Arctic Sea Ice : Forum

Off-topic => The rest => Topic started by: budmantis on November 16, 2017, 06:37:10 AM

Title: Who should be the Democratic nominee for President in 2020?
Post by: budmantis on November 16, 2017, 06:37:10 AM
This article about Joe Biden made me wonder whether it was time to open a thread about who would be the best candidate to earn the Democratic Presidential nomination in 2020. It may be a year, possibly more before anyone declares their candidacy, but I have been wondering for some time who would be best.

https://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/joe-biden-2020-harvey-weinstein_us_5a0a0ba8e4b00a6eece3a13e?ncid=inblnkushpmg00000009

Who should be the Democrat's nominee for President? Biden is considering a third attempt, Is Hillary Clinton? How about Eliz. Warren or Bernie Sanders? Who do you think would be the best choice for 2020?
Title: Re: Who should be the Democratic nominee for President in 2020?
Post by: sidd on November 16, 2017, 06:39:23 AM
Would like to add Sherrod Brown to the list.

Also, in case you didnt know, adding the icon for twitter or G+ (or facebook) triggers a whole lot of tracking. Please don't make me use blockers on this site also.

sidd
Title: Re: Who should be the Democratic nominee for President in 2020?
Post by: budmantis on November 16, 2017, 12:40:46 PM
Would like to add Sherrod Brown to the list.

Also, in case you didnt know, adding the icon for twitter or G+ (or facebook) triggers a whole lot of tracking. Please don't make me use blockers on this site also.

sidd

Didn't knowingly insert that, very annoying! How do I get rid of it?

BudM
Title: Re: Who should be the Democratic nominee for President in 2020?
Post by: pileus on November 16, 2017, 02:31:54 PM
Would like to see a credible and strong female candidate emerge.  America needs to have a female serve as POTUS, it's way overdue.  The appetite was proven with the 2016 vote tallies, with decisive results in both the Dem primary and general election.  Senator Warren is usually the first name mentioned, but I'm a bit skeptical she would have national appeal and be able to shake the attacks that Trump and the right wing have been directing towards her.  Senator Gillibrand is another high profile possibility.  Former Acting AG Yates has gotten some buzz, but it's unclear if she has national ambition.

Senator Merkely from Oregon is worth a look, and it's likely a few Californians will jockey for consideration, perhaps Gavin Newsome, maybe Rep Schiff.  VA Gov McAuliffe is know to have interest, and has been popular in the state.
Title: Re: Who should be the Democratic nominee for President in 2020?
Post by: Neven on November 16, 2017, 04:02:07 PM
Didn't knowingly insert that, very annoying! How do I get rid of it?

BudM

It's inserted in every opening post. I'll see if I can get rid of it as admin.

@ pileus

How about Kamala Harris? She's a woman AND she's black (don't know if she's lesbian and/or transgender). She doesn't have much of a track record - like Obama - so she can say just about anything, and she's sure not too swing too far left. After all, she made sure Steve Mnuchin wouldn't be prosecuted.

Warren is great, but she does tend to docilely toe the party line when she veers off too much from the center (which is right-wing everywhere else in the world).
Title: Re: Who should be the Democratic nominee for President in 2020?
Post by: TerryM on November 16, 2017, 05:02:05 PM
How about Tulsi Gabbard?
Whoever the Dems run, if running against Trump, should win. We should have a wide enough opening to fit a progressive through.
If Trump is impeached, or not nominated by the Reps, all bets are off.

Terry
Title: Re: Who should be the Democratic nominee for President in 2020?
Post by: Neven on November 16, 2017, 06:01:16 PM
How about Tulsi Gabbard?

I think she's a bit too stiff. For the presidency that is.

I think Nina Turner is great as a personality/speaker/inspirer (woman AND black), but I'm not sure she has the skills and experience for such a job.

Whoever it is, it is crucial that this person isn't completely tied to corporate interests, in the sense that they're effectively a puppet.
Title: Re: Who should be the Democratic nominee for President in 2020?
Post by: Rob Dekker on November 17, 2017, 06:20:52 AM
I still think Bernie should run again.

(https://img0.etsystatic.com/169/1/13867578/il_340x270.1079820056_t84t.jpg)
Title: Re: Who should be the Democratic nominee for President in 2020?
Post by: budmantis on November 17, 2017, 06:41:02 AM
I agree Rob, even at his advanced age!

BudM
Title: Re: Who should be the Democratic nominee for President in 2020?
Post by: pileus on November 17, 2017, 03:44:56 PM
I still think Bernie should run again.

(https://img0.etsystatic.com/169/1/13867578/il_340x270.1079820056_t84t.jpg)

Fully expected the thread to end up here, along with various and sundry snark from Northern Europeans that are out of touch with the American political landscape.

By all indications Bernie seems to be preparing to run, but Dems should again be cautious in entertaining the notion of a non-Democrat competing for the party nomination.  In addition to losing to HRC by 3.7 million votes, Bernie was unable to capture the votes of actual Democrats.  This could be a primary reason the Bro crowd is pushing to rig the process with more voter suppressing caucuses instead of democratic primaries.

Bernie also fails to appeal to the poor and working class, and lost to HRC at all income levels.

Bernie's only source of strength was the under 30 crowd, which includes a lot of the Bros.  This demographic is becoming a larger share of the electorate (although as the Bros age they may not be able to maintain their man-buns, so they will need to come up with a different look when they show up at the caucus to shout everyone down), so for Bernie to have any chance as the Dem nominee as a non-Dem, he would need to find a way to build and expand his appeal beyond one demographic.

I remain skeptical the he would prevail, but if so I  fear he would alienate a large portion of the core Dem constituency, handing the presidency to Republicans.  I have voted straight Dem since 1988, but I would never cast a vote for Bernie Sanders.

Title: Re: Who should be the Democratic nominee for President in 2020?
Post by: Rob Dekker on November 18, 2017, 06:17:54 AM
I have voted straight Dem since 1988, but I would never cast a vote for Bernie Sanders.

Why not ?
Title: Re: Who should be the Democratic nominee for President in 2020?
Post by: Sigmetnow on November 18, 2017, 02:43:29 PM
Some interesting and entertaining picks (and opinions) from the folks at FiveThirtyEight:

Our Way-Too-Early 2020 Democratic Primary Draft
Bookmark this to see how idiotic we look in four years.
https://fivethirtyeight.com/features/our-way-too-early-2020-democratic-primary-draft/
Title: Re: Who should be the Democratic nominee for President in 2020?
Post by: Rob Dekker on November 19, 2017, 09:08:37 AM
As late as 7:00pm on election night, FiveThirtyEight, a trusted prognosticator of the election, gave Clinton a 71 percent chance of winning the presidency.
Title: Re: Who should be the Democratic nominee for President in 2020?
Post by: Sigmetnow on November 21, 2017, 02:29:19 PM
As late as 7:00pm on election night, FiveThirtyEight, a trusted prognosticator of the election, gave Clinton a 71 percent chance of winning the presidency.

And they've done sooooo many articles since then to try to explain why. ;D
Title: Re: Who should be the Democratic nominee for President in 2020?
Post by: sidd on November 25, 2017, 12:19:44 AM
Parnes at thehill has a list:

Deval Patrick was a new one to me, dunno much about him.

http://thehill.com/homenews/campaign/361607-how-dem-insiders-rank-the-2020-contenders

sidd


Title: Re: Who should be the Democratic nominee for President in 2020?
Post by: pileus on December 02, 2017, 02:29:58 PM
I have voted straight Dem since 1988, but I would never cast a vote for Bernie Sanders.

Why not ?

I vote Democratic, he’s not a Democrat.  He was a destructive force in 2016 election, and he helped undermine Hillary Clinton and hand the presidency to Trump.  Many of his ideas are fantastical and vaporware, in other words not based in reality.  He doesn’t have the temperament to be potus.  He alienates core Dem constituencies.  Underlying all of that, he’s simply too advanced in age for the 2020 cycle.
Title: Re: Who should be the Democratic nominee for President in 2020?
Post by: pileus on December 02, 2017, 02:45:20 PM
I have a strong preference for a female candidate, I just don’t know if Warren can generate enthusiasm at a national level and overcome the ready made platform of attacks by the Trump/GOP crowd (lefty liberal from Mass, professorial, the disgusting “Pocahontas” label).  At 71 tho she would be a young contrast to some of the near octogenarians in consideration.

Any female candidate will need to deal with similar headwinds Hillary faced.  There is plenty of misogynist energy among the Leftist Bro crew that would be unleashed if their sainted candidate is unable to overcome the rigged process again.
Title: Re: Who should be the Democratic nominee for President in 2020?
Post by: pileus on December 10, 2017, 04:01:28 PM
This is an instructive 10 part tweet thread on the fraud that is Bernie Sanders.  Democrats would be wise to not fall for his nonsense.

https://mobile.twitter.com/i/status/939867982158876673

Since Sanders diehards are determined to hijack the @DNC and torpedo other 2020 contenders, and since he refuses to become a Democrat but wants to hog their spotlight and attack them, let's take a closer look at who this man is. (1/10)
Title: Re: Who should be the Democratic nominee for President in 2020?
Post by: jai mitchell on December 10, 2017, 04:42:42 PM
Peter Daou is a propagandist and none of his assertions are legitimate, none.

For example, the 1994 crime bill won his support because of the Assault Weapons Ban and the Violence Against Women provisions.  Compare that with Daou's later assertions that Bernie was in the pocket of the NRA.

https://berniesanders.com/press-release/sanders-voted-for-1994-crime-bill-to-support-assault-weapons-ban-violence-against-women-provisions/

It is pathetic that this clown asserts himself to be a 'progressive' when he is clearly a neoliberal establishment hack.
Title: Re: Who should be the Democratic nominee for President in 2020?
Post by: idunno on December 10, 2017, 04:50:34 PM
Since it's now been 2 days since anybody on the "Arctic Sea Ice Forum" had anything to say about "Arctic Sea Ice", I hope I can be forgiven for pointing out that I don't give a flying fuck about who is the democratic candidate in 2020?

For every 100 posts about US domestic politics here, surely the rest of the world is allowed one, occasionally, just to express regret that this forum, which was once an interesting source of information on an issue of international interest, in the present moment, and in the future, including 3 years hence - Arctic Sea Ice - is no longer covered here.

As for whether US domestic politics is covered well here.. Well, I personally prefer to rely on sites which have staffs with 600+ years of combined experience inside the beltway, multiple PhDs, lavish entertaiment budgets, and daily, hourly contacts with the major players.

Carry on, the rest of you, relying on Buddy's regular updates on why he cannot retune a television.

Meanwhile... IJIS. Severnaya I... (I forgot),j Chukchi, methane hydrate, wind off the ice thingy, has a name..., Does anybody reading this know whether ASI area today is low or high?

One day, a professional US political operator from, say, CAP, could visit this site. Is it useful to them to have to wade through 99 uninformed US political posts to reach the one actual factual scientific update

At present, AFAICT. this site has not reported any science WRT the Arctic Sea Ice for 48hours
Title: Re: Who should be the Democratic nominee for President in 2020?
Post by: budmantis on December 10, 2017, 05:08:33 PM
IDUNNO: I'm sure Neven will have something to add with regards to your post. Just so you're aware, I did ask Neven if political discussion had a place here in the Forum and he thought it did. Most or possibly even all of this discussion wouldn't be taking place here if it were not for Trump being the US president.

I don't think its fair for you to single out Buddy the way you have. If you don't like what he has to say, you can choose to ignore him.

BudM
Title: Re: Who should be the Democratic nominee for President in 2020?
Post by: Pmt111500 on December 10, 2017, 05:11:21 PM
Since it's now been 2 days since anybody on the "Arctic Sea Ice Forum" had anything to say about "Arctic Sea Ice", I hope I can be forgiven for pointing out that I don't give a flying fuck about who is the democratic candidate in 2020?

For every 100 posts about US domestic politics here, surely the rest of the world is allowed one, occasionally, just to express regret that this forum, which was once an interesting source of information on an issue of international interest, in the present moment, and in the future, including 3 years hence - Arctic Sea Ice - is no longer covered here.

As for whether US domestic politics is covered well here.. Well, I personally prefer to rely on sites which have staffs with 600+ years of combined experience inside the beltway, multiple PhDs, lavish entertaiment budgets, and daily, hourly contacts with the major players.

Carry on, the rest of you, relying on Buddy's regular updates on why he cannot retune a television.

Meanwhile... IJIS. Severnaya I... (I forgot),j Chukchi, methane hydrate, wind off the ice thingy, has a name..., Does anybody reading this know whether ASI area today is low or high?

One day, a professional US political operator from, say, CAP, could visit this site. Is it useful to them to have to wade through 99 uninformed US political posts to reach the one actual factual scientific update

At present, AFAICT. this site has not reported any science WRT the Arctic Sea Ice for 48hours

:-) , it's been fun to follow how the signal-to-noise ratio here has been developing. No wonder actual scientists have somewhat abandoned us. Soon someone starts claiming this is a political site, which it was not for quite a while.

https://www.wired.com/story/two-melting-glaciers-could-decide-the-fate-of-our-coastlines/

But let it go to record, my opinion of the next candidate in 2018 elections for the democratic prez of Trumpistan is... Oh, I don't give a flying fuck either.
Title: Re: Who should be the Democratic nominee for President in 2020?
Post by: wili on December 10, 2017, 08:34:57 PM
"One day, a professional US political operator from, say, CAP, could visit this site. Is it useful to them to have to wade through 99 uninformed US political posts to reach the one actual factual scientific update"

I'm sure they would be able to figure out how to find the relevant threads and just look at those, without having to 'wade through' anything irrelevant to that topic. Are you having trouble doing the same? 
Title: Re: Who should be the Democratic nominee for President in 2020?
Post by: Neven on December 10, 2017, 10:31:56 PM
All of these discussions take place in the Off-Topic category and The Rest sub-category. Besides, it's hibernation time, an there simply isn't all that much to say about Arctic sea ice that can't be said in the monthly PIOMAS updates on the ASIB.

That said, I also regret that the political discussions have taken this turn and that most people can't think beyond mainstream/establishment narratives. I'm sorry for partaking in them, but I too have frustrations I need to vent, and US politics is one of the subjects that have my interest (less so during the melting season, I promise ;) ).
Title: Re: Who should be the Democratic nominee for President in 2020?
Post by: Pmt111500 on December 11, 2017, 06:25:19 AM
All of these discussions take place in the Off-Topic category and The Rest sub-category. Besides, it's hibernation time, an there simply isn't all that much to say about Arctic sea ice that can't be said in the monthly PIOMAS updates on the ASIB.


Well, imho it's kind of on topic in 'Policy and Solutions' and 'Walking the Walk'-sections, but it¨'s too bad Trumpistan has decided to rather destroy the coasts than enter the discussions about possibly saving those. I find it destructive and highly depressing. Just lately I noticed I've not read a scientific article for half a year since I've been politically busy dissing everything 'american' (by the meaning some talk of the USA). I still do not understand why a narcisissitic liar should be allowed nuclear codes. :-[ :( :'(.
Title: Re: Who should be the Democratic nominee for President in 2020?
Post by: Paddy on December 11, 2017, 09:20:26 AM
This article may be of relevance here: https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/the-fix/wp/2017/09/08/the-top-15-possible-2020-democratic-nominees-ranked/

I'm a bit concerned regarding the age of some of the potential candidates. Jerry Brown, Bernie Sanders, and Joe Biden in particular.  The campaign trail is hard work, and the job itself still more so; it doesn't seem suitable for octogenarians. Plus all the made up stuff about Hillary's health in the last election could be only too easily recycled.

That said, I don't really know enough about most of the other candidates out there to really push for an alternative.
Title: Re: Who should be the Democratic nominee for President in 2020?
Post by: oren on December 11, 2017, 10:33:01 AM
I too dislike the political turn the forum has taken. Putting it OT is not enough. In the unread posts list which I use regularly, I need to wade through all the OT threads to get to the real stuff. And people here start hating each other over political issues, and bring it into the other threads, as it's one forum with one set of usernames. And worse of all, the posts in these threads are repetitive. I doubt anyone has changed his mind based on all these varying points of view. I keep seeing the same people always posting the same opinions. Totally useless.
Title: Re: Who should be the Democratic nominee for President in 2020?
Post by: wili on December 11, 2017, 02:27:14 PM
Paddy, can you quote relevant bits from the article. Some of us can't get WaPo without paying.

Oren, I hadn't noticed that phenomenon. I feel I can separate out political from scientific observations, usually.
Title: Re: Who should be the Democratic nominee for President in 2020?
Post by: Paddy on December 11, 2017, 02:36:28 PM
@Wili, the WP's top 10 were as follows (options 11 to 15 can likely be ignored):

10. Sen. Sherrod Brown (Ohio)

9. New York Gov. Andrew M. Cuomo

8. Sen. Cory Booker (N.J.)

7. Sen. Kamala D. Harris (Calif.)

6. Sen. Kirsten Gillibrand (N.Y.)

5. California Gov. Jerry Brown

4. Sen. Elizabeth Warren (Mass.)

3. Sen. Chris Murphy (Conn.)

2. Former vice president Joe Biden

1. Sen. Bernie Sanders (Vt.)

@Oren,

Fair point, and I hold myself partly responsible since I wrote the poll that turned into a monster thread on the Trump presidency. I generally stay off these threads most of the time myself.
Title: Re: Who should be the Democratic nominee for President in 2020?
Post by: colchonero on December 11, 2017, 02:40:52 PM
" And worse of all, the posts in these threads are repetitive. I doubt anyone has changed his mind based on all these varying points of view. I keep seeing the same people always posting the same opinions. Totally useless."


Exactly.Because there almost aren't any different points of view. There was a poll "who are you going to vote for in 2016 election" and it was like 30-1 for HRC. I think, I am the only conservative on the forum, (not huge Trump fan to be fair) I'm very interested in politics, but I never write anything, cause I know,  I'll get many replies(not to be misunderstood, I don't mean it because someone will not let me write or attack me on that, no, it's just some people would disagree with my comments, because they have different POV and I don't want to get into discussion.

In fact I'm not a real conservative or liberal, it's just that I'm open minded in the way I like to hear different views than decide what do I find it makes more sense. For example I believe climate change is real, I am pro choice, but I really don't like socialism, people being offended by anything (this happens especially in the media and on internet, cause in the real life it hasn't gone exactly that far). Political correctness has gone to far for me personally. I want small government, less regulations, lower taxes etc.

Enough about me. I really think that if this forum wants to have political discussions other side has to be present too. Cause this doesn't make much sense. Someone is blaming Trump on XY issue and trying to convince people on forum that he is an idiot, but they already think that, so there is no actual achievement.
Title: Re: Who should be the Democratic nominee for President in 2020?
Post by: Bruce Steele on December 12, 2017, 04:38:28 AM
Charles Barkley
 Now OT. Oren , I too wish we were talking about something else besides Politics.( although ) I try to serve my time on committees and commit to the small time due diligence of Democratic processes. I am conflicted. I think my time is required because I question anyone who drawn to power. Damage control means sitting through all the days of pointless meetings until the one day arrives when your efforts ( your opinion ) might make a difference. Politics
 I am reduced into efforts at subsistence. So much seems preposterous , the knowledge of climate change in the detail contain herein, the ridiculous processes of politics. How is it we bridge the huge divide?
 
 
Title: Re: Who should be the Democratic nominee for President in 2020?
Post by: Pmt111500 on December 13, 2017, 06:13:04 AM
I can't no more see a way to bridge the huge divide. Hence, I guess the extraordinary (for me) interest in politics. Maybe the side of those accepting science should just name their 'axis of evil' though it's a cheapo that will most certainly backfire (re:Al Gore plane)
Title: Re: Who should be the Democratic nominee for President in 2020?
Post by: Rob Dekker on December 13, 2017, 10:19:53 AM
And worse of all, the posts in these threads are repetitive. I doubt anyone has changed his mind based on all these varying points of view. I keep seeing the same people always posting the same opinions. Totally useless.

If we would all think alike then would it be more useful to have a discussion ?
Or would anyone change their mind ?

I think the political discussions on this forum are very helpful.
They tend to sharpen the mind, since they avoid "group think" and force to find out the facts more than any other topic of debate on this forum.

If we all agree with each other life would be rather dull.
Title: Re: Who should be the Democratic nominee for President in 2020?
Post by: pileus on December 21, 2017, 03:38:18 PM
Peter Daou is a propagandist and none of his assertions are legitimate, none.

For example, the 1994 crime bill won his support because of the Assault Weapons Ban and the Violence Against Women provisions.  Compare that with Daou's later assertions that Bernie was in the pocket of the NRA.

https://berniesanders.com/press-release/sanders-voted-for-1994-crime-bill-to-support-assault-weapons-ban-violence-against-women-provisions/

It is pathetic that this clown asserts himself to be a 'progressive' when he is clearly a neoliberal establishment hack.

“neoliberal,” the second most favorite conjuring term here after Corporate Democrat. 

The blind allegiance to Bernie by some is not very different than what is going on with Trump's core base.  Massive blind spots and a reflexive refusal to consider his flaws and weaknesses.

Bernie is a fraud and a phony.

Title: Re: Who should be the Democratic nominee for President in 2020?
Post by: TerryM on December 21, 2017, 04:01:11 PM
What an odd poll question, as matched by the odd responses.
Terry


Title: Re: Who should be the Democratic nominee for President in 2020?
Post by: sidd on January 30, 2018, 12:16:37 AM
Someone thinks Bernie will run in 2020 ... as a Democrat.

https://medium.com/@nikohouse/no-bernie-2020-will-not-be-the-same-as-2016-cd0dddde481a

Dunno if i agree. Bernie is getting old.

sidd
Title: Re: Who should be the Democratic nominee for President in 2020?
Post by: sidd on September 12, 2018, 11:37:50 PM
Let's hear it: Dimon in 2020

" I mean, I've said this before Trump was elected. You're not going to get a wealthy New Yorker elected president. Boy I was dead wrong. "

So here's Dimon making another prediction:

"I think I could beat Trump."

Why buy the king when you can be the king ?

https://www.cnbc.com/2018/09/12/jamie-dimon-says-he-could-beat-trump-in-an-election.html

sidd
Title: Re: Who should be the Democratic nominee for President in 2020?
Post by: mostly_lurking on September 14, 2018, 11:21:08 AM
She has fallen off the radar for quite a while. This would be a great idea!  Progressive, woman and a  vet... and I love her voice   8)

Title: Re: Who should be the Democratic nominee for President in 2020?
Post by: jacksmith4tx on September 14, 2018, 04:16:12 PM
and a  vet
I personally don't care for ex-military politicians. Too easy for them to fall back to 'military solutions' that justify huge defense budgets.

I nominate Beto O'Rourke. He's got Willie Nelson doing a benefit concert (his first ever for a politician!) for him in Austin on Sep. 29th.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beto_O%27Rourke
Title: Re: Who should be the Democratic nominee for President in 2020?
Post by: TerryM on September 15, 2018, 09:01:00 AM
Tulsi calls America's interference in Syria a "Betrayal of the American People"

She previously had called out Obama for the same thing.

Americans elected the last Presidential candidate who called for peace with Syria and Russia.
Who know, perhaps it will work this time round?

https://www.zerohedge.com/news/2018-09-13/tulsi-gabbard-house-floor-slams-betrayal-american-people-after-911-over-syria

Terry
Title: Re: Who should be the Democratic nominee for President in 2020?
Post by: sidd on September 27, 2018, 03:08:31 AM
Here's an oddball:

https://www.politico.com/story/2018/09/26/hickenlooper-colorado-2020-democrats-842596

sidd
Title: Re: Who should be the Democratic nominee for President in 2020?
Post by: SteveMDFP on September 27, 2018, 05:32:44 PM
Here's an oddball:

https://www.politico.com/story/2018/09/26/hickenlooper-colorado-2020-democrats-842596

sidd

I think Dems could do a lot worse.  He's soft on fracking, but fracking will need to die from low oil prices anyway.  He could do well in the general election--Americans tend to prefer governors over senators.

The article acknowledges that his great hurdle will be in the primaries, not having a strong profile to suit the Democratic base. 

Thus, he's a prime choice to be VP.  Let him marinate in that post for 4-8 years, and he could then be a very good Presidential candidate, if he keeps a strong profile over those years.
Title: Re: Who should be the Democratic nominee for President in 2020?
Post by: litesong on September 30, 2018, 04:34:00 AM
In close assessments, the following candidates & reasons to elect, in any order democrats may want:
Senator Cory Booker (Has relations with both repubs & dems, constructing legislation with best chances of passage; Clarence Thomas bad-mouths him)
Joy Reid (Comprehensive knowledge & exceedingly fine ability to concisely present information; Knows how to counter re-pubic-lick-un flapjaw)
Rachael Maddow (Wide grasp of political backwaters; Has connections, unbeknownst to other journalists (& most politicians, too); First with details to "don'T rump" treasonous white-washing of russian stolen & illegal assets)
Lawrence O'Donnell (First to be attacked by "don'T rump"; Has politically eviscerated politicians so quickly, they are still standing, but dead)
///////
Of the above who would be president, the others would be powerful vice-presidents & members of the Cabinet.
Title: Re: Who should be the Democratic nominee for President in 2020?
Post by: sidd on October 01, 2018, 05:25:02 AM
Democratic candidate Avenatti ? Well, if Trump could win ...

https://www.politico.com/story/2018/08/10/michael-avenatti-presidential-run-iowa-2020-771291
https://www.mediaite.com/print/michael-avenatti-exploring-presidential-run/

I suggest Stormy Daniels for vice. What could go wrong ?

sidd
Title: Re: Who should be the Democratic nominee for President in 2020?
Post by: SteveMDFP on October 01, 2018, 09:36:58 AM


I suggest Stormy Daniels for vice. What could go wrong ?

sidd

Well, she does have good positions.
;-)
Title: Re: Who should be the Democratic nominee for President in 2020?
Post by: TerryM on October 01, 2018, 10:07:59 AM


I suggest Stormy Daniels for vice. What could go wrong ?

sidd

Well, she does have good positions.
;-)
And an intimate understanding of vice.
Terry 8)
Title: Re: Who should be the Democratic nominee for President in 2020?
Post by: sidd on October 02, 2018, 11:38:03 PM
Biden leads in Iowa, 37% of respondents, N=500 likely caucus attendees.

"16 percent backed Sen. Elizabeth Warren, 12 percent supported Sen. Bernie Sanders, 10 percent picked Sen. Kamala Harris and Sen. Cory Booker received support from 8 percent."

Sherrod Brown not on the list.

https://www.politico.com/story/2018/10/01/poll-biden-leads-iowa-democrats-854872

Full poll results:

https://www.politico.com/f/?id=00000166-30b4-d5d9-ab67-fef45d120000

If Biden is the nominee, it would reveal that the Democratic party has learned nothing from 2016. And a recipe for low turnout.

sidd


Title: Re: Who should be the Democratic nominee for President in 2020?
Post by: TerryM on October 03, 2018, 02:19:05 AM
Biden leads in Iowa, 37% of respondents, N=500 likely caucus attendees.

If Biden is the nominee, it would reveal that the Democratic party has learned nothing from 2016. And a recipe for low turnout.

sidd
I'm seeing no indication that the DNC, or the DCCC have learned a damn thing. The wrong candidates braying the wrong message, because it worked so well in the past?


"Hope & Change" at least won elections. "Your voters are Deplorable Dregs" wins enemies for life.


Screeching that the loyal opposition appoints rapists, and that those who support him sanction these activities might cause more than a few to take umbrage. One of the places they'll take their umbrage is to the voting booth. ::)

Terry
Title: Re: Who should be the Democratic nominee for President in 2020?
Post by: sidd on November 13, 2018, 12:50:58 AM
Now here's an outsider: Ojeda

“The reason why the Democratic Party fell from grace is because they become nothing more than elitist. That was it. Goldman Sachs, that’s who they were. The Democratic Party is supposed to be the party that fights for the working class, and that’s exactly what I do. I will stand with unions wholeheartedly, and that’s the problem: the Democratic Party wants to say that, but their actions do not mirror that.”

"Members of Congress, he proposes, should be required to donate their net wealth above a certain threshold — Ojeda puts it at a million dollars — to discourage using public office for private gain. In return, retired members of Congress would get a pension of $130,000 a year and be able to earn additional income to reach $250,000. Anything above that would be donated."

“When you get into politics, that’s supposed to be a life of service, but that’s not what it’s been. You know, a person goes into politics, they win a seat in Congress or the Senate, and it’s a $174,000 [salary], but yet two years later, they’re worth $30 million, and that’s one of the problems that we have in society today. That’s how come no one trusts — or has very much respect for — politicians,”

Heeheehee. I like him already.

https://theintercept.com/2018/11/11/richard-ojeda-2020-president/

sidd
Title: Re: Who should be the Democratic nominee for President in 2020?
Post by: sidd on November 14, 2018, 06:30:36 AM
No surprise, Sherrod Brown is considering a bid:

https://www.cleveland.com/metro/index.ssf/2018/11/sen_sherrod_brown_of_ohio_is_w.html

https://www.dispatch.com/news/20181112/sherrod-brown-for-president-hes-thinking-about-it

Might be three from Ahia: Tim Ryan (D) and John Kasich (R) are thinking about it too.

sidd
Title: Re: Who should be the Democratic nominee for President in 2020?
Post by: Klondike Kat on November 14, 2018, 02:21:35 PM
Biden leads in Iowa, 37% of respondents, N=500 likely caucus attendees.

"16 percent backed Sen. Elizabeth Warren, 12 percent supported Sen. Bernie Sanders, 10 percent picked Sen. Kamala Harris and Sen. Cory Booker received support from 8 percent."

Sherrod Brown not on the list.

https://www.politico.com/story/2018/10/01/poll-biden-leads-iowa-democrats-854872

Full poll results:

https://www.politico.com/f/?id=00000166-30b4-d5d9-ab67-fef45d120000

If Biden is the nominee, it would reveal that the Democratic party has learned nothing from 2016. And a recipe for low turnout.

sidd

I wouldn't go that far.  After two tries, they will have learned that they cannot win with Clinton.
Title: Re: Who should be the Democratic nominee for President in 2020?
Post by: sidd on November 14, 2018, 10:08:39 PM
America's Finest News Source: A Hundred Million Or Me

"Hillary Clinton told reporters she is launching a campaign Tuesday that will raise $100 million by the end of the year or else she will run for president."

"At press time, sources confirmed Clinton had raised $17.6 billion in the first 45 seconds of the campaign."

https://politics.theonion.com/hillary-launches-campaign-to-raise-100-million-or-else-1830416470

sidd
Title: Re: Who should be the Democratic nominee for President in 2020?
Post by: sidd on November 22, 2018, 05:39:32 AM
Ooo, another billionaire. Steyer looks like he'll jump in too.

https://www.latimes.com/politics/la-pol-ca-steyer-20181120-story.html

sidd
 
Title: Re: Who should be the Democratic nominee for President in 2020?
Post by: sidd on January 01, 2019, 02:31:08 AM
Warren in:

https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/sen-elizabeth-warren-says-she-will-seek-the-presidency-in-2020/2018/12/31/1b0ae010-022f-11e9-b5df-5d3874f1ac36_story.html

sidd
Title: Re: Who should be the Democratic nominee for President in 2020?
Post by: sidd on January 12, 2019, 06:10:40 AM
Gabbard in:

https://www.cnn.com/2019/01/11/politics/tulsi-gabbard-van-jones/index.html

sidd
Title: Re: Who should be the Democratic nominee for President in 2020?
Post by: TerryM on January 12, 2019, 06:59:05 AM
Gabbard in:

https://www.cnn.com/2019/01/11/politics/tulsi-gabbard-van-jones/index.html (https://www.cnn.com/2019/01/11/politics/tulsi-gabbard-van-jones/index.html)

sidd


Can Tulsi, as a pacifist survive the DNC? If so she might be able to win a general election.
Terry
Title: Re: Who should be the Democratic nominee for President in 2020?
Post by: sidd on January 12, 2019, 10:20:13 PM
Castro in:

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-46852034

sidd
Title: Re: Who should be the Democratic nominee for President in 2020?
Post by: sidd on January 16, 2019, 09:57:10 PM
Gillibrand in:

https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/sen-kirsten-gillibrand-tells-stephen-colbert-she-will-run-for-president/2019/01/15/5de9103e-0eb2-11e9-8938-5898adc28fa2_story.html

sidd
Title: Re: Who should be the Democratic nominee for President in 2020?
Post by: Rob Dekker on January 18, 2019, 08:04:09 AM

https://www.facebook.com/CREDO/videos/10158154583395968/

Michelle Obama for president !
Title: Re: Who should be the Democratic nominee for President in 2020?
Post by: Neven on January 18, 2019, 10:49:29 AM
Are you sure you don't want Oprah Winfrey, Whoopi or The Rock, or some other out-of-touch millionaire?

Or maybe just this guy:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sGUNPMPrxvA
Title: Re: Who should be the Democratic nominee for President in 2020?
Post by: Pmt111500 on January 18, 2019, 12:57:11 PM
Some fellow who pays for a wall between Ireland and GB  ;D :D ;D
Title: Re: Who should be the Democratic nominee for President in 2020?
Post by: be cause on January 19, 2019, 02:09:27 AM
Some fellow who pays for a wall between Ireland and GB  ;D :D ;D

living as I do less than a mile from the Irish border in what was known as the murder triangle .. I prefer no walls at all at all  ;)
Title: Re: Who should be the Democratic nominee for President in 2020?
Post by: sidd on January 19, 2019, 05:58:04 AM
Taibbi at rollingstone last month: Bernie should run

"What’s both maddening and endearing about him as a politician is that he never changes"

"reporters constantly make the mistake of thinking politicians are causes, not effects."

"he’s constitutionally incapable of deviating from his platform. I don’t even think Sanders would know how to betray his own ideas for political gain."

"Sanders is no Lenin or Trotsky. He doesn’t want to overthrow free enterprise or establish a national ice cream. But the movement he and his wife are leading has goals that are genuinely threatening to the traditional funders of presidential campaigns of both parties in America"

"IN THE mid-2000s, then-congressman Sanders invited me to tag along to work in the House ... I found him odd at first. Sanders almost never asked to go off the record, and he seemed so indifferent to how some of his more blunt observations about his workplace might play in print that I wondered at first if there might be something wrong with him."

"It took a while to realize that Sanders simply is who he appears to be. There’s no second-level calculation there, no chilled-out off-duty version who stops babbling about public heating oil programs or VA coverage once you turn off the recorder."

"he currently polls better with nonwhite voters than white ones"

"Someone has to take up those fights eventually. "

Read the whole thing:

https://www.rollingstone.com/politics/politics-features/yes-bernie-should-run-771260/

Personally, i'm not so sure. Mebbe someone younger can step up to inherit the mantle. But i see Taibbi's point, Sanders is proven to be unswerving, and that's something we can say of very few others.

sidd
Title: Re: Who should be the Democratic nominee for President in 2020?
Post by: Pmt111500 on January 19, 2019, 03:04:26 PM
Some fellow who pays for a wall between Ireland and GB  ;D :D ;D

living as I do less than a mile from the Irish border in what was known as the murder triangle .. I prefer no walls at all at all  ;)
Well GB might sell Northern Ireland to Ireland but I guess this is not on the conservative agenda.
Title: Re: Who should be the Democratic nominee for President in 2020?
Post by: sidd on January 21, 2019, 07:13:44 PM
Harris in:

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-46947839

sidd
Title: Re: Who should be the Democratic nominee for President in 2020?
Post by: sidd on January 23, 2019, 10:26:23 PM
Buttigieg in:

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-46970207

sidd
Title: Re: Who should be the Democratic nominee for President in 2020?
Post by: sidd on January 26, 2019, 09:22:24 PM
Ojeda out:

https://www.thedailybeast.com/richard-ojeda-becomes-first-2020-democrat-to-drop-out-of-race

sidd
Title: Re: Who should be the Democratic nominee for President in 2020?
Post by: sidd on February 01, 2019, 09:31:14 PM
Booker in:

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-46958829

America's Finest News Source has more:

https://politics.theonion.com/cory-booker-apologizes-to-wall-street-bankers-for-the-m-1832268385

sidd
Title: Re: Who should be the Democratic nominee for President in 2020?
Post by: Lurk on February 02, 2019, 08:30:15 AM
This info more or less fits here because it's about the 2020 elections and who might become president.

Recent Gallup research info is via this show @ 14 minutes
https://www.abc.net.au/news/programs/planet-america/

Howard Schultz is talking about running on the basis he is economically conservative and socially liberal. He claims that is where most Americans are but he is completely wrong. Therefore he will not get anywhere.

Abortion changes are in the news again this time from Democrat bases. eg
 Dems Are Wildly Out of Step With Voters on Abortion
Ashley McGuire, USA Today
Reproductive Rights Under Siege Across the U.S.
Jennie Wetter, The Hill

Fact is the extreme radicals on abortion in Democrat circles are wildly out of step with Voters. A distinct majority of Americans are socially conservative. Abortion is a red rag to a bull. If the Dems don't tone that done it might do them in in 2020. Yes, just that alone could do it. People's beliefs run deep. Trump really isn't an ideological "right to lifer" but he does know what side his bread is buttered. So he says what needs to be said. He is certainly no emotionally charged 'born again' christian type either but he's happy to act as if he is and pretend he believes what they believe if it gets him elected. He's a pragmatist through and through.

Those registered as Independents are not really "Independent" at all. They are primarily either strong Republicans or strong Democrats. They Vote the same way each and every election. Only about 10% of all voters are truly flexible and independent individualist  "Independents."

So targeting one's speeches and advertising to the "independent voter" is pretty much a waste of time and resources.

A MiSU political scientist puts it this way: "Pure Independents were more stable in their Party support across 2000-2004 than strong Partisans were 1972-1976" Things have changed iow.

Also see the Ideology grid below for 2016.

Top half are socially conservative voters. Bottom half socially liberal.

Left half are economically Liberal / Progressive and
the right half are economically Conservative RWingish.

The red and blue predominately sit where you'd expect them to be - top right and bottom left.
Howard Schultz sits in the bottom right - it's almost empty.

The Top Left is where the real action is to be found. That is likely where many "independent voters" may reside too.

That is a highly populated quartile. Socially Conservative but Economically Liberal and progressive.

It is also from where Trump derived a core part of his support which continues to this day. Predominant strong Social Conservatives segment especially.

Social Liberalism, endlessly discussing minorities like gays trans mexicans immigrants and bathrooms, and always making Abortion the issues really pisses these people off ... to a point where they will stop listening to ALL your messages no matter how much they would agree - even to addressing climate change economic issues with a Liberal/Progressive mindset. They might easily agree to a New Green Deal but not if it comes with being forced to also accept promoting gay marriage, trans, going soft on drugs, stopping the death penalty, or barring Muslims, Mexicans border invasions and promoting the Pill and Abortion as well.

But with democrats talkingbaout Medicare for all and how to pay for it, so the socially conservative poor can have health care too, then they'll listen up. Might even Vote for you.



Social Conservatives may well support a strong US Military and always leans to defending the Military no matter what they do badly, they are also smart enough and Liberal enough leaning to realize that keeping on spending $700 plus Billions every year is not rational and helps no one at home to live better or to pay less taxes.

But the more the Democrats choose a leadership that pushes Conservative "middle of the road" Economics then they are TOAST across the whole electorate that might Vote for them.

Which is pretty much what happened in 2016. If they do not take the hint from all the Economic Progressive Liberal Democrats who won Primaries and Elections in 2018 then the Democrats are toast again.
Title: Re: Who should be the Democratic nominee for President in 2020?
Post by: b_lumenkraft on February 18, 2019, 08:31:48 PM
This one is kind of remarkable!

Quote
...[he] slammed his daughter for stereotyping her heritage for political gain!

Kamala's Father Slams Her - "I wish to separate us from this travesty"
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TMHQa8mL5x4&feature=youtu.be
Title: Re: Who should be the Democratic nominee for President in 2020?
Post by: b_lumenkraft on February 19, 2019, 07:26:22 AM
Kamala Harris Packed California Prisons With Pot Peddlers
Quote
At least 1,560 people were sent to state prisons for marijuana-related offenses between 2011 and 2016

Link >> https://freebeacon.com/politics/kamala-harris-packed-california-prisons-for-peddling-pot/


She is, through and through, a hypocrite and misanthrope. Just like corporate America likes it.

So i guess she will win the primaries via super-delegates and then she will lose against the hypocritic misanthrope in chief.
Title: Re: Who should be the Democratic nominee for President in 2020?
Post by: b_lumenkraft on February 19, 2019, 02:01:12 PM
✧ʕ̢̣̣̣̣̩̩̩̩·͡˔·ོɁ̡̣̣̣̣̩̩̩̩✧ woooooohooooooo
 BREAKING: Bernie Sanders OFFICIALLY ANNOUNCES FOR 2020!! Former Campaign Member Weighs In
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m7tiR9XTvCU
Title: Re: Who should be the Democratic nominee for President in 2020?
Post by: b_lumenkraft on February 19, 2019, 04:48:43 PM
Bernie Sanders’s 2020 policy agenda: Medicare for All; action on climate change; $15 an hour minimum wage

Link >> https://www.washingtonpost.com/us-policy/2019/02/19/bernie-sanderss-policy-agenda-medicare-all-action-climate-change-an-hour-minimum-wage/?utm_term=.cd0256c8c439
Title: Re: Who should be the Democratic nominee for President in 2020?
Post by: Lurk on February 20, 2019, 07:45:45 AM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s7DRwz0cAt0
Title: Re: Who should be the Democratic nominee for President in 2020?
Post by: b_lumenkraft on February 20, 2019, 08:26:15 AM
Bernie Sanders' Campaign Says He Raised $4 Million in Half a Day

Quote
(WASHINGTON) — Bernie Sanders’ campaign says he has raised more than $4 million in the 12 hours since announcing his 2020 presidential campaign.

The Vermont senator said Tuesday that nearly 150,000 individuals had contributed to his Democratic bid.

Previously, the biggest first-day fundraiser in the race had been California Sen. Kamala Harris, who raised $1.5 million in the first 24 hours of her campaign.

Link >> http://time.com/5533134/bernie-sanders-2020-4-million-raised/
Title: Re: Who should be the Democratic nominee for President in 2020?
Post by: Rob Dekker on February 20, 2019, 11:45:01 AM
In his 2016 campaign, Sanders’s primary focus was on domestic economic issues, and many critics regarded him as a lightweight on foreign policy. This time around, Sanders has won over skeptics in the foreign-policy establishment with substantive speeches in 2017 and 2018, laying out a comprehensive vision for America’s role in the world. Beyond wanting to end or prevent wars in the Middle East, Sanders has also linked the global rise of authoritarian populism to wealth inequality, and has called for an international progressive movement to combat authoritarian leaders and kleptocrats from Russia to Brazil. And while Duss doesn’t want to take credit for what he says are his boss’s deeply held views, he has had a hand in all of this.

https://www.thenation.com/article/matt-duss-bernie-sanders-foreign-policy-blob/
Title: Re: Who should be the Democratic nominee for President in 2020?
Post by: sidd on February 21, 2019, 06:50:41 AM
I just realized the best thing that joe biden could do for bernie would be to announce his candidacy. Expose the contradictions, so to speak.

sidd
Title: Re: Who should be the Democratic nominee for President in 2020?
Post by: interstitial on February 21, 2019, 03:20:36 PM
Quote
an international progressive movement to combat authoritarian leaders and kleptocrats

"Make America a Democracy Again!"

I wish the USA was a democracy again! Over one billions dollars spent for each presidential candidate. The system is broken any candidate who is able to raise that kind of money has been bought off by a corrupted system.
Title: Re: Who should be the Democratic nominee for President in 2020?
Post by: wili on February 21, 2019, 03:57:15 PM
As long as there is both an obscenely enormous gap between the haves and the haven'ts, and as long as Citizens United stands, there is no chance we will have anything like a real democracy. Even then, there will be lots of class, race, gender, and other structural impediments to gaining democracy.
Title: Re: Who should be the Democratic nominee for President in 2020?
Post by: b_lumenkraft on February 21, 2019, 04:45:02 PM
So we all agree to have a constitutional reform in Bernies 5th year of presidency?  8)

Title: Re: Who should be the Democratic nominee for President in 2020?
Post by: b_lumenkraft on February 22, 2019, 06:16:18 PM
Killer Mike: "In the last few years of his life, ... his [MLKs] stance ... was anti-war, focused on eradicating poverty, and uplifted workers' rights and the restoration of basic humanity. No other presidential candidate has ever had an agenda matching Dr King's agenda more than Bernie Sanders. ... So my support of Bernie isn't about personality or politics, but the agenda."
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gydtjjZHYBE
Title: Re: Who should be the Democratic nominee for President in 2020?
Post by: b_lumenkraft on February 23, 2019, 08:47:43 AM
Well there ya go .... a nice find.

Thank you Lurk. Thought so too!

Quote
Can we find two?

On it! ;)
Title: Re: Who should be the Democratic nominee for President in 2020?
Post by: b_lumenkraft on February 23, 2019, 12:50:43 PM
Bernie Sanders(1988): "The real issue in this country...is Class. I think we could have a Black or Woman president, if they were on the side of corporations and money, rather than workers and the poor."

This is some consistency right there.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MnmieZa0jnk

Title: Re: Who should be the Democratic nominee for President in 2020?
Post by: b_lumenkraft on February 25, 2019, 06:24:59 PM
Well well well! :)

Title: Re: Who should be the Democratic nominee for President in 2020?
Post by: b_lumenkraft on February 26, 2019, 08:30:34 AM
Yeah, that's right!

I love my US postal service and the highways and i totally think billionaires should pay more taxes. I just love to stay healthy from breathing good air. Of course, i think healthcare is a human right. I really want a better future for my kids, who wouldn't, right?

But I JUST HATE SOCIALISM! What's so hard to understand?
Title: Re: Who should be the Democratic nominee for President in 2020?
Post by: Rob Dekker on February 27, 2019, 08:37:11 AM
There have been some who have promoted Tulsi Gabbard for president, since she is supposedly progressive and anti-war.

Yet neither of that is true.

Before you vote Tulsi Gabbard for president, you want to read this article :

https://arcdigital.media/tulsi-gabbard-is-not-anti-war-660e7d1e4ce1

Quote
Since she announced her candidacy, Gabbard has appeared regularly on television to cycle through her talking points, many of which sound strikingly familiar to those Trump offered up on the campaign trail in 2016.

She also has the vote of David Duke :
https://www.motherjones.com/politics/2019/02/david-duke-tulsi-gabbard/

And if you are willing to spend some time, here is a very long thread on Tulsi Gabbard's "progressive" (in reality, far right) beliefs, voting record, advocacy, and actions. 
Worth your time to go through this. :

https://twitter.com/pplswar/status/830210812119744512
Title: Re: Who should be the Democratic nominee for President in 2020?
Post by: Neven on February 27, 2019, 03:50:34 PM
There have been some who have promoted Tulsi Gabbard for president, since she is supposedly progressive and anti-war.

Yet neither of that is true.

Before you vote Tulsi Gabbard for president, you want to read this article :

https://arcdigital.media/tulsi-gabbard-is-not-anti-war-660e7d1e4ce1

Quote
Since she announced her candidacy, Gabbard has appeared regularly on television to cycle through her talking points, many of which sound strikingly familiar to those Trump offered up on the campaign trail in 2016.

She also has the vote of David Duke :
https://www.motherjones.com/politics/2019/02/david-duke-tulsi-gabbard/

And if you are willing to spend some time, here is a very long thread on Tulsi Gabbard's "progressive" (in reality, far right) beliefs, voting record, advocacy, and actions. 
Worth your time to go through this. :

https://twitter.com/pplswar/status/830210812119744512

That David Duke stuff is just a corporatist smear, the Twitter feed is somewhat more interesting,
though very slanted as well.

I've read the article, and although it contains lots of circular propaganda, I admit that I'm not entirely certain that Gabbard, like Trump and Obama, would follow through on her promises once elected. Especially when it comes to the war machine. It's not for nothing that the Democratic Party is heavily promoting the election of former military and intelligence personnel to Congress, and that was obviously Gabbard's way in.

Still, she has seen war up close, like few people here have, so who knows, maybe she's genuinely progressive. Her stances on health care, etc, definitely are. She also renounced her DNC position to support Sanders, instead of cheating him, like the rest did.

So, Gabbard is still number two for me if I could vote, after Sanders. She's better and more progressive than all the others on the list, with the exception perhaps of Warren (who toes the corrupt party line too much for my taste).
Title: Re: Who should be the Democratic nominee for President in 2020?
Post by: Rob Dekker on February 28, 2019, 09:52:11 AM
...
So, Gabbard is still number two for me if I could vote, after Sanders. She's better and more progressive than all the others on the list, with the exception perhaps of Warren (who toes the corrupt party line too much for my taste).

No, Neven. She really is NOT more progressive than all the others on the list.

She is at position 157 on the list right now and obtained a solid "F" :

http://www.progressivepunch.org/scores.htm?house=house

That's DOWN from position 133 last year :

(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DgTkJ2rWsAA-GjU.jpg)

She is NOT progressive. I don't understand why you keep on insisting she is, in spite of all the evidence to the contrary.
Title: Re: Who should be the Democratic nominee for President in 2020?
Post by: Neven on February 28, 2019, 10:56:26 AM
AFAICT and IMO, she is more progressive than everyone else on the list of presidential candidates as per the poll, with the exception of Sanders and Warren. But again, I'm not sure she really means what she says and whether she'll be a fake liar, like Trump, Obama and the Clintons (whereas with Booker, Harris, Biden, Gillibrand, O#Rourke, etc I'm 100% sure, because they are all Corporate Democrats who hope to be rewarded with fame and fortune if they do the bidding of concentrated wealth).

BTW, if she is as non-progressive as you say she is, Rob, she sounds like the perfect candidate for those 'liberals' who think McCain is a hero and George Bush isn't a war criminal. But without a cue from mainstream establishment media they won't change their minds. If that happens and mainstream media starts praising her and heaping loads of free airtime on her, I'll be sure that she's also fake.
Title: Re: Who should be the Democratic nominee for President in 2020?
Post by: Neven on February 28, 2019, 11:45:21 AM
Why is that list important to you Rob to rely on?

Facts! Science!
Title: Re: Who should be the Democratic nominee for President in 2020?
Post by: Rob Dekker on March 01, 2019, 03:36:26 AM


Why is that list important to you Rob to rely on?

eg in the Lifetime Overall scores @ 174th is Ocasio-Cortez, Alexandria

She's behind Gabbard, Tulsi at 152nd , 151 Schiff, Adam, as well as Pelosi at 102nd.

I don't think people will use it before they are walking into the polling booth to vote - at least I hope not.

So you found a machine, you turn a few knobs, and then remark that the whole thing is out of balance, so nobody should use it.

I really hope you are not an engineer or a mechanic. ;)

Why not start with the weighted score that progressivepunch.org uses themselves :
 Ocasio-Cortez, Alexandria 1st place
 Pelosi, Nancy 47th
 Schiff, Adam, 122nd
 Gabbard, Tulsi, 155th

Tulsi Gabbard dropped so low because she voted AGAINST progressive causes for bills that were clearly progressive. That's because she is NOT a progressive candidate.

Govtrack puts her in the middle of the pack. Almost Republican :

(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/C-HTV7uWsAEjxAO.jpg)
Title: Re: Who should be the Democratic nominee for President in 2020?
Post by: sidd on March 01, 2019, 10:20:23 PM
Inslee in:

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-47418955

sidd
Title: Re: Who should be the Democratic nominee for President in 2020?
Post by: sidd on March 04, 2019, 11:59:18 PM
getting crowded on this bus: Hickenlooper in

https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/politics/elections/2019/03/04/2020-election-former-colorado-governor-john-hickenlooper-joins-democratic-field/3053038002/

sidd
Title: Re: Who should be the Democratic nominee for President in 2020?
Post by: Tor Bejnar on March 05, 2019, 01:44:23 PM
I was suitably impressed by Washington (state) Governor Jay Inslee (https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/politics/gov-inslee-climate-change-is-a-true-national-emergency/vi-BBUnARd) in his interview (and Rachel Maddow's background talk beforehand).  My co-worker this morning said to me, "I know who your candidate it for President … a one-issue guy … and it's your issue." 
Title: Re: Who should be the Democratic nominee for President in 2020?
Post by: b_lumenkraft on March 21, 2019, 07:39:25 AM
4 New Democratic Primary Polls! March 2019 - Democratic Presidential Candidates 2020 Frontrunners

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RcYwnKV9Vbw
Title: Re: Who should be the Democratic nominee for President in 2020?
Post by: b_lumenkraft on March 21, 2019, 07:48:02 AM
TL;DR: According to Rasmussen only Biden and Sanders can beat Trump. Emerson sees Biden and Sanders head to head.

Good to know: CNN can't be trusted since they only poll people older than 49 as if they had an agenda which is not informing people correctly.
Title: Re: Who should be the Democratic nominee for President in 2020?
Post by: Klondike Kat on March 21, 2019, 04:29:59 PM
Emerson shows that only Biden is ahead of Trump.  Everyone else is within the polling margin of error.
Title: Re: Who should be the Democratic nominee for President in 2020?
Post by: b_lumenkraft on March 21, 2019, 05:30:42 PM
Beto O’Rourke Removed From ‘No Fossil Fuel Money Pledge’ Following Sludge Report

Quote
Texas Democratic Rep. Beto O’Rourke has been removed from a pledge he signed to reject large donations from fossil fuel PACs and executives, following a recent Sludge investigation of federal campaign finance records.
Link >> https://readsludge.com/2018/12/18/beto-orourke-removed-from-no-fossil-fuel-money-pledge-following-sludge-report/
Title: Re: Who should be the Democratic nominee for President in 2020?
Post by: sidd on March 22, 2019, 06:48:41 AM
Gravel in ? Makes Bernie look like a young 'un.

https://www.rollingstone.com/politics/politics-news/gravel-2020-810542/

sidd
Title: Re: Who should be the Democratic nominee for President in 2020?
Post by: b_lumenkraft on March 23, 2019, 07:11:13 PM
Bernie Decimates Multiple Trump Lies In Epic Video

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9p31l7ejXeo
Title: Re: Who should be the Democratic nominee for President in 2020?
Post by: Rob Dekker on March 30, 2019, 09:44:00 AM
Bernie Decimates Multiple Trump Lies In Epic Video

+1. Thank you. Great summary !
Title: Re: Who should be the Democratic nominee for President in 2020?
Post by: b_lumenkraft on March 30, 2019, 12:04:58 PM
Welcome, Rob. :)

I take it Bernie is your favourite candidate too?
Title: Re: Who should be the Democratic nominee for President in 2020?
Post by: sidd on April 03, 2019, 08:47:04 PM
America's Finest News Source: Bernie for Change

" anyone who hands me a dollar bill will immediately be handed 73 cents in change "

https://politics.theonion.com/increasingly-cocky-bernie-sanders-announces-he-won-t-ta-1833749650

sidd
Title: Re: Who should be the Democratic nominee for President in 2020?
Post by: b_lumenkraft on April 04, 2019, 04:22:43 PM
Jake Tapper Acknowledges 'Bernie 2020' Reality

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nX8QUD6echU
Title: Re: Who should be the Democratic nominee for President in 2020?
Post by: b_lumenkraft on April 04, 2019, 07:55:10 PM
Bernie Sanders Is the Frontrunner. Obviously. He leads the declared candidates in the polls, and he's dominating in fundraising. So why is he being ignored?

Quote
The root of Sanders’s appeal, as Hunt points out, is his performance during the 2016 primary. He won 23 primaries, receiving more votes from people under the age of 30 than Clinton and Donald Trump combined. Some have argued, convincingly, that he won by losing: He not only pushed the Clinton campaign to the left; he pushed the Democratic Party to the left.
Link >> https://newrepublic.com/article/153462/bernie-sanders-frontrunner-obviously
Title: Re: Who should be the Democratic nominee for President in 2020?
Post by: sidd on April 05, 2019, 08:58:36 PM
Ryan in:

https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/2020-election/ohio-rep-tim-ryan-throws-his-name-growing-2020-field-n990841

don't think he has a chance. Sherrod Brown looked at it and didnt jump, for good reason.

sidd
Title: Re: Who should be the Democratic nominee for President in 2020?
Post by: sidd on April 09, 2019, 09:16:11 PM
Gonna need a bigger bus: Swalwell in

https://www.cbsnews.com/amp/news/eric-swalwell-2020-california-congressman-tells-stephen-colbert-hes-running-for-president/

sidd
Title: Re: Who should be the Democratic nominee for President in 2020?
Post by: bbr2314 on April 09, 2019, 09:32:08 PM
I am noticing Buttigieg's support seems to be growing in a substantial way. I don't hate him but I don't love him. I think he will drift toward the center if he wins the primaries. He is the only candidate I am seeing mentioned on my friends' social media, in much the same way Bernie and Hillary were.
Title: Re: Who should be the Democratic nominee for President in 2020?
Post by: b_lumenkraft on April 09, 2019, 09:47:03 PM
The Truth About Pete Buttigieg 'Hype'

"What are your policies?"

"What he is doing is reflect on you what you want to hear."

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4zDzngcAZdE
Title: Re: Who should be the Democratic nominee for President in 2020?
Post by: bbr2314 on April 09, 2019, 09:56:47 PM
The Truth About Pete Buttigieg 'Hype'

"What are your policies?"

"What he is doing is reflect on you what you want to hear."

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4zDzngcAZdE
Bernie stands no chance despite what you may believe, I would say sorry but I'm not, :(
Title: Re: Who should be the Democratic nominee for President in 2020?
Post by: b_lumenkraft on April 09, 2019, 10:20:04 PM
How do you come to this conclusion bbr2314?

I'm asking because polls paint a different picture:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CKhecpFA9Fs
Title: Re: Who should be the Democratic nominee for President in 2020?
Post by: sidd on April 10, 2019, 06:45:13 AM
I think i mentioned that Gravel has tossed his hat in the ring. For those who don't know, or don't remember:

[wikipedia]

" on June 13, 1971, The New York Times began printing large portions of the Pentagon Papers ... a large collection of secret government documents and studies pertaining to the Vietnam War, of which former Defense Department analyst Daniel Ellsberg had made unauthorized copies and was determined to make public.[71] Ellsberg had for a year and a half approached members of Congress – such as William Fulbright, George McGovern, Charles Mathias, and Pete McCloskey – about publishing the documents, on the grounds that the Speech or Debate Clause of the Constitution would give congressional members immunity from prosecution, but all had refused.[72] Instead, Ellsberg gave the documents to the Times. "

" a federal court injunction halted publication in The Times; The Washington Post and several other newspapers began publishing parts of the documents, with some of them also being halted by injunctions ..."

"Ellsberg returned to his idea of having a member of Congress read them, and chose Gravel based on the latter's efforts against the draft;[7] Gravel agreed where previously others had not. "

"Gravel attempted to read the papers on the floor of the Senate as part of his filibuster against the draft, but was thwarted when no quorum could be formed.[75] Gravel instead convened a session of the Buildings and Grounds subcommittee that he chaired.[75] He got New York Congressman John Dow to testify that the war had soaked up funding for public buildings, thus making discussion of the war relevant to the committee.[76] He began reading from the papers with the press in attendance,[75] omitting supporting documents that he felt might compromise national security ..."

"He read until 1 a.m., until with tears and sobs he said that he could no longer physically continue ... Gravel ended the session by, with no other senators present, establishing unanimous consent[76] to insert 4,100 pages of the Papers into the Congressional Record of his subcommittee ... "

"this four-volume, relatively expensive set[78] became the "Senator Gravel Edition", which studies from Cornell University and the Annenberg Center for Communication have labeled as the most complete edition of the Pentagon Papers to be published"

That guy has more guts than any legislator today. If there were more like him, the torture report would be in the congressional records, and much more. Can you even imagine someone like Feinstein or Schumer doing anything remotely like this ? We have craven cowards, when we need lions.

https://www.mikegravel.org/issues/

sidd

Title: Re: Who should be the Democratic nominee for President in 2020?
Post by: sedziobs on April 11, 2019, 01:19:59 AM
Quote
The Gravel campaign has put out a 29-page platform. It is radical, almost a “wish list” for the left. It includes cutting the military budget by 50 percent, closing Guantanamo Bay, ending the use of drones, vowing not to invade any sovereign nation in the absence of a first strike, closing all military bases abroad, and abolishing the Senate and the electoral college. It contains many ideas that no other Democratic candidate would ever dare to mention. Bernie Sanders, Oks and Williams say, is concerned with appearing electable, and so is careful not to become too “radical.” Mike Gravel, with no chance whatsoever of winning the nomination, can say as he pleases.

So their goal is this: get the 65,000 individual donations necessary to qualify Mike Gravel for the Democratic debates. The donation amounts don’t matter for the purposes of qualifying—they can be as small as $1, which is what I donated. Mike Gravel can say things on stage that Bernie Sanders would never say. He can call for completely terminating U.S. military aid to Israel. He will talk about U.S. intervention in Venezuela. He will bring a radically pacifist voice onto the debate stage and discuss the reality of what war means and why we must prioritize global peace.
https://www.currentaffairs.org/2019/04/why-i-gave-a-buck-to-mike-gravel (https://www.currentaffairs.org/2019/04/why-i-gave-a-buck-to-mike-gravel)
Title: Re: Who should be the Democratic nominee for President in 2020?
Post by: sidd on April 11, 2019, 05:32:51 AM
I really like this one from Gravel:

"Rename the Department of Defense the Department of War."

(Was first renamed from the department of war to department of defense in 1947.)

sidd



Title: Re: Who should be the Democratic nominee for President in 2020?
Post by: sidd on April 12, 2019, 12:25:03 AM
Gravel and Gabbard denounce Assange arrest:

https://twitter.com/MikeGravel/status/1116379216570986496
https://twitter.com/TulsiGabbard/status/1116446982342529024

sidd
Title: Re: Who should be the Democratic nominee for President in 2020?
Post by: b_lumenkraft on April 13, 2019, 04:55:24 PM
TIL Joe Biden supported seperation in 1977.

Link >> https://edition.cnn.com/2019/04/11/politics/joe-biden-busing-letters-2020/index.html

You know, like 10 years after Bernie got arrested for protesting for MLK.

It is unbelievable for me that people who supported segregation never did their fair share of jail time. On the contrary, they are well-polled candidates for the 2020 election. You can't make this shit up, seriously.
Title: Re: Who should be the Democratic nominee for President in 2020?
Post by: Susan Anderson on April 13, 2019, 05:08:39 PM
Hating on Democrats will elect Republicans. Gravel's a great guy, but I'm for the art of the possible. Absolutism and faultfinding of the imperfect (while ignoring the monstrous) gets us Hitler, Stalin, Trump, MBS, Al Sisi, Erdogan, Kim Jong Un, Putin, Duterte, Netanyahu, Bolsonaro, Assad, Mugabe, etc. Undermining allies of social and humanitarian resistance gets you the establishment and coercion.

That said, I wish you all would take a good hard look at Elizabeth Warren, who is in my view the ideal to lead my country. She's not doing well, being a practical woman quite willing to take on the establishment, and surprisingly successful at doing so against great odds, but not inclined to hype and charismatic overstatement. There are several others I'd be happy with, Inslee for his 100% climate focus, Corey Booker, despite a few things

Tulsi Gabbard is a nice pretty woman, who follows a guru and probably could earn the support of the military-industrial establishment. She has some good views, but is weak overall. Rand Paul is monstrous, all about removing all restraint on corporate governance and getting rid of any regulatory restraint on the environment and corporate power.

Title: Re: Who should be the Democratic nominee for President in 2020?
Post by: Neven on April 13, 2019, 07:20:24 PM
Hating on Democrats will elect Republicans.

Joe Biden is a Republican, so no problems there.  ;D

It's important that as many people that say the right things make it to the debate stage, whether they can win the presidency or not. It's good if Warren, Gabbard, Gravel, Yang, and perhaps some more, make it there and get to have a say, because it's high time the Overton Window gets shoved back a bit. You can't beat Trump with the worn-out neoliberal narratives that worked two-three decades ago. Sort of.
Title: Re: Who should be the Democratic nominee for President in 2020?
Post by: bbr2314 on April 13, 2019, 09:08:01 PM
Hating on Democrats will elect Republicans.

Joe Biden is a Republican, so no problems there.  ;D

It's important that as many people that say the right things make it to the debate stage, whether they can win the presidency or not. It's good if Warren, Gabbard, Gravel, Yang, and perhaps some more, make it there and get to have a say, because it's high time the Overton Window gets shoved back a bit. You can't beat Trump with the worn-out neoliberal narratives that worked two-three decades ago. Sort of.

LOL. I love how Susan's post began with the "art of the possible" and then advocated for Elizabeth Warren, who wants to breakup Big Tech and reward minorities with reparations.

Any candidate who backs reparations is a non-starter in the United States. Why should I pay for the damages caused by slavery when my ancestors were in Europe at the time (and were subsequently forcibly moved by Germans + Russians)? Should I receive reparations from Neven for acts the Austrians actively collaborated with the Germans to perpetrate back in the 1940s?

Obviously the answer is "no" and also "that is very stupid". The same goes for reparations suggested in the US, where the division / arbitrary nature of "reparations" is even more nonsensical. Warren is a professional at pandering and while that may earn Pocahontas a point or two in primary polls she is not going to win the overall primaries and if she does, she will be destroyed by an enormous margin in the general election.

You can take my points made ^ and apply them to almost any other Democrat currently running. Biden is OK. But I don't think he will win the nomination. I think it will be a moonbat like Bernie Sanders and at that point Trump will crush / destroy in 2020, and if it is Sanders (or anyone but Biden), I would probably vote for Trump as well.

Finally: I would suggest that this insane response from "Susan" perfectly highlights how out of touch middle class Democrats are with working-class voters, especially in the middle of the country. These ridiculous and racist talking points (yes, reparations ARE racist) will only serve to distance the majority of previous D voters from whatever candidate makes these points, furthering the implosion of the party at large. Trump won in 2016 because 95% of Democrats have their heads too far up their own a$$ to realize how US elections work and what talking points are crucial to victory (and Hillary was busy campaigning in states like Georgia and Arizona like a lunatic). They refuse to recognize this three years later (i.e., Susan's post, b_lumenkraft's ongoing posts, etc) so it will come as no surprise when the same thing happens in 2020. It's the economy, stupid, and (IMO) Trump will unwind his trade war in time for a stock market bump through the general election, and that is all that will matter to the voting public.
Title: Re: Who should be the Democratic nominee for President in 2020?
Post by: b_lumenkraft on April 13, 2019, 09:44:24 PM
Why should I pay for the damages caused by slavery when my ancestors were in Europe at the time

Same reason why Germany pays reparations. Because it's the right thing to do.

You will never get rid of the problem, in this case racism, if you can't even admit wrongdoings and put your money where your mouth is.
Title: Re: Who should be the Democratic nominee for President in 2020?
Post by: bbr2314 on April 13, 2019, 10:20:14 PM
Why should I pay for the damages caused by slavery when my ancestors were in Europe at the time

Same reason why Germany pays reparations. Because it's the right thing to do.

You will never get rid of the problem, in this case racism, if you can't even admit wrongdoings and put your money where your mouth is.
I had nothing to do with these wrongdoings (re: slavery). My family has never received reparations from Germany or Russia. So WTF are you talking about?

This is the kind of diffuse & nonsensical logic that will lose your people the election. By saying "everyone is racist and white people need to compensate black people for existing" you are going to foment actual on-the-streets racism and make any existing issues much worse.

By your logic Neven should be living in a cave eating porridge and beans for every meal while he gives all of his income to whatever group "enlightened" people like yourself decide is morally correct, for all of the sins Austrians have committed this century. But luckily you are just some stupid Democrat and your ideas will never be practiced in reality.  ;D

Final note: if anyone were to ever attempt to implement reparations on a national scale, there would be full scale civil war. Thanks to the Second Amendment, b_lumenkraft's side would most definitely end up losing (and I don't see the military turning against the places where the soldiers originate, in fact, I would see them actively supporting whatever faction is against the liberal lunacy).
Title: Re: Who should be the Democratic nominee for President in 2020?
Post by: b_lumenkraft on April 13, 2019, 10:28:14 PM
So WTF are you talking about?

Well, what can i say to that? If you really don't know why and for what Germany is paying reparations, that's on you buddy. Entirely on you. Goto school.
Title: Re: Who should be the Democratic nominee for President in 2020?
Post by: bbr2314 on April 13, 2019, 10:31:41 PM
So WTF are you talking about?

Well, what can i say to that? If you really don't know why and for what Germany is paying reparations, that's on you buddy. Entirely on you. Goto school.
I HAVE NOT RECEIVED ANY REPARATIONS. The Germans displaced my entire family and then the Russians did as well. You keep saying "reparations are great," so where are my reparations? My point is you are stupid and outside of identifiable survivors of genocide (i.e. the Holocaust, which has survivors that are literally enumerated and a cast of perpetrators that are easily identifiable) they are unfeasible, and turning back the clock to 1865 on a country that has multiplied several times over in population since then, which does NOT have any living victims or perpetrators re: slavery, is a recipe for disaster.

I think this little exchange exemplifies why most people ended up voting for Trump in the states where it actually mattered. It isn't that people loved Trump (although some certainly did). It was because people like you have keyboards with which you antagonize to no benefit, and the public at large just wants you to STFU.
Title: Re: Who should be the Democratic nominee for President in 2020?
Post by: b_lumenkraft on April 13, 2019, 10:44:29 PM
I HAVE NOT RECEIVED ANY REPARATIONS.

Why don't you tell me?
Title: Re: Who should be the Democratic nominee for President in 2020?
Post by: bbr2314 on April 13, 2019, 10:46:52 PM
I HAVE NOT RECEIVED ANY REPARATIONS.

Why don't you tell me?
Why don't you keep on generating more votes for Trump, you have done it with me already, lol!
Title: Re: Who should be the Democratic nominee for President in 2020?
Post by: Neven on April 14, 2019, 12:26:03 AM
But did Germany pay any reparations? I mean, they did that after WWI and it turned out to be a huge mistake.
Title: Re: Who should be the Democratic nominee for President in 2020?
Post by: bbr2314 on April 14, 2019, 12:30:33 AM
But did Germany pay any reparations? I mean, they did that after WWI and it turned out to be a huge mistake.
I demand reparations from Neven!!!! #democratlogic #whytheyalwayslose

(also: I think they actually did pay to survivors of the Holocaust / https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reparations_Agreement_between_Israel_and_West_Germany)
Title: Re: Who should be the Democratic nominee for President in 2020?
Post by: Lurk on April 14, 2019, 12:38:36 AM
Why should I pay for the damages caused by slavery when my ancestors were in Europe at the time

Same reason why Germany pays reparations. Because it's the right thing to do.

You will never get rid of the problem, in this case racism, if you can't even admit wrongdoings and put your money where your mouth is.
I had nothing to do with these wrongdoings (re: slavery).

Not personally no.

But what you (and everyone else, including the last immigrant to arrive in the USA) are doing now is enjoying the capitalist fruits of and the privileges of today built upon the blood sweat and tears of the slavery, racism, murder, abuse, and the disenfranchise of slaves and their African-American descendants. 

You are standing upon the backs of all America's ancestors, and that very much includes the excessive Profits made from white racist criminal pathologically sick Slave Holders that otherwise would never have occurred and helped to build the wealth of the nation in which you live today.

edit of B_ for better clarity ...
You will never get rid of the problem, in this case racism, by remaining a white racist denying the immorality of the past and it's serious impacts upon all the descendants of slaves in the present.

No one can change what happened in the past, but we can all help to rectify some of the damage and the systemically entrenched cumulative disadvantages caused, now, today in the present.
Title: Re: Who should be the Democratic nominee for President in 2020?
Post by: bbr2314 on April 14, 2019, 12:42:28 AM
Why should I pay for the damages caused by slavery when my ancestors were in Europe at the time

Same reason why Germany pays reparations. Because it's the right thing to do.

You will never get rid of the problem, in this case racism, if you can't even admit wrongdoings and put your money where your mouth is.
I had nothing to do with these wrongdoings (re: slavery).

Not personally no.

But what you (and everyone else, including the last immigrant to arrive in the USA) are doing now is enjoying the capitalist fruits of and the privileges of today built upon the blood sweat and tears of the slavery, racism, murder, abuse, and the disenfranchise of slaves and their African-American descendants. 

You are standing upon the backs of all America's ancestors, and that very much includes the excessive Profits made from white racist criminal pathologically sick Slave Holders that otherwise would never have occurred and helped to build the wealth of the nation in which you live today.

edit of B_ for better clarity ...
You will never get rid of the problem, in this case racism, by remaining a white racist denying the immorality of the past and it's serious impacts upon all the descendants of slaves in the present.
Blah blah blah

Throw yourself in a blender to repent or STFU

In meantime I will vote for Trump and you will keep posting these insane rants online where you are shouting into an echo chamber

I love how random posters who have never built anything or made any meaningful contributions to society love dictating how society should function based on their far-flung and literally INSANE belief systems and then they get angry when their moonbat candidates don't get elected and tell everyone else that we are the problem. LOL. You should lurk more and post less.
Title: Re: Who should be the Democratic nominee for President in 2020?
Post by: b_lumenkraft on April 14, 2019, 06:48:49 AM
But did Germany pay any reparations? I mean, they did that after WWI and it turned out to be a huge mistake.

Yes, some historians do make the claim that the burden of WWI reparations on Weimar Germany caused Hitler to rise.

I would say WWI reparations were a non-problem like Trump's caravan was. Hitler made people believe it was a problem.

And yes, reparations after WWII is a thing. >>https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_War_II_reparations#Recipients
Title: Re: Who should be the Democratic nominee for President in 2020?
Post by: b_lumenkraft on April 14, 2019, 06:54:40 AM
edit of B_ for better clarity ...
You will never get rid of the problem, in this case racism, by remaining a white racist denying the immorality of the past and it's serious impacts upon all the descendants of slaves in the present.

Way better than my version. Thanks, Lurk.

Title: Re: Who should be the Democratic nominee for President in 2020?
Post by: bbr2314 on April 14, 2019, 07:52:35 AM
I will not debate the politics behind this any longer but the race itself. I think that the 2016 Republican primary is a much better analogy than the 2016 D primary as the field this year is similarly divergent with many names making a splash.

It should be noted that Jeb Bush was leading the pack at this time in 2016. Rubio and Walker were second and third respectively. And Trump was nowhere near the lead.

By September 1st, Trump was the clear leader of the pack, Ben Carson was running behind him, and Bush was in third place.

Personally I think this lends credence to a Buttigieg candidacy. I am seeing many problems with Joe, who hasn't even announced yet, but is in a similar position to Jeb in 2016 (elder family name brand politician with low energy and with a legacy that can be drawn out and scrutinized/scandalized to death).

Rubio and Sanders are also somewhat similar firebrands of each opposing side of the political aisle, but like Biden, Sanders has a very long rap sheet of "howcouldhehavedonethats" that can be played out in the press. I think that his legacy in the party puts him ahead of Rubio in that respect but the same legacy is potentially damaging when facing the realities of a modern presidential campaign.

Both Carson and Trump were major party outsiders at the start of the race. Cruz ultimately became the closest candidate to derailing Trump after surpassing Carson and Fiorina's blips (again, both outsiders). But Cruz represented the establishment party against Trump (and Kasich at a last ditch effort).

Who are the rising outsiders in the Democrats' field this year? I think Buttigieg is really the only one. O'Rourke could be this year's version of Cruz. A second-place contender who is young enough to look like they are new to Washington's politics, a faux-outsider. I could see Warren's campaign persisting to an undignified end like Kasich's as well. But if recent history is any guide, the current leaders of a crowded pack are unlikely to hold those positions come summer 2019, and the likely favorite is probably an "outsider" polling middle-of-the-pack with rapidly growing name recognition (and my "on-the-ground" anecdotal evidence further confirms this is Buttigieg).

Title: Re: Who should be the Democratic nominee for President in 2020?
Post by: Neven on April 14, 2019, 11:22:28 AM
But did Germany pay any reparations? I mean, they did that after WWI and it turned out to be a huge mistake.

Yes, some historians do make the claim that the burden of WWI reparations on Weimar Germany caused Hitler to rise.

I would say WWI reparations were a non-problem like Trump's caravan was. Hitler made people believe it was a problem.

And yes, reparations after WWII is a thing. >>https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_War_II_reparations#Recipients

Okay, thanks, didn't know this.

But did Germany pay any reparations? I mean, they did that after WWI and it turned out to be a huge mistake.
I demand reparations from Neven!!!! #democratlogic #whytheyalwayslose

I think I agree with you that reparations are bygones, so keep your cool. And thanks for going on topic again.
Title: Re: Who should be the Democratic nominee for President in 2020?
Post by: b_lumenkraft on April 14, 2019, 04:54:17 PM
Does Andrew Yang Want The Most Regressive Tax In The World?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pyjK1wIvRVQ
Title: Re: Who should be the Democratic nominee for President in 2020?
Post by: bbr2314 on April 15, 2019, 01:47:33 AM
Google search trends has very important insight IMO.

https://trends.google.com/trends/explore?date=now%207-d&geo=US&q=Buttigieg,elizabeth%20warren,%2Fm%2F01_gbv,Joe%20Biden,Beto

Buttigieg has surged ahead of all major current contenders for the past week after quickly gaining over the past month. Will it be sustained? My guess is yes.

Title: Re: Who should be the Democratic nominee for President in 2020?
Post by: ritter on April 16, 2019, 05:34:17 PM
Hating on Democrats will elect Republicans.

You mean like Pelosi and others of the corporate dems doing everything possible to marginalize and sideline our young progressive AOC? Like the DNC demanding loyalty? Yeah, that's a great approach. Throw out everything Gen X, Y and millennials care about for more of the same (disaffection with the same was what got us Trump). This is what I criticize my party over--the inability to think about the challenges young people are facing. They are catastrophic and urgent, much more so than Trump's tax returns, Russian intervention and gun control which dominate the agenda. Unchecked climate change will cost billions every year and kill 10s to 100s of thousands. Yet when the Green New Deal is discussed, it's done in the light of ensuring it never sees the light of day to placate who? The money makers? Certainly not the progressives who would drive an agenda focused on a better life and future. It's fucking crumbs, Susan. That's the corporate dem policy. Placate them with crumbs. What ever happened to truth to power?
Title: Re: Who should be the Democratic nominee for President in 2020?
Post by: b_lumenkraft on April 16, 2019, 06:37:12 PM
Hating on people is not good.

Pointing out flaws of the political system, discredit politicians who are corrupted, protest for the issues that are important to you, cut support to those on the wrong way, point out the ones who play unfair, debunk lies, calling the war criminals just that, all this is fine and necessary in the democratic process.
Title: Re: Who should be the Democratic nominee for President in 2020?
Post by: bbr2314 on April 16, 2019, 09:49:54 PM
Hating on Democrats will elect Republicans.

You mean like Pelosi and others of the corporate dems doing everything possible to marginalize and sideline our young progressive AOC? Like the DNC demanding loyalty? Yeah, that's a great approach. Throw out everything Gen X, Y and millennials care about for more of the same (disaffection with the same was what got us Trump). This is what I criticize my party over--the inability to think about the challenges young people are facing. They are catastrophic and urgent, much more so than Trump's tax returns, Russian intervention and gun control which dominate the agenda. Unchecked climate change will cost billions every year and kill 10s to 100s of thousands. Yet when the Green New Deal is discussed, it's done in the light of ensuring it never sees the light of day to placate who? The money makers? Certainly not the progressives who would drive an agenda focused on a better life and future. It's fucking crumbs, Susan. That's the corporate dem policy. Placate them with crumbs. What ever happened to truth to power?
AOC is a brain-dead moron and embracing her politics will LITERALLY be the end of the Democrats.
Title: Re: Who should be the Democratic nominee for President in 2020?
Post by: Neven on April 16, 2019, 11:36:12 PM
Agreed, we need 1000 AOCs. The more diverse the people with principles we have, the better. Everything is better than Corporate Democrats.

BTW, is there snow in your head, bbr, and has spring started early where you live?
Title: Re: Who should be the Democratic nominee for President in 2020?
Post by: bbr2314 on April 17, 2019, 12:39:07 AM
Agreed, we need 1000 AOCs. The more diverse the people with principles we have, the better. Everything is better than Corporate Democrats.

BTW, is there snow in your head, bbr, and has spring started early where you live?
AOC killed Amazon's HQ2 in NYC. She does not understand basic economics. Subsidies were to be given but the revenue generated from 40K new jobs at $100K avg salary a yr would have more than outpaced and given massive new revenue stream to LIC. It was a total disaster and it was largely her fault.
Title: Re: Who should be the Democratic nominee for President in 2020?
Post by: Neven on April 17, 2019, 01:00:20 AM
AOC killed Amazon's HQ2 in NYC. She does not understand basic economics. Subsidies were to be given but the revenue generated from 40K new jobs at $100K avg salary a yr would have more than outpaced and given massive new revenue stream to LIC. It was a total disaster and it was largely her fault.

What I've seen about that story, was that Amazon was playing games, trying to get something for free, and as an added bonus all the development plans of major cities around the US for free. As for AOC's involvement, I don't believe for one second she has as much power as you imply. So, this is basically a smear, which convinces me even more that the US needs 1000 AOCs to really start making a difference.

But AOC is not running for the White House, so please, leave the Fox-smears where you found them, thanks.
Title: Re: Who should be the Democratic nominee for President in 2020?
Post by: b_lumenkraft on April 17, 2019, 06:54:40 AM
AOC killed Amazon's HQ2 in NYC. She does not understand basic economics.

That's such an insanely wrong comment, i can't even...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8X9lO-Xjl3E
Title: Re: Who should be the Democratic nominee for President in 2020?
Post by: sidd on April 17, 2019, 09:32:59 AM
knife fights in the trenches: buttigieg working with anti sanders democrats

"They hate everything our political revolution embodies," wrote Shakir. "They hate Medicare for All, the Green New Deal, breaking up big banks, free public college for all."

" Speaker Nancy Pelosi; Senator Chuck Schumer, the majority leader; former Gov. Terry McAuliffe of Virginia; Mayor Pete Buttigieg of South Bend, Ind., himself a presidential candidate; and the president of the Center for American Progress (CAP), Neera Tanden."

"Splinter's Libby Watson pointed out that a significant component of Sanders' popularity among progressives lies in the fact that he is despised by the corporate donor class and the Democratic establishment."


https://www.commondreams.org/news/2019/04/16/sanders-2020-campaign-gains-steam-corporate-democrats-reportedly-growing

"How, some Democrats are beginning to ask, do they thwart a 70-something candidate from outside the party structure who is immune to intimidation or incentive and wields support from an unwavering base, without simply reinforcing his “the establishment is out to get me”’ message — the same grievance Mr. Trump used to great effect?"

" “There’s a growing realization that Sanders could end up winning this thing, or certainly that he stays in so long that he damages the actual winner,” said David Brock, the liberal organizer, who said he has had discussions with other operatives about an anti-Sanders campaign and believes it should commence “sooner rather than later.” "

"Mr. Gifford, who has gone public in recent days with his dismay over major Democratic fund-raisers remaining on the sidelines, said of Mr. Sanders, “I feel like everything we are doing is playing into his hands.” "

https://www.nytimes.com/2019/04/16/us/politics/bernie-sanders-democratic-party.html

what ever will they do about bernie ?  he went on fox in bethlehem PA. Which is trump country. He killed it. Had the audience cheering. The guy might even make the dem nomination clean on the first round.

sidd

Title: Re: Who should be the Democratic nominee for President in 2020?
Post by: ritter on April 17, 2019, 06:24:05 PM
In many ways, Sanders represents the democratic party's version of Trump. People are so sick of the usual BS politics, they'll toss money and votes at someone outside the norm that has the right talking points. This is panicking the party because they can't control it and it might (will) cost them significant money. Fortunately, Sanders (mostly) says things I support vs. Trump's stump of hatred and protection from the "other."
Title: Re: Who should be the Democratic nominee for President in 2020?
Post by: ritter on April 17, 2019, 06:28:05 PM
Agreed, we need 1000 AOCs. The more diverse the people with principles we have, the better. Everything is better than Corporate Democrats.

Agreed. I don't love everything AOC stands for but I admire her enthusiastic push on political norms and she understands that incrementalism is going to kill us all. She's the sort of candidate I look for when voting these days.

Not convinced Trump is better than Corporate Democrats.... ;)
Title: Re: Who should be the Democratic nominee for President in 2020?
Post by: sidd on April 22, 2019, 11:09:36 PM
Bernie takes on GM:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tSLKEo0x9g0

sidd
Title: Re: Who should be the Democratic nominee for President in 2020?
Post by: sidd on April 23, 2019, 01:50:22 AM
Robinson at current affairs savages Buttigieg: Pete Buttigieg is all about Pete Buttigieg.

"When asked why he wants to hold an office, he talks much more about who he is than what he will do."

"He’s from the Rust Belt so he’s authentic, but he went to Harvard so he’s not a rube, but he’s from a small city so he’s relatable, but he’s gay so he’s got coastal appeal, but he’s a veteran so his sexuality won’t alienate rural people. This is literally the level of political thinking that is involved in the hype around Buttigieg."

"A labor organizer friend of mine has a test he uses for politicians: When they talk, is it all about themselves, or all about the causes they care about? Do they talk incessantly about their Journey and their Homespun Values, or do they talk about people’s needs, the power structure, and how to build a more just world? "

"I actually understand the appeal ... He can say all the words you want to hear ...But the question is always: What do you actually mean by this stuff? ... If a statement can mean many things to many people, what are you sticking up for? What can we expect of you? You can always achieve unity through vapidity, but you can’t achieve anything else."

" it seems as if Buttigieg’s values are the word “values.” "

https://www.currentaffairs.org/2019/03/all-about-pete

sidd
Title: Re: Who should be the Democratic nominee for President in 2020?
Post by: bbr2314 on April 23, 2019, 10:42:41 AM
Buttigieg is surging in polling and has maintained lead in Google search. I think he is looking increasingly likely to be the nominee, he is also the only D I would support.
Title: Re: Who should be the Democratic nominee for President in 2020?
Post by: b_lumenkraft on April 23, 2019, 10:52:49 AM
Out of curiosity Bbr, for what reasons/issues would you support him?
Title: Re: Who should be the Democratic nominee for President in 2020?
Post by: bbr2314 on April 23, 2019, 10:59:41 AM
Out of curiosity Bbr, for what reasons/issues would you support him?
He is a moderate and appears uninterested in tax hikes or other schemes that would damage the economy. In fact his lack of specifics / overall moderate + status quo sensibilities are why I support him, as Sanders + Warren are full of pie in the sky nonsense that (IMO) would also be damaging to the US economy and civil cohesion.

I should note that I did not vote in 2016 as I was content with either outcome. If 2020 is Buttigieg v. Trump, I will probably do the same. If Sanders or Warren win the nomination, I would likely vote for Trump.
Title: Re: Who should be the Democratic nominee for President in 2020?
Post by: b_lumenkraft on April 23, 2019, 11:25:30 AM
Am i right that you would describe yourself as a right-leaning centrist, Bbr?

May i ask what the 'pie in the sky nonsense' is you are opposing so badly and why it wouldn't work for the US?

Not asking for an essay of you but a couple of concrete points perhaps.
Title: Re: Who should be the Democratic nominee for President in 2020?
Post by: b_lumenkraft on April 23, 2019, 05:39:36 PM
The Living Dead Third Way Conspires To Stop Bernie?

How centrism is an absolute disaster for society.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X0xX6hVU9sQ
Title: Re: Who should be the Democratic nominee for President in 2020?
Post by: bbr2314 on April 23, 2019, 08:43:24 PM
Am i right that you would describe yourself as a right-leaning centrist, Bbr?

May i ask what the 'pie in the sky nonsense' is you are opposing so badly and why it wouldn't work for the US?

Not asking for an essay of you but a couple of concrete points perhaps.
Anything "free" is never "free", Warren's college debt forgiveness plan is an insult to the people who actually paid for college, as well as the people who have paid off their loans, as well as the people who didn't go to college because they couldn't afford it. It is the most juvenile and divisive form of pandering I have seen yet this election cycle.

Bernie is similarly campaigning on "free" nonsense even if the specifics aren't as hashed out as Warren's lies.

I think national healthcare should be available for anyone with a BMI under 30. The vast majority of cost overruns are due to a small minority of morbidly obese patients who suck up an exceedingly huge percentage of resources. So perhaps in that single regard I am a "conditional" socialist.

Otherwise I am staunchly against "big government" as I find that government's main purpose is to perpetuate and expand its own existence rather than to benefit the people which it purportedly serves. I don't care too much about social issues, IMO they are only useful for pandering to plebes without committing to any actual meaningful issues (i.e. anything to do with taxes).

I voted Obama in 2008 but have not voted since then. I would say my politics have continued drifting rightward since then and I am probably more right-wing than centrist-right but I have no problem with either label.
Title: Re: Who should be the Democratic nominee for President in 2020?
Post by: b_lumenkraft on April 23, 2019, 09:21:11 PM
Thank you Bbr for your honest answer.

I can't help to drop some sarcasm here: Why cure cancer? Isn't that an insult on anyone who ever died of cancer?

But on a serious note. You don't understand the free part in Bernie's HC proposal. It is free of charge at the point of service meaning no copays, no deductibles, no hidden costs. You chose the doc and that's it. Of course, you pay for the insurance. Only, that the insurance is one big pool in this case. Anyone knowing just a little bit about insurances will tell you, the bigger the pool the better risk assessment wise. This is how it's done everywhere on the planet and it would also work in the US. You will end up paying half (or even less). You would pay it in taxes, not to a private insurance company.

So what's so 'big government' in pooling risks and collecting money? That's a task the government does all the time in any aspect of life even in the US and even accepted in conservative circles. Why is it so bad in this special case?
Title: Re: Who should be the Democratic nominee for President in 2020?
Post by: b_lumenkraft on April 23, 2019, 09:21:53 PM
Why Bernie Sanders is Democrats' Best 2020 Candidate to Defeat Donald Trump

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M3S-kyc8aKs
Title: Re: Who should be the Democratic nominee for President in 2020?
Post by: Lurk on April 24, 2019, 05:34:32 AM
Otherwise I am staunchly against "big government" as I find that government's main purpose is to perpetuate and expand its own existence rather than to benefit the people which it purportedly serves.

This is a deeply entrenched social meme in American culture. It's quite unique in the civilised world and has been for centuries. Because it is deeply believed in and accepted by such a large percentage of society it's generally accepted as such an obvious truth as to be undeniable to 'anyone with a brain'.

As such anyone who might quote a few facts or history or relevant comparisons will be subsequently dispatched as a moron without a brain. Thus it's persisted for centuries and has not changed.

The Americans learn this default "socially engrained meme" from the moment they are sitting on their mothers knee for it to be reconditioned into them at church, at school, at work, on the TV and it's reinforced throughout their life. Subsequently to poison their own children's minds and successfully dumb them down too.

It's a myth and it's a social, cultural lie a majority still believe is true. Many are still living in the 1770s where any moment now a Red Coat will be bursting through your homestead door looking for insurgency materials against the King.

It's one of the most amazing but fraudulent social constructs/beliefs in the whole world. It's as persistent a myth as young earth creationism, the denial of evolution, and the denial of climate science is in America ... being the global the capital of such beliefs btw.

And the people who believe in such tripe are not going away anytime soon. They are highly motivated voters too. Their whole world views and their personal IDENTITY depends on the truth of these myths, these lies.
Title: Re: Who should be the Democratic nominee for President in 2020?
Post by: bbr2314 on April 24, 2019, 05:44:56 AM
Otherwise I am staunchly against "big government" as I find that government's main purpose is to perpetuate and expand its own existence rather than to benefit the people which it purportedly serves.

This is a deeply entrenched social meme in American culture. It's quite unique in the civilised world and has been for centuries. Because it is deeply believed in and accepted by such a large percentage of society it's generally accepted as such an obvious truth as to be undeniable to 'anyone with a brain'.

As such anyone who might quote a few facts or history or relevant comparisons will be subsequently dispatched as a moron without a brain. Thus it's persisted for centuries and has not changed.

The Americans learn this default "socially engrained meme" from the moment they are sitting on their mothers knee for it to be reconditioned into them at church, at school, at work, on the TV and it's reinforced throughout their life. Subsequently to poison their own children's minds and successfully dumb them down too.

It's a myth and it's a social, cultural lie a majority still believe is true. Many are still living in the 1770s where any moment now a Red Coat will be bursting through your homestead door looking for insurgency materials against the King.

It's one of the most amazing but fraudulent social constructs/beliefs in the whole world. It's as persistent a myth as young earth creationism, the denial of evolution, and the denial of climate science is in America ... being the global the capital of such beliefs btw.

And the people who believe in such tripe are not going away anytime soon. They are highly motivated voters too. Their whole world views and their personal IDENTITY depends on the truth of these myths, these lies.

OK great, keep losing elections, it is what your people do best! ;)

And you can go and move to China if you are so fond of truly big government.

Also: I was raised in an exceedingly liberal environment that included substantial childhood time abroad. I am not a "meat and potatoes" American, and as I mentioned, I do indeed support healthcare for all, and I voted for Obama in 2008. If you think making personal attacks against anyone who isn't where Sanders is on the political spectrum is an effective strategy for winning people over... again, it explains why you keep losing.  ;D
Title: Re: Who should be the Democratic nominee for President in 2020?
Post by: Lurk on April 24, 2019, 05:57:20 AM
If Americans wish to spend three times as much for health care than comparable advanced economies do (with better outcomes) then more power to them. It's their right to keep doing so, so let them. Because it's pathological to attempt to tell stupid they're stupid and wasting their money.

They are already spending over $1 trillion a year on national security (which includes the DoD budget of $722 billion). Let them spend $2 trillion if they want to keep wasting their money. :D
Title: Re: Who should be the Democratic nominee for President in 2020?
Post by: Lurk on April 24, 2019, 05:58:29 AM
blah blah blah

Always missing the mark. A Gold Star for consistency in being totally confused!
Title: Re: Who should be the Democratic nominee for President in 2020?
Post by: Lurk on April 24, 2019, 06:07:20 AM
I do indeed support healthcare for all

Except you do not.

Nor do you support any kind of Medicare for All / Universal coverage arrangement in America (as it exists in every other civilised nation be they wealthy or not).

This is abundantly clear and obvious. You're not alone either.
Title: Re: Who should be the Democratic nominee for President in 2020?
Post by: bbr2314 on April 24, 2019, 06:39:58 AM
I do indeed support healthcare for all

Except you do not.

Nor do you support any kind of Medicare for All / Universal coverage arrangement in America (as it exists in every other civilised nation be they wealthy or not).

This is abundantly clear and obvious. You're not alone either.

Technically you are correct, I support healthcare for everyone with a BMI under 30, maybe that doesn't include you -- I wouldn't be surprised. Exercise creates endorphins and endorphins make you happy, and you clearly are not happy.

PS, your "dream" society where everyone can be morbidly obese and everything is bought and paid for by the government already exists, it was depicted wonderfully in the Pixar film "Wall-E"!

Unfortunately it came with the side effect of an Earth that was almost entirely devoid of any life whatsoever, so, you know, there's that little trade-off to be had.
Title: Re: Who should be the Democratic nominee for President in 2020?
Post by: Lurk on April 24, 2019, 11:07:53 AM
American health care, be it the dreams, the reality, or what's said by politicians or whoever has been a long joke to me.

Looka here, this is Bernie Sanders' health care "policy"
https://berniesanders.com/issues/health-care-for-all/

That ain't a Policy! That's a bullshit joke excuse for a Policy. It's total crap.

No nation with a universal style health care coverage has ever had, nor ever gone to an election with a non-Policy like that. None of them. Not ever anywhere else on the planet except in America. It's why America is such a joke and a waste of time and space to everyojne on the planet who know better.

Where is TRump's "health care Policy"? He doesn;t have one either. Where is the Republican Party's HC POlicy? They don;t have one either. Where is the Democrat party's HC POlicy ... it;s no where to be seen and never been seen for decades. It doesn;t exist.

Barack Obama did not have a HC POlicy either.

The ony thing Americans ever get are swanky 3 word slogans like "Medicare for All".

There's never any meat on the bones. There's no list of the actions and changes that would take place or when.
There's no economic analysis of those changes.
There's never any Tax Reform details that must accompany such HC changes.
There's no GDP numbers. No employment effects numbers. No qualifications of the benefits to individuals and groups of people across the nation be that in either costs or access or health standards.
There's not  word about how employees will be compensated in their wages should employer paid health care be removed as an option.
No information of the increased taxes and Govt revenues from employers who no longer need to pay for employee HC.

What you get is total silence except for the hysterical LIES & MYTHS & SOPHISTRY that rules the nation.

What you get from everyone about Health Care is NOTHING AT ALL .... not a single fact!

No mindful intelligent FACT BASED analysis by expert academics (nothing from Govt Public Servants in the IRS, Health, Economics Depts.) of how to do it, how much it would cost Govt, how much it would SAVE the Govt and Taxpayers long term, how much people and businesses would save by dropping running a corrupt boondoggle that costs 18% of GDP going own to 6% of GDP butt where very single person was covered and good obtain decent care, especially emergency accident care and everyday illnesses.

What you get in America instead is total BULLSHIT 24/7/365 - what you get on forums from Americans be they left right repubs greens or democrats is total BULLSHIT about "health care" in America and how to fix it.

Never-ending Clueless Idiocy. Welcome to America - Home to the stupidest dumbest people on this Earth. It makes no difference whether Trump or Bernie is the President - none whatsoever.

Have at it! :D
Title: Re: Who should be the Democratic nominee for President in 2020?
Post by: Neven on April 24, 2019, 11:15:59 AM
bbr, do you have any idea how much profits those stupid, selfish obese people are generating? If you want to solve that (instead of the euthanasia you are proposing), you need to change the entire system, and to change a system, you need a government.

If the alternative to Big Government is Big Corporation, you're not going to solve anything. In fact, something worse happens: Big Government gets usurped by Big Corporation, which is what has happened in the US. That's a form of fascism. Like Lurk says, with such texts, you are only displaying your conditioned ignorance.

Don't expect change from the GOP or Corporate Democrats, they are all servants of concentrated wealth. For now, only Bernie Sanders is pointing in the right direction, but I agree it will take an entire movement to actually get there, and make sure the talk is turned into walk. I don't care what label people want to attach to that. I only care about solving AGW (and all the other global problems).

The only way forward is via the Democratic Party, but only if the progressive wing prevails.
Title: Re: Who should be the Democratic nominee for President in 2020?
Post by: b_lumenkraft on April 24, 2019, 11:25:57 AM
Person 1: I really want healthcare for all but not for the ones eating meat.
Person 2: I really want healthcare for all but not for the obese.
Person 3: I really want healthcare for all but not for the ones doing bungee jumping.
Person 4: I really want healthcare for all but not for the brown and black people.
etc
etc
etc

Bbr, do you understand why this can't be the way how you make laws?

It is stunning to me that a guy who's obviously capable of understanding very complex systems fails so hard in understanding basic politics.
Title: Re: Who should be the Democratic nominee for President in 2020?
Post by: Lurk on April 24, 2019, 12:11:59 PM
An initial consultation with a GP doctor will cost in the range of $100 – $200 in the USA.

OK, so how much will Medicare for All pay those Doctors for a 10-15 minute consultation?

$200? No. $150? No. $100? Probably no. Maybe more like $75 if they are lucky.

How many GP Doctors in the USA are going to accept $75 or less? How many clinics and hospitals will accept that fee payment?
 
The Medicare schedule in Australia NZ will pay the doctor about $39 = $30 USD

Where are all the details of the medical services price schedules that a Medicare for All system will pay out to Doctors, specialists, hospitals and drug companies?

How many have agreed to accept those fee payments for services? Oh that'd be none.

Apparently some democrats incl Bernie have said Private Health insurance will no longer be required. Really? How so. My Sinai Hospital suddenly going to become a Public Hospital is it?  Charging public rates?

Let's say you broke your ankle really badly and show up at a US hospital late in the afternoon on a Friday. How will the new USA Medicare for All system handle that?

(How does the present system work even more interesting to answer that?) 


In Australia this is what typically happens -  turn up at a public hospital funded by Medicare and the State Govt, seen by a nurse within 3 minutes, seen by the admissions doctor within 15 minutes, admitted to hospital within 30 minutes in the emergency dept., paperwork and all, within 1 hour later all major medical tests done incl X-rays and safety checks for surgery, and seen by the anaesthetists on duty for planning purposes. Stay overnight, in surgery full anaesthetic by noon the next day, ankle fixed, recovery, with ongoing checks overnight. Leave hospital the next day after surgery with a pouch of medicine and out patient follow-up care all arranged.... and a doctors medical certificate for work purposes.

Total Cost to Patient = Zero.
Follow-up care including one's own local GP and Physcial Therapy costs = Zero. Zip Nada!

Personal cost to patient annually is their normal Taxes plus a 1.25% Medicare Levy of their Gross Income over and above $22,000 per annum.

Bernie, the rest of Democrats and the people calling for Medicare for All in the USA don't have a hope in hell.

None!
Title: Re: Who should be the Democratic nominee for President in 2020?
Post by: Lurk on April 24, 2019, 12:31:27 PM
Australian minimum wage $719.20 a week (38 hour week)

Annual Taxable income $37,440
0 – $18,200  Income Tax = Nil
$18,201 – $37,000 Income tax = 19% = $3,861

Medicare Levy $462 / year
iow that's the Insurance cost for Universal Health Care coverage for a minimum wage earner (deducted from their pay weekly along with the basic income taxes.)

All Prescription medicines under $28 each if working.
$6 if on welfare
to a maximum of $500 per person per year then 100% Free.

Everyone on some form or part welfare payment automatically covered free of charge.
All children automatically covered from birth irrespective of Parents income status.

The USA wouldn't know where to begin to introduce a Universal health care system. They couldn't even write up a proper Policy for one, let alone draft Laws to accomplish such a reform.

Incapable of having a sane rational respectful factual evidence-based discussion about one either. There's the truth for you.
Title: Re: Who should be the Democratic nominee for President in 2020?
Post by: SteveMDFP on April 24, 2019, 12:38:43 PM
An initial consultation with a GP doctor will cost in the range of $100 – $200 in the USA.

OK, so how much will Medicare for All pay those Doctors for a 10-15 minute consultation?

$200? No. $150? No. $100? Probably no. Maybe more like $75 if they are lucky.

How many GP Doctors in the USA are going to accept $75 or less? How many clinics and hospitals will accept that fee payment?
 
The Medicare schedule in Australia NZ will pay the doctor about $39 = $30 USD

Where are all the details of the medical services price schedules that a Medicare for All system will pay out to Doctors, specialists, hospitals and drug companies?

How many have agreed to accept those fee payments for services? Oh that'd be none.

Apparently some democrats incl Bernie have said Private Health insurance will no longer be required. Really? How so. My Sinai Hospital suddenly going to become a Public Hospital is it?  Charging public rates?

Let's say you broke your ankle really badly and show up at a US hospital late in the afternoon on a Friday. How will the new USA Medicare for All system handle that?

(How does the present system work even more interesting to answer that?) 


In Australia this is what typically happens -  turn up at a public hospital funded by Medicare and the State Govt, seen by a nurse within 3 minutes, seen by the admissions doctor within 15 minutes, admitted to hospital within 30 minutes in the emergency dept., paperwork and all, within 1 hour later all major medical tests done incl X-rays and safety checks for surgery, and seen by the anaesthetists on duty for planning purposes. Stay overnight, in surgery full anaesthetic by noon the next day, ankle fixed, recovery, with ongoing checks overnight. Leave hospital the next day after surgery with a pouch of medicine and out patient follow-up care all arranged.... and a doctors medical certificate for work purposes.

Total Cost to Patient = Zero.
Follow-up care including one's own local GP and Physcial Therapy costs = Zero. Zip Nada!

Personal cost to patient annually is their normal Taxes plus a 1.25% Medicare Levy of their Gross Income over and above $22,000 per annum.

Bernie, the rest of Democrats and the people calling for Medicare for All in the USA don't have a hope in hell.

None!

Totally agree.  Cost controls of some form are needed most. Without that, no system can work within a sane budget.    At most steps in health care, costs are created to shift money to shareholders.  The insurers are *not* the primary problem.  Still plenty of non-profit insurers around (many BC/BS affiliates remain non-profit).  Non-profit insurers are *unable* to offer coverage at reasonable costs.

Drug companies and device makers top the list of exorbitant costs.  Without a system to force them to negotiate a global price in the US market (or else sell nothing to anyone), they'll continue to make health care unaffordable, regardless of whose pocket the money comes from.

A politician could win popular votes here, but it would be risky.  These interests have powerful lobbies and huge PR budgets.  They almost derailed the modest reforms of the Affordable Care Act.  Still, Americans are totally fed up with healthcare that might be otherwise available, but results in many being unable to take needed medication.
Title: Re: Who should be the Democratic nominee for President in 2020?
Post by: Klondike Kat on April 24, 2019, 03:37:56 PM
By most accounts, medical costs started soaring, once insurance companies became intermediaries.  Costs were lower when it was just between the doctor and the patient.  Once people figured out that they could pay one annual fee, and then receive unlimited care, Pandora's box was opened.  The first step to counter rising costs was to institute a deductible.  This stemmed the rise somewhat, as people were reluctant to seek care, until the deductible was met.  But once that was met, no holds barred.  People tended to lump medical care into one calendar year to take advantage of the system.  Will a government provided system work better?  You knows?  The track record of the government providing improved services at reduced costs is not encouraging.
Title: Re: Who should be the Democratic nominee for President in 2020?
Post by: Neven on April 24, 2019, 04:01:38 PM
Quote
The track record of the government providing improved services at reduced costs is not encouraging.

Isn't this one of the conditioned myths surrounding Medicare for all? It sounds a bit like Corporate Democrat Dianne Feinstein: : If this means a government take-over of healthcare, I'm not there yet.

The government isn't providing any services. It's not taking over hospitals, etc.

The richest country in the history of the world, but a large percentage of the population either doesn't have access to health care, or goes bankrupt when they get ill.  ::)
Title: Re: Who should be the Democratic nominee for President in 2020?
Post by: Lurk on April 24, 2019, 05:48:33 PM
By most accounts, medical costs started soaring, once insurance companies became intermediaries.  Costs were lower when it was just between the doctor and the patient.  Once people figured out that they could pay one annual fee, and then receive unlimited care, Pandora's box was opened.  The first step to counter rising costs was to institute a deductible.  This stemmed the rise somewhat, as people were reluctant to seek care, until the deductible was met.  But once that was met, no holds barred.  People tended to lump medical care into one calendar year to take advantage of the system.  Will a government provided system work better?  You knows?  The track record of the government providing improved services at reduced costs is not encouraging.

This comment, and the lack of knowledge and the endlessly repeated fake myths it displays, is a really good example of why the USA will never ever get a universal health care insurance system for all. Even talking about it is impossible. There is no shared ground in which an agreed history of events, genuine global evidence, actual financial numbers, and facts can play their proper role.

As mentioned above, even Bernie cannot articulate a decent Policy about it beyond a few one liners on his website and a three word slogan. It's just another example of the dysfunctional American political system and why it's in such a mess and imho unfixable. 
Title: Re: Who should be the Democratic nominee for President in 2020?
Post by: Lurk on April 25, 2019, 03:43:25 AM
There's nothing personal in the above. I know of one example story of a man in arkansas who broke his ankle. He had a car accident, totalled his car and had to walk / drag himself home. Had no health care plan and a several months later he died from his injuries. Died from a broken ankle. Ain't that sweet?

Rather than address such realities in a mature grown up rational and factual manner instead what comes for "discussions" about US lack of Health Care are vague generalities. Mythical (ie fake) generalities. Pseudo discussions about the efficacy of big bad "Government" even though in the USA they claim the Govt is of, for and BY the people. Yeah right. Sure it is when you're "dreaming".

People argue about lies. People argue about their false beliefs fed to them by politicians and the media and their parents and their dishonest biased and very often untrue history books. It's par for the course. Look what came from Clinton's great project in 93, fell flat on it's face, because both sides of US politics are a bunch of incompetents and fools.... except when it comes to serving their donor class of class, then they are brilliant actors.

It's par for the course of course. Be it military adventurism, regime change everywhere but inside the USA, manipulative geopolitics, corrupt bs trade deals, inaction on climate change, bailing out of the Paris agreement, oil and gas fracking that will ultimately destroy the land for generations.

Hey look over there we have to save those poor Venezuelans, it's a humanitarian disaster and they are run by a socialist dictator who is evil as sin. America is a joke and has been for decades!

There's no point in arguing with drunks, addicts, religious fanatics, or fools. Let them have it. Let them do what they want. And let them believe what they want and reap their just rewards, is what I say. I am not here to "save America" or help them see the light of reason and common sense, oh no, I am simply speak to alert those outside it to stop worrying about it or believing one day it might change.

No, you're on your own, your nation and the rest are on your own so you may as well start acting like it and trying to do whatever positive thing you can about AGW/CC (eg Extinction Rebellion) and juts forget about the USA entirely.  You will never be able to satisfy their delusional beliefs about reality. Don't even try. Health Care is a lightening rod to see how crazy and disconnected from reality they truly are. :D
Title: Re: Who should be the Democratic nominee for President in 2020?
Post by: Lurk on April 25, 2019, 06:43:24 AM
Let's see how things were 8 Presidential elections ago and then think about how much things have improved since then ....

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=em-eljd5y64 
Title: Re: Who should be the Democratic nominee for President in 2020?
Post by: Lurk on April 25, 2019, 11:49:34 AM
A quote from the above video - February 20th 1988 Noam Chomsky at FAIR

Quote
"Let me finally say that these 'impressive achievements' of the American free press is by no means unprecedented.

The Press has helped in the past to undermine and destroy peace agreements and accords by 'shaping them' into an instrument of U.S. Policy.

What we are discussing here is systematic institutional behaviour. It's on a par with the committent of Corporations to maximising profit and market share.

That's why the pattern is so pervasive.

That's why it's going to remain so in essence, until the society itself undergoes a significant degree of Democratisation."

Still waiting for that to happen, hey? Don't hold your breath unless you're an American. Then, no great loss to the world. ;)