Arctic Sea Ice : Forum

Off-topic => The rest => Topic started by: sidd on September 05, 2017, 05:40:49 AM

Title: Ukraine, Nazis and western support
Post by: sidd on September 05, 2017, 05:40:49 AM
Kick off this thread with some articles detailing the long and sordid history of western collaboration with Nazis in the Ukraine:

https://www.thenation.com/article/seven-decades-nazi-collaboration-americas-dirty-little-ukraine-secret/ (https://www.thenation.com/article/seven-decades-nazi-collaboration-americas-dirty-little-ukraine-secret/)

http://www.archives.gov/iwg/reports/hitlers-shadow.pdf (http://www.archives.gov/iwg/reports/hitlers-shadow.pdf)

https://shadowproof.com/2014/08/09/cia-intervention-in-ukraine-has-been-taking-place-for-decades/ (https://shadowproof.com/2014/08/09/cia-intervention-in-ukraine-has-been-taking-place-for-decades/)

sidd

Title: Re: Ukraine, Nazis and western support
Post by: TerryM on September 05, 2017, 05:13:01 PM
sidd
Glad that you've mentioned Operation Gladio. I'm unsure of how many Gladio victims are/were aware of just who their enemy is/was. The false flags they perpetrated/perpetrate were & are an affront to democracy.
It's just within the past few months that Langley admitted to having overthrown the democratically elected government of Iran, back in 1953, and installing their own torturing, murdering, puppet.


Did some statute of limitations pass? Since the perpetrators have long since past away, can't the institutions they labored for be charged, found guilty by their own admission, and be forced into receivership as they attempt to pay reparations?
It's nonsense of course to expect the US to play by the same rules the rest of the world adheres to. The US proclaims itself to be "The Exceptional Nation". She charts her own course, obeys only when it suits her purpose, and woe onto any nation that expects parity.


Sorry for sliding a little off topic.
As an American resident when Freedom Fries took their meteoric rise in popularity I'm keenly aware of the power of American propaganda, and the American peoples capacity for swallowing it with never a complaint about what they're being fed.
Terry
Title: Re: Ukraine, Nazis and western support
Post by: TerryM on September 05, 2017, 06:21:06 PM
Months before the coup in Ukraine was viable The Exceptional One had sought bids for building a proper US Naval Base in Crimea. Officers quarters, enlisted barracks, even a Baptist Church to serve in this region where the Orthodox religion spars with a minority of Muslims.


Mr. Putin's "Polite Men in Green" came to the aid of the indigenous peoples and ended this madness. Saying that they came is not accurate, they were in fact already in place as a small proportion of the Russian Military that had been legally there for some hundreds of years. They were there under an ongoing agreement that had been in place since Ukraine became a separate entity.


When Crimeans voted first for their independence from Ukraine, then to ask for inclusion into Russia, their votes mirrored what western polling companies had expected, overwhelming support for both measures. Russian troops apparently had little or no influence since the pollsters had already predicted the results with some accuracy. Putin's refusal to grant equal protection to the residents of Eastern Ukraine arguably resulted in the massacre of Odessa and the continual loss of civilian life.


Had Putin's desire been the occupation of Ukraine, he would at a minimum have annexed Donbass and adjacent territory. When Ukrainian conscripts strayed across the Russian border after one of the Separatist encirclement's they were fed, bathed, and sent on their way. This treatment at the hands of the Russians caused many to question their superiors and yet another round of conscription was required.
I don't believe this treatment was accidental. It was simple, bloodless and effective. After this "special units" were required behind the front lines to shoot any of the conscripts that refused to push forward. Not an ideal situation for any army.


The "special units" were primarily from the radical Nazi Azov Brigade, one of the groups that marches under symbols that have been banned in Germany since the end of WWII. Azov has since been upgraded to a Regiment.
The fact that Azov's leaders have won parliamentary seats, and that the US Congress once past a bill forbidding further arming and training of these Neo-Nazi fighters may address some of the concerns this thread aims at.


Terry


 
Title: Re: Ukraine, Nazis and western support
Post by: Sebastian Jones on September 05, 2017, 06:46:56 PM
You make some interesting assertions Terry, assertions at odds with the narrative to which I have been exposed. Do you have any references?
Title: Re: Ukraine, Nazis and western support
Post by: TerryM on September 05, 2017, 07:09:56 PM
You make some interesting assertions Terry, assertions at odds with the narrative to which I have been exposed. Do you have any references?


I'm unsure which assertions you refer to. Wiki covers the Azov Brigade fairly, I believe the Pew Poll was instrumental in Crimean polling prior to their elections and Vineyard of the Saker's archives may allude to the treatment of Ukrainian Conscripts. One of their contributors is a Texan who was in Crimea and has written a book on the times. I no longer remember his name, or the book's title I'm afraid.
My primary source at the time has been systematically destroyed so no references remain. Today I don't even remember the name given to the debacle when the conscripts ended up with no ammunition, fuel or food and fled across the border.
If you can point out a single statement that needs validating I'll do my best to dig it up.
At the time I was spending in excess of 8 hrs.day researching the ongoing situation. I fully expected the blog I was on to remain in place and seldom bookmarked particular items, just as I expect Neven's sites to remain as evidence of what we witness in the Arctic.
As said, I will try to clear up any information you require.


Terry
Title: Re: Ukraine, Nazis and western support
Post by: Rob Dekker on September 06, 2017, 09:05:52 AM
You make some interesting assertions Terry, assertions at odds with the narrative to which I have been exposed. Do you have any references?
I'm unsure which assertions you refer to.

Let's start with the first sentence :
Quote
Months before the coup in Ukraine was viable The Exceptional One had sought bids for building a proper US Naval Base in Crimea.

Please provide a reference to that, and explain who "The Exceptional One" is.
Title: Re: Ukraine, Nazis and western support
Post by: Rob Dekker on September 06, 2017, 09:34:19 AM
Sidd, this thread started from the RussiaGate thread where you stated :
Quote
Agreed that Bandera factions are marginal vote in Ukraine. Unfortunately, western powers are arming those margins, exactly as they did in the Gladio history. As before, no good will come of this, especially since Russia considers Ukraine central to Russian interest.

I'm glad that you agree that the fringe right in Ukraine represents an insignificant proportion of the Ukraine population (1.8 % to Right Sector in the 2014 parliamentary elections, and 0.9 % for their leader in the 2014 presidential elections).

So the first thing in your statement that begs for evidence is your second sentence :
Quote
western powers are arming those margins, exactly as they did in the Gladio history

Actually. lets break it into two parts :
Quote
western powers are arming those margins,

I read your references above, and nowhere do I see any evidence that "western powers" are arming those margins (meaning Right Sector, or Azov or any fringe-right margin) in Ukraine.
If I missed something, please enlighten me.

For the second part :
Quote
exactly as they did in the Gladio history
you did not provide ANY evidence nor ANY links.
I read the wiki page on Gladio :
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Gladio
and the word "Ukraine" does not even appear there, let alone right-wing factions in Ukraine.

And we did not even discuss the last sentence in your opening statement, which suggest that Russia feels that it has colonial claims to a neighbor sovereign nation; something I thought we (as the citizens of this planet) had settled (as NOT OK) in the 20th century through the UN and international treaties.
Title: Re: Ukraine, Nazis and western support
Post by: TerryM on September 06, 2017, 10:22:58 AM
You make some interesting assertions Terry, assertions at odds with the narrative to which I have been exposed. Do you have any references?
I'm unsure which assertions you refer to.

Let's start with the first sentence :
Quote
Months before the coup in Ukraine was viable The Exceptional One had sought bids for building a proper US Naval Base in Crimea.

Please provide a reference to that, and explain who "The Exceptional One" is.


Surely there is only one nation that holds itself to be "The Exceptional One".


As one might expect, most of the bids have been withdrawn in the light of recent developments, the American Navy did however leave at least one bid standing from Sept. 5 of 2013 for the rebuilding of a Sevastopol school.
https://www.fbo.gov/index?s=opportunity&mode=form&id=2bb691b61c59be3a68180bd8c614a0cb&tab=core&tabmode=list (https://www.fbo.gov/index?s=opportunity&mode=form&id=2bb691b61c59be3a68180bd8c614a0cb&tab=core&tabmode=list)


I believe I heard of the Baptist Church from the Texan I'd previously mentioned. It was he who noted that the Orthodox and Muslim inhabitants would find little solstice there.


Google works when you work it!
Terry


 
Title: Re: Ukraine, Nazis and western support
Post by: Rob Dekker on September 06, 2017, 10:43:23 AM
As one might expect, most of the bids have been withdrawn in the light of recent developments, the American Navy did however leave at least one bid standing from Sept. 5 of 2013 for the rebuilding of a Sevastopol school.

Ah. So it wasn't a "Naval Base", it was just a school in Ukraine.
And this school renovation was cancelled as well since the Russians took over. From your link :
Quote
Added: Apr 15, 2014 5:18 am
Due to the current climate in Ukraine, the subject solicitation is hereby cancelled.

Seriously, Terry. Where is the beef ?
Title: Re: Ukraine, Nazis and western support
Post by: Martin Gisser on September 06, 2017, 03:29:57 PM
Here's the very trustworthy Russia Today on these U.S. Navy charitable projects:
https://www.rt.com/news/154180-us-navy-crimea-charity/ (https://www.rt.com/news/154180-us-navy-crimea-charity/)
Quote
Why NAVFAC Europe and Southwest Asia would spend the US military budget funds to renovate public installations in Crimea is an open question, yet the idea that this was made out of pure charity is doubtful.

The Voice of America website in Russian maintains that such renovation projects is a normal practice for the US military, which also has similar projects for Albania, Armenia, Bosnia and Herzegovina, Bulgaria (several kindergartens renovated in 2011), Georgia, Latvia, Macedonia, Montenegro, Romania and Serbia.

Yet practically all these countries are either NATO members (Albania, Bulgaria, Latvia, Romania), or have American military bases deployed on their territory.

The reason behind this activity is perhaps the Budapest Memorandum on Security Assurances.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Budapest_Memorandum_on_Security_Assurances (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Budapest_Memorandum_on_Security_Assurances)
Quote
The Budapest Memorandum on Security Assurances refers to three identical political agreements signed at the OSCE conference in Budapest, Hungary on 5 December 1994, providing security assurances by its signatories relating to Belarus's, Kazakhstan's and Ukraine's accession to the Treaty on the Non-Proliferation of Nuclear Weapons. The memorandum was originally signed by three nuclear powers, the Russian Federation, the United States of America, and the United Kingdom. China and France gave somewhat weaker individual assurances in separate documents.[1]
The memorandum included security assurances against threats or use of force against the territorial integrity or political independence of Ukraine, Belarus and Kazakhstan.
As a result, between 1994 and 1996, Belarus, Kazakhstan and Ukraine gave up their nuclear weapons.
(my emph.)

So, methinks Occam and his razor would think these renovations of schools, hospitals, churches are psychological warfare to make Ukrainians feels safe from Russia. :)

------------
Naturally there's lots of Russian propaganda on these matters. What surprises me is how quite a few Americans desperately want to believe this propaganda.
(BTW, did you know Rachel Maddow wants nuclear war with Russia :)
Title: Re: Ukraine, Nazis and western support
Post by: Martin Gisser on September 06, 2017, 03:56:33 PM
I believe I heard of the Baptist Church from the Texan I'd previously mentioned. It was he who noted that the Orthodox and Muslim inhabitants would find little solstice there.


Google works when you work it!
Terry
Google indeed. Good you forgot this Texan. Here's what I got:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baptists_in_Ukraine
Quote
The Baptist Church in Ukraine is one of the oldest and most widespread Protestant Christian denominations in the country. Before the fall of the Soviet Union, over half the 1.5 million acknowledged Baptists and Pentecostals in the USSR lived in Soviet Ukraine. Prior to independence in 1991, Ukraine was home to the second largest Baptist community in the world, after the United States, and was called the “Bible Belt” of the Soviet Union.

...
History

The predecessors of today's Baptists, the Anabaptists, were in Ukraine in the 16th century.[1]
The first Baptist baptism (or "baptism by faith" of adult people) in Ukraine took place in 1864 on the river Inhul in the Yelizavetgrad region (now Kropyvnytskyi region), in a German settlement. In 1867, the first Baptist communities were organized in that area. From there, the denomination spread to the south of Ukraine and then to other regions as well. One of the first Baptist communities was registered in Kiev in 1907, and in 1908 the First All-Russian Convention of Baptists was held there. The All-Russian Union of Baptists was established in the town of Yekaterinoslav (now Dnipro).[when?] At the end of the 19th century, estimates are that there were from 100,000 to 300,000 Baptists in Ukraine.[4]
(my emph.)

So shocking! :)
Title: Re: Ukraine, Nazis and western support
Post by: Rob Dekker on September 07, 2017, 07:14:44 AM
Naturally there's lots of Russian propaganda on these matters. What surprises me is how quite a few Americans desperately want to believe this propaganda.

+1
Title: Re: Ukraine, Nazis and western support
Post by: sidd on September 07, 2017, 07:56:28 AM
1) Re: Western support for Nazis in Ukraine

a) I have already posted evidence for 70 years of US government support for Ukrainian nazis.

b) For more contemporary support see the 2016 Consolidated Appropriations Act, Ukraine Security Assistance Initiative. 250e6 US$ for "training; equipment; lethal weapons of a defensive nature; logistics support, supplies and services; sustainment; and intelligence support to the military and national security forces of Ukraine" plus unknown fractions of 650e6US$ on "international security assistance. " Congress reps had previously voted to stop any of this aid going to the nazis like the Azov brigade (congressman Conyers, D- Michigan), but so sad, that didnt make it to the final version that Obama signed.

Azov is now a brigade in the Ukrainian National guard, who have had trainers from the USA (and UK and Canada) since April 2015. The first thing they get trained in is probably  to hide the swastikas.

The 2016 appropriations act is on the congress sites, but make sure you get the final version. The following link has some detail:

https://www.wsws.org/en/articles/2016/02/01/azov-f01.html (https://www.wsws.org/en/articles/2016/02/01/azov-f01.html)

c) For non governmental support closer to home, look up the UCCA (Ukrainian Congress Committee of America.) These charming people exalt Bandera, and jew killers like Yaroslav Stetsko and Roman Shukhevych. Their chairman, Lev Dobriansky was Reagan's ambassador to Bahamas, and his daughter wound up on the National Security Council. Reagan actually welcomed Stetsko to the White House. UCCA marched in Chicago under the banners of OUN (Organization of Ukrainian Nationalists) and UPA (Ukrainian Insurgent Army.) Those two are some of the vilest nazi orgs you will come across.

http://www.salon.com/2014/02/25/is_the_us_backing_neo_nazis_in_ukraine_partner/ (http://www.salon.com/2014/02/25/is_the_us_backing_neo_nazis_in_ukraine_partner/)

d) in the leaked Nuland tape, she explicitly makes an agreement for her lackey, Yatsenyuk, to meet with Oleh Tyahnybok (Svoboda) four times a week. That agreement led directly to the following appointments:

 i) Deputy prime minister Oleksandr Sych from Svoboda
 ii)  National Security Secretary Andriy Parubiy co-founder of the neo-Nazi Social-National Party, Svoboda’s earlier incarnation
 iii) deputy secretary for National Security Dmytro Yarosh, the head of Right Sector
 iv) Chief prosecutor Oleh Makhnitsky from Svoboda
  v) ministers for Agriculture and Ecology also Svoboda

The Nuland tape is all over (google for "Fuck the EU" and Nuland ) and the ukrainian cabinet appointments
may be seen in

http://fair.org/home/denying-the-far-right-role-in-the-ukrainian-revolution/ (http://fair.org/home/denying-the-far-right-role-in-the-ukrainian-revolution/)

So Svoboda and Pravyi Sektor are not quite so marginal it seems. Oleh Tyahnybok, Svoboda leader was cozying up to Senator McCain, shared a platform at a rally with him, has met with Nuland.


2) Re: " ... the last sentence in your opening statement, which suggest that Russia feels that it has colonial claims to a neighbor sovereign nation"
 
Not quite. My statement was: "Russia considers Ukraine central to Russian interest." I am willing to discuss my statement, but i am not interested in paraphrases thereof.

sidd


Title: Re: Ukraine, Nazis and western support
Post by: TerryM on September 07, 2017, 08:06:10 AM
Not only shocking, but damn near unbelievable!


While Wiki reports 1.9% of Ukrainians as Protestant, their article on Crimean religion lists:


Russian Orthodox
Sunni Muslim


And smaller numbers of:


Roman Catholics
Ukrainian Greek Catholics
Armenian Apostolics
And Jewish minorities


Neither Protestants, nor the subset of this group that the Baptists must represent are even listed.


Probably as easy to find a Baptist working in Crimea as an Amish toiling away in New York City, and it is Crimea we're concerning ourselves with.


As far as the US Navy renovating grade schools (remember there is Sevastopol's school #22 as well as school #5), at the edge of Russian Naval Bases, one wonders why Honolulu, San Diego and Norfolk haven't tapped into this vast philanthropic resource?


Russia's lease on that base wasn't set to run out until at least 2042, so the US Navy certainly must have been anxious to provide up to date educational facilities for the children of the Russian Fleet. Such generosity boggles the mind.


The other requests for bids have either been taken down, or are archived somewhere. My poor internet search skills haven't located any others in 2017, but it has been some while. At one time my (quite distinctive) car was visible at three Nevada archaeological sites, as well as in my driveway. I can't find those Google Earth pages either.


Terry
Title: Re: Ukraine, Nazis and western support
Post by: Martin Gisser on September 07, 2017, 04:54:55 PM
The Ukrainian nationalists remind me of U.S. Tea Party folks and Trump's hardcore supporters, some of which are seriously Nazi, but most are just dumb rednecks. The difference in Ukraine is that they have a serious enemy, Russia, and insist in an independent Ukrainian nation.


UCCA marched in Chicago under the banners of OUN (Organization of Ukrainian Nationalists) and UPA (Ukrainian Insurgent Army.) Those two are some of the vilest nazi orgs you will come across.

http://www.salon.com/2014/02/25/is_the_us_backing_neo_nazis_in_ukraine_partner/ (http://www.salon.com/2014/02/25/is_the_us_backing_neo_nazis_in_ukraine_partner/)
The article forgets to mention that Bandera was imprisoned in Germany when Ukrainian nationalists were committing war crimes:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stepan_Bandera (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stepan_Bandera)
Quote
Despite the central role played by Bandera's followers in the massacre of Poles in western Ukraine, Bandera himself was interned in a German concentration camp when the concrete decision to massacre the Poles was made and when the Poles were killed. According to Jaroslaw Hrycak, during his internment, from the summer of 1941, he was not completely aware of events in Ukraine and moreover had serious differences of opinion with Mykola Lebed, the OUN-B leader who remained in Ukraine and who was one of the chief architects of the massacres of Poles.[40][41] Bandera was thus not directly involved in those massacres.[40][unreliable source?]

...

A report, dated 30 March 1942, sent to the Gestapo in Berlin, claimed that "the Bandera movement provided forged passports not only for its own members, but also for Jews."[60] The false papers were most likely supplied to Jewish doctors or skilled workers who could be useful for the movement.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stepan_Bandera (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stepan_Bandera)

[BTW]If you want to have a look at seriously vile non-German Nazi stuff, look at the Croatian Ustashe. (Warning: WWII Croatian concentration camps were even nauseating their German peers. This stuff is a degree more horrible than Auschwitz stuff, qualitatively (but of course not quantitatively). The grandma of a friend told about a necklace of human ears sold at a flea market...)
http://foreignpolicy.com/2016/05/06/croatias-far-right-weaponizes-the-past-ustase-hasanbegovic/ (http://foreignpolicy.com/2016/05/06/croatias-far-right-weaponizes-the-past-ustase-hasanbegovic/)
[/BTW]

-----------------

In summer 2014 I met some Euromaidan activists on the Rainbow Family world gathering ("world congress of hippies") in Hungaria. They were no Nazi at all. One was complaining about some Hungarian hippies' attitude towards gypsies. The red-black flags seen at Maidan place were meant to symbolize red blood on black earth, a carried by sort of hooligan "black block" people who were fighting/defending against police attacks.

BTW German soccer hooligans can also be quite Nazi.
Title: Re: Ukraine, Nazis and western support
Post by: TerryM on September 07, 2017, 07:30:28 PM
Martin


I don't understand why you wrote the above?


Which atrocities Stepan Bandera was or was not guilty of makes no difference.
Today Bandera is a symbol, and he doesn't represent prisoners rights, the Tea Party, or a reasoned approach to foreign affairs. Stepan Bandera became a symbol of a particularly viscous strain of Nazi philosophy, and whenever his name is evoked, his birthday remembered, or his image screened, the message, to friend and foe alike, is that those marching, or singing, or fighting, are attempting to evoke the "spirit" of Bandera. The spirit of a vicious xenophobe who boasted of his inhumanity and his Nazi affiliations.


If I were to march through Selma under the banner of MLK I'd attract a very different crowd than if I marched under a banner of Malcolm X. The difference isn't due as much to what these civil rights leaders did 50 years ago, the difference is in what they represent today.


So too with the Wolfs Angle, the Black Sun and the Swastika. It doesn't matter if the swastika was a Hindu symbol for good luck, it does matter that those marching under the banner believe it to be a symbol expressing their own vicious xenophobia.


If Stepan Bandera's whitewash was effective, and he was perceived as a victim of his time, and the paragon of restraint, his present followers would simply adopt another screaming Nazi as their spiritual head. The reality of Stepan Bandera crumbles under the symbol of Stepan Bandera, and it's this symbol that The Right Sector, The Azov Brigade, and so many others have chosen as their own.


Terry
Title: Re: Ukraine, Nazis and western support
Post by: Martin Gisser on September 07, 2017, 08:02:09 PM
I don't understand why you wrote the above?
Because I think Ukrainian Nazis are overhyped compared to e.g. Hungaria, Germany and yes even U.S.A. In east Germany there are practically no-go areas where I would not buy cheap rural property. (Some hippie friends had very bad experiences there, e.g. being shot at, and left their old farm again.)

I haven't yet figured the role of Russian propaganda here...
Title: Re: Ukraine, Nazis and western support
Post by: TerryM on September 07, 2017, 08:31:03 PM

Because I think Ukrainian Nazis are overhyped compared to e.g. Hungaria, Germany and yes even U.S.A. In east Germany there are practically no-go areas where I would not buy cheap rural property. (Some hippie friends had very bad experiences there, e.g. being shot at, and left their old farm again.)

I haven't yet figured the role of Russian propaganda here...
I don't know the situation in Hungary or Germany.
Do they have Nazi brigades that fly Nazi flags?
Do they have elected officials that lead Nazi soldiers?
Have they integrated Nazi Brigades into their National guard?


I do know that none of these elements are present in the US, at this time.
There was outrage when some Canadian soldiers were found with swastika tattoos a few years back. Is there an equivalent backlash in Ukraine?


If a Russian cameraman photographs Ukrainian soldiers parading through a Ukrainian town in full Nazi array, and captures the locals waving Wolves Angles as they scream their approval, is this propaganda?
At some time pointing out inconvenient truths ceases to be propaganda & becomes news, perhaps even needed news.


If Hungarian and German Nazis are emerging I'd like to know, and their respective governments need to know. We don't need another Maidana.


Terry
Title: Re: Ukraine, Nazis and western support
Post by: Rob Dekker on September 09, 2017, 06:57:32 AM
sidd and Terry, I hear you guys, that you are really obsessed with the far right in Ukraine, but I would like you to broaden your views a bit and do some fact checking along the way for the things that you claim.

For example, we already determined that far-right nationalists in Ukraine represent a tiny fraction of the population (Right Sector only obtaining 1.8 % of the vote).
So here is what I think is at the core of sidd's argument ; that nazis have a wider role in the government of Ukraine than in the population, and that the US is at least facilitating that role :


1) Re: Western support for Nazis in Ukraine
....
d) in the leaked Nuland tape, she explicitly makes an agreement for her lackey, Yatsenyuk, to meet with Oleh Tyahnybok (Svoboda) four times a week. That agreement led directly to the following appointments:

 i) Deputy prime minister Oleksandr Sych from Svoboda
 ii)  National Security Secretary Andriy Parubiy co-founder of the neo-Nazi Social-National Party, Svoboda’s earlier incarnation
 iii) deputy secretary for National Security Dmytro Yarosh, the head of Right Sector
 iv) Chief prosecutor Oleh Makhnitsky from Svoboda
  v) ministers for Agriculture and Ecology also Svoboda

The Nuland tape is all over (google for "Fuck the EU" and Nuland ) and the ukrainian cabinet appointments
may be seen in

http://fair.org/home/denying-the-far-right-role-in-the-ukrainian-revolution/ (http://fair.org/home/denying-the-far-right-role-in-the-ukrainian-revolution/)

So Svoboda and Pravyi Sektor are not quite so marginal it seems. Oleh Tyahnybok, Svoboda leader was cozying up to Senator McCain, shared a platform at a rally with him, has met with Nuland.
.....

So let's do some fact-checking on that.
For starters, not everyone is convinced that "Svoboda" is a "nazi" party.
When I read the wiki pages on this party :
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Svoboda_(political_party) (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Svoboda_(political_party))
I noticed that they were tiny when they still had this ultra-nationalist agenda with a wolfsangel symbol before 2004. But in 2004 they abandoned that symbol and for their agenda moved away from the extreme right and became much more 'center' stage. Still very much 'nationalistic' (pro-Ukraine) but in my opinion less so than, say, Trump is in the US (America first). Some scholars even put them 'left-of-center' at this time.
https://www.realclearpolitics.com/articles/2014/05/21/fascism_comes_to_ukraine_--_from_russia_122700.html (https://www.realclearpolitics.com/articles/2014/05/21/fascism_comes_to_ukraine_--_from_russia_122700.html)

Either way, this move, away from the extreme right, since 2004 helped them big-time since they increased in popularity, to the point where in 2012 they obtained a whopping 37 seats in parliament.

Now back to the Svoboda appointees that sidd mentions above.
As far as I can see, these guys were appointed for the interim government after the ousting of Yanukovich (March 2014) and they resigned after Svoboda was hammered in the October 2014 elections. I have to assume that they were appointed in the interim government because Svoboda had 37 seats in parliament at that time.

So, you see ? Makes sense and democracy worked in Ukraine.
Normal reasoning and a bit of fact checking kills any conspiracy theories about Nazis in Ukraine, Nuland or the US that are promoted in Russian media.

[edit] Oh. Forgot about that "deputy secretary for National Security" : Yarosh never obtained that position.
Title: Re: Ukraine, Nazis and western support
Post by: Rob Dekker on September 09, 2017, 07:33:39 AM
I don't know the situation in Hungary or Germany.
Do they have Nazi brigades that fly Nazi flags?
...
If a Russian cameraman photographs Ukrainian soldiers parading through a Ukrainian town in full Nazi array, and captures the locals waving Wolves Angles as they scream their approval, is this propaganda?

Terry, when you claimed that the US Navy was planning to build a Naval base in Crimea, we asked for a reference. You could not come up with one.
So now this is the second time asking for a reference to your claims.

The thing is that we KNOW from MH17, that Russia is willing to lie and cheat and misinform and blame Ukraine, and fabricate evidence in their news outlets.

So you should be EXTREMELY cautious when you obtained you info from a Russian news source.
If you post it, then maybe we can do some fact checking together.
Would that help ?
Title: Re: Ukraine, Nazis and western support
Post by: Rob Dekker on September 09, 2017, 08:11:04 AM
Oh. And Terry, you were talking about nazis (or right wing extremists) in governments of other nations :
Look at this list :
http://anton-shekhovtsov.blogspot.com/2014/03/pro-russian-extremists-observe.html (http://anton-shekhovtsov.blogspot.com/2014/03/pro-russian-extremists-observe.html)
Incidentally that is a list of "international observers" that Putin invited for the (illegal) Crimea "referendum".

Wake up, and smell the coffee.
Title: Re: Ukraine, Nazis and western support
Post by: sidd on September 09, 2017, 07:16:54 PM
I stated that western powers were aiding Nazi groups in the Ukraine, and I provided evidence to that effect. Stipulated that Svoboda lost elected reps in 2014 but the fact remains that a US diplomat explicitly did a deal including them. The fact remains that western governments are arming training ukrainian military personnel which include nazi elements. The fact remains that the UCCA allies with nazi groups.  As to the reformation of Svoboda away from Nazism, I shall retain my doubts.

In a larger sense, I guess I am unwilling to see my tax dollars support such groups and causes, and i shall act to change the situation. Others here apparently are not concerned enough by nazi associations of these groups so we are in disagreement.

sidd
Title: Re: Ukraine, Nazis and western support
Post by: Martin Gisser on September 09, 2017, 07:39:50 PM
Oh. And Terry, you were talking about nazis (or right wing extremists) in governments of other nations :
Look at this list :
http://anton-shekhovtsov.blogspot.com/2014/03/pro-russian-extremists-observe.html (http://anton-shekhovtsov.blogspot.com/2014/03/pro-russian-extremists-observe.html)
Incidentally that is a list of "international observers" that Putin invited for the (illegal) Crimea "referendum".
...
Yeah.
Russia is supporting right-wing/Nazi movements all over Europe. E.g. LePen in France (luckily the French are some of the least dumbest folk in Europe).

So, I'm smelling projection. Like, the Trumpeteers' anti-Hillary propaganda. (Now, who is going to get locked up? Who is the swamp in DC? Etc etc... Hahaha, and who the f%$§ is criminally neglecting basic email security?)
Title: Re: Ukraine, Nazis and western support
Post by: TerryM on September 10, 2017, 06:55:13 AM
I don't know the situation in Hungary or Germany.
Do they have Nazi brigades that fly Nazi flags?
...
If a Russian cameraman photographs Ukrainian soldiers parading through a Ukrainian town in full Nazi array, and captures the locals waving Wolves Angles as they scream their approval, is this propaganda?

Terry, when you claimed that the US Navy was planning to build a Naval base in Crimea, we asked for a reference. You could not come up with one.
Actually I did respond with three references. The fact that you didn't accept them is quite a different proposition from claiming that I "could not come up with one".
The fact that this failed covert operation, which occurred ~4 yrs ago, has left any breadcrumbs to mark it's passing is remarkable in itself.
Quote
So now this is the second time asking for a reference to your claims.
Just what is it that you want proof of?
Do you need me to prove that neither Hungary or Germany have National Guard Brigades that march under flags that are illegal to fly in Germany?
At some point reductio ad absurdum must have crossed your mind. Pictures of Nazi brigades in full dress array marching through Berlin or Budapest today, brings to mind one of Mel Brooks satires. Springtime for Hitler and Germany undoubtedly would be the accompaniment.
Quote
The thing is that we KNOW from MH17, that Russia is willing to lie and cheat and misinform and blame Ukraine, and fabricate evidence in their news outlets.
The only thing that we "KNOW" from MH17's untimely downing is that Putin's Presidential jet was in the air at ~the same time, in ~the same location, with the Russian President aboard. That someone shot MH17 down using a ground to air missile, an air to air missile, or machine gun fire from rather close range.
In addition we can infer that the US and her allies, as well as the Russians, have radar and satellite images that will prove to everyone's satisfaction exactly who did what to whom. The fact that neither side has made their own images available is at the minimum perplexing.
Quote
So you should be EXTREMELY cautious when you obtained you info from a Russian news source.
Actually I use extreme caution obtaining information from any news source. While these events were occurring I was reading reports from people on the ground in both Ukraine and Crimea. They of course had their own biases, but all were reporting on the same events from their own varied perspectives.
Quote
If you post it, then maybe we can do some fact checking together.
Since you don't accept my sources, my assumptions, or my experiences, I'm unsure what you hope to accomplish.


What occurred in Ukraine was and is painful. I'm not an overly emotional person, but viewing a middle aged women with her legs blown off, lying in the street and asking what had happened to her daughter affected me. Government forces were the only ones in the air at that time. Video of a very pregnant, freshly raped body, with the telephone wire that strangled her still taut gives me shivers when I recall Odessa.
These were not isolated occurrences. Odessa was planned and executed as a cautionary lesson to anyone who didn't jump when Kiev demanded it. People did return to their villages, only to find their neighbors gone and strangers eating at their table.
I followed all of this in real time. I learned a lesson about how these regimes come to power, how governmental terrorism works, and something of the power of propaganda.
Quote
Would that help ?
To accomplish what?
You seem to have swallowed the Ukrainian/American packet in it's entirety. It distresses me when a friend, and I consider everyone at Neven's sites as a friend, appears to be in the thralls of ideology. This forum is scientifically literate. We're aware that our biases need to be subservient to our observations. We know that consensus means naught and that one fact outweighs a thousand theories.


What facts would strengthen our hypotheses? What facts might weaken it?
If America were behind the coup does evidence exist?
Nancy Nuland's phone conversation to Pyatt has never been questioned. In fact the state department acknowledged the authenticity of the recording when they apologized for her remarks.


This is very strong evidence that, rather than being an internal Ukrainian uprising, or something that the Kremlin orchestrated, it was instead a plot that Dick Chaney's former foreign affairs adviser was deeply involved in.


Once America's part in overthrowing a democratic government is accepted, the other elements begin to fall into place. Without this basic understanding the subsequent atrocities make little sense. Crimea had petitioned for her independence from Ukraine many times, but this was the straw that stuck in their gullet (to mix a few metaphors). Donbass wanted closer ties to Russia, so her primarily Russian speaking populace became the enemy of the usurpers. Odessa's populace was leaning toward Russia, an example had to be made.
Without understanding the duplicity of those in power in Kiev, and the debt they owe to the US, these destructive actions seem to be acts of national suicide.
In this instance the nation of Ukraine's survival is of less importance than disrupting Russia's energy sales to the Eu. Yats, Poroshenko and Biden are in it for the money - and what happened to the tons of gold that were spirited out of the country?


Thousands of dead civilians in Donbass mean little to those that consider the murder of 300k children in Iraq to be "worth it".
Another failed state counts for little when global hegemony is the goal.
The people of Ukraine are the victims of the deep state, even the Nazis.


Terry
Title: Re: Ukraine, Nazis and western support
Post by: Martin Gisser on September 10, 2017, 07:14:30 AM
Links, please, Terry. Quick clicks we want. :)
Title: Re: Ukraine, Nazis and western support
Post by: sidd on September 10, 2017, 07:19:17 AM
For me, the Odessa massacre exposed exactly who the Obama and the USA were in bed with.

sidd
Title: Re: Ukraine, Nazis and western support
Post by: TerryM on September 10, 2017, 11:21:57 AM
For me, the Odessa massacre exposed exactly who the Obama and the USA were in bed with.

sidd
It took a good three weeks & hundreds of videos and photos to sort the whole thing out.


The secret is to look for red armbands. Forget uniforms, masks, and positions just concentrate on who is wearing red duck tape on their arm.
They are the ones shooting into the crowd at the football arena, they are the ones retreating through the "separatist's" camp, they are the ones that were clubbing to death those who leapt from the burning building.


The most savage, planned and executed attack on civilians I've ever witnessed. Bombs have killed far more, but this was an up close and person slaughter of their countrymen.
Terry
Title: Re: Ukraine, Nazis and western support
Post by: Rob Dekker on September 11, 2017, 06:33:23 AM
I don't know the situation in Hungary or Germany.
Do they have Nazi brigades that fly Nazi flags?
...
If a Russian cameraman photographs Ukrainian soldiers parading through a Ukrainian town in full Nazi array, and captures the locals waving Wolves Angles as they scream their approval, is this propaganda?

Terry, when you claimed that the US Navy was planning to build a Naval base in Crimea, we asked for a reference. You could not come up with one.
Actually I did respond with three references. The fact that you didn't accept them is quite a different proposition from claiming that I "could not come up with one".

Terry, this is getting silly.
So far we have asked references to THREE claims you have made :
1) Your claim that the US Navy was planning to build a Naval base in Crimea
2) Your claim that "Nazi brigades that fly Nazi flags"
3) Your claim that "a Russian cameraman photographs Ukrainian soldiers parading through a Ukrainian town in full Nazi array, and captures the locals waving Wolves Angles as they scream their approval,"

So far you responded with with ONE reference (not three) which pointed to the renovation of a school in Ukraine under a US aid program.

That's it.

Did you forget where you found your info ? Or are you just make this stuff up and are deliberately spreading fake-news in this fine forum ?
Title: Re: Ukraine, Nazis and western support
Post by: Rob Dekker on September 11, 2017, 07:26:15 AM
Since neither Sidd nor Terry appear to be able to produce any evidence of Nazi's fighting on the Ukraine side, let me start off and present a few that I found. Only these ones are fighting on the side of the Russians :

http://ukraineatwar.blogspot.com/2015/06/nazi-fighter-oksana-nikadimova-allowed.html (http://ukraineatwar.blogspot.com/2015/06/nazi-fighter-oksana-nikadimova-allowed.html)

She received this medal :
(https://forum.arctic-sea-ice.net/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2F1.bp.blogspot.com%2F-iOuWehWJBN0%2FVYCnr-K7OnI%2FAAAAAAAAcF8%2F5YmtlpJQSQ0%2Fs640%2FKnipsel6.JPG&hash=0686364d9814b5ba25888e7d22b6829f)

and she clearly has a friendly relationship with puppy-killer neo-Nazi Alexey Milchakov

(https://forum.arctic-sea-ice.net/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2F2.bp.blogspot.com%2F-610iGq0Dqfk%2FVYCj4tB7U3I%2FAAAAAAAAcFM%2FCHeZis1H1-o%2Fs640%2FwPAUPlVmSog.jpg&hash=ed4b545a5188220b844842b152fe8cf1)

who makes it very clear what his orientation is :
(https://forum.arctic-sea-ice.net/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2F1.bp.blogspot.com%2F-sxPVF8bdgqU%2FVXaw1XiSAiI%2FAAAAAAAAb6w%2F_Tn5N7oXONc%2Fs1600%2Ftumblr_inline_n83u3j4DRK1r15jty.jpg&hash=02871e8531de1976dd6760a47150d124)

So neo-nazis ARE fighting for the Russian side, and at least one is doubling as a journalist, and is even granted access to OSCE trips behind the front lines, nicely spying on Ukraine's military.

And these two are not the only ones.
Neo-Nazis seem to be at the core of the "Novorossiya" effort in Donbass
http://ukraineatwar.blogspot.com/2015/06/nazis-are-core-of-russias-hybrid-army.html (http://ukraineatwar.blogspot.com/2015/06/nazis-are-core-of-russias-hybrid-army.html)
Including the self-proclaimed "People's Governor of Donetsk" Paul Gubarev.

And meanwhile Russia is accusing Ukraine of being Nazi ??

Russian hypocrisy is mind boggling especially when it comes to Ukraine.
Title: Re: Ukraine, Nazis and western support
Post by: Martin Gisser on September 12, 2017, 12:15:05 AM
So, I'm smelling projection. Like, the Trumpeteers' anti-Hillary propaganda.

So I searched russialies.com/?s=ukraine+nazi and found a handful of stuff. Alas its's big images. (Nice for Facebook, but not here.) So I just give the URLs of the pics.

The first two support my projection theory. The others exhibit brazen lying.

http://www.russialies.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/07/RUSSIAN-FAKE-EXPOSED-EXAMINER-115.png (http://www.russialies.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/07/RUSSIAN-FAKE-EXPOSED-EXAMINER-115.png)

http://www.russialies.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/07/RUSSIAN-FAKE-EXPOSED-EXAMINER-79.jpg (http://www.russialies.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/07/RUSSIAN-FAKE-EXPOSED-EXAMINER-79.jpg)

http://www.russialies.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/07/RUSSIAN-FAKE-EXPOSED-EXAMINER-127.png (http://www.russialies.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/07/RUSSIAN-FAKE-EXPOSED-EXAMINER-127.png)
http://www.russialies.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/07/RUSSIAN-FAKE-EXPOSED-EXAMINER-149.png (http://www.russialies.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/07/RUSSIAN-FAKE-EXPOSED-EXAMINER-149.png)
Lavrov himself lying: http://www.russialies.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/07/RUSSIAN-FAKE-EXPOSED-EXAMINER-148.png (http://www.russialies.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/07/RUSSIAN-FAKE-EXPOSED-EXAMINER-148.png)
Incredible Nazi banner fake: http://www.russialies.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/07/RUSSIAN-FAKE-EXPOSED-EXAMINER-135.png (http://www.russialies.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/07/RUSSIAN-FAKE-EXPOSED-EXAMINER-135.png)
http://www.russialies.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/07/RUSSIAN-FAKE-EXPOSED-EXAMINER-169.png (http://www.russialies.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/07/RUSSIAN-FAKE-EXPOSED-EXAMINER-169.png)
Title: Re: Ukraine, Nazis and western support
Post by: Martin Gisser on September 12, 2017, 12:17:29 AM
Here's the first image as attachment:
Title: Re: Ukraine, Nazis and western support
Post by: Rob Dekker on September 12, 2017, 07:07:10 AM
Sidd, in light of these findings, maybe we should rename the thread to "Ukraine, Nazis and Russian support".
Title: Re: Ukraine, Nazis and western support
Post by: Tunnelforce9 on September 12, 2017, 05:03:28 PM
Hello, interesting discussion you have here.

Svoboda is definitly a nazi party, why else would they enlist someone like Joeri Mychaltsjysjyn as adviser, he runs the Joseph Goebbels Political Research Centre for pete's sake...

I advise you guys to watch the 2 folowing documentaries :

TV1 documentary on the involvement of the asov brigade and other far right militia groups.
https://www.dumpert.nl/embed/6722834/7053f603/ (https://www.dumpert.nl/embed/6722834/7053f603/)   
<French with English subtitles>

BBC piece on the Maidan revolution, where they talk to one of the " snipers of Maidan"
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mJhJ6hks0Jg (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mJhJ6hks0Jg)

Hope you have time to watch the videos, the first one is 55 min the second around 16 min.

Peace,
TF9
Title: Re: Ukraine, Nazis and western support
Post by: Martin Gisser on September 12, 2017, 06:06:07 PM
I'd suggest "Ukraine, Nazis and their support". Nazis are everywhere where there are young stupid violent males. It's a style of expression for many, just like Islamist fundamentalism or Antifa extremism. The blog you quoted also shows evidence of genuine Ukrainian Nazis in the Azov brigade.
http://ukraineatwar.blogspot.de/2014/11/nazis-in-azov-battalion.html (http://ukraineatwar.blogspot.de/2014/11/nazis-in-azov-battalion.html)
(https://3.bp.blogspot.com/-v4Spqq-I_3w/VHcP8b6nV-I/AAAAAAAAYFM/RbPvfbddz2c/s1600/UYVFZCMvNBo.jpg)
Title: Re: Ukraine, Nazis and western support
Post by: Rob Dekker on September 13, 2017, 08:22:32 AM
I'd suggest "Ukraine, Nazis and their support".
I agree.

Maybe with the annotation that the most intimidation piece of equipment that the US has provided are night-vision goggles, and that was to the Ukrainian army, not to independent para military groups that may or may not be "Nazi".

Russia on the other hand has been providing all the commanders (including Strelkov) and Nazi para military groups and thousands of fighters of all sorts of life, and an endless stream of weapons including hundreds of tanks and heavy equipment creating a conflict that caused 6000 civilian deaths and near complete destruction of many parts of Donbass, and even a BUK that was used to shoot down a civilian airplane.

Just to note the difference in "support" from the superpowers in this conflict.
Title: Re: Ukraine, Nazis and western support
Post by: Rob Dekker on September 13, 2017, 08:56:27 AM
Hello, interesting discussion you have here.

Svoboda is definitly a nazi party, why else would they enlist someone like Joeri Mychaltsjysjyn as adviser, he runs the Joseph Goebbels Political Research Centre for pete's sake...

Hi Tunnelforce9, welcome to the discussion. And you sure come in with a bang. Why don't you start with your (real) name ?

Typically, to define a party as Nazi, they need to have some Nazi agenda. Some number of items on the party platform that shows they have Nazi ideas. Do you have a link to Svoboda's platform and which part of that is Nazi in your opinion ?

Many scholars suggest that Svoboda is not Nazi, just rather radical right wing Nationalist.
This scholar suggests they are similar to Vlaams Belang in Belgium :
http://www.eurozine.com/from-electoral-success-to-revolutionary-failure/ (http://www.eurozine.com/from-electoral-success-to-revolutionary-failure/)

Also, regardless of the platform, in the 2014 elections Svoboda represented only 5% of the vote in Ukraine, 10% at the peak in 2012. Incidentally that is similar to Vlaams Belang, who obtained 12% of the Belgium House in 2007 and some 4% in 2014.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vlaams_Belang (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vlaams_Belang)

[edit] Frankly speaking, we have a much bigger problem with far-right nationalists here in the US than they have in Ukraine : The Trump administration is still running at a 38% or so approval rating.
Title: Re: Ukraine, Nazis and western support
Post by: sidd on September 13, 2017, 11:14:49 PM
Re: Azov brigade:
As i have posted and linked earlier, Azov brigade is an armed neo Nazi organization, subsumed under that name into the Ukranian National Guard, currently being trained and equipped by western powers.

Re: demand for real names
Is that now a condition to post here ? Is Mr Dekker now a moderator ?

Re: " ... neither Sidd nor Terry appear to be able to produce any evidence of Nazi's fighting on the Ukraine side ..."

I will leave Mr Terry to speak for himself. I have posted evidence, if some see fit to ignore or challenge, that is their privilege. I shall consult my own judgement in that matter.

sidd
Title: Re: Ukraine, Nazis and western support
Post by: Rob Dekker on September 14, 2017, 06:41:19 AM
About Azov, Martin showed a link to ukraine@war above which clearly identifies a neo-Nazi among its members. There may be more, so I'm not going to argue that Azov is free of Nazis.

Also, US congress has bend-over backward to avoid training or supplying Azov, including a special amendment that explicitly mentions Azov. And specifically no US weapons ever made it to Azov, simply because the US has not supplied any weapons to any Ukraine army unit.

However, as I showed (links above) that ukraine@war also found several members of Russian unit 'Русич' that are clearly neo-Nazi. And 'Русич' is supplied plenty of weapons by Russia.

Yet I don't hear you talk about 'Русич' or ANY Russian weapons supplied to the 'separatists' at all, even though Russia supplied hundreds of tanks and artillery and everything else in this conflict.

Why the double standard, Sidd ?
Title: Re: Ukraine, Nazis and western support
Post by: sidd on September 15, 2017, 07:29:47 AM
1) Re: Azov: I posted links with information about nazi background much earlier in this thread.

2) Re: Amendment to 2016 act barring USA support for Azov: As I posted earlier,  this amendment did not make it to the final version signed by obama. That bill includes "lethal weapons of a defensive nature" and I posted links to this also.

3) Re: Russian support for nazi elements: Please note the title of this thread. I created this thread specifically to address western support for ukrainian nazis. Any member is free to create a thread that deals with Russian misdeeds, in Ukraine or elsewhere. If, however, some feel the need to discuss Russian actions on this thread, that is their privilege.  As is mine to reply or refrain from that discussion here.

Apparently some here read very little that i post (including the title of the thread!) or read with no comprehension.

On another note, I am quite curious as to why a demand was made for real names on this thread. I made no such condition when i began this thread, and i have noticed no such demand on any other thread. To make my position absolutely clear: As far as I am concerned, none need reveal their name on this thread. If Neven wishes to impose non anonymity, I will, regretfully, leave this forum.

sidd
Title: Re: Ukraine, Nazis and western support
Post by: Rob Dekker on September 16, 2017, 09:50:32 AM
Sidd, I already read your prior references, and you made your opinion about western support for Ukraine (and implicitly Azov) abundantly clear.

I'm sorry that you fail to see Russia's role in this conflict, since that is kind of the 800 pound gorilla in the room : Russia has been providing all the commanders (including top commander Strelkov) and Nazi para military groups and thousands of fighters of all sorts of life, and an endless stream of weapons including hundreds of tanks and heavy equipment creating a conflict that caused 6000 civilian deaths and near complete destruction of many parts of Donbass, and even a BUK that was used to shoot down a civilian airplane.

I understand you don't want to talk about that in this thread, but that is telling more about you than about Nazis involved on either side.

Finally, the only reason I asked Tunnelforce9 for a name is that it is a good test to see if the poster is a bot or an anonymous troll that just drops some links and disappears : If they are, they won't answer the question, and if they are not, then they will state a name, which makes the conversation a lot more pleasant. I hate to talk to anonymous internet entities.
Title: Re: Ukraine, Nazis and western support
Post by: Adam Ash on September 16, 2017, 03:50:49 PM
Sidd, ...' and even a BUK that was used to shoot down a civilian airplane.'


Jeez Rob!  Show us just one single picture of the contrail of an ascending missile on that day.  Among all the video that was shot that hazy afternoon there must be dozens you can find for us.  Dozens.  All you have to do is show us one image (a genuine image, of course) and an account that says they saw the contrail rising in the right direction at the right time.  We're an evidence based discussion group.  Show us the evidence. 

For reference, this is what you are looking for...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P5V0Y0glqz0 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P5V0Y0glqz0)
Title: Re: Ukraine, Nazis and western support
Post by: Martin Gisser on September 16, 2017, 04:08:58 PM
Nazis are everywhere where there are young stupid violent males.
Here's a recent example from Germany:
http://www.dw.com/en/germany-promises-army-reforms-after-neo-nazi-terror-plot/a-38789648 (http://www.dw.com/en/germany-promises-army-reforms-after-neo-nazi-terror-plot/a-38789648)

This wasn't some low rank freshling, but an officer known by his peers for being Nazi. He had a swastika carved in his rifle.
Title: Re: Ukraine, Nazis and western support
Post by: Martin Gisser on September 16, 2017, 04:45:24 PM
Sidd, ...' and even a BUK that was used to shoot down a civilian airplane.'


Jeez Rob!  Show us just one single picture of the contrail of an ascending missile on that day.  Among all the video that was shot that hazy afternoon there must be dozens you can find for us.  Dozens.  All you have to do is show us one image (a genuine image, of course) and an account that says they saw the contrail rising in the right direction at the right time.  We're an evidence based discussion group.  Show us the evidence. 

For reference, this is what you are looking for...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P5V0Y0glqz0 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P5V0Y0glqz0)

First attached image is a summary of the first Dutch examination, documented here: https://www.onderzoeksraad.nl/uploads/phase-docs/1006/debcd724fe7breport-mh17-crash.pdf (https://www.onderzoeksraad.nl/uploads/phase-docs/1006/debcd724fe7breport-mh17-crash.pdf)
Read §10.2 #6-8 page 255 for the evidence about the rocket.

Later they found a satellite image of the BUK who likely fired the rocket. 2nd attached image.

Images from http://www.news.com.au/travel/travel-updates/incidents/mh17-the-satellite-images-russia-doesnt-want-us-to-see/news-story/8c03f8e87971d36f70b5402ffbda16ff (http://www.news.com.au/travel/travel-updates/incidents/mh17-the-satellite-images-russia-doesnt-want-us-to-see/news-story/8c03f8e87971d36f70b5402ffbda16ff) May 17, 2016

------------
P.S.: Caveat for "Russophiles :)": "Putin tells complete nonsense in Stone interview about MH17" http://www.whathappenedtoflightmh17.com/another-low-in-russian-misinformation-president-putin-tells-complete-nonsense-in-stone-interview-about-mh17/ (http://www.whathappenedtoflightmh17.com/another-low-in-russian-misinformation-president-putin-tells-complete-nonsense-in-stone-interview-about-mh17/)
Title: Re: Ukraine, Nazis and western support
Post by: Martin Gisser on September 16, 2017, 05:02:35 PM
For reference, this is what you are looking for...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P5V0Y0glqz0 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P5V0Y0glqz0)

(https://017qndpynh-flywheel.netdna-ssl.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/01/171.jpg)
Comprehensive analysis here: https://www.bellingcat.com/resources/case-studies/2015/01/27/examining-the-mh17-launch-smoke-photographs/ (https://www.bellingcat.com/resources/case-studies/2015/01/27/examining-the-mh17-launch-smoke-photographs/)
Title: Re: Ukraine, Nazis and western support
Post by: Neven on September 16, 2017, 09:11:43 PM
Finally, the only reason I asked Tunnelforce9 for a name is that it is a good test to see if the poster is a bot or an anonymous troll that just drops some links and disappears

I coincidentally had some PM contact with Tunnelforce9 and I'm pretty sure he isn't a bot. I don't know about anonymous troll as he hasn't posted enough, but I would bet against it. I'm willing to vouch for sidd.
Title: Re: Ukraine, Nazis and western support
Post by: Rob Dekker on September 17, 2017, 05:03:26 AM
Thanks Neven, I'm glad that Tunnelforce9 is not a bot.
Title: Re: Ukraine, Nazis and western support
Post by: Rob Dekker on September 17, 2017, 07:47:29 AM
sidd said :
Quote
Congress reps had previously voted to stop any of this aid going to the nazis like the Azov brigade (congressman Conyers, D- Michigan), but so sad, that didnt make it to the final version that Obama signed.
....
The 2016 appropriations act is on the congress sites, but make sure you get the final version. The following link has some detail:

Sidd, the fact that you can't give a link to 'the final version' is telling.

Here is H.R.2685 - Department of Defense Appropriations Act, 2016 as passed by Congress :
https://www.congress.gov/bill/114th-congress/house-bill/2685/text (https://www.congress.gov/bill/114th-congress/house-bill/2685/text)

It clearly mentions :
Quote
Sec. 10009. None of the funds made available by this Act may be used to provide arms, training, or other assistance to the Azov Battalion.

Are you claiming that Obama signed a bill that is different ? And if so, where is it ?
Title: Re: Ukraine, Nazis and western support
Post by: Adam Ash on September 17, 2017, 10:42:14 AM
Comprehensive analysis here:
Thanks Martin.  Very interesting analysis and discussion.
Title: Re: Ukraine, Nazis and western support
Post by: sidd on September 17, 2017, 07:10:07 PM
From my link earlier to wsws.org

"While Conyers’ amendment was widely reported in the media when it passed the House of Representatives in June last year, it was never subject to a vote in the Senate. The 2016 Department of Defense Appropriations Act was incorporated into the 2016 Consolidated Appropriations Act, which became law on December 18."

For the law that was actually passed and signed into law by obama on dec 18 2018 please see:

https://www.congress.gov/114/plaws/publ113/PLAW-114publ113.pdf (https://www.congress.gov/114/plaws/publ113/PLAW-114publ113.pdf)

The section on the Azov batallion is omitted. The version passed by congress which included limitation excluding Azov never came up for vote in the Senate.

This is another instance illustrating that some here do not read what i post, or read with no comprehension.

sidd


Title: Re: Ukraine, Nazis and western support
Post by: Jim Pettit on September 17, 2017, 08:41:01 PM
For the law that was actually passed and signed into law by obama on dec 18 2018 please see...

Wait--Obama passed a law in the future? Damn that guy! Always time traveling and screwing things up for TrumPutin...
Title: Re: Ukraine, Nazis and western support
Post by: sidd on September 18, 2017, 01:19:59 AM
Sorry for the typo, and thanx for catching it. The 2016 Consolidated Appropriations Act became law on December 18, 2015.

sidd
Title: Re: Ukraine, Nazis and western support
Post by: Rob Dekker on September 18, 2017, 04:56:03 AM
Thanks for the link sidd. That helps.

So they yanked the Azov exclusion.
By itself that's not that surprising (micro-management and over-regulation and such) and either way the Leahy Law still applies.

So if at any point in time Azov starts mis-behaving, their funding disappears. That's a good incentive to comply by the international rules of war (Geneva convention etc).

I don't think Russian Parliament has anything like the Leahy law that would apply to the Russian battalions in this conflict. Or are you of the opinion that Russia has no involvement in this conflict ?
Title: Re: Ukraine, Nazis and western support
Post by: sidd on September 18, 2017, 07:31:35 AM
The  Leahy law is more honoured in the breach than in the observance. Afghanistan, Phillipines and Colombia come immediately to mind, not to mention Saudi in Yemen and Israel.

www.lawschool.cornell.edu/research/ILJ/upload/Miller-final.pdf (http://www.lawschool.cornell.edu/research/ILJ/upload/Miller-final.pdf)

So you may colour me unconvinced.

sidd
Title: Re: Ukraine, Nazis and western support
Post by: Rob Dekker on September 18, 2017, 07:50:54 AM
Disputable. But only just that : I don't disagree that it is hard to find the crossing line.

Regarding the Leahy Law, it would be nice if you could provide some evidence of human right violations and war crimes committed by Azov. If they are so "Nazi" than surely they committed many crimes.

And what about the other issues on the table : Does the Russian Parliament have anything like the Leahy law that would apply to the Russian battalions in this conflict ? Or are you of the opinion that Russia has no involvement in this conflict ?
Title: Re: Ukraine, Nazis and western support
Post by: sidd on September 18, 2017, 08:23:48 AM
Let me recapitulate:

1) I began this thread with a specific title  because that is what i wanted to discuss
2) If some want to discuss Russia in this thread that is their privilege
3) However they cannot compel me to join that discussion.

That said, I have created a thread called "Russia in Ukraine." Have at it.

sidd
Title: Re: Ukraine, Nazis and western support
Post by: Rob Dekker on September 18, 2017, 08:25:44 AM
That's one way to avoid answering a question, but OK. I'll post there.
https://forum.arctic-sea-ice.net/index.php/topic,2160.0.html

For this thread, the issue remains :

Regarding the Leahy Law, it would be nice if you could provide some evidence of human right violations and war crimes committed by Azov. If they are so "Nazi" than surely they committed many crimes.
Title: Re: Ukraine, Nazis and western support
Post by: sidd on September 18, 2017, 08:47:37 AM
Re: Azov human rights violations

www.ohchr.org/Documents/Countries/UA/Ukraine_13th_HRMMU_Report_3March2016.pdf (http://www.ohchr.org/Documents/Countries/UA/Ukraine_13th_HRMMU_Report_3March2016.pdf)
www.ohchr.org/Documents/Countries/UA/Ukraine_14th_HRMMU_Report.pdf (http://www.ohchr.org/Documents/Countries/UA/Ukraine_14th_HRMMU_Report.pdf)

looting. rape. torture. electrocution. waterboarding.

sidd
Title: Re: Ukraine, Nazis and western support
Post by: Rob Dekker on September 18, 2017, 09:03:59 AM
From your first reference :
Quote
Another soldier,
a member of the Azov regiment who was captured in Shyrokyne in February 2015 was
subjected to electric shock and his teeth were pulled out

That sure doesn't help your allegations.

We also see :
Quote
On 23 December, OHCHR met with four detainees held in Mariupol SIZO for their
alleged involvement in the 9 May events. They complained that they had been ill-treated by
SBU officials and members of the Azov regiment in Mariupol, detained incommunicado for
some time in September 2014, and that evidence extracted through torture was being used
in their trial.

Which 'trial' are we talking about here ? And exactly which 'evidence' was presented there ?

Title: Re: Ukraine, Nazis and western support
Post by: Rob Dekker on September 19, 2017, 08:19:24 AM
I analyzed the two OHCHR reports in detail, and from the 215+214=429 items listed in these reports, there are only 4 instances of allegations against Azov.

2 allegations of 'torture', where Azov members allegedly were a party.

1 allegation of looting (of Shyrokyne)

1 allegation by a mentally disturbed man that 8-10 Azov members raped him.

Also note that it does not take much work to get an entry into this OHCHR report : All you have to do is claim something.
For example, the torture claim I quoted before :
Quote
On 23 December, OHCHR met with four detainees held in Mariupol SIZO for their
alleged involvement in the 9 May events. They complained that they had been ill-treated by
SBU officials and members of the Azov regiment in Mariupol, detained incommunicado for
some time in September 2014, and that evidence extracted through torture was being used
in their trial.

Let's analyze that one a bit more in detail.

First of all, note that the four detainees "complained". That means the story came from them, and has not been verified. Next, note that they mention TWO groups that allegedly mis-treated them : "SBU officials and members of the Azov regiment". If you don't know who mis-treated you, then just say that. But blaming TWO groups without specifying exactly what each group did doesn't make your statement very credible. And note there are FOUR detainees, but only ONE story. Did they all four of them experience the same 'torture' by the SBU and Azov ?
Then note that they did not even specify what acts of 'torture' they were subjected to.

It seems these four just brought up an argument to help their case in trial, and OHCHR had a willing ear to listen to their story.

Also, if they were tortured, they can file a complaint with the Ukrainian Prosecutor General.
In 2015, the Office of the Prosecutor General launched 1,925 criminal investigations into allegations of torture and ill-treatment by police and penitentiary officials.

The remaining three incidences where Azov was implied are similarly questionable.
I'd be happy to elaborate, but there really is no evidence in either of these instances of alleged Azov misconduct.

Title: Re: Ukraine, Nazis and western support
Post by: TerryM on September 19, 2017, 06:54:41 PM
Hello, interesting discussion you have here.

Svoboda is definitly a nazi party, why else would they enlist someone like Joeri Mychaltsjysjyn as adviser, he runs the Joseph Goebbels Political Research Centre for pete's sake...

I advise you guys to watch the 2 folowing documentaries :

TV1 documentary on the involvement of the asov brigade and other far right militia groups.
https://www.dumpert.nl/embed/6722834/7053f603/ (https://www.dumpert.nl/embed/6722834/7053f603/)   
<French with English subtitles>

BBC piece on the Maidan revolution, where they talk to one of the " snipers of Maidan"
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mJhJ6hks0Jg (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mJhJ6hks0Jg)

Hope you have time to watch the videos, the first one is 55 min the second around 16 min.

Peace,
TF9


I just finished the TV1 documentary. While I found the Odessa footage significantly less bloody than what I'd viewed in near real time, the coverage was good, if muted.
The balance of their presentation was spot on with one leader chanting Heil Hitler, another feeling no remorse for the dead Russian speakers in Odessa, and a third praising Odessa as having sent out the message that, if you disagree with us everything is blood.
I'm separated from these animals by an ocean, and for this accident of geography I'm grateful.


I'm sure that when they've finished "purifying" the judges, all their actions will be legal.


Thanks so much for the link. For anyone who slept through the coup it's a great synopses from a French perspective.


I'll return when I've had time to peruse the 2nd video.


Hope to hear more from you
Terry
Title: Re: Ukraine, Nazis and western support
Post by: Rob Dekker on September 20, 2017, 09:45:53 AM
For anyone who slept through the coup it's a great synopses from a French perspective.

Terry, it baffles me why you continue to call the ousting of Yanukovich a coup ?
He was impeached and democratically removed from power :

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Viktor_Yanukovych
Quote
On 22 February 2014, 328 of 447 members of the Ukrainian parliament (MPs)—or about 73% of the MPs—voted to "remove Viktor Yanukovych from the post of president of Ukraine" on the grounds that he was unable to fulfill his duties[15] and to hold early presidential elections on 25 May

He was even denounced by his OWN party (Party of Regions) :

Quote
Yanukovych was disowned by the Party of Regions. In a statement issued by Oleksandr Yefremov, parliamentary faction leader, the party and its members "strongly condemn[ed] the criminal orders that led to human victims, an empty state treasury, huge debts, shame before the eyes of the Ukrainian people and the entire world."

I don't understand that reasonable, intelligent people call that a coup.
Title: Re: Ukraine, Nazis and western support
Post by: Jim Pettit on September 20, 2017, 05:39:15 PM
For anyone who slept through the coup it's a great synopses from a French perspective.

Terry, it baffles me why you continue to call the ousting of Yanukovich a coup ?
He was impeached and democratically removed from power :

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Viktor_Yanukovych
Quote
On 22 February 2014, 328 of 447 members of the Ukrainian parliament (MPs)—or about 73% of the MPs—voted to "remove Viktor Yanukovych from the post of president of Ukraine" on the grounds that he was unable to fulfill his duties[15] and to hold early presidential elections on 25 May

He was even denounced by his OWN party (Party of Regions) :

Quote
Yanukovych was disowned by the Party of Regions. In a statement issued by Oleksandr Yefremov, parliamentary faction leader, the party and its members "strongly condemn[ed] the criminal orders that led to human victims, an empty state treasury, huge debts, shame before the eyes of the Ukrainian people and the entire world."

I don't understand that reasonable, intelligent people call that a coup.

For what it's worth, it's not just Terry; a handful of close conservative friends of mine have been using the term "attempted coup" to describe the Mueller investigation, and have promised they'd respond to any Trump impeachment or resignation with the retaliatory force such an "illicit overthrow" would deserve. IOW: I suppose to some, a coup is in the eyes of the beholder. :\
Title: Re: Ukraine, Nazis and western support
Post by: sidd on September 20, 2017, 07:46:51 PM
Mr. Dekker pointed out that a post of mine in another thread was relevant here, so I repost :

"Is it possible to adopt the nationalist legacy as the national legacy and just forget about its dark side?"

is the question asked at the end of this thoughtful piece on historical legacy of Nazi support in Ukraine:

shron.chtyvo.org.ua/Khymka_Ivan-Pavlo/The_History_behind_the_Regional_Conflict_in_Ukraine_anhl.pdf

sidd
Title: Re: Ukraine, Nazis and western support
Post by: TerryM on September 21, 2017, 08:25:54 AM
For anyone who slept through the coup it's a great synopses from a French perspective.

Terry, it baffles me why you continue to call the ousting of Yanukovich a coup ?
He was impeached and democratically removed from power :

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Viktor_Yanukovych (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Viktor_Yanukovych)
Quote
On 22 February 2014, 328 of 447 members of the Ukrainian parliament (MPs)—or about 73% of the MPs—voted to "remove Viktor Yanukovych from the post of president of Ukraine" on the grounds that he was unable to fulfill his duties[15] and to hold early presidential elections on 25 May

He was even denounced by his OWN party (Party of Regions) :

Quote
Yanukovych was disowned by the Party of Regions. In a statement issued by Oleksandr Yefremov, parliamentary faction leader, the party and its members "strongly condemn[ed] the criminal orders that led to human victims, an empty state treasury, huge debts, shame before the eyes of the Ukrainian people and the entire world."

I don't understand that reasonable, intelligent people call that a coup.



For what it's worth, it's not just Terry; a handful of close conservative friends of mine have been using the term "attempted coup" to describe the Mueller investigation, and have promised they'd respond to any Trump impeachment or resignation with the retaliatory force such an "illicit overthrow" would deserve. IOW: I suppose to some, a coup is in the eyes of the beholder. :\


The bolded above:


It's not just Terry who claims that Yanukovych was not removed by impeachment, or by any constitutional process, it happens to be that the Wiki quoted above lays this out quite clearly when the full paragraph is read, rather than just cutting, sorting, then pasting it back together.


"On 22 February, the Ukrainian Parliament voted to remove him from his post, on the grounds that he was unable to fulfill his duties. Although the legislative removal by an impeachment procedure would have lacked the number of votes required by Ukraine's constitution,[16] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Viktor_Yanukovych#cite_note-huffingtonpost1-16) the resolution did not follow the impeachment procedure but instead established that Yanukovych "withdrew from his duties in an unconstitutional manner" and citing "circumstances of extreme urgency",[17] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Viktor_Yanukovych#cite_note-interfax1-17)[18] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Viktor_Yanukovych#cite_note-RadioFreeEurope-18) a situation for which there was no stipulation in the then-current Ukrainian constitution.[19] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Viktor_Yanukovych#cite_note-19) Parliament set 25 May as the date for the special election to select his replacement,[15] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Viktor_Yanukovych#cite_note-EnUkrRev-15)[20] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Viktor_Yanukovych#cite_note-SternBBC-20)[21] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Viktor_Yanukovych#cite_note-w1.c1.rada.gov.ua-21)[22] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Viktor_Yanukovych#cite_note-pravda.com.ua-22) and, two days later, issued a warrant for his arrest, accusing him of "mass killing of civilians."[23] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Viktor_Yanukovych#cite_note-ArrestWarrant-23)"
[/size]
[/size]Since the ouster was:
[/size]
[/size]Sudden & decisive.
[/size]Resulted in a change of government.
[/size]And was outside Ukrainian Constitutional Law

[/size]It seems to meet all three defining requirements of a coup d'etat.
[/size]
[/size]a sudden and decisive action in politics, especially one resulting in a change of government illegally or by force.[/i]
[/size]
[/size]Since violence apparently was involved as Yanukovych was fleeing Kiev, perhaps "Putsch" would a more properly descriptive term, but putsch entails such negative connotations that I'd prefer the less pejorative coup, or coup d'etat.
[/size]
[/size]Apologies for aberrant size commands, but an impeachment is an impeachment and a coup is a coup.  I simply quoted the full paragraph that you had quoted from to prove my point.
[/size]My definition of coup d'etat is from Dictionary.com
[/size]
[/size]Terry
Title: Re: Ukraine, Nazis and western support
Post by: Rob Dekker on September 21, 2017, 09:26:35 AM
Quote
Although the legislative removal by an impeachment procedure would have lacked the number of votes required by Ukraine's constitution,

Interesting. What IS the number of votes required by Ukraine's constitution for removal by impeachment procedure ?
Title: Re: Ukraine, Nazis and western support
Post by: TerryM on September 21, 2017, 10:19:27 AM
Quote
Although the legislative removal by an impeachment procedure would have lacked the number of votes required by Ukraine's constitution,

Interesting. What IS the number of votes required by Ukraine's constitution for removal by impeachment procedure ?


No idea, apparently at the time of the removal they " .... lacked the number of votes required by Ukraine's constitution." - That's according to the source that you quoted from.


addendum
Apparently it's Article 11 of the Ukraine Constitution that required a 75% vote of all of parliament to remove, (impeach) a president.


Terry
Title: Re: Ukraine, Nazis and western support
Post by: Rob Dekker on September 22, 2017, 06:38:03 AM
Thanks Terry.

I cannot find the required vote count for removal (75%) anywhere in the Ukraine Constitution copies I find on-line, so let's assume it is correct.

If so, then even though the vote count was 328-0, it was still 2% short of the 75% required. I am not an expert in law (and definitely not in Ukrainian law) so I'm not sure if they cut some (2%) corner here, or if they found a different rule that did not require 75% of the vote.

Note that in the US, impeachment and removal are a two-step process, where impeachment requires 50% of the vote in the House, and removal requires 2/3rd the vote in the Senate.
http://elitedaily.com/news/politics/number-members-congress-need-impeach-president/1958544/ (http://elitedaily.com/news/politics/number-members-congress-need-impeach-president/1958544/)
So under US law, Yanukovych would have been toast.

On second look, it looks like the Ukrainian Rada did not use the impeachment procedure, but instead some special circumstances. Note the text : "withdrew from his duties in an unconstitutional manner" and citing "circumstances of extreme urgency" which may not have needed 75% of the vote.

Either way, if 73% of parliament (and even your own party) denounces you in a 328 to 0 vote, your position becomes unsustainable. No matter if you call it a "coup" or not.

If you really want to know what a "coup" looks like, look at what happened with the Crimea Rada. where decisions for replacement of the Prime Minister and an illegal referendum were forced under gun-point from Russian military.

THAT is a "coup".

Title: Re: Ukraine, Nazis and western support
Post by: Rob Dekker on September 23, 2017, 05:41:02 AM
This reference sheds more light on what happened in the Ukrainian Rada that ousted Yanukovych :

http://www.ponarseurasia.org/article/was-yanukovych%E2%80%99s-removal-constitutional (http://www.ponarseurasia.org/article/was-yanukovych%E2%80%99s-removal-constitutional)

Quote
The Rada did not follow, or claim to follow, the impeachment route. They passed a resolution that established that Yanukovych had removed himself from fulfilling his constitutional duties. The resolution stated that due to the fact that Yanukovych had unconstitutionally stopped fulfilling his presidential duties, the Rada was calling early presidential elections as is their right under Article 85/7. It seems that nothing in the constitution prohibits parliament from passing such a resolution, which has the full legal force of a law, according to Article 91. The speaker of the Rada signed the resolution, again in accordance with the constitution (Article 88/3).

So he was not impeached, but he WAS removed from power in a democratic way.

Note also :
Quote
While we cannot know Yanukovych’s intentions for certain, the dumping of his documents in the lake at his fancy Mezhigorie residence and the traces of hectic packing suggest that the president was indeed fleeing rather than just going to a meeting in Kharkiv, as he later claimed. His midnight disappearing act left the country effectively without a president and a government.

If the country is left without a president and a government, parliament has every right to call for new presidential elections, as is their right under Article 85/7.

Yanukovych did this all to himself, despite his claims of a "Nazi coup".
Title: Re: Ukraine, Nazis and western support
Post by: Rob Dekker on September 30, 2017, 07:25:33 AM
The thing is that we KNOW from MH17, that Russia is willing to lie and cheat and misinform and blame Ukraine, and fabricate evidence in their news outlets.
The only thing that we "KNOW" from MH17's untimely downing is that Putin's Presidential jet was in the air at ~the same time, in ~the same location, with the Russian President aboard. That someone shot MH17 down using a ground to air missile, an air to air missile, or machine gun fire from rather close range.

I know you made this comment a while ago, but I still find it totally perplexing.

It is almost as if you have not seen any evidence since July 18, 2014 (the day after MH17 was shot down) and even then only watched RT for your news.

Why do you completely ignore the Dutch Safety Board report :
https://www.onderzoeksraad.nl/uploads/phase-docs/1006/debcd724fe7breport-mh17-crash.pdf (https://www.onderzoeksraad.nl/uploads/phase-docs/1006/debcd724fe7breport-mh17-crash.pdf)

which states clearly :
Quote
The weapon used was a 9N314M-model warhead carried on the 9M38-series of missiles,
 as installed on the Buk surface-to-air missile system

Ruling out any air-to-air missile or machine gun.

And then we have the likely launch location just south of Snizhne as confirmed by three different sources (first image attached). Which is consistent with the initial (July 21, 2014) findings of the launch location by ukraine@war :
http://ukraineatwar.blogspot.nl/2014/07/launch-location-detected-of-missile.html (http://ukraineatwar.blogspot.nl/2014/07/launch-location-detected-of-missile.html)
which is again consistent with the Pentagon's (July 22, 2014) assessment of the launch location :

(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/BtJecf6IcAAmtuQ.jpg)

And were you completely unaware of the amazing work done on MH17 by Bellingcat, with many dozens of posts, which show that the BUK that downed MH17 was brought in from the 53rd BUK brigade in Kursk (Russia) and trucked into Ukraine the day before, and then trucked out again the day after ?
Here is one summary report of their findings :
https://www.bellingcat.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/07/mh17-3rd-anniversary-report.pdf (https://www.bellingcat.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/07/mh17-3rd-anniversary-report.pdf)

And then we have the plenty of lies and fabricated evidence by the Russian Defense Ministry in the MH17 case :
https://www.bellingcat.com/news/uk-and-europe/2015/07/16/russias-colin-powell-moment-how-the-russian-governments-mh17-lies-were-exposed/ (https://www.bellingcat.com/news/uk-and-europe/2015/07/16/russias-colin-powell-moment-how-the-russian-governments-mh17-lies-were-exposed/)

Seriously, I find it astounding how you (Terry) can be so misinformed about MH17. Do you only watch RT for your news ?
Title: Re: Ukraine, Nazis and western support
Post by: TerryM on September 30, 2017, 10:22:28 AM
Actually I prefer 1st hand information from say the Canadian investigator who was on the scene within the first hour of the crash (who photographed and reported the machine gunned cockpit), and tend to ignore reports from Bellingcat, and other disinformation sources, but thanks for your concerns.
You may have noticed that I seldom copy and paste from propaganda outlets, from either side. At one time I'd learned to differentiate between Russian tank models & chose to ignore those sites who either didn't know which model was photographed, or more likely deliberately misinformed their readers.


When someone reports that the Arctic ice is recovering, I tend to ignore whatever follows.



Terry
Title: Re: Ukraine, Nazis and western support
Post by: Neven on September 30, 2017, 10:58:24 AM
That's a bad analogy, Terry. Arctic sea ice loss is based on science. Whereas the Ukraine stuff is greed masqueraded as geopolitics.

On the other hand, both events are caused by the same thing: Money trying to multiply itself endlessly.

Title: Re: Ukraine, Nazis and western support
Post by: TerryM on September 30, 2017, 11:26:20 AM
That's a bad analogy, Terry. Arctic sea ice loss is based on science. Whereas the Ukraine stuff is greed masqueraded as geopolitics.

On the other hand, both events are caused by the same thing: Money trying to multiply itself endlessly.


I was using the ice analogy to compare two instances of the media issuing untrue statements about factual events, and my  assumption that if you lie about one aspect of the situation, you're credibility is damaged re. further observations.


In the early days of the Ukrainian conflict there were a few tanks running about that were being reported as late model Russian tanks, and that they therefor could not be the old Soviet tanks that the separatists claimed to have obtained within the country. This was simply not true as anyone who took the trouble to read a few Wiki articles about tank design could easily verify.


I feel this is much like the fact that anyone can easily verify that the Arctic ice is not recovering, even though certain sites regularly report that it is.


While much of the Ukrainian situation is open to interpretation, some verifiable facts do stand out. The sites that misrepresented these facts have proven themselves biased in their reporting & I weigh their value with this in mind. (or simply ignore them.)


Terry
Title: Re: Ukraine, Nazis and western support
Post by: johnm33 on September 30, 2017, 01:27:12 PM
How/why did the USSR break up anyway? Certainly not the will of the people.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soviet_Union_referendum,_1991
Title: Re: Ukraine, Nazis and western support
Post by: Rob Dekker on October 01, 2017, 05:34:21 AM
Actually I prefer 1st hand information from say the Canadian investigator who was on the scene within the first hour of the crash (who photographed and reported the machine gunned cockpit), and tend to ignore reports from Bellingcat, and other disinformation sources, but thanks for your concerns.

I did not know that there were people that could so easily discard the Dutch Safety Board report; the result of the work of hundreds of forensic analysts who reconstructed MH17, and carefully eliminated all conspiracy theories in their report.

And I don't understand why anyone would so easily label the Open Source analysis by Bellingcat as "disinformation", especially since all the evidence they used is openly available to anyone to verify.

And I am blown away that someone would not even look at the proven lies by the Russian Defense Ministry, who actually used radar images of the falling pieces of MH17 to blame Ukraine while 298 people fell to their death.

I would understand if someone would be critical of any aspect or detail in these investigative reports, and argue where exactly they made a mistake.

But most of all I find it baffling that, instead of looking at all that evidence, someone can actually prefer the opinion of a single OSCE observer on a park bench in Russian-occupied Donetsk, who claims himself not to be an expert, that to his "untrained eyes" it "almost looks like machine gun fire".

Frankly, I find your position an insult to reason, and an insult to the 298 innocent victims that perished on 7/17/2014.
Title: Re: Ukraine, Nazis and western support
Post by: budmantis on October 01, 2017, 06:46:28 AM
I've been following the back and forth between Rob Dekker and Terry on this subject with great interest. I used to comment on this and other closely related topics, but I find I don't have a desire to invest the time it takes to get into the details, so I haven't commented much. Suffice it to say that I have a lot of respect for both Rob and Terry, but I am particularly impressed with the amount of information that Rob has been posting.

I know you guys are on separate sides of the issue, but I do appreciate the debate and the information you've both come up with.

Best Regards,

BudM
Title: Re: Ukraine, Nazis and western support
Post by: Neven on October 01, 2017, 10:24:36 AM
I've been following the back and forth between Rob Dekker and Terry on this subject with great interest. I used to comment on this and other closely related topics, but I find I don't have a desire to invest the time it takes to get into the details, so I haven't commented much. Suffice it to say that I have a lot of respect for both Rob and Terry, but I am particularly impressed with the amount of information that Rob has been posting.

I know you guys are on separate sides of the issue, but I do appreciate the debate and the information you've both come up with.

Best Regards,

BudM

Same here.
Title: Re: Ukraine, Nazis and western support
Post by: TerryM on October 01, 2017, 10:32:52 AM
I've been following the back and forth between Rob Dekker and Terry on this subject with great interest. I used to comment on this and other closely related topics, but I find I don't have a desire to invest the time it takes to get into the details, so I haven't commented much. Suffice it to say that I have a lot of respect for both Rob and Terry, but I am particularly impressed with the amount of information that Rob has been posting.

I know you guys are on separate sides of the issue, but I do appreciate the debate and the information you've both come up with.

Best Regards,

BudM


Bud
Always appreciate your comments, and I too have little, (to no) desire to invest the time it takes to get into the details.
I lived through all of this in close to real time some years ago.
We debated everything from the Cookie Monster of Maidana, through the Polite Green Men in Crimea, to the Living Dead holding the Airports as they bombarded the local apartments. All of it was gripping, fascinating and horrifying. Reliving the whole matter is simply sickening.


The truth about MH17 is that both the Russians and the US had massive surveillance on that particular area at that particular time. Either one can show the world what actually occurred, and for some reason, neither side has done so.
Is there some other operation that would be revealed? Is there some new weapon that neither side wants relieved? Is there some other reason that no one out of the loop could possibly guess?
I don't know. I do know that both sides are holding back information, and I can't even imagine why.


I'd been following observations from the region for 3 or 4 days prior to the crash, when local villagers first started reporting on the sudden increase in air traffic. No one had any idea why air traffic was being redirected, or what advantage it would provide to either side.
The Canadian observer that was one of one first to the crash site, (still smoldering IIRC), was so disturbed by his observations that he made regular pilgrimages back to the crash sight until the Ukrainians finally allowed all the international observers in.


When placing blame, ask which side benefited from the crash, and whether these benefits would have been obvious to the perpetrators at the time.


Terry

Title: Re: Ukraine, Nazis and western support
Post by: Martin Gisser on October 01, 2017, 01:56:53 PM
...
I lived through all of this in close to real time some years ago.
...
Reliving the whole matter is simply sickening.
Sometimes one should, esp. when lots of disinformation, false flags, etc. where in play...

Russian Fakebook i-war wasn't invented only last year! (One tactical strength in this black art is being real time with fake stuff...)

Quote
The truth about MH17 is that both the Russians and the US had massive surveillance on that particular area at that particular time. Either one can show the world what actually occurred, and for some reason, neither side has done so.
...
I've linked the evidence here in this thread. Ask the Dutch govt.
Plus,
Today there's also public massive surveillance out there - perhaps even more than embedded professional spies. Example: those twitter-whatsit photos posted on the net when the Russian BUK was fired.
Title: Re: Ukraine, Nazis and western support
Post by: Rob Dekker on October 02, 2017, 07:50:49 AM
The truth about MH17 is that both the Russians and the US had massive surveillance on that particular area at that particular time. Either one can show the world what actually occurred, and for some reason, neither side has done so.

What are you talking about ?

BOTH sides have posted their evidence.

The US has always sustained what Geoffrey Pyatt, US ambassador to Ukraine stated early on : “What happened to MH17 is not a mystery. We know that the aircraft was brought down by an SA11 missile fired from separatist territory." and the Pentagon posted the graph I posted before :

(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/BtJecf6IcAAmtuQ.jpg)

which confirms a launch site just south of Snizhne, consistent with open-source reconstructions by ukraine@war and the Bellingcat publication that Martin referred to previously.

We don't know which intel the Pentagon used to create that graph, but it is likely from IR tracking possibly by SBIRS :

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Space-Based_Infrared_System (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Space-Based_Infrared_System)

The Russians also presented their evidence.
Most notably on the 21st of July 2014, in a widely publicized press conference by the Russian Defense Ministry :
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4bNPInuSqfs (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4bNPInuSqfs)

Before this press conference, I thought that MH17 was just an accident, and that if we all work together we can make sure it will never ever happen again.
But after this press conference, I understood that MH17 was not an 'accident'. This was a test of how far propaganda can go, and it was going to be a huge war of information. And noting Terry's opinions in this thread, 3 years after the fact, I was right.

The problem is that the Russian Defense Ministry lied in that press conference. And not just a little lie, but they lied on all accounts. Including fabricating evidence, mis-dating satellite pictures and they even lied about the radar images of the pieces of MH17 falling down, while 298 people fell to their death.
There are detailed reports from Bellingcat about each of their lies, and here is an overview article :
https://www.bellingcat.com/news/uk-and-europe/2015/07/16/russias-colin-powell-moment-how-the-russian-governments-mh17-lies-were-exposed/ (https://www.bellingcat.com/news/uk-and-europe/2015/07/16/russias-colin-powell-moment-how-the-russian-governments-mh17-lies-were-exposed/)

As in any crime, the lies hurt more than the crime itself.

I've personally exposed one of these lies before Bellingcat did, and I'd be happy to discuss that, or any of the other lies by the Russian Defense Ministry.

I understand that when you are living in Russia, and all you see is these lies, and never see any rebuttal, nor any evidence, that that is what you believe.
But what is really astounding is that there are still people in the west (like Terry) who ignore the Russian lies, ignore all the evidence, and go back all the way to the beginning claiming we don't know anything.

That's incomprehensible for me, and it rips open wounds inside me that I thought were closed.
Title: Re: Ukraine, Nazis and western support
Post by: TerryM on October 02, 2017, 05:51:46 PM
Martin
I don't know whether to thank you for removing that photo, or not.
I was about to examine it as a probable example of the disinformation that has been brought to this subject.
On further thought thanks for removing what was probably some child's idea of a joke, that subsequently was picked up by the zealots and offered as a proof.


Rob
If you don't understand what I'm alluding to, then you don't really understand what was going on at that time at all.
I have assumed that you had done more than simply parrot Ukrainian talking points. Have I been wrong?
Rest assured that if you scratch even slightly beneath the surface you will discover the operation I so obliquely referenced.
Enough hints for one post.


What you both apparently want me to accept is a scenario similar to the outline below.

Putin, while at a G 20 conference in Australia, is notified that a Malaysian aircraft filled with aids researchers will be crossing through Ukrainian airspace at about the same time and place as his Presidential Jet will be crossing on a different trajectory.

He arranges to have an obsolete model of a BUC anti aircraft rocket launcher smuggled into Ukraine and driven about the countryside during daylight hours.

He has either the foresight to know that the Ukrainian air traffic control will reroute MH-17 over his killer BUC, or more likely has infiltrated the Ukrainian air traffic controllers at the highest level and forced them to steer MH-17 over the battlefield at low altitude.

He quickly infiltrates the villages near the crash scene and is assured that they will swear to not having noticed the BUC's launch, and will also attest to having seen two fighter planes trailing MH-17.

He has determined that shooting down this airliner makes strategic sense.

Being the ultimate god of 4 dimensional chess, Putin's motives will never be ascertainable by mere mortals, however:


Killing blameless AIDS researchers is unlikely to gain one the sympathy vote.
or
Bringing down an airline full of non-combatants has never been seen as noble undertaking.
or
Killing Dutchmen will sway undecided Eu votes, but not in your favor.




To most of us blowing up an airliner at this particular location, and at this particular time would seem an unlikely strategy, Putin however is a mastermind who's methods are not just unknown, but are in fact unknowable.


Everyone posting here is no doubt aware of the votes that were pending, the situation on the ground, and of course the War Games/Surveillance Systems Integrations that were ongoing.


I alas, even years later have been unable to see the upside for Russia, or the Separatists, in this matter, then again I don't see Putin as a chess player - but I wouldn't get within a block of him with a Go board. :)


Please complete this sentence:


Putin shot down M-17 in order to -


Terry
Title: Re: Ukraine, Nazis and western support
Post by: Rob Dekker on October 03, 2017, 06:39:17 AM
Martin
I don't know whether to thank you for removing that photo, or not.
I was about to examine it as a probable example of the disinformation that has been brought to this subject.

Martin did not remove any photo from this thread.
https://forum.arctic-sea-ice.net/index.php/topic,2150.msg129111.html#msg129111
See. It's still there.
Something specific you want to say about that photo, Terry ?
Title: Re: Ukraine, Nazis and western support
Post by: Rob Dekker on October 03, 2017, 06:46:10 AM
If you don't understand what I'm alluding to, then you don't really understand what was going on at that time at all.
...
Rest assured that if you scratch even slightly beneath the surface you will discover the operation I so obliquely referenced.
Enough hints for one post.

Rather that "alluding to" and giving "hints", why don't you just say what's your theory about MH17, Terry, start to finish ?

Quote
What you both apparently want me to accept is a scenario similar to the outline below.

Not really. More like this scenario, for which there is an astounding amount of evidence :

- Between June 23-25, 2014, Russia’s 53rd Anti-Aircraft Missile Brigade transported vehicles within Russia to positions close to the Russian border with Ukraine. This includes Buk 332, later photographed and filmed in Ukraine on July 17 and 18, 2014.
- On July 17, 2014, Buk 332 was in Ukraine, and arrived in Donetsk in the morning. From there, while loaded onto red low-loader, it traveled eastwards through separatist-held territory, and eventually reached the town of Snizhne in the early afternoon.
- After arriving in Snizhne, Buk 332 was unloaded and drove under its own power southward, out of town.
- Buk 332 arrived at a field south of Snizhne and fired a missile that resulted in the destruction of flight MH17.
- Buk 332 was next filmed traveling east through the separatist-controlled city of Luhansk on the morning of July 18, 2014 missing one missile. Intercepted communications indicate that the missile launcher was taken into Russia shortly after this video was filmed.
- On July 21, 2014, the Russian MoD presented a series of fabricated and misleading information about the flight path of MH17, radar data, the location of the July 18, 2014 Luhansk video, and the inclusion of misdated and heavily edited satellite imagery.
- Almaz-Antey presented data that was not reflected by witness statements on the ground, any open source information, or the technical assessments made by the DSB.
- No credible evidence has been presented that shows any operational Ukrainian Buk missile launcher was near a position in range of downing MH17 on July 17, 2014.
The only credible candidate for the missile launcher that downed MH17 is Russian Buk 332, of the 53rd Anti-Aircraft Missile Brigade.

https://www.bellingcat.com/news/uk-and-europe/2017/07/17/mh17-open-source-investigation-three-years-later/ (https://www.bellingcat.com/news/uk-and-europe/2017/07/17/mh17-open-source-investigation-three-years-later/)
Title: Re: Ukraine, Nazis and western support
Post by: TerryM on October 03, 2017, 08:14:24 AM
Putin shot down MH-17 in order to -

Terry
Title: Re: Ukraine, Nazis and western support
Post by: Rob Dekker on October 03, 2017, 08:23:10 AM
Putin shot down MH-17 in order to -

Terry

Your guess is at good as mine.

[edit] I think it was Jeff Wise (who mostly writes about MH370) who first noted the interesting fact that :
- First US sanctions against Russia were imposed March 6, 2014 :
https://www.treasury.gov/resource-center/sanctions/Programs/Documents/ukraine_eo.pdf (https://www.treasury.gov/resource-center/sanctions/Programs/Documents/ukraine_eo.pdf)
The day after, March 7, 2014 (3/7) MH370 disappeared.
- Second US sanctions against Russia were issued July 16, 2014 :
https://www.treasury.gov/press-center/press-releases/Pages/jl2572.aspx (https://www.treasury.gov/press-center/press-releases/Pages/jl2572.aspx)
And look, that includes Almaz-Antey.
The day after, July 17, 2014 (7/17) MH17 was shot down.

Probably a coincidence..
Title: Re: Ukraine, Nazis and western support
Post by: Rob Dekker on October 03, 2017, 08:58:10 AM
For everybody who is still reading this thread, here is some interesting information :

A BUK - TELAR like BUK 332 that shot down MH17, can by itself not distinguish between "friend-and-foo". It does not scan the secondary radar info that reveals the flight number etc.
So the guys in the BUK itself don't know what they are shooting at.
They must have been guided by info from outside. Either a "spotter" who tells them when to switch their radar on, or (more likely) a BUK command vehicle that DOES have Friend-or-Foo info.

Now remember that BUK 332 arrived on their launch position on a field just south of Snizhne at about 1pm (maybe 1:30) local time.

After that, it just sits there for 3 hours, doing nothing.
Meanwhile, dozens of airliners fly overhead as you can see in this very nice app from Correct!v :
https://correctiv.github.io/mh17/

Does anyone have any plausible explanation why that BUK would be sitting there for 3 hours, and then take out one, and only one plane : MH17, on the 17th of July ?
Either their spotters SUCK, or this plane was taken out deliberately.

[edit] If their spotters SUCK in that they can't distinguish a Ukrainian military jet from a civilian one, then WHY are Russian civilian jets still flying over Eastern Ukraine on July 24 (see the Correct!v app) ?
Title: Re: Ukraine, Nazis and western support
Post by: TerryM on October 03, 2017, 09:28:18 AM
Putin shot down MH-17 in order to -

Terry

Your guess is at good as mine.

[edit] I think it was Jeff Wise (who mostly writes about MH370) who first noted the interesting fact that :
- First US sanctions against Russia were imposed March 6, 2014 :
https://www.treasury.gov/resource-center/sanctions/Programs/Documents/ukraine_eo.pdf (https://www.treasury.gov/resource-center/sanctions/Programs/Documents/ukraine_eo.pdf)
The day after, March 7, 2014 (3/7) MH370 disappeared.
- Second US sanctions against Russia were issued July 16, 2014 :
https://www.treasury.gov/press-center/press-releases/Pages/jl2572.aspx (https://www.treasury.gov/press-center/press-releases/Pages/jl2572.aspx)
And look, that includes Almaz-Antey.
The day after, July 17, 2014 (7/17) MH17 was shot down.

Probably a coincidence..


My guess is that since there was no reason for Putin to shoot down MH-17, and in fact there are many obvious reasons why he would not benefit, he is extremely unlikely to have done so.
Reading Belingcat after all these years still makes me sick. Can't you understand that this is an advocacy site?


Why would you accuse the Americans of shooting down Malaysian Airlines flights the day after imposing sanctions on Russia? This makes no more sense than accusing Putin of shooting down MH-17. Malaysia is hardly a major player in this venue.


Putin didn't direct MH-17 over the conflict area.
Putin didn't order them to fly at a low altitude.
Putin was flying home from Australia after long meetings with the G-20.


The fact that sanctions were announced the day prior to MH-17's demise makes a shoot down by Russia far less likely, not far more likely, as Russia was hoping the Eu would not go along with the American proposal. Shooting down a neutral plane full of Europeans is hardly a way to gain European sympathy.


Terry


PS
Those damn foo fighters are at it again. Time to don your tin foil chapeau.





Title: Re: Ukraine, Nazis and western support
Post by: Rob Dekker on October 03, 2017, 09:41:24 AM
Reading Belingcat after all these years still makes me sick. Can't you understand that this is an advocacy site?
Terry, Bellingcat is an Open Source journalist site. All the evidence they present is publicly available and for anyone to verify.
Why don't you address the evidence they present instead of name calling them ?

Quote
Why would you accuse the Americans of shooting down Malaysian Airlines flights the day after imposing sanctions on Russia?
Huh ? What are you talking about ? Russian BUK 332 shot down MH17.

Quote
Putin didn't direct MH-17 over the conflict area.
MH-17 flew the same route every day. Over the conflict area. Just like hundreds of other planes.

Quote
Putin didn't order them to fly at a low altitude.
MH17 flew at FL 330, which is standard for their route.

Quote
Putin was flying home from Australia after long meetings with the G-20.
Good for him. But didn't he come from Brazil ? From a BRICS meeting ?
Title: Re: Ukraine, Nazis and western support
Post by: Rob Dekker on October 05, 2017, 05:15:34 AM
Getting back to the subject of this thread, we now have discussed a number of issues :

- The allegation that the US was planning to build a Naval Base on Crimea turned out to be support for the renovation of a school in Ukraine.

- The allegation that the "West" supports Nazi's in Ukraine turned out to be restricted to delivery of goods to the Ukraine military, where the most intimidating piece of equipment are night vision goggles. [sarcasm on] Maybe the "Nazi's" in Ukraine can scare away the Russians that invaded their country by wearing these goggles [sarcasm off].

- The battalion that is so heavily blamed for being "Nazi" (Azov) turns out to have NO confirmed violations of human rights. Only a few 'allegations' that have not been confirmed and at closer investigation don't stand the test of seriousness.

- The (Nazi) "coup" in Ukraine turned out to be the democratic removal of a corrupt president after a popular uprising of millions of Ukrainians.

- All available evidence suggests that MH17 was shot down by a Russian BUK, brought in from Russia the day before, and returned to Russia the day after. The only question is if MH17 was shot down deliberately, or if it was some sort of so far unexplained colossal failure in the chain of command.

Did I miss anything ?

[edit] Yes one more issue we discussed :
- The political parties in Ukraine that were labeled as "Nazi" by some commenters here appear to be Nationalist only, with platforms similar to other Nationalist parties in Europe, and either way have single digit voter counts in Ukraine and currently have NO representation in the Ukraine Rada.

All these accusations about Nazis in Ukraine and Western support all appear to be empty Russian propaganda with no basis in fact.
Title: Re: Ukraine, Nazis and western support
Post by: sidd on October 05, 2017, 08:22:07 AM
Good, lets get back to the subject of this thread, which does not include airliner shootdown.

Rob chooses to believe that aid is restricted to non lethal equipment, that Svoboda is powerless, and that Azov is not really Nazi. He has given his reasons.  I have my doubts.

I have posted my evidence for decades of western support for Nazis in Ukraine, both from the government of the USA and the UCCA. Rob doubts that evidence, as is his privilege.

Let us proceed. To begin with, It might be useful if allegations of  Russian intervention were confined to the "Russia in Ukraine" thread.

sidd
Title: Re: Ukraine, Nazis and western support
Post by: Rob Dekker on October 05, 2017, 09:33:42 AM
Oops. I forgot to mention that on the Russian side, neo-Nazis like FSB-agent Yuli Kharlamova double as Anna-presenter :

(https://forum.arctic-sea-ice.net/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2F2.bp.blogspot.com%2F-RlOzKcNH6_4%2FVXbCN6Dp0pI%2FAAAAAAAAb_0%2FCDeS65hdfTs%2Fs1600%2FIIlKAMqqDZA%252B2.jpg&hash=e24068910d961dca0d50418ba2f2e0d5)

and neo-Nazi Oksana Nikadimova doubles as a journalist on OSCE missions :

(https://forum.arctic-sea-ice.net/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2F4.bp.blogspot.com%2F-D1pk7VenYIo%2FVYCb9U9yTfI%2FAAAAAAAAcEY%2FOWjkl9L6_c8%2Fs640%2FCHoqaZyUkAABDz1.jpg&hash=89904bb641437b7217b7a4dcaa2b6ac0)
Title: Re: Ukraine, Nazis and western support
Post by: Rob Dekker on October 05, 2017, 09:57:07 AM
EU sanctions against (mostly) Russians operating in Eastern Ukraine :

Council Implementing Regulation (EU) 2015/240 of 9 February 2015 implementing Regulation (EU) No 269/2014 concerning restrictive measures in respect of actions undermining or threatening the territorial integrity, sovereignty and independence of Ukraine

http://eur-lex.europa.eu/legal-content/EN/TXT/?uri=CELEX%3A32015R0240 (http://eur-lex.europa.eu/legal-content/EN/TXT/?uri=CELEX%3A32015R0240)

That includes well known war criminals such as Motorola and Givi.
Title: Re: Ukraine, Nazis and western support
Post by: Neven on October 05, 2017, 10:33:26 AM
But why? What is it all about? Why are the 'West' and 'Russia' fighting over Ukraine?
Title: Re: Ukraine, Nazis and western support
Post by: gerontocrat on October 05, 2017, 01:53:06 PM
I guess I will have to write the story of what I was told in my travels in all those countries once part of the Warsaw Pact and ends in Jordan, and starts in October 1917. But it will take some time - too many threads.
Title: Re: Ukraine, Nazis and western support
Post by: Martin Gisser on October 05, 2017, 09:08:12 PM
But why? What is it all about? Why are the 'West' and 'Russia' fighting over Ukraine?
In short, methinks it is part of the global endgame of the fossil industrial complex: East Ukraine has lots of coal and steel industry.

Here is a Soviet propaganda poster from 1921 that says "Donbass is the heart of Russia"
(From https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Donbass (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Donbass) )
(https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/a/af/The_Donets_Basin_is_the_heart_of_Russia.jpg/440px-The_Donets_Basin_is_the_heart_of_Russia.jpg)

--------------------
Beyond that, it is just one detail in Putin's general strategy of destabilizing democracies by sowing confusion. Esp. when they are leaning West, towards EU.

And East Ukraine is an easy target, as it is culturally dominated by Russophones, incl. a "Russian supremacist" analogon of white supremacists:
"Ukraine’s Donbas Is Like America’s Deep South"
https://www.huffingtonpost.com/alexander-motyl/alexander-motyl_b_6414802.html (https://www.huffingtonpost.com/alexander-motyl/alexander-motyl_b_6414802.html)


On Putin psychology and the greater picture, here's a good article:
https://www.newstatesman.com/world/2016/02/how-vladimir-putin-lost-ukraine (https://www.newstatesman.com/world/2016/02/how-vladimir-putin-lost-ukraine)
Quote
When Putin suddenly broke out from Europe’s seven-decade peace order in February 2014, Western policymakers asked the diminished number of Kremlinologists in their midst why he was acting this way. Some, [...], pointed to fear as the Russian president’s root instinct. Putin has shown little interest in economics; he has not worried about looming inflation or capital flight, or Russia’s distorting reliance on oil and gas revenues. What he was afraid of, it seemed, was unchecked democratic contagion: as transmitted from Poles in the 1980s to restive East Germans and then Czechs in 1989, to Ukrainians in the mid-2000s, and even on to Muscovites in 2011/12 before Putin managed to stop their street protests.

[...]

Most agonising of all, in his first term as Russia’s president in the 21st century, Putin had to listen to American triumphalism about the series of pro-democracy “colour revolutions” in the streets of ex-communist Serbia in 2000, Georgia in 2003 and Ukraine in 2004. For him, as a career secret policeman, these revolutions represented no broad social yearning [...]. Rather, it was an inexplicable victory by American CIA manipulations – in what was Moscow’s own sphere of influence, by right – over the manipulations of Russia’s FSB, successor to the Soviet KGB.

[...]
(my emph.)

"Spy vs. spy" paranoia :)
(https://superradnow.files.wordpress.com/2012/09/spy.jpeg)
http://toonopedia.com/spyvsspy.htm (http://toonopedia.com/spyvsspy.htm)
Title: Re: Ukraine, Nazis and western support
Post by: Rob Dekker on October 06, 2017, 06:03:26 AM
But why? What is it all about? Why are the 'West' and 'Russia' fighting over Ukraine?

For starters, the 'West' is not fighting here. Fighting for peace (as in MINSK1/2) maybe but as I noted before, the most intimidating weapon the US has shipped are night vision goggles. I am not aware of any military support of any kind from any EU country. Ukraine is doing the fighting all by themselves.

So that leaves the question of why Russia is fighting. In my opinion, that is because Putin believes that Ukraine is part of Russia. Here is a very good article by CNN from March 4, 2014 (after Yanukovich was ousted but before the Crimea annexation and war in Donbass) which highlights what was really going on :

http://www.cnn.com/2014/03/03/opinion/stent-putin-ukraine-russia-endgame/index.html (http://www.cnn.com/2014/03/03/opinion/stent-putin-ukraine-russia-endgame/index.html)

Interesting quote :
Quote
At the 2008 NATO summit in Bucharest, Romania, Vladimir Putin told a surprised George W. Bush, "You have to understand, George, that Ukraine is not even a country. Part of its territory is in Eastern Europe and the greater part was given to us."
That is where it starts.

Russia's aggression, in the first annexation of ANY foreign nations territory by ANY other nation since WWII and by starting a war on another part of that nation's territory, cannot be denied.

Russia's actions in Ukraine are especially disgraceful since Russia signed the Budapest memorandum (1994) under which Ukraine gave up its nuclear weapons in return for a guarantee of sovereign integrity.

But note also that the EU may be partially to blame here. When Ukraine showed that it REALLY wanted to be part of Europe, and shed its tied with Russia after 70 years of Soviet suppression, the EU COULD have reached out a BIG hand, to truly HELP Ukraine with economic support and a path to European integration. Instead, the EU was reluctant and Putin offered a better deal to Yanukovich, which started the Euromaidan, and Russia's response to that.

It's late now, but the EU can still help Ukraine, economically and politically. To help them get rid of corruption and install EU law. And install a UN peace force (without Russians) all through Donbas that would remove the weapons and return the territory to Ukraine.

If it doesn't, then Ukraine will have to do it all by themselves, which will be REALLY hard while neighbor Russia is waging a hybrid war on them including not just militarily but also propaganda to make them look bad, and sucking every penny out of their economy where they can.

I hope its not loo late.

Ukraine wants to be part of Europe. Even Yanukovich ran on that platform.
And they are willing to fight for that.
Does Europe listen ?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GSPlvm9SnaY (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GSPlvm9SnaY)
Title: Re: Ukraine, Nazis and western support
Post by: Rob Dekker on October 07, 2017, 05:46:50 AM
Rob chooses to believe that aid is restricted to non lethal equipment, that Svoboda is powerless, and that Azov is not really Nazi. He has given his reasons.  I have my doubts.

It's not a matter of 'believe' or 'doubt'.
We went through the evidence and that is where it leads us ; that this was all Russian propaganda.
If you have evidence to support your position, please bring it on.
Title: Re: Ukraine, Nazis and western support
Post by: sidd on October 07, 2017, 06:54:13 AM
Is this better ?

Rob has, from, the posted evidence, come to the conclusion that any putative Western support for any putative Ukrainian Nazis is Russian propaganda.

I have no issue with that.  I hope he has no issue with the fact that I differ with his view.

sidd


Title: Re: Ukraine, Nazis and western support
Post by: Rob Dekker on October 07, 2017, 07:26:27 AM
Is this better ?

Rob has, from, the posted evidence, come to the conclusion that any putative Western support for any putative Ukrainian Nazis is Russian propaganda.

I have no issue with that.  I hope he has no issue with the fact that I differ with his view.

sidd

Yes, that is better. The remaining question is : If you are looking at the same evidence, then how can you come to a different conclusion ?
Is there some evidence we missed ?
Title: Re: Ukraine, Nazis and western support
Post by: johnm33 on October 07, 2017, 01:07:04 PM
"Why ?" Simplest amswer is that Russia does not want Nato any closer to Moscow. They know that some parts of the American elite are planning for a first strike against Russia, the missile sheild [against Iranian threat?] in Poland and Romania is, according to VT useless, it has only been tested against missiles where it has full prior knowledge of the launch point and target and has a little more than a 50% success rate, however the installations can be altered by changing the warhead and programming to offensive weapons. The Russians know this and have, they say, assets in place to cause one of the Canary islands drop into the Atlantic, apparently one of them has a long lateral fault that previously slipped then stopped, is that even possible ? I don't know, but if it did slip it would cause a massive tsunami on the east coast of the US, iirc 300m high moving at 700kph, so i suppose the Russians keep a close eye on whether the american elite is abandoning the east coast in a hurry. Plus they have clearly stated, more than once, that when the missiles are changed there will be no further warnings, whatever this action is of course it will be painted as an act of aggression.
Russia despite the depradations which followed the october revolution, 44,000,000 dead by the 50s, and despite being the most resource rich state in the world, still have an attatchment to the Donbass which was given to Ukraine by Lenin, against the will of the people, just as the Ukrainian Krushchev gave the Crimea to Ukraine, and would welcome them back in a heartbeat, except this would alter the demographics of the Ukraine and make it even more EU friendly. That means they won't sit back whilst the east is ethnically cleansed. Putin mentions it here https://www.newcoldwar.org/23107-2/ (https://www.newcoldwar.org/23107-2/)
On another level there are news sources with which to confirm any set of prejudices, here are some more contrarian [to the msm] links, http://thesaker.is/?s=mh17 (http://thesaker.is/?s=mh17) http://www.paulcraigroberts.org/2014/03/ (http://www.paulcraigroberts.org/2014/03/) https://www.veteranstoday.com/search/?cx=partner-pub-1138693856809059%3A6nrbu-wsp4y&q=ukraine&cof=FORID%3A11&locale-search=en-US&siteurl=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.veteranstoday.com%2F (https://www.veteranstoday.com/search/?cx=partner-pub-1138693856809059%3A6nrbu-wsp4y&q=ukraine&cof=FORID%3A11&locale-search=en-US&siteurl=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.veteranstoday.com%2F)
choose for yourself what you believe.
Title: Re: Ukraine, Nazis and western support
Post by: Rob Dekker on October 09, 2017, 05:59:21 AM
I want to make a few comments about news and what we believe, and the alternative of Open Source Journalism.

For any event that happen around the world, we rely on news sources to report to us what happened. Typically we have some news sources that we trust and some we don't trust. Even if we trust a news source, that source often repeats some statement by an authority. For example, any news bulletin typically has something like this "this authority investigated and says this, and authority investigated says that". Now if the statements from the two authorities differ, then it is left over to us to decide which one we believe. And that is very subjective.

I think that explains why Terry believes that we know very little about MH17 while in fact we know a LOT, why sidd believes that Azov is a Nazi battalion and the West sponsors Nazis in Ukraine while there is no evidence of that, and why johnm33 refers to conspiracy theorists and "choose for yourself what you believe".

To top it off, Trump is now telling us that we cannot trust the traditional news that most people rely on, and implicitly suggesting that sources he promotes (like Breitbart and Alex Jones) are more reliable.

This standard system of how we obtain news is a total mess. And for cases that are really important (like MH17) that is a BIG, BIG problem, since the voices of authority may biased or even lying.

It would be much better if we can do the research ourselves.
If you have all the evidence, then you don't need any authority to tell you what to think.

That is why Open Source Journalism (as sites like Bellingcat and ukraine@war initiated it) are so valuable. The use ONLY evidence that is available publicly to form an opinion. They even ask other people to challenge their findings or provide other publicly available evidence.

One example : Already back in early September 2014, Bellingcat found out that the BUK that shot down MH17 originated from the 53rd BUK brigade in Kursk, Russia :
https://www.bellingcat.com/news/uk-and-europe/2014/09/08/images-show-the-buk-that-downed-flight-mh17-inside-russia-controlled-by-russian-troops/ (https://www.bellingcat.com/news/uk-and-europe/2014/09/08/images-show-the-buk-that-downed-flight-mh17-inside-russia-controlled-by-russian-troops/)
This is more than a year before the JIT finally made a statement of authority confirming that the BUK that shot down MH17 came from Russia.

It also works the other way around : Bellingcat used the same Open Source Journalism to PROVE that the Russian Defense Ministry was lying in their July 21, 2014 press conference where they blamed Ukraine for the disaster.

Do you guys see for Open Source Journalism that it does not matter what Bellingcat's background is, or what their opinion is, or their affiliation, or their source funding, because ALL the evidence is available to ANYONE willing to verify their findings.

See that in this day and age of misinformation and rampant propaganda, that Open Source Journalism may be then ONLY way to find out the truth about anything.
Title: Re: Ukraine, Nazis and western support
Post by: Rob Dekker on October 09, 2017, 07:56:04 AM
One final note on Open Source Journalism :
Some sites are making claims based on publicly available evidence that turn out to be false.
So you always have to re-check their claims. The good thing is that since the evidence is publicly available, so you can ALWAYS check their claims.

Over the past 3 years of analyzing MH17 reports, I found that Bellingcat and ukraine@war just happen to be extremely good.

I've only found ONE claim for which Bellingcat did not provide publicly available evidence, and ukraine@war so far is flawless.

This contradicts with Russian media sites, which create a non-stop stream of verifiably incorrect information.
Title: Re: Ukraine, Nazis and western support
Post by: budmantis on October 09, 2017, 08:01:08 AM
Rob:

How much time do you spend checking out all this information? Maybe it's easier than I imagine, but from my POV, it seems the time investment is lengthy.

BudM
Title: Re: Ukraine, Nazis and western support
Post by: Rob Dekker on October 09, 2017, 08:04:19 AM
Rob:

How much time do you spend checking out all this information? Maybe it's easier than I imagine, but from my POV, it seems the time investment is lengthy.

BudM

MH17 and the war in Ukraine information and debunking Russian disinformation is close to my heart, and I spend a LOT of time on it. Maybe 2 hours per day on average over the past 3 years.

I've also geo-located some of the videos related to MH17 and have found the evidence that the Russian Defense Ministry lied before Bellingcat reported it.

Also, the good thing is that anyone can confront ANY Russian propaganda without fear. We all can, since they have NO evidence.
Title: Re: Ukraine, Nazis and western support
Post by: Rob Dekker on October 09, 2017, 08:58:53 AM
The Litmus test of if a web site is distributing Russian propaganda is this :

Check what they say about MH17. If they claim that the Ukrainians did it, then it's Russian propaganda. If they claim we don't know what happened, it's Russian propaganda.

Typically such sites are combined with other conspiracy theories or claims of Western aggression against Russia, setting up WWIII.

If it smells like Russian propaganda, it probably is.
Title: Re: Ukraine, Nazis and western support
Post by: Neven on October 09, 2017, 11:54:14 PM
How much time do you spend checking out all this information? Maybe it's easier than I imagine, but from my POV, it seems the time investment is lengthy.

You can say that again. In the past few days, as an exercise, I've tried to find out more about MH-17 and Ukraine in general, but I just don't have the time, stamina and attention span I used to have before starting my own blog and forum. Maybe that's also why I'm more interested in the big picture than in the details, as the big picture informs my world view, and my world view motivates me to blog and so on (hoping that Arctic sea ice loss will wake enough people up to demand systemic changes, which also show a way out of the nasty vicious cycle in Ukraine).

I might read up some more about Ukraine's past, though, and maybe call an old Ukrainian friend of mine in the Netherlands to have a chat about it. It's a good exercise.

And it's winter in the Arctic now, so a bit more time. ;-)

The Litmus test of if a web site is distributing Russian propaganda is this :

Check what they say about MH17. If they claim that the Ukrainians did it, then it's Russian propaganda. If they claim we don't know what happened, it's Russian propaganda.

Typically such sites are combined with other conspiracy theories or claims of Western aggression against Russia, setting up WWIII.

If it smells like Russian propaganda, it probably is.

I agree about the Litmus test (I won't be visiting The Saker much, I fear), but that last sentence brings us back to the Cold War. At some point everything is Russian propaganda and Russia is the big, bad wolf again. I don't see how that gets us anywhere. Been there, done that.

Maybe I think that way because I don't like polarisation. I don't like We the West VS Them the Russia. If we absolutely have to polarize, then I rather think in terms of We the powerless people who want good VS Them the bad people/system that wants to eat everything. 'We' live both in the west and east, and so do 'they'. They do not think in borders, so why are we? Why are we fighting ourselves, as pawns in their game? And aren't 'they' for a large part just doing what the system demands they do?

But even if we want to remain stuck in the classic polarized mind frame:

Sure, Putin is a dictator (albeit an extremely popular one, which makes sense given Russia's history) and the Russian oligarchy is a very crude one, not even hiding itself, like lots of Western oligarchs are. But how can we be so dismissive and call everything 'Russian propaganda', when western and especially American intelligence agencies have such an atrocious (as in atrocities) track record? And when the American mainstream media always pushes for war? Why doesn't it count that Russia spends more than ten times less on its military than the USA does, and thus the influence of the military-industrial complex on American politics/policy is that much greater? Why doesn't it count that wherever there is fossil fuels, America wants a front row seat, all the while meddling back stage? Should Russia just sit by idly while the US (via NATO) and the EU aggressively expand, so that their corporations control the pipelines and the granary? And if there's a people's coup in Ukraine that everyone in the west says is rightful, shouldn't the Russophones in Eastern Ukraine have the right to secede as well?

There are so many questions like these, which lead to: Shouldn't there be some more understanding of and empathy for Russia's position? Or should we just let tensions build up all the time, with neocons, oligarchs and the press as cheerleaders?

No. The thing that is causing these geopolitical games, is the same thing that is causing AGW, financial bubbles, the cancer/diabetes epidemic, soil erosion, deforestation, growing inequality, and so on. It's the money of the ultra-rich that has no other goal but to multiply itself exponentially and endlessly.

We - the powerless people who want good - must come together and say: Enough is enough.

I know, that's all theory. But it has to start with some theory. And besides, this is an eternal battle, because in the end the world around us is a reflection of what's inside us. And inside of us is a defect that has been with us ever since our species evolved.
Title: Re: Ukraine, Nazis and western support
Post by: Rob Dekker on October 10, 2017, 06:20:01 AM
Neven said
Quote
You can say that again. In the past few days, as an exercise, I've tried to find out more about MH-17 and Ukraine in general, but I just don't have the time, stamina and attention span I used to have before starting my own blog and forum. Maybe that's also why I'm more interested in the big picture than in the details, as the big picture informs my world view,

I agree. The good thing is that you don't need to have all the details right. Just a general sense of what Russian propaganda is doing is enough. This thread is a very good example, since it touches on a lot of myths that Russia is spreading. Just re-read this thread and note that when asked for evidence, that all of the pro-Russian talking points come up empty.

Quote
I agree about the Litmus test (I won't be visiting The Saker much, I fear), but that last sentence brings us back to the Cold War.

OK. I really don't want to be held responsible for causing a new Cold War, although I think it is already too late for that, but let me change that last sentence to something that is useful to any side of an argument :

If it smells like propaganda, then ask for evidence. If it comes up empty, it is propaganda.

Just like we have seen in this thread.

Quote
Should Russia just sit by idly while the US (via NATO) and the EU aggressively expand, so that their corporations control the pipelines and the granary?

I never understood that "NATO expansion" argument and the argument that "EU aggressively expand", when related to Russia's aggression in Ukraine in 2014.

If you discount Montenegro (which joined this year) the last 'expansion' of NATO was in 2009 when Albania and Croatia joined. And the last state that joined the EU was also Croatia. Are Albania and Croatia now to blame for Russia's annexation of Crimea and the invasion into Ukraine ?

If not, why bring up the argument ?

Quote
And if there's a people's coup in Ukraine that everyone in the west says is rightful, shouldn't the Russophones in Eastern Ukraine have the right to secede as well?

There are so many questions like these, which lead to: Shouldn't there be some more understanding of and empathy for Russia's position?
[/quote]

This conflict was never about Donbass to secede from Ukraine. It was always about Russia wanting to control Ukraine.

Donbass was peaceful and quite prosperous before armed Russian military guys showed up in Sloviansk and occupied the city.
 
Imagine that France decides to send armed military groups into Belgium and occupy regional offices and cities. When the Belgium military comes in to remove them, the French army moves in and directly fights the Belgium army. The French also shoot at Belgium schools and bus stops and French-speaking cities and French propaganda tells the world that that is proof that the Belgiums are killing their own people.

Would you still have "empathy" for the French position ?

When something bad is going on in the world, you can either do nothing, or do something about it.
Everybody has a point where decide where (as you put it) "enough is enough".

For me, that point came 21st of July, 2014, when Russia started lying at the highest levels about MH17. That's when I decided to have no more "empathy for Russia's position" and instead fight their propaganda. Using the method that I found best : FACT CHECKING.

Just like we do for debunking climate change deniers.
Title: Re: Ukraine, Nazis and western support
Post by: Rob Dekker on October 10, 2017, 07:57:29 AM
Maybe the war in Ukraine is best summarized in Boris Nemtsov's "Putin.War" document.
A document for which he paid with his life :

http://4freerussia.org/putin.war/Putin.War-Eng.pdf (http://4freerussia.org/putin.war/Putin.War-Eng.pdf)

Quote
Let us draw conclusions. "Hybrid war," in Putin's
implementation is:

- Hypocrisy. We are apparently fighting with
Ukraine, and everyone knows that. There are training
camps for fighters operating in Russian territory,
convoys with tanks move toward the Ukrainian
borders, the leaders of the separatists get approval for
their actions in the Kremlin. But supposedly we're not
fighting. Putin confidently shakes his head in reply to
direct questions, and Amb. Churkin at the UN
Security Council angrily denies all accusation of the
Kremlin.

- Lying. Were Russian paratroopers caught in
Ukrainian territory? Well, they just lost their way. Is it
proven that the separatists are using Russian
weaponry? They probably bought it at the army depot.
Ukrainians are fired on from Russian territory? But
they're bombing themselves. They are naming the last
names of Russian soldiers who were killed in eastern
Ukraine? Oh, that's it.

- Cowardice. Neither Putin nor his generals have
had the courage to admit the fact of military
aggression against Ukraine. Craven lying and
hypocrisy are served up as great political wisdom.
The cowardly and despicable war unleashed by
Putin will cost the country a lot. We will be paying for
this adventure with the lives of our soldiers, economic
crisis and political isolation.

We will pay with enmity from our long-time allies. No people are closer and more like kin to the
Russians than the Ukrainians. These are our brothers -- without any pathos -- and the war between Russians and Ukrainians in Donbass is impossible to characterize in any other way except as fratricide.

This war is the shame of our country. But the problem will not go away by itself. Putin must be
stopped. And this can only be done by the Russian people themselves.

Let us stop this war together.
Title: Re: Ukraine, Nazis and western support
Post by: Rob Dekker on October 10, 2017, 08:34:48 AM
Never forget MH17 :
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WaM0gReF8QE (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WaM0gReF8QE)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wD3uJ6mQMPY (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wD3uJ6mQMPY)
Title: Re: Ukraine, Nazis and western support
Post by: Neven on October 10, 2017, 06:18:52 PM

Just a general sense of what Russian propaganda is doing is enough.

And is Russian propaganda the only propaganda, or is there some other propaganda we need to have a general sense of?

Quote
OK. I really don't want to be held responsible for causing a new Cold War,

Don't worry, you can't cause it personally. But you can be part of a certain kind of thinking (not saying you are, or that you're doing it consciously) that inevitably leads to it. That's what I'm trying to get at when I talk about the We Vs Them. Who is We and who is Them? If Them is 'Russia', there is no other conclusion than Cold War, or worse.

Maybe that's the whole idea? Polarization usually serves a purpose.

Quote
I never understood that "NATO expansion" argument and the argument that "EU aggressively expand", when related to Russia's aggression in Ukraine in 2014.

If you discount Montenegro (which joined this year) the last 'expansion' of NATO was in 2009 when Albania and Croatia joined. And the last state that joined the EU was also Croatia. Are Albania and Croatia now to blame for Russia's annexation of Crimea and the invasion into Ukraine ?

If not, why bring up the argument ?

Like I said, we can discuss this from the perspective of the classic polarized mind frame, of geopolitics between nation-states (as if there aren't factions of very powerful people everywhere who only care about their bottom line, not about what's good for the country). I'll discuss from that perspective and take Russia's side, so to speak, trying to describe their position:

There is talk of Ukraine becoming an EU member, right? Croatia's eastern border is 19°E, and before getting to Russia, you first have to get through several countries. Croatia is close to the heart of Europe. And Albania just slightly to the south of that. Ukraine's eastern border is 37°E, 1500 km further to the right, and right next to Russia.

Maybe Russia thinks: What's this EU nonsense? Ukraine is not Europe. These are just schemes to get hold of Ukrainian pipelines and agriculture, and to open up to Western corporations so they can suck the economy dry, like they did all over Eastern Europe in the past 20-30 years. And before you know it, NATO will place missile systems and troops on our borders, like they did in the Baltic states. It will weaken our position, and so we will take geopolitical action to prevent this. We're not as powerful as them, but we'll find other ways.

That makes perfect sense, I believe, from the Russian perspective. It doesn't mean I agree, but it makes sense if we choose to follow that particular line of thinking (West VS Russia).

Quote
This conflict was never about Donbass to secede from Ukraine. It was always about Russia wanting to control Ukraine.

Yes, and at the same time the US and lapdog EU wanting to control Ukraine as well. That's what this is all about.

Quote
Imagine that France decides to send armed military groups into Belgium and occupy regional offices and cities. When the Belgium military comes in to remove them, the French army moves in and directly fights the Belgium army. The French also shoot at Belgium schools and bus stops and French-speaking cities and French propaganda tells the world that that is proof that the Belgiums are killing their own people.

Would you still have "empathy" for the French position ?

Your analogy lacks context. If the context is that far-away Norway, as the most powerful nation in the world (with an utterly corrupt system where enormous amounts of tax money is spent on the military, where large corporations steer policy and politics, while half the country is poor and millions don't have access to health care), is clearly trying to control Belgium so that it can even more efficiently dominate France and issue demands, then yes, I understand that France may feel forced to do what it does. I don't feel empathy for it, but I understand France's position. Especially if I view it from that classic polarized perspective of Us VS Them.

But that's not my view. My view is this: Within Belgium there are two groups of people. Those who get more power and make more money if Belgium sides with France. And those who want Belgium to join Norway for the same reasons.

At the same time, there are extremely rich people in France and Norway, or corporations who act on their behalf, who will get even richer if one of the two Belgian groups manage to convince the population (through propaganda mainly) to pick geopolitical sides. This will give one of the two groups (although they actually overlap quite a bit) access to all kinds of resources that can be exported, while the profits are siphoned off elsewhere, not to the Belgian people. In the meantime they also get rich from the conflict itself. They do this all around the world, and have been doing it for many decades now.

Quote
When something bad is going on in the world, you can either do nothing, or do something about it.
Everybody has a point where decide where (as you put it) "enough is enough".

For me, that point came 21st of July, 2014, when Russia started lying at the highest levels about MH17. That's when I decided to have no more "empathy for Russia's position" and instead fight their propaganda. Using the method that I found best : FACT CHECKING.

For me, that point came after 9/11 and the illegal invasions of Iraq and Afghanistan. And for a while I thought the US was to blame. But now, by taking the other perspective (of We powerless people who want good VS Them who only want power and money because that's what the system is stimulating), I realize it has nothing to do with the US or its people, but with money trying to multiply itself exponentially and endlessly. Iraq, Afghanistan, Libya, Egypt, Syria, Iran, Ukraine, Caucasus, within the West itself, it doesn't care.

It doesn't care about nation-states or their populations. It doesn't care about financial bubbles, global warming, resource depletion, cancer epidemics, environmental destruction. It doesn't even care about its owners.

Quote
Just like we do for debunking climate change deniers.

You make the same mistaken analogy as Terry. We debunk deniers when it comes to hard science. This becomes more difficult when it comes to climate change policy, because facts can be interpreted in different ways. It's even more difficult when talking about geopolitical conflicts, because there is so much propaganda. Propaganda doesn't consist only of lies, but also in how the truth is framed. In that sense, the 'cui bono' can be just as important as the 'facts'.

I'm not a fan of (Russia under) Putin, but I'm too old to believe in big bad wolf stories. There are many big bad wolves, and some sleep right under my bed. I don't want to choose between wolves, I want to choose the lamb.
Title: Re: Ukraine, Nazis and western support
Post by: johnm33 on October 11, 2017, 01:37:58 AM
Well said Neven.
I like my propaganda with a little bernays source.
Title: Re: Ukraine, Nazis and western support
Post by: sidd on October 11, 2017, 01:53:11 AM
"I like my propaganda with a little bernays source."

Bravo!

sidd
Title: Re: Ukraine, Nazis and western support
Post by: Rob Dekker on October 11, 2017, 04:22:20 AM
It's worse than I thought.

Neven, you touch on many subjects, but in general I feel that you are using what is called "whataboutism" : Whatabout US propaganda, Whatabout all these other conflicts, Whatabout all that money that just wants to multiply itself etc etc.

Back to the subject :
I understand that your main argument about Ukraine is that Russia's behavior in Ukraine is 'understandable' (including annexing a portion of Ukraine territory, starting war in another area and then denying it is involved, and downing a civilian airliner and lie about it) because the west (the US specifically) also wants to "control" Ukraine. You even gave the method of how they do that : "through propaganda mainly".

I'm a fact checker at heart, and I have an open mind, so can you please provide some examples of US propaganda directed at Ukraine ? How exactly does the US (or EU) "control" Ukraine ?

Also, if the US is really a 'wolf' in Ukraine, just like Russia is, then who are the 'lambs' in the Ukraine conflict ? And if the answer is "the Ukrainian people", then why don't you support the Ukrainian people instead of what very much sounds like apologizing for a dictator in the Kremlin ?
Title: Re: Ukraine, Nazis and western support
Post by: Neven on October 11, 2017, 10:37:41 AM
It's worse than I thought.

Neven, you touch on many subjects, but in general I feel that you are using what is called "whataboutism" : Whatabout US propaganda, Whatabout all these other conflicts, Whatabout all that money that just wants to multiply itself etc etc.
Yes, context, the bigger picture, not just the mainstream/establishment narrative that inevitably leads to Cold War, or worse. You know, where Russia is the anti-Christ and everything they say, is propaganda. Where we do not consider the influence of the military-industrial complex (on politics, policy and media), or the reason for this influence. Where we forget how the powerless are set up against each other, as pawns in a bigger, hidden game. Also known as 'history'.

Quote
Back to the subject :
I understand that your main argument that Russia's behavior in Ukraine is understandable (including annexing a portion of Ukraine territory, starting war in another area and then denying it is involved, and downing a civilian airliner and lie about it) because the west (the US specifically) also wants to "control" Ukraine. You even gave the method of how they do that : "through propaganda mainly".

I'm a fact checker at heart, and I have an open mind, so can you please provide some examples of US propaganda directed at Ukraine ? How exactly does the US (or EU) "control" Ukraine ?
If I would want to do this thoroughly, I would have to start my search in Ukraine itself. Now, my Ukrainian and Russian aren't all that great, and the question is also whether you could/would accept it as evidence, given that you probably don't speak those languages either and anything Russian can easily construed as propaganda by linking to mainstream media (epistemic closure).

BTW, I didn't even know Ukraine was as divided as this:

(https://forum.arctic-sea-ice.net/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fstatic5.businessinsider.com%2Fimage%2F53121ecc69bedd4c2ff07872-1181-825%2Fethnolingusitic_map_of_ukraine.png&hash=d25fb463de4ff1fbcd5b3426416624d0)

If I would have to do it using English and German sources, it would probably lead me to things like USAID, NEDC, Victoria Nuland (things I saw mentioned while trying to get a quick overall view). I could investigate the situation with regards to pipelines, shale gas (saw something about Joe Biden's coke-sniffing son), fossil fuels in general, and let's not forget agricultural lands (Bayer/Monsanto probably interested). I even saw something about diamonds, in some video my gut instinct said wasn't trustworthy.

Of course, as Budmantis has alluded to, it would take hundreds of hours.

I'm simply deducting. There are almost always two sides to a conflict, so why focus just on one side? Because a plane was shot down, filled with people we can identify with? Every day at least as many people are killed (in Iraq, Yemen, Afghanistan) that we can't identify with (because they're poor and can't fly to Bali for a three-week holiday), but I guess that's why there isn't any uproar and we just shrug it off.

There's a history of American meddling in almost any place where there is something to gain for corporations, toppling democracies and installing dictators, starting illegal wars, Abu Ghraib/Gitmo, torture, and so on. Why would it be different this time? Because I can't find evidence in mainstream media? Or is it the same old lesser-evil-schtick again?

And how about this:

(https://socioecohistory.files.wordpress.com/2014/04/russia_wants_war_look_how_closely_they_put_country_to_our_military_bases.jpg)

As for the EU, they say Ukraine can apply for membership (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ukraine%E2%80%93European_Union_relations#Ukrainian_EU_membership)! This is a clear provocation given the historical division in Ukraine, never mind the discussion whether Ukraine can be even considered part of Europe. Who are next, Georgia, Turkmenistan, Kirghizia, Afghanistan, Bangladesh? The message in itself could be considered propaganda, riling up the Ukrainians. And not for a minute do I believe it's for freedom and democracy. I don't know what NGOs are doing to push the EU-illusion in Ukraine, but I'm sure something can be found.

Quote
Also, if the US is really a 'wolf' in Ukraine, just like Russia is, then who are the 'lambs' in the Ukraine conflict ? And if the answer is "the Ukrainian people", then why don't you support the Ukrainian people instead of what very much sounds like apologizing for a dictator in the Kremlin ?
No, Rob, the answer is: The Ukrainian people, the Russian people, the people of Europe, the American people, powerless people around the world, who, given a choice, don't want these power games that are only played to make the concentrated money mountain even bigger. Nobody wants a new Cold War, or worse, except for a small group of people who get rich from it, a slightly larger group of maniacs who look forward to some killing, raping and looting, and a much larger group of people who get swayed by all the propaganda. But that much larger group, given a choice, at heart doesn't want any of that.

And given that this process is systematic, it's clear that the solution lies in changing the system so that it gets harder for concentrated money mountains to form in the first place.

But to get back to the subject: I'm not apologizing for anyone, or saying things are acceptable. I'm just reasoning from the classical geopolitical perspective (not my real perspective that I espoused again in the preceding paragraph). Why don't we turn it around, Rob? Why don't you play devil's advocate and explain what Russia/Putin should be doing?

BTW, I thought this was funny:
Title: Re: Ukraine, Nazis and western support
Post by: Rob Dekker on October 11, 2017, 11:03:15 AM

Quote
Back to the subject :
I understand that your main argument that Russia's behavior in Ukraine is understandable (including annexing a portion of Ukraine territory, starting war in another area and then denying it is involved, and downing a civilian airliner and lie about it) because the west (the US specifically) also wants to "control" Ukraine. You even gave the method of how they do that : "through propaganda mainly".

I'm a fact checker at heart, and I have an open mind, so can you please provide some examples of US propaganda directed at Ukraine ? How exactly does the US (or EU) "control" Ukraine ?
If I would want to do this thoroughly, I would have to start my search in Ukraine itself. Now, my Ukrainian and Russian aren't all that great, and the question is also whether you could/would accept it as evidence, given that you probably don't speak those languages either and anything Russian can easily construed as propaganda by linking to mainstream media (epistemic closure).

BTW, I didn't even know Ukraine was as divided as this:

(https://forum.arctic-sea-ice.net/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fstatic5.businessinsider.com%2Fimage%2F53121ecc69bedd4c2ff07872-1181-825%2Fethnolingusitic_map_of_ukraine.png&hash=d25fb463de4ff1fbcd5b3426416624d0)

If I would have to do it using English and German sources, it would probably lead me to things like USAID, NEDC, Victoria Nuland (things I saw mentioned while trying to get a quick overall view). I could investigate the situation with regards to pipelines, shale gas (saw something about Joe Biden's coke-sniffing son), fossil fuels in general, and let's not forget agricultural lands (Bayer/Monsanto probably interested). I even saw something about diamonds, in some video my gut instinct said wasn't trustworthy.

Of course, as Budmantis has alluded to, it would take hundreds of hours.

I'm simply deducting. There are almost always two sides to a conflict, so why focus just on one side? Because a plane was shot down, filled with people we can identify with? Every day at least as many people are killed (in Iraq, Yemen, Afghanistan) that we can't identify with (because they're poor and can't fly to Bali for a three-week holiday), but I guess that's why there isn't any uproar and we just shrug it off.

There's a history of American meddling in almost any place where there is something to gain for corporations, toppling democracies and installing dictators, starting illegal wars, Abu Ghraib/Gitmo, torture, and so on. Why would it be different this time? Because I can't find evidence in mainstream media? Or is it the same old lesser-evil-schtick again?


These are a lot of words to say that you don't have ANY specific example of western propaganda, or how the US "controls" Ukraine.

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And how about this:

(https://socioecohistory.files.wordpress.com/2014/04/russia_wants_war_look_how_closely_they_put_country_to_our_military_bases.jpg)


You know that "socioecohistory.files.wordpress.com" is a pro-Russian blog site right ?
The ridiculous quote "look how close they put their country to our military bases" should have been a dead give-away.

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As for the EU, they say Ukraine can apply for membership (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ukraine%E2%80%93European_Union_relations#Ukrainian_EU_membership)! This is a clear provocation given the historical division in Ukraine, never mind the discussion whether Ukraine can be even considered part of Europe. Who are next, Georgia, Turkmenistan, Kirghizia, Afghanistan, Bangladesh? The message in itself could be considered propaganda, riling up the Ukrainians. And not for a minute do I believe it's for freedom and democracy. I don't know what NGOs are doing to push the EU-illusion in Ukraine, but I'm sure something can be found.


Here, you are even questioning if Ukraine can be considered part of Europe.
That's borderline racist, Neven.

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Also, if the US is really a 'wolf' in Ukraine, just like Russia is, then who are the 'lambs' in the Ukraine conflict ? And if the answer is "the Ukrainian people", then why don't you support the Ukrainian people instead of what very much sounds like apologizing for a dictator in the Kremlin ?
No, Rob, the answer is: The Ukrainian people, the Russian people, the people of Europe, the American people, powerless people around the world, who, given a choice, don't want these power games that are only played to make the concentrated money mountain even bigger. Nobody wants a new Cold War, or worse, except for a small group of people who get rich from it, a slightly larger group of maniacs who look forward to some killing, raping and looting, and a much larger group of people who get swayed by all the propaganda. But that much larger group, given a choice, at heart doesn't want any of that.

And given that this process is systematic, it's clear that the solution lies in changing the system so that it gets harder for concentrated money mountains to form in the first place.

But to get back to the subject: I'm not apologizing for anyone, or saying things are acceptable. I'm just reasoning from the classical geopolitical perspective (not my real perspective that I espoused again in the preceding paragraph).

I understand that you feel that you are just "reasoning from the classical geopolitical perspective", but that is not much of comfort to the Ukrainian people who have their sons killed by Russians.

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Why don't we turn it around, Rob? Why don't you play devil's advocate and explain what Russia/Putin should be doing?

I think Putin should get the fuck out of Ukraine, apologize to the Ukrainian people for killing 10,000 of their citizens, return Donbass and Crimea to Ukraine and cooperate with the JIT to bring the perpetrators of the downing of MH17 to justice.

That would be a good start.
Title: Re: Ukraine, Nazis and western support
Post by: Neven on October 11, 2017, 01:02:41 PM
That's not playing devil's advocate, Rob.  ::)

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These are a lot of words to say that you don't have ANY specific example of western propaganda, or how the US "controls" Ukraine.
No, that's a lot of words to say what I said: To do it properly would take hundreds of hours and learning two new languages (I can understand them a bit, having worked as a translator/subtitler for RTL Nederland during the Orange Revolution), not knowing if you would/could accept the evidence. I simply don't have that time, as my activism lies elsewhere (convincing people Arctic sea ice loss is a potential catastrophe).

I can also use Google and then shoot off stuff like this (http://readersupportednews.org/opinion2/277-75/22758-meet-the-americans-who-put-together-the-coup-in-kiev), not having the time to thoroughly investigate it myself, and thus putting the burden on you to counter-argument (as if your time isn't precious):

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Arriving in the Ukrainian capital on August 3, Pyatt almost immediately authorized a grant for an online television outlet called Hromadske.TV, which would prove essential to building the Euromaidan street demonstrations against Yanukovych. The grant was only $43,737, with an additional $4,796 by November 13. Just enough to buy the modest equipment the project needed.

Many of Hromadske's journalists had worked in the past with American benefactors. Editor-in-chief Roman Skrypin was a frequent contributor to Washington's Radio Free Europe / Radio Liberty and the US-funded Ukrayinska Pravda. In 2004, he had helped create Channel 5 television, which played a major role in the Orange Revolution that the US and its European allies masterminded in 2004.

Skrypin had already gotten $10,560 from George Soros's International Renaissance Foundation (IRF), which came as a recommendation to Pyatt. Sometime between December and the following April, IRF would give Hromadske another $19,183.

Hromadske's biggest funding in that period came from the Embassy of the Netherlands, which gave a generous $95,168. As a departing US envoy to the Hague said in a secret cable that Wikileaks later made public, "Dutch pragmatism and our similar world-views make the Netherlands fertile ground for initiatives others in Europe might be reluctant, at least initially, to embrace."

For Pyatt, the payoff came on November 21, when President Yanukovych pulled back from an Association Agreement with the European Union. Within hours Hromadske.TV went online and one of its journalists set the spark that brought Yanukovych down.

"Enter a lonely, courageous Ukrainian rebel, a leading investigative journalist," writes Snyder. "A dark-skinned journalist who gets racially profiled by the regime. And a Muslim. And an Afghan. This is Mustafa Nayem, the man who started the revolution. Using social media, he called students and other young people to rally on the main square of Kiev in support of a European choice for Ukraine."

All credit to Nayem for his undeniable courage. But bad, bad history. Snyder fails to mention that Pyatt, Soros, and the Dutch had put Web TV at the uprising's disposal. Without their joint funding of Hromadske and its streaming video from the Euromaidan, the revolution might never have been televised and Yanukovych might have crushed the entire effort before it gained traction.

For better or for worse, popular uprisings have changed history long before radio, television, or the Internet. The new technologies only speed up the game. Pyatt and his team understood that and masterfully turned soft power and the exercise of free speech, press, and assembly into a televised revolution on demand, complete with an instant overdub in English. Soros then funded a Ukrainian Crisis Media Center "to inform the international community about events in Ukraine," and I'm still trying to track down who paid for Euromaidan PR, the website of the Official Public Relations Secretariat for the Headquarters of the National Resistance.
Is this any use? I'm sure there's more than this, and some part of it will inevitably be undeniable, which makes sense, because history has shown that the US is always meddling when it comes to this kind of geopolitical conflicts that involve resources, weapon sales and privatisation.

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You know that "socioecohistory.files.wordpress.com" is a pro-Russian blog site right ?
The ridiculous quote "look how close they put their country to our military bases" should have been a dead give-away.
I think the ridiculous quote was an attempt at sarcasm, the point being that the US/NATO has surrounded Russia with military bases. It would be simplistic to say that this doesn't have an influence on Putin/Russia and their behaviour. Imagine Putin doing the same in Canada and Mexico.

That was the gist of my argument, and so I didn't even look where that image came from. Do I have to modify my comment and replace that image with the same image (showing US/NATO military bases near Russia), but from a source you deem reliable? Or is your point that the US/NATO doesn't have military bases near Russia's borders?

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I understand that you feel that you are just "reasoning from the classical geopolitical perspective", but that is not much of comfort to the Ukrainian people who have their sons killed by Russians.
Absolutely! One big reason for their sons being killed (as well as the sons of Russian mothers)is the classical geopolitical perspective, as it inevitably leads to a new Cold War, or worse. If enough people on both sides hold this perspective, things can only get worse. That's why I'm espousing another perspective, where the We is 'all powerless people in the world who don't want war' and the They is 'a small group of people and their servants who want the mountain of concentrated money to become even bigger'.

I'm not sure we'll get much further than this, Rob. You're more interested in the details and morals. I'm more interested in repetitive historical patterns and how to break through them (probably naive). And my wife is saying I need to get back to business (working, gardening and preparing for next year's melting season).  ;)
Title: Re: Ukraine, Nazis and western support
Post by: Rob Dekker on October 12, 2017, 08:13:05 AM
That's not playing devil's advocate, Rob.  ::)

That is because I don't want to be an advocate for evil, Neven.

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These are a lot of words to say that you don't have ANY specific example of western propaganda, or how the US "controls" Ukraine.
No, that's a lot of words to say what I said: To do it properly would take hundreds of hours and learning two new languages (I can understand them a bit, having worked as a translator/subtitler for RTL Nederland during the Orange Revolution), not knowing if you would/could accept the evidence. I simply don't have that time, as my activism lies elsewhere (convincing people Arctic sea ice loss is a potential catastrophe).


You claimed that I needed to see the atrocities committed by Russia in Ukraine in 'context'. That the west is also trying to control Ukraine. And that they do so "through propaganda mainly".

Now you are telling me that to obtain evidence of that western propaganda, you need to learn two languages etc etc.

So you did not know if the west actually imposed control on Ukraine by means of propaganda.
You just assumed it. That is a problem by itself, but it is worse because you used it as an argument to see the conflict in 'context' of western propaganda.

Let's explore this 'context' a bit more :

On one side we have Russia, who annexed a part of the territory of Ukraine in the first land grab of any nation since WWII. Russia also started a war in another part of Ukraine where about 10,000 Ukrainians lost their lives, and to top it off Russia shot down an international airliner and lied about it. They violated at least 6 international treaties in the process.

On the other hand, in terms of western control we have Hromadske.TV.
A single Web TV channel, set up by a small grant from the US and Holland, which happens to cover the Euromaidan.

Seriously, Neven ?

Why did you completely loose perspective in this conflict ?

For a better perspective, Wikipedia has a good overview of what happened during Euromaidan :
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Timeline_of_the_Euromaidan
and please tell me where you think the west asserted 'control' or even 'propaganda' during that uprising.

Also note this section from your quote :
Quote
Without their joint funding of Hromadske and its streaming video from the Euromaidan, the revolution might never have been televised and Yanukovych might have crushed the entire effort before it gained traction.

Apart from the fact that it is absurd to think that one Web TV channel could have made a difference, they make it sound as if "Yanukovych might have crushed the entire effort before it gained traction" would have been a good thing.

Do YOU think it would have been a good thing if Yanukovych would have crushed the entire effort before it gained traction, Neven ?

I find your position on the conflict especially surprising, since you always seem to stand up for the people (the lambs).

Now, here we have the ONLY popular uprising in Europe in recent history where the people (powerless people who don't want war) actually managed to democratically remove a highly corrupt oppressive President from office, by rising up by the millions across hundreds of cities in Ukraine, for many months.

Only to get invaded by a neighbor in a bloody war packed with hypocritical propaganda from Russia.

And in exactly THAT popular uprising you seem to just parrot that Russian propaganda...
I don't get it, Neven.

[edit] I vowed to fight Russian propaganda back in 2014. I never could have imagined that I'd have to fight it with the founder of the ASIF.
Title: Re: Ukraine, Nazis and western support
Post by: Neven on October 12, 2017, 11:11:29 AM
That's not playing devil's advocate, Rob.  ::)
That is because I don't want to be an advocate for evil, Neven.

Wikipedia (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Devil%27s_advocate): In common parlance, the term devil's advocate describes someone who, given a certain point of view, takes a position he or she does not necessarily agree with (or simply an alternative position from the accepted norm), for the sake of debate or to explore the thought further.

I understand your unwillingness to even consider the Russian perspective, but the danger is that you become blind to your biases and prejudices, and thus vulnerable to propaganda that you may perceive as facts or reliable news.

That's not a personal reproach. It's something everyone suffers from. We are all biased, all of us.

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You claimed that I needed to see the atrocities committed by Russia in Ukraine in 'context'. That the west is also trying to control Ukraine. And that they do so "through propaganda mainly".

Yes, and that the West (controlled by people doing the bidding of the concentrated money mountain) is doing things that pushes Russia (controlled by people doing the bidding of another concentrated money mountain) to do other things. Like the NATO bases, the sanctions, or the demonisation of Putin/Russia (maybe it isn't demonisation, but it certainly is perceived that way by many Russians).

A lot of what Russia does, makes sense. That doesn't make it right. But it takes two to tango.

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Now you are telling me that to obtain evidence of that western propaganda, you need to learn two languages etc etc.

Of course I do! Do you think I can otherwise find it on CNN or MSNBC, or in the Washington Post or New York Times? Would they publish such things if they existed? Of course they wouldn't. People would lose their jobs if they did. Absence of evidence, etc...

And so I would need to get to the source, which I can only do by learning Ukrainian and Russian. Because a lot of stuff gets lost (or added) in translation.

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So you did not know if the west actually imposed control on Ukraine by means of propaganda.
You just assumed it. That is a problem by itself, but it is worse because you used it as an argument to see the conflict in 'context' of western propaganda.

Yes, I assumed it, given the track record of US intelligence agencies. We can wait 40-50 years to see if that assumption was correct yet again.

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Let's explore this 'context' a bit more :

On one side we have Russia, who annexed a part of the territory of Ukraine in the first land grab of any nation since WWII. Russia also started a war in another part of Ukraine where about 10,000 Ukrainians lost their lives, and to top it off Russia shot down an international airliner and lied about it. They violated at least 6 international treaties in the process.

On the other hand, in terms of western control we have Hromadske.TV.
A single Web TV channel, set up by a small grant from the US and Holland, which happens to cover the Euromaidan.

Seriously, Neven ?

Why did you completely loose perspective in this conflict ?

Again, I'm going to discuss this from the simple classic geopolitical perspective, where nation-states only do things that benefit the nation-state, all fueled by ideology, good guys, bad guys, etc. Which isn't my perspective at all. I've told you what my perspective is.

First of all, what Russia did, was a reaction to Euromaidan (as well as boost Putin's popularity during hard economic times for Russia due to oil price and sanctions, with western propaganda trying to weaken his position with the people). I'm not condoning it. I'm just saying it makes sense from the Russian perspective.

Second, we'll talk treaties as soon as the US honours them.

Third, the Hromadske.tv thing was just a quick example. Again, for better evidence I would have to scour Ukrainian and Russian media, and I just don't have time for that.

Fourth, the Hromadske.tv thing is evidence of what I said: A small group within Ukraine is bound to benefit financially and politically if Ukraine falls into the EU/US sphere (think of all the privatisation, pipe lines, agricultural land), and so they get help from the EU and US to achieve this from within. One could argue this is a 'land grab', a tried and tested recipe. I'm sure someone like Poroshenko already has enough oligarchic corruption in him to assist in whatever the multinationals may require, getting a commission for all that is siphoned off.

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Apart from the fact that it is absurd to think that one Web TV channel could have made a difference, they make it sound as if "Yanukovych might have crushed the entire effort before it gained traction" would have been a good thing.

Do YOU think it would have been a good thing if Yanukovych would have crushed the entire effort before it gained traction, Neven ?

That's a dilemma, Rob. If the thing had been crushed, Russia most likely wouldn't have annexed Crimea, killed 10 thousand Ukrainians and shot down MH-17. Don't you agree?

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I find your position on the conflict especially surprising, since you always seem to stand up for the people (the lambs).

For ALL the people of all the nations, Rob. Not just one people pitted against the other. I've learned that from the war in former Yugoslavia. Not falling into that trap again.

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Now, here we have the ONLY popular uprising in Europe in recent history where the people (powerless people who don't want war) actually managed to democratically remove a highly corrupt oppressive President from office, by rising up by the millions across hundreds of cities in Ukraine, for many months.

Ukraine is historically divided to a very high degree. Millions people may want one thing (spurred on by the small group who see an opportunity), while millions of others may want another thing (spurred on by another small group). Remember, although Yanukovych was indeed highly corrupt (who isn't in post-communist countries?), he was actually democratically elected. If Euromaidan was so big, why didn't they just make sure their guy was elected in the next elections, one year later (assuming the impeachment was democratic)?

Because the country is highly divided:

(https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/2/26/%D0%94%D1%80%D1%83%D0%B3%D0%B8%D0%B9_%D1%82%D1%83%D1%80_2010_%D0%BF%D0%BE_%D0%BE%D0%BA%D1%80%D1%83%D0%B3%D0%B0%D1%85-en.png/1280px-%D0%94%D1%80%D1%83%D0%B3%D0%B8%D0%B9_%D1%82%D1%83%D1%80_2010_%D0%BF%D0%BE_%D0%BE%D0%BA%D1%80%D1%83%D0%B3%D0%B0%D1%85-en.png)

The last thing a highly divided country needs, is corrupt populists on both sides of the divide, backed by external parties.

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And in exactly THAT popular uprising you seem to just parrot that Russian propaganda...
I don't get it, Neven.

I've told you what my real perspective is (not the one where I posit arguments that things aren't black and white, even on the classical geopolitical level, where we discard the hidden oligarchic money game), and I think it's pretty neutral, because I denounce everyone who tries to use the division in Ukraine to gain power and/or money. And they're on both sides, as in almost every conflict. I've witnessed the war in Yugoslavia up close. I know how it works. I want another mindset where I can shrug off the propaganda, because I know that the core of what I believe, is sound.

Not everything that goes against the mainstream/establishment narrative (which currently is a clear regression to Cold War mentalities) is automatically Russian propaganda. It just doesn't work that way.

You are giving me two choices, and I'm choosing neither. So, we're not going to get anywhere, just walk in circles, and get more agitated every round.

The only thing we may discuss is where we think this should be heading, how the conflict can be solved.

I think the division needs to be formalized one way or other, so that the part of Ukraine that wants to work together with EU/US, can do that, and the part that wants to stay close to Russia, can do so too. Just formalize it, so it can stop festering and be abused.

Maybe some sort of confederation consisting of a West and East Ukraine (like Flanders and Wallonia). Get free trade going again, with as little corruption as possible (politicians can't use the polarisation/division anymore for power and money). But no foreign troops within the confederation's borders. No Russia, no EU, no NATO/US. At the same time relieve sanctions against Russia, build up diplomatic relations, and continue nuclear disarmament asap.

Oh yes, and while we're at it: set a limit on how much an oligarch can own.  ;)
Title: Re: Ukraine, Nazis and western support
Post by: Neven on October 13, 2017, 01:09:39 AM
Damn it, I'm hooked now.  ;)

Been watching quite a few YouTube videos tonight from 2014 and 2015, interviews with people like Noam Chomsky and Stephen Cohen who explain everything in much, much more context. I can post if anyone is interested. None of it is actual, of course. It's just that I was too busy building, working and blogging in those days to really pay any mind to this conflict, except for reading headlines.
Title: Re: Ukraine, Nazis and western support
Post by: sidd on October 13, 2017, 03:20:57 AM
Cohen is one of the few sane voices in leftpondistan, and Chomsky of course needs no praise from me. But may we continue this discussion in the "Russia in Ukraine" thread, please ?

sidd
Title: Re: Ukraine, Nazis and western support
Post by: TerryM on October 13, 2017, 03:30:35 AM
Damn it, I'm hooked now.  ;)

Been watching quite a few YouTube videos tonight from 2014 and 2015, interviews with people like Noam Chomsky and Stephen Cohen who explain everything in much, much more context. I can post if anyone is interested. None of it is actual, of course. It's just that I was too busy building, working and blogging in those days to really pay any mind to this conflict, except for reading headlines.


'T'is intriguing, I had to take two years away from the Arctic ice to wrap my head around it. What worked for me re. the language problem was to find a site with both sides well represented. When a translation was made, the other side would object and offer their translation. Eventually consensus would be reached and that translation could be trusted.


Following the money and asking who gains an advantage from a certain action can be very effective, especially now that propaganda sources have had time to get all their ducks in a row.


Best of luck
Terry
Title: Re: Ukraine, Nazis and western support
Post by: Rob Dekker on October 13, 2017, 05:26:14 AM
But may we continue this discussion in the "Russia in Ukraine" thread, please ?

I was just about to make the same suggestion.
So for once I agree with sidd  :)
Maybe you can drop a link there, Neven ?
Title: Re: Ukraine, Nazis and western support
Post by: Rob Dekker on October 13, 2017, 08:28:52 AM
Let's summarize what we have found so far in this thread :

- The allegation that the US was planning to build a Naval Base on Crimea turned out to be support for the renovation of a school in Ukraine.

- The allegation that the "West" supports Nazi's in Ukraine turned out to be restricted to delivery of goods to the Ukraine military, where the most intimidating piece of equipment are night vision goggles. [sarcasm on] Maybe the "Nazi's" in Ukraine can scare away the Russians that invaded their country by wearing these goggles [sarcasm off].

- The battalion that is so heavily blamed for being "Nazi" (Azov) turns out to have NO confirmed violations of human rights. Only a few 'allegations' that have not been confirmed and at closer investigation don't stand the test of seriousness.

- The (Nazi) "coup" in Ukraine turned out to be the democratic removal of a corrupt president after a popular uprising of millions of Ukrainians.

- All available evidence suggests that MH17 was shot down by a Russian BUK, brought in from Russia the day before, and returned to Russia the day after. The only question is if MH17 was shot down deliberately, or if it was some sort of so far unexplained colossal failure in the chain of command.

- The political parties in Ukraine that were labeled as "Nazi" by some commenters here appear to be Nationalist only, with platforms similar to other Nationalist parties in Europe, and either way have single digit voter counts in Ukraine and currently have NO representation in the Ukraine Rada.

- The allegation that "western propaganda" was a major factor in Ukraine turns out to be restricted to one small internet video channel (Hromadske.tv) which just happened to cover the Euromaidan.

- All the accusations about Nazis in Ukraine and Western support all appear to be empty Russian propaganda with no basis in fact.

Let me also note that NO evidence of support to Ukraine of ANY kind was reported by any of the posters here. It was only me who noted the shipments of night vision goggles to Ukraine (OK, and Hromadske.tv reported by Neven).

The main reason sidd thought that there was Western support for Ukrainian "Nazis" is the Azov battalion.
We already discovered before that Azov does not have any human rights violations on their record,
only some allegations, which at closer examination appear to be just void of evidence.

Now I found some more evidence that Azov is not as "Nazi" as Russian propaganda wants us to believe : For starters, more than half of the battalion’s fighters are Russian-speaking eastern Ukrainians :
http://america.aljazeera.com/articles/2014/7/24/ukraine-azov-battalion.html (http://america.aljazeera.com/articles/2014/7/24/ukraine-azov-battalion.html)

Also, if Azov is "Nazi" then why is a jew funding them ?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ihor_Kolomoyskyi (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ihor_Kolomoyskyi)

With the rampant Russian propaganda going around especially when it pertains to Ukraine, can we please consider that this whole idea of Azov battalion being "Nazi" is just one big pile of horse-shit of Russian propaganda, just like all the other claims of alleged western interference in Ukraine ?
Title: Re: Ukraine, Nazis and western support
Post by: sidd on October 13, 2017, 09:35:56 AM
This is getting quite repetitive.

I have laid out my evidence and Rob has laid out his. This thread is not that long, people can read easily.

If i find more evidence i will post and i hope others do also, bearing in mind the title of this thread.

As far as Russian support for anybody, or airliner shootdown, please take it to the "Russia in Ukraine" thread.

sidd
Title: Re: Ukraine, Nazis and western support
Post by: Neven on October 13, 2017, 11:52:28 AM
I forgot there's that other thread, sorry.
Title: Re: Ukraine, Nazis and western support
Post by: TerryM on October 13, 2017, 07:06:57 PM
I've never found a Gish Gallop to be conducive to rational debate.
Terry
Title: Re: Ukraine, Nazis and western support
Post by: magnamentis on October 13, 2017, 07:47:12 PM
each day i stumble upon this thread due to the new posts since last read and i want o ask the owner of this thread whether he still thinks that the "nazi" term is correct. i mean "nazi" means something very specific that does not apply to just righ-wing and/or faschist movements. not every nationalist, member of a right-wing party or movement and not every faschist is a nazi, in fact and IMO none of them is a nazi if he is/was not a member of the "nationalsozialistische partei deutschlands"

either i'm right or you tell me and i learn something (where i'm wrong here)

the reason why i post this is:

a) i see and think about it each day again

b) there is way too much fuss about those beaten and beheaded morons which at times makes the impression that there some people try to glorify them. Nazis are a thing of the past and even thought the way of thinking is not, the current movements should be given another name to avoid
the impression that there could be a revival which exactly serves their intentions in some way.

as i said, i'm open to other points o view and ready to learn and stand corrected should i see this wrong in a way that can objectively be proven.

EDIT: what i'm heading at is whether the title could be changed to something without "buzzwords"
Title: Re: Ukraine, Nazis and western support
Post by: sidd on October 13, 2017, 07:58:49 PM
I began this thread but i do not own it. By Ukrainian Nazis i mean those Ukrainian collaborators like Bandera and his ideological descendants.

sidd
Title: Re: Ukraine, Nazis and western support
Post by: magnamentis on October 13, 2017, 08:06:39 PM
I began this thread but i do not own it. By Ukrainian Nazis i mean those Ukrainian collaborators like Bandera and his ideological descendants.

sidd

sure i understand the meaning and i clearly share your view, i mean "that specific word" which come across almost each day because there are so many german channels, even some of which i really consider "serious" who repeat "nazi" BS almost on a daily basis, bordering to glorification of the guys even though saying otherwise.

while i would never get to them to discuss this i thought i ask the question here because i'm totally certain about the meaning and intention to be right (good)

however there is not that much importance to it to start a greater OT discussion, i just asked and have no intention to go any further with this.

thanks for your reply sidd and i did never expect anything else than what you said (meant)
let's call it a bit of an allergy towards that "N" word used so often on all kinds of opportunities
not claiming that i'm right and others are not.
Title: Re: Ukraine, Nazis and western support
Post by: Rob Dekker on October 14, 2017, 05:51:56 AM
I began this thread but i do not own it. By Ukrainian Nazis i mean those Ukrainian collaborators like Bandera and his ideological descendants.

sidd

Sidd, I've read up on some of the historical reports regarding Bandera before and during WWII, and I find it hard to find any solid evidence that he was a "Nazi". If you know of any, please refer to it and please be specific.

At least post something more specific than these these general references to pro-Russian opinion pieces you posted before.

As a leader of the OUN, he was definitively a "Nationalist" since he declared the independence of Ukraine in 1941 :
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Declaration_of_Ukrainian_State_Act

The Germans wanted to crush this independence movement, and the Gestapo arrested him on 15 September 1941 and he became a prisoner in the Sachsenhausen concentration camp. Thousands of OUN members were subsequently rounded up and executed by the Germans. Both of Bandera's brothers were eventually murdered at Auschwitz.
https://books.google.com/books?id=kPK3DAAAQBAJ&pg=PA92&lpg=PA92&dq=Both+of+Bandera%27s+brothers+were+eventually+murdered+at+Auschwitz.&source=bl&ots=FU7Y4oh8Zv&sig=Psnl8HvE6zSbvWCmFSQE-jfaXrg&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjonI7Oq-_WAhVG04MKHaiVANgQ6AEIKTAA#v=onepage&q=Both%20of%20Bandera's%20brothers%20were%20eventually%20murdered%20at%20Auschwitz.&f=false

In general, I find it hard to find out the details of exactly what happened back during WWII, since much of it seems so much left over to historians opinions about who was really Nazi and who not or even what exactly happened and who exactly was in charge. So I'm with magnamentis on this one ; don't use the "N" word so easily.

In absence of clear evidence of atrocities committed by Bandera, I don't think it is fair to project anything on his "ideological descendants". Also this happened three generations ago, and at this point, the only thing left over from Bandera ideology (if it was ever any different) is the ideology of a free and independent Ukraine.
Title: Re: Ukraine, Nazis and western support
Post by: Rob Dekker on October 14, 2017, 07:24:33 AM
I also found this account of the Bandera movement :

Quote
“The activities of the western Ukrainian Bandera group have an increasingly detrimental effect on the remaining Ukrainian regions...They present an acute danger to German interests, both at the present time and in the future.  Appropriate defense measures have been taken.” (Report № 4 of the Einsatzgruppen of the Secret Police and the SD, September 1–15, 1941)

On November 25, 1941 the Einsatzkommando C/5 issues an order to its units stating: “It has been established with certainty that the Bandera movement is preparing an uprising in the Reichskommissariat, whose ultimate objective is to create an independent Ukraine.  All functionaries of the Bandera movement are to be immediately arrested and after thorough interrogation, secretly executed as marauders.” (International Military Tribunal, Proceedings, Nuremberg, 1949, vol.39, Document 014-USSR, №7, pp. 269-270)

“Today, it has been clearly established that the Bandera movement is providing   forged passports not only for its own members, but also for Jews.” (Report on Events in the USSR № 187, Berlin, March 30, 1942)

http://www.lucorg.com/block.php/block_id/28 (http://www.lucorg.com/block.php/block_id/28)

Which is consistent with earlier accounts that the Germans considered the Bandera movement a threat to German rule, and also suggests that the Bandera movement is trying to help Jews.

Doesn't sound like a Nazi movement to me.
Title: Re: Ukraine, Nazis and western support
Post by: sidd on October 14, 2017, 09:53:51 AM
The wikipedia article on Bandera is quite well referenced. I recommend reading it with attention to OUN.

extract from wikipedia. note that this resolution was adopted before bandera fell out with the Nazis foraminnit.

--
Hostility to both the Soviet central government and the Jewish minority were highlighted at the OUN-B's Conference in Kraków in May 1941, at which the leadership of Bandera's OUN faction adopted the program "Struggle and action of OUN during the war" (Ukrainian: "Боротьба й діяльність ОУН під час війни") which outlined the plans for activities at the onset of the Nazi invasion of the Soviet Union and the western territories of the Ukrainian SSR.[36] The program declared that:

    The Jews in the USSR constitute the most faithful support of the ruling Bolshevik regime, and the vanguard of Muscovite imperialism in Ukraine. The Muscovite-Bolshevik government exploits the anti-Jewish sentiments of the Ukrainian masses to divert their attention from the true cause of their misfortune and to channel them in a time of frustration into pogroms on Jews. The OUN combats the Jews as the prop of the Muscovite-Bolshevik regime and simultaneously it renders the masses conscious of the fact that the principal foe is Moscow.[44]

Section G of the program – "Directives for organizing the life of the state during the first days" (Ukrainian: "Вказівки на перші дні організації державного життя") outlined activity of the Bandera followers during mid-1941.[37] In a subsection on "Minority Policy", the leaders of OUN-B ordered:

    "Moskali [i.e. ethnic Russians], Poles, and Jews that are hostile to us are to be destroyed in struggle, particularly those opposing the regime, by means of: deporting them to their own lands, eradicating their intelligentsia, which is not to be admitted to any governmental positions, and overall preventing any creation of this intelligentsia (e.g. access to education etc)... Jews are to be isolated, removed from governmental positions in order to prevent sabotage... Those who are deemed necessary may only work under strict supervision and removed from their positions for slightest misconduct... Jewish assimilation is not possible." [45][46][47]

...
By 1942, Nazi officials had concluded that Ukrainian nationalists were largely indifferent to Jews and were willing to both help them or kill them, if either better served the nationalist cause. A report, dated 30 March 1942, sent to the Gestapo in Berlin, claimed that "the Bandera movement provided forged passports not only for its own members, but also for Jews."[60] The false papers were most likely supplied to Jewish doctors or skilled workers who could be useful for the movement.[61]

--

Then in 1944 the Nazis let him out again...

Anyhoo, i am not particularly interested in Bandera's needs to kill all Jews or all Poles or merely some of them. He is close enuf to Nazi for me without that.  And so are those who march under his potrait.

The movement to rehabilitate Bandera strikes me as eerily close to a similar movement in India (a movement whose political arm is currently in power) to rehabilitate a guy called Nathuram Godse. Look him up, but do bear in mind that to discuss Godse we probably need yet another thread.

I guess some of us remember more, being older.

sidd


Title: Re: Ukraine, Nazis and western support
Post by: Rob Dekker on October 14, 2017, 10:48:37 AM
Sidd, you are again not specific.
Give me just ONE clear example of Bandera movement being Nazi.

I dug into one excerpt from your quoted text with a publicly accessible reference :
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stepan_Bandera (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stepan_Bandera)
Quote
By 1942, Nazi officials had concluded that Ukrainian nationalists were largely indifferent to Jews and were willing to both help them or kill them, if either better served the nationalist cause.
So which is it. Help them or kill them ?
Either way, this conclusion is NOT supported by the reference they give in Wikipedia ([60] in the wiki page) .

But this next line is :

Quote
A report, dated 30 March 1942, sent to the Gestapo in Berlin, claimed that "the Bandera movement provided forged passports not only for its own members, but also for Jews.

That was similar to the text I quoted above (referenced as "(Report on Events in the USSR № 187, Berlin, March 30, 1942)" which suggests that the Bandera movement was helping Jews.

All of this in Wikipedia is from this reference ([60] in the wiki page) :

"The KGB disinformation campaign against Ukrainians and Jews"

www.iwp.edu/news_publications/detail/divide-and-conquer-the-kgb-disinformation-campaign-against-ukrainians-and-jews (http://www.iwp.edu/news_publications/detail/divide-and-conquer-the-kgb-disinformation-campaign-against-ukrainians-and-jews)

Please be specific in your claims that Bandera was "Nazi" because so far you are just hand waving and the evidence that we DO have is suggesting the opposite.
Title: Re: Ukraine, Nazis and western support
Post by: sidd on October 14, 2017, 08:21:18 PM
I posted a specific passages from the OUN party manifesto:

"Moskali [i.e. ethnic Russians], Poles, and Jews that are hostile to us are to be destroyed in struggle, particularly those opposing the regime, by means of: deporting them to their own lands, eradicating their intelligentsia, which is not to be admitted to any governmental positions, and overall preventing any creation of this intelligentsia (e.g. access to education etc)... Jews are to be isolated, removed from governmental positions in order to prevent sabotage... Those who are deemed necessary may only work under strict supervision and removed from their positions for slightest misconduct... Jewish assimilation is not possible."

Nazi enuf for me, but not for some, apparently.

sidd
Title: Re: Ukraine, Nazis and western support
Post by: ivica on October 14, 2017, 08:26:27 PM
I posted a specific passages from the OUN party manifesto:

"Moskali [i.e. ethnic Russians], Poles, and Jews that are hostile to us are to be destroyed in struggle, particularly those opposing the regime, by means of: deporting them to their own lands, eradicating their intelligentsia, which is not to be admitted to any governmental positions, and overall preventing any creation of this intelligentsia (e.g. access to education etc)... Jews are to be isolated, removed from governmental positions in order to prevent sabotage... Those who are deemed necessary may only work under strict supervision and removed from their positions for slightest misconduct... Jewish assimilation is not possible."

Nazi enuf for me, but not for some, apparently.

sidd
Ship sinks, someones spit on deck makes outrage.
our saying ain't gonna help i'm afraid, so mine aint gonna repeat.
Title: Re: Ukraine, Nazis and western support
Post by: sidd on October 14, 2017, 10:30:45 PM
For a longish look at Bandera and his party, there is a three part series brginning at

https://www.historyanswers.co.uk/history-of-war/stepan-bandera-ukrainian-nationalism-part-i-prelude-to-war/ (https://www.historyanswers.co.uk/history-of-war/stepan-bandera-ukrainian-nationalism-part-i-prelude-to-war/)

That article has links to parts 2 and 3.

There is a review of Bandera and the OUN at jacobin by Daniel Lazare

https://www.jacobinmag.com/2015/09/stepan-bandera-nationalist-euromaidan-right-sector/ (https://www.jacobinmag.com/2015/09/stepan-bandera-nationalist-euromaidan-right-sector/)

"A month earlier, Bandera and his chief lieutenants — Stepan Lenkavs’kyi, Stepan Shukhevych, and Iaroslav Stets’ko — had put the finishing touches on an internal party document entitled “The Struggle and Activities of the OUN in Wartime,” a to-do list for when the Wehrmacht crossed the Soviet border.

It called on members to take advantage of the “favorable situation” posed by a “war between Moscow and other states” to create a national revolution that would draw up all Ukraine in its vortex. It conceived of revolution as a great purification process in which “Muscovites, Poles, and Jews” would be “destroyed . . . in particular those who protect the [Soviet] regime.” Although the OUN regarded the Nazis as allies, the document stressed that OUN activists should commence the revolution as soon as possible so as present the Wehrmacht with a fait accompli:

    We treat the coming German army as the army of allies. We try before their coming to put life in order, on our own as it should be. We inform them that the Ukrainian authority is already established, it is under the control of the OUN under the leadership of Stepan Bandera; all matters are regulated by the OUN and the local authorities are ready to establish friendly relations with the army, in order to fight together against Moscow.

The document continued that “it is permissible to liquidate undesirable Poles . . . NKVD people, informers, provocateurs . . . all important Ukrainians who, in the critical time, would try to make ‘their politics’ and thereby threaten the decisive mind-set of the Ukrainian nation,” adding that only one party would be permitted under the new order — the OUN."

Bandera was even ready to reconsider Ukrainian independence in favor of closer alliance with Nazi Germany.

"In a letter to Alfred Rosenberg in August 1941, Bandera offered to meet German objections by reconsidering the question of Ukrainian independence. On December 9, he sent him another letter pleading for reconciliation: “German and Ukrainian interests in Eastern Europe are identical. For both sides, it is a vital necessity to consolidate (normalize) Ukraine in the best and fastest way and to include it in the European spiritual, economic, and political system.”

"Ukrainian nationalism, he went on, had taken shape “in a spirit similar to the National Socialist ideas” and was needed to “spiritually cure the Ukrainian youth” who had been poisoned by their upbringing under the Soviets."

"Citing the Polish historian Grezegorz Motyka, Rossoliński-Liebe says that the UPA killed close to 100,000 Poles between 1943 and 1945 and that Orthodox priests blessed the axes, pitchforks, scythes, sickles, knives, and sticks that the peasants it mobilized used to finish them off.

Simultaneously, UPA attacks on Jews continued at such a ferocious level that Jews actually sought the protection of the Germans. “The Banderite bands and the local nationalists raided every night, decimating the Jews,” a survivor testified in 1948. “Jews sheltered in the camps where Germans were stationed, fearing an attack by Banderites. Some German soldiers were brought to protect the camps and thereby also the Jews.”

Yup. Nazi enuf for me.

sidd
Title: Re: Ukraine, Nazis and western support
Post by: TerryM on October 14, 2017, 11:02:46 PM
sidd


Thanks for setting the record straight. I've two Polish friends who lost family to Bandera's thugs.
They're furious at those trying to remake Bandera as some kind of heroic figure.


If people self identify as Nazi, I'll accept their word for it.
Terry



Title: Re: Ukraine, Nazis and western support
Post by: Rob Dekker on October 15, 2017, 06:20:53 AM
I looked around a LOT to find an english version of that "OUN manifesto" that sidd was talking about, and that was mentioned in the wiki pages.

It took me a while, but I found this :
http://rid.org.ua/borot-ba-j-diyal-nist-oun-pid-chas-vijn/ (http://rid.org.ua/borot-ba-j-diyal-nist-oun-pid-chas-vijn/)

I'm not really sure if this is the actual document the OUN compiled, but assuming it is, I think that this Bandera guy was up to no good.
I used Google translate to read this document, and it looks like his intent was to create some sort of totalitarian state, not unlike Germany's Nazi government or Russia's Stalin empire.

The note about Minority policy is also noteworthy : It looks like Bandera envisioned a state in which no criticism or perceived criticism of the state would be tolerated, especially not by minority groups, which is very much Nazi behavior.

Overall, Bandera appears to be a very controversial figure in history, and if you guys want to put the Nazi stamp on him, I will no longer object.
Title: Re: Ukraine, Nazis and western support
Post by: TerryM on October 15, 2017, 06:49:08 AM
I'm relieved.
Will you now be willing to reconsider your stance on those who hold Bandera in very high regard?
Terry

Title: Re: Ukraine, Nazis and western support
Post by: Rob Dekker on October 15, 2017, 06:50:41 AM
I'm relieved.
Will you now be willing to reconsider your stance on those who hold Bandera in very high regard?
Terry
Can you be specific, Terry ?
Title: Re: Ukraine, Nazis and western support
Post by: Rob Dekker on October 15, 2017, 06:55:01 AM
Talking about not tolerating any criticism of the state, especially not by minority groups, we have this report from Crimea :

https://www.rferl.org/a/ukraine-russia-crimea-tatars-umerov-convicted-separatism/28759910.html (https://www.rferl.org/a/ukraine-russia-crimea-tatars-umerov-convicted-separatism/28759910.html)

It looks like Putin's Russia also has Nazi tendencies.
Title: Re: Ukraine, Nazis and western support
Post by: sidd on October 15, 2017, 07:44:40 AM
For a detailed look at Bandera and associates

Marco Carynnyk (2011) Foes of our rebirth: Ukrainian nationalist discussions
about Jews, 1929–1947, Nationalities Papers, 39:3, 315-352, DOI: 10.1080/00905992.2011.570327

"The article examines archival documents, publications by OUN members, and recent scholarly literature to trace the evolution of OUN thinking about Jews from 1929 through the war years, when the German occupation of Ukraine gave the OUN an opportunity to stage pogroms and persecute Jews, and the prime minister of the state that the OUN proclaimed wrote that he supported “the destruction of the Jews and the expedience of bringing German methods of exterminating Jewry to Ukraine”.

"When the Cracow congress closed, Stepan Bandera asked three of his closest companions – Stepan Lenkavs’kyi, Roman Shukhevych, and Iaroslav Stets’ko – to join him in preparing a master plan for the moment when Germany would attack the Soviet Union."

"With the rest of the disarmed soldiers do as follows: Russians peasants to be disarmed and handed over as prisoners to the Germans, that is, to be liquidated. Other nationalities to be permitted to go home. Political officers and known Communists and Russians to be liquidated. The same (somewhat sharper) with NKVD units. (3833/2/1/31, TsDAVOVU)"

"The national minorities are divided into

a) those that are friendly to us, that is, members of previously subjugated peoples
b) those that are hostile to us, Russians, Poles, Jews.

Re a. Have equal rights with Ukrainians; we help them return to their homelands.

Re b. Destruction in battle, particularly those who defend the regime: deportation to their lands, principally destroy the intelligentsia, which cannot be allowed to assume any official positions, and in general make it impossible to create an intelligentsia, that is, access to schools and so forth. For example, so-called Polish peasants are to be assimilated, given the explanation, especially at this heated and fanatical time, that they are Ukrainians of the Latin rite who have been forcibly assimilated. The leaders to be destroyed. Jews to be isolated, eliminated from official positions in order to avoid sabotage, Russians and Poles all the more so. If there should be an insurmountable need to leave a Jew in the economic adminis- tration, place one of our militiamen over him and liquidate him for the slightest offense. Administrators of various branches can only be Ukrainians, never hostile aliens. Assimilation of Jews is excluded (3833/2/1/38, TsDAVOVU)."

"7. All citizens of the village (locality, collective farm, factory) are required to report to the People’s Militia command any concealed Red Army soldiers, NKVD agents, Jews, and secret informers, in short, anyone who does not belong the community and who came here as a result of the occupation of Ukrainian lands by Red Moscow, as well as citizens who were informers for the NKVD. . ..
10. Failure to carry out these instructions may be punished by application of revolutionary repressions, including the penalty of execution, particularly in the case of points 4 and 7. (3833/2/1/62, TsDAVOVU)"

Then the whitewash about not necessarily attacking Jews because  it might look bad.

"In April 1942 an OUN(B) conference passed a resolution that made a more specific
reference to Jews:

Despite [our] negative attitude toward Jews as a tool of Russian Bolshevik imperialism we do not think it expedient at the present moment in the international situation to take part in anti-Jewish actions in order to avoid becoming a blind tool in alien hands and turning the attention of the masses away from the main enemies. (“Nepovnyi tekst postanov II-oı̈ Konferentsiı̈,” 57/4/346/14, TsDAHOU)"

"Two months later OUN(B) leaders set about rewriting the record of their treatment of
Jews by ordering the preparation of:

c. Lists that would confirm that the Germans carried out anti-Jewish pogroms and liquidations by themselves, without the participation or help of the Ukrainian police, and instead, before carrying out the executions, urged the Jewish committee or the rogues themselves to confirm with their signatures the presence of the Ukrainian police and its involvement in the actions.

d. Material that would clearly confirm that Poles had initiated and taken part in anti-Jewish pogroms and at the same time that they had served as the hirelings and agents of the Germans in their struggle with Ukrainians. (“Nakaz Ch. 2/43, Oblasnym, okruzhnym i povitovym providnykam do vykonannia,” 3833/1/43/9, TsDAVOVU) (Figure 8 )"

"An OUN-UPA leader in the region addressed an appeal, in English, to the “brotherly Czech and Slovak nations.” “We have never edited nor spread nowhere, from our side, neither here, in Ukraine, nor the more in Slovakia any anti-Jewish leaflets,” the leader proclaimed. In all our political literature, underground revolutionary papers and proclamations, neither now, nor at the time of the German occupation you would seek in vain if only one word directed against the Jews. Like objections are nothing other as a sterling invective and lie. As well as we have never taken a part in any anti-Jewish actions. (Potichnyj 158)"

The paper has chapter and verse. Read it if you have the stomach.

Bandera wound up working for MI6 who dropped him, too crazy for them. The CIA worked with his associates. But then the West Germans picked Bandera up under Gehlen, the Nazi rehabed into West Germany intelligence. Unfortunately, Gehlen's organization was thoroughly penetrated by the Soviets, who killed Bandera after a lunch meet with West German intelligence.

So sad.

sidd
Title: Re: Ukraine, Nazis and western support
Post by: sidd on October 15, 2017, 08:05:27 AM
For a look at attempted  rehablitation of Bandera, the OUN and the UPA by the current Ukrainian government:

http://foreignpolicy.com/2016/05/02/the-historian-whitewashing-ukraines-past-volodymyr-viatrovych/ (http://foreignpolicy.com/2016/05/02/the-historian-whitewashing-ukraines-past-volodymyr-viatrovych/)

These guys are Nazis and apologists for Nazis.

sidd

Title: Re: Ukraine, Nazis and western support
Post by: TerryM on October 15, 2017, 08:57:38 PM
For a look at attempted  rehablitation of Bandera, the OUN and the UPA by the current Ukrainian government:

http://foreignpolicy.com/2016/05/02/the-historian-whitewashing-ukraines-past-volodymyr-viatrovych/ (http://foreignpolicy.com/2016/05/02/the-historian-whitewashing-ukraines-past-volodymyr-viatrovych/)

These guys are Nazis and apologists for Nazis.

sidd


For any that still are having difficulty recognizing the Kiev Regime's Nazi roots the above is a must read. FP can not simply be dismissed as a product of Putin's propaganda.


Every country likes to portray themselves and their history in the best possible light. Invoking memories of Bandera may serve the domestic market, but the rest of the world has little sympathy for the man, his ideology, or his methods.


Terry
Title: Re: Ukraine, Nazis and western support
Post by: TerryM on October 15, 2017, 10:27:21 PM
Talking about not tolerating any criticism of the state, especially not by minority groups, we have this report from Crimea :

https://www.rferl.org/a/ukraine-russia-crimea-tatars-umerov-convicted-separatism/28759910.html (https://www.rferl.org/a/ukraine-russia-crimea-tatars-umerov-convicted-separatism/28759910.html)

It looks like Putin's Russia also has Nazi tendencies.


Have you followed Limi's case at all? I have not, but a few things have popped up.


Limi apparently was born in Uzbekistan, then part of the Soviet Union, yet he claims to be "Only a citizen of Ukrainian". Was he at some time naturalized as a Ukrainian?


He claims that his words have been distorted during translation from Tatar to Russian. Does this mean that he acknowledges that the speech would be illegal as it's translated, but would not be if heard and understood in the original Tatar? Was this Russian translation broadcast by the Tatar/Turkish TV station, or was this translation something that only showed up during his trial?


The US and others have called on Russia to "Free Umerov Immediately", yet it appears that he is free and at home awaiting appeal.


It's an interesting case as apparently the separatists, from Ukraine, have tried and found guilty a person who desires separation from the separatists. :o


I'd like to know just what it was that he said, in Tatar, in Russian, and in English.
https://sv.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ilmi_Umerov (https://sv.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ilmi_Umerov)   and googling his last name.


The Unz Review, citing a Washington Post poll opines that the Tatars are about evenly split on the Crimean situation Their primary strong dislike appears to have been Obama, as opposed to Putin.
http://www.unz.com/akarlin/crimean-tatars-for-russia/ (http://www.unz.com/akarlin/crimean-tatars-for-russia/)


Terry
Title: Re: Ukraine, Nazis and western support
Post by: Rob Dekker on October 16, 2017, 07:27:54 AM
Talking about not tolerating any criticism of the state, especially not by minority groups, we have this report from Crimea :

https://www.rferl.org/a/ukraine-russia-crimea-tatars-umerov-convicted-separatism/28759910.html (https://www.rferl.org/a/ukraine-russia-crimea-tatars-umerov-convicted-separatism/28759910.html)

It looks like Putin's Russia also has Nazi tendencies.


Have you followed Limi's case at all? I have not, but a few things have popped up.

For starters, his name is  Ilmi, not Limi.
Which tells a lot about how informed you are about Crimean Tatars.

Secondly, don't you see the Russian hypocrisy of convicting Crimean Tatar Leader  Ilmi Umerov Of 'Separatism'" ?

After all, Russia had no problem with "separatism" when it came to territories of Ukraine.
Title: Re: Ukraine, Nazis and western support
Post by: Neven on October 16, 2017, 06:33:13 PM
Looking at all kinds of Ukraine-related videos, I thought these two parts of an interview with a historian were interesting to watch (click !no longer available if the videos don't show):

Svoboda and the History of Ukrainian Nationalism Pt. 1

! No longer available (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kqnA353ioFM#)

and

How Right-Wing Nationalists Rose to Power in Ukraine (2/2)

! No longer available (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IxDUUYFOZVI#)
Title: Re: Ukraine, Nazis and western support
Post by: TerryM on October 17, 2017, 02:30:23 AM
Looking at all kinds of Ukraine-related videos, I thought these two parts of an interview with a historian were interesting to watch (click !no longer available if the videos don't show):

Svoboda and the History of Ukrainian Nationalism Pt. 1

! No longer available (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kqnA353ioFM#)

and

How Right-Wing Nationalists Rose to Power in Ukraine (2/2)

! No longer available (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IxDUUYFOZVI#)
Thanks!
Two very good background videos from from March 2014 - pre Odessa.


The comment sections are powerful, from all sides. Some calling others Nazis, others reveling in being a Nazi, yet others denying they're more than "center right".


One comment lead me to this, from Aug, 2014:
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/ukraine/11025137/Ukraine-crisis-the-neo-Nazi-brigade-fighting-pro-Russian-separatists.html (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/ukraine/11025137/Ukraine-crisis-the-neo-Nazi-brigade-fighting-pro-Russian-separatists.html)
An early, eerie look at Azov.


Terry
Title: Re: Ukraine, Nazis and western support
Post by: Rob Dekker on October 17, 2017, 07:44:07 AM
Looking at all kinds of Ukraine-related videos, I thought these two parts of an interview with a historian were interesting to watch (click !no longer available if the videos don't show):

I watched both videos, and it seems to me that Dr. Per Anders Rudling is painting a balanced view of the situation in Ukraine (back in 2014).

I found it interesting that he suggested that Yanukovych may be the one responsible for the popularity of Svoboda between 2010 and 2012 ; since Yanukovych had full control of the media, he gave Svoboda (who had only have 1% of the vote in 2010) lots of air time, which helped take away voters from the mainstream parties. That seems to have worked, since Svoboda obtained 10% of the vote in 2012 and Yanukovych' Party of Regions remained in power during that time.

So the "right wing nationalist rise to power in Ukraine" in 2012 may very well have been orchestrated by Yanukovych, or his political adviser (wasn't that Paul Manafort ?).

Either way, Svoboda now holds only 6 seats (out of 450) in the Ukrainian Rada, after they suffered a devastating loss in the 2014 elections. So it is more like the "rise and fall of the Right-Wing Nationalists Power in Ukraine".

So really, guys, why are we even talking about right-wing nationalist parties in Ukraine ?

Shouldn't we be talking about the rise in right-wing nationalists parties in Europe (incidentally sponsored by Russia), which have a much larger percentage of the vote, and about that ultra-nationalist figure in the Kremlin who invades other countries, and that nationalist idiot in the White House who doesn't even denounce the Ku Klux Klan ?
Title: Re: Ukraine, Nazis and western support
Post by: sidd on October 17, 2017, 08:03:18 AM
"So really, guys, why are we even talking about right-wing nationalist parties in Ukraine ?"

Perhaps because of the title of this thread ?

"Shouldn't we be talking about ..."

Perhaps because of the title of this thread ...

sidd
Title: Re: Ukraine, Nazis and western support
Post by: Rob Dekker on October 17, 2017, 08:23:52 AM
Perhaps because of the title of this thread ...

A thread that has shown that there was no western support for Nazis in Ukraine.
And that there are not that as many Nazis in Ukraine as Russian propaganda suggested.
A thread that showed that NOBODY helped the Ukrainians when the Russians invaded their country.
A thread which you created because.... ?
Title: Re: Ukraine, Nazis and western support
Post by: sidd on October 17, 2017, 09:54:42 AM
You have your opinions on the evidence and others have others.

Now as to current neo nazi influence in Ukrainian politics: the People's Front party have 82 seats.

A founder was a guy called Andriy Parubiy who asked that " the European Parliament to reconsider its negative reaction to former Ukrainian President Victor Yushchenko's decision to award Stepan Bandera, the leader of the Organization of Ukrainian Nationalists, the title of Hero of Ukraine" 

"In 1991 he founded the Social-National Party of Ukraine together with Oleh Tyahnybok" who is another charmer, look him up.

Parubiy was feted by McCain and Ryan
 
https://www.alternet.org/grayzone-project/john-mccain-and-paul-ryan-hold-good-meeting-veteran-ukrainian-nazi-demagogue-andriy (https://www.alternet.org/grayzone-project/john-mccain-and-paul-ryan-hold-good-meeting-veteran-ukrainian-nazi-demagogue-andriy)

Another leading light of the People's Front is Arsen Avakov. Now that boy is describd in Wikipedia as drawing the ire of a rabbi:

"In November 2014, Ukraine's chief rabbi Yaakov Bleich condemned Avakov's appointment of Azov Battalion deputy commander and leading Patriot of Ukraine member Vadym Troyan as Kiev Oblast police chief, and demanded that "if the interior minister continues to appoint people of questionable repute and ideologies tainted with fascism and right-wing extremism, the interior minister should be replaced."

The People's Front has a military council [Wikipedia] including

Andriy Biletsky, commander of the Azov Battalion
Ihor Lapin, company commander of the Aidar Battalion

Look up the Aidar and Azov batallions, is instructive.

I'm afraid that rebranding doesn't quite work any more. These guys are nazis and the USA under Obama openly got in bed with them after decades of covert support to Bandera's descendants.  So sad.

sidd


Title: Re: Ukraine, Nazis and western support
Post by: Rob Dekker on October 17, 2017, 10:22:09 AM
Now as to current neo nazi influence in Ukrainian politics: the People's Front party have 82 seats.

A founder was a guy called Andriy Parubiy who asked that " the European Parliament to reconsider its negative reaction to former Ukrainian President Victor Yushchenko's decision to award Stepan Bandera, the leader of the Organization of Ukrainian Nationalists, the title of Hero of Ukraine" 

"In 1991 he founded the Social-National Party of Ukraine together with Oleh Tyahnybok" who is another charmer, look him up.

Yes. That was Svoboda. 4.7% of the vote.
You are going in circles, sidd.

But I see where you are going. You want to link one person that founded Svoboda to a more popular middle of the road party, and then sort of extend what that person said at one point to that entire party.

I get it.

What I don't get is WHY ?
WHY are you so determined to put the stamp of Nazi on the Ukrainian democracy ?
Title: Re: Ukraine, Nazis and western support
Post by: Rob Dekker on October 17, 2017, 10:37:10 AM
Quote
The People's Front has a military council [Wikipedia] including

Andriy Biletsky, commander of the Azov Battalion
Ihor Lapin, company commander of the Aidar Battalion

Look up the Aidar and Azov batallions, is instructive.

Interesting, since both these batallions are funded by a jew (Ihor Kolomoyskyi).
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ihor_Kolomoyskyi

Are you now claiming that Ihor is a Nazi too ?
Title: Re: Ukraine, Nazis and western support
Post by: Neven on October 17, 2017, 11:47:53 AM
Interesting, since both these batallions are funded by a jew (Ihor Kolomoyskyi).
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ihor_Kolomoyskyi

Are you now claiming that Ihor is a Nazi too ?

Either that, or he is part of that small group of people who'll do anything to further their agenda (get more money and power, by helping the mountain of concentrated wealth grow bigger), not thinking along lines of borders or race. Just like super-corrupt Yanukovych trying to prop up Svoboda (a Pied Piper strategy of sorts).
Title: Re: Ukraine, Nazis and western support
Post by: Rob Dekker on October 19, 2017, 07:50:42 AM
Either that, or he is part of that small group of people who'll do anything to further their agenda (get more money and power, by helping the mountain of concentrated wealth grow bigger), not thinking along lines of borders or race. Just like super-corrupt Yanukovych trying to prop up Svoboda (a Pied Piper strategy of sorts).

So the choice for Kolomoyskyi is to be either a Nazi Jew (that would be a first), or a greedy person "who'll do anything to further their agenda " ?

No space for anything in between ?
Title: Re: Ukraine, Nazis and western support
Post by: Neven on October 19, 2017, 10:05:18 AM
Either that, or he is part of that small group of people who'll do anything to further their agenda (get more money and power, by helping the mountain of concentrated wealth grow bigger), not thinking along lines of borders or race. Just like super-corrupt Yanukovych trying to prop up Svoboda (a Pied Piper strategy of sorts).

So the choice for Kolomoyskyi is to be either a Nazi Jew (that would be a first), or a greedy person "who'll do anything to further their agenda " ?

No space for anything in between ?

That's how it looks to me, based on his resume.

From the Wikipedia link you posted:

Quote
Kolomoyskyi has used Privat's "quasi-military forces" to enforce hostile takeovers of companies, sending a team of "hired rowdies armed with baseball bats, iron bars, gas and rubber bullet pistols and chainsaws" to forcibly take over a Kremenchuk steel plant in 2006, and has used "a mix of phony court orders (often involving corrupt judges and/or registrars) and strong-arm tactics" to replace directors on the boards of companies he purchases stakes in. Kolomoyskyi was criticized by Mr Justice Mann in a court case in London involving an attempted hostile takeover of an oil company, with the judge stating that he had "a reputation of having sought to take control of a company at gunpoint in Ukraine" and that there were "strong grounds for doubting the honesty of Mr Kolomoyskyi"

In March 2015, after the dismissal of Oleksandr Lazorko, who was a protege of Kolomoyskyi, as a chief executive of UkrTransNafta, Ukraine's state-owned oil pipeline operator, men reported to be Kolomoyskyi's personal militia raided the UkrTransNafta's headquarters to expel the new government-appointed chief from the office. While Lazorko was in charge the state-owned pipelines had been delivering oil to an Kolomoisky-owned refinery in preference to competitors. According to Kolomoyskyi the raids were done with the aim to protect the companies from raiders and he related to it as a "PR-stunt to improve the ratings of smaller parties".

Kolomoyski is a prominent supporter of Ukraine's Jewish community and the president of the United Jewish Community of Ukraine. In 2010, he was appointed as the president of the European Council of Jewish Communities after promising the outgoing president he would donate $14 million, with his appointment being described as a "putsch"[48][49] and a "Soviet-style takeover" by other EJCJ board members. After several ECJC board members resigned in protest, Kolomyski quit the ECJC and, together with fellow Ukrainian oligarch Vadim Rabinovich, founded the European Jewish Union.

To me this all sounds like a person who is willing to go any lengths to obtain what he deems as necessary to protect or further his interests (like all Russian/Ukrainian oligarchs). Someone with such a mindset probably doesn't think along lines of Jew/Nazi or my country/other country, like you and I do. You don't become a billionaire oligarch just like that. And extreme-right Jews have known to exist. Maybe he doesn't care so much about Azov's background, as long as they do things that further his agenda (like getting back his Crimean assets or whatever).
Title: Re: Ukraine, Nazis and western support
Post by: sidd on October 19, 2017, 06:42:09 PM
The guy is an equal opportunity looter, grabbed billions from PrivatBank, while the auditor(PwC) turned a blind eye. PwC lost their license in Ukraine after that.

https://www.reuters.com/article/ukraine-privatbank-idUSL5N1KF1SE

Now he is involved in another shady deal being dragged throu UK courts.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/10454347/Oligarchs-at-war-in-the-British-courts.html

Just another crook.

sidd


Title: Re: Ukraine, Nazis and western support
Post by: TerryM on October 19, 2017, 07:49:16 PM
The guy is an equal opportunity looter, grabbed billions from PrivatBank, while the auditor(PwC) turned a blind eye. PwC lost their license in Ukraine after that.

https://www.reuters.com/article/ukraine-privatbank-idUSL5N1KF1SE (https://www.reuters.com/article/ukraine-privatbank-idUSL5N1KF1SE)

Now he is involved in another shady deal being dragged throu UK courts.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/10454347/Oligarchs-at-war-in-the-British-courts.html (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/10454347/Oligarchs-at-war-in-the-British-courts.html)

Just another crook.


sidd
Like Vito Corleone was just another Italian immigrant.


Ihor gives crooks a bad name.
Terry
Title: Re: Ukraine, Nazis and western support
Post by: Rob Dekker on October 20, 2017, 04:39:17 AM
Yeah. I did not do fact checking on Kolomoisky, but by the looks of it he is one of the reasons why Ukraine is considered so corrupt.

Poroshenko even went head-to-head with him in a crack-down on corrupt oligarchs in Ukraine :
http://www.politico.eu/article/star-wars-in-ukraine-poroshenko-vs-kolomoisky/

Title: Re: Ukraine, Nazis and western support
Post by: Rob Dekker on October 23, 2017, 07:07:29 AM
It is a bit off-subject, but since 'corruption' came up as a major issue, the recent uprising in Ukraine deserves attention :
http://www.newsweek.com/war-against-corruption-ukraine-hots-690245

People in Ukraine are sick and tired of corruption in their nation.
They make it to the street, and protest. Especially the military veterans that fought the Russians in Donbass.

I wonder. Do people like Terry and Sidd still suggest that these people that are taking to the streets now are still Nazis (after all, there are many military among them), or is this latest uprising a true uprising of the people against corruption in their nation ?
Title: Re: Ukraine, Nazis and western support
Post by: sidd on October 23, 2017, 07:44:19 AM
Well, i can't speak for "people like Terry," but if you wish to discuss Nazis in the Ukraine, I ask what this anti corruption demonstration has to do with the issue ?

If your point is that there are non Nazis in the Ukraine, I gladly concede.

sidd
Title: Re: Ukraine, Nazis and western support
Post by: Rob Dekker on October 23, 2017, 08:10:31 AM
Well, i can't speak for "people like Terry," but if you wish to discuss Nazis in the Ukraine, I ask what this anti corruption demonstration has to do with the issue ?

OK. The question is if in your opinion this recent uprising in Ukraine is further proof of
"western powers aiding Nazi groups in the Ukraine" as you suggested the Maidan was, or if this uprising is (in your opinion) finally a real uprising of the people of Ukraine ?
Title: Re: Ukraine, Nazis and western support
Post by: sidd on October 23, 2017, 08:33:14 AM
I have no idea what this demonstration has to do with Nazis. Perhaps someone has evidence for or against Nazi participation ? If not, perhaps take it to another thread ?

sidd
Title: Re: Ukraine, Nazis and western support
Post by: Rob Dekker on October 23, 2017, 08:38:51 AM
Sidd said "I have no idea what this demonstration has to do with Nazis. "

So then why would you think that any previous uprising in Ukraine (specifically the EuroMaidan) has anything to do with Nazis (or western support thereof) ?
Title: Re: Ukraine, Nazis and western support
Post by: sidd on October 23, 2017, 09:01:45 AM
Odd. I cannot find any post of mine that mentions Euromaidan, except one in the title of the link i posted

https://www.jacobinmag.com/2015/09/stepan-bandera-nationalist-euromaidan-right-sector/

But the excerpts i included had nothing to do with euromaidan, and were a historical look at Bandera.

sidd

Title: Re: Ukraine, Nazis and western support
Post by: Avalonian on October 23, 2017, 09:15:27 AM
Sidd said "I have no idea what this demonstration has to do with Nazis. "

So then why would you think that any previous uprising in Ukraine (specifically the EuroMaidan) has anything to do with Nazis (or western support thereof) ?

I don't have any axe to grind here, but that's just bad reasoning, Rob. It reminds me of a "mock" (very mock indeed) undergraduate maths exam question I saw once: "Prove by induction that since you couldn't answer the first question, you won't be able to answer any of the other questions either."  ;)
Title: Re: Ukraine, Nazis and western support
Post by: Rob Dekker on October 23, 2017, 09:29:44 AM
Odd. I cannot find any post of mine that mentions Euromaidan, except one in the title of the link i posted

Oh. C'mon sidd. In the very first post in this thread you mention :

"detailing the long and sordid history of western collaboration with Nazis in the Ukraine:"

referencing this thread :
https://shadowproof.com/2014/08/09/cia-intervention-in-ukraine-has-been-taking-place-for-decades/

which suggests :

Quote
today’s EuroMaidan heroes of yesteryear were in fact trained by the Gestapo and took part in the Holocaust.

and

Quote
Of all the aspects of the current crisis over the NATO/Russia standoff in Ukraine, the determined intervention into Ukrainian political affairs by the United States has been the least reported, at least until recently.

and

Quote
But the current crisis in Ukraine, which pits a U.S.-backed coalition, which includes neo-Nazis, ...

Which suggests you really believe that Euromaidan was instigated by western backed neo-Nazis in Ukraine.

If you did not intend to mean that, than please please say so.

The question remains :
In your opinion is this recent uprising in Ukraine is further proof of
"western powers aiding Nazi groups in the Ukraine" as you suggested the Maidan was, or if this uprising is (in your opinion) finally a real uprising of the people of Ukraine ?
Title: Re: Ukraine, Nazis and western support
Post by: Rob Dekker on October 23, 2017, 10:22:40 AM
Sidd said "I have no idea what this demonstration has to do with Nazis. "

So then why would you think that any previous uprising in Ukraine (specifically the EuroMaidan) has anything to do with Nazis (or western support thereof) ?

I don't have any axe to grind here, but that's just bad reasoning, Rob.

Not really. If sidd has no idea what the current demonstrations have to do with Nazis, then why does he believe the past demonstrations do ?
Title: Re: Ukraine, Nazis and western support
Post by: Avalonian on October 23, 2017, 10:25:42 AM
Because having studied one event in detail does not presuppose that s/he's studied all similar events in detail. 
Title: Re: Ukraine, Nazis and western support
Post by: sidd on October 23, 2017, 09:32:55 PM
I believe that

1) There were Nazis participating in the Euromaidan protests

2) Those nazis were the direct descentans of Bandera

I do not believe that Euromaidan was exclusively Nazi. The shadowproof article makes no such claim either.

sidd
Title: Re: Ukraine, Nazis and western support
Post by: TerryM on October 23, 2017, 10:41:02 PM
I believe that

1) There were Nazis participating in the Euromaidan protests

2) Those nazis were the direct descentans of Bandera

I do not believe that Euromaidan was exclusively Nazi. The shadowproof article makes no such claim either.

sidd


sidd
At some point the "bring me another rock" spoof has to end.


People that aren't convinced by swastikas won't be convinced by wolfs-angle flags. People that aren't convinced when a "parliamentarian" shouts out a few "Heil Hitlers" wont be convinced when he claims to be fighting for a "white Europe". People that witness a coup and insist that it's OK because the perpetrators made new laws to cover their crime are not serious people.


The rocks are there and plenty of them. At some point people are responsible for their own education.


Avalonian
Nice to hear the crisp peel of logic through the darkening miasma.


Terry



Title: Re: Ukraine, Nazis and western support
Post by: Rob Dekker on October 24, 2017, 04:26:02 AM
Because having studied one event in detail does not presuppose that s/he's studied all similar events in detail.

True. He probably did not have time to analyze the recent demonstrations. Which is fine.

But if he "studied one event in detail" then he should be able to present SOME evidence of Nazis in past demonstrations (like Euromaidan). Let alone any "western support" of them.

He didn't.

That's why I asked "why does he believe the past demonstrations do" have anything to do with Nazis ?
Title: Re: Ukraine, Nazis and western support
Post by: Rob Dekker on October 24, 2017, 04:32:35 AM
I believe that

1) There were Nazis participating in the Euromaidan protests

2) Those nazis were the direct descentans of Bandera

I do not believe that Euromaidan was exclusively Nazi. The shadowproof article makes no such claim either.

Seriously, that's it ?

Nobody claims that there were no Nazis in Euromaidan.
And neither does anyone claim that Euromaidan was exclusively Nazi.

Either way, it would be nice if you could provide some evidence of "Nazis participating in the Euromaidan protests". You know, some pictures, or videos with chants like "Jews will not replace us", or so, like the Charlotteville protesters...

And after that some evidence that these Nazis were "direct descentans of Bandera".
Title: Re: Ukraine, Nazis and western support
Post by: Rob Dekker on October 24, 2017, 04:39:47 AM
People that aren't convinced by swastikas won't be convinced by wolfs-angle flags. People that aren't convinced when a "parliamentarian" shouts out a few "Heil Hitlers" wont be convinced when he claims to be fighting for a "white Europe". People that witness a coup and insist that it's OK because the perpetrators made new laws to cover their crime are not serious people.

Terry, could you kindly provide some evidence for the bolded claims ?
Title: Re: Ukraine, Nazis and western support
Post by: sidd on October 24, 2017, 05:59:26 AM
"At some point the "bring me another rock" spoof has to end."

Apparently not. I fully expect it to continue for ever, since historical revisionism never ends.

But as for me, I am done for the moment. I have stated my evidence for the thesis that Western powers have supported Nazis in the Ukraine since the second world war. I do not intend to repeat it. As and when I happen to find new evidence I shall post it.

sidd
Title: Re: Ukraine, Nazis and western support
Post by: Rob Dekker on October 26, 2017, 08:02:38 AM
"At some point the "bring me another rock" spoof has to end."

Apparently not. I fully expect it to continue for ever, since historical revisionism never ends.

Ah. Now the excuse is "historical revisionism" ?
I'm sorry, but Internet has a very good memory.

So far neither you nor Terry has come up with a 'rock'.
Just soap bubbles that were popped one by one.

Can you guys please consider the obvious, that maybe you have been ill-informed by Russian propaganda ?

Still waiting for some evidence of Nazis in Ukraine during the Euromaidan, western support of them, and a challenge to of the evidence presented, that Russian forces are the ones killing Ukrainian civilians in the Donbass.
Title: Re: Ukraine, Nazis and western support
Post by: sidd on October 29, 2017, 03:20:33 AM
I should remark that anti-semitism in Ukraine precedes the Nazis, Bandera was not the first by any means, though viler than most.  Symon Petliura was head of state  and army in 1919-1920 and his forces killed several tens of thousands of Jews. Apparently Petliura wasn't personally antisemitic (some of his best friencds were Jewish, no doubt ...) , but he stood aside: " "it is a pity that pogroms take place, but they uphold the discipline of the army." [Wikipedia]

As part of the the rehab of Ukrainian history, a statue has just been erected of Petilura. Quite unsurprisingly, some people object to that.

https://www.timesofisrael.com/ukraine-honors-nationalist-whose-troops-killed-50000-jews/

sidd



Title: Re: Ukraine, Nazis and western support
Post by: Alexander555 on June 16, 2018, 01:15:32 PM
And the same is happening in India. The hindu nationalists are already in power for several years. A little more population growth, and a little more water stress, and little more air pollution.... And you have a full scale nazi army, with nuclear arms, hundreds of millions strong.
Title: Re: Ukraine, Nazis and western support
Post by: Hefaistos on June 25, 2018, 10:41:03 PM
Atlantic Council now tells us there is a real problem with nazis in Ukraine
"Ukraine’s Got a Real Problem with Far-Right Violence (And No, RT Didn’t Write This Headline)"

http://www.atlanticcouncil.org/blogs/ukrainealert/ukraine-s-got-a-real-problem-with-far-right-violence-and-no-rt-didn-t-write-this-headline
Title: Re: Ukraine, Nazis and western support
Post by: Hefaistos on July 05, 2018, 07:40:35 PM
Israel supplying weapons to Azov neo-nazi brigade:
"Avoz’s young founder and first military commander Andriy Biletsky is today a lawmaker in the Ukrainian parliament. ... Biletsky in 2014 wrote that “the historic mission of our nation in this critical moment is to lead the white races of the world in a final crusade for their survival. A crusade against the Semite-led untermenschen.”

https://electronicintifada.net/content/israel-arming-neo-nazis-ukraine/24876

The Azov Battalion has received teams of American military advisors and high powered US-made weapons.
https://grayzoneproject.com/2018/04/07/the-us-is-arming-and-assisting-neo-nazis-in-ukraine-while-congress-debates-prohibition/

"U.S. corporate media spent years dismissing the role of neo-Nazis in Ukraine’s 2014 coup but it is suddenly going through a conversion, as Daniel Lazare reports."

https://consortiumnews.com/2018/07/05/corporate-medias-about-face-on-ukraines-neo-nazis/
Title: Re: Ukraine, Nazis and western support
Post by: sidd on July 06, 2018, 05:33:14 AM
"Israel supplying weapons to Azov neo-nazi brigade:"

We are truly in a post reality world.

sidd
Title: Re: Ukraine, Nazis and western support
Post by: Neven on July 07, 2018, 06:23:58 PM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mlh6gJmmlN8
Title: Re: Ukraine, Nazis and western support
Post by: Susan Anderson on July 07, 2018, 07:53:20 PM
@Neven: We now have a one-party government, thanks to the divisiveness on the Democratic side that lost the last election. Democrats don't get a voice in Congress. They're in the minority. The majority owns everything now (elected by a minority, but they will amp up the cheating with a complicit Supreme Court as well).
Title: Re: Ukraine, Nazis and western support
Post by: sidd on November 20, 2018, 10:39:24 PM
Blowback: US funded Nazis in the Ukraine train and ally with white supremacists in the USA:

https://consortiumnews.com/2018/11/17/blowback-us-funded-ukraine-neo-nazis-mentor-us-white-supremacists/

sidd
Title: Re: Ukraine, Nazis and western support
Post by: TerryM on November 21, 2018, 03:26:10 AM
Blowback: US funded Nazis in the Ukraine train and ally with white supremacists in the USA:

https://consortiumnews.com/2018/11/17/blowback-us-funded-ukraine-neo-nazis-mentor-us-white-supremacists/ (https://consortiumnews.com/2018/11/17/blowback-us-funded-ukraine-neo-nazis-mentor-us-white-supremacists/)

sidd


I can't wait for the kid's camps they'll be opening at Huntington Beach.

https://www.mintpressnews.com/training-kids-to-kill-at-a-far-right-nationalist-summer-camp-in-ukraine/251845/ (https://www.mintpressnews.com/training-kids-to-kill-at-a-far-right-nationalist-summer-camp-in-ukraine/251845/)

“We never aim guns at people,” instructor Yuri “Chornota” Cherkashin tells the children. “But we don’t count separatists, little green men, occupiers from Moscow, as people. So we can and should aim at them.”

Terry
Title: Re: Ukraine, Nazis and western support
Post by: TerryM on November 25, 2018, 09:58:53 PM
Two possibly unrelated incidents:

1)
Al-Nustra has fired chemical weapons into a residential section of Aleppo injuring ~100 civilians. Syria asks the UN to step in.

https://www.rt.com/news/444829-syria-toxic-attack-un/

As the international outrage grows,

2)
A Ukrainian tugboat accompanying 3 Ukrainian war ships stops directly in the path of a RF coast guard ship, then claims it was "rammed". The RF uses an empty freighter to block Kerch Strait. Russia and Ukraine each claim to have been fired on by the other.

Similar incidents have been the cause of major conflicts in the past. Remember the Maine, remember the Gulf of Tonkin, remember the Lusitania.

https://abcnews.go.com/International/wireStory/latest-ukraine-russia-opens-fire-ukrainian-vessels-59405716

3)?
Episode #1 is no longer the biggest story in MSM, and a very embarrassing episode that certainly lends credibility to the proposition that it has been the rebels using chemical weapons in Syria all along may be swept under the rug.

3)?
If Russia's newly completed bridge is damaged or destroyed, President Putin's amazing ability to turn the other cheek will be sorely tested.

Terry

Title: Re: Ukraine, Nazis and western support
Post by: wili on November 25, 2018, 10:06:43 PM
Well, this is what the Ukrainians are claiming, and how it seems to be getting reported in some of the Western press:

Quote
Russia opened fire on its navy ships in the Kirch Strait

https://www.axios.com/russia-ukraine-crimea-kerch-strait-blockade-6a87f120-3a20-40ad-ae40-4cedce5cad8c.html

Russia fires on and seizes Ukraine ships

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-46338671

Three Ukraine navy boats captured by Russian special forces following firefight

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/ukraine-navy-russia-ship-fire-attack-crimea-artillery-war-kerch-strait-a8651321.html
Title: Re: Ukraine, Nazis and western support
Post by: Human Habitat Index on November 26, 2018, 12:12:21 AM
Two possibly unrelated incidents:

1)
Al-Nustra has fired chemical weapons into a residential section of Aleppo injuring ~100 civilians. Syria asks the UN to step in.

https://www.rt.com/news/444829-syria-toxic-attack-un/

As the international outrage grows,



2)
A Ukrainian tugboat accompanying 3 Ukrainian war ships stops directly in the path of a RF coast guard ship, then claims it was "rammed". The RF uses an empty freighter to block Kerch Strait. Russia and Ukraine each claim to have been fired on by the other.

Similar incidents have been the cause of major conflicts in the past. Remember the Maine, remember the Gulf of Tonkin, remember the Lusitania.

https://abcnews.go.com/International/wireStory/latest-ukraine-russia-opens-fire-ukrainian-vessels-59405716

3)?
Episode #1 is no longer the biggest story in MSM, and a very embarrassing episode that certainly lends credibility to the proposition that it has been the rebels using chemical weapons in Syria all along may be swept under the rug.

3)?
If Russia's newly completed bridge is damaged or destroyed, President Putin's amazing ability to turn the other cheek will be sorely tested.

Terry

Are you aware Gulf of Tonkin was a false flag ?

As are chemical attacks in Syria.
Title: Re: Ukraine, Nazis and western support
Post by: Human Habitat Index on November 26, 2018, 12:17:09 AM
Former chief of Ukraine’s Security Service has confirmed allegations that snipers who killed dozens of people during the violent unrest in Kiev operated from a building controlled by the opposition on Maidan square.

Shots that killed both civilians and police officers were fired from the Philharmonic Hall building in Ukraine’s capital, former head of the Security Service of Ukraine Aleksandr Yakimenko told Russia 1 channel. The building was under full control of the opposition and particularly the so-called Commandant of Maidan self-defense Andrey Parubiy who after the coup was appointed as the Secretary of the National Security and Defense Council of Ukraine, Yakimenko added.

So the chief of the government’s security forces, the head of the opposition’s security forces, and the snipers themselves  all admit the snipers were killing both protesters and police.

https://www.globalresearch.ca/another-false-flag-terror-admission-snipers-in-the-2014-ukraine-protests/5618774

Title: Re: Ukraine, Nazis and western support
Post by: TerryM on November 26, 2018, 01:04:17 AM
Two possibly unrelated incidents:

1)
Al-Nustra has fired chemical weapons into a residential section of Aleppo injuring ~100 civilians. Syria asks the UN to step in.

https://www.rt.com/news/444829-syria-toxic-attack-un/ (https://www.rt.com/news/444829-syria-toxic-attack-un/)

As the international outrage grows,



2)
A Ukrainian tugboat accompanying 3 Ukrainian war ships stops directly in the path of a RF coast guard ship, then claims it was "rammed". The RF uses an empty freighter to block Kerch Strait. Russia and Ukraine each claim to have been fired on by the other.

Similar incidents have been the cause of major conflicts in the past. Remember the Maine, remember the Gulf of Tonkin, remember the Lusitania.

https://abcnews.go.com/International/wireStory/latest-ukraine-russia-opens-fire-ukrainian-vessels-59405716 (https://abcnews.go.com/International/wireStory/latest-ukraine-russia-opens-fire-ukrainian-vessels-59405716)

3)?
Episode #1 is no longer the biggest story in MSM, and a very embarrassing episode that certainly lends credibility to the proposition that it has been the rebels using chemical weapons in Syria all along may be swept under the rug.

3)?
If Russia's newly completed bridge is damaged or destroyed, President Putin's amazing ability to turn the other cheek will be sorely tested.

Terry

Are you aware Gulf of Tonkin was a false flag ?

As are chemical attacks in Syria.


Very much so. The Maine was also not the result of enemy fire and the Lusitania has been found to have been illicitly carrying arms and ammunition.
With this long history of false flags I'm particularly suspicious of naval events that lead to escalations.


I believe that the Sea of Azov events were initiated to bury the news of the chemical attacks by the rebels in Syria. Poroshenko's unpopularity at the polls, and his bid to declare martial law has been cited by a BBC stringer as another possibility for this provocation.


Terry
Title: Re: Ukraine, Nazis and western support
Post by: TerryM on November 26, 2018, 01:33:53 AM
I don't speak the language, but this sounds suspiciously like the bridge of the Russian ship screaming at the Ukrainian tug to get the Hell out of the way.

The tug obviously swung in front of the Russian ship and stopped, and just as obviously caused the collision.

https://southfront.org/wp-content/uploads/2018/11/2-1.mp4?_=1

The Texas accented English drawl (from ~16 sec.) coming from the "Ukrainian" tug makes me question just who was directing the whole operation.

If a Russian speaker could translate it might help.

Terry
Title: Re: Ukraine, Nazis and western support
Post by: Human Habitat Index on November 26, 2018, 04:54:02 AM
Good research, Terry  :)
Title: Re: Ukraine, Nazis and western support
Post by: Red on November 26, 2018, 10:36:01 AM
https://www.greanvillepost.com/2018/11/25/russia-blocks-ukrainian-navy-from-militarizing-the-sea-of-azov/

The Ukrainian government under the oligarch Petro Poroshenko is in election campaign mode. That is one reason why it is launching new provocations against Russia. Yesterday Ukrainian forces occupied a town within the neutral zone between the government controlled part and the rebel held Donetsk area. Today the Ukrainian navy sent a tug and two small gun boats, recently acquired from the U.S. Coast Guard, to pass through the Kerch Strait into the Sea of Azov.
When the ships entered Russian waters without announcing their intent, a Russian coast guard ship rammed and damaged the tug. The two gun boats escaped but did not pass the strait.With Crimea back in Russian hands the Kerch Strait is solely Russian territory. The Treaty on the Legal Status of the Sea of Azov and the Kerch Strait, signed in 2003 by Russia and the Ukraine, provides that military ship entry into the sea is only allowed with mutual consent. Ukraine disputes the status of the sea in an arbitration court. (For a legal discussion of the case see 1, 2, 3.)
The Ukrainian government, urged on by the U.S., wants to establish a new military harbor in the Sea of Azov. Two of its navy ships, a rescue vessel and a tug, passed through the street on September 23. In October the Russian government warned that it will not allow any further militarization of the sea. Some U.S. hawks even want NATO ships to enter the Sea of Azov. The Sea of Azov has a maximum depth of 7 meters. Typical U.S. frigates have a draft of 10+ meters. What NATO or U.S. ship could even go there? As Russia firmly controls the sole entry point into the sea and can easily attack any ship in the Sea of Azov from within its borders the idea is incredibly stupid.

The Kerch Strait is now blocked by a large cargo ship the Russians anchored under the new Kerch bridge.
 Another POV:
https://www.theglobeandmail.com/world/article-russia-blocks-three-ukrainian-navy-ships-from-entering-sea-of-azov/?intcmp=notifications

The portion of the Black Sea where the confrontation unfolded is a swirl of contested borders and disputed rights to access through the strait.

After annexing the Crimean Peninsula in 2014, Russia claimed territorial waters off the peninsula’s coast that Ukraine does not recognize.

Ukraine claims a right to patrol in the entire Sea of Azov under a treaty with Russia designating the sea as shared territorial water. The treaty was signed long before relations curdled after street protesters overthrew a pro-Russian leader of Ukraine in 2014.

Ukraine says Russia’s actions have violated the treaty, as well as the U.N. Law of the Sea, which should guarantee access through the strait. Russian officials said the Ukrainian ships were manoeuvring dangerously, requiring the strait to be temporarily closed for safety.

The North Atlantic Treaty Organization, in a statement carried by Ukrainian media, came down on Ukraine’s side in the dispute. “NATO fully supports the sovereignty of Ukraine and its territorial integrity, including its rights to navigation in its own territorial waters,” said the statement, which was carried in newspaper Ukrainska Pravda.
Title: Re: Ukraine, Nazis and western support
Post by: Human Habitat Index on November 26, 2018, 11:42:16 AM

One day the leaks will also come out that it indeed was a Ukraine Buk missile that shot down MH17 as well I suspect. Some of us may be dead and buried by the time that happens and is finally accepted as the truth of it.
[/quote]

"TWA Flight 800 (TWA 800), a Boeing 747-100, exploded and crashed into the Atlantic Ocean near East Moriches, New York, on July 17, 1996. (...) Initial witness descriptions led many to believe the cause of the crash was a bomb or surface-to-air missile attack."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/TWA_Flight_800

"Malaysia Airlines Flight 17 (MH17/MAS17) was a scheduled international passenger flight from Amsterdam to Kuala Lumpur that crashed on 17 July 2014; it is believed to have been shot down with a surface-to-air missile."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Malaysia_A ... _Flight_17

18 years exactly
 
https://cluesforum.info/viewtopic.php?f=25&t=1732
Title: Re: Ukraine, Nazis and western support
Post by: TerryM on November 26, 2018, 10:49:26 PM
HHI
There is a lot of information re. the Kerch Straits episode than we're privy to.

When and how was the Izunrud damaged?
There is a gaping hole high on her starboard quarter. Far too high above water to have been the result of a collision with the very low freeboard tug boat, and I think too high to have been he result of a collision with the tiny 54 ton gunboats

The only Ukrainian ship in the Azov Sea large enough to have caused such damage is the Donbass, presently listed as a "Command Vessel", but originally the Soviet repair ship PM-9. The Donbass has been based in the Sea of Azov since September 23 when the tug Korets also passed through the strait.
The Korets was the possibly American captained tug that swerved in front of the Don and sustained damage to her starboard quarter.
AFAIK there has been no mention of the Donbass WRT yesterday's actions.

Why is no one else mentioning English broadcasts from the Ukrainian tug at he time of the collision?
Russians, Ukrainians, Americans and other governments must have gone through the audio files from the time of the collision with a fine toothed comb. Why isn't anyone mentioning this anomaly?
I'll wait one more day before mentioning it at some sites that are reporting on the incident, but the silence from all sides seems strange.

https://www.google.ca/imgres?imgurl=https%3A%2F%2Fliveuamap.com%2Fpics%2F2018%2F11%2F25%2F21747727_0.jpg&imgrefurl=https%3A%2F%2Fliveuamap.com%2Fen%2F2018%2F25-november-photo-russian-rfcgs-354-izumrud-a-rubin-class&docid=K_j6MMoQVrxMZM&tbnid=TS1ajucbGXLoyM%3A&vet=10ahUKEwj1_-mSg_PeAhUmTd8KHcMyAdgQMwg9KAAwAA..i&w=1024&h=768&bih=431&biw=877&q=RFCGS%20Izumrud%20(354)&ved=0ahUKEwj1_-mSg_PeAhUmTd8KHcMyAdgQMwg9KAAwAA&iact=mrc&uact=8

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Azov_naval_base_(Ukraine)

http://tass.com/politics/1022937

Terry
Title: Re: Ukraine, Nazis and western support
Post by: Rob Dekker on November 27, 2018, 08:59:52 AM
HHI
There is a lot of information re. the Kerch Straits episode than we're privy to.

When and how was the Izunrud damaged?
There is a gaping hole high on her starboard quarter. Far too high above water to have been the result of a collision with the very low freeboard tug boat, and I think too high to have been he result of a collision with the tiny 54 ton gunboats

With all that wild bullying against the Ukrainian tug-boat and shooting at Ukrainian Navy vessels, I wouldn't be surprised if the Russian "Don" ship accidentally crashed into the "Izumrod"...

Here : watch at 2:28 :

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xpdlGAweVu4

Bunch of morons...
Title: Re: Ukraine, Nazis and western support
Post by: Rob Dekker on November 30, 2018, 08:20:59 AM
Lurk, you forgot to include the link to the RT article where you obtained that drivel about that "coup" in Ukraine.

Did you think including that link would be a too obvious sign of your pro-Putin bias ?
Title: Re: Ukraine, Nazis and western support
Post by: Neven on November 30, 2018, 03:33:18 PM
Enough is enough. It's time the US starts bombing the hell out of Russia (and Iran and China while you're at it, drop them freedom bombs). Everyone agrees. Mattis, Pompeo, Bolton, the Atlantic Council, Lockheed, Clinton, Raytheon, Kristol, Boeing, Browder, Northtrop Gumman, Gisser, Dekker.
Title: Re: Ukraine, Nazis and western support
Post by: Rob Dekker on December 01, 2018, 03:10:58 AM
Hey Neven, look :

Your #2 HERO planned to give your #1 HERO the $50 Million Penthouse In your #2 HERO Tower Moscow :

https://www.buzzfeednews.com/article/anthonycormier/the-trump-organization-planned-to-give-vladimir-putin-the

And, look here :
Your #4 HERO is pal-ing up with your #1 HERO while your #2 HERO wished he could join :

(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DtSoDCmU8AAOrFf.jpg)

Title: Re: Ukraine, Nazis and western support
Post by: Neven on December 01, 2018, 11:46:39 AM
And you are their HERO, Rob. These people would be nowhere without you.
Title: Re: Ukraine, Nazis and western support
Post by: TerryM on December 01, 2018, 07:48:31 PM
Lurk, you forgot to include the link to the RT article where you obtained that drivel about that "coup" in Ukraine.

Did you think including that link would be a too obvious sign of your pro-Putin bias ?


Do you still insist that the violent ouster of an elected head of state shouldn't be referred to as a "coup"? Does Dark Moses propose that we rewrite all of our dictionaries?


Words matter, and words have definitions that can't be changed whenever they don't fit within your biased world view.


Terry
Title: Re: Ukraine, Nazis and western support
Post by: Rob Dekker on December 03, 2018, 08:44:20 AM
And you are their HERO, Rob. These people would be nowhere without you.

Well look at that.

Now I'm not just responsible for inciting WW III, but also personally responsible for putting villains like Putin and bin Salman in their place of power ?

Imagine what I could do for you, Neven ;D
Title: Re: Ukraine, Nazis and western support
Post by: TerryM on December 28, 2018, 07:51:20 PM
The News-Weak Magazine, wanting to present 3 unique perspectives on the Ukrainian situation, enlists the aid of 3 different Atlantic Council Members.
Quite similar to asking 3 NASCAR employees their thoughts on pending legislation concerning noise pollution during sporting events.

https://www.rt.com/op-ed/447578-newsweek-atlantic-council-russia/

News-Weak continues it's tradition of weak journalism bolstered by strong propaganda.
Terry
Title: Re: Ukraine, Nazis and western support
Post by: Red on January 02, 2019, 11:41:33 AM
Finally, a clear and convincing — and unrefuted — case can now be presented to the public, as to precisely whom the guilty party was, that downed the MH17 Malaysian airliner over Ukraine on 17 July 2014, and why it was done. The complete case, which will be fully documented here, displays unequivocally who needed the MH17 murders (of 298 persons) to be perpetrated. This mass-murder was done for one leader’s very pressing obsession. For him, it simply had to be done, and done at that precise time.

The full MH17 case will be presented here, to be judged by the public, because no court of law which possesses the power to bring this (or even any) case on the MH17 murders, is willing to do so, and because the evidence in this 17 July 2014 case has become overwhelming, and is unrefuted. This evidence is accepted by both sides. But it still remains effectively hidden from the publics in the United States and its allied countries. (The present news-report, which is the first ever to present this entire case, is submitted to all news-media in English-speaking countries, so that any of them that wishes to provide its audience access to this uncontested and conclusive evidence in the MH17 case can do so, by publishing this article. Any of them that won’t, don’t want their audience to have access to the conclusive evidence in this case, because this article is being made available to all of them to publish, free of charge; so, there is no other reason not to publish it.)

The complete evidence will be described, and all of the conclusive evidence is linked-to, proving who perpetrated, and who demanded, the shoot-down on 17 July 2014 of the Malaysian airliner MH17.

https://www.greanvillepost.com/2018/12/31/mh17-turnabout-ukraines-guilt-now-proven/
Title: Re: Ukraine, Nazis and western support
Post by: kassy on January 02, 2019, 04:11:41 PM
Quite a sickening piece. I am dutch but missed most of this because there was other stuff on my mind. Too bad i can´t peek into Ruttes head. At some point it must have been clear who did this but then you have to hide it and shit on 196 of your citizens.

Also entirely ignored in the Ukrainain team’s ‘explanation’ of the event is why Ukraine’s air-traffic control had guided the MH17’s pilot to fly over the conflict-zone where Ukraine’s civil war was being waged and where Ukraine’s war-planes were bombing. The MH17’s pilot was instructed by Ukraine’s air-traffic control to take that path instead of the one that the airline had planned and that had become normal during the civil war. This was highly abnormal, and it doomed the MH17. Clearly, only Ukraine’s Government could, and did, do that — change the route, and for only that one plane.

I hope the relatives will pursue some further action in the civil court just to see if it would wake up anyone in this country.
Title: Re: Ukraine, Nazis and western support
Post by: wili on January 02, 2019, 04:30:38 PM
Harvard Library lists Greanville Post as a fake news site...just sayin'
Title: Re: Ukraine, Nazis and western support
Post by: Red on January 02, 2019, 09:16:12 PM
https://www.westernjournal.com/ct/worst-examples-fake-news-media/
Take a look at the rundown below and note that these are just some of the worst — the mainstream media has spread quite a bit of fake news over the years. We’ve included an eighth example from Clinton’s campaign and cronies as a bonus.

So just to be sure I checked and the western journal isn't on the "list".
http://www.propornot.com/p/the-list.html

and from wiki:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Western_Journal
Western Journalism features “conservative, libertarian, free market and pro-family writers and broadcasters.”[7] and seeks to provide “God-honoring” content.

From wikipedia on wikipedia: Wikipedia has been criticized for exhibiting systemic bias, for presenting a mixture of "truths, half truths, and some falsehoods",[18] and for being subject to manipulation and spin in controversial topics
Title: Re: Ukraine, Nazis and western support
Post by: wili on January 02, 2019, 09:54:42 PM
Ah, whataboutism. How original!  ;D ;D ;D
Title: Re: Ukraine, Nazis and western support
Post by: oren on January 03, 2019, 12:13:12 AM
How can anyone be convinced by this article that reads like a pile of propaganda? I honestly tried and failed to read through the repetitive hammering of the main theme, with so little actual claims to back it up.