senate has to approve.  I "think" most or all of the Democrats understand what is going on...and HOPEFULLY enough moderate Republicans do as well.  But that is FAR FROM ASSURED.

The FBI investigation NEEDS TO CONTINUE.  Without that....we are SCREWED

The thing that people forget...is that we are dealing with a delusional SOCIOPATH.  I expect some pretty "crazy ass" executive orders to come out in the coming weeks.  I will NOT BE SURPRISED WITH ANYTHING HE DOES.

He will have NO PROBLEM with releasing executive orders that go WAY OVER THE LINE.

The press has got to "step up their game."  They need to strap on their big ones.  This is SERIOUS BUSINESS NOW....

Also note.....Donnie is in bed with Rupert Murdoch.  So the people watching FOX lies....are continuing to get brainwashed.  If the US democracy makes it through this somehow....FOX is screwed, and Murdoch likely realizes that.  He has been working with Donnie.....
No worries - I have it on good authority that at some point we'll see Trump's tax returns & his presidency will end. :D


Terry

Title: Re: Russiagate
Post by: Jim Pettit on May 10, 2017, 05:44:59 PM
I read the full timeline. Some is good, some is way off base. ie Andrii Artemenko is not pro-Putin. He's the head of Solidarity of the Right Forces - definitely not a friend of Russia, or Russians.

Facts would seem to disagree.

Daily Beast (http://www.thedailybeast.com/cheats/2017/02/19/trump-got-secret-plan-to-lift-russia-sanctions?via=desktop&source=copyurl): "The Ukrainian lawmaker pushing the plan, Andrii Artemenko, has praised Trump and Putin and is seeking to oust Ukraine’s president, Petro Poroshenko. “A lot of people will call me a Russian agent, a U.S. agent, a CIA agent,” Artemenko said. “But how can you find a good solution between our countries if we do not talk?”"

NY Times (https://www.nytimes.com/2017/02/19/us/politics/donald-trump-ukraine-russia.html): "Mr. Artemenko said he had received encouragement for his plans [to disseminate anti-Poroshenko propaganda] from top aides to Putin."

Vanity Fair (http://www.vanityfair.com/news/2017/02/donald-trump-associates-russia-ukraine): "Artemenko reportedly belongs to the same pro-Putin bloc of lawmakers with which Trump’s former campaign manager, Paul Manafort, was involved."

NY Post (http://nypost.com/2017/05/02/mystery-surrounds-deaths-of-dozens-linked-to-putin/): [Oronov]..."had arranged a meeting with Trump lawyer Michael Cohen, Trump associate Felix Sater and Andrii Artemenko, a member of Ukraine’s parliament, to discuss a peace plan for Ukraine that would have given Putin control of Crimea."

People may disagree with Moyers if they wish, but they'll need to keep their facts straight to convince anyone else...
Title: Re: Russiagate
Post by: Martin Gisser on May 10, 2017, 06:24:06 PM
Artemenko etc. is a huge can of worms. I've given up on getting anything right here.
E.g.
Quote
Vanity Fair (http://www.vanityfair.com/news/2017/02/donald-trump-associates-russia-ukraine): "Artemenko reportedly belongs to the same pro-Putin bloc of lawmakers with which Trump’s former campaign manager, Paul Manafort, was involved."
But then, according to https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Andrey_Artemenko (https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Andrey_Artemenko)
Quote
2013 ... he actively participated in the struggle against the Yanukovych regime.
so he worked against Manafort's client. But then, he might have flip flopped (perhaps after a nudge by Putin) just like Yanukovych himself...
Title: Re: Russiagate
Post by: AbruptSLR on May 10, 2017, 06:52:35 PM
The linked article is entitled: "Comey asked for more money, manpower for Russia investigation days before firing".  Is the Trump administration planning on starving the Russiagate investigation to death?

http://abcnews.go.com/Politics/fbi-director-comeys-firing/story?id=47318625 (http://abcnews.go.com/Politics/fbi-director-comeys-firing/story?id=47318625)

Extract: "FBI Director James Comey requested additional money and manpower from Deputy Attorney General Rod Rosenstein for the investigation into Russian interference in the presidential election just days prior to his firing, according to a U.S. official with knowledge of the situation."
Title: Re: Russiagate
Post by: TerryM on May 10, 2017, 08:56:32 PM
I read the full timeline. Some is good, some is way off base. ie Andrii Artemenko is not pro-Putin. He's the head of Solidarity of the Right Forces - definitely not a friend of Russia, or Russians.

Facts would seem to disagree.

Daily Beast (http://www.thedailybeast.com/cheats/2017/02/19/trump-got-secret-plan-to-lift-russia-sanctions?via=desktop&source=copyurl): "The Ukrainian lawmaker pushing the plan, Andrii Artemenko, has praised Trump and Putin and is seeking to oust Ukraine’s president, Petro Poroshenko. “A lot of people will call me a Russian agent, a U.S. agent, a CIA agent,” Artemenko said. “But how can you find a good solution between our countries if we do not talk?”"

NY Times (https://www.nytimes.com/2017/02/19/us/politics/donald-trump-ukraine-russia.html): "Mr. Artemenko said he had received encouragement for his plans [to disseminate anti-Poroshenko propaganda] from top aides to Putin."

Vanity Fair (http://www.vanityfair.com/news/2017/02/donald-trump-associates-russia-ukraine): "Artemenko reportedly belongs to the same pro-Putin bloc of lawmakers with which Trump’s former campaign manager, Paul Manafort, was involved."

NY Post (http://nypost.com/2017/05/02/mystery-surrounds-deaths-of-dozens-linked-to-putin/): [Oronov]..."had arranged a meeting with Trump lawyer Michael Cohen, Trump associate Felix Sater and Andrii Artemenko, a member of Ukraine’s parliament, to discuss a peace plan for Ukraine that would have given Putin control of Crimea."

People may disagree with Moyers if they wish, but they'll need to keep their facts straight to convince anyone else...
Our boy's been zigging and zagging in many directions since his days with Lyashko and his Radical Party. At this stage I wouldn't want to bet big bucks that he was for or against anyone. Two of his kids are Americans & one is a Canadian, not bad for a Ukrainian politician/oligarch who apparently has been bouncing all over the ideological map.


When I was following him he was a stooge/thug under Oleg Lyashko, who claimed Amnesty International was "obviously biased" when they held him up as "one particularly aberrant MP". They may have been reacting to his calls for the death penalty for anyone at a separatist rally, or possibly his claiming responsibility for killing one separatist & severely wounding another.
It was about that time that Andrey formed his own political party - and charity organization!


He slipped below my radar, then I quit my daily grind of trying to get to the bottom of the Ukrainian thing when the blog I'd been following was totally destroyed. No photo's, no archives, nothing but a huge hole where so much information had been held.
I now have some idea how a patron of the Library at Alexandria must have felt.


If our boy's gone straight, this has to be seen in a positive light. Hope he never moves in with his Canadian son.
Wiki covers most of what I've talked about &
http://russianfreedomforum.lefora.com/topic/18815469/MICHAEL-FLYNN-TRIED-TO-BARGAIN-CRIMEA-WITH-RUSSIANS#.WRNTDIjytPY (http://russianfreedomforum.lefora.com/topic/18815469/MICHAEL-FLYNN-TRIED-TO-BARGAIN-CRIMEA-WITH-RUSSIANS#.WRNTDIjytPY)
may fill in some of the rest.


If anything isn't covered I can't point to any links because something or someone took down a tiny piece of the internet & left very little to mark it's passing.
Terry
Title: Re: Russiagate
Post by: AbruptSLR on May 11, 2017, 02:01:43 AM
The first linked article is entitled: "Was Russia the Real Reason Trump Fired James Comey?"; which, indicates that the only rational reason for Trump to fire Comey at this time is to disrupt the Russiagate investigation:

https://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2017/05/what-was-the-real-reason-for-trump-firing-james-comey/526080/ (https://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2017/05/what-was-the-real-reason-for-trump-firing-james-comey/526080/)

Extract: "In a combative CNN interview Tuesday night, Trump spokeswoman Kellyanne Conway herself suggested that the Clinton material was mere pretext. “This has nothing to do with the campaign from six months ago,” she told Anderson Cooper. “This has everything to do with the performance of the FBI director since the president has been in the White House.”
Trump himself contradicted the stated rationale, too. “He wasn't doing a good job. Very simply. He was not doing a good job,” the president told pool reporters Wednesday morning, his first non-Twitter comments on the firing.

Some news reports have already directly connected the Russia investigation with Comey’s firing. “Trump had grown angry with the Russia investigation—particularly Comey admitting in front of the Senate that the FBI was investigating his campaign—and that the FBI director wouldn't support his claims that President Barack Obama had tapped his phones in Trump Tower,” Politico’s Josh Dawsey wrote. Michael Schmidt of The New York Times reported that Sessions “had been charged with coming up with reasons to fire” Comey, even though Sessions recused himself from the Russia probe after admitting he failed to disclose a meeting with the Russian ambassador to Congress."


The second article is entitled: "The Latest: Flynn attorney declines to comment on subpoena", which indicates that Trump fired Comey shortly after he learned about the subpoena issued to Flynn.

http://www.sfgate.com/news/politics/article/The-Latest-Intel-chair-says-no-need-for-special-11135709.php (http://www.sfgate.com/news/politics/article/The-Latest-Intel-chair-says-no-need-for-special-11135709.php)
Title: Re: Russiagate
Post by: Martin Gisser on May 11, 2017, 02:22:13 AM
Apropos Watergate, RichardNixonLibrary @NixonLibrary tweets:
Quote
FUN FACT: President Nixon never fired the Director of the FBI
https://mobile.twitter.com/NixonLibrary/status/862083605081862145

... but of course Trump doesn't have a special prosecutor to fire yet
Title: Re: Russiagate
Post by: AbruptSLR on May 11, 2017, 03:27:25 AM
The linked article is entitled: “Comey infuriated Trump with refusal to preview Senate testimony-aides”.  So anybody in government who doesn't do what Trump wants, is by definition not doing “a good job” :o.

https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/politics/comey-infuriated-trump-with-refusal-to-preview-senate-testimony-aides/ar-BBAZzZX (https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/politics/comey-infuriated-trump-with-refusal-to-preview-senate-testimony-aides/ar-BBAZzZX)


Extract: “The anger behind Donald Trump's firing of FBI Director James Comey on Tuesday had been building for months, but a turning point came when Comey refused to preview for top Trump aides his planned testimony to a Senate panel, White House officials said.

Trump, Attorney General Jeff Sessions and deputy Attorney General Rod Rosenstein had wanted a heads-up from Comey about what he would say at a May 3 hearing about his handling of an investigation into former Democratic presidential candidate Hillary Clinton's use of a private email server.”

When Comey refused, Trump and his aides considered that an act of insubordination and it was one of the catalysts to Trump’s decision this week to fire the FBI director, the officials said.”
Title: Re: Russiagate
Post by: Neven on May 11, 2017, 10:28:50 AM
Here is a comment that was posted in the wrong thread:

On April 28 Archimid makes a very important statement. Here it is:
“I'm sorry but the news I read indicate that Putin's government uses the government to silence opposition.”
This is at the heart of the disagreements people have with Terry regarding Russia. If you can’t see the bigger picture with Russia you don’t have a context to evaluate Russiagate from start to finish.
   I feel like I have something to offer regarding how Russia is covered in the media since I am married to a Russian from Crimea and my wife’s mother lives in Crimea now. For 15 years I criticized my wife for refusing to understand the things that were happening regarding wars that touched on Russia and Eastern Europe, Middle East etc. Sometimes we reached the point where we could not talk about world events. My understanding came from “the news I read”. So after telling her I was right for 15 years Crimea annexation comes along and I get two sources of information: “the news” and what my mother could see out the window and on the streets of Yalta. After seeing Crimea with eyes un-blinded by the news, I saw the war in the Eastern Oblasts of Ukraine very differently. After seeing Ukraine with personal knowledge I could see through the incredible falsehoods that we are told in the news regarding Syria. So I had to apologize to my wife for being wrong all of these years. I trusted the news and found that the news was untrustworthy.
   Many people have said lots of bad things about TerryM on this thread.  Terry I would like to apologize in behalf of these people since most of them, like myself, will untimely come to see that we simply can’t trust what we are told regarding anything Russian. So I am convinced that Terry is right because I talked to people in places of conflict that had personal experience outside the news, and trusted personal witness over news. So Buddy, Mati, and many others if you would like to talk to my wife or her mother let me know since they are voices of truth in a sea of lies. I think that the only way you can see what is happening in the world is to have input outside ‘what you read in the news’.
   Most people who understand climate have come to distrust media with regards to this one topic and wonder why the media can’t get it right. I differ with many of you in that not only do I not trust media for climate, I do not trust media for much of anything else. I now believe that the people who intentionally deceive on climate deceive us in nearly every other way. I ask you to please look beyond what you are told and fortify it with personal voices of truth.

I also know a couple from the Ukraine and they get so angry at how mainstream media is portraying Putin and Russia. They have constant arguments with friends and relatives who only repeat what they've seen in the news. Now, I think they are a bit too positive about Putin, and told them as much ('that the media sucks and Putin is a moneygrabbing asshole are not mutually exclusive'), but I found what they told me rather convincing.

But I don't know enough about the details to give some real push-back. All I know is that if we polarize on a nationalistic level (USA vs USSR), things could get really ugly. If we are going to polarize, we need to polarize as follows: All people of good faith, whatever their race, age, religion, nationality, etc vs a system where oligarch money becomes like The Blob.

It's not us against the Russians, it's us and the Russians against Big Money.
Title: Re: Russiagate
Post by: Neven on May 11, 2017, 10:32:44 AM
Small addendum: The problem I have with some people here in these political threads (not with who they are, but with what they say), is that in my perception they too easily repeat mainstream media narratives. And I just don't trust anything coming out of mainstream media (especially if the CIA, FBI or Pentagon have something to do with it). Maybe that's not good either!  :D :P
Title: Re: Russiagate
Post by: Buddy on May 11, 2017, 01:04:06 PM
The sources I use....are days or WEEKS ahead of any "mainstream media."  People need to be careful NOT to take ANY INFORMATION without corroboration.  That goes for "mainstream media"...as well as Jimmy Dore or ANYONE ELSE.  In addition....people need to understand, and be able to "read" and understand BASIC human psychology and history.  History rhymes.  And the reason it rhymes....is because HUMAN PSYCHOLOGY DOESN'T CHANGE.  Anyone who doesn't have a good grasp of human psychology AND history...didn't see this coming.

For instance......does any "normal Republican in the Republican party....during the writing of the party platform....support a pro-Russia stance (back in July/August of 2016)? ABSOLUTELY NOT.  UNTHINKABLE.  And during this time period....there was a backdrop of months where Donnie was in his "bromance" period with Putin (which is UNTHINKABLE...and mainstream media as well as others reported as such).  AND....Donnie said he had absolutely NOTHING to do with input into the Republican party platform (as did Manafort...which I knew was a lie).

Anyone who knows ANYTHING about the Republican party.....knows that a pro-Russian stance on the party platform DURING A PERIOD OF RUSSIAN AGRESSION IN UKRAINE....is ABSOLUTELY ABSURD. IMPOSSIBLE....without "something" going on under the table.  Also note...at the time there were reports of Manafort reports of Russian relationships.

This is NOT ROCKET SCIENCE.  This is "humanity 101" plus journalism.  This thing was SO EASY TO SEE IT IS INCREDIBLE that Donnie even thought he would get away with this.

Of course....someone like Jimmy Dore is just finding out that he missed the biggest political story of the last 200 years.....may be having some second thoughts about RussiaGate. ;)

As well....it helps to understand Donnie's "psychology" as well.  If you look all the lies he told ALL ALONG....you KNEW he was capable of doing ANYTHING....AND LYING ABOUT EVERYTHING/b].

All it took was people who look at things with an understanding of basic human psychology..... students of history.....and people with a skeptical eye.  That is all.

 
 



Title: Re: Russiagate
Post by: Buddy on May 11, 2017, 01:36:07 PM
1)  OK....this thread needs a dose of humor:

2)  Who wants Spicey's job over the coming days/weeks/months?  You don't think there will be a Saturday Night Live skit with Spicey hiding in the bushes do you?

3)  We are speeding towards a special prosecutor.....no matter WHAT Mitch McConnell says.  It's just a matter of time.  Too many people that will need to be prosecuted....



Title: Re: Russiagate
Post by: Buddy on May 11, 2017, 03:41:56 PM
So....where do we stand?

1)  Looks like Donnie is "all in".  Expect the lies to continue.  As noted before....when all is said and done, there likely will be SEVERAL articles of impeachment.

2) Jeff Sessions looks to be "all in" as well.  I noted a few weeks ago that I thought he would be "toast" by now.  Certainly got the timing wrong....but he is "toast in waiting."  I'm not sure what the Senate's roll COULD be in getting rid of Sessions.  This one will be interesting to watch over coming weeks.  Sessions is rotten to the core...and always has been.  He was a PERFECT Donnie hire....because he, like Donnie, has ABSOLUTELY NO ETIICS.  And that is the type of person Donnie hired (except for his military hires).

3)  How CRAZY will Donnie get over the coming weeks/months?  Will he issue some crazy...over-reaching executive orders?  Will he actually try to nominate a buddy like Rudy Giuliani for FBI Director (and will enough Republicans buy in)?

4) Donnie meeting with the Russians in the oval office.....with the Russian press (TASS) and WITHOUT ANY US PRESS, was pretty damn crazy.  Incredible in fact.  Again...we don't know just how crazy Donnie is....but we KNOW it is "off the charts"....we just don't know HOW off the charts he is.  I will be keeping my eyes on McMaster and Mattis (National Security Advisor and Secretary of Defense).  Those appear to be the only adults in the room with ethics.....and they SURELY have to be monitoring Donnie's moves and hopefully keep him from going TOTALLY ROGUE.

5)  Look for more and more news about Donnie's business dealings to be coming out in the days and weeks ahead in the media.  That should provide some "meat on the bone" for people to chew on.

The process continues.......
Title: Re: Russiagate
Post by: Charles Longway on May 11, 2017, 03:59:25 PM
On April 28 Archimid makes a very important statement. Here it is:
“I'm sorry but the news I read indicate that Putin's government uses the government to silence opposition.”
This is at the heart of the disagreements people have with Terry regarding Russia. If you can’t see the bigger picture with Russia you don’t have a context to evaluate Russiagate from start to finish.
   I feel like I have something to offer regarding how Russia is covered in the media since I am married to a Russian from Crimea and my wife’s mother lives in Crimea now. For 15 years I criticized my wife for refusing to understand the things that were happening regarding wars that touched on Russia and Eastern Europe, Middle East etc. Sometimes we reached the point where we could not talk about world events. My understanding came from “the news I read”. So after telling her I was right for 15 years Crimea annexation comes along and I get two sources of information: “the news” and what my mother could see out the window and on the streets of Yalta. After seeing Crimea with eyes un-blinded by the news, I saw the war in the Eastern Oblasts of Ukraine very differently. After seeing Ukraine with personal knowledge I could see through the incredible falsehoods that we are told in the news regarding Syria. So I had to apologize to my wife for being wrong all of these years. I trusted the news and found that the news was untrustworthy.
   Many people have said lots of bad things about TerryM on this thread.  Terry I would like to apologize in behalf of these people since most of them, like myself, will untimely come to see that we simply can’t trust what we are told regarding anything Russian. So I am convinced that Terry is right because I talked to people in places of conflict that had personal experience outside the news, and trusted personal witness over news. So Buddy, Mati, and many others if you would like to talk to my wife or her mother let me know since they are voices of truth in a sea of lies. I think that the only way you can see what is happening in the world is to have input outside ‘what you read in the news’.
   Most people who understand climate have come to distrust media with regards to this one topic and wonder why the media can’t get it right. I differ with many of you in that not only do I not trust media for climate, I do not trust media for much of anything else. I now believe that the people who intentionally deceive on climate deceive us in nearly every other way. I ask you to please look beyond what you are told and fortify it with personal voices of truth.
Title: Re: Russiagate
Post by: Charles Longway on May 11, 2017, 04:01:40 PM
I accidentally opened a new thread for Russiagate. O have copied "H2O World's" comment in the new thread and will try to close the thread.

I hear you Charles it seems some of us have woken up to the fact that we were born into captivity but for those of us that understand this seem fated with being lonely observers, (thank goodness this forum exists!) the information age is the new paradox.
I think I hear the death rattles of our consumer culture breathing its last breath. Politics and religion are the useful tools of homo Sapien who have a lust for ownership, rule and power and I claim it does NOT work it NEVER has worked and it WON'T ever work. I believe science and spirituality is the new paradigm we must adopt if we are to survive into the future, alas it looks like it will not come to past. “We build too many walls and not enough bridges” Isaac Newton
Nature is not the man made construct that is culture. To move away from the current cultural paradigm into a true age of reason would mean you "Take the blue pill, the story ends. You wake up in your bed and believe whatever you want to believe. You take the red pill, you stay in Wonderland, and I show you how deep the rabbit hole goes.”

NBC mimics New York Times, hires prominent climate misinformer
https://thinkprogress.org/nbc-hires-climate-misinformer-george-will-af952161dcdc

I don’t know if this is the correct forum for my comment so feel free to do what you need to do.
Title: Re: Russiagate
Post by: AbruptSLR on May 11, 2017, 05:13:53 PM
Small addendum: The problem I have with some people here in these political threads (not with who they are, but with what they say), is that in my perception they too easily repeat mainstream media narratives. And I just don't trust anything coming out of mainstream media (especially if the CIA, FBI or Pentagon have something to do with it). Maybe that's not good either!  :D :P

Neven,
Please remember that there is an on-going criminal investigation, and that during such an investigation all new information should be both questioned and evaluated in the context of all the other fragments of information.

Best,
ASLR

And in this regards, the linked article is entitled: "Why Is Trump So Angry?"; which indicates that one should consider Trump's pattern of behavior throughout his career, campaign and administration.

http://redux.slate.com/cover-stories/2017/05/trumps-rage-powers-his-ruthlessness-and-his-ineptitude.html (http://redux.slate.com/cover-stories/2017/05/trumps-rage-powers-his-ruthlessness-and-his-ineptitude.html)

Extract: "So here we are. It beggars belief that the White House would sack Comey for any reason other than to thwart the Russia probe (or maybe to punish a parvenu given excessive credit for Trump’s victory). To pretend otherwise, as Michelle Goldberg observed, to think we would actually believe Trump fired Comey for being unfair to the woman he calls “Crooked Hillary,” is deeply stupid. The frantic violence of the president’s feelings—anything to sweep the Kremlin back under the rug—has produced what is surely one of the all-time great mindfucks in American history.

The problem with a doctrine of wrath—in the presidency as in other walks of life—is that the rationale so clear to the boiling brain can appear ridiculous to the outside observer. The administration’s babbling excuses have a knee-jerk quality; it’s as if the president so desired to disappear his Putin problem that he was willing to embrace whatever absurd explanation came to hand (and then became surprised—and angry all over again—when we didn’t fall for it). Don’t look at Russia! our commander in chief shouts in fury, and of course our gaze stays fixed on Moscow. Such transparent terror is contagious: Republican senators this week tried to make the Trump–Russia hearings about the travel ban, leaks, and Clinton’s emails—anything but Trump and Russia. After a certain point, this is no longer strategy. It is reflex. It is a child covering his eyes to make the loathsome object in front of him vanish. Trump may be a politician, but he is also a man consumed with desperate, narcissistic rage. Easing that pain will always be his primary goal."

See also the linked following article entitled: "White House furious after being trolled with Russia Oval Office photos", and associated images that Trump is furious about:

http://www.cnn.com/2017/05/11/politics/oval-office-photos-donald-trump-russians/ (http://www.cnn.com/2017/05/11/politics/oval-office-photos-donald-trump-russians/)

Title: Re: Russiagate
Post by: budmantis on May 11, 2017, 06:34:36 PM

Posts: 1615
Go DUCKS!!
 
 
Re: Russiagate
« Reply #230 on: Today at 01:04:06 PM »

Quote
The sources I use....are days or WEEKS ahead of any "mainstream media." 

Buddy, how can your news sources know WEEKS ahead of the mainstream media?

BudM
Title: Re: Russiagate
Post by: Buddy on May 11, 2017, 07:47:17 PM
Quote
Buddy, how can your news sources know WEEKS ahead of the mainstream media?

BudM

There are a FEW SOURCES that are "weeks ahead" of mainstream media.  Generally....and to their credit by the way.....the mainstream media is VERY CAUTIOUS....and gets MORE CORROBORATION than other sources.  And I think they "should"....by the way.  So the mainstream media errs on the side of caution.

BUT....if you look at some of the sources "out there"....+....a knowledge of basic human psychology....+.....a knowledge of history:  Then you can figure out some of the things that are GOING TO HAPPEN or that already HAVE HAPPEND (but haven't been reported in the mainstream media).  If you've observed "things" in the past....it helps.

Again....this is NOT ROCKET SCIENCE.  Nor am I some "savant" (I'm definitely NOT).  But I AM...a good "observer."  A good CPA is a good observer....we have some of that already drilled into us.  Maybe it is just something I happen to do well...which is countered by many things I DON'T DO WELL. :-[

Here is my list of how people/organizations either lead or follow the crowd:

1)  Hard core investigation....+....knowledge and observance as to how that investigation fits into the facts and circumstances that are observed....and this requires looking AT ALL THE DOTS and understanding EARLIER THAN OTHERS....how they are fitting together.

2)  Main stream media.....when the reports from #1 above become more numerous....then mainstream media joins the fray.

3)  Public.....over time....sometimes much longer than it should take (much of this based on psychology of people not wanting to be wrong....or people not wanting to ADMIT they are wrong)....then the public is brought along....reluctantly (which is why the polls have moved so slowly).  I noted probably a few weeks ago that I thought the polls would go down SLOWLY.  I expect that to continue.....into NEXT YEARSLOWLY.  We're down to 38% approval which is still 3% above Donnie's all time low of 35%.  We'll go below that level....and we may pick up a little steam this week as things continue to "unwind."

NOTE:  Some people still have a land line.  STILL. ;)  We humans don't change quickly.....  Again...psychology.  Psychology permeates EVERYTHING we do...whether we know it or not.  Powerful stuff.  And very useful in business as well as government....as well as public policy including economic policy.

4)  Government.  Yes....good ole' government.  The PUBLIC needs to lead the government to act....which is why Donnie's polling numbers are so important.  Especially with the Senate and House being controlled by the Republicans.  Remember.....most of us KNOW Donnie is guilty...but that is NOT enough.  He has to be VOTED GUILTY in the House and Senate.  If the polls don't get there....he won't be found guilty.
 
5)  FOX News:  Somebody has to be last...... ;)






Title: Re: Russiagate
Post by: TerryM on May 11, 2017, 08:46:17 PM
Buddy


BudM points out that news sources that are days or weeks ahead of MSM are reporting on events that haven't yet occurred.
I'd like to point out that being the first source of a story is not equivalent to being the most accurate source.


You are again hopeful that Trump will be impeached. Why?


If President Pence has the awesome powers of the presidency thrust upon his broad shoulders, he will take up the mantle knowing he enjoys the full confidence of the Republican Party, and the grudging respect of the Quislings in the Democratic Party that enabled his promotion.


Pence was chosen as Trump's VP because his positions were far to the right of his running mate's. The ticket needed to protect itself from attacks by the right. Those unsure of Trump's far right pedigree needed the assurance that only Pence or Attila the Hun could supply.


Pence will be a strong president. His stature, after saving his nation and his world from the Trumpmonster will be as tall as that of George the Dragonslayer. None will stay his hand. None will dare to cross his shadow.


His policies will mimic Trump's, but with a far harder edge. No more mollycoddling the traitorous lot that preach sedition by claiming that the globe is warming. They won't be fired, they'll end their lives preaching to the rats that infest their sweltering cells in the new Super Max Security Wing of the Private Pence Penal Prison Factory & Re- Education Facility.
Our Northern as well as the Southern Border Walls will be built by Prison Labor Gangs, and the guntowers will face inward. No one will want in, and no one will be allowed out.


In 2027 the now 100% Republican Supreme Court may find that the 2 full term restriction is inapplicable to presidents that were initially thrust into their role, and that the Pence Presidency no longer requires an election to confirm it's obvious legitimacy.


The above was a flight of fantasy. Everyone knows that Pence will become the beloved Statesman that this country has needed so desperately since our beloved Nixon was so callously brought down by treasonous liberals. After pardoning Trump et al for all crimes real or imaginary that he or his may or may not have committed. Pence will get right to work by bombing the poor people of North Korea, thus saving them from the hellish lives they had been living.
Nevil Shute may have written the epilogue.


Terry
Title: Re: Russiagate
Post by: gerontocrat on May 11, 2017, 09:36:17 PM
Terry,
Ne

As you know very well Nevil Shute did write the epilogue. I read "on the beach" as a teenager just after the cuba missile crisis. Living only 60 kms from London my parents only discussed how we were going to die -  quick or slow. And then we had Dr Strangelove.

All we need now is for Dr Strangelove to become part of the Trump team to finish the job.
Title: Re: Russiagate
Post by: Buddy on May 11, 2017, 09:36:46 PM
Quote
You are again hopeful that Trump will be impeached. Why?

It is not that I "hope" he will be impeached.  It is because I THINK he will be impeached.  Two very different things.  I NEVER bet on hope.

Quote
If President Pence has the awesome powers of the presidency thrust upon his broad shoulders, he will take up the mantle knowing he enjoys the full confidence of the Republican Party, and the grudging respect of the Quislings in the Democratic Party that enabled his promotion.

Sorry....he will likely be gone as well.  Really. 8)

Quote
Pence will be a strong president. His stature, after saving his nation and his world from the Trumpmonster will be as tall as that of George the Dragonslayer. None will stay his hand. None will dare to cross his shadow.

Really?  You're serious?  Someone who would have lost the race for the governor of....ah hum....INDIANA...."none will stay his hand."  Surely you jest.

I think you and I need to quit answering each other.  Clearly....we are in different orbits.  Likely different galaxy's.  Instead of talking "past each other".....we probably should agree that we will never agree....and save time and energy for BOTH OF US.

You think there is "nothing there" (per your quote) with the RussiaGate investigation....and we'll just leave it there...OK?

Title: Re: Russiagate
Post by: AbruptSLR on May 12, 2017, 04:00:02 AM
The linked article is entitled: “In a Private Dinner, Trump Demanded Loyalty. Comey Demurred”; who are you going to believe “Self-Serving Trump” or Comey?

https://www.nytimes.com/2017/05/11/us/politics/trump-comey-firing.html?_r=0 (https://www.nytimes.com/2017/05/11/us/politics/trump-comey-firing.html?_r=0)


Extract: “Only seven days after Donald J. Trump was sworn in as president, James B. Comey has told associates, the F.B.I. director was summoned to the White House for a one-on-one dinner with the new commander in chief.

The conversation that night in January, Mr. Comey now believes, was a harbinger of his downfall this week as head of the F.B.I., according to two people who have heard his account of the dinner.

As they ate, the president and Mr. Comey made small talk about the election and the crowd sizes at Mr. Trump’s rallies. The president then turned the conversation to whether Mr. Comey would pledge his loyalty to him.

Mr. Comey declined to make that pledge. Instead, Mr. Comey has recounted to others, he told Mr. Trump that he would always be honest with him, but that he was not “reliable” in the conventional political sense.

The White House says this account is not correct.   And Mr. Trump, in an interview on Thursday with NBC, described a far different dinner conversation with Mr. Comey in which the director asked to have the meeting and the question of loyalty never came up."
Title: Re: Russiagate
Post by: Archimid on May 12, 2017, 04:17:20 AM
Trump was right about something. He could indeed shoot someone on the middle of the street and not lose voters. They are blind.

https://youtu.be/rMmiLWDpCno

Anyone following the climate change debate is already very familiar with this phenomenon. Anyone who has lived in a repressive regime is also familiar with this phenomenon.

I really wish I was wrong about Russiagate, but how can I possibly ignore all the evidence that keeps presenting itself? Its like climate change. The evidence just keeps piling up.

As a preventive argument: I would love nothing more than much closer relations with Russia, so long as those relations are about stopping climate change and defending human rights of all people.  However the association I see is one for massive oil drilling, climate change denial and xenophobia. I'm not interested in that at all.
Title: Re: Russiagate
Post by: AbruptSLR on May 12, 2017, 04:36:49 AM
The linked article is entitled: “Did Trump just admit to obstruction of justice?”, it looks like obstruction of justice to me.

http://www.salon.com/2017/05/12/did-trump-just-admit-to-obstruction-of-justice/ (http://www.salon.com/2017/05/12/did-trump-just-admit-to-obstruction-of-justice/)

Extract: “In Lester Holt’s interview with President Donald Trump on NBC Nightly News that aired earlier tonight, the president defended his sacking of FBI director James Comey and, in a possible gaffe, seems to have admitted that he fired Comey in part because of the agency’s ongoing investigation into the Trump campaign’s collusion with the Russian government.
“I was going to fire Comey,” Trump said defiantly. “When I decided to just do it, I said to myself, ‘You know, this Russia thing with Trump and Russia is a made-up story.'””
Title: Re: Russiagate
Post by: TerryM on May 12, 2017, 04:47:52 AM
Archimid
I'm not understanding the xenophobia you mention. Russia prides itself on being a multicultural society.
What am I missing?
Terry
Title: Re: Russiagate
Post by: SteveMDFP on May 12, 2017, 05:07:56 AM
Archimid
I'm not understanding the xenophobia you mention. Russia prides itself on being a multicultural society.
What am I missing?
Terry

It seems most modern societies are becoming more xenophobic, including Russia.  From:
https://www.opendemocracy.net/od-russia/denys-gorbach-ilya-budraitskis/dreams-of-europe-refugees-and-xenophobia-in-russia-and-ukra (https://www.opendemocracy.net/od-russia/denys-gorbach-ilya-budraitskis/dreams-of-europe-refugees-and-xenophobia-in-russia-and-ukra)

"In 2013, migration became the key topic of the Moscow mayoral elections. In an unusual conjuncture, all the candidates actively employed anti-immigrant rhetoric — Sergei Sobyanin, the incumbent mayor, who enjoyed support from the government; darling of the liberal opposition Alexey Navalny; and Communist Party candidate Ivan Melnikov. This rhetorical contest was ultimately won by Sobyanin as he was the only one able to put his words into action. On the eve of the elections, Sobyanin authorised the roundups of illegal migrants en masse, and ordered the construction of a “concentration camp” for people about to be deported on the outskirts of Moscow.

In Russia, xenophobia has long ago become an efficient tool of manipulating the public in the hands of the government."
Title: Re: Russiagate
Post by: Martin Gisser on May 12, 2017, 05:39:36 AM
Will the Dems start doing some serious (if dirty) backfighting the GOP?

http://thehill.com/homenews/house/332840-pelosi-threatens-to-force-vote-on-outside-russia-probe (http://thehill.com/homenews/house/332840-pelosi-threatens-to-force-vote-on-outside-russia-probe)
Quote
Pelosi threatens to force vote on outside Russia probe

House Democrats are eyeing plans to force a vote on the creation of an independent panel to investigate President Trump’s ties to Russia following the dismissal of FBI Director James Comey this week.
 
Minority Leader Nancy Pelosi (D-Calif.) on Wednesday urged GOP leaders to bring the legislation to the floor next week when Congress returns to Washington following a recess. If they decline, as expected, Democrats will try to force a vote with a discharge petition.
 
“Speaker [Paul] Ryan [R-Wis.] must call up this legislation immediately upon our return next week,” Pelosi wrote Wednesday in a letter to the members of her caucus. “If Republicans continue to work to hide the truth from the American people, it will be necessary for Democrats to file a discharge petition to force a vote on the [legislation].”
...

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Discharge_petition (https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Discharge_petition)
Quote
In United States parliamentary procedure, a discharge petition is a means of bringing a bill out of committee and to the floor for consideration without a report from the committee by "discharging" the committee from further consideration of a bill or resolution.

...
In 1993, the procedure was changed to make every step of the process public, with signers published in the Congressional Record. This change was spearheaded by then–Rep. Jim Inhofe (R–Oklahoma).
...
Title: Re: Russiagate
Post by: budmantis on May 12, 2017, 05:58:28 AM

Terry,
All we need now is for Dr Strangelove to become part of the Trump team to finish the job.

"Mein Fuhrer, I can walk!

BudM
Title: Re: Russiagate
Post by: budmantis on May 12, 2017, 06:28:36 AM
Terry:

In regards to your reply #238, you paint a bleak picture of a Pence presidency, and to think constitutionally he could be president for as long as ten years, depending on timing! The biggest concern I have of a Pence presidency is he would be exactly what the Republican majority in both houses would want in the oval office.

Even if Trump is impeached, President Pence would have a difficult time getting re-elected in 2020 because he has been with Trump from the beginning. Most of us will remember all the pictures of Trump with Pence at his right hand, applauding his ridiculous executive orders, etc. I don't understand how even a conservative Republican with an ounce of integrity can continually support a narcissist and egomaniac like Trump.

Pence is a follower, not a leader and he also lacks charisma. Lastly, I think the Republicans will likely lose the House in 2018 and possibly the Senate in 2020. Perhaps the only way Trump should be impeached is if his "high crimes" become particularly egregious. In the meantime, the Republican majorities and Trump are possibly the best thing to reinvigorate the progressives and to change the Democratic party for the better.

BudM

Title: Re: Russiagate
Post by: TerryM on May 12, 2017, 06:31:51 AM
Archimid
I'm not understanding the xenophobia you mention. Russia prides itself on being a multicultural society.
What am I missing?
Terry

It seems most modern societies are becoming more xenophobic, including Russia.  From:
https://www.opendemocracy.net/od-russia/denys-gorbach-ilya-budraitskis/dreams-of-europe-refugees-and-xenophobia-in-russia-and-ukra (https://www.opendemocracy.net/od-russia/denys-gorbach-ilya-budraitskis/dreams-of-europe-refugees-and-xenophobia-in-russia-and-ukra)

"In 2013, migration became the key topic of the Moscow mayoral elections. In an unusual conjuncture, all the candidates actively employed anti-immigrant rhetoric — Sergei Sobyanin, the incumbent mayor, who enjoyed support from the government; darling of the liberal opposition Alexey Navalny; and Communist Party candidate Ivan Melnikov. This rhetorical contest was ultimately won by Sobyanin as he was the only one able to put his words into action. On the eve of the elections, Sobyanin authorised the roundups of illegal migrants en masse, and ordered the construction of a “concentration camp” for people about to be deported on the outskirts of Moscow.

In Russia, xenophobia has long ago become an efficient tool of manipulating the public in the hands of the government."


I wasn't arguing that Ukraine wasn't a xenophobic hell hole - I usually refer to their leaders as Neo - Nazis. The anti-Putin forces in Russia certainly try using xenophobia to attack Putin's multi-ethnic government, but usually with very little success. The 2nd place finisher in the Moscow election you reference campaigned crying


“Do you want your kids to go to schools where no one speaks Russian?”

as well as other nationalistic rhetoric. He did stun the experts by pulling in over 27% in that vote. This is the same man that recently held a rally at rush hour in front of Moscow's main transportation hub - then wondered why the police broke up the event.


Russia plays host to ~1.5M refugees, with very little backlash.
Canada also prides itself as a multicultural society, and occasionally some firebrand tries to stir things up. Usually with little success.
Terry
Title: Re: Russiagate
Post by: TerryM on May 12, 2017, 06:45:45 AM
Terry:

In regards to your reply #238, you paint a bleak picture of a Pence presidency, and to think constitutionally he could be president for as long as ten years, depending on timing! The biggest concern I have of a Pence presidency is he would be exactly what the Republican majority in both houses would want in the oval office.

Even if Trump is impeached, President Pence would have a difficult time getting re-elected in 2020 because he has been with Trump from the beginning. Most of us will remember all the pictures of Trump with Pence at his right hand, applauding his ridiculous executive orders, etc. I don't understand how even a conservative Republican with an ounce of integrity can continually support a narcissist and egomaniac like Trump.

Pence is a follower, not a leader and he also lacks charisma. Lastly, I think the Republicans will likely lose the House in 2018 and possibly the Senate in 2020. Perhaps the only way Trump should be impeached is if his "high crimes" become particularly egregious. In the meantime, the Republican majorities and Trump are possibly the best thing to reinvigorate the progressives and to change the Democratic party for the better.

BudM


Did every one miss my
"The above was a flight of fantasy"??
Bolded it this time - Ha


I'd counted Pence's possible term to be 11 yrs. He may have little charisma but he did win a governorship IIRC.
Trump seems very likely to fulfill every Republican's dream WRT climate. Pence will certainly fulfill every Republican's dream.
I don't understand why Pence enacting these laws is preferable to Trump signing the same bills?
Terry
Title: Re: Russiagate
Post by: wili on May 12, 2017, 06:53:02 AM
As I understand the strategy, if Trump ends up resigning in disgrace (or leaving office by some other means under heaps of ignominy), Pence, his chosen VP, is not likely to be seen as a strong, or even fully legitimate, president. Weak presidents are less likely to be able to get their way than strong ones.

It may be a flawed strategy, most are. But it doesn't seem as totally irrational to me as you seem to make it out to be.
Title: Re: Russiagate
Post by: budmantis on May 12, 2017, 07:05:28 AM
Terry,

I did notice your "flight of fancy" and consider it the worst case scenario. The term limit to serve as president, (as far as I know) is ten years.

On another matter, I did read Charles Longway's post. When I said you carried the argument too far in regards to Putin's possible interference with our election, I thought you were being obstinate. Perhaps I was wrong, I'll have to reconsider the issue. It's just that the Putin and Russia you portray seems so far removed from what the mainstream media and others have said.

BudM

P.S.: By the way, unlike my ancestors I never liked poutine. Although I rarely indulge in French fries for health reasons, there's nothing like a good home-made French fry!
Title: Re: Russiagate
Post by: TerryM on May 12, 2017, 07:44:54 AM
Wiki


I'll assume that your question is serious, although your way of asking gives me doubts.


De-legitimizing your opponent in a political campaign is a valuable tool that should be used sparingly. Hillary ended up with little in her rhetoric other than "He's bad - I'm Good". It didn't work.


I'd prefer something more akin to "The problems we face are such - our solution is this". followed with a smattering of "The problems we face are such, his solution is to do this, our solution is to do that." - I recognize that a little bit of "He's a Doo-Doo head that can't tie his own shoes" is required, but I think his side is just so much better at this kind of campaigning.


If we were in a position to claim that "His side is in the pocket of the Banksters, while ours is entirely funded by small donors", I'd throw some of that into the mix. If we could legitimately campaign on being "The party that will shut down Citizen's United, & bring back Democracy", it might sell. "Don't vote for your boss - vote for us" has a nice populist ring to it. on the other hand "Vote for us - we'll crush Russia" sounds so 1950's.


I've only been deeply involved in one political campaign. They were the incumbents and were expected to win.
We made our party's mascot the porpoise - never overtly mentioning that they were sharks.
We used every dirty trick in the book to convince them that we were about to pull a dirty trick - and relied on their preemptive salvos to set the tone.
We were expected to pull ~ 10% of the vote, twice what their last opposition had polled.
We won by ~250% with voter turnout far exceeding any past election.


Once was enough, it was exhausting work - primarily making sure that none of our supporters ever sounded a negative note.


Terry
Title: Re: Russiagate
Post by: TerryM on May 12, 2017, 08:25:20 AM
Terry,

I did notice your "flight of fancy" and consider it the worst case scenario. The term limit to serve as president, (as far as I know) is ten years.


I'll bow to your expertise

Quote
On another matter, I did read Charles Longway's post. When I said you carried the argument too far in regards to Putin's possible interference with our election, I thought you were being obstinate. Perhaps I was wrong, I'll have to reconsider the issue. It's just that the Putin and Russia you portray seems so far removed from what the mainstream media and others have said.

You were no more shocked than I. I'd had no particular interest in Russia or Ukraine when I began investigating, and that was only because one side or the other had to be lying through their teeth. I fully expected to find that the Ruskies were lying as usual, and that the noble Ukrainians were fighting valiantly against almost impossible odds.


The site I discovered had over 8k pages when I began, not 8k posts, but 8k pages of posts.
I backread the site and by the time I'd caught up they had over 10k pages.
The evidence was all there, the Odessa Massacre was the bloodiest possibly, certainly the bloodiest attack on civilians. We figured out how the whole thing had been executed, false uniforms, false attacks and feigns, only the red arm bands served to separate the victims from the perpetrators.
Video, pictures, witness statements, and comments from pro Russians, pro Ukrainians and interested observers, perhaps a thousand pages.
About 11.5K pages in and the site was torn down - nothing to mark it's passage. Battles still being fought.
Sorry, carried away in revery.


The point is that I didn't find what I expected to find. All I knew up to then was what the media was feeding me.  Can you imagine if all you knew about global warming was what your favorite news channel, or your local newspaper reported?
Quote
BudM

P.S.: By the way, unlike my ancestors I never liked poutine. Although I rarely indulge in French fries for health reasons, there's nothing like a good home-made French fry!
We had no idea what a poutine might be on our first trip into Quebec. I've since developed a taste for cheese curd, but prefer my fries dunked in white vinegar.


Terry
Title: Re: Russiagate
Post by: Buddy on May 12, 2017, 01:11:21 PM
What have we learned SO FAR in RussiaGate?

If you're in your twenties or early thirties....I hope you're taking the whole "RussiaGate" thing in...and watching closely.  You/we can learn a LOT about human psychology....and then utilize that at work or in your personal life.  Human psychology permeates EVERY part of our life.  The setting of proper INCENTIVES AND DISINCENTIVES is extremely important in business and government (and personally as well...think:  Raising your kids).  And human psychology reacts to the incentives and disincentives in place.  If you have the proper ones in place....it rewards good behavior and punishes bad behavior. 

1) The capacity for humans to lie is rather disturbing...and Donnie & Company are taking this to levels not seen before in the oval office.  It will likely get worse...  So be skeptical.

2)  The capacity for humans to BELIEVE LIES is perhaps even more disturbing...because it highlights how vulnerable we are in the US and elsewhere.  Yes..it CAN happen again....which is why significant changes and safeguards need to be put into place after we get out of this mess.  And yes....there is a definite need for a commission to look at this and offer up changes.

3) The RAT TEST:  If it looks like a rat....talks like a rat....and walks like a rat:  ITS A RAT.  So don't just listen to the words of someone....match them up with what that person is actually doing.  If they don't match....then keep digging and looking for what is wrong...because something is CLEARLY WRONG.  If things "don't make sense"....there are REASONS they don't make sense:  LOOK FOR THEM AND FIND THEM.

4) If you have a boss like Donnie....or a CEO like Donnie....look for another job.  You can learn a LOT MORE under a good boss, than you can under a bad boss.  You can still learn under a bad boss....but most of what you learn IS WHAT NOT TO DO.  So look for A GOOD BOSS...or a company with a GOOD CEO. 

5)  The ROACH THEORY:  If you see one or two roaches.....THERE ARE LIKELY A LOT MORE BEHIND THE WALLS.  If you see a couple issues that just don't make sense....there are likely many other issues lurking.   They run in packs.  There is still a LOT WE DON'T KNOW YET ABOUT RUSSIAGATE.....we are still early in the process....and I think what we will eventually learn about RussiaGate will startle many people.

The process continues....
Title: Re: Russiagate
Post by: AbruptSLR on May 12, 2017, 04:49:46 PM
The linked article is entitled: "Mike Pence is neck-deep in Donald Trump’s James Comey mess", & it makes the case that Pence is not a sweet innocent in this Russiagate mess.

http://www.salon.com/2017/05/12/mike-pence-is-neck-deep-in-donald-trumps-james-comey-mess/ (http://www.salon.com/2017/05/12/mike-pence-is-neck-deep-in-donald-trumps-james-comey-mess/)

Title: Re: Russiagate
Post by: AbruptSLR on May 12, 2017, 05:42:50 PM
The linked article is entitled: "Comey furious at lack of respect White House showed, sources say", & it indicates that Comey will prepare a response to Trump in the coming days; which may tell us more about Trump's obstruction of the Russiagate investigation.

http://abcnews.go.com/US/comey-furious-lack-respect-white-house-showed-sources/story?id=47367073 (http://abcnews.go.com/US/comey-furious-lack-respect-white-house-showed-sources/story?id=47367073)

Extract: "A source said they expect that at some point Comey will respond to Trump -- but it is uncertain when that would be. For now, Comey has taken a few days to gather himself, particularly given how caught off guard he was by the timing of the firing."
Title: Re: Russiagate
Post by: AbruptSLR on May 12, 2017, 09:44:25 PM
The linked article is entitled: "Source: Comey is 'not worried about any tapes'", Trump's veiled threats to Comey are causing a commotion.

http://www.cnn.com/2017/05/12/politics/james-comey-dinner-trump/ (http://www.cnn.com/2017/05/12/politics/james-comey-dinner-trump/)

Extract: "Former FBI Director James Comey is "not worried about any tapes" of conversations between him and President Donald Trump, a source familiar with the matter told CNN Friday, adding that "if there is a tape, there's nothing he is worried about" that could be on it.

Friday morning, Trump issued a thinly veiled threat to Comey, apparently suggesting there are possibly recorded conversations between the two men that could be leaked to counter the former FBI director if necessary."
Title: Re: Russiagate
Post by: AbruptSLR on May 13, 2017, 04:53:17 AM
Here is a small sample of the numerous Palmer Reports about Trump's current troubles:

"New York authorities are going after Paul Manafort’s financial records to get to Donald Trump"

http://www.palmerreport.com/opinion/feds-new-york-manafort/2789/ (http://www.palmerreport.com/opinion/feds-new-york-manafort/2789/)

&

"Treasury Department financial crimes unit agrees to turn over Donald Trump’s records to Senate Intel"

http://www.palmerreport.com/news/crimes-treasury-trump-senate/2782/ (http://www.palmerreport.com/news/crimes-treasury-trump-senate/2782/)

&

"Donald Trump’s bumbling legal action today may have forfeited IRS confidentiality on his tax returns"

http://www.palmerreport.com/opinion/confidentiality-trump-tax-returns/2781/ (http://www.palmerreport.com/opinion/confidentiality-trump-tax-returns/2781/)
Title: Re: Russiagate
Post by: budmantis on May 13, 2017, 06:14:54 AM
Terry:

In regards to your reply number 254, it's a shame that website no longer exists, as I would really like to see it for myself. Are there other resources out there in cyberspace that you're aware of?

BudM
Title: Re: Russiagate
Post by: TerryM on May 13, 2017, 07:23:52 AM
Terry:

In regards to your reply number 254, it's a shame that website no longer exists, as I would really like to see it for myself. Are there other resources out there in cyberspace that you're aware of?

BudM
There were a few that went to the Saker, some others started a not very popular blog whose name will come to me in the middle of the night. I don't know if it's still viable.
I always refrained from posting there as at first I knew nothing, and by the time I did a certain paranoia had taken over.
Ausander(?) at Vineyard of the Saker has written a book or two on his experiences in Crimea at the time. He's an American who quite upfront about what he's witnessed.


Terry

Title: Re: Russiagate
Post by: AbruptSLR on May 13, 2017, 05:04:24 PM
This thread is for discussing every aspect of the alleged (and allegedly successful) attempts by the Russian government to influence the last American presidential elections.

Have at it.

The linked article is entitled: “Adam Schiff on “Real Time with Bill Maher”: James Comey would “still have a job” if there was no there there”; this thread should not be about what Russia is trying to do, it should be about facing-up to what Trump is doing to corrupt not only the USA but also the world (by cooperating with other kleptocrats like Putin).

http://www.salon.com/2017/05/13/adam-schiff-on-real-time-with-bill-maher-james-comey-would-still-have-a-job-if-there-was-no-there-there/ (http://www.salon.com/2017/05/13/adam-schiff-on-real-time-with-bill-maher-james-comey-would-still-have-a-job-if-there-was-no-there-there/)

Extract: “The ranking member of the House Intelligence Committee says that Trump apologists don't realize what is at stake.
...
Maher asked Schiff what he would say to Trump supporters who blindly follow the president.

“As important as the collusion is,” Schiff said, “there is a lot at stake here even beyond that. What people need to recognize is the Russians intervened not just because they wanted to help Donald Trump and not just because they hated Hillary Clinton, they intervened because they wanted to take down our democracy.”

“Just as they wanted to tear down the democracy in France with Marine Le Pen and why they would like to see Angela Merkel defeated,” Schiff added. “There is a real struggle of ideas around the world of authoritarianism versus democracy. Putin is leading the autocratic vanguard and he has imitators in Cairo and Ankara, Turkey and the Philippines.”

“And Trump,” Maher offered.

“And you have a president of the United States who loves these authoritarian figures,” Schiff agreed.”
Title: Re: Russiagate
Post by: AbruptSLR on May 13, 2017, 05:40:18 PM
The linked article is entitled: "Will Trump Be the First to Politicize the FBI?".  Politicizing law enforcement is a clear path towards authoritarianism and away from democracy.

http://www.politico.com/magazine/story/2017/05/12/donald-trump-fbi-kelly-ayotte-john-cornyn-215130 (http://www.politico.com/magazine/story/2017/05/12/donald-trump-fbi-kelly-ayotte-john-cornyn-215130)

Extract: "Shortlist names like Kelly Ayotte and John Cornyn sound like ideal Washington department heads—until you realize why the FBI has never had a political leader."
Title: Re: Russiagate
Post by: TerryM on May 13, 2017, 06:02:34 PM
The linked article is entitled: "Will Trump Be the First to Politicize the FBI?".  Politicizing law enforcement is a clear path towards authoritarianism and away from democracy.

http://www.politico.com/magazine/story/2017/05/12/donald-trump-fbi-kelly-ayotte-john-cornyn-215130 (http://www.politico.com/magazine/story/2017/05/12/donald-trump-fbi-kelly-ayotte-john-cornyn-215130)

Extract: "Shortlist names like Kelly Ayotte and John Cornyn sound like ideal Washington department heads—until you realize why the FBI has never had a political leader."


Surely you jest.
No historic memories of J. Edgar & his boy toy?
Hoover was as political an animal as ever headed any police organization. Found a Commie under every rock & didn't believe in organized crime. No one called him on it because he was blackmailing all of them.
Appointing someone worse than The G. Man would be a difficult task for anyone.
Terry
Title: Re: Russiagate
Post by: AbruptSLR on May 13, 2017, 06:17:38 PM

Surely you jest.
No historic memories of J. Edgar & his boy toy?
Hoover was as political an animal as ever headed any police organization. Found a Commie under every rock & didn't believe in organized crime. No one called him on it because he was blackmailing all of them.
Appointing someone worse than The G. Man would be a difficult task for anyone.
Terry

Terry,

To me your post smack of implying that Trump is not so bad because everyone has a bit of original sin, so just let Trump get on with corrupting the free world.  In other words, to me your posts read like they come from a Trump apologist.

Best,
ASLR
Title: Re: Russiagate
Post by: AbruptSLR on May 13, 2017, 06:18:10 PM
The linked article is entitled: "Opinion President Trump is behaving a lot like someone who colluded with Russia", where there smoke there is fire.


http://www.latimes.com/opinion/readersreact/la-ol-le-trump-russia-comey-20170513-story.html# (http://www.latimes.com/opinion/readersreact/la-ol-le-trump-russia-comey-20170513-story.html#)

Extract: "Now, after Comey asks for more resources for his agency’s investigation, Trump fires him. The Republicans sit idly by while the U.S. government is burning, and Trump is photographed meeting in the White House with his potential co-conspirators. No wonder the photos show them laughing — the joke is on us.

We need a special prosecutor to get to the bottom of this now. If we do not, we will be living in Trump’s alternative universe, being told what to do by a dictator."
Title: Re: Russiagate
Post by: TerryM on May 13, 2017, 06:34:29 PM

Surely you jest.
No historic memories of J. Edgar & his boy toy?
Hoover was as political an animal as ever headed any police organization. Found a Commie under every rock & didn't believe in organized crime. No one called him on it because he was blackmailing all of them.
Appointing someone worse than The G. Man would be a difficult task for anyone.
Terry

Terry,

To me your post smack of implying that Trump is not so bad because everyone has a bit of original sin, so just let Trump get on with corrupting the free world.  In other words, to me you sound like a Trump apologist.

Best,
ASLR


Read what I wrote, don't listen to the voices.
Terry
Title: Re: Russiagate
Post by: AbruptSLR on May 13, 2017, 07:16:58 PM
Read what I wrote, don't listen to the voices.
Terry

While I am well aware of Hoover's checkered past, I provide the following Wikipedia linked article for those less familiar with US history.  Nevertheless, it was not FDR's intent to politicize the FBI when he appointed Hoover, but to any thinking person, it is clear that Trump is trying to politicize the FBI in the middle of an on-going criminal investigation of his campaign and administration.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/J._Edgar_Hoover
Title: Re: Russiagate
Post by: TerryM on May 13, 2017, 08:56:25 PM
Read what I wrote, don't listen to the voices.
Terry

While I am well aware of Hoover's checkered past, I provide the following Wikipedia linked article for those less familiar with US history.  Nevertheless, it was not FDR's intent to politicize the FBI when he appointed Hoover, but to any thinking person, it is clear that Trump is trying to politicize the FBI in the middle of an on-going criminal investigation of his campaign and administration.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/J._Edgar_Hoover (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/J._Edgar_Hoover)


The very few Calvin Coolidge fans left will appreciate you blaming FDR for Hoover's appointment, but when Calvin did appoint Edgar it was to distance himself from allegations that former director William J. Burns had involvement with the teapot scandal. Republican Senator Fall wouldn't be jailed until 1929, but Republican President Warren G. Harding was already stained by the teapot spillage & his Attorney General would be forced from office.


To say that the directorship of the FBI hasn't been a politicized position is simply untenable. If you prefer to re-write history that's fine, but try refrain from stating facts that are so easy to refute.
You're welcome to your own opinions, but not to your own facts.
Don't listen to the voices telling you what you think I'm saying - I'd prefer it if you'd read and respond to what I've actually written.
Terry
Title: Re: Russiagate
Post by: Neven on May 13, 2017, 10:20:28 PM
I think what Terry is saying, is that Trump being in bed with kleptocrats/oligarchs from other countries isn't unprecedented. The same could be said of the Bushes and Clintons, for instance. And hopefully going forward it won't be accepted from any future president to have such close ties to groups of mega-rich people.

As far as 'taking down democracy', etc. Globalisation and unfettered capitalism have already taken care of 90% of that. Maybe it doesn't feel that way to us because consumer culture still offers us plenty of choice/freedom in what we can consume, but when the money of mega-rich people acts like a sort of black hole that sucks everything into it, words like 'democracy' and 'freedom' become relative in that they mostly take place on a material level, for a limited group of people.

And you don't solve that by getting rid of a face you don't like, and replace it with a pretty face.

But let there be no doubt about it: Trump needs to be replaced. Lest you think I'm also a Trump apologist.  ;)

I just hope this Russiagate thing will do the trick, and doesn't backfire (for instance when Trump's oligarchs and those of the Republican Party strike a deal) or turns him into a martyr.
Title: Re: Russiagate
Post by: Neven on May 13, 2017, 10:31:46 PM
And here Jimmy Dore raises several issues that still worry me as well (the amount of attention of speculation that Russiagate gets, when there's still so little known about the investigation + what happens if Trump does get impeached or resigns?). Video is called Bernie: "May Turn Out Trump Did NOT Collude W/ Russia":

! No longer available (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JmXKhTrnpFs#)
Title: Re: Russiagate
Post by: AbruptSLR on May 14, 2017, 01:53:27 AM
Don't listen to the voices telling you what you think I'm saying - I'd prefer it if you'd read and respond to what I've actually written.
Terry

Terry,

I can say the same thing about your posts.

Best,
ASLR

Edit: e.g.:

http://www.politico.com/magazine/story/2017/05/12/donald-trump-fbi-kelly-ayotte-john-cornyn-215130 (http://www.politico.com/magazine/story/2017/05/12/donald-trump-fbi-kelly-ayotte-john-cornyn-215130)

Extract: "After Hoover, Congress agreed that all future directors should be prevented from accumulating such power, yet doing the job well also required a certain freedom from day-to-day politics and short-term thinking, hence the decade-long term.

Ever since, there has always been a clear dividing line between the FBI and the normal and routine “politicization” of the Justice Department by presidential appointees—including the attorney general, deputy attorney general and the half-dozen assistant attorneys general who head the department’s various divisions. “The FBI is in the executive branch,” Comey often said as director, “but not of the executive branch.”

In the FBI’s entire centurylong history, it has never had an expressly political director. Hoover, for all his machinations as director, had actually spent his career at the Justice Department."

Edit2: Also, while it may seem to be splitting hairs, Coolidge appointed Hoover as the sixth Director of the Bureau of Investigation (the FBI's predecessor) in 1924; but Hoover became the first Director of the FBI in 1935.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/J._Edgar_Hoover (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/J._Edgar_Hoover)

Extract: "John Edgar Hoover (January 1, 1895 – May 2, 1972), better known as J. Edgar Hoover, was the first Director of the Federal Bureau of Investigation (FBI) of the United States. He was appointed as the sixth director of the Bureau of Investigation — the FBI's predecessor — in 1924 and was instrumental in founding the FBI in 1935, where he remained director until his death in 1972 at the age of 77

On May 10, 1924, President Calvin Coolidge appointed Hoover as the sixth Director of the Bureau of Investigation, partly in response to allegations that the prior director, William J. Burns, was involved in the Teapot Dome scandal.  When Hoover took over the Bureau of Investigation, it had approximately 650 employees, including 441 Special Agents."

Edit3:  The linked Palmer Report article emphasizes just how political appointing John Cornyn would be:

"We cannot let Donald Trump nominate John Cornyn as FBI Director, and not for the reason you think"

https://www.palmerreport.com/opinion/we-cannot-let-donald-trump-nominate-john-cornyn-as-fbi-director-and-not-for-the-reason-you-think/2794/ (https://www.palmerreport.com/opinion/we-cannot-let-donald-trump-nominate-john-cornyn-as-fbi-director-and-not-for-the-reason-you-think/2794/)
Title: Re: Russiagate
Post by: Buddy on May 14, 2017, 01:57:45 AM
My concern ISN'T if he DOES get impeached......my much greater concern IS IF HE DOESN'T GET IMPEACHED/RESIGN.  THAT....is my worry.
Title: Re: Russiagate
Post by: AbruptSLR on May 14, 2017, 03:31:16 AM
And here Jimmy Dore raises several issues that still worry me as well (the amount of attention of speculation that Russiagate gets, when there's still so little known about the investigation + what happens if Trump does get impeached or resigns?). Video is called Bernie: "May Turn Out Trump Did NOT Collude W/ Russia":

It seems to me that Jimmy Dore is saying: "Why don't the establishment Democrat just sit quietly and let Donald Trump interfere with the Russia-Trump investigation as much as he wants".  As the linked article entitled: "How the President Obstructed Justice"; many legal scholars think that there is already sufficient public information to prove that Trump is obstructing justice.  Thus it is likely that without political cover by establishment GOP members like Paul Ryan and Mitch McConnell, Trump could very soon be facing charges.

http://www.slate.com/articles/news_and_politics/jurisprudence/2017/05/did_president_trump_obstruct_justice_in_firing_james_comey.html (http://www.slate.com/articles/news_and_politics/jurisprudence/2017/05/did_president_trump_obstruct_justice_in_firing_james_comey.html)

Extract: "Why legal scholar Laurence Tribe believes Trump committed impeachable offenses in his firing of James Comey."


Edit: See also the article entitled: "Paul Krugman: The Republican Party Is Just as Treasonous as Trump"

http://www.alternet.org/news-amp-politics/paul-krugman-republican-party-just-treasonous-trump (http://www.alternet.org/news-amp-politics/paul-krugman-republican-party-just-treasonous-trump)

& the article entitled: "Donald Trump's Financial Ties to Russian Oligarchs and Mobsters Detailed In Explosive New Documentary from the Netherlands"

http://www.alternet.org/video/donald-trumps-financial-ties-russian-oligarchs-and-mobsters-detailed-new-documentary (http://www.alternet.org/video/donald-trumps-financial-ties-russian-oligarchs-and-mobsters-detailed-new-documentary)
Title: Re: Russiagate
Post by: TerryM on May 14, 2017, 01:53:28 PM
And here Jimmy Dore raises several issues that still worry me as well (the amount of attention of speculation that Russiagate gets, when there's still so little known about the investigation + what happens if Trump does get impeached or resigns?). Video is called Bernie: "May Turn Out Trump Did NOT Collude W/ Russia":

! No longer available (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JmXKhTrnpFs#)


I think Jimmy's been reading this thread !!!


Collusion ???
What happens if he is impeached ???


I brought both topics up at a dinner last evening in Toronto. Both (ALL) sides of the political spectrum, except possibly moderates, were well represented.
Everyone in this group of Canadians sees whatever is going on now in the USofA to be one of the most dangerous threats to democracy that the West has faced in a very long time.
The US really does exert a tremendous influence on the rest of the world. If the US has no faith in her own electoral processes, why should the rest of the West have faith in the US?
The West may not always follow America's wants, nor give in to her demands, but the US is usually given the benefit of doubt. When American's claim that their election was a fraud & that their President is a liar and a cheat, how do you think the rest of the world should react?


We remember both Red Scare Witch Hunts, some other nations piled on too, but most now rue their actions.
Our leaders for the most part chant "Down With Putin", it's expected of them - but the citizenry are not entirely convinced. Canadians, to my disappointment, are pretty anti-Russian, possibly because of the large numbers of Ukrainians, Poles and Estonians that immigrated here after WWII. We have little like for, and even less respect for Trump. But we see what's occurring as a rhyme to the Red Scare of a generation past, and don't relish a repeat.
We (Canadians) didn't do Vietnam & we didn't do Iraq, and everyone I've met is proud of those decisions. We did lock up our Japanese, and some others during WWII, most feel this left a dark stain on our nations pride.
However things work themselves out south of the border, it's unlikely that Canadians will think it reflects well on your country. If Trump is vindicated, the cry will be. "Why did you persecute this innocent man?". If Trump is impeached, the cry will be, "Why did you elect this flawed man?"


Estonia, Poland, Ukrainian, China, and Serbia were all represented at the dinner, as was Israel, America, the British Isles and Canada, not bad for <40 in attendance. Canada is a country that prides itself on her diversity. All were in agreement that even if Russia had attempted to "hack the election", it almost certainly would have had little effect.


Probably 25% of those present had at least some software development experience. Lots of PhD's, lots of STEM grads and Professors. Not perhaps a good cross section, but definitely an interested demographic.


Hearts and minds are important & you're not operating in a vacuum.
You can tell me that what a bunch of egg heads in Toronto think doesn't matter, but don't complain when we're all driving Japanese or European cars.


Terry

Title: Re: Russiagate
Post by: AbruptSLR on May 14, 2017, 05:02:15 PM
The parade of Palmer Reports on Russiagate continue:

“Investigation into Donald Trump’s Russia scandal has ensnared Donald Jr, Eric and Ivanka”

http://www.palmerreport.com/politics/eric-ivanka-jr-trump-russia/2812/ (http://www.palmerreport.com/politics/eric-ivanka-jr-trump-russia/2812/)

Extract: “The investigation into Donald Trump’s Russia scandal has become so far reaching that it involves not only two branches of the United States government, but also the intelligence agencies of a number of foreign nations. It’s become so sprawling that there are reportedly at least twenty-eight people being targeted. And now comes confirmation that three of them are Donald Trump’s children.“

&

“Report: sealed indictment issued against Donald Trump”

http://www.palmerreport.com/opinion/report-fisa-court-issues-sealed-indictment-against-donald-trump/2810/ (http://www.palmerreport.com/opinion/report-fisa-court-issues-sealed-indictment-against-donald-trump/2810/)

Extract: “And what they’re jointly saying tonight is that a sealed indictment has been delivered against Donald Trump.

Let’s be clear here: this is not an indictment against a Donald Trump associate or adviser, or some other ancillary player. Taylor and Mensch are jointly stating tonight on Mensch’s site that the sealed indictment is against Donald Trump himself.

That may sound unlikely, considering Trump’s own Republican Party has a majority in both the House and Senate. But my own stated view all along has been that if damning enough evidence against Trump surfaces in the Russia scandal such that his approval rating falls far enough, the Congressional Republicans in moderate states and districts will have to consider moving forward with the impeachment process in order to protect their own chances of reelection in the midterms. In such case the GOP would put its own interests before Trump. And only around 10% of the Republicans in the House would need to join House Democrats to form the simple majority vote required to begin impeachment hearings."
Title: Re: Russiagate
Post by: wili on May 14, 2017, 05:52:21 PM
Thanks for your answer, Terry. So we agree that delegitimizing someone in power can be a valuable, if flawed, tool. I would say that it becomes more necessary as the power differential shifts. The Dems are now now in the minority in the House and Senate, they don't hold the White House, and they are in the process of seeing the SCOTUS return to majority conservative.

I'd say that they have to use every tool in their arsenal at this point.

But yeah, I always prefer purely positive campaigns, but then I'm rather politically naive.

I helped a friend get through a local primary. Found myself effectively using verbal trickery in negotiations with the other candidates. Scared myself that I was so good at it. Not something I want to do again anytime soon.
Title: Re: Russiagate
Post by: AbruptSLR on May 14, 2017, 07:03:43 PM
The linked Joe Romm article is entitled: "Will Trump’s spiraling constitutional crisis end up saving the Paris climate deal?".  Will Trump's firing of Comey encourage Trump to work more cooperatively with foreign leaders?

https://thinkprogress.org/will-trump-crisis-save-paris-262dbf73d294

Extract: "“Presidents who get into trouble at home look to engage other leaders on the world stage to demonstrate legitimacy.”"
Title: Re: Russiagate
Post by: Buddy on May 15, 2017, 02:12:12 AM
I smell the scent of "shit hitting the fan" this week.  A lot of seams are unwinding:

1)  Continued reaction to the Comey firing
2)  More dots connecting Manafort and Russia medeling starting at least in March/April of 2016
3)  James Clapper stepping up to the plate big time...
4)  Donnie threating to end daily briefings
5)  Comey more than happy to meet with the Senate AS LONG AS IT IS PUBLIC....

The process will continue with ebbs and flows.....this week I expect to TOP LAST WEEK.....

Here's an interesting read...take your time reading this one.  It is well worth it....

http://www.bluedotdaily.com/april-16th-the-moment-trumprussia-scandal-started-but-everyone-missed-it/?utm_source=facebook&utm_medium=LL&utm_campaign=facebook_LL (http://www.bluedotdaily.com/april-16th-the-moment-trumprussia-scandal-started-but-everyone-missed-it/?utm_source=facebook&utm_medium=LL&utm_campaign=facebook_LL)

And the PalmerReport is always an interesting read....

http://www.palmerreport.com/opinion/flunky-trump-indictment/2818/ (http://www.palmerreport.com/opinion/flunky-trump-indictment/2818/)

This could be Spricey's last week.  I will miss him when he goes.

Remember....Donnie loves confusion....especially when bad things are happening in his camp.  I expect a lot of fireworks to come....





Title: Re: Russiagate
Post by: AbruptSLR on May 15, 2017, 02:55:57 AM
The linked article is entitled: "‘It’s inevitable’: GOP senators warn Trump he’ll be breaking the law if he doesn’t turn over Oval Office tapes".

https://www.rawstory.com/2017/05/its-inevitable-gop-senators-warn-trump-hell-be-breaking-the-law-if-he-doesnt-turn-over-oval-office-tapes/ (https://www.rawstory.com/2017/05/its-inevitable-gop-senators-warn-trump-hell-be-breaking-the-law-if-he-doesnt-turn-over-oval-office-tapes/)

Extract: "On NBC’s “Meet the Press,” Republican Sen. Lindsey Graham (R-SC) said “If there are any tapes of this conversation, they need to be turned over.”

Former federal prosecutor-turned-Senator Mike Lee (R-UT) told Fox News that “it’s probably inevitable” that any ‘Trump tapes’ that exist will be turned over to Congress, and if not, they will likely be subpoenaed."
Title: Re: Russiagate
Post by: Buddy on May 15, 2017, 01:48:22 PM
Pressure:  The burden of physical or mental distress.

As noted before....the continual application of pressure causes mistakes.  The more pressure, the more mistakes.  The longer that pressure lasts....the more mistakes happen.

Donnie is likely becoming more and more delusional as time passes.....and as his "inner circle" becomes smaller and smaller.  Do we have 15 more months of this until US Representatives and Senators have had enough?  Maybe.  Paul Ryan and Mitch McConnell haven't "broken ranks" yet.  So there is certainly more time ahead of us.

Now.....the pressure is even starting to spillover to at least one part of TASS FOX News via Chris Wallace.  THAT....is not going to help approval polls over the coming weeks if that continues.

As you can see on the latest Gallup opinion poll......Donnie's approval rating is now down to 39% and his disapproval is up to 56% as of the latest Gallup poll of May 13th.  I expect his poll numbers to continue to SLOWLY worsen in coming weeks/months.  It may take many months to move down to the 30% approval area or BELOW.  Clearly.....Paul Ryan and Mitch McConnell need more "persuading"....and more "pressure" in order to change their minds.

The fascinating thing for me....is to watch and see how long it will be until DONNIE CAVES....or if indeed he does cave.  Richard Nixon was delusional right to the end in August of 1974.  Looking and hoping for any way possible to make his way through the mine fields.  I expect Donnie may do the same.  One of the differences THIS TIME however.....is the inclusion of the three stooges from his family into the mess:  Ivanka, Eric, and Donald Jr.  THEY have been swept up into this whole mess.....and they will be facing charges.   Whether or not THAT will cause Donnie to "throw in the towel" earlier than Richard Nixon did.....we don't know.  Donnie had no problem getting them involved in this mess in the first place.....it might be out of character for him to consider anyone else other than himself now.  They could be used as a "bargaining chip" down the road:  Donnie will "give up the fight"....if they cut a deal for his kids.  Just a thought....you may want to file that one away for a bit.

I also have to think that Donnie's tax returns ARE GOING TO BE SUBPEONED.  Maybe that could be a tipping point for Donnie.  I don't know.  It's hard to predict what the mind of a sociopath is thinking.  Look for a crazy week this week. 

Also....I wonder what Donnie is going to talk to Vlad' about when the Russian president meets with him in two months (July) in Washington DC?  Maybe a "vacation house" in Russia for the Trumps? ;)
 



Title: Re: Russiagate
Post by: Buddy on May 15, 2017, 02:16:37 PM
Mitch McConnel (the leader in the senate) and Paul Ryan (the leader in the House of Representatives)...still haven't "broken" from Trump. They will eventually....but it is going to take more "persuassion" from the public (meaning: Lower poll ratings for Donnie).

It's pretty amazing to me.....that both Paul Ryan and Mitch McConnel put their party ideology ahead of what's good for the country. But that is EXACTLY what they are doing.

BOTH of them have so far refused to ask for an INDEPENDENT PROSECUTOR in the RussiaGate investigation. They CLEARLY NEED MORE PRESSURE:

McConnell phone number: (270) 781-1673
Paul Ryan phone number: (608) 752-4050


You may want to give them a call to "guide" them in the right direction.
Title: Re: Russiagate
Post by: Buddy on May 15, 2017, 03:57:57 PM
I'm sure there is nothing here..... ;)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1nf0K713Zv4 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1nf0K713Zv4)

Again....here are Mitch and Paul's phone numbers for a little "persuasion":

McConnell phone number: (270) 781-1673
Paul Ryan phone number: (608) 752-4050
Title: Re: Russiagate
Post by: Buddy on May 15, 2017, 04:34:04 PM
Part II......"nothing here"..... ;)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-LxtQ0CMzQQ (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-LxtQ0CMzQQ)
Title: Re: Russiagate
Post by: Buddy on May 15, 2017, 05:03:23 PM
Putin and Trump scheduled to meet in Hamburg during the G20 meetings.  Think the US intelligence agents are going to be working OVERTIME in the next month or two BEFORE THAT MEETING?

http://www.cnn.com/2017/05/11/politics/trump-putin-meeting-hamburg/ (http://www.cnn.com/2017/05/11/politics/trump-putin-meeting-hamburg/)

Things are going to pick up the pace in coming days........  WATCH THE DOTS.....THEY ARE CONNECTING.....

Tick....tick....tick.....tick....
Title: Re: Russiagate
Post by: pileus on May 15, 2017, 11:55:42 PM
With today's news that POTUS Trump revealed highly sensitive and classified information to the Russian FM and Ambassador in the Oval Office, along with everything from last week, the process for Trump's departure will likely accelerate.  What's completely unclear is the final disposition, and what comes afterwards.
Title: Re: Russiagate
Post by: Archimid on May 15, 2017, 11:57:39 PM
Remember that meeting at the request of Putin the day after the head of the FBI was fired? That was Putin's men collecting.

Trump revealed highly classified information to Russian foreign minister and ambassador.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/national-security/trump-revealed-highly-classified-information-to-russian-foreign-minister-and-ambassador/2017/05/15/530c172a-3960-11e7-9e48-c4f199710b69_story.html (https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/national-security/trump-revealed-highly-classified-information-to-russian-foreign-minister-and-ambassador/2017/05/15/530c172a-3960-11e7-9e48-c4f199710b69_story.html)

Extract:
Quote
President Trump revealed highly classified information to the Russian foreign minister and ambassador in a White House meeting last week, according to current and former U.S. officials, who said Trump’s disclosures jeopardized a critical source of intelligence on the Islamic State.

The information the president relayed had been provided by a U.S. partner through an intelligence-sharing arrangement considered so sensitive that details have been withheld from allies and tightly restricted even within the U.S. government, officials said.


The article notes this is perfectly legal. The president can declassify documents whenever he wants.  So nothing to see here. It is perfectly legal for the president to reveal national security sources if he wants.
Title: Re: Russiagate
Post by: Jim Pettit on May 15, 2017, 11:58:53 PM
So now the President is a traitor to the US, having leaked highly-classified intelligence to the Russians (https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/national-security/trump-revealed-highly-classified-information-to-russian-foreign-minister-and-ambassador/2017/05/15/530c172a-3960-11e7-9e48-c4f199710b69_story.html?utm_term=.5cce699f78f7) who visited with him in the Oval Office out of sight of the American press the day after he fired the Director of the FBI who was investigating Trump for colluding with the Russians.

I suppose tomorrow we'll be subjected to McConnell and Ryan saying that we simply can't respond every time the President discloses classified data to our enemies...
Title: Re: Russiagate
Post by: Buddy on May 16, 2017, 02:50:42 PM
Quote
On June 3rd, Americans across the nation will take to the streets, marching to demand answers and transparency regarding the investigation into Russia's interference in our election and their ties to Donald Trump.
http://shareblue.com/more-than-70-cities-will-march-for-truth-to-demand-independent-russian-probe/#.WRqNWU82I_M.facebook (http://shareblue.com/more-than-70-cities-will-march-for-truth-to-demand-independent-russian-probe/#.WRqNWU82I_M.facebook)

The process continues.....


Title: Re: Russiagate
Post by: gerontocrat on May 16, 2017, 03:13:24 PM
Remember that meeting at the request of Putin the day after the head of the FBI was fired? That was Putin's men collecting.

Trump revealed highly classified information to Russian foreign minister and ambassador.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/national-security/trump-revealed-highly-classified-information-to-russian-foreign-minister-and-ambassador/2017/05/15/530c172a-3960-11e7-9e48-c4f199710b69_story.html (https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/national-security/trump-revealed-highly-classified-information-to-russian-foreign-minister-and-ambassador/2017/05/15/530c172a-3960-11e7-9e48-c4f199710b69_story.html)

Extract:
Quote
President Trump revealed highly classified information to the Russian foreign minister and ambassador in a White House meeting last week, according to current and former U.S. officials, who said Trump’s disclosures jeopardized a critical source of intelligence on the Islamic State.

The information the president relayed had been provided by a U.S. partner through an intelligence-sharing arrangement considered so sensitive that details have been withheld from allies and tightly restricted even within the U.S. government, officials said.


The article notes this is perfectly legal. The president can declassify documents whenever he wants.  So nothing to see here. It is perfectly legal for the president to reveal national security sources if he wants.

It may be legal but that does not stop it from being dumb. He may have given the Russians sufficient info to let them follow the trail to the source. In the worst case scenario, that could put someone's life at risk. In the best case scenario, the US's allies (and the US intelligence agencies themselves) may / will be reluctant to pass on intelligence of a very sensitive nature to the leaky bucket that is the White House.

A secret shared is no longer a secret.
Title: Re: Russiagate
Post by: Hefaistos on May 16, 2017, 03:21:35 PM
So now the President is a traitor to the US, having leaked highly-classified intelligence to the Russians (https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/national-security/trump-revealed-highly-classified-information-to-russian-foreign-minister-and-ambassador/2017/05/15/530c172a-3960-11e7-9e48-c4f199710b69_story.html?utm_term=.5cce699f78f7) who visited with him in the Oval Office out of sight of the American press the day after he fired the Director of the FBI who was investigating Trump for colluding with the Russians.

I suppose tomorrow we'll be subjected to McConnell and Ryan saying that we simply can't respond every time the President discloses classified data to our enemies...

Maybe we should call it co-operation?
Title: Re: Russiagate
Post by: Buddy on May 16, 2017, 03:35:36 PM
In the not-too-distant future....I think we can expect to see demonstrations IN FRONT OF THE WHITE HOUSE with his own immortal words:

LOCK HIM UP

And those crowds will continue to grow in size......UNTIL THERE IS A SPECIAL PROSECUTOR.

Pressure is going to mount throughout the summer.  If Donnie wants to "string this thing out"....it is going to cost both him and the Republicans a great deal.  The longer this goes on....the better and better it gets for the Democrat's.

If I were a Republican strategist......I would want my folks to end the charade AS QUICKLY AS POSSIBLE.  The trouble with that is.....RussiaGate is SO BROARD AND SO DEEP.....there is no way to end this thing quickly.  This is not "your fathers Watergate."  This is soooooo much more.



Title: Re: Russiagate
Post by: AbruptSLR on May 16, 2017, 05:54:44 PM
The linked Palmer Report article raises the important question of how long Trump has been giving classified US secrets to Russia:

"Based on Donald Trump’s own words, I think he’s been giving classified info to Russia since March"

http://www.palmerreport.com/opinion/march-trump-russia/2861/ (http://www.palmerreport.com/opinion/march-trump-russia/2861/)
Title: Re: Russiagate
Post by: ritter on May 16, 2017, 06:25:38 PM
So now the President is a traitor to the US, having leaked highly-classified intelligence to the Russians (https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/national-security/trump-revealed-highly-classified-information-to-russian-foreign-minister-and-ambassador/2017/05/15/530c172a-3960-11e7-9e48-c4f199710b69_story.html?utm_term=.5cce699f78f7) who visited with him in the Oval Office out of sight of the American press the day after he fired the Director of the FBI who was investigating Trump for colluding with the Russians.

I suppose tomorrow we'll be subjected to McConnell and Ryan saying that we simply can't respond every time the President discloses classified data to our enemies...

Maybe we should call it co-operation?

Unless you're doing it rogue without consultation with the rest of your security team. Somehow, this doesn't look like cooperation.
Title: Re: Russiagate
Post by: Csnavywx on May 16, 2017, 06:35:20 PM
This thing running on forever without any concrete evidence falling on the floor is going to backfire eventually. Voters will eventually say PUSU: Put up or shut up.

The fact is -- one can interpret the tea leaves any way he or she likes. But tea leaves don't stand up in court. The investigation will continue sans Comey (it always was anyways). There is strong risk to the downside for news organizations engaging in heavy speculation though. If it turns out there isn't any serious collusion (or about anything necessarily important) then the entire strategy backfires.
Title: Re: Russiagate
Post by: Buddy on May 16, 2017, 07:32:29 PM
Quote
This thing running on forever without any concrete evidence falling on the floor is going to backfire eventually.

Not sure you understand how they do investigations in the US.  They investigate FIRST....THEN prosecute.  We're not to the prosecute stage where we begin to see all the pieces fitting together.

Quote
Voters will eventually say PUSU: Put up or shut up.

You're dreaming.  We have a long way to go.... and Donnie's approval ratings continue to fall.  Nixon didn't reach the low point of his approval ratings for more than another year FROM NOW....
Title: Re: Russiagate
Post by: pileus on May 16, 2017, 07:33:58 PM
This thing running on forever without any concrete evidence falling on the floor is going to backfire eventually. Voters will eventually say PUSU: Put up or shut up.

The fact is -- one can interpret the tea leaves any way he or she likes. But tea leaves don't stand up in court. The investigation will continue sans Comey (it always was anyways). There is strong risk to the downside for news organizations engaging in heavy speculation though. If it turns out there isn't any serious collusion (or about anything necessarily important) then the entire strategy backfires.

Pinning explicit collusion with Russia's actions to influence the election directly on Trump may be extremely difficult in a court of law, less so with some in his campaign that have fewer layers of deniability.

What is more likely proven from an evidentiary process relate to his known history of financial struggles and debt and associations with Russian monied interests, so money laundering and RICO statutes.  The investigations in process include these financial elements, but there needs to be proof.

Trump by his recent actions and instability is ironically increasing the odds of Republicans considering replacement via Amendment 25 incompetence provisions, but we all knew the guy was unfit from the get go.  He's his own worst enemy right now, not the media or the courts.
Title: Re: Russiagate
Post by: Archimid on May 16, 2017, 08:02:49 PM
I don't think there will ever find enough evidence for a criminal case, at least not on Putin's side or for Trump personally. Many of the middlemen have already been caught and many more may be caught. It hasn't phased anyone. The ones that can do something stand to lose too much to do something.

The proof will be in Trumps presidency. The policy that Putin was able to infiltrate is already large at work. The US is surrendering international power. protectionism and xenophobia are taking hold. Trump is doing a fantastic job denying climate change. If Trump is not impeached, the policies will take hold and Trump will increase his influence through judges, Attorneys and all sort of named officials whose number one selection criteria was loyalty to Trump. Trump will continue to leak information to Putin since he already set the precedent.

Now eventually, once the US is weak, Putin will turn on Trump. At that point Trump will realize how foolish he was.... hahaha just kidding, he will never realize he was duped, he'll just blame somebody else.

The proof will be the downfall of the US and the rise of Russia. 

Edit: the preceding analysis completly ignores a blue ocean event. If that happens forget about economics and politics as we know them.
Title: Re: Russiagate
Post by: Archimid on May 16, 2017, 08:17:30 PM
For those who haven't noticed, the information that Trump gifted to Russia will likely end up known by Russian ally, Al Assad, who will probably fill incinerators with people related to this source.
Title: Re: Russiagate
Post by: ritter on May 16, 2017, 10:29:34 PM


Edit: the preceding analysis completly ignores a blue ocean event. If that happens forget about economics and politics as we know them.

Unfortunately, I don't think most people will notice or care unless it hits them in the [empty] stomach. Blue ocean event is in the works, this year or soon thereafter, but I don't expect it will change much until the impacts are undeniably bad on one's home turf.
Title: Re: Russiagate
Post by: Neven on May 16, 2017, 10:51:42 PM
Here's another Jimmy Dore video that I just know you're going to love  ;) . It's called Exactly What Is Trump Accused Of With Russia?. It's quite funny and has some good advice at the end (be careful what you wish for):

! No longer available (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I7r2qsEfU-s#)
Title: Re: Russiagate
Post by: pileus on May 16, 2017, 10:58:10 PM


Edit: the preceding analysis completly ignores a blue ocean event. If that happens forget about economics and politics as we know them.

Unfortunately, I don't think most people will notice or care unless it hits them in the [empty] stomach. Blue ocean event is in the works, this year or soon thereafter, but I don't expect it will change much until the impacts are undeniably bad on one's home turf.

Agreed.  When Arctic sea ice goes below 1M km2 for the first time, it will get more media play than usual, but the vast majority of people will be unaware or will not care.  If anything the focus will be on Russia's plans to expand oil and gas exploration.
Title: Re: Russiagate
Post by: Neven on May 17, 2017, 12:09:32 AM
Agreed.  When Arctic sea ice goes below 1M km2 for the first time, it will get more media play than usual, but the vast majority of people will be unaware or will not care.  If anything the focus will be on Russia's plans to expand oil and gas exploration.

No, I think the focus is going to be on Russiagate.
Title: Re: Russiagate
Post by: pileus on May 17, 2017, 12:18:48 AM
Agreed.  When Arctic sea ice goes below 1M km2 for the first time, it will get more media play than usual, but the vast majority of people will be unaware or will not care.  If anything the focus will be on Russia's plans to expand oil and gas exploration.

No, I think the focus is going to be on Russiagate.

WRT to the Arctic, it will likely be on opportunities to expand oil and gas exploration.

US politics?  Russiagate will settle down by the time there is a blue ocean event (even in unlikely event that it happens this September, as Donald Trump will not be president any longer).  He won't survive today's news.
Title: Re: Russiagate
Post by: ritter on May 17, 2017, 12:27:10 AM
  He won't survive today's news.
Wish I shared your optimism. I suspect we'll have several more years of being force fed bullshit while politics spiral out of control before he's gone.
Title: Re: Russiagate
Post by: Archimid on May 17, 2017, 12:35:00 AM
A blue ocean event will be felt over the whole northern hemisphere. The world will not be same afterwards. Everything will change for everybody, mostly for the worse. That includes super powers, Trump, Putin, you and me.

Neven that video is disingenuous. I couldn't get past 5 minutes. They are using exactly the same strategy as climate change deniers to lessen the gravity of the situation. Sow doubt here, muddle the facts there, make fun of very serious topics ect.

The reality is that both Trump and Putin are accomplished criminals. They know the laws and have teams making sure anything they do is untraceable. The only reason some of Trump's lackeys have been caught is because they were foolish enough to think they were not being watched.

Right now it does it matter the extent to which Trump was aware of Russian moves. Trump has already committed obstruction of justice.
Title: Re: Russiagate
Post by: Neven on May 17, 2017, 01:02:00 AM
Quote
The reality is that both Trump and Putin are accomplished criminals. They know the laws and have teams making sure anything they do is untraceable. The only reason some of Trump's lackeys have been caught is because they were foolish enough to think they were not being watched.

Right now it does it matter the extent to which Trump was aware of Russian moves. Trump has already committed obstruction of justice.

I hope you're right.

Bush and his cabinet were war criminals, taking money from God knows where. None of them are in jail. The Clintons have taken millions and millions from Russia and Saudi Arabia. They're not traitors. Obama, another war criminal.

Okay, I get it. This is different. Everybody in Washington hates Trump and he grabs women by their you know where. He's (still) not part of the establishment oligarchy.

Quote
Neven that video is disingenuous. I couldn't get past 5 minutes. They are using exactly the same strategy as climate change deniers to lessen the gravity of the situation. Sow doubt here, muddle the facts there, make fun of very serious topics ect.

I said you would like it, didn't I?  ;)

He's not sowing doubt. He just wants to know what the exact collusion is that everyone is going hysterical over. He's not muddling facts. He says he probably knows too little about it. And yes, he is making fun of certain aspects of it.

If it would be as clear-cut as the clickbait mainstream media makes it out to be, you would expect much more to be known as fact already.

I'm going to wait and see how this plays out. But Dore has two good points:

1) There is a tremendous amount of speculation and innuendo, fuelled by an ardent wish to get rid of Trump asap, but no one can explain what it is exactly that Trump did.
2) Be careful what you wish for. Maybe this isn't the best way for Democrats to capitalize on the Trump failure.
Title: Re: Russiagate
Post by: AbruptSLR on May 17, 2017, 02:03:22 AM
The linked article is entitled: "Trump 'asked FBI to halt Flynn inquiry'"

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-39944520 (http://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-39944520)

Extract: "The White House better batten down the hatches. A storm is brewing."
Title: Re: Russiagate
Post by: Buddy on May 17, 2017, 02:15:35 AM
More roaches.....the pack is becoming a herd.😳

Tick.....tick......tick......tick
Title: Re: Russiagate
Post by: Martin Gisser on May 17, 2017, 02:48:43 AM
The Clintons have taken millions and millions from Russia and Saudi Arabia.
Lock her up! Lock her up! Lock her up! - Oops, wrong session... :)

Can you dig out some sources and details, maybe even context? I'm sick and tired of fact checking Clinton smear from the lefty circular firing squad. E.g. "Hillary's Saudi friends", said some time ago here on the forum, is pure and simple smear. Possibly Jimmy Dore said it? :)
Title: Re: Russiagate
Post by: Buddy on May 17, 2017, 03:14:41 AM
The funny thing with RussiaGate.....is that we haven't even gotten to the "juicey stuff" yet.😳
Title: Re: Russiagate
Post by: Martin Gisser on May 17, 2017, 03:32:16 AM
Neven that video is disingenuous. I couldn't get past 5 minutes. They are using exactly the same strategy as climate change deniers to lessen the gravity of the situation. Sow doubt here, muddle the facts there, make fun of very serious topics ect.
Against my promise I clicked the video and skipped to ca. 1:45 and then had to stop and check that "plutonium" thing. Uranium it was - and the last to parrot that bullshit should have been Trump last year. Maybe I was too mild with Jimmy Dore...

FAKE meme from last year:
(https://forum.arctic-sea-ice.net/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.snopes.com%2Fwordpress%2Fwp-content%2Fuploads%2F2016%2F10%2Fclinton-uranium.jpg&hash=eb6d83844eacdf4f9d88bda7e8b20460)

http://www.snopes.com/hillary-clinton-uranium-russia-deal/ (http://www.snopes.com/hillary-clinton-uranium-russia-deal/)

http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter/statements/2016/jun/30/donald-trump/donald-trump-inaccurately-suggests-clinton-got-pai/ (http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter/statements/2016/jun/30/donald-trump/donald-trump-inaccurately-suggests-clinton-got-pai/)
Title: Re: Russiagate
Post by: AbruptSLR on May 17, 2017, 03:47:40 AM
The linked article is entitled: "Trump 'asked FBI to halt Flynn inquiry'"

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-39944520 (http://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-39944520)

Extract: "The White House better batten down the hatches. A storm is brewing."

Also see the article entitled: "Congress Rattled by Reports Trump Tried to End Flynn Probe"

http://www.nbcnews.com/politics/congress/congress-rattled-reports-trump-tried-end-flynn-probe-n760521 (http://www.nbcnews.com/politics/congress/congress-rattled-reports-trump-tried-end-flynn-probe-n760521)

Extract: ""This stunning, breathtaking revelation that the president is accused of reaching out directly to the head of the FBI to stop an investigation on General Flynn under these circumstances raises serious questions of obstruction of justice," Senate Democratic Whip Richard Durbin said."
Title: Re: Russiagate
Post by: Neven on May 17, 2017, 06:59:51 AM
The Clintons have taken millions and millions from Russia and Saudi Arabia.
Lock her up! Lock her up! Lock her up! - Oops, wrong session... :)

Can you dig out some sources and details, maybe even context? I'm sick and tired of fact checking Clinton smear from the lefty circular firing squad. E.g. "Hillary's Saudi friends", said some time ago here on the forum, is pure and simple smear. Possibly Jimmy Dore said it? :)

Sure, I'll post something on the Corporate Democrats thread. I'm surprised you think it's all a smear, implying there's nothing there to feed that perception. I mean, Bill went to Moscow for a 500K speech at a Russian investment bank with ties to the Kremlin (New York Times (https://www.nytimes.com/2015/04/24/us/cash-flowed-to-clinton-foundation-as-russians-pressed-for-control-of-uranium-company.html?_r=2)).

My point is that I'm still not so sure that Trump is going to be impeached over this. Not that I don't want him to not be impeached (even though I'm not sure if that would be the best thing strategically), but I thought Bush would be impeached too, and even jailed, along with Cheney and Wolfowitz and all the other neocons. They never were. And at face value, what they did, was much worse than what that idiot Trump has done so far.
Title: Re: Russiagate
Post by: TerryM on May 17, 2017, 11:32:53 AM

Although I think it's more likely that whoever phished the DNC's password from Podesta leaked the contents, it's still worth investigating the reason Assange had for offering a reward for information about Rich's murder.
He was young, apparently idealistic, may have felt strongly about the DNC dealing unfairly with Bernie's supporters, and he had access to the information. Now someone claims he gave Wikileaks bunches of information.
Not much to go on, but when investigations start, who knows where they'll lead.
Terry
Title: Re: Russiagate
Post by: Neven on May 17, 2017, 11:39:35 AM
There's something I don't get. The argument is that Trump fired Comey to thwart the collusion investigation, right? He wants it to go away. But firing Comey only makes it worse. Now everyone is even more up in arms, and it's not like that was unforeseen.

This is kind of counterintuitive. I mean, we know he's nuts, but he's not that stupid.
Title: Re: Russiagate
Post by: Buddy on May 17, 2017, 12:42:18 PM
Quote
There's something I don't get.

You're making progress if you now know that you don't get it.  THAT...is the first step.  And THAT was the core of my frustration with you.  You clearly DID NOT SEE WHAT WAS HAPPENING.  You didn't understand....the human psychology involved. 

Quote
The argument is that Trump fired Comey to thwart the collusion investigation, right? He wants it to go away. But firing Comey only makes it worse. Now everyone is even more up in arms, and it's not like that was unforeseen.

This is kind of counterintuitive. I mean, we know he's nuts, but he's not that stupid.

If you are waiting or expecting Donnie to be RATIONAL....then you have a VERY...VERY....LONG WAIT AHEAD OF YOU.

If you understood the history of Watergate.....or you understood the psychology behind a sociopath.....then you would understand.

Human psychology is MANY TIMES NOT RATIONAL.  Donnie is now like a cornered and wounded tiger. HE WILL DO ANYTHING.  And the trouble is....back in 2016....HE ALREADY DID WHAT HE WILL BE IMPEACHED FOR.

Donnie has ALWAYS BEEN A CON MAN.  HIS WHOLE LIFE.    Without Russian financing....he would be broke.  And yes.....3 years from now...maybe less....HE WILL BE BROKE.  PERIOD.  Because now....he clearly has NO BRAND that anyone wants to touch.

We will eventually get to the "juicy stuff" in due time.  For now...we are only up to "Watergate level".  It will go MUCH....MUCH....HIGHER.  And it will lead....hopefully....to some changes in some things regarding US elections.....as well as to some safeguards in removing someone in office.  Because without a STRONG FBI director like Comey.....we could have been toast.  And if Donnie were able to replace Comey with someone "loyal" to him....we could still be toast.

But don't expect anything RATIONAL from Trump.....  And certainly don't expect anything ETHICAL.  His delusional actions will only get worse until he is removed...

Title: Re: Russiagate
Post by: Buddy on May 17, 2017, 01:07:19 PM
Human psychology is at the HEART of what has happened to Trump.  In business....I see human psychology at work ALL THE TIME.  Good leaders have a grasp on human psychology, if only by the good grace of genetics.  Whether you are looking at sports.....and team like the Chicago Cubs under its new leader over the last few years.....or you're looking at politics or business. 

And we have to understand psychology.  If we understand psychology.....then we will see the "red flags" of something gone amiss.....much earlier than we would otherwise.  That is WHY many people didn't see this back in early 2016 or AT LEAST by the time of the Republican Convention.  Because those red flag events......MADE NO SENSE.  And there is ALWAYS a reason for things.

And....there is ALWAYS A PROCESS for things.  Even if it is an "ill conceived or random" process.   And the "process" for removing Donnie continues.  As his poll numbers continue to drop....more and more lemmings will jump from the good ship Titantic.  Not all people will jump from the ship.  But for Donnie to get impeached.....enough of them have to.  That will require about 10% of the Republicans in the US House of Representatives I believe (I have NOT done the actual math...but that is what I have read....so I'll check that at some point) in order to impeach him and move the "prosecution phase" to the Senate.

Look for Donnie's poll numbers to continue to weaken.  When they weaken enough....and when the clamors for impeachment grow loud enough....that next phase of the process will start.   Not before.

The process continues.......

   
Title: Re: Russiagate
Post by: SteveMDFP on May 17, 2017, 01:29:01 PM
There's something I don't get. The argument is that Trump fired Comey to thwart the collusion investigation, right? He wants it to go away. But firing Comey only makes it worse. Now everyone is even more up in arms, and it's not like that was unforeseen.

This is kind of counterintuitive. I mean, we know he's nuts, but he's not that stupid.

I think there's an abundance of evidence that Trump is exactly that stupid.  He's got a limited skill set.  He, like most successful narcissists, knows how to work a crowd, how to manipulate, how to bully.  Not much else.  He's been working in high-money finance his whole life, but he calls up a friend at 2 AM to ask whether a stronger or weaker dollar is better for the US?  That's just plain stupid.

In the midst of health care legislation crafting, he publicly exclaims "nobody knew health care was so complicated." That's just plain stupid.  Want more examples?  I could go on and on and on.

But firing Comey wasn't stupid, just a desperate "Hail Mary pass." If Comey were hell-bent on pursuing the Flynn investigation, and if that investigation were likely to show impeachable misconduct by Trump, then there was nothing else Trump could do.  Fire Comey, hire a sympathetic mercenary, and hope to ride out the storm.

The ultimate stupidity Trump has displayed is failing to recognize that running a shady, sleazy set of businesses is incompatible with being President -- the intense, relentless scrutiny of holding high office makes the downfall of a modern scoundrel inevitable.
Title: Re: Russiagate
Post by: Buddy on May 17, 2017, 01:51:08 PM
1:  First....SteveMDFP...ABSOLUTELY RIGHT (on all parts of your post).  Donnie is not very smart.

2:  Second....and in a very real way, unrelated to RussiaGate.  While EVERYONE is now watching RussiaGate, one of the interesting things for me to keep my eye on is how QUICKLY the world is HELL BENT ON MOVING TO RENEWABLE POWER (both for transportation AND home/business use).  Fascinating....and as I noted several months ago, is one of the bedrocks of a strengthening economy world wide....and will be for the next 10+ years....

For me....we will get to the point (hopefully) that it is a foregone conclusion that Donnie was in bed with the Russians...and then the process of getting enough Republicans to impeach him can take place.  When that takes place....I will "move on" from this issue.  There are MANY MANY other important issues.  Like...how fast can we move society towards renewable energy.......how can we improve politics and economics in the US and the world....how can we "put back" some of the protections that the "black dude" put in place when he was president and that Donnie has now destroyed....  Some of that is being done on a state-by-state basis...but more has to be done.

But as I tried to explain to some folks.....we have to put out the forest fire that is Donnie FIRST...before we can move on to those other VERY IMPORTANT ISSUES....
 

 
Title: Re: Russiagate
Post by: Martin Gisser on May 17, 2017, 02:42:24 PM
There's something I don't get. The argument is that Trump fired Comey to thwart the collusion investigation, right? He wants it to go away. But firing Comey only makes it worse. Now everyone is even more up in arms, and it's not like that was unforeseen.

This is kind of counterintuitive. I mean, we know he's nuts, but he's not that stupid.

I think there's an abundance of evidence that Trump is exactly that stupid.  He's got a limited skill set.
...
Yeah, very limited. He got that far because he had a rich dad and excellent and ruthless lawyers. And he sure thinks his success story is his work, not theirs. Paradigmatic Dunning-Krüger.
But:

Quote
But firing Comey wasn't stupid, just a desperate "Hail Mary pass." If Comey were hell-bent on pursuing the Flynn investigation, and if that investigation were likely to show impeachable misconduct by Trump, then there was nothing else Trump could do.  Fire Comey, hire a sympathetic mercenary, and hope to ride out the storm.
Methinks it was beyond stupid, a case for gerontological psychiatry:
He comitted an impeachable offense, obstruction of justice, in order to delay an investigation that hasn't yet produced any public evidence of something impeachable. He has grown the storm he wants to ride out. More people more furious. More FBI agents working overtime. More leaks. More Republicans trying to cover their asses. Trump is now dead in the water, at least half a year earlier than necessary.

If it isn't old age mental illness, then it is an abyss of corruption that makes him and his advisers so nervous and hysterical that they can't even grasp basic tactics anymore.
Title: Re: Russiagate
Post by: Neven on May 17, 2017, 02:58:33 PM
Donnie Tiny Hands is definitely as stupid as he seems if he thought he could ride out the storm, after increasing it tenfold by firing Comey.

Quote
If it isn't old age mental illness, then it is an abyss of corruption that makes him and his advisers so nervous and hysterical that they can't even grasp basic tactics anymore.

Yes, that's what surprises me. They ran a pretty smart/good* campaign, tactically speaking, even though HRC was probably the biggest gift the DNC could have given them.

* And evil, of course. I'm looking at it from a US election perspective, where everything goes.

---

I just hope this forest fire doesn't take years to extinguish, because all those other important issues are enormously urgent. There's also a high likelihood that trust in the US political system sinks to an even lower point, especially if Trump doesn't exit because of his policies, but rather because of his personality and the 'collusion'. It's possible that to a lot of people this means that no matter who you vote in, if the elites don't approve, that person won't even finish one term. Either he/she gets shouted out, or he/she is liquidated. I don't know how you get that trust back (and thus inspire people to do something for their country and fellow men), especially given the state of both duopoly parties.

And I also hope that this president sets a precedent for other presidents. If Trump and his collusion becomes the standard, there will be no more financing and training of terrorists, no more illegal wars, no more meddling in the elections of other nations (no matter their resources) and no more receiving of millions of dollars in donations by banks, oligarchs and foreign governments.
Title: Re: Russiagate
Post by: Buddy on May 17, 2017, 04:10:06 PM
Tick...tick....tick....tick....

https://www.leftscoop.com/2017/05/busted-paul-ryan-mitch-mcconnell-caught-engaging-highly-illegal-activity-rains-pours/ (https://www.leftscoop.com/2017/05/busted-paul-ryan-mitch-mcconnell-caught-engaging-highly-illegal-activity-rains-pours/)

From twitter entry of Claude Taylor:

"Starting to hear chatter that there are intercepts with Paul Ryan and Mitch McConnell discussing funneling illegal money into campaign."

NOT YET CORRABORATED..........but will not be surprising.  As I have said too many times already.....most people don't understand the DEPTH and BREADTH of RussiaGate yet.  They will eventually, as long as the FBI is able to do their job.

It will be interesting to see when the information about Donnie working with FOX News comes out (yea....I'm talking about YOU SEAN).  That will be fun.....

We have a LONG....LONG......way to go before all the roaches are brought out into the sunlight of truth to be friend.

Tick.....tick....tick....tick...   

Title: Re: Russiagate
Post by: Buddy on May 17, 2017, 04:29:47 PM
By the way.....IF Ryan is implicated.....we would then be looking at President Oren Hatch (of Utah) eventually..... :o

It will depend on the timing of "when people go."  For instance.....if Ryan were to step down from his speaker position and then be replaced by someone BEFORE Donnie is booted....then Ryan's replacement would be the new president (assuming of course....than Mikey Pence is also booted).

That is ALL CONJECTURE RIGHT NOW.....but just something to file away.  At some point in the coming months....it could interesting as people AND the Republican party "jockey" to see who the replacement will be....and who the Republicans WANT it to be (by replacing Ryan with whoever they want in the President's role eventually).



Title: Re: Russiagate
Post by: pileus on May 17, 2017, 05:45:43 PM
As noted previously the most likely direct linkage to Trump and Russia collusion would have its genesis in money laundering and/or RICO related violations.  The WSJ (property of Fox News owner Murdoch) broke a story this morning on Russian connected financing of a Trump property in Canada, where the links begin with Putin and end with Trump.

https://www.wsj.com/articles/russian-state-run-bank-financed-deal-involving-trump-hotel-partner-1495031708 (https://www.wsj.com/articles/russian-state-run-bank-financed-deal-involving-trump-hotel-partner-1495031708)

"U.S. investigators are looking into any ties between Russian financial institutions, Mr. Trump and anyone in his orbit, according to a person familiar with the probe. As part of the investigation, they’re examining interactions between Mr. Trump, his associates and VEB, which is now subject to U.S. sanctions, said another person familiar with the matter. The Toronto deal adds a new element to the list of known connections between Mr. Trump’s associates and Russia."
Title: Re: Russiagate
Post by: Buddy on May 17, 2017, 06:42:52 PM
There are MANY moving parts to RussiaGate.   But two of the more interesting things for me to watch will be (1) involvement of banks .....from Deutchebank to other major banks that MAY be "complicit"...to banks in Cyprus....(2) to Wilbur Ross who is a cabinet member of Donnie's cabinet....and has many, many ties to various banks.

Me thinks....that there may be some bankers that are now a tad worried about their complicity in various deals over the past two or more years.  Not that bankers would EVER do anything wrong mind you. ;)

I hope that some of you are now beginning to see how COMPLEX this who shindig is....especially compared to Watergate.  Watergate was a "nothing burger" compared to what we will see when this puppy is wrapped up.  As the layers of the onion continue to be peeled off in the many months ahead.....there are going to be a lot of roaches scrambling for cover.





Title: Re: Russiagate
Post by: AbruptSLR on May 17, 2017, 09:29:46 PM
The linked Palmer Report article is entitled: "Rachel Maddow confirms Palmer Report’s earlier report about Trump-related grand jury in New York".

http://www.palmerreport.com/politics/maddow-palmer-report-grand-jury/2887/ (http://www.palmerreport.com/politics/maddow-palmer-report-grand-jury/2887/)

Extract: "… this evening, Rachel Maddow confirmed on-air on MSNBC that a grand jury has issued a subpoena for New York based Trump associate Paul Manafort."
Title: Re: Russiagate
Post by: Neven on May 17, 2017, 10:00:12 PM
Can anyone explain to me what that Seth Rich thing is about? Is there any evidence that he did or didn't leak those DNC mails?

I was so busy last year looking at Arctic sea ice that all this stuff went past me (given that I don't own a TV and only keep an eye on a handful of (mostly Dutch and Austrian) news sources).
Title: Re: Russiagate
Post by: Martin Gisser on May 17, 2017, 11:58:14 PM
Can anyone explain to me what that Seth Rich thing is about? Is there any evidence that he did or didn't leak those DNC mails?
Faux news. No evidence. See CNN quote below.


05/16/2017 04:43 pm ET
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/fox-news-conspiracy-theory-wikileaks-seth-rich_us_591b493ee4b07d5f6ba6d027 (http://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/fox-news-conspiracy-theory-wikileaks-seth-rich_us_591b493ee4b07d5f6ba6d027)
Quote
Fox Pushes WikiLeaks Murder Conspiracy From Man Who Warned Of Armed Lesbian Pedophiles

Fox News and the network’s affiliate in Washington, D.C., are advancing a conspiracy theory about the death of former Democratic National Committee staffer Seth Rich, suggesting in two stories on Monday that Rich’s slaying may be the result of his supposed links to WikiLeaks.

The only named source in both stories is Rod Wheeler, a former Washington Metro Police investigator and Fox News contributor who has previously claimed that “a national network” of armed lesbians was roaming the country and sexually assaulting children. ...

Police have said Rich was fatally shot in July during a botched robbery attempt. But Reddit users and online conspiracy sites were quick to argue that Rich played a part in WikiLeaks obtaining and leaking thousands of internal DNC emails — implying that Democratic presidential nominee Hillary Clinton and the Democratic Party had him killed as retaliation.

Multiple sources have publicly contradicted this, however: The U.S. intelligence community released a report in January concluding that WikiLeaks obtained its material last summer from Russia-backed hackers working as part of a Russian effort to help make Donald Trump president.

...

May 17, 2017: 6:49 AM ET
http://money.cnn.com/2017/05/16/media/seth-rich-family-response-claims-of-wikileaks-contact/index.html (http://money.cnn.com/2017/05/16/media/seth-rich-family-response-claims-of-wikileaks-contact/index.html)
Quote
Story on DNC staffer's murder dominated conservative media -- hours later it fell apart
...

But Tuesday afternoon, Wheeler told CNN he had no evidence to suggest Rich had contacted Wikileaks before his death.

Wheeler instead said he only learned about the possible existence of such evidence through the reporter he spoke to for the FoxNews.com story. He explained that the comments he made to WTTG-TV were intended to simply preview Fox News' Tuesday story.
...
Title: Re: Russiagate
Post by: AbruptSLR on May 18, 2017, 12:14:24 AM
The linked article is entitled: "Senate Intelligence Committee invites Comey to testify publicly".

http://www.cbsnews.com/news/senate-intel-committee-invites-comey-to-testify-asks-for-any-memos/ (http://www.cbsnews.com/news/senate-intel-committee-invites-comey-to-testify-asks-for-any-memos/)

Extract: "The Senate Intelligence Committee on Wednesday formally invited fired FBI Director James Comey to testify, and asked FBI Acting Director Andrew McCabe for any memos or other notes the FBI possesses from Comey about his communications with administration officials.

The committee made the requests Wednesday in two separate letters, one to Comey and one to McCabe. In one letter, the committee asked Comey to testify in both open and closed sessions. Comey has previously said he would only testify in an open session. In the other letter, the committee asked McCabe for "any notes or memorandum" Comey prepared about any communications he had with senior White House or Department of Justice officials about Russia-related investigations. The request came the day after a report that President Donald Trump asked Comey to drop an investigation into former national security adviser Michael Flynn's ties to Russia and Turkey, per a memo Comey wrote after his February meeting with the president.

Speaking with reporters on Capitol Hill, the committee's ranking member, Democratic Sen. Mark Warner, said he is pretty confident Comey will testify and hopes the "majority" of what the ousted FBI director says will be in an open-hearing setting. But some testimony will necessarily be behind closed doors, because "unlike the White House, we treat classified information with the appropriate respect and follow the rules," Warner said."
Title: Re: Russiagate
Post by: AbruptSLR on May 18, 2017, 12:24:33 AM
The linked article is entitled: "Special Counsel Will Take Over FBI Russia Campaign Interference Investigation".  I hope they give him an adequate budget, as this investigation is getting bigger all the time.

http://www.nbcnews.com/politics/politics-news/special-counsel-will-take-over-fbi-russia-campaign-interference-investigation-n761271 (http://www.nbcnews.com/politics/politics-news/special-counsel-will-take-over-fbi-russia-campaign-interference-investigation-n761271)

Extract: "Bowing to public and Congressional pressure, Deputy U.S. Attorney General Rod Rosenstein appointed former FBI Director Bob Mueller on Wednesday to be a special counsel overseeing the investigation into Russian interference in the 2016 campaign, Justice Department officials said.

Mueller will take command of the prosecutors and FBI agents who are working on the far reaching Russia investigation, which spans multiple FBI field offices on both coasts.

Mueller led the FBI for 12 years under Presidents George W. Bush and Barack Obama. He is second only to J. Edgar Hoover for longest tenure for an FBI chief."
Title: Re: Russiagate
Post by: Buddy on May 18, 2017, 01:25:35 AM
Paul Ryan has some 'splaining to do.

Title: Re: Russiagate
Post by: Buddy on May 18, 2017, 02:38:01 AM
Mitch has 'splaining to do as well.  Things may get even CRAZIER over next couple of weeks.  I wonder how many agents are watching our pal SEAN at TASS (previously known as FOX)?

Tick....tick......tick......tick
Title: Re: Russiagate
Post by: AbruptSLR on May 18, 2017, 03:49:58 AM
The linked Palmer Report is unverified, but if true is mind blowing:

“Multiple reports suggest Donald Trump gave contents of James Comey’s FBI computer to Russia”

http://www.palmerreport.com/politics/computer-comey-russia/2905/ (http://www.palmerreport.com/politics/computer-comey-russia/2905/)

Extract: “It’s now well established that Donald Trump fired FBI Director James Comey the day before he met with the Russians in the Oval Office and gave them classified information, setting off a firestorm of controversy. But now multiple reports point to Trump also having given the Russians something else during that meeting: the contents of James Comey’s computer.

As always, you can take these reports for what you think they’re worth. But it’s worth noting that Trump made the bizarre decision to send Schiller of all people to deliver the termination notice, suggesting some sort of hijinks.“
Title: Re: Russiagate
Post by: ChasingIce on May 18, 2017, 06:22:30 AM
Wow
A bold move going straight to the heart of the matter.


We, the Democrats, progressives, liberals, environmentalists, or whatever we call ourselves today face a pivotal decision. Do we accept blame for the outcome of the recent election, or do we externalize it, blaming everyone but ourselves and our parties leaders?
Terry

I love Terry a lot.  I wish he would of kept the 2nd post to just this.   

Very profound.
Title: Re: Russiagate
Post by: SteveMDFP on May 18, 2017, 07:56:11 AM


 . . . There's also a high likelihood that trust in the US political system sinks to an even lower point, especially if Trump doesn't exit because of his policies, but rather because of his personality and the 'collusion'. It's possible that to a lot of people this means that no matter who you vote in, if the elites don't approve, that person won't even finish one term. Either he/she gets shouted out, or he/she is liquidated. I don't know how you get that trust back (and thus inspire people to do something for their country and fellow men), especially given the state of both duopoly parties.


Quite the opposite.  Trump is besieged only because of his own corruption and idiocy, not because he's targeted by any 'elites.'  Not because of cruel and stupid policies, either.  Massive protests of his anti-muslim travel ban, for example, didn't have a whiff of effect on the actual policy, judicial review is what nullified it.  The overall constitutional system worked, and sane people are reassured by that.

The overall constitutional, legal, official system (plus leaks/whistleblowers) is what has completely emasculated Trump's ability now to push through ANY of his neo-fascist agenda through Congress.  The overall constitutional, legal, official system is grinding the gears of investigation that will expose corruption and illegal acts, and remove this supremely dangerous, unstable man from power.

The American people will more carefully scrutinize those who seek high office, but will be reassured that the overall constitutional system is effective and sound.

Nixon's Watergate scandal didn't result in public apathy or cynicism after he was gone, it created an enduring focus on clean, open government.  It took a few decades for the public to lose focus and allow corrupt, sleazy people to thrive in government leadership positions. 

History isn't exactly repeating the Watergate process, but it's rhyming.  The consequences of Russiagate (etc) are likely to result, again, in some rejuvenation of public engagement and focus on cleaner, more transparent governance.
Title: Re: Russiagate
Post by: SteveMDFP on May 18, 2017, 08:29:00 AM
The linked Palmer Report is unverified, but if true is mind blowing:

“Multiple reports suggest Donald Trump gave contents of James Comey’s FBI computer to Russia”

http://www.palmerreport.com/politics/computer-comey-russia/2905/ (http://www.palmerreport.com/politics/computer-comey-russia/2905/)

Extract: “It’s now well established that Donald Trump fired FBI Director James Comey the day before he met with the Russians in the Oval Office and gave them classified information, setting off a firestorm of controversy. But now multiple reports point to Trump also having given the Russians something else during that meeting: the contents of James Comey’s computer.

As always, you can take these reports for what you think they’re worth. But it’s worth noting that Trump made the bizarre decision to send Schiller of all people to deliver the termination notice, suggesting some sort of hijinks.“

The report doesn't make sense, that Schiller went into Comey's office and simply copied information off the hard drive.  Government computers have encrypted hard drives with 2-factor authorization.  Shiller's a bodyguard, not a computer geek.  He could have opened the computer and pulled out the hard drive, that's possible.  The only other alternative is that he booted the computer with his own (or illegally borrowed) credentials, which leaves an indelible computer trail on servers--but even that wouldn't readily permit access to Comey's files.  Either way, there'd be hard evidence of felony-level crimes immediately apparent.  And the felony could not have happened without conspiracy with others, specifically including Trump.

It's hard to believe Trump *and* Schiller could be this stupid.
Title: Re: Russiagate
Post by: TerryM on May 18, 2017, 10:24:30 AM
The linked Palmer Report is unverified, but if true is mind blowing:

“Multiple reports suggest Donald Trump gave contents of James Comey’s FBI computer to Russia”

http://www.palmerreport.com/politics/computer-comey-russia/2905/ (http://www.palmerreport.com/politics/computer-comey-russia/2905/)

Extract: “It’s now well established that Donald Trump fired FBI Director James Comey the day before he met with the Russians in the Oval Office and gave them classified information, setting off a firestorm of controversy. But now multiple reports point to Trump also having given the Russians something else during that meeting: the contents of James Comey’s computer.

As always, you can take these reports for what you think they’re worth. But it’s worth noting that Trump made the bizarre decision to send Schiller of all people to deliver the termination notice, suggesting some sort of hijinks.“

The report doesn't make sense, that Schiller went into Comey's office and simply copied information off the hard drive.  Government computers have encrypted hard drives with 2-factor authorization.  Shiller's a bodyguard, not a computer geek.  He could have opened the computer and pulled out the hard drive, that's possible.  The only other alternative is that he booted the computer with his own (or illegally borrowed) credentials, which leaves an indelible computer trail on servers--but even that wouldn't readily permit access to Comey's files.  Either way, there'd be hard evidence of felony-level crimes immediately apparent.  And the felony could not have happened without conspiracy with others, specifically including Trump.

It's hard to believe Trump *and* Schiller could be this stupid.


I bolded one statement in a rather lengthy back and forth.


When crazies are shouting a myriad of often conflicting things from the balconies, the bleachers and possibly the loonie bin, noting that it doesn't make sense can be the first step in separating the wheat from the chaff.
Once we've noted that a certain statement doesn't make sense we can move out to whoever wrote the statement, whoever published the statement and whoever promoted the statement.


Are they too ignorant of the subject to realize that it doesn't make sense, do they believe the readership is too ignorant to notice?
 I believe our own Philosopher President once offered a short homily on the topic. "Fool me once, shame on --shame on you. Fool me -- you can't get fooled again"


I think we agree, the past is over. :-\


Terry
Title: Re: Russiagate
Post by: Martin Gisser on May 18, 2017, 11:40:56 AM
The report doesn't make sense, that Schiller went into Comey's office and simply copied information off the hard drive.  Government computers have encrypted hard drives with 2-factor authorization.  Shiller's a bodyguard, not a computer geek.  He could have opened the computer and pulled out the hard drive, that's possible.  The only other alternative is that he booted the computer with his own (or illegally borrowed) credentials, which leaves an indelible computer trail on servers--but even that wouldn't readily permit access to Comey's files.  Either way, there'd be hard evidence of felony-level crimes immediately apparent.  And the felony could not have happened without conspiracy with others, specifically including Trump.

It's hard to believe Trump *and* Schiller could be this stupid.
OTOH it is not easy to believe that a U.S. public servant's computer should not be accessible by the man who has the Red Button.
Title: Re: Russiagate
Post by: TerryM on May 18, 2017, 11:48:32 AM

OTOH it is not easy to believe that a U.S. public servant's computer should not be accessible by the man who has the Red Button.
I remember him. Short skinny guy whose hair made Lucy's look beige. Didn't know anyone'd had him for decades.
 8)
Title: Re: Russiagate
Post by: Martin Gisser on May 18, 2017, 12:01:32 PM
this forest fire doesn't take years to extinguish
Dumpster fire, as Dan Rather of Watergate fame put it.
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/dumpster-fire-slang-history_us_576474d4e4b015db1bc97923 (http://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/dumpster-fire-slang-history_us_576474d4e4b015db1bc97923)

But it was just smouldering until to/yester day. Now the smoke finally got hot enough to catch flame...
Either Trump resigns within the next days (my bet is on today) or the U.S. is toast, pocketed by Putin. (Oops, didn't I pontificate on the dangers of the tertium non datur? :) )
Finally, time to me relax, grab popcorn and just wait for news to come or not...
Title: Re: Russiagate
Post by: Martin Gisser on May 18, 2017, 12:41:12 PM
Before I grab the popcorn, here's the play's book:
https://patribotics.blog/2017/01/17/dear-mr-putin-lets-play-chess-louise-mensch-trump-russia/
Title: Re: Russiagate
Post by: TerryM on May 18, 2017, 12:59:56 PM
this forest fire doesn't take years to extinguish
Dumpster fire, as Dan Rather of Watergate fame put it.
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/dumpster-fire-slang-history_us_576474d4e4b015db1bc97923 (http://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/dumpster-fire-slang-history_us_576474d4e4b015db1bc97923)

But it was just smouldering until to/yester day. Now the smoke finally got hot enough to catch flame...
Either Trump resigns within the next days (my bet is on today) or the U.S. is toast, pocketed by Putin. (Oops, didn't I pontificate on the dangers of the tertium non datur? :) )
Finally, time to me relax, grab popcorn and just wait for news to come or not...


Martin
I apologist for not having read your link yet, but I'm reading Trump's resignation as something that you really believe will happen in the very near future. I'm not in country and am in no position to gauge the temper there.


I follow the internet, not news sources, and to say I'm alarmed at your comments is an understatement.


I've been assured on many occasions that Putin is not the target, that Trump is. Yet you fear that Putin will do what?


The US & NATO have been pushing closer to Russia's borders for a long time, The Weeklies and Monthlies have been demonizing Putin since the Sochi Olympics.
I was sure that if Hillary had become president, war with Russia would follow quite rapidly. Are you telling me that Trump will be deposed and the war that the neo-cons have been slavering for will follow immediately after Trump's out of the way?
If so.
Don't worry about the civil war that Trump's ouster will provoke.
Say goodbye to everyone you care for.


I'll take the time to read your article now.
Bye
Terry
Title: Re: Russiagate
Post by: TerryM on May 18, 2017, 01:25:51 PM
Martin


Your opening article is from June of 2016, updated in January of this year. Hardly counts as news.


Your last article has Putin playing chess against the West. As far back as Nixon and Kissinger it was recognized that Soviet, now Russian strategy, is based on the game of Go. Any source that mentions Putin's "chess moves", is 50 years out of date, and almost certainly not worth my time to read.


If you force Trump to resign, the South will Rise again, bringing the blue collar boys along for the ride. I know you'll be ready with your loaded popcorn machine, but take a look at Ukraine to see how well these things usually work out.


"Put them to the knife" has a nice ring to it, don't you think? and that was the government boys.
Bye
Terry
Title: Re: Russiagate
Post by: Neven on May 18, 2017, 01:44:08 PM
Before I grab the popcorn, here's the play's book:
https://patribotics.blog/2017/01/17/dear-mr-putin-lets-play-chess-louise-mensch-trump-russia/

I'm amazed at how someone can write in such an omniscient way (even knowing people's thoughts and motivations) and with such relish. This person must really pine for the Cold War with all its spy heroics and paranoia.  :D

I'm used to reading this kind of stuff on extreme right-wing conspiracy sites, but it seems the left is catching up. Where's the scepticism?
Title: Re: Russiagate
Post by: Neven on May 18, 2017, 01:59:12 PM
I'm also getting tired of the house of cards built upon 'sources close to the intelligence community report'. Why are there so few hard facts from known, tangible sources? It all reads like a John le Carré novel, where a handful of characters are all-powerful and determine the fate of the world.

I'm sure ratings are soaring, as everyone seems to be in a permanent frenzy. But maybe that's just my impression, because I don't have the time to venture far outside the ASIF.
Title: Re: Russiagate
Post by: Buddy on May 18, 2017, 02:22:59 PM
Quote
I'm used to reading this kind of stuff on extreme right-wing conspiracy sites, but it seems the left is catching up. Where's the scepticism?

I'm not going to apologize for "Patriotbots"...or whatever that site was that Martin linked.  BUT...like ALL SOURCES...whether direct (via people you know) or through the mainstream media or the "blog media".....like PalmerReport....they ALL should looked at with a SKEPTICAL EYE.

That is the true meaning of skeptic:  Someone who is skeptical of EVERYTHING.   Not just one side or the other.  Just as...I am sure....that you view Jimmy Dore with a skeptical eye. ;)

As a source "racks up wins" (in other words....their batting average is close to a thousand)....then you should gain a "comfort" (but NEVER an ABSOLUTE comfort).

But what happens when someone MISSES SOMETHING that turns out to be true?  Say....for instance....the largest political scandal of modern times?  Should someone view THAT source more skeptically for missing something....or massively underestimating something like that?  I would think so...but that is just me.



 



Title: Re: Russiagate
Post by: SteveMDFP on May 18, 2017, 02:58:58 PM
I'm also getting tired of the house of cards built upon 'sources close to the intelligence community report'. Why are there so few hard facts from known, tangible sources?

Because of the nature of the allegations and suspicions, the relevant evidence would be from classified information.  A *named source* would be on an express train to a prison term.  The sort of leaks springing up now can *only* come via un-named sources. 

Any un-named source should be viewed with some skepticism, but not dismissal.  A whole raft of un-named sources, with un-named corroboration, reported by generally reliable media (Washington Post, NYTimes, etc.) should be considered reasonably reliable in overall thrust.

There's not just smoke from the white house, there's a real fire.
Title: Re: Russiagate
Post by: Martin Gisser on May 18, 2017, 03:09:53 PM
Sorry, my dumpster fire link was meant for English MA level explanation of that wörd. (Neven is a genius language professional.)

That "spy novel" link is by Louise Mensch, who got many things quite right. As an ex math TA I can smell degrees of consistency :) . She is one of the best-connected commentators to them spies and them hackerz, European and U.S. (E.g. just ponder what she wrote about Comey and the FBI, January 2017. I bet (but don't "believe") we'll soon see a more official detail: Quite probably Comey trapped the Donald, who swallowed the poisoned bait.)

I still dearly remember the DVD Neven gave me with documentary films. One was about Edward L. Bernays, nephew of Sigmund Freud, father of c20th "public relations". Psychology and technology have advanced meanwhile. And now methinks Russia has advanced "information warfare" to a new niveau.

Alas I care only a little bit about human psychology, because I care for planet Earth. Someone else will elaborate one day.

Before I go to bed/nap, the following German poem is my reply to the wörds "conspiracy" and "scepticism". It exhibits a vulnerability I've mainly seen on the left, paradigmatically here, which I bet (but don't "believe") had been exploited by the Russian iWar on the West:

Quote
Christian Morgenstern (1871–1914)
Die unmögliche Tatsache

Palmström, etwas schon an Jahren,
wird an einer Straßenbeuge
und von einem Kraftfahrzeuge
überfahren.

»Wie war« (spricht er, sich erhebend
und entschlossen weiterlebend)
»möglich, wie dies Unglück, ja –:
daß es überhaupt geschah?

Ist die Staatskunst anzuklagen
in bezug auf Kraftfahrwagen?
Gab die Polizeivorschrift
hier dem Fahrer freie Trift?

Oder war vielmehr verboten,
hier Lebendige zu Toten
umzuwandeln, – kurz und schlicht:
Durfte hier der Kutscher nicht –?«

Eingehüllt in feuchte Tücher,
prüft er die Gesetzesbücher
und ist alsobald im klaren:
Wagen durften dort nicht fahren!

Und er kommt zu dem Ergebnis:
»Nur ein Traum war das Erlebnis.
Weil«, so schließt er messerscharf,
»nicht sein kann, was nicht sein darf.«

(lost patience with stupid google. There's an engl. transl. by Max Knight out there:
Quote
For ... that which must not, cannot be.
)
Title: Re: Russiagate
Post by: SteveMDFP on May 18, 2017, 03:56:11 PM
The report doesn't make sense, that Schiller went into Comey's office and simply copied information off the hard drive.  Government computers have encrypted hard drives with 2-factor authorization.  Shiller's a bodyguard, not a computer geek.  He could have opened the computer and pulled out the hard drive, that's possible.  The only other alternative is that he booted the computer with his own (or illegally borrowed) credentials, which leaves an indelible computer trail on servers--but even that wouldn't readily permit access to Comey's files.  Either way, there'd be hard evidence of felony-level crimes immediately apparent.  And the felony could not have happened without conspiracy with others, specifically including Trump.

It's hard to believe Trump *and* Schiller could be this stupid.
OTOH it is not easy to believe that a U.S. public servant's computer should not be accessible by the man who has the Red Button.

Well, sure, for straightforward official business.  He orders the agency's IT department to deliver the computer and the private encryption keys.  But getting the computer's contents surreptitiously is a whole 'nother matter.

I think there's a way this could have happened that makes sense, though it's still stupid.  Schiller opens up the computer, pulls the hard drive, clones it, then replaces it.  Only broken seals would be left as evidence.  But then he only has high-level encrypted data, with no official way to decrypt it.  That would require KGB-level technology, thus hand-off to the Russians in the White House.

The problem is that broken seals would be sufficient evidence alone to prosecute.  And Comey's computer wouldn't likely have many relevant e-mails--those would be on an e-mail server.  Even downloaded files might be on a file server.  Possibly nothing of value would be on his hard drive.

I think Trump and Schiller *are* stupid enough to do this, however.  The Russians would be happy to cooperate, because regardless of any value of the data, they'd hold proof of Trump's impeachable conduct.
Title: Re: Russiagate
Post by: gerontocrat on May 18, 2017, 04:02:29 PM
Everything is a huge hoo-hah about who did what and when and who knew. The reality is that Russia has won, if the mission was to cripple the US Government.

A dysfunctional White House is now a non-functioning White House.
A dysfunctional Congress is now a non-functioning Congress.
With the executive and the legislature out of action, only the judiciary left to dispose of.

However much one might abhor the politics of a Republican Legislature and a Trumpian Presidency, given what is going on in the world it is not good for the USA or its allies to have an ungoverned (ungovernable?) US of A.
Title: Re: Russiagate
Post by: Neven on May 18, 2017, 04:17:34 PM

Because of the nature of the allegations and suspicions, the relevant evidence would be from classified information.  A *named source* would be on an express train to a prison term.  The sort of leaks springing up now can *only* come via un-named sources. 

Any un-named source should be viewed with some skepticism, but not dismissal.  A whole raft of un-named sources, with un-named corroboration, reported by generally reliable media (Washington Post, NYTimes, etc.) should be considered reasonably reliable in overall thrust.

I don't know. I'm just suspicious of everybody. I've seen a lot of BS in the WaPo and NYT as well, and this un-named source thing just opens a portal to so much ideology-driven and ends-justify-means stuff. I mean there are lots of people who want to get rid of Trump asap, at all costs.

I agree about the 'getting rid of' part. I'm not sure whether 'asap' is best strategically, and the costs could be higher than we think.

And I'm still not sure this Russiagate thing might blow up the wrong way. I wish all that fervour, energy and aggression was directed more towards the general problem, rather than to the symptom. All this foreplay is sucking up so much attention that the ejaculation may prove disappointing, making it very difficult to get turned again on in the future.

Quote
I think Trump and Schiller *are* stupid enough to do this, however.  The Russians would be happy to cooperate, because regardless of any value of the data, they'd hold proof of Trump's impeachable conduct.

Every time something seems far-fetched, illogical or contradictory, it is countered with the argument that Trump is actually that stupid. It's just too epistemically closed for me.

Quote
I'm not going to apologize for "Patriotbots"...or whatever that site was that Martin linked.  BUT...like ALL SOURCES...whether direct (via people you know) or through the mainstream media or the "blog media".....like PalmerReport....they ALL should looked at with a SKEPTICAL EYE.

That is the true meaning of skeptic:  Someone who is skeptical of EVERYTHING.   Not just one side or the other.  Just as...I am sure....that you view Jimmy Dore with a skeptical eye. ;)

I absolutely agree with you on this. And I don't take what Jimmy Dore says as gospel truth. I don't see him as a news source, but rather as a commentator and activist. And I happen to like what he says and the way he says it.

Take for instance that Seth Rich thing. I'm just looking into it today and there's some bombshell potential there (if the guy did leak the Podesta stuff to Wikileaks and then got killed...), but here too there's very little hard evidence. There's this PI - that doesn't look reliable to me - on Fox News saying he has a source within the police department yadda yadda yadda.

Almost everything looks like propaganda to me, and I can't think of a way to solve it.
Title: Re: Russiagate
Post by: Buddy on May 18, 2017, 05:12:30 PM
Here is the "likely end" if you want to skip ahead to the "end of the book."  Trump will "pull a Nixon."

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/art-of-the-deal-coauthor-trump-meltdown_us_591d1c53e4b094cdba511035 (http://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/art-of-the-deal-coauthor-trump-meltdown_us_591d1c53e4b094cdba511035)

Donnie will stay in it AS LONG AS HE HAS A REASONABLE CHANCE.  In other words....until the votes are there to impeach him....he will stay in the game.  Once he knows the votes aren't there, like Tricky Dick, he will hit the "eject button"......and claim victory.

We are likely MANY MANY months away from that....maybe over a year.

THE END....
Title: Re: Russiagate
Post by: AbruptSLR on May 18, 2017, 05:22:28 PM
The report doesn't make sense, that Schiller went into Comey's office and simply copied information off the hard drive.  Government computers have encrypted hard drives with 2-factor authorization.  Shiller's a bodyguard, not a computer geek.  He could have opened the computer and pulled out the hard drive, that's possible.  The only other alternative is that he booted the computer with his own (or illegally borrowed) credentials, which leaves an indelible computer trail on servers--but even that wouldn't readily permit access to Comey's files.  Either way, there'd be hard evidence of felony-level crimes immediately apparent.  And the felony could not have happened without conspiracy with others, specifically including Trump.

It's hard to believe Trump *and* Schiller could be this stupid.
OTOH it is not easy to believe that a U.S. public servant's computer should not be accessible by the man who has the Red Button.

From the article Palmer speculates that Comey was setting a trap by instructing his subordinates to give Schiller access to his computer, and Trump has the clearance to decrypt any encoded messages that Schiller might have brought back to the WH:

Extract: "Finally, if Comey was indeed setting a trap for Trump, he would have told his staff to give Trump’s firing messenger access to the computer in question. And it might help explain why the Deputy Attorney General decided to appoint a Special Counsel to take over the investigation today."
Title: Re: Russiagate
Post by: AbruptSLR on May 18, 2017, 05:33:41 PM
And the Palmer Report 'parade of hits' on Russiagate keep coming:

"Michael Flynn appears to be leaking dirt on Donald Trump"

https://www.palmerreport.com/opinion/dirt-flynn-trump/2911/ (https://www.palmerreport.com/opinion/dirt-flynn-trump/2911/)

Extract: "Here’s the leak itself: the New York Times is reporting this evening that Michael Flynn voluntarily informed Donald Trump’s White House that he was under FBI investigation, and Trump decided to appoint Flynn as National Security Adviser anyway (link). Now think about who looks good in this story and who looks bad. Trump and everyone around him look terrible for having allowed a target of an active FBI investigation to take such a sensitive role. But Michael Flynn sure does look good."

See also, Palmer Report's Twitter feed at:

https://twitter.com/PalmerReport?ref_src=twsrc%5Egoogle%7Ctwcamp%5Eserp%7Ctwgr%5Eauthor (https://twitter.com/PalmerReport?ref_src=twsrc%5Egoogle%7Ctwcamp%5Eserp%7Ctwgr%5Eauthor)

Title: Re: Russiagate
Post by: Tor Bejnar on May 18, 2017, 05:59:05 PM
... I don't know. I'm just suspicious of everybody. ...
Yeah, who is this "Neven" guy who shows up everywhere on this forum and the ASIB? ;D

I watch Rachel Maddow and read Fox News (on the internet), then scratch my head and go back to reading about Arctic ice.
Title: Re: Russiagate
Post by: Neven on May 18, 2017, 06:17:44 PM
... I don't know. I'm just suspicious of everybody. ...
Yeah, who is this "Neven" guy who shows up everywhere on this forum and the ASIB? ;D

I don't know, but whatever you do, don't trust anything he says.  ;D

Quote
I watch Rachel Maddow and read Fox News (on the internet), then scratch my head and go back to reading about Arctic ice.

That's a good advice. That's what I'm going to do soon. But I'm glad I took the time to read up a bit on what is happening in the leader of the world, even though it depresses me to no end.

"Michael Flynn appears"

"speculates that Comey"

...sigh...

This stuff feeds on itself.
Title: Re: Russiagate
Post by: AbruptSLR on May 18, 2017, 06:49:55 PM
The linked Palmer Report op/ed article is entitled: "Is Ukraine behind secret recording of Paul Ryan discussing Russia paying Donald Trump?". Will Bob Mueller need to open an investigation on Paul Ryan?

http://www.palmerreport.com/opinion/ukraine-paul-ryan-russia/2919/ (http://www.palmerreport.com/opinion/ukraine-paul-ryan-russia/2919/)

Extract: "Last night an eye popping story appeared in the Washington Post which revealed that Paul Ryan and other Republican leaders had been caught on tape discussing alleged Russian payments to Donald Trump. This audio was recorded nearly a year ago and is just being released now, with Trump’s Russia scandal already in meltdown mode. But what’s most stunning is that the government of Ukraine might have been behind the secret recording."
Title: Re: Russiagate
Post by: AbruptSLR on May 18, 2017, 07:22:49 PM
Also, see the linked Palmer Report opinion piece entitled: "With Donald Trump’s downfall underway, the U.S. intel community may be targeting Paul Ryan too"

http://www.palmerreport.com/opinion/donald-trumps-downfall-underway-u-s-intel-community-may-targeting-paul-ryan/2920/ (http://www.palmerreport.com/opinion/donald-trumps-downfall-underway-u-s-intel-community-may-targeting-paul-ryan/2920/)

Extract: "So what we’re now witnessing may be the beginning of the intel community’s effort to put enough evidence out there to get the American public to realize that Paul Ryan is going down along with Trump and Pence. As I’ve previously pointed out, that doesn’t automatically mean that fourth in line Orrin Hatch would become President (link). When Spiro Agnew and Richard Nixon went down in rapid fashion, we saw Congress work it out so a bipartisan consensus pick like Gerald Ford could be elevated to the Presidency, thus making the order of succession irrelevant. But it sure does look like the intel community is trying to inform us that Paul Ryan may no longer even be in the line of succession when it’s all said and done."
Title: Re: Russiagate
Post by: AbruptSLR on May 18, 2017, 08:05:44 PM
The linked CNN article is entitled: "Now it's up to the special counsel", and it points out (among other things) that the WH staffers now face the likely prospect of being examined by Mueller:

http://www.cnn.com/2017/05/18/politics/donald-trump-robert-mueller-democracy/index.html (http://www.cnn.com/2017/05/18/politics/donald-trump-robert-mueller-democracy/index.html)

Extract: "Staffers now face the prospect that they will be examined by Mueller's probe and will worry about their own potential legal jeopardy, and must cope with the corrosive reality of working in an administration that will now be under a dark cloud of investigation and uncertainty for months or even years to come.

It seems unlikely, for instance, that Comey will now testify in public in what would have been one of the most significant congressional hearings in recent times. There is also no guarantee that if he does not decide to recommend criminal prosecutions, Mueller will feel the need to release a report into his investigation. That is one reason why Democrats will continue to press the case for sweeping congressional probes."
Title: Re: Russiagate
Post by: gerontocrat on May 18, 2017, 08:25:55 PM
So while all this crap is going on, who is looking after the shop?
Title: Re: Russiagate
Post by: AbruptSLR on May 18, 2017, 08:39:15 PM
So while all this crap is going on, who is looking after the shop?
Putin
Title: Re: Russiagate
Post by: Martin Gisser on May 18, 2017, 08:42:17 PM
Take for instance that Seth Rich thing. I'm just looking into it today and there's some bombshell potential there (if the guy did leak the Podesta stuff to Wikileaks and then got killed...), but here too there's very little hard evidence. There's this PI - that doesn't look reliable to me - on Fox News saying he has a source within the police department yadda yadda yadda.

Almost everything looks like propaganda to me, and I can't think of a way to solve it.
Don't waste your time. It is a Faux News red herring with an utterly ridiculous source. See my response to your previous question on this. 
Title: Re: Russiagate
Post by: wili on May 18, 2017, 10:00:25 PM
Yeah, I'm not sure why any thinking person would ever spend any time on Fox, unless maybe for a kind of sick entertainment, or to take a peak at the sheer madness.

For 'news,' it has been shown to be worse than worthless...people who watch it have a less clear idea of facts in the world than people who watch no news at all, iirc.
Title: Re: Russiagate
Post by: Neven on May 18, 2017, 10:15:52 PM
Almost everything looks like propaganda to me, and I can't think of a way to solve it.
Don't waste your time. It is a Faux News red herring with an utterly ridiculous source. See my response to your previous question on this.[/quote]

FWIW, Jimmy Dore also says that there is no evidence, even though there are some strange things wrt this case (nothing stolen, Wikileaks offering a reward). As I thought, that private investigator is totally unreliable, retracting what he had said earlier about there being evidence that Seth Rich had been in contact with Wikileaks.

But there's one more thing you said that I want to reply to:

Quote
I still dearly remember the DVD Neven gave me with documentary films. One was about Edward L. Bernays, nephew of Sigmund Freud, father of c20th "public relations". Psychology and technology have advanced meanwhile. And now methinks Russia has advanced "information warfare" to a new niveau.

Ha, I had forgotten I had given you that DVD! That Century of the Self is one hell of a documentary series that totally blew my mind 10 years ago.

But what it shows, is how corporations and elites have refined these techniques to make people buy the stuff they want to sell them. Not necessarily nations or nation states, just groups with vested interests. When push comes to shove, these groups do not care about the nations or nation states they may reside in. Call them Oligarchs Sans Frontières, if you like.

If you want to rail against Trump, fine, but be careful not to couch it in language - like the mainstream media does relentlessly and irresponsibly - that takes us back to this Cold War mind set. Or worse, real warfare.

The 'Russian' oligarchs haven't advanced 'information warfare' to a new level. It's not like we now suddenly are being f**ed. This has been going on for a long time. And that 'USA not USSR' meme will not stop it. It only makes it worse.

Of course, earlier on this thread, others have said that 'Russiagate' is really the wrong name to use. As so often with this kind of labelling (death tax, Obamacare, Axis of Evil), it's to instil fear in people, make them afraid of some invisible enemy. So that they don't think or actively engage in positive change.

This isn't about Russia. This is about people of good will against bad people. And we need to get the bad people out, on all sides, if we want to have a chance at solving anything.

Title: Re: Russiagate
Post by: AbruptSLR on May 18, 2017, 10:26:27 PM
The linked Slate article is entitled: "A Special Enemy".  Trump's combative style has kept most of his opponents off-balance; however, this article makes it clear that Trump's style likely will play into Mueller's hands (& I note that Comey is a friend of Mueller's).

http://www.slate.com/articles/news_and_politics/politics/2017/05/special_counsel_robert_mueller_was_born_and_bred_to_torment_donald_trump.html (http://www.slate.com/articles/news_and_politics/politics/2017/05/special_counsel_robert_mueller_was_born_and_bred_to_torment_donald_trump.html)

Extract: "Former FBI Director Robert Mueller was born and bred to torment Donald Trump.

Even if Mueller’s investigation doesn’t result in any charges being brought, it’s almost certain Mueller and his team will end up asking Trump questions he doesn’t want to answer and demanding to see documents he doesn’t want to provide. Barring a drastic change in Trump’s disposition, the president will respond to these affronts by publishing angry tweets about Mueller and snarling about him in interviews. Maybe he’ll even compare him to a “dog,” as he did recently when talking about former Acting Attorney General Sally Yates. Or perhaps he could threaten Mueller, as he did last week in a tweet directed at former FBI Director James Comey.

While Trump loathes a lot of people, his hatred of Mueller is likely to be particularly intense. That’s because Mueller is exactly the kind of guy Trump always hates. He’s also exactly the kind of law enforcement official Trump doesn’t understand.

If and when Trump does go after Mueller—he dipped his toe in the water Thursday morning by tweeting about how it was unfair that a special counsel had been appointed to conduct the “witch hunt” against him—their showdown will be marked by a pleasing irony. In one corner will be the patrician and brainy Mueller, who has little in common with the “real cops” the president so admires. In the other will be Trump, who will soon find out what being ”tough on crime” really means."
Title: Re: Russiagate
Post by: AbruptSLR on May 19, 2017, 12:16:57 AM
The linked article is entitled: "Lieberman emerges as front-runner for FBI post".  It will be interesting to see whether Joe gets the nod.

http://www.politico.com/story/2017/05/18/joe-lieberman-fbi-frontrunner-238563 (http://www.politico.com/story/2017/05/18/joe-lieberman-fbi-frontrunner-238563)
Title: Re: Russiagate
Post by: TerryM on May 19, 2017, 01:52:11 AM
Mueller's appointment boils Trump's presidency down to a singularity. Did he do it, or did he not.


Trump's promises and actions against climate change agreements no longer matter.
Trump's appointments, except those somehow linked to Russia no longer matter.
Trump's xenophobia and misogynistic leanings are no longer issues.
Will Mexico pay for the Wall? who cares.
How can you worry about Trump getting your job back. That's not important.


If Trump is discovered to have fixed the election with Putin's aid - he's history.
If Trump and Putin are innocent, it's 8 years, then his choice for the next 4.


Ken Starr knew Clinton was guilty, of something. Monica's dirty dress proved more important than land swaps or any of the other crimes that Starr had imagined. After years of investigation the impeachment was held. Clinton was exonerated. Single payer was forgotten, Yugoslavia was no more. Eight years reduced to a stain on a plus size gown, sad.


Terry

Title: Re: Russiagate
Post by: Jim Pettit on May 19, 2017, 05:00:09 PM
In a simplisitc, back-and-white world, certainly Democrats would have but two choices:

A) See how deeply Trump worked with a hostile foreign state to subvert our democracy, and just let everything else go to hell; or...

B) Focus solely on internal problems, and surrender our democracy to Americans who invite hostile outsiders to influence the electorate, keeping our fingers crossed that those hostile outsiders will change their minds next time and let free elections take place so progressives can attain and retain positions of power so we can deal with those issues.

Fortunately, the world is neither so simplistic nor so black-and-white. There are at this moment tens of millions of smart people fully capable of simultaneously walking and chewing gum; these people know that we can both investigate Trump's aiding and abetting of Putin AND work on the dozens of issues facing Americans today. We can look into whether and how deeply Flynn's and Manafort's criminal actions extend into the White House AND show Americans that liberals (and not conservatives) have given America most of those things it cherishes most.

Those consuming only right wing media--or at least living on a diet consisting primarily of it--can be easily misled into thinking there's nothing to see, no "there" there; Fox barely mentions Russia, and conservative talk radio is working overtime trying to fool its listeners into thinking this is all a witch hunt and an effort to delegitimize Trump. But this isn't nothing. Far from it. And if the steadily increasing drip-drip-DRIP of denial and obfuscation from Washington doesn't illustrate that, the multiple grand juries looking into things certainly should.

On another note: there is absolutely no way that Trump gets eight years out of this. People with favorability ratings in the 30s simply don't get re-elected. In fact, people with ratings in the 30s are prone to getting primaried. And Trump has absolutely NOTHING up his sleeve that will reverse those terrible numbers. The emperor has no clothes--and very few are afraid to tell him that.
Title: Re: Russiagate
Post by: AbruptSLR on May 19, 2017, 05:58:25 PM
The linked article is entitled: "Rosenstein Briefing Suggests Russia Probe Now Criminal".  Thus as the DOJ considers Russiagate to be a criminal investigation, most evidence in this matter cannot be made public without allowing those who may be guilty to escape without consequences.

https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/politics/rosenstein-briefing-suggests-russia-probe-now-criminal/ar-BBBhvam (https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/politics/rosenstein-briefing-suggests-russia-probe-now-criminal/ar-BBBhvam)

Extract: "… Rosenstein's remarks to lawmakers suggested that what had been a "counterintelligence investigation" was now morphing into a criminal one, one senator said afterward."
Title: Re: Russiagate
Post by: AbruptSLR on May 19, 2017, 06:08:51 PM
The linked article is entitled: "House Republicans are worried more taped conversations will leak".

http://www.salon.com/2017/05/19/house-republicans-are-worried-more-taped-conversations-will-leak/ (http://www.salon.com/2017/05/19/house-republicans-are-worried-more-taped-conversations-will-leak/)

Extract: "A new report indicates that House Republican leaders are worried more secretly recorded conversations will leak to the press.

On Wednesday descriptions of a taped conversation among House Republican leaders after meeting with Ukrainian Prime Minister Volodymyr Groysman leaked, due to reporting by The Washington Post. The most notable moment from the conversation was when House Majority Leader Kevin McCarthy of California joked that “there’s two people I think Putin pays: [GOP Rep. Dana] Rohrabacher and Trump.” As people laughed at his comment, McCarthy emphasized “Swear to God!”

House Speaker Paul Ryan can then be heard ending the conversation and forcing the Republicans who heard McCarthy’s remark to swear to their secrecy. “No leaks. This is how we know we’re a real family here,” Ryan told the Republicans."
Title: Re: Russiagate
Post by: TerryM on May 19, 2017, 07:29:50 PM
Ukrainian politicians & Republicans are a natural fit. It's when Corporate Democrats start seeing things the same way as Poroshenko sees things that I worry.


For Neven:


http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2017-05-19/seth-richs-reddit-account-discovered-loved-pandas-patriotic-clothes-and-joe-rogan (http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2017-05-19/seth-richs-reddit-account-discovered-loved-pandas-patriotic-clothes-and-joe-rogan)


Apparently two of Seth's reddit accounts have been uncovered. No smoking guns, but fresh data to sort.


Terry
Title: Re: Russiagate
Post by: Jim Pettit on May 19, 2017, 07:50:48 PM
Fox News is all-in on the Seth Rich nonsense.

So are the Russians.

So are silly, debunked, I-wish-to-hell-they'd-just-go-away conspiracy sites--Breitbart, Drudge, ZeroHedge, etc.

Meanwhile, there's a dead son, a murdered brother, brokenhearted friends, a grieving family--and a bunch of desperate folks politicizing his death to get the spotlight off of TrumpCo's treason.

Despicable. Disgusting. But par for the course.
Title: Re: Russiagate
Post by: Jim Pettit on May 19, 2017, 09:30:15 PM
In today's news:

1) Trump tells Russians that firing "nut job" Comey relieved him of the pressure he felt from being probed. (http://www.thedailybeast.com/cheats/2017/05/19/trump-to-russia-firing-nut-job-comey-eased-probe-pressure?via=desktop&source=copyurl)

2) The Russian probe has reached a current WH official. (https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/national-security/russia-probe-reaches-current-white-house-official-people-familiar-with-the-case-say/2017/05/19/7685adba-3c99-11e7-9e48-c4f199710b69_story.html?utm_term=.67e405abdc28)

Drip, drip, drip...
Title: Re: Russiagate
Post by: Buddy on May 19, 2017, 09:31:00 PM
Quote
Fox News is all-in on the Seth Rich nonsense.

So are the Russians.

So are silly, debunked, I-wish-to-hell-they'd-just-go-away conspiracy sites--Breitbart, Drudge,

FOX, Trump, Brietbart, etc....ARE ALL IN.  Anyone who thinks that Donnie will go away quietly.....is kidding themselves.

He will do WHATEVER he can....with whatever means he has.  And he will do so working with Sean and others in the "alt right" media.

I give Mueller 3 months AT MOST before Donnie cans him.  Mueller won't mess around.....and before 3 months are gone he will get too close.  If Donnie thinks he can sway enough support using the alt right media....he will ABSOLUTELY DO SO.   All Donnie has to do is make sure there aren't 2/3 of Senators that will vote for impeachment (prior to that....a majority of the US House has to bring the impeachment charges up.....which will require about 10% of Republicans in the House to vote for them).

And he will be getting help from Ryan and McConnell and others.  There will be some very serious shit going down before this is over.....

This is a WAR that will be fought on the airwaves....and the internet.....to keep Donnies poll numbers from taking FURTHER....and to keep Congressional Republicans from bailing.  Donnie knows if his poll numbers tank further.....Republicans will save THEIR OWN ASS BEFORE HIS.

Title: Re: Russiagate
Post by: TerryM on May 19, 2017, 09:32:32 PM
Fox News is all-in on the Seth Rich nonsense.

So are the Russians.

So are silly, debunked, I-wish-to-hell-they'd-just-go-away conspiracy sites--Breitbart, Drudge, ZeroHedge, etc.

Meanwhile, there's a dead son, a murdered brother, brokenhearted friends, a grieving family--and a bunch of desperate folks politicizing his death to get the spotlight off of TrumpCo's treason.

Despicable. Disgusting. But par for the course.


So we shouldn't be reading any of the myriad emails he left behind. RIP, with an emphasis on R.?


Any idea why Assange gave $20K for information leading to his murderer?
Had Assange done so before, has he done so since?
Why would Assange even be aware of his passing - he was in the UK & I'm not sure Seth's murder had made national news at that time.


Probably a right wing plot to take the heat off the Russians, except the data hadn't even been dumped at that point so there was no heat on the Russians?


So many questions - and now a call to stop any investigations, because he's a dead son, his heartbroken friends, his grieving family.
Your empathy is touching. - if not entirely convincing.


Despicable, Disgusting, Damnable (alliterations work in better in triplicate), but par for the course.
 (why the golfing aphorism - such an elitist game) Try "another day at the office", for the white collar crowd, "another day at the track", for the sportsmen. or "a walk in the park" for the loitering kind.


I have no idea who feeds Wikileaks it's data. The US Justice Department seems to believe it's disgusted insiders - see Chelsea Manning as an example - also an example of someone whose treatment IMO has been Despicable, Disgusting, & Damnable.


It's possible of course that Russia, China, North Korea or perhaps the Armenians, Greeks and Assyrians whose causes Seth championed might have fed the DNC files to Assange, although Assange denies this.


Better to damn the messenger than investigate the message. Better to bury his writings with his corpse. Wikileaks has such a long history of just making things up that we can't take Assuage at his word for anything.
Terry
Title: Re: Russiagate
Post by: TerryM on May 19, 2017, 09:37:59 PM
Buddy
A few quick questions:


1) How many presidential impeachments in all of America's history?


2) How many succeeded?


Terry
Title: Re: Russiagate
Post by: Buddy on May 19, 2017, 09:40:33 PM
3

1
Title: Re: Russiagate
Post by: Buddy on May 19, 2017, 10:06:50 PM
The "alt right press" now includes people like Hugh Hewitt in my mind.  I put him in the same boat or worse than Sean Hannity.  He is nothing more than a shill for the alt right.

Quote
Friday morning, Ryan told conservative radio host Hugh Hewitt that the recording was “a cause of concern” for him and other Republicans.
http://www.politico.com/story/2017/05/19/paul-ryan-reacts-kevin-mccarthy-recording-238602 (http://www.politico.com/story/2017/05/19/paul-ryan-reacts-kevin-mccarthy-recording-238602)

It make me so comforted ;).....that the Republicans aren't worried about THE SUBJECT MATTER....they are worried ABOUT WHO LEAKED THE SUBJECT MATTER.

That is like someone saying:

"I'm most concerned about who LEAKED the name of the rapist...not so worried that a rape existed."
Title: Re: Russiagate
Post by: TerryM on May 19, 2017, 10:14:30 PM
2


0


Andrew Jackson and Bill Clinton were both acquitted on all charges.
Tricky Dick resigned before either the house or the senate began deliberations.


Buddy, to some of us Nixon's reign was not part of a history lesson. We watched it real time.


Re-writing history only works when those that saw it unfold have died. WWI is probably safe as of now. - Give the Nixon period a few more decades.


Terry
Title: Re: Russiagate
Post by: Buddy on May 19, 2017, 10:18:09 PM
Quote
Tricky Dick resigned before either the house or the senate began deliberations.

I know that.  But thanks for the history lesson.  I was including Tricky Dicky because he knew he didn't have the votes.  The only reason he resigned.

And....as I have said....the only reason that Donnie will resign, is if he doesn't have the votes. ;)
Title: Re: Russiagate
Post by: Buddy on May 19, 2017, 10:31:20 PM
Over the coming weeks and months....on MANY WEBSITES....you will see a concerted effort by those in the "alt right" to DOWNPLAY RUSSIAGATE.....and ENCOURAGE FRIEDLINESS TOWARDS THE RUSSIANS.

I have no doubt that you may even see them on this website.  They  know....that this "game" is being played out in the press....on the internet.....and in the minds of the public.  So they will do anything....and pay ANYONE....to help them.

Just need to be aware of those folks who are friendly to the Russians.   Their fondness towards the Russians and Putin in particular......may have a VERY DARK UNDERSIDE.

Title: Re: Russiagate
Post by: AbruptSLR on May 19, 2017, 10:33:07 PM

Andrew Jackson and Bill Clinton were both acquitted on all charges.

That would be Andrew Johnson, not Andrew Jackson:

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/0/presidential-impeachment-usa-often-has-happened/ (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/0/presidential-impeachment-usa-often-has-happened/)
Title: Re: Russiagate
Post by: mati on May 19, 2017, 10:59:30 PM
Dan Rather Live:

ALERT: Dan Rather will be live here on the News and Guts Facebook page to answer your questions at 5pm et. There is so much news today with the New York Times and Washington Post both breaking big stories. Please send in your questions now and we'll see you at 5!

https://www.facebook.com/newsandguts/?hc_ref=NEWSFEED&fref=nf (https://www.facebook.com/newsandguts/?hc_ref=NEWSFEED&fref=nf)

Title: Re: Russiagate
Post by: TerryM on May 19, 2017, 11:00:55 PM
So far in their history the US has impeached two presidents. Both were acquitted on all charges.


If this simple fact doesn't give you pause, it should.


Trump is a deeply flawed man.
Trump's presidency is a deeply flawed presidency.


If Trump is impeached you are asking a Supermajority of Congresscritters and a Supermajority of Senatorial Types to convict him of deeds that they may themselves have been party to.
Are you sure that your congressman never had business dealings with a Russian bank?
Never made a deal with a Russian Business, or was paid for commenting on Russian Media?


How about your State Senators. Did they attend Sochi, did they pay their way there, were they interviewed on RT? Who funded their last outing to Central America, their last ski trip to Norway or their wife, or mistresses last shopping spree in London?


All these things could be brought out in a trial. Bill got off when Larry Flynn offered a million to anyone who could prove they'd had sex with a Senator. The Senators folded like a cheap towel.


Why will this one be different? Are your Senators above reproach? Is Hillary happy to have her Russian and Ukrainian contributions thumbed through? Does your Congressman stand behind all his business dealings?
Easier to stand down and let the dust settle before your own suit gets soiled.


Why not attack Trump for the things we know he's done.
He's pulling the plug on the only healthcare plan you have.
He appointed Pruitt to run the EPA.
He thinks global warming is a Chinese plot.


Once Trump beats the Russiagate charges he's home free. You tried to bring him down and you failed.
If you come at the King, you best not miss. - So for gods sake, Come at the King with facts that are evident, facts that are proven, & facts that can bring him down.


I hate the prick too
Terry
Title: Re: Russiagate
Post by: TerryM on May 19, 2017, 11:02:35 PM

Andrew Jackson and Bill Clinton were both acquitted on all charges.

That would be Andrew Johnson, not Andrew Jackson:

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/0/presidential-impeachment-usa-often-has-happened/ (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/0/presidential-impeachment-usa-often-has-happened/)


OOPS - Well they should have impeached Jackson, he was a SOAB!!
Title: Re: Russiagate
Post by: Neven on May 19, 2017, 11:04:42 PM
Fox News is all-in on the Seth Rich nonsense.

So are the Russians.

So are silly, debunked, I-wish-to-hell-they'd-just-go-away conspiracy sites--Breitbart, Drudge, ZeroHedge, etc.

Meanwhile, there's a dead son, a murdered brother, brokenhearted friends, a grieving family--and a bunch of desperate folks politicizing his death to get the spotlight off of TrumpCo's treason.

Despicable. Disgusting. But par for the course.

I agree. I can only speak for myself and that is that I'm not interested in that for political reasons, as I'm against Trump, the Republicans, the Corporate Democrats, Putin, etc. I sincerely hope that Seth Rich didn't leak the DNC mails to Wikileaks, because if he did and it gets known, things will get very, very messy. I'm also surprised that there is no attention for this from mainstream media whatsoever, and I don't mean the latest BS from Fox and that silly attention-craving private investigator, but I mean, the story in general. Although surprised isn't the right word.

That's my biggest fear with this all-out war on Trump and 'Russia'. That it takes too long and backfires.

In a simplisitc, back-and-white world, certainly Democrats would have but two choices:

A) See how deeply Trump worked with a hostile foreign state to subvert our democracy, and just let everything else go to hell; or...

B) Focus solely on internal problems, and surrender our democracy to Americans who invite hostile outsiders to influence the electorate, keeping our fingers crossed that those hostile outsiders will change their minds next time and let free elections take place so progressives can attain and retain positions of power so we can deal with those issues.

I don't know about the foreign hostile state, but Trump is definitely in bed with Russian oligarch money. Like most American politicians are in one way or another. There still is very little hard evidence - at least shared with us, the people - about that meddling in the elections.

If it is so easy to sway the American elections, and you believe that, you also believe that the American people is stupid. And if the American people is that stupid apparently you can only sway their minds by employing the same tactics, right? That's a cul-de-sac. That won't solve anything and more importantly, you're not winning anyone over this way, except liberal know-it-alls.

There is so much bloodthirsty intensity in all this that I fear that to a lot of people this will look like a subversion of democracy and Trump is the victim. That's how it would look to me, if I didn't know any better. But you need those people on your side if you really want to change things! A lot of those people aren't evil or dumb, they're desperate!

Quote
Fortunately, the world is neither so simplistic nor so black-and-white. There are at this moment tens of millions of smart people fully capable of simultaneously walking and chewing gum; these people know that we can both investigate Trump's aiding and abetting of Putin AND work on the dozens of issues facing Americans today. We can look into whether and how deeply Flynn's and Manafort's criminal actions extend into the White House AND show Americans that liberals (and not conservatives) have given America most of those things it cherishes most.

But, Jim, almost all the attention goes out to this Trump-Russia-thing. To me and my limited perspective here in Europe with almost only the ASIF and Youtube as my resources, it looks as if this is all-consuming, feeding on itself, especially on Democrat websites. I've checked a few in the past few days and all they're about is Trump-Russia-Trump-Russia-Trump-Russia.

Where is the attention to all that stuff that is going to be needed to sway enough American people so that real change can come about? Does that only come into play after Trump is gone? What if it takes months and months, or even up to the next presidential election? Is there any strategy to this? Why not let Trump and the GOP f**k up some more together so that they get wiped out in the next elections, and focus all the energy on breaking the hold of Corporatist politicians on the Democratic Party? The primary reason that Trump is president, is because of the massive mistake of letting Clinton run and the way her campaign was run. The Democrats need to own that mistake and learn from it, instead of going on a witch-hunt, rightly or not.

The election simply hasn't stopped, and it won't be over until everyone has chosen the lesser evil. But it's really important there is a third choice before people get to choose again. And that's why it's so important to get priorities straightened out.

You say both can be done at the same time, but to me it looks like one thing needs to be done first and then the other can be done.  I think that's a strategic mistake. Get your own house in order while the other house destroys itself. Because it will.

Quote
Those consuming only right wing media--or at least living on a diet consisting primarily of it--can be easily misled into thinking there's nothing to see, no "there" there; Fox barely mentions Russia, and conservative talk radio is working overtime trying to fool its listeners into thinking this is all a witch hunt and an effort to delegitimize Trump. But this isn't nothing. Far from it. And if the steadily increasing drip-drip-DRIP of denial and obfuscation from Washington doesn't illustrate that, the multiple grand juries looking into things certainly should.

I agree with you, but a lot of what I see from the rest of mainstream media, isn't all that better. It seems everyone has an agenda, and we ain't in it. It's all about pushing ratings and ideologies.

Quote
On another note: there is absolutely no way that Trump gets eight years out of this. People with favorability ratings in the 30s simply don't get re-elected. In fact, people with ratings in the 30s are prone to getting primaried. And Trump has absolutely NOTHING up his sleeve that will reverse those terrible numbers. The emperor has no clothes--and very few are afraid to tell him that.

I hope you're right, and I hope this isn't done in a way that lets the GOP nutters get at the helm.

What a mess...

And what Terry says.
Title: Re: Russiagate
Post by: ritter on May 19, 2017, 11:32:20 PM
All these things could be brought out in a trial. Bill got off when Larry Flynn offered a million to anyone who could prove they'd had sex with a Senator. The Senators folded like a cheap towel.


Why will this one be different? Are your Senators above reproach? Is Hillary happy to have her Russian and Ukrainian contributions thumbed through? Does your Congressman stand behind all his business dealings?


Terry,

Great post. I for one would love some light shined in the dark corners, Hillary's included. I don't believe impeachment will work but I'd like some honest disclosures and the only way that will occur is with an investigation (I've half a mind that both parties were involved with Russia). We've all got dirty secrets but some are damaging well away from the self.

Normally, I'd say there are much better uses of time but anything that derails 45's agenda may be of benefit. At least the potential crime is of grander scale than lying about extramarital fellatio!
Title: Re: Russiagate
Post by: Neven on May 19, 2017, 11:35:05 PM
Before going to bed, I also wanted to add that I really like and respect all of you. Please, don't think ill of me or reproach me that I'm trying to steer your POV and re-direct your energy. I know that in the end we all want the same.
Title: Re: Russiagate
Post by: AbruptSLR on May 20, 2017, 12:22:19 AM
In today's news:

1) Trump tells Russians that firing "nut job" Comey relieved him of the pressure he felt from being probed. (http://www.thedailybeast.com/cheats/2017/05/19/trump-to-russia-firing-nut-job-comey-eased-probe-pressure?via=desktop&source=copyurl)


Further to your post, the linked article is entitled: “Trump: Firing 'nut job' FBI chief 'eased pressure”.  It seems to me that the Congressional GOP leadership needs to grow a spine, can call this obstruction of justice.


http://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-39983257 (http://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-39983257)


Extract: “Donald Trump reportedly told his Russian guests that firing Mr Comey had relieved the "great pressure" his administration was under because of the Russia investigation.”
Title: Re: Russiagate
Post by: mati on May 20, 2017, 12:46:01 AM
hmm
so this is no longer an ice state and global warming blog.
sorry, but i think i'll take a holiday from the histeronics.
mati
Title: Re: Russiagate
Post by: Martin Gisser on May 20, 2017, 01:40:47 AM
I sincerely hope that Seth Rich didn't leak the DNC mails to Wikileaks, because if he did and it gets known, things will get very, very messy.
His shooting is the only messy detail in the picture. If it had something to do with the leaks, we would be in spy novel land. But it seems maximum unlikely to me, given the shape of the whole mess:

There is nothing whatsoever known about who shot him. It is the only isolated piece in the puzzle. He died in an area known for robbery and violence. He was reported as being very patriotic, plus the leaks turned out an almost total nothingburger. Maybe he was blackmailed, but about that we would plausiblo almost certainly have heard already (given all the other leaks and stuff dug out meanwhile).  I would find it more plausible "the Russians" shot him to lay out a red herring (but then they should have layed out some additional track).

No news since last year.

Therefore it is a waste of time and neurons to speculate any further about this puzzle piece. (Except you work for Fox News etc.)
Title: Re: Russiagate
Post by: TerryM on May 20, 2017, 01:46:35 AM
In today's news:

1) Trump tells Russians that firing "nut job" Comey relieved him of the pressure he felt from being probed. (http://www.thedailybeast.com/cheats/2017/05/19/trump-to-russia-firing-nut-job-comey-eased-probe-pressure?via=desktop&source=copyurl)

2) The Russian probe has reached a current WH official. (https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/national-security/russia-probe-reaches-current-white-house-official-people-familiar-with-the-case-say/2017/05/19/7685adba-3c99-11e7-9e48-c4f199710b69_story.html?utm_term=.67e405abdc28)

Drip, drip, drip...


Jesus
Whoever it is that is listening in on conversations between the Trumpster and his Evil Russian guest should watch his back side.
I understand that just today a space opened up where they keep whistleblowers under detention!!
Terry

Title: Re: Russiagate
Post by: AbruptSLR on May 20, 2017, 02:00:50 AM
Here are words from the DOJ on whether Trump's actions could be taken as obstruction of justice:

http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2017/05/19/trump-officials-he-looks-more-and-more-like-a-complete-moron (http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2017/05/19/trump-officials-he-looks-more-and-more-like-a-complete-moron)

Extract: "Asked whether those comments could be construed as intent to interfere in the FBI’s investigation, a Justice Department official told The Daily Beast, “absolutely.”"
Title: Re: Russiagate
Post by: TerryM on May 20, 2017, 02:15:40 AM
I sincerely hope that Seth Rich didn't leak the DNC mails to Wikileaks, because if he did and it gets known, things will get very, very messy.
His shooting is the only messy detail in the picture. If it had something to do with the leaks, we would be in spy novel land. But it seems maximum unlikely to me, given the shape of the whole mess:

There is nothing whatsoever known about who shot him. It is the only isolated piece in the puzzle. He died in an area known for robbery and violence. He was reported as being very patriotic, plus the leaks turned out an almost total nothingburger. Maybe he was blackmailed, but about that we would plausiblo almost certainly have heard already (given all the other leaks and stuff dug out meanwhile).  I would find it more plausible "the Russians" shot him to lay out a red herring (but then they should have layed out some additional track).

No news since last year.

Therefore it is a waste of time and neurons to speculate any further about this puzzle piece. (Except you work for Fox News etc.)


Confess to being a neophyte on the subject but isn't the reddit connection new? I certainly wasn't aware of his feelings re. the supposed Turkish genocide.
I see him in a more nuanced light now. The extreme patriotism is only one part of the picture. Possibly a thorough reading his posts will give a clearer picture of who he was.
The reddit community blew my mind when they correctly solved the Westworld Series months before it was revealed.
I'll check back to see what they've uncovered.


Re. The leaks being a nothingburger - aren't these the leaks that Putin is accused of feeding to Wikileaks, the very ones that brought Hillary down?
Isn't this the basis for the whole impeach Trump brouhaha?


I personally am in full agreement that there is nothing there, but if it's what caused the Democrats to lose, (according to the Democrats), then it's hardly a nothingburger.


Terry
Title: Re: Russiagate
Post by: AbruptSLR on May 20, 2017, 03:56:21 AM
Apparently, having Mueller on the job will not prevent Comey from testifying in public before the Senate Intelligence Committee:

http://www.salon.com/2017/05/19/james-comey-to-testify-in-public-session/ (http://www.salon.com/2017/05/19/james-comey-to-testify-in-public-session/)

Extract: "Comey’s planned appearance in an open session of the Senate Intel Committee ensures his testimony will be public.
...
The joint press release issued by Senators Burr and Warner stated that the open hearing would be scheduled “after Memorial Day.”"
Title: Re: Russiagate
Post by: Buddy on May 20, 2017, 01:48:04 PM
1)  There was NEVER any "choice" of going after Donnie on RussiaGate or not. HE IS IN RUSSIA'S BACK POCKET.  THEY FINANCE HIM.  WITHOUT RUSSIA....HE IS DEAD MEAT.

2)  If you DON'T go after him on RussiaGate....he is just going to "mow you over."  He is a bully.  He doesn't care if you lay down.

3)   Donnie's idea of a perfect presidency....is one like Russia:  Where it really ISN'T a democracy.....where journalists can be jailed at will......and where the president decides who makes big money and who doesn't.....and where you have one network:  TASS FOX

So there was NEVER any REAL choice about going after Donnie or not (unless you wanted to get mowed over).  He broke the law...and you go after him.

 
Title: Re: Russiagate
Post by: Neven on May 20, 2017, 02:33:21 PM
1)  There was NEVER any "choice" of going after Donnie on RussiaGate or not. HE IS IN RUSSIA'S BACK POCKET.  THEY FINANCE HIM.  WITHOUT RUSSIA....HE IS DEAD MEAT.

Again, you say Russia. But what you mean is Oligarchs Sans Frontières. And I also thought that Trump was financed by Mercer, when the latter saw that psycho Ted Cruz was destroyed by Trump. But Mercer has probably been doing business with Russian billionaires as well (every mega-rich person can be tied to another mega-rich person) and so he can undoubtedly be fit into the GlennBeckian charts as well. 

I've just read that the Saudis like Donnie. If they hadn't liked him, he'd already been gone by now, as we all know how big Saudi and Israeli influence on US politics are. Talking about collusion. But they are not the enemy, of course, given how much weaponry they buy from American firms. They are friends.

Quote
2)  If you DON'T go after him on RussiaGate....he is just going to "mow you over."  He is a bully.  He doesn't care if you lay down.

I totally agree that this is one of the things that you can hurt Trump with, almost as much as all those policies he's implementing that go right against his promises, the way he's trying to make the rich even richer, killing people by depriving them of health care, and continuing the illegal wars.

But the way the Democrats, some Republicans and the mainstream media seem to go about this, is an all-out attack, or perhaps I should say all-or-nothing. There is hardly any attention for other stuff. Everything boils down to how horrible a person Donald Trump is, and a lot of people are not swayed by it. It makes them even more convinced that the establishment elite are trying to liquidate outsider Donnie.

That's what makes the overt push for impeachment/imprisonment so dangerous, politically speaking. If it doesn't happen, or takes too long, the tables might turn. And then what? Then you can't even sway people with a good and honest platform anymore. Then it will be your Reichstag fire.

Quote
3)   Donnie's idea of a perfect presidency....is one like Russia:  Where it really ISN'T a democracy.....where journalists can be jailed at will......and where the president decides who makes big money and who doesn't.....and where you have one network:  TASS FOX

Yeah, well, it was already a lot like that. I've watched enough documentaries about American culture, politics and economics in the past decade to know that democracy and freedom are very relative terms in the US. And all American media outlets, in the end, are owned by a handful of people. CNN, MSNBC and CBS, what I've seen of them, aren't that much different from Fox. They all have to stay on message or they don't get paid (handsomely).

Quote
So there was NEVER any REAL choice about going after Donnie or not (unless you wanted to get mowed over).  He broke the law...and you go after him.

You can also destroy him and the GOP during the next elections by attacking them on how they are totally failing at governing because all their lies and propaganda were totally unpragmatic to begin with, and offering a platform that offers the things that most Americans really care about: universal healthcare, free college, renewable energy, getting the troops back home, breaking up the banks, getting Wall Street under control.

And let it be offered by people that are willing to stand up for these ideas and that are trustworthy and transparent, not the Republican-Light that the Democratic Party has been turned into by corporate whores. I mean, there's a reason Bernie Sanders is currently the most popular politician in the US by far. America needs more of those.
Title: Re: Russiagate
Post by: AbruptSLR on May 20, 2017, 05:55:17 PM
The linked article is entitled: “Impeachment: it’s political”.  It indicates that unless the FBI can produce clear & convincing evidence of major wrong doing on Trump's part, he is bulletproof from impeachment, because impeachment is a political process.  Hopefully, the FBI can at least get Trump on obstruction of justice charges.


http://www.salon.com/2017/05/20/impeachment-it-is-political_partner/ (http://www.salon.com/2017/05/20/impeachment-it-is-political_partner/)


Extract: “Republicans have a majority in the House and the Senate. Does that essentially make Trump bulletproof? More or less.

Although it is possible that Republican members of Congress could join with Democrats in calling for Trump’s removal, as we saw happen in the run-up to Nixon’s resignation over the Watergate scandal, today’s polarized political environment makes such an occurrence unlikely absent clear and convincing evidence of major wrongdoing. While Nixon’s impeachment was likely inevitable, with Democratic majorities in both houses of Congress in 1974, today Republican defections from Trump would be essential to any movement toward impeachment.”
Title: Re: Russiagate
Post by: Jim Pettit on May 20, 2017, 06:13:57 PM
But, Jim, almost all the attention goes out to this Trump-Russia-thing. To me and my limited perspective here in Europe with almost only the ASIF and Youtube as my resources, it looks as if this is all-consuming, feeding on itself, especially on Democrat websites.

I haven't found that to be the case (though, obviously, YMMV). As a for-instance, I'm looking right now at the home page of a popular progressive website, DailyKos (http://www.dailykos.com/). At this moment--11:48AM EDT--here are in order the subjects of the major articles on the front page, the ones placed there for prominence:

--The Ossoff/Handel runoff in the Georgia 6th, and Handel's attempts to cover up her past;

--A NYPD officer and US Army Major who was detained at JFK for several hours for the crime of having a Muslim name;

--The side effects of a Trump hiring freeze that is leaving vacant hundreds of public health jobs;

--Paid family leave polices under Trump and how they're detrimental to low-wage workers;

--Trump's hypocrisy vis-a-vis the First Lady's failure to cover her hair when meeting the Saudis;

--The GOP's ongoing voting rights suppression efforts in North Carolina;

--A roundup of various inside- and outside-the-beltway pundits covering multiple subjects;

--The idiocy of choosing Joe Lieberman to head the FBI;

--How some of Trump's aides are beginning to feel buyer's remorse;

--Fox News' pathological avoidance of any Trump scandal;

--Nevada's outlawing of 'ex-gay therapy' for teens;

--Leaks in the White House

And that's it. Twelve featured articles, with none specifically about Russia and the mounting evidence against Trump. In fact, only two of the 12 are directly about Trump at all; the rest are about policy. Again, this is just a snapshot on this Saturday morning--but this particular Democratic website can hardly be accused of being "all-consumed" or "feeding on itself" about 'Russiagate'.

Of course, some broadcast programs, ever-responsive to viewer demands, can spend 80%-90% of their recent time on Russiagate. And there are certainly left-leaning sites devoting most of their column-inches to this. But, really, why shouldn't they? It's the largest story going right now, and arguably the most important story in American politics since, maybe, ever.

We have a President and staff who very likely worked with a foreign government to help them subvert democracy and get elected. We have that same President and staff admitting on record that they are illegally trying to quash any investigation into that.

That's unacceptable, and must be looked into.
Title: Re: Russiagate
Post by: AbruptSLR on May 20, 2017, 06:41:15 PM
Since impeachment is a political process, here is an article entitled: “Analysis | 5 questions Congress needs to answer about Trump and Russia”, which discusses political issues that Congress can address in order to help America face this matter:

https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/politics/analysis-5-questions-congress-needs-to-answer-about-trump-and-russia/ar-BBBkgbN (https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/politics/analysis-5-questions-congress-needs-to-answer-about-trump-and-russia/ar-BBBkgbN)

Extract: “Believe it or not, Congress can help contextualize this. Its main function is to oversee the federal government, which means lawmakers are in a position to get clarity from the executive branch that can help the rest of us better understand what's really happening to the Trump administration right now. Here are five questions Congress can — and should — answer about Trump and Russia:”
Title: Re: Russiagate
Post by: wili on May 20, 2017, 06:52:24 PM
Good points, Jim, as usual.

There is very little on Russiagate at the Truthout site as well.
Title: Re: Russiagate
Post by: Neven on May 20, 2017, 07:08:36 PM
Thanks, guys. Like I said, this forum and YouTube are my main sources of information, so that skews my perspective.
Title: Re: Russiagate
Post by: wili on May 20, 2017, 08:01:04 PM
Sorry for not linking the Truthout site.

https://www.google.com/search?q=truthout&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8 (https://www.google.com/search?q=truthout&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8)

I too have found that pretty much anything on TV news is pretty much crap these days. Fox, though, has the distinction of being even worse than all the other worthless TV news, which is quite an achievement in itself, I suppose!  ::)

This Guardian piece seems to support some of what you've been trying to get across, I think, Neven: https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2017/may/19/trump-russia-the-promise-scandal-proof (https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2017/may/19/trump-russia-the-promise-scandal-proof)

Trump diehards dismiss Russia scandal: 'Show me the proof – or get off his case'

The latest controversy to hit the White House has rocked Washington – but Trump voters in this once-Democratic stronghold are standing by their man
Title: Re: Russiagate
Post by: Jim Pettit on May 20, 2017, 09:44:05 PM
I like this tweet from Kamala Harris (https://www.harris.senate.gov/)

(https://image.prntscr.com/image/84c17af61db94bad910d55b1024d9c10.png)
Title: Re: Russiagate
Post by: Neven on May 20, 2017, 10:47:02 PM
I like that tweet too.

Thanks for that link, wili. I remembered the name, but I had never checked it out. I'm reading a bit there now, and I already like this article because it's about strategy wrt how effed-up Trump and his policies are: Resistance in the Age of Trumpism: An Interview With Gerald Epstein (http://www.truth-out.org/opinion/item/40645-resistance-in-the-age-of-trumpism-an-interview-with-gerald-epstein)

And yes, that Guardian articles touches upon what I mean. There are a lot of people who voted for Trump after being disappointed by Obama (and with good reason). These are the people the Democrats need to get back, but that won't happen if the corporate neoliberals stay in charge of the party. And much of the Russiagate-stuff is fuelled by them, as they seem to have a lot of leverage in mainstream media circles (like for instance Clinton's campaign team's strategy to elevate Trump and ignore Sanders).
Title: Re: Russiagate
Post by: Buddy on May 21, 2017, 02:01:49 AM
Quote
Fox, though, has the distinction of being even worse than all the other worthless TV news, which is quite an achievement in itself, I suppose!  ::)

ABSOLUTELY.  Not even a close call (not that the others are good....THEY AREN'T).  Neven...apparently you have NOT WATCHED much FOX News compared to MSNBC or CNN.  And....from your writing, you haven't watched much of ANY of the "main stream news".

So I find it rather interesting that you make so many comments with such conviction on the main stream media....when you don't watch it?  Just saying......

By the way....I FORCE MYSELF TO WATCH FOX NEWS for an hour each week (not all at once....because I would gag).  My favorite is FOX & Friends (sarcasm intended).     

Title: Re: Russiagate
Post by: AbruptSLR on May 21, 2017, 03:42:53 AM
The article entitled: "White House looking at using ethics rule to weaken special investigation: Sources", makes the case that the WH is already working to undermine Mueller's credibility:

http://www.cnbc.com/2017/05/20/white-house-looking-at-using-ethics-rule-to-weaken-special-investigation-sources.html (http://www.cnbc.com/2017/05/20/white-house-looking-at-using-ethics-rule-to-weaken-special-investigation-sources.html)

Extract: "The White House did not respond to a request for comment on whether it is reviewing the ethics rule in order to undermine Mueller's credibility.

Mueller's former colleagues at WilmerHale, James Quarles and Aaron Zebley, are expected to join his investigation, according to a spokeswoman for the law firm. Neither Quarles nor Zebley represented Kushner or Manafort.

Mueller will now lead the ongoing Federal Bureau of Investigation probe into Trump's associates and senior Russian officials.

Unlike Kenneth Starr, the independent counsel appointed by a three-judge panel to investigate Bill and Hillary Clinton's real estate holdings in the 1990s, Mueller depends on the Justice Department for funding and he reports to Rosenstein, who was appointed by Trump.

When he announced Mueller's appointment this week, Rosenstein said Mueller will have "all appropriate resources to conduct a thorough and complete investigation.""
Title: Re: Russiagate
Post by: TerryM on May 21, 2017, 04:43:03 AM
A recent Harvard study found that the Media has been very harsh on Trump during his first 100 days - with the noted exception of Fox News. While this does confirm Trump's assertion that the Media has been very hard on him, I'm not sure that arguably the worst President in decades doesn't deserve arguably the worst press coverage.


https://heatst.com/culture-wars/harvard-study-reveals-huge-extent-of-anti-trump-media-bias/


What's almost lost in the article is that coverage swung from 90% negative to 80% positive when Trump unleashed his missiles against Syria - a clear violation of international law.
That the Mainstream Media approves of Trump at his most bellicose is frightening. America's media has dragged her into more than one unwanted war & apparently want's to repeat by beating the drums once again.
By pushing Trump into a place where every action is ridiculed or vilified - except when he rattles his swords - Trump will slowly learn that to call off the hounds all he needs to do is to bomb some brown people, possibly even bombing yellow people will bring favorable reviews.


Destroy Trump for the immigrants
Destroy Trump for the EPA
Destroy Trump for arming the Saudis
Destroy Trump for increasing militarization


so many paths are open


Praise Trump when he talks peace
Praise Trump when he lowers tensions with Russia and China


He's not the brightest bulb on the tree, but everyone glows while they're being applauded.
If the Media wants war with Russia, let them fight it.


Terry
Title: Re: Russiagate
Post by: Neven on May 21, 2017, 11:20:07 AM
Chomsky says it too, short video (1.43 minutes), transcript of last part below:

Noam Chomsky - Trump's Con Job
! No longer available (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DVyr_w1jKRQ#)

Quote
Sooner or later, I think the con is going to collapse. And much more important than trying to talk about impeaching Trump, is trying to develop programs that will be meaningful and constructive for the people who are deceived into supporting their class' enemy. Now, the Democrats have completely failed to do this. They abandoned the working class 40 years ago. Bernie Sanders is an option and that's what ought to be pursued, I think, not worrying about impeachment. Actually, if he was impeached, the result might be worse. Mike Pence is probably worse.

I follow Dutch media and most of the US news they produce, is centered around Trump and his behaviour. He's bowing to the Saudis, his wife and Ivanka do not wear something on their head! Oh, the hypocrisy! Yes, well, I've known Trump is a liar and a hypocrite for over a year now. All this attention is exactly what he wants, as it detracts from the other stuff, so that he can keep fooling those who voted for him.

For myself, I'm going to try and not participate in these discussions concerning reactions to Trump and his stupid antics (although I will keep an eye on this thread to see if anything comes of the impeachment attempts). I want to focus on what comes after Trump and this is now making me more determined to continue reporting on the state of the Arctic, as of course, Trump is going to do everything to deny the existence of AGW. This is what the 'sabbatical' is for, I guess. So, thanks for engaging with me and all the info. See you elsewhere.


PS
One last thing, and I repeat: please, try not to conflate Russia with what their oligarch club is doing to get more wealth and power. We, the Russians, and almost everyone in the world are just pawns in this oligarch game. Like the Frank Zappa song goes:

They just takes care
of NUMBER ONE
An' NUMBER ONE ain't YOU
You ain't even NUMBER TWO

They want nothing more than for us to polarize and demonize each other.
Title: Re: Russiagate
Post by: Buddy on May 21, 2017, 09:12:36 PM
With Preibus coming home early....this may be an indication that Mueller's time as Special Prosecutor may be short...and I am talking about days or weeks.  I am sure that first thing on Reince's plate will be to huddle with Session's and make something up to fire Mueller.  Mueller hit the ground running...and we don't know what he is having subpoenaed (tax returns, Trump corporate records, etc).

Expect Donnie to "hit hard" with anything he can.  Those in Trump Camp have already done more than enough to land them in prison.  Donnie HAS to get FBI investigation shut down....and QUICKLY.

I also think it is MORE LIKELY that he is gone BEFORE Comey delivers his open hearing with the Senate committee about two weeks from now.  There will never be a "good time" to fire him....but Donnie would likely do it BEFORE the Comey testimony....before there is even MORE MOMENTUM against our lying head of state.





Title: Re: Russiagate
Post by: AbruptSLR on May 21, 2017, 10:18:20 PM
With Preibus coming home early....this may be an indication that Mueller's time as Special Prosecutor may be short...and I am talking about days or weeks.  I am sure that first thing on Reince's plate will be to huddle with Session's and make something up to fire Mueller.  Mueller hit the ground running...and we don't know what he is having subpeoned (tax returns, Trump corporate records, etc).

Expect Donnie to "hit hard" with anything he can.  Those in Trump Camp have already done more than enough to land them in prison.  Donnie HAS to get FBI investigation shut down....and QUICKLY.

The linked article is entitled: “Reuters: White House looking for ways to undermine Mueller’s credibility as special counsel”, & it indicates that even if Sessions, or Trump, don't fire Mueller (as it could look like obstruction of justice); Trump could start pardoning anyone of his cronies that Mueller is investigating.  Plus, if no one could be charged because of the pardons, and if Mueller looks like his was then going to issue a politically damaging report anyway, Trump could just fire him before Mueller released such a report.

http://hotair.com/archives/2017/05/20/reuters-white-house-looking-ways-undermine-muellers-credibility-special-counsel/ (http://hotair.com/archives/2017/05/20/reuters-white-house-looking-ways-undermine-muellers-credibility-special-counsel/)

Extract: “The president’s power to pardon is plenary. It would look unbelievably shady for Trump to use one of his kingliest prerogatives as head of the executive branch to give all of his cronies “get out of jail free” cards, especially while an investigation’s ongoing and the facts haven’t yet come to light, but there’s really no question that it would be legal. Trump would be accused of an abuse of power in using pardons to shut down the probe — a lawful form of obstruction of justice, essentially, for the president’s exclusive enjoyment — but if he cared about public perceptions, he wouldn’t have fired Comey. He’d probably calculate that a few weeks of bad press for pardoning Flynn, Kushner, et al. is worth it in order to be done with Russiagate once and for all. Voters will forget about it in time. And his base, as always, will back him to the hilt. It’s coming. The only question is when.”
Title: Re: Russiagate
Post by: AbruptSLR on May 21, 2017, 10:26:41 PM
The linked article is entitled: “It’s becoming increasingly clear that Jared Kushner is part of Trump’s Russia problem”, which makes the idea that Trump may soon issue pardons for both Flynn, and Kushner, all the more believable.

https://www.vox.com/2017/5/20/15668162/kushner-trump-russia-corruption (https://www.vox.com/2017/5/20/15668162/kushner-trump-russia-corruption)

Extract: “And the White House’s reaction to the appointment of Robert Mueller as a special counsel in the Russia inquiry, including a possible attempt to use ethics rules to limit the scope of his investigation, shows that somebody in the White House is deeply worried about what might happen if Kushner were included in the probe.

If Kushner has, or is, a Russia problem, that means that the current investigations go to the beating family heart of the Trump White House. That could set up a very, very nasty fight indeed.”
Title: Re: Russiagate
Post by: Buddy on May 21, 2017, 10:54:31 PM
The only one in Donnie's cabinet that I have any amount of trust in......is the Secretary of Defense.  Both the Secretary of Homeland Security AND Donnie's new National Security Advisor (McMaster).....now look to be "compromised".

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/mcmaster-cant-remember-if-trump-called-comey-a-nut-job-in-meeting-with-russians_us_5921a9f5e4b03b485cb23631?ncid=inblnkushpmg00000009&ncid=inblnkushpmg00000009 (http://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/mcmaster-cant-remember-if-trump-called-comey-a-nut-job-in-meeting-with-russians_us_5921a9f5e4b03b485cb23631?ncid=inblnkushpmg00000009&ncid=inblnkushpmg00000009)

Just how far will Donnie go....  We know that FOX is "in his corner".....and Donnie's friends like Newt are more than happy to throw around ANYTHING that will get the focus off of Donnie and Russia.

https://www.yahoo.com/news/m/4c089759-3a71-3ad9-8636-ca16ab082ca9/ss_gingrich-spreads-conspiracy.html (https://www.yahoo.com/news/m/4c089759-3a71-3ad9-8636-ca16ab082ca9/ss_gingrich-spreads-conspiracy.html)

After Comey testifies in two weeks.....things should get a little tougher for Donnie.  But how many Republicans will indeed "switch"?  That....is as yet....not answered.

Some of the very same Republicans were more than happy to fry Bill Clinton for covering up his lies about his affair with Monica Lewinski.  At the time of Bill's impeachment.....Newt Gingrich was HAVING AN AFFAIR HIMSELF WITH THE WOMAN WHO IS NOW HIS CURRENT WIFE.....AND RECENTLY ANNOUNCED AS THE AMBASSADOR TO THE VATICAN.  By the way....there is NO DOUBT in my mind....that having Gingrich's wife as ambassador to the Vatican is an INTENTIONAL SNUB to the Vatican.

Things continue to "ramp up".....and with each passing week I keep saying that next week will be even more eventful.  Things WILL get crazier for a while I suspect.....and no...we are NOT OUT OF THE WOODS BY ANY MEANS.

We have a crazed sociopath......who has hired all the crooks he can...and I suspect most of them will stay with him, especially since they are in SOOOOO very deep now.


   

Title: Re: Russiagate
Post by: Buddy on May 21, 2017, 11:08:36 PM
The single most dangerous thing that most people CONTINUE to underestimate....or not realize altogether.....is the position that FOX News has played in "all of this."

For 25 years....FOX has continue to spew lies out to their audience on a multitude of issues.  They have....quite LITERALLY....BRAINWASHED many of their listeners......just as Russia does, just as Iran does, and just as other countries do with their "state run media".  That is why I reference FOX.....as TASS.  Almost no difference.  And if Donnie had his way.....he would pare the first amendment WAY BACK....and allow the jailing of journalists.

FOX....has ALWAYS BEEN....the most dangerous issue in US politics.  And now....that is coming to a head.  I don't pretend to know where it will end....I don't know.  But right now....FOX is fighting for Donnies life, because they KNOW it impacts their own future.



Title: Re: Russiagate
Post by: AbruptSLR on May 21, 2017, 11:10:58 PM
With Preibus coming home early....

The linked Palmer Report article indicates that Preibus is not the only WH staff member that will be coming home early:

http://www.palmerreport.com/opinion/early-reince-preibus-trump/2975/ (http://www.palmerreport.com/opinion/early-reince-preibus-trump/2975/)

Extract: "... Haberman added a followup tweet revealing that Priebus isn’t the only one who’s likely to end up bailing on the trip early, though she didn’t reveal the identity of the next to go."
Title: Re: Russiagate
Post by: Buddy on May 22, 2017, 01:11:34 AM
The expected firing of Mueller.....has to do with the upcoming testimony of Comey, more than it has to do with Reince coming home early.  Although...I FULLY expect that to be #1 on his plate with Jeff Sessions when he gets back.  And with "shit about to hit the fan".....Reince had to come home early.

Note....I do NOT expect the firing BEFORE Donnie gets back....but I also wouldn't be surprised.  He HAS to get rid of Mueller and the FBI investigation.

After the Comey testimony in two weeks.....Donnie is going to be in a very bad place.  Not that he will be in a good place by firing Mueller ANY TIME....

Donnie is a cornered animal.....and he will be striking out to people around him....to the press....to anyone....especially someone trying to bring him down.

Just my "take"...... 

Title: Re: Russiagate
Post by: TerryM on May 22, 2017, 04:46:39 AM
Once again Neven shows the way!


I'm not an expert on politics, particularly American politics. I'm not great as an advocate, writer, or propagandist.
What I can do WRT Trump's presidency is to assist others by learning, and passing on, more about the present state of Arctic Ice, AGW, which is the cause of the Arctic melt, what measures might ameliorate the situation & what policies might worsen the situation.


I'd preached this stance a month ago. Rather than preaching, it's time to live the life.


If my background was in immigrant rights - that's the field I'd fight him on.
If my expertise was in Constitutional Law, political history, or economics, I'd attempt to bring him down using these, but, thanks to Neven's sites I have developed some knowledge about Arctic Ice & Global Warming. This is an area where Trump is vulnerable, and it's where I can be most effective.
People that understand what is happening in the Arctic, and how Trump's policies are liable to exacerbate the situation, will seek another leader - and it won't be Pence.
An informed electorate is the answer & Arctic Ice is what we as a group know the most about.
Why not play to our strengths?


Terry
Title: Re: Russiagate
Post by: Buddy on May 22, 2017, 01:04:58 PM
RussiaGate....and the coverage of RussiaGate...... should make two things obvious:

1)  That FOX News has been nothing but a lying shill for "far right" policies over the years....whether that is global warming, birth control, taxes, RussiaGate, etc.  They will lie their ass off....and under Trump, they are doing double duty.  When it comes to RussiaGate....they either IGNORE or DEFLECT.  They are NOT a news organization....and they have NEVER been a news organization.

Although....I do believe THIS FOX NEWSCASTER JEANINE....that we can't take a president that is constantly under impeachment:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iIjY0-jVbiM (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iIjY0-jVbiM)

I'm sure that she is saying the SAME THINGS about Donnie right now. ;)

Or here.....where she is trying to "cut" when the cameraman is taking video of Trump bowing to the Saudi King:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SbT_F-jOu4w (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SbT_F-jOu4w)

FOX is a cesspool of fake journalism.....and they have "poisoned" their viewers over years and decades. 

2)   The FAKE CHRISTIANS of the "far right".....continue to try and pull the wool over the eyes of many.  Trump certainly used this to his advantage.  FAKE CHRISTIANS like Jerry Falwell Jr., Sean Hannity, Sarah Huckabee Sanders, Mike Huckabee, Donald Trump, Ann Coulter, Laura Ingrham, etc.  These are the folks that are more than happy to tout their Christianity when it is handy....but somehow forget to live a "Christian" lifestyle.








     
Title: Re: Russiagate
Post by: Buddy on May 22, 2017, 03:02:35 PM
For those with an interest in history.....here is the Wikipedia link to the Nixon impeachment process.  FORMAL impeachment proceedings for Nixon started in February of 1974....6 months before he resigned.....and 13 months AFTER his re-inauguration in January of 1973.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Impeachment_process_against_Richard_Nixon

The process continues..... 
Title: Re: Russiagate
Post by: Buddy on May 22, 2017, 06:55:29 PM
I guess I better update who will be the starting pitcher in the future for the US team:

1.  Donnie Trump

2.  Mikey Pence

3.  Paul Ryan.....Questionable

4Senator Oren Hatch.....Available and waiting.... ;)
Title: Re: Russiagate
Post by: AbruptSLR on May 22, 2017, 06:57:42 PM
The linked Palmer Report article is entitled: "Donald Trump heads to Israel amid assessment that the Israeli spy he outed to Russia is likely dead", which may be a problem even if one is an extreme narcissist like Trump:

http://www.palmerreport.com/politics/israel-spy-dead-trump/2992/ (http://www.palmerreport.com/politics/israel-spy-dead-trump/2992/)

Extract: "Juliette Kayyem, the former Assistant Secretary for U.S. Homeland Security, has told The Independent that the Israeli spy in question is “likely dead” as a direct result of Donald Trump’s mouth (link)."
Title: Re: Russiagate
Post by: Buddy on May 22, 2017, 07:59:59 PM
Three words will FOREVER haunt Donald Trump and Micahel Flynn......and I'm NOT talking about "I love you."

http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2017/may/22/united-passengers-chant-lock-him-up-as-unruly-man-/ (http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2017/may/22/united-passengers-chant-lock-him-up-as-unruly-man-/)

LOCK HIM UP

Wherever they go.....those three little words will haunt them for the rest of their lives.


Title: Re: Russiagate
Post by: AbruptSLR on May 22, 2017, 11:32:46 PM
The linked Palmer Report is entitled: "While speaking in Israel today, Donald Trump blurted out more classified intel about Israel".

http://www.palmerreport.com/opinion/more-israel-classified/3001/ (http://www.palmerreport.com/opinion/more-israel-classified/3001/)

Extract: "And so today Trump proudly chastised reporters to their faces over the fact that he never told the Russians the intel came from Israel.

So now we’ve got Donald Trump publicly revealing classified information while incorrectly bragging that he hadn’t privately revealed classified information. And he did it while standing next to the prime minister of the ally who gave the United States the classified information to begin with."
Title: Re: Russiagate
Post by: AbruptSLR on May 23, 2017, 12:41:21 AM
The linked article is entitled: "Manafort, Stone Turn Over Russia Documents to Senate Intel Committee"; however, it is still too early to say how meaningful these documents are.

http://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/manafort-stone-turn-over-russia-documents-senate-intel-committee-n763141 (http://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/manafort-stone-turn-over-russia-documents-senate-intel-committee-n763141)

Extract: "Two former associates of President Trump — Paul Manafort and Roger Stone — have turned over documents to the Senate Intelligence Committee in its Russia investigation, a congressional source with direct knowledge told NBC News.

Earlier this month, the committee sent document requests to Manafort and Stone, as well as Carter Page and Mike Flynn, officials said previously. The requests sought information pertaining to dealings with Russia. Page has not yet complied, the congressional source said, and Flynn plans to assert his Fifth Amendment right against self-incrimination as a reason not to comply with a committee subpoena, a source close to him has said."
Title: Re: Russiagate
Post by: Buddy on May 23, 2017, 02:38:58 AM
Boy.....I sure hope Sean Hannity doesn't get caught up in RussiaGate....and that we find out he is on the take as well.... ;)

http://occupydemocrats.com/2017/05/22/fox-news-reporters-just-admitted-theyre-disgusted-hannity-conspiracy-theories/ (http://occupydemocrats.com/2017/05/22/fox-news-reporters-just-admitted-theyre-disgusted-hannity-conspiracy-theories/)
Title: Re: Russiagate
Post by: AbruptSLR on May 23, 2017, 02:52:14 AM
The linked article is entitled: "Trump asked DNI, NSA to deny evidence of Russia collusion".  Talk about a pattern of trying to obstruct justice ???

http://www.cnn.com/2017/05/22/politics/donald-trump-intelligence-community/index.html (http://www.cnn.com/2017/05/22/politics/donald-trump-intelligence-community/index.html)

Extract: "President Donald Trump called two top intelligence community figures to request that they deny in public any evidence of collusion between his campaign and the Russian government during the 2016 election, multiple current and former US officials with knowledge tell CNN.

Trump's requests to Director of National Intelligence Dan Coats and National Security Agency Director Adm. Michael Rogers came after then-FBI Director James Comey publicly revealed before the House intelligence committee on March 20 that the FBI had an investigation into collusion to influence the 2016 election."
Title: Re: Russiagate
Post by: Buddy on May 23, 2017, 02:36:31 PM
1.  South Korea:  Park Guen-hye impeached (December 2016....finally ousted in March 2017).

http://www.cnn.com/2016/12/09/asia/south-korea-park-geun-hye-impeachment-vote/ (http://www.cnn.com/2016/12/09/asia/south-korea-park-geun-hye-impeachment-vote/)

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/asia/south-korea-president-park-geun-hye-steps-down-impeachment-corruption-scandal-a7621866.html (http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/asia/south-korea-president-park-geun-hye-steps-down-impeachment-corruption-scandal-a7621866.html)

2.  Brazil:  President Temer....."I won't resign.  Oust me if you want." Now...ongoing.

Operation Carwash...much bigger than Watergate.

http://plus55.com/brazil-culture/2017/05/60-minutes-operation-car-wash-watergate (http://plus55.com/brazil-culture/2017/05/60-minutes-operation-car-wash-watergate)
http://www.cnbc.com/2017/05/23/brazil-president-temer-i-wont-resign-oust-me-if-you-want.html (http://www.cnbc.com/2017/05/23/brazil-president-temer-i-wont-resign-oust-me-if-you-want.html)

3.  United States:  What will Donnie do?  Be impeached.....fight impeachment....resign?  Time will tell.

OK Donnie.....your call.  What is he going to do?  Is he...as I suspect....fight it UNLESS his support caves (as I suspect)?  Will he fire Mueller the Special Prosecutor (as I suspect he will)...and "hope for the best" and hope that his support holds "regardless of what he does."

I encourage you to watch the 60 Minutes clip of "Operation Car Wash" on Brazil linked above.  It describes what Brazil is NOW going through with their corruption scandal.....and just HOW DEEP AND HOW BROAD IT IS.

I suspect.....when RussiaGate is said and done....it will reach into some of Donnie's cabinet posts (Jeff Sessions, Wilbur Ross, and perhaps others)......as well as reach into both the US Senate and the US House of Representatives (yea....I'm looking at you Chaffetz and Nunenz AND OTHERS YET TO BE NAMED).  But my question is....JUST HOW MANY?  We may be surprised....
Title: Re: Russiagate
Post by: Buddy on May 23, 2017, 04:37:09 PM
Here is a great piece by David Gergen....who has served US Presidents of BOTH PARTIES.  In giving the commencement speech at his alma mater in North Carolina.....Gergen noted that ENOUGH IS ENOUGH IN NORTH CAROLINA.

His commencement speech could have been given on MANY SUBJECTS....and in other states as well.  The message was clear:

"For those of us who have stayed on the sidelines, it is time to stand up and be counted. It is time to raise our voices against this darkness. Indeed, it is time for fellow citizens of all stripes – white and black; young and old; native and newcomer; men, women and people of chosen gender – everyone – to join forces and preserve the best of who we are as a people."

Whether we are talking about RUSSIAGATE.....GLOBAL WARMING.......or a number of other issues.....GET OFF YOUR ASS AND GET INVOLVED.  Do NOT let the "forces of darkness" win on ANY ISSUE. 

In the US....we have allowed many to USE the "freedom of speech" in order to LIE AND DECEIVE:  YES....I'M TALKING ABOUT YOU FOX NEWS. QUIT LYING.

Humanity has a VERY LONG WAY TO GO.  And if we are to survive....we have to HUNGER FOR THE TRUTH....not what is "handy" or easy as the truth.....or what we would WANT the truth to be.

http://www.elon.edu/e-net/Article/132946 (http://www.elon.edu/e-net/Article/132946)
Title: Re: Russiagate
Post by: Buddy on May 23, 2017, 05:03:48 PM
I guess I better update who will be the starting pitcher in the future for the US team....AGAIN:

1.  Donnie Trump

2.  Mikey Pence

3.  Paul Ryan

4.  Senator Oren Hatch........Warming up.... ;)
Title: Re: Russiagate
Post by: Buddy on May 23, 2017, 05:19:04 PM
The FORMER CIA Director is now testifying......he notified the "so-called gang of eight" which included the following 4 Republicans as well as 4 Democrat's:

1)  McConnell (Kentucky)
2) Ryan (Wisconsin)
3)  Nunes (California)
4)  Burr (North Carolina)

....and the CIA Director informed them in AUGUST OF 2016 PRIOR TO THE ELECTION.....That Russia was INDEED INTERFERING WITH THE US ELECTIONS.

As I said a couple weeks ago.....Ryan and McConnell "have some 'splaining" to do.  Now you know why....

ADIOS AMIGOS.....

http://www.dailykos.com/story/2017/5/18/1663539/-Last-August-republicans-knew-about-Russian-interference-in-our-elections-and-didn-t-care (http://www.dailykos.com/story/2017/5/18/1663539/-Last-August-republicans-knew-about-Russian-interference-in-our-elections-and-didn-t-care)
Title: Re: Russiagate
Post by: Buddy on May 23, 2017, 06:12:02 PM
Rachel Maddow, The Washington Post, and The New York Times want to know:

What do you give someone YOU HATE.....but who has done SO MUCH FOR YOU?

Record ratings for Rachel.......wildly improved subscriptions for both the NY Times and Washington Post.

https://www.yahoo.com/tv/msnbc-hits-ratings-milestone-fox-news-drops-third-205835259.html (https://www.yahoo.com/tv/msnbc-hits-ratings-milestone-fox-news-drops-third-205835259.html)

FOX now in 3rd place.....the first time since 2000.  Only Donnie could do so much....in so little time.
Title: Re: Russiagate
Post by: Buddy on May 23, 2017, 06:47:54 PM
Former Nixon white house counsel John Dean's "twitter take" on involvement by some in the senate and the US house of reps:


GOP doesn't think the Russian hacking happened, maybe because it helped them. Knowingly profiting from crime could make 'em co-conspirators.


https://twitter.com/JohnWDean/status/866738966287884288

Now you know why "the list" of people who have at least POTENTIAL if not ACTUAL criminal cases against them will grow to be pretty long......

The DC lawyers are going to have a field day year years. ;)
Title: Re: Russiagate
Post by: AbruptSLR on May 24, 2017, 02:32:50 AM
The linked Palmer Report article is entitled: “As the Trump-Russia scandal explodes, Donald Trump hires attorney with RICO experience”, maybe they have evidence of Trump laundering Russian money.

http://www.palmerreport.com/politics/attorney-rico-trump/3027/ (http://www.palmerreport.com/politics/attorney-rico-trump/3027/)

Extract: “... Trump has hired an attorney with expertise in defending clients against RICO cases and action brought by state attorneys general. This sounds a lot like Trump may be most worried about the prospect of the Special Counsel uncovering evidence of RICO (money laundering) in Trump’s businesses – and that he may also be worried about New York State Attorney General Eric Schneiderman getting involved with the case against him.“
Title: Re: Russiagate
Post by: Neven on May 24, 2017, 08:38:55 AM
Record ratings for Rachel.......wildly improved subscriptions for both the NY Times and Washington Post.

$$$$$!
Title: Re: Russiagate
Post by: Buddy on May 24, 2017, 04:13:00 PM
Those looking for the next shoe to drop.....should be looking for a large BOOT instead. ???
Title: Re: Russiagate
Post by: AbruptSLR on May 25, 2017, 11:58:59 PM
Here are links to more of the parade of hits from the Palmer Report on Russiagate:

1. "Republican operative worked with Russian hacker Guccifer 2.0 to rig House elections in 2016"

http://www.palmerreport.com/politics/house-russia-guccifer/3072/ (http://www.palmerreport.com/politics/house-russia-guccifer/3072/)

Extract: "If you’re wondering how Donald Trump campaign adviser Roger Stone got connected with Russian hacker Guccifer 2.0, that answer has been revealed in the form of a Republican operative in Florida. And if you’re wondering if Russian government hacking extended beyond merely rigging the election for Donald Trump and also rigged the election in favor of any House Republican candidates, that answer has now been confirmed as well."

&

2. "Report: Mitch McConnell, Scott Walker, other Republican leaders tied to Russian money"

http://www.palmerreport.com/politics/mcconnell-russia-money/3046/ (http://www.palmerreport.com/politics/mcconnell-russia-money/3046/)

Extract: "The newly unearthed research has been produced by political pundit Scott Dworkin. This week he’s posted a treasure trove of documents tying various Republican Party leaders to campaign funding that’s coming from entities that appear to be close to the Russian government. For instance he’s found that a Super PAC linked to Senate Majority Leader Mitch McConnell took $2.5 million from a pro-Kremlin oligarch in Ukraine during the most recent election (link)."
Title: Re: Russiagate
Post by: AbruptSLR on May 26, 2017, 11:58:42 AM
The linked article is entitled: "Trump team reportedly assembling 'street fighters' to deal with Russia probe"; & indicates that Trump has taken Bannon out of the doghouse in order to reboot him as a street fighter (brown shirt) to deal with Russiagate:

https://www.aol.com/article/news/2017/05/25/trump-team-reportedly-assembling-street-fighters-to-deal-with-russia-probe/22109810/ (https://www.aol.com/article/news/2017/05/25/trump-team-reportedly-assembling-street-fighters-to-deal-with-russia-probe/22109810/)

Extract: "Both Steve Bannon and Reince Priebus are said to have left early from the foreign visit to lead the planning."
Title: Re: Russiagate
Post by: Archimid on May 26, 2017, 05:45:45 PM
http://edition.cnn.com/2017/05/25/politics/trump-nato-financial-payments/ (http://edition.cnn.com/2017/05/25/politics/trump-nato-financial-payments/)

This is the actual result of Russiagate. Between racist protectionists in the US and the influence of Russia through traitors like Manaforte and Flynn the plan is to weaken the US influence over the world. This will open space for the Chinese, Russian and other powerful forces to takeover the sphere of influence of the US.

Will this be good for the world? Maybe. Will this be good for  the US, most definitely not. Will it be good for Trump inc and accomplices? Absolutely.

Title: Re: Russiagate
Post by: AbruptSLR on May 26, 2017, 07:11:41 PM
http://edition.cnn.com/2017/05/25/politics/trump-nato-financial-payments/ (http://edition.cnn.com/2017/05/25/politics/trump-nato-financial-payments/)

This is the actual result of Russiagate. Between racist protectionists in the US and the influence of Russia through traitors like Manaforte and Flynn the plan is to weaken the US influence over the world. This will open space for the Chinese, Russian and other powerful forces to takeover the sphere of influence of the US.

Will this be good for the world? Maybe. Will this be good for  the US, most definitely not. Will it be good for Trump inc and accomplices? Absolutely.

+1
Title: Re: Russiagate
Post by: AbruptSLR on May 26, 2017, 08:01:59 PM
The linked Palmer Report recommends that Kushner's security clearance should be suspended, now.

"Jared Kushner is the new Michael Flynn, right down to Russian blackmail"

http://www.palmerreport.com/opinion/kushner-flynn-russia/3085/ (http://www.palmerreport.com/opinion/kushner-flynn-russia/3085/)

Extract: "When Sally Yates informed the White House that Michael Flynn had been compromised by Russia, she did so because he had determined that Flynn was susceptible to being blackmailed by the Russians. That means there’s now equal reason to worry that Russia might blackmail Kushner. In fact Congressman Ted Lieu came out and said it today: “Security clearance for Jared Kushner must be suspended NOW. Russians now know he is vulnerable & can leverage him with real or fake threats.”"
Title: Re: Russiagate
Post by: AbruptSLR on May 26, 2017, 08:13:04 PM
The linked Palmer Report discusses possible leaks indicating that the European Intelligence Community my soon leak Russiagate information about the Trump Administration.

http://www.palmerreport.com/politics/euro-intel-trump/3081/ (http://www.palmerreport.com/politics/euro-intel-trump/3081/)

Extract: "After today’s NATO debacle, political pundit John Schindler revealed that he “Just got this msg from a pal who’s a snr Europe scty official: ‘After [Trump NATO speech] it’s obvious he’s Putin’s boy. Now we will act.'” (link). Thereafter, political pundit and MSNBC commentator Rick Wilson went on to confirm this: “The theory that Euro IC gloves are off also extends to a very senior GER govt contact of mine. White. Hot. Fire.” (link/a>)"
Title: Re: Russiagate
Post by: Buddy on May 27, 2017, 03:00:13 AM
More gasoline for the fire.  Anyone have a match?😳
Title: Re: Russiagate
Post by: AbruptSLR on May 27, 2017, 06:11:24 AM
More gasoline for the fire.  Anyone have a match?😳

Here's a match:

"'This is serious': Jared Kushner reportedly tried to set up a secret Trump-Russia back channel"

http://www.businessinsider.com/jared-kushner-wanted-secret-talks-russia-trump-2017-5 (http://www.businessinsider.com/jared-kushner-wanted-secret-talks-russia-trump-2017-5)

Extract: "In talks with Kislyak in December, Kushner floated the possibility of setting up a secure line of communication between the Trump transition team and Russia — and having those talks take place in Russian diplomatic facilities in the US, essentially concealing their interactions from US government scrutiny, The Post wrote, citing US intelligence officials briefed on the matter.
Kislyak reportedly passed along that request to Moscow. The Post's Ellen Nakashima, Adam Entous, and Greg Miller reported that the Russian ambassador was "taken aback" by Kushner's request, because it posed significant risks for both the Trump team and the Kremlin."
Title: Re: Russiagate
Post by: Buddy on May 27, 2017, 11:36:58 AM
Next phase.....the bunker mentality begins.  How many weeks or months can it last before it caves?  Depends on how quickly politicians abandon ship.  Donnie is now a lame duck leader.  He can pretend all he wants....it isn't going away.
Title: Re: Russiagate
Post by: Buddy on May 27, 2017, 11:46:08 AM
And when does the issue of FOX News working DIRECTLY with the Trump campaign.....as well as post campaign begin to get exposed?
Title: Re: Russiagate
Post by: AbruptSLR on May 27, 2017, 05:59:21 PM
And the Palmer Report “Parade of Hits” on Trumps Administration w.r.t. Russiagate, just keep coming:

“FBI: Jared Kushner may have negotiated Russian loans for Donald Trump team in exchange for sanctions”.

http://www.palmerreport.com/politics/negotiate-kushner-fbi/3104/ (http://www.palmerreport.com/politics/negotiate-kushner-fbi/3104/)


Extract: “Now we know why the FBI is investigating Jared Kushner’s activities with regard to Donald Trump’s Russia scandal. It’s not just the reported backchannel that Kushner was trying to set up with the Russian government during the transition period – it’s the criminal activities that Kushner and Russia may have been planning to negotiate through that secret backchannel.”

&

“We told you last month Jared Kushner was caught up in Trump-Russia. He’s not the only Trump family member.”

http://www.palmerreport.com/politics/told-you-kushner-russia/3105/ (http://www.palmerreport.com/politics/told-you-kushner-russia/3105/)

Extract: “... the key going forward is that the original report asserted multiple members of Donald Trump’s family had been intercepted conducting illegal business in relation to the Trump-Russia scandal. That means it’s not just Kushner. So who is it? We can rule out the little kid Barron, as well as Tiffany Trump, who’s not closely associated with her father. And while something could change, we don’t think there’s logical reason to believe it was Melania.”
Title: Re: Russiagate
Post by: AbruptSLR on May 27, 2017, 11:52:34 PM
The linked article indicates that the Team Trump was working to set US policy by negotiating with Russia while Obama was still in office.

“AP reports Kushner back channel with Russia involved Syria”


https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/politics/ap-reports-kushner-back-channel-with-russia-involved-syria/ar-BBBzI5L (https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/politics/ap-reports-kushner-back-channel-with-russia-involved-syria/ar-BBBzI5L)

Extract: “Kushner spoke with Ambassador Sergey Kislyak about creating that line of communication to facilitate sensitive discussions aimed at exploring the incoming administration's options with Russia as it was developing its Syria policy, according to a person familiar with the discussions.

The intent was to connect Trump's chief national security adviser at the time, Michael Flynn, with Russian military leaders, said this person, who wasn't authorized to publicly discuss private policy deliberations and spoke on condition of anonymity.“
Title: Re: Russiagate
Post by: AbruptSLR on May 28, 2017, 03:47:19 AM
And the parade continues:

“Jared Kushner suddenly claims he was always considering quitting Donald Trump’s White House in July”

http://www.palmerreport.com/politics/july-kushner/3111/ (http://www.palmerreport.com/politics/july-kushner/3111/)

Extract: “Kushner is now telling his friends, who just happened to conveniently turn around and immediately leak it to the New York Times link), that he and his wife Ivanka Trump have always been planning to reevaluate their status in Washington DC at the six month mark. Perhaps this has been true all along, perhaps not. But either way, Kushner appears to be putting this tidbit out there publicly now, as a way of giving himself an exit ramp in July if things continue to get worse for him between now and then.“
Title: Re: Russiagate
Post by: AbruptSLR on May 28, 2017, 04:03:26 AM
The linked WP article entitled: “Trump considers major changes amid escalating Russia crisis”, indicates that Team Trump is emulating “war” tactics from the movie “The Godfather”:

https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/politics/trump-considers-major-changes-amid-escalating-russia-crisis/ar-BBBA58g (https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/politics/trump-considers-major-changes-amid-escalating-russia-crisis/ar-BBBA58g)

Extract: “Following Trump’s return to Washington on Saturday night from a nine-day foreign trip that provided a bit of a respite from the controversy back home, the White House plans to far more aggressively combat the cascading revelations about contacts between Trump associates, including Jared Kushner, the president’s son-in-law and senior adviser, and Russia.”

While much remained fluid Saturday, the beefed-up operation could include the return of some of Trump’s more combative campaign aides, including former campaign manager Corey Lewandowski, who was fired nearly a year ago, and former deputy campaign manager David N. Bossie, who made his name in politics by investigating Bill and Hillary Clinton for two decades. Both of them have already been part of ongoing discussions about how to build a “war room,” which have been led in part by chief strategist Stephen K. Bannon.

Other Trump players who have drifted from his orbit in recent months, such as Sam Nunberg, are also being courted to play more active roles, either officially joining the White House or in an outside capacity, working through confidants of the president.

“Go to the mattresses,” a line from “The Godfather” film about turning to tough mercenaries during troubled times, has circulated among Trump’s friends, according to two people close to the “war room” discussions.”
Title: Re: Russiagate
Post by: miki on May 28, 2017, 06:01:10 AM
And it does smell of oil...

https://thinkprogress.org/putin-thinks-russia-will-benefit-from-climate-change-and-communities-will-adjust-35a2014c28b5 (https://thinkprogress.org/putin-thinks-russia-will-benefit-from-climate-change-and-communities-will-adjust-35a2014c28b5)


https://insideclimatenews.org/news/06022017/russia-vladimir-putin-donald-trump-climate-change-paris-climate-agreement (https://insideclimatenews.org/news/06022017/russia-vladimir-putin-donald-trump-climate-change-paris-climate-agreement)


https://inews.co.uk/essentials/news/world/vladimir-putin-climate-change-real-good/ (https://inews.co.uk/essentials/news/world/vladimir-putin-climate-change-real-good/)


http://www.japantimes.co.jp/news/2017/03/31/world/science-health-world/putin-says-climate-change-not-caused-emissions/ (http://www.japantimes.co.jp/news/2017/03/31/world/science-health-world/putin-says-climate-change-not-caused-emissions/)
Title: Re: Russiagate
Post by: AbruptSLR on May 28, 2017, 08:16:08 PM
The parade of Palmer Report hits keep on coming:

"Washington Post exposes Jared Kushner’s attempt at planting Syria excuse for Russia backchannel"

http://www.palmerreport.com/politics/washington-post-exposes-jared-kushners-attempt-planting-syria-excuse-russia-backchannel/3118/ (http://www.palmerreport.com/politics/washington-post-exposes-jared-kushners-attempt-planting-syria-excuse-russia-backchannel/3118/)

Extract: "At this point the following has been established: Jared Kushner secretly met with the Russian Ambassador during the transition period to try to set up a secret backchannel with the Russian government. Immediately afterward, he met with the head of a Russian government-controlled bank. He then committed a felony by lying about those meetings on his SF-86 security clearance form. And after it all came out in the media, he tried to anonymously plant a story in the media that the backchannel was about Syria. Kushner is in a hole, and he just keeps digging."
Title: Re: Russiagate
Post by: AbruptSLR on May 29, 2017, 04:40:00 AM
The linked YouTube video is entitled: “Vladimir Putin's Rise to Power – Full Documentary”, and it describes how Putin transformed Russia into a Kleptocracy.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nY3Uz4ELwM0 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nY3Uz4ELwM0)

Title: Re: Russiagate
Post by: AbruptSLR on May 29, 2017, 07:16:50 PM
Here is an opinion piece from the Palmer Report entitled: "Now we know that Michael Flynn has Donald Trump and Jared Kushner by the balls"; which indicates that Trump & Kushner may well be facing criminal charges if the FBI has flipped Flynn with a plea deal to provide evidence and testimony about Trump's kleptocratic negotiations with Russia in December 2016:

http://www.palmerreport.com/opinion/balls-flynn-trump/3140/ (http://www.palmerreport.com/opinion/balls-flynn-trump/3140/)

Extract: "… whatever Kushner was doing during that first meeting, Flynn was there and he heard every word of it. Some reports say the FBI is looking into a scenario in which Kushner offered to ease U.S. sanctions on the Russian government in exchange for Russian bank loans to the Trump’s personal empire. If so, that had to have been discussed at the meeting with Kislyak, meaning Flynn knows about it. So Flynn holds all the cards. He has all along, and both Trump and Kushner have known it all along."
Title: Re: Russiagate
Post by: AbruptSLR on May 29, 2017, 08:00:42 PM
While the linked "Meet the Press" video, has no new news, it does provide a nice MSM summary of recent Russiagates developments:

http://www.nbc.com/meet-the-press/video/meet-the-press-may-28-2017/3525301 (http://www.nbc.com/meet-the-press/video/meet-the-press-may-28-2017/3525301)
Title: Re: Russiagate
Post by: Buddy on May 30, 2017, 04:16:17 PM
One thing to note...is that Donnie is pretty much STUCK with the team he has.  He can't FIRE anyone who has any real knowledge of the crap going on inside the administration...especially with RussiaGate.  That is why Trump is so worried about Flynn and Manafort. 

So now...Donnie is stuck with rearranging the chairs on the deck of the Titanic.  The only people who would work for Donnie now...are third tier employees that nobody else will hire....

Still waiting for Trump to fire Mueller before Comey testifies.  Donnie will likely lash out to the bitter end.  His business "empire" (charade) will fold up like a cheap suit within a couple of years from the time Donnie is removed/resigns.

Title: Re: Russiagate
Post by: AbruptSLR on May 30, 2017, 11:10:05 PM
The linked article is entitled: "Trump personal attorney declines congressional Russia probe request".  Congress is now working on a subpoena for this information.

http://www.politico.com/story/2017/05/30/michael-cohen-decline-congressional-russia-investigation-238945 (http://www.politico.com/story/2017/05/30/michael-cohen-decline-congressional-russia-investigation-238945)

Extract: "President Donald Trump’s longtime personal attorney has turned down a request to be interviewed and provide documents in the congressional probe into Russian interference into the 2016 election."

See also:

"Hey Donald Trump, is it a bad sign when your attorney needs an attorney? "

http://www.palmerreport.com/politics/trump-attorney-needs-attorney/3166/ (http://www.palmerreport.com/politics/trump-attorney-needs-attorney/3166/)

Extract: "Asking Trump’s attorney to testify in the Russia scandal only makes sense if the Senate Intel Committee believes the move will yield major new revelations. Otherwise it’s a big risk to take that could end up backfiring. So it raises the question of what the committee knows that we don’t."
Title: Re: Russiagate
Post by: TerryM on May 30, 2017, 11:53:21 PM
Since I have no reason to second guess Buddy, I thought we should learn a little more about the 46th President of the Excited States of America:


President Pence rode Koch Brothers donations all the way to the White House.
Both Koch Industries & Koch Enterprises were major contributors as far back as his runs for congress. In 1991 they provided support for Pence's Indiana Policy Review Foundation and when Governor Pence made some of the largest tax cuts in state history he was applauded by the Koch Brothers Americans for Prosperity.

He shares top staff with the Koch Brothers and has been "a loyal political ally" of theirs for years according to The Nation.


When asked about climate change in 2016 Pence responded that "I don't know that that is a resolved issue in science today". He may have learned this during the 5 years in which he was a talk show host on the radio.


On his Congressional Web Site he states, "Global warming is a Myth. The global warming treaty is a disaster. There, I said it."


I'll leave you with a few words from our next President, speaking to Bill Matthews.


"Uh, do I believe in evolution. I embrace the view that God created the Heavens, and the Earth, the Seas and all that's in them. The means he used to do that, I can't say, but I do believe in the Fundamental Truth."


(He appears to have been channeling William Jennings Bryant at the "Monkey Trial")


https://www.desmogblog.com/mike-pence (https://www.desmogblog.com/mike-pence)


I'll be back with more information on our next President of the Excited States when the bile has settled.
Terry
Title: Re: Russiagate
Post by: Buddy on May 31, 2017, 02:58:09 AM
As we continue to meander......as RussaGate continues to play out...... I encourage you to look CLOSELY at the psychology of the individuals:  What they do vs what they say......how they say it......their body language (for instance of Putin during Macron's speech......or the body language of Trump almost any time).

Donnie looks to be "psychologically breaking down".  I guess if I lied like a drunken sailor 24x7......I would be breaking down as well.  I doubt anything like this has EVER played out in the US to this extent.....and we STILL haven't gotten to the juicy stuff.....and may not for many months.  Donnie has already lied so much his team can't keep things straight.

Tick......tick......tick.  That nasty clock just won't stop until it gets to the truth......
Title: Re: Russiagate
Post by: AbruptSLR on May 31, 2017, 03:02:09 AM
The linked article entitled: “Flynn providing documents to Senate, first batch by June 6”, indicates that Flynn will turn over documents to the Senate that do not incriminate himself.

http://www.cnn.com/2017/05/30/politics/michael-flynn-documents-senate/index.html (http://www.cnn.com/2017/05/30/politics/michael-flynn-documents-senate/index.html)
Title: Re: Russiagate
Post by: budmantis on May 31, 2017, 07:40:51 AM
Since I have no reason to second guess Buddy, I thought we should learn a little more about the 46th President of the Excited States of America:

Terry

Terry, you are "right on" about Pence, and the resignation or impeachment of Trump would end up with a possible ten years of a Pence presidency. I believe (and hope!) that Pence would not be re-elected as President, but even if he was, he would bring to the office of President a level or two of sanity higher than what the Donald can provide. Also, a Democrat majority in both houses of Congress is highly likely after the 2020 election.

Another issue to consider is whether the electorate would consider Pence worthy of re-election since he stood at Trump's right hand as a very loyal Vice-President during Trump's turbulent and hopefully short tenure as Commander-In-Chief.

BudM
Title: Re: Russiagate
Post by: TerryM on May 31, 2017, 11:08:20 PM
BudM
I do so hope that you are right, and that my fears are for naught.


I see Trump as an uneducated fool that can get us in a lot of trouble. He appears to be loosing Republican support which will make it very difficult for him to accomplish anything, good or bad. This I see as a positive.


Pence appears a more accomplished politician, not a high bar to clear, and he will have, at least initially, the full support of the Republican side of the aisle. Being an experienced political executive he will know how to get laws passed that his sponsors, the Koch Brothers, approve of.
The Democrats should pick up House seats in 2018, but Republicans will hold the Senate, and probably will be able to keep their majority in the House.


If things continue apace Trump will be forced to increase his popularity by bombing somebody. The news outlets have been heavily weighted against him - except when he lobbed missiles at Syria and dropped the biggest conventional bomb ever fired in anger over Afghanistan. The news then swung from 80% negative to 80% positive as he killed some brown people.


Reagan attacked Granada, Daddy Bush did Panama, bolstering opinion polls by bombing innocents is not a new strategy. Who will Trump's victim be?


North Korea seems a likely candidate, but both China and Russia could rush to North Korea's aid, there is historic precedent. My guess is that a far lower priority target will be green lighted. Some small unarmed nation that no one cares too much about, probably in Central or South America. An island nation in the Pacific might fit the bill. Whack East Timur or perhaps conquer the rest of Samoa or Papua New Guinea.


I don't think provoking Russia or China has an upside. If it simmers the way it has been trade will be effected, if it gets hot it could flash to nuclear should either side perceive that the other was about to land a decisive blow.


I believe we want the same thing, which is for the Trump & Pence Presidencies to pass with as little damage as possible. It's going to last a minimum of 4 years & I'd prefer an incompetent with little support at the helm.


Terry
Title: Re: Russiagate
Post by: Buddy on June 01, 2017, 03:17:37 AM
This is now taking a very weird turn:  The Trump administration may be giving back to Russia...the two compounds that the US took from them in late December of 2016...5 months ago...as a sanction for interfering in the US election.

This is going to get even more interesting next week when Comey testifies.
Title: Re: Russiagate
Post by: Buddy on June 01, 2017, 03:30:04 AM
I have been putting together a "mental list" of  Congressmen who are POTENTIALY are "compromised" by the Russians.

Some of them will be obvious.....at least I think their actions show that they are likely compromised.  Others may not be as obvious.  But when the dots keep connecting......I have no choice but to follow it where it leads me.

I will post with some explanation in the coming days.
Title: Re: Russiagate
Post by: Buddy on June 01, 2017, 04:26:52 AM
Here are the questions that need to be answered:

1). What is the leverage that Russia has on Trump?  Clearly IT IS MAJOR LEVERAGE.  MAJOR.  Donnie is working for Russia right now.

2). How far will Donnie go to stay in office.  I think he will go MUCH further than you think.

3). When will Mueller be fired?  I think there is a significant chance it happens before Comey testifies.

Again.....the intensity gets ramped up.

Title: Re: Russiagate
Post by: Buddy on June 01, 2017, 04:36:23 AM
Mike Pence will NOT be president.  Either BOTH of them (Donnie & Mike...as well as many others) are given the boot...or Donnie stays in power.  And if Donnie stays...we have MUCH bigger issues on our hands in the US.
Title: Re: Russiagate
Post by: budmantis on June 01, 2017, 06:07:40 AM
BudM
I do so hope that you are right, and that my fears are for naught.

I see Trump as an uneducated fool that can get us in a lot of trouble. He appears to be loosing Republican support which will make it very difficult for him to accomplish anything, good or bad. This I see as a positive.

I believe we want the same thing, which is for the Trump & Pence Presidencies to pass with as little damage as possible. It's going to last a minimum of 4 years & I'd prefer an incompetent with little support at the helm.


Terry

I HOPE I am right Terry! Time will tell one way or the other. I'm sure the Republican majority in both houses of Congress would love to see Pence as President, but when it comes to 2020, Pence wont have the following that Trump has enjoyed.

BudM
Title: Re: Russiagate
Post by: budmantis on June 01, 2017, 06:15:03 AM
Mike Pence will NOT be president.  Either BOTH of them (Donnie & Mike...as well as many others) are given the boot...or Donnie stays in power.  And if Donnie stays...we have MUCH bigger issues on our hands in the US.

You may well be correct Buddy, but somehow I think Pence will escape judgement and if Trump is impeached, Pence will become the 46th President. The Republicans will have to be involved in a Trump impeachment and they are probably salivating at the thought of having a compliant conservative Republican like Pence. Imagine the legislation that the Republicans could be able to pass with Pence at the helm.

BudM
Title: Re: Russiagate
Post by: Buddy on June 01, 2017, 01:37:20 PM
When all is said and done....RussiaGate will prove to be the largest political and financial corruption fiasco in history and will ensnare Donnie, Mikey, Jeffrey (Sessions), and many others.

It may end up being one of the largest money laundering schemes in US political history...and is getting closer to blowing up.  I believe this may ensnare Paul Ryan, Nunez, Chaffetz, and many others inside the Trump administration, Trump companies, Congress, and the Trump cabinet.
Title: Re: Russiagate
Post by: Buddy on June 01, 2017, 03:32:16 PM
At least one of the following two things will happen BEFORE Comey testifies next week (note...both of them COULD occur...but certainly one of them will):

1). Trump could declare executive privilege with regards to his conversations with Comey.

2).  Special Counsel Mueller will be fired by Trump.
Title: Re: Russiagate
Post by: Buddy on June 01, 2017, 03:42:24 PM
One thing to note....a couple months ago I said the White House press corps would eventually arrive at the point where they become openly beligerant to Spicey.  Yesterday was that day.  It WILL get even uglier and more combative yet....but yesterday the dam broke regarding Spicey and his relationship with the White House press corps.

Title: Re: Russiagate
Post by: ritter on June 01, 2017, 06:00:42 PM
Comey had best keep an eye out for falling pianos. I'd hate to be in that guy's shoes right now.

(https://vignette3.wikia.nocookie.net/uncyclopedia/images/f/f2/Un-falling-piano-symbol.png/revision/latest?cb=20070223002428)
Title: Re: Russiagate
Post by: AbruptSLR on June 02, 2017, 12:13:29 AM
Comey had best keep an eye out for falling pianos. I'd hate to be in that guy's shoes right now.

(https://vignette3.wikia.nocookie.net/uncyclopedia/images/f/f2/Un-falling-piano-symbol.png/revision/latest?cb=20070223002428)

If Trump invokes Executive Privilege, then maybe he would need to use a piano.
Title: Re: Russiagate
Post by: SteveMDFP on June 02, 2017, 12:37:32 AM
Mike Pence will NOT be president.  Either BOTH of them (Donnie & Mike...as well as many others) are given the boot...or Donnie stays in power.  And if Donnie stays...we have MUCH bigger issues on our hands in the US.

Pence seems to be more peripherally involved.  I expect Trump to resign eventually, not terribly soon.  Either Congressional Republicans privately tell him he'll be impeached if he doesn't resign, or the FBI waives prosecution in exchange for Trump leaving politics permanently.  Even without impeachment, Trump could be criminally charged by the Justice Department. 

If Trump resigns first, Pence becomes President and nominates a Vice President.  If Pence were to resign first, Trump would nominate some squeaky-clean consensus Republican for VP, who would become President upon Trumps resignation.

Ryan would only be in the true line of succession if both Pence and Trump resigned simultaneously.  That seems improbable.
Title: Re: Russiagate
Post by: AbruptSLR on June 02, 2017, 12:55:04 AM
The linked Palmer Report indicates that the scope of Russiagate is expanding to include Farage:

FBI targets Brexit leader Nigel Farage in Donald Trump’s Russia scandal

http://www.palmerreport.com/politics/fbi-nigel-farage-trump/3214/ (http://www.palmerreport.com/politics/fbi-nigel-farage-trump/3214/)

Title: Re: Russiagate
Post by: Archimid on June 02, 2017, 01:27:33 AM
The Paris agreement is also Russiagate. Putin knows climate change is real. He also know that Russia is mostly a frozen land surrounded by ice while the US strikes almost perfect weather. He knows climate change won't be good, but he also knows it will be much worse for the US. This is a double whammy.

On one hand the US will be conceding even more power an influence by leaving the treaty. On the other they keep the oil market going  to the benefit of Russia. On yet another hand (tm) by forgoing the pursuit of efficiency and energy diversification the US will drive itself into obsolescence.

Title: Re: Russiagate
Post by: Buddy on June 02, 2017, 02:08:40 AM
The subject of "timing" will indeed be a topic of discussion down the road.  Trump, Pence, Sessions, Little Trumps, etc.  There is going to be a lot of thought going into this by the Justice Dept.  Uncharted territory....and a LOT of moving parts.  And as I noted a couple of months ago.....the "T word" is now being bandied about.  Expect that volume to increase as the breadth and depth of RussiaGate continues to unfold.
Title: Re: Russiagate
Post by: pileus on June 02, 2017, 04:52:43 AM
For a community of interest such as this forum that is all too familiar with the mechanisms of systemic denialism, it is quite remarkable how in this and other threads some continue to deny and ridicule the concept of collusion between the Trump campaign and the Russian government in the 2016 election, and the likely deeper history with Trump's financial web, in the face of growing evidence and data points.

The following article highlights the Trump administration's immediate attempts to ease sanctions against Russia WRT the illegal and immoral Crimean occupation, foiled by Obama holdovers in the State Dept. 

Can anyone say quid pro quo?

https://www.yahoo.com/news/trump-administrations-secret-efforts-ease-russia-sanctions-fell-short-231301145.html (https://www.yahoo.com/news/trump-administrations-secret-efforts-ease-russia-sanctions-fell-short-231301145.html)

Unknown to the public at the time, top Trump administration officials, almost as soon as they took office, tasked State Department staffers with developing proposals for the lifting of economic sanctions, the return of diplomatic compounds and other steps to relieve tensions with Moscow.

These efforts to relax or remove punitive measures imposed by President Obama in retaliation for Russia’s intervention in Ukraine and meddling in the 2016 election alarmed some State Department officials, who immediately began lobbying congressional leaders to quickly pass legislation to block the move, the sources said.
--------------------------
The following article highlights the Trump administrations intentions to return several compounds in Maryland to Russia, which were ordered to be vacated as part of the Obama administration's response to Russian interference in the 2016 election. 

Can anyone say quid pro quo?

https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/officials-us-mulls-return-of-russian-diplomatic-compounds/2017/06/01/4997970c-46f6-11e7-8de1-cec59a9bf4b1_story.html?utm_term=.4e7c119dbdc0 (https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/officials-us-mulls-return-of-russian-diplomatic-compounds/2017/06/01/4997970c-46f6-11e7-8de1-cec59a9bf4b1_story.html?utm_term=.4e7c119dbdc0)

Early last month, the Trump administration told the Russians that it would consider turning the properties back over to them if Moscow would lift its freeze, imposed in 2014 in retaliation for U.S. sanctions related to Ukraine, on construction of a new U.S. consulate on a certain parcel of land in St. Petersburg.

Two days later, the U.S. position changed. Secretary of State Rex Tillerson told Russian Foreign Minister Sergei Lavrov and Russian Ambassador Sergey Kislyak at a meeting in Washington that the United States had dropped any linkage between the compounds and the consulate, according to several people with knowledge of the exchanges.

---------------------------------
The following article highlights the sequence of events related to Jared Kushner's meeting with the chief executive of Putin allied bank Vnesheconombank in December 2016 during the transition period.  The bank has been under sanctions since 2014, and the meeting came at a time when Kushner was seeking funding for a troubled $1.8 billion piece of NY real estate. 

Can anyone say quid pro quo?

https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/explanations-for-kushners-meeting-with-head-of-kremlin-linked-bank-dont-match-up/2017/06/01/dd1bdbb0-460a-11e7-bcde-624ad94170ab_story.html?hpid=hp_hp-top-table-low_kushnerbank-7pm%3Ahomepage%2Fstory&utm_term=.69346fb949b7 (https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/explanations-for-kushners-meeting-with-head-of-kremlin-linked-bank-dont-match-up/2017/06/01/dd1bdbb0-460a-11e7-bcde-624ad94170ab_story.html?hpid=hp_hp-top-table-low_kushnerbank-7pm%3Ahomepage%2Fstory&utm_term=.69346fb949b7)

The discrepancy has thrust Vnesheconombank, known for advancing the strategic interests of Russian President Vladi­mir Putin and for its role in a past U.S. espionage case, into the center of the controversy enveloping the White House. And it has highlighted the role played by the bank’s 48-year-old chief executive, Sergey Gorkov, a graduate of the academy of the Federal Security Service, or FSB, the domestic intelligence arm of the former Soviet KGB, who was appointed by Putin to the post less than a year before his encounter with Kushner.

Either account of the meeting could bring complications for a White House undergoing intensifying scrutiny from a special counsel and multiple congressional committees.

A diplomatic meeting would have provided the bank, which has been under U.S. sanctions since 2014, a chance to press for rolling back the penalties even as the Obama administration was weighing additional retaliations against Moscow for Russia’s interference in the U.S. election.

A business meeting between an international development bank and a real estate executive, coming as Kushner’s company had been seeking financing for its troubled $1.8 billion purchase of an office building on Fifth Avenue in New York, could raise questions about whether Kushner’s personal financial interests were colliding with his impending role as a public official.
Title: Re: Russiagate
Post by: Buddy on June 02, 2017, 04:31:05 PM
One possible "setup" for next weeks possible Comey testimony:

1). Donnie invokes executive privalege for his conversations with Comey

2). Then.....Dept of justice seems to have two choices:  (a) ignore the executive privilege, stating that it does NOT apply since Donnie has effectively waived such privalege since Donnie has already tweeted about and spoken about those conversations in public, OR (b) go to court against Donnie's executive privalege claim FIRST.

Eventually Mueller is going to get fired....and Donnie is going to use the Comey testimony as the reason WHY Donnie will fire Mueller...whether he fires him before Comey testifies doesn't matter to us, but it might matter to Donnie.  Donnie does not want Comey to testify....and he does not want Mueller on the case.

So whether Mueller tries to ignore the executive privalege....or goes to court to get the executive privalege thrown out....Mueller will be toast.  Of course...Comey will EVENTUALLY testify.  Although it is looking less likely to me, that it will be next week.
Title: Re: Russiagate
Post by: SteveMDFP on June 02, 2017, 06:04:23 PM
I don't see how the Justice Department can go to court against a Trump declaration of Executive Privilege.  That would be the Executive Branch suing the Executive Branch. 

The folks with standing to sue would be the Congressional committees seeking the testimony.  But that would be Republican committees suing a Republican President in court.  That's only slightly less improbable than the R's voting for impeachment. 

Nothing substantial involving political actions will happen until Trump's approval sinks yet lower.
Title: Re: Russiagate
Post by: Buddy on June 02, 2017, 06:38:07 PM
Technically.....yes, it will be the Senate committe that would have to take Trump to court.  Remember...this is the Senate committee...and not the House.  Also remember...that Comey turned DOWN the initial request from the house.  Comey wanted two things:  (1) testimony had to be public, and (2) it had to be the senate.  He had good reasons for that...and they are now playing out.

If you are a Republican senator....it will be difficult for you to argue for executive privalege at LEAST on a limited basis for those things that Donnie has alredy talked about.  In addition...Comey is an EX employee, not current employee.  Not sure if there is any case law on that.  But the "optics" are not good.  I see the senate committee forcing Donnie's hand on this issue....supported and encouraged by Mueller.

We'll find out more in the coming days...that is for sure....
Title: Re: Russiagate
Post by: AbruptSLR on June 03, 2017, 12:54:07 AM
The Palmer Report parade of hits just keep on coming:

"Russian officials caught bragging about the blackmail material they claim to have on Donald Trump"

http://www.palmerreport.com/politics/brag-russian-blackmail/3244/ (http://www.palmerreport.com/politics/brag-russian-blackmail/3244/)

Extract: "… a key development in the Trump-Russia scandal went almost unnoticed. Russian government officials have been caught bragging about the blackmail material they claim to have on Trump and some of his top aides."
Title: Re: Russiagate
Post by: AbruptSLR on June 03, 2017, 02:52:34 AM
This makes the WH look like the Keystone Cops:

"Conflicting stories about Kushner's meeting with Russian banker"

http://www.cnn.com/2017/06/02/politics/jared-kushner-russian-banker-what-we-know/index.html (http://www.cnn.com/2017/06/02/politics/jared-kushner-russian-banker-what-we-know/index.html)

Extract: "The White House and the Russian bank have offered conflicting explanations for the meeting between Kushner and Sergey Gorkov, a Putin appointee, which has only fueled the intrigue around the senior Trump aide who was named as a point of focus in the FBI's criminal probe into Russian meddling in the 2016 election, according to US officials briefed on the investigation."

See also:

"After meeting with Jared Kushner, head of Russian bank flew straight to meet with Vladimir Putin"

http://www.palmerreport.com/politics/flew-kushner-putin/3245/ (http://www.palmerreport.com/politics/flew-kushner-putin/3245/)
Title: Re: Russiagate
Post by: AbruptSLR on June 03, 2017, 03:06:28 AM
I think that we are getting closer to the truth:

"Special Counsel Robert Mueller takes over Michael Flynn grand jury, also targets Jeff Sessions and Paul Manafort"

http://www.palmerreport.com/politics/mueller-flynn-sessions/3250/ (http://www.palmerreport.com/politics/mueller-flynn-sessions/3250/)

&

"Vladimir Putin begins covering his ass because he knows it’s all about to drop on Donald Trump’s head"

http://www.palmerreport.com/opinion/covering-putin-trump/3252/ (http://www.palmerreport.com/opinion/covering-putin-trump/3252/)
Title: Re: Russiagate
Post by: Buddy on June 04, 2017, 01:08:09 AM
Donnie taking a hit in the polls.   Gallup now has his approval rating at 37%....and disapproval at 57%.  Not yet his lowest to date... but definitely heading that direction.  Back at the end of March Donnie's approval rating was 35%.  Eventually he MAY need to get into the mid 20's.  This coming week isn't going to be anything for Donnie to brag about.🤡
Title: Re: Russiagate
Post by: Buddy on June 04, 2017, 03:27:15 AM
I really like The Palmer Report.....but they, along with others...are reporting that Donnie is somehow doing something nefarious by filing an extension for his individual tax return.  Many or most complex returns...where the individual has many partnership or S Corp interests....it is NORMAL to file an extension because the don't have all the K-1's in by April 15th.

Filing an extension may be one of the few things that Donnie does that IS honest.
Title: Re: Russiagate
Post by: AbruptSLR on June 04, 2017, 04:41:46 AM
The linked CNN  video describes how Putin grabbed, maintains and increases his autocratic power:

“CNN - The Most Powerful Man in the World (2017) ”

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yPbcgfw2Dzs (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yPbcgfw2Dzs)

Title: Re: Russiagate
Post by: pileus on June 04, 2017, 05:23:09 AM
Donnie taking a hit in the polls.   Gallup now has his approval rating at 37%....and disapproval at 57%.  Not yet his lowest to date... but definitely heading that direction.  Back at the end of March Donnie's approval rating was 35%.  Eventually he MAY need to get into the mid 20's.  This coming week isn't going to be anything for Donnie to brag about.🤡

With today's extreme partisan environment, state sponsored and conspiracy focused media such as Fox and Infowars, and a large portion of Republicans detached from reality and facts, it would be surprising to see Trump's approval drop under 30%.  As you note his approval has remained in a tight range, despite his incompetence and a rising tide of negative press and developments in Russiagate. It appears a portion of the US electorate would continue to support Trump even if he shot someone on 5th Avenue in NYC, or if Putin released embarrassing kompromat.  Even Dick Nixon maintained a floor of support up until his resignation, and partisanship and ignorance has become much sharper in the US since the 70s.

Title: Re: Russiagate
Post by: Buddy on June 04, 2017, 12:40:57 PM
It will be interesting to see what Donnie's ultimate low level will be .  And you are right...there was no FOX News in 1973/1974 to help brainwash Nixon's backers.  But Tricky Dicks approval ratings got down to 30 - 33% by August.  I have confidence in Donnie that he can do that...and go below that by 2018.  If you look at clips of Nixon...at least he could speak full sentences of English....he didn't grab vagina's...and I don't think the whole world was laughing at him and mocking him.

Countries like France and Canada are playing this as I would play this:  Go ahead and move to Canada/France....where critical thinking....and thinking in general is welcome.

Grab your popcorn and warm up you VCR....it will be a wild summer.  If I am a Democratic strategist...I want Donnie in office another 15 months or so, so that Donnie is still fresh in their minds as people vote in the midterm elections.

Title: Re: Russiagate
Post by: Hefaistos on June 04, 2017, 12:57:43 PM
Russiagate humor:

https://t.co/5z75ErIFFI
Title: Re: Russiagate
Post by: AbruptSLR on June 04, 2017, 08:35:20 PM
The top Democrat on the Senate Intelligence Committee, Mark Warner, discusses Russiagate in the linked video/article entitled: “Warner: 'Unthinkable' if Trump pressured Comey”:

https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/politics/warner-unthinkable-if-trump-pressured-comey/ar-BBBYxNq (https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/politics/warner-unthinkable-if-trump-pressured-comey/ar-BBBYxNq)

Title: Re: Russiagate
Post by: Archimid on June 05, 2017, 03:55:48 PM
Trump National Security Team Blindsided by NATO Speech

http://www.politico.com/magazine/story/2017/06/05/trump-nato-speech-national-security-team-215227 (http://www.politico.com/magazine/story/2017/06/05/trump-nato-speech-national-security-team-215227)

Quote
What’s not is that the president also disappointed—and surprised—his own top national security officials by failing to include the language reaffirming the so-called Article 5 provision in his speech. National security adviser H.R. McMaster, Defense Secretary James Mattis and Secretary of State Rex Tillerson all supported Trump doing so and had worked in the weeks leading up to the trip to make sure it was included in the speech, according to five sources familiar with the episode. They thought it was, and a White House aide even told The New York Times the day before the line was definitely included.
Title: Re: Russiagate
Post by: AbruptSLR on June 05, 2017, 04:57:45 PM
As impeachment is essentially a political process the linked article entitled: "Trump's poll numbers are in a very, very bad place"; is bad news for the Trump Administration:

http://www.cnn.com/2017/06/05/politics/donald-trump-poll-job-approval/ (http://www.cnn.com/2017/06/05/politics/donald-trump-poll-job-approval/)

Extract: "If history holds, Democrats would likely take back control of the House in 2018 -- given that they only need a 24-seat gain to do so. (One factor working against Democrats: The House is pretty well sorted out on partisan lines. Only 23 House Republicans currently represent districts Hillary Clinton carried last November.)"
Title: Re: Russiagate
Post by: AbruptSLR on June 06, 2017, 12:58:12 AM
The linked Palmer Report article entitled: "Report: Donald Trump’s latest meltdown has Republicans in Congress looking for the “off ramp”"; may, or may not, be wishful thinking:

http://www.palmerreport.com/politics/off-ramp-trump-congress/3324/ (http://www.palmerreport.com/politics/off-ramp-trump-congress/3324/)

Extract: "Political insider Claude Taylor, whose inside sources have often been proven correct, shared the following today: “A senior Cap Hill staffer I’ve known for 15 years just told me GOP Senators/House members are “starting to look for an off ramp for Trump.” (link). This stands out because the list of ways to make that happen is rather short. The 25th Amendment requires the majority of cabinet members, which seems unlikely at this time. That leaves Congress to its own devices."
Title: Re: Russiagate
Post by: AbruptSLR on June 06, 2017, 04:00:20 AM
he title speaks for itself: “Bombshell Intel Leak Reveals Russia Cyber Attack Targeted Voting Software and Election Officials”:

http://www.alternet.org/news-amp-politics/bombshell-intel-leak-reveals-russia-cyber-attack-targeted-voting-software-and (http://www.alternet.org/news-amp-politics/bombshell-intel-leak-reveals-russia-cyber-attack-targeted-voting-software-and)

Extract: “According to a report at The Intercept, an internal document at the NSA shows that Russian military intelligence “executed a cyberattack on at least one U.S. voting software supplier and sent spear-phishing emails to more than 100 local election officials just days before last November’s presidential election.” ”
Title: Re: Russiagate
Post by: Buddy on June 06, 2017, 12:20:15 PM
Four months in....and someone on CNN is calling Trump a POS.  I have to admit...I didn't see that one coming. :o

Don't get over confident....we have a long ways to go, and Donnie will do ANYTHING to stay in office.  If he is booted out of office they will be financially ruined.  So he is definitely ruined.  Also...remember that there are likely many folks in Congress that have their testicles on the line here as well.

I expect polls to continue on a slow but jagged downward drift.  Donnie will be using his media sources as best as he can in coming months in order to keep polls from deteriorating further:  FOX, Breitbart, Enquirer, etc.  And Donnie's crack team of liars les by Huckabee and Spicey will be at their outrageous best.

Is Huckabee a piece of work or what?  You wonder why the percentage of Christians in the US has been dropping....you have to look no further than people like Huckabee.  Does anyone REALLY think you can be a true Christian AND a liar 24 x 7 x 365 like Huckabee or Spicey or any number of fake Christians in Congress?  They avoid the truth like the plague.  I'm waiting for the day they get called out in a press briefing for their hypocracy of Christianity and lying.

Mankind has such a very long way to go....and it starts with looking for the truth, and calling out those that lie.




Title: Re: Russiagate
Post by: AbruptSLR on June 06, 2017, 04:47:40 PM
The linked Palmer Report op/ed is entitled: "Reality Winner is an Air Force veteran, she speaks four languages, and her leak makes her a hero"

http://www.palmerreport.com/opinion/hero-reality-winner/3332/ (http://www.palmerreport.com/opinion/hero-reality-winner/3332/)

Extract: "Now that the Donald Trump administration has arrested government contractor Reality Winner for leaking NSA intel showing just how thoroughly Russia hacked the election in Trump’s favor, Americans have become instantly fixated with the fact that her name is in fact Reality Winner. After all, she may have just taken down an illegitimate U.S. President who’s best known as a reality show host. But once you get past that, the only possible conclusion is that she’s an American hero and Trump is indeed a traitor."
Title: Re: Russiagate
Post by: AbruptSLR on June 06, 2017, 05:00:20 PM
The linked Intercept article provides details of the NSA leak:

"Top-secret NSA Report Details Russian Hacking Effort Days Before 2016 Election"

https://theintercept.com/2017/06/05/top-secret-nsa-report-details-russian-hacking-effort-days-before-2016-election/ (https://theintercept.com/2017/06/05/top-secret-nsa-report-details-russian-hacking-effort-days-before-2016-election/)

Extract: "The report indicates that Russian hacking may have penetrated further into U.S. voting systems than was previously understood. It states unequivocally in its summary statement that it was Russian military intelligence, specifically the Russian General Staff Main Intelligence Directorate, or GRU, that conducted the cyber attacks described in the document:
Russian General Staff Main Intelligence Directorate actors … executed cyber espionage operations against a named U.S. company in August 2016, evidently to obtain information on elections-related software and hardware solutions. … The actors likely used data obtained from that operation to … launch a voter registration-themed spear-phishing campaign targeting U.S. local government organizations.

This NSA summary judgment is sharply at odds with Russian President Vladimir Putin’s denial last week that Russia had interfered in foreign elections: “We never engaged in that on a state level, and have no intention of doing so.” Putin, who had previously issued blanket denials that any such Russian meddling occurred, for the first time floated the possibility that freelance Russian hackers with “patriotic leanings” may have been responsible. The NSA report, on the contrary, displays no doubt that the cyber assault was carried out by the GRU."

Edit, see also:

http://www.businessinsider.com/nsa-leaker-arrested-russia-document-trump-national-security-2017-6 (http://www.businessinsider.com/nsa-leaker-arrested-russia-document-trump-national-security-2017-6)

Title: Re: Russiagate
Post by: Archimid on June 06, 2017, 05:10:06 PM
Putin is now dictating the narrative. Whatever he says must be acknowledged as truth by Trump and his accomplices.
Title: Re: Russiagate
Post by: AbruptSLR on June 06, 2017, 05:23:47 PM
More information on an investigation on Kushner from the Palmer Report:

"Report: DOJ’s International Criminal Division targets Jared Kushner in Trump-Russia scandal"

http://www.palmerreport.com/politics/doj-kushner-criminal/3338/ (http://www.palmerreport.com/politics/doj-kushner-criminal/3338/)

Extract: "“A source in DOJ confirms that Jared Kushner is being interviewed by AG’s International Criminal Division,” political insider Claude Taylor has revealed (link). Best we can tell, that’s an informal reference to the Department of Justice Criminal Division’s Office of International Affairs."
Title: Re: Russiagate
Post by: AbruptSLR on June 06, 2017, 05:57:04 PM
The linked Slate article gives a 40% chance of Trump leaving office before the end of his term:

"Today’s Impeach-O-Meter: Three Things Happened to Trump Today That Were Bad"

http://www.slate.com/blogs/the_slatest/2017/06/05/trump_impeachment_chances_tri_pronged_bad_news_edition.html (http://www.slate.com/blogs/the_slatest/2017/06/05/trump_impeachment_chances_tri_pronged_bad_news_edition.html)
Title: Re: Russiagate
Post by: AbruptSLR on June 06, 2017, 06:31:17 PM
Trump is planning to continue to cozy-up to Putin despite Russiagate:

"Tillerson: Trump wants me to fix US-Russia relations"

http://www.cnn.com/2017/06/06/politics/tillerson-us-russia-relationship/ (http://www.cnn.com/2017/06/06/politics/tillerson-us-russia-relationship/)
Title: Re: Russiagate
Post by: magnamentis on June 06, 2017, 07:00:22 PM
Mankind has such a very long way to go....and it starts with looking for the truth, and calling out those that lie.

should be repeated all over the place on a daily basis and be amended with a statement about envy LOL Envy is the root of all evel, even though a bit bold and short, true enough nevertheless.
Title: Re: Russiagate
Post by: AbruptSLR on June 07, 2017, 08:30:49 PM
I guess that Trump likes to obstruct justice by cherry picking what is to be investigated:

"James Comey testimony: Trump asked me to let Flynn investigation go"

http://www.cnn.com/2017/06/07/politics/james-comey-testimony-released/index.html (http://www.cnn.com/2017/06/07/politics/james-comey-testimony-released/index.html)

Extract: "… according to a copy of his opening remarks posted online.

"He then said, 'I hope you can see your way clear to letting this go, to letting Flynn go. He is a good guy. I hope you can let this go,'" Comey said in remarks posted on the website of the Senate intelligence committee. "I replied only that 'he is a good guy.' (In fact, I had a positive experience dealing with Mike Flynn when he was a colleague as Director of the Defense Intelligence Agency at the beginning of my term at FBI.) I did not say I would 'let this go.'""
Title: Re: Russiagate
Post by: TerryM on June 07, 2017, 09:40:06 PM
"I've never felt pressured to do anything illegal."
"I've never been directed to do anything illegal."


Next witness please


[size=inherit]"In my time of service in interacting with the President of the United States, or anybody in his administration, I have never been pressured, I have never felt pressure to intervene or interfere in any way with shaping intelligence in a political way or in relationship to an ongoing investigation"[/size][/font]
[size=inherit][/size]


First Rogers, then Coats.


We are investigating the Russian's aren't we?
Title: Re: Russiagate
Post by: Archimid on June 07, 2017, 10:38:01 PM
Full text: James Comey statement to Senate intelligence committee on Trump contact

http://www.politico.com/story/2017/06/07/james-comey-trump-russia-testimony-2017-239253 (http://www.politico.com/story/2017/06/07/james-comey-trump-russia-testimony-2017-239253)


Juicy bits:

Quote
A few moments later, the President said, “I need loyalty, I expect loyalty.” I didn’t move, speak, or change my facial expression in any way during the awkward silence that followed. We simply looked at each other in silence. The conversation then moved on, but he returned to the subject near the end of our dinner.

Quote
The President then returned to the topic of Mike Flynn, saying, “He is a good guy and has been through a lot.” He repeated that Flynn hadn’t done anything wrong on his calls with the Russians, but had misled the Vice President. He then said, “I hope you can see your way clear to letting this go, to letting Flynn go. He is a good guy. I hope you can let this go.”

I imagine that in his mind , Trump believed Comey was deep inside another nationalist racist because Comey helped him win the elections. So he tried to make private veiled conversation to see if they could come to underground terms. He didn't succeed so he fired him.

Trump needs someone willing to look the other way and I bet he'll get it.
Title: Re: Russiagate
Post by: SteveMDFP on June 08, 2017, 03:21:41 AM
"I've never felt pressured to do anything illegal."
"I've never been directed to do anything illegal."


Next witness please


[size=inherit]"In my time of service in interacting with the President of the United States, or anybody in his administration, I have never been pressured, I have never felt pressure to intervene or interfere in any way with shaping intelligence in a political way or in relationship to an ongoing investigation"[/size][/font]
[size=inherit][/size]


First Rogers, then Coats.


We are investigating the Russian's aren't we?

Public statements by politicians and administration officials have to be parsed *very* carefully.  The Justice Department enjoys great discretion in what cases to investigate, and what investigations to drop.  Trump asked for the Flynn investigation to be dropped.  That's asking Justice to exercise its legal discretion; it wouldn't be illegal for Justice to comply.
However, Trump asking for that is still obstruction of justice, a crime.

The truth of these statements does not imply that Trump is innocent of the crimes he's suspected of committing.
Title: Re: Russiagate
Post by: Buddy on June 08, 2017, 01:15:45 PM
You can tell that Donnie and his klan understand that he has to keep his poll numbers out of the toilet.  The have been running a couple of different ads:  One, to hammer away at Comey....and another to tell everyone how wonderful Donnie has been.

Keep in mind a couple of things:  Mueller's investigation is going to be MUCH...MUCH more involved than Watergate.  Money laundering, international banking....this is going  to take a long time.  Donnie will have to get the investigation shut down in order to survive.  And Donnie has his political and economic well being at stake.

Strap in for another year + political rugby.
Title: Re: Russiagate
Post by: Buddy on June 08, 2017, 10:13:36 PM
Two people I now expect to be called to testify:  Jeff Sessions and Mike Pence.  Executive privalege will likely be invoked...so I don't expect them to testify.  But they will be asked.  Perception is everything.
Title: Re: Russiagate
Post by: TerryM on June 09, 2017, 12:53:29 AM
Two people I now expect to be called to testify:  Jeff Sessions and Mike Pence.  Executive privalege will likely be invoked...so I don't expect them to testify.  But they will be asked.  Perception is everything.
That is precisely the root of the problem. Perception after a long campaign is what brought Trump to power. Perception after a long media campaign may take his power away.


The perception part of this equation should have ended with the election. What comes next, until the next election, needs to be based on facts. It's not whether Trump is perceived as having cheated to get elected, it's about whether Trump actually cheated to get elected.


If Trump did cheat, and if that can be proven, then he should be removed from office, even though this may cost Democrats dearly in the next election cycle.
If Trump is perceived as having cheated, and this perception brings him down before the next election, then this is an abrogation of his democratic victory at the polls. It makes a mockery of the democratic process.


Don't throw out the baby with the bathwater. America's flawed democracy is more important than Trump's flawed presidency.


Democrats claimed Trump was under investigation by the FBI, Trump claimed he had been told by Comey that he was not under investigation. Comey testified that Trump was not under investigation and that he told him so on three occasions.
My perception is that in this instance Trump told the truth and the Democrats were at best "mistaken".


Comey was instructed by his boss not to use the words "under investigation" when referring to the FBI investigation of the Clinton campaign. He complied, but claims he felt "very uneasy" when calling an "investigation" a "matter". If what he testified to is true then he was being pressured, but not from the Trump forces.


How the media spins these apparent facts to Trump's disadvantage is beyond my perception.


Terry
Title: Re: Russiagate
Post by: Archimid on June 09, 2017, 02:10:13 AM
Comey's testimony was devastating. He was very clear that the President made veiled requests to stop the investigation on Quinn. The dinner was even more disturbing. The president required personal loyalty from the Director of the FBI. The FBI director feared being alone with the president because he kept asking him stop an ongoing investigation.

The investigation was on the National Security Advisor appointed by Trump, who lied to the vice president about contacts with Russians. The same person who took money from Turkey.

I'm starting to reach the conclusion that the damage is done. Trump will keep implementing the Russia's/Confederate America plan for the US. Republicans do not have the balls to stop him. Trump will keep eliminating the US foreign influence and he will keep the US as addicted to foreign oil as he possibly can.
Title: Re: Russiagate
Post by: AbruptSLR on June 09, 2017, 03:09:39 AM
The linked Palmer Report article presents logic for impeaching Pence if Trump is impeached:

“Impeachment double dip? James Comey implicates Mike Pence during his testimony”.

http://www.palmerreport.com/politics/pence-impeachment-comey/3377/ (http://www.palmerreport.com/politics/pence-impeachment-comey/3377/)

Extract: “Amid a series of bombshells which Comey laid out about Trump, it went barely noticed that Comey also made clear Mike Pence knew about the concerns of Michael Flynn having been compromised the entire time. That means Pence lied to the American public when he insisted that he thought Flynn was clean. It also means that the entire excuse for firing Flynn, which was that he misled Pence about Russia, is out the window.”
Title: Re: Russiagate
Post by: pileus on June 09, 2017, 03:53:19 AM
It remains difficult to see this Republican Senate convicting an impeached Trump.  However if Mueller presents a case that lays out collusion and treason that leads to Trump's conviction, the idea of a president Pence is very disconcerting.  Theocrat, backwards on social issues, very ineffective as executive of Indiana, and most of all he lies with grace and smoothness without batting an eye.  But more than capable of carrying out the GOP agenda.  The notion of a president Ryan is also nauseating.
Title: Re: Russiagate
Post by: Buddy on June 09, 2017, 05:01:11 AM
There are likely going to be many things that Donnie may regret when all is said and done.  One item that may be near the top of his list.....will be Donnie insinuating that he may have taped his conversations with Jim Comey.

In "poker speak"......his hand was called by Comey today.  Now.....Donnie is going to be FORCED to show his hand relative to whether or not Donnie recorded his conversations with Comey.  The Senate will force him to either produce the tapes....or tell them why he insinuated that he had recorded them.

Given Donnie's history of taping his employees at work.....I suspect that Donnie has some tapes.  I also suspect that they may be at the bottom of a trash heap somewhere right now.  What would be very interesting.....is if someone outside the family knows that there are tapes.

Tick.....tick.....tick.....tick

Boy......this is going to make a great movie in a couple of years....
Title: Re: Russiagate
Post by: Csnavywx on June 09, 2017, 07:05:35 AM
I'd be willing to stake out a position counter to the opinion running in this thread. In fact, I'd put real money on it. No impeachment. Especially after today's testimony. It doesn't clear the bar. As much as some of us might have wanted it to -- it just doesn't.

Sen. Risch and Burr asked the questions and Comey's answers to them should pretty much end that. Mueller will have the final say on all that, but for those wishing for an immediate move for Trump's impeachment, Comey's testimony was a big setback.

In addition to the loyalty requests by Trump, I found the disclosure on Loretta Lynch's pressure in favor of Clinton and Comey's admission that he leaked the memos himself to try and get a special counsel appointed pretty amazing.

Sen. Angus King's statement and Comey's confirmation of Russia's intentions were pretty good highlights too.
Title: Re: Russiagate
Post by: Csnavywx on June 09, 2017, 07:21:59 AM
The linked Slate article gives a 40% chance of Trump leaving office before the end of his term:

"Today’s Impeach-O-Meter: Three Things Happened to Trump Today That Were Bad"

http://www.slate.com/blogs/the_slatest/2017/06/05/trump_impeachment_chances_tri_pronged_bad_news_edition.html (http://www.slate.com/blogs/the_slatest/2017/06/05/trump_impeachment_chances_tri_pronged_bad_news_edition.html)

It's obviously a fun, speculative graph. Odds-makers are much lower and lower after Comey's testimony today, the exact opposite of the author's changes.

Methinks there's some wishcasting going on.
Title: Re: Russiagate
Post by: Buddy on June 09, 2017, 05:06:18 PM
No wishcasting.  Obstruction of justice is jaywalking compared to what is coming down the road.  Any light that Donnie sees is not the end of the tunnel....it is several trains lined up and waiting to run him over.
Title: Re: Russiagate
Post by: Buddy on June 09, 2017, 05:20:03 PM
Two outcomes from yesterday that are VERY bad for Donnie:

1). They are comparing Comey to Trump....and Donnie's lies are on video.

2). More and more people are asking...."what is it that Russia has on Donnie?"
Title: Re: Russiagate
Post by: AbruptSLR on June 09, 2017, 05:24:25 PM
It's obviously a fun, speculative graph. Odds-makers are much lower and lower after Comey's testimony today, the exact opposite of the author's changes.

Methinks there's some wishcasting going on.

The conservatives in the UK just learned a lesson in public backlash; which Trump & the GOP will likely learn in 2018 (any impeachment of Trump would likely be after 2018):

"Theresa May Promises 'Certainty' After Queen Approves Plan To Form Government"

http://www.npr.org/sections/thetwo-way/2017/06/09/532189115/in-defeat-for-theresa-may-conservatives-lose-majority-in-u-k-parliament (http://www.npr.org/sections/thetwo-way/2017/06/09/532189115/in-defeat-for-theresa-may-conservatives-lose-majority-in-u-k-parliament)

Extract: ""The prime minister called the election because she wanted a mandate," Corbyn said. "Well the mandate she's got is lost Conservative seats, lost votes, lost support and lost confidence. I would've thought that's enough to go, actually. And make way for a government that will be truly representative of all of the people of this country.""
Title: Re: Russiagate
Post by: Csnavywx on June 09, 2017, 06:30:35 PM
Well of course. Corbyn is a populist candidate on the left/far-left The Dems can capitalize on this by running *drumroll* populist candidates. If the Dems run watered-down corporatists, then the only reason they'll gain seats is due to strategic voting. Corbyn had a groundswell of grassroots populist support to help him along. Strategic voting alone isn't going to carry Democrats into a majority in either house in 2018, especially in the disadvantaged position they have in the Senate next cycle.
Title: Re: Russiagate
Post by: Archimid on June 09, 2017, 06:37:20 PM
Donald Trump's new FBI director pick has Russian ties of his own

https://www.usatoday.com/story/opinion/2017/06/08/trump-new-fbi-director-chris-wray-russian-ties-rosneft-gazprom-column/102603214/ (https://www.usatoday.com/story/opinion/2017/06/08/trump-new-fbi-director-chris-wray-russian-ties-rosneft-gazprom-column/102603214/)
 
Quote
On paper, Christopher Wray appears to be an excellent choice to serve as the next FBI director. He has "impeccable" academic credentials (Yale law school) and has had a decades-long distinguished career as a federal prosecutor and high-level official in the Department of Justice. As the criminal defense lawyer for New Jersey Gov. Chris Christie during the “Bridgegate” investigation, he did raise some eyebrows when it was learned that one of Christie’s “missing” cellphones mysteriously ended up in Wray’s possession, but this is unlikely to derail Wray’s confirmation.

The most troubling issue that Wray may face is the fact that his law firm — King & Spalding — represents Rosneft and Gazprom, two of Russia’s largest state-controlled oil companies.

Nothing to see here, mere coincidence right?
Title: Re: Russiagate
Post by: Csnavywx on June 09, 2017, 06:38:35 PM
No wishcasting.  Obstruction of justice is jaywalking compared to what is coming down the road.  Any light that Donnie sees is not the end of the tunnel....it is several trains lined up and waiting to run him over.

We've been hearing these statements from you (and many, many others) for months now. If Mueller's investigation comes back negative, will you finally change your mind?

By the way -- zero, and I mean zero of the Senators got any red meat on Trump being involved in collusion with the Russians directly. Quite the contrary. Might there be involvement by a satellite? Maybe. But Flynn is out now. Comey pretty much stated that Flynn isn't even a center-piece of the investigation. There's no chance Flynn testifies against Trump now, because there isn't anything there. As Chris Matthews said yesterday "there's no there there".

The most damaging things yesterday were Comey calling out the president for lying and the request for loyalty. Bad, but not impeachable.
Title: Re: Russiagate
Post by: Csnavywx on June 09, 2017, 06:45:55 PM
Donald Trump's new FBI director pick has Russian ties of his own

https://www.usatoday.com/story/opinion/2017/06/08/trump-new-fbi-director-chris-wray-russian-ties-rosneft-gazprom-column/102603214/ (https://www.usatoday.com/story/opinion/2017/06/08/trump-new-fbi-director-chris-wray-russian-ties-rosneft-gazprom-column/102603214/)
 
Quote
On paper, Christopher Wray appears to be an excellent choice to serve as the next FBI director. He has "impeccable" academic credentials (Yale law school) and has had a decades-long distinguished career as a federal prosecutor and high-level official in the Department of Justice. As the criminal defense lawyer for New Jersey Gov. Chris Christie during the “Bridgegate” investigation, he did raise some eyebrows when it was learned that one of Christie’s “missing” cellphones mysteriously ended up in Wray’s possession, but this is unlikely to derail Wray’s confirmation.

The most troubling issue that Wray may face is the fact that his law firm — King & Spalding — represents Rosneft and Gazprom, two of Russia’s largest state-controlled oil companies.

Nothing to see here, mere coincidence right?

Wray has bi-partisan support and a good reputation. He's getting confirmed -- hands down.
Title: Re: Russiagate
Post by: Csnavywx on June 09, 2017, 06:52:13 PM
Yes, I'm playing devil's advocate in here. The reason is that I see worrying signs of a lack of self-questioning and a definite lack of impartiality towards the evidence. Lest we convince ourselves that we're absolutely right on this issue. Lots of opinion pieces don't make something true.

I know ASLR takes pride in poking holes in the reticent scientist case as it concerns the climate sensitivity issue and as a result, the facts and the resultant picture they paint becomes more clear. Questioning, when done right, can be very useful.
Title: Re: Russiagate
Post by: Archimid on June 09, 2017, 06:52:35 PM
I wouldn't doubt it. But that won't change the fact that Donald Trump is running the foreign policy (NATO, UN, G7 disruption) and national policy (climate change denial) recommended to him by these "compromised" parties.

The GOP is also compromised and the few that aren't simply don't have the leverage to stop this.
Title: Re: Russiagate
Post by: Buddy on June 09, 2017, 08:38:58 PM
I am more than happy to go along with the outcome of Mueller's investigation.  I am sure he will turn up more than the obvious I already can see. 
Title: Re: Russiagate
Post by: SteveMDFP on June 09, 2017, 09:02:57 PM

By the way -- zero, and I mean zero of the Senators got any red meat on Trump being involved in collusion with the Russians directly. Quite the contrary. Might there be involvement by a satellite? Maybe. But Flynn is out now. Comey pretty much stated that Flynn isn't even a center-piece of the investigation. There's no chance Flynn testifies against Trump now, because there isn't anything there.

I think this is a misinterpretation of the information at hand.  Comey specifically gave *public* testimony.  He hasn't yet testified in closed session of the Intelligence Committee.  That is, he could not at this point have revealed *any* classified information. 

We know from the Reality Winner indictment that there's more real meat (classified meat) about Russian meddling in the election.  Any facts about collusion with Russian efforts is surely classified, and Comey was prohibited about even so much as hinting at the existence of any classified information in this testimony. 

What we heard is almost certainly a small fraction of the relevant facts.
Title: Re: Russiagate
Post by: AbruptSLR on June 09, 2017, 11:12:50 PM
Yes, I'm playing devil's advocate in here. The reason is that I see worrying signs of a lack of self-questioning and a definite lack of impartiality towards the evidence. Lest we convince ourselves that we're absolutely right on this issue. Lots of opinion pieces don't make something true.

I know ASLR takes pride in poking holes in the reticent scientist case as it concerns the climate sensitivity issue and as a result, the facts and the resultant picture they paint becomes more clear. Questioning, when done right, can be very useful.

I always appreciate a good devil's advocate; but from my seat I only see our US, & Global, political systems becoming more polarized.  Which in my opinion increases the probability that the world will follow a BAU (green or brown) pathway for several decades to come; which will likely make losers of us all.
Title: Re: Russiagate
Post by: AbruptSLR on June 09, 2017, 11:44:21 PM
Here is an image or Trump's approval ratings issued today by FiveThirtyEight:

https://projects.fivethirtyeight.com/trump-approval-ratings/?ex_cid=rrpromo
Title: Re: Russiagate
Post by: Csnavywx on June 10, 2017, 02:26:16 AM
Yes, I'm playing devil's advocate in here. The reason is that I see worrying signs of a lack of self-questioning and a definite lack of impartiality towards the evidence. Lest we convince ourselves that we're absolutely right on this issue. Lots of opinion pieces don't make something true.

I know ASLR takes pride in poking holes in the reticent scientist case as it concerns the climate sensitivity issue and as a result, the facts and the resultant picture they paint becomes more clear. Questioning, when done right, can be very useful.

I always appreciate a good devil's advocate; but from my seat I only see our US, & Global, political systems becoming more polarized.  Which in my opinion increases the probability that the world will follow a BAU (green or brown) pathway for several decades to come; which will likely make losers of us all.

You and I are probably more aligned on this point than we both realize.

As to the point, the UK result last night was further proof in the pudding, as it were. Whereas the center-left was the first to collapse in Europe, it now appears that the center-right is increasingly getting pinched as well, leaving increasingly large migrations of voting blocs moving to the far-left and far-right. This phenomenon is increasingly prevalent across virtually all OECD countries. These two groups have something in common, however. They're deeply populist and (generally) skeptical of globalization, favoring localization and nation-state sovereignty over the "futuristic" vision of a global community.

It's hard to see how global emission schemes and scenarios ultimately survive contact with that kind of geopolitical environment. Trump could be just the start, really.
Title: Re: Russiagate
Post by: pileus on June 10, 2017, 02:34:37 AM
Special Counsel Mueller is building a crack team.  Note the backgrounds and speciality areas of these individuals.  Criminal law.  Corporate malfeasance.  Organized crime.  Some of you here playing the "nothing to see here" card might be in for a surprise at the end of this process, or perhaps disappointment depending on your affections for certain world views and political figures.

Mueller Enlists Top Criminal Law Expert for Russia Probe

http://www.nationallawjournal.com/id=1202789177543/Mueller-Enlists-Top-Criminal-Law-Expert-for-Russia-Probe?cmp=share_twitter&slreturn=20170509201931 (http://www.nationallawjournal.com/id=1202789177543/Mueller-Enlists-Top-Criminal-Law-Expert-for-Russia-Probe?cmp=share_twitter&slreturn=20170509201931)

Special counsel Robert Mueller III has recruited the Justice Department’s top criminal law expert to help with his investigation of ties between the Trump presidential campaign and Russian officials.

Deputy solicitor general Michael Dreeben, who has argued more than 100 cases before the U.S. Supreme Court and oversees the Justice Department’s criminal appellate docket, will be assisting Mueller on a part-time basis, according to sources familiar with the arrangement.

While helping Mueller, Dreeben will continue in his role in the solicitor general’s office, with other lawyers in the office pitching in to help him with upcoming criminal cases.

The move signals that Mueller is seeking advice on the complexities that have arisen already in the investigations, including what constitutes obstruction of justice.

----------------------

The Man Investigating Donald Trump’s Russia Connections Is Assembling a Murderer’s Row of Prosecutors

http://www.gq.com/story/robert-mueller-russia-investigation-team (http://www.gq.com/story/robert-mueller-russia-investigation-team)

But Mueller’s biggest hire to date was [Andrew] Weissmann, who is taking a leave from his current post leading the Justice Department’s criminal fraud section. The two men have a long history together at the FBI, where Weissmann served as both the bureau’s general counsel from 2011 to 2013 and as Mueller’s special counsel in 2005.

Weissmann’s prosecution record includes overseeing the investigations into more than 30 people while running the Enron Task Force, including CEOs Kenneth Lay and Jeffrey Skilling. And while working in the U.S. attorney’s office in the eastern district of New York, he tried more than 25 cases involving members of the Genovese, Colombo and Gambino crime families.
Title: Re: Russiagate
Post by: Archimid on June 10, 2017, 02:41:25 AM
That level of scrutiny I can live with. If Mueller clears the Trump team of wrong doing, I will stand corrected. However, I find that highly unlikely.
Title: Re: Russiagate
Post by: AbruptSLR on June 10, 2017, 12:32:20 PM
You and I are probably more aligned on this point than we both realize.

As to the point, the UK result last night was further proof in the pudding, as it were. Whereas the center-left was the first to collapse in Europe, it now appears that the center-right is increasingly getting pinched as well, leaving increasingly large migrations of voting blocs moving to the far-left and far-right. This phenomenon is increasingly prevalent across virtually all OECD countries. These two groups have something in common, however. They're deeply populist and (generally) skeptical of globalization, favoring localization and nation-state sovereignty over the "futuristic" vision of a global community.

It's hard to see how global emission schemes and scenarios ultimately survive contact with that kind of geopolitical environment. Trump could be just the start, really.

To me, the bottom line is protecting the future of our young people; who increasingly understand that the worldwide alt-right movement (for which Trump and Putin are poster children) represents older people clinging desperately to an unsustainable way of life.  Thus, the first linked Alternet article discusses how increasingly the youth vote is striking back against the alt-right; while the second linked article discusses how many GOP lawmakers are freaking out about the risks of going down with Trump's alt-right ship (which increases the prospect of pressure for Trump to resign).

"Brit Election Adds to Striking Global Trend in the U.S., France and Holland For Young People to Vote More Progressive, Often Embracing Socialism"

http://www.alternet.org/news-amp-politics/many-western-countries-young-people-are-moving-left (http://www.alternet.org/news-amp-politics/many-western-countries-young-people-are-moving-left)

Extract: "Labour Party candidates won 63 percent of young voters in the UK election."

See also:
"Secret Recording Reveals GOP Lawmaker Freaking out About 'Going Down with the Ship' for Trump"

http://www.alternet.org/news-amp-politics/secret-recording-reveals-gop-lawmaker-freaking-out-about-going-down-ship-trump (http://www.alternet.org/news-amp-politics/secret-recording-reveals-gop-lawmaker-freaking-out-about-going-down-ship-trump)

Title: Re: Russiagate
Post by: Csnavywx on June 10, 2017, 02:20:44 PM
You and I are probably more aligned on this point than we both realize.

As to the point, the UK result last night was further proof in the pudding, as it were. Whereas the center-left was the first to collapse in Europe, it now appears that the center-right is increasingly getting pinched as well, leaving increasingly large migrations of voting blocs moving to the far-left and far-right. This phenomenon is increasingly prevalent across virtually all OECD countries. These two groups have something in common, however. They're deeply populist and (generally) skeptical of globalization, favoring localization and nation-state sovereignty over the "futuristic" vision of a global community.

It's hard to see how global emission schemes and scenarios ultimately survive contact with that kind of geopolitical environment. Trump could be just the start, really.

To me, the bottom line is protecting the future of our young people; who increasingly understand that the worldwide alt-right movement (for which Trump and Putin are poster children) represents older people clinging desperately to an unsustainable way of life.  Thus, the first linked Alternet article discusses how increasingly the youth vote is striking back against the alt-right; while the second linked article discusses how many GOP lawmakers are freaking out about the risks of going down with Trump's alt-right ship (which increases the prospect of pressure for Trump to resign).

"Brit Election Adds to Striking Global Trend in the U.S., France and Holland For Young People to Vote More Progressive, Often Embracing Socialism"

http://www.alternet.org/news-amp-politics/many-western-countries-young-people-are-moving-left (http://www.alternet.org/news-amp-politics/many-western-countries-young-people-are-moving-left)

Extract: "Labour Party candidates won 63 percent of young voters in the UK election."

See also:
"Secret Recording Reveals GOP Lawmaker Freaking out About 'Going Down with the Ship' for Trump"

http://www.alternet.org/news-amp-politics/secret-recording-reveals-gop-lawmaker-freaking-out-about-going-down-ship-trump (http://www.alternet.org/news-amp-politics/secret-recording-reveals-gop-lawmaker-freaking-out-about-going-down-ship-trump)

It also depends on the country. In some European countries, the youth are heading towards the far right. France, Sweden, Austria and Greece to name a few. In general, countries where either youth unemployment is much higher now than the structural historical average or the refugee crisis has hit home.

Add some climate refugees, increasing terrorism and gradually increasing negative economic pressure from climate change and that's a hostile mix.

There is some hope from the trends you mention above, but that voting bloc has to be presented with candidates that they can rally behind.
Title: Re: Russiagate
Post by: pileus on June 10, 2017, 05:14:21 PM
As Special Counsel Mueller builds his team noted above, here we see Trump continuing to take interesting steps with respect to defending himself in the Russia investigation.

Trump’s lawyer in Russia probe has clients with Kremlin ties

https://www.washingtonpost.com/amphtml/investigations/trumps-lawyer-in-russia-probe-has-clients-with-kremlin-ties/2017/06/09/5dba9518-4d4a-11e7-a186-60c031eab644_story.html (https://www.washingtonpost.com/amphtml/investigations/trumps-lawyer-in-russia-probe-has-clients-with-kremlin-ties/2017/06/09/5dba9518-4d4a-11e7-a186-60c031eab644_story.html)

The hard-charging New York lawyer President Trump chose to represent him in the Russia investigation has prominent clients with ties to the Kremlin, a striking pick for a president trying to escape the persistent cloud that has trailed his administration.

Marc E. Kasowitz’s clients include Oleg Deripaska, a Russian oligarch who is close to President Vladimir Putin and has done business with Trump’s former campaign manager. Kasowitz also represents Sberbank, Russia’s largest state-owned bank, U.S. court records show.
----
As Kasowitz takes on his most high-stakes work for Trump yet, the lawyer’s Russian clients could cause complications.

“If the behavior of a Russian client of the firm or its relationship with Trump becomes an issue in the investigation, a conflict could arise,” said Stephen Gillers of New York University Law School, an expert on legal ethics.

Deripaska has said congressional investigators have contacted his attorneys seeking information about his business dealings with Paul Manafort, a Trump campaign manager during the presidential campaign. More than a decade ago, Deripaska invested in a fund that Manafort set up in the Cayman Islands that bought assets primarily in Ukraine.
Title: Re: Russiagate
Post by: pileus on June 10, 2017, 06:12:56 PM
Eric Posner from University of Chicago Law presents a two part opinion on the question of obstruction of justice.  A good read for the possible scenarios, nuances, and arguments pro and con.

http://ericposner.com/can-the-president-commit-the-crime-of-obstruction-of-justice/ (http://ericposner.com/can-the-president-commit-the-crime-of-obstruction-of-justice/)

http://ericposner.com/can-the-president-commit-the-crime-of-obstruction-ii/ (http://ericposner.com/can-the-president-commit-the-crime-of-obstruction-ii/)
Title: Re: Russiagate
Post by: AbruptSLR on June 10, 2017, 06:39:06 PM
The Senate Judiciary Committee may soon start issuing subpoenas related to Trump's obstruction of justice charges:

“Feinstein calls for investigation of 'all matters related to obstruction of justice'”

http://www.cnn.com/2017/06/10/politics/dianne-feinstein-chuck-grassley-judiciary-committee-investigation/index.html (http://www.cnn.com/2017/06/10/politics/dianne-feinstein-chuck-grassley-judiciary-committee-investigation/index.html)

Extract: “"It is my strong recommendation that the Judiciary Committee investigate all issues that raise a question of obstruction of justice," the California Democrat wrote in a letter to Senate Judiciary Chairman Chuck Grassley on Friday. "These issues should be developed by our legal staff, presented to us, and be subject to full committee hearings."

"It is my strong recommendation that the Judiciary Committee investigate all issues that raise a question of obstruction of justice," the California Democrat wrote in a letter to Senate Judiciary Chairman Chuck Grassley on Friday. "These issues should be developed by our legal staff, presented to us, and be subject to full committee hearings."

"As I have mentioned to you directly, I am supportive of issuing subpoenas in those cases where we do not receive cooperation," she wrote. “
Title: Re: Russiagate
Post by: AbruptSLR on June 10, 2017, 10:11:12 PM
Here is links to the Palmer Report parade of hits on Team Trump:

“Ted Lieu goes off on Donald Trump’s attorney and suggests he could end up in prison”

http://www.palmerreport.com/politics/ted-lieu-trump-attorney/3398/ (http://www.palmerreport.com/politics/ted-lieu-trump-attorney/3398/)

Extract: “Finally, Lieu asserted that both Trump and his attorney could face legal consequences for their actions toward James Comey: “Since NO LEGAL BASIS for this complaint, it would constitute more Obstruction of Justice. Fun fact: WH Counsel for Nixon went to prison.”“

The Senate Judiciary Committee may soon start issuing subpoenas related to Trump's obstruction of justice charges:

&

“Republican Senator Chuck Grassley has had enough of Donald Trump’s crap”

http://www.palmerreport.com/politics/grassley-trump-crap/3400/ (http://www.palmerreport.com/politics/grassley-trump-crap/3400/)

Extract: “For months, Republican Senate Judiciary Committee Chairman Chuck Grassley has shown gradually increasing interest in exposing Donald Trump’s scandals, or at least increasing resentment at how Trump’s White House has been refusing to cooperate with his committee’s investigations. But over the weekend, seemingly in response to James Comey’s testimony, Grassley has had enough of Trump’s crap and he’s coming out swinging in three different ways. ”
Title: Re: Russiagate
Post by: AbruptSLR on June 10, 2017, 10:43:45 PM
It also depends on the country. In some European countries, the youth are heading towards the far right. France, Sweden, Austria and Greece to name a few. In general, countries where either youth unemployment is much higher now than the structural historical average or the refugee crisis has hit home.

Add some climate refugees, increasing terrorism and gradually increasing negative economic pressure from climate change and that's a hostile mix.

There is some hope from the trends you mention above, but that voting bloc has to be presented with candidates that they can rally behind.

While this thread does not have a particularly philosophical bent, nevertheless, I provide the first linked Alternet article entitled: "The Deep Roots of Left vs. Right", to point out that the best way to improve our current politically polarized situation is to progressively move back towards a point of yin-yang balance of the constraints of freedom vs security:

http://www.alternet.org/culture/deep-roots-left-vs-right (http://www.alternet.org/culture/deep-roots-left-vs-right)

Extract: "“I’m left wing,” or “I’m right wing,” morphs too, reflecting changing coalitions and interests. Today, left and right have come to mean factions that would like the other faction out of the way. They’re not a yin and yang that need each other. They’re warring kingdoms competing for exclusive dominion over the same space, and then competing over which kingdom is to blame for starting the warring.

Remembering that what we’re all really negotiating—the right balance of constraint and freedom, security and liberty—may make us more receptive to negotiation, and smarter negotiators too, not taken in by hyperbolic half-truths about the one true way."

Also, the linked article indicates that the 4th Industrial Revolution will open new doors for young people to establish new norms of human interaction.

"Riding the Next Wave of Human Evolution"

https://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/conversational-intelligence/201706/riding-the-next-wave-human-evolution (https://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/conversational-intelligence/201706/riding-the-next-wave-human-evolution)

Extract: "With their deep comfort with uncertainty and technology, coupled with their hardwired sense of inclusion, Millennials are blazing the trail by transforming workplaces. When used well, technological connections facilitate extended conversations and build trusting relationships transcending time and space, with all the potential this unleashes. The future leaders of this relationship network, where the world is connected in ways that shift our minds and brains, are the Millennials. Consider this: How might the Millennial generation be riding the next wave of human evolution?"

I am not trying to present Pollyannaish visions of guaranteed utopia; only a path forward that may result in a softer socio-economic collapse circa 2050-2060; & in my opinion that middle path includes putting up resistance to Trump's (& Putin's) alt-right extremism.
Title: Re: Russiagate
Post by: AbruptSLR on June 11, 2017, 03:33:07 PM
Donald Trump Jr. seems to confirm Comey's testimony:

"Donald Trump Jr. confirms Comey's account of Flynn investigation"

http://www.al.com/news/index.ssf/2017/06/donald_trump_jr_confirms_comey.html (http://www.al.com/news/index.ssf/2017/06/donald_trump_jr_confirms_comey.html)

Extract: "… Donald Trump Jr. - the president's eldest son - seemed to confirm Comey's version of events in a Saturday interview on Fox News as he tried to emphasize the fact that his father did not directly order Comey to stop investigating Flynn.
"When he tells you to do something, guess what? There's no ambiguity in it, there's no, 'Hey, I'm hoping,'" Trump said. "You and I are friends: 'Hey, I hope this happens, but you've got to do your job.' That's what he told Comey. And for this guy as a politician to then go back and write a memo: 'Oh, I felt threatened.' He felt so threatened - but he didn't do anything."
Title: Re: Russiagate
Post by: AbruptSLR on June 12, 2017, 03:09:19 AM
This is a very strongly worded tweet from Patrick Leahy to Jeff Sessions:

"Senator Patrick Leahy throws down the Trump-Russia gauntlet at Jeff Sessions"

http://www.palmerreport.com/politics/senator-patrick-leahy-jeff-sessions/3419/ (http://www.palmerreport.com/politics/senator-patrick-leahy-jeff-sessions/3419/)

Extract: "Leahy tweeted the following regarding Jeff Sessions: “Atty Gen. Sessions provided false testimony in response to questions from me and @SenFranken about his contacts with Russian officials. Now, twice in 2 mos., AG Sessions cancels an Approps hg in which I could Q him about his false testimony and half-hearted Russia recusal. My mssg to AttyGen Sessions: Approps & Judiciary have oversight of DOJ. You need to testify before both in public. You can’t run forever.”"
Title: Re: Russiagate
Post by: Buddy on June 12, 2017, 12:46:38 PM
Three things we now know about Comey's conversation between Comey and Trump...and the discussion of "hope you can see your way through to dropping the in estimation of Flynn."

1.  Comey DID say that
2.  Either there are is no tape of THAT conversation, or it will never see the light of day
3.  Donnie will NEVER testify under oath about that conversation in public.  He will blame his attorney's  for not "allowing" him to testify.
Title: Re: Russiagate
Post by: Buddy on June 12, 2017, 03:06:12 PM
While the "obstruction of justice angle" may be entertaining...it is NOT where the meat of the investigation is centered.  Deutsche Bank has refused to give up information on Trump so far, to members of the committees looking into RussiaGate.  Not sure whether the FBI has subpoenaed those records as well....and not sure what their recourse is.

Banking is where some of the important FBI work will be done over the coming months....and wading through all the companies and pass through entities.  And this is where the smoking guns will be found.
Title: Re: Russiagate
Post by: Buddy on June 12, 2017, 07:14:33 PM
....and the polls are heading to new lows for Donnie in the coming days.  Gallup now at 36% and 59% which is 1% away from Donnie's record high "spread" set back in March.  March was also when he had his lowest approval rating of 35%....which he is only 1% away from where we are now.  I expect him to touch the low 30's sometime this year....and may bounce around in the low to mid 30's before heading into the mid to high 20's next year (otherwise known as impeachment year).😉
Title: Re: Russiagate
Post by: TerryM on June 12, 2017, 09:48:22 PM
Jeff Sessions will testify before the Senate Intelligence Committee on Tuesday 2:30 EST. The public hearing, under oath, could be interesting as Sessions has previously recused himself from all things Russian.


http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2017-06-12/sessions-testify-publicly-senate-intel-committee-tomorrow (http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2017-06-12/sessions-testify-publicly-senate-intel-committee-tomorrow)


I can't help but wonder whether he has any tapes in his possession, or any phone records, or any stray E-Mails. While "17 Spy Agencies" agree that the Russian's did nefarious things during the campaign, AFAIK they've never offered up any of the e-mails that they must have recorded that would prove their allegations.


Is Sessions as head of the Justice Department ultimately responsible for the FBI, the NSA, or any of the other spooky organizations? Would/Should he have access to whatever they have uncovered, or would his recusal have limited his access at some point in time?


Since Sessions was not in power during the election wouldn't asking questions of his predecessor be more productive?


Is the subcommittee investigating Trump's interactions with Russia prior to the conclusion of the election, when Sessions was not AG, or is this a far broader fishing expedition more akin to Starr's investigation of a Clinton's cattle deal that ended up investigating a pig giving Bill a blow job?

If the former I can't imagine what the former Senator could contribute, but if the later there's no way to predict where, or how, this will end.


Terry

Title: Re: Russiagate
Post by: Buddy on June 12, 2017, 11:27:21 PM
The chatter about firing Mueller was started today by Mr. Unethical himself....Newt Gingrich.  I expect others to climb on that train as well...in order to give Donnie "cover" to fire Mueller.

Also.... the "mocking phase" was officially started today by Schumer.  Next few months are going to get MORE contentious...not less.

This is going to get nasty.....and it is going to be a dangerous situation until it is over...and hopefully with Donnie, Mikey, Beavus, Butthead, Nunes, Chaffets, and others out of office or in jail.

Buckle up....
Title: Re: Russiagate
Post by: budmantis on June 13, 2017, 01:24:34 AM
The chatter about firing Mueller was started today by Mr. Unethical himself....Newt Gingrich.  I expect others to climb on that train as well...in order to give Donnie "cover" to fire Mueller.

Also.... the "mocking phase" was officially started today by Schumer.  Next few months are going to get MORE contentious...not less.

This is going to get nasty.....and it is going to be a dangerous situation until it is over...and hopefully with Donnie, Mikey, Beavus, Butthead, Nunes, Chaffets, and others out of office or in jail.

Buckle up....

In my opinion, Trump would further damage his situation if he fired Mueller. By the way Buddy, who exactly is Beavis and Butthead? There are so many in his cabinet that deserve those names.

BudM
Title: Re: Russiagate
Post by: Buddy on June 13, 2017, 01:33:37 AM
Beavis and Butthead are his two oldest sons...
Title: Re: Russiagate
Post by: pileus on June 13, 2017, 02:07:15 AM
Reporting and speculation is increasing this evening that Trump may attempt to fire Special Counsel Mueller.  This would need to be done by the current Deputy AG, since AG Sessions is recused (allegedly). If Rosenstein refuses, Trump could fire him and ultimately order the DOJ to eliminate the Special Counsel provision.  Congress could then either establish an independent commission or begin impeachment proceedings, but that is unlikely with the current group of majority Republicans.  If Trump takes these actions and Congress allows it, this is truly the final step over the rubicon for what's left of American democracy.

A person that has nothing to hide or is free of guilt does not act like Trump has been acting.

Regarding AG Sessions, word out of the Senate Intel committee is that there are intercepted communications between him and the Russian ambassador from the third meeting.
Title: Re: Russiagate
Post by: Buddy on June 13, 2017, 02:37:11 AM
Donnie will fire anyone who does not fire Mueller.  ANYONE.  A few things:

1). Donnie is a sociopath

2). He is fighting for his family's economic life

3). Vlad has him by the testicles

4). President Brannon wants to blow things up....this is a step in that direction

Mueller WILL be fired.





Title: Re: Russiagate
Post by: Buddy on June 13, 2017, 03:04:50 AM
There are clearly several ways this clusterf$$ck of a so-called administration may end.  I would be looking for General Mattis to play an important part.  He is the only cabinet member with a backbone AND strong ethics.

He won't take this forever.....
Title: Re: Russiagate
Post by: AbruptSLR on June 13, 2017, 03:23:52 AM
Donnie will fire anyone who does not fire Mueller.

...

Mueller WILL be fired.

Here is some background discussion on this issue:

"Trump's friend Christopher Ruddy says President 'considering' firing Mueller"

http://www.cnn.com/2017/06/12/politics/ruddy-robert-mueller-white-house/ (http://www.cnn.com/2017/06/12/politics/ruddy-robert-mueller-white-house/)
Title: Re: Russiagate
Post by: Buddy on June 13, 2017, 04:50:46 AM
I encourage you folks to take a listen to FOX News over the next week or two.  I think it is always healthy to see what BALD FACED LYING looks like....and it shows how some people can be conned.  I especially encourage you to liste to Sean Hannity, Jeanine Pierrot, or FOX and Friends..... because those three having lying down to an art form.

It's important to understand how people have been brainwashed by FOX.
Title: Re: Russiagate
Post by: budmantis on June 13, 2017, 07:39:27 AM
Reporting and speculation is increasing this evening that Trump may attempt to fire Special Counsel Mueller.  This would need to be done by the current Deputy AG, since AG Sessions is recused (allegedly). If Rosenstein refuses, Trump could fire him and ultimately order the DOJ to eliminate the Special Counsel provision.  Congress could then either establish an independent commission or begin impeachment proceedings, but that is unlikely with the current group of majority Republicans.  If Trump takes these actions and Congress allows it, this is truly the final step over the rubicon for what's left of American democracy.

A person that has nothing to hide or is free of guilt does not act like Trump has been acting.

Regarding AG Sessions, word out of the Senate Intel committee is that there are intercepted communications between him and the Russian ambassador from the third meeting.

You may be right Pileus, but I wouldn't count out American democracy too quickly. If Trump attempts to fire Mueller, he'll be throwing more fuel on the fire. Trump shoots from the hip and if he continues, he's just hurting his chances further. His best move in my opinion, (unless he has something to hide), is to let Mueller do his job. If he manages to fire Mueller, he just hastens his demise.

BudM
Title: Re: Russiagate
Post by: budmantis on June 13, 2017, 07:53:32 AM
Trump will need the Republicans on his side if he expects to weather the problems facing him in the near future. With that in mind, Trump should be mindful of his allies when considering how best to deal with Mueller.

http://www.politico.com/story/2017/06/12/republicans-robert-mueller-trump-239460 (http://www.politico.com/story/2017/06/12/republicans-robert-mueller-trump-239460)
Title: Re: Russiagate
Post by: Archimid on June 13, 2017, 02:30:47 PM
Russian Breach of 39 States Threatens Future U.S. Elections

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2017-06-13/russian-breach-of-39-states-threatens-future-u-s-elections (https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2017-06-13/russian-breach-of-39-states-threatens-future-u-s-elections)

Quote
Russia’s cyberattack on the U.S. electoral system before Donald Trump’s election was far more widespread than has been publicly revealed, including incursions into voter databases and software systems in almost twice as many states as previously reported.
Title: Re: Russiagate
Post by: pileus on June 13, 2017, 06:22:50 PM
Reporting and speculation is increasing this evening that Trump may attempt to fire Special Counsel Mueller.  This would need to be done by the current Deputy AG, since AG Sessions is recused (allegedly). If Rosenstein refuses, Trump could fire him and ultimately order the DOJ to eliminate the Special Counsel provision.  Congress could then either establish an independent commission or begin impeachment proceedings, but that is unlikely with the current group of majority Republicans.  If Trump takes these actions and Congress allows it, this is truly the final step over the rubicon for what's left of American democracy.

A person that has nothing to hide or is free of guilt does not act like Trump has been acting.

Regarding AG Sessions, word out of the Senate Intel committee is that there are intercepted communications between him and the Russian ambassador from the third meeting.

You may be right Pileus, but I wouldn't count out American democracy too quickly. If Trump attempts to fire Mueller, he'll be throwing more fuel on the fire. Trump shoots from the hip and if he continues, he's just hurting his chances further. His best move in my opinion, (unless he has something to hide), is to let Mueller do his job. If he manages to fire Mueller, he just hastens his demise.

BudM

budmantis, you have much more optimism than I at this point.  I continue to have faith in the American experiment, and I'm vested in the US as my family emigrated here in the 1740s.  My male ancestors served in the Revolutionary War, Civil War (Union), and the 20th century conflicts.  We lost several in the Civil War (in Virginia) and on European soil in World War II (Italy, Belgium and Germany).

After the Comey firing I posted that we would see if the American system would "bend or break".  I agree that some institutions such as the courts and (some) media have been serving as effective checks against Trump, but it has been sad to watch the GOP continuing to deepen their abandonment of relative norms and standards that have kept the American system operating for a few centuries.  All in the name of tax cuts and a regressive economic and cultural agenda that harms people and the environment, and handicaps efforts to slow the pace of climate change.

If Trump fires Mueller it SHOULD be the last straw as you allude for Republicans, but I am skeptical that this crop of GOP leaders will do anything but cover for and support Trump no matter what he does.  I certainly hope I am wrong on this point, and that a truly bipartisan resistance to Trump's effort to install an authoritarian regime develops sooner than later.
Title: Re: Russiagate
Post by: budmantis on June 13, 2017, 08:32:17 PM
Pileus:

I think it's more hope than optimism! I think Trump is too volatile to do long lasting damage. The guy that worries me the most is Mitch McConnell. Thanks to him, we have another conservative judge on the Supreme Court and the likelihood of many more conservative judges being appointed to Circuit Courts of Appeal while Trump or Pence serve as President. Democratic control of the Senate isn't likely to happen until 2020.

By the way, that's an impressive amount of family history. My own ancestry is incomplete, but the first ancestor of mine that emigrated to the new world (Quebec), arrived around 1640.

BudM
Title: Re: Russiagate
Post by: AbruptSLR on June 14, 2017, 04:38:40 AM
This sounds like Trump fired Preet Bharara in order to obstruct justice, and if proven, that Marc Kasowitz may be going to jail:

"Trump’s Personal Lawyer Boasted That He Got Preet Bharara Fired"

https://www.propublica.org/article/trump-personal-lawyer-boasted-that-he-got-preet-bharara-fired (https://www.propublica.org/article/trump-personal-lawyer-boasted-that-he-got-preet-bharara-fired)

Extract: "Marc Kasowitz, President Donald Trump’s personal lawyer in the Russia investigation, has boasted to friends and colleagues that he played a central role in the firing of Preet Bharara, the United States Attorney for the Southern District of New York, according to four people familiar with the conversations.


Kasowitz told Trump, “This guy is going to get you,” according to a person familiar with Kasowitz’s account."
Title: Re: Russiagate
Post by: AbruptSLR on June 14, 2017, 10:20:17 AM
The linked article indicates that contrary to Jeff Sessions' sworn testimony, that during Trump's campaign that he met with Sergey Kislyak as a Trump campaign surrogate rather than as a US senator.  While it is difficult to get a straight answer from Sessions, this hints at a possible cover-up of possible collusion with Russia during the campaign.

"Why Did Jeff Sessions Really Meet With Sergey Kislyak?"

https://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2017/06/why-did-jeff-sessions-really-meet-sergey-kislyak/530091/ (https://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2017/06/why-did-jeff-sessions-really-meet-sergey-kislyak/530091/)

Extract: "The attorney general says he was acting as a senator, but a review of his activities that summer shows ambassadors seeking him out as a Trump surrogate."
Title: Re: Russiagate
Post by: AbruptSLR on June 14, 2017, 10:37:52 AM
The linked article indicates that during his testimony to the Senate Intelligence Committee today that Jeff Sessions provide sufficient information for Bob Mueller to subpoena before a grand jury in order to compel testimony on Sessions conversations with Trump regarding the firing of Comey:

"Legal expert: Jeff Sessions just bought himself a ticket to a grand jury"

http://www.palmerreport.com/politics/expert-jeff-sessions-grand-jury/3449/ (http://www.palmerreport.com/politics/expert-jeff-sessions-grand-jury/3449/)

Extract: "Matthew Miller, an MSNBC Justice and Security Analyst with experience at the Department of Justice, posted the following summation of Jeff Sessions’s testimony after it concluded today: “if Mueller is investigating obstruction, Sessions just earned himself a trip to the grand jury to discuss those convos w/ Trump.” (link). Former FBI Director James Comey essentially confirmed during his own testimony last week that the Special Counsel is in fact investigating Donald Trump for obstruction of justice."
Title: Re: Russiagate
Post by: Buddy on June 14, 2017, 01:43:47 PM
I watched some of the Sessions testimony video last night.  Senator Harris tore Sessions apart...and she exposed his false pretense of not discussing Session's discussions with Donnie.  Mueller and his group will have a crack at Sessions in coming months.

Harris is sharp..she will be a force in coming years for the Dem's.
Title: Re: Russiagate
Post by: Buddy on June 14, 2017, 02:07:19 PM
You can see that we have advanced deeper into the "mocking phase" of Trump as this long tortuous process continues to play out.  I think we will see more spillover of the mocking into the White House daily briefings in the months ahead.  I would hate to be Spicey or Huckabee in coming months.  In fact...I think they will hate to be Spicey and Huckabee as well.

As far as Mueller is concerned....it's just a matter of time, and the advancing tsunami that is Mueller's investigation, until it gets too close...at which time Donnie will pull the trigger on Mueller.  That is what a guilty person will be forced to do...especially a guilty sociopath.

Title: Re: Russiagate
Post by: Buddy on June 14, 2017, 06:38:02 PM
RussiaGate and global warming continue move towards each other.....and towards Donnie.  A third leg also appears to be oil prices which have more downside ahead of them. 

1.  Too much US oil is making it impossible to work off the excess supply

2.  RussiaGate continues to suck oxygen from almost every other topic

3.  Donnie continues to be Donnie.....as he says and does, one bonehead thing after the other

4.  Thin Arctic ice continues its summer melt.... likely towards a new record low minimum in Sept
Title: Re: Russiagate
Post by: pileus on June 14, 2017, 09:15:31 PM
I watched some of the Sessions testimony video last night.  Senator Harris tore Sessions apart...and she exposed his false pretense of not discussing Session's discussions with Donnie.  Mueller and his group will have a crack at Sessions in coming months.

Harris is sharp..she will be a force in coming years for the Dem's.

And for the second time in as many weeks, she was shut down by a Republican male during her questioning.  Like Warren was shut down during, ironically, the confirmation for Jeff Sessions.  Misogyny and hostility to women will continue to be a hurdle for any female presidential candidate in the future.

Martin Heinrich and Angus King were also very impressive in their questioning.  But the Republicans on the committee showed why that group's investigation will go nowhere.  Everything is riding on Mueller's work at this point.
Title: Re: Russiagate
Post by: pileus on June 15, 2017, 12:31:26 AM
Confirmation this evening of what many have suspected.  This markedly increases the odds that Trump will terminate Mueller and spark a constitutional confrontation.

Special counsel is investigating Trump for possible obstruction of justice, officials say

https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/national-security/special-counsel-is-investigating-trump-for-possible-obstruction-of-justice/2017/06/14/9ce02506-5131-11e7-b064-828ba60fbb98_story.html?tid=sm_tw&utm_term=.964001705f33 (https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/national-security/special-counsel-is-investigating-trump-for-possible-obstruction-of-justice/2017/06/14/9ce02506-5131-11e7-b064-828ba60fbb98_story.html?tid=sm_tw&utm_term=.964001705f33)

The move by Special Counsel Robert S. Mueller III to investigate Trump’s own conduct marks a major turning point in the nearly year-old FBI investigation, which until recently focused on Russian meddling during the presidential campaign and on whether there was any coordination between the Trump campaign and the Kremlin. Investigators have also been looking for any evidence of possible financial crimes among Trump associates, officials said.

Title: Re: Russiagate
Post by: AbruptSLR on June 15, 2017, 01:46:33 AM
Confirmation this evening of what many have suspected.  This markedly increases the odds that Trump will terminate Mueller and spark a constitutional confrontation.

Special counsel is investigating Trump for possible obstruction of justice, officials say

Happy Birthday Mr. President.
Title: Re: Russiagate
Post by: Buddy on June 15, 2017, 02:09:51 AM
Donnie is now discovering physics....and people keep handing him concrete while he tries to keep his head above water.

Happy birthday indeed.  The noose tightens and the process continues...
Title: Re: Russiagate
Post by: Buddy on June 15, 2017, 02:20:18 AM
Keep in mind that obstruction of justice is not the "meat and potatos" of the investigation, but it is a nice appetizer.😏
Title: Re: Russiagate
Post by: AbruptSLR on June 15, 2017, 03:26:06 AM
The Senate Judiciary Committee is joining the criminal investigation that Trump may have obstructed justice associated with Comey's firing:

"Senate Judiciary Committee opens investigation into Trump for firing former FBI Director James Comey"

http://www.rawstory.com/2017/06/senate-judiciary-committee-opens-investigation-into-trump-for-firing-former-fbi-director-james-comey/ (http://www.rawstory.com/2017/06/senate-judiciary-committee-opens-investigation-into-trump-for-firing-former-fbi-director-james-comey/)

Extract: "The Wall Street Journal reported on Wednesday that the Senate Judiciary Committee will investigate President Donald Trump’s firing of former FBI Director James Comey."
Title: Re: Russiagate
Post by: AbruptSLR on June 15, 2017, 09:01:51 AM
Happy birthday indeed.  The noose tightens and the process continues...

Now that Trump is 71, if/when push comes to shove, his lawyers can argue that he has diminished mental capacity and cannot be held responsible for his actions, so that the in-coming president should pardon Trump.
Title: Re: Russiagate
Post by: AbruptSLR on June 15, 2017, 09:19:10 AM
Even the USA Today is reporting that the Republican controlled Senate just voted to defy Trump and increase the punitive sanctions against Russia for their meddling in the 2016 election.  As impeachment is a political process, this is a clear sign that the GOP is starting to distance itself from Trump's sinking ship.

"Senate approves sanctions against Russia for meddling in presidential election, other abuses"

https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/politics/2017/06/14/senate-approves-sanctions-against-russia-meddling-presidential-election-other-abuses/102851760/ (https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/politics/2017/06/14/senate-approves-sanctions-against-russia-meddling-presidential-election-other-abuses/102851760/)

Extract: "Defying the Trump administration, the Senate agreed overwhelmingly Wednesday to expand sanctions against Russia for meddling in last year’s presidential election and for myriad other abuses."
Title: Re: Russiagate
Post by: Buddy on June 15, 2017, 01:03:31 PM
Many of the folks around Trump will get swept up in the obstruction of justice hunt....even if they weren't involved in more "meaty" charges of money laundering or helping the Russians during the election.  So it will be interesting to see if those involved in publicly communicating Donnie's message are going to tread a little more lightly going forward....knowing that they are now going to be closely examined.

I'll be watching my favorite fake Christian....Sara Huckabee...to see if she treads a little more lightly.  Same for Spicey....and the Queen of lying, Kellyann Conway.
Title: Re: Russiagate
Post by: Buddy on June 15, 2017, 02:52:06 PM
Also of note....FBI is looking into Rudy Guiliani's leaking of FBI information of the Clinton investigation during the election.  He DID.....and one of my favorite weazel's, Jason Chaffets, also will be implicated in that issue as well.   No wonder Jason is leaving office to work at FOX....where being short on ethics seems to be a requirement.  Well done FOX....you deserve each other.😜
Title: Re: Russiagate
Post by: AbruptSLR on June 15, 2017, 04:00:30 PM
Using a "rope a dope" strategy the Dems hope to get Trump to self-impeach over the Russia investigation:

"Trump Will “Self-Impeach” Over Russia Investigation, Leading Democrat Says"

http://elitedaily.com/news/politics/trump-will-self-impeach-russia-investigation-leading-democrat-says/1991632/ (http://elitedaily.com/news/politics/trump-will-self-impeach-russia-investigation-leading-democrat-says/1991632/)

Extract: "House minority leader Nancy Pelosi cited a simple reason why Democrats should stop trying to impeach Donald Trump: the president will eventually do it himself.
According to Politico, Rep. Pelosi made the appeal during a closed-door meeting on Tuesday …"
Title: Re: Russiagate
Post by: pileus on June 15, 2017, 05:14:06 PM
Happy birthday indeed.  The noose tightens and the process continues...

Now that Trump is 71, if/when push comes to shove, his lawyers can argue that he has diminished mental capacity and cannot be held responsible for his actions, so that the in-coming president should pardon Trump.

This along with what transpired with Reagan should be enough to spark a national dialogue about reasonable age limits for presidential and other candidates for national federal office.  Of course some would immediately cry "aegism!", but it's not at all controversial to say that after 70 both cognitive and physical capabilities are compromised and in permanent decline.  Many of us begin to decline physically much earlier, in our 40s or 50s, and mental sharpness is also highly variable depending on a host of circumstances.  The demands of the US presidency are tremendous, it is truly a 24/7 job and the constant domestic and worldwide travel requirements take a toll on the body and psyche.  This would naturally suggest the US think twice before foisting the current crop of septuagenarians under discussion for 2020 upon the nation, including the mainstream Democrats (Biden and Clinton), the Independent Leftist (Sanders), and the so-called GOP (Romney, or, god forbid, Trump). 
Title: Re: Russiagate
Post by: Buddy on June 15, 2017, 05:22:46 PM
I saw where FOX is dropping their old tag line (LIE) of "Fair and Balenced."

I have been using a much more appropriate AND ACCURATE tag line for months.  I have no doubt that they will begin using it.😳
Title: Re: Russiagate
Post by: AbruptSLR on June 15, 2017, 07:15:12 PM
The evidence accumulates that Trump tried to obstruct justice in the Russia investigation:

"NSA memo leaks documenting Donald Trump’s attempt at obstruction of justice"

http://www.palmerreport.com/politics/nsa-memo-trump-obstruction/3471/ (http://www.palmerreport.com/politics/nsa-memo-trump-obstruction/3471/)
Title: Re: Russiagate
Post by: SteveMDFP on June 16, 2017, 02:06:58 AM
Even the USA Today is reporting that the Republican controlled Senate just voted to defy Trump and increase the punitive sanctions against Russia for their meddling in the 2016 election.  As impeachment is a political process, this is a clear sign that the GOP is starting to distance itself from Trump's sinking ship.

"Senate approves sanctions against Russia for meddling in presidential election, other abuses"

https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/politics/2017/06/14/senate-approves-sanctions-against-russia-meddling-presidential-election-other-abuses/102851760/ (https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/politics/2017/06/14/senate-approves-sanctions-against-russia-meddling-presidential-election-other-abuses/102851760/)

Extract: "Defying the Trump administration, the Senate agreed overwhelmingly Wednesday to expand sanctions against Russia for meddling in last year’s presidential election and for myriad other abuses."

The expanded sanctions against Russia (combined in the bill with anti-Iran sanctions) is, indeed, highly significant.  But I think even more relevant is another passage in the article

Quote
Not only does the amendment impose new sanctions on what it identifies as “corrupt Russian actors,” it makes it impossible for the Trump administration to remove them unilateraly. Under the bipartisan agreement, Congress will have the authority to review and potentially disapprove any attempt by the administration to suspend or terminate the sanctions.

Trump, on his own, can no longer reverse the sanctions, if this clears the House.

Look at this from Putin's perspective.  I can see four or five major gains he might have expected from Trump's victory:
1.  An end to sanction (that's no longer in Trumps power).
2.  A weakening of NATO's tendency to encroach on Rissia's borders (that's not happened, with Montenegro entering the NATO umbrella).   Mixed bag otherwise, because while Trump may have demoralized NATO, he's bullied the other members to boost military spending.
3.  Ceasing efforts to undermine Assad's regime.  Not much gain there, with the bombing of a Syrian air base.
4.  Possibly steps to increase the price of oil, perhaps by raising tensions with Iran.  Well, tensions with Iran are up a notch, but oil is just not getting pricier.  US frackers are taking up the slack.
5.  Rolling back efforts to prop up the regime in Ukraine.  Well, with sanctions still in place and the Russian economy faltering, Putin's probably bitten off as much of Ukraine as he can chew.  No real gain there.

In sum, Russia's gotten no better deal than they'd have faced if Hillary had won.  Trump is now essentially useless to Putin.  I wonder if Putin might decide it's best to make public any and all incriminating evidence he has on Trump, and just destroy the Trump administration.

Putin wouldn't necessarily gain much by doing so, except he'd cement his reputation as a guy you just don't cross if you value your freedom.  That's worth something.
Title: Re: Russiagate
Post by: ritter on June 16, 2017, 05:16:04 PM
I wonder if Putin might decide it's best to make public any and all incriminating evidence he has on Trump, and just destroy the Trump administration.

Putin wouldn't necessarily gain much by doing so, except he'd cement his reputation as a guy you just don't cross if you value your freedom.  That's worth something.

He'd manage to throw the US government into absolute chaos. While many of us dream of impeachment, we do need to be careful of what we wish for. I'm not sure how softly the ardent Trump supporters will go gentle into that good night. We live in interesting times.
Title: Re: Russiagate
Post by: AbruptSLR on June 16, 2017, 06:03:24 PM
If one postulates that Russiagate is true (that Donald & Vlad have/are colluded/colluding), and that consequently both Donald and Vlad are prepared to fight to the bitter end to maintain control over the US government; then it is worthwhile to put oneself in Donald/Vlad's shoes in order to avoid being surprised by Donald/Vlad's likely endgame.  In this regards, I begin with the first linked article by TASS about Trump's fight against the "Deep State" (note I will play the devil's advocate and talk in terms of the "Deep State" promoted by both Steve Bannon & the Russian Oligarch) led by Bob Mueller (with my comments after the extract from the second linked article):

"Kommersant: Mission Unimpeachable: Special Counsel Mueller tests Trump team"

http://tass.com/pressreview/951180 (http://tass.com/pressreview/951180)

Extract: "The standoff between US President Donald Trump and his ‘Deep State’ rivals has entered a new phase. After former FBI Director James Comey testified before Congress, which seemed to have disquieted the White House occupant, the role of the new chief newsmaker goes to ex-FBI chief, Robert Mueller, Kommersant writes. He now shoulders the burden for the continued probe of Trump’s alleged connection with Russia.

So far the question of Mueller’s role in possibly advancing the Democrats’ campaign to impeach the president is still open. According to Yuri Rogulev, Director of the Franklin D. Roosevelt Foundation for United States Studies at the Moscow State University, it is rather difficult to foresee how events will unfold. "I’m sure that those in the US, who are conducting this investigation, will not be able to find evidence confirming Trump’s ties with Russian officials and the basis for impeachment won’t have legs to stand on. At the hearings, Comey himself confirmed that reports on Trump’s connections with Russia had been fabricated, and in this case Mueller will not change anything, despite his political experience," he told the paper."

&

Next, I post the linked Factcheck article entitled: "Can Trump Fire Mueller?", which makes it clear that Trump can eliminate the Special Counsel by rescinding regulation 28 C.F.R. Section 600.4-600.10 (or alternately firing Rosenstein for writing his memo on Comey that Trump says lead to his firing of Comey, and then replace Rosenstein with a new Deputy AG that would fire Mueller and not appoint a new special counsel).  This would stop all investigations of obstruction of justice, laundering of Russian oligarch money and collusion in the 2016 election until the "Deep State" can pass a Congressional law creating a new office for an independent counsel (like Ken Starr was), and then invite someone beholding to the "Deep State" like Mueller to fill that office.

http://www.factcheck.org/2017/06/can-trump-fire-mueller/ (http://www.factcheck.org/2017/06/can-trump-fire-mueller/)

Extract: "Q: Can President Donald Trump fire special counsel Robert Mueller?

A: Not directly. Only the deputy attorney general who appointed Mueller can fire him and only for cause. But Trump could fire the DAG, or order the special-counsel regulations repealed and fire Mueller himself."

Such game playing to temporarily shut-down the Russiagate investigation may seem counterproductive to Team Trump/Putin (making them look more guilty), but if Congress appoints an independent counsel then Trump could challenge the validity of this law all the way to the Supreme Court, saying that under the U.S. Constitution that no governmental office, including the independent counsel, is above some form of accountability (as the special counsel is subject to accountability by the DOJ).  This could effectively delay investigation of Russiagate until after the 2018 elections; by which time Team Trump/Putin could have orchestrated a formally declared war (say against Iran), that would give Trump wartime powers to suppress actions against his administration.
Title: Re: Russiagate
Post by: Buddy on June 16, 2017, 08:07:12 PM
Looks like Donnie is setting himself up to fire Rosenstein pretty soon.  He has to stop Mueller...and getting rid of Rosenstein is step 1 in that process.  Mueller is making too much headway....too quickly.

Another Saturday night massacre coming?  Possible...

Title: Re: Russiagate
Post by: magnamentis on June 16, 2017, 08:15:49 PM
Looks like Donnie is setting himself up to fire Rosenstein pretty soon.  He has to stop Mueller...and getting rid of Rosenstein is step 1 in that process.  Mueller is making too much headway....too quickly.

Another Saturday night massacre coming?  Possible...

it seems to be a fact but can someone explain to me how it's possible the an individual who is subject to serious charges can fire the "prosecutor" so to say ( the person who investigates ) i mean that would be an obvious hindering of obstruction for the legal process to find the truth. if, as it seems that is possible for the second time after comey that would definitely be another flaw in the system IMO and makes appointing an investigator a charade.
Title: Re: Russiagate
Post by: AbruptSLR on June 16, 2017, 10:50:47 PM
it seems to be a fact but can someone explain to me how it's possible the an individual who is subject to serious charges can fire the "prosecutor" so to say ( the person who investigates ) i mean that would be an obvious hindering of obstruction for the legal process to find the truth. if, as it seems that is possible for the second time after comey that would definitely be another flaw in the system IMO and makes appointing an investigator a charade.

Maybe the two linked articles might be of help on this matter:

"Here Are The Differences Between A Special Counsel, Special Prosecutor and Independent Counsel"

http://www.politicususa.com/2017/05/18/differences-special-counsel-special-prosecutor-independent-counsel.html (http://www.politicususa.com/2017/05/18/differences-special-counsel-special-prosecutor-independent-counsel.html)

&

"United States Office of the Independent Counsel"

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_Office_of_the_Independent_Counsel (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_Office_of_the_Independent_Counsel)

Edit, if you're still confused, see:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2017_Special_Counsel_for_the_United_States_Department_of_Justice_team (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2017_Special_Counsel_for_the_United_States_Department_of_Justice_team)
Title: Re: Russiagate
Post by: AbruptSLR on June 17, 2017, 03:16:53 AM
The parade of Palmer Report hits on Team Trump just keep on coming:

“Report: Steve Bannon under investigation for obstruction and physically threatening White House staff”

http://www.palmerreport.com/politics/steve-bannon-obstruction-white-house-staff/3486/ (http://www.palmerreport.com/politics/steve-bannon-obstruction-white-house-staff/3486/)

Extract: “The investigation into Donald Trump’s Russia scandal is expanding by the day, and in some instances by the hour, with the reported list of investigative subjects and targets continuing to grow longer. Now comes a report that White House Chief Strategist Steve Bannon is under investigation for obstruction, and for allegedly physically threatening his fellow White House staffers.

At this point it’s believed that the Special Counsel investigation into Donald Trump and his associates is now focused on Trump himself along with Jared Kushner, Michael Flynn, Carter Page, and Paul Manafort, among others. Vice President Mike Pence, and Trump’s own personal attorney Michael Cohen, have each hired attorneys to personally represent them in the scandal in the past twenty-four hours. And numerous other Trump advisers and associates are being called to testify about the scandal before Congress. And now we have this new report that Steve Bannon is also among those under investigation.”

&

“Trump and deputy Attorney General Rod Rosenstein”

http://www.palmerreport.com/politics/hell-broken-loose-donald-trump-deputy-ag-rod-rosenstein/3484/ (http://www.palmerreport.com/politics/hell-broken-loose-donald-trump-deputy-ag-rod-rosenstein/3484/)

Extract: “It all started with a three sentence press release that was so bizarre, you knew there had to be more to it. Now it’s dissolved into everything from a public attack on the current deputy Attorney General, to the prospect of a new deputy Attorney General – and the picture isn’t less clear now than it was last night. All we know for sure is that all hell has broken loose between Donald Trump and Rod Rosenstein.

It started last night with a Department of Justice press release that had Rosenstein’s name on it but sounded like little more than a glorified Trump rant about not believing leaks in the media. With still no explanation for what was really behind the release, Trump tweeted the following this morning: “I am being investigated for firing the FBI Director by the man who told me to fire the FBI Director! Witch Hunt”.”
Title: Re: Russiagate
Post by: AbruptSLR on June 17, 2017, 05:01:07 PM
Where there is this much smoke, to can bet your bottom dollar that there is fire:

“Donald Trump’s DC hotel construction during campaign”

http://www.palmerreport.com/politics/russian-money-laundering-bank-funded-donald-trumps-dc-hotel-construction-campaign/3495/ (http://www.palmerreport.com/politics/russian-money-laundering-bank-funded-donald-trumps-dc-hotel-construction-campaign/3495/)

Extract: “The United States Office for Government Ethics has released ninety-eight pages of details about Donald Trump’s finances, which demonstrate that he’s directly profiting from the presidency in violation of the Emoluments Clause of the Constitution, and that he’s still massively in debt to foreign and domestic banks. But one detail stands out above the rest, and points directly to his Russia scandal.

Earlier this year German-based Deutsche Bank was busted for prolonged pattern of laundering Russian money into the hands of clients in places like New York City.

So now we’re looking at the specter of a Russian money laundering bank having floated a massive long-term loan to Donald Trump just as he was launching a presidential campaign which went on to hire at least half a dozen senior advisers who had close ties or contacts with the Russian government during the course of the campaign. That doesn’t prove Russia laundered the money to Trump in exchange for him running for president and doing Russia’s bidding, but it sure is eye-popping.”
Title: Re: Russiagate
Post by: Buddy on June 18, 2017, 02:21:19 AM
Although there are many similarities between Watergate and RussiaGate, there is one VERY significant difference:  In Watergate, the coverup was bigger than the crime.  In RussiaGate...The crimes will be much bigger than the coverup.

Going to be an entertaining summer....
Title: Re: Russiagate
Post by: AbruptSLR on June 18, 2017, 03:31:39 AM
This May 2016 video concludes by wondering what will happen if Donald Trump becomes president and has full control of the US government's intelligence resources (& I add this is especially of concern if that control is currently being combined with Putin's control of Russian intelligence resources):

“State of Surveillance”

http://topdocumentaryfilms.com/state-surveillance/ (http://topdocumentaryfilms.com/state-surveillance/)

Extract: “As you read this, your government could be thumbing through your contacts, reviewing your text messages and uploading the photos you have stored on your phone without your knowledge. This is the new reality in a post-9/11 age. Most citizens around the globe were first made aware of this troubling phenomenon through the controversial actions of whistleblower Edward Snowden. In their new documentary titled State of Surveillance, VICE travels to Russia, where Snowden currently lives safe from persecution by the United States, to probe the depths of his particular area of expertise.”
Title: Re: Russiagate
Post by: AbruptSLR on June 18, 2017, 12:55:37 PM
The Palmer Report has a new post indicating that the FBI has tapes of Newt Gingrich setting-up multiple meetings between the Trump campaign and Kislyak et. al. in September 2016.

"Report: FBI has recordings of Newt Gingrich setting up Trump-Russia meetings during campaign"

http://www.palmerreport.com/politics/newt-gingrich-trump-russia-meetings/3504/ (http://www.palmerreport.com/politics/newt-gingrich-trump-russia-meetings/3504/)

Extract: "According to political insider Puesto Loco, whose intel community sources have proven themselves correct in the past, “FBI has Sept, 2016 tapes of Newt Gingrich setting up multiple Team Trump/Russia meetings with Kislyak et al.”"
Title: Re: Russiagate
Post by: AbruptSLR on June 18, 2017, 12:59:31 PM
Trump's silence is deafening:

"Trump’s silence on Russian hacking hands Democrats new weapon"

http://www.politico.com/story/2017/06/17/trump-russia-hacking-silence-democrats-239656 (http://www.politico.com/story/2017/06/17/trump-russia-hacking-silence-democrats-239656)

Extract: "Democrats say Trump has yet to express public concern about the underlying issue with striking implications for America's democracy."
Title: Re: Russiagate
Post by: AbruptSLR on June 18, 2017, 07:17:52 PM
It would appear that Team Trump has had so much success at using low priced trolls to influence their base over the Internet (and in the alt-right media), that they have now decided to use high-priced lawyers to troll the Main Stream Media for their accurate reporting on Russiagate, in an effort to build/maintain Trump's despotic authority.  I take this as an indication that Team-Trump/Bannon plan to fight (including the use of trolling the MSM) the rule of law to the bitter end.

"Trump’s lawyer bizarrely claims Mueller investigating Trump “not constitutional”"

http://shareblue.com/trumps-lawyer-bizarrely-claims-mueller-investigating-trump-unconstitutional/ (http://shareblue.com/trumps-lawyer-bizarrely-claims-mueller-investigating-trump-unconstitutional/)

Extract: "Donald Trump's personal lawyer offered an odd take on what he deems "not constitutional" — not Trump's potential obstruction of justice, but rather the inquiry into that matter altogether."
Title: Re: Russiagate
Post by: AbruptSLR on June 18, 2017, 07:25:54 PM
Trump's silence is deafening:

"Trump’s silence on Russian hacking hands Democrats new weapon"

http://www.politico.com/story/2017/06/17/trump-russia-hacking-silence-democrats-239656 (http://www.politico.com/story/2017/06/17/trump-russia-hacking-silence-democrats-239656)

Extract: "Democrats say Trump has yet to express public concern about the underlying issue with striking implications for America's democracy."

Not only is Trump not interested in Russia's meddling in the 2016 election, he is currently serving as a Russian lobbyist with the House of Representative to fight against more sanctions:

"White House pushing Republicans in the House to relax new Russia sanctions"

http://www.salon.com/2017/06/17/white-house-pushing-republicans-in-the-house-to-relax-new-russia-sanctions/ (http://www.salon.com/2017/06/17/white-house-pushing-republicans-in-the-house-to-relax-new-russia-sanctions/)

Extract: "The Senate overwhelmingly passed new sanctions against Russia, and now the Trump administration is pushing back"
Title: Re: Russiagate
Post by: Hefaistos on June 18, 2017, 09:53:52 PM
Trump's silence is deafening:
"Trump’s silence on Russian hacking hands Democrats new weapon"
http://www.politico.com/story/2017/06/17/trump-russia-hacking-silence-democrats-239656 (http://www.politico.com/story/2017/06/17/trump-russia-hacking-silence-democrats-239656)
Extract: "Democrats say Trump has yet to express public concern about the underlying issue with striking implications for America's democracy."

He might be silent about this, as there are no real proofs of any hacking by Russia as a country. I think we should be very careful to point fingers anywhere here.

The Russian oligarch Oleg Deripaska is an interesting name in this context. Clearly, he knows something about this matter. A couple of weeks ago, NYT wrote that he wants to give testimony to the congressional committee, to which he replies:
"The story set out by the NYT is that I allegedly have information about Russia's interference in the US elections, but that I'm not ready to provide it before I am guaranteed immunity. Both of these statements are untrue and are an absolute lie," Deripaska said in a statement.
Deripaska, an aluminum magnate, stressed that "I really do have evidence - which of course is unpleasant for some - that testifies directly to the opposite of the story of Russian intervention."
He called the article as "true only in certain moments, but in essence false and misleading."
https://www.nytimes.com/2017/05/26/us/politics/oleg-deripaska-paul-manafort.html?_r=0 (https://www.nytimes.com/2017/05/26/us/politics/oleg-deripaska-paul-manafort.html?_r=0)
https://sputniknews.com/world/201705291054082986-deripaska-nyt-full-immunity-russia/ (https://sputniknews.com/world/201705291054082986-deripaska-nyt-full-immunity-russia/)

We can probably assume he knows something about the matter if he makes such a statement, and it deserves to be listened to, because Deripaska is a friend of Putin, a friend and former colleague of Manafort, he befriends various Ukrainian oligarchs, etc. What he says is plainly that it was not "Russia" that did the hacking. If we assume that the NSA is correct that it was "russians" who did the hacking, the question still remains: Who assigned them?

These hacks could well have been organized by someone in the alt-right camp. They would then have used the virus arsenal from CIA with built in false traces pointing to russian origins (as revealed and released by wikileaks), they would have engaged Russian-speaking hackers to generate hackers' 'signatures' that falsely implied Russia.
There is a principal difference between "russians" and "Russia". Lot's of russians live in other countries, more than 3 millions live in the US, very many live in former Soviet republics like Ukraine, e.g. many Ukrainians also have russian as their native language.

I think it's quite unlikely that, for example, GRU would commit to hacking companies in the United States that work with the voting system. Which is what NSA claims in the report recently leaked to the "Intercept". Russia's security service (GRU) has to be considered serious in its activities and always to make a calculation of reward / risk in any activities regarding foreign entities. That GRU officials would busy themselves by hacking actors in the US voting system (which is what the NSA claims, saying it was "Russian government hackers") must reasonably involve a very high risk of detection, with negative, and potentially catastrophic consequences, such as extended sanctions against Russia. I believe that the Russian signatures detected by US intelligence are just false traces laid out by the actual perpetrators. Eventually, Deripaska or someone else with inside knowledge will come forward and tell us who the real organizer is. My hunch: Go for Manafort and his buddies, look into the alt-right undervegetation of the Trump movement.

Title: Re: Russiagate
Post by: Laura Derrick on June 18, 2017, 11:02:13 PM
So your theory is that someone in the alt right did the hacking and set it up to look like it was Russia? Despite it being the consensus of the entire intelligence community that Russia was the culprit?

So how do you explain away Russian election hacking/active measures in the UK, France, Austria, Bulgaria, the Netherlands, Norway, Germany, and Ukraine?

http://www.newsweek.com/russia-election-hacking-france-us-606314 (http://www.newsweek.com/russia-election-hacking-france-us-606314)
Title: Re: Russiagate
Post by: Tor Bejnar on June 19, 2017, 12:38:35 AM
Quote
So how do you explain away Russian election hacking/active measures in the UK, France, Austria, Bulgaria, the Netherlands, Norway, Germany, and Ukraine?
See how clever the Alt-right is! :P ::) ;D :-X :'(
Title: Re: Russiagate
Post by: AbruptSLR on June 19, 2017, 03:27:52 AM
I think it's quite unlikely that, for example, GRU would commit to hacking companies in the United States that work with the voting system. Which is what NSA claims in the report recently leaked to the "Intercept".

Here is the leaked evidence that Russian intelligence was involved in the 2016 election interference, not hackers:

https://theintercept.com/2017/06/05/top-secret-nsa-report-details-russian-hacking-effort-days-before-2016-election/

"The top-secret National Security Agency document, which was provided anonymously to The Intercept and independently authenticated, analyzes intelligence very recently acquired by the agency about a months-long Russian intelligence cyber effort against elements of the U.S. election and voting infrastructure. The report, dated May 5, 2017, is the most detailed U.S. government account of Russian interference in the election that has yet come to light."
Title: Re: Russiagate
Post by: Hefaistos on June 19, 2017, 05:21:11 AM
So your theory is that someone in the alt right did the hacking and set it up to look like it was Russia? Despite it being the consensus of the entire intelligence community that Russia was the culprit?

So how do you explain away Russian election hacking/active measures in the UK, France, Austria, Bulgaria, the Netherlands, Norway, Germany, and Ukraine?

http://www.newsweek.com/russia-election-hacking-france-us-606314 (http://www.newsweek.com/russia-election-hacking-france-us-606314)

I'd say, that any 'political' hacking would involve false traces. You never use generic IP numbers e.g., you always use VPN's to hide where you are and from where the communication takes place.
You also try to create false 'signatures', little traces that reveal the hacker's style, his native language, etc.
CIA mastered this technique, see the complete documentation of the 'Grasshopper' virus:
https://wikileaks.org/vault7/#Grasshopper (https://wikileaks.org/vault7/#Grasshopper)
It's all in the public domain, ready to use for anyone, and the code comes complete with "stolen goods", i.e. code reused from Russian hackers that give false traces pointing to Russia. Neat, isn't it?
As regards France, it has already been explained away by the chief of national cyber security in France, Mr Poupard (at ANSSI), short version here:
http://time.com/4801295/russia-hacking-cyber-security-france-french-election-emmanuel-macron-apt28/ (http://time.com/4801295/russia-hacking-cyber-security-france-french-election-emmanuel-macron-apt28/)
"ANSSI's investigation found no trace behind the Macron hack of the notorious hacking group APT28 — identified by the U.S. government as a Russian intelligence outfit and blamed for hacks of the U.S. election campaign, anti-doping agencies and other targets."
For the full interview see:
http://www.heraldextra.com/news/world/ap-interview-france-warns-of-risk-of-war-in-cyberspace/article_e1105234-03bb-5149-98b0-abf32b900e25.html (http://www.heraldextra.com/news/world/ap-interview-france-warns-of-risk-of-war-in-cyberspace/article_e1105234-03bb-5149-98b0-abf32b900e25.html)

Rogers at NSA was misinformed.
As for the other countries mentioned... Allegations there are, but where are the proofs?
Title: Re: Russiagate
Post by: Hefaistos on June 19, 2017, 05:36:46 AM
I think it's quite unlikely that, for example, GRU would commit to hacking companies in the United States that work with the voting system. Which is what NSA claims in the report recently leaked to the "Intercept".

Here is the leaked evidence that Russian intelligence was involved in the 2016 election interference, not hackers:...
Only that there is no single piece of evidence in that report from the NSA, only empty allegations. I agree that it likely was Russian speaking hackers doing this, but there is simply no evidence that they were working on behalf of Russia. I'd say, they didn't.
Title: Re: Russiagate
Post by: Hefaistos on June 19, 2017, 05:48:24 AM
House Intelligence Committee Chairman Devin Nunes said Saturday there “was never any collusion between Donald Trump and the Russians,” casting himself as a victim of media bias and calling on Washington to “stop chasing Russian ghosts".

http://www.politico.com/story/2017/06/18/nunes-trump-russia-239674 (http://www.politico.com/story/2017/06/18/nunes-trump-russia-239674)
Title: Re: Russiagate
Post by: TerryM on June 19, 2017, 07:11:50 AM
The report, dated May 5, 2017, is the most detailed U.S. government account of Russian interference in the election that has yet come to light."


And states that No Evidence has been presented.


The story, from June 5th, by a "Pro Clinton Partisan" was followed on June 6th by this "Pro Peace Partisan"


http://www.moonofalabama.org/2017/06/do-not-trust-the-intercept-or-how-to-burn-a-source.html (http://www.moonofalabama.org/2017/06/do-not-trust-the-intercept-or-how-to-burn-a-source.html)


The responses offer interesting information.
Terry
Title: Re: Russiagate
Post by: Buddy on June 19, 2017, 01:15:15 PM
Echos of Watergate continue to reverberate.  I continue to marvel at people who say there is no proof....

Donnie and his crew of plumbers are trying to stop the leaks...and at the same time working their PR game of "witch hunt".  The Nixon strategy was much the same:

1.  Discredit the press
2.  Claim it is all a witch hunt
3.  Try to pretend there is "nothing there"

Laughable.  Human psychology is fascinating.....😉



Title: Re: Russiagate
Post by: AbruptSLR on June 19, 2017, 05:27:55 PM
And states that No Evidence has been presented.

I suspect that Mueller has much more evidence that has not been leaked yet, and per the linked article, Team Mueller may acquire much more evidence by using their new expert on witness-flipping:

"Mueller team lawyer brings witness-flipping expertise to Trump probes"

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-usa-trump-russia-lawyers-idUSKBN19A1CM (https://www.reuters.com/article/us-usa-trump-russia-lawyers-idUSKBN19A1CM)

Extract: "A veteran federal prosecutor recruited onto special counsel Robert Mueller's team is known for a skill that may come in handy in the investigation of potential ties between Russia and U.S. President Donald Trump's 2016 campaign team: persuading witnesses to turn on friends, colleagues and superiors.

Andrew Weissmann, who headed the U.S. Justice Department's criminal fraud section before joining Mueller's team last month, is best known for two assignments - the investigation of now-defunct energy company Enron and organized crime cases in Brooklyn, New York - that depended heavily on gaining witness cooperation."
Title: Re: Russiagate
Post by: AbruptSLR on June 19, 2017, 05:43:12 PM
If Trump's approval rating drops to, or below, 30% he is toast (per the attached plot he is currently near 38%):


https://projects.fivethirtyeight.com/trump-approval-ratings/

Title: Re: Russiagate
Post by: AbruptSLR on June 20, 2017, 12:56:56 AM
While different polls give different values, the linked current AP poll only gives Trump a 35% approval rating:

https://apnews.com/024824c4f6ce4eddae98f4156e36553e
Title: Re: Russiagate
Post by: AbruptSLR on June 20, 2017, 03:56:37 PM
And the parade of Palmer Report hits on Team Trump continues:

"Donald Trump’s worst nightmare: Michael Flynn and Paul Manafort are both cooperating in Russia probe"

http://www.palmerreport.com/politics/donald-trumps-worst-nightmare-flynn-manafort-russia-probe/3533/ (http://www.palmerreport.com/politics/donald-trumps-worst-nightmare-flynn-manafort-russia-probe/3533/)

Extract: "First came word earlier today from Democratic members of Congress that Michael Flynn had been caught sneaking off to Saudi Arabia for a secret nuclear deal with the Russians (link). But that was just the warm up act. Hours later another Democratic Senator appeared live on CNN and revealed that he believes Flynn has already cut a deal with the FBI (link). Then came word from the Washington Post that Paul Manafort is cooperating with a Trump-Russia subpoena (link). So why is this all happening at once?"

&

"Report: Jeff Sessions to exit Donald Trump administration after Sean Spicer’s departure"

http://www.palmerreport.com/politics/report-jeff-sessions-donald-trump-sean-spicer-departure/3531/ (http://www.palmerreport.com/politics/report-jeff-sessions-donald-trump-sean-spicer-departure/3531/)
Title: Re: Russiagate
Post by: AbruptSLR on June 21, 2017, 02:49:53 AM
'Morning Joe' suspects that Flynn has the goods on Trump, because Trump has never defended anyone in his career like he has and continues to defend Flynn:

http://www.alternet.org/morning-joe-suspects-michael-flynn-has-goods-trump (http://www.alternet.org/morning-joe-suspects-michael-flynn-has-goods-trump)
Title: Re: Russiagate
Post by: Buddy on June 21, 2017, 03:04:28 AM
My "count" on the number of CABINET members that will be INDICTED in RussiaGate is now at 3. This doesn't count Donnie's sons and daughter....nor does it count Mikey Pence.  I'm talking about Jeff Sessions + 2 other formal cabinet members that are still current cabinet members.  More later as time passes.

Attorneys are really going to be busy over the next 12+ months.😳
Title: Re: Russiagate
Post by: AbruptSLR on June 21, 2017, 04:03:31 AM
Trump's money laundering of Russian money is coming back to bite him in the rear:

"Treasury Department’s financial crimes unit is giving up Donald Trump’s money laundering records"

http://www.palmerreport.com/politics/treasury-department-trump-money-laundering-records/3537/ (http://www.palmerreport.com/politics/treasury-department-trump-money-laundering-records/3537/)

Extract: "The financial crimes unit is turning over its financial records in relation to Donald Trump’s business, according to a CNN report (link). As Palmer Report was the first to report back on April 15th (link), the Treasury FinCEN division busted the Trump Taj Mahal casino for money laundering back in the spring of 2015. This was announced in a press release on the FinCEN website (link), but it only became a part of the Senate’s Trump-Russia investigation after our research team dug it up and publicized it."
Title: Re: Russiagate
Post by: Buddy on June 21, 2017, 03:15:06 PM
For those of you who keep thinking that Donnie is close to resigning...I have some bad news for you.  He isn't even close.  As long as he maintains support from most of the House and Senate...he isn't going anywhere.

He will continue to try and dig himself out of the mess he has gotten himself into.  And you have to understand that he is surrounded by people who are "all in" as well.  People with no ethics...that have gone along with the schenanigans because the are profiting as well.  They are now reliant on each other....Donnie needs them to "stay in the fold"....and they will as long as Donnie either (1) promises a big payday down the road, or (2) funnels money or other assets/benefits to them now.

Donnie can NOT afford a couple of important defections.  And Donnie can NOT afford to see his approval ratings tank into the mid-to-high 20's, which is why I expect to see more of Donnie on the campaign trail when he is not busy golfing.

And never forget that Donnie will do ANYTHING to stay in power.  He wants much of what Vlad has...and will do anything to get it.

The two big questions are:  (1) Will the FBI be able to FINISH the investigation, and (2) will the FBI be able to "flip" AT LEAST a couple of the "big fish" to corraborate all the financial and other information they are now digging up?
Title: Re: Russiagate
Post by: AbruptSLR on June 21, 2017, 03:30:58 PM
The linked article emphasizes that Trump already appears to be putting his thumb on the intelligence community:

"Donald Trump’s CIA Director Mike Pompeo looks dirtier in the Russia scandal by the minute"

http://www.palmerreport.com/opinion/donald-trump-cia-mike-pompeo-dirtier-minute/3541/ (http://www.palmerreport.com/opinion/donald-trump-cia-mike-pompeo-dirtier-minute/3541/)

Title: Re: Russiagate
Post by: Archimid on June 21, 2017, 06:39:00 PM
Homeland Security official: Russian government actors tried to hack election systems in 21 states

https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/national-security/homeland-security-official-russian-government-actors-potentially-tried-to-hack-election-systems-in-21-states/2017/06/21/33bf31d4-5686-11e7-ba90-f5875b7d1876_story.html (https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/national-security/homeland-security-official-russian-government-actors-potentially-tried-to-hack-election-systems-in-21-states/2017/06/21/33bf31d4-5686-11e7-ba90-f5875b7d1876_story.html)

Quote
Samuel Liles, the Department of Homeland Security’s acting director of the Office of Intelligence and Analysis Cyber Division, said vote tallying mechanisms were unaffected, and the hackers appeared to be scanning for vulnerabilities — which Liles likened to walking down the street and looking at homes to see who might be inside.

But hackers successfully exploited a “small number” of networks, Liles said, likening the act to making it through a home’s front door.
Title: Re: Russiagate
Post by: Buddy on June 21, 2017, 10:11:40 PM
Note:  Three things are currently happening.....

1). President Bannon is trying to blow things up.  Donnie isn't governing.....President Bannon is.  And he wants to blow things up.  This could be a help to Donnie.....as it will distract from the ongoing drumbeat of things that are being uncovered between Donnie and the Russians....and Donnie and the mob(s) (US and Russian).

2). Fossil fuel companies are trying to extend their life.  Tillerson, Rick Perry, and others in the cabinet and administration are more than happy to help.

3). Donnie is trying to enrich his family as much as possible.....and he has a lot of help in Congress to do so.  A LOT.  More than you will ever know.  And Donnie is going to HAVE to get the FBI investigation shut down.....otherwise they will ruin his financial corruption that is now taking place.

Fortunately for Donnie.....he has a mouthpiece that is all too willing to continue to lie for him:  FOX News.  They really are a lot like TASS is for Russia....and FOX will continue to help him spread his lies and put him in the best light possible.

Interesting bedfellows for sure....

Title: Re: Russiagate
Post by: AbruptSLR on June 22, 2017, 01:19:43 AM
Just who in Trump's close circle isn't under investigation now?

"Kellyanne Conway is under investigation for Russia ties"

http://www.palmerreport.com/politics/kellyanne-conway-investigation-russia-ties/3549/ (http://www.palmerreport.com/politics/kellyanne-conway-investigation-russia-ties/3549/)

Title: Re: Russiagate
Post by: AbruptSLR on June 22, 2017, 01:34:25 AM
Finally, Congress is questioning whether Kushner's security clearance should be revoked:

"Democrats Seek Records On Jared Kushner As Administration Tries To Stifle Oversight"

http://www.npr.org/2017/06/21/533822177/democrats-seek-records-on-jared-kushner-as-administration-tries-to-stifle-oversi (http://www.npr.org/2017/06/21/533822177/democrats-seek-records-on-jared-kushner-as-administration-tries-to-stifle-oversi)

"Democrats on the House Oversight Committee want to see White House records on the president's son-in-law, Jared Kushner, his security clearance and his access to classified information.

In a letter to White House chief of staff Reince Priebus, the oversight panel's 18 Democrats question why Kushner's security clearance hasn't been revoked."
Title: Re: Russiagate
Post by: AbruptSLR on June 23, 2017, 01:31:00 PM
The WP article discusses Obama's efforts to punish Russia for Putin's assault on the 2016 election.  Now Trump is encouraging Russia and continuing to attack Obama:

"Obama’s secret struggle to punish Russia for Putin’s election assault"

https://www.washingtonpost.com/graphics/2017/world/national-security/obama-putin-election-hacking/?utm_term=.227e42df84bf (https://www.washingtonpost.com/graphics/2017/world/national-security/obama-putin-election-hacking/?utm_term=.227e42df84bf)

Extract: "Early last August, an envelope with extraordinary handling restrictions arrived at the White House. Sent by courier from the CIA, it carried “eyes only” instructions that its contents be shown to just four people: President Barack Obama and three senior aides.

Inside was an intelligence bombshell, a report drawn from sourcing deep inside the Russian government that detailed Russian President Vladimir Putin’s direct involvement in a cyber campaign to disrupt and discredit the U.S. presidential race.

But it went further. The intelligence captured Putin’s specific instructions on the operation’s audacious objectives — defeat or at least damage the Democratic nominee, Hillary Clinton, and help elect her opponent, Donald Trump."
Title: Re: Russiagate
Post by: pileus on June 23, 2017, 05:32:06 PM
The WP article discusses Obama's efforts to punish Russia for Putin's assault on the 2016 election.  Now Trump is encouraging Russia and continuing to attack Obama:

"Obama’s secret struggle to punish Russia for Putin’s election assault"

https://www.washingtonpost.com/graphics/2017/world/national-security/obama-putin-election-hacking/?utm_term=.227e42df84bf (https://www.washingtonpost.com/graphics/2017/world/national-security/obama-putin-election-hacking/?utm_term=.227e42df84bf)

Extract: "Early last August, an envelope with extraordinary handling restrictions arrived at the White House. Sent by courier from the CIA, it carried “eyes only” instructions that its contents be shown to just four people: President Barack Obama and three senior aides.

Inside was an intelligence bombshell, a report drawn from sourcing deep inside the Russian government that detailed Russian President Vladimir Putin’s direct involvement in a cyber campaign to disrupt and discredit the U.S. presidential race.

But it went further. The intelligence captured Putin’s specific instructions on the operation’s audacious objectives — defeat or at least damage the Democratic nominee, Hillary Clinton, and help elect her opponent, Donald Trump."

A lot to unpack in that comprehensive article.  I would encourage everyone to read it from start to finish.  It only adds credence to and a sense of despair over the successful attack on American sovereignty by Vladimir Putin and the Russian intelligence apparatus.  It should be considered an act of war.  It's clear that President Obama failed to use his powers to act in defense of the US and instead deferred to optics and pressure from Mitch McConnell.  Shameful.  Even more shameful are the actions of the key players on the Repuboican side, including McConnell and up through Donald Trump.  They are traitors to the idea of American democracy and sovereignty.  Self interest, greed, and party over country.
Title: Re: Russiagate
Post by: Buddy on June 23, 2017, 08:08:56 PM
Months ago I said that Trump would continue to use FOX as his mouthpiece more and more....almost as his exclusive news (albeit fake news) outlet.  We're still moving in that direction...but the REAL news outlets are going to ramp up their calling out the lies of Trump more and more.  They still aren't calling out Donnie's pundits as liars to their face, but the WILL get there over coming weeks and months.

Donnie and his cronies have an IMMENCE capacity to lie.....the Sec of Defence is the only person with any real measure of ethics.

Look for the real press to ramp up their efforts in coming weeks/months, as it becomes clearer and clearer that the corruption goes much deeper and broader than expected....and starts to implicate more folks in the Senate and House.....not just Donnie and his close advisors.



Title: Re: Russiagate
Post by: Buddy on June 23, 2017, 08:19:11 PM
Some of you folks might br surprised that Trey Gowdy isn't investigating some of the schenanigans in RussiaGate.  You shouldn't be surprised.

If I had no ethics....and I was trying to help in the coverup like Trey Gowdy...I wouldn't help either.  The last thing I would want to do is any investigation that implicates myself.😚

Gowdy is just another in a growing list that of folks who will eventually be caught up...as long as the investigation is allowed to finish....  I would expect him to continue to provide cover.

Title: Re: Russiagate
Post by: AbruptSLR on June 24, 2017, 04:15:50 PM
For those who fall prey to Trump's reality bending BS, ask yourself why Trump's campaign and the Kremlin were always saying the same thing to attack a fellow American in order to disrupt order to the benefit of kleptocrats around the world.

Title: “Everyone piles on after Donald Trump slips up and admits Russia rigged the election for him”

http://www.palmerreport.com/politics/everyone-donald-trump-admits-russia-rigged-election/3602/ (http://www.palmerreport.com/politics/everyone-donald-trump-admits-russia-rigged-election/3602/)

Extract: “Counterintelligence expert Clint Watts also hit back: “Maybe Obama admin trying to figure out why you & Kremlin were saying the same things at the same time while election hacks were occurring. Or maybe they were trying to figure out why you would cite Russian false propaganda to mislead Americans and attack a fellow American.”“
Title: Re: Russiagate
Post by: SteveMDFP on June 24, 2017, 04:49:08 PM
There's a veritable flood of news reporting today about the details of Putin's meddling in the US election.
Some here have pointed out that most of the news is the conclusions of intelligence and investigative agencies, not detailed facts on which such conclusions might be based.  The same voices cite the example of Saddam Hussein's alleged WMDs to show that intelligence findings can't be taken at face value.

There's a grain of truth to those concerns, but only a grain.  When the relevant core facts are obtained by intelligence agencies, these facts are generally classified.  They can't legally be reported to the public, only leaks of classified information and conclusions of the agencies ever become public.  We have those in some abundance.  It's the most solid basis the public *can* have for drawing conclusions.

Further, the Iraqi WMD matter was quite different.  The conclusion that WMDs existed was *never* a consensus conclusion of intelligence agencies, it was an idea formulated and pushed by the White House.  Bush Jr. took specious "evidence" to create an obviously false narrative (see e.g., "yellow cake" and "aluminum tubes" and a specified "biological weapons lab" that wasn't even in territory controlled by Saddam).

This is a totally different situation.  Professional, non-partisan, career intelligence agency heads have a consensus view that Putin meddled in the election.  That's as close to being an undeniable fact as anyone *can* have in such a matter.  For details, see:

 Evidence is mounting that Russia took 4 clear paths to meddle in the US election
http://www.businessinsider.com/evidence-russia-meddled-in-us-election-2017-6 (http://www.businessinsider.com/evidence-russia-meddled-in-us-election-2017-6)

Election Hackers Altered Voter Rolls, Stole Private Data, Officials Say
http://time.com/4828306/russian-hacking-election-widespread-private-data/ (http://time.com/4828306/russian-hacking-election-widespread-private-data/)

Russians targeted 21 election systems, U.S. official says
http://time.com/4828306/russian-hacking-election-widespread-private-data/ (http://time.com/4828306/russian-hacking-election-widespread-private-data/)

Cyberattacks – why is the US so vulnerable? This is the big question Congressional Russia probes should be asking
http://www.foxnews.com/opinion/2017/06/22/cyberattacks-why-is-us-so-vulnerable-this-is-big-question-congressional-russia-probes-should-be-asking.html (http://www.foxnews.com/opinion/2017/06/22/cyberattacks-why-is-us-so-vulnerable-this-is-big-question-congressional-russia-probes-should-be-asking.html)
Title: Re: Russiagate
Post by: AbruptSLR on June 24, 2017, 06:10:03 PM
When atomic scientists warn us all about the dangers of falling under the reality bending (brainwashing) spell of the kleptocrats that control the populists, it is time to listen (see the image of the relationship of Trump, the novel/movie "The Manchurian Candidate" and populist brainwashing):

http://thebulletin.org/trumping-manchurian-candidate10848 (http://thebulletin.org/trumping-manchurian-candidate10848)

Extract: "Both novel and film focus on brainwashing and its potential for skewing US politics. (Brainwashing back then was a new term in English, a literal translation of a Chinese phrase.) In both novel and film, scientists from the Soviet Union collude with their Red Chinese counterparts to turn an American soldier, Sgt. Raymond Shaw, into a killing machine, one whose ultimate job will be to assassinate the American president.

But the number one villain of the piece is Shaw’s own mother, indelibly played in the 1962 film version by Angela Lansbury—for which she was named one of the top 25 cinema villains in Time. It is she, as the “American operative” working hand-in-glove with Communist masterminds, who will direct the mission intended to hand the reins of national power to her new husband, the buffoonish vice-presidential candidate. (She chillingly sums up the plot’s goal as “rallying a nation of viewers to hysteria, to sweep us up into the White House with powers that will make martial law seem like anarchy.”) Though her stated political views are conservative and overtly anti-Communist, she is in fact ruled by a pragmatic determination to serve herself, even at her country’s expense. The derailing of her plot by the end of the story means we don’t know just how far she was prepared to go, but her steadfast exaltation of self above the public’s interests suggests a clear and present danger to the people of the world.

Sound familiar?

One overall message of The Manchurian Candidate is that Russia and its allies are not to be trusted. Nor should we trust those who make nice with the Russians for their own personal gain.  The striking thing about Lansbury’s character, Mrs. John Yerkes Iselin, is the way she plays both sides of the street. As the ambitious wife of a lackluster politician (in an era when a woman could only aspire to be the power behind the throne), she has carefully molded her spouse into a populist, a chap whose amiable mediocrity is attractive to the common man. Then she plays the anti-Communism card: Soon Senator Iselin is grabbing headlines with sweeping McCarthy-esque allegations about the number of Reds in the State Department. Underneath it all, though, Mrs. Iselin is using covert Soviet tools to undermine an American presidential election. The fact that her own son, Sgt. Shaw, is to be the assassin is something she accepts with equanimity.

There’s little sense, thank goodness, that our current administration is made up of murderous stooges whose brains are addled (or, in Condon’s term, “dry-cleaned”) to this degree. Rather, the Trumpians who hold the reins of power seem to feel that they’re clear-eyed patriots mandated to shake up a moribund system by inventing rules of conduct as they go along. In their own minds, they’re independent thinkers. Still, it’s entirely possible they can be tripped up or compromised by forces much too subtle to reveal their true intentions. After all, there’s more than one way to be duped—or to dupe oneself.

Although The Manchurian Candidate is by no means an exact prediction of what is happening today, book and film are starting to look extremely prescient. In the course of the story, the mechanism used to control the actions of the brainwashed Sgt. Shaw is the Queen of Diamonds in an ordinary deck of playing cards. Whenever Shaw (Laurence Harvey in the film) threatens to exert his own independence, a voice on the phone suggests that he pass the time with a little game of Solitaire. As soon as he turns up the Queen, he’s under the thumb of whomever issues a firm command. Right now the Queen of Diamonds seems to be running rampant in Washington, DC. And basic democratic principles are being trumped by the man with the loudest voice."
Title: Re: Russiagate
Post by: AbruptSLR on June 24, 2017, 09:50:51 PM
As the President of the United States may well be a criminal and may be working to replace "Rule by Law" with "Rule by Man"; I thought that that it might be helpful to provide a link to the Wikipedia article on criminology, so that we can better appreciate what society should consider to address such likely criminal behavior:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Criminology

Title: Re: Russiagate
Post by: Archimid on June 24, 2017, 11:21:03 PM
To me the answer to this question is obvious. To Trump, the answer to this question is a mystery.  He lacks the ethical knowledge to understand the problem.

Trump on Russian election meddling: Focus on Obama administration

http://www.politico.com/story/2017/06/24/trump-obama-russia-election-meddling-239927 (http://www.politico.com/story/2017/06/24/trump-obama-russia-election-meddling-239927)

Quote
On Friday night, he also wrote: "Just out: The Obama Administration knew far in advance of November 8th about election meddling by Russia. Did nothing about it. WHY?"
Title: Re: Russiagate
Post by: MrVisible on June 24, 2017, 11:31:55 PM
Some excellent context here:

How An Entire Nation Became Russia's Test Lab for Cyberwar (https://www.wired.com/story/russian-hackers-attack-ukraine/amp)
Title: Re: Russiagate
Post by: AbruptSLR on June 25, 2017, 03:38:07 PM
Per the linked Palmer Report article, Adam Schiff stated that he believes that it is legal to criminally prosecute POTUS, within the Federal judicial system.  Go Mueller!:

"Adam Schiff has something up his sleeve, hints at Donald Trump being prosecuted for his crimes"

http://www.palmerreport.com/politics/adam-schiff-there-is-no-legal-prohibition-against-prosecuting-donald-trump/3614/ (http://www.palmerreport.com/politics/adam-schiff-there-is-no-legal-prohibition-against-prosecuting-donald-trump/3614/)

Extract: "Schiff, who has past experience as a prosecutor, just said the following: “My view is there’s no legal prohibition on prosecuting a President of the United States.” "
Title: Re: Russiagate
Post by: budmantis on June 25, 2017, 06:14:51 PM
Per the linked Palmer Report article, Adam Schiff stated that he believes that it is legal to criminally prosecute POTUS, within the Federal judicial system.  Go Mueller!:

"Adam Schiff has something up his sleeve, hints at Donald Trump being prosecuted for his crimes"

http://www.palmerreport.com/politics/adam-schiff-there-is-no-legal-prohibition-against-prosecuting-donald-trump/3614/ (http://www.palmerreport.com/politics/adam-schiff-there-is-no-legal-prohibition-against-prosecuting-donald-trump/3614/)

Extract: "Schiff, who has past experience as a prosecutor, just said the following: “My view is there’s no legal prohibition on prosecuting a President of the United States.” "

I read your posts on this thread with great interest ASLR, but I question just how objective Rep. Schiff is on this matter.

BudM
Title: Re: Russiagate
Post by: AbruptSLR on June 25, 2017, 09:31:15 PM
I read your posts on this thread with great interest ASLR, but I question just how objective Rep. Schiff is on this matter.

BudM

When you have been wronged, and you go to trial, do you want your attorney to be your advocate?  The two party system works by both sides advocating their respective constituents and we all hope that consequently the system stays in balance.  As per the US Constitution, impeachment is a political act, I most certainly hope that Schiff advocates on the side of the Democrats (and don't even try to imply that the GOP operates without bias, especially after Mitch McConnell's behavior).

Best,
ASLR

Edit: If you are looking for impartiality, you can hold Bob Mueller to that standard.
Title: Re: Russiagate
Post by: SteveMDFP on June 25, 2017, 09:32:34 PM
Per the linked Palmer Report article, Adam Schiff stated that he believes that it is legal to criminally prosecute POTUS, within the Federal judicial system.  Go Mueller!:

"Adam Schiff has something up his sleeve, hints at Donald Trump being prosecuted for his crimes"

http://www.palmerreport.com/politics/adam-schiff-there-is-no-legal-prohibition-against-prosecuting-donald-trump/3614/ (http://www.palmerreport.com/politics/adam-schiff-there-is-no-legal-prohibition-against-prosecuting-donald-trump/3614/)

Extract: "Schiff, who has past experience as a prosecutor, just said the following: “My view is there’s no legal prohibition on prosecuting a President of the United States.” "

I read your posts on this thread with great interest ASLR, but I question just how objective Rep. Schiff is on this matter.

BudM

Schiff's position makes perfect sense to me.  There is no constitutional immunity granted to the President for criminal acts.  True, only Congress can impeach, but that's a process for removal, not for criminal prosecution.

During Watergate, some officials felt that prosecution of a sitting President was precluded by the disruption to Presidential duties.  It seems clear that an active investigation (which is permitted) is itself quite disruptive, and a prosecution after investigation would not excessively add to that disruption.  None of these quasi-judicial opinions have been weighed in an actual court.

Really, I think the reluctance to prosecute a sitting President couldn't possibly hold if, for example, a President were videotaped murdering someone in the Oval office.  Thus, whether or not a President could be prosecuted would depend on the severity of the crime and quality of evidence.  A speeding ticket should be set aside, RICO violations, not so much.
Title: Re: Russiagate
Post by: AbruptSLR on June 25, 2017, 09:37:39 PM
Really, I think the reluctance to prosecute a sitting President couldn't possibly hold if, for example, a President were videotaped murdering someone in the Oval office.  Thus, whether or not a President could be prosecuted would depend on the severity of the crime and quality of evidence.  A speeding ticket should be set aside, RICO violations, not so much.

While I do not have access to the evidence that Mueller has, I highly suspect that Trump has at least committed RICO violations, and likely other high crimes.
Title: Re: Russiagate
Post by: AbruptSLR on June 25, 2017, 09:54:26 PM
If he has sufficient evidence, it might be good if Mueller were to prosecute Trump on criminal charges, just so the SCOTUS can make a ruling on this point of law:

"Can a sitting president be indicted? The Constitution doesn't give a definitive answer"

http://www.abajournal.com/news/article/can_a_sitting_president_be_indicted_the_constitution_doesnt_give_a_definiti (http://www.abajournal.com/news/article/can_a_sitting_president_be_indicted_the_constitution_doesnt_give_a_definiti)

Extract: "The U.S. Supreme Court has never decided whether a president may be criminally prosecuted while in office, and the U.S. Constitution doesn’t give a direct answer."
Title: Re: Russiagate
Post by: Archimid on June 25, 2017, 10:42:38 PM
My layman opinion is that the president can certainly be prosecuted and even found guilty. The thing is that the president has the power of pardon and he can certainly pardon himself. He can also pardon all his accomplices.  To be removed from office congress must use his impeachment powers.
Title: Re: Russiagate
Post by: budmantis on June 26, 2017, 12:43:35 AM
I read your posts on this thread with great interest ASLR, but I question just how objective Rep. Schiff is on this matter.

BudM

When you have been wronged, and you go to trial, do you want your attorney to be your advocate?  The two party system works by both sides advocating their respective constituents and we all hope that consequently the system stays in balance.  As per the US Constitution, impeachment is a political act, I most certainly hope that Schiff advocates on the side of the Democrats (and don't even try to imply that the GOP operates without bias, especially after Mitch McConnell's behavior).

Best,
ASLR

Edit: If you are looking for impartiality, you can hold Bob Mueller to that standard.

I question the wisdom of Schiff's assertions made at this time. I just don't see it as productive. No doubt in my mind that Trump is a crook and is involved to some degree, (perhaps a very large degree!) with Russiagate. I do trust Mueller and look forward to finding out the results of his inquiry. That will be a good time to discuss legal actions and impeachment.

Regards,

BudM
Title: Re: Russiagate
Post by: AbruptSLR on June 26, 2017, 03:01:02 AM

I question the wisdom of Schiff's assertions made at this time. I just don't see it as productive. No doubt in my mind that Trump is a crook and is involved to some degree, (perhaps a very large degree!) with Russiagate. I do trust Mueller and look forward to finding out the results of his inquiry. That will be a good time to discuss legal actions and impeachment.

Regards,

BudM

I think the point is that Ryan & McConnell might protect Trump by suppressing the public release of Mueller's report and refusing to initiate impeachment proceedings even if the report has evidence of Trump's guilt.  Thus as a Special Counsel has the power to form grand juries, Mueller could initiate a public trial thus getting around GOP politics.
Title: Re: Russiagate
Post by: Buddy on June 26, 2017, 03:09:16 AM
You have to understand that much of this "battle" that we refer to as RussiaGate....plays out in the eyes of PUBLIC PERCEPTION.  Donnie and his folks....and FOX News....are well aware that.  If they lose the PUBLIC via the polls....they lose.

I have no problem with what Shiff as said regarding the investigation.  He's a successful prosecutor...and NOT an over the top prosecutor.  He knows the parameters.

Mueller's investigation is going to take time....I think most of you can now see just how complex and broad this investigation has become.  Some of Donnies folks will CONTINUE to try and get this shut down....especially those that are ALREADY caught up in its web.

There is a LOT of financial schenanigans to wade through.  A LOT.
Title: Re: Russiagate
Post by: AbruptSLR on June 26, 2017, 03:16:54 AM
The linked article reviews some of the ways that Mueller's investigation could be short-circuited by either Team Trump and/or the Congressional GOP leadership:

"No, We Can’t Rely On The Special Counsel To Uncover The Cover-Up"

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/no-we-cant-rely-on-the-special-counsel-to-uncover_us_593ae740e4b0b65670e569fd (http://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/no-we-cant-rely-on-the-special-counsel-to-uncover_us_593ae740e4b0b65670e569fd)

Extract: "There’s no guarantee that Mueller will be allowed to complete his investigation, or that his findings will be disclosed if he does."
Title: Re: Russiagate
Post by: AbruptSLR on June 26, 2017, 03:49:19 AM
The linked article discusses some of the limits of Mueller's powers:

Title: "The powers and limits of Robert Mueller's new job as special counsel"

http://www.cbsnews.com/news/the-powers-and-limits-of-robert-muellers-new-job-as-special-counsel/ (http://www.cbsnews.com/news/the-powers-and-limits-of-robert-muellers-new-job-as-special-counsel/)

Extract: "Q. What are a special counsel's powers?

A. Under Justice Department regulations, a special counsel has all the authority of a U.S. attorney, including the ability to initiate investigations, subpoena records and bring criminal charges. One difference, however: Special counsels get to choose whether they inform the Justice Department what they're up to. Before taking "significant" actions, however, the special counsel must notify the attorney general.

Q. Will the results of the investigation become public?

A. Not necessarily. When a special counsel closes shop, he or she must give the attorney general a confidential report explaining the decision to bring charges or drop the matter. The attorney general would have to notify Congress of the conclusion, but can decide whether to make the special counsel's report public."
Title: Re: Russiagate
Post by: AbruptSLR on June 26, 2017, 03:20:44 PM
Trump is now blaming Obama for this collusion because Obama did not stop Putin:

"Sean Hannity just gave away that proof of collusion between Donald Trump and Russia is about to surface"

http://www.palmerreport.com/opinion/fox-news-just-gave-away-expects-donald-trump-russia-collusion-news-break-soon/3629/ (http://www.palmerreport.com/opinion/fox-news-just-gave-away-expects-donald-trump-russia-collusion-news-break-soon/3629/)

Extract: "Hannity flat out stated that if the Trump campaign asked Russia to release the emails it hacked and stole from the Democratic Party, then the whole thing was some kind of patriotic act, and not collusion.


In other words, Hannity is softening up his own audience for when the proof surfaces that the Trump campaign and Russia did collude on the stolen emails. Whether he’s been given the heads-up by Trump, or by the Russians, or by someone in the media, he knows that the proof is about to surface. It’s the same reason Trump is suddenly admitting Russia hacked the election, and trying to spin it into an Obama scandal. It’s also the same reason Russia is quickly taking Sergey Kislyak off the table: it wants him to no longer be the Russian Ambassador when the proof surfaces that he engineered the collusion."
Title: Re: Russiagate
Post by: Neven on June 27, 2017, 10:16:52 AM
Is it true that there is this shift going on where people start to suggest (in the media) that maybe it's time to cut down on the Russia-Russia-Russia? This guy from Secular Talk says it's the Left's Benghazi.

Dem Reps Are Realizing Voters Dislike Their Russía Frenzy
! No longer available (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cr8EIqyCfg0#)

Title: Re: Russiagate
Post by: Buddy on June 27, 2017, 11:57:10 AM
If you look back at the articles and videos of 1973....people were growing weary of Watergate....little did they know there was another 14+ months of Watergate ahead of them.  That's the interesting thing about history:  Some people learn from it....and some people don't.  Donnie is clearly one of those that didn't learn.
Title: Re: Russiagate
Post by: Archimid on June 27, 2017, 02:02:06 PM
People must be getting tired of it, just like they are tired of hearing about climate change. That doesn't mean we should give up and let Climate Change / Russia  run us over.

The fact is that is clear that Russia interfered with the US election to a level that has never seen before and might have in fact tipped the election in the way it did.  Those are facts. Did Trump colluded with Russia?  Maybe, Maybe not. Even if he did he probably hid it very well. Did Trump's accomplices colluded with Russia? All the evidence seems to point out that yes, there was and there still is collusion with Russia.


Why this matters?  Because Russia and other countries are now heavily influencing policy in the US. This is good for Russia who gains influence, good for Trump and accomplices who enrich themselves but very bad for most American people. I truly hope the intelligence agencies can find actionable evidence, but I know that is highly unlikely. Trump is accomplished criminal who has always known how to avoid leaving evidence of his crimes. 

I've always believe that the ball is in the hands of the GOP. If they let Putin dictate American policy through Trump, then it is the end of the US as we know it.  From now on foreign governments will  establish back channels with the next presidents, that is now acceptable. From now on foreign governments can feel free to interfere with American elections. It has been established as an acceptable practice. The GOP has the power to stop this corruption, but they  have fallen for it themselves. It seems unlikely they will stop it.
Title: Re: Russiagate
Post by: TerryM on June 27, 2017, 03:13:31 PM
If you look back at the articles and videos of 1973....people were growing weary of Watergate....little did they know there was another 14+ months of Watergate ahead of them.  That's the interesting thing about history:  Some people learn from it....and some people don't.  Donnie is clearly one of those that didn't learn.
For many of us Watergate isn't history, it was the evening news. What's different about Watergate and Russiagate is that Watergate grew very slowly from an afterthought on the second page into a national news item that was on everyone's lips. Russiagate started with a huge bang, but is dying to a whimper.
The Republicans tried for a repeat by undercutting Bill Clinton's presidency with spurious charges that changed focus every few months for years. The public's reaction was to give Bill a second term which amazed and infuriated the Republicans.
If you keep pushing this you will end up with the public seeing Trump as the victim, and awarding him a second term. - that is what history shows.

We do know a few facts:
1) The NSA tracks and records everyone's phone calls and emails.
2) The NSA isn't offering up any recordings.

We all remember Vicky Neuman's famous phone call when she said "Fuck the Eu", it didn't take long to release the call, and no one ever denied that the call had been made. That's all the NSA would have to do to end the whole debate, and I have no doubt that this is exactly what the NSA would do if such a call had been made.

Remember when Feinstein stopped Wolf in his tracks by saying she'd just returned from a meeting with the CIA, and they had no evidence of collusion? That's when you should have moved on to the next talking point.

There are so many angles to attack Trump on, and this is probably the only one that has no legs. By continuing this particular attack you may force another 4 years of Trump on us, and I'm very unhappy about that possibility. TPTB seem far more interested in fomenting a war between Russia and the US than in getting rid of Trump. I'd much prefer seeing the end of Trump, peaceful relations with Russia, and a winning Democratic campaign in 2018 & 2020.

Terry
Title: Re: Russiagate
Post by: AbruptSLR on June 27, 2017, 03:21:42 PM
I've always believe that the ball is in the hands of the GOP. If they let Putin dictate American policy through Trump, then it is the end of the US as we know it.  From now on foreign governments will  establish back channels with the next presidents, that is now acceptable. From now on foreign governments can feel free to interfere with American elections. It has been established as an acceptable practice. The GOP has the power to stop this corruption, but they  have fallen for it themselves. It seems unlikely they will stop it.

While it is critical to keep working to hold the GOP accountable, I agree that it is unlikely that the GOP will improve their behavior regarding their promotion of kleptocracy in the US (& by extension to the world) and their denial of climate change.  As Trump would say: "Sad".
Title: Re: Russiagate
Post by: pileus on June 27, 2017, 04:18:43 PM
Anyone familiar with the term "wag the dog" will be paying attention over the coming days and weeks.

Last night the White House issued a brief statement indicating Syria was preparing for a chemical weapons attack.  US Central Command, the locus of US military leadership and strategy, was asked for comment and responded that they had "no idea" what the White House was talking about.

We will likely see offensive action against Syria in the coming days, which will only complicate an already strained situation on the ground and create massive risks given the involvement directly or via proxy of Russia and Iran in the regional conflicts.

Some here think Trump and his team are peacemakers.  On the contrary, their actions and rhetoric are inflaming volatile situations in the Middle East, and it will only worsen with time.  Trump is sending additional troops to Afghanistan, and some in the administration are pushing for regime change in Iran.  Trump's careless and ignorant statements regarding Qatar have deepened tensions among Gulf State nations including Saudi Arabia.

Military action and footage of exploding bombs on foreign soil can do wonders for a president's approval, and provide a convenient distraction from troubles and scandals at home.

Watch the dog, and watch it get wagged.
Title: Re: Russiagate
Post by: pileus on June 27, 2017, 04:48:59 PM
Is it true that there is this shift going on where people start to suggest (in the media) that maybe it's time to cut down on the Russia-Russia-Russia? This guy from Secular Talk says it's the Left's Benghazi.

Dem Reps Are Realizing Voters Dislike Their Russía Frenzy
! No longer available (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cr8EIqyCfg0#)

Sorry to disappoint you, but the Russia story is not fading away anytime soon.  There is conclusive evidence that Russia interfered in the 2016 US election.  Even Donald Trump and his state media apparatus at Fox are now acknowledging the intervention, but are of course blaming Obama and the Dems.  The remaining questions are of course the extent of collusion between Trump, his team, and Russian government officials.  This is precisely the subject of the ongoing investigations, and now in the domain of the recently appointed Special Counsel Mueller.  Let us not prejudge outcomes:  there may be findings of collusion, or there may be no findings.  Mueller is also looking at obstruction of justice and potential financial crimes.  So the "Russia story" will continue on, much to the dismay of the Putin Admiration Society here.

The other ongoing implication of the Russian intervention in 2016 is that the threat of interference remains for the 2018, 2020, and other elections.  All indications and reporting are that Donald Trump and his team are doing nothing about this, which is a dire risk to American sovereignty. 

The suggestion of parallels with Benghazi is an interesting choice.  Apples and oranges in terms of the specific situations and events.  But, the ongoing Benghazi investigations led to the discovery of Hillary Clinton's use of a private email server.  Which of course became a central issue in the presidential campaign and was a factor in her Electoral College defeat in the General Election.  Republicans, in fact, were richly rewarded from their investments in the Benghazi affair. 
Title: Re: Russiagate
Post by: pileus on June 27, 2017, 05:31:04 PM
Readers here would do well to take the dezinformatsiya being posted by active members of the Putin Admiration society with a large grain of humanely and sustainably harvested sea salt.

Democratic enthusiasm and engagement, especially among the Evil Corporate Faction, is through the roof and bodes well for 2018 (assuming there are still open elections and we have not completely submitted to Russian control by then).  And all indications are that Trump will be a one term president, if not a less than one termer depending on the outcome of Special Counsel Mueller's work.

MSNBC Is Growing 3 Times Faster Than Fox News As Americans Wake Up And Take Their Country Back

http://www.politicususa.com/2017/06/26/msnbc-growing-3-times-faster-fox-news-americans-wake-country.html?utm_source=dlvr.it&utm_medium=twitter (http://www.politicususa.com/2017/06/26/msnbc-growing-3-times-faster-fox-news-americans-wake-country.html?utm_source=dlvr.it&utm_medium=twitter)

As the American people get more engaged and look for factual news and information, they are increasingly turning to MSNBC as the Rachel Maddow led network is growing three times faster in total viewers than Fox News in primetime.

Here are the numbers via a statement from MSNBC to PoliticusUSA, “In weekday prime, MSNBC beat CNN in total viewers for the 5th straight quarter and ranked #2 among all cable networks. MSNBC prime finished the quarter with 2.1 million viewers, a record for MSNBC and besting CNN’s highest quarter ever -1.9 million viewers in 4Q08. This is MSNBC’s highest cable news universe share ever and the 1st time it delivered more than 2 million viewers. MSNBC has added more viewers in weekday prime than any other cable network in the past year – 1 million, nearly tripling the #2 network in growth – FOX News.”

This could be called a Trump Effect. As the President has cozied up to Fox News while his administration is mired in the Russia scandal, MSNBC has delivered news based coverage with a primetime lineup that has focused on the many scandals of the current White House. The MSNBC growth can also be viewed as part of the public backlash against the Trump administration. Trump’s victory energized a part of the country that had been disengaged since President Obama won reelection in 2012.
-------------
What we learned from the Virginia primary

http://www.politico.com/story/2017/06/14/virginia-primary-gillespie-northam-239530 (http://www.politico.com/story/2017/06/14/virginia-primary-gillespie-northam-239530)

The number of ballots cast stunned operatives on both sides: Democratic turnout skyrocketed, reaching nearly 170 percent more than the last time there was a contested primary in 2009.
--
One defining characteristic of the Trump era has been the consistently surprising energy from Democrats eager to oppose him. That’s true among activists and also in states that have held elections this year. The high Democratic turnout on Tuesday continued a trend that was highlighted last week in New Jersey — where the party primary attracted higher-than-expected turnout even though the race wasn’t competitive.

Tuesday’s vote attracted well over a half-million Democratic votes, blowing past the party’s last competitive primary in Virginia, when 320,000 Democratic voters showed up.
----------------
The graphic below shows Democratic Party performance vs expectations in the recent special elections.  Average overperformance is 8%, which suggests up to 80 Republican held seats may be in play for the 2018 midterms.


Title: Re: Russiagate
Post by: Martin Gisser on June 27, 2017, 06:13:54 PM
...

The suggestion of parallels with Benghazi is an interesting choice.  Apples and oranges in terms of the specific situations and events.  But, the ongoing Benghazi investigations led to the discovery of Hillary Clinton's use of a private email server.  Which of course became a central issue in the presidential campaign and was a factor in her Electoral College defeat in the General Election.  Republicans, in fact, were richly rewarded from their investments in the Benghazi affair.
Yes, very interesting. Quoting the Benghazi nothingburger has the strong odor of a R talking point. A meme perhaps bred at Fox News or Breitbart or why not in a Russian infowar lab, or (sorry I cant help this) a D political suicide commando. :-)
Title: Re: Russiagate
Post by: AbruptSLR on June 28, 2017, 01:31:14 AM
It looks like even if Pence were to pardon Trump, Trump could still go to prison for violation of state laws:

The linked Palmer Report article is entitled: "Report: member of Donald Trump’s inner circle says Trump is going to prison"

http://www.palmerreport.com/politics/report-donald-trump-is-going-to-prison/3639/ (http://www.palmerreport.com/politics/report-donald-trump-is-going-to-prison/3639/)

Extract: "In addition to whatever crimes he may have committed in the name of colluding with Russia to rig the election, Donald Trump has also now committed obstruction of justice and witness tampering in broad daylight – and this comes even as his shady finances are being picked apart by investigators. Now comes inside word that even one of Trump’s own close associates believes Trump will end up in prison when it’s all said and done."
Title: Re: Russiagate
Post by: SteveMDFP on June 28, 2017, 02:29:05 AM
I think it's a fair assertion that the MEDIA are hyper-focusing on Russiagate.

I see no evidence that *Democrats* on the whole are excessively focused on it.

We plainly won't see the evidence that Mueller has gathered until indictments are issued.  Until then, it's absurdly premature to claim that there's "no evidence."  That kind of assertion comes from Fox News, not a rational observer.

Meanwhile, the actions of Democrats right now are hyper-focused on derailing the Senate bill to repeal ObamaCare, gut Medicaid, and transfer many billions to the wealthiest.

No, the Democratic leadership is not just as bad as the Republicans.  In fact, they seem to be doing pretty well.
Title: Re: Russiagate
Post by: Zeug Gezeugt on June 28, 2017, 10:48:52 AM
Russiagate's evidentiary trail so far:

No evidence of Russian 'intervention'.
No evidence of Trump 'collusion'.
No evidence of Trump 'obstruction'.

No actual evidence whatsoever has been presented anywhere, the entire imbroglio is based on hearsay, anonymous sources and politically charged polemics.

This still looks to me like neocon driven domestic regime change to supplant a president who initially challenged the US war industry focus on crushing all potential geopolitical competitors, primarily Russia and China.

McCarthyism for the 21st C.

And I'm still appalled that otherwise intelligent people here are capable of being manipulated so blatantly into supporting militarised propaganda against nuclear armed Russia just because a section of your oligarchy makes a literal killing from war!

Your entire political process is a red/blue oligarchic scam while the world is burning up and you're in a lather about Russkies under the bed!?
Title: Re: Russiagate
Post by: Buddy on June 28, 2017, 01:45:10 PM
What Zeug is saying may be right.  What we should do here in the US is to show all the results of the investigation BEFORE we actually do the investigation.  We should SHOW the proof BEFORE we do the investigation.

I don't understand why I didn't see that myself.  That makes perfect sense.  I feel so embarrassed that I missed something that is so obvious. :o :o
Title: Re: Russiagate
Post by: pileus on June 28, 2017, 06:27:31 PM
Testimony from the Senate Intel Committee in the snip below.  Bios of the individual below.  Of course since this is not on Jimmy Dore or zerohedge the we know that some will reject this or simply call them bitter Corporate Democrats.

Ambassador Nicholas Burns
Roy and Barbara Goodman Family Professor of the Practice of Diplomacy and International Relations
Harvard Kennedy School of Government

Director Janis Sarts
Director of NATO Strategic Communication Center of Excellence
NATO Strategic Communication Center of Excellence

Ambassador Vesko Garcevic
Professor of the Practice of Diplomacy and International Relations
Frederick Pardee School of Global Studies, Boston University

Dr. Constanze Stelzenmueller
Bosch Senior Fellow
Brookings Institution

Title: Re: Russiagate
Post by: AbruptSLR on June 28, 2017, 07:51:24 PM
Trump is about to find out that love of money is the root of all evil, due to the Treasury's investigation of his money laundering of Russian funds:

"Donald Trump is going down for Russian money laundering, and now there’s nothing he can do to stop it"

http://www.palmerreport.com/opinion/donald-trump-going-down-russian-money-laundering/3652/ (http://www.palmerreport.com/opinion/donald-trump-going-down-russian-money-laundering/3652/)

Extract: "A funny thing happened last night: the United States Treasury Department gave in. For months it had been trying to fend off the Senate Intelligence Committee’s attempts at getting its hands on the records pertaining to a 2015 money laundering bust of Donald Trump’s Taj Mahal casino. But now the Treasury has finally caved, giving up the documents that will lead to Donald Trump’s demise, both as a president and as a free man."
Title: Re: Russiagate
Post by: AbruptSLR on June 29, 2017, 03:43:40 AM
Trump's Senate GOP allies are demanding that the FBI's closely guarded details of their investigate of the Trump campaign in the 2016 election.  This indicates that the GOP appears to be doing everything that they can to disrupt the FBI's investigation:

"Grassley, Graham want the FBI’s Russia surveillance warrants"

http://www.politico.com/story/2017/06/28/chuck-grassley-lindsey-graham-fbi-russia-surveillance-240049 (http://www.politico.com/story/2017/06/28/chuck-grassley-lindsey-graham-fbi-russia-surveillance-240049)

Extract: "Senate Judiciary Committee Chairman Chuck Grassley and panel member Lindsey Graham are asking the FBI to turn over some closely guarded secrets: its applications for warrants to spy on people suspected of helping Russia meddle in last year’s presidential election."
Title: Re: Russiagate
Post by: Archimid on June 29, 2017, 03:45:53 AM
NSA director frustrated Trump won't accept Russia interfered in election: report

http://thehill.com/homenews/administration/339929-nsa-director-frustrated-trump-wont-accept-russia-interfered-in (http://thehill.com/homenews/administration/339929-nsa-director-frustrated-trump-wont-accept-russia-interfered-in)


Quote
National Security Agency (NSA) Director Mike Rogers is frustrated that he has not yet convinced President Trump that U.S. intelligence indicates Russia interfered in the 2016 presidential election, CNN reported Wednesday.

Rogers vented frustration over his fruitless efforts to lawmakers during a recent closed-door briefing on Capitol Hill, a congressional source familiar with the meeting told the news network.



Is it Ego that stops Trump from believing he is an unknowing Russian puppet?  Is it I possible for him to accept that many of his advisors were speaking Putin's will and he was so incredibly dumb that he didn't know it? Does he has a Plan B that don't involve manaforte and Flynn weasel advise?

 Or has he known all along and is now lying in an attempt to cover up his many dark dealings? If he can convince enough people that nothing happened, the american justice system is useless. He can pardon himself.
Title: Re: Russiagate
Post by: AbruptSLR on June 29, 2017, 08:02:54 AM
The FBI is investigating Team Trump for running catfishing schemes during the 2016 election:

"FBI is investigating Donald Trump campaign for running catfishing scheme on anti-Trump operatives"

http://www.palmerreport.com/politics/fbi-investigating-donald-trump-team-running-catfishing-scheme/3658/ (http://www.palmerreport.com/politics/fbi-investigating-donald-trump-team-running-catfishing-scheme/3658/)

Extract: "It turns out the FBI is investigating the Donald Trump team for more than just election collusion with the Russians. The FBI has been investigating a catfishing scheme which Trump’s political allies were using to target Republican operatives who were on Trump’s bad side during the election. This investigation is now being publicly confirmed by one of the targets of the scheme."
Title: Re: Russiagate
Post by: Jim Pettit on June 29, 2017, 01:29:11 PM
Russiagate started with a huge bang, but is dying to a whimper.

This seems to be the common right wing take these days, doesn't it? You know: there's an ongoing deep and expanding investigation looking into whether the current administration colluded with a foreign enemy to subvert our democratic process and just how much Trump and his team have worked to obstruct that investigation, but public hearings aren't being broadcast every afternoon so therefore the investigation is "dying".

They only wish.

Mueller is amassing a formidable team. Not with the intent of "punishing" Trump, but with the intent of getting at the truth. And I think those who care about both America and that truth are willing to give Mueller the time and resources he needs to sort out what's what. We simply cannot allow TPTB to walk up to the edge of treason just to gain power. Period.

Remember when Nixon told America that we deserve to know if our President is a crook? We still deserve that.

If you keep pushing this you will end up with the public seeing Trump as the victim, and awarding him a second term. - that is what history shows.

Is it possible that there are enough stupid people around to vote again for that arrogant imbecile because they feel sorry for him? Maybe; stranger things have happened. But the way I look at it is this: if this nation is dumb enough to allow hostile foreign entities to call the shots, then we deserve Trump. IOW, the battle and the race is already lost.
Title: Re: Russiagate
Post by: magnamentis on June 29, 2017, 02:22:17 PM

If you keep pushing this you will end up with the public seeing Trump as the victim, and awarding him a second term. - that is what history shows.

Is it possible that there are enough stupid people around to vote again for that arrogant imbecile because they feel sorry for him? Maybe; stranger things have happened. But the way I look at it is this: if this nation is dumb enough to allow hostile foreign entities to call the shots, then we deserve Trump. IOW, the battle and the race is already lost.

unfortunately that's how it is, i as a foreigner would not dare to say that too often but yes, people get the governments they deserve and what you say i said the first time after the re-election of GWB for his second term, despite all the lies and knowing who (dicky and his halliburton etc. group) was pulling the strings really.
Title: Re: Russiagate
Post by: Neven on June 29, 2017, 02:41:52 PM
Quote
This seems to be the common right wing take these days, doesn't it? You know: there's an ongoing deep and expanding investigation looking into whether the current administration colluded with a foreign enemy to subvert our democratic process and just how much Trump and his team have worked to obstruct that investigation, but public hearings aren't being broadcast every afternoon so therefore the investigation is "dying".

It's only natural that this is what happens to perception, when the mainstream media have been talking so much about something (because it sent their ratings through the roof). If they then suddenly decide to tone it down a bit, it will look as a retreat.

Like that CNN producer says in that sting operation by that horrible ACORN liar guy (who now has some of his credibility back): If there really was incontrovertible evidence, it would have been leaked a long time ago. They allegedly knew this was happening while it was going on, the US is a surveillance state that not even Orwell could have imagined, but they still can't present anything beyond hearsay from anonymous sources?

Okay, we'll wait. But can the mainstream media then stop screaming about it? And talk about issues for a change instead of doing the corporate bidding?

So, there's the perception, that in my limited view doesn't seem to be going very well. And then there's the reality, from which I still hope that there's something there (not just mere corruption that almost every US president/politican is guilty of) and it doesn't massively backfire.

Is it possible that there are enough stupid people around to vote again for that arrogant imbecile because they feel sorry for him? Maybe; stranger things have happened.

Not because they feel sorry for him. It will reinforce the erroneous idea that Trump is not part of the Establishment, and when he tried to drain the swamp, the Establishment did everything they could to get rid of him. And that's why he didn't drain the swamp, right?

Of course, it's the opposite of the truth, but a lot of people will perceive it that way, and if the Democrats then run again with some fake candidate who is up to his ears in corporate asses, yes, Trump might win again. They'll do another F You-finger.

Quote
But the way I look at it is this: if this nation is dumb enough to allow hostile foreign entities to call the shots, then we deserve Trump. IOW, the battle and the race is already lost.

Look, if things went so far as Russian agents meddling with voting machines (which is something that has been implied from the get-go), the problem is with the voting machines. I mean, I remember watching documentaries 10 years ago about Republicans tampering with Diebold voting machines. But it's okay when Americans do it to Americans, right?

Okay, let's assume that it's true that these Russian agents did hack the DNC servers. If there hadn't been as damning a content as there was on those servers, it would never have had the impact it had!

If it's not the voting machines or the hacking, and you believe that some twitterbots can influence the US elections up to that level, then yes, all hope is lost. In that sense I'd be more worried about Mercer and his companies using the CIA playbook of targeting voters, but then again, he's American.

Or are you bothered by Oligarchs Sans Frontières cooperating to steal more money from the world's people? That's a feature, not a bug. I don't care if it happens because Russia, Saudi Arabia or Israel is having an influence on US politics. None of them should have an influence, period.

It's not us against the Russians. It's us against the oligarchs and their limitless wealth that sucks the life out of us like a black hole.
Title: Re: Russiagate
Post by: Buddy on June 29, 2017, 06:47:45 PM
Remember......pressure causes mistakes.  The more pressure that is applied...the more mistakes you should expect.  Donnie made a mistake by going after Mika of "Morning Joe" today.  NOT a good look politically for several reasons.  And it gave them an opening to mock Trump's fake Time Magazine cover.

Mocking is now stepped one more level.  And I expect the White House press Corps to ratchet up their accountability of Donnie and his group in coming days/weeks.
Title: Re: Russiagate
Post by: Martin Gisser on June 29, 2017, 09:07:53 PM
But it's okay when Americans do it to Americans, right?
Right. And so, they could hire Russian hackers as well. Just a theory. And then Putin and his oligarchs weren't far, esp. given Trump's shady financial dealings with them...

Quote
, let's assume that it's true that these Russian agents did hack the DNC servers. If there hadn't been as damning a content as there was on those servers, it would never have had the impact it had!
I'm still waiting for the first seriously damning piece.

The exact impact is perhaps impossible to quantify. From my Facebook field study I have the impression that it was already overwhelmed by other Fake News. The emails might have had the biggest effect in making hardcore Berners more susceptible to Fake News (stab-in-the-back legend). Like we can still occasionally see in the debate here: Trump's "Crooked Hillary" does stick.

The whole thing reminds me too much of the 2009 "Climategate" email hack. A red flag for my BS detector.
Title: Re: Russiagate
Post by: jai mitchell on June 29, 2017, 09:15:20 PM
this is absolutely telling. 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A0TFcJX4Mp0 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A0TFcJX4Mp0)
Title: Re: Russiagate
Post by: Neven on June 29, 2017, 11:21:52 PM
The whole thing reminds me too much of the 2009 "Climategate" email hack. A red flag for my BS detector.

There are a couple of differences. First of all, quite a large part of the mainstream media ran with the misleading quotes without context (it's a travesty, trick, etc). Second, the scientists defended themselves vehemently. Third, several inquiries exonerated the writers of the e-mails of any wrongdoing, especially when it comes to the science. And of course, the Democratic Party cannot defend itself with science, because politics simply isn't very scientific. It's about power, and power corrupts most of the time.

If you want to further look into this with me, we can discuss it in the Corporate Democrats thread. I must admit that I'm basing myself on what I've seen on Youtube. Maybe it wasn't as bad as it looked.

this is absolutely telling. 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A0TFcJX4Mp0 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A0TFcJX4Mp0)

What I dislike most about this story, is that that ACORN fake news asshole scores with it. We should've never heard from that POS ever again.

I hope that Trump gets hit hard with anything that is true about the 'collusion', but I hope even more that his downfall will be caused by his own stupidity and the right people will be there to capitalize on it (not the GOP or the Corporate Democrats), with ideas and a vision that benefit the 99%.

Like Buddy says: Tick tock. Time is running out to get those right people in the right positions. But there still is time. We, all of us, need to support people that aren't beholden to corporate interests. That's not purity, it's common sense.

Most of all, I hope that we don't get a new Cold War. Paranoia levels are high enough for it, with the Russians now suspecting that American intelligence agencies will try to spoil their elections as well. Whether that's true or not, if will probably be used by the wrong people to gain (even more) power. Rinse and repeat.

And it's not just the intelligence agencies using this playbook. Some oligarchs, like Mercer and Thiel (and of course the Kochs) are now able to set up their own propaganda operations. I would probably too if my wealth was limitless and perpetually hungry for more growth.

And so that's what the problem is. Not the US, not Russia, not the KGB, CIA or NSA. The problem is the limitless wealth of oligarchs. We need to put a limit on that wealth. Somehow.
Title: Re: Russiagate
Post by: Zeug Gezeugt on June 29, 2017, 11:24:14 PM
Here's the latest from US national treasure and investigative journalist Rob Parry:
https://consortiumnews.com/2017/06/28/russia-gate-is-no-watergate-or-iran-contra/

He's the guy who broke Iran Contra back in the 80's when Poppy Bush was caught red handed running a global CIA guns and drugs business. HW is definitely one of my favourite US presidents, a CIA Director with a de facto 3 term presidency. He and Baker did a lot of business with the Yeltsin oligarchs via the Carlyle Group before Putin decapitated the Russian oligarchy.

Anyhow, Parry is no Fox News Trumpist, I like him because he seems to be driven by journalistic ethics and uncovering the truth of the matter at hand.
Title: Re: Russiagate
Post by: Jim Pettit on June 30, 2017, 12:42:02 AM
For the record, this would be "collusion":

"GOP Operative Sought Clinton Emails From Hackers, Implied a Connection to Flynn"

https://www.wsj.com/articles/gop-operative-sought-clinton-emails-from-hackers-implied-a-connection-to-flynn-1498770851 (https://www.wsj.com/articles/gop-operative-sought-clinton-emails-from-hackers-implied-a-connection-to-flynn-1498770851)
Title: Re: Russiagate
Post by: jai mitchell on June 30, 2017, 12:58:06 AM
What I dislike most about this story, is that that ACORN fake news asshole scores with it. We should've never heard from that POS ever again.

+1

however, as onerous as their history is, this is a real scoop and shows how the corporate media works to the detriment of the U.S. for $$$.  It also indicates that much of the Russia stuff is simply a diversion tactic and further limiting the actual resistance to the destructive trump agenda (reference the discussion about the CNN CEO guiding the network back to Russia and away from the exit from Paris Agreement.  There couldn't be a more clear example of institutional failure of the media to protect the public good.
Title: Re: Russiagate
Post by: Buddy on June 30, 2017, 02:37:44 AM
Those of you that are interested in RussiaGate....need to follow Malcolm Nance.  He's a former Navy intelligence officer....and he has been "spot on" with Donnie and the Russians since the summer BEFORE the election.  Nance is a MSNBC contributor.

Mueller's investigation still has a long way to go....and there is no telling exactly when they will break.  But break.....they will.

The dots continue to connect....and the smoke is intensifying.


Title: Re: Russiagate
Post by: pileus on June 30, 2017, 02:42:54 AM
What I dislike most about this story, is that that ACORN fake news asshole scores with it. We should've never heard from that POS ever again.

+1

however, as onerous as their history is, this is a real scoop and shows how the corporate media works to the detriment of the U.S. for $$$.  It also indicates that much of the Russia stuff is simply a diversion tactic and further limiting the actual resistance to the destructive trump agenda (reference the discussion about the CNN CEO guiding the network back to Russia and away from the exit from Paris Agreement.  There couldn't be a more clear example of institutional failure of the media to protect the public good.

Some of us here understand this for what it is:  an attack on and violation of American sovereignty and national governance.  It is the virtual equivalent of Pearl Harbor, without bullets and bombs and deaths (except for the dozen or so Russian diplomats and officials connected to Putin that have been murdered or died in "accidents" over the past year).  Some of understand this, some of us do not.  Not everyone has the same level of concern about it, and that's just how people are. 

The media and general public can walk and chew gum at the same time.  The general public has been focused on Trump's agenda from day one, protesting and disrupting everything from the Muslim ban to the healthcare bill and everything in between.  Media reporting led to the revelations regarding the actions of Michael Flynn, and it has since been discovered that he was working as a foreign agent for Turkey and advocating for policy in direct conflict with US interests and in favor of US adversaries. These actions by media also led to AG Sessions needing to recuse himself from the Russia investigation.  Media interviews have recorded Trump admitting to what amounts to obstruction of justice in his actions with the FBI director.  Media reporting has uncovered examples of Trump's business corruption and dysfunction in the White House that have hobbled his ability to carry forward his agenda.

The Russia story is deep and wide, and the investigations will continue, as will media reporting.  CNN is one cable news channel.  The NYT and WaPo have been leading the way with breaking reports.

Your comments about CNN and Russia being a diversion make you appear to parrot the Fox News and conservative media positions.  You are clearly in the corner of Fox News, and acting as an apologist for Donald Trump regarding Russia.

Some of here refuse to lower ourselves to that level, and will carry on.
Title: Re: Russiagate
Post by: pileus on June 30, 2017, 03:53:15 AM
For the record, this would be "collusion":

"GOP Operative Sought Clinton Emails From Hackers, Implied a Connection to Flynn"

https://www.wsj.com/articles/gop-operative-sought-clinton-emails-from-hackers-implied-a-connection-to-flynn-1498770851 (https://www.wsj.com/articles/gop-operative-sought-clinton-emails-from-hackers-implied-a-connection-to-flynn-1498770851)

And here we have a Republican Congressman calling for the Russia investigation to continue.

GOP Rep admits Russia probe ‘has legs’: ‘There is justification to continue the investigation’

http://www.rawstory.com/2017/06/gop-rep-admits-russia-probe-has-legs-there-is-justification-to-continue-the-investigation/amp/ (http://www.rawstory.com/2017/06/gop-rep-admits-russia-probe-has-legs-there-is-justification-to-continue-the-investigation/amp/)

Rep. Walter Jones (R-NC) on Thursday conceded there is reason to continue the investigation into Russian meddling in the 2016 and possible collusion with Donald Trump’s campaign, arguing the probe “has legs".
---
The Justice Department and several Congressional committees are currently looking into Russia’s historical interference in the 2016 U.S. presidential election, as well as what, if any, coordination the adversarial nation had with the Trump campaign.

Thursday, the Wall Street Journal reported Trump’s former National Security Adviser Michael Flynn was name-dropped by a GOP operative who launched an “independent campaign” to find Hillary Clinton’s 30,000 missing e-mails. That operative believed those emails had been hacked—most likely by a Russian or Russia-backed group.

Despite once explicitly asking for Russia to find Clinton’s 30,000 missing emails, Trump has repeatedly denied anything to do with Russia’s attempts to influence the election.

In addition to determining whether the Trump campaign colluded with Russia, special prosecutor Robert Mueller is reportedly investigating the president for possible obstruction of justice over his firing of James Comey. Trump has denied that he demanded loyalty from the ousted FBI director, but also argued it wouldn’t be illegal if he had.
Title: Re: Russiagate
Post by: jai mitchell on June 30, 2017, 06:21:20 AM
Your comments about CNN and Russia being a diversion make you appear to parrot the Fox News and conservative media positions.  You are clearly in the corner of Fox News, and acting as an apologist for Donald Trump regarding Russia.

thats hilarious.   So you obviously didn't watch the video and have absolutely no idea what I am talking about.

the fact is that for anyone in the U.S. to get their panties in a bunch about USSR 'interfering' in the election is in complete denial of the U.S. operations all over the globe.  How many elections have we worked to control in the world for our own domestic corporate interests?  Why did Obama try to negotiate away our domestic sovereignty through the TPP?  Why are we at war in Syria (hint: it involves a natural gas pipeline to Europe). . . 

I haven't ever blocked anyone on this forum but this level of sheer idiocy really galls me, time to get back to the main threads.  sorry I stopped by.
Title: Re: Russiagate
Post by: sidd on June 30, 2017, 06:58:33 AM
Greenwald takes apart CNN fiasco:

https://theintercept.com/2017/06/27/cnn-journalists-resign-latest-example-of-media-recklessness-on-the-russia-threat/

Title: Re: Russiagate
Post by: budmantis on June 30, 2017, 07:51:55 AM
What I dislike most about this story, is that that ACORN fake news asshole scores with it. We should've never heard from that POS ever again.

+1

however, as onerous as their history is, this is a real scoop and shows how the corporate media works to the detriment of the U.S. for $$$.  It also indicates that much of the Russia stuff is simply a diversion tactic and further limiting the actual resistance to the destructive trump agenda (reference the discussion about the CNN CEO guiding the network back to Russia and away from the exit from Paris Agreement.  There couldn't be a more clear example of institutional failure of the media to protect the public good.

Some of here refuse to lower ourselves to that level, and will carry on.

I for one believe you take your disagreement too far, so don't "lower yourself" to that level. You can disagree with Jai Mitchell, et al, but don't be insulting about it.

BudM
Title: Re: Russiagate
Post by: TerryM on June 30, 2017, 08:45:49 AM

I for one believe you take your disagreement too far, so don't "lower yourself" to that level. You can disagree with Jai Mitchell, et al, but don't be insulting about it.

BudM


 Ramen !!


Let's not forget who's living room this discussion is taking place in.


I don't mean that Neven's thoughts or idea's on this or any other topic should be given precedence, rather that the collegial tone that prevails at all of Neven's sights is one of the reasons that so many of us have kept coming back for so many years.


Terry
Title: Re: Russiagate
Post by: Neven on June 30, 2017, 09:56:36 AM
Neven's thoughts or idea's on this or any other topic should be given precedence,
Abolutely not! I talk too much from the heart, because it's all too much for my head.

Of course, we mustn't insult too much, but neither must we feel offended too quickly. It's the Internet, almost everyone uses it to vent frustrations.  ;)

Here's a video from TheRealNews:

US Voters Aren't Buying the Russiagate Fixation
! No longer available (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Dh3-dQrCgWI#)
Title: Re: Russiagate
Post by: Neven on June 30, 2017, 10:13:11 AM
And another one. I'm sorry, but I can't help finding that Paul Jay a very reasonable-sounding guy.

Real News Roundtable: The RussiaGate Distraction & Trump's Free-For-All Capitalism
! No longer available (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BAEF0iToJ5Y#)
Title: Re: Russiagate
Post by: Archimid on June 30, 2017, 11:52:40 AM
Republicans are risking becoming the party of Putin

https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/republicans-are-risking-becoming-the-party-of-putin/2017/06/28/78e8e1ee-5c24-11e7-9fc6-c7ef4bc58d13_story.html (https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/republicans-are-risking-becoming-the-party-of-putin/2017/06/28/78e8e1ee-5c24-11e7-9fc6-c7ef4bc58d13_story.html)


Title: Re: Russiagate
Post by: Archimid on June 30, 2017, 01:12:45 PM
I Just wanted to say that the whole "don't talk about Russia because it is a distraction" meme really hurt your arguments. That's like saying "don't talk about the melting Arctic because is a distraction from the climate change debate".  Sure, it is effective if what you want is to cover up any wrong doing, but in a civilized debate it is just demeaning.

We know Russia meddled with the elections. We know Trump obstructed (and is obstructing) the investigation. We know several Trump campaign staff colluded with Russia. Whether Trump himself colluded will be extremely difficult to prove. Like all strongmen, Trump works by using the people around him, not by doing things himself.  Will the FBI be able to gather enough evidence to process it in a court of law? That will be difficult, specially with the trail of dead bodies and with the GOP interference in the investigation.
Title: Re: Russiagate
Post by: Hefaistos on June 30, 2017, 02:11:19 PM

We know Russia meddled with the elections.

No, we don't.
We know that NSA says so, without providing any proof at all. They claim that it was Russian military intelligence, specifically the Russian General Staff Main Intelligence Directorate, or GRU, that conducted the cyber attacks. This is just a laughable allegation. More probably this is a false trail, by hackers using standard techniques of leaving such false trails.
Further, we know that CIA has developed virus software with sophisticated means leaving false trails pointing directly to Russia. E.g. the 'Grasshopper' virus, where CIA was re-using Russian hacker code, creating "Russian" hackers' signatures, as revealed by wikileaks. These viruses are available on the dark web, for anyone wanting to do "Russian" hacks.

It's likely the various hacks were done by Russian speaking hackers. But we ceertainly don't know their nationality, and we most certainly don't know who assigned them. Could be interested parties from the USA, e.g., who would have a clearer motive to influence the elections than the GRU.
Title: Re: Russiagate
Post by: Neven on June 30, 2017, 02:30:06 PM
I Just wanted to say that the whole "don't talk about Russia because it is a distraction" meme really hurt your arguments.

If there is a meme, it would be 'don't talk about Russia non-stop to boost your ratings or to hide your failings as a party'. Don't present us with a false choice between 'don't talk at all' and 'talk non-stop'. Strategically, it would be more useful to wait until the evidence (finally) comes in and in the meantime attack Trump and his cronies on policy issues. It would be much smarter to talk about that non-stop, if only because Trump prefers people to talk about Russia non-stop.

Quote
We know Russia meddled with the elections. We know Trump obstructed (and is obstructing) the investigation. We know several Trump campaign staff colluded with Russia. Whether Trump himself colluded will be extremely difficult to prove.

All of that is possible, but none of what you say, is fact, even though the media tries to present it as such. As for the collusion, to me it looks like regular corruption between oligarchs, just like previous presidents had with Saudi-Arabia and Israel. Again, a feature, not a bug.

Please, do not dismiss that Paul Jay interview out of hand, just because I posted that video. He really does say a lot of sensible things. I try not to post videos here to annoy people.
Title: Re: Russiagate
Post by: Archimid on June 30, 2017, 02:58:51 PM
Quote
Strategically, it would be more useful to wait until the evidence (finally) comes in and in the meantime attack Trump and his cronies on policy issues.

Strategically, he must be a attacked in all fronts (violence excluded). Trumps cozying up to dictators like Putin, Erdogan and Duterte is a clear sign of where Trump wants to take the US.


About the video, more of the same. Really to me they are just using exactly the same tactics as climate change deniers. Sow doubt and deceit and let people's fear of the truth do the rest.
Title: Re: Russiagate
Post by: Archimid on June 30, 2017, 05:26:00 PM

All of that is possible, but none of what you say, is fact.

It is a fact that Russia meddled in the elections. So say all the intelligence agencies and multiple depositions in congress. It is such a strong fact that congress approved another sanctions package to punish Russia for it's meddling. If that is not evidence I ask you, What evidence is needed for you to believe it?

It is also a fact that Trump is obstructing the investigation. He fired the freaking head of the FBI and then admited he was attempting to influence his testimony. 

Did Trump colluded with Putin, or was it just his henchmen? That is the only thing that is still up for grabs.


BTW

Quote
Strategically, it would be more useful to wait until the evidence (finally) comes in


Strategically if it is true that Trump colluded chances are he will make sure the evidence never comes up, specially if people give them the benefit of the doubt. Can you tell me why are you giving Trump the benefit of the doubt on this?
Title: Re: Russiagate
Post by: sidd on June 30, 2017, 06:35:09 PM
I have trusted no western news media or intelligence agency for a very long time, and I am mildly surprised that anyone yet believes them. Especially after the intelligence agencies were extensively exposed as liars and torturers and the press as shameless cheerleaders for atrocity and war.

sidd
Title: Re: Russiagate
Post by: gerontocrat on June 30, 2017, 06:39:23 PM
I have trusted no western news media or intelligence agency for a very long time, and I am mildly surprised that anyone yet believes them. Especially after the intelligence agencies were extensively exposed as liars and torturers and the press as shameless cheerleaders for atrocity and war.

sidd
Oh, for a Government that was moderately honest and moderately competent.
Title: Re: Russiagate
Post by: Archimid on June 30, 2017, 11:32:44 PM
I will ask from the Russiagate deniers (tm)  ;D ;) to please answer the following questions

What will you consider proof?

If neither American nor British intelligence services can be trusted, who must deliver the proof you requiere?

What is your standard for a president interfering with an investigation?



I don't trust the intelligence services like I trust let's say NASA. I know the intelligence services lie and deceive when they deem it necesary, but I also know that at the end of the day,  they are a bureaucracy, with people looking over people looking over people. If they are investigating the President of the United States (literally their boss), with a majority on the house , Senate and Supreme court and  a known criminal, they have good reasons.  I don't think they are lying about this.


Title: Re: Russiagate
Post by: Martin Gisser on July 01, 2017, 04:04:36 AM
this is absolutely telling. 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A0TFcJX4Mp0 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A0TFcJX4Mp0)
Dunno how much this poor CNN guy is involved in Russiagate reporting. There is enough leakers. But they can mostly leak from the surface, like the paradigmatic Reality L. Winner and her stuff.

The "hard evidence" will perhaps never surface. The core CIA etc. staff and organisation are seriously serious people. (For a taste read Joanna Macy's memoirs.) Have you ever seen original spy tapes from inside the Kremlin. Maybe the Estonians will get impatient one day and dump stuff (just a theory, or Australia) ...
Louise Mensch has posted her summa of whispers from the spies and is now offline:
https://patribotics.blog/2017/06/29/exclusive-sigint-on-kushnerivanka-inside-russian-embassy/ (https://patribotics.blog/2017/06/29/exclusive-sigint-on-kushnerivanka-inside-russian-embassy/)
Her stuff shows the nature of the hard evidence, if existing.

Some important guy twitters
Quote
To the career men & women at DOJ/FBI: your actions and integrity will be unfairly questioned. Be prepared, be strong. Duty. Honor. Country.
https://mobile.twitter.com/EricHolder/status/880686761848045570 (https://mobile.twitter.com/EricHolder/status/880686761848045570)

Tick tick, tick tick ... tütalülala... Is Trump's latest Twitter scandal just a distraction?
Quote
We still believe that Trump has renewed his feud with the Morning Joe co-hosts in such absurdly vulgar fashion because he expects a Trump-Russia collusion bombshell to be published imminently and he’s attempting to create a distraction. But in addition to the heat he’s taking for the sheer boorishness of his latest personal attacks, he appears to have just publicly confessed to having committed felony blackmail, in a manner which has now also exposed Jared Kushner for having committed the same. Bring on yet another congressional investigation.
http://www.palmerreport.com/politics/donald-trump-and-jared-kushner-privately-tried-to-blackmail-morning-joe-over-national-enquirer-story/3680/ (http://www.palmerreport.com/politics/donald-trump-and-jared-kushner-privately-tried-to-blackmail-morning-joe-over-national-enquirer-story/3680/) (my emph.)

Perhaps this breaking news bombshell next:
Carter Page Went to Moscow With a Tape of Donald Trump Offering Treason For Hacking
https://patribotics.blog/2017/04/16/carter-page-went-to-moscow-with-a-tape-of-donald-trump-offering-treason-for-hacking/ (https://patribotics.blog/2017/04/16/carter-page-went-to-moscow-with-a-tape-of-donald-trump-offering-treason-for-hacking/)

 :D :o
I still bet a lot on Louise et al.
More popcorn please...

-----
P.S.: I forgot about the Smith collusion thing, possibly another distraction? According to Palmer (occured right now :)), stay tuned :D
Quote
This tells us that the WSJ has more coming on the Smith story, and that one of the major competing newspapers has an imminent Trump-Russia collusion story of its own.
http://www.palmerreport.com/politics/dead-russia-collluding-strategist-named-steve-bannon-kellyanne-trump-advisers/3681/ (http://www.palmerreport.com/politics/dead-russia-collluding-strategist-named-steve-bannon-kellyanne-trump-advisers/3681/)
Title: Re: Russiagate
Post by: sidd on July 01, 2017, 04:52:45 AM
"I don't think they are lying about this."

While I think they lie about everything.

There is a market, as we see on this forum, for russiagate stories. The leakers are meeting a demand, just as they should, in this glorious free market.

As for Carter Page, it is quite clear he has been an FBI informant for some time ...

sidd

Title: Re: Russiagate
Post by: Zeug Gezeugt on July 01, 2017, 08:50:11 AM
What will you consider proof?

If neither American nor British intelligence services can be trusted, who must deliver the proof you requiere?

Hi Archimid,

I'm not sure you understand the difference between a factual proof based on evidence and a factoid based on hearsay, which is surprising since this arctic forum community is founded on a scientific approach to evidentiary proofs indicating the probable reality of ongoing anthropogenic climate change. It's the deniers who are reduced to misrepresentations and confusions about how science works and what constitutes a proof, its evidence and its probable factual truths.

17 intelligence agencies asserting Russian interference in the US election process, without evidence, does not constitute a proof of Russian interference. It is a factoid rather than a proven fact.

Likewise your notion of 'obstruction' would appear to be colloquial rather than legalistic, where you think that Trump has tried to 'get in the way' of Comey's investigation. This is not 'obstruction' in the sense the media and political polemicists intend, and there would appear to be as yet no evidence of 'obstruction of justice' which would be the legal basis under US jurisdiction for a possible movement to impeach.

There's no evidence of Russian interference.
There's no evidence of Trump's obstruction.
There's certainly no evidence of collusion.

None of these are as yet 'facts of the matters at hand'. Your naive insistence on them as factoids devoid of evidentiary proofs does nothing other than weaken your arguments and this, I think, works in favour of Trump's administration.

And here's another gem from Robert Parry regarding those 17 intelligence agencies for your edification - NYT Finally Retracts Russia-gate Canard (https://consortiumnews.com/2017/06/29/nyt-finally-retracts-russia-gate-canard/)
Title: Re: Russiagate
Post by: Archimid on July 01, 2017, 12:47:14 PM
Quote
I'm not sure you understand the difference between a factual proof based on evidence and a factoid based on hearsay, which is surprising since this arctic forum community is founded on a scientific approach to evidentiary proofs indicating the probable reality of ongoing anthropogenic climate change. It's the deniers who are reduced to misrepresentations and confusions about how science works and what constitutes a proof, its evidence and its probable factual truths.


When NASA says the Earth is warming I believe them. I'm sure they have no  "hard proof". They only have sparse instruments all over the world and in space that return what to me and almost everyone else are meaningless numbers. Some folks in a building and NASA get together and turn all those meaningless numbers into a model that produces a number which they call the Global Temperature. To climate change deniers that does not constitute proof. They say the models are wrong or that scientists can't be trusted or whatever excuse is convenient to them at the moment. To me it does constitute evidence.


It is the same with Russiagate evidence. There are multiple reports from multiple sources gathered by maybe thousands of people in the intelligence agencies. In some room, in some government building analysts get together and piece together all the sparse reports and secret evidence into a coherent picture. That coherent picture was deemed good enough to publicly call out Russia, enact sanctions, sack the National Security Adviser and initiate an official investigation.


To me that is as hard evidence as can be found. Yet to you that is not evidence. So I ask you again, since you conveniently avoiding answering the question, to give an example of what constitutes evidence in this case. For example you could say that evidence would be a video recording of a Russian sitting on his computer hacking away some election server. The video should include the screen recording of everything the Russian did. It should also have  a log of all outgoing traffic from the terminal, a trace of the steps that connect him to the election server, and verification from the server side that the action did have the effect wanted by the hacker. That would be iron clad proof. That would also be impossible to obtain. Even if it was obtained it would not be public.


But of course, since you do not trust the intelligence agencies, if they were to release such proof you would say it is fake. That level of proof must come from somewhere other than American or European intelligence agencies. What source would be acceptable to you? A confession by the hacker himself? Wikileaks? the Chinese? The KGB? What source would you trust in this matter?


The same for interference. I believe that asking for personal loyalty, firing the FBI director overseeing the investigation and then attempting to influence the testimony with intimidation is obstruction of justice. You obviously don't. Please tell me what is your standard for obstructing justice?
Title: Re: Russiagate
Post by: Archimid on July 01, 2017, 01:12:10 PM
One more piece of "not evidence" to add to the pile. Remember kids, nothing happened here, ignore this and give good ole Trump the benefit of the doubt.

The Time I Got Recruited to Collude with the Russians

https://lawfareblog.com/time-i-got-recruited-collude-russians

Quote
I’m writing this piece in the spirit of Benjamin Wittes’s account of his interactions with James Comey immediately following the New York Times story for which he acted as a source. The goal is to provide a fuller accounting of experiences which were thoroughly bizarre and which I did not fully understand until I read the Journal’s account of the episode yesterday. Indeed, I still do not fully understand the events I am going to describe, both what they reflected then or what they mean in retrospect. But I can lay out what happened, facts from which readers and investigators can draw their own conclusions.
Title: Re: Russiagate
Post by: Buddy on July 01, 2017, 01:21:39 PM
In the coming weeks and months....democracy in the US will continue to tested.  There are many people at all levels who have already been bought off.  From the highest reaches of government...to blogs.

Several months ago I posted a link to a psychology experiment done at Stanford several decades ago.  You should review that again.  It shows you what humanity is capable of...especially in a group.

Just from a casual observance of Donnie's motley crew...you can see that it is pretty easy to put together a sizeable group of folks that have no ethics.  Mix in a little oversized ego...and access to authority....and you can see what you get.

The press is going to tested big time in coming months.  And they will have to counter the fake press of FOX,  Breitbart, and Russian backed bloggers.

This is going to get a lot more serious than most expect.  Keep your eyes open...and keep asking people questions, for questions demand answers.
Title: Re: Russiagate
Post by: Neven on July 01, 2017, 01:42:05 PM
Archimid, your NASA analogy doesn't really work. First of all, NASA is about science, intelligence agencies are about power and politics. Second, the NASA data can be obtained and checked by everyone who has a high enough level of understanding and skills (+ the peer review system). Third, the mainstream media don't go screaming almost 24/7 that the world is about to end based on some snippets of NASA data (not even raw) they have received from anonymous third parties. Did you check that article about the 17 agencies-canard that everyone uncritically disseminated after Hillary Clinton used it for her 'campaign'?

And even then, we can discard all these arguments and posit that you employ an appeal to authority.

I don't need video evidence of a Russian hacker sitting behind a computer hacking voting machines. I would need a variety of people to check the paper trail (just like scientists checking NASA data) and establish a discrepancy. That would be enough evidence for me that someone tampered with the voting machines. Which has happened on a continuous basis in the past, BTW, and probably still is happening.

Your problem is with the hackable voting machines, not with the hackers. Or do you leave your door open at night with a neon sign above it, saying: 'Welcome, burglars!'

Quote
It is a fact that Russia meddled in the elections. So say all the intelligence agencies and multiple depositions in congress. It is such a strong fact that congress approved another sanctions package to punish Russia for it's meddling. If that is not evidence I ask you, What evidence is needed for you to believe it?

It is not a fact, but that doesn't mean that it didn't happen either. It simply hasn't been proven. It's isn't all the intelligence agencies, and we know these agencies have agendas. Just like almost everything in Congress is done based on an (partisan) agenda. Those multiple depositions I have seen, were mostly opinions. What do I care about the opinion of the ambassador of Montenegro?

Quote
It is also a fact that Trump is obstructing the investigation. He fired the freaking head of the FBI and then admited he was attempting to influence his testimony.

You mean the head of the FBI that made Trump president by announcing the FBI was reopening the investigation into the Clinton mails just two weeks before the election? And Trump didn't admit no such thing. That was the breathless interpretation of mainstream media propagandists.

Quote
Did Trump colluded with Putin, or was it just his henchmen? That is the only thing that is still up for grabs.

That's irrelevant. We know Trump is corrupt, and that this is accepted practice from American presidents/politicians who almost always serve the interests of (some of the) oligarchs. The only reason it isn't accepted this time, is because people dislike Trump's personality so much, because the Democratic Party won't own up to its mistakes (ie betraying blue-collar workers and the disenfranchised) and because the mainstream media is on a ratings bonanza.

Quote
If neither American nor British intelligence services can be trusted, who must deliver the proof you requiere?

Investigative journalists with a proven track record, if they still exist. They are the ones who check power for us, the people. Not the intelligence agencies who serve various profit-seeking interests (including their own).

And that brings us to the biggest problem of all: Which media can we still trust?

And I'm not saying all of this because I want to protect or defend Trump. He's a corrupt, lying, narcissistic, megalomaniac asshole who needs to be replaced by the right people (not another pretty-faced Obama). The danger of Russiagate is that you make his position stronger when it backfires.

It would be better if we stop talking about Russiagate and Trump's personality so much, and attack him on how he is breaking his promises by introducing even more tax breaks for the rich, deregulates Wall Street, burdens the poor with even higher medical and education costs, f***s up the climate, etc, etc.

Russiagate can be the cherry on top once all those investigations are done, but the cake is usually bigger than the cherry. Let's bake a cake. That's how you get voters back and re-gain political power to undo what Trump, his cronies and the GOP have been doing (and what Corporate Democrats have been doing before them).
Title: Re: Russiagate
Post by: Neven on July 01, 2017, 01:52:19 PM
But allow me to apologize for letting myself get swept up in this again. I continue to receive notifications for this thread because I want to know how the investigations are progressing. When I see various people post all these conspiracy theories (which doesn't mean there isn't a conspiracy, but one small step further and you're in Glennbeckistan), I get the impression that this is how a very large part of the population thinks and this depresses me somewhat, because I'd like to see all that fervour and energy directed towards systemic solutions, not just solving something that gets us in a frenzy.

Trump is a symptom of a broken system, not the cause. The cause is the limitless wealth of oligarchs. This wealth is like the Blob, and so it has to be reduced to a limit where it doesn't try to eat everything.
Title: Re: Russiagate
Post by: Jim Pettit on July 01, 2017, 03:07:45 PM
the fact is that for anyone in the U.S. to get their panties in a bunch about USSR 'interfering' in the election is in complete denial of the U.S. operations all over the globe.

For perhaps the dozenth time, allow me to explain: our problem isn't so much with Russia meddling in our elections. That's reprehensible, and we need to work against it, but that's not what all the investigations are about. No, our problem is Americans working with Russia to subvert our democratic processes for the mutual benefit of both parties. That's not just reprehensible; that's treason. And that simply can't be tolerated.
Title: Re: Russiagate
Post by: AbruptSLR on July 01, 2017, 03:29:29 PM
Shortly after the release of WSJ's story about Russiagate, the key source Peter Smith mysteriously dropped dead.

"Trump-Russia collusion figure Peter W. Smith tweeted Sean Spicer, Sean Hannity, and hackers "

http://www.palmerreport.com/politics/trump-russia-collusion-peter-w-smith-tweeted-sean-spicer-hannity-hackers/3686/ (http://www.palmerreport.com/politics/trump-russia-collusion-peter-w-smith-tweeted-sean-spicer-hannity-hackers/3686/)

Extract: "Smith told other operatives that he was working on Russian election collusion with Trump adviser Michael Flynn, and he also listed Steve Bannon and Kellyanne Conway as being involved as well. Bannon and Conway have told the WSJ that they never worked with him, though Palmer Report was able to confirm that Smith worked with Conway’s husband (link). But more telling may be what Peter Smith was up to on Twitter, and with whom he was attempting to communicate."

See also:

http://www.alternet.org/news-amp-politics/collusion-back-strange-tale-michael-flynn-his-son-and-now-deceased-republican (http://www.alternet.org/news-amp-politics/collusion-back-strange-tale-michael-flynn-his-son-and-now-deceased-republican)
Title: Re: Russiagate
Post by: Archimid on July 01, 2017, 03:53:06 PM
I don't need video evidence of a Russian hacker sitting behind a computer hacking voting machines. I would need a variety of people to check the paper trail (just like scientists checking NASA data) and establish a discrepancy.

That is exactly what happens in the federal agencies. Analysts, agents, supervisors, lawyers and many other bureaucrats comb through the data and report it. Methods and proof are closely guarded for security reasons but the conclusion is public. In any other debate (except for climate change), the testimony of the collective works of the agencies is accepted as proof.

For example The NSA director says the Russians meddled in the elections:

https://youtu.be/36MsIf3m88E (https://youtu.be/36MsIf3m88E)

The DNI director also said it happened:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fwG89V_aKK0 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fwG89V_aKK0)

The CIA director also said it happened:

https://youtu.be/jEvbITY4hSw (https://youtu.be/jEvbITY4hSw)  (jump to 34:02)



Now you are saying all this people are lying in some elaborate deception that must necesarilly involved thousands of agents over many government agencies working independently and together.  I don't believe that for a second. 

So your litmus test, "I would need a variety of people to check the paper trail" is met, but to you the people checking the paper trail are lying.

You say
Quote
Investigative journalists with a proven track record, if they still exist.

So by your own admission, it is unlikely that a person with enough credibility exists for you to believe it. That could be interpreted as regardless of who say it, you won't believe it. I think you must examine your objectivity.
Title: Re: Russiagate
Post by: LRC1962 on July 01, 2017, 04:16:01 PM
For perhaps the dozenth time, allow me to explain: our problem isn't so much with Russia meddling in our elections. That's reprehensible, and we need to work against it, but that's not what all the investigations are about. No, our problem is Americans working with Russia to subvert our democratic processes for the mutual benefit of both parties. That's not just reprehensible; that's treason. And that simply can't be tolerated.
I agree. You have the Nixon/Watergate problem. The break in was bad, but could have been easily contained if admitted to. Foreign election interference has been going on since the invention of elections. The problems are: encouraging it, assisting it, then compounding it by lying about it then using your power to prevent discovery. Trump is doing all that plus using his base to then discredit those who are trying to get at the truth.
We have a compounding problem in that we are in the instant era. Remember, there have been big problems in the past that took sometimes decades to overcome. Even Watergate took almost two years before Nixon fled the WH. In Trumps case, I could easily see him running for a second term unless the electorate gives a solid message in 2018 which I do not see coming.
In fact I could see Russiagate being one of those things that historians will give the final verdict and not the judicial system.

Neven:
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"I get the impression that this is how a very large part of the population thinks and this depresses me somewhat, because I'd like to see all that fervour and energy directed towards systemic solutions, not just solving something that gets us in a frenzy."
Quote
“It has been said that democracy is the worst form of government, except all those others that have been tried” – Winston Churchill

Title: Re: Russiagate
Post by: Neven on July 01, 2017, 04:37:54 PM
That is exactly what happens in the federal agencies. Analysts, agents, supervisors, lawyers and many other bureaucrats comb through the data and report it. Methods and proof are closely guarded for security reasons but the conclusion is public. In any other debate (except for climate change), the testimony of the collective works of the agencies is accepted as proof.

If they checked the paper trail of voting machines and noted a discrepancy (meaning someone hacked it), why don't they present it? There's plenty of stuff leaking as it is, so this shouldn't be too hard. I don't believe that invisible proof should be accepted that uncritically, I'm sorry. If NASA would do that, one would have to admit that climate risk deniers have a point. I trust what NASA says because people I trust (bloggers, etc) have looked at the data and confirmed it, not just because NASA says it.

And NASA has a fantastic track record, when compared to lying, warmongering agencies like the CIA, NSA and FBI.