Arctic Sea Ice : Forum

Off-topic => The rest => Topic started by: budmantis on November 16, 2017, 06:37:10 AM

Title: Who should be the Democratic nominee for President in 2020?
Post by: budmantis on November 16, 2017, 06:37:10 AM
This article about Joe Biden made me wonder whether it was time to open a thread about who would be the best candidate to earn the Democratic Presidential nomination in 2020. It may be a year, possibly more before anyone declares their candidacy, but I have been wondering for some time who would be best.

https://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/joe-biden-2020-harvey-weinstein_us_5a0a0ba8e4b00a6eece3a13e?ncid=inblnkushpmg00000009

Who should be the Democrat's nominee for President? Biden is considering a third attempt, Is Hillary Clinton? How about Eliz. Warren or Bernie Sanders? Who do you think would be the best choice for 2020?
Title: Re: Who should be the Democratic nominee for President in 2020?
Post by: sidd on November 16, 2017, 06:39:23 AM
Would like to add Sherrod Brown to the list.

Also, in case you didnt know, adding the icon for twitter or G+ (or facebook) triggers a whole lot of tracking. Please don't make me use blockers on this site also.

sidd
Title: Re: Who should be the Democratic nominee for President in 2020?
Post by: budmantis on November 16, 2017, 12:40:46 PM
Would like to add Sherrod Brown to the list.

Also, in case you didnt know, adding the icon for twitter or G+ (or facebook) triggers a whole lot of tracking. Please don't make me use blockers on this site also.

sidd

Didn't knowingly insert that, very annoying! How do I get rid of it?

BudM
Title: Re: Who should be the Democratic nominee for President in 2020?
Post by: pileus on November 16, 2017, 02:31:54 PM
Would like to see a credible and strong female candidate emerge.  America needs to have a female serve as POTUS, it's way overdue.  The appetite was proven with the 2016 vote tallies, with decisive results in both the Dem primary and general election.  Senator Warren is usually the first name mentioned, but I'm a bit skeptical she would have national appeal and be able to shake the attacks that Trump and the right wing have been directing towards her.  Senator Gillibrand is another high profile possibility.  Former Acting AG Yates has gotten some buzz, but it's unclear if she has national ambition.

Senator Merkely from Oregon is worth a look, and it's likely a few Californians will jockey for consideration, perhaps Gavin Newsome, maybe Rep Schiff.  VA Gov McAuliffe is know to have interest, and has been popular in the state.
Title: Re: Who should be the Democratic nominee for President in 2020?
Post by: Neven on November 16, 2017, 04:02:07 PM
Didn't knowingly insert that, very annoying! How do I get rid of it?

BudM

It's inserted in every opening post. I'll see if I can get rid of it as admin.

@ pileus

How about Kamala Harris? She's a woman AND she's black (don't know if she's lesbian and/or transgender). She doesn't have much of a track record - like Obama - so she can say just about anything, and she's sure not too swing too far left. After all, she made sure Steve Mnuchin wouldn't be prosecuted.

Warren is great, but she does tend to docilely toe the party line when she veers off too much from the center (which is right-wing everywhere else in the world).
Title: Re: Who should be the Democratic nominee for President in 2020?
Post by: TerryM on November 16, 2017, 05:02:05 PM
How about Tulsi Gabbard?
Whoever the Dems run, if running against Trump, should win. We should have a wide enough opening to fit a progressive through.
If Trump is impeached, or not nominated by the Reps, all bets are off.

Terry
Title: Re: Who should be the Democratic nominee for President in 2020?
Post by: Neven on November 16, 2017, 06:01:16 PM
How about Tulsi Gabbard?

I think she's a bit too stiff. For the presidency that is.

I think Nina Turner is great as a personality/speaker/inspirer (woman AND black), but I'm not sure she has the skills and experience for such a job.

Whoever it is, it is crucial that this person isn't completely tied to corporate interests, in the sense that they're effectively a puppet.
Title: Re: Who should be the Democratic nominee for President in 2020?
Post by: Rob Dekker on November 17, 2017, 06:20:52 AM
I still think Bernie should run again.

(https://img0.etsystatic.com/169/1/13867578/il_340x270.1079820056_t84t.jpg)
Title: Re: Who should be the Democratic nominee for President in 2020?
Post by: budmantis on November 17, 2017, 06:41:02 AM
I agree Rob, even at his advanced age!

BudM
Title: Re: Who should be the Democratic nominee for President in 2020?
Post by: pileus on November 17, 2017, 03:44:56 PM
I still think Bernie should run again.

(https://img0.etsystatic.com/169/1/13867578/il_340x270.1079820056_t84t.jpg)

Fully expected the thread to end up here, along with various and sundry snark from Northern Europeans that are out of touch with the American political landscape.

By all indications Bernie seems to be preparing to run, but Dems should again be cautious in entertaining the notion of a non-Democrat competing for the party nomination.  In addition to losing to HRC by 3.7 million votes, Bernie was unable to capture the votes of actual Democrats.  This could be a primary reason the Bro crowd is pushing to rig the process with more voter suppressing caucuses instead of democratic primaries.

Bernie also fails to appeal to the poor and working class, and lost to HRC at all income levels.

Bernie's only source of strength was the under 30 crowd, which includes a lot of the Bros.  This demographic is becoming a larger share of the electorate (although as the Bros age they may not be able to maintain their man-buns, so they will need to come up with a different look when they show up at the caucus to shout everyone down), so for Bernie to have any chance as the Dem nominee as a non-Dem, he would need to find a way to build and expand his appeal beyond one demographic.

I remain skeptical the he would prevail, but if so I  fear he would alienate a large portion of the core Dem constituency, handing the presidency to Republicans.  I have voted straight Dem since 1988, but I would never cast a vote for Bernie Sanders.

Title: Re: Who should be the Democratic nominee for President in 2020?
Post by: Rob Dekker on November 18, 2017, 06:17:54 AM
I have voted straight Dem since 1988, but I would never cast a vote for Bernie Sanders.

Why not ?
Title: Re: Who should be the Democratic nominee for President in 2020?
Post by: Sigmetnow on November 18, 2017, 02:43:29 PM
Some interesting and entertaining picks (and opinions) from the folks at FiveThirtyEight:

Our Way-Too-Early 2020 Democratic Primary Draft
Bookmark this to see how idiotic we look in four years.
https://fivethirtyeight.com/features/our-way-too-early-2020-democratic-primary-draft/
Title: Re: Who should be the Democratic nominee for President in 2020?
Post by: Rob Dekker on November 19, 2017, 09:08:37 AM
As late as 7:00pm on election night, FiveThirtyEight, a trusted prognosticator of the election, gave Clinton a 71 percent chance of winning the presidency.
Title: Re: Who should be the Democratic nominee for President in 2020?
Post by: Sigmetnow on November 21, 2017, 02:29:19 PM
As late as 7:00pm on election night, FiveThirtyEight, a trusted prognosticator of the election, gave Clinton a 71 percent chance of winning the presidency.

And they've done sooooo many articles since then to try to explain why. ;D
Title: Re: Who should be the Democratic nominee for President in 2020?
Post by: sidd on November 25, 2017, 12:19:44 AM
Parnes at thehill has a list:

Deval Patrick was a new one to me, dunno much about him.

http://thehill.com/homenews/campaign/361607-how-dem-insiders-rank-the-2020-contenders

sidd


Title: Re: Who should be the Democratic nominee for President in 2020?
Post by: pileus on December 02, 2017, 02:29:58 PM
I have voted straight Dem since 1988, but I would never cast a vote for Bernie Sanders.

Why not ?

I vote Democratic, he’s not a Democrat.  He was a destructive force in 2016 election, and he helped undermine Hillary Clinton and hand the presidency to Trump.  Many of his ideas are fantastical and vaporware, in other words not based in reality.  He doesn’t have the temperament to be potus.  He alienates core Dem constituencies.  Underlying all of that, he’s simply too advanced in age for the 2020 cycle.
Title: Re: Who should be the Democratic nominee for President in 2020?
Post by: pileus on December 02, 2017, 02:45:20 PM
I have a strong preference for a female candidate, I just don’t know if Warren can generate enthusiasm at a national level and overcome the ready made platform of attacks by the Trump/GOP crowd (lefty liberal from Mass, professorial, the disgusting “Pocahontas” label).  At 71 tho she would be a young contrast to some of the near octogenarians in consideration.

Any female candidate will need to deal with similar headwinds Hillary faced.  There is plenty of misogynist energy among the Leftist Bro crew that would be unleashed if their sainted candidate is unable to overcome the rigged process again.
Title: Re: Who should be the Democratic nominee for President in 2020?
Post by: pileus on December 10, 2017, 04:01:28 PM
This is an instructive 10 part tweet thread on the fraud that is Bernie Sanders.  Democrats would be wise to not fall for his nonsense.

https://mobile.twitter.com/i/status/939867982158876673

Since Sanders diehards are determined to hijack the @DNC and torpedo other 2020 contenders, and since he refuses to become a Democrat but wants to hog their spotlight and attack them, let's take a closer look at who this man is. (1/10)
Title: Re: Who should be the Democratic nominee for President in 2020?
Post by: jai mitchell on December 10, 2017, 04:42:42 PM
Peter Daou is a propagandist and none of his assertions are legitimate, none.

For example, the 1994 crime bill won his support because of the Assault Weapons Ban and the Violence Against Women provisions.  Compare that with Daou's later assertions that Bernie was in the pocket of the NRA.

https://berniesanders.com/press-release/sanders-voted-for-1994-crime-bill-to-support-assault-weapons-ban-violence-against-women-provisions/

It is pathetic that this clown asserts himself to be a 'progressive' when he is clearly a neoliberal establishment hack.
Title: Re: Who should be the Democratic nominee for President in 2020?
Post by: idunno on December 10, 2017, 04:50:34 PM
Since it's now been 2 days since anybody on the "Arctic Sea Ice Forum" had anything to say about "Arctic Sea Ice", I hope I can be forgiven for pointing out that I don't give a flying fuck about who is the democratic candidate in 2020?

For every 100 posts about US domestic politics here, surely the rest of the world is allowed one, occasionally, just to express regret that this forum, which was once an interesting source of information on an issue of international interest, in the present moment, and in the future, including 3 years hence - Arctic Sea Ice - is no longer covered here.

As for whether US domestic politics is covered well here.. Well, I personally prefer to rely on sites which have staffs with 600+ years of combined experience inside the beltway, multiple PhDs, lavish entertaiment budgets, and daily, hourly contacts with the major players.

Carry on, the rest of you, relying on Buddy's regular updates on why he cannot retune a television.

Meanwhile... IJIS. Severnaya I... (I forgot),j Chukchi, methane hydrate, wind off the ice thingy, has a name..., Does anybody reading this know whether ASI area today is low or high?

One day, a professional US political operator from, say, CAP, could visit this site. Is it useful to them to have to wade through 99 uninformed US political posts to reach the one actual factual scientific update

At present, AFAICT. this site has not reported any science WRT the Arctic Sea Ice for 48hours
Title: Re: Who should be the Democratic nominee for President in 2020?
Post by: budmantis on December 10, 2017, 05:08:33 PM
IDUNNO: I'm sure Neven will have something to add with regards to your post. Just so you're aware, I did ask Neven if political discussion had a place here in the Forum and he thought it did. Most or possibly even all of this discussion wouldn't be taking place here if it were not for Trump being the US president.

I don't think its fair for you to single out Buddy the way you have. If you don't like what he has to say, you can choose to ignore him.

BudM
Title: Re: Who should be the Democratic nominee for President in 2020?
Post by: Pmt111500 on December 10, 2017, 05:11:21 PM
Since it's now been 2 days since anybody on the "Arctic Sea Ice Forum" had anything to say about "Arctic Sea Ice", I hope I can be forgiven for pointing out that I don't give a flying fuck about who is the democratic candidate in 2020?

For every 100 posts about US domestic politics here, surely the rest of the world is allowed one, occasionally, just to express regret that this forum, which was once an interesting source of information on an issue of international interest, in the present moment, and in the future, including 3 years hence - Arctic Sea Ice - is no longer covered here.

As for whether US domestic politics is covered well here.. Well, I personally prefer to rely on sites which have staffs with 600+ years of combined experience inside the beltway, multiple PhDs, lavish entertaiment budgets, and daily, hourly contacts with the major players.

Carry on, the rest of you, relying on Buddy's regular updates on why he cannot retune a television.

Meanwhile... IJIS. Severnaya I... (I forgot),j Chukchi, methane hydrate, wind off the ice thingy, has a name..., Does anybody reading this know whether ASI area today is low or high?

One day, a professional US political operator from, say, CAP, could visit this site. Is it useful to them to have to wade through 99 uninformed US political posts to reach the one actual factual scientific update

At present, AFAICT. this site has not reported any science WRT the Arctic Sea Ice for 48hours

:-) , it's been fun to follow how the signal-to-noise ratio here has been developing. No wonder actual scientists have somewhat abandoned us. Soon someone starts claiming this is a political site, which it was not for quite a while.

https://www.wired.com/story/two-melting-glaciers-could-decide-the-fate-of-our-coastlines/

But let it go to record, my opinion of the next candidate in 2018 elections for the democratic prez of Trumpistan is... Oh, I don't give a flying fuck either.
Title: Re: Who should be the Democratic nominee for President in 2020?
Post by: wili on December 10, 2017, 08:34:57 PM
"One day, a professional US political operator from, say, CAP, could visit this site. Is it useful to them to have to wade through 99 uninformed US political posts to reach the one actual factual scientific update"

I'm sure they would be able to figure out how to find the relevant threads and just look at those, without having to 'wade through' anything irrelevant to that topic. Are you having trouble doing the same? 
Title: Re: Who should be the Democratic nominee for President in 2020?
Post by: Neven on December 10, 2017, 10:31:56 PM
All of these discussions take place in the Off-Topic category and The Rest sub-category. Besides, it's hibernation time, an there simply isn't all that much to say about Arctic sea ice that can't be said in the monthly PIOMAS updates on the ASIB.

That said, I also regret that the political discussions have taken this turn and that most people can't think beyond mainstream/establishment narratives. I'm sorry for partaking in them, but I too have frustrations I need to vent, and US politics is one of the subjects that have my interest (less so during the melting season, I promise ;) ).
Title: Re: Who should be the Democratic nominee for President in 2020?
Post by: Pmt111500 on December 11, 2017, 06:25:19 AM
All of these discussions take place in the Off-Topic category and The Rest sub-category. Besides, it's hibernation time, an there simply isn't all that much to say about Arctic sea ice that can't be said in the monthly PIOMAS updates on the ASIB.


Well, imho it's kind of on topic in 'Policy and Solutions' and 'Walking the Walk'-sections, but it¨'s too bad Trumpistan has decided to rather destroy the coasts than enter the discussions about possibly saving those. I find it destructive and highly depressing. Just lately I noticed I've not read a scientific article for half a year since I've been politically busy dissing everything 'american' (by the meaning some talk of the USA). I still do not understand why a narcisissitic liar should be allowed nuclear codes. :-[ :( :'(.
Title: Re: Who should be the Democratic nominee for President in 2020?
Post by: Paddy on December 11, 2017, 09:20:26 AM
This article may be of relevance here: https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/the-fix/wp/2017/09/08/the-top-15-possible-2020-democratic-nominees-ranked/

I'm a bit concerned regarding the age of some of the potential candidates. Jerry Brown, Bernie Sanders, and Joe Biden in particular.  The campaign trail is hard work, and the job itself still more so; it doesn't seem suitable for octogenarians. Plus all the made up stuff about Hillary's health in the last election could be only too easily recycled.

That said, I don't really know enough about most of the other candidates out there to really push for an alternative.
Title: Re: Who should be the Democratic nominee for President in 2020?
Post by: oren on December 11, 2017, 10:33:01 AM
I too dislike the political turn the forum has taken. Putting it OT is not enough. In the unread posts list which I use regularly, I need to wade through all the OT threads to get to the real stuff. And people here start hating each other over political issues, and bring it into the other threads, as it's one forum with one set of usernames. And worse of all, the posts in these threads are repetitive. I doubt anyone has changed his mind based on all these varying points of view. I keep seeing the same people always posting the same opinions. Totally useless.
Title: Re: Who should be the Democratic nominee for President in 2020?
Post by: wili on December 11, 2017, 02:27:14 PM
Paddy, can you quote relevant bits from the article. Some of us can't get WaPo without paying.

Oren, I hadn't noticed that phenomenon. I feel I can separate out political from scientific observations, usually.
Title: Re: Who should be the Democratic nominee for President in 2020?
Post by: Paddy on December 11, 2017, 02:36:28 PM
@Wili, the WP's top 10 were as follows (options 11 to 15 can likely be ignored):

10. Sen. Sherrod Brown (Ohio)

9. New York Gov. Andrew M. Cuomo

8. Sen. Cory Booker (N.J.)

7. Sen. Kamala D. Harris (Calif.)

6. Sen. Kirsten Gillibrand (N.Y.)

5. California Gov. Jerry Brown

4. Sen. Elizabeth Warren (Mass.)

3. Sen. Chris Murphy (Conn.)

2. Former vice president Joe Biden

1. Sen. Bernie Sanders (Vt.)

@Oren,

Fair point, and I hold myself partly responsible since I wrote the poll that turned into a monster thread on the Trump presidency. I generally stay off these threads most of the time myself.
Title: Re: Who should be the Democratic nominee for President in 2020?
Post by: colchonero on December 11, 2017, 02:40:52 PM
" And worse of all, the posts in these threads are repetitive. I doubt anyone has changed his mind based on all these varying points of view. I keep seeing the same people always posting the same opinions. Totally useless."


Exactly.Because there almost aren't any different points of view. There was a poll "who are you going to vote for in 2016 election" and it was like 30-1 for HRC. I think, I am the only conservative on the forum, (not huge Trump fan to be fair) I'm very interested in politics, but I never write anything, cause I know,  I'll get many replies(not to be misunderstood, I don't mean it because someone will not let me write or attack me on that, no, it's just some people would disagree with my comments, because they have different POV and I don't want to get into discussion.

In fact I'm not a real conservative or liberal, it's just that I'm open minded in the way I like to hear different views than decide what do I find it makes more sense. For example I believe climate change is real, I am pro choice, but I really don't like socialism, people being offended by anything (this happens especially in the media and on internet, cause in the real life it hasn't gone exactly that far). Political correctness has gone to far for me personally. I want small government, less regulations, lower taxes etc.

Enough about me. I really think that if this forum wants to have political discussions other side has to be present too. Cause this doesn't make much sense. Someone is blaming Trump on XY issue and trying to convince people on forum that he is an idiot, but they already think that, so there is no actual achievement.
Title: Re: Who should be the Democratic nominee for President in 2020?
Post by: Bruce Steele on December 12, 2017, 04:38:28 AM
Charles Barkley
 Now OT. Oren , I too wish we were talking about something else besides Politics.( although ) I try to serve my time on committees and commit to the small time due diligence of Democratic processes. I am conflicted. I think my time is required because I question anyone who drawn to power. Damage control means sitting through all the days of pointless meetings until the one day arrives when your efforts ( your opinion ) might make a difference. Politics
 I am reduced into efforts at subsistence. So much seems preposterous , the knowledge of climate change in the detail contain herein, the ridiculous processes of politics. How is it we bridge the huge divide?
 
 
Title: Re: Who should be the Democratic nominee for President in 2020?
Post by: Pmt111500 on December 13, 2017, 06:13:04 AM
I can't no more see a way to bridge the huge divide. Hence, I guess the extraordinary (for me) interest in politics. Maybe the side of those accepting science should just name their 'axis of evil' though it's a cheapo that will most certainly backfire (re:Al Gore plane)
Title: Re: Who should be the Democratic nominee for President in 2020?
Post by: Rob Dekker on December 13, 2017, 10:19:53 AM
And worse of all, the posts in these threads are repetitive. I doubt anyone has changed his mind based on all these varying points of view. I keep seeing the same people always posting the same opinions. Totally useless.

If we would all think alike then would it be more useful to have a discussion ?
Or would anyone change their mind ?

I think the political discussions on this forum are very helpful.
They tend to sharpen the mind, since they avoid "group think" and force to find out the facts more than any other topic of debate on this forum.

If we all agree with each other life would be rather dull.
Title: Re: Who should be the Democratic nominee for President in 2020?
Post by: pileus on December 21, 2017, 03:38:18 PM
Peter Daou is a propagandist and none of his assertions are legitimate, none.

For example, the 1994 crime bill won his support because of the Assault Weapons Ban and the Violence Against Women provisions.  Compare that with Daou's later assertions that Bernie was in the pocket of the NRA.

https://berniesanders.com/press-release/sanders-voted-for-1994-crime-bill-to-support-assault-weapons-ban-violence-against-women-provisions/

It is pathetic that this clown asserts himself to be a 'progressive' when he is clearly a neoliberal establishment hack.

“neoliberal,” the second most favorite conjuring term here after Corporate Democrat. 

The blind allegiance to Bernie by some is not very different than what is going on with Trump's core base.  Massive blind spots and a reflexive refusal to consider his flaws and weaknesses.

Bernie is a fraud and a phony.

Title: Re: Who should be the Democratic nominee for President in 2020?
Post by: TerryM on December 21, 2017, 04:01:11 PM
What an odd poll question, as matched by the odd responses.
Terry


Title: Re: Who should be the Democratic nominee for President in 2020?
Post by: sidd on January 30, 2018, 12:16:37 AM
Someone thinks Bernie will run in 2020 ... as a Democrat.

https://medium.com/@nikohouse/no-bernie-2020-will-not-be-the-same-as-2016-cd0dddde481a

Dunno if i agree. Bernie is getting old.

sidd
Title: Re: Who should be the Democratic nominee for President in 2020?
Post by: sidd on September 12, 2018, 11:37:50 PM
Let's hear it: Dimon in 2020

" I mean, I've said this before Trump was elected. You're not going to get a wealthy New Yorker elected president. Boy I was dead wrong. "

So here's Dimon making another prediction:

"I think I could beat Trump."

Why buy the king when you can be the king ?

https://www.cnbc.com/2018/09/12/jamie-dimon-says-he-could-beat-trump-in-an-election.html

sidd
Title: Re: Who should be the Democratic nominee for President in 2020?
Post by: mostly_lurking on September 14, 2018, 11:21:08 AM
She has fallen off the radar for quite a while. This would be a great idea!  Progressive, woman and a  vet... and I love her voice   8)

Title: Re: Who should be the Democratic nominee for President in 2020?
Post by: jacksmith4tx on September 14, 2018, 04:16:12 PM
and a  vet
I personally don't care for ex-military politicians. Too easy for them to fall back to 'military solutions' that justify huge defense budgets.

I nominate Beto O'Rourke. He's got Willie Nelson doing a benefit concert (his first ever for a politician!) for him in Austin on Sep. 29th.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beto_O%27Rourke
Title: Re: Who should be the Democratic nominee for President in 2020?
Post by: TerryM on September 15, 2018, 09:01:00 AM
Tulsi calls America's interference in Syria a "Betrayal of the American People"

She previously had called out Obama for the same thing.

Americans elected the last Presidential candidate who called for peace with Syria and Russia.
Who know, perhaps it will work this time round?

https://www.zerohedge.com/news/2018-09-13/tulsi-gabbard-house-floor-slams-betrayal-american-people-after-911-over-syria

Terry
Title: Re: Who should be the Democratic nominee for President in 2020?
Post by: sidd on September 27, 2018, 03:08:31 AM
Here's an oddball:

https://www.politico.com/story/2018/09/26/hickenlooper-colorado-2020-democrats-842596

sidd
Title: Re: Who should be the Democratic nominee for President in 2020?
Post by: SteveMDFP on September 27, 2018, 05:32:44 PM
Here's an oddball:

https://www.politico.com/story/2018/09/26/hickenlooper-colorado-2020-democrats-842596

sidd

I think Dems could do a lot worse.  He's soft on fracking, but fracking will need to die from low oil prices anyway.  He could do well in the general election--Americans tend to prefer governors over senators.

The article acknowledges that his great hurdle will be in the primaries, not having a strong profile to suit the Democratic base. 

Thus, he's a prime choice to be VP.  Let him marinate in that post for 4-8 years, and he could then be a very good Presidential candidate, if he keeps a strong profile over those years.
Title: Re: Who should be the Democratic nominee for President in 2020?
Post by: litesong on September 30, 2018, 04:34:00 AM
In close assessments, the following candidates & reasons to elect, in any order democrats may want:
Senator Cory Booker (Has relations with both repubs & dems, constructing legislation with best chances of passage; Clarence Thomas bad-mouths him)
Joy Reid (Comprehensive knowledge & exceedingly fine ability to concisely present information; Knows how to counter re-pubic-lick-un flapjaw)
Rachael Maddow (Wide grasp of political backwaters; Has connections, unbeknownst to other journalists (& most politicians, too); First with details to "don'T rump" treasonous white-washing of russian stolen & illegal assets)
Lawrence O'Donnell (First to be attacked by "don'T rump"; Has politically eviscerated politicians so quickly, they are still standing, but dead)
///////
Of the above who would be president, the others would be powerful vice-presidents & members of the Cabinet.
Title: Re: Who should be the Democratic nominee for President in 2020?
Post by: sidd on October 01, 2018, 05:25:02 AM
Democratic candidate Avenatti ? Well, if Trump could win ...

https://www.politico.com/story/2018/08/10/michael-avenatti-presidential-run-iowa-2020-771291
https://www.mediaite.com/print/michael-avenatti-exploring-presidential-run/

I suggest Stormy Daniels for vice. What could go wrong ?

sidd
Title: Re: Who should be the Democratic nominee for President in 2020?
Post by: SteveMDFP on October 01, 2018, 09:36:58 AM


I suggest Stormy Daniels for vice. What could go wrong ?

sidd

Well, she does have good positions.
;-)
Title: Re: Who should be the Democratic nominee for President in 2020?
Post by: TerryM on October 01, 2018, 10:07:59 AM


I suggest Stormy Daniels for vice. What could go wrong ?

sidd

Well, she does have good positions.
;-)
And an intimate understanding of vice.
Terry 8)
Title: Re: Who should be the Democratic nominee for President in 2020?
Post by: sidd on October 02, 2018, 11:38:03 PM
Biden leads in Iowa, 37% of respondents, N=500 likely caucus attendees.

"16 percent backed Sen. Elizabeth Warren, 12 percent supported Sen. Bernie Sanders, 10 percent picked Sen. Kamala Harris and Sen. Cory Booker received support from 8 percent."

Sherrod Brown not on the list.

https://www.politico.com/story/2018/10/01/poll-biden-leads-iowa-democrats-854872

Full poll results:

https://www.politico.com/f/?id=00000166-30b4-d5d9-ab67-fef45d120000

If Biden is the nominee, it would reveal that the Democratic party has learned nothing from 2016. And a recipe for low turnout.

sidd


Title: Re: Who should be the Democratic nominee for President in 2020?
Post by: TerryM on October 03, 2018, 02:19:05 AM
Biden leads in Iowa, 37% of respondents, N=500 likely caucus attendees.

If Biden is the nominee, it would reveal that the Democratic party has learned nothing from 2016. And a recipe for low turnout.

sidd
I'm seeing no indication that the DNC, or the DCCC have learned a damn thing. The wrong candidates braying the wrong message, because it worked so well in the past?


"Hope & Change" at least won elections. "Your voters are Deplorable Dregs" wins enemies for life.


Screeching that the loyal opposition appoints rapists, and that those who support him sanction these activities might cause more than a few to take umbrage. One of the places they'll take their umbrage is to the voting booth. ::)

Terry
Title: Re: Who should be the Democratic nominee for President in 2020?
Post by: sidd on November 13, 2018, 12:50:58 AM
Now here's an outsider: Ojeda

“The reason why the Democratic Party fell from grace is because they become nothing more than elitist. That was it. Goldman Sachs, that’s who they were. The Democratic Party is supposed to be the party that fights for the working class, and that’s exactly what I do. I will stand with unions wholeheartedly, and that’s the problem: the Democratic Party wants to say that, but their actions do not mirror that.”

"Members of Congress, he proposes, should be required to donate their net wealth above a certain threshold — Ojeda puts it at a million dollars — to discourage using public office for private gain. In return, retired members of Congress would get a pension of $130,000 a year and be able to earn additional income to reach $250,000. Anything above that would be donated."

“When you get into politics, that’s supposed to be a life of service, but that’s not what it’s been. You know, a person goes into politics, they win a seat in Congress or the Senate, and it’s a $174,000 [salary], but yet two years later, they’re worth $30 million, and that’s one of the problems that we have in society today. That’s how come no one trusts — or has very much respect for — politicians,”

Heeheehee. I like him already.

https://theintercept.com/2018/11/11/richard-ojeda-2020-president/

sidd
Title: Re: Who should be the Democratic nominee for President in 2020?
Post by: sidd on November 14, 2018, 06:30:36 AM
No surprise, Sherrod Brown is considering a bid:

https://www.cleveland.com/metro/index.ssf/2018/11/sen_sherrod_brown_of_ohio_is_w.html

https://www.dispatch.com/news/20181112/sherrod-brown-for-president-hes-thinking-about-it

Might be three from Ahia: Tim Ryan (D) and John Kasich (R) are thinking about it too.

sidd
Title: Re: Who should be the Democratic nominee for President in 2020?
Post by: Klondike Kat on November 14, 2018, 02:21:35 PM
Biden leads in Iowa, 37% of respondents, N=500 likely caucus attendees.

"16 percent backed Sen. Elizabeth Warren, 12 percent supported Sen. Bernie Sanders, 10 percent picked Sen. Kamala Harris and Sen. Cory Booker received support from 8 percent."

Sherrod Brown not on the list.

https://www.politico.com/story/2018/10/01/poll-biden-leads-iowa-democrats-854872

Full poll results:

https://www.politico.com/f/?id=00000166-30b4-d5d9-ab67-fef45d120000

If Biden is the nominee, it would reveal that the Democratic party has learned nothing from 2016. And a recipe for low turnout.

sidd

I wouldn't go that far.  After two tries, they will have learned that they cannot win with Clinton.
Title: Re: Who should be the Democratic nominee for President in 2020?
Post by: sidd on November 14, 2018, 10:08:39 PM
America's Finest News Source: A Hundred Million Or Me

"Hillary Clinton told reporters she is launching a campaign Tuesday that will raise $100 million by the end of the year or else she will run for president."

"At press time, sources confirmed Clinton had raised $17.6 billion in the first 45 seconds of the campaign."

https://politics.theonion.com/hillary-launches-campaign-to-raise-100-million-or-else-1830416470

sidd
Title: Re: Who should be the Democratic nominee for President in 2020?
Post by: sidd on November 22, 2018, 05:39:32 AM
Ooo, another billionaire. Steyer looks like he'll jump in too.

https://www.latimes.com/politics/la-pol-ca-steyer-20181120-story.html

sidd
 
Title: Re: Who should be the Democratic nominee for President in 2020?
Post by: sidd on January 01, 2019, 02:31:08 AM
Warren in:

https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/sen-elizabeth-warren-says-she-will-seek-the-presidency-in-2020/2018/12/31/1b0ae010-022f-11e9-b5df-5d3874f1ac36_story.html

sidd
Title: Re: Who should be the Democratic nominee for President in 2020?
Post by: sidd on January 12, 2019, 06:10:40 AM
Gabbard in:

https://www.cnn.com/2019/01/11/politics/tulsi-gabbard-van-jones/index.html

sidd
Title: Re: Who should be the Democratic nominee for President in 2020?
Post by: TerryM on January 12, 2019, 06:59:05 AM
Gabbard in:

https://www.cnn.com/2019/01/11/politics/tulsi-gabbard-van-jones/index.html (https://www.cnn.com/2019/01/11/politics/tulsi-gabbard-van-jones/index.html)

sidd


Can Tulsi, as a pacifist survive the DNC? If so she might be able to win a general election.
Terry
Title: Re: Who should be the Democratic nominee for President in 2020?
Post by: sidd on January 12, 2019, 10:20:13 PM
Castro in:

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-46852034

sidd
Title: Re: Who should be the Democratic nominee for President in 2020?
Post by: sidd on January 16, 2019, 09:57:10 PM
Gillibrand in:

https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/sen-kirsten-gillibrand-tells-stephen-colbert-she-will-run-for-president/2019/01/15/5de9103e-0eb2-11e9-8938-5898adc28fa2_story.html

sidd
Title: Re: Who should be the Democratic nominee for President in 2020?
Post by: Rob Dekker on January 18, 2019, 08:04:09 AM

https://www.facebook.com/CREDO/videos/10158154583395968/

Michelle Obama for president !
Title: Re: Who should be the Democratic nominee for President in 2020?
Post by: Neven on January 18, 2019, 10:49:29 AM
Are you sure you don't want Oprah Winfrey, Whoopi or The Rock, or some other out-of-touch millionaire?

Or maybe just this guy:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sGUNPMPrxvA
Title: Re: Who should be the Democratic nominee for President in 2020?
Post by: Pmt111500 on January 18, 2019, 12:57:11 PM
Some fellow who pays for a wall between Ireland and GB  ;D :D ;D
Title: Re: Who should be the Democratic nominee for President in 2020?
Post by: be cause on January 19, 2019, 02:09:27 AM
Some fellow who pays for a wall between Ireland and GB  ;D :D ;D

living as I do less than a mile from the Irish border in what was known as the murder triangle .. I prefer no walls at all at all  ;)
Title: Re: Who should be the Democratic nominee for President in 2020?
Post by: sidd on January 19, 2019, 05:58:04 AM
Taibbi at rollingstone last month: Bernie should run

"What’s both maddening and endearing about him as a politician is that he never changes"

"reporters constantly make the mistake of thinking politicians are causes, not effects."

"he’s constitutionally incapable of deviating from his platform. I don’t even think Sanders would know how to betray his own ideas for political gain."

"Sanders is no Lenin or Trotsky. He doesn’t want to overthrow free enterprise or establish a national ice cream. But the movement he and his wife are leading has goals that are genuinely threatening to the traditional funders of presidential campaigns of both parties in America"

"IN THE mid-2000s, then-congressman Sanders invited me to tag along to work in the House ... I found him odd at first. Sanders almost never asked to go off the record, and he seemed so indifferent to how some of his more blunt observations about his workplace might play in print that I wondered at first if there might be something wrong with him."

"It took a while to realize that Sanders simply is who he appears to be. There’s no second-level calculation there, no chilled-out off-duty version who stops babbling about public heating oil programs or VA coverage once you turn off the recorder."

"he currently polls better with nonwhite voters than white ones"

"Someone has to take up those fights eventually. "

Read the whole thing:

https://www.rollingstone.com/politics/politics-features/yes-bernie-should-run-771260/

Personally, i'm not so sure. Mebbe someone younger can step up to inherit the mantle. But i see Taibbi's point, Sanders is proven to be unswerving, and that's something we can say of very few others.

sidd
Title: Re: Who should be the Democratic nominee for President in 2020?
Post by: Pmt111500 on January 19, 2019, 03:04:26 PM
Some fellow who pays for a wall between Ireland and GB  ;D :D ;D

living as I do less than a mile from the Irish border in what was known as the murder triangle .. I prefer no walls at all at all  ;)
Well GB might sell Northern Ireland to Ireland but I guess this is not on the conservative agenda.
Title: Re: Who should be the Democratic nominee for President in 2020?
Post by: sidd on January 21, 2019, 07:13:44 PM
Harris in:

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-46947839

sidd
Title: Re: Who should be the Democratic nominee for President in 2020?
Post by: sidd on January 23, 2019, 10:26:23 PM
Buttigieg in:

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-46970207

sidd
Title: Re: Who should be the Democratic nominee for President in 2020?
Post by: sidd on January 26, 2019, 09:22:24 PM
Ojeda out:

https://www.thedailybeast.com/richard-ojeda-becomes-first-2020-democrat-to-drop-out-of-race

sidd
Title: Re: Who should be the Democratic nominee for President in 2020?
Post by: sidd on February 01, 2019, 09:31:14 PM
Booker in:

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-46958829

America's Finest News Source has more:

https://politics.theonion.com/cory-booker-apologizes-to-wall-street-bankers-for-the-m-1832268385

sidd
Title: Re: Who should be the Democratic nominee for President in 2020?
Post by: b_lumenkraft on February 18, 2019, 08:31:48 PM
This one is kind of remarkable!

Quote
...[he] slammed his daughter for stereotyping her heritage for political gain!

Kamala's Father Slams Her - "I wish to separate us from this travesty"
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TMHQa8mL5x4&feature=youtu.be
Title: Re: Who should be the Democratic nominee for President in 2020?
Post by: b_lumenkraft on February 19, 2019, 07:26:22 AM
Kamala Harris Packed California Prisons With Pot Peddlers
Quote
At least 1,560 people were sent to state prisons for marijuana-related offenses between 2011 and 2016

Link >> https://freebeacon.com/politics/kamala-harris-packed-california-prisons-for-peddling-pot/


She is, through and through, a hypocrite and misanthrope. Just like corporate America likes it.

So i guess she will win the primaries via super-delegates and then she will lose against the hypocritic misanthrope in chief.
Title: Re: Who should be the Democratic nominee for President in 2020?
Post by: b_lumenkraft on February 19, 2019, 02:01:12 PM
✧ʕ̢̣̣̣̣̩̩̩̩·͡˔·ོɁ̡̣̣̣̣̩̩̩̩✧ woooooohooooooo
 BREAKING: Bernie Sanders OFFICIALLY ANNOUNCES FOR 2020!! Former Campaign Member Weighs In
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m7tiR9XTvCU
Title: Re: Who should be the Democratic nominee for President in 2020?
Post by: b_lumenkraft on February 19, 2019, 04:48:43 PM
Bernie Sanders’s 2020 policy agenda: Medicare for All; action on climate change; $15 an hour minimum wage

Link >> https://www.washingtonpost.com/us-policy/2019/02/19/bernie-sanderss-policy-agenda-medicare-all-action-climate-change-an-hour-minimum-wage/?utm_term=.cd0256c8c439
Title: Re: Who should be the Democratic nominee for President in 2020?
Post by: b_lumenkraft on February 20, 2019, 08:26:15 AM
Bernie Sanders' Campaign Says He Raised $4 Million in Half a Day

Quote
(WASHINGTON) — Bernie Sanders’ campaign says he has raised more than $4 million in the 12 hours since announcing his 2020 presidential campaign.

The Vermont senator said Tuesday that nearly 150,000 individuals had contributed to his Democratic bid.

Previously, the biggest first-day fundraiser in the race had been California Sen. Kamala Harris, who raised $1.5 million in the first 24 hours of her campaign.

Link >> http://time.com/5533134/bernie-sanders-2020-4-million-raised/
Title: Re: Who should be the Democratic nominee for President in 2020?
Post by: Rob Dekker on February 20, 2019, 11:45:01 AM
In his 2016 campaign, Sanders’s primary focus was on domestic economic issues, and many critics regarded him as a lightweight on foreign policy. This time around, Sanders has won over skeptics in the foreign-policy establishment with substantive speeches in 2017 and 2018, laying out a comprehensive vision for America’s role in the world. Beyond wanting to end or prevent wars in the Middle East, Sanders has also linked the global rise of authoritarian populism to wealth inequality, and has called for an international progressive movement to combat authoritarian leaders and kleptocrats from Russia to Brazil. And while Duss doesn’t want to take credit for what he says are his boss’s deeply held views, he has had a hand in all of this.

https://www.thenation.com/article/matt-duss-bernie-sanders-foreign-policy-blob/
Title: Re: Who should be the Democratic nominee for President in 2020?
Post by: sidd on February 21, 2019, 06:50:41 AM
I just realized the best thing that joe biden could do for bernie would be to announce his candidacy. Expose the contradictions, so to speak.

sidd
Title: Re: Who should be the Democratic nominee for President in 2020?
Post by: interstitial on February 21, 2019, 03:20:36 PM
Quote
an international progressive movement to combat authoritarian leaders and kleptocrats

"Make America a Democracy Again!"

I wish the USA was a democracy again! Over one billions dollars spent for each presidential candidate. The system is broken any candidate who is able to raise that kind of money has been bought off by a corrupted system.
Title: Re: Who should be the Democratic nominee for President in 2020?
Post by: wili on February 21, 2019, 03:57:15 PM
As long as there is both an obscenely enormous gap between the haves and the haven'ts, and as long as Citizens United stands, there is no chance we will have anything like a real democracy. Even then, there will be lots of class, race, gender, and other structural impediments to gaining democracy.
Title: Re: Who should be the Democratic nominee for President in 2020?
Post by: b_lumenkraft on February 21, 2019, 04:45:02 PM
So we all agree to have a constitutional reform in Bernies 5th year of presidency?  8)

Title: Re: Who should be the Democratic nominee for President in 2020?
Post by: b_lumenkraft on February 22, 2019, 06:16:18 PM
Killer Mike: "In the last few years of his life, ... his [MLKs] stance ... was anti-war, focused on eradicating poverty, and uplifted workers' rights and the restoration of basic humanity. No other presidential candidate has ever had an agenda matching Dr King's agenda more than Bernie Sanders. ... So my support of Bernie isn't about personality or politics, but the agenda."
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gydtjjZHYBE
Title: Re: Who should be the Democratic nominee for President in 2020?
Post by: b_lumenkraft on February 23, 2019, 08:47:43 AM
Well there ya go .... a nice find.

Thank you Lurk. Thought so too!

Quote
Can we find two?

On it! ;)
Title: Re: Who should be the Democratic nominee for President in 2020?
Post by: b_lumenkraft on February 23, 2019, 12:50:43 PM
Bernie Sanders(1988): "The real issue in this country...is Class. I think we could have a Black or Woman president, if they were on the side of corporations and money, rather than workers and the poor."

This is some consistency right there.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MnmieZa0jnk

Title: Re: Who should be the Democratic nominee for President in 2020?
Post by: b_lumenkraft on February 25, 2019, 06:24:59 PM
Well well well! :)

Title: Re: Who should be the Democratic nominee for President in 2020?
Post by: b_lumenkraft on February 26, 2019, 08:30:34 AM
Yeah, that's right!

I love my US postal service and the highways and i totally think billionaires should pay more taxes. I just love to stay healthy from breathing good air. Of course, i think healthcare is a human right. I really want a better future for my kids, who wouldn't, right?

But I JUST HATE SOCIALISM! What's so hard to understand?
Title: Re: Who should be the Democratic nominee for President in 2020?
Post by: Rob Dekker on February 27, 2019, 08:37:11 AM
There have been some who have promoted Tulsi Gabbard for president, since she is supposedly progressive and anti-war.

Yet neither of that is true.

Before you vote Tulsi Gabbard for president, you want to read this article :

https://arcdigital.media/tulsi-gabbard-is-not-anti-war-660e7d1e4ce1

Quote
Since she announced her candidacy, Gabbard has appeared regularly on television to cycle through her talking points, many of which sound strikingly familiar to those Trump offered up on the campaign trail in 2016.

She also has the vote of David Duke :
https://www.motherjones.com/politics/2019/02/david-duke-tulsi-gabbard/

And if you are willing to spend some time, here is a very long thread on Tulsi Gabbard's "progressive" (in reality, far right) beliefs, voting record, advocacy, and actions. 
Worth your time to go through this. :

https://twitter.com/pplswar/status/830210812119744512
Title: Re: Who should be the Democratic nominee for President in 2020?
Post by: Neven on February 27, 2019, 03:50:34 PM
There have been some who have promoted Tulsi Gabbard for president, since she is supposedly progressive and anti-war.

Yet neither of that is true.

Before you vote Tulsi Gabbard for president, you want to read this article :

https://arcdigital.media/tulsi-gabbard-is-not-anti-war-660e7d1e4ce1

Quote
Since she announced her candidacy, Gabbard has appeared regularly on television to cycle through her talking points, many of which sound strikingly familiar to those Trump offered up on the campaign trail in 2016.

She also has the vote of David Duke :
https://www.motherjones.com/politics/2019/02/david-duke-tulsi-gabbard/

And if you are willing to spend some time, here is a very long thread on Tulsi Gabbard's "progressive" (in reality, far right) beliefs, voting record, advocacy, and actions. 
Worth your time to go through this. :

https://twitter.com/pplswar/status/830210812119744512

That David Duke stuff is just a corporatist smear, the Twitter feed is somewhat more interesting,
though very slanted as well.

I've read the article, and although it contains lots of circular propaganda, I admit that I'm not entirely certain that Gabbard, like Trump and Obama, would follow through on her promises once elected. Especially when it comes to the war machine. It's not for nothing that the Democratic Party is heavily promoting the election of former military and intelligence personnel to Congress, and that was obviously Gabbard's way in.

Still, she has seen war up close, like few people here have, so who knows, maybe she's genuinely progressive. Her stances on health care, etc, definitely are. She also renounced her DNC position to support Sanders, instead of cheating him, like the rest did.

So, Gabbard is still number two for me if I could vote, after Sanders. She's better and more progressive than all the others on the list, with the exception perhaps of Warren (who toes the corrupt party line too much for my taste).
Title: Re: Who should be the Democratic nominee for President in 2020?
Post by: Rob Dekker on February 28, 2019, 09:52:11 AM
...
So, Gabbard is still number two for me if I could vote, after Sanders. She's better and more progressive than all the others on the list, with the exception perhaps of Warren (who toes the corrupt party line too much for my taste).

No, Neven. She really is NOT more progressive than all the others on the list.

She is at position 157 on the list right now and obtained a solid "F" :

http://www.progressivepunch.org/scores.htm?house=house

That's DOWN from position 133 last year :

(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DgTkJ2rWsAA-GjU.jpg)

She is NOT progressive. I don't understand why you keep on insisting she is, in spite of all the evidence to the contrary.
Title: Re: Who should be the Democratic nominee for President in 2020?
Post by: Neven on February 28, 2019, 10:56:26 AM
AFAICT and IMO, she is more progressive than everyone else on the list of presidential candidates as per the poll, with the exception of Sanders and Warren. But again, I'm not sure she really means what she says and whether she'll be a fake liar, like Trump, Obama and the Clintons (whereas with Booker, Harris, Biden, Gillibrand, O#Rourke, etc I'm 100% sure, because they are all Corporate Democrats who hope to be rewarded with fame and fortune if they do the bidding of concentrated wealth).

BTW, if she is as non-progressive as you say she is, Rob, she sounds like the perfect candidate for those 'liberals' who think McCain is a hero and George Bush isn't a war criminal. But without a cue from mainstream establishment media they won't change their minds. If that happens and mainstream media starts praising her and heaping loads of free airtime on her, I'll be sure that she's also fake.
Title: Re: Who should be the Democratic nominee for President in 2020?
Post by: Neven on February 28, 2019, 11:45:21 AM
Why is that list important to you Rob to rely on?

Facts! Science!
Title: Re: Who should be the Democratic nominee for President in 2020?
Post by: Rob Dekker on March 01, 2019, 03:36:26 AM


Why is that list important to you Rob to rely on?

eg in the Lifetime Overall scores @ 174th is Ocasio-Cortez, Alexandria

She's behind Gabbard, Tulsi at 152nd , 151 Schiff, Adam, as well as Pelosi at 102nd.

I don't think people will use it before they are walking into the polling booth to vote - at least I hope not.

So you found a machine, you turn a few knobs, and then remark that the whole thing is out of balance, so nobody should use it.

I really hope you are not an engineer or a mechanic. ;)

Why not start with the weighted score that progressivepunch.org uses themselves :
 Ocasio-Cortez, Alexandria 1st place
 Pelosi, Nancy 47th
 Schiff, Adam, 122nd
 Gabbard, Tulsi, 155th

Tulsi Gabbard dropped so low because she voted AGAINST progressive causes for bills that were clearly progressive. That's because she is NOT a progressive candidate.

Govtrack puts her in the middle of the pack. Almost Republican :

(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/C-HTV7uWsAEjxAO.jpg)
Title: Re: Who should be the Democratic nominee for President in 2020?
Post by: sidd on March 01, 2019, 10:20:23 PM
Inslee in:

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-47418955

sidd
Title: Re: Who should be the Democratic nominee for President in 2020?
Post by: sidd on March 04, 2019, 11:59:18 PM
getting crowded on this bus: Hickenlooper in

https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/politics/elections/2019/03/04/2020-election-former-colorado-governor-john-hickenlooper-joins-democratic-field/3053038002/

sidd
Title: Re: Who should be the Democratic nominee for President in 2020?
Post by: Tor Bejnar on March 05, 2019, 01:44:23 PM
I was suitably impressed by Washington (state) Governor Jay Inslee (https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/politics/gov-inslee-climate-change-is-a-true-national-emergency/vi-BBUnARd) in his interview (and Rachel Maddow's background talk beforehand).  My co-worker this morning said to me, "I know who your candidate it for President … a one-issue guy … and it's your issue." 
Title: Re: Who should be the Democratic nominee for President in 2020?
Post by: b_lumenkraft on March 21, 2019, 07:39:25 AM
4 New Democratic Primary Polls! March 2019 - Democratic Presidential Candidates 2020 Frontrunners

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RcYwnKV9Vbw
Title: Re: Who should be the Democratic nominee for President in 2020?
Post by: b_lumenkraft on March 21, 2019, 07:48:02 AM
TL;DR: According to Rasmussen only Biden and Sanders can beat Trump. Emerson sees Biden and Sanders head to head.

Good to know: CNN can't be trusted since they only poll people older than 49 as if they had an agenda which is not informing people correctly.
Title: Re: Who should be the Democratic nominee for President in 2020?
Post by: Klondike Kat on March 21, 2019, 04:29:59 PM
Emerson shows that only Biden is ahead of Trump.  Everyone else is within the polling margin of error.
Title: Re: Who should be the Democratic nominee for President in 2020?
Post by: b_lumenkraft on March 21, 2019, 05:30:42 PM
Beto O’Rourke Removed From ‘No Fossil Fuel Money Pledge’ Following Sludge Report

Quote
Texas Democratic Rep. Beto O’Rourke has been removed from a pledge he signed to reject large donations from fossil fuel PACs and executives, following a recent Sludge investigation of federal campaign finance records.
Link >> https://readsludge.com/2018/12/18/beto-orourke-removed-from-no-fossil-fuel-money-pledge-following-sludge-report/
Title: Re: Who should be the Democratic nominee for President in 2020?
Post by: sidd on March 22, 2019, 06:48:41 AM
Gravel in ? Makes Bernie look like a young 'un.

https://www.rollingstone.com/politics/politics-news/gravel-2020-810542/

sidd
Title: Re: Who should be the Democratic nominee for President in 2020?
Post by: b_lumenkraft on March 23, 2019, 07:11:13 PM
Bernie Decimates Multiple Trump Lies In Epic Video

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9p31l7ejXeo
Title: Re: Who should be the Democratic nominee for President in 2020?
Post by: Rob Dekker on March 30, 2019, 09:44:00 AM
Bernie Decimates Multiple Trump Lies In Epic Video

+1. Thank you. Great summary !
Title: Re: Who should be the Democratic nominee for President in 2020?
Post by: b_lumenkraft on March 30, 2019, 12:04:58 PM
Welcome, Rob. :)

I take it Bernie is your favourite candidate too?
Title: Re: Who should be the Democratic nominee for President in 2020?
Post by: sidd on April 03, 2019, 08:47:04 PM
America's Finest News Source: Bernie for Change

" anyone who hands me a dollar bill will immediately be handed 73 cents in change "

https://politics.theonion.com/increasingly-cocky-bernie-sanders-announces-he-won-t-ta-1833749650

sidd
Title: Re: Who should be the Democratic nominee for President in 2020?
Post by: b_lumenkraft on April 04, 2019, 04:22:43 PM
Jake Tapper Acknowledges 'Bernie 2020' Reality

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nX8QUD6echU
Title: Re: Who should be the Democratic nominee for President in 2020?
Post by: b_lumenkraft on April 04, 2019, 07:55:10 PM
Bernie Sanders Is the Frontrunner. Obviously. He leads the declared candidates in the polls, and he's dominating in fundraising. So why is he being ignored?

Quote
The root of Sanders’s appeal, as Hunt points out, is his performance during the 2016 primary. He won 23 primaries, receiving more votes from people under the age of 30 than Clinton and Donald Trump combined. Some have argued, convincingly, that he won by losing: He not only pushed the Clinton campaign to the left; he pushed the Democratic Party to the left.
Link >> https://newrepublic.com/article/153462/bernie-sanders-frontrunner-obviously
Title: Re: Who should be the Democratic nominee for President in 2020?
Post by: sidd on April 05, 2019, 08:58:36 PM
Ryan in:

https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/2020-election/ohio-rep-tim-ryan-throws-his-name-growing-2020-field-n990841

don't think he has a chance. Sherrod Brown looked at it and didnt jump, for good reason.

sidd
Title: Re: Who should be the Democratic nominee for President in 2020?
Post by: sidd on April 09, 2019, 09:16:11 PM
Gonna need a bigger bus: Swalwell in

https://www.cbsnews.com/amp/news/eric-swalwell-2020-california-congressman-tells-stephen-colbert-hes-running-for-president/

sidd
Title: Re: Who should be the Democratic nominee for President in 2020?
Post by: bbr2314 on April 09, 2019, 09:32:08 PM
I am noticing Buttigieg's support seems to be growing in a substantial way. I don't hate him but I don't love him. I think he will drift toward the center if he wins the primaries. He is the only candidate I am seeing mentioned on my friends' social media, in much the same way Bernie and Hillary were.
Title: Re: Who should be the Democratic nominee for President in 2020?
Post by: b_lumenkraft on April 09, 2019, 09:47:03 PM
The Truth About Pete Buttigieg 'Hype'

"What are your policies?"

"What he is doing is reflect on you what you want to hear."

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4zDzngcAZdE
Title: Re: Who should be the Democratic nominee for President in 2020?
Post by: bbr2314 on April 09, 2019, 09:56:47 PM
The Truth About Pete Buttigieg 'Hype'

"What are your policies?"

"What he is doing is reflect on you what you want to hear."

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4zDzngcAZdE
Bernie stands no chance despite what you may believe, I would say sorry but I'm not, :(
Title: Re: Who should be the Democratic nominee for President in 2020?
Post by: b_lumenkraft on April 09, 2019, 10:20:04 PM
How do you come to this conclusion bbr2314?

I'm asking because polls paint a different picture:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CKhecpFA9Fs
Title: Re: Who should be the Democratic nominee for President in 2020?
Post by: sidd on April 10, 2019, 06:45:13 AM
I think i mentioned that Gravel has tossed his hat in the ring. For those who don't know, or don't remember:

[wikipedia]

" on June 13, 1971, The New York Times began printing large portions of the Pentagon Papers ... a large collection of secret government documents and studies pertaining to the Vietnam War, of which former Defense Department analyst Daniel Ellsberg had made unauthorized copies and was determined to make public.[71] Ellsberg had for a year and a half approached members of Congress – such as William Fulbright, George McGovern, Charles Mathias, and Pete McCloskey – about publishing the documents, on the grounds that the Speech or Debate Clause of the Constitution would give congressional members immunity from prosecution, but all had refused.[72] Instead, Ellsberg gave the documents to the Times. "

" a federal court injunction halted publication in The Times; The Washington Post and several other newspapers began publishing parts of the documents, with some of them also being halted by injunctions ..."

"Ellsberg returned to his idea of having a member of Congress read them, and chose Gravel based on the latter's efforts against the draft;[7] Gravel agreed where previously others had not. "

"Gravel attempted to read the papers on the floor of the Senate as part of his filibuster against the draft, but was thwarted when no quorum could be formed.[75] Gravel instead convened a session of the Buildings and Grounds subcommittee that he chaired.[75] He got New York Congressman John Dow to testify that the war had soaked up funding for public buildings, thus making discussion of the war relevant to the committee.[76] He began reading from the papers with the press in attendance,[75] omitting supporting documents that he felt might compromise national security ..."

"He read until 1 a.m., until with tears and sobs he said that he could no longer physically continue ... Gravel ended the session by, with no other senators present, establishing unanimous consent[76] to insert 4,100 pages of the Papers into the Congressional Record of his subcommittee ... "

"this four-volume, relatively expensive set[78] became the "Senator Gravel Edition", which studies from Cornell University and the Annenberg Center for Communication have labeled as the most complete edition of the Pentagon Papers to be published"

That guy has more guts than any legislator today. If there were more like him, the torture report would be in the congressional records, and much more. Can you even imagine someone like Feinstein or Schumer doing anything remotely like this ? We have craven cowards, when we need lions.

https://www.mikegravel.org/issues/

sidd

Title: Re: Who should be the Democratic nominee for President in 2020?
Post by: sedziobs on April 11, 2019, 01:19:59 AM
Quote
The Gravel campaign has put out a 29-page platform. It is radical, almost a “wish list” for the left. It includes cutting the military budget by 50 percent, closing Guantanamo Bay, ending the use of drones, vowing not to invade any sovereign nation in the absence of a first strike, closing all military bases abroad, and abolishing the Senate and the electoral college. It contains many ideas that no other Democratic candidate would ever dare to mention. Bernie Sanders, Oks and Williams say, is concerned with appearing electable, and so is careful not to become too “radical.” Mike Gravel, with no chance whatsoever of winning the nomination, can say as he pleases.

So their goal is this: get the 65,000 individual donations necessary to qualify Mike Gravel for the Democratic debates. The donation amounts don’t matter for the purposes of qualifying—they can be as small as $1, which is what I donated. Mike Gravel can say things on stage that Bernie Sanders would never say. He can call for completely terminating U.S. military aid to Israel. He will talk about U.S. intervention in Venezuela. He will bring a radically pacifist voice onto the debate stage and discuss the reality of what war means and why we must prioritize global peace.
https://www.currentaffairs.org/2019/04/why-i-gave-a-buck-to-mike-gravel (https://www.currentaffairs.org/2019/04/why-i-gave-a-buck-to-mike-gravel)
Title: Re: Who should be the Democratic nominee for President in 2020?
Post by: sidd on April 11, 2019, 05:32:51 AM
I really like this one from Gravel:

"Rename the Department of Defense the Department of War."

(Was first renamed from the department of war to department of defense in 1947.)

sidd



Title: Re: Who should be the Democratic nominee for President in 2020?
Post by: sidd on April 12, 2019, 12:25:03 AM
Gravel and Gabbard denounce Assange arrest:

https://twitter.com/MikeGravel/status/1116379216570986496
https://twitter.com/TulsiGabbard/status/1116446982342529024

sidd
Title: Re: Who should be the Democratic nominee for President in 2020?
Post by: b_lumenkraft on April 13, 2019, 04:55:24 PM
TIL Joe Biden supported seperation in 1977.

Link >> https://edition.cnn.com/2019/04/11/politics/joe-biden-busing-letters-2020/index.html

You know, like 10 years after Bernie got arrested for protesting for MLK.

It is unbelievable for me that people who supported segregation never did their fair share of jail time. On the contrary, they are well-polled candidates for the 2020 election. You can't make this shit up, seriously.
Title: Re: Who should be the Democratic nominee for President in 2020?
Post by: Susan Anderson on April 13, 2019, 05:08:39 PM
Hating on Democrats will elect Republicans. Gravel's a great guy, but I'm for the art of the possible. Absolutism and faultfinding of the imperfect (while ignoring the monstrous) gets us Hitler, Stalin, Trump, MBS, Al Sisi, Erdogan, Kim Jong Un, Putin, Duterte, Netanyahu, Bolsonaro, Assad, Mugabe, etc. Undermining allies of social and humanitarian resistance gets you the establishment and coercion.

That said, I wish you all would take a good hard look at Elizabeth Warren, who is in my view the ideal to lead my country. She's not doing well, being a practical woman quite willing to take on the establishment, and surprisingly successful at doing so against great odds, but not inclined to hype and charismatic overstatement. There are several others I'd be happy with, Inslee for his 100% climate focus, Corey Booker, despite a few things

Tulsi Gabbard is a nice pretty woman, who follows a guru and probably could earn the support of the military-industrial establishment. She has some good views, but is weak overall. Rand Paul is monstrous, all about removing all restraint on corporate governance and getting rid of any regulatory restraint on the environment and corporate power.

Title: Re: Who should be the Democratic nominee for President in 2020?
Post by: Neven on April 13, 2019, 07:20:24 PM
Hating on Democrats will elect Republicans.

Joe Biden is a Republican, so no problems there.  ;D

It's important that as many people that say the right things make it to the debate stage, whether they can win the presidency or not. It's good if Warren, Gabbard, Gravel, Yang, and perhaps some more, make it there and get to have a say, because it's high time the Overton Window gets shoved back a bit. You can't beat Trump with the worn-out neoliberal narratives that worked two-three decades ago. Sort of.
Title: Re: Who should be the Democratic nominee for President in 2020?
Post by: bbr2314 on April 13, 2019, 09:08:01 PM
Hating on Democrats will elect Republicans.

Joe Biden is a Republican, so no problems there.  ;D

It's important that as many people that say the right things make it to the debate stage, whether they can win the presidency or not. It's good if Warren, Gabbard, Gravel, Yang, and perhaps some more, make it there and get to have a say, because it's high time the Overton Window gets shoved back a bit. You can't beat Trump with the worn-out neoliberal narratives that worked two-three decades ago. Sort of.

LOL. I love how Susan's post began with the "art of the possible" and then advocated for Elizabeth Warren, who wants to breakup Big Tech and reward minorities with reparations.

Any candidate who backs reparations is a non-starter in the United States. Why should I pay for the damages caused by slavery when my ancestors were in Europe at the time (and were subsequently forcibly moved by Germans + Russians)? Should I receive reparations from Neven for acts the Austrians actively collaborated with the Germans to perpetrate back in the 1940s?

Obviously the answer is "no" and also "that is very stupid". The same goes for reparations suggested in the US, where the division / arbitrary nature of "reparations" is even more nonsensical. Warren is a professional at pandering and while that may earn Pocahontas a point or two in primary polls she is not going to win the overall primaries and if she does, she will be destroyed by an enormous margin in the general election.

You can take my points made ^ and apply them to almost any other Democrat currently running. Biden is OK. But I don't think he will win the nomination. I think it will be a moonbat like Bernie Sanders and at that point Trump will crush / destroy in 2020, and if it is Sanders (or anyone but Biden), I would probably vote for Trump as well.

Finally: I would suggest that this insane response from "Susan" perfectly highlights how out of touch middle class Democrats are with working-class voters, especially in the middle of the country. These ridiculous and racist talking points (yes, reparations ARE racist) will only serve to distance the majority of previous D voters from whatever candidate makes these points, furthering the implosion of the party at large. Trump won in 2016 because 95% of Democrats have their heads too far up their own a$$ to realize how US elections work and what talking points are crucial to victory (and Hillary was busy campaigning in states like Georgia and Arizona like a lunatic). They refuse to recognize this three years later (i.e., Susan's post, b_lumenkraft's ongoing posts, etc) so it will come as no surprise when the same thing happens in 2020. It's the economy, stupid, and (IMO) Trump will unwind his trade war in time for a stock market bump through the general election, and that is all that will matter to the voting public.
Title: Re: Who should be the Democratic nominee for President in 2020?
Post by: b_lumenkraft on April 13, 2019, 09:44:24 PM
Why should I pay for the damages caused by slavery when my ancestors were in Europe at the time

Same reason why Germany pays reparations. Because it's the right thing to do.

You will never get rid of the problem, in this case racism, if you can't even admit wrongdoings and put your money where your mouth is.
Title: Re: Who should be the Democratic nominee for President in 2020?
Post by: bbr2314 on April 13, 2019, 10:20:14 PM
Why should I pay for the damages caused by slavery when my ancestors were in Europe at the time

Same reason why Germany pays reparations. Because it's the right thing to do.

You will never get rid of the problem, in this case racism, if you can't even admit wrongdoings and put your money where your mouth is.
I had nothing to do with these wrongdoings (re: slavery). My family has never received reparations from Germany or Russia. So WTF are you talking about?

This is the kind of diffuse & nonsensical logic that will lose your people the election. By saying "everyone is racist and white people need to compensate black people for existing" you are going to foment actual on-the-streets racism and make any existing issues much worse.

By your logic Neven should be living in a cave eating porridge and beans for every meal while he gives all of his income to whatever group "enlightened" people like yourself decide is morally correct, for all of the sins Austrians have committed this century. But luckily you are just some stupid Democrat and your ideas will never be practiced in reality.  ;D

Final note: if anyone were to ever attempt to implement reparations on a national scale, there would be full scale civil war. Thanks to the Second Amendment, b_lumenkraft's side would most definitely end up losing (and I don't see the military turning against the places where the soldiers originate, in fact, I would see them actively supporting whatever faction is against the liberal lunacy).
Title: Re: Who should be the Democratic nominee for President in 2020?
Post by: b_lumenkraft on April 13, 2019, 10:28:14 PM
So WTF are you talking about?

Well, what can i say to that? If you really don't know why and for what Germany is paying reparations, that's on you buddy. Entirely on you. Goto school.
Title: Re: Who should be the Democratic nominee for President in 2020?
Post by: bbr2314 on April 13, 2019, 10:31:41 PM
So WTF are you talking about?

Well, what can i say to that? If you really don't know why and for what Germany is paying reparations, that's on you buddy. Entirely on you. Goto school.
I HAVE NOT RECEIVED ANY REPARATIONS. The Germans displaced my entire family and then the Russians did as well. You keep saying "reparations are great," so where are my reparations? My point is you are stupid and outside of identifiable survivors of genocide (i.e. the Holocaust, which has survivors that are literally enumerated and a cast of perpetrators that are easily identifiable) they are unfeasible, and turning back the clock to 1865 on a country that has multiplied several times over in population since then, which does NOT have any living victims or perpetrators re: slavery, is a recipe for disaster.

I think this little exchange exemplifies why most people ended up voting for Trump in the states where it actually mattered. It isn't that people loved Trump (although some certainly did). It was because people like you have keyboards with which you antagonize to no benefit, and the public at large just wants you to STFU.
Title: Re: Who should be the Democratic nominee for President in 2020?
Post by: b_lumenkraft on April 13, 2019, 10:44:29 PM
I HAVE NOT RECEIVED ANY REPARATIONS.

Why don't you tell me?
Title: Re: Who should be the Democratic nominee for President in 2020?
Post by: bbr2314 on April 13, 2019, 10:46:52 PM
I HAVE NOT RECEIVED ANY REPARATIONS.

Why don't you tell me?
Why don't you keep on generating more votes for Trump, you have done it with me already, lol!
Title: Re: Who should be the Democratic nominee for President in 2020?
Post by: Neven on April 14, 2019, 12:26:03 AM
But did Germany pay any reparations? I mean, they did that after WWI and it turned out to be a huge mistake.
Title: Re: Who should be the Democratic nominee for President in 2020?
Post by: bbr2314 on April 14, 2019, 12:30:33 AM
But did Germany pay any reparations? I mean, they did that after WWI and it turned out to be a huge mistake.
I demand reparations from Neven!!!! #democratlogic #whytheyalwayslose

(also: I think they actually did pay to survivors of the Holocaust / https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reparations_Agreement_between_Israel_and_West_Germany)
Title: Re: Who should be the Democratic nominee for President in 2020?
Post by: bbr2314 on April 14, 2019, 12:42:28 AM
Why should I pay for the damages caused by slavery when my ancestors were in Europe at the time

Same reason why Germany pays reparations. Because it's the right thing to do.

You will never get rid of the problem, in this case racism, if you can't even admit wrongdoings and put your money where your mouth is.
I had nothing to do with these wrongdoings (re: slavery).

Not personally no.

But what you (and everyone else, including the last immigrant to arrive in the USA) are doing now is enjoying the capitalist fruits of and the privileges of today built upon the blood sweat and tears of the slavery, racism, murder, abuse, and the disenfranchise of slaves and their African-American descendants. 

You are standing upon the backs of all America's ancestors, and that very much includes the excessive Profits made from white racist criminal pathologically sick Slave Holders that otherwise would never have occurred and helped to build the wealth of the nation in which you live today.

edit of B_ for better clarity ...
You will never get rid of the problem, in this case racism, by remaining a white racist denying the immorality of the past and it's serious impacts upon all the descendants of slaves in the present.
Blah blah blah

Throw yourself in a blender to repent or STFU

In meantime I will vote for Trump and you will keep posting these insane rants online where you are shouting into an echo chamber

I love how random posters who have never built anything or made any meaningful contributions to society love dictating how society should function based on their far-flung and literally INSANE belief systems and then they get angry when their moonbat candidates don't get elected and tell everyone else that we are the problem. LOL. You should lurk more and post less.
Title: Re: Who should be the Democratic nominee for President in 2020?
Post by: b_lumenkraft on April 14, 2019, 06:48:49 AM
But did Germany pay any reparations? I mean, they did that after WWI and it turned out to be a huge mistake.

Yes, some historians do make the claim that the burden of WWI reparations on Weimar Germany caused Hitler to rise.

I would say WWI reparations were a non-problem like Trump's caravan was. Hitler made people believe it was a problem.

And yes, reparations after WWII is a thing. >>https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_War_II_reparations#Recipients
Title: Re: Who should be the Democratic nominee for President in 2020?
Post by: b_lumenkraft on April 14, 2019, 06:54:40 AM
edit of B_ for better clarity ...
You will never get rid of the problem, in this case racism, by remaining a white racist denying the immorality of the past and it's serious impacts upon all the descendants of slaves in the present.

Way better than my version. Thanks, Lurk.

Title: Re: Who should be the Democratic nominee for President in 2020?
Post by: bbr2314 on April 14, 2019, 07:52:35 AM
I will not debate the politics behind this any longer but the race itself. I think that the 2016 Republican primary is a much better analogy than the 2016 D primary as the field this year is similarly divergent with many names making a splash.

It should be noted that Jeb Bush was leading the pack at this time in 2016. Rubio and Walker were second and third respectively. And Trump was nowhere near the lead.

By September 1st, Trump was the clear leader of the pack, Ben Carson was running behind him, and Bush was in third place.

Personally I think this lends credence to a Buttigieg candidacy. I am seeing many problems with Joe, who hasn't even announced yet, but is in a similar position to Jeb in 2016 (elder family name brand politician with low energy and with a legacy that can be drawn out and scrutinized/scandalized to death).

Rubio and Sanders are also somewhat similar firebrands of each opposing side of the political aisle, but like Biden, Sanders has a very long rap sheet of "howcouldhehavedonethats" that can be played out in the press. I think that his legacy in the party puts him ahead of Rubio in that respect but the same legacy is potentially damaging when facing the realities of a modern presidential campaign.

Both Carson and Trump were major party outsiders at the start of the race. Cruz ultimately became the closest candidate to derailing Trump after surpassing Carson and Fiorina's blips (again, both outsiders). But Cruz represented the establishment party against Trump (and Kasich at a last ditch effort).

Who are the rising outsiders in the Democrats' field this year? I think Buttigieg is really the only one. O'Rourke could be this year's version of Cruz. A second-place contender who is young enough to look like they are new to Washington's politics, a faux-outsider. I could see Warren's campaign persisting to an undignified end like Kasich's as well. But if recent history is any guide, the current leaders of a crowded pack are unlikely to hold those positions come summer 2019, and the likely favorite is probably an "outsider" polling middle-of-the-pack with rapidly growing name recognition (and my "on-the-ground" anecdotal evidence further confirms this is Buttigieg).

Title: Re: Who should be the Democratic nominee for President in 2020?
Post by: Neven on April 14, 2019, 11:22:28 AM
But did Germany pay any reparations? I mean, they did that after WWI and it turned out to be a huge mistake.

Yes, some historians do make the claim that the burden of WWI reparations on Weimar Germany caused Hitler to rise.

I would say WWI reparations were a non-problem like Trump's caravan was. Hitler made people believe it was a problem.

And yes, reparations after WWII is a thing. >>https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_War_II_reparations#Recipients

Okay, thanks, didn't know this.

But did Germany pay any reparations? I mean, they did that after WWI and it turned out to be a huge mistake.
I demand reparations from Neven!!!! #democratlogic #whytheyalwayslose

I think I agree with you that reparations are bygones, so keep your cool. And thanks for going on topic again.
Title: Re: Who should be the Democratic nominee for President in 2020?
Post by: b_lumenkraft on April 14, 2019, 04:54:17 PM
Does Andrew Yang Want The Most Regressive Tax In The World?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pyjK1wIvRVQ
Title: Re: Who should be the Democratic nominee for President in 2020?
Post by: bbr2314 on April 15, 2019, 01:47:33 AM
Google search trends has very important insight IMO.

https://trends.google.com/trends/explore?date=now%207-d&geo=US&q=Buttigieg,elizabeth%20warren,%2Fm%2F01_gbv,Joe%20Biden,Beto

Buttigieg has surged ahead of all major current contenders for the past week after quickly gaining over the past month. Will it be sustained? My guess is yes.

Title: Re: Who should be the Democratic nominee for President in 2020?
Post by: ritter on April 16, 2019, 05:34:17 PM
Hating on Democrats will elect Republicans.

You mean like Pelosi and others of the corporate dems doing everything possible to marginalize and sideline our young progressive AOC? Like the DNC demanding loyalty? Yeah, that's a great approach. Throw out everything Gen X, Y and millennials care about for more of the same (disaffection with the same was what got us Trump). This is what I criticize my party over--the inability to think about the challenges young people are facing. They are catastrophic and urgent, much more so than Trump's tax returns, Russian intervention and gun control which dominate the agenda. Unchecked climate change will cost billions every year and kill 10s to 100s of thousands. Yet when the Green New Deal is discussed, it's done in the light of ensuring it never sees the light of day to placate who? The money makers? Certainly not the progressives who would drive an agenda focused on a better life and future. It's fucking crumbs, Susan. That's the corporate dem policy. Placate them with crumbs. What ever happened to truth to power?
Title: Re: Who should be the Democratic nominee for President in 2020?
Post by: b_lumenkraft on April 16, 2019, 06:37:12 PM
Hating on people is not good.

Pointing out flaws of the political system, discredit politicians who are corrupted, protest for the issues that are important to you, cut support to those on the wrong way, point out the ones who play unfair, debunk lies, calling the war criminals just that, all this is fine and necessary in the democratic process.
Title: Re: Who should be the Democratic nominee for President in 2020?
Post by: bbr2314 on April 16, 2019, 09:49:54 PM
Hating on Democrats will elect Republicans.

You mean like Pelosi and others of the corporate dems doing everything possible to marginalize and sideline our young progressive AOC? Like the DNC demanding loyalty? Yeah, that's a great approach. Throw out everything Gen X, Y and millennials care about for more of the same (disaffection with the same was what got us Trump). This is what I criticize my party over--the inability to think about the challenges young people are facing. They are catastrophic and urgent, much more so than Trump's tax returns, Russian intervention and gun control which dominate the agenda. Unchecked climate change will cost billions every year and kill 10s to 100s of thousands. Yet when the Green New Deal is discussed, it's done in the light of ensuring it never sees the light of day to placate who? The money makers? Certainly not the progressives who would drive an agenda focused on a better life and future. It's fucking crumbs, Susan. That's the corporate dem policy. Placate them with crumbs. What ever happened to truth to power?
AOC is a brain-dead moron and embracing her politics will LITERALLY be the end of the Democrats.
Title: Re: Who should be the Democratic nominee for President in 2020?
Post by: Neven on April 16, 2019, 11:36:12 PM
Agreed, we need 1000 AOCs. The more diverse the people with principles we have, the better. Everything is better than Corporate Democrats.

BTW, is there snow in your head, bbr, and has spring started early where you live?
Title: Re: Who should be the Democratic nominee for President in 2020?
Post by: bbr2314 on April 17, 2019, 12:39:07 AM
Agreed, we need 1000 AOCs. The more diverse the people with principles we have, the better. Everything is better than Corporate Democrats.

BTW, is there snow in your head, bbr, and has spring started early where you live?
AOC killed Amazon's HQ2 in NYC. She does not understand basic economics. Subsidies were to be given but the revenue generated from 40K new jobs at $100K avg salary a yr would have more than outpaced and given massive new revenue stream to LIC. It was a total disaster and it was largely her fault.
Title: Re: Who should be the Democratic nominee for President in 2020?
Post by: Neven on April 17, 2019, 01:00:20 AM
AOC killed Amazon's HQ2 in NYC. She does not understand basic economics. Subsidies were to be given but the revenue generated from 40K new jobs at $100K avg salary a yr would have more than outpaced and given massive new revenue stream to LIC. It was a total disaster and it was largely her fault.

What I've seen about that story, was that Amazon was playing games, trying to get something for free, and as an added bonus all the development plans of major cities around the US for free. As for AOC's involvement, I don't believe for one second she has as much power as you imply. So, this is basically a smear, which convinces me even more that the US needs 1000 AOCs to really start making a difference.

But AOC is not running for the White House, so please, leave the Fox-smears where you found them, thanks.
Title: Re: Who should be the Democratic nominee for President in 2020?
Post by: b_lumenkraft on April 17, 2019, 06:54:40 AM
AOC killed Amazon's HQ2 in NYC. She does not understand basic economics.

That's such an insanely wrong comment, i can't even...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8X9lO-Xjl3E
Title: Re: Who should be the Democratic nominee for President in 2020?
Post by: sidd on April 17, 2019, 09:32:59 AM
knife fights in the trenches: buttigieg working with anti sanders democrats

"They hate everything our political revolution embodies," wrote Shakir. "They hate Medicare for All, the Green New Deal, breaking up big banks, free public college for all."

" Speaker Nancy Pelosi; Senator Chuck Schumer, the majority leader; former Gov. Terry McAuliffe of Virginia; Mayor Pete Buttigieg of South Bend, Ind., himself a presidential candidate; and the president of the Center for American Progress (CAP), Neera Tanden."

"Splinter's Libby Watson pointed out that a significant component of Sanders' popularity among progressives lies in the fact that he is despised by the corporate donor class and the Democratic establishment."


https://www.commondreams.org/news/2019/04/16/sanders-2020-campaign-gains-steam-corporate-democrats-reportedly-growing

"How, some Democrats are beginning to ask, do they thwart a 70-something candidate from outside the party structure who is immune to intimidation or incentive and wields support from an unwavering base, without simply reinforcing his “the establishment is out to get me”’ message — the same grievance Mr. Trump used to great effect?"

" “There’s a growing realization that Sanders could end up winning this thing, or certainly that he stays in so long that he damages the actual winner,” said David Brock, the liberal organizer, who said he has had discussions with other operatives about an anti-Sanders campaign and believes it should commence “sooner rather than later.” "

"Mr. Gifford, who has gone public in recent days with his dismay over major Democratic fund-raisers remaining on the sidelines, said of Mr. Sanders, “I feel like everything we are doing is playing into his hands.” "

https://www.nytimes.com/2019/04/16/us/politics/bernie-sanders-democratic-party.html

what ever will they do about bernie ?  he went on fox in bethlehem PA. Which is trump country. He killed it. Had the audience cheering. The guy might even make the dem nomination clean on the first round.

sidd

Title: Re: Who should be the Democratic nominee for President in 2020?
Post by: ritter on April 17, 2019, 06:24:05 PM
In many ways, Sanders represents the democratic party's version of Trump. People are so sick of the usual BS politics, they'll toss money and votes at someone outside the norm that has the right talking points. This is panicking the party because they can't control it and it might (will) cost them significant money. Fortunately, Sanders (mostly) says things I support vs. Trump's stump of hatred and protection from the "other."
Title: Re: Who should be the Democratic nominee for President in 2020?
Post by: ritter on April 17, 2019, 06:28:05 PM
Agreed, we need 1000 AOCs. The more diverse the people with principles we have, the better. Everything is better than Corporate Democrats.

Agreed. I don't love everything AOC stands for but I admire her enthusiastic push on political norms and she understands that incrementalism is going to kill us all. She's the sort of candidate I look for when voting these days.

Not convinced Trump is better than Corporate Democrats.... ;)
Title: Re: Who should be the Democratic nominee for President in 2020?
Post by: sidd on April 22, 2019, 11:09:36 PM
Bernie takes on GM:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tSLKEo0x9g0

sidd
Title: Re: Who should be the Democratic nominee for President in 2020?
Post by: sidd on April 23, 2019, 01:50:22 AM
Robinson at current affairs savages Buttigieg: Pete Buttigieg is all about Pete Buttigieg.

"When asked why he wants to hold an office, he talks much more about who he is than what he will do."

"He’s from the Rust Belt so he’s authentic, but he went to Harvard so he’s not a rube, but he’s from a small city so he’s relatable, but he’s gay so he’s got coastal appeal, but he’s a veteran so his sexuality won’t alienate rural people. This is literally the level of political thinking that is involved in the hype around Buttigieg."

"A labor organizer friend of mine has a test he uses for politicians: When they talk, is it all about themselves, or all about the causes they care about? Do they talk incessantly about their Journey and their Homespun Values, or do they talk about people’s needs, the power structure, and how to build a more just world? "

"I actually understand the appeal ... He can say all the words you want to hear ...But the question is always: What do you actually mean by this stuff? ... If a statement can mean many things to many people, what are you sticking up for? What can we expect of you? You can always achieve unity through vapidity, but you can’t achieve anything else."

" it seems as if Buttigieg’s values are the word “values.” "

https://www.currentaffairs.org/2019/03/all-about-pete

sidd
Title: Re: Who should be the Democratic nominee for President in 2020?
Post by: bbr2314 on April 23, 2019, 10:42:41 AM
Buttigieg is surging in polling and has maintained lead in Google search. I think he is looking increasingly likely to be the nominee, he is also the only D I would support.
Title: Re: Who should be the Democratic nominee for President in 2020?
Post by: b_lumenkraft on April 23, 2019, 10:52:49 AM
Out of curiosity Bbr, for what reasons/issues would you support him?
Title: Re: Who should be the Democratic nominee for President in 2020?
Post by: bbr2314 on April 23, 2019, 10:59:41 AM
Out of curiosity Bbr, for what reasons/issues would you support him?
He is a moderate and appears uninterested in tax hikes or other schemes that would damage the economy. In fact his lack of specifics / overall moderate + status quo sensibilities are why I support him, as Sanders + Warren are full of pie in the sky nonsense that (IMO) would also be damaging to the US economy and civil cohesion.

I should note that I did not vote in 2016 as I was content with either outcome. If 2020 is Buttigieg v. Trump, I will probably do the same. If Sanders or Warren win the nomination, I would likely vote for Trump.
Title: Re: Who should be the Democratic nominee for President in 2020?
Post by: b_lumenkraft on April 23, 2019, 11:25:30 AM
Am i right that you would describe yourself as a right-leaning centrist, Bbr?

May i ask what the 'pie in the sky nonsense' is you are opposing so badly and why it wouldn't work for the US?

Not asking for an essay of you but a couple of concrete points perhaps.
Title: Re: Who should be the Democratic nominee for President in 2020?
Post by: b_lumenkraft on April 23, 2019, 05:39:36 PM
The Living Dead Third Way Conspires To Stop Bernie?

How centrism is an absolute disaster for society.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X0xX6hVU9sQ
Title: Re: Who should be the Democratic nominee for President in 2020?
Post by: bbr2314 on April 23, 2019, 08:43:24 PM
Am i right that you would describe yourself as a right-leaning centrist, Bbr?

May i ask what the 'pie in the sky nonsense' is you are opposing so badly and why it wouldn't work for the US?

Not asking for an essay of you but a couple of concrete points perhaps.
Anything "free" is never "free", Warren's college debt forgiveness plan is an insult to the people who actually paid for college, as well as the people who have paid off their loans, as well as the people who didn't go to college because they couldn't afford it. It is the most juvenile and divisive form of pandering I have seen yet this election cycle.

Bernie is similarly campaigning on "free" nonsense even if the specifics aren't as hashed out as Warren's lies.

I think national healthcare should be available for anyone with a BMI under 30. The vast majority of cost overruns are due to a small minority of morbidly obese patients who suck up an exceedingly huge percentage of resources. So perhaps in that single regard I am a "conditional" socialist.

Otherwise I am staunchly against "big government" as I find that government's main purpose is to perpetuate and expand its own existence rather than to benefit the people which it purportedly serves. I don't care too much about social issues, IMO they are only useful for pandering to plebes without committing to any actual meaningful issues (i.e. anything to do with taxes).

I voted Obama in 2008 but have not voted since then. I would say my politics have continued drifting rightward since then and I am probably more right-wing than centrist-right but I have no problem with either label.
Title: Re: Who should be the Democratic nominee for President in 2020?
Post by: b_lumenkraft on April 23, 2019, 09:21:11 PM
Thank you Bbr for your honest answer.

I can't help to drop some sarcasm here: Why cure cancer? Isn't that an insult on anyone who ever died of cancer?

But on a serious note. You don't understand the free part in Bernie's HC proposal. It is free of charge at the point of service meaning no copays, no deductibles, no hidden costs. You chose the doc and that's it. Of course, you pay for the insurance. Only, that the insurance is one big pool in this case. Anyone knowing just a little bit about insurances will tell you, the bigger the pool the better risk assessment wise. This is how it's done everywhere on the planet and it would also work in the US. You will end up paying half (or even less). You would pay it in taxes, not to a private insurance company.

So what's so 'big government' in pooling risks and collecting money? That's a task the government does all the time in any aspect of life even in the US and even accepted in conservative circles. Why is it so bad in this special case?
Title: Re: Who should be the Democratic nominee for President in 2020?
Post by: b_lumenkraft on April 23, 2019, 09:21:53 PM
Why Bernie Sanders is Democrats' Best 2020 Candidate to Defeat Donald Trump

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M3S-kyc8aKs
Title: Re: Who should be the Democratic nominee for President in 2020?
Post by: bbr2314 on April 24, 2019, 05:44:56 AM
Otherwise I am staunchly against "big government" as I find that government's main purpose is to perpetuate and expand its own existence rather than to benefit the people which it purportedly serves.

This is a deeply entrenched social meme in American culture. It's quite unique in the civilised world and has been for centuries. Because it is deeply believed in and accepted by such a large percentage of society it's generally accepted as such an obvious truth as to be undeniable to 'anyone with a brain'.

As such anyone who might quote a few facts or history or relevant comparisons will be subsequently dispatched as a moron without a brain. Thus it's persisted for centuries and has not changed.

The Americans learn this default "socially engrained meme" from the moment they are sitting on their mothers knee for it to be reconditioned into them at church, at school, at work, on the TV and it's reinforced throughout their life. Subsequently to poison their own children's minds and successfully dumb them down too.

It's a myth and it's a social, cultural lie a majority still believe is true. Many are still living in the 1770s where any moment now a Red Coat will be bursting through your homestead door looking for insurgency materials against the King.

It's one of the most amazing but fraudulent social constructs/beliefs in the whole world. It's as persistent a myth as young earth creationism, the denial of evolution, and the denial of climate science is in America ... being the global the capital of such beliefs btw.

And the people who believe in such tripe are not going away anytime soon. They are highly motivated voters too. Their whole world views and their personal IDENTITY depends on the truth of these myths, these lies.

OK great, keep losing elections, it is what your people do best! ;)

And you can go and move to China if you are so fond of truly big government.

Also: I was raised in an exceedingly liberal environment that included substantial childhood time abroad. I am not a "meat and potatoes" American, and as I mentioned, I do indeed support healthcare for all, and I voted for Obama in 2008. If you think making personal attacks against anyone who isn't where Sanders is on the political spectrum is an effective strategy for winning people over... again, it explains why you keep losing.  ;D
Title: Re: Who should be the Democratic nominee for President in 2020?
Post by: bbr2314 on April 24, 2019, 06:39:58 AM
I do indeed support healthcare for all

Except you do not.

Nor do you support any kind of Medicare for All / Universal coverage arrangement in America (as it exists in every other civilised nation be they wealthy or not).

This is abundantly clear and obvious. You're not alone either.

Technically you are correct, I support healthcare for everyone with a BMI under 30, maybe that doesn't include you -- I wouldn't be surprised. Exercise creates endorphins and endorphins make you happy, and you clearly are not happy.

PS, your "dream" society where everyone can be morbidly obese and everything is bought and paid for by the government already exists, it was depicted wonderfully in the Pixar film "Wall-E"!

Unfortunately it came with the side effect of an Earth that was almost entirely devoid of any life whatsoever, so, you know, there's that little trade-off to be had.
Title: Re: Who should be the Democratic nominee for President in 2020?
Post by: Neven on April 24, 2019, 11:15:59 AM
bbr, do you have any idea how much profits those stupid, selfish obese people are generating? If you want to solve that (instead of the euthanasia you are proposing), you need to change the entire system, and to change a system, you need a government.

If the alternative to Big Government is Big Corporation, you're not going to solve anything. In fact, something worse happens: Big Government gets usurped by Big Corporation, which is what has happened in the US. That's a form of fascism. Like Lurk says, with such texts, you are only displaying your conditioned ignorance.

Don't expect change from the GOP or Corporate Democrats, they are all servants of concentrated wealth. For now, only Bernie Sanders is pointing in the right direction, but I agree it will take an entire movement to actually get there, and make sure the talk is turned into walk. I don't care what label people want to attach to that. I only care about solving AGW (and all the other global problems).

The only way forward is via the Democratic Party, but only if the progressive wing prevails.
Title: Re: Who should be the Democratic nominee for President in 2020?
Post by: b_lumenkraft on April 24, 2019, 11:25:57 AM
Person 1: I really want healthcare for all but not for the ones eating meat.
Person 2: I really want healthcare for all but not for the obese.
Person 3: I really want healthcare for all but not for the ones doing bungee jumping.
Person 4: I really want healthcare for all but not for the brown and black people.
etc
etc
etc

Bbr, do you understand why this can't be the way how you make laws?

It is stunning to me that a guy who's obviously capable of understanding very complex systems fails so hard in understanding basic politics.
Title: Re: Who should be the Democratic nominee for President in 2020?
Post by: SteveMDFP on April 24, 2019, 12:38:43 PM
An initial consultation with a GP doctor will cost in the range of $100 – $200 in the USA.

OK, so how much will Medicare for All pay those Doctors for a 10-15 minute consultation?

$200? No. $150? No. $100? Probably no. Maybe more like $75 if they are lucky.

How many GP Doctors in the USA are going to accept $75 or less? How many clinics and hospitals will accept that fee payment?
 
The Medicare schedule in Australia NZ will pay the doctor about $39 = $30 USD

Where are all the details of the medical services price schedules that a Medicare for All system will pay out to Doctors, specialists, hospitals and drug companies?

How many have agreed to accept those fee payments for services? Oh that'd be none.

Apparently some democrats incl Bernie have said Private Health insurance will no longer be required. Really? How so. My Sinai Hospital suddenly going to become a Public Hospital is it?  Charging public rates?

Let's say you broke your ankle really badly and show up at a US hospital late in the afternoon on a Friday. How will the new USA Medicare for All system handle that?

(How does the present system work even more interesting to answer that?) 


In Australia this is what typically happens -  turn up at a public hospital funded by Medicare and the State Govt, seen by a nurse within 3 minutes, seen by the admissions doctor within 15 minutes, admitted to hospital within 30 minutes in the emergency dept., paperwork and all, within 1 hour later all major medical tests done incl X-rays and safety checks for surgery, and seen by the anaesthetists on duty for planning purposes. Stay overnight, in surgery full anaesthetic by noon the next day, ankle fixed, recovery, with ongoing checks overnight. Leave hospital the next day after surgery with a pouch of medicine and out patient follow-up care all arranged.... and a doctors medical certificate for work purposes.

Total Cost to Patient = Zero.
Follow-up care including one's own local GP and Physcial Therapy costs = Zero. Zip Nada!

Personal cost to patient annually is their normal Taxes plus a 1.25% Medicare Levy of their Gross Income over and above $22,000 per annum.

Bernie, the rest of Democrats and the people calling for Medicare for All in the USA don't have a hope in hell.

None!

Totally agree.  Cost controls of some form are needed most. Without that, no system can work within a sane budget.    At most steps in health care, costs are created to shift money to shareholders.  The insurers are *not* the primary problem.  Still plenty of non-profit insurers around (many BC/BS affiliates remain non-profit).  Non-profit insurers are *unable* to offer coverage at reasonable costs.

Drug companies and device makers top the list of exorbitant costs.  Without a system to force them to negotiate a global price in the US market (or else sell nothing to anyone), they'll continue to make health care unaffordable, regardless of whose pocket the money comes from.

A politician could win popular votes here, but it would be risky.  These interests have powerful lobbies and huge PR budgets.  They almost derailed the modest reforms of the Affordable Care Act.  Still, Americans are totally fed up with healthcare that might be otherwise available, but results in many being unable to take needed medication.
Title: Re: Who should be the Democratic nominee for President in 2020?
Post by: Klondike Kat on April 24, 2019, 03:37:56 PM
By most accounts, medical costs started soaring, once insurance companies became intermediaries.  Costs were lower when it was just between the doctor and the patient.  Once people figured out that they could pay one annual fee, and then receive unlimited care, Pandora's box was opened.  The first step to counter rising costs was to institute a deductible.  This stemmed the rise somewhat, as people were reluctant to seek care, until the deductible was met.  But once that was met, no holds barred.  People tended to lump medical care into one calendar year to take advantage of the system.  Will a government provided system work better?  You knows?  The track record of the government providing improved services at reduced costs is not encouraging.
Title: Re: Who should be the Democratic nominee for President in 2020?
Post by: Neven on April 24, 2019, 04:01:38 PM
Quote
The track record of the government providing improved services at reduced costs is not encouraging.

Isn't this one of the conditioned myths surrounding Medicare for all? It sounds a bit like Corporate Democrat Dianne Feinstein: : If this means a government take-over of healthcare, I'm not there yet.

The government isn't providing any services. It's not taking over hospitals, etc.

The richest country in the history of the world, but a large percentage of the population either doesn't have access to health care, or goes bankrupt when they get ill.  ::)
Title: Re: Who should be the Democratic nominee for President in 2020?
Post by: Klondike Kat on April 25, 2019, 04:41:52 PM
There's nothing personal in the above. I know of one example story of a man in arkansas who broke his ankle. He had a car accident, totalled his car and had to walk / drag himself home. Had no health care plan and a several months later he died from his injuries. Died from a broken ankle. Ain't that sweet?

Rather than address such realities in a mature grown up rational and factual manner instead what comes for "discussions" about US lack of Health Care are vague generalities. Mythical (ie fake) generalities. Pseudo discussions about the efficacy of big bad "Government" even though in the USA they claim the Govt is of, for and BY the people. Yeah right. Sure it is when you're "dreaming".

People argue about lies. People argue about their false beliefs fed to them by politicians and the media and their parents and their dishonest biased and very often untrue history books. It's par for the course. Look what came from Clinton's great project in 93, fell flat on it's face, because both sides of US politics are a bunch of incompetents and fools.... except when it comes to serving their donor class of class, then they are brilliant actors.

It's par for the course of course. Be it military adventurism, regime change everywhere but inside the USA, manipulative geopolitics, corrupt bs trade deals, inaction on climate change, bailing out of the Paris agreement, oil and gas fracking that will ultimately destroy the land for generations.

Hey look over there we have to save those poor Venezuelans, it's a humanitarian disaster and they are run by a socialist dictator who is evil as sin. America is a joke and has been for decades!

There's no point in arguing with drunks, addicts, religious fanatics, or fools. Let them have it. Let them do what they want. And let them believe what they want and reap their just rewards, is what I say. I am not here to "save America" or help them see the light of reason and common sense, oh no, I am simply speak to alert those outside it to stop worrying about it or believing one day it might change.

No, you're on your own, your nation and the rest are on your own so you may as well start acting like it and trying to do whatever positive thing you can about AGW/CC (eg Extinction Rebellion) and juts forget about the USA entirely.  You will never be able to satisfy their delusional beliefs about reality. Don't even try. Health Care is a lightening rod to see how crazy and disconnected from reality they truly are. :D

Unfortunately, there is much truth in this post.  Proponents of any action tend to bring up isolated, emotional cases to substantiate their position.  Any discussion of benefits to the whole seem to get lost in examples of the few that will be harmed.  Tackling something as large and personal as national medicare care will be a monumental nightmare.  Gallup conducted a poll recently, and generated some interesting results:


https://news.gallup.com/poll/245195/americans-rate-healthcare-quite-positively.aspx

While Americans have an unfavorable view about general healthcare and costs in the country, they have a very favorable view about their own.  This dichotomy will likely undermine any changes in the near future.
Title: Re: Who should be the Democratic nominee for President in 2020?
Post by: sidd on April 25, 2019, 09:31:40 PM
Biden in:

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-47601125

Hassan at Intercept dont like him:

Hassan:

"Is the party bent on nominating Hillary 2.0?"

"Iraq War supporter? Check ... will be the only candidate — out of up to 20 Democrats running for the nomination — to have voted for the Iraq War ... Friend of Wall Street? Check ... Champion of mass incarceration? Check ...Establishment-friendly? Check ...  Gaffe-prone? Check ... Loser? Check ... "

"there is no question for the Democrats in 2020 to which Biden is the answer. Have they really learned no lessons from three years ago?"

https://theintercept.com/2019/03/21/joe-biden-2020-hillary-clinton/

Fang follows the money:

"committee includes Kenneth Jarin, a lobbyist with Ballard Spahr who is registered to work on behalf of toll road operator Conduent and several health care interests. "

" Alan Kessler, another lobbyist who works with the firm Duane Morris. Kessler is registered to lobby in Pennsylvania for American Airlines and the global information tech firm Unisys Corporation, among other clients."

"Michael Nutter, another host of the event, is a senior adviser to the local lobbying operation at Dentons, a law firm with a vast government affairs operation. Nutter is also on the board of Conduent."

"Daniel Hilferty, a member of the Biden host committee, is the chief executive officer of Independence Blue Cross. He is on the board of America’s Health Insurance Plans, the trade association working to defeat the progressive push for Medicare for All."

https://theintercept.com/2019/04/25/joe-biden-presidential-bid-lobbyists-fundraiser/

sidd
Title: Re: Who should be the Democratic nominee for President in 2020?
Post by: sidd on April 26, 2019, 01:59:32 AM
Marcetic at Jacobin on Biden: Biden is a disaster

Solomon at truthdig: Biden is a fraud

https://www.jacobinmag.com/2019/04/joe-biden-2020-presidential-campaign-record

https://www.truthdig.com/articles/joe-biden-is-a-phony-plain-and-simple/

Gee, don't hold back, tell us how you really feel, guys.

sidd
Title: Re: Who should be the Democratic nominee for President in 2020?
Post by: Klondike Kat on April 27, 2019, 03:13:42 PM
Lurk,
I think you nailed it on the healthcare.  The buzzwords May continue to be a campaign slogan, but that is probably all.
Title: Re: Who should be the Democratic nominee for President in 2020?
Post by: sidd on April 28, 2019, 06:01:30 AM
Ford at blackagendareport argues that Sanders will be stopped:

"it’s simply the job of corporate Democrats to defend corporate interests"

"the Democratic Party has become the ruling class’s most important political instrument"

"will thwart his campaign – by any means necessary."

https://blackagendareport.com/stop-sanders-year-corporate-long-knives

sidd
Title: Re: Who should be the Democratic nominee for President in 2020?
Post by: Klondike Kat on April 28, 2019, 02:52:03 PM
Ford at blackagendareport argues that Sanders will be stopped:

"it’s simply the job of corporate Democrats to defend corporate interests"

"the Democratic Party has become the ruling class’s most important political instrument"

"will thwart his campaign – by any means necessary."

https://blackagendareport.com/stop-sanders-year-corporate-long-knives

sidd

That would not surprise me.  The Democratic bosses are less accepting of outsiders than the Republicans.  We saw how much they tried to derail Trump in 2016.  I suspect they will back Biden heavily to prevent such a scenario.
Title: Re: Who should be the Democratic nominee for President in 2020?
Post by: Ken Feldman on April 29, 2019, 07:25:23 PM
Beto O'Rourke calls for $5 trillion investment in clean energy over 10 years.

https://forum.arctic-sea-ice.net/index.php?action=post;topic=2200.150;last_msg=197096 (https://forum.arctic-sea-ice.net/index.php?action=post;topic=2200.150;last_msg=197096)

Quote
Democratic presidential candidate Beto O'Rourke labeled climate change "the greatest threat we face" as he called for $5 trillion to be spent over the next decade with the goal of neutralizing carbon emissions in the U.S. by midcentury.

The former Texas congressman's plan is among the most detailed of the crowded Democratic 2020 field, but it does not define how it would achieve dramatic reductions in greenhouse gas emissions. Its goal for getting the U.S. to net-zero carbon emissions by 2050 also aligns with the ambitious aims of the "Green New Deal," a lofty set of climate priorities advanced by activists and Rep. Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez (D-N.Y.) and Sen. Ed Markey (D-Mass.).

O'Rourke said he wanted the government and private sector to spend $5 trillion over 10 years on clean energy infrastructure, framing the investment as a way to limit significant future economic and health costs caused by climate change while addressing racial, generational and economic inequities.
Title: Re: Who should be the Democratic nominee for President in 2020?
Post by: Tor Bejnar on April 29, 2019, 09:27:41 PM
Interesting: 
Cost for the United States to fight World War II:  $288 billion (https://www.whatitcosts.com/world-war-ii-cost-united-states-facts/)
Inflation adjusted for today:  $5.1 trillion (https://www.dollartimes.com/inflation/inflation.php?amount=100&year=1940)

But these days we are in an existential challenge!
Title: Re: Who should be the Democratic nominee for President in 2020?
Post by: b_lumenkraft on April 29, 2019, 10:24:35 PM
The wars after 9.11 where 7,1 trillion iirc.
Title: Re: Who should be the Democratic nominee for President in 2020?
Post by: b_lumenkraft on April 30, 2019, 09:16:07 AM
Recently CNN was caught manipulating polls (ignored all age groups below 50y).

Now it's MSNBC.

Liberal media anyone?

Cable news is propaganda and entertainment, not news!
Title: Re: Who should be the Democratic nominee for President in 2020?
Post by: sidd on May 02, 2019, 06:39:09 AM
Nolan goes full Taibbi on Biden at the guardian: "This is how it works."

"His constituency is real. It is not illuminating to think of them just as centrists ... It’s better to think of them as zombies ... It is not so much that they do not, deep down, harbor a vague wish for a better world; it is that, like stray dogs dining exclusively on garbage, life has taught them that this is the best that they will ever get."

"This is how Democratic politics has been done in Joe Biden’s lifetime. This is how it works."

"For the people who matter, Joe Biden is doing just what he is expected to do."

"the credit card industry’s man in Washington ... voted against gay marriage when it was unpopular ... changing his mind years later, when it was popular ... played a key role in launching America’s war on drugs and mass incarceration epidemic ... voted in favor of the Iraq war "

"Later, he apologized."

"He is well on his way to uniting everyone who likes to watch the world burn."

"This is a perfect referendum on where our country is now."

"I fully expect Joe Biden to step out of his campaign headquarters and fall directly into the huge pit that has opened up as America moved tectonically to the left. "

"here we are: incredibly divided, hopelessly unequal, justifiably sick of our broken institutions, and very, very angry."

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2019/apr/30/clinton-era-politics-joe-biden

sidd
Title: Re: Who should be the Democratic nominee for President in 2020?
Post by: Klondike Kat on May 02, 2019, 03:09:20 PM
At this point, it is all about Biden.  He will win or lose on his own.  Unless he engages in some form of campaign self-sabotage, he will be running against Trump in 2020.  His support is strong, wide, and deep.  That will be hard to beat.
Title: Re: Who should be the Democratic nominee for President in 2020?
Post by: sidd on May 03, 2019, 02:49:39 AM
Trump on Biden, Sanders: Biden not leftist enuf

"I think Biden would be easier "

"One thing I do have in common with Bernie is trade"

https://www.breitbart.com/politics/2019/05/02/donald-trump-joe-biden-not-radical-left-enough-win-democrats/

sidd
Title: Re: Who should be the Democratic nominee for President in 2020?
Post by: Klondike Kat on May 03, 2019, 03:57:18 PM
Trump on Biden, Sanders: Biden not leftist enuf

"I think Biden would be easier "

"One thing I do have in common with Bernie is trade"

https://www.breitbart.com/politics/2019/05/02/donald-trump-joe-biden-not-radical-left-enough-win-democrats/

sidd

i think Trump is afraid of Biden, and is just saying this to get Democratic voters to choose any of the other candidates.  I believe he secretly wants to run against one of the more radical candidates, who he feels he can beat easily.  Just my opinion.
Title: Re: Who should be the Democratic nominee for President in 2020?
Post by: b_lumenkraft on May 04, 2019, 06:51:43 AM
Data-Guy Nate Silver Smears Bernie Sanders Without Data

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kd3aycXrkB8
Title: Re: Who should be the Democratic nominee for President in 2020?
Post by: sidd on May 13, 2019, 06:14:06 AM
Tracey argues that Biden is set: nomination is his to lose

" ... his rivals will have to challenge the Obama/Biden legacy in order to dispel Biden’s mystique. And that will be an exceptionally difficult line to walk; attacking Obama risks alienating a huge portion of the primary electorate who aren’t interested in rehashing the Libya intervention or the Affordable Care Act. They just want Trump out. And into that void steps trusty old Joe."

https://spectator.us/joe-biden-2020-blow/

Halle extends the argument:

"Biden is not required to win a majority of delegates in order to receive the nomination. All that is necessary is to keep Sanders from winning a majority. This will lead to a brokered convention where a decision will be made by party insiders whose hatred for Sanders is a matter of record."

"Biden’s ally in this scenario is an unlikely one namely Elizabeth Warren. While few of her supporters recognize it, Warren has the potential to draw enough support away from Sanders in key progressive states denying Sanders the margin he will need for a first ballot victory. "

https://johnhalle.com/obamamania-and-its-legacy-why-biden-leads/

I think they both overestimate the Obama effect in favor of Biden. At this stage, my feeling is that Warren will bow out and endorse Sanders if she sees Biden taking it in a brokered election.

Unfortunately, I fear the Democratic powers that be would rather lose with Biden than win with Sanders.

sidd

Title: Re: Who should be the Democratic nominee for President in 2020?
Post by: b_lumenkraft on May 13, 2019, 07:31:28 AM
Unfortunately, I fear the Democratic powers that be would rather lose with Biden than win with Sanders.

... because they are paid by the same people than the other party. The donors dictate politics, no matter which party is elected. Only a candidate not taking corporate money can break this system.
Title: Re: Who should be the Democratic nominee for President in 2020?
Post by: Klondike Kat on May 13, 2019, 03:30:53 PM
Unfortunately, I fear the Democratic powers that be would rather lose with Biden than win with Sanders.

... because they are paid by the same people than the other party. The donors dictate politics, no matter which party is elected. Only a candidate not taking corporate money can break this system.

I disagree.  I feel that the Democratic powers believe they can win with Biden, and not Sanders.  Tying him to Obama will be a big plus in his campaign, and gives him a huge advantage over the other candidates.  At this point, I feel that there will not be a brokered convention, and he will win the required number of delegates in advance.  The 15% threshold for allocating delegates during the primary is likely to diminish the delegate count for the contenders.
Title: Re: Who should be the Democratic nominee for President in 2020?
Post by: b_lumenkraft on May 13, 2019, 03:49:16 PM
I disagree.  I feel that the Democratic powers believe they can win with Biden, and not Sanders.  Tying him to Obama will be a big plus in his campaign, and gives him a huge advantage over the other candidates.  At this point, I feel that there will not be a brokered convention, and he will win the required number of delegates in advance.  The 15% threshold for allocating delegates during the primary is likely to diminish the delegate count for the contenders.

They favour Biden because with him the US maintains the status quo should he become elected. Just like Trump would never oppose the status quo, since this would end his presidency.


 
Title: Re: Who should be the Democratic nominee for President in 2020?
Post by: b_lumenkraft on May 14, 2019, 11:30:07 AM
Quote
It's time to end all subsidies for oil and gas companies.

These companies lied to the American people about the very existence of climate change. They committed one of the greatest frauds in our history.

When we are in White House we'll rapidly transition to renewable energy.

Link >> https://twitter.com/BernieSanders/status/1128098882532118528
Title: Re: Who should be the Democratic nominee for President in 2020?
Post by: sidd on May 14, 2019, 11:07:59 PM
On the road with Bernie: Taibbi looks at the Sanders campaign

"candidate Trump in 2015-16 often borrowed from Sanders-esque critiques about corporate power; he even regularly made it a point to praise Sanders in speeches."

"But Sanders no longer has the breeze of low expectations at his back. What was merely a lack of institutional support in 2016 has transformed into active institutional opposition. Among the donor class, his own party’s leadership and in most of the commercial media, he is roundly despised. He is blamed often for Clinton’s 2016 loss, and denounced as a dangerous socialist, a narcissist obstructionist, even the Kremlin’s candidate. (Multiple Washington Post columns have claimed Vladimir Putin is pushing the Sanders campaign in order to help “elect Trump.”) "

" He and many members of his staff also believe that on issues like climate change, the country can’t afford to wait out either another Republican or corporate-backed Democratic presidency. Ultimately, the calculation was no more message campaigns. Sanders not only has to run, he has to run and win."

"Of course, to win, he’d essentially have to overturn the whole political system — two parties, big-dollar donors and the media. "

" we’re not just taking on Donald Trump. We’re also taking on the corporate establishment, the Democratic establishment, the drug companies, the health insurance companies, Wall Street. . . ."

"The Sanders campaign’s point of view is that Bernie’s voters are the party’s authentic base, or at least were, once upon a time. "

"They believe Democrats don’t have a problem with working-class white voters, but a problem with working-class voters of all races and backgrounds — lost to the party over the years due to frustrations with free-trade policies, a 50-year decline in real wages, disillusionment with bipartisan-supported foreign wars and their costs for military families, failure to regulate an increasingly exploitative financial-services sector, exploding incarceration rates "

"it is about using the vote to forcibly detach the Democratic Party from corporate donors, to return it to its roots as a labor-dominated organization."

" an all-labor, no-corporate-money run is the closest thing to guerrilla politics you’ll see on an American campaign trail. It couldn’t actually work, could it?"

" Biden is exactly the sort of Democrat that for decades has traded working-class votes for employer-class donations. "

"Biden’s schizoid approach is a perfect expression of the counterintuitive electoral dynamic between unions and Democrats. "

"I think there are a few people who watched who are working two to three jobs, who have nothing set aside for retirement, and they’re wondering: Who cares about us? "

"both the strength and weakness of Sanders is his relentless sameness."

"What Turner says about Sanders never being bought off is true, if only because if the senator tried to sell out, he wouldn’t know where to start and would suck at it. He’s also never tried shutting up, and probably couldn’t do that, either."

"For Sanders to win, all his voters have to do is overthrow basically the entire political system, which would be ridiculous except that all the other options may be worse: "

https://www.rollingstone.com/politics/politics-features/bernie-sanders-campaign-trail-taibbi-833386/

sidd
Title: Re: Who should be the Democratic nominee for President in 2020?
Post by: seancoulter on May 15, 2019, 09:15:53 AM
From my point of view, Joe Biden is the best choice not only for Democrats but for the entire country. Only he can win the election over D. Trump. Not Bernie Sanders with his socialist principles. And not some Beto O'Rourke. 
Title: Re: Who should be the Democratic nominee for President in 2020?
Post by: b_lumenkraft on May 15, 2019, 09:21:31 AM
Sean, why do you think that? Is Biden better on the issues? If so which ones and why? Or because of his name recognition? Or something else?
Title: Re: Who should be the Democratic nominee for President in 2020?
Post by: b_lumenkraft on May 16, 2019, 07:33:51 AM
Did Joe Biden Take A Blow To The Head?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e-N-EpwNZr8
Title: Re: Who should be the Democratic nominee for President in 2020?
Post by: b_lumenkraft on May 16, 2019, 01:26:25 PM
4 More Democratic Primary Polls! May 2019 - Democratic Presidential Candidates 2020

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vOvSYIQJ2M4
Title: Re: Who should be the Democratic nominee for President in 2020?
Post by: b_lumenkraft on May 16, 2019, 04:31:41 PM
Let's talk about the candidate who can beat Trump...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xfGxX9EXHsg
Title: Re: Who should be the Democratic nominee for President in 2020?
Post by: sidd on May 17, 2019, 02:05:23 AM
Another NYC mayor jumps on the bus. Gonna need a double decker.

https://www.chicagotribune.com/nation-world/ct-new-york-city-mayor-bill-deblasio-2020-president-20190516-story.html

sidd
Title: Re: Who should be the Democratic nominee for President in 2020?
Post by: b_lumenkraft on May 17, 2019, 01:00:41 PM
Biden Assures Rich Donors He'll Protect Them From Bernie's Taxes

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ewI7u-O1Nb8
Title: Re: Who should be the Democratic nominee for President in 2020?
Post by: b_lumenkraft on May 17, 2019, 02:16:32 PM
Is Biden Even More Out Of Touch Than Hillary Clinton? ft. Emma Vigeland


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0rQD5f_RvyA
Title: Re: Who should be the Democratic nominee for President in 2020?
Post by: Ken Feldman on May 17, 2019, 11:06:54 PM
The Democratic Party has new rules for caucuses and primaries this year that have lead to many states switching from caucuses to primaries.

https://fivethirtyeight.com/features/how-will-democrats-move-away-from-caucuses-affect-the-2020-race/ (https://fivethirtyeight.com/features/how-will-democrats-move-away-from-caucuses-affect-the-2020-race/)

Quote
But party reforms have also led to the increased use of primaries in 2020. Specifically, the DNC delegate-selection rules now say that state parties should try to use government-run primaries if they are available. And if a state party doesn’t have that option, party-run events (including caucuses) are required to allow absentee or early voting and same-day voter registration, plus implement procedures for recounts. For a state such as Washington, which was by far the largest caucus state by population in 2016, it was much easier to meet these rule changes by using Washington’s government-run primary than by adapting its caucuses.

Quote
Of course, increased voter turnout could change which candidates benefit — or suffer — from that voting system. “The conventional wisdom is that caucuses favor more ideological candidates,” said Kamarck. Understandably, then, of the 2020 Democratic presidential field, Sanders is the candidate who’s often named as most likely to take a hit. In 2016, he won all 10 caucus states that are moving to some type of primary in 2020, though the field was far smaller in 2016, when most caucuses were head-to-head matchups between Sanders and Clinton. That said, Sanders probably owes some of his success in the caucuses to the fact that these low-turnout events tend to reward candidates who have strongly ideological and deeply committed supporters, and the move toward more primaries could erode that advantage.

Bernie Sanders won the caucus in Washington in 2016, 72% to 18%.  There was also a primary that didn't count, and Hillary Clinton won that 52% to 48%.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2016_Washington_Democratic_caucuses (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2016_Washington_Democratic_caucuses)
Title: Re: Who should be the Democratic nominee for President in 2020?
Post by: Ken Feldman on May 18, 2019, 12:19:54 AM
Let's talk about the candidate who can beat Trump...

...

Here's another way of looking at the "electability issue".

https://washingtonmonthly.com/2019/05/12/what-if-electability-is-more-about-authenticity-than-moderation/ (https://washingtonmonthly.com/2019/05/12/what-if-electability-is-more-about-authenticity-than-moderation/)

Quote
There is a big disconnect in Democratic politics right now. On the one hand, a majority of Democratic primary voters are backing Biden at this early date—not because he lines up with their policy preferences, but because they believe he’s the safest and most electable choice.

Meanwhile, we continue to see stories of Trump voters gravitating not toward centrist candidates like Biden, but toward more progressive politicians like Elizabeth Warren and even Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez. Take this excerpt from Politico, for instance:

"It was a startling spectacle in the heart of Trump country: At least a dozen supporters of the president — some wearing MAGA stickers — nodding their heads, at times even clapping, for liberal firebrand Elizabeth Warren.

The sighting alone of a Democratic presidential candidate in this town of fewer than 400 people — in a county where more than four in five voters cast their ballot for Trump in 2016 — was unusual. Warren’s team was apprehensive about how she’d be received."

Quote
One hallmark of these types of voters is that they strongly distrust politicians and the political system in general, believing that all politicians tell people whatever they want to hear while actually doing the bidding of special interest groups. They believe, not entirely incorrectly, that the whole system is corrupt. They despise partisan bickering—not because they believe that Congress needs more “moderate” peacemakers, but because they believe the bickering is an artifact of corrupt interest groups setting their lackeys against one another. When they say they want less partisanship, that doesn’t mean they want politicians from both sides of the aisle to come together to enact moderate policies. Many of these voters, after all, are not that informed about policy nuances or where the parties stand: some don’t even know which political party is the stronger defender of Medicare! Rather, they want politicians who they view as authentically placing the interests of real people ahead of corrupt special interests. The policy specifics are secondary to that. One of the great ironies of the 2016 election is that the famously corrupt and probably financially compromised Donald Trump somehow convinced a large number of people that he was so rich that he couldn’t be bought, and knew where all the loopholes were.

This is where candidates like Warren and Ocasio-Cortez can make a serious dent in Trump’s base. By being authentically themselves and speaking in plain English about the problems facing Americans, by talking clearly about the ways the wealthy warp the political system and exposing their opponents as corrupted agents of special interest money, they have a better shot than most at peeling off what few persuadable cross-pressured voters remain in the electorate. They can also inspire non-voters who have given up on the political system to give it one more chance. They likely have a much better chance of doing so than nominating moderate politicians who carefully parse their words and speak only in the most carefully poll-tested language.

It may well be, in other words, that Democrats have been getting electability wrong for decades now, and that the biggest obstacle facing Democratic voters is their mistaken belief in a silent majority of voters more conservative than themselves. It may well be that the same candidates who appeal authentically to progressive emotional sensibilities will also appeal to the voters Democrats most need to persuade in the purple districts and states they need to win. At the same time, they might just be the ones to bring out people who otherwise wouldn’t vote at all.
Title: Re: Who should be the Democratic nominee for President in 2020?
Post by: b_lumenkraft on May 18, 2019, 05:20:27 AM
It may well be, in other words, that Democrats have been getting electability wrong for decades now,

Yep!
Title: Re: Who should be the Democratic nominee for President in 2020?
Post by: b_lumenkraft on May 19, 2019, 05:11:37 PM
The New York Times Exposed For Sabotaging Bernie Sanders 2020

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sRo4dQ3mm1w
Title: Re: Who should be the Democratic nominee for President in 2020?
Post by: sidd on May 20, 2019, 06:38:34 AM
I was torn between posting this on the media thread or this one. Behold all ye ladies, gentlemen and other gender persuasions a great example of the oldfashioned, yellow journalism hit piece. Markay at dailybeast:

"campaign ... underwritten by some of the nation’s leading Russophiles ... is one of her party’s more Russia-friendly voices ... financial support from prominent pro-Russian voices ... the nation’s leading intellectual apologist for Russian president ... have long worked to improve U.S.-Russia relations ... outspoken Putin supporter ... routinely promotes the Russian government line ... toe the Kremlin line ... attitude of a small set of the American left wing"

And throw in a bit of KKK as a garnish:

"former KKK leader, has heaped praise on her ... white supremacist, has tweeted favorably"

In fifty years or more, Markay might develop to get as good as say, Taibbi in his epic takedown of Friedman. But I doubt it.

I would link to the piece, but trust me, it isn't worth reading. Like I said, mebbe in fifty years, if markay is still around.

If you were wondering why it's on this thread, it's about Gabbard.

sidd

Title: Re: Who should be the Democratic nominee for President in 2020?
Post by: Rich on May 20, 2019, 08:31:56 AM
At this point, it looks like the race is going to whittle down to Biden vs. Sanders who are the two candidates who poll ahead of Trump head to head by the biggest margins.

Buttigieg had a nice moment, but he polls worst among the higher polling candidates vs Trump in a GE matchup and has almost no support among black voters.

Harris is a formidable candidate, but beating Trump is paramount and strength in States like PA, WI, MI don't seem to be her calling card.

Warren has been coming on impressively but she isn't even leading in her home state of MA. If she somehow pulls off a miracle and surpasses Sanders by Iowa, I'm pretty sure that Sanders would drop out and offer he his full throated support. I'm not sure that she would return the favor.

Whichever of Sanders or Warren prevails among progressives will gain the endorsement of AOC.

The endorsements of the candidates who drop out will be tricky.

Sanders and AOC represent the future of the party with dominant share among young voters. If a candidate endorses Biden, that's not going to position them well for future elections.

From all indications, Buttigieg is auditioning for a role in a Biden Administration and will endorse accordingly. His career mobility in Indiana state politics is limited.

What will Harris do? I'm guessing Biden or Bernie would offer VP or AG in return for an endorsement. If she wants to remain in the Senate, it would be good to note that CA is more progressive than the country as a whole.

Warren disappointed a lot of progressives by not endorsing Bernie in 2016. If she and Bernie and AOC are a tag team vs. Biden, they have a shot.

I see a lot of people worried about the crowded field and the possibility of a brokered convention. I think that's misplaced. The 15% viability threshold will thin the field very quickly. 

Title: Re: Who should be the Democratic nominee for President in 2020?
Post by: b_lumenkraft on May 20, 2019, 09:11:00 AM
That's a good analysis, Rich.

Let me add, IMHO voter turnout will win or lose this election. When the Democratic candidate is Biden, young voters and progressives will not vote at all. American lefties are sick and tired of voting for the lesser evil. They want a reasonable candidate for once. One, they can burn for, or else they will just not bother to show up on election day.
Title: Re: Who should be the Democratic nominee for President in 2020?
Post by: ASILurker on May 20, 2019, 11:12:37 AM
Middle of last year I still had some hope for a positive change in the US (eg an honest good  Dem President in 2020 with a real agenda) via a reinvigorated more ethic democratic party due to the positive influences of in and out of the Party that generally supported the ideas and IDEALS of the "do something about climate and the war mongering asap" Bernie AOC Tulsi Warren types and the like (not picking sides).

Then the 2018 election came and went, GND came and went, the Russiagate mueller report came and went and I've simply been "observing" it all from afar.   

Today on 2019-05-20 it's a lost cause. So go out on a limb and I'll call it now
- Donald Trump will win the 2020 General Election
- GOP will hold the Senate and
- GOP will win the House of Reps back (or miss by only a very small margin.) 

Who the Dem. Nominee is is irrelevant - makes no difference at all.  They've already lost.
Title: Re: Who should be the Democratic nominee for President in 2020?
Post by: ASILurker on May 20, 2019, 11:35:55 AM
No, no need to jump up in anger or jump off the bridge in despair. Because that will be a good thing (in hindsight) long term. Because the backlash, "the revolution", will also begin in 2020.

By the time the dust settles and 2030 comes around, everyone on Earth (even Americans) will be more firmly grounded in reality - the GOP and the Democratic Party will have both been consigned to the dustbin of history. And most if not all of Elon Musk's Teslas would have been stripped clean and/or melted down for scrap. The bonnet logo will be the only collector's item worth a dime.

Much like has just happened in the Ukraine the 2024 President elect will be someone more like a "Jerry Seinfeld" - and that "shift" will prove to be a very very good thing for America long term.
 
As the shampoo advert goes: "It won't happen overnight, but it will happen!"
Title: Re: Who should be the Democratic nominee for President in 2020?
Post by: b_lumenkraft on May 20, 2019, 12:02:46 PM
Let's imagine this for a minute, where the world moves on, and orange Mussolini gets 4 more years of destroying the American economy, agro-sector, trade relationships, allies, etc. A world that has moved on to mostly renewable energy and the US still in the fossil world, how will America catch up? The county is no more competitive. This means a downward spiral from there on.

In this scenario Lurk, the time runs out for the US and i can't see that as a positive thing.
Title: Re: Who should be the Democratic nominee for President in 2020?
Post by: Klondike Kat on May 20, 2019, 02:14:23 PM
That's a good analysis, Rich.

Let me add, IMHO voter turnout will win or lose this election. When the Democratic candidate is Biden, young voters and progressives will not vote at all. American lefties are sick and tired of voting for the lesser evil. They want a reasonable candidate for once. One, they can burn for, or else they will just not bother to show up on election day.

I will disagree.  I believe that the lefties will vote for Biden over Trump, instead of abstaining.  Similar to what the righties did in 2016 for Trump.  Biden will draw more of the middle-of-the-road vote than Sanders, and decrease Trump's total.  Trump is closer to these middle road voters than Sanders, which could present a large issue for the Democratic Party.  Hence, I feel that Biden has the better chance of winning in 2020.
Title: Re: Who should be the Democratic nominee for President in 2020?
Post by: Rich on May 20, 2019, 09:50:34 PM
I try to approach things scientifically.

If Biden and Sanders are both at or near double digit leads vs. Trump in WI, MI and PA, then I believe either one will knock him off in the GE.

Each of the supporters of Sanders and Biden will try to make the case that the other would lose a GE but I don't buy either. Lumenkraft has some validity in his comment that some young and poor voters won't vote for Biden but there are also people who don't like Sanders who won't show up for him. They balance each other out. 

Trump won't be able to run the same campaign in 2020 that he did in 2016. He said he would drain the swamp and instead has sold every decision to the highest bidder. America is slowly getting more savvy about climate change and the Yale Surveys have shown a double digit increase in acceptance of AGW. I'm not a big fan of Biden's, but I recognize that he doesn't inspire as many people to dislike him as Clinton did.

Beside my big obvious concern with climate change, the big systemic issue in America is inequality. The Gini coefficient is at an all-time high. The US is no longer a functional democracy. Congress legislates for the bug donors regardless of popular support. How else do we lose net neutrality which has 90% public support?

Trump won't by running against the establishment of both parties which both remain unpopular. He has governed as an establishment Republican and lost some cred.

I'm hoping that Sanders will win. I'd like to see the end of profiteering in health insurance and he's willing to stick a fork in the fossil fuel industry and military budget. If Biden wins and nothing significant is done to address inequality during his term, the country will become vulnerable to a more competent fascist than Trump.

Title: Re: Who should be the Democratic nominee for President in 2020?
Post by: ASILurker on May 21, 2019, 05:32:36 AM
Let's imagine this for a minute, where the world moves on, and orange Mussolini gets 4 more years of destroying the American economy, agro-sector, trade relationships, allies, etc. A world that has moved on to mostly renewable energy and the US still in the fossil world, how will America catch up? The county is no more competitive. This means a downward spiral from there on.

In this scenario Lurk, the time runs out for the US and i can't see that as a positive thing.

Besdies my other comments which lay out a very possible (I'd say more likely) scenario to come,

the thing I didn't include was the #1 Problem all those who dream of a Progressive wave or Bernie totlaly ignore and have no answe to.

It is UN-Patriotic and UN-American to criticise or Vote out of Office a sitting U.S. President during War Time. It's never happened before and it won't happen in 2020 either.
Title: Re: Who should be the Democratic nominee for President in 2020?
Post by: Rich on May 21, 2019, 01:20:49 PM
Let's imagine this for a minute, where the world moves on, and orange Mussolini gets 4 more years of destroying the American economy, agro-sector, trade relationships, allies, etc. A world that has moved on to mostly renewable energy and the US still in the fossil world, how will America catch up? The county is no more competitive. This means a downward spiral from there on.

In this scenario Lurk, the time runs out for the US and i can't see that as a positive thing.

Besdies my other comments which lay out a very possible (I'd say more likely) scenario to come,

the thing I didn't include was the #1 Problem all those who dream of a Progressive wave or Bernie totlaly ignore and have no answe to.

It is UN-Patriotic and UN-American to criticise or Vote out of Office a sitting U.S. President during War Time. It's never happened before and it won't happen in 2020 either.

LBJ got the message that he was no longer welcome as a result of Vietnam and took the hint and drooped out.

Trump isn't going to win any swing votes by starting a war. Democrats won the 2018 midterms by 8-9 million votes. Trump actually being on the ballot is going to be a huge blue motivator.
Title: Re: Who should be the Democratic nominee for President in 2020?
Post by: b_lumenkraft on May 25, 2019, 04:02:26 PM
Best Case Map for Bernie - Bernie Sanders vs. Donald Trump 2020 Map Prediction

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EikX7HKjuoo
Title: Re: Who should be the Democratic nominee for President in 2020?
Post by: b_lumenkraft on May 26, 2019, 05:01:50 PM
Republican Voters Seem To Love “Socialist” Policies

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C-W4xDahk-U
Title: Re: Who should be the Democratic nominee for President in 2020?
Post by: Klondike Kat on May 28, 2019, 03:04:18 PM
Best Case Map for Bernie - Bernie Sanders vs. Donald Trump 2020 Map Prediction

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EikX7HKjuoo

Before you start celebrating, you might want to view the state-by-state approval rating of Obama in 2012:

https://news.gallup.com/poll/156389/thirteen-states-give-obama-majority-approval.aspx

Obama would've totaled 175 EVs based on his approval rating alone.  On election night, he won 332!
Title: Re: Who should be the Democratic nominee for President in 2020?
Post by: b_lumenkraft on May 28, 2019, 03:18:41 PM
Sorry, i fail to see the point you are making Kat. Do you think, Bernie has to expect more votes than estimated in the video?
Title: Re: Who should be the Democratic nominee for President in 2020?
Post by: Klondike Kat on May 28, 2019, 07:06:33 PM
Sorry, i fail to see the point you are making Kat. Do you think, Bernie has to expect more votes than estimated in the video?

No, quite the opposite.  I would expect him to win less, much less.

Prior to the 2012 election, Obama had an overall favorable rating in just 13 states (plus D.C.), totaling 175 electoral votes.  He had an unfavorable rating in the rest, states totaling 363 electoral votes.  The video you presented uses the same logic:  Trump has an unfavorable rating in states totaling 358 electoral votes.  Claiming that Sanders would win these states and the election, is akin to claiming that Romney would win all those states and unseat Obama.  Obviously that did not happen, and is unlikely to happen in 2020. 
Title: Re: Who should be the Democratic nominee for President in 2020?
Post by: b_lumenkraft on May 28, 2019, 07:35:08 PM
Kat, you are the one confronting people when they cherry-pick. Could it be you are cherry picking right now yourself?

The title of the video is 'best case' scenario, right? I'm not saying the video is 100% correct and he is making the right assumption for every state. But assumptions made are not unreasonable. There is a lot of time until the elections. A lot will happen.
Title: Re: Who should be the Democratic nominee for President in 2020?
Post by: Klondike Kat on May 28, 2019, 08:03:15 PM
Kat, you are the one confronting people when they cherry-pick. Could it be you are cherry picking right now yourself?

The title of the video is 'best case' scenario, right? I'm not saying the video is 100% correct and he is making the right assumption for every state. But assumptions made are not unreasonable. There is a lot of time until the elections. A lot will happen.

Both instances are similar, whether you call it cherry picking or whatever.  Sure, it is the best possible case for Sanders, but I disagree that the assumptions are not unreasonable.
Title: Re: Who should be the Democratic nominee for President in 2020?
Post by: b_lumenkraft on May 29, 2019, 02:32:37 PM
Quote
So basically Biden’s campaign team hid him away for q0 days to limit his exposure and on his very first day back he does this:

Quote
In a somewhat odd moment at tonight's AFT town hall, Biden tells a 10-year-old girl, “I’ll bet you’re as bright as you are good-looking." He takes her over to the assembled reporters, then stands behind her and puts his hands on her shoulders while he's talking.

https://mobile.twitter.com/greg06897/status/1133513917681098752
 
Title: Re: Who should be the Democratic nominee for President in 2020?
Post by: Klondike Kat on May 29, 2019, 11:13:57 PM
Quote
So basically Biden’s campaign team hid him away for q0 days to limit his exposure and on his very first day back he does this:

Quote
In a somewhat odd moment at tonight's AFT town hall, Biden tells a 10-year-old girl, “I’ll bet you’re as bright as you are good-looking." He takes her over to the assembled reporters, then stands behind her and puts his hands on her shoulders while he's talking.

https://mobile.twitter.com/greg06897/status/1133513917681098752

This is typical Biden - just like the old kissing babies photo ops.
Title: Re: Who should be the Democratic nominee for President in 2020?
Post by: Neven on May 29, 2019, 11:16:20 PM
But everything will be done to force people to choose between creepy Biden and maniac Trump. Just like last time. And if you don't vote for creepy corrupt neoliberal Biden, well, that's just deplorable and inexcusable.
Title: Re: Who should be the Democratic nominee for President in 2020?
Post by: interstitial on May 30, 2019, 03:43:19 AM
Agreed Neven another choice between bad and horrible and since our government has restrictions that make it difficult for a third party there is little chance of throwing the bastards out. 
Title: Re: Who should be the Democratic nominee for President in 2020?
Post by: b_lumenkraft on May 30, 2019, 03:44:29 PM
Will the DNC think twice about handing him the nomination? Also no.

Title: Re: Who should be the Democratic nominee for President in 2020?
Post by: interstitial on May 30, 2019, 06:44:04 PM
This was OT in climate change, the ocean, agriculture and food so I posting my response in who should be democratic nominee for president in 2020
  Note that the financial "bailout" was loans that, overall, were repaid with interest.  The taxpayer made a net profit.  And the world avoided a domino effect of bank failures that would have made the Great Recession look like a picnic.
If all the banks needed were loans the Federal Reserve would have supplied the money and congress would not have been involved. That is what the Federal Reserve does is loan banks money. Banks made a lot of loans to people they knew couldn't afford them. They didn't care if people borrowed too much money because they bundled them up with good loans and sold them on the market as mortgage backed securities. They made more money in fees the more people borrowed. As long as the security didn't go below the original loan amount, its called breaking the buck, the financial institutions were fine. Once it did they were responsible for the difference. The banks knew this mess would hit them so they donated a record amount to politicians the previous election cycle. When it became obvious to wall street that these mortgage backed securities had too many bad loans in them the market turned down and Lehman brothers was the first institution to owe more money on these securities then the company was worth and they went bankrupt. Problem is these mortgage backed securities were repackaged with each repackaging the financial institutions made more money but also became liable if the security broke the buck. Once one firm went down all institutions that made these securities would go bankrupt. The next day congress gets a huge and complex bailout package to vote on that was clearly created long before the previous day. Before congress is allowed to look at the bill they are asked to vote on it without debate. The bailout basically had the banks identify the questionable loans and sell them to Fredie Mac. Fredie Mac is a quasi-government institution and congress footed the bill. That was the troubled asset relief program. While not all of those loans defaulted and some money was recovered by foreclosing.
So far unwinding those bad loans has cost taxpayers 8.5 trillion dollars.
https://www.caseyresearch.com/articles/real-cost-2008-recession-12908/ (https://www.caseyresearch.com/articles/real-cost-2008-recession-12908/)
That still makes me angry.
Except for Lehman brothers all the other financial institutions got off with only some increased regulation. They made a profit the following quarter. A short time later congress quietly gutted most of the new rules.
Ironically in anticipation of all this banks pushed for stricter bankruptcy laws for individuals to recover more money
Elizabeth Warren fought the 2005 bankruptcy act for individuals and made a forceful stance for stricter banking regulations knowing that the regulations put in place were insufficient to stop the same thing from happening again. She upset big money fighting for the common person and that is why I think she would make a great president. Unfortunately I doubt she will get the nomination because she pissed off big money.
Title: Re: Who should be the Democratic nominee for President in 2020?
Post by: b_lumenkraft on May 30, 2019, 07:51:42 PM
It strikes me we need a 'economics in the context of climate change' thread Interstitial. ;)
Title: Re: Who should be the Democratic nominee for President in 2020?
Post by: b_lumenkraft on May 30, 2019, 07:52:24 PM
Principles!
Title: Re: Who should be the Democratic nominee for President in 2020?
Post by: interstitial on May 30, 2019, 07:56:14 PM
It strikes me we need a 'economics in the context of climate change' thread Interstitial. ;)
Well it was closer than  ocean...
Title: Re: Who should be the Democratic nominee for President in 2020?
Post by: b_lumenkraft on May 30, 2019, 08:00:53 PM
Right. And you even dropped the word 'Warren' in there to make it fit. I do see the effort. Well done.  ;D

Edit: There is already one!
Taking the freedom to x-post this interesting post from Interstitial to give it it's designated home.
Title: Re: Who should be the Democratic nominee for President in 2020?
Post by: b_lumenkraft on June 01, 2019, 07:01:22 PM
Did Biden Endorse Cutting Social Security and Medicare? ft. Brandon Sutton

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4LowCay6TcM
Title: Re: Who should be the Democratic nominee for President in 2020?
Post by: b_lumenkraft on June 02, 2019, 11:13:13 AM
Best Case Map for Trump - Donald Trump vs. Bernie Sanders 2020 Map Prediction

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4r7ipAxJ5us
Title: Re: Who should be the Democratic nominee for President in 2020?
Post by: b_lumenkraft on June 02, 2019, 02:45:27 PM
Democratic candidate for the presidency:

Quote
“As Democrats, if we don’t define a clear space between us and socialism, we run the risk of helping to reelect the worst president in American history,”

Crowd:

Quote
BOOOOOOO

Link >> https://twitter.com/daveweigel/status/1134940635629215745

Quote
Hickenlooper booed at #CADem19 for attacking socialism, which he surely expected

Don't tell me there is hope for America!
Title: Re: Who should be the Democratic nominee for President in 2020?
Post by: Rich on June 03, 2019, 02:31:31 PM
I'd like to see Sanders and Warren run as a tag team. Whichever one has the better showing in Iowa gets the top of the ticket and the other gets whatever role they want in the next administration.

Title: Re: Who should be the Democratic nominee for President in 2020?
Post by: b_lumenkraft on June 04, 2019, 06:19:47 AM
Biden Tanking In The Polls - Here's Why

Video shows Biden for the person he is: A bigot, a racist, a misanthrope! Just like the acting president. Why would Dems bother voting if he becomes the candidate?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RbODDQ95puM
Title: Re: Who should be the Democratic nominee for President in 2020?
Post by: Klondike Kat on June 04, 2019, 02:46:35 PM
Tanking? 
The three polls so far this week (Harvard Harris, The Hill/Harris, and the Morning Consult) have him polling at 36, 35, and 38%.  Both the Harris poll and Monmouth had him polling at 33% two weeks ago.  Quinnipiac and Fox News had him at 35%.  The Morning Consult was at 38% last week and 39% the two previous weeks.  Is that 1% drop your definition of tanking?
Title: Re: Who should be the Democratic nominee for President in 2020?
Post by: Tom_Mazanec on June 04, 2019, 05:38:08 PM
Democrat candidate positions on AGW:
https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/powerpost/paloma/the-energy-202/2019/06/03/the-energy-202-we-asked-every-2020-democrat-about-climate-change-here-are-the-most-interesting-answers/5cf43e95a7a0a46b92a3ff52/?utm_term=.43f3d521e815
Title: Re: Who should be the Democratic nominee for President in 2020?
Post by: b_lumenkraft on June 05, 2019, 11:55:45 AM
2 More Democratic Primary Polls! June 2019 - Bernie Gaining on Biden?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oWHIOaMTjM8
Title: Re: Who should be the Democratic nominee for President in 2020?
Post by: Klondike Kat on June 05, 2019, 03:32:39 PM
Bernie has a long way to go, as his polling numbers are significantly lower than they were earlier this year.  It looks as if his only chance is for both Warren and Harris to drop out and throw their support to him.  Even if that were to happen (which I do not believe will), that would only bring him even with Biden right now.  Still a long to go, so anything can happen.
Title: Re: Who should be the Democratic nominee for President in 2020?
Post by: b_lumenkraft on June 05, 2019, 03:41:47 PM
Good there is still some time til 2020. ;)
Title: Re: Who should be the Democratic nominee for President in 2020?
Post by: Tom_Mazanec on June 05, 2019, 04:21:01 PM
Inslee's plan the best?
https://www.detroitnews.com/story/news/local/detroit-city/2019/06/04/jay-inslee-hit-detroit-streets-part-climate-action-tour/1330062001/ and
https://thehill.com/policy/energy-environment/446954-ocasio-cortez-calls-jay-inslees-climate-plan-the-gold-standard

AND: Did Biden plagiarize climate plan?
https://www.nationalreview.com/news/joe-biden-climate-change-plan-plagiarism-accusation/
Title: Re: Who should be the Democratic nominee for President in 2020?
Post by: b_lumenkraft on June 05, 2019, 04:50:29 PM
From Toms link:

Quote
This is not the first time a Biden presidential campaign has been interrupted with a plagiarism scandal. In 1988, his bid for the presidency was sunk by accusations that he plagiarized a speech by British politician Neil Kinnock.

I would love to hear him talking about copyright laws.
Title: Re: Who should be the Democratic nominee for President in 2020?
Post by: b_lumenkraft on June 06, 2019, 01:16:58 PM
Joe Biden's Bad Week Just Got MUCH Worse

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kCdEYA6-GbY
Title: Re: Who should be the Democratic nominee for President in 2020?
Post by: Tom_Mazanec on June 06, 2019, 01:42:39 PM
How AGW became a 2020 Democrat issue:
https://www.vox.com/2019/6/5/18652787/climate-change-2020-ocasio-cortez-biden-warren
Biden, Warren give competing plans:
https://www.wsj.com/articles/elizabeth-warren-unveils-2-trillion-plan-for-u-s-to-lead-in-clean-energy-11559655000
Title: Re: Who should be the Democratic nominee for President in 2020?
Post by: b_lumenkraft on June 06, 2019, 01:49:04 PM
From Toms link:

Quote
Over the past eight months, climate change has shot up as a core Democratic issue in polls. Murray noted that while it certainly came up during the 2016 presidential primary and was discussed on the sidelines in 2018, this year marks a noticeable shift.

“If we look at 2016 and even 2018 among Democratic voters, there was a whole host of issues, and climate change was, ‘by the way, what do you think of that?’” Murray said. “It’s no longer an add-on, it’s become a core issue for many voters.”

If correct, about time!
Title: Re: Who should be the Democratic nominee for President in 2020?
Post by: Tom_Mazanec on June 06, 2019, 08:06:50 PM
Maybe not correct, b_lumenkraft (at least not for the Party):
https://pv-magazine-usa.com/2019/06/06/democratic-party-bars-climate-change-debate/
Title: Re: Who should be the Democratic nominee for President in 2020?
Post by: b_lumenkraft on June 06, 2019, 08:20:50 PM
Holy shit!

Quote
The campaign of Democratic presidential contender Jay Inslee reports that the Democratic Party has also told him that if he participates in anyone else’s climate change debate, he will be barred from future debates.

Is the DNC just killing itself?
Title: Re: Who should be the Democratic nominee for President in 2020?
Post by: Tom_Mazanec on June 06, 2019, 08:22:23 PM
Does Ocasio-Cortes' $10,000,000,000,000.00 price tag make her more or less likely to win, ASIFers?
https://thehill.com/policy/finance/447077-ocasio-cortez-10-trillion-needed-for-effective-climate-plan
 
ALSO: Elizabeth Warren's plan:
https://medium.com/@teamwarren/my-green-manufacturing-plan-for-america-fc0ad53ab614
Title: Re: Who should be the Democratic nominee for President in 2020?
Post by: Ken Feldman on June 07, 2019, 01:36:29 AM
Does Ocasio-Cortes' $10,000,000,000,000.00 price tag make her more or less likely to win, ASIFers?
https://thehill.com/policy/finance/447077-ocasio-cortez-10-trillion-needed-for-effective-climate-plan
 
ALSO: Elizabeth Warren's plan:
https://medium.com/@teamwarren/my-green-manufacturing-plan-for-america-fc0ad53ab614

The total size of the US economy is around $20 trillion.  Earlier this year, Democrats were negotiating with President Trump on a $2 trillion infrastructure package.

So energy/infrastructure packages ranging from $2 to $20 trillion, spread over a decade, are not unrealistic.
Title: Re: Who should be the Democratic nominee for President in 2020?
Post by: Ken Feldman on June 07, 2019, 01:55:18 AM
It should be noted that private investment in renewable energy is expected to reach $1 trillion in the US by 2030.

https://www.forbes.com/sites/energyinnovation/2018/07/11/top-renewable-energy-financiers-reveal-pathway-to-1-trillion-in-u-s-investment/#42915dd734b0 (https://www.forbes.com/sites/energyinnovation/2018/07/11/top-renewable-energy-financiers-reveal-pathway-to-1-trillion-in-u-s-investment/#42915dd734b0)

Quote
In this same scenario, respondents predict that cumulative private investment in U.S. renewable energy projects, as well as related investment in enabling grid technology, could hit $1 trillion between 2018 and 2030.

Policy Signals and Market Factors will Drive Investment

As with any investment class, renewable energy investors seek long-term policy certainty. The solar and wind industries already know existing tax credits remain on schedule to phase out after 2021, and federal policy signals will remain important to long-term investor confidence.

Investors say federal action to address climate externalities through carbon pricing and/or a technology-neutral tax credit for zero-carbon electricity generation could encourage growth, which is promising considering the increasing conservative support for a national carbon tax. However, state action is likely to also play a significant role in stimulating demand through ambitious renewable portfolio standards along with siting and permitting process reforms.

So $1 trillion from private renewable energy investments.  Add in Government facilities (such as military bases, large DOE reserves, leases for solar or wind farms on Government owned land) and you could easily double that.

Then look at electrification of vehicle fleets, energy efficiency in buildings, battery storage for renwable power plants, etc...  It wouldn't take much to get to $5 to $10 trillion, especially if you factor in tax breaks for qualifying investments.  Spread it out over 10 years (more likely 8 to 9 to meet the 2030 goals) and it's doable.
Title: Re: Who should be the Democratic nominee for President in 2020?
Post by: Ken Feldman on June 08, 2019, 01:58:13 AM
Also, AOC isn't running for President.  She's only 29 so won't be eligible to serve as President (and thus won't be a candidate for Vice President either) until 2028.  The US constitution requires people serving as President to be at least 35 years old.

She's one of the sponsors of the Green New Deal, so she's pushing the candidates to get more aggressive about their plans to address climate change.
Title: Re: Who should be the Democratic nominee for President in 2020?
Post by: b_lumenkraft on June 08, 2019, 06:40:50 AM
2020-2028 - Bernie
2028-2036 - AOC

Works for me!
Title: Re: Who should be the Democratic nominee for President in 2020?
Post by: b_lumenkraft on June 08, 2019, 08:23:03 AM
Koch Bros To Spend Money On Corporate Democrats

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ts-w14mYNl4
Title: Re: Who should be the Democratic nominee for President in 2020?
Post by: b_lumenkraft on June 08, 2019, 06:15:11 PM
2020 Candidates Asked About Money in Politics

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-zx6qpj2S7M
Title: Re: Who should be the Democratic nominee for President in 2020?
Post by: Tom_Mazanec on June 08, 2019, 06:51:47 PM
Democrats challenge party on AGW debate gag:
https://www.seattlepi.com/local/politics/article/Democrats-challenge-party-for-rejecting-climate-13952366.php

EDIT: And DNC chair says AGW debate "not practical"
https://thehill.com/homenews/campaign/447655-dnc-chair-says-2020-climate-change-debate-is-not-practical-after-being?rnd=1560120709

EDIT 2: Yet more on lack of climate debate:
https://www.rollingstone.com/politics/politics-news/climate-change-debate-democrats-2020-primary-846376/
Title: Re: Who should be the Democratic nominee for President in 2020?
Post by: Rich on June 09, 2019, 02:57:23 AM
Also, AOC isn't running for President.  She's only 29 so won't be eligible to serve as President (and thus won't be a candidate for Vice President either) until 2028.  The US constitution requires people serving as President to be at least 35 years old.

She's one of the sponsors of the Green New Deal, so she's pushing the candidates to get more aggressive about their plans to address climate change.

AOC will turn 35 in October 2024. She would be eligible in the next go round.
Title: Re: Who should be the Democratic nominee for President in 2020?
Post by: sidd on June 11, 2019, 11:17:30 PM
Well hello there: moderators for DNC debate announced

"Savannah Guthrie, Lester Holt, Chuck Todd, Rachel Maddow and José Diaz-Balart will moderate the debate"

https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/2020-election/nbc-announces-five-moderators-first-democratic-debate-n1016106

sidd
Title: Re: Who should be the Democratic nominee for President in 2020?
Post by: sidd on June 11, 2019, 11:21:04 PM
Wai, what ? Salon of all outlets putting the knife into Biden ?

" My anxiety soon passed, but not my foreboding. Clinton would go on decrying Trump and offering herself as a seasoned steward of a system without fundamental flaws. Then she would lose."

" Biden is America’s foremost living proponent of bipartisanship. Why anyone still salutes it is a mystery. The reputation of every big bipartisan "achievement" of the last 30 years is in tatters: NAFTA; the mid-'90s crime and welfare bills; the late-'90s Wall Street deregulation; No Child Left Behind; the bankruptcy bill; the Iraq war. Biden was for every single one of them."

"What Clinton and Biden have most in common is a shared faith in the economic consensus of political elites. It’s a bipartisanship rooted not in civility but in the interests of their donors. It is our most insidious form of corruption; it’s why our government stopped acting in the interests of our people, why our people lost faith in our democracy. It’s the main reason Hillary Clinton lost to Donald Trump."

"In every election the word comes to Democrats from on high: Cancel the debate, circle the wagons, sideline the populists. Most of all, placate the donors. The price we paid for that is President Donald Trump."

https://www.salon.com/2019/06/10/is-joe-biden-the-new-hillary-democrats-must-have-a-real-debate-to-avoid-disaster/

The author: " was White House counselor to President Clinton ... "

sidd
Title: Re: Who should be the Democratic nominee for President in 2020?
Post by: sidd on June 11, 2019, 11:22:47 PM
America's Finest News Source:

" the DNC had gone too far in insisting candidates be able to present a coherent strategy for addressing a single one of the many problems the nation faces"

"party officials confirmed the new debate requirement would not apply to former vice president Joe Biden, who has committed himself to running a policy-free campaign."

https://politics.theonion.com/dnc-criticized-for-overly-restrictive-debate-rules-requ-1835412876

sidd
Title: Re: Who should be the Democratic nominee for President in 2020?
Post by: Tom_Mazanec on June 12, 2019, 06:33:42 PM
Iowa democrats overwhelmingly say AGW vital issue:
https://grist.org/article/cnn-poll-iowa-caucus-climate-change/

EDIT: But Party does not want single debate just on it:
https://insideclimatenews.org/news/12062019/climate-debate-democratic-party-inslee-biden-sanders-perez-dnc-single-issue
Title: Re: Who should be the Democratic nominee for President in 2020?
Post by: Pmt111500 on June 13, 2019, 12:21:41 PM
Thanks sid for the link to onion. Shared to Skeptical Science.
Title: Re: Who should be the Democratic nominee for President in 2020?
Post by: b_lumenkraft on June 13, 2019, 10:07:04 PM
Finally Some Interesting Poll Movement! - 5 More Democratic Primary Polls! June 2019

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8OmjGYZEtis
Title: Re: Who should be the Democratic nominee for President in 2020?
Post by: b_lumenkraft on June 14, 2019, 05:36:12 PM
Out of touch Biden doing his out of touch thing.

(https://i.redd.it/cu56cnoycb431.jpg)
Title: Re: Who should be the Democratic nominee for President in 2020?
Post by: b_lumenkraft on June 15, 2019, 08:40:40 PM
Lee Carter Schools MSNBC On How Democrats Can Win

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iznQnlGtqIU
Title: Re: Who should be the Democratic nominee for President in 2020?
Post by: b_lumenkraft on June 17, 2019, 09:48:00 AM
Quote
A nationwide Fox News poll released Sunday shows President Donald Trump trailing Senator Bernie Sanders, 49% to 40% among all registered voters nationwide.

The Fox poll also showed Biden leading Trump by 49% to 39%. Also beating Trump in the poll were Senators Elizabeth Warren (43%-41%) and Kamala Harris (42%-41%), and Mayor Pete Buttigieg (41%-40%) of South Bend, Indiana.

Yep, that turns out just as i expected. Bernie is your best bet!

(so since 2016, nothing changed on this front)
Title: Re: Who should be the Democratic nominee for President in 2020?
Post by: b_lumenkraft on June 17, 2019, 04:47:28 PM
So this is interesting:

According to this poll [1], there are 4% of DEMOCRATS who would vote for Trump if Biden would become the Democratic nominee.

Now, given the gerrymandering, voter purge, electoral college and all the other anti-democratic measures put in place to favour the Republicans, a Democratic nominee would need a 5-10 points lead over Trump to win the election.

How i see it, in this climate, if Biden wins the Democratic primaries, the likelihood of 4 more years of trumpism is almost guaranteed.

[1] https://www.ipsos.com/sites/default/files/ct/news/documents/2019-06/daily-beast-gender-topline-2019-06-17-v2.pdf
Title: Re: Who should be the Democratic nominee for President in 2020?
Post by: Tom_Mazanec on June 17, 2019, 07:00:26 PM
Still yet more on Democratic Party and climate debates:
https://cleantechnica.com/2019/06/17/dems-get-caught-in-climate-change-controversy-over-upcoming-debates/
and https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/powerpost/paloma/the-energy-202/2019/06/14/the-energy-202-democrats-climate-debate-debate-is-not-going-away/5d026d971ad2e52ca1223d74/?noredirect=on&utm_term=.6467d8c76901
Title: Re: Who should be the Democratic nominee for President in 2020?
Post by: Klondike Kat on June 18, 2019, 03:10:31 AM

Now, given the gerrymandering, voter purge, electoral college and all the other anti-democratic measures put in place to favour the Republicans, a Democratic nominee would need a 5-10 points lead over Trump to win the election.


Gerrymandering  has absolutely no effect on presidential elections.  The National Voter Registration Act of 1993 (passed during the Clinton administration requires states to keep voter registration lists accurate and current.  Experts contend that the electoral college only slightly favors the GOP.  Even with Clinton’s disproportionate support, she needed less than 1% more voters to become president (that would have amount to a 3 pt advantage).  Biden, with more even support, would win with much less.
Title: Re: Who should be the Democratic nominee for President in 2020?
Post by: b_lumenkraft on June 18, 2019, 06:54:03 AM
Kat, who are you trying to kid??

Clinton had 3mio more votes in 2016. Don't tell me the electoral college is democratic.

The voter outcome is a function of money paid for campaigns in like 95% of the time. In the US, you are not elected, but you buy your office.

The US election system is inherently undemocratic and corrupt. It's a sham.

If you don't see that yourself, i can't help you, really! Listen to an expert. Chomsky for example.
Title: Re: Who should be the Democratic nominee for President in 2020?
Post by: Klondike Kat on June 18, 2019, 03:29:51 PM
Kat, who are you trying to kid??

Clinton had 3mio more votes in 2016. Don't tell me the electoral college is democratic.

The voter outcome is a function of money paid for campaigns in like 95% of the time. In the US, you are not elected, but you buy your office.

The US election system is inherently undemocratic and corrupt. It's a sham.

If you don't see that yourself, i can't help you, really! Listen to an expert. Chomsky for example.

Kidding no one.  Just presenting the facts.  I am not refusing your money allegation, but that was not part of your previous claim of undemocratic.  Nor am I refusing your allegation of corruption.  Corruption and politics go hand in hand.  Rather, I was criticizing your other claims; namely that gerrymandering, the voter rolls, and the electoral college are anti-democratic and favor Republicans in the presidential election. 

Over the past 8 elections (4 victories by each party), the electoral college has shown a 1% tilt towards the GOP; meaning that if a Democratic candidates garners 1% more votes than the Republican, each would receive similar EVs.  Last election was an anomaly, as Clinton received 59 fewer EVs that the vote margin would suggest.  The only other recent election that deviated significantly from this trend was 2004, where Kerry received 38 more EVs than the trend line.  Clinton lost three states by less than 1%.  Those three states were worth 46 EVs, enough to win the election.  She also lost Florida by 1.2%.  Your claim of a 5-10 pts bias towards the GOP is unsupported, unless you were referring to the polls, which tend to overstate the support for the Democrats.
Title: Re: Who should be the Democratic nominee for President in 2020?
Post by: b_lumenkraft on June 18, 2019, 03:50:46 PM
I am not refusing your money allegation, but that was not part of your previous claim of undemocratic.

I wrote: "...gerrymandering, voter purge, electoral college and all the other anti-democratic measures..."

Consider the "and all the other anti-democratic measures" part to address my claim.

I added that for a reason. I don't have the time to address all the things. There are just too many.
Title: Re: Who should be the Democratic nominee for President in 2020?
Post by: Tom_Mazanec on June 18, 2019, 10:06:27 PM
POTUS hopefuls want companies to disclose climate risks:
https://www.politico.com/story/2019/06/17/democrats-energy-industry-climate-risk-1483586
Title: Re: Who should be the Democratic nominee for President in 2020?
Post by: b_lumenkraft on June 19, 2019, 01:23:16 PM
(https://i.redd.it/2rfw46e738531.png)
Title: Re: Who should be the Democratic nominee for President in 2020?
Post by: Klondike Kat on June 19, 2019, 03:12:50 PM
I would not put too much faith in those polls.  First, the election is too far off for the polls to be meaningful.  Second, polls one month before the election in 2016 showed Clinton with a larger lead - and we all know how that ended.  Just a few examples from October, 2106:

NBCNews:  Clinton 50%  Trump 40%
Bloomberg:  Clinton 49%  Trump 37%
Quinnipiac:  Clinton 52%  Trump 44%
IPSOS/Reuters:  Clinton 44%  Trump 37%
Fox News:  Clinton 49%  Trump 41%
AP/GfK:  Clinton 54%  Trump 41%
USAToday:  Clinton 49%  Trump 39%

On November 8, 2016, CNN gave Clinton a 91% of winning the election.  The same day, Nate Silvers at 538 predicted that Clinton would win Fla, NC, PA, MI, WI, and NH.  She lost all but NH, which she won by 3,000 votes.  IBD/TIPP was the only outfit that predicted a Trump victory.  IBD/TIPP also tracks economic optimism; which was high in 2004, very low in 2008, turned positive just in time for the 2012 election, and was slightly negative in 2012.  It hit a record high recently.  In the words of Bill Clinton, "it's the economy, stupid."
Title: Re: Who should be the Democratic nominee for President in 2020?
Post by: b_lumenkraft on June 19, 2019, 03:19:02 PM
First: Nate Silver is an utter moron and knows about politics as much as the president knows about sea ice.

Second: Guess who had more votes than Trump. Perhaps the polls weren't so wrong? Perhaps the process is undemocratic?

Title: Re: Who should be the Democratic nominee for President in 2020?
Post by: Tom_Mazanec on June 19, 2019, 03:58:09 PM
First: Nate Silver is an utter moron and knows about politics as much as the president knows about sea ice.

Second: Guess who had more votes than Trump. Perhaps the polls weren't so wrong? Perhaps the process is undemocratic?

It doesn’t matter how democratic it is or isn’t. You project the results based on the game you are playing. Nate projected the winner. All the other pundits said Hillary would win. They were the ones who did not know politics.
Title: Re: Who should be the Democratic nominee for President in 2020?
Post by: b_lumenkraft on June 19, 2019, 04:27:11 PM
Tom, you need to listen to the guy. I listened to his podcast quite a lot. I trust him when it comes to numbers and stats. But when he talks politics, you think you are listening to a 16yo.

Quote
It doesn’t matter how democratic it is or isn’t. You project the results based on the game you are playing.

Democracy is when everyone has a vote and all votes are equal. If one person has the equivalent of many votes, that ain't a democratic anymore. The game is called differently now.
Title: Re: Who should be the Democratic nominee for President in 2020?
Post by: Tom_Mazanec on June 19, 2019, 05:41:38 PM
Klobuchar's first act as POTUS:
https://dailycaller.com/2019/06/18/amy-klobuchar-first-act-climate-change/
DNC missing the boat:
https://www.sierraclub.org/sierra/dnc-missing-boat-climate-change
Title: Re: Who should be the Democratic nominee for President in 2020?
Post by: Tom_Mazanec on June 19, 2019, 05:48:24 PM
Tom, you need to listen to the guy. I listened to his podcast quite a lot. I trust him when it comes to numbers and stats. But when he talks politics, you think you are listening to a 16yo.

Quote
It doesn’t matter how democratic it is or isn’t. You project the results based on the game you are playing.

Democracy is when everyone has a vote and all votes are equal. If one person has the equivalent of many votes, that ain't a democratic anymore. The game is called differently now.

We are not a democracy, we are a republic. In the democracy you describe, if a majority of the citizens wish to kill everyone who speaks with a lisp, so be it.
No system of government is perfect except a true Theocracy, and that won't be until the Parousia.
Title: Re: Who should be the Democratic nominee for President in 2020?
Post by: b_lumenkraft on June 19, 2019, 05:55:17 PM
We are not a democracy, we are a republic.

Your fellow countryman tell me all the time the US is a democracy. What's correct now?

The US is an oligarchy. And yes, a republic can also be an oligarchy.

Quote
In the democracy you describe, if a majority of the citizens wish to kill everyone who speaks with a lisp, so be it.

No, not in the slightest. This statement so far off i don't even intend to answer it.
Title: Re: Who should be the Democratic nominee for President in 2020?
Post by: Tom_Mazanec on June 19, 2019, 11:38:05 PM
We are not a democracy, we are a republic.

Your fellow countryman tell me all the time the US is a democracy. What's correct now?

The US is an oligarchy. And yes, a republic can also be an oligarchy.

Quote
In the democracy you describe, if a majority of the citizens wish to kill everyone who speaks with a lisp, so be it.

No, not in the slightest. This statement so far off i don't even intend to answer it.

As you (briefly) described it, that is a "democracy". Perhaps you could go into more detail on how people who thpeak with a lithp would be protected in your Utopia.
And by your standards, has there ever been a "democracy" (at least one that is not an oligarchy as well)?
Title: Re: Who should be the Democratic nominee for President in 2020?
Post by: b_lumenkraft on June 20, 2019, 05:54:28 AM
As i said above, Tom. "Democracy is when everyone has a vote and all votes are equal." This is not my standard, but the reality in most democratic countries, not utopic!

In the US, there are multiple measures in place, that prevent to have that.

Learn about voter purges, the electoral college, gerrymandering, how money buys legislation, and the fact that there are two right-wing parties and you don't actually have the choice to vote anything but conservative/corporate. That's what i'm talking about.

Edit: This is the kind of initiatives you want to support if you like a more democratic election system:
Quote
BREAKING: Moments ago, the Maine House joined the Maine Senate and PASSED President @SenTroyJackson’s bill to expand Ranked Choice Voting for presidential elections! @rcvmaine #RCV4POTUS #mepolitics
Link >> https://twitter.com/rcvmaine/status/1141372979701587969?s=19
Title: Re: Who should be the Democratic nominee for President in 2020?
Post by: b_lumenkraft on June 20, 2019, 07:08:51 AM
Joe Biden Keeps Praising The WORST People Ever

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DJLmQeP78V4
Title: Re: Who should be the Democratic nominee for President in 2020?
Post by: Klondike Kat on June 20, 2019, 02:56:10 PM
We are not a democracy, we are a republic.

Your fellow countryman tell me all the time the US is a democracy. What's correct now?

The US is an oligarchy. And yes, a republic can also be an oligarchy.

Quote
In the democracy you describe, if a majority of the citizens wish to kill everyone who speaks with a lisp, so be it.

No, not in the slightest. This statement so far off i don't even intend to answer it.

As you (briefly) described it, that is a "democracy". Perhaps you could go into more detail on how people who thpeak with a lithp would be protected in your Utopia.
And by your standards, has there ever been a "democracy" (at least one that is not an oligarchy as well)?

Yes, the U.S. is a republic, not a true democracy (although there are some examples of democracy).  Ancient Athens was a true democracy, whereby the citizens voted directly.  Individual Swiss cantons are democracies, although the central government is a federation.
Title: Re: Who should be the Democratic nominee for President in 2020?
Post by: b_lumenkraft on June 20, 2019, 03:06:42 PM
Let me google this for you.

Quote
A republic (Latin: res publica) is a form of government in which the country is considered a “public matter”, not the private concern or property of the rulers.


Quote
Democracy (Greek: δημοκρατία dēmokratía, literally "rule by people") is a system of government where the citizens exercise power by voting.

Quote
A federation (also known as a federal state) is a political entity characterized by a union of partially self-governing provinces, states, or other regions under a central federal government (federalism).

As if a democracy couldn't be a republic? Or what?

I am talking about 'one person - one vote'. I'm not comparing apples and oranges as you guys do.


And no, in ancient Athens it wasn't 'one person - one vote'!

Quote
Only adult male Athenian citizens who had completed their military training as ephebes had the right to vote in Athens. The percentage of the population that actually participated in the government was 10% to 20% of the total number of inhabitants, but this varied from the fifth to the fourth century BC. This excluded a majority of the population: slaves, freed slaves, children, women and metics (foreigners resident in Athens). The women had limited rights and privileges, had restricted movement in public, and were very segregated from the men.
Title: Re: Who should be the Democratic nominee for President in 2020?
Post by: Tom_Mazanec on June 20, 2019, 04:02:02 PM
OK, if not Athens, then who (if anyone)?
Title: Re: Who should be the Democratic nominee for President in 2020?
Post by: b_lumenkraft on June 20, 2019, 04:16:59 PM
Pretty much every democracy in the world today.
Title: Re: Who should be the Democratic nominee for President in 2020?
Post by: Tom_Mazanec on June 20, 2019, 06:20:41 PM
So are the American States democracies? If not, why not? What are some democratic nations?
Title: Re: Who should be the Democratic nominee for President in 2020?
Post by: b_lumenkraft on June 20, 2019, 06:29:45 PM
I fell like i answered these questions a few times already, Tom.

Tell me what part you don't understand? Is it the gerrymandering, the undemocratic aspect of the electoral college, or that politics is inherently corrupt there? I don't know what i can say more. Do you know what these things are and mean?

Title: Re: Who should be the Democratic nominee for President in 2020?
Post by: SteveMDFP on June 20, 2019, 06:37:23 PM

We are not a democracy, we are a republic. In the democracy you describe, if a majority of the citizens wish to kill everyone who speaks with a lisp, so be it.
No system of government is perfect except a true Theocracy, and that won't be until the Parousia.

No, we are a democratic republic, a form of democracy.

Libertarians and fans of "The Federalist Letters" endlessly claim that only the ancient Greek city-states were "true" democracies.  They are simply clinging to archaic language, with an aim towards toxic politics.  In the 18th century, the model of the Greek city-states was the only prior example of democracy.  The city-states ran by direct votes, with no limiting constitution or option of judicial appeal.

In modern parlance, a republic with public votes, a constitution, and an effective judiciary is a democracy.  We're no longer in the 18th century, so we should drop archaic definitions.
Title: Re: Who should be the Democratic nominee for President in 2020?
Post by: Tom_Mazanec on June 20, 2019, 08:20:35 PM
If it's corrupt politics that disqualify a nation as a democracy, then there are no democracies.
Politics is inherently corrupt.
Title: Re: Who should be the Democratic nominee for President in 2020?
Post by: b_lumenkraft on June 20, 2019, 08:27:53 PM
So when a politician is directly paid by corporations in one country and taking private donations are illegal in another country, this is the same? Both are inherently corrupt? Please, tell me how that is Tom.
Title: Re: Who should be the Democratic nominee for President in 2020?
Post by: Tom_Mazanec on June 20, 2019, 08:35:14 PM
There may be different forms of corruption in different cultures, but Man’s Fallen Nature and the psychology of politics guarantees there will be corruption.
Title: Re: Who should be the Democratic nominee for President in 2020?
Post by: b_lumenkraft on June 20, 2019, 09:12:18 PM
Yes, and this is why it is so important to regulate them. In the US the door is wide open. Most democratic countries in the world added regulations in this regard.

But what do you expect when there is a constitution made by people who were slave owners. Sometime between now and then there should have been a modernisation.
Title: Re: Who should be the Democratic nominee for President in 2020?
Post by: sidd on June 21, 2019, 01:36:10 AM
Stoller at medium beats on Biden:

"Biden has a relatively small number of important accomplishments, and many of them — like the war in Iraq or the Bankruptcy Bill of 2005 — are deep policy failures."

"enjoy being famous, pursue a moderate form of social liberalism, and eschew any strong ideological challenge to corporate power"

"just an unmanageable candidate"

https://medium.com/@matthewstoller/bidens-laziness-problem-c479ae1f2a68

sidd
Title: Re: Who should be the Democratic nominee for President in 2020?
Post by: sidd on June 21, 2019, 02:36:07 AM
Biden fellates oligarchy:

"their taxes might have to be raised a little ... the increase wouldn't even be noticeable"

"nobody has to be punished"

"Nothing would fundamentally change"

https://www.commondreams.org/news/2019/06/19/vowing-not-demonize-rich-biden-tells-billionaires-nothing-would-fundamentally-change

sidd
Title: Re: Who should be the Democratic nominee for President in 2020?
Post by: Paddy on June 22, 2019, 03:49:31 PM
Given that we have two geriatric candidates leading the field for the dems (Bernie and Biden), and an obese geriatric incumbent, what are the odds that the next term's president might either have to step down due to illness or die in post?
Title: Re: Who should be the Democratic nominee for President in 2020?
Post by: Klondike Kat on June 22, 2019, 04:29:05 PM
Given that we have two geriatric candidates leading the field for the dems (Bernie and Biden), and an obese geriatric incumbent, what are the odds that the next term's president might either have to step down due to illness or die in post?

I say slim.  The four presidents who have died were either 93 or 94; Ford, Reagan, and Bush.  Carter is currently 94 and still kicking.  Sanders is 77, Biden 76, and Trump 72 - a spring chicken by comparison.
Title: Re: Who should be the Democratic nominee for President in 2020?
Post by: b_lumenkraft on June 22, 2019, 04:34:33 PM
Actually, the odds are not so bad. If you made it so long, the likelihood of making it 4 more years is high.

Life expectancy for a 70yo is over 14 years.
Life expectancy for a 75yo is over 11 years.
Life expectancy for an 80yo is over 8 years.

https://www.ssa.gov/oact/STATS/table4c6.html
Title: Re: Who should be the Democratic nominee for President in 2020?
Post by: Tom_Mazanec on June 22, 2019, 07:02:14 PM
Democrats: Reform campaign financing to save climate:
https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/powerpost/paloma/the-energy-202/2019/06/20/the-energy-202-want-to-address-climate-change-fix-campaign-finance-first-2020-democrats-say/5d0a5bc3a7a0a47d87c56d5a/?noredirect=on&utm_term=.5d5a7cd47514
and which accept FF Industry money?
https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/ng-interactive/2019/jun/20/democrats-2020-fossil-fuel-donations
Title: Re: Who should be the Democratic nominee for President in 2020?
Post by: TerryM on June 22, 2019, 10:36:05 PM
OK, if not Athens, then who (if anyone)?


The voters in Crimea, first in their vote to be independent of the Ukraine, then in their subsequent vote to join the Russian Federation.


The voters in The Boliverian Republic of Venezuela - after Chavez introduced constitutional changes (including the right of recall).


Possibly the Brexit voters who voted against the position held by most of their MPs.


Democracy isn't dead - They just don't always vote in the way we think that they should have. ::)


Terry
Title: Re: Who should be the Democratic nominee for President in 2020?
Post by: Klondike Kat on June 23, 2019, 12:17:01 AM
OK, if not Athens, then who (if anyone)?


The voters in Crimea, first in their vote to be independent of the Ukraine, then in their subsequent vote to join the Russian Federation.


The voters in The Boliverian Republic of Venezuela - after Chavez introduced constitutional changes (including the right of recall).


Possibly the Brexit voters who voted against the position held by most of their MPs.


Democracy isn't dead - They just don't always vote in the way we think that they should have. ::)


Terry

Terry,
Good points. When everyone is allowed to vote, the results may not always align with what you or I think they should.
Title: Re: Who should be the Democratic nominee for President in 2020?
Post by: sidd on June 23, 2019, 06:53:16 AM
Re: They just don't always vote in the way we think

"The people have spoken, the bastards." -- Dick Tuck

sidd
Title: Re: Who should be the Democratic nominee for President in 2020?
Post by: Rich on June 24, 2019, 01:22:30 PM
America is no longer a functional democracy. We go through the process of voting and the Congress we elect legislates in accordance with the wishes of the big donors.

The 2014 Princeton study determined pretty conclusively that the US is a functional oligarchy.

We don't always see eye to eye, but I agree with lumenkraft 110% on this.

Two corporate / conservative parties to choose from. Almost all Congress critters go on to higher paid lobbying gigs when they leave office.

Title: Re: Who should be the Democratic nominee for President in 2020?
Post by: b_lumenkraft on June 24, 2019, 01:35:39 PM
We don't always see eye to eye, but I agree with lumenkraft 110% on this.

High five buddy! 🙌   ;)
Title: Re: Who should be the Democratic nominee for President in 2020?
Post by: b_lumenkraft on June 24, 2019, 01:46:44 PM
Nobody Understands 2020 Better Than Cornel West

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_zR6L2_M9PA
Title: Re: Who should be the Democratic nominee for President in 2020?
Post by: Tom_Mazanec on June 24, 2019, 04:04:14 PM
Nobody understands 2020 better than him? Out of 7 billion people? That’s quite a claim  ;D
Title: Re: Who should be the Democratic nominee for President in 2020?
Post by: b_lumenkraft on June 24, 2019, 04:27:56 PM
These inaccurate NTs, eh Tom? ;)

But seriously, he might be in the top 0.0001%
Title: Re: Who should be the Democratic nominee for President in 2020?
Post by: Tom_Mazanec on June 24, 2019, 06:17:52 PM
Democrat candidates pushing old, poor climate policy:
https://www.motherjones.com/environment/2019/06/2020-clean-power-plan/

Elizabeth Warren climate plan:
https://www.vox.com/policy-and-politics/2019/6/22/18691902/elizabeth-warren-2020-climate-change-policy-proposal-corruption
Title: Re: Who should be the Democratic nominee for President in 2020?
Post by: Ken Feldman on June 25, 2019, 10:38:59 PM
As Tom's second link above points out, Sen. Warren has three specific proposals dealing with climate change.  The first two (no fossil fuels extraction from public lands and requiring 10% of electricity to be generated from renewables on public lands) are good incremental policies that will help reduce our fossil fuel emissions and increase our renewable emissions.   Her third proposal is the big one that would incorporate many of the jobs and energy aims of the Green New Deal.  Combined with her other proposals, her plans to address climate change make her the candidate I prefer now.

However, my Governor, Jay Inslee, has the best set of proposals to address climate change.  Like Sen. Warren, he has issued three major proposals to deal with the issue.

Today, Gov. Inslee just announce his fourth proposal, and it's the big one.

https://grist.org/article/watch-out-big-oil-jay-inslees-back-at-it-again-with-a-greenhouse-gas-fee/ (https://grist.org/article/watch-out-big-oil-jay-inslees-back-at-it-again-with-a-greenhouse-gas-fee/)

Quote
Watch out, Big Oil. Jay Inslee’s back at it again with a greenhouse gas fee.


By Zoya Teirstein on Jun 24, 2019

Adding to his growing stack of policies aimed at averting the climate crisis, Washington Governor Jay Inslee, one of the 23 Democrats running for president, announced Monday the fourth part of his Climate Mission. No other candidate has released as many proposals centered on warming — but then again, no other candidate is trying to win the right to face Donald Trump on a platform solely centered on it.

Inslee’s Freedom from Fossil Fuels plan seeks to establish a new national energy strategy — and it provides a blueprint for kneecapping the fossil fuel industry. It’s comprised of 16 policy initiatives grouped under ambitious priorities like phasing out fossil fuel production, ending the $20 billion in annual fossil fuel subsidies, and beefing up corporate transparency. This is the most fleshed out candidate strategy for how the federal government can ease the United States off of fossil fuels and onto renewables.

Quote
But not all of the climate initiatives the governor has either offered or backed have been successful in Washington state. And one of them, a carbon price, has failed three times in various forms. Which is why the inclusion of a “climate pollution fee” in the Freedom from Fossil Fuels plan is curious. After all, it hearkens back to Inslee’s highest-profile failures in this arena.

Quote
Inslee’s perseverance might be a good thing. Some environmentalists, like OG climate hawk James Hansen, have argued that a carbon tax is essential. And a slew of oil companies, CEOs of major corporations, and Republican economists agree.

So let’s take a closer look at this “fee” as the governor likes to call it.

The Democrat says he would work with Congress to set the price, which would start low and rise “steadily and aggressively over time.” (For reference, the latest ballot initiative in Washington state, which failed to pass last year, began at $15 per ton of carbon.) The fee would only apply to certain economic sectors, though Inslee doesn’t say which sectors will get tapped. And it appears that the money generated by the fee would go towards things like transitioning to a green economy, supporting front-line and low-income communities struggling with the aftermath of climate disaster, and spurring economic development.

A new twist in Inslee’s plan is that carbon dioxide isn’t the only pollutant regulated by this proposal. Methane, F-gases (synthetic gases used as refrigerants, among other things, that can stay in the atmosphere for centuries) and other greenhouse gases will also get a fee, priced by the risks each gas poses. And lest we forget that American’s aren’t only consuming products produced by U.S. companies, Inslee’s plan also proposes a “carbon duty,” to be imposed on imports of products manufactured or grown in countries that don’t adhere to the new and beefed up Paris agreement his third policy rollout proposed.

Unfortunately, Inslee's campaign isn't gaining traction, so let's hope his proposals get picked up by some of the other candidates.
Title: Re: Who should be the Democratic nominee for President in 2020?
Post by: Ken Feldman on June 25, 2019, 10:50:36 PM
Democrat candidates pushing old, poor climate policy:
https://www.motherjones.com/environment/2019/06/2020-clean-power-plan/

The "old, poor climate policy" referred to in the link posted by Tom above would be to stay in the Paris Treaty and to restore the Obama climate rule.  Neither of these is a bad thing.

The Paris Treaty is an important symbolic agreement that shows the nations of the world are working together to address the problem.  While the specific commitments made by the nations are inadequate to address the problem, it at least shows that people are willing to work together to limit warming to 2 degrees C (and if possible, 1.5 C).  That's better than withdrawing from the Treaty and not committing to any reductions in greenhouse gases.

The Obama climate rule took years to get through the public notice and comment periods required by US law.  Creating a new rule would also take years to go through the same comment period.  The Obama rule could be reinstated by a new President on January 20, 2021 without needing new laws or comment periods.
Title: Re: Who should be the Democratic nominee for President in 2020?
Post by: TerryM on June 26, 2019, 01:51:42 AM
  The Obama rule could be reinstated by a new President on January 20, 2021 without needing new laws or comment periods.


Perhaps it's a necessary "first step" that every Democratic contender SHOULD pledge to - prior to debating the additional policy positions that each candidate will offer?


After chasing the RussiaGate rabbit for years, and having returned from the hunt as empty handed and confused as Elmer Fudd. The Democratic Candidates that hope to defeat the incumbent will need draw the voter's attention to the unforced errors and "self goals" that Team Trump has already committed.


The rejection of the Paris Accord. The unilateral decision to move the American Embassy to Jerusalem. Committing America to a Trade War with her largest supplier of manufactured goods. Threatened hot wars in the Mid-East, South America and ??. Sanctions and Tariffs against friends and enemies, (including Russia whose machinations had supposedly elected him, and under whose blackmail threat he supposedly cowers)  A Cabinet replete with The Chief Torcheress, a Convicted Drug/Arms Smuggler and even "We Know Where You're Children Are" Bolton.


If a Candidate is unable to design and run a winning campaign woven from such a strikingly venial record, perhaps he or she is simply not up to the task of running the country.


Terry
Title: Re: Who should be the Democratic nominee for President in 2020?
Post by: Bruce Steele on June 26, 2019, 02:40:52 AM
So good to see you back Terry! 
I follow some right wing friends on Facebook and some of my right wing relatives find time to flame my liberal relatives in various public forums. There really isn't any reasoning going on between the two sides of the political spectrum . I don't know if the Internet has had similar results everywhere but counting on rational outcomes from elections with the vitriol going about is maybe wishful thinking.
We have gone stark raving nuts and we probably deserve the trump ( you'd think people would realize how foolish he makes us look ) sorry to inflict this on the rest of the world.
 I got rid of my cell phone and I wish I didn't have as clear a view into my relatives inter conflicts via the net. The Internet is a mixed blessing or a total curse. I did miss your posts and I look to this forum for some hints at sanity somewhere in the world .
Bruce
Title: Re: Who should be the Democratic nominee for President in 2020?
Post by: TerryM on June 26, 2019, 09:43:44 AM
So good to see you back Terry! 

Thanks Bruce


I've been out of touch since February, but hope to be able to fully participate again as soon as I've brought myself up to date on the forum.


Don't feel embarrassment over Trump. Here in Ontario we elected the big brother of the infamously crazy former Mayor of Toronto as our Premier (Governor), and in the upcoming Federal Election we'll be fortunate indeed if we escape from being ruled by another Harperesque Right Wing Thug.


I've been blaming the Cambridge Analytica Clones, but it's certainly possible that everyone has simply gone stark raving mad. ::)


Scratch a piggies ear for me.
Terry
Title: Re: Who should be the Democratic nominee for President in 2020?
Post by: b_lumenkraft on June 27, 2019, 07:54:24 PM
Tonight you're gonna witness a consistency gala.

(https://i.imgur.com/tLIjctc.jpg)
Title: Re: Who should be the Democratic nominee for President in 2020?
Post by: sidd on June 28, 2019, 08:29:31 AM
After watching the debates i see that Bernie has already won significant advance. Even Dem corporate lackeys now feel the need to at least pay lip service to left wing of Democrats.

sidd
Title: Re: Who should be the Democratic nominee for President in 2020?
Post by: b_lumenkraft on June 28, 2019, 09:09:14 AM
After watching the debates i see that Bernie has already won significant advance. Even Dem corporate lackeys now feel the need to at least pay lip service to left wing of Democrats.

sidd

I had the exact same thought this morning.

Bernie has already done a lot for Americans, without even being president.

His politics, his stands, his consistency, always being on the right side of history ... this put up a political benchmark.

His performance though could have been better.

The woman who wants to put poor people into prison for no reason came out great. Meh!

The debate itself is political theatre. The worst kind of format when it comes to discussing the issues. Just another horrible display of cable-news style of BS.
Title: Re: Who should be the Democratic nominee for President in 2020?
Post by: sidd on June 29, 2019, 07:52:35 AM
Sjursen likes Gabbard:

"the only one among an absurdly large field of candidates who has put foreign policy, specifically ending the forever wars, at the top of her presidential campaign agenda."

https://www.theamericanconservative.com/articles/the-tulsi-effect-forcing-war-onto-the-democratic-agenda/

sidd
Title: Re: Who should be the Democratic nominee for President in 2020?
Post by: TerryM on June 29, 2019, 11:44:11 AM
Sjursen likes Gabbard:

"the only one among an absurdly large field of candidates who has put foreign policy, specifically ending the forever wars, at the top of her presidential campaign agenda."

https://www.theamericanconservative.com/articles/the-tulsi-effect-forcing-war-onto-the-democratic-agenda/ (https://www.theamericanconservative.com/articles/the-tulsi-effect-forcing-war-onto-the-democratic-agenda/)

sidd


Wins my support!
We can't solve world wide problems without world wide co-operation,
Terry
Title: Re: Who should be the Democratic nominee for President in 2020?
Post by: b_lumenkraft on June 29, 2019, 09:28:58 PM
Democratic Voters Are HORRIBLY Misinformed About Joe Biden, Poll Finds

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2iLB12YJbtE
Title: Re: Who should be the Democratic nominee for President in 2020?
Post by: b_lumenkraft on June 30, 2019, 06:06:00 PM
@BernieSanders on Twitter:

Quote
My skeptics often accuse me of being boring, of hammering the same themes. They’re probably right. It's never made sense to me that a few people have incredible wealth and power while most have none.

Should we ever achieve justice, I promise I’ll write some new speeches.

Link >> https://mobile.twitter.com/BernieSanders/status/1145013425057280000
Title: Re: Who should be the Democratic nominee for President in 2020?
Post by: b_lumenkraft on July 02, 2019, 11:15:03 AM
Joe Biden Follows Colossal Debate Failure With Bizarre 'Hoodies' Comment


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BgSpUUbGjUU
Title: Re: Who should be the Democratic nominee for President in 2020?
Post by: b_lumenkraft on July 02, 2019, 11:46:08 AM
Peak stupidity:

MSNBC Guest: ‘Bernie’s Problem Is That He's Too Consistent'

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZrvDn_r6KF0
Title: Re: Who should be the Democratic nominee for President in 2020?
Post by: b_lumenkraft on July 03, 2019, 10:22:52 PM
Another Bernie Healthcare Claim Proven True

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AUXfuR_EgdI
Title: Re: Who should be the Democratic nominee for President in 2020?
Post by: b_lumenkraft on July 04, 2019, 10:15:02 AM
30 Years of Speeches by Bernie Sanders

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RU3NKvvxcSs
Title: Re: Who should be the Democratic nominee for President in 2020?
Post by: b_lumenkraft on July 07, 2019, 03:59:31 PM
Cornel West "The Establishment In The Democratic Party IS UNRAVELING!"

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a7KZaVnBwW8&app=desktop
Title: Re: Who should be the Democratic nominee for President in 2020?
Post by: b_lumenkraft on July 09, 2019, 01:39:09 PM
Bernie Eviscerates Trump On Twitter For Lying About Pharma Prices

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GKIfyVnid7A
Title: Re: Who should be the Democratic nominee for President in 2020?
Post by: sidd on July 10, 2019, 10:22:27 AM
Biden and Iraq:

http://inthesetimes.com/features/joe-biden-iraq-war-vote-democratic-primary-2020.html

Biden and Harris:

https://www.commondreams.org/views/2019/07/08/corporate-team-rivals-harris-now-top-tier-biden-prevent-progressive-nominee

sidd
Title: Re: Who should be the Democratic nominee for President in 2020?
Post by: b_lumenkraft on July 12, 2019, 08:15:54 PM
Bernie Jumps up in Early States - Democratic Primary Polls - Dem 2020 Polls - July 2019

Biden dropping fast in favorability.

Now focus on the bad cop.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6u40Qe-PHD0
Title: Re: Who should be the Democratic nominee for President in 2020?
Post by: b_lumenkraft on July 13, 2019, 09:26:55 AM
Bernie Drops Most Heartwarming GIF of 2020 Campaign

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OxbXKKVDoeY
Title: Re: Who should be the Democratic nominee for President in 2020?
Post by: Tom_Mazanec on July 13, 2019, 07:22:04 PM
New Republic...why we are challenging candidates to debate climate:
https://newrepublic.com/article/154416/new-republic-gizmodo-2020-climate-summit-democratic-debate
Title: Re: Who should be the Democratic nominee for President in 2020?
Post by: Rich on July 17, 2019, 05:07:05 PM
It has to be Bernie.

The guy who would break up the oligopoly of big banks, big tech and big pharma is the one who could break up the Central Arctic Basin into manageable reporting buckets.

Today the CAB represents 53% of all ice in the the Arctic. By season's end, that will soar to 75-80%.

Under Bernie's leadership, the NSIDC will be directed to break up the CAB into categories that will enable Arctic sea ice followers to understand what the fuck is going on.

Break up Big Ice.
Title: Re: Who should be the Democratic nominee for President in 2020?
Post by: budmantis on July 27, 2019, 07:53:21 AM
I started this thread quite a while ago. I like Bernie, Harris, Warren and Biden. What is the best matchup with Trump? It's high time for the first woman in history to become President. However, the best candidate to go head to head against the Trumpster is Biden, IMO. Biden is a centrist, and I think he has the best shot at beating Trump.


Do I want student loan forgiveness? Yes! Do I want Medicare for all? Yes! Do I like AOC and the Squad? Absolutely! All that being said, the likelihood of both ideas coming to pass in the next four to eight years is pretty low.


It seems to me the further left the Democrats go, the further right the Republicans go. That's why i think a centrist Democrat like Biden has the best chance of winning in 2020. With one caveat! Biden is not a good campaigner and tends to shoot himself in the foot. Still, I think he's our best bet.
Title: Re: Who should be the Democratic nominee for President in 2020?
Post by: Klondike Kat on July 27, 2019, 02:43:54 PM
I started this thread quite a while ago. I like Bernie, Harris, Warren and Biden. What is the best matchup with Trump? It's high time for the first woman in history to become President. However, the best candidate to go head to head against the Trumpster is Biden, IMO. Biden is a centrist, and I think he has the best shot at beating Trump.


Do I want student loan forgiveness? Yes! Do I want Medicare for all? Yes! Do I like AOC and the Squad? Absolutely! All that being said, the likelihood of both ideas coming to pass in the next four to eight years is pretty low.


It seems to me the further left the Democrats go, the further right the Republicans go. That's why i think a centrist Democrat like Biden has the best chance of winning in 2020. With one caveat! Biden is not a good campaigner and tends to shoot himself in the foot. Still, I think he's our best bet.

I agree with you.  While many here have shown support for anyone candidate, and claim they are the best positioned to be Trump, I think that is just wishful thinking.  Is Trump disliked?  Greatly!  Is he disgusting ?  Of course!  Is he beatable?  Yes, but it takes the right candidate.  As shown in 2016, a candidate who evokes similar negative opinions, will not prevail.  Biden is much less vocal, opinionated, and obnoxious.  Hence, he is much more likable.  I think this is the way to beat Trump, not on the issues unfortunately.  With the economy firing on all cylinders, it is a disadvantage to all challengers.  His approach to foreign policy, while rather unorthodox, has yielded results.  If I were running, I would distance myself from the two issues you posted.  Medicare for all is not as bad, but it can be turned around politically with such claims as losing your personal physician and worse than Obamacare.  Neither of which are true, but turn out to be negatives among the populace.  Student loan forgiveness is a time bomb.  It is view as a giveaway to the rich, which leftist candidate can not afford.  This is not an issue that affects the poor; most cannot even afford college, and those that are in a position to attend, qualify for all sorts of aid packages, apart from loans.  But is not the biggest negative.  An estimated 44 million have outstanding student loans.  That sounds like a lot, until you compare it to the total number of graduates, who worked their way through college, joined the military, or paid off their loans in full.  They are vehemently opposed to this action.  So, I thing Biden can win as long as he stays committed to his campaign and not engage Trump in a mud-slinging affair.
Title: Re: Who should be the Democratic nominee for President in 2020?
Post by: Tom_Mazanec on July 27, 2019, 08:20:04 PM
CNN to put on climate town hall for Dem candidates:
https://thehill.com/homenews/media/454838-cnn-announces-climate-town-hall-with-2020-democrats
also MSNBC:
https://www.huffpost.com/entry/cnn-climate-change-town-hall_n_5d3a6994e4b0c31569e8ebd1
Title: Re: Who should be the Democratic nominee for President in 2020?
Post by: kassy on July 27, 2019, 09:04:20 PM
If you are going for Biden it is just more fail. You have an option between 2 crap burgers but you could just make a better one from sane basic ingredients. But everyone is too lazy. Oh no Trump is destroying EPA because Obama buffed it. Does it ever cross your mind that it did a lot of good and all the current direction is just killing more americans. But no one focusses on that because the blah blah is more important.

Yes get Biden in there. He is nearly a saint and his son specializes in free community work.

He also loves the US people much more then his corporate masters.
Title: Re: Who should be the Democratic nominee for President in 2020?
Post by: TerryM on July 27, 2019, 10:41:47 PM
Would Biden be better than Trump when it comes to the environment?
Would his surviving son help him in making these decisions?
Who would fund Biden's campaign?
How many will just stay home?
Terry

Title: Re: Who should be the Democratic nominee for President in 2020?
Post by: gerontocrat on July 27, 2019, 11:49:19 PM
Would Biden be better than Trump when it comes to the environment?
Would his surviving son help him in making these decisions?
Who would fund Biden's campaign?
How many will just stay home?
Terry
If the economy tanks by early 2020 and unemployment is rising strongly by summer.......
Title: Re: Who should be the Democratic nominee for President in 2020?
Post by: blumenkraft on July 28, 2019, 06:12:53 PM
49 < 48

+5 = -5

25 = 28

Less than $200 = 0

23 minutes = 5 minutes

This is how MSNBC does maths in order to smear Sanders.

MSNBC’s Anti-Sanders Bias Is Getting Truly Ridiculous

Link >> https://www.truthdig.com/articles/msnbcs-anti-sanders-bias-is-getting-truly-ridiculous/
Title: Re: Who should be the Democratic nominee for President in 2020?
Post by: TerryM on July 28, 2019, 07:13:13 PM
In a similar vein my preferred is suing Google!

https://tomluongo.me/2019/07/26/gabbard-google-censorship-election/ (https://tomluongo.me/2019/07/26/gabbard-google-censorship-election/)

Tulsi Gabbard claims they violated election code by:
1) suspending her Google Ad account for six hours while search traffic for her was spiking and
2) Gmail disproportionately junked her campaign emails.
This represents an intervention into her ability to speak to voters and, as such, is a violation of not only her First Amendment rights but also, more critically, campaign finance law.
Terry

Title: Re: Who should be the Democratic nominee for President in 2020?
Post by: philopek on July 28, 2019, 07:59:38 PM
In a similar vein my preferred is suing Google!

https://tomluongo.me/2019/07/26/gabbard-google-censorship-election/ (https://tomluongo.me/2019/07/26/gabbard-google-censorship-election/)

Tulsi Gabbard claims they violated election code by:
1) suspending her Google Ad account for six hours while search traffic for her was spiking and
2) Gmail disproportionately junked her campaign emails.
This represents an intervention into her ability to speak to voters and, as such, is a violation of not only her First Amendment rights but also, more critically, campaign finance law.
Terry

Absolutely great, this make my day, thanks for letting us know Terry, keep things like that coming.

PP
Title: Re: Who should be the Democratic nominee for President in 2020?
Post by: blumenkraft on August 01, 2019, 08:06:35 PM
After the debates, the meme machine went hot.

Here are some excerpts:
Title: Re: Who should be the Democratic nominee for President in 2020?
Post by: Rich on August 02, 2019, 12:13:58 AM
At this point it's narrowing down to 3 candidates.

Biden, Bernie and Warren.

Harris is a formidable politician, but not enough cred.  No one else has a chance.

If Warren manages to beat Bernie in IA and NH, Bernie will drop out and go balls to the wall in support of her. No way Biden beats the combined efforts of the two of them.

Would Warren do the same for Bernie? Not so sure.

AOC is going to jump on the train at the optimal moment.

Bernie is the right choice. He is the guy who will turn up the populist heat in the White House. He is the one who wants the bully pulpit and knows how to use it.
Title: Re: Who should be the Democratic nominee for President in 2020?
Post by: Tom_Mazanec on August 02, 2019, 12:59:41 AM
Good analysis, Rich, but think:
Where was Trump on August 1, 2015?
Title: Re: Who should be the Democratic nominee for President in 2020?
Post by: Gumbercules on August 02, 2019, 01:49:25 AM
Gabbard or Yang. They are the only non-insane ones.
Title: Re: Who should be the Democratic nominee for President in 2020?
Post by: budmantis on August 02, 2019, 07:24:05 AM
Hopefully when the next round of debates occur, the field will be whittled down to about six candidates. There are a lot of participants in the last two debates that really shouldn't even be there. Rich, I really like Bernie and I'm hoping that either Eliz. Warren or Bernie will be our new President. A while ago, I mentioned that Biden stood the best chance of defeating the Trumpster.

Based on his performance so far, I dont believe he deserves to be the Democratic candidate next year, and I doubt he'll win it.

That being said, I still believe that the farther left the Democratic candidate is, the farther right the Republican party will be. Even if the democrats control both houses of congress, they'll still need to compromise with the Republicans to get anything done.

The only way a candidate like Warren or Sanders could make widespread change would be if they win the general election by a landslide.
Title: Re: Who should be the Democratic nominee for President in 2020?
Post by: TerryM on August 02, 2019, 09:01:06 AM
Apparently Tulsi hit one out of the park in the last debate. Was that the impression here?
Terry
Title: Re: Who should be the Democratic nominee for President in 2020?
Post by: DrTskoul on August 02, 2019, 12:42:45 PM
Apparently Tulsi hit one out of the park in the last debate. Was that the impression here?
Terry

I look for more than a one-hit-wonder.....
Title: Re: Who should be the Democratic nominee for President in 2020?
Post by: TerryM on August 02, 2019, 03:53:58 PM
Apparently Tulsi hit one out of the park in the last debate. Was that the impression here?
Terry

I look for more than a one-hit-wonder.....


Fair enough
There are more innings coming. :D
Terry
Title: Re: Who should be the Democratic nominee for President in 2020?
Post by: blumenkraft on August 02, 2019, 04:00:31 PM
Missing sir Sidd!
Title: Re: Who should be the Democratic nominee for President in 2020?
Post by: TerryM on August 02, 2019, 04:05:50 PM
Missing sir Sidd!
Ramen !!
Terry
Title: Re: Who should be the Democratic nominee for President in 2020?
Post by: blumenkraft on August 02, 2019, 07:39:33 PM
Detailed Maps of the Donors Powering the 2020 Democratic Campaigns

Link >> https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2019/08/02/us/politics/2020-democratic-fundraising.html
Title: Re: Who should be the Democratic nominee for President in 2020?
Post by: Rich on August 02, 2019, 09:58:19 PM
Apparently Tulsi hit one out of the park in the last debate. Was that the impression here?
Terry

Tulsi knocked Harris out of the park with a withering attack on her record as CA Attorney General. Tulsi has zero shot at the nomination.
Title: Re: Who should be the Democratic nominee for President in 2020?
Post by: Rich on August 02, 2019, 10:08:22 PM
Milestone passed in the US House Democratic caucus....

A majority of the caucus now co-sponsors the Medicare For All proposal written by Congresswoman Pramila Jayapal and patterned after Sanders MFA proposal.

None of the Democratic leadership (Pekosi, Hoyer or Clyburn) or current primary front-runner Joe Biden support MFA.

The times are changing and the people are smelling oligarch blood in the water with Sanders and Warren.

Best part of the debate was Bernie slapping moderator Jake Tapper down and telling him that he was arguing GOP and Big Pharma talking points and that Big Pharma would be advertising those same points on CNN that night. (They did... LOL).
Title: Re: Who should be the Democratic nominee for President in 2020?
Post by: blumenkraft on August 02, 2019, 10:19:43 PM
The difference is, Sanders means it.

The others are paying lip service.
Title: Re: Who should be the Democratic nominee for President in 2020?
Post by: Rich on August 02, 2019, 10:43:28 PM
The difference is, Sanders means it.

The others are paying lip service.

What's your take on Warren bl?
Title: Re: Who should be the Democratic nominee for President in 2020?
Post by: bbr2314 on August 03, 2019, 05:31:18 AM
At this point it's narrowing down to 3 candidates.

Biden, Bernie and Warren.

Harris is a formidable politician, but not enough cred.  No one else has a chance.

If Warren manages to beat Bernie in IA and NH, Bernie will drop out and go balls to the wall in support of her. No way Biden beats the combined efforts of the two of them.

Would Warren do the same for Bernie? Not so sure.

AOC is going to jump on the train at the optimal moment.

Bernie is the right choice. He is the guy who will turn up the populist heat in the White House. He is the one who wants the bully pulpit and knows how to use it.

If Warren gets the nomination Trump is guaranteed a second term. She is the screeching embodiment of everything wrong with Hillary WITHOUT any of the positives. I would potentially actively campaign for Trump if this were to occur.

Kamala Harris is probably my favorite now, Biden is acceptable, Buttigieg is also fine. If Sanders or Warren get the nom, my decision will be easy.
Title: Re: Who should be the Democratic nominee for President in 2020?
Post by: blumenkraft on August 03, 2019, 06:13:05 AM
If Warren gets the nomination Trump is guaranteed a second term.
Kamala Harris is probably my favorite now, Biden is acceptable, Buttigieg is also fine. If Sanders or Warren get the nom, my decision will be easy.

Aren't you a republican, Bbr? And your favourite is the cop, who puts black people into prison for no reason?

It is consistent, that i have to give you. :P
Title: Re: Who should be the Democratic nominee for President in 2020?
Post by: budmantis on August 03, 2019, 06:30:02 AM
BBR, so if Sanders or Warren get the Democratic nomination, you're going to vote for ? (Trump)???
Title: Re: Who should be the Democratic nominee for President in 2020?
Post by: bbr2314 on August 03, 2019, 06:56:33 AM
BBR, so if Sanders or Warren get the Democratic nomination, you're going to vote for ? (Trump)???
Probably

I didn't vote in 2016, I'm not a Republican but I am less disturbed by their rhetoric than what is coming out of the left (although both sides have very bad parts, I think the ignorance of the leftists is actually worse than that of ppl on the right)

It is like asking someone if climate change exists and if so, what they intend to do about it. The Republican idiot would at least be consistent and say it doesn't exist / nothing can be done. The Democrat would say it is awful and that OTHER PEOPLE need to reduce their consumption etc. I think the answer by the Democrat is actually worse as it indicates more narcissism / etc instead of simple ignorance.

To my eyes, Rs are generally more interested in looking after themselves, while Democrats are interested in taking from other people & forcibly redistributing money and other things for their own personal gain. To Democrats it is never about what they personally can do to help etc, it is about what can be done to make OTHER PEOPLE do XYZ so issue WHATEVER can be resolved.
Title: Re: Who should be the Democratic nominee for President in 2020?
Post by: blumenkraft on August 03, 2019, 07:19:01 AM
I am less disturbed by their rhetoric than what is coming out of the left

WOW.

We have an openly racist president with the IQ of a 5yo and you are less disturbed by him than all this chant for MFA from the left.

Quote
while Democrats are interested in taking from other people

How dare they not giving all the taxes to the super-rich, eh?

You are ignoring that you will pay the bill. This deficit is also your deficit.

See, Bbr, this is why i can't take you seriously when it comes to politics. You just repeat the FoxNews bullshit you hear all day and don't use a single brain cell of yours to scrutinise the corporate propaganda. That's so pathetic.
Title: Re: Who should be the Democratic nominee for President in 2020?
Post by: bbr2314 on August 03, 2019, 07:33:59 AM
I am less disturbed by their rhetoric than what is coming out of the left

WOW.

We have an openly racist president with the IQ of a 5yo and you are less disturbed by him than all this chant for MFA from the left.

Quote
while Democrats are interested in taking from other people

How dare they not giving all the taxes to the super-rich, eh?

You are ignoring that you will pay the bill. This deficit is also your deficit.

See, Bbr, this is why i can't take you seriously when it comes to politics. You just repeat the FoxNews bullshit you hear all day and don't use a single brain cell of yours to scrutinise the corporate propaganda. That's so pathetic.

I don't watch FOX News, I don't even have a television...

Also I do not think Trump is openly racist, it is a talking point blared by the fake news / liberal media that holds no basis in reality. Has he done some bad things? Yes.

Was he right about those four congresswomen? Also yes. Ilhan Omar is openly anti-semitic. AOC murdered 40,000 new jobs in NYC that would've had a median income of 100K a year. The other two I am less well versed on, but I don't think he is wrong that they should go back to their sh*thole countries if they hate it here so much. The solution is not to turn the US into another Somalia or Wherever-istan.
Title: Re: Who should be the Democratic nominee for President in 2020?
Post by: blumenkraft on August 03, 2019, 07:45:40 AM
I hope people reading this ^ know why Harris and Biden are his favourites.

Both are talking to people like him, our political opponents.

Thanks, Bbr, for making this point so clear.
Title: Re: Who should be the Democratic nominee for President in 2020?
Post by: blumenkraft on August 03, 2019, 07:47:54 AM
Ilhan Omar is openly anti-semitic and Trump is not a racist.

Welcome to bizarro America.
Title: Re: Who should be the Democratic nominee for President in 2020?
Post by: bbr2314 on August 03, 2019, 07:51:34 AM
I hope people reading this ^ know why Harris and Biden are his favourites.

Both are talking to people like him, our political opponents.

Thanks, Bbr, for making this point so clear.
Because they are moderates...?

IDK what you are trying to prove or do, by committing to your insane ideology and demanding everyone else do the same (lest you castigate them as a FOX News-watching imbecile), you will just keep on losing... fine by me I guess!
Title: Re: Who should be the Democratic nominee for President in 2020?
Post by: blumenkraft on August 03, 2019, 07:55:36 AM
You are moderate, aren't you? Unaware this is the politics that destroy the planet, that kills people, that's racist and bigot.

Quote
IDK what you are trying to prove or do

I know you don't know. :)
Title: Re: Who should be the Democratic nominee for President in 2020?
Post by: bbr2314 on August 03, 2019, 08:08:08 AM
You are moderate, aren't you? Unaware this is the politics that destroy the planet, that kills people, that's racist and bigot.

Quote
IDK what you are trying to prove or do

I know you don't know. :)
Are you aware that aerosols are the only thing keeping us from blowing past levels of warming that would be completely catastrophic...?

Have any of the Democrats ever mentioned this? I'm not saying the Republicans are better, but if the D understanding of climate science is, for all intents and purposes, equally as inadequate, what difference does pulling either lever actually make?

One could make the case for coal based on its potential reduction in near-term prospects of catastrophic warming. I'm not saying coal is good, but maybe it is a necessary evil until / if we can figure out how to decarbonize without destroying the planet in the process.

I feel like nuance is something you don't do well with, so this may be my last post in here for a while.
Title: Re: Who should be the Democratic nominee for President in 2020?
Post by: blumenkraft on August 03, 2019, 08:31:36 AM
The Dems don't bring up every detail of climate science on the debate stages and therefore you consider voting for the climate change denier. Sure, makes total sense...

You are discrediting yourself so damn hard, Bbr, it's amazing.
Title: Re: Who should be the Democratic nominee for President in 2020?
Post by: bbr2314 on August 03, 2019, 08:35:23 AM
The Dems don't bring up every detail of climate science on the debate stages and therefore you consider voting for the climate change denier. Sure, makes total sense...

You are discrediting yourself so damn hard, Bbr, it's amazing.
...that is not what I said.... you think any of them know about the aerosol masking effect on warming? OK, you keep thinking that.
Title: Re: Who should be the Democratic nominee for President in 2020?
Post by: blumenkraft on August 03, 2019, 08:36:25 AM
Three Minutes Of Joe Biden Getting Owned At The Debate

Biden is getting told what he did in the past, and you can see him regretting it. Lovely to watch.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aFd3r4IRyT0
Title: Re: Who should be the Democratic nominee for President in 2020?
Post by: blumenkraft on August 03, 2019, 08:46:12 AM
...that is not what I said....

This is exactly what you said. You stated above you will probably vote for the climate change denier while smearing Dems for not knowing as much about climate science than you. That you don't see this cognitive dissonance is stunning to me.
Title: Re: Who should be the Democratic nominee for President in 2020?
Post by: bbr2314 on August 03, 2019, 08:46:56 AM
Three Minutes Of Joe Biden Getting Owned At The Debate

Biden is getting told what he did in the past, and you can see him regretting it. Lovely to watch.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aFd3r4IRyT0
This is literally just cannon fodder for 2020... a long, drawn-out Democratic Primary is the worst thing possible for a D victory in 2020 and it is increasingly looking like that is exactly what we are going to see. There is no party unity, there is no sense of urgency about defeating Trump, the same mistakes in 2016 are being repeated in an even more egregious manner this campaign cycle.
Title: Re: Who should be the Democratic nominee for President in 2020?
Post by: bbr2314 on August 03, 2019, 08:48:52 AM
...that is not what I said....

This is exactly what you said. You stated above you will probably vote for the climate change denier while smearing Dems for not knowing as much about climate science than you. That you don't see this cognitive dissonance is stunning to me.
You are missing my point: whether the Democrats acknowledge climate change or not, ignorance regarding the aerosol issues make any claims they are making, or possible solutions, equally as moot as Trump's denial of climate change altogether. It is like saying that a patient with cancer is better treated by a masseuse than a holistic practitioner. Neither solution is relevant or helpful...
Title: Re: Who should be the Democratic nominee for President in 2020?
Post by: blumenkraft on August 03, 2019, 08:55:37 AM
Bbr, you have nothing to say about who the Democratic nominee for 2020 should be. Absolutely nothing. :)
Title: Re: Who should be the Democratic nominee for President in 2020?
Post by: bbr2314 on August 03, 2019, 08:58:28 AM
Bbr, you have nothing to say about who the Democratic nominee for 2020 should be. Absolutely nothing. :)
I said it should be Harris, Biden, or Buttigieg...
Title: Re: Who should be the Democratic nominee for President in 2020?
Post by: oren on August 03, 2019, 10:45:13 AM
I'd say the Democrat would say it is awful and that EVERYONE need to reduce their consumption etc., both other people and themselves. While the republican would say he knows it exists, but he prefers to officially deny it while having other people unknowingly foot the bill. But I bow to your superior knowledge.
Title: Re: Who should be the Democratic nominee for President in 2020?
Post by: bbr2314 on August 03, 2019, 10:52:31 AM
I'd say the Democrat would say it is awful and that EVERYONE need to reduce their consumption etc., both other people and themselves. While the republican would say he knows it exists, but he prefers to officially deny it while having other people unknowingly foot the bill. But I bow to your superior knowledge.
Why does Al Gore have a 7K sqft mansion, why does Leo have a private jet, why does Bernie fly first class, etc? They say blah blah blah and they do whatever they do, they don't really have anything in common.

For the record I live in a small apartment, I don't own a car, I take public transit whenever possible (which is most of the time), my only indulgence is sitting at the front of planes and I am 6'3 so it isn't like that is unreasonable. I guess I eat a lot of different kinds of proteins as well. But, all in all, I do watch what I consume, and I think that increasing tariffs on goods from abroad is perhaps the best way to encourage the same behavior amongst those who do not care quite as much (or at all).

In this regard, Trump is leagues ahead of the Democrats, and they bemoan the policy of tariffs precisely because it DOES reduce peoples' ability to spend $ on items that are especially environmentally destructive (consumer electronics in particular). !
Title: Re: Who should be the Democratic nominee for President in 2020?
Post by: oren on August 03, 2019, 12:33:20 PM
Wow, and all this time I thought fossil fuels were the type of consumption most environmentally destructive and that it's they that should be tariffed, including those extracted domestically. Of course, I now realize consumer electronics (only those from abroad, specifically from China) are the main culprit. Kudos to Trump.

Why does Oren drive a car, and still calls for very high taxes on gasoline? Hypocrite who wants only others to reduce consumption? Or someone who knows what the right (partial) solution is, even if it will hurt him as much as others.
Title: Re: Who should be the Democratic nominee for President in 2020?
Post by: bbr2314 on August 03, 2019, 09:15:00 PM
Wow, and all this time I thought fossil fuels were the type of consumption most environmentally destructive and that it's they that should be tariffed, including those extracted domestically. Of course, I now realize consumer electronics (only those from abroad, specifically from China) are the main culprit. Kudos to Trump.

Why does Oren drive a car, and still calls for very high taxes on gasoline? Hypocrite who wants only others to reduce consumption? Or someone who knows what the right (partial) solution is, even if it will hurt him as much as others.

I am fine with tariffs on fossil fuels.... and more tariffs on more consumer goods from more places... but China in particular!
Title: Re: Who should be the Democratic nominee for President in 2020?
Post by: blumenkraft on August 03, 2019, 09:29:13 PM
You are trained very well to find scapegoats but let me ask you this, do you have a white scapegoat as well?
Title: Re: Who should be the Democratic nominee for President in 2020?
Post by: Neven on August 03, 2019, 09:37:16 PM
on topic, pls
Title: Re: Who should be the Democratic nominee for President in 2020?
Post by: budmantis on August 03, 2019, 10:22:22 PM
BBR, so if Sanders or Warren get the Democratic nomination, you're going to vote for ? (Trump)???
Probably

BBR, when I asked that question, I really didnt expect the answer you gave.


I'm sure you're aware that he doesnt believe in AGW?
Title: Re: Who should be the Democratic nominee for President in 2020?
Post by: bbr2314 on August 03, 2019, 10:24:04 PM
Yep, I'm aware, and as discussed, for all intents and purposes that is no different from any of the stances of the Democrats. They give lip service to the concepts but they don't actually know or care what is happening and they certainly haven't considered the implications of reducing aerosols. Also, they are worse on CC when it comes to a consumerist viewpoint, which is why they hate the tariffs on China.
Title: Re: Who should be the Democratic nominee for President in 2020?
Post by: Rich on August 03, 2019, 11:03:56 PM
I'm in Vegas at a small venue waiting for Bernie to show in ~ 1 hour.

The event is meant to be focused on employment matters, but I'm planning to throw in a question on climate change if I get a chance.

Nice thing about being in NV is that it's an early state where the primary vote counts :)

In 2015, I was shopping from SF to Reno on weekends to canvas for Bernie.
Title: Re: Who should be the Democratic nominee for President in 2020?
Post by: bbr2314 on August 03, 2019, 11:10:35 PM
I'm in Vegas at a small venue waiting for Bernie to show in ~ 1 hour.

The event is meant to be focused on employment matters, but I'm planning to throw in a question on climate change if I get a chance.

Nice thing about being in NV is that it's an early state where the primary vote counts :)

In 2015, I was shopping from SF to Reno on weekends to canvas for Bernie.
It's good to know you are as adept at wasting time in your day-to-day life as you are when posting on this forum.  ;D ;D ;D
Title: Re: Who should be the Democratic nominee for President in 2020?
Post by: Rich on August 03, 2019, 11:38:18 PM
I'm in Vegas at a small venue waiting for Bernie to show in ~ 1 hour.

The event is meant to be focused on employment matters, but I'm planning to throw in a question on climate change if I get a chance.

Nice thing about being in NV is that it's an early state where the primary vote counts :)

In 2015, I was shopping from SF to Reno on weekends to canvas for Bernie.
It's good to know you are as adept at wasting time in your day-to-day life as you are when posting on this forum.  ;D ;D ;D

LOL. I am a man fighting quixotic battles.

Like my Jewish ancestors in the Warsaw Ghetto, I'd rather die fighting than hop in a cattle car to Auschwitz.

It's not the outcome that counts, but the journey.
Title: Re: Who should be the Democratic nominee for President in 2020?
Post by: Klondike Kat on August 04, 2019, 12:30:10 AM
Three Minutes Of Joe Biden Getting Owned At The Debate

Biden is getting told what he did in the past, and you can see him regretting it. Lovely to watch.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aFd3r4IRyT0
This is literally just cannon fodder for 2020... a long, drawn-out Democratic Primary is the worst thing possible for a D victory in 2020 and it is increasingly looking like that is exactly what we are going to see. There is no party unity, there is no sense of urgency about defeating Trump, the same mistakes in 2016 are being repeated in an even more egregious manner this campaign cycle.

Actually, I believe that the Republican Party has the more drawn out primary and less party unity in 2016 than the Democrats.  The party kept trying to undermine Trump, but could not get out of their own, and he wound up with the nomination.  Trying to unseat a sitting president is difficult, especially in a thriving economy.  The major liberal candidates will likely be viewed as too extreme, and the electorate may be scared that their policies will put the brakes on the economy.  Biden, will not popular on this thread, has wider appeal, and may be seen as a good alternative to Trump.  People also have found memories of Obama, which benefits Biden, and not many of the other candidates, who appeared to attack his policies in the most recent debates.
Title: Re: Who should be the Democratic nominee for President in 2020?
Post by: TerryM on August 04, 2019, 12:49:56 AM
<snipped>
 People also have found memories of Obama, which benefits Biden, and not many of the other candidates, who appeared to attack his policies in the most recent debates.


Do you find the bolded true in your state/ region?
Is this just Democrats, or the entire spectrum of voters?
Would any of the candidates benefit from an Obama endorsement? - How about a nod from 1 or both of the Clintons?


Thanks
Terry
Title: Re: Who should be the Democratic nominee for President in 2020?
Post by: Rich on August 04, 2019, 02:55:46 AM
<snipped>
 People also have found memories of Obama, which benefits Biden, and not many of the other candidates, who appeared to attack his policies in the most recent debates.


Do you find the bolded true in your state/ region?
Is this just Democrats, or the entire spectrum of voters?
Would any of the candidates benefit from an Obama endorsement? - How about a nod from 1 or both of the Clintons?


Thanks
Terry

Hillary has met with all of the contenders behind closed doors except Bernie. Clinton's are still uber-connected, but their brand is a little toxic, so I don't think their endorsement is sought after.

Kamala Harris is the tightest connection to Clinton world. Her sister was part of HRC"s 2016 staff.

Everyone would love Obama's endorsement, but what's in it for Obama? No upside for him to back someone who might lose. Barack might fancy a spot on the Supreme Court.

Title: Re: Who should be the Democratic nominee for President in 2020?
Post by: Gumbercules on August 04, 2019, 05:14:54 AM
<snipped>
 People also have found memories of Obama, which benefits Biden, and not many of the other candidates, who appeared to attack his policies in the most recent debates.


Do you find the bolded true in your state/ region?
Is this just Democrats, or the entire spectrum of voters?
Would any of the candidates benefit from an Obama endorsement? - How about a nod from 1 or both of the Clintons?


Thanks
Terry
Barack might fancy a spot on the Supreme Court.


God help us.
Title: Re: Who should be the Democratic nominee for President in 2020?
Post by: Klondike Kat on August 04, 2019, 02:04:44 PM
<snipped>
 People also have found memories of Obama, which benefits Biden, and not many of the other candidates, who appeared to attack his policies in the most recent debates.


Do you find the bolded true in your state/ region?
Is this just Democrats, or the entire spectrum of voters?
Would any of the candidates benefit from an Obama endorsement? - How about a nod from 1 or both of the Clintons?


Thanks
Terry

Yes, I meant the Democratic voters.
Title: Re: Who should be the Democratic nominee for President in 2020?
Post by: Rich on August 07, 2019, 02:29:58 AM
Latest Reuters poll, post 2nd debate. Sanders 18%, edging up on Biden at 22%. All others in single digits.

There were just enough voters who wanted to break the establishment to put Trump over Clinton and into the WH in 2016.

Trump broke all of the rules of decorum, but he played ball with McConnell and the transfer of wealth to the rich only accelerated with the tax bill.

Sanders is the guy who will go balls to the wall to break the cycle of inequality. The demand for an anti-establishment figure is still huge.

I can't imagine how a wooden campaigner like Biden is going to hold off Sanders for another 6 months, especially with Warren pounding a similar message. He's not offering anything exciting and visionary for the future.

Bernie's got a hell of a ground game building up and over 1M unique donors. I think he has a great shot at winning it all.

https://graphics.reuters.com/USA-ELECTION-POLL/0100B05G09P/index.htmlp
Title: Re: Who should be the Democratic nominee for President in 2020?
Post by: petm on August 07, 2019, 03:49:51 AM
In an ideal world, Warren. Unfortunately, we live in the almost polar opposite of ideal. In the world in which we live, the first and only priority must be to defeat Trump. Therefore, Biden. He's too old and too old-school, but he'll be the most difficult for Trump to demonize (from the point of view of his white nationalist, sexist base), and therefore the most likely to win. Biden is good enough, and compared to Trump he's an angel. Or at least sane.

On second thought, I vote for this guy:   :D

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lhZV9tMgTTg
Title: Re: Who should be the Democratic nominee for President in 2020?
Post by: Rich on August 07, 2019, 06:14:27 PM
In an ideal world, Warren. Unfortunately, we live in the almost polar opposite of ideal. In the world in which we live, the first and only priority must be to defeat Trump. Therefore, Biden. He's too old and too old-school, but he'll be the most difficult for Trump to demonize (from the point of view of his white nationalist, sexist base), and therefore the most likely to win. Biden is good enough, and compared to Trump he's an angel. Or at least sane.


Why do you find Warren more ideal than Sanders?

If demonizing your opponent in the general election is important, then Sanders is the one in best position to demonize Trump.

If Biden goes after Trump as a racist, Trump will return fire by going after Biden's authorship of the Crime Bill and a very dubious legislative record regarding POC. Sanders has a much better record wrt POC.

We saw how Trump blunted Hillary's ability to attack him on mistreatment of women by highlighting her enabling of Bill Clinton's doing the same. Biden's history on race is the same. Poor.

Sanders can go after Trump on his promise to drain the swamp. Biden is kinda swampy in his connections. Sanders not at all.

Sanders can better go after Trump's failed promise to provide health insurance for everyone. He's trying to get everyone covered, Biden isn't.

Sanders can attack Trump better on fossil fuel ties. America became the world's leading oil producer under Obama-Biden.

Trump will have nothing to attack Sanders with except the socialist label and Bernie will hammer into the American psyche what he intends to do. That is going to bring the non-voters to polls in large numbers. Sanders gives young people and working class voters a reason to show up and vote that Biden doesn't. 

Warren is Bernie-lite. Sanders is the OG.
Title: Re: Who should be the Democratic nominee for President in 2020?
Post by: Rich on August 08, 2019, 05:02:27 AM
Sanders appearance on Joe Rogan's podcast has gone absolutely viral. Over 3 million views in 24 hours and #1 on YouTube.

He may be our last chance before the oligarchs shut down the internet.

Edit: > 4 M views
Edit > 6M views (YouTube only)
Title: Re: Who should be the Democratic nominee for President in 2020?
Post by: Klondike Kat on August 08, 2019, 09:50:05 PM
Latest Reuters poll, post 2nd debate. Sanders 18%, edging up on Biden at 22%. All others in single digits.

There were just enough voters who wanted to break the establishment to put Trump over Clinton and into the WH in 2016.

Trump broke all of the rules of decorum, but he played ball with McConnell and the transfer of wealth to the rich only accelerated with the tax bill.

Sanders is the guy who will go balls to the wall to break the cycle of inequality. The demand for an anti-establishment figure is still huge.

I can't imagine how a wooden campaigner like Biden is going to hold off Sanders for another 6 months, especially with Warren pounding a similar message. He's not offering anything exciting and visionary for the future.

Bernie's got a hell of a ground game building up and over 1M unique donors. I think he has a great shot at winning it all.

https://graphics.reuters.com/USA-ELECTION-POLL/0100B05G09P/index.htmlp

Funny that you chose the poll most favorable to your candidate.  All others have Biden at over 30%, and more than the next two candidates combined.
Title: Re: Who should be the Democratic nominee for President in 2020?
Post by: Tom_Mazanec on August 09, 2019, 02:27:56 AM
Warren would pay farmers to fight AGW:
https://thehill.com/policy/energy-environment/456547-warren-to-pay-farmers-to-fight-climate-change-under-new-plan
Title: Re: Who should be the Democratic nominee for President in 2020?
Post by: wili on August 09, 2019, 03:20:41 AM
Maybe we need to stop paying farmers to do things that are ecologically damaging and CO2/methane producing. I just heard that a huge portion of dairy farm income is government subsidy. That's just sick.
Title: Re: Who should be the Democratic nominee for President in 2020?
Post by: Rich on August 09, 2019, 07:36:13 PM
Out of 59k Democratic donors in Michigan, 51k have given to the Sanders campaign.

No other candidates have more than 20k.

There are polls and there is hard data as reported to the FEC. Polls can be rigged.

https://www.detroitnews.com/story/news/politics/2019/08/08/heres-how-much-cash-2020-democrats-raised-michigan-try-beat-trump/1954031001/
Title: Re: Who should be the Democratic nominee for President in 2020?
Post by: blumenkraft on August 10, 2019, 06:47:59 AM
Joe Biden Suddenly Realizes He Said Something Horribly Dumb

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BzGq30_480Q
Title: Re: Who should be the Democratic nominee for President in 2020?
Post by: blumenkraft on August 10, 2019, 07:46:01 AM
Warren & Sanders Top New 2020 Democratic Primary Poll - Dem 2020 Presidential Polls August 2019

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-WW2DQhzWCg
Title: Re: Who should be the Democratic nominee for President in 2020?
Post by: Rich on August 12, 2019, 06:54:29 AM
Almost 6 months to go until the first vote and Biden is leaking oil.

Sanders v. Warren could bring some interesting debates in the spring if it boils down to those two.

Title: Re: Who should be the Democratic nominee for President in 2020?
Post by: budmantis on August 12, 2019, 07:01:12 AM
Agree about Biden, he's gaffing himself to death! But don't forget about Kamala Harris.
Title: Re: Who should be the Democratic nominee for President in 2020?
Post by: TerryM on August 12, 2019, 08:24:34 AM
Agree about Biden, he's gaffing himself to death! But don't forget about Kamala Harris.


or Tulsi Gabbard.
She's a fresh face on the circuit and she chooses her battles well.
If "Out with the Old" becomes the rallying cry of 2020 Democrats, she's someone to rally around.
If foreign policy becomes the battle ground she can go toe to toe with Trump (or Biden).
If Military experience should matter, she's been vetted.


Terry
Title: Re: Who should be the Democratic nominee for President in 2020?
Post by: Rich on August 12, 2019, 12:47:52 PM
Agree about Biden, he's gaffing himself to death! But don't forget about Kamala Harris.


or Tulsi Gabbard.
She's a fresh face on the circuit and she chooses her battles well.
If "Out with the Old" becomes the rallying cry of 2020 Democrats, she's someone to rally around.
If foreign policy becomes the battle ground she can go toe to toe with Trump (or Biden).
If Military experience should matter, she's been vetted.


Terry

If pigs had wings, they might fly. Tulsi is polling at 1%. She isn't a contender.

Kamala Harris? A talented politician, but not in 2020. Sanders and Warren are winning the authenticity battle and aren't doing the big donor fundraising circuit. 
Title: Re: Who should be the Democratic nominee for President in 2020?
Post by: cognitivebias2 on August 12, 2019, 01:57:31 PM
I think if anyone over 70 is the nominee it will be bad for the party.  Sorry Joe and Bernie, but its time for a new generation.  Warren does not seem her 70 years, so she maybe is on the borderline.  Someone else would be my choice, it does not matter what their current poll numbers say.
Title: Re: Who should be the Democratic nominee for President in 2020?
Post by: Rich on August 12, 2019, 02:01:21 PM
What's important to Democratic voters?

1) Name recognition / history

Biden, Sanders and Warren were the most well known candidates prior to the race and no surprise they are leading the pack.

Harris and Buttigieg are increasing their profiles but lagging in record.

2) Beating Trump

Biden polls best vs. Trump, followed closely by Sanders.

3) Identity politics

Biden leading with black voters as a result of his Obama connection (despite a lousy record on race issues).

For those set on voting for a woman, Warren is the best prospect.

Mayor Pete has his gay male bloc.

4) Addressing inequality

Sanders 1. Warren 2. Neither is doing big money fundraisers. Sanders dominates among young voters and those making < 50k. Warren's supporters are more affluent and better educated.

5) Health care

A subset of addressing inequality but important enough. Again it's Sanders, then Warren.

6) Climate emergency

TBD

7) Media influence

The MSM is going to kneecap or ignore Sanders at every opportunity. He's battling that as best he can. 8M+ views on his Joe Rogan interview is a good sign.

8- Age

Biden and Sanders would be the oldest POTUS ever elected by a considerable margin. Warren would be over 70 as well, but she has the edge in comparison.

Biden is actually showing signs of senility on the trail. Sanders maintains an extraordinarily busy schedule and is much more in command of his message. His events are packed with young people.

Outlook

Perhaps wishful thinking, but I think Biden fades due to his many flaws as a candidate.

I think Warren s/b the betting favorite at this point in large part because of the media antipathy for Sanders. A big issue will be the head to head polling vs. Trump.

Sanders appeals to a lot of voters who might not otherwise show up in a general election. If Sanders continues to poll much better than Warren vs. Trump, he's the better choice.

I'm with Bernie. I want the revolution. I want the guy who is going to go toe to toe with the oligarchs and their purchased media and Congress critters.
Title: Re: Who should be the Democratic nominee for President in 2020?
Post by: cognitivebias2 on August 12, 2019, 02:23:12 PM
Nice post Rich.

I think calling for a revolution (or the revolutionary candidate) is a losing position in the general election, but I appreciate the sentiment.

Sanders sometimes, to me at least, appears as just an angry old man.  At his best he is my favorite also, but he is not always in his element. 

Warren has the strongest message on policy/solutions (imo). 

The problem with any woman being nominee is (imo) a built in bias, especially in some of the battleground states.  The nominee will have to be brutal against the bullying attacks that they will face.  When a woman in American politics is brutal she is portrayed as a bitch (by MSM), whereas a man is portrayed as tough.

If Bernie is the nominee, and he fades due to age, and hands it to Trump... well that's a catastrophe.

Whomever is the nominee, I will be voting and pulling for them.  The great national embarrassment that is the Trump presidency must end.

 
Title: Re: Who should be the Democratic nominee for President in 2020?
Post by: blumenkraft on August 12, 2019, 04:41:13 PM
Erm, no, Cognitivebias2.

Quote
I think if anyone over 70 is the nominee it will be bad for the party.

In politics, this is a completely arbitrary line. This is about politics and not a beauty competition.

It needs to be a principled, consequent and intelligent candidate. There is only one candidate checking all these boxes.

Quote
I think calling for a revolution (or the revolutionary candidate) is a losing position

This is exactly how you win the presidency. The orange fart ran on a revolutionary idea, (i.e. 'drain the swamp'). Obama won on 'Change' in general. Not that they meant it, but this brought them votes - a shitton of votes.

Bernie actually means it. He is fighting for the issues for 50 years. He will not change his mind in his seniority.

A non-populist candidate will lose against the orange fart. Ask your conservative friends if you don't believe me, they will confirm that.

Quote
Sanders sometimes, to me at least, appears as just an angry old man

I don't understand this argument at all. If you talk about all those outrages American problems and don't get angry, you are not taking this shit seriously. You need to understand the issues and once you understand them, you get angry. It's just a natural consequence. It's human and it's appropriate.

At this point, if your candidate doesn't fight like a lion, the country has no chance to improve.

Quote
Warren has the strongest message on policy/solutions (imo).

Her message is entirely stolen from Sanders. How can she have the strongest message then? There is an obvious logical flaw in this argument.

Also, she is the one who especially mentioned she would be open for corporate donors right after the primaries. She can't be trusted. She is a brilliant politician, but she will use this for gaining power, not to fight for the people.

She is only one of the many status quo candidates.

Quote
If Bernie is the nominee, and he fades due to age, and hands it to Trump... well that's a catastrophe.

The orange fart is 73, Bernie is 77.
Life expectancy for a 73 yo is 12.43 years.
Life expectancy for a 77 yo is 10.00 years.

(Edit: Sorry, had the female numbers at first, fixed it now)

The difference is marginal and given the farts orange health i would guess Bernie will live during the orange funeral (can't wait!).

Quote
Whomever is the nominee, I will be voting and pulling for them.

And while i disagree with you so much here, this is golden and is 100% true. Every democrat (lower d!!) should vote for whoever the Democratic nominee is. Period.
Title: Re: Who should be the Democratic nominee for President in 2020?
Post by: blumenkraft on August 12, 2019, 04:49:56 PM
Perhaps wishful thinking, but I think Perhaps wishful thinking, but I think Biden fades due to his many flaws as a candidate.


Biden will fade, that's a given.
Title: Re: Who should be the Democratic nominee for President in 2020?
Post by: Klondike Kat on August 12, 2019, 07:35:41 PM
Perhaps wishful thinking, but I think Perhaps wishful thinking, but I think Biden fades due to his many flaws as a candidate.


Biden will fade, that's a given.

I disagree.  I think Biden will secure the nomination before the convention.  Warren is the only candidate polling well enough to have a chance.  Sanders numbers are stuck in the high teens, and seem unlikely to budge much.  The rest are the ones that are fading.
Title: Re: Who should be the Democratic nominee for President in 2020?
Post by: TerryM on August 12, 2019, 08:38:56 PM
Warren's claim to native heritage may have helped her get into university, or get a good job, or get elected, but in the hands of Trump it dooms her candidacy.


I'ts a fatal error that will drive away Native Americans, and their supporters, and those with prejudice, and those who entered good Universities on their own merit, and those who were turned away from good Universities, and those who believe that politicians always cheat.


Is there any sector of America that approves of this?
Is there any chance that Trump won't mention this at every whistle stop?
Is there a reason that Republicans are keeping this powder dry during the Democratic primaries?


Once Trump dubbed her "Pocahontas" her chances of winning dropped to zero.
Once she took his challenge and the fatal DNA test she was cooked.
Trump isn't the brightest bulb on the tree, but when he sees a weakness he's like a bull terrier.


We need a new Great Democratic Hope, and this wannabe needs to retire before she gets herself nominated. This albatross she's wearing isn't going to fly away.
Terry
Title: Re: Who should be the Democratic nominee for President in 2020?
Post by: blumenkraft on August 12, 2019, 08:41:31 PM
I disagree.

Kat, you already disagreed when i said he will drop in the polls. Well, he dropped in the polls.  8)
Title: Re: Who should be the Democratic nominee for President in 2020?
Post by: TerryM on August 12, 2019, 08:48:23 PM
When's the first state wide contest? Remember Jimmy Who?
Terry
Title: Re: Who should be the Democratic nominee for President in 2020?
Post by: Neven on August 12, 2019, 10:24:41 PM
Biden can only get the nomination through massive media support and even more cheating. Terry nailed it about Warren. Only Sanders has a fighting chance, but I'm quite sure something is going to happen to prevent that from happening. That's what American elections are all about: Keep progressives out, protect the donors.
Title: Re: Who should be the Democratic nominee for President in 2020?
Post by: wili on August 12, 2019, 10:38:14 PM
I'm still primarily for Bernie... he's the real thing.

But I think you dismiss Warren to readily. Even dignifying the ridiculous trumped up (literally) story about her slight indigenous heritage by mentioning it is falling into the most ridiculous of right wing tempest-out-of-a-teapot-ism. And pretending it would be somehow fatal if she alienated the Native American vote (barely 2% of the population), which she hasn't is really beyond ridiculous.

It sadly seems impossible to have discussions about these kinds of things without otherwise intelligent people just spouting utter idiocies.

And that's all I have to say about that. :)
Title: Re: Who should be the Democratic nominee for President in 2020?
Post by: Klondike Kat on August 12, 2019, 11:41:20 PM
I disagree.

Kat, you already disagreed when i said he will drop in the polls. Well, he dropped in the polls.  8)

What drop?  He has hovering around 33% for the past month.  Unless you mean his drop from the high 30s, which was a euphoric bump after his announcement.
Title: Re: Who should be the Democratic nominee for President in 2020?
Post by: Tom_Mazanec on August 13, 2019, 02:11:13 AM
Steyer would declare environmental emergency on Day One of Presidency:
https://www.iowapublicradio.org/post/steyer-state-emergency-over-climate-change-day-one#stream/0
Title: Re: Who should be the Democratic nominee for President in 2020?
Post by: Bruce Steele on August 13, 2019, 02:34:18 AM
I'd like to see a Warren / Gabbard  ticket !  If Warren could get through 8 years and Gabbard another 8 we might have women deciding which wars we would walk into or which might be avoided. We might even have enough time to get the Senate back. I would think any Dem candidate would choose a military former member for Vice. Tutsi would send shudders through the pentagon but somebody is going to tell them the sad truth about endless growth, and endless war.  Doesn't anyone remember 8 years of Bush 2 ?
It's like all the wars are over. Where are my damn rose colored glasses ?
Title: Re: Who should be the Democratic nominee for President in 2020?
Post by: Rich on August 13, 2019, 03:09:12 AM
The oligarchs have acquired everything else in America, why not the pollsters as well?

The beauty of Iowa going first is that it's hard to cheat in a caucus. The DNC has cut back on caucuses in 2020 and is allowing virtual participation to count in Iowa for the first time.

The biggest crowds, volunteer base and the highest # of donors belong to Sanders.

If Warren tops him in Iowa and NH, Sanders will give her his full endorsement and drop out. Harris would also likely endorse Warren in order to maximize her own political future as a fellow supporter of Medicare For All.

I think Warren beats Trump while acknowledging she isn't as solid as Bernie in the Rust Belt states in a general election. Warren doesn't have Clinton like baggage and Trump has demonstrated that he's wacko.

Sanders is the kryptonite against Trump. Trump's faux anti-establishment rhetoric falls flat against the authentic populist. Bernie killed it on his Fox town hall and on Joe Rogan. He packs houses in W. Virginia, Kentucky and Kansas. He's the one Trump is wary of.

Sanders is the avatar for the average citizen getting ground down by concentrated wealth. The 1% is putting all their chips in to stop him.
Title: Re: Who should be the Democratic nominee for President in 2020?
Post by: Klondike Kat on August 13, 2019, 03:20:08 AM
I doubt she can beat Sanders in both, and may not top him in either.  Sanders did well in Iowa in 2016, and, as you say, the biggest crowds, donors, etc. belong to Sanders.
Title: Re: Who should be the Democratic nominee for President in 2020?
Post by: TerryM on August 13, 2019, 04:21:13 AM
I'd like to see a Warren / Gabbard  ticket !  If Warren could get through 8 years and Gabbard another 8 we might have women deciding which wars we would walk into or which might be avoided. We might even have enough time to get the Senate back. I would think any Dem candidate would choose a military former member for Vice. Tutsi would send shudders through the pentagon but somebody is going to tell them the sad truth about endless growth, and endless war.  Doesn't anyone remember 8 years of Bush 2 ?
It's like all the wars are over. Where are my damn rose colored glasses ?


I'd support Tulsi in either position paired with anyone but Biden. A Biden candidacy would cause me to consider write the in candidates.


Where has sidd been hiding when we need his read of the Deplorables?
Title: Re: Who should be the Democratic nominee for President in 2020?
Post by: sedziobs on August 13, 2019, 05:13:10 PM
Tulsi appears unlikely to qualify for the next debate. She needs at least 2% in four polls by August 28, but she only has one so far. She did post 3 and 5 percent in the last two New Hampshire polls, but neither were performed by qualifying organizations.

Warren was ahead of Sanders by 10+ points in the two most recent recent Iowa polls. She has been tied or ahead of Biden in 3 of the last 5.
Title: Re: Who should be the Democratic nominee for President in 2020?
Post by: blumenkraft on August 13, 2019, 06:09:00 PM
I doubt she can beat Sanders in both, and may not top him in either.  Sanders did well in Iowa in 2016, and, as you say, the biggest crowds, donors, etc. belong to Sanders.

Oh, i like that tone, Kat. :)
Title: Re: Who should be the Democratic nominee for President in 2020?
Post by: blumenkraft on August 13, 2019, 06:15:56 PM
She needs at least 2% in four polls by August 28, but she only has one so far. She did post 3 and 5 per cent in the last two New Hampshire polls, but neither were performed by qualifying organizations.

Some nifty detail right there.

Only one of the many ways the DNC draws arbitrary lines in order to manipulate. With something like "qualifying organizations", you influence how the polls are conducted, where the polls are taking place and when, right?
Title: Re: Who should be the Democratic nominee for President in 2020?
Post by: blumenkraft on August 13, 2019, 06:17:25 PM
Where has sidd been hiding when we need his read of the Deplorables?

Hope he comes back soon.
Title: Re: Who should be the Democratic nominee for President in 2020?
Post by: Rich on August 13, 2019, 11:58:14 PM
She needs at least 2% in four polls by August 28, but she only has one so far. She did post 3 and 5 per cent in the last two New Hampshire polls, but neither were performed by qualifying organizations.

Some nifty detail right there.

Only one of the many ways the DNC draws arbitrary lines in order to manipulate. With something like "qualifying organizations", you influence how the polls are conducted, where the polls are taking place and when, right?

In all fairness, Tulsi has no shot at the nomination. The DNC is definitely biased in favor of corporate Democrats and the debate moderation has been a shit show this far.

Qualifying for the Sept debate gets one into the Oct debate as well and there will be +/- 10 qualifiers. I'm hoping we get down to 5 or so for the November debate.

Beto, Booker, Klobuchar, Castro and Yang have no shot either. They've had 6 months to make their case and little traction.

We have to wait until at least November before we whittle down to the contenders.

Problem for the DNC is that 5 of the top 7 candidates support Medicare For All. They're going to have a hard time finessing things in a way that doesn't leave Biden on an island.

Title: Re: Who should be the Democratic nominee for President in 2020?
Post by: Klondike Kat on August 14, 2019, 02:00:20 AM
The longer that Sanders, Warren, Harris, and Buttigieg remain in the race, the more likely than Biden will get the nomination.  I rarely agree with Rich, but I will agree with his last post.  Those candidates will pilfer from each other, leaving Biden alone at the top.
Title: Re: Who should be the Democratic nominee for President in 2020?
Post by: Rich on August 14, 2019, 03:17:44 AM
My forecast is that Mayor Pete and Kamala drop out after collecting zero delegates in Iowa. They have political futures and don't need the experience of collecting zero delegates in state after state.

If Warren beats Sanders decisively in Iowa, he'll drop out and endorse her in a heads up battle vs. Biden. Sanders values his agenda more than his candidacy. His agenda has a much better shot with Warren as POTUS vs. Biden.

Would Warren return the favor if the shoe is on the other foot? 50/50. She stayed on the sidelines side in 2016. If Warren trails Sanders and remains as a spoiler, she will become a villain in progressive circles.
Title: Re: Who should be the Democratic nominee for President in 2020?
Post by: Tom_Mazanec on August 14, 2019, 03:26:10 AM
On the 50 year GOP drift from Green to anti-Green:
https://www.thenation.com/article/republican-environmentalist-virtually-extinct/
no longer after votes, but special interests.

Meanwhile, frank Luntz goes from anti-Green to Green:
https://www.vox.com/energy-and-environment/2019/6/21/18700218/republicans-climate-change-carbon-tax-grover-norquist-frank-luntz
Title: Re: Who should be the Democratic nominee for President in 2020?
Post by: Rich on August 14, 2019, 04:06:27 AM
https://thehill.com/homenews/campaign-polls/457235-sanders-overtakes-biden-in-new-hampshire-poll

Sanders takes the lead in Gravis  NH poll.
Title: Re: Who should be the Democratic nominee for President in 2020?
Post by: blumenkraft on August 15, 2019, 07:39:13 PM
Read the YouTube comments and you'll see the state of the nation.

Quote
"A society grows great when old men plant trees whose shade they know they shall never sit in."

Quote
Yo media/society has brainwashed me to believe Bernie was a just radical old nuthead. This hour and seven minutes completely changed my mind. I cannot believe how much I resonated with what he was saying!

Quote
Mainstream media warped my views on this guy, I actually agree with most of his thoughts

Quote
It’s crazy how mainstream media twists the images of people. I was completely mistaken about Bernie, I love his ideas & how rational they are. Definitely supporting him

Quote
Never was a Bernie fan... I also never gave the time of day to listen to his message to this extent, I relied on mainstream media and headlines... My mind is now open.

Quote
Left or right we can all agree that alternative long-form discussions like this are far superior to the sound bite factories in the mainstream media

Quote
Was a pretty anti-Bernie conservative before this podcast, but I do agree a lot with some of the issues he’s talking about so imma do some more research on him

Watch the whole thing!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2O-iLk1G_ng
Title: Re: Who should be the Democratic nominee for President in 2020?
Post by: blumenkraft on August 15, 2019, 08:56:40 PM
Media Claims Bernie Is Just Like Trump For Comical Reason

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lIRHqxYMg9w
Title: Re: Who should be the Democratic nominee for President in 2020?
Post by: blumenkraft on August 16, 2019, 09:46:56 PM
Warren & Sanders Top 2 State 2020 Democratic Primary Polls - Dem 2020 Presidential Polls August 2019

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2QQcgGRGYzo
Title: Re: Who should be the Democratic nominee for President in 2020?
Post by: blumenkraft on August 17, 2019, 04:23:59 PM
She gets it. Listen to that woman!

(https://i.redd.it/2pjnqh9lfzg31.jpg)
Title: Re: Who should be the Democratic nominee for President in 2020?
Post by: Tom_Mazanec on August 17, 2019, 08:33:47 PM
https://insideclimatenews.org/news/15082019/election-2020-agriculture-climate-change-solutions-candidate-positions-iowa
In Iowa, Candidates Are Talking About Farming's Climate Change Connections Like No Previous Election
About half the candidates have policy proposals or statements addressing climate change impacts on agriculture or farming's potential as a climate solution.

Title: Re: Who should be the Democratic nominee for President in 2020?
Post by: blumenkraft on August 18, 2019, 05:45:58 PM
(https://i.imgur.com/YbLfMXv.jpg)
Title: Re: Who should be the Democratic nominee for President in 2020?
Post by: sedziobs on August 20, 2019, 05:14:21 PM
Tulsi appears unlikely to qualify for the next debate. She needs at least 2% in four polls by August 28, but she only has one so far.
Tulsi Gabbard now has a pair of qualifying polls for the September & October debates, picking up 2% in the national CNN poll released today. The same poll also gave Julian Castro his fourth qualifying poll, meaning he has made the debate stage. Tom Steyer only received 1%, and still needs one more to qualify.

10 candidates have qualified as of now. It will be interesting to see if they decide to split the group up into two nights again.
Title: Re: Who should be the Democratic nominee for President in 2020?
Post by: blumenkraft on August 20, 2019, 06:53:46 PM
Joe Biden's wife just admitted her husband is not so great really, but everyone should vote for him anyway.

Sums up his campaign very neatly!
Title: Re: Who should be the Democratic nominee for President in 2020?
Post by: TerryM on August 20, 2019, 08:41:54 PM
Tulsi appears unlikely to qualify for the next debate. She needs at least 2% in four polls by August 28, but she only has one so far.
Tulsi Gabbard now has a pair of qualifying polls for the September & October debates, picking up 2% in the national CNN poll released today. The same poll also gave Julian Castro his fourth qualifying poll, meaning he has made the debate stage. Tom Steyer only received 1%, and still needs one more to qualify.

10 candidates have qualified as of now. It will be interesting to see if they decide to split the group up into two nights again.
And these polls need to be accredited by - - - You knew it, the polls need to be accredited by the DNC!


It's a big club, and Tulsi ain't in it.
With apologies to G. Carlin

Terry
Title: Re: Who should be the Democratic nominee for President in 2020?
Post by: cognitivebias2 on August 20, 2019, 09:22:50 PM
And these polls need to be accredited by - - - You knew it, the polls need to be accredited by the DNC!


It's a big club, and Tulsi ain't in it.
With apologies to G. Carlin

Terry

To be fair, who else would decide the criteria for a debate held by the DNC?  Looking over the list I don't see anything inherently biased.

From NPR:

For context, and for those playing at home, the DNC-approved polls have to be associated with or conducted by the following: the Associated Press, ABC News, CBS News, CNN, The Des Moines Register, Fox News, Monmouth University, NBC News, The New York Times, NPR, Quinnipiac, the University of New Hampshire, The Wall Street Journal, USA Today, The Washington Post and Winthrop University.

Per the DNC: "Any candidate's four qualifying polls must be conducted by different organizations, or if by the same organization, must be in different geographical areas."


Title: Re: Who should be the Democratic nominee for President in 2020?
Post by: sidd on August 22, 2019, 11:18:39 PM
Sanders on fire: "time for workers to win the class war"

“For 45 years there has been a war in this country waged by the corporate elite against the working class of America”

https://www.truthdig.com/articles/sanders-declares-its-time-for-workers-to-win-the-class-war-video/

sidd
Title: Re: Who should be the Democratic nominee for President in 2020?
Post by: sidd on August 22, 2019, 11:23:42 PM
Sanders on climate:

"a cash-for-clunkers and financial assistance program to scale up electric vehicle usage, and plans to boost public transit ridership 65 percent by 2030; a requirement that the Congressional Budget Office work with the Environmental Protection Agency to give new legislation a “climate score,” like the budget scores it currently doles out; and abiding by the United Nations Declaration on the Rights of Indigenous Peoples to ensure the free, prior, and informed consent by Indigenous peoples."

"rules out carbon capture and storage"

"he will get $3.085 trillion by making “the fossil fuel industry pay for their pollution, through litigation, fees, and taxes, and eliminating federal fossil fuel subsidies." "

"Sanders’s plan offers a battery of investments both in workers and communities already being hit hard by a decline in jobs in carbon-intensive industries like coal. His just transition provisions would provide five years of unemployment insurance, a wage guarantee, and a host of other benefits to workers, as well as $5.9 billion in funding to regional economic development agencies like the Appalachian Regional Commission. "

"Communities around the country could also receive financial assistance to take control of their private electric utilities"

“[p]rosecute and sue the fossil fuel industry for the damage it has caused”

https://theintercept.com/2019/08/22/bernie-sanders-climate-policy/

sidd
Title: Re: Who should be the Democratic nominee for President in 2020?
Post by: Tom_Mazanec on August 23, 2019, 03:11:37 AM
Democratic National Committee Denies Climate Debate
https://www.usnews.com/news/politics/articles/2019-08-22/democratic-national-committee-denies-2020-climate-change-debate
Quote
A DEMOCRATIC NATIONAL Committee panel on Thursday denied a proposal for a presidential primary debate dedicated to climate change, angering environmental activists who have put pressure on the organization to tackle the issue.
The resolution failed in a 17-8 vote from the organization's resolutions committee in San Francisco.
Title: Re: Who should be the Democratic nominee for President in 2020?
Post by: blumenkraft on August 23, 2019, 05:41:38 PM
Biden Advisor Pushes DNC To Reject Climate Debate

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=axY2OwXWS7c
Title: Re: Who should be the Democratic nominee for President in 2020?
Post by: blumenkraft on August 23, 2019, 11:32:27 PM
Joe Biden Struggling On The Campaign Trail

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g2Q0E2dzTJw
Title: Re: Who should be the Democratic nominee for President in 2020?
Post by: TerryM on August 24, 2019, 02:05:15 AM

^^

Aww
Such a shame.


BTW
Your new? signoff is fantastic!
Terry
Title: Re: Who should be the Democratic nominee for President in 2020?
Post by: Pmt111500 on August 24, 2019, 08:31:41 AM
Democratic National Committee Denies Climate Debate
https://www.usnews.com/news/politics/articles/2019-08-22/democratic-national-committee-denies-2020-climate-change-debate
Quote
A DEMOCRATIC NATIONAL Committee panel on Thursday denied a proposal for a presidential primary debate dedicated to climate change, angering environmental activists who have put pressure on the organization to tackle the issue.
The resolution failed in a 17-8 vote from the organization's resolutions committee in San Francisco.

Well, this IMO guarantees a low voter turnout specially among younger non-partisan voters, makes all democrat candidates equally bad, and we non-USAians may indeed have to enjoy the macabre humor of their current dolt in office for several more years, unless we're fast enough with the remotes.
Title: Re: Who should be the Democratic nominee for President in 2020?
Post by: blumenkraft on August 24, 2019, 11:03:12 AM
(https://i.redd.it/xasp6no81ai31.jpg)
Title: Re: Who should be the Democratic nominee for President in 2020?
Post by: TerryM on August 24, 2019, 04:38:26 PM
^^
Ramen !


Terry
Title: Re: Who should be the Democratic nominee for President in 2020?
Post by: kassy on August 25, 2019, 05:23:34 PM
Bidens climate plans will will outscore that? (not in quality but that was never his strong point)
Title: Re: Who should be the Democratic nominee for President in 2020?
Post by: Klondike Kat on August 26, 2019, 03:16:35 PM
Even Fox News says that the voting down of a climate change resolution by the DNC is a fatal error.

https://www.foxnews.com/opinion/liz-peek-democrats-dis-climate-change-voters-third-party-opening

The candidate who made climate change the forefront of his campaign, Jay Inslee, has dropped out.  That leaves Tom Steyer has the leading climate change activists among the remaining candidates.
Title: Re: Who should be the Democratic nominee for President in 2020?
Post by: blumenkraft on August 26, 2019, 08:12:24 PM
Bernie Sanders: We Must Transition Away From Fossil Fuel. Period.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gmQdRPUcsI8
Title: Re: Who should be the Democratic nominee for President in 2020?
Post by: sedziobs on August 26, 2019, 08:45:49 PM
In the national Monmouth poll released today, Sanders and Warren each received 20%, just ahead of Biden's 19%. Tulsi and Steyer didn't get any help qualifying for the next debate, both coming in under 2%. The deadline is Wednesday.
Title: Re: Who should be the Democratic nominee for President in 2020?
Post by: blumenkraft on August 26, 2019, 08:53:59 PM
Sanders and Warren each received 20%, just ahead of Biden's 19%.

Hey Kat, do you see that? ;)
Title: Re: Who should be the Democratic nominee for President in 2020?
Post by: TerryM on August 26, 2019, 11:12:42 PM
In the national Monmouth poll released today, Sanders and Warren each received 20%, just ahead of Biden's 19%. Tulsi and Steyer didn't get any help qualifying for the next debate, both coming in under 2%. The deadline is Wednesday.
Damn!
Terry
Title: Re: Who should be the Democratic nominee for President in 2020?
Post by: Tom_Mazanec on August 27, 2019, 08:30:33 PM
The DNC rejects a climate change debate and puts virtual caucusing in doubt
https://www.vox.com/policy-and-politics/2019/8/25/20832300/dnc-climate-change-debate-virtual-caucus-iowa-nevada-hack-democratic-national-committee
Quote
At its summer meeting in San Francisco this weekend, the Democratic National Committee (DNC) addressed two things at the top of many voters’ minds: climate change and Russian interference in the 2020 election. The decisions party leaders made on both points frustrated activists and fellow Democrats.

Members on Saturday rejected a proposal to allow presidential candidates to participate in third-party debates, effectively ending hopes for a debate focused solely on climate change. Activists and presidential candidates alike had long called for a debate on the issue, and one candidate — former Texas Rep. Beto O’Rourke — called the decision not to have one “baffling.”
Title: Re: Who should be the Democratic nominee for President in 2020?
Post by: blumenkraft on August 27, 2019, 08:41:50 PM
MSNBC Pundit Spouts Most Blatant Sanders Lie Yet

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J8vXwW0x9VA
Title: Re: Who should be the Democratic nominee for President in 2020?
Post by: sedziobs on August 27, 2019, 10:11:37 PM
Tulsi posted 3% in the national Emerson poll released today, yet another 2%+ result from a reputable organization that is not on the DNC's qualifying list.

Quote
For admittance to the September and October debates, candidates must secure polling results of 2% or more in four separate “approved” polls -- but a poll sponsored by the newspaper with the largest circulation in New Hampshire (the Globe recently surpassed the New Hampshire Union Leader there) does not count, per this cockamamie criteria. There has not been an officially qualifying poll in New Hampshire, Gabbard’s best state, in over a month.

The absurdity mounts. A South Carolina poll published Aug. 14 by the Post and Courier placed Gabbard at 2%. One might have again vainly assumed that the newspaper with the largest circulation in a critical early primary state would be an “approved” sponsor per the dictates of the DNC, but it is not. Curious.

To recap: Gabbard has polled at 2% or more in two polls sponsored by the two largest newspapers in two early primary states, but the DNC -- through its mysteriously incoherent selection process -- has determined that these surveys do not count toward her debate eligibility. Without these exclusions, Gabbard would have already qualified
RealClearPolitics (https://www.realclearpolitics.com/articles/2019/08/21/gabbard_victimized_by_dncs_dubious_debate_criteria_141055.html)

Title: Re: Who should be the Democratic nominee for President in 2020?
Post by: TerryM on August 27, 2019, 10:19:40 PM
sedz
It's a shame, but the DNC seems determined to replay 2016.
Wonder who they'll blame after the 2020 loss?
Terry
Title: Re: Who should be the Democratic nominee for President in 2020?
Post by: sedziobs on August 27, 2019, 10:49:13 PM
My hope is that after Super Tuesday there will be one candidate remaining from each of the following three groups (with current sum of RCP polling averages):

Progressive: Sanders/Warren/Gabbard/Yang (37.4%)
Centrist: Biden/Klobuchar (29.1%)
Establishment: Harris/Buttigieg/Booker/O'Rourke/Castro (19.2%)

Of course the candidates don't fit neatly into three categories, but I can see an eventual separation forming. A possible difference between 2020 and 2016 is that centrist and establishment voters may be split.
Title: Re: Who should be the Democratic nominee for President in 2020?
Post by: TerryM on August 27, 2019, 11:02:24 PM
My hope is that after Super Tuesday there will be one candidate remaining from each of the following three groups (with current sum of RCP polling averages):

Progressive: Sanders/Warren/Gabbard/Yang (37.4%)
Centrist: Biden/Klobuchar (29.1%)
Establishment: Harris/Buttigieg/Booker/O'Rourke/Castro (19.2%)

Of course the candidates don't fit neatly into three categories, but I can see an eventual separation forming. A possible difference between 2020 and 2016 is that centrist and establishment voters may be split.
You're an optimist, & we need more optimists.
Personally, I need an optometrist. :-\
I don't see a way out.
Terry
Title: Re: Who should be the Democratic nominee for President in 2020?
Post by: sedziobs on August 27, 2019, 11:58:05 PM
Andrew Yang released his climate plan yesterday.
Quote
Yang commits to abandoning fossil fuels, meaning zero-emissions requirements for all new cars by 2030, a 100% emission-free electric grid by 2035, net-zero for all transportation sectors by 2040, 85% methane recapture by 2045, and a fully "green" economy by 2049.
...
Yang also supports a “constitutional amendment requiring states and the federal government to protect, preserve, and improve the environment.”

How much would all of this cost? $4.87 trillion, according to his website. This would partially be funded by a carbon tax of $40 per ton, rising eventually to $100 per ton, which includes a fee on imports from countries that don’t impose a similar type of carbon fee or tax, the plan says.

Yang would additionally call for ending all federal subsidies for the fossil fuel industry, stopping all oil and gas development on public lands, and provide a $10 billion debt forgiveness fund for all “rural co-ops that are relying on non-renewable sources, and provide different financing options to these cooperatives to get them to move over to renewable sources.”
USA Today via Yahoo (https://news.yahoo.com/2020-white-house-race-democrat-020622699.html)
Title: Re: Who should be the Democratic nominee for President in 2020?
Post by: TerryM on August 28, 2019, 12:23:25 AM
No wonder Elon's got his back, even though Kimbal married into a family of loquacious Conservatives.
Who will poor Maye be supporting - or will she vote here in Canada?

Terry

Title: Re: Who should be the Democratic nominee for President in 2020?
Post by: Klondike Kat on August 28, 2019, 02:55:46 PM
My hope is that after Super Tuesday there will be one candidate remaining from each of the following three groups (with current sum of RCP polling averages):

Progressive: Sanders/Warren/Gabbard/Yang (37.4%)
Centrist: Biden/Klobuchar (29.1%)
Establishment: Harris/Buttigieg/Booker/O'Rourke/Castro (19.2%)

Of course the candidates don't fit neatly into three categories, but I can see an eventual separation forming. A possible difference between 2020 and 2016 is that centrist and establishment voters may be split.

I thing it may be down to three, but not one from each category.  Klobuchar will likely drop after Super Tuesday, staying in just long enough for the Minnesota primary. 

The entire establishment group may be gone, as they are each polling in the low to mid single digits (Buttigieg may opt to remain in name only until the Indiana primary in May).

The first grouping (progressive) is the most interesting, as several candidates may hang around, especially if they can pick up support from other candidates when they drop. 

My gut feeling is that it comes down to Biden, Sanders, and Warren.  The longer Sanders and Warren both remain, the more likely that Biden will win the nomination.
Title: Re: Who should be the Democratic nominee for President in 2020?
Post by: Tom_Mazanec on August 28, 2019, 03:40:40 PM
If Biden gets the nod, might a Progressive run as an Independant?
Title: Re: Who should be the Democratic nominee for President in 2020?
Post by: sedziobs on August 28, 2019, 04:19:22 PM
The entire establishment group may be gone, as they are each polling in the low to mid single digits (Buttigieg may opt to remain in name only until the Indiana primary in May).

The first grouping (progressive) is the most interesting, as several candidates may hang around, especially if they can pick up support from other candidates when they drop. 

My gut feeling is that it comes down to Biden, Sanders, and Warren.  The longer Sanders and Warren both remain, the more likely that Biden will win the nomination.
I can see Harris sticking around if she does well in California. She has led in 3 of the 6 polls there since July (Biden led two and Warren one). I think if there is separation between Sanders and Warren after Super Tuesday, whoever is trailing will drop out.

If Biden gets the nod, might a Progressive run as an Independant?
Doubtful. I think the only potential independent candidate at this point is Justin Amash, possibly joined by someone like Kasich.
Title: Re: Who should be the Democratic nominee for President in 2020?
Post by: blumenkraft on August 28, 2019, 05:56:40 PM
If Biden gets the nod, might a Progressive run as an Independant?

Seriously, AOC, Sanders, Omar, Talib, Khanna, and the other progressives should leave the DNC for a newly formed third party. The DNC would be so fucked...

They can draw at least 20% of the votes (IMHO). They could have leverage. Inside the corrupt DNC, they are played and nothing points to improvement.
Title: Re: Who should be the Democratic nominee for President in 2020?
Post by: blumenkraft on August 28, 2019, 05:59:29 PM
Progressive: Sanders/Warren/Gabbard/Yang (37.4%)
Centrist: Biden/Klobuchar (29.1%)
Establishment: Harris/Buttigieg/Booker/O'Rourke/Castro (19.2%)

I don't understand, how do you distinguish centrist and establishment?
Title: Re: Who should be the Democratic nominee for President in 2020?
Post by: blumenkraft on August 28, 2019, 06:00:47 PM
Wonder who they'll blame after the 2020 loss?

The voters, obviously. Who else? ;)
Title: Re: Who should be the Democratic nominee for President in 2020?
Post by: Neven on August 28, 2019, 06:08:35 PM
Wonder who they'll blame after the 2020 loss?

The voters, obviously. Who else? ;)

(https://www.theflagshop.co.uk/media/catalog/product/cache/1/thumbnail/9df78eab33525d08d6e5fb8d27136e95/u/s/ussr-flag-std.jpg)
Title: Re: Who should be the Democratic nominee for President in 2020?
Post by: blumenkraft on August 28, 2019, 06:11:05 PM
LOL
Title: Re: Who should be the Democratic nominee for President in 2020?
Post by: sedziobs on August 28, 2019, 06:52:39 PM
Progressive: Sanders/Warren/Gabbard/Yang (37.4%)
Centrist: Biden/Klobuchar (29.1%)
Establishment: Harris/Buttigieg/Booker/O'Rourke/Castro (19.2%)
I don't understand, how do you distinguish centrist and establishment?
Nothing scientific, just my impressions. I could have gone without the labels and just listed candidate groups.

I see centrists as promoting compromise with Republicans, while establishment candidates have standard liberal ideas and a lot of identity politics in their rhetoric. Healthcare could be a defining issue - Biden and Klobuchar do not support Medicare-for all (they favor a public option on an insurance market). The establishment does not support single payer.
Title: Re: Who should be the Democratic nominee for President in 2020?
Post by: wili on August 28, 2019, 07:34:35 PM
IOW, the Establishment Dem's are further right than most rightwing parties in most industrialized countries, and beyond!
Title: Re: Who should be the Democratic nominee for President in 2020?
Post by: blumenkraft on August 28, 2019, 08:52:55 PM
I see centrists as promoting compromise with Republicans, while establishment candidates have standard liberal ideas and a lot of identity politics in their rhetoric. Healthcare could be a defining issue - Biden and Klobuchar do not support Medicare-for all (they favor a public option on an insurance market). The establishment does not support single payer.

Thanks, i understand now.

Both centrists and establishment appear to me to have the same general political goal: Don't change. If anything they are incrementalists who don't want real change either but they make it look like that.

And for the candidates, no other than Sanders appears to me as if they want fundamental change. Money in politics for example. Which brings us to Warren who admitted to taking corporate donations after the primaries. She opted out of being progressive already.

Gabbard jumped the bandwagon way too often in recent memory. Therefore i can't trust her. Sanders is beating the same drums for 50 years now. He has proven to maintain a sane worldview throughout that time, i'm sure he will not change his mind all of a sudden when in office.

Yang is a useful idiot for the right. His UBI idea is basically the excuse to cut social security. It's not well thought out. Sanders ideas are solid and have proven to be positive on society when implemented. He's not playing around, he knows what he does. Yang doesn't.

Title: Re: Who should be the Democratic nominee for President in 2020?
Post by: oren on August 28, 2019, 11:41:45 PM
I think Sanders is the only one who can possibly beat Trump. Biden is more "centric" but inspires no one. Sanders is a populist - the right kind. For the people. He could stand up to Trump and give some rhetoric in return.
Title: Re: Who should be the Democratic nominee for President in 2020?
Post by: VaughnAn on August 29, 2019, 12:41:49 AM
I think Sanders is the only one who can possibly beat Trump. Biden is more "centric" but inspires no one. Sanders is a populist - the right kind. For the people. He could stand up to Trump and give some rhetoric in return.

I personally support Sanders and I will vote for him (first choice) as long as he is running.  I believe he can and will beat Trump soundly, even overwhelmingly.

Right now it can be very difficult to decipher what you hear from United States news media about politics.  There are many polls taken(completely unrepresentative, non random, and bias) designed to promote certain candidates.  Gallup Polls are probably pretty good but I have not seen any published results from them in some time so I am not sure they are even around.  They Young Turks publish fairly accurate news, albeit with a left bias which I personally think is mostly justified.  There are several news organizations like the New York Times and The Washington Post I usually trust as well.  BBC and other foreign news organizations like Al Jazeera probably have less bias reporting on United States political news than many US sources.  These are not the only more reputably sources, just some examples.  Good luck.
Title: Re: Who should be the Democratic nominee for President in 2020?
Post by: sedziobs on August 29, 2019, 04:06:42 PM
The deadline for the September debate has passed with Tulsi and Steyer not qualifying (they still have time to qualify for the October debate). For the first time, all candidates will be on the stage together.
Title: Re: Who should be the Democratic nominee for President in 2020?
Post by: blumenkraft on August 29, 2019, 05:36:31 PM
Cloudbootchar dropped out!  :)
Title: Re: Who should be the Democratic nominee for President in 2020?
Post by: sedziobs on August 29, 2019, 06:25:33 PM
Cloudbootchar dropped out!  :)
Do you mean Gillibrand?
Title: Re: Who should be the Democratic nominee for President in 2020?
Post by: blumenkraft on August 29, 2019, 08:31:22 PM
Oh, right! Sorry, i totally mixed them up.

There is not enough space in my brain for those people i'm afraid.
Title: Re: Who should be the Democratic nominee for President in 2020?
Post by: blumenkraft on August 30, 2019, 10:26:31 PM
Washington Post’s STUNNING ‘Fact-Check’ On Bernie Claim

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bOdwWTGSRgg
Title: Re: Who should be the Democratic nominee for President in 2020?
Post by: Ken Feldman on August 30, 2019, 11:45:47 PM
Here's the fact check that the video is complaining about.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/2019/08/28/sanderss-flawed-statistic-medical-bankruptcies-year/ (https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/2019/08/28/sanderss-flawed-statistic-medical-bankruptcies-year/)

Here are some excerpts.  The article is much longer and well worth reading.

Quote
“500,000 people go bankrupt every year because they cannot pay their outrageous medical bills.”
— Sen. Bernie Sanders (I-Vt.), in an interview on CNN’s “State of the Union,” Aug. 25, 2019
“500,000 Americans will go bankrupt this year from medical bills.”
— Sanders, in a tweet, Aug. 20, 2019
This claim from Sanders — that medical bills drive half a million people into bankruptcy every year — relies partly on research from former Harvard professor and now senator Elizabeth Warren (D-Mass.).
Sanders and Warren are seeking the Democratic presidential nomination, both running on a platform that includes universal health care and lower costs for patients. Interestingly, though, Warren doesn’t appear to make the same claim about 500,000 medical bankruptcies per year.
The Sanders campaign told us he was citing a statistic from a public health journal. Critics say the study he’s citing casts too wide a net because it counts anyone who mentioned medical bills or illness among their reasons for declaring bankruptcy, not just those who said it was the main reason or a big piece.

Quote
The federal courts recorded 750,489 nonbusiness bankruptcy filings in the year that ended March 31, down 0.8 percent from the previous 12-month period, according to data from the federal judiciary.
Sanders said 500,000 people were driven to bankruptcy by medical bills. A Sanders campaign aide said he was relying on an editorial published by the American Journal of Public Health (AJPH) in March.
That study, led by David U. Himmelstein, took a sample of bankruptcy court filings from 2013 to 2016, identified 3,200 bankrupt debtors and mailed them a survey. The response rate was 29.4 percent, with 910 responses and 108 surveys returned as undeliverable.

Debtors were asked whether medical expenses, or loss of work related to illness, contributed to their bankruptcies. Of those who responded, 66.5 percent said at least one of those factors contributed “somewhat” or “very much.”
Sixty-six percent of 750,000 is 500,000, so Sanders’s math adds up at first glance
.
“The majority (58.5%) ‘very much’ or ‘somewhat’ agreed that medical expenses contributed, and 44.3% cited illness-related work loss; 66.5% cited at least one of these two medical contributors—equivalent to about 530,000 medical bankruptcies annually,” the AJPH editorial says.

Quote
Craig Garthwaite, a health-care policy expert in the Kellogg School of Management at Northwestern University, said the study was flawed. “It’s basically saying that if you go bankrupt and you have medical debt, that’s the cause of your bankruptcy,” he said. “That’s not the way you can do this kind of analysis.”
He added: “Rather than looking at a sample of people who go bankrupt and see how many have medical debt, look at a sample of a bunch of people who have medical debt, and how many of them go bankrupt. And that gives you an idea of causality.”
A group of researchers tried that approach in a peer-reviewed study published by the New England Journal of Medicine (NEJM) in 2018. Looking at a random sample of California hospital patients between 2003 and 2007, they found that medical bankruptcies represented 4 percent of all bankruptcies. The patients were between ages 25 and 64 and included only those admitted to a hospital for non-birth-related reasons.

“Based on our estimate of 4 percent of bankruptcy filings per year and the approximately 800,000 bankruptcy filings per year, our number would be much closer to something on the order of 30,000-50,000 bankruptcies caused by a hospitalization,” one of the co-authors of the NEJM study, economist Raymond Kluender of Harvard Business School, wrote in an email.

Quote
The Pinocchio Test
This is a classic case of cherry-picking a number from a scientific study and twisting it to make a political point.
Sanders’s statements — “500,000 people go bankrupt every year because they cannot pay their outrageous medical bills” and “500,000 Americans will go bankrupt this year from medical bills” — are unambiguous. He’s saying medical debts caused those 500,000 bankruptcies. However, correlation is not causation, and the study he’s citing doesn’t establish causation for all 500,000 bankruptcy cases.
One of the authors sent us rough estimates showing that Sanders might be on target, but those numbers deserve scientific scrutiny before they can be taken as fact.
In the meantime, the statistic Sanders’s campaign cited includes bankrupt debtors for whom medical expenses may have been a minor or relatively small contributing factor. A different, peer-reviewed study arrived at a much different conclusion, suggesting the medical bankruptcy rate is far lower, although it measured only hospital patients and not all types of medical debt.
The omissions and twists are significant enough to merit Three Pinocchios for Sanders.

Title: Re: Who should be the Democratic nominee for President in 2020?
Post by: TerryM on August 31, 2019, 02:08:16 AM
^^
I'm in total agreement Ken. The worst year I ever experienced WRT medical expenses not covered by the best, most inclusive health insurance plan offered in Nevada that year was <$40k. Anyone who can't afford $40k/yr without declaring personal bankruptcy simply has no business getting sick.
Terry ::)


Sometimes borders make a difference. Here I write off hospital parking fees & my mileage, food and lodging (for two) if I use an out of town hospital.
Title: Re: Who should be the Democratic nominee for President in 2020?
Post by: blumenkraft on August 31, 2019, 07:17:10 AM
In a civilized country, no one dies or goes bankrupt because they don't have healthcare. The WaPo is committing barbary apology with this so-called 'fact-check'. There are people in the US without healthcare, the ones having healthcare pay double the necessary rate.

It's the unnecessary suffering Bernie wants to end!

The WaPo also reported these numbers. They did report these exact numbers, and only do a fact check when Bernie cites them! How is this not an obvious smear attack?

I trust the study more than the despicable spin the WaPo gives it. It's agenda-setting, not journalism.
Title: Re: Who should be the Democratic nominee for President in 2020?
Post by: blumenkraft on August 31, 2019, 01:19:34 PM
Bernie: We have no time for your bullshit.

(https://i.imgur.com/0HIPsQL.jpg)
Title: Re: Who should be the Democratic nominee for President in 2020?
Post by: Klondike Kat on August 31, 2019, 03:18:29 PM
Typical politician.  Make a false claim to bolster your agenda.  Say it comes from a reputable source.  Hope nobody checks the accuracy of your claim.  Two out of three ain’t bad.
Title: Re: Who should be the Democratic nominee for President in 2020?
Post by: blumenkraft on August 31, 2019, 03:44:57 PM
Yeah, that's the kind of nitpicking that's helpful. Just distract from the message...

His focus is on the actual issue which is the production of oil and gas. And there is nothing wrong with this.

If you think his reasoning is not scientific enough i have news for you, Kat. None of the candidates is also a climate scientist.
Title: Re: Who should be the Democratic nominee for President in 2020?
Post by: blumenkraft on August 31, 2019, 04:13:39 PM
Sharp as always! ;)

(https://i.redd.it/n913cqkjbpj31.jpg)
Title: Re: Who should be the Democratic nominee for President in 2020?
Post by: Tom_Mazanec on September 01, 2019, 01:29:34 AM
WHAT CLIMATE CHANGE DEBATE?
https://thephiladelphiacitizen.org/reality-check-what-climate-change-debate/
Quote
Black voters—and Democrats—worry about the environment’s effect on their lives. All the more reason, Charles Ellison argues, the DNC should not have nixed a climate debate
Title: Re: Who should be the Democratic nominee for President in 2020?
Post by: blumenkraft on September 01, 2019, 11:57:19 AM
Bernie: Why I'm An Existential Threat To The Democratic Party

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EzTAiB7gFj4
Title: Re: Who should be the Democratic nominee for President in 2020?
Post by: blumenkraft on September 01, 2019, 06:05:29 PM
What she said!
Title: Re: Who should be the Democratic nominee for President in 2020?
Post by: Klondike Kat on September 02, 2019, 02:51:52 AM
Yeah, that's the kind of nitpicking that's helpful. Just distract from the message...

His focus is on the actual issue which is the production of oil and gas. And there is nothing wrong with this.

If you think his reasoning is not scientific enough i have news for you, Kat. None of the candidates is also a climate scientist.

I was actually referring to Sander’s bankruptcy claims.  Sorry for the confusion.
Title: Re: Who should be the Democratic nominee for President in 2020?
Post by: blumenkraft on September 02, 2019, 07:00:45 PM
Yeah, that's the kind of nitpicking that's helpful. Just distract from the message...

His focus is on the actual issue which is the production of oil and gas. And there is nothing wrong with this.

If you think his reasoning is not scientific enough i have news for you, Kat. None of the candidates is also a climate scientist.

I was actually referring to Sander’s bankruptcy claims.  Sorry for the confusion.

No worries.

But here my answer also fits. He wants to fight bankruptcy or death due to shitty/no healthcare - with a damn good plan to achieve this goal! If the number he cites is indeed correct or not is not important here because only one person going bankrupt is barbary. Period.
Title: Re: Who should be the Democratic nominee for President in 2020?
Post by: blumenkraft on September 02, 2019, 08:05:13 PM
This happened.
Title: Re: Who should be the Democratic nominee for President in 2020?
Post by: Tom_Mazanec on September 03, 2019, 02:21:50 PM
Blumenkraft, what is that bird?
Title: Re: Who should be the Democratic nominee for President in 2020?
Post by: blumenkraft on September 03, 2019, 10:36:30 PM
RE: WYT smear job 'fact check' on Bernie!

https://mobile.twitter.com/GunnelsWarren/status/1168295531266924551
Title: Re: Who should be the Democratic nominee for President in 2020?
Post by: blumenkraft on September 03, 2019, 10:38:05 PM
Blumenkraft, what is that bird?

I think the bird is called Berdie! ;)
Title: Re: Who should be the Democratic nominee for President in 2020?
Post by: Tom_Mazanec on September 04, 2019, 01:17:50 AM
Well at least it wasn't called "Flip", like the bird of Mad magazine.
Title: Re: Who should be the Democratic nominee for President in 2020?
Post by: Tom_Mazanec on September 04, 2019, 07:15:43 PM
Julián Castro rolls out $10 trillion plan to fight climate change
https://www.cnn.com/2019/09/03/politics/julian-castro-climate-plan/
Quote
Castro's plan -- titled "People and Planet First Plan" -- aims to "direct $10 trillion in federal, state, local, and private investments" over the next 10 years. The Castro campaign estimates that the influx of investment will create 10 million jobs over a decade.
But Castro's plan also focuses on the racial impacts of climate change, citing a series of studies that found those most directly impacted by issues like toxic waste, asthma and pollution are more likely to be people of color and more vulnerable communities.
https://www.politico.com/story/2019/09/03/julian-castro-climate-change-1700257
Quote
Castro’s plan aims for the U.S. to achieve net-zero emissions by 2045, meaning any greenhouse gas pollution at that time would be offset by reforestation or other techniques. By 2030, his administration would aim for a 50 percent greenhouse gas reduction.

But here's a bargain  ;D
How Cory Booker would combat climate change
https://www.politico.com/story/2019/09/03/cory-booker-climate-change-plan-1698450
Quote
Sen. Cory Booker (D-N.J.) on Tuesday unveiled a $3 trillion plan to tackle climate change and invest heavily in cleaning up polluted sites around the country that disproportionately affect low-income and communities of color.

And let the ladies have a chance
How Kamala Harris would address climate change
https://www.politico.com/story/2019/09/04/kamala-harris-climate-change-1479993
Quote
“As president, I will hold polluters accountable for the damage they inflict upon our environment and set us on a path to a 100 percent clean economy that creates millions of good-paying jobs,” Harris said in a statement. “This crisis demands urgency and boldness, and as president, I will act.”

I never even heard of this guy  ;D
How Pete Buttigieg would tackle climate change
https://www.politico.com/story/2019/09/04/pete-buttigieg-climate-change-1479995
Quote
Buttigieg calls for generating 100 percent of electricity in the U.S. by 2035 without producing carbon emissions, a goal that would leave room for continued use of nuclear energy and the potential for natural gas or coal plants that would capture their emissions. By 2040, the plan calls for net-zero emissions for all new heavy-duty vehicles, buses, rail, ships and aircraft. And it calls for net-zero emissions from all other industries — including steel, manufacturing and agriculture — by 2050.
Title: Re: Who should be the Democratic nominee for President in 2020?
Post by: sidd on September 06, 2019, 01:48:30 AM
Prez on the Rez: First Nations and the candidates

"Two really critical states that I think will be in play because of the Native vote are here in Arizona, which is always a purple state, and Wisconsin. "

"Senator Sanders had a much bigger connection with the audience, but most of the media was gone at that point."

" in the 1950s, the Congress, the United States decided to terminate Indian tribes, and to end the treaty relationship. This is called the termination era. And from that era, there are still a bunch of laws on the books, including tribes not having jurisdiction over non-Indians. Elizabeth Warren went, and she really schooled herself on this, she raised the possibility of repealing the Oliphant decision, which is one of those termination-era bills."

https://fair.org/home/you-cant-know-this-countrys-story-without-learning-how-indian-country-fits-in/

sidd
Title: Re: Who should be the Democratic nominee for President in 2020?
Post by: Tom_Mazanec on September 06, 2019, 10:49:06 PM
Julián Castro’s Green New Deal frames climate as a civil rights issue
https://www.vox.com/policy-and-politics/2019/9/4/20849093/julian-castro-2020-democratic-primary-climate-change-green-new-deal-civil-rights-justice
Quote
Ahead of a major climate change Democratic forum on CNN, Democratic presidential candidate and former San Antonio Mayor Julián Castro has released his version of the Green New Deal, a climate change plan that closely aligns with his presidential bid. It is progressive, but not the most liberal of the climate proposals released so far, and focuses heavily on social justice and civil rights.

Castro bills his plan as “ambitious and achievable” — it calls for a $10 trillion investment over 10 years, putting him in the middle of the pack as far as cost is concerned. His rivals Pete Buttigieg and Beto O’Rourke fall at the low end, with proposals that cost about $2 trillion and $5 trillion, respectively; Bernie Sanders has called for a $16.3 trillion investment.

It’s Wednesday, September 4, and six presidential hopefuls have released climate plans ahead of CNN’s Climate Crisis Town Hall.
https://grist.org/beacon/its-climate-plan-christmas/
Quote
Klobuchar promises to “pass sweeping legislation” within her first 100 days in office that would put the U.S. on the path to net-zero emissions by 2050
Booker calls for the creation of a White House-coordinated Environmental Justice Fund, which would commit $50 billion a year to frontline communities
Warren nods to the gone-but-not-forgotten climate candidate Jay Inslee with a 10-year action plan to achieve 100 percent clean energy
Castro proposes legislation requiring all federal actions to be reviewed to see what sort of health and environmental impact they’d have on marginalized communities
Buttigieg plans to build “Regional Resilience Hubs,” with $5 billion in annual grants to invest in locally driven pre-disaster mitigation efforts
Harris would strengthen the EPA’s ability to legally enforce environmental policies and direct the Department of Justice to “address both cumulative and legacy pollution”

How Kamala Harris would address climate change
https://www.politico.com/story/2019/09/04/kamala-harris-climate-change-1479993
Quote
California Sen. Kamala Harris on Wednesday released her plan for addressing climate change, calling for $10 trillion in public and private funding to create a carbon-neutral economy and invoking her past as a prosecutor to target companies that are driving greenhouse gas emissions.

“As president, I will hold polluters accountable for the damage they inflict upon our environment and set us on a path to a 100 percent clean economy that creates millions of good-paying jobs,” Harris said in a statement. “This crisis demands urgency and boldness, and as president, I will act.”
Title: Re: Who should be the Democratic nominee for President in 2020?
Post by: sidd on September 07, 2019, 02:46:44 AM
Apparently I missed an important bulletin from America's Finest News Source: Buttigieg samples local wares in Iowa

"This is way better than the stuff they gave me in New Hampshire, I’ll tell you that much."

"This place is fucking crazy, man. You guys are fucking crazy. We’re gonna bring America back, we’re gonna bring America back, we’re gonna bring America back, we’re gonna bring America back, we’re gonna bring America back. God damn. Where am I?"

"promising that, if elected president, he would do everything in his power to end the scourge of centipedes crawling underneath the skin "

https://politics.theonion.com/pete-buttigieg-charms-crowd-at-iowa-truck-stop-by-sampl-1837218725

sidd
Title: Re: Who should be the Democratic nominee for President in 2020?
Post by: blumenkraft on September 08, 2019, 04:46:18 PM
Establishment Media Continues To Shake In FEAR Of Bernie

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0PzFIptcVJk
Title: Re: Who should be the Democratic nominee for President in 2020?
Post by: sedziobs on September 09, 2019, 05:15:37 PM
Steyer picked up his 4th qualifying poll for the October debate, so if no one drops out before then we'll finally have a debate with fewer than 10 candidates on stage.

Gabbard received 2% in the national ABC poll among registered voters, but only 1% among all Democrat leaning respondents. DNC says it doesn't count.  ???
Title: Re: Who should be the Democratic nominee for President in 2020?
Post by: Tom_Mazanec on September 09, 2019, 05:25:39 PM
CNN climate town hall finishes last in viewers among cable news broadcasts
https://thehill.com/homenews/media/460139-cnn-climate-town-hall-finishes-last-in-viewers-among-cable-news-broadcasts
Quote
CNN's 7-hour town hall on climate change with 2020 White House contenders finished last among the three cable news networks in terms of average total viewers, according to early numbers from Nielsen Media Research.

CNN averaged 1.1 million viewers from 5 p.m. to midnight, the hours devoted to back-to-back town halls by 10 Democratic contenders.

Democrats: Americans Won’t Pay Your Carbon Taxes
https://www.bloomberg.com/opinion/articles/2019-09-08/democrats-think-climate-change-is-a-winning-issue-think-again
[/quote]The “town hall” had a lot of excitement about the sorts of environmental policies voters have repeatedly rejected. [/quote]
Title: Re: Who should be the Democratic nominee for President in 2020?
Post by: blumenkraft on September 10, 2019, 02:29:13 PM
How Elizabeth Warren Raised Big Money Before She Denounced Big Money

Link >> https://www.nytimes.com/2019/09/09/us/politics/elizabeth-warren-2020.html

It's beyond me that people trust and support her...
Title: Re: Who should be the Democratic nominee for President in 2020?
Post by: SteveMDFP on September 10, 2019, 03:23:11 PM
How Elizabeth Warren Raised Big Money Before She Denounced Big Money

Link >> https://www.nytimes.com/2019/09/09/us/politics/elizabeth-warren-2020.html

It's beyond me that people trust and support her...

American politics has massive built-in corruption.  It now typically takes about a BILLION dollars to run a campaign for President.  If one doesn't raise such a sum, one has little or no ability to respond to smears and lies and disinformation.

There are occasional examples of people running credible campaigns while raising much less money.  Bernie Sanders has built his own brand over many years, and has a large cadre of enthusiastic supporters, who give many, many small donations.  These examples are vanishingly rare.

Donald Trump has honed an ability to grab the media spotlight, by saying things that get massive attention in the media.  For his whole life, he's transfixed the media with his antics, while obfuscating the nature of his actions.

These two examples provide no workable model for most people of good will who want to run in order to reform all the dysfunction.  They need to raise a billion dollars, somehow.

If one is prepared to give a candidate the benefit of the doubt, accepting money now while declaring an ambition to end big money in politics is not an inherent contradiction or hypocrisy. It's unavoidable necessity in a structurally corrupt political system.

For me, Warren has demonstrated a very good (not perfect) record of being a reformer and hard-worker.
Title: Re: Who should be the Democratic nominee for President in 2020?
Post by: blumenkraft on September 10, 2019, 03:46:01 PM
Steve, your post leaves me baffled.

While there is nothing wrong with your analysis, you end with how you like Warren?

You see the massive build-in corruption. What would logically follow this? In my world, this would mean to stop the support for money in politics.

You point out how Bernie is the candidate who achieved that goal already, but you don't end your post with 'and therefore Bernie is the real deal'?

You see how rare such a chance is, and then you dismiss it instead of grabbing it?

We now see the whole democratic mainstream narrative shifting because Bernie relentlessly beating the same drums for the last 50 years but you see Warren as the hard worker?

Healthcare for all, Green New Deal, minimum wage, etc, that's what all the candidates talk about because Bernie shifted the Overton window. It's his contribution to the country already before even being president - but you see Warren as the reformer?

Warren just recently voted for a completely overblown military spending. How is she not part of the machine you want to see go?
Title: Re: Who should be the Democratic nominee for President in 2020?
Post by: sedziobs on September 10, 2019, 04:26:42 PM
We now see the whole democratic mainstream narrative shifting because Bernie relentlessly beating the same drums for the last 50 years but you see Warren as the hard worker?

Healthcare for all, Green New Deal, minimum wage, etc, that's what all the candidates talk about because Bernie shifted the Overton window. It's his contribution to the country already before even being president - but you see Warren as the reformer?

Bernie and Warren have their differences, but both can be considered hard working reformers. Bernie can be "the real deal" and Warren can be a candidate worth supporting.
Title: Re: Who should be the Democratic nominee for President in 2020?
Post by: blumenkraft on September 10, 2019, 04:36:31 PM
Not if you actually care about the issues at hand, Sedziobs. You can't support Warren if you are somewhat consequent.

With Warren, you support money in politics and a huge military-industrial complex. With Sanders, you don't.

It's really that easy, it's all there in plain sight for everyone to see who wants to see.
Title: Re: Who should be the Democratic nominee for President in 2020?
Post by: sedziobs on September 10, 2019, 04:51:40 PM
I care about the issues at hand, and I care about nuances. I don't think there is a binary distinction between a Sanders utopia and a Warren hell. I will gladly accept Sanders, Warren, Yang, or Gabbard over any of the other candidates, and certainly over Trump. You'd probably consider me to be an incrementalist, which is fair.

FWIW, my experience living in rust belt swing states that went red leads me to prefer Sanders and Yang. They are the kind of candidates that factory workers will vote for.

Quote
For supporters of Donald Trump now disillusioned with his actions an improbable figure is emerging on the Left. Andrew Yang, a candidate for the Democrat presidential nomination in 2020, has received increasing support from disenfranchised working class voters in key “rust belt” states like Pennsylvania, Ohio and Michigan.

People who voted for Mr Trump in 2016 have increasingly been turning up at Mr Yang’s rallies, replacing their MAGA hats with ones that say ”MATH" - which stands for ”Make America Think Harder" - ”Yang Gang".

According to polls Mr Yang, along with Bernie Sanders, is the the only Democrat who more than 10 per cent of Trump supporters say they would consider voting for.
Title: Re: Who should be the Democratic nominee for President in 2020?
Post by: blumenkraft on September 10, 2019, 05:13:30 PM
Sanders utopia and a Warren hell

That's not what i'm saying. I'm saying i trust Bernie to change things in a meaningful manner. Because he already delivered. Because he is consistent. Because he is honest.

And i don't trust Warren because she is in the same boat than the ones who very much don't want any change.

Quote
I will gladly accept Sanders, Warren, Yang, or Gabbard over any of the other candidates, and certainly over Trump. You'd probably consider me to be an incrementalist, which is fair.

Well, when the primaries are over i will support the democratic nominee, whoever it is.

But this is not this time. This is pre-primaries and now we have the chance to debate. This is what's called the democratic process.

Don't fall for the stupid 'everything is better than Trump' argument. Any cashier at any random gas station anywhere in the country is better than Trump.

Quote
FWIW, my experience living in rust belt swing states that went red leads me to prefer Sanders and Yang.

You are right. People tend to vote populistic. Bernie Sanders i the one honest populist. Populism is the new electability.

(BTW, Yang is a right-winger according to his policies, but he stands no chance anyway.)
Title: Re: Who should be the Democratic nominee for President in 2020?
Post by: sedziobs on September 10, 2019, 05:39:25 PM
This is pre-primaries and now we have the chance to debate. This is what's called the democratic process.
Yes, which I am participating in by expressing my support for multiple candidates (a list much smaller than 'anyone but Trump'). I trust each of them to enact meaningful reform, as much as possible with a conservative Senate and Supreme Court.

Quote
(BTW, Yang is a right-winger according to his policies, but he stands no chance anyway.)
Please elaborate.
Title: Re: Who should be the Democratic nominee for President in 2020?
Post by: blumenkraft on September 10, 2019, 05:52:25 PM
Please elaborate.

Look on his stands on Israel for example.

Or better talk about UBI?

There are two trends in UBI. The right-wing version: Yeah, great idea to justify getting rid of the welfare state. Left-wing version: Don't touch welfare, have UBI on top (because the proposed 1k is nothing when it comes to medical bills for example). This is the sane version of UBI. Now, look at Yang's implementation.
Title: Re: Who should be the Democratic nominee for President in 2020?
Post by: sedziobs on September 10, 2019, 06:19:14 PM
He supports a two-state solution. His Israel stance may not be as far to the left as other candidates, but it's certainly not right-wing (especially in the US). On foreign policy, he seems more uninformed than right-wing to me.

Yang's UBI is on top of medicare-for-all and social security. He proposes replacing unemployment benefits and food stamps (programs that can reinforce poverty by disincentivizing earned income), not the entire welfare system. And even then a person can opt out if their benefits are higher than 12k. It's somewhere in between your right-wing and left-wing versions.

Overall, Yang's policies are definitely left-wing.
Title: Re: Who should be the Democratic nominee for President in 2020?
Post by: SteveMDFP on September 10, 2019, 06:41:31 PM


You point out how Bernie is the candidate who achieved that goal already, but you don't end your post with 'and therefore Bernie is the real deal'?

You see how rare such a chance is, and then you dismiss it instead of grabbing it?

We now see the whole democratic mainstream narrative shifting because Bernie relentlessly beating the same drums for the last 50 years but you see Warren as the hard worker?

Healthcare for all, Green New Deal, minimum wage, etc, that's what all the candidates talk about because Bernie shifted the Overton window. It's his contribution to the country already before even being president - but you see Warren as the reformer?
 

For all his time in Congress, Bernie has essentially ZERO legislative accomplishments.  He shows little ability to team with allies to accomplish concrete goals.

He talks a great platform.  He moves the content of the debate.  He's an inspiration.  But I don't believe he can be elected.  If elected, I don't believe he can get any of his agenda through Congress.

Warren has demonstrated impressive ability to enact reforms.  Her championing of the Consumer Financial Protection Bureau is proof.  This was anathema to Wall Street and big money.  It made good progress until the Trump administration de-fanged it.  She's worked tirelessly with anyone who will ally with her in pursuit of reforms.  I do note, however, that she's been an absolute whore for the medical device manufacturers in particular.  A key constituency in Mass.  A pragmatic necessity, as I see it.

In the current system, I don't believe any purist can be elected.  In this perspective, there is no contradiction at all with accepting Big Money while seeking to end the influence of Big Money.

Making progress within a deeply corrupt system cannot be accomplished by a lily-white purist.  We mustn't make the perfect the enemy of the good.

Bernie is an impractical, ineffective, but consistent idealist.  He's an inspiration.
Warren is a pragmatic, effective realist.  She can get things done.
Title: Re: Who should be the Democratic nominee for President in 2020?
Post by: blumenkraft on September 10, 2019, 07:09:30 PM
She can get things done.

Yeah, but is she at all willing to get done what she is saying today? I honestly doubt it.

Again i don't oppose your analysis. I just come to very different results.

As of his accomplishments, i would list shifting the Overton window in a positive way as mentioned above which is a great skill to have if you are president in a post-trump world. Or his proposed Bezos bill that forced Amazon to adopt the $15 minimum wage. I would also see his flawless voting record to be a very positive accomplishment. There are many more things that actually changed things in a positive way. He gets shit done, he has proven so in the past.

Ah, and BTW his bills and proposals seem to be so great, even Warren stole from him big time. ;)

Title: Re: Who should be the Democratic nominee for President in 2020?
Post by: sedziobs on September 10, 2019, 07:10:35 PM
I don't believe he can be elected.  If elected, I don't believe he can get any of his agenda through Congress.
If he's nominated, "electability" becomes moot and the establishment should fall in line. He has plenty of cross-party/independent appeal to win the election. Once in office he should get just as much congressional support as any other progressive. His record as a senator would have little bearing on how much influence he would have as president.
Title: Re: Who should be the Democratic nominee for President in 2020?
Post by: blumenkraft on September 11, 2019, 07:33:33 AM
Uh-Oh: Elizabeth Warren Has Been Talking To Hillary Clinton

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UNnvg3mRx1U
Title: Re: Who should be the Democratic nominee for President in 2020?
Post by: blumenkraft on September 11, 2019, 04:07:49 PM
Link >> https://twitter.com/KyleKulinski/status/1171172829334777856

Title: Re: Who should be the Democratic nominee for President in 2020?
Post by: Sigmetnow on September 11, 2019, 09:28:38 PM
Quote
Elizabeth Warren (@ewarren) 9/10/19, 5:39 PM
I'm Elizabeth Warren and I approve this message.
https://twitter.com/ewarren/status/1171538730621915136
Quote
CNBC (@CNBC)9/10/19, 3:09 PM
Wall Street executives are fearful of an Elizabeth Warren presidency, according to @MadMoneyOnCNBC's @jimcramer.
cnb.cx/2UOpK4n   
https://twitter.com/cnbc/status/1171500839686590464
3-minute video clip of CNBC analysts at the link.
Title: Re: Who should be the Democratic nominee for President in 2020?
Post by: Neven on September 11, 2019, 09:30:53 PM
Couple of good remarks in this one:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YbcGcR5RgYE
Title: Re: Who should be the Democratic nominee for President in 2020?
Post by: sidd on September 13, 2019, 07:24:10 AM
Buttigieg and Warren promise to pull out of Afghanistan unilaterally, even absent deal with Taliban:

https://thehill.com/homenews/campaign/461236-buttigieg-warren-pledge-afghanistan-withdrawal-even-without-taliban-peace

sidd
Title: Re: Who should be the Democratic nominee for President in 2020?
Post by: blumenkraft on September 13, 2019, 02:02:24 PM
One positive thing about Joe Biden, he recognises a president when he sees one.

Biden mistakenly refers to Sanders as 'the president' during debate

Link >> https://thehill.com/homenews/campaign/461208-biden-mistakenly-refers-to-sanders-as-the-president-during-debate
Title: Re: Who should be the Democratic nominee for President in 2020?
Post by: blumenkraft on September 13, 2019, 02:07:57 PM
Quote
Play the radio, make sure the television, excuse me, make sure you have a record player on at night, make sure that kids hear words, a kid coming from a very poor school, or a very poor background, will hear four fewer words spoken by the time they get there.

You can't say if trump or Biden, can you?
Title: Re: Who should be the Democratic nominee for President in 2020?
Post by: blumenkraft on September 15, 2019, 03:24:26 PM
Pretty funny and entertaining debate recap.

Quote
Exclusive: Bernie Sanders Talks About His Debate Performance | Useful Idiots

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u9dxEuVmt0Y
Title: Re: Who should be the Democratic nominee for President in 2020?
Post by: sidd on September 16, 2019, 10:38:39 PM
John Kass, a conservative, weighs in at chicago tribune: a study in authenticity

"if it were a contest in authenticity, Sanders would win in a landslide.:"

"But does that matter to Democrats? ... Sanders was the truly authentic candidate in 2016 ...   establishment Democrats were frightened ... rigged the presidential nomination against him ... They got the fake they wanted and lost."

"To them, authenticity is a commodity to be bought"

"I think there’s some there, there with Bernie."

"As a conservative I vehemently disagree with most everything he says."

"He pushes Medicare for All, knowing it will eventually knock 150 million Americans out of their private sector health care, and admits it means higher taxes on the middle class. But he doesn’t hide it or sugarcoat it like Warren, who wants those Bernie Bros for herself but doesn’t have the — what’s the word, guts? — to say it means a tax increase on the middle class."

"can Democrats handle the authentic truth?"

https://www.chicagotribune.com/columns/john-kass/ct-bernie-sanders-democrats-kass-20190914-3cueve7hdrgznjxsxdo4z5ccv4-story.html

sidd

Title: Re: Who should be the Democratic nominee for President in 2020?
Post by: wili on September 17, 2019, 03:49:56 AM
(not very) subtly sexist
Title: Re: Who should be the Democratic nominee for President in 2020?
Post by: Tom_Mazanec on September 18, 2019, 08:06:00 PM
Who Won The Debate Among Voters Who Prioritize Electability? Health Care? Climate Change?
https://fivethirtyeight.com/features/who-won-the-debate-among-voters-who-prioritize-electability-health-care-climate-change/
Quote
Part of the difficulty of picking winners and losers in a debate is that each voter brings a different rubric to the task. For example, a Democrat whose top priority is enacting stricter gun control may be looking for different things in a candidate’s performance than a voter whose sole objective is to get President Trump out of office. So to get a more nuanced picture of which candidates did well in last week’s third Democratic presidential debate, let’s break down reactions among these differently motivated voters.
Title: Re: Who should be the Democratic nominee for President in 2020?
Post by: blumenkraft on September 19, 2019, 08:48:30 AM
HEAR THE BERN [Podcast]

Future - w/ Harvey Kaye & Cornel West


Link >> https://www.blubrry.com/hear_the_bern/48984290/24-back-to-the-future-w-harvey-kaye-cornel-west/
Title: Re: Who should be the Democratic nominee for President in 2020?
Post by: Klondike Kat on September 19, 2019, 03:16:57 PM
Who Won The Debate Among Voters Who Prioritize Electability? Health Care? Climate Change?
https://fivethirtyeight.com/features/who-won-the-debate-among-voters-who-prioritize-electability-health-care-climate-change/
Quote
Part of the difficulty of picking winners and losers in a debate is that each voter brings a different rubric to the task. For example, a Democrat whose top priority is enacting stricter gun control may be looking for different things in a candidate’s performance than a voter whose sole objective is to get President Trump out of office. So to get a more nuanced picture of which candidates did well in last week’s third Democratic presidential debate, let’s break down reactions among these differently motivated voters.

Using the 538 metric of top issues, Elizabeth Warren definitely came out on top.  The next three year Biden, Booker, and Klobuchar.  On the flip side, Kamala Harris did the worst, followed by Castro and Sanders. 

On individual issues, Warren was tops in being able to beat Trump, followed by Booker and Biden, while Harris was last, followed by Sanders.  Regarding healthcare, Biden was well on top, followed by Yang.  Harris was at the bottom, followed by Booker.  Warren was well ahead on the economy, followed by Klobuchar, while Sanders was a distant last.  No one really stood out on wealth and income inequality, although the big three lead the pack.  Conversely, O'Rourke fared the poorest, followed by Harris and Yang.  Finally, on climate change, O'Rourke stood out strongly, followed by Booker.  Castro fared poorest, closely followed by Biden and Yang.
Title: Re: Who should be the Democratic nominee for President in 2020?
Post by: blumenkraft on September 19, 2019, 08:49:32 PM
Damn spot on! Trump is afraid of the other populist in the race, the honest one!

Quote
LEAKED: Who & What Trump Is Scared To Run Against

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aGpip7D0yvs
Title: Re: Who should be the Democratic nominee for President in 2020?
Post by: Tom_Mazanec on September 21, 2019, 01:01:23 AM
Sanders vows 'extremely bold and extremely aggressive' plan to fight climate change
https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/2020-election/presidential-candidates-talk-climate-change-forum-presented-msnbc-n1056336
Quote
Presidential candidates talked up their vision for fighting climate change Thursday, with Vermont Sen. Bernie Sanders and others promising "bold" action on an issue that has become a defining one for Democrats ahead of the 2020 election.

In total, 12 presidential candidates — 11 vying for the Democratic nomination and one Republican mounting a primary challenge President Donald Trump — are pitching their environmental plans during the two-day, town-hall style event taking place at Georgetown University's Institute of Politics and Public Service in Washington. The forum, which is hosted by MSNBC's Chris Hayes and Ali Velshi, comes amid a week-long series of climate coverage from NBC News, MSNBC, Telemundo and NBC News digital.
Title: Re: Who should be the Democratic nominee for President in 2020?
Post by: blumenkraft on September 23, 2019, 09:18:50 AM
Nate Silver Smears Bernie’s Diverse Base As ‘Residue'

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HyevHksLg-I
Title: Re: Who should be the Democratic nominee for President in 2020?
Post by: blumenkraft on September 23, 2019, 12:19:21 PM
Quote
A string of polls released last week suggest that support for Democratic presidential candidate Bernie Sanders might be underestimated, The Hill reports.

Although the polls show that Joe Biden remains the frontrunner and Elizabeth Warren continues to generate buzz, Sanders’ success in the polls and with strong grass-roots support reportedly puts him in a position to have a good chance of winning.

“He has the money, the campaign infrastructure and an intense base of supporters,” said one Democratic strategist. “Does he have a tough road to the nomination? Of course, all of the candidates do. But has he been overlooked so far? Absolutely. Out of all the candidates, he is the one you can definitely say is in this for the long haul.”

Link >> https://www.inquisitr.com/5649755/bernie-sanders-support-underestimated-polls/
Title: Re: Who should be the Democratic nominee for President in 2020?
Post by: TerryM on September 23, 2019, 01:17:58 PM
Blumenkraft
Is R-E-S-I-D-U-E this cycle's spelling of DEPLORABLE?


  Bernie & Tulsi
A pair to win with


And we will be proud of them even after the votes have been cast!
Terry
Title: Re: Who should be the Democratic nominee for President in 2020?
Post by: blumenkraft on September 23, 2019, 01:26:18 PM
Yep, you are not supposed to spell out the quiet parts as a corporate shill. Silver is just a very very stupid guy. I hate his guts!

Btw it's Bernie & Warren if you ask me, Terry. ;)

Title: Re: Who should be the Democratic nominee for President in 2020?
Post by: TerryM on September 23, 2019, 01:33:33 PM
As long as Biden is no where in the mix I can probably support the ticket, though at the moment I'm more concerned about keeping the Conservatives out of power here in Canada.
ABC = Anyone But Conservatives
Terry
Title: Re: Who should be the Democratic nominee for President in 2020?
Post by: sedziobs on September 23, 2019, 06:06:53 PM
I must be missing something with the Silver residue uproar. Here's the quote:
Quote
Not sure Bernie should get credit for having more diverse support than last time given that he has far less support than last time. A lot of voters have left him. White liberals have been particularly likely to leave him (for Warren) so the residue of what's left is more diverse
Dictionary.com defines residue as "something that remains after a part is removed, disposed of, or used." Silver is saying that Sanders has a smaller and more diverse group of supporters so far than in 2016 because Warren has taken many white liberals from him. Residue is an appropriate word to use in the context in which he used it. It is nowhere close to the same as deplorable.

I think a more important critique of Silver's point is that if one of them were to drop out, Sanders would much more easily gain the support of Warren's liberal whites than Warren would gain Sanders' diverse supporters (meaning Sanders is a better choice for progressive consolidation). But instead we'll all just scream about Silver's word choice while proclaiming hatred.
Title: Re: Who should be the Democratic nominee for President in 2020?
Post by: sedziobs on September 23, 2019, 06:10:10 PM
Tulsi picked up her third qualifying poll yesterday, so she needs one more in the next week to qualify for the October debates.
Title: Re: Who should be the Democratic nominee for President in 2020?
Post by: blumenkraft on September 23, 2019, 06:19:08 PM
Very good point, Sedziobs.

Still, Silver is a political dickhead with a huge and influential following. I'm going to keep pointing this out. He shouldn't have that credibility.
Title: Re: Who should be the Democratic nominee for President in 2020?
Post by: sedziobs on September 23, 2019, 06:30:48 PM
Don't you think it's better to refute his arguments than to call him a very, very stupid political dickhead that you hate? What will his huge and influential following respond to?

I'm going to continue to ignore Silver's personal leanings while using his models, which have been more credible than most.
Title: Re: Who should be the Democratic nominee for President in 2020?
Post by: blumenkraft on September 23, 2019, 06:37:54 PM
No, i do think it's better. And you did it quite well there.

The videos has some good points too, this is why i shared it.

Doesn't hinders me to hate the guy. ;)
Title: Re: Who should be the Democratic nominee for President in 2020?
Post by: sedziobs on September 23, 2019, 06:56:19 PM
Fair enough!
Title: Re: Who should be the Democratic nominee for President in 2020?
Post by: wili on September 23, 2019, 09:41:51 PM
sedz wrote: "I must be missing something with the Silver residue uproar"

It's at the level of connotation that most people use and understand language, most of the time.

Your definition is denotation.

And a key part even of the definition you gave is the first word: "something..."

It is relatively neutral when referring to inanimate objects. When referring to humans it is very demeaning in pretty much any context, at least that's how most native speakers of English would hear it. (And only someone who was non-native or completely tone-deaf would use it without intending some level of disrespect.)

I'm guessing you're not a native English speaker, perhaps?
Title: Re: Who should be the Democratic nominee for President in 2020?
Post by: sedziobs on September 23, 2019, 10:37:29 PM
I'm a native American English speaker. I'm also an engineer who uses technical terms when discussing humans, which comes across as uncouth to others. So it's possible that I am completely tone-deaf and therefore unaware that the word "residue" conveys disrespect. And to that point, I would actually be surprised if Nate Silver deliberately selected the word for its disrespecting connotation, rather than its denotation. I'm sure he is at least as tone-deaf as I am.

The uproar comes across as reactionary and opportunist to me. Jacobin uses demeaning language all the time with its ridicule directed at anyone but Sanders. I support Yang, but I don't throw a fit when Jacobin says something disrespectful about him or his followers. There is some truth to their arguments, just as there is with Silver's.
Quote
the tragic cliché of the downwardly mobile lumpen failson has become a mascot of the Yang Gang
Quote
There’s no law that you have to take a serious interest in politics, so it’s no crime to support Andrew Yang’s campaign for president of the United States.
Quote
At first, he was a caricature, parading his identity as an Asian-American math nerd in lieu of a personality.

Is downwardly mobile lumpen failson the next deplorables?
Title: Re: Who should be the Democratic nominee for President in 2020?
Post by: wili on September 24, 2019, 01:40:05 AM
Oh c'mon, sed. Are you really saying that if your kids happened to be the last ones in a room and someone then turned to you and said, "Well, I guess it's just the residue left in that room..." that you'd be completely cool with it?

Residue, in common parlance, is also generally something that must be disposed of and is essentially useless. Referring to humans with this term really is pretty bad. Sorry that you find yourself so tone deaf. I hope that hasn't gotten you into too much trouble in life.
Title: Re: Who should be the Democratic nominee for President in 2020?
Post by: sedziobs on September 24, 2019, 02:06:40 AM
If someone said something like "these kids will go to the playground, the residue will go to the gym" I would think it was a weird way to say it, but I wouldn't be upset. Your use of the word "just" actually seems more offensive than "residue". "It's just the [rest, others, remnants, remainder] left in that room" sounds demeaning. I don't think I've ever heard "residue" used in common parlance referring to humans, so I don't have any learned experience of its connotation in that manner. Anyway, I'm off topic and will fully concede that I am ignorant in this case.
 
Title: Re: Who should be the Democratic nominee for President in 2020?
Post by: Tom_Mazanec on September 24, 2019, 03:18:15 AM
Well, I've never heard of residue being applied to people either, and I've lived all my life in the Great Lakes region.
Title: Re: Who should be the Democratic nominee for President in 2020?
Post by: wili on September 24, 2019, 03:44:15 AM
Thanks for your perspective, Tom.

I do find it interesting that sed can't imagine why anyone would use anything other than the dictionary definition of 'residue,' but finds 'just' to be highly offensive, though none of its dictionary definitions are. Seems kinda...selective...

But I agree that we are now off topic and will drop it henceforth! :)
Title: Re: Who should be the Democratic nominee for President in 2020?
Post by: Neven on September 24, 2019, 01:23:45 PM
There's white liberals, and then there's residue. The good thing about tone deaf people is that they will sometimes say things that a lot of people think, in this case the conservative demographic that votes Democrat and thinks it's 'progressive'.
Title: Re: Who should be the Democratic nominee for President in 2020?
Post by: sedziobs on September 24, 2019, 03:13:36 PM
Requirements for the November debate have been released: 3% in four polls or 5% in two early state polls. This won't shrink the field much. Biden, Warren, Sanders, Harris, and Buttigieg have essentially qualified already. Yang, Booker, Klobuchar, and O'Rourke could be close, but all four would have qualified for October even with the increased requirements.

The early state option might get Gabbard in, since she has been killing it in New Hampshire (5% in three of the last five polls there). Castro and Steyer might be the only candidates left out (the residue ;D).
Title: Re: Who should be the Democratic nominee for President in 2020?
Post by: sedziobs on September 24, 2019, 06:17:19 PM
Tulsi picked up her third qualifying poll yesterday, so she needs one more in the next week to qualify for the October debates.
Tulsi got 2% in the Monmouth poll of New Hampshire released today. She'll be in next month's debate.
Title: Re: Who should be the Democratic nominee for President in 2020?
Post by: TerryM on September 24, 2019, 07:13:54 PM
Tulsi picked up her third qualifying poll yesterday, so she needs one more in the next week to qualify for the October debates.
Tulsi got 2% in the Monmouth poll of New Hampshire released today. She'll be in next month's debate.
Life is good!!
Terry
Title: Re: Who should be the Democratic nominee for President in 2020?
Post by: blumenkraft on September 24, 2019, 07:55:13 PM
 :o
Title: Re: Who should be the Democratic nominee for President in 2020?
Post by: Neven on September 24, 2019, 11:45:54 PM
Krystal Ball argues why the Democratic party is on track to nominate Elizabeth Warren (I think her analysis is very thorough and well thought-out):

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h6cY-CghyKY
Title: Re: Who should be the Democratic nominee for President in 2020?
Post by: TerryM on September 25, 2019, 12:42:55 AM
^^
Thanks Neven!
I was hesitant to view the piece because I'm not a Pocahontas fan. I use the term because her supporters are going to be beat over the head with it should she win the nomination.


I'm not sure whether Trump would favor facing "Pocahontas Warren" or "Creepy Uncle Biden", he's been keeping his powder dry for both, as either would make a very easy target.


Pocahontas just means "she cheated", and it resonates with every voter who feels they were cheated at some point. A vote for Pocahontas is a vote for the cheater who copied my paper, stole my girl, or lied about the used car he sold me.


She can win the candidacy because Democrats won't tar her with her own past. Trump's Republicans won't be playing such politically correct games.


Creepy Uncle Biden, and his infamous son will be just as easy to defeat. If he starts kissing babies it will be a route.


After the Kavanaugh kerfuffle the Republicans will feel justified in getting deep into the mud slinging, and the primaries are doing nothing to prepare the candidates for what's coming.
Terry
Title: Re: Who should be the Democratic nominee for President in 2020?
Post by: wili on September 25, 2019, 01:04:41 AM
Soooo, if we thought that Booker or Harris were likely to be the nominees, should we start constantly repeating the 'n' word here, because, hey, everybody should have to get used to it, since that's what at least some of Trump's followers will be using?

I still thing Bernie is more likely to win, so should I constantly refer to him as Bernie the Crazy Kike, so that we can all get inured to the slurs??
Title: Re: Who should be the Democratic nominee for President in 2020?
Post by: TerryM on September 25, 2019, 01:59:42 AM
Soooo, if we thought that Booker or Harris were likely to be the nominees, should we start constantly repeating the 'n' word here, because, hey, everybody should have to get used to it, since that's what at least some of Trump's followers will be using?

I still thing Bernie is more likely to win, so should I constantly refer to him as Bernie the Crazy Kike, so that we can all get inured to the slurs??
Bernie the Kike and Harris the nword won't be spoken out loud (by many), but Pocahontas will be blaring from every speaker for months. If Warren were of Native American heritage Pocahontas would equate to the nword, or kike, but she isn't, so it doesn't.
Campaigning against its use will further alienate Native Americans, their supporters, and every member of a visible minority will be pissed that a gringo first used minority identification to scam the system & now claims minority inclusion to fight her political battles. Not a good stance to take when the manure strikes the air handler.


It's not something she was born with, it was her own doing & she was foolish enough to bring it front and center through her very public bet with Trump. I think it cost her whatever chance she may have had to become the next president.


Bernie and Tulsi is my favorite ticket in part because I think they may have a chance against Trump. Anyone else has too many negatives.


Trump is going to be hard to beat with this impeachment show in the offing. I can't imagine why Pelosi changed her mind.
Terry
Title: Re: Who should be the Democratic nominee for President in 2020?
Post by: blumenkraft on September 25, 2019, 06:23:28 AM
but Pocahontas will be blaring from every speaker for months

Yes, the most idiotic MAGA hat people will do that. Why you are doing it too is beyond me. Bought a MAGA hat, Terry?
Title: Re: Who should be the Democratic nominee for President in 2020?
Post by: Neven on September 25, 2019, 09:28:01 AM
Yes, the most idiotic MAGA hat people will do that. Why you are doing it too is beyond me. Bought a MAGA hat, Terry?

Terry doesn't say he agrees with calling her that, he's just talking about strategy. It's not hard to predict that Trump would probably very successfully make use of it. If it were the only thing, Warren might have a chance. But the overall problem is the justified perception that Warren will represent the donors more than the American people in general, once in office:
Title: Re: Who should be the Democratic nominee for President in 2020?
Post by: blumenkraft on September 26, 2019, 08:51:05 AM
Quote
I may have no politics to offer but i can dance in a weird way!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1UpBnDKuYNc
Title: Re: Who should be the Democratic nominee for President in 2020?
Post by: Klondike Kat on September 26, 2019, 03:47:12 PM
Soooo, if we thought that Booker or Harris were likely to be the nominees, should we start constantly repeating the 'n' word here, because, hey, everybody should have to get used to it, since that's what at least some of Trump's followers will be using?

I still thing Bernie is more likely to win, so should I constantly refer to him as Bernie the Crazy Kike, so that we can all get inured to the slurs??
Bernie the Kike and Harris the nword won't be spoken out loud (by many), but Pocahontas will be blaring from every speaker for months. If Warren were of Native American heritage Pocahontas would equate to the nword, or kike, but she isn't, so it doesn't.
Campaigning against its use will further alienate Native Americans, their supporters, and every member of a visible minority will be pissed that a gringo first used minority identification to scam the system & now claims minority inclusion to fight her political battles. Not a good stance to take when the manure strikes the air handler.


It's not something she was born with, it was her own doing & she was foolish enough to bring it front and center through her very public bet with Trump. I think it cost her whatever chance she may have had to become the next president.


Bernie and Tulsi is my favorite ticket in part because I think they may have a chance against Trump. Anyone else has too many negatives.


Trump is going to be hard to beat with this impeachment show in the offing. I can't imagine why Pelosi changed her mind.
Terry

That is just part of her bigger image as being part of the elite, when it comes to government programs.  Her college tuition and debt proposals are viewed as another handout to the wealthy elitists. 
Title: Re: Who should be the Democratic nominee for President in 2020?
Post by: blumenkraft on September 26, 2019, 05:20:47 PM
How is educating people handouts to the wealthy elitists? Last time i checked a free college is proportionally worth more for a poor person, ergo you take a tiny package from the rich, but a huge one from the poor.

Also, who says you can't tax the wealthy more to get that money back?
Title: Re: Who should be the Democratic nominee for President in 2020?
Post by: GoSouthYoungins on September 26, 2019, 07:22:23 PM
Also, who says you can't tax the wealthy more to get that money back?

History (and logic). Rich people and their wealth are highly mobile. If the rules change to significantly reduce wealth of some sort, people move their wealth to a different form or different jurisdiction. It is pretty much impossible to stop this.
Title: Re: Who should be the Democratic nominee for President in 2020?
Post by: blumenkraft on September 26, 2019, 07:35:16 PM
Care to back up that bullshit with a source GSY?
Title: Re: Who should be the Democratic nominee for President in 2020?
Post by: wili on September 26, 2019, 09:32:49 PM
Terry wrote: "Bernie the Kike and Harris the nword won't be spoken out loud (by many)..."

The more we coarsen the dialogue, the more likely it is that they will be.

If you want to be part of moving the discourse in that direction, I guess there's nothing I can do to stop you...it just doesn't strike me as a good, or particularly moral, idea.
Title: Re: Who should be the Democratic nominee for President in 2020?
Post by: philopek on September 26, 2019, 11:43:08 PM
Care to back up that bullshit with a source GSY?

Google is your friend.

Those who impertinently ask for sources for the obvious facts of life declare defeat without
being aware.

Of course it's legit to ask for sources of Theories or non-common knowledge but what GSY
stated is quite obvious to anyone not dreaming idealistic dreams.

In combination with attacking aggressive rude language the question for source has to be seen
as what i call "offending question" usually a typical but not exclusively female behavior ;)

In short, no sources needed to back what we can observe on a daily basis on almost every tv channel or tax-related media event as well as parliament's and other political discussions.

May i remind you for example that a German who has his domicile in i.e. Switzerland or even better, Monaco, pays about 4 times less taxes and that legally.

How do you suggest to get their money back into the German (example) treasory if there is no legal handle?

To tax the remaining higher, very naive because then the threshold to leave for even more
wealthy would be reached etc., kind of positive feedback.

However all this is in detail, without the BS word i had never replied because it's in vain.
Interesting to see how often those who claim to be "Gutmenschen" loose their "Kinderstube"
once their identifying illusions are endangered to be rendered  or proven obsolete and not for the first time.

As I know very well and can see proven here and elsewhere each day several times, the close a statement gets to the truth in a manner that one has to re-consider his comfort zone setup, the harsher and more "bombastic" the subconscious mind of many starts to fight the battle for survival (of the illusions)
Title: Re: Who should be the Democratic nominee for President in 2020?
Post by: blumenkraft on September 27, 2019, 08:45:37 AM
Wow, so much text, there must be an argument in there, right? NOPE! Only anecdotal evidence...

OK, Philopek. You couldn't find a source as it seems. That's ok, we are all lazy from time to time.

Answer me this question though: Why are not all wealthy people in some country with lower taxes, say Anguilla, where the tax rate is 0%?
Title: Re: Who should be the Democratic nominee for President in 2020?
Post by: sidd on September 27, 2019, 09:53:28 AM
Wealth is hidden, all right. For example, see:

https://forum.arctic-sea-ice.net/index.php/topic,256.msg195341.html#msg195341

https://forum.arctic-sea-ice.net/index.php/topic,2143.msg211245.html#msg211245

3e13US$ is a good estimate. Probably more by now.

sidd
Title: Re: Who should be the Democratic nominee for President in 2020?
Post by: blumenkraft on September 27, 2019, 10:17:19 AM
Yes, tax evasion is happening because the ruling class does the laws and the tax evasion. It's a political problem.

The question is though, would the wealthy class leave the country once you have strict tax evasion laws and high taxes?

Would Jeff Bezos leave the country if he had to pay taxes? Would he take his business to say,  Anguilla?

Or is this rather a stupid thought because you also need the infrastructure, resources, workforce, and networks available in the US to do such a business?
Title: Re: Who should be the Democratic nominee for President in 2020?
Post by: sidd on September 27, 2019, 09:37:46 PM
Zucman, Piketty et al. have some ideas to address tax evasion. They point out that change can come quicker than we think, as in the change to swiss banking law. They point out that there are very few major players and if the OECD and China pass legislation the offshore havens will capitulate.

We shall see.

sidd
Title: Re: Who should be the Democratic nominee for President in 2020?
Post by: TerryM on September 28, 2019, 02:27:51 AM
Terry wrote: "Bernie the Kike and Harris the nword won't be spoken out loud (by many)..."

The more we coarsen the dialogue, the more likely it is that they will be.

If you want to be part of moving the discourse in that direction, I guess there's nothing I can do to stop you...it just doesn't strike me as a good, or particularly moral, idea.
Wili
Just a gentle reminder that it was not I who brought the "nword" or "kike" into the discussion.


"Pocahontas" is the moniker that Warren will wear for the rest of her public life.


To win the Presidency as a Democrat she'll need to totally re-brand herself. No minority will knowingly vote for a white that scammed the system and was rewarded with a position intended for a minority applicant. The Republicans under Trump aren't likely to let them forget.
Terry
Title: Re: Who should be the Democratic nominee for President in 2020?
Post by: SteveMDFP on September 28, 2019, 02:59:28 AM
To win the Presidency as a Democrat she'll need to totally re-brand herself. No minority will knowingly vote for a white that scammed the system and was rewarded with a position intended for a minority applicant. The Republicans under Trump aren't likely to let them forget.
Terry

Warren was never rewarded for identifying with her Native American ancestors:

Ethnicity not a factor in Elizabeth Warren’s rise in law
https://www.bostonglobe.com/news/nation/2018/09/01/did-claiming-native-american-heritage-actually-help-elizabeth-warren-get-ahead-but-complicated/wUZZcrKKEOUv5Spnb7IO0K/story.html (https://www.bostonglobe.com/news/nation/2018/09/01/did-claiming-native-american-heritage-actually-help-elizabeth-warren-get-ahead-but-complicated/wUZZcrKKEOUv5Spnb7IO0K/story.html)

Nor was it a lie.  She has Native American ancestry.  She shouldn't have declared herself a member of a tribe, because she wasn't raised in that culture.  But having only fractional ancestry isn't the problem.  As I recall, a recent President of the Navajo Nation was only 1l64th by blood.

America has elected a President who boasted of grabbing women's genitals.  To consider a candidate's over-identification with a minority group to be disqualifying is bizarre.
Title: Re: Who should be the Democratic nominee for President in 2020?
Post by: wili on September 28, 2019, 03:52:55 AM
Good point, Steve. Terry, generally quite astute about many things, just seems to be oddly off and oddly obsessed about this one.

Some men do seem to be quite put off kilter by strong, smart women, I guess...
Title: Re: Who should be the Democratic nominee for President in 2020?
Post by: GoSouthYoungins on September 28, 2019, 05:01:15 AM
Who should be?

Gabbard.


Who will be?

You think I'm just an ignorant savage
And you've been so many places; I guess it must be so
But still I cannot see, if the savage one is me
How can there be so much that you don't know?
You don't know...

You think you own whatever land you land on
The earth is just a dead thing you can claim
But I know every rock and tree and creature
Has a life, has a spirit, has a name.

You think the only people who are people
Are the people who look and think like you
But if you walk the footsteps of a stranger
You'll learn things you never knew you never knew

Have you ever heard the wolf cry to the blue corn moon
Or asked the grinning bobcat why he grinned
Can you sing with all the voices of the mountain
Can you paint with all the colors of the wind?
Can you paint with all the colors of the wind?

Come run the hidden pine trails of the forest
Come taste the sun-sweet berries of the earth
Come roll in all the riches all around you
And for once never wonder what they're worth

The rainstorm and the river are my brothers
The heron and the otter are my friends
And we are all connected to each other
In a circle in a hoop that never ends

How high will a sycamore grow?
If you cut it down then you'll never know
And you'll never hear the wolf cry to the blue corn moon
For whether we are white or copper skinned
We need to sing with all the voices of the mountain
We need to paint with all the colors of the wind

You can own the earth and still
All you'll own is earth until
You can paint with all the colors of the wind
Title: Re: Who should be the Democratic nominee for President in 2020?
Post by: TerryM on September 28, 2019, 07:30:11 AM
Good point, Steve. Terry, generally quite astute about many things, just seems to be oddly off and oddly obsessed about this one.

Some men do seem to be quite put off kilter by strong, smart women, I guess...
You've never met the Mrs. obviously. :)
Terry
Title: Re: Who should be the Democratic nominee for President in 2020?
Post by: blumenkraft on September 28, 2019, 08:45:57 AM
Why Warren's technocratic approach will fail

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lkzRURcRbkY
Title: Re: Who should be the Democratic nominee for President in 2020?
Post by: TerryM on September 28, 2019, 08:43:28 PM
wili
I've no opinion on whether Warren would make a good president or not.
I simply believe that others in the race have a much better chance of unseating Trump, and I've explained my reasoning.
Terry

Title: Re: Who should be the Democratic nominee for President in 2020?
Post by: blumenkraft on September 28, 2019, 08:57:32 PM
What If Bernie Sanders had an Anime Opening

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s2Ejib-aYpM&app=desktop
Title: Re: Who should be the Democratic nominee for President in 2020?
Post by: blumenkraft on October 01, 2019, 12:28:06 PM
(CNN)

Quote
Sen. Bernie Sanders raised more than $25 million over the past three months, his campaign said Tuesday morning.

The haul -- up more than $7 million from his second quarter total -- underscored Sanders' continued strength with small dollar donors. The campaign announced last week that it had received contributions from more than a million people.

"Bernie is proud to be the only candidate running to defeat Donald Trump who is 100 percent funded by grassroots donations -- both in the primary and in the general," Sanders campaign manager Faiz Shakir said in a statement celebrating the new figures.

Link >> https://edition.cnn.com/2019/10/01/politics/bernie-sanders-25-million-fundraising-third-quarter-2019/index.html

Title: Re: Who should be the Democratic nominee for President in 2020?
Post by: Neven on October 01, 2019, 07:53:15 PM
At some point, Sanders is going to have to become more combative and direct.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2KrnwjTAoLA
Title: Re: Who should be the Democratic nominee for President in 2020?
Post by: blumenkraft on October 01, 2019, 08:12:32 PM
100%!
Title: Re: Who should be the Democratic nominee for President in 2020?
Post by: blumenkraft on October 02, 2019, 10:57:06 AM
Bernie Sanders raises more money than any 2020 candidate so far

Quote
"Media elites and professional pundits have tried repeatedly to dismiss this campaign, and yet working-class Americans keep saying loudly and clearly that they want a political revolution," Shakir said.

Link >> https://www.salon.com/2019/10/01/bernie-sanders-has-raised-more-money-than-any-2020-candidate-so-far/
Title: Re: Who should be the Democratic nominee for President in 2020?
Post by: wili on October 02, 2019, 03:55:02 PM
Yup, he raised $25 m in the last quarter, and none from Wall Street.

But the headline is technically wrong, since Trump is also a candidate, and he raised $125 m in the last quarter.

People on both sides want to buy this office, but Trump is the one with the most backers who have the deepest pockets.

https://www.huffpost.com/entry/trump-rnc-fundraising-third-quarter-2019_n_5d94452fe4b0ac3cddb0c8ff
Title: Re: Who should be the Democratic nominee for President in 2020?
Post by: blumenkraft on October 02, 2019, 04:13:31 PM
Logically, is the president a candidate in the first place?  :P

Is that 125m figure real? Saw it on Breitbart and thought it's fake news.
Title: Re: Who should be the Democratic nominee for President in 2020?
Post by: vox_mundi on October 02, 2019, 05:47:40 PM
and then there were two ...

Bernie Sanders Hospitalized for Heart Procedure, Cancels Campaign Events
https://www.nytimes.com/2019/10/02/us/politics/bernie-sanders-health.html

Sanders has Heart Stent Surgery after Chest Discomfort
https://www.politico.com/news/2019/10/02/sanders-has-heart-stent-surgery-after-chest-discomfort-000164
Title: Re: Who should be the Democratic nominee for President in 2020?
Post by: blumenkraft on October 02, 2019, 06:34:16 PM
Get well Bernie! <3
Title: Re: Who should be the Democratic nominee for President in 2020?
Post by: oren on October 02, 2019, 09:57:30 PM
I hope he recovers soon and continues campaigning.
Title: Re: Who should be the Democratic nominee for President in 2020?
Post by: bbr2314 on October 03, 2019, 09:52:11 PM
Pocahontas is the worst. I would vote for Trump if the Democrats pick Pocahontas. I would not vote in the election otherwise, but if they nominate her, I will be a likely Trump voter -- and I can imagine many more independents also shifting to Trump if the D candidate is a lying socialist thief.
Title: Re: Who should be the Democratic nominee for President in 2020?
Post by: sedziobs on October 03, 2019, 11:32:43 PM
All 12 candidates will be on the same stage in a single October debate (which Bernie expects to participate in). I was hoping for a 6/6 split. 12 (or even 10) at once makes for a chaotic scene.
Title: Re: Who should be the Democratic nominee for President in 2020?
Post by: Neven on October 04, 2019, 12:01:27 PM
I wish it weren't so, but Sanders really is America's best hope for positive change. If he isn't elected president, the country will go nowhere (except probably further downhill).
Title: Re: Who should be the Democratic nominee for President in 2020?
Post by: Tom_Mazanec on October 04, 2019, 03:46:31 PM
I wish it weren't so, but Sanders really is America's best hope for positive change. If he isn't elected president, the country will go nowhere (except probably further downhill).
If he doesn’t get the nomination do you think he could run as an Independent?
Title: Re: Who should be the Democratic nominee for President in 2020?
Post by: blumenkraft on October 05, 2019, 08:20:57 AM
Jamie Peck on Sanders vs. Warren:

Quote
Think about their ability to deal with these constraints. They are not the same. They don't have the same strategy, they don't have the same approach.

Warren's approach is one of technocracy.

Bernie's approach is to build a movement that lasts past the elections which is something he understands better than everyone else running by far. Even Obama didn't understand that.

Read Meagan Day[1] - on the kind of labor movement and the kind of grassroots power that would be necessary for Bernie to pass anything he is trying to do just doesn't exist with anyone else.

[1] Meagan Day at Jacobin >> https://www.jacobinmag.com/author/meagan-day


Title: Re: Who should be the Democratic nominee for President in 2020?
Post by: blumenkraft on October 05, 2019, 08:31:12 AM
... from this video btw. Well worth a watch/listen.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mEEySW__d2A
Title: Re: Who should be the Democratic nominee for President in 2020?
Post by: blumenkraft on October 05, 2019, 09:04:42 AM
To put a slightly different angle on Jamie's argument here:

In the same way the far-right feels entitled to be openly racist under agent orange, with Sanders as president majorities, the workers, the poor would feel entitled to openly question the system and demand change, put pressure on house and senate. He has already proven to be able to change the Overton window in such a way in this presidential race.

Sounds scary only to non-democrats.
Title: Re: Who should be the Democratic nominee for President in 2020?
Post by: gandul on October 05, 2019, 03:09:19 PM
Pocahontas is the worst. I would vote for Trump if the Democrats pick Pocahontas. I would not vote in the election otherwise, but if they nominate her, I will be a likely Trump voter -- and I can imagine many more independents also shifting to Trump if the D candidate is a lying socialist thief.
Ugly but it’s true. So many Americans willing to vote a proven “liar billionaire thief” (well the billionaire not entirely proven) before an, allegedly, “liar socialist thief”.

Neven, I don’t think even Sanders could cure the US. It seems pretty much dead and we just have to watch the corpse to slowly rot.
Title: Re: Who should be the Democratic nominee for President in 2020?
Post by: blumenkraft on October 05, 2019, 03:17:48 PM
No, only the American people can 'cure' America.

With a large grassroots movement and the right leader, there is a chance. The door is wide open. Go fucking through it.
Title: Re: Who should be the Democratic nominee for President in 2020?
Post by: gandul on October 05, 2019, 03:29:56 PM
No, only the American people can 'cure' America.

With a large grassroots movement and the right leader, there is a chance. The door is wide open. Go fucking through it.

Yes. I hope so, but the US needs to go away from their centenary beliefs, so convenient for the political and economical elites. From their stupid guns, their stupid “not with my money”, etc, etc. etc. And you see comments above that, they elect a ridiculous clown as president, and they would do it again if he appeals at their idiotic centenary values.

And with the sinking of America, we may all feel some pain, but perhaps it’s the necessary crisis,
Title: Re: Who should be the Democratic nominee for President in 2020?
Post by: sidd on October 06, 2019, 12:08:58 AM
Bernie ad highlighting the enduring opposition from the Democratic establishment to his candidacy:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=2&v=3ZhkKATtqtU

sidd
Title: Re: Who should be the Democratic nominee for President in 2020?
Post by: Klondike Kat on October 06, 2019, 02:42:10 AM
Pocahontas is the worst. I would vote for Trump if the Democrats pick Pocahontas. I would not vote in the election otherwise, but if they nominate her, I will be a likely Trump voter -- and I can imagine many more independents also shifting to Trump if the D candidate is a lying socialist thief.
Ugly but it’s true. So many Americans willing to vote a proven “liar billionaire thief” (well the billionaire not entirely proven) before an, allegedly, “liar socialist thief”.

Yes, just look back to the 2016 election.
Title: Re: Who should be the Democratic nominee for President in 2020?
Post by: blumenkraft on October 06, 2019, 06:34:58 PM
The Movement Bernie Started Is Bigger Than Any One Person. Have Faith in That Movement, Not Just the Man
The reason people support Bernie Sanders is not because of the man; it is because of the ideals that he represents


Link >> https://www.commondreams.org/views/2019/10/06/movement-bernie-started-bigger-any-one-person-have-faith-movement-not-just-man
Title: Re: Who should be the Democratic nominee for President in 2020?
Post by: blumenkraft on October 08, 2019, 09:17:31 PM
That one must hurt KK.  ;D
Title: Re: Who should be the Democratic nominee for President in 2020?
Post by: blumenkraft on October 08, 2019, 09:21:27 PM
Young folks favor Bernie, the old farts who did it wrong all their lives favor Warren.

Time to listen to the generation who has to deal with your shit boomers!
Title: Re: Who should be the Democratic nominee for President in 2020?
Post by: sedziobs on October 08, 2019, 11:44:55 PM
That's quite a difference from the Fox News Wisconsin poll released this weekend, which had Biden 28, Warren 22, Sanders 17. The Change Research poll is done with targeted online ads. Curiously it has disappeared from their website as of now.

In South Carolina, Fox News has Biden 41, Warren 12, Sanders 10. A Change Research poll from August revealed it's the very large contingent of black voters that give Biden such a big lead with a 45-15 advantage over Sanders. I may be tone deaf, but I can recognize that Sanders' demographic appeal is limited at this point. Age 65+, college educated, and blacks are a huge part of the Democratic electorate. Sanders won't win without them.

Eight candidates have already qualified for the November debate, with Booker, Steyer, and Yang all getting their fourth poll in the last few days.
Title: Re: Who should be the Democratic nominee for President in 2020?
Post by: sidd on October 09, 2019, 12:13:16 AM
Day at Jacobin on Sanders call for end to corporate funding of DNC:

 “As the Democratic nominee, Bernie will ban corporate contributions to the Democratic Party Convention and all related committees.”

"The DNC, for its part, is adamant that it will not return the money it has raised from lobbyists and corporate PACs, nor break its promises of exclusive access and credentials in exchange for cash."

https://jacobinmag.com/2019/10/bernie-sanders-democratic-national-committee-corporate-donors

This will set the cat among the pigeons. He's threatening to cut off DNC oxygen. Wouldnt surprise me if DNC rams thru Biden with the superdelegates in the second round after first round between Sanders, Warren and Biden is inconclusive.

And then DNC will lose again with Biden.

sidd
Title: Re: Who should be the Democratic nominee for President in 2020?
Post by: sidd on October 09, 2019, 12:56:46 AM
dailykos puts the knife into Gabbard:

https://caucus99percent.com/content/establishment-dems-and-dkos-looking-take-down-tulsi-again

sidd
Title: Re: Who should be the Democratic nominee for President in 2020?
Post by: Klondike Kat on October 09, 2019, 03:57:06 PM
That's quite a difference from the Fox News Wisconsin poll released this weekend, which had Biden 28, Warren 22, Sanders 17. The Change Research poll is done with targeted online ads. Curiously it has disappeared from their website as of now.

In South Carolina, Fox News has Biden 41, Warren 12, Sanders 10. A Change Research poll from August revealed it's the very large contingent of black voters that give Biden such a big lead with a 45-15 advantage over Sanders. I may be tone deaf, but I can recognize that Sanders' demographic appeal is limited at this point. Age 65+, college educated, and blacks are a huge part of the Democratic electorate. Sanders won't win without them.

Eight candidates have already qualified for the November debate, with Booker, Steyer, and Yang all getting their fourth poll in the last few days.

According to 538, that last two quality polls in Wisconsin had Biden had 28%, with Warren at 17 and 22% and Sanders at 17 and 20%.  Both those polls have a much higher rating on 538 than change research polls.

Title: Re: Who should be the Democratic nominee for President in 2020?
Post by: blumenkraft on October 09, 2019, 04:55:04 PM
That's quite a difference from the Fox News Wisconsin poll released this weekend,

Yes, this one is an outlier indeed. But it is also a glimpse into the future. ;)
Title: Re: Who should be the Democratic nominee for President in 2020?
Post by: sedziobs on October 09, 2019, 07:41:03 PM
I wonder if "quality polls" will become less relevant. Monmouth polls (which 538 rates A+) are done exclusively by phone, with the majority being landline. That will obviously under-represent younger demographics, who generally do not answer unknown callers on their cellphones. I don't know anyone under 40 with a landline.

In Monmouth's most recent New Hampshire poll, only 29% of respondents were under 50, and only 12% were under 35. Those percentages may have roughly correlated with actual voter turnout in past elections, but the under 50 vote was the majority in the 2018 midterms. The truth is probably somewhere between the "quality" approved DNC list and online polling like Change Research. If so, it's a shame that the DNC process is discounting younger generations in its rather un-democratic selection process.

(https://www.pewresearch.org/wp-content/uploads/2019/05/FT_19.05.23_GenerationsVoting_YoungergenerationsoutvotedBoomerpriorgenerations2018.png?resize=310,520)
Title: Re: Who should be the Democratic nominee for President in 2020?
Post by: blumenkraft on October 09, 2019, 08:13:21 PM
Wow, this chart gives me hope. Thanks, for sharing, Sedziobs.
Title: Re: Who should be the Democratic nominee for President in 2020?
Post by: sidd on October 10, 2019, 10:53:47 PM
Gabbard considering boycott of ohio debate: the fix is in

" the DNC and corporate media are rigging the election again"

"They are attempting to replace the roles of voters in the early states, using polling and other arbitrary methods which are not transparent or democratic, and holding so-called debates which are not debates at all but rather commercialized reality television meant to entertain, not inform or enlighten."

https://www.tulsi2020.com/election-process

sidd
Title: Re: Who should be the Democratic nominee for President in 2020?
Post by: sidd on October 11, 2019, 06:34:55 AM
Robert Reich: a presidential candidate has to be inspiring

"Big ideas are essential in order to be electable."

"today the real contest is between the people and the powerful – the vast majority of Americans versus an oligarchy"

"The way it was before Trump brought us Trump"

"looking forward to what America should be rather than backward to an America that was never as good as it could be."

https://robertreich.org/post/188216802405

sidd
Title: Re: Who should be the Democratic nominee for President in 2020?
Post by: sidd on October 16, 2019, 01:34:38 AM
Holy shit: Bernie doubles down

"corporations with at least $100 million in annual revenue, corporations with at least $100 million in balance sheet total, and all publicly traded companies will be required to provide at least 2 percent of stock to their workers every year until the company is at least 20 percent owned by employees."

"45 percent of the board of directors in any large corporation with at least $100 million in annual revenue, corporations with at least $100 million in balance sheet total, and all publicly traded companies will be directly elected by the firm’s workers"

"U.S. corporations with more than $100 million in annual revenue, corporations with at least $100 million in balance sheet total, and all publicly traded companies must obtain a federal charter from a newly established Bureau of Corporate Governance at the Department of Commerce. This new federal charter will require corporate boards to consider the interests of all of the stakeholders in a company – including workers, customers, shareholders, and the communities in which the corporation operates."

"large-scale stock buybacks will be treated like stock manipulation, just as they were before 1982"

"the owners of firms that dispose of American labor to take advantage of robots or cheap labor overseas will be required to share the gains that they make through such practices with those whom these practices harm. "

"Under this plan, a $500 million U.S. Employee Ownership Bank will be created to provide low-interest loans, loan guarantees, and technical assistance to workers who want to purchase their own businesses"

"workers will be given the right to buy a company when it goes up for sale, is closing, or if a factory is moving overseas "

"Ban asset managers voting on other people’s money, unless they are following instructions"

"Guarantee the right of every saver to elect representatives who set voting policy in corporations, in multi-employer pensions, single-employer pensions, in 401(k) funds, and every other form."

"Have the FTC conduct a thorough review of all mergers and acquisitions since Trump took office and undo those that have created highly concentrated markets, demonstrably caused harm to workers, raised prices, or reduced competition."

" the FTC will break up corporations that have accumulated dominant market share and are able to wield their market power in anti-competitive ways."

"Ban mandatory arbitration clauses.
Ban non-compete clauses.
Ban unilateral modification clauses.
Ban clauses that deny farmers and consumers the right to repair the equipment and technology they purchase."

"Bernie will raise up to $3 trillion over 10 years by repealing all of the disastrous corporate tax breaks enacted under Trump, closing corporate tax loopholes, and demanding that large corporations pay their fair share of taxes."

"corporate tax rate to 35 percent "

" same tax rate on offshore and domestic income and applying a per-country limit on the foreign tax credit."

"If this plan had been in effect last year, instead of paying nothing in federal income taxes:

    Amazon would have paid up to $3.8 billion in taxes.
    Delta would have paid up to $1.8 billion in taxes.
    Chevron would have paid up to $1.6 billion in taxes.
    GM would have paid up to $1.5 billion in taxes."


https://berniesanders.com/issues/corporate-accountability-and-democracy/

Just in time for the debate. Now they really gonna go after him

sidd
Title: Re: Who should be the Democratic nominee for President in 2020?
Post by: Neven on October 16, 2019, 09:24:59 AM
Quote
Just in time for the debate. Now they really gonna go after him

Maybe the heart attack will encourage him take the gloves off and denounce the corruption in the Democratic Party (it helped Trump massively to win the GOP primary last time). Because if it comes to a second round, they will cheat him out of the candidacy again. And the herd will follow regardless.
Title: Re: Who should be the Democratic nominee for President in 2020?
Post by: Klondike Kat on October 16, 2019, 03:46:48 PM
What is the employees do want to keep the company stock?  Will they be forced to?  Sounds like more bureaucracy to me.
Title: Re: Who should be the Democratic nominee for President in 2020?
Post by: Pmt111500 on October 16, 2019, 04:33:05 PM
Oh, Bernie's gone hard to the left. In speeches. Ok. That sort of talk would even here be considered pretty extreme left. So
* AOC - Social Democrat in Europe https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Centre-left_politics
* Bernie a hard line Socialist
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Left-wing_politics and not very far from a
* real Commie.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Far-left_politics

Yes, there are differences between them.

Anyway nice to get some info outside the media corp.

Quote
Just in time for the debate. Now they really gonna go after him

Maybe the heart attack will encourage him take the gloves off and denounce the corruption in the Democratic Party (it helped Trump massively to win the GOP primary last time).


Democrats are indeed (Mostly) an odd amalgamation of soft right-wingers and very soft left-centrists leading to mixed messaging. At least it looks like that from this perspective. (leftie or greenish Finland)
Title: Re: Who should be the Democratic nominee for President in 2020?
Post by: blumenkraft on October 16, 2019, 06:52:54 PM
How idiotic and wasteful can it possibly get? Well, this sure looks like late-stage capitalism.

Only one of many reasons why there shouldn't be billionaires in the first place...