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Off-topic => The rest => Topic started by: Buddy on March 06, 2018, 02:53:39 PM

Title: The Media: Examples of Good AND Bad Journalism
Post by: Buddy on March 06, 2018, 02:53:39 PM
Since many people like to talk about "the Mainstream Media", and "Conservative Media", and "Fake News", and "other media" (like Jimmy Dore).   This thread is your opportunity to do so.  The focus on this thread is on how the media is covering RussiaGate:  Who is lying....who is blatantly biased (one way or the other)..... and who is doing a good job of covering RussiaGate.  In short....show examples of GOOD JOURNALISM and BAD JOURNALISM.

MSNBC, FOX, ABC, NBC, CBS, RT, Jimmy Dore, etc.

To quote Neven....."have at it."

Title: Re: RussiaGate And The Media: Examples of Good AND Bad Journalism
Post by: Buddy on March 06, 2018, 04:02:00 PM
As some of you begin to post items to this thread....either examples of GOOD JOURNALISM or BAD..... I hope you all understand that psychology can play a big part in journalism, as well as "fake journalism."

Here is an example of "fake light".  It happens to be a very cool application....is what I would call a "good fake sunlight".  Now... I'm NOT saying that there are ANY examples of "good fake news" (I don't believe there are).  News is news....and is based on FACTS and TRUTH.

But if you watch the short video clip below..... let it remind you that your brain CAN be fooled by "fake news" (in EITHER direction.... "conservative" or "liberal").

We are bombarded by things in the media that are MEANT to change our "psychological view point" each and every day.  What items to buy....what candidate to support.... what policy is good or bad.

So when you watch ANY MEDIA....you should ALWAYS watch with a skeptical eye.... and ask yourself "who is BEHIND the media", and ARE THERE FACTS that support what the media piece is trying to push?

Media can serve a VALUABLE service to citizens of any country.  But only if it is TRUTHFUL.  And NEWS MEDIA (I believe) has a SPECIAL OBLIGATION to always LOOK FOR THE TRUTH.

So take a look at this short clip of a "sunny day".....and keep in mind that your mind CAN be fooled....and that there are forces out there that are trying to do so (whether they be political, or economic, or social).

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WUJnHLHXW0c
Title: Re: RussiaGate And The Media: Examples of Good AND Bad Journalism
Post by: Neven on March 06, 2018, 04:05:24 PM
Good thread.

Jimmy Dore is a fervent believer in Trump-Russia corruption (everybody does it), but he is bothered by all the dangerous stuff Russiagate brings with it, and all the stuff that isn't talked about in the media, like US meddling in other countries, meddling by other countries in the US besides Russia, meddling by US groups in the US.

That said, Dore occasionally makes factual mistakes and there can be flaws in his logic, and I'll report them when I see them. Nevertheless, he is strong when it comes to core issues and the systemic problems the US faces.

I don't have time to watch mainstream US media (I also don't own a TV), so I'd be very happy to see examples of bad journalism.

PS Can we post past examples of bad journalism wrt Russiagate, or only the stuff that happens from now on?
Title: Re: RussiaGate And The Media: Examples of Good AND Bad Journalism
Post by: Neven on March 06, 2018, 04:08:35 PM
Quote
and ask yourself "who is BEHIND the media"

Okay, who is behind US mainstream media outlets? Who owns them, and how does that affect their reporting?
Title: Re: RussiaGate And The Media: Examples of Good AND Bad Journalism
Post by: sidd on March 06, 2018, 09:53:47 PM
A friend, now passed, once remarked: "Don't bother changing the channel. They own all the channels"

Sinclair is big. And Wikipedia reports:

"In television, the vast majority of broadcast and basic cable networks, over a hundred in all, are controlled by eight corporations: 21st Century Fox (the Fox family of channels), The Walt Disney Company (which includes the ABC, ESPN and Disney brands), National Amusements (which includes CBS Corporation and Viacom), Comcast (which includes the NBC brands), Time Warner, Discovery Communications, E. W. Scripps Company, Cablevision, or some combination thereof."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Concentration_of_media_ownership

sidd
Title: Re: RussiaGate And The Media: Examples of Good AND Bad Journalism
Post by: sidd on March 07, 2018, 12:14:14 AM
Sinclair Charter merger:

http://www.truth-out.org/opinion/item/43698-don-t-be-fooled-by-sinclair-s-shell-games

sidd
Title: Re: RussiaGate And The Media: Examples of Good AND Bad Journalism
Post by: Buddy on March 07, 2018, 02:01:16 PM
Chris Hayes (MSNBC).  Here is the clip...w/o commercials.  There are two important pieces to it:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6bmx6ekIa9s

1)  At 13:43 - 18:45 (5 minutes):  Discusses the new cooperating witness in the Mueller investigation (George Nader).  Pay special attention to the whole thing...but especially the last couple of minutes. 

Below is a paragraph from Mark Mazetti's article in the NY Times:

Quote
Mr. Nader represented the crown prince in the three-way conversation in the Seychelles, at a hotel overlooking in the Indian Ocean, in the days before Mr. Trump took office. At the meeting, Emirati officials believed Mr. Prince was speaking for the Trump transition team, and a Russian fund manager, Kirill Dmitriev, represented Mr. Putin, according to several people familiar with the meeting. Mr. Nader, who grew close later to several advisers in the Trump White House, had once worked as a consultant to Blackwater, a private security firm now known as Academi. Mr. Nader introduced his former employer to the Russian.

https://www.nytimes.com/2018/03/06/us/politics/george-nader-special-counsel-mueller-cooperating-seychelles.html

And Chris wraps up what was going on at the time in Trump world... at 18:00 - 18:30.  Listen to that a couple of times... 

2)  At 18:30 - 24:20 (6 minutes):  Jane Mayer of the New Yorker...discusses her piece in the New Yorker about Christopher Steele and the so called dossier (note:  It isn't actually a dossier...it is a collection of pieces that Steele put together over time....in an attempt to see how they fit together).  Steele's conclusion was that the US election was under siege by the Russians.

 
Title: Re: RussiaGate And The Media: Examples of Good AND Bad Journalism
Post by: Neven on March 07, 2018, 04:44:18 PM
I liked the discussion towards the end (from 31:30 onwards) because it was about strategy. Especially the African-American lady said some sensible things.

How much time of total broadcasting time does Hayes spend on Russiagate?
Title: Re: RussiaGate And The Media: Examples of Good AND Bad Journalism
Post by: Buddy on March 07, 2018, 04:55:19 PM
Quote
How much time of total broadcasting time does Hayes spend on Russiagate?

I have no idea.  I usually don't watch his show.
Title: Re: RussiaGate And The Media: Examples of Good AND Bad Journalism
Post by: Jim Pettit on March 07, 2018, 05:39:31 PM
I liked the discussion towards the end (from 31:30 onwards) because it was about strategy. Especially the African-American lady said some sensible things.

How much time of total broadcasting time does Hayes spend on Russiagate?

It varies widely. If there are multiple breaking stories related to Trump, Hayes might spend the bulk of the broadcast on the current President's potential crimes. Other times, Russiagate may barely get a mention. Hayes (like Maddow) will often spend an hour doing just one or two long-form, deep dive pieces into, say, the Flint water crisis, or Chicago gun deaths, or racism, or Republican hatred of the ACA, or what have you. Other times there'll be major news that breaks during his show, and he has no choice but to cover it. But if you were asking for a current average, I'd say roughly 30% of his time is spent on what could be considered 'Russiagate": Trump's long history of corrupt practices, his long history with Russia, his love affair with brutal authoritarians, his profound ignorance of the Constitution, the sudden and recordbreaking departure of so many members of his staff, GOP attempts to thwart justice by painting the Steele reports as a Clinton invention (they weren't), Mueller's widening investigation, what is and is not likely to happen when all is said and done, the coming "Blue Wave" precipitated by increasing American anger toward Trump and the Trump GOP, and so on, and so on, and so on. He *doesn't* spend much time berating Putin for meddling; he acknowledges it, and says it's to be expected, and that our hands are not clean in that regard, and it would be hypocritical to pretend otherwise. But he *does* insist on getting to the ultimate truth: what did Trump know, and when did he know it.

Millions of us are asking those same questions.
Title: Re: RussiaGate And The Media: Examples of Good AND Bad Journalism
Post by: Martin Gisser on March 07, 2018, 06:16:00 PM
I often wonder why nobody here seems to watch https://www.democracynow.org/ Methinks this is THE channel for U.S. progressives -- "Russia" is only topic no. 12 on their list. :) Amy Goodman comes right next to Rachel Maddow on top my favorite U.S. journalists list.

Last major piece:
https://www.democracynow.org/2018/2/23/masha_gessen_did_a_russian_troll
Title: Re: RussiaGate And The Media: Examples of Good AND Bad Journalism
Post by: Neven on March 07, 2018, 09:04:22 PM
I often wonder why nobody here seems to watch https://www.democracynow.org/ Methinks this is THE channel for U.S. progressives -- "Russia" is only topic no. 12 on their list. :) Amy Goodman comes right next to Rachel Maddow on top my favorite U.S. journalists list.

Last major piece:
https://www.democracynow.org/2018/2/23/masha_gessen_did_a_russian_troll

Yes, Amy Goodman is still awesome. I watch Democracy Now! occasionally when YouTube recommends it, or I'm looking for something and they come up in the search. But I've subscribed to them now, so will watch more often.

Thanks for the link to that video. It's one of the best things I've seen in recent weeks.

Edit: I watched the video with Masha Gessen on YouTube first, assuming it was the same as on the website, but there was more on the website, even better than the stuff on YouTube. Masha Gessen actually posits a similar argument to mine that Russiagate detracts from so many other discussions that could be had, while at the same time denouncing Putin. Amazing. Did you link to this stuff in the Russiagate thread? I can't believe I hadn't seen it.

I immediately donated $20.  ;)
Title: Re: RussiaGate And The Media: Examples of Good AND Bad Journalism
Post by: TerryM on March 08, 2018, 12:13:01 AM
Amy is often linked to from ZeroHedge, so I've caught more than a few of her shows. The Masha Gessen segments are particularly powerful because of Gessen's impeccable credentials a harsh critic of Putin, and Putin's Russia.


Some decades ago LBJ said something to the tune of, "Oh No! if we've lost Walter Cronkite, we've lost the whole country".
When Russiagate has lost as influential a Putin-Phobe as Masha Gessen, it may be time to draw up evacuation plans for the embassy.


Terry
edit - I'd bookmarked the Buff Bernie cartoon and an article from ZeroHedge about the same, but decided not to post it here. ZeroHedge being such a dangerous sight and all that.
Title: Re: RussiaGate And The Media: Examples of Good AND Bad Journalism
Post by: Buddy on March 08, 2018, 01:22:16 PM
I happen to have ties to sources inside the top intelligence gathering group for Traitor Don's administration.  So I will post information from this source that Donnie gets his intelligence from... PLEASE don't share this....as this is a TOP SECRET SOURCE:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C54FxCuoKCQ

FOX and FRIENDS...March 08 LEAD topics, in order:

1)  Jeff Sessions cracking down on "Sanctuary State of California":  through 5:30
2)  DOJ and FBI Surveillance abuses :  Trey Goudy through...10:30
3)  Coverage of Trump by media is Negative:  through 11:27
     I wonder if that had anything to do with doing an absolutely awful job?  :o

For anyone tired of RussiaGate coverage.....THIS IS YOUR CHANNEL.  ABSOLUTELY ZERO.

I post this for those that don't watch much US media....and wonder HOW IN THE WORLD COULD SOMEONE THINK DONNIE IS DOING A GOOD JOB? 

This...is your answer.   It really is pretty awful.   I would be embarrassed to have any part of this if I were in the journalism business.   But this is what Donnie watches every day....so he can feel good about himself I guess.
Title: Re: RussiaGate And The Media: Examples of Good AND Bad Journalism
Post by: Buddy on March 08, 2018, 01:31:36 PM
And...I have it from a good source of the guy in the oval office....that it is Russian collusion WITH HILLARY CLINTON that is the REAL STORY.  Boy....I feel like I've been duped.  That main stream media had it all wrong... it isn't Donnie, it is Hillary.  ;)

13 minute clip of Sean Hannity:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KjuUjH-vm3Y

OK....all kidding aside.  Imagine if you were to actually LISTEN to this nonsense day in and day out.  After a while... you might even start to believe it.  And they do.  This is the brainwashing of Americans.


Title: Re: RussiaGate And The Media: Examples of Good AND Bad Journalism
Post by: idunno on March 08, 2018, 01:56:32 PM
This is, by far, the best thing I have read on Russiagate...

https://www.lrb.co.uk/v40/n01/jackson-lears/what-we-dont-talk-about-when-we-talk-about-russian-hacking
Title: Re: RussiaGate And The Media: Examples of Good AND Bad Journalism
Post by: Martin Gisser on March 08, 2018, 03:10:46 PM
This is, by far, the best thing I have read on Russiagate...

https://www.lrb.co.uk/v40/n01/jackson-lears/what-we-dont-talk-about-when-we-talk-about-russian-hacking
Sorry, I find this one of the worst well-meaning pieces, judging from the beginning (and then I stopped).
Quote
For about a week after the election, pundits discussed the possibility of a more capacious Democratic strategy. It appeared that the party might learn something from Clinton’s defeat. Then everything changed.

A story that had circulated during the campaign without much effect resurfaced: it involved the charge that Russian operatives had hacked into the servers of the Democratic National Committee
1) He hasn't paid attention before the election.
2) Vastly oversimplifying. (Russian "meddling" was at least 3-pronged: Hack, trolls, mafia money. And there is the known unknown of direct contacts, if not kompromat.  (I will write a comment on Einstein's Scholium to Occam's Razor later elsewhere, incl. Hanlon's razor and my definition of "well-meaning".))

Example for 1) from the third presidential debate:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UaVWRetR4jg

--------------------------
P.S.: Having observed Trump long enough now, in the video above he effectively tells "I am a Putin puppet, believe me". :) Of course, we're still waiting for direct proof.

Direct quotes can sometimes replace lots of journalistic brain wringing.

Edits/addenda done
Title: Re: RussiaGate And The Media: Examples of Good AND Bad Journalism
Post by: Buddy on March 08, 2018, 03:14:14 PM
Quote
Sorry, I find this one of the worst well-meaning pieces, judging from the beginning (and then I stopped).

And the article is 2+ months old (January 4th).  I stopped too...

Title: Re: RussiaGate And The Media: Examples of Good AND Bad Journalism
Post by: Neven on March 09, 2018, 09:38:07 AM
One of those issues that are indirectly linked to Russiagate that the corporate media simply refuses to discuss:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nbzSnEyl_Cs
Title: Re: RussiaGate And The Media: Examples of Good AND Bad Journalism
Post by: idunno on March 10, 2018, 04:17:00 PM
Two more examples of good journalism, with the added bonus that the first one identifies and critiques some very bad journalism, both from Taibbi in Rolling Stone...

https://www.rollingstone.com/politics/taibbi-russiagate-skeptics-take-a-beating-mueller-probe-w517006


https://www.rollingstone.com/politics/taibbi-russiagate-trump-putin-mueller-and-targeting-dissent-w517486
Title: Re: RussiaGate And The Media: Examples of Good AND Bad Journalism
Post by: TerryM on March 10, 2018, 09:49:24 PM
Two more examples of good journalism, with the added bonus that the first one identifies and critiques some very bad journalism, both from Taibbi in Rolling Stone...

https://www.rollingstone.com/politics/taibbi-russiagate-skeptics-take-a-beating-mueller-probe-w517006 (https://www.rollingstone.com/politics/taibbi-russiagate-skeptics-take-a-beating-mueller-probe-w517006)


https://www.rollingstone.com/politics/taibbi-russiagate-trump-putin-mueller-and-targeting-dissent-w517486 (https://www.rollingstone.com/politics/taibbi-russiagate-trump-putin-mueller-and-targeting-dissent-w517486)


Could I add another to your excellent links


https://www.rollingstone.com/politics/taibbi-trump-dangerous-idiot-why-push-him-war-north-korea-syria-w517708

Terry
Title: Re: RussiaGate And The Media: Examples of Good AND Bad Journalism
Post by: Tor Bejnar on March 10, 2018, 11:40:10 PM
Cross post from Russiagate thread:
I wish I had seen this before I wrote all that (or perhaps I don't, since it needed saying), but I seem to have failed to properly describe the timeline, for which this is a direct source. If the link crosses "the Pond" the first 19 minutes of The New Yorker Radio Hour contains an audio interview of Jane Mayer by David Remnick (editor in chief): they are both easy to listen to and  describe the background without projection, covering pros and cons, sourcing and timeframe. I think this is much better than most of the material available. https://www.newyorker.com/podcast/the-new-yorker-radio-hour/christopher-steele-and-the-russian-dossier-and-a-north-korean-poet (https://www.newyorker.com/podcast/the-new-yorker-radio-hour/christopher-steele-and-the-russian-dossier-and-a-north-korean-poet)

It lacks the pushy affect that some dislike in Maddow, and is as close to original material as most of us will ever get. Please give it a listen if you want to know more about the context, background, and character of the Steele/Fusion investigation. Being audio is convenient for those busy with other things.

For quiet competence, it's hard to beat. It contains dates, and might clear up the confusion there.
Title: Re: RussiaGate And The Media: Examples of Good AND Bad Journalism
Post by: Jim Pettit on March 11, 2018, 08:17:48 PM
Two more examples of good journalism, with the added bonus that the first one identifies and critiques some very bad journalism, both from Taibbi in Rolling Stone...

https://www.rollingstone.com/politics/taibbi-russiagate-skeptics-take-a-beating-mueller-probe-w517006

https://www.rollingstone.com/politics/taibbi-russiagate-trump-putin-mueller-and-targeting-dissent-w517486

I'd disagree with you here, and declare these two Taibbi pieces, plus the one linked to by Terry M, to be examples of bad journalism. A distillation of the three leads one to these inevitable conclusions:

1) "#Russiagate Skeptics Take a Beating": Democrats are upsetting both Trump supporters and Clinton haters by insisting that increasingly credible allegations of collusion, conspiracy, and treason by the former be investigated.

2) "The New Blacklist": Democrats are upsetting Putin supporters by insisting that increasingly credible allegations of collusion, conspiracy, and treason by Americans be investigated.

3) "Trump Is a Dangerous Idiot. So Why Are We Pushing Him Toward War?": If Trump starts World War III, it's only because Democrats keep insisting that increasingly credible allegations of collusion, conspiracy, and treason against him be investigated

Taibbi's bottom line: Leave Donnie alone!

Well, let me think about that one for awhile...
Title: Re: RussiaGate And The Media: Examples of Good AND Bad Journalism
Post by: Martin Gisser on March 11, 2018, 09:19:51 PM
Two more examples of good journalism, with the added bonus that the first one identifies and critiques some very bad journalism, both from Taibbi in Rolling Stone...

https://www.rollingstone.com/politics/taibbi-russiagate-skeptics-take-a-beating-mueller-probe-w517006

https://www.rollingstone.com/politics/taibbi-russiagate-trump-putin-mueller-and-targeting-dissent-w517486

I'd disagree with you here, and declare these two Taibbi pieces, plus the one linked to by Terry M, to be examples of bad journalism.
Looks like. Taibbi is no amateur. Thus the sub-headline here:
Quote
#Russiagate Skeptics Take a Beating
We don't know for sure where the Mueller probe is going, but don't dare say that out loud
already disqualifies the piece from reading. I stopped at "Pearl Harbor", which he didn't attribute to anybody, and went on checking who said it.

Enough of Taibbi for me. Bad. (Judging from the sub-headline: Not even BS, but Bad Stupid.)

-------------------
P.S.: Wait. WE he writes in the sub-headline. Makes it even worse. Progressive hypocrisy with selective vision, the cancer of  the U.S. Left.
--> The sub-headline could be right out of a Faux News channel, just with WE replaced by THEY.
Title: Re: RussiaGate And The Media: Examples of Good AND Bad Journalism
Post by: sidd on March 11, 2018, 10:44:11 PM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2CKGA9w-B6A

sidd
Title: Re: RussiaGate And The Media: Examples of Good AND Bad Journalism
Post by: Martin Gisser on March 12, 2018, 05:00:31 PM
Lewis Black, doing the "most exercise" thing he ever had, published on May 27, 2017
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XZMMaSKvhlY
Title: Re: RussiaGate And The Media: Examples of Good AND Bad Journalism
Post by: Buddy on March 16, 2018, 01:37:02 PM
Speaking of bad journalism....and my buddy's at FOX:

https://thinkprogress.org/knives-out-rod-rosenstein-a64f6af36fb3/

Yes.... the subpoena must a GOOD SIGN for Donnie.  Now click your heels together and go back to Kansas... ;)

Further down in the article linked above.....Hugh Hewitt (one of my favorite far right conservative HACKS)....notes the following:

Quote
Hugh Hewitt, a conservative pundit with close ties to the administration, also used the New York Times report as a way to attack Rosenstein and suggest Trump should fire Attorney General Jeff Sessions.

So if, in the course of investigating links between the Russian government and the Trump campaign, Mueller discovered an issue related to the Trump Organization, he’d have the authority to investigate that. Further, a provision of the special counsel law, 28 C.F.R. § 600.4(b), allows Mueller to bring matters beyond his original jurisdiction to Rosenstein and get permission to pursue them. It’s unclear if that was necessary in this case, but if it happened, it doesn’t mean Rosenstein did anything wrong. He would be acting in a manner totally consistent with the statute.

Trump, however, has said that any investigation into his business activities by Mueller would cross a “red line.”

Hugh Hewitt, a conservative pundit with close ties to the administration, also used the New York Times report as a way to attack Rosenstein and suggest Trump should fire Attorney General Jeff Sessions.

The following was a Hugh Hewitt tweet:

Quote
I support retaining, giving SC Mueller all he needs. But DAG Rosenstein owes public a status report on where this is going. And if refuses that does give @realDonaldTrump an argument why he needs a new AG to at least brief public much of which skeptical.

Why MSNBC ever hired him is beyond me.  He is like hiring a lobbyist for the far right.  He is pathetic....
Title: Re: RussiaGate And The Media: Examples of Good AND Bad Journalism
Post by: litesong on March 16, 2018, 06:53:02 PM
Hugh Hewitt.....Why MSNBC ever hired him is beyond me.  He is like hiring a lobbyist for the far right.  He is pathetic....
  The people in white hats show up better, against a black background.
Title: Re: RussiaGate And The Media: Examples of Good AND Bad Journalism
Post by: Neven on March 16, 2018, 10:09:36 PM
Why MSNBC ever hired him is beyond me.  He is like hiring a lobbyist for the far right.  He is pathetic....

Ratings. And spreading the Fox message, so that no one thinks twice about supporting the real left.
Title: Re: RussiaGate And The Media: Examples of Good AND Bad Journalism
Post by: Neven on March 16, 2018, 10:30:09 PM
Another good example of bad journalism at MSNBC (indirectly related to Russiagate):

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IYSOmD5LyYs
Title: Re: RussiaGate And The Media: Examples of Good AND Bad Journalism
Post by: TerryM on March 16, 2018, 10:40:40 PM
Assange was my hero long before he turned on Hillary.


He's still my hero.  8)


Terry
Title: Re: RussiaGate And The Media: Examples of Good AND Bad Journalism
Post by: Neven on March 16, 2018, 11:19:41 PM
Assange did some fantastic stuff, but he has a big ego and he made a mistake supporting Trump so openly during the elections. I understand why he did it, he wants to get out of his prison, but IMO it undermined trust in Wikileaks.
Title: Re: RussiaGate And The Media: Examples of Good AND Bad Journalism
Post by: TerryM on March 16, 2018, 11:33:16 PM
Assange did some fantastic stuff, but he has a big ego and he made a mistake supporting Trump so openly during the elections. I understand why he did it, he wants to get out of his prison, but IMO it undermined trust in Wikileaks.
Was he Pro-Trump or Anti-Clinton?


There is a difference.
Terry
Title: Re: RussiaGate And The Media: Examples of Good AND Bad Journalism
Post by: Neven on March 20, 2018, 12:56:06 PM
Journalism at its best:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mpbeOCKZFfQ
Title: Re: RussiaGate And The Media: Examples of Good AND Bad Journalism
Post by: Hefaistos on March 20, 2018, 09:48:19 PM
Journalism at its best:


Indeed.
The part of Russiagate that is about trolling, bots, etc., is in reality Cambridge Analytica-gate, or Mercer/Bannon-gate.
Title: Re: RussiaGate And The Media: Examples of Good AND Bad Journalism
Post by: Tunnelforce9 on March 20, 2018, 11:16:37 PM
Let's not forget.

https://www.forbes.com/sites/kalevleetaru/2018/03/19/why-are-we-only-now-talking-about-facebook-and-elections/#2166e29f4838
Title: Re: RussiaGate And The Media: Examples of Good AND Bad Journalism
Post by: TerryM on March 20, 2018, 11:18:50 PM
Perhaps it's a question of who has the better bots? :P
Terry
Title: Re: RussiaGate And The Media: Examples of Good AND Bad Journalism
Post by: Buddy on March 21, 2018, 04:38:17 PM
Fox News analyst quits after finally realizing it's a 'propaganda machine'

https://www.yahoo.com/news/fox-news-analyst-quits-finally-231153791.html

Glad to see someone call them out.  Again.... it will be interesting to see what happens to Sheppard Smith starting next week.
Title: Re: RussiaGate And The Media: Examples of Good AND Bad Journalism
Post by: litesong on March 26, 2018, 05:36:21 PM
Fox News analyst quits after finally realizing it's a 'propaganda machine'

https://www.yahoo.com/news/fox-news-analyst-quits-finally-231153791.html
In truth, fake FOX NUUS was brought into existence to eliminate the causes leading to Richard Nixon's resignation as President. Their recent mission is to divert from the treasonous russian footsie actions of "don'T rump" (plus his inhumanity), so "don'T rump" doesn't get impeached.
Title: Re: RussiaGate And The Media: Examples of Good AND Bad Journalism
Post by: ivica on March 28, 2018, 09:01:18 PM
Workshop: Robot Journalism – Should we be afraid? (http://europeanjournalists.org/blog/2018/03/28/workshop-robot-journalism-should-we-be-afraid-lisbon-5-june/)

"Robot “journalism” is already the reality in many newsrooms churning out content faster than we can consume."

"But how much do we know about these robots behind the news? Are they friends or foes of journalists?" or of humanity?

Robots are a tolls, result depends on who controls them. Oy Vey (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oy_vey).
Title: Re: RussiaGate And The Media: Examples of Good AND Bad Journalism
Post by: TerryM on March 29, 2018, 04:01:59 AM
After watching ~1/2 hour of what now passes for "news" in the States I'm ready to try any alternative.
If R2D2 wants to try his hand at writing script for C3PO to deliver, it would at least be different than the kindergarten groupies who now preach to their numbed and dumbed down congregants.


There was a study decades back that showed that watching FAUX NEWS actually lowered your understanding of world events, and that the more you watched, the less you knew. The other channels must have read the report, noted FAUX viewership, and decided that this was the way forward. The results are astonishing, an insult to anyone not inured to the fantasy.


Many years ago I was recovering from total paralysis, but appreciated getting out when I could. I hobbled, I slobbered, I couldn't speak well. I ventured into a convenience store to purchase something and had an unfamiliar clerk help me count my change.


"You gave me two one dollar bills. Your drink was One dollar and fifty nine cents. I'm giving you one quarter, that's twenty five cents, one dime which is another ten cents, one nickel, or five cents and one more penny."
 "If we take the one dollar and fifty nine cent drink and add one penny we'll have one dollar and 60 cents, then if we add a nickle we get one dollar and sixty five cents. Another ten cents with this dime, then twenty five cents more and we're right back to the two dollars you gave me. Understand"
All this with an elaborate mime of exchanging moneys.


I grunted and slunk out of the door.


The emotions I felt were not too far removed from those experienced while flipping slowly through the American "News" Channels. Do they really believe their viewership is that stupid?


Could they actually be correct?
Terry
Title: Re: RussiaGate And The Media: Examples of Good AND Bad Journalism
Post by: Buddy on April 01, 2018, 07:21:18 PM
Sinclair Broadcasting is basically the LOCAL communications arm of the Republican party:

Watch Sinclair Broadcast Group News Anchors Parrot Their Bosses’ Opinions in Perfect, Deafening Unison

https://slate.com/culture/2018/04/watch-sinclair-broadcast-group-local-news-anchors-parrot-their-bosses-opinions-in-perfect-deafening-unison.html

Sinclair and FOX are basically the same as Russia Today (RT) in Russia.  They are the mouthpiece of Trump.


Title: Re: RussiaGate And The Media: Examples of Good AND Bad Journalism
Post by: TerryM on April 01, 2018, 09:27:21 PM
Sinclair Broadcasting is basically the LOCAL communications arm of the Republican party:

Watch Sinclair Broadcast Group News Anchors Parrot Their Bosses’ Opinions in Perfect, Deafening Unison

https://slate.com/culture/2018/04/watch-sinclair-broadcast-group-local-news-anchors-parrot-their-bosses-opinions-in-perfect-deafening-unison.html (https://slate.com/culture/2018/04/watch-sinclair-broadcast-group-local-news-anchors-parrot-their-bosses-opinions-in-perfect-deafening-unison.html)

Sinclair and FOX are basically the same as Russia Today (RT) in Russia.  They are the mouthpiece of Trump.


Sinclair and Fox may be peas in a pod, but RT has been improving it's journalism ever since it came under fire. In the recent flap about Corbyn's cap, we can be absolutely sure that RT didn't Photoshop the hat, because if they had they would lose their broadcasting license.
On an interesting side note RT won't be seen in DC any more as their channel was sold out from under them. Still available on the internet at this moment, but with net neutrality possibly a thing of the past, viewing speeds may differ.
Terry
Title: Re: RussiaGate And The Media: Examples of Good AND Bad Journalism
Post by: Buddy on April 02, 2018, 03:26:00 PM
Here are two video clips.  The first link is a John Oliver piece.  Oliver's video is the SECOND video clip in the linked article.  Oliver was a protégé of Jon Stewart.... and they BOTH do their homework.

http://deadline.com/2018/04/john-oliver-sinclair-broadcasting-forcing-newscasters-anti-media-propaganda-scripts-video-1202356711/

The second link is a montage of a "must air" segment that Sinclair REQUIRED their owned local stations to air (WORD FOR WORD).  I encourage you to watch the John Oliver segment above....he does a great job.  But also watch this montage...

The montage was put together by those MOCKING the Sinclair statement that ALL of the Sinclair stations HAD TO READ.

Again.... Sinclair and FOX are serving much as RT does in Russia.  Of course....RT is even worse (at least for now).  RT receives FINANCIAL BACKING FROM THE RUSSIAN GOVERNMENT AND UNCLE VLADI.   If the current acquisition of Tribune Broadcasting goes through (which is almost assured by Traitor Don)..... Sinclair will own more than 200 local news stations across the country.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T50pLTvwO80





Title: Re: RussiaGate And The Media: Examples of Good AND Bad Journalism
Post by: sidd on April 03, 2018, 09:17:39 PM
I posted two messages in another thread

https://forum.arctic-sea-ice.net/index.php/topic,1974.msg148396.html

https://forum.arctic-sea-ice.net/index.php/topic,1974.msg148420.html

about the loss of control of the narrative by the traditional media monopolies. I think that discussion fits better here.

Fake news was perfectly fine as long as the rulers controlled the fakery. But now anyone can fake news. So the question becomes, as the atheist said to the evangelist: "Why should I believe in your fake deity, as contrasted with all the other believers in different fake deities ? Much easier to disbelieve in all, and more logically consistent. "

They have lost monopoly of lies. So sad.

sidd
Title: Re: RussiaGate And The Media: Examples of Good AND Bad Journalism
Post by: johnm33 on April 04, 2018, 11:36:05 AM
I assume, in the likelyhood of he who pays the piper calls the tune, that every 'news' outlet needs the same treatment here meted out to the BBC, https://markdoran.wordpress.com/2018/03/15/sneer-and-smear/
Title: Re: RussiaGate And The Media: Examples of Good AND Bad Journalism
Post by: TerryM on April 04, 2018, 04:27:25 PM
sidd
I wonder if the goal isn't often to muddy the water until we simply believe nothing we read.
What was actually in those DNC e-mails - or does the story end with debate on how they were obtained?


john
Has everyone lost their cap key? 8)


The anti-Putin propaganda has reached a height that has always, in my experience, lead to war.
People march against Trump, against guns or against the cops.


WHERE ARE THE PEACE PROTESTERS!


Terry

Title: Re: RussiaGate And The Media: Examples of Good AND Bad Journalism
Post by: AbruptSLR on April 07, 2018, 04:31:39 AM
It looks like Trump has ordered Homeland Security to monitor Journalists and Bloggers (like everyone here) so that he can pressure whoever he wants, whenever he wants:

Title: "Homeland Security to Compile Database of Journalists, Bloggers"

https://biglawbusiness.com/homeland-security-to-compile-database-of-journalists-bloggers/

Extract: "The U.S. Department of Homeland Security wants to monitor hundreds of thousands of news sources around the world and compile a database of journalists, editors, foreign correspondents, and bloggers to identify top “media influencers.”

It’s seeking a contractor that can help it monitor traditional news sources as well as social media and identify “any and all” coverage related to the agency or a particular event, according to a request for information released April 3.

The data to be collected includes a publication’s “sentiment” as well as geographical spread, top posters, languages, momentum, and circulation. No value for the contract was disclosed."
Title: Re: RussiaGate And The Media: Examples of Good AND Bad Journalism
Post by: sidd on April 07, 2018, 07:03:57 AM
America's finest news source beats on Maddow:

"Enraged to the point that she was no longer able to form words .."

"At press time, MSNBC sources confirmed that Maddow’s ratings had reached an all-time high."

https://www.theonion.com/fuming-rachel-maddow-spends-entire-show-just-pointing-w-1825017260

sidd
Title: Re: RussiaGate And The Media: Examples of Good AND Bad Journalism
Post by: Neven on April 07, 2018, 12:53:48 PM
Jimmy Dore discusses it too, but watch Michael Moore at the start of the video:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J833Sv5GCVQ

Where would Maddow be without Russiagate?
Title: Re: RussiaGate And The Media: Examples of Good AND Bad Journalism
Post by: TerryM on April 07, 2018, 02:46:16 PM
I particularly liked the comment comparing her show to professional wrestling.
Wouldn't waste my time watching either, but I do get the reference,


Back in the day MSNBC was the 24 hour Monica Lewinsky Channel. They evidently make a decision as to what story will bring them the most viewers (money), and shamelessly pursue that story to the exclusion of much that might actually pass for news.


Apparently a successful strategy whenever showing a profit is more important than showing news.
Terry
Title: Re: RussiaGate And The Media: Examples of Good AND Bad Journalism
Post by: Tor Bejnar on April 07, 2018, 02:49:13 PM
Chris Hayes (MSNBC) covered it here (https://www.msnbc.com/all-in/watch/as-west-virginia-teachers-strike-ends-is-oklahoma-next-1178609731758).  I didn't find a Rachel Maddow video.

(The previous video says both didn't cover the West Virginia teacher's strike.)
Title: Re: RussiaGate And The Media: Examples of Good AND Bad Journalism
Post by: TerryM on April 07, 2018, 03:38:24 PM
Posted without comment.
It's only 1:38 min.

https://youtu.be/4zve_TXOXz8

Terry

from
https://www.naturalnews.com/2018-04-01-stunning-video-reveals-how-local-news-tv-journalists-are-nothing-but-human-puppets-presstitutes-reading-propaganda-scripts.html
Title: Re: RussiaGate And The Media: Examples of Good AND Bad Journalism
Post by: Martin Gisser on April 15, 2018, 04:06:01 AM
Jimmy Dore discusses it too, but watch Michael Moore at the start of the video:

[xxx]

Where would Maddow be without Russiagate?
Rich and famous, to the envy of Jimmy Dore... (Peddling envy out of context sure qualifies as very bad journalism).

From 2013, long before Russiagate:
http://www.tvguide.com/news/tv-highest-paid-stars-1069334/
Quote
[...]

LATE NIGHT (per year)
Jon Stewart (The Daily Show): $25-30 million
Jay Leno (The Tonight Show): $20 million
David Letterman (Late Night): $20 million
Jimmy Kimmel (Jimmy Kimmel Live): $10 million
Andy Cohen (Watch What Happens Live): $2 million

NEWS (per year)
Matt Lauer (NBC): $22-25 million
Rachel Maddow (MSNBC): $7 million
Megyn Kelly (Fox News Channel): $6 million
Scott Pelley (CBS): $5 million
Chris Cuomo (CNN): $2.5 million

DAYTIME/SYNDICATION (per year)
Judy Sheindlin (Judge Judy): $47 million
Katie Couric (Katie): $10 million
Michael Strahan (Live with Kelly and Michael): $4 million
Sharon Osbourne (The Talk): $1 million
Aisha Tyler (The Talk): $500,000

It seems she hasn't got a pay rise since...
Title: Re: RussiaGate And The Media: Examples of Good AND Bad Journalism
Post by: sedziobs on April 16, 2018, 05:32:44 PM
There seems to be a consensus here that the White Helmets are an illegitimate or even terrorist organization.  I'm not well-versed enough to develop a firm opinion.  I would appreciate any links to what members here consider to be a reasoned assessment. 

I know that this article will be seen as anti-Russian propaganda, but I would like to see a reasoned counter to its claims.
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2017/dec/18/syria-white-helmets-conspiracy-theories (https://www.theguardian.com/world/2017/dec/18/syria-white-helmets-conspiracy-theories)
Title: Re: RussiaGate And The Media: Examples of Good AND Bad Journalism
Post by: TerryM on April 16, 2018, 08:04:15 PM
There seems to be a consensus here that the White Helmets are an illegitimate or even terrorist organization.  I'm not well-versed enough to develop a firm opinion.  I would appreciate any links to what members here consider to be a reasoned assessment. 

I know that this article will be seen as anti-Russian propaganda, but I would like to see a reasoned counter to its claims.
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2017/dec/18/syria-white-helmets-conspiracy-theories (https://www.theguardian.com/world/2017/dec/18/syria-white-helmets-conspiracy-theories)
I did read your posted piece. There is little I agree with & I'd advise that anyone quoting Eliot "bellingcat" Higgins is almost certainly a source of disinformation.


In the end it matters little whether you see the white helmets as terrorists or as neutral actors who are so often found in terrorist encampments. What matters is that their message attempts to paint Western intervention into Syria's civil war as a good thing.


If you believe that Trump, May and Macron acted legally and morally in an operation that Macron himself described as "illegal, but legitimate". then your support of the white helmets is a given.
I you believe that Trump may not be a shining example of integrity, or that the bombing of a war torn country may not be in the best interest of peace and stability, then what the white hats say or do really isn't of too much import.


ivica's latest post may provide some guidance.
Terry
Title: Re: RussiaGate And The Media: Examples of Good AND Bad Journalism
Post by: sedziobs on April 16, 2018, 08:25:28 PM
The only quote from Bellingcat that I noticed was simply stating that the Mannequin Challenge video was misused.  Do you consider that disinformation?
Title: Re: RussiaGate And The Media: Examples of Good AND Bad Journalism
Post by: Martin Gisser on April 16, 2018, 08:43:13 PM
Being mad at Bellingcat is a sure sign of morbid Putinophilia. Sometimes also morbid Assadophilia.
Title: Re: RussiaGate And The Media: Examples of Good AND Bad Journalism
Post by: Neven on April 16, 2018, 09:39:27 PM
Who is mad at Bellingcat, or were you talking in general?
Title: Re: RussiaGate And The Media: Examples of Good AND Bad Journalism
Post by: sedziobs on April 16, 2018, 09:42:22 PM
I was hoping to escape the American Imperialism vs Russian propaganda dichotomy, and simply analyze the merits of individual sources.  I know that is difficult.
Title: Re: RussiaGate And The Media: Examples of Good AND Bad Journalism
Post by: Hefaistos on April 16, 2018, 10:04:46 PM
There seems to be a consensus here that the White Helmets are an illegitimate or even terrorist organization.  I'm not well-versed enough to develop a firm opinion.  I would appreciate any links to what members here consider to be a reasoned assessment. 

I know that this article will be seen as anti-Russian propaganda, but I would like to see a reasoned counter to its claims.
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2017/dec/18/syria-white-helmets-conspiracy-theories (https://www.theguardian.com/world/2017/dec/18/syria-white-helmets-conspiracy-theories)

This article shows a link to jihadists, apparently there is filmed evidence.
https://www.rt.com/news/388960-white-helmets-execution-footage/

Vanessa Beeley:
http://21stcenturywire.com/2017/09/01/white-helmets-the-jib-al-qubeh-war-crime-in-aleppo-denied-by-channel-4/

Extensive article analyzin their production of propaganda films:
http://21stcenturywire.com/2018/02/01/white-helmets-channel-4-bbc-guardian-architects-war/
Title: Re: RussiaGate And The Media: Examples of Good AND Bad Journalism
Post by: magnamentis on April 16, 2018, 10:19:16 PM
I was hoping to escape the American Imperialism vs Russian propaganda dichotomy, and simply analyze the merits of individual sources.  I know that is difficult.

there are those who are seeking truth because they know they know little and then there are those who think they got it.

those who think they got it just have proven they didn't and in the process they prefer to take side and identify themselves with the group thay want to belong to because they need to feel safe with their flawed assumptions. for those people it's impossible to analyze merits, opinions and any input whiie for those who seek truth it's a pleasure, hence easy to to so.

also the later ask more than those who became dogmatic and are able to admit errors and
to apologize for overshooting (as most of us do sometimes).

so it easy for those who control there ego and animalic instincts and use their brain to seek truth rather than feeding a profiling neurosis.

the most difficult to handle are those who do good for the wrong motive as mention above or any other ego-based motivation.
Title: Re: RussiaGate And The Media: Examples of Good AND Bad Journalism
Post by: sedziobs on April 16, 2018, 10:36:35 PM
Hefaistos, one of those is Russian state media, and the other two are by the journalist that the Guardian piece discussed.  I'm aware of what both have written on the issue.  The question is if we can discern whether these sources or the Guardian are more reliable.  Or perhaps neither are.

Criticism against Beeley includes that most of her evidence is personal accounts from her tour of Syria that was approved by their government, in which her experience contrasts with that of others like Cecilia Udden.  Further, the 21stcenturywire site itself is often linked to RT and Sputnik in social media.  Perhaps these criticisms are unfounded, but simply stating the views of Beeley and RT will not help.
Title: Re: RussiaGate And The Media: Examples of Good AND Bad Journalism
Post by: Martin Gisser on April 16, 2018, 10:48:35 PM
Who is mad at Bellingcat, or were you talking in general?
Both. It is a standard red flag. Example: Terry.

Title: Re: RussiaGate And The Media: Examples of Good AND Bad Journalism
Post by: Neven on April 16, 2018, 10:59:26 PM
Who is mad at Bellingcat, or were you talking in general?
Both. It is a standard red flag. Example: Terry.

I can't speak for Terry, but I don't think he's mad at Bellingcat. He's just saying one can't rely on it uncritically, because it has clear biases. Just as with RT and Sputnik, or Fox, CNN and MSNBC. That doesn't mean you can't glean useful information from them. You just have to be aware of their biases (and your own, but that's more difficult).
Title: Re: RussiaGate And The Media: Examples of Good AND Bad Journalism
Post by: Martin Gisser on April 16, 2018, 11:09:44 PM
I can't speak for Terry, but I don't think he's mad at Bellingcat. He's just saying one can't rely on it uncritically, because it has clear biases. Just as with RT and Sputnik, or Fox, CNN and MSNBC.
Sorry, Neven, you need your brain examined. Serioiusly. Or maybe try to forget about politics and focus on Earth and science. I'm sorry, your all-same-ism is pathological.

Bellingcat is about producing evidence and checking fake evidence. That's why Putinophiles and Assadophiles don't like it.

A voice from the madhouse:
I'd advise that anyone quoting Eliot "bellingcat" Higgins is almost certainly a source of disinformation.
Title: Re: RussiaGate And The Media: Examples of Good AND Bad Journalism
Post by: Neven on April 16, 2018, 11:44:03 PM
Sorry, Neven, you need your brain examined. Serioiusly.

It's okay that you don't get it. I still like you.  :)

Quote
Bellingcat is about producing evidence and checking fake evidence. That's why Putinophiles and Assadophiles don't like it.

Bellingcat is clearly biased in its selection of what evidence to show, or the conclusions they attach to this evidence. Their scope doesn't go very far beyond themes that are tied to Russia. It's therefore no wonder that Higgins has been made a fellow at the Atlantic Council, has flirted with weapon manufacturers (who knows if he has started working for one or more along the way), and as far as I know, there is no transparency as to where their funding comes from.

Furthermore, and I might be mistaken, but they will never apply their analytical skills when it comes to things that might embarrass NATO or Western powers. They stay well within the bounds of certain narratives. And this indicates their bias.

There's nothing inherently wrong with that. It just means you have to keep it in mind when reading their information, as I try to do everywhere I go to look for information. That doesn't make one a Putin or Assad-phile.

It's quite possible to dislike Putin/Assad and not blindly trust Bellingcat, you know.
Title: Re: RussiaGate And The Media: Examples of Good AND Bad Journalism
Post by: Martin Gisser on April 16, 2018, 11:51:44 PM
Bellingcat has the same problem as Rachel Maddow: Too much stuff out there.

If you seriously think NATO and Russia produce the same amount of fake news these days - get your brain examined, pretty please. Buddhists offer workshops on brain self-examination. No need yet to see a psychologist, but you are coming close to clinical symptoms. Sorry.
Title: Re: RussiaGate And The Media: Examples of Good AND Bad Journalism
Post by: Hefaistos on April 16, 2018, 11:52:09 PM
Hefaistos, one of those is Russian state media, and the other two are by the journalist that the Guardian piece discussed.  I'm aware of what both have written on the issue.  The question is if we can discern whether these sources or the Guardian are more reliable.  Or perhaps neither are.

Criticism against Beeley includes that most of her evidence is personal accounts from her tour of Syria that was approved by their government, in which her experience contrasts with that of others like Cecilia Udden.  Further, the 21stcenturywire site itself is often linked to RT and Sputnik in social media.  Perhaps these criticisms are unfounded, but simply stating the views of Beeley and RT will not help.

I'd be very suspicious of a group like the WHite helmets, that has the production of propaganda films/materials on their agenda. Furthermore, they are heavily financed by US/UK et.al.
The link I gave has a lot of references/links at the end.
http://21stcenturywire.com/2018/02/01/white-helmets-channel-4-bbc-guardian-architects-war/

I looked at one example, and I found her analysis absolutely correct: This is all staged
There are also incredible comments to that video, from some firefighters that are just laughing at various errors the actors in the video are doing while handling rescue equipment:
http://21stcenturywire.com/2016/10/07/video-white-helmets-miraculous-rag-doll-rescue/

The Corbettreport discusses the Guardian article you referred to:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3vNwe7yKbwo

On the web,you can find examples like this, from their production of propaganda films:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NOOmEmZO2u8

Another Guardian article, discussing the Western/UK funding of pro-jihadist propaganda in Syria. (It also mentions some atrocities by the Jayish group):
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2016/may/03/how-britain-funds-the-propaganda-war-against-isis-in-syria
Title: Re: RussiaGate And The Media: Examples of Good AND Bad Journalism
Post by: sedziobs on April 16, 2018, 11:56:32 PM
Quote
Above is a screenshot from the WhiteHelmet/AMC video. There is one White Helmet in full uniform on the left “checking” the body. The guy in the centre is unarmed but certainly looks more like a fighter than a first responder and the guy on the right is still wearing what could be identified as a militant headdress while sporting a White Helmet jacket. At this point, according to witness testimony, these bodies had already been picked clean of their valuables and belongings before these faux humanitarians starred in another of their cameo roles as rescue workers.

This is an excerpt from Hefaistos' earlier second link, by Beeley.  I consider this to be vague anecdotal conjecture rather than real journalism.  A headdress and White Helmet shirt are also worn together in this Snopes piece: https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/cnn-same-refugee-girl/ (https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/cnn-same-refugee-girl/)
Does that really indicate anything nefarious?

It is just one excerpt, but is not out of character.  Many of the links in the article are to other 21stcenturywire pieces or to mintpressnews, and many unsupported assertions are made.  I personally do not find this kind of "reporting" to be of any value.
Title: Re: RussiaGate And The Media: Examples of Good AND Bad Journalism
Post by: Hefaistos on April 16, 2018, 11:56:42 PM
Bellingcat has the same problem as Rachel Maddow: Too much stuff out there.

If you seriously think NATO and Russia produce the same amount of fake news these days - get your brain examined, pretty please. Buddhists offer workshops on brain self-examination. No need yet to see a psychologist, but you are coming close to clinical symptoms. Sorry.

Martin, you seem to be out of arguments?
Neven is seriously discussing some very relevant facts about Bellingcat, but what are you doing?
Title: Re: RussiaGate And The Media: Examples of Good AND Bad Journalism
Post by: TerryM on April 17, 2018, 12:07:30 AM
I can't speak for Terry, but I don't think he's mad at Bellingcat. He's just saying one can't rely on it uncritically, because it has clear biases. Just as with RT and Sputnik, or Fox, CNN and MSNBC.
Sorry, Neven, you need your brain examined. Serioiusly. Or maybe try to forget about politics and focus on Earth and science. I'm sorry, your all-same-ism is pathological.

Bellingcat is about producing evidence and checking fake evidence. That's why Putinophiles and Assadophiles don't like it.

A voice from the madhouse:
I'd advise that anyone quoting Eliot "bellingcat" Higgins is almost certainly a source of disinformation.


What, pray tell has your experience been with young Elliot.
I've only known him since he was posting from his "mom's", after he'd lost that awful sales job.


He learned something of geo-location back then, but when he changed his online name, and started his own blog, he apparently forgot that the strength of crowd source geo-location lies in having all sides and biases represented.
I wasn't much use myself, I've never been to Russia or the Ukraine, but I did get to where I could identify and discern between Russian gas stations and Ukrainian ones. I could usually tell a Russian highway by the guardrails, and identify a few of the gross differences between Soviet era tanks and the Russian models that came later.


It wasn't a case of disliking Elliot, more a case where he drifted from being an extremely biased observer, to a participant who was less and less reliable about his observations.
Remember when the video of the Russian tanks going into Georgia was presented to a sitting Congress as evidence of Russian tanks rolling into Donbas? That isn't biased observation, that's prevarication.


What was you own expertise? How did you come to know him?
Terry
Title: Re: RussiaGate And The Media: Examples of Good AND Bad Journalism
Post by: Neven on April 17, 2018, 12:23:33 AM
I can't imagine all of the White Helmets being fake, but I wouldn't be surprised if some of it is used as a cover for spreading disinformation/propaganda (given the funding, etc). If they're on the side opposing Assad, it also seems highly unlikely that they're not working together with jihadists, so that's a bit dodgy as well.

My bias is simply that when all corporate media and the good liberals on social media sing the praise of some organisation, or demonize some other entity, I surmise that the truth is probably different. I can't help that, sorry. I'm a suspicious person.
Title: Re: RussiaGate And The Media: Examples of Good AND Bad Journalism
Post by: Martin Gisser on April 17, 2018, 12:29:27 AM
Martin, you seem to be out of arguments?
I'm out of patience!
Title: Re: RussiaGate And The Media: Examples of Good AND Bad Journalism
Post by: sedziobs on April 17, 2018, 12:38:59 AM
I don't think it's much of a secret that Western nations have sought to undermine Assad and Russia has sought to support him.  Evidence of the former does not mean the White Helmets are a terrorist organization.  And I don't doubt that their reporting has an anti-Assad bias.  That is very different than labeling them pure propagandists and terrorists, as the the RT/Sputnik/21stcenturywire/mintpressnews sphere claims.

Edited videos are also not conclusive in my opinion.  Any number of conspiracy theories can be maintained by seeking out perceived inconsistencies.  A systematic analysis of many videos would need to be performed.  Selecting a handful of easy targets is anecdotal.

Is there any evidence outside of the RT/Sputnik/21stcenturywire/mintpressnews sphere that indicates the White Helmets are a terrorist organization?  Or anything definitive from any source?
Title: Re: RussiaGate And The Media: Examples of Good AND Bad Journalism
Post by: Neven on April 17, 2018, 12:54:54 AM
It shouldn't be too difficult to find evidence that the White Helmets have a certain propagandistic side to them. I've read somewhere that they actively push for a no-fly zone over Syria (in other words, go to war with Russia).

How well-organised are the White Helmets? I often think people make the mistake of seeing entities as a monolith with a perfect hierarchy.

Of course, I haven't investigated this (only superficially), but I wouldn't be surprised of some White Helmets are heroes, some are terrorists, some make videos to get the West riled up via social media (offering TPTB to shoot off a couple of billion $ worth of bombs and missiles), some earn a couple of bucks for doing nothing, others (in the West) get paid handsomely for their NGO manager work, and so on.
Title: Re: RussiaGate And The Media: Examples of Good AND Bad Journalism
Post by: sedziobs on April 17, 2018, 01:05:36 AM
Neven, I agree with your take.  I think almost all media has a certain propagandist side, and the White Helmets are no exception.  And an organization like that is very unlikely to be monolithic.

That said, the RT and Vanessa Beeley claims appear to be propaganda themselves.
Title: Re: RussiaGate And The Media: Examples of Good AND Bad Journalism
Post by: Martin Gisser on April 17, 2018, 01:28:40 AM
Here is a recent piece by Vanessa Beeley:
http://21stcenturywire.com/2018/04/08/syria-the-egregious-western-media-chemical-weapon-fraud-in-eastern-ghouta/

She does not hesitate to quote RT:
https://www.rt.com/op-ed/421515-ghouta-syria-chemical-weapons/

And here is Bellingcat's explanation of the subtleties of producing IEDs (bombs) vs. producing chemical weapons:
https://www.bellingcat.com/news/mena/2018/04/16/anatomy-russian-chemical-weapons-lab-lie/

(How could they produce the amounts of chlorine gas necessary for a serious attack? And, heck, why not just buy it from standard industrial chemical suppliers? And then, where is their vertical catapult???? )

Summa summarum:  Beeley is crap. Don't bother.
Title: Re: RussiaGate And The Media: Examples of Good AND Bad Journalism
Post by: TerryM on April 17, 2018, 02:08:11 AM
I suppose everyone has forgotten the discussion we so recently had about the rebel chemical lab with the American equipment?
It was only days later that that chemicals were purportedly used in the very same neighborhood. Imagine my surprise!


As Assad closed in on the last of the rebels he warned of a CW false flag, The Russians warned of a false flag. Hell, even a Congressman took to the air to warn of the coming false flag.
Then it occured and everyone pretended that they believed it was real. They even pretended that they gave a damn for Syrian children - just before they sent in the missiles.


I care so much for your families that I'll bomb them to keep you from harming them.

Shades of the heroic FBI "Special" agents, (they're all "Special", and they do not have to ride in the short bus). Those wonderful, caring "Special"heros who were afraid that they might get hurt if they weren't in tanks when they toasted all of those little kids in Waco, because someone might have been "abusing" them.
Live babies that might be suffering abuse. Dead toasted babies that suffer the fear and pain of being roasted alive. What a difficult choice.


We certainly would have investigated but he might have hurt one of our "Special" agents.


Now one of these "Special" people is investigating the Elected President.


Damn glad Canada is without Presidents and "Special Agents"
Terry



Title: Re: RussiaGate And The Media: Examples of Good AND Bad Journalism
Post by: Neven on April 17, 2018, 09:48:25 PM
People in the corporate media are catching on to what Dore said two years ago:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UmoswzQE34c
Title: Re: RussiaGate And The Media: Examples of Good AND Bad Journalism
Post by: Rob Dekker on April 18, 2018, 09:15:30 AM
People in the corporate media are catching on to what Dore said two years ago:

Neven, do you have a reference to what he said two years ago ?
Because Jimmy did not provide one.
Title: Re: RussiaGate And The Media: Examples of Good AND Bad Journalism
Post by: Rob Dekker on April 18, 2018, 09:23:08 AM
Regarding good and bad journalism, let me give two examples about the Douma chemical attack :

One : Bellingcat :
https://www.bellingcat.com/news/mena/2018/04/11/open-source-survey-alleged-chemical-attacks-douma-7th-april-2018/

This report uses publicly available evidence to conclude that :
Quote
Based on the available evidence, it is highly likely the 34+ victims killed in the 1930 attack on the apartment building near al-Shuhada Square were killed as a result of a gas cylinder filled with what is most likely chlorine gas being dropped from a Hip helicopter originating from Dumayr Airbase.

Anyone can contest that conclusion, by showing that Bellingcat misinterpreted the evidence itself.

Second : Fisk's report from Douma :
https://www.independent.co.uk/voices/syria-chemical-attack-gas-douma-robert-fisk-ghouta-damascus-a8307726.html

Here we have a report that is based only on opinions, with the main witness declaring that "he is by his own admission not an eyewitness himself ".

Now, which report is better ?
Title: Re: RussiaGate And The Media: Examples of Good AND Bad Journalism
Post by: Neven on April 18, 2018, 10:41:35 AM
being dropped from a Hip helicopter originating from Dumayr Airbase.

I don't believe Bellingcat has provided detailed evidence for this, except for two unnamed aircraft spotters. It's impossible to affirm or contest that conclusion without more information.

I'm also not sure there is sufficient evidence to show the cylinders have been dropped from the air. You said the one on the bed should be discarded. The other one on the roof, I haven't looked at properly. Are there close-up pictures of it?

I also still don't understand how it happened exactly. So, the cylinder is dropped, remains stuck in the roof, the gas comes out quickly/slowly and then spreads across the building?

Quote
Now, which report is better ?

In principle on-the-ground reports are better than geolocation work connected to a bunch of assumptions (turtles all the way down). Of course, it would've been best if Western journalists would've been there right after it happened.

Either way, missiles shouldn't have been shot. But, of course, they had to be shot.
Title: Re: RussiaGate And The Media: Examples of Good AND Bad Journalism
Post by: Hefaistos on April 18, 2018, 11:20:58 AM
being dropped from a Hip helicopter originating from Dumayr Airbase.

I don't believe Bellingcat has provided detailed evidence for this, except for two unnamed aircraft spotters. It's impossible to affirm or contest that conclusion without more information.

I'm also not sure there is sufficient evidence to show the cylinders have been dropped from the air. You said the one on the bed should be discarded. The other one on the roof, I haven't looked at properly. Are there close-up pictures of it?

I also still don't understand how it happened exactly. So, the cylinder is dropped, remains stuck in the roof, the gas comes out quickly/slowly and then spreads across the building?

Quote
Now, which report is better ?

In principle on-the-ground reports are better than geolocation work connected to a bunch of assumptions (turtles all the way down). Of course, it would've been best if Western journalists would've been there right after it happened.

Either way, missiles shouldn't have been shot. But, of course, they had to be shot.

As usual with Bellingcat, they are jumping to conclusions. This goes for some analyses they've made of chemical attacks in Syria, at least.
Their method is to build up a disguise of credibility, but the chain of evidence is broken at vital points.

E.g., the evidence in Douma isn't clear at all, see:
https://libyancivilwar.blogspot.com.es/2018/04/cw-barrel-bomb-that-wasnt-there.html

Those gas canisters have been tampered with, moved.
And that was before the Syrian army or the Russians got there.

Review
* Midnight April 7/8, just after attack: cylinder seemingly not there
* Sometime April 8: cylinder there, unseen photos
* App. 1 pm April 8 or 9: video of cylinder there (seen frame)
* App. 3 pm April 9: Russian investigators visit, apparently find it not there (can we have video for that part?)
* 7:02 pm April 9 (presumed): video of cylinder there, but in a different position
Title: Re: RussiaGate And The Media: Examples of Good AND Bad Journalism
Post by: Tunnelforce9 on April 18, 2018, 02:02:10 PM
Not sure if you read this but here is an example of Good Journalism...

Quote
Only the Nusra Front seized the chemical weapons. Abu Ahmad watched as the al Qaeda affiliate called in 10 large cargo trucks, loaded 15 containers with chlorine and sarin gas, and drove them away to an unknown destination. He did not see what happened to the mustard gas.

http://foreignpolicy.com/2016/08/17/how-the-islamic-state-seized-a-chemical-weapons-stockpile/amp/?__twitter_impression=true
Title: Re: RussiaGate And The Media: Examples of Good AND Bad Journalism
Post by: Neven on April 18, 2018, 02:43:36 PM
Neven, do you have a reference to what he said two years ago ?
Because Jimmy did not provide one.

Sorry, had to look for it (I knew he had said it on TYT a couple of times). Here's an example from a little over two years ago. The whole segment is worth watching, but Dore comes in at 4:30:

https://youtu.be/oOQEVbQdkzo?t=270

Don't underestimate Dore's perspective. He makes mistakes and can go over the top occasionally, but his overall perspective is very strong. He knows how to put it in words in an authentic way. Oh, and he's funny. Funny people are usually smart and have an aptitude for wisdom.

I think Dore is going to be proven right when he said that in the long run it would be better if Trump would become elected (from the point when the only choice was HRC or Trump, of course). With Clinton as president, the Republicans would now become even more powerful at the state and federal levels. Forget about a Blue Wave. Now you have the opportunity to finally pull the country a bit to the left again, but that depends on what happens with Corporate Democrats.

It's all about what you replace Trump with, and how you do it.
Title: Re: RussiaGate And The Media: Examples of Good AND Bad Journalism
Post by: sedziobs on April 18, 2018, 04:00:09 PM
Dore provides the standard progressive viewpoint, what many would consider the American far left.    The Young Turks is a popular and influential platform among millennials.  It's not really in direct competition with cable TV, with which it is often compared on here.  Most millennials I know do not even have cable TV, due to its high cost in the US.  TYT and John Oliver are more influential than cable news among the younger generations of Democrats, in my opinion.

I'm not sure about using humor as a proxy for wisdom.  You could then say the same about more establishment personalities like Stephen Colbert, Jon Stewart, or Samantha Bee.

Title: Re: RussiaGate And The Media: Examples of Good AND Bad Journalism
Post by: Neven on April 18, 2018, 04:14:06 PM
I'm not sure about using humor as a proxy for wisdom.  You could then say the same about more establishment personalities like Stephen Colbert, Jon Stewart, or Samantha Bee.

I didn't say a sense of humour is a proxy for wisdom. I said that funny people have an aptitude for wisdom. That doesn't automatically make them wise. You have to choose to do something with that aptitude.

Jon Stewart kicked ass more than anybody. Stephen Colbert used to be good too. I don't know Samantha Bee. I can't watch John Oliver for too long, though he has some good stuff, mixed with some bad stuff. Bill Maher is out of touch.

Quote
Dore provides the standard progressive viewpoint, what many would consider the American far left.

Yes, the Overton window shifted so far to the right that what is left is considered far left, and what is considered left or moderate is actually right. Whatever you want to label it, Dore has a better grasp of what the systemic problems are than most.
Title: Re: RussiaGate And The Media: Examples of Good AND Bad Journalism
Post by: Neven on April 18, 2018, 04:31:04 PM
Rob, here's another video from two years ago with Dore explaining why there's a silver lining to Donald Trump becoming president, at 1:00 minute in:

https://youtu.be/i7yPY61vCKA?t=62
Title: Re: RussiaGate And The Media: Examples of Good AND Bad Journalism
Post by: DrTskoul on April 18, 2018, 04:55:52 PM
Rob, here's another video from two years ago with Dore explaining why there's a silver lining to Donald Trump becoming president, at 1:00 minute in:

https://youtu.be/i7yPY61vCKA?t=62

As long as there are effective treatments, not just theoretical constructs, and the patient does not die in the mean time.  Short of the anti-vaxxers measles parties...
Title: Re: RussiaGate And The Media: Examples of Good AND Bad Journalism
Post by: sedziobs on April 18, 2018, 06:03:08 PM
Yes, the Overton window shifted so far to the right that what is left is considered far left, and what is considered left or moderate is actually right. Whatever you want to label it, Dore has a better grasp of what the systemic problems are than most.
America is not like much of the world, as I'm sure you are aware.  Non-interventionism and socialism have long been considered "far" left in the US.  I don't use that term in any kind of pejorative manner.  It's simply descriptive.  The reason I'm pointing this out is to explain that Jimmy Dore doesn't have some kind of unique perspective.  His views are shared by a large and growing segment of the US population, and represented by outlets like The Nation, OpEdNews, The Humanist Report, Mother Jones, Daily Kos and DemocracyNow.  That you think Dore has a good grasp on issues simply means that you have views that align with the American far left.

I don't mean to be combative.  I perceive a notion here that all Americans are war hawks brainwashed by corporate propaganda, and that only a few brave souls like Dore can see the truth.  I'm trying to counter that narrative.
Title: Re: RussiaGate And The Media: Examples of Good AND Bad Journalism
Post by: Martin Gisser on April 18, 2018, 09:04:24 PM
Oh, and he's funny.
Haven't noted that yet. I find him so full of himself that I can't stand him long. Even without the superfluous factual slips and intended smears I find him dis-entertaining. Ha! Does he also dislike Bill Maher?
Title: Re: RussiaGate And The Media: Examples of Good AND Bad Journalism
Post by: sidd on April 19, 2018, 12:21:33 AM
An analysis of fake news from a broader viewpoint: Richard King on deeper societal issues:

" ... expertise has a centrality it didn’t have in an earlier ‘era’, or with the possibility that its frequent deployment in the name of everything from politics to diet may be a cause of increasing resentment amongst people whose knowledge and education is below the level required for success in a postindustrial, knowledge society."

"We need another heading, therefore, one stressing less the distrust of power than its unequal distribution in postindustrial societies – an inequality that turns increasingly on education, knowledge and cognitive ability "

"a category mistake – on a confusion between ‘objective facts’ and ‘personal feelings’ – is itself a reaction to a category mistake – to a confusion between politics as a site of conflict between different views of society and politics as a managerial enterprise on which experts should have the final say."

"politics is always about values, and that the liberal obsession with expertise is bound to instil resentment in those whose lives are neither materially improved nor morally relevant in the current liberal mix."

"rightwing populism is an illiberal but democratic response to an increasingly undemocratic liberalism"

"We’ve brought fact-checkers to a culture war."

Read the whole thing carefully. King has thought more deeply than many he cites. You may not agree, but i suggest you think about his argument.

https://sydneyreviewofbooks.com/peak-bullshit-post-truth/

sidd


Title: Re: RussiaGate And The Media: Examples of Good AND Bad Journalism
Post by: sidd on April 19, 2018, 02:18:56 AM
Andre Damon on the loooong history of fake news:

"Every predatory war launched by the United States against a weaker country has been waged under false pretenses. The Mexican War of 1846 was begun with the lying declaration by President Polk that Mexico “invaded our territory and shed American blood upon the American soil.” The Spanish–American War, which led to the bloody conquest of the Philippines, was egged on by the Hearst press in the textbook definition of “yellow journalism.”

The escalation of the Vietnam War was justified by lie that an American ship was attacked by the North Vietnamese in the Gulf of Tonkin."

"After years of shameless lying to justify predatory wars, the mainstream media has lost the public’s support. According to a recent poll by Monmouth University, “More than 3 in 4 Americans believe that traditional major TV and newspaper media outlets report ‘fake news.’”"

"This is what accounts for the US media’s hysteria, over the past year-and-a-half, on the need to block what they call “fake news.” "

"As former Obama administration official Samantha Power noted last year, “During the Cold War, most Americans received their news and information via mediated platforms. Reporters and editors serving in the role of professional gatekeepers had almost full control over what appeared in the media.” It is to this halcyon past—when the Western governments and their flunkies in the mainstream press were able to lie with impunity—to which the media propagandists are seeking to return."

"The real target of the censorship campaign is not “fake news,” but true news—that is, genuine journalism and independent reporting, which by its very nature contradicts the lies of the war-mongers in Washington, London and Paris."

http://www.wsws.org/en/articles/2018/04/13/pers-a13.html

sidd
Title: Re: RussiaGate And The Media: Examples of Good AND Bad Journalism
Post by: Rob Dekker on April 19, 2018, 04:18:54 AM
As usual with Bellingcat, they are jumping to conclusions. This goes for some analyses they've made of chemical attacks in Syria, at least.
Their method is to build up a disguise of credibility, but the chain of evidence is broken at vital points.

E.g., the evidence in Douma isn't clear at all, see:
https://libyancivilwar.blogspot.com.es/2018/04/cw-barrel-bomb-that-wasnt-there.html

Those gas canisters have been tampered with, moved.
And that was before the Syrian army or the Russians got there.

Review
* Midnight April 7/8, just after attack: cylinder seemingly not there
* Sometime April 8: cylinder there, unseen photos
* App. 1 pm April 8 or 9: video of cylinder there (seen frame)
* App. 3 pm April 9: Russian investigators visit, apparently find it not there (can we have video for that part?)
* 7:02 pm April 9 (presumed): video of cylinder there, but in a different position

Thanks for the link to that libyancivilwar.blogspot.com.es blog.
It's overall a fair and balanced overview of the evidence, and I like his attention to detail.

However, after new evidence came in (The Swedish TV4 recording on-site) he realized that the cylinder IS present in the first video from around midnight April 7/8. That eliminates his core argument of his blog post.

But I really like how he deals with that new evidence : He made a update 4/17 stating :

Quote
Comparing the TV4 interior view with the night-time view, something surprising happened. I debunked my own leading argument (at the moment). Guess what? It no longer leads.
and
Quote
I was stumped and disappointed about this for a minute or two. Then excited to own the inevitable destruction of this point, instead of someone else.
and
Quote
Separately, my original guess on hole correlation and thus angle of canister below were also wrong. It was a fair enough guess fom what I had, and the whole issue is now moot.

What is still standing of his post is the observation that the cylinder is moved (or replaced?), between the last picture we have before the Russians arrive, and the first picture we have after the Russians left.

We don't know who did that, but either way the evidence was tampered with between these two pictures. And we need to keep that in mind once OPCW can take a look at that cylinder.

If they ever let OPCW investigate this site.

[edit] As for your original point that this was an example of Bellingcat "jumping to conclusions", let me note that Bellingcat's evidence and theory about this attack still stands.
Title: Re: RussiaGate And The Media: Examples of Good AND Bad Journalism
Post by: sidd on April 19, 2018, 06:43:01 AM
Upon thinking about it, I consider the last two posts I made were far too general for this thread. So I created a new one called "Fake News and Society" for those interested.

sidd
Title: Re: RussiaGate And The Media: Examples of Good AND Bad Journalism
Post by: Rob Dekker on April 19, 2018, 08:33:54 AM
Quote
Now, which report is better ?

In principle on-the-ground reports are better than geolocation work connected to a bunch of assumptions (turtles all the way down). Of course, it would've been best if Western journalists would've been there right after it happened.

I always thought that a GOOD article answers as many of the "when", "where", "who", "what" and "why" questions as possible.

Fisk's article doesn't answer ANY of these questions. By his own account, he just "walked away". He never even made it to the site that Bellingcat identified, as opposed to Swedish TV4 and CBS.
https://www.tv4play.se/program/nyheterna/3967012
https://www.cbsnews.com/news/syria-inside-douma-the-site-of-apparent-chemical-attack-2018-04-16/

Bellingcat addresses ALL these questions, except the "why" question, which can never be proven imperically.
Title: Re: RussiaGate And The Media: Examples of Good AND Bad Journalism
Post by: Rob Dekker on April 21, 2018, 09:40:55 AM
being dropped from a Hip helicopter originating from Dumayr Airbase.

I don't believe Bellingcat has provided detailed evidence for this, except for two unnamed aircraft spotters. It's impossible to affirm or contest that conclusion without more information.

I'm also not sure there is sufficient evidence to show the cylinders have been dropped from the air. You said the one on the bed should be discarded. The other one on the roof, I haven't looked at properly. Are there close-up pictures of it?

I also still don't understand how it happened exactly. So, the cylinder is dropped, remains stuck in the roof, the gas comes out quickly/slowly and then spreads across the building?

Neven, if you would know the first and last name of the aircraft spotters, would that make any difference ?

In general, skepticism is healthy, but there comes a point where "war crimes denial" kicks in.

Do you understand that the alternative theory you suggest implies that numerous organizations conspired at the same time to :

1) place a cylinder in a hole on the roof of the house in question, and
2) somebody to place 34 bodies in that house, without anyone noticing, and
3) put foam on their mouths to make it look like a chemical attack, and
4) aircraft spotters to post on Sentry Syria to record 30 minutes ahead of time to report Hip helicopters to head towards Douma, and
5) doctors from the WHO conspiring to report that 500 people showed “signs and symptoms consistent with exposure to toxic chemicals”
https://www.reuters.com/article/us-mideast-crisis-syria-ghouta-who/who-500-syrian-patients-show-symptoms-pointing-to-toxic-weapons-exposure-idUSKBN1HI18D

Do you really believe that all these people conspired at the same time, in the fog of war, a perfectly orchestrated effort to implicate the Syrian government ?

Seriously ?
Title: Re: RussiaGate And The Media: Examples of Good AND Bad Journalism
Post by: Zeug Gezeugt on April 21, 2018, 09:59:19 AM
Do you really believe that all these people conspired at the same time, in the fog of war, a perfectly orchestrated effort to implicate the Syrian government ?

Seriously ?

Why not? The opposition in Douma was organised enough to build what appears to be an extensive and well defended tunnel network and hold out for half a decade against the SAA while lobbing mortars into downtown Damascus, with help from the US and its allies of course.

What makes you think organising a false flag would be too difficult for them?

There's no logic to your premise.

Seriously.
Title: Re: RussiaGate And The Media: Examples of Good AND Bad Journalism
Post by: Rob Dekker on April 21, 2018, 10:05:32 AM
Do you really believe that all these people conspired at the same time, in the fog of war, a perfectly orchestrated effort to implicate the Syrian government ?

Seriously ?

Why not? The opposition in Douma was organised enough to build what appears to be an extensive and well defended tunnel network and hold out for half a decade against the SAA while lobbing mortars into downtown Damascus, with help from the US and its allies of course.

What makes you think organising a false flag would be too difficult for them?

There's no logic to your premise.

Seriously.

You still would have to explain the 5 points that I noted above.
Title: Re: RussiaGate And The Media: Examples of Good AND Bad Journalism
Post by: Zeug Gezeugt on April 21, 2018, 10:31:12 AM
You still would have to explain the 5 points that I noted above.

Really? Why is that then?

More to the point can you explain why you think that an organisation capable of building an underground bunker complex that reportedly goes for kms while fighting a non-stop civil war against a professional army for over half a decade can't:

1) place a cylinder in a hole on the roof of the house in question, and
2) somebody to place 34 bodies in that house, without anyone noticing, and
3) put foam on their mouths to make it look like a chemical attack

I imagine they had 'aircraft spotters' at all times...

The WHO report is 'According to reports from Health Cluster partners' ... which is direct evidence that chemicals were ... reported. By sources in Douma working with the opposition. WHO also reports:

Quote
More than 70 people sheltering in basements have reportedly died, with 43 of those deaths related to symptoms consistent with exposure to highly toxic chemicals. Two health facilities were also reportedly affected by these attacks.

These are the same people reported as suffering from dust and not chemicals in Fisk's report.

Either way the WHO report is just reporting the opposition narrative. Fisk is reporting the Fisk narrative that doesn't square with it.

And you are trying to make a case for the opposition being incapable of managing a false flag. I think you're stretching yourself a bit thin though Rob.

Can you please explain your logic as I think it's rather lacking?
Title: Re: RussiaGate And The Media: Examples of Good AND Bad Journalism
Post by: SteveMDFP on April 21, 2018, 12:45:45 PM


What makes you think organising a false flag would be too difficult for them?

There's no logic to your premise.

Where's the logic in the rebels staging a false flag on themselves, just before negotiating a retreat from the city?
The alternative explanation was that they retreated in response to a chemical attack by Assad, which makes perfect sense.
Title: Re: RussiaGate And The Media: Examples of Good AND Bad Journalism
Post by: Zeug Gezeugt on April 21, 2018, 03:11:38 PM
Where's the logic in the rebels staging a false flag on themselves, just before negotiating a retreat from the city?
The alternative explanation was that they retreated in response to a chemical attack by Assad, which makes perfect sense.

Perfect is it?

Where's the logic in the SAA executing a CW attack on Jaish al-Islam at the moment of victory knowing full well it will compromise their Russian political support as well as invite a US missile attack?

In what fantasy land do you need to reside in for that to make sense? Or do you think it's yet another case of a cartoon 'evil mastermind' daring to expose the weakness of neoliberal chickenhawks?

Or was it the last play of the cards by extremists within the Douma opposition to drag the US coalition into a direct confrontation with Assad? Which is what the US threats amount to, tactically speaking, if you're in the anti-Assad camp please note all you need to do to call in a missile strike on SAA assets is to stage a CW attack. Not rocket science is it?

And Alloush had the nerve to call the FUKUS attack a 'farce'!

So what do you reckon Steve? Psycho Assad daring the west to enter the war against him for no readily apparent strategic reason? Or desperate rebels playing their only remaining card and giving the warhawks in the US admin an excuse to try and drag another weak US president into yet another Middle East disaster?

Cartoon caricatures or pragmatic realism ... what's it gonna be?
Title: Re: RussiaGate And The Media: Examples of Good AND Bad Journalism
Post by: SteveMDFP on April 21, 2018, 06:14:30 PM

Where's the logic in the SAA executing a CW attack on Jaish al-Islam at the moment of victory knowing full well it will compromise their Russian political support as well as invite a US missile attack?
 

Because the Syrian army was nowhere near victory.  The rebels in Douma had massive stores of munitions and adequate food.  Taking Douma would have taken months of very costly, very deadly block-by-block operations.  Meanwhile, the rebels were close enough to Damascus to shell the city.

As I've pointed out, this was entirely analogous to Truman's situation against Japan in the closing days of WW-II.  He could either carry on for a year or more, taking island by island, city by city--or use a weapon of mass destruction, and prompt immediate surrender.  Same decision in both cases, same outcome.

In both cases, the one using WMDs faced no credible risk of being dragged before a war crimes tribunal.  Why wouldn't they act as we know they did?
Title: Re: RussiaGate And The Media: Examples of Good AND Bad Journalism
Post by: Neven on April 21, 2018, 08:49:16 PM
In both cases, the one using WMDs faced no credible risk of being dragged before a war crimes tribunal.  Why wouldn't they act as we know they did?

I think that if Russia had nukes at the time and would have said: We'll nuke you if you nuke Japan, Truman wouldn't have nuked Japan. Truman nukes Japan to 1) show the rest of the world what the USA could do, and 2) simply test the stuff. Besides, Japan couldn't nuke itself to draw in some greater power to punish the US.

It's a weak analogy.

As for this:

Quote
Where's the logic in the rebels staging a false flag on themselves, just before negotiating a retreat from the city?

First of all, is it perhaps possible that the rebels who negotiated the retreat, aren't the same rebels who planted a false flag to get the US to shoot off missiles (assuming it was a false flag)? Perhaps one faction of rebels wanted to negotiate, and another faction said: F*** ***t, let's get the Americans involved again.

Or, maybe, if 'the rebels' are a well-organised monolith after all, the plan was to negotiate, while at the same time provoke the Americans into shooting some missiles at Assad's infrastructure, so they have time to regroup again.

Or maybe there are 'rebels' who work closely together with American intelligence agencies and get paid for this kind of work, because the attack it provoked cost at least 150 million USD for the missiles alone. That's big business. The other rebels wouldn't even have to know about this.

So, there you go, three hypothetical arguments off the top of my head to explain the logic of your argument is weak (why negotiate and do false flag at the same time).

Quote
The alternative explanation was that they retreated in response to a chemical attack by Assad, which makes perfect sense.

Perfect sense? In a following comment you say: "The Syrian army was nowhere near victory.  The rebels in Douma had massive stores of munitions and adequate food.  Taking Douma would have taken months of very costly, very deadly block-by-block operations.  Meanwhile, the rebels were close enough to Damascus to shell the city."

But just drop one or two yellow canisters in which not one rebel soldier dies, and they suddenly run away? It doesn't make sense. If Assad ordered it, it was a really, really stupid move. Somehow I don't think that someone who has held out as long, with both jihadists and the entire West against him, is stupid. So, he's a psychopath, which is entirely possible. But if I were a psychopath and I didn't care about repercussions, I'd drop tens of canisters all at once, to really scare the shit out the jihadists.

But as Rob Dekker says, we can't look into his head.  Still, I feel it doesn't make any sense for Assad to do something this stupid.

But who cares, the missiles were fired, and fortunately World War 3 didn't start. On to the next attempt.
Title: Re: RussiaGate And The Media: Examples of Good AND Bad Journalism
Post by: Neven on April 21, 2018, 09:27:47 PM
Just to be clear, Steve, I'm not saying you're wrong, I'm just saying there are many other plausible explanations besides the one provided by corporate media.
Title: Re: RussiaGate And The Media: Examples of Good AND Bad Journalism
Post by: SteveMDFP on April 21, 2018, 09:47:41 PM


I think that if Russia had nukes at the time and would have said: We'll nuke you if you nuke Japan, Truman wouldn't have nuked Japan. Truman nukes Japan to 1) show the rest of the world what the USA could do, and 2) simply test the stuff. Besides, Japan couldn't nuke itself to draw in some greater power to punish the US.

It's a weak analogy.

Weak?  You do realize that Russia was also at war with Japan, right?
There may have been multiple reasons for Truman's decision, but bringing the war to a swift conclusion was paramount.  It was a war crime, but it worked.  It worked then and it worked in Douma.

Russia has signaled its interest in keeping a foothold in Syria.  Assad knows that a chemical attack can be denied/obfuscated and he won't face serious consequences, because he enjoys Putin's strong support.
Quote
Quote
Where's the logic in the rebels staging a false flag on themselves, just before negotiating a retreat from the city?

First of all, is it perhaps possible that the rebels who negotiated the retreat, aren't the same rebels who planted a false flag to get the US to shoot off missiles (assuming it was a false flag)?  Perhaps one faction of rebels wanted to negotiate, and another faction said: F*** ***t, let's get the Americans involved again.

Or, maybe, if 'the rebels' are a well-organised monolith after all, the plan was to negotiate, while at the same time provoke the Americans into shooting some missiles at Assad's infrastructure, so they have time to regroup again.
Or maybe there are 'rebels' who work closely together with American intelligence agencies and get paid for this kind of work, because the attack it provoked cost at least 150 million USD for the missiles alone. That's big business. The other rebels wouldn't even have to know about this.

So, there you go, three hypothetical arguments off the top of my head to explain the logic of your argument is weak (why negotiate and do false flag at the same time).

Quote
The alternative explanation was that they retreated in response to a chemical attack by Assad, which makes perfect sense.

Perfect sense? In a following comment you say: "The Syrian army was nowhere near victory.  The rebels in Douma had massive stores of munitions and adequate food.  Taking Douma would have taken months of very costly, very deadly block-by-block operations.  Meanwhile, the rebels were close enough to Damascus to shell the city."

But just drop one or two yellow canisters in which not one rebel soldier dies, and they suddenly run away? It doesn't make sense.

The jihadists of Douma didn't capture the enclave and hold the residents prisoner.  They were all targets of Assad, and generally opposed to Assad.  Assad bombed Douma indiscriminately.  The fighters were, at least in their own minds, surely protecting the people there.  So yes, if the people you're trying to defend can no longer be defended, the army retreats to a more strategically useful site.  Which they did.

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If Assad ordered it, it was a really, really stupid move. Somehow I don't think that someone who has held out as long, with both jihadists and the entire West against him, is stupid. So, he's a psychopath, which is entirely possible. But if I were a psychopath and I didn't care about repercussions, I'd drop tens of canisters all at once, to really scare the shit out the jihadists.
But as Rob Dekker says, we can't look into his head.  Still, I feel it doesn't make any sense for Assad to do something this stupid.

Except it plainly wasn't stupid.  It worked pretty much as Assad might have envisioned.  He gets Douma, the fighters go far away from Damascus.  Neither Assad nor Russia face consequences that outweigh these gains.  Assad lost a few buildings, with plenty of notice for evacuating people and matériel from them.  Putin enjoys plausible deniability, though the operation wouldn't have been carried out without his assent. And a vigorous disinformation campaign reduces any risk of further damage by sowing confusion in the West.

Why else were the OPCW investigators obstructed from their work, when journalists had already been toured through the area?

Do we really think Assad and Putin are more virtuous than Truman?  Not that I'd claim Truman to be better, rather that they're probably comparable.

What stronger evidence could we realistically have of a chemical attack on Douma that we don't have now?
 
Title: Re: RussiaGate And The Media: Examples of Good AND Bad Journalism
Post by: Neven on April 21, 2018, 10:03:42 PM
Weak?  You do realize that Russia was also at war with Japan, right?
There may have been multiple reasons for Truman's decision, but bringing the war to a swift conclusion was paramount.  It was a war crime, but it worked.  It worked then and it worked in Douma.

Again, the weakness of your analogy, is that the USA was the greatest power in the world at the time. It could do anything it wanted, with zero repercussions. Assad can't do anything he wants, because there will be repercussions. Even for things that perhaps he didn't do.

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Russia has signaled its interest in keeping a foothold in Syria.  Assad knows that a chemical attack can be denied/obfuscated and he won't face serious consequences, because he enjoys Putin's strong support.

You're projecting what you would do. One canister with chlorine and sarin in it, and you wet your pants. I'm totally unconvinced that this would scare any rebel. Hundreds of canisters, maybe. But not one. The rebels would probably welcome hundreds of canisters raining down on them, because that would get Assad in some real trouble.

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Assad bombed Douma indiscriminately.  The fighters were, at least in their own minds, surely protecting the people there.  So yes, if the people you're trying to defend can no longer be defended, the army retreats to a more strategically useful site.  Which they did.

You keep contradicting yourself, Steve, and only to defend the corporate media narrative and dismiss any other plausible explanation or hypothesis.

How do you protect your people from a stronger enemy who bombs them indiscriminately, but as soon as one canister is dropped, that's it, we can't protect them anymore. They'd all be perfectly safe, if it weren't for that single blasted canister.

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Except it plainly wasn't stupid.  It worked pretty much as Assad might have envisioned.  He gets Douma, the fighters go far away from Damascus.  Neither Assad nor Russia face consequences that outweigh these gains.  Assad lost a few buildings, with plenty of notice for evacuating people and matériel from them.  Putin enjoys plausible deniability, though the operation wouldn't have been carried out without his assent. And a vigorous disinformation campaign reduces any risk of further damage by sowing confusion in the West.

Rob says we can't look into Putin's or Assad's heads, but you seem to do nothing else. It's assumption on assumption on assumption, heavily larded with what Steve would so in such and such situation.

Again, you might be right, but there's no way of knowing, and so we can't just go and pick the one theory that coincidentally is pushed and parotted by every corporate media outlet there is.

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Do we really think Assad and Putin are more virtuous than Truman?  Not that I'd claim Truman to be better, rather that they're probably comparable.

No, I don't think so, and neither do I think that the jihadists and American military-industrial complex are virtuous! So, why would you trust one over the other? Why would you choose one over the other? Because people in suits on TV who are great at reading teleprompters with a serious face and voice tell you so?

The missiles were fired, end of story. Maybe one day we'll hear what happened exactly.
Title: Re: RussiaGate And The Media: Examples of Good AND Bad Journalism
Post by: SteveMDFP on April 21, 2018, 10:37:02 PM
Weak?  You do realize that Russia was also at war with Japan, right?
There may have been multiple reasons for Truman's decision, but bringing the war to a swift conclusion was paramount.  It was a war crime, but it worked.  It worked then and it worked in Douma.

Again, the weakness of your analogy, is that the USA was the greatest power in the world at the time. It could do anything it wanted, with zero repercussions. Assad can't do anything he wants, because there will be repercussions. Even for things that perhaps he didn't do.

There's plainly a vast difference in scale.  Truman incinerated two cities, Assad gassed 40 women and children.  But Douma is also vastly smaller than all of Japan.  Accounting for relative scale, I'm not seeing the difference in tactics, risk, costs, and outcome.  Both war crimes achieved predictable strategic aims, with small costs or risks to the perpetrators.
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Russia has signaled its interest in keeping a foothold in Syria.  Assad knows that a chemical attack can be denied/obfuscated and he won't face serious consequences, because he enjoys Putin's strong support.

You're projecting what you would do. One canister with chlorine and sarin in it, and you wet your pants. I'm totally unconvinced that this would scare any rebel. Hundreds of canisters, maybe. But not one. The rebels would probably welcome hundreds of canisters raining down on them, because that would get Assad in some real trouble.

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Assad bombed Douma indiscriminately.  The fighters were, at least in their own minds, surely protecting the people there.  So yes, if the people you're trying to defend can no longer be defended, the army retreats to a more strategically useful site.  Which they did.

You keep contradicting yourself, Steve, and only to defend the corporate media narrative and dismiss any other plausible explanation or hypothesis.

How do you protect your people from a stronger enemy who bombs them indiscriminately, but as soon as one canister is dropped, that's it, we can't protect them anymore. They'd all be perfectly safe, if it weren't for that single blasted canister.
They were surviving in basements and underground tunnels, beyond the direct destructive force of most artillery.  But gas is a different thing.

No, the fighters wouldn't have been scared off by some toxic gas.  But their women and children gassed, with no way to protect them?  Of course they'd take the alternative offered to them.

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Except it plainly wasn't stupid.  It worked pretty much as Assad might have envisioned.  He gets Douma, the fighters go far away from Damascus.  Neither Assad nor Russia face consequences that outweigh these gains.  Assad lost a few buildings, with plenty of notice for evacuating people and matériel from them.  Putin enjoys plausible deniability, though the operation wouldn't have been carried out without his assent. And a vigorous disinformation campaign reduces any risk of further damage by sowing confusion in the West.

Rob says we can't look into Putin's or Assad's heads, but you seem to do nothing else. It's assumption on assumption on assumption, heavily larded with what Steve would so in such and such situation.

Again, you might be right, but there's no way of knowing, and so we can't just go and pick the one theory that coincidentally is pushed and parotted by every corporate media outlet there is.
The strategies of warfare weren't invented by Assad, Putin, or Truman.  There's no psychology involved--strategy in warfare isn't about the psychology of the actors.  There's nothing new under the sun here.

And no, it's not about being duped into a narrative pushed by corporate media.  Information from multiple kinds of sources leads to the same general conclusion.
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Do we really think Assad and Putin are more virtuous than Truman?  Not that I'd claim Truman to be better, rather that they're probably comparable.

No, I don't think so, and neither do I think that the jihadists and American military-industrial complex are virtuous! So, why would you trust one over the other? Why would you choose one over the other? Because people in suits on TV who are great at reading teleprompters with a serious face and voice tell you so?

I really don't lend a lot of credence to people in suits on TV.  Or to the pronouncements of Assad, Putin, Trump or May.
And I certainly don't think any of these events merit a military response.  The US needs to get out of Syria, ASAP.  We can't help the people there by staying.
Title: Re: RussiaGate And The Media: Examples of Good AND Bad Journalism
Post by: Neven on April 21, 2018, 11:10:09 PM
I really don't lend a lot of credence to people in suits on TV.  Or to the pronouncements of Assad, Putin, Trump or May.
And I certainly don't think any of these events merit a military response.  The US needs to get out of Syria, ASAP.  We can't help the people there by staying.

If this is really what you think, it shouldn't be difficult to be open to other explanations, instead of championing the one we see on the evening news that egged president Trump on to fire his toys.
Title: Re: RussiaGate And The Media: Examples of Good AND Bad Journalism
Post by: Zeug Gezeugt on April 22, 2018, 06:43:49 AM
In both cases, the one using WMDs faced no credible risk of being dragged before a war crimes tribunal.  Why wouldn't they act as we know they did?

Hi Steve,

Now quite aside from historical documentation pointing to Truman using nuclear weapons against an already defeated Japan on the verge of surrender in order to, in this order:

1. Test the effectiveness of nuclear weapons against actual urban targets while they still had a chance.
2. Sending a message to Stalin (this could arguably be swapped out for 1 above in order of import).
3. A very distant third and mainly for public consumption in order to justify the bombing... spare US military casualties in the invasion of the Japanese homeland isles.

It's obviously true that Truman was never going to front a war crimes tribunal before or after he set up the UN on the basis of the Nuremburg War Crimes Tribunal, or have the Whitehouse obliterated by missiles fired from an international military coalition parked off the coast in Chesapeake Bay.

On the other hand, with every White Helmet CW report Assad still faces the very real threat of a US military intervention destroying the SAA ending up with him dancing on the end of a rope like Sadam or copping a bayonet up the arse like Qadaffi.

Your historical comparison is ludicrous. What are you trying to say?
Title: Re: RussiaGate And The Media: Examples of Good AND Bad Journalism
Post by: SteveMDFP on April 22, 2018, 07:09:29 AM

On the other hand, with every White Helmet CW report Assad still faces the very real threat of a US military intervention destroying the SAA ending up with him dancing on the end of a rope like Sadam or copping a bayonet up the arse like Qadaffi.
 

It's abundantly clear that toppling Assad's regime would require direct confrontation with committed Russian forces.  Nobody's going to do that over a relative handful of dead terrorists.  Assad knows this.
Title: Re: RussiaGate And The Media: Examples of Good AND Bad Journalism
Post by: Rob Dekker on April 22, 2018, 08:01:00 AM
I really don't lend a lot of credence to people in suits on TV.  Or to the pronouncements of Assad, Putin, Trump or May.
And I certainly don't think any of these events merit a military response.  The US needs to get out of Syria, ASAP.  We can't help the people there by staying.

If this is really what you think, it shouldn't be difficult to be open to other explanations, instead of championing the one we see on the evening news that egged president Trump on to fire his toys.

With all due respect, Neven, the "other explanations" involves a LOT of people all conspiring flawlessly :

1) Somebody placing a cylinder in a hole on the roof of the house in question, and
2) Somebody to place 34 bodies (where did they get the bodies?) in that house, without anyone noticing, and
3) put foam on their mouths to make it look like a chemical attack, and
4) aircraft spotters to post on Sentry Syria to record 30 minutes ahead of time to report Hip helicopters to head towards Douma, and
5) doctors from the WHO conspiring to report that 500 people showed “signs and symptoms consistent with exposure to toxic chemicals”
https://www.reuters.com/article/us-mideast-crisis-syria-ghouta-who/who-500-syrian-patients-show-symptoms-pointing-to-toxic-weapons-exposure-idUSKBN1HI18D
and also neighbors were involved :
6) "All of a sudden some gas spread around us,"  one neighbor recounted. "We couldn't breathe, it smelled like chlorine."
https://www.cbsnews.com/news/syria-inside-douma-the-site-of-apparent-chemical-attack-2018-04-16/

There is something called "war crimes denial" and you and several other posters here are borderline there.

I know you as being respectful of facts and evidence and logic reasoning when it comes to AGW and Arctic Sea Ice, but your posts here ignoring the evidence and ignoring the reasoning, and instead following some conspiracy theory is not doing you any good.
Title: Re: RussiaGate And The Media: Examples of Good AND Bad Journalism
Post by: sidd on April 22, 2018, 09:04:48 AM
So now, disbelief of the current western storyline borders on war crimes denial, does it ? I might remark that credulity for dubious sources borders on warmongering.

Some of the borderline warmongers here might ask themselves why people who are otherwise oh, so rational when it comes to climate change, are loath to credit exhortations to war. Perhaps they see something the borderline warmongers do not ?

sidd
Title: Re: RussiaGate And The Media: Examples of Good AND Bad Journalism
Post by: Rob Dekker on April 22, 2018, 09:14:42 AM
So now, disbelief of the current western storyline borders on war crimes denial, does it ? I might remark that credulity for dubious sources borders on warmongering.

Some of the borderline warmongers here might ask themselves why people who are otherwise oh, so rational when it comes to climate change, are loath to credit exhortations to war. Perhaps they see something the borderline warmongers do not ?

sidd

As this guy puts it :
https://www.channel4.com/news/factcheck/syria-chemical-attack-the-evidence
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But to deny that a chemical weapons attack occurred at all, we would need to believe that scores of people have been involved in a vast and elaborate hoax, executed without any flaws. They would have needed to coordinate without any problems through a war-torn area, to ensure civilians, doctors, aircraft-spotters, and people on social media all came out with the right story at the right time. Plus, they needed to plant a gas canister at the right spot, and produce fake videos to such a high quality they not only fool millions across the world, but also medical experts assessing the symptoms.
Title: Re: RussiaGate And The Media: Examples of Good AND Bad Journalism
Post by: Zeug Gezeugt on April 22, 2018, 09:17:34 AM
It's abundantly clear that toppling Assad's regime would require direct confrontation with committed Russian forces.  Nobody's going to do that over a relative handful of dead terrorists.  Assad knows this.

Hillary Clinton was committed to a no-fly zone which meant war with Russia in Syria.

The recent CW false flag was used by neoconservative hawks in the US admin to push for what they want, which is war with Russian forces in Syria.

The US hegemon is facing a decisive geopolitical defeat in Syria and the only way the US hawks can now enforce that hegemonic power is ... war with Russia in Syria.

What fantasy world are you living in where the recent technically illegal missile attack by FUKUS on Syria didn't risk a war with Russia in Syria?

Do you have any idea of what is at stake here and how perilously close we are to war with Russia?

Or are you happy to argue without any logic just to make your point that Assad has some reason for using CW? No matter how ludicrous that sounds out here in the real world? No matter that all you're doing is upholding horrifically dangerous war propaganda?
Title: Re: RussiaGate And The Media: Examples of Good AND Bad Journalism
Post by: Rob Dekker on April 22, 2018, 09:29:47 AM
You just made Steve's point that Assad knew he could get away with a CW attack.
Title: Re: RussiaGate And The Media: Examples of Good AND Bad Journalism
Post by: Zeug Gezeugt on April 22, 2018, 09:35:19 AM
With all due respect, Neven, the "other explanations" involves a LOT of people all conspiring flawlessly

Seriously dude, you just copy paste and repeat now?

We've been through this already Rob on page 2 of this thread, and your contention that the opposition is somehow incapable of staging a false flag is absurdly illogical.

And in the spirit of copy paste argumentation here's me:

The opposition in Douma was organised enough to build what appears to be an extensive and well defended tunnel network and hold out for half a decade against the SAA while lobbing mortars into downtown Damascus, with help from the US and its allies of course.

What makes you think organising a false flag would be too difficult for them?

There's no logic to your premise.

Seriously.

For the rest you can just re-read my second reply at the very top of this page. (https://forum.arctic-sea-ice.net/index.php/topic,2272.msg151209.html#msg151209)

Or you can just ignore this, wash rinse and repeat your absurdities as needed, which is what you seem to be doing anyways.
Title: Re: RussiaGate And The Media: Examples of Good AND Bad Journalism
Post by: Zeug Gezeugt on April 22, 2018, 09:42:19 AM
You just made Steve's point that Assad knew he could get away with a CW attack.

Who is that in reply to? And what's your argument?

If me then you're saying that ... Assad knows he can get away with pointlessly using CW because ... all he risks is his death and the destruction of his nation state when the US finally does get around to wiping out the relatively limited Russian military presence in Syria?

Do you people even think before posting?
Title: Re: RussiaGate And The Media: Examples of Good AND Bad Journalism
Post by: Rob Dekker on April 22, 2018, 09:45:16 AM
For the rest you can just re-read my second reply at the very top of this page. (https://forum.arctic-sea-ice.net/index.php/topic,2272.msg151209.html#msg151209)

Or you can just ignore this, wash rinse and repeat your absurdities as needed, which is what you seem to be doing anyways.

OK. So despite the evidence to the contrary, you believe that this was a hoax. Thank you for your opinion. I call that war crime denial.

Neven, do your also believe this was a hoax ?
Title: Re: RussiaGate And The Media: Examples of Good AND Bad Journalism
Post by: Neven on April 22, 2018, 09:51:59 AM
You mean a hoax in the sense that nobody actually died? No, I don't think that. As for who did it, I'm not sure yet. I'll give you my thoughts on your list, even though they're absolutely worthless.
Title: Re: RussiaGate And The Media: Examples of Good AND Bad Journalism
Post by: Rob Dekker on April 22, 2018, 10:01:47 AM
If me then you're saying that ... Assad knows he can get away with pointlessly using CW because ... all he risks is his death and the destruction of his nation state when the US finally does get around to wiping out the relatively limited Russian military presence in Syria?

Do you people even think before posting?

Man, you are annoying.
You did not propose ANY reasonable argument to ANY of the 6 issues I pointed out.
Let's just take ONE : how did somebody smuggle 34 corpses into that house without being noticed ?

And why don't you STOP for a second, and explain why you so aggressively want to show that Assad did not do this, despite the overwhelming amount of evidence that he did ?
Title: Re: RussiaGate And The Media: Examples of Good AND Bad Journalism
Post by: Zeug Gezeugt on April 22, 2018, 10:04:19 AM
I call that war crime denial.

That would strictly speaking be denial of an alleged war crime, not yet denial of an actual war crime.

Unless of course like FUKUS all you need is allegations and social media reports from the armed Syrian opposition to judge Assad guilty, which is of course what you're saying.

You don't need actual evidence do you Rob? Because for some reason known only to you all you need is to repeat FUKUS allegations as fact. Without question. No matter how obviously absurd they are.

But the actual war crime here is the technically illegal FUKUS attack on Syria before the OPCW even investigates. Or do you deny its illegality? Are you now or have you ever been a war crime denier?
Title: Re: RussiaGate And The Media: Examples of Good AND Bad Journalism
Post by: Rob Dekker on April 22, 2018, 10:12:52 AM
You mean a hoax in the sense that nobody actually died? No, I don't think that. As for who did it, I'm not sure yet. I'll give you my thoughts on your list, even though they're absolutely worthless.

I think my 6 points are spot-on, but thank you.
What you are suggesting is that YES somebody died.
That means there WAS a chemical attack, but you are not sure who caused it.
So, if there WAS a chemical attack, and it was NOT Assad, then it must have been somebody else.
The evidence we have is that there was a cylinder on the roof of that house, and 34 corpses were found there.
So are you now suggesting that somebody put that cylinder there, opened the valve, and the people inside died ?
If not, then WHAT is the scenario that makes you believe that that cylinder was NOT dropped from the sky ?
Title: Re: RussiaGate And The Media: Examples of Good AND Bad Journalism
Post by: Zeug Gezeugt on April 22, 2018, 10:27:10 AM
Man, you are annoying.
Well I'm sorry Rob, but arguing with a professional philosopher can be annoying especially when you can't string a cogent argument together.

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You did not propose ANY reasonable argument to ANY of the 6 issues I pointed out.

Really?

Apart of course from the argument concerning why you think a large militia org funded by US/NATO and the gulf states couldn't put a quick false flag together. They can build large tunnel networks using huge amounts of human labour with munitions factories and hospitals etc to support an armed insurgency under siege for over half a decade etc but would be incapable of putting together a quick stage production... Can you recognise a reasonable argument when it's in print in front of your face and you're reading it?

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Let's just take ONE : how did somebody smuggle 34 corpses into that house without being noticed ?

Dunno... ummmm.... get a security team to secure the place? You'll need a bus driver to bus the actors in. Makeup and camera crew, the White Helmets have very a decent production crew so someones probably got a mate they can call a favour in.

Catering! Always important. And a morgue truck of course.

Cameras ... and .... ACTION!

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And why don't you STOP for a second, and explain why you so aggressively want to show that Assad did not do this, despite the overwhelming amount of evidence that he did ?

Because your notion of 'overwhelming evidence' is somewhat lacking. I see evidence of an obvious flase flag and I see people like you who really should have the critical faculties to go beyond simple regurgitation of what is obviously war propaganda to suit US led military intervention in the Middle East.

And it's fun tearing your blindingly stupid logic apart, you're arguments would barely pass muster in first year undergrad cultural studies here. But I think that's largely a function of just how debased our governments and their corporate media mouthpieces have become in trying to parse the insanity that's coming out of the last 3 US admins as they prosecute this neverending war on terror.

How do you explain to the hoi polloi that you're just going to kill and keep killing to maintain planetary full spectrum dominance? Like 21st C Nazis and F**K democracy and the rule of law.

Title: Re: RussiaGate And The Media: Examples of Good AND Bad Journalism
Post by: Neven on April 22, 2018, 10:35:16 AM
I'll give you my thoughts on your list, even though they're absolutely worthless.

I think my 6 points are spot-on, but thank you.

My thoughts (plural) are worthless, not your list (singular).

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What you are suggesting is that YES somebody died.
That means there WAS a chemical attack, but you are not sure who caused it.
So, if there WAS a chemical attack, and it was NOT Assad, then it must have been somebody else.

Yes,  a rebel faction and/or western intelligence.

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The evidence we have is that there was a cylinder on the roof of that house, and 34 corpses were found there.
So are you now suggesting that somebody put that cylinder there, opened the valve, and the people inside died ?

That's a possibility. It's also possible that the people were killed elsewhere with chemicals, and then put into the house.

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If not, then WHAT is the scenario that makes you believe that that cylinder was NOT dropped from the sky ?

I don't believe anything. I just don't like how the 'truth' is immediately known, gets spread via social media, 'picked up' by corporate/mainstream news media, resulting in missiles worth 100-200 millions of USD being fired, potentially killing more innocent people. That's not how a trial should work. You don't shoot from the hip, ask questions later.
Title: Re: RussiaGate And The Media: Examples of Good AND Bad Journalism
Post by: Neven on April 22, 2018, 10:56:01 AM
With all due respect, Neven, the "other explanations" involves a LOT of people all conspiring flawlessly :

1) Somebody placing a cylinder in a hole on the roof of the house in question, and

That's easy.

I've also been wondering how it works exactly with a canister dropped from a certain height, punching a hole in a concrete roof (but not falling through), ending up perfectly above the hole with the valve pointing down. Was the gas released immediately or did it seep out, making its way through the building?

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2) Somebody to place 34 bodies (where did they get the bodies?) in that house, without anyone noticing, and

That's more difficult, but not impossible to do. It's a war zone, not like thousands of people are living in that street.

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3) put foam on their mouths to make it look like a chemical attack, and

If you've brought the bodies in from elsewhere, you might have poisoned them elsewhere as well.

Have the bodies already been identified? I think it was Terry who said that certain ethnic groups have been used by jihadists as hostages/shields.

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4) aircraft spotters to post on Sentry Syria to record 30 minutes ahead of time to report Hip helicopters to head towards Douma, and

It's enough to just say 'aircraft spotters saw this and that'. Why in this day and age, when people film BUK transporters from their apartments, isn't there any footage of said helicopters? Or is there and I haven't seen it?

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5) doctors from the WHO conspiring to report that 500 people showed “signs and symptoms consistent with exposure to toxic chemicals”
https://www.reuters.com/article/us-mideast-crisis-syria-ghouta-who/who-500-syrian-patients-show-symptoms-pointing-to-toxic-weapons-exposure-idUSKBN1HI18D
and also neighbors were involved :

The number of victims vary wildly (http://libyancivilwar.blogspot.co.at/2018/04/douma-cw-massacre-see-sawing-death-toll.html). How reliable is this? The Fisk article

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6) "All of a sudden some gas spread around us,"  one neighbor recounted. "We couldn't breathe, it smelled like chlorine."
https://www.cbsnews.com/news/syria-inside-douma-the-site-of-apparent-chemical-attack-2018-04-16/

If the neighbour had said the opposite, would it have been reported by CBS? What do other neighbours say?

Back in the Bush days, I was working for a Dutch news agency. At some point one of those terrorist leaders in the deck of cards had allegedly been bombed by a US stealth fighter. The Pentagon showed footage of the bombing and of the house that was destroyed, and so everybody dutifully reported. But there was footage of the neighbours as well, who said American soldiers had come at night and detonated the empty building. I said to the editor: Why don't you put this in the segment, sounds very newsworthy to me. The editor replied: No time, and besides, what do those guys know that the Pentagon and CNN don't?

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There is something called "war crimes denial" and you and several other posters here are borderline there.

You do the exact same thing in the US intervention thread.

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I know you as being respectful of facts and evidence and logic reasoning when it comes to AGW and Arctic Sea Ice, but your posts here ignoring the evidence and ignoring the reasoning, and instead following some conspiracy theory is not doing you any good.

AGW and Arctic sea ice loss are based on science, I can look at data myself, look at satellite imagery, read papers, attend conferences, interview scientists. This stuff is much more murky and prone to bias distortion due to massive propaganda from all directions.

It can be interesting to treat this as some murder mystery that needs be solved, but in the end, the details don't matter that much (even though they're horrific). What this is all about, is about groups of people doing whatever they can to increase their piece of the pie of concentrated wealth, either because they own some part of it, or because they get rewarded for making it bigger. We are not part of these groups (although we are unwittingly and unwantingly complicit in their actions), but they will make us think we are by dividing us.

So, how do we not get caught up in the false choice between monsters like Putin/Assad and US Empire?
Title: Re: RussiaGate And The Media: Examples of Good AND Bad Journalism
Post by: Niall Dollard on April 22, 2018, 12:16:21 PM
Excellent first hand account of what's happening inside Syria by Carla Ortiz on the Jimmy Dore show:

https://youtu.be/DCu8mNC1JyE
Title: Re: RussiaGate And The Media: Examples of Good AND Bad Journalism
Post by: zizek on April 22, 2018, 01:37:57 PM
The White Helmets retreated to Idlib after Dhouma.  I wonder why?

https://www.wsj.com/articles/as-islamic-state-fades-in-syria-another-militant-group-takes-root-1524064045
Title: Re: RussiaGate And The Media: Examples of Good AND Bad Journalism
Post by: Neven on April 22, 2018, 02:01:32 PM
Excellent first hand account of what's happening inside Syria by Carla Ortiz on the Jimmy Dore show:

This video is a lot better than I initially thought it would be.
Title: Re: RussiaGate And The Media: Examples of Good AND Bad Journalism
Post by: SteveMDFP on April 22, 2018, 03:24:09 PM

Quote
Let's just take ONE : how did somebody smuggle 34 corpses into that house without being noticed ?
Dunno... ummmm.... get a security team to secure the place? You'll need a bus driver to bus the actors in. Makeup and camera crew, the White Helmets have very a decent production crew so someones probably got a mate they can call a favour in.

Catering! Always important. And a morgue truck of course.

Cameras ... and .... ACTION!

Well, this is a common enough conspiracy theory about the attack.  It's been debunked before:

Proof the White Helmets ‘Staged’ a Chemical Attack in Syria?
https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/is-this-proof-white-helmets-staged-chemical-attack/ (https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/is-this-proof-white-helmets-staged-chemical-attack/)

Images purportedly proving that the White Helmets staged a chemical attack in Syria are actually stills from a movie set.
A volunteer group of search and rescue workers called the Syria Civil Defense group — better known as the White Helmets — is frequently subjected to unfounded conspiracy theories, such as the claim that the group “stages” various acts of violence using “crisis actors.”

These accusations were superficially bolstered by a set of images which purportedly showed the group staging a chemical attack in Douma, Syria in April 2018.
. . .
Although these images do feature actors, they are not of the “crisis” variety. These photographs were taken on the set of the Syrian movie “فيلم رجل الثورة” or Revolution Man, and they have been on the Internet since at least 24 February 2018 (more than a month before the alleged chemical attack in Douma) when they were posted to the movie’s Facebook page.

The belief that the White Helmets or similar groups are staging chemical attacks in Syria is not one exclusively held by conspiracy theorists or the uninformed. It is parroting Syrian leader Bashar al-Assad’s line that crisis actors were used to stage a terrorist attack in April 2017 and claims that a photograph of a young child in the aftermath of an airstrike on Aleppo had been forged. Assad’s regime also denied using chemical weapons in Douma. "
Title: Re: RussiaGate And The Media: Examples of Good AND Bad Journalism
Post by: sidd on April 22, 2018, 11:00:45 PM
Brava!

Ortiz is impressive. I hope she survives. Her closer was very good: "If we don't know who we are killing, we will keep killing them, but if we investigate the ones we are killing we would never allow any more death."

Thank you for the link Mr. Dollard.

sidd
Title: Re: RussiaGate And The Media: Examples of Good AND Bad Journalism
Post by: sidd on April 22, 2018, 11:41:05 PM
The spectacle of an international audience tutored about war crime denial by residents of a nation whose last ten presidents have been war criminals is quite ... edifying.

sidd
Title: Re: RussiaGate And The Media: Examples of Good AND Bad Journalism
Post by: Neven on April 22, 2018, 11:54:05 PM
CNN doing some really bad journalism, smearing an independent progressive media outlet:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tYM7Ju-YXmE

I hope Dore sues the hell out of those warmongers.
Title: Re: RussiaGate And The Media: Examples of Good AND Bad Journalism
Post by: Rob Dekker on April 23, 2018, 04:06:45 AM
CNN doing some really bad journalism, smearing an independent progressive media outlet:
...
I hope Dore sues the hell out of those warmongers.

I actually watched the first 12 minutes of that video.

In the first 5 minutes, we see two clips of a few seconds each from John Kerry as secretary of state on CSPAN. So that must have been somewhere beteen 2013 and 2017. Dore does not say when, nor does he explain what his point is with these clips.

Then at 5:00 he talks about Youtube demonetizing his video channel, but it's not clear if his channel was actually demonetized or not. Was it ? If so, when ? and since I still get an ad before I can watch the crap that Dore is telling, apparently his channel is currently NOT demonetized.

Then he shows that CNN has found that YouTube has run ads for Neo-Nazi groups and such.
But somehow he believes that that CNN article applies to Dore's channel ?
Weird.

It gets REALLY weird at about 11 min, when he starts to defend Alex Jones' infowars.com for promoting a "mainstream" position.

Overall, it is a smearing piece against CNN.

Neven, next time, if you think a piece that CNN does is not good journalism, just show the piece. Not something filtered through Dore's obfuscation voice.
Title: Re: RussiaGate And The Media: Examples of Good AND Bad Journalism
Post by: Rob Dekker on April 23, 2018, 05:25:58 AM
With all due respect, Neven, the "other explanations" involves a LOT of people all conspiring flawlessly :

1) Somebody placing a cylinder in a hole on the roof of the house in question, and

That's easy.

I've also been wondering how it works exactly with a canister dropped from a certain height, punching a hole in a concrete roof (but not falling through), ending up perfectly above the hole with the valve pointing down. Was the gas released immediately or did it seep out, making its way through the building?

It is pretty plausible that the cylinder knocked a hole in the concrete, but did not go through.
In this picture, you can see that at least one piece of rebar did not break :

(https://3.bp.blogspot.com/-zFf1AArw4ns/WtvmcJkaNqI/AAAAAAAAGcI/dzt42TI57VYrH_KoS6tSmcF3O2HlsPznACLcBGAs/s1600/4-7-18%2Bcylinder%2B2%2BTV4%2B1.jpg)
and you can get a good view from inside the house up into that hole from this video by Swedish channel 4 :
https://www.tv4play.se/program/nyheterna/3967012
which seems to show that two pieces of rebar prevent the cylinder from sliding down.

In that same segment, TV4 also interviews an eye witness.
However, my Swedish is not what it should be, so I don't know what he is saying.
Something about gas coming out of the house ?

Regarding the cylinder "ending up perfectly above the hole with the valve pointing down. " that may very well be a simple case of being very unfortunate. There may be other cylinders thrown but they did not get the attention because they did not cause any deaths. (The cylinder on the bed comes to mind).

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2) Somebody to place 34 bodies (where did they get the bodies?) in that house, without anyone noticing, and

That's more difficult, but not impossible to do. It's a war zone, not like thousands of people are living in that street.

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3) put foam on their mouths to make it look like a chemical attack, and

If you've brought the bodies in from elsewhere, you might have poisoned them elsewhere as well.

Wow. So you don't have a problem with the conspiracy theory that some people in the opposition will actually gas 34 people, then bring them to a house, where they display them, all the time coordinating with all the other groups in a monumental staging event, but you DO have a problem with the straightforward theory that Assad military tossed that cylinder out of a helicopter. Even though Assad did that many, many times before.

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Have the bodies already been identified? I think it was Terry who said that certain ethnic groups have been used by jihadists as hostages/shields.


I don't think they have been identified yet.
In fact, it is unclear where the victims from this house are right now.
Here is one report by the Telegraph that the bodies were buried to preserve them for later chemical analysis.
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2018/04/21/bodies-douma-gas-victims-secretly-buried-desperate-bid-preserve/

Either way, I hope that the OPCW can have access to these bodies.
Not to mention the next of kin.

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4) aircraft spotters to post on Sentry Syria to record 30 minutes ahead of time to report Hip helicopters to head towards Douma, and

It's enough to just say 'aircraft spotters saw this and that'. Why in this day and age, when people film BUK transporters from their apartments, isn't there any footage of said helicopters? Or is there and I haven't seen it?

Any footage of any aircraft would be a dead give-away of the location of the spotters. Or do you think Syrian/Russian intelligence cannot do geo-location like Bellingcat does ?
And if they would only show the helicopter without surrounding, nobody could do geo-location, so it does not add any information to simply reporting the helicopters left and in which direction they headed.

The crucial part is of course that reported this 30 min BEFORE the attack, so if they were not telling the truth they must have been part of the conspiracy that you seem to promote.

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5) doctors from the WHO conspiring to report that 500 people showed “signs and symptoms consistent with exposure to toxic chemicals”
https://www.reuters.com/article/us-mideast-crisis-syria-ghouta-who/who-500-syrian-patients-show-symptoms-pointing-to-toxic-weapons-exposure-idUSKBN1HI18D
and also neighbors were involved :

The number of victims vary wildly (http://libyancivilwar.blogspot.co.at/2018/04/douma-cw-massacre-see-sawing-death-toll.html). How reliable is this? The Fisk article

Something seems to be cut-off here in your response.
Point is, that is 500 people reported to WHO medical facilities with “signs and symptoms consistent with exposure to toxic chemicals”, then 500 people must be part of your conspiracy theory, or WHO itself is lying, so WHO must be part of the conspiracy.

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6) "All of a sudden some gas spread around us,"  one neighbor recounted. "We couldn't breathe, it smelled like chlorine."
https://www.cbsnews.com/news/syria-inside-douma-the-site-of-apparent-chemical-attack-2018-04-16/

If the neighbour had said the opposite, would it have been reported by CBS? What do other neighbours say?

There is no reason to assume that CBS would not report it if the neighbors they interviewed would have said anything else than what they did.
Or is CBS now also part of your conspiracy theory ?

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Back in the Bush days, I was working for a Dutch news agency. At some point one of those terrorist leaders in the deck of cards had allegedly been bombed by a US stealth fighter. The Pentagon showed footage of the bombing and of the house that was destroyed, and so everybody dutifully reported. But there was footage of the neighbours as well, who said American soldiers had come at night and detonated the empty building. I said to the editor: Why don't you put this in the segment, sounds very newsworthy to me. The editor replied: No time, and besides, what do those guys know that the Pentagon and CNN don't?

I don't know the specifics here, but it seems rather unlikely to me that American soldiers would be on the ground blowing up a building when they can simple do that from the air.
And they even showed the footage of them doing just that.

So the eye witness account does not make sense in this case.

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There is something called "war crimes denial" and you and several other posters here are borderline there.

You do the exact same thing in the US intervention thread.

That is a low-blow. And not true.
In the US intervention thread some posted statements without any evidence. And I called them out.
In this thread there is evidence, but you don't want to accept the statements that come with it.

So it is the OPPOSITE here, not "the exact same" thing, as to what happened in the US intervention thread.

I am very easily convinced by evidence, and I am always highly skeptical if there is no evidence.
I guess it's the scientist in me.

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I know you as being respectful of facts and evidence and logic reasoning when it comes to AGW and Arctic Sea Ice, but your posts here ignoring the evidence and ignoring the reasoning, and instead following some conspiracy theory is not doing you any good.

AGW and Arctic sea ice loss are based on science, I can look at data myself, look at satellite imagery, read papers, attend conferences, interview scientists. This stuff is much more murky and prone to bias distortion due to massive propaganda from all directions.

It can be interesting to treat this as some murder mystery that needs be solved, but in the end, the details don't matter that much (even though they're horrific). What this is all about, is about groups of people doing whatever they can to increase their piece of the pie of concentrated wealth, either because they own some part of it, or because they get rewarded for making it bigger. We are not part of these groups (although we are unwittingly and unwantingly complicit in their actions), but they will make us think we are by dividing us.

So, how do we not get caught up in the false choice between monsters like Putin/Assad and US Empire?

To know who the monsters are, follow the evidence. Not some far-out conspiracy theory. Please.
Title: Re: RussiaGate And The Media: Examples of Good AND Bad Journalism
Post by: sidd on April 23, 2018, 05:48:58 AM
"Or is CBS now also part of your conspiracy theory ?'

Yes.

sidd




Title: Re: RussiaGate And The Media: Examples of Good AND Bad Journalism
Post by: sidd on April 23, 2018, 05:56:47 AM
Re:"But somehow he believes that that CNN article applies to Dore's channel ?"

It names him. As one might have found if one had watched and listened to the show to completion. Jimmy took the trouble to read it out loud while displaying it on the screen.

CNN hatchet piece on, among others, Dore:

"If the channels are monetized -- which InfoWars has previously claimed they are -- the major newspapers could have unknowingly supported disinformation and conspiracy.

Ads also appeared on The Jimmy Dore Show channel, a far-left YouTube channel that peddles conspiracy theories, such as the idea that Syrian chemical weapons attacks are hoaxes."

http://money.cnn.com/2018/04/19/technology/youtube-ads-extreme-content-investigation/index.html

Screw CNN.

Demonetizing a Youtube video mean rendering it ineligible for ad display (and revenue.) Dore gets screwed every day, and so do a whole buncha others.

You know, screw Youtube too. Owned by google. Crowdfund and bittorrent instead, until they shut down your payment channels (like wikileaks) and indict you, and then take the funding and distribution underground.They cant shut down tor or I2P or all the rest, lil late for that.

I suspect the next step against wikileaks  will be to seize wikileaks domain names, at which point they will be entirely onion based,. Assange musta seen this coming, lets hope he yet has competent help to execute the shift, since he is irendered incommunicado by craven new Eucador admin.

sidd
Title: Re: RussiaGate And The Media: Examples of Good AND Bad Journalism
Post by: Rob Dekker on April 23, 2018, 07:07:01 AM
Re:"But somehow he believes that that CNN article applies to Dore's channel ?"

It names him. As one might have found if one had watched and listened to the show to completion.

 Jimmy took the trouble to read it out loud while displaying it on the screen.

Yeah. Sorry, but at which point did Dore reference the source of the CNN piece he was attacking ?
I can't stand Dore for more than 5 min, so my 12 min into the video was a record, and it certainly was not in these first 12 minutes.

In GOOD reporting of an attack piece the FIRST thing you do is GIVE A REFERENCE !

Which makes Dore's piece NOT good journalism, by definition.

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Ads also appeared on The Jimmy Dore Show channel, a far-left YouTube channel that peddles conspiracy theories, such as the idea that Syrian chemical weapons attacks are hoaxes."

http://money.cnn.com/2018/04/19/technology/youtube-ads-extreme-content-investigation/index.html

Screw CNN.

It's actually SPOT ON by CNN.
Dore frequently peddles conspiracy theories, most of them quite similar to what Alex Jones is venting on infowars.com.

As I pointed out before, extreme left and extreme right seem to tell the same stories and believe the same conspiracy theories.

Like the political spectrum is really a circle, where extremes connect.
Title: Re: RussiaGate And The Media: Examples of Good AND Bad Journalism
Post by: Rob Dekker on April 23, 2018, 07:21:00 AM
"Or is CBS now also part of your conspiracy theory ?'

Yes.

sidd

OK. So who is in this conspiracy theory so far ?
We have :
- The White Helmets,
- 500 locals,
- local medical staff,
- aircraft spotters,
- the WHO,
- CBS,
- Swedish channel 4,

Did I forget anyone ? How about the CIA and MI6 ? I'm sure they will feel left-out if your don't include them in your ever less likely conspiracy theory that the Douma chemical attack was a hoax or a false flag attack (by the way, did you guys make your mind up which one it was : A hoax or false flag ?). Can't be both.
Title: Re: RussiaGate And The Media: Examples of Good AND Bad Journalism
Post by: Human Habitat Index on April 23, 2018, 08:46:39 AM
"Or is CBS now also part of your conspiracy theory ?'

Yes.

sidd

OK. So who is in this conspiracy theory so far ?
We have :
- The White Helmets,
- 500 locals,
- local medical staff,
- aircraft spotters,
- the WHO,
- CBS,
- Swedish channel 4,

Did I forget anyone ? How about the CIA and MI6 ? I'm sure they will feel left-out if your don't include them in your ever less likely conspiracy theory that the Douma chemical attack was a hoax or a false flag attack (by the way, did you guys make your mind up which one it was : A hoax or false flag ?). Can't be both.

It's a much more extensive that that, you have just scratched the surface.
Title: Re: RussiaGate And The Media: Examples of Good AND Bad Journalism
Post by: Rob Dekker on April 23, 2018, 09:23:52 AM
It's a much more extensive that that, you have just scratched the surface.

Oh ! That sounds exciting.
Would you care to elaborate which other organizations are part of this conspiracy ?
Title: Re: RussiaGate And The Media: Examples of Good AND Bad Journalism
Post by: Hefaistos on April 23, 2018, 09:52:51 AM
I posted this in another thread, but now see that the Douma attack is discussed here, so crosspost:

German public TV ZDF says the Douma attack was staged by the jihadists.
"The scene of the attack, which allegedly took place on April 7, was in fact the “command post” of a local Islamist group, the reporter said, citing the witnesses he was able to speak to at the refugee camp.... according to the locals, the militants brought canisters containing chlorine to the area and “actually waited for the Syrian Air Force to bomb the place, which was of particular interest for them.”

As the Syrian forces eventually struck the place, which was apparently a high-priority military target, the chlorine canisters exploded. The locals also told Gack that it is not the first such provocation in Douma that was staged by the militants.

According to other witness accounts, the militants deliberately exposed people to chemical agents during what they called “training exercises” then filmed it and later presented as an “evidence” of the alleged chemical attack in Douma.
The reporter then said he could not verify the people’s statements and cannot say if they are all true but called them quite “convincing” "
Interview in German:
https://www.zdf.de/nachrichten/heute-19-uhr/videos/zitat-sgs-gack-syrien-100.html
Article:
https://www.rt.com/news/424832-douma-attack-german-media/

Also, there is a thorough analysis of the attack site, and setting up the false flag attack here:
https://libyancivilwar.blogspot.se/2018/04/cw-barrel-bomb-that-wasnt-there.html

Review (updated 4/21)
* Unknown day before April 7: damage probably caused by something other than the cylinder (it's not there yet)
* Midnight April 7/8, just after attack: cylinder seemingly there now
* Sometime April 8: cylinder there, unseen photos
* App. 1 pm April 8 or 9: video of cylinder there (seen frame)
* App. 3 pm April 9: Russian investigators visit, apparently find it not there (can we have video for that part?)
* 7:02 pm April 9 (presumed): video of cylinder there, but in a different position, rotated and angled differently
* Thereafter: so far it appears to have stayed in the second position
Title: Re: RussiaGate And The Media: Examples of Good AND Bad Journalism
Post by: Neven on April 23, 2018, 09:56:31 AM
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Wow. So you don't have a problem with the conspiracy theory that some people in the opposition will actually gas 34 people, then bring them to a house, where they display them, all the time coordinating with all the other groups in a monumental staging event, but you DO have a problem with the straightforward theory that Assad military tossed that cylinder out of a helicopter. Even though Assad did that many, many times before.

I have a problem with the 'judicial process', where people or entities are convicted via social media and corporate media (which has a clear war bias), and then missiles to the worth of 150-200 million USD are fired off, possibly causing further escalations that the world can't afford.

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The crucial part is of course that reported this 30 min BEFORE the attack, so if they were not telling the truth they must have been part of the conspiracy that you seem to promote.

Look, I'm not promoting any particular conspiracy theory, like you seem to be. I'm just trying to make clear that things can be explained in different ways, dots can be connected in different ways, narratives can be shaped in different ways. Especially if there's a combination of little information and lots of bias. Not to mention the fact that there are plenty of bad people who have an interest in this, and all they want, is for enough of the masses to rally behind them, so they can keep doing what they're doing.

If you're fine with how this all worked out, without any due process, and think there's enough of a basis to bomb another country (breaking international laws along the way), by an idiot at the trigger like Donald Trump no less, you're creating precedents for even worse stuff along the way.

What if it turns out it was all staged by Islamist extremists? How would you feel about all these conversations? And about the journalism involved?
Title: Re: RussiaGate And The Media: Examples of Good AND Bad Journalism
Post by: sedziobs on April 23, 2018, 03:36:31 PM
If you're fine with how this all worked out, without any due process, and think there's enough of a basis to bomb another country (breaking international laws along the way), by an idiot at the trigger like Donald Trump no less, you're creating precedents for even worse stuff along the way.
I don't think Rob or anyone else here is fine with how this all worked out.  It's possible to both analyze evidence as it's presented AND to disagree with the response of the US, UK and France. 

As I have shown before, the standard position of the establishment left has been to acquire further information.  The standard position of the far left and the far right is for non-intervention.  It is my opinion that you have a poor understanding of US politics and media because your exposure is largely filtered through the selective far left lens of Jimmy Dore.  Again, I'm not passing judgment on his views.  I'm simply saying that you are not going to get an accurate representation of US politics and media by only watching his show.
Title: Re: RussiaGate And The Media: Examples of Good AND Bad Journalism
Post by: Buddy on April 23, 2018, 04:09:10 PM
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I'm simply saying that you are not going to get an accurate representation of US politics and media by only watching his show.

So....you're saying that someone should watch not only that segment of media that agrees with his/her own position, but he/she should also watch some "main stream media" as well as "far right media" in order to see what is really out there.

What a great idea.  Actually SEE all angles of the issue before jumping in....and NOT trusting someone to tell you what "the other side" is really saying, but instead....actually view it yourself.

BIAS is a BIG ISSUE....whether we are talking about politics, economics, or the style of house you like.  We ALL have biases (Go Ducks!).  But it is CRITICAL to understand that..... and not get swallowed by our bias.

BIAS:
  a particular tendency, trend, inclination, feeling, or opinion, especially one that is preconceived or unreasoned.
Title: Re: RussiaGate And The Media: Examples of Good AND Bad Journalism
Post by: wili on April 23, 2018, 04:30:20 PM
But some 'far right' media will leave you less informed than...watching no news at all!

http://www.businessinsider.com/study-watching-fox-news-makes-you-less-informed-than-watching-no-news-at-all-2012-5
Title: Re: RussiaGate And The Media: Examples of Good AND Bad Journalism
Post by: Buddy on April 23, 2018, 05:02:01 PM
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But some 'far right' media will leave you less informed than...watching no news at all!

FOR SURE....

BUT.... its STILL good to watch some of it..... so you can see for yourself that (1) they aren't using FACTS/SCIENCE/et, and (2) you can see for yourself just how bad/untruthful/misleading they are.

Always look for the truth ...... even if it hurts... :)
Title: Re: RussiaGate And The Media: Examples of Good AND Bad Journalism
Post by: Neven on April 23, 2018, 05:07:02 PM
I don't think Rob or anyone else here is fine with how this all worked out.  It's possible to both analyze evidence as it's presented AND to disagree with the response of the US, UK and France.
 

Fair enough, but I think you should let Rob speak for himself. There are plenty of people who are convinced that Assad is responsible for the chemical attack, and thus anything goes. I don't agree with the argument, but one can make it.

To go through the attack itself is sort of interesting as a mystery that needs to be solved, but we could be doing that every day because this kind of atrocities happen every day, all around the world. Personally, I'm more interested in how it fits in the bigger picture of things. It's interesting to talk about how much ice melted in the Bering Sea Okhotsk today, but in the end it's AGW we want to know about.

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As I have shown before, the standard position of the establishment left has been to acquire further information.  The standard position of the far left and the far right is for non-intervention.


This is all a bit vague, and sounds a bit like lefty-bashing (by equating them with nazi sympathisers). Is the establishment left actually left, or only when it comes to identity politics? And of course, the corporate media is quite clearly pushing for war, as it always has.

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It is my opinion that you have a poor understanding of US politics and media because your exposure is largely filtered through the selective far left lens of Jimmy Dore.  Again, I'm not passing judgment on his views.  I'm simply saying that you are not going to get an accurate representation of US politics and media by only watching his show.

Jimmy Dore is maybe 10-20% of that I watch, and I read quite a bit as well. I wouldn't call him far left. He's not a communist or something. Unless demanding universal health care, free college, a livable wage, ending the wars, regulating Wall Street, is 'far left'. I believe that in the US 'far left' is used pejoratively, which is why politics has shifted so far to the right.

Maybe I have a poor understanding of US politics and media, but as an outsider I might have a better perspective on conditioned memes that Americans are unaware of (exceptionalism, militarism, what actually constitutes right and (far) left). Don't forget that I have been indoctrinated all my life with American cultural imperialism.
Title: Re: RussiaGate And The Media: Examples of Good AND Bad Journalism
Post by: SteveMDFP on April 23, 2018, 05:12:17 PM
Don't forget that I have been indoctrinated all my life with American cultural imperialism.

Clearly, our hegemonic imperial cultural indoctrination has failed in your case.

;-)
Title: Re: RussiaGate And The Media: Examples of Good AND Bad Journalism
Post by: Neven on April 23, 2018, 05:28:58 PM
Every advantage has its advantage, as JC was wont to say.  ;)
Title: Re: RussiaGate And The Media: Examples of Good AND Bad Journalism
Post by: sedziobs on April 23, 2018, 05:41:25 PM
Indeed I should let Rob speak for himself.  I haven't noted him showing any support for the missile strikes against Syria though.  Maybe he has and I missed it.  Until he does that, I don't think it's fair to assume he is a warmonger.

I'm not equating Dore with Nazi sympathizers.  Nazis are beyond simply far right.  They are an extreme fringe group.  The Tea Party/Freedom Caucus is what I consider far right, as it represents a sizeable portion of the population.  On the left, I would say communists or anarchists are the rough equivalent to Nazi sympathizers.  Dore and socialists are far left in the US, but still represent a sizeable contingent.

I'm glad that Jimmy Dore is only a small portion of your media consumption, and I apologize for suggesting otherwise.  The CNN segment was rather ridiculous to me.  He was bent out of shape by one sentence at the very end of a lengthy article pointing out that some advertisers were paying for spots on programs they weren't aware of.  The description of Dore as a far left site that pushes conspiracy theories is a fair characterization in my view.  It doesn't mean he's wrong.

Title: Re: RussiaGate And The Media: Examples of Good AND Bad Journalism
Post by: Neven on April 23, 2018, 05:46:53 PM
If the establishment left isn't communist, anarchist or socialist, then ask yourself: What is it?

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I'm glad that Jimmy Dore is only a small portion of your media consumption, and I apologize for suggesting otherwise.

No problem. I think Jimmy Dore isn't pushing that many conspiracy theories, a term that is devoid meaning, as it is mostly used to as a dog whistle nowadays, to cover up for the real conspiracies. What Jimmy Dore is doing most of all, is showing how establishment politics is failing and why. You can say whatever you like about him, but he's quite an astute observer and analyst when it comes to the larger picture. And he doesn't play games, being very clear about what he stands for.

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The CNN segment was rather ridiculous to me.  He was bent out of shape by one sentence at the very end of a lengthy article pointing out that some advertisers were paying for spots on programs they weren't aware of.

How would you react if they equate you to nazis and pedophiles? Of course, he's happy they did so, because it will make him stronger and he probably can sue CNN for slander.

Even people who are more moderate left and dislike Dore for being so outspoken, thought it wasn't fair to describe Dore the way the CNN reporter did.

Here's Sam Seder:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N0Z-ipiz7s0

But Cenk Uygur really nails what CNN is doing here:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fte9Q0REVpM

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The description of Dore as a far left site that pushes conspiracy theories is a fair characterization in my view.  It doesn't mean he's wrong.

It's not a fair description because a) he does much more than that, and b) doubting mainstream narratives isn't the same as pushing conspiracy theories. You can disagree with his style, or whatever, but Dore has quite a firm grasp of the systemic problems the US is facing.

And the establishment 'left' isn't going to solve them. Quite the contrary, they're part of the problem, some of them consciously so.
Title: Re: RussiaGate And The Media: Examples of Good AND Bad Journalism
Post by: Neven on April 23, 2018, 06:08:27 PM
As for independent media I like to watch, that's an example of rather good journalism IMO, and that should be more accessible than Jimmy Dore:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NLoSQuxBtiU
Title: Re: RussiaGate And The Media: Examples of Good AND Bad Journalism
Post by: sedziobs on April 23, 2018, 08:33:19 PM
If the establishment left isn't communist, anarchist or socialist, then ask yourself: What is it?
This is exactly my point.  In Europe, socialism is mainstream/establishment left.  In the US, it is not.  The official Democratic platform is one that promotes many left wing policies, but stops well short of socialism: https://www.democrats.org/party-platform (https://www.democrats.org/party-platform)

Those policies are largely left wing, as seen in this chart: https://informationisbeautiful.net/visualizations/left-vs-right-us/ (https://informationisbeautiful.net/visualizations/left-vs-right-us/)

But passages like this one differ quite a bit from socialism and the European left:
Quote
We believe our military should be the best-trained, best-equipped fighting force in the world, and that we must do everything we can to honor and support our veterans. And we know that only the United States can mobilize common action on a truly global scale, to take on the challenges that transcend borders, from international terrorism to climate change to health pandemics.

Quote
How would you react if they equate you to nazis and pedophiles? Of course, he's happy they did so, because it will make him stronger and he probably can sue CNN for slander.
I don't think good journalists should be flinging mud at each other (CNN included).  The CNN article was not a hit piece on Dore, even though it did mention him negatively (which they probably should not have done).  Responding with a rant like that and threatening to sue tells me that Dore is reactionary and immature, at least in this case.  He claims it's about journalism, not money, while his complaint is against a smear aimed at demonetizing his channel.  Seems incredibly hypocritical, especially considering that he brought this same demonetizing issue up last year.

Quote
Even people who are more moderate left and dislike Dore for being so outspoken, thought it wasn't fair to describe Dore the way the CNN reporter did.
The moderate left dislikes Dore because he's socialist, not because he's outspoken.  And of course you'll find individual opinions that cross political lines.  Cenk Uygur is definitely not moderate left though.

Quote
It's not a fair description because a) he does much more than that, and b) doubting mainstream narratives isn't the same as pushing conspiracy theories. You can disagree with his style, or whatever, but Dore has quite a firm grasp of the systemic problems the US is facing.
He is indeed pushing the same conspiracy as many in these threads.  Doubting the mainstream narrative is not necessarily the same as pushing conspiracy theories.  But claiming a hoax or a false flag is pushing a conspiracy.  And again, he could be right.  But the CNN statement is entirely factual if 1) hoaxes and false flags are considered conspiracies and 2) his show promotes far left viewpoints.  I agree that the statement was unprofessional and unwise.  But calling it slander and threatening to sue is right out of the Monckton or Trump playbook.

Quote
And the establishment 'left' isn't going to solve them. Quite the contrary, they're part of the problem, some of them consciously so.
Yeah, we have a whole thread devoted to that topic.  I'm not an apologist for the establishment left, or any other political creed.  I don't think Rob or Steve are either.  I think calling anyone who doesn't ascribe to Dore's hoaxes a warmonger is unproductive at best.  There's an inherent contradiction in your proposed link between the Western media's narrative and warmongering, given that much of the US accepts the narrative while also opposing the missile strikes.  It is that very large contingent encompassing the moderate left, libertarians and Tea Party that I think you are misreading.  This isn't the same atmosphere as 2003.
Title: Re: RussiaGate And The Media: Examples of Good AND Bad Journalism
Post by: Niall Dollard on April 23, 2018, 10:32:41 PM
The mail on sunday, finally an apology for falsehoods on climate change. David Rose also wrote misleading articles on Iraqi WMD.
Title: Re: RussiaGate And The Media: Examples of Good AND Bad Journalism
Post by: sidd on April 23, 2018, 11:15:26 PM
"Doubting the mainstream narrative is not necessarily the same as pushing conspiracy theories.  But claiming a hoax or a false flag is pushing a conspiracy. "

Wait, what ?

The mighty wurlitzer is playing the tune that  Assad gassed Ghouta. Opposing the claim requires that

a) the gas attack did not occur (which is labelled in the quote as "hoax")

or

b) It did, but Assad didn't do it (labelled as "false flag")

I can play at this game too. I could label the wurlitzer's claim as "lies." Or I could label it  also as a "conspiracy theory."

One man's hoax is another's scripture.

sidd
Title: Re: RussiaGate And The Media: Examples of Good AND Bad Journalism
Post by: sedziobs on April 23, 2018, 11:46:50 PM
a) the gas attack did not occur (which is labelled in the quote as "hoax")
The "hoax" is that the attack was staged, not just that it didn't happen.

Quote
b) It did, but Assad didn't do it (labelled as "false flag")
"False flag" implies that a covert action took place to achieve a deliberately deceptive appearance, not just that Assad didn't do it.

Both of those require plotting by a group with ulterior motives, which is what I consider to be the definition of "conspiracy".  I don't define "conspiracy" as wrong or even unlikely.
Title: Re: RussiaGate And The Media: Examples of Good AND Bad Journalism
Post by: zizek on April 23, 2018, 11:59:34 PM
On the left, I would say communists or anarchists are the rough equivalent to Nazi sympathizers. 

 I keep hearing this take from anti-communist liberals. And I don't think I've ever seen anyone actually provide a thought out reason to it. I'd love it if you could be the first.
Title: Re: RussiaGate And The Media: Examples of Good AND Bad Journalism
Post by: Neven on April 24, 2018, 12:05:03 AM
I think what sedziobs meant to say, was that it doesn't get more left than that, not necessarily that communism is as inherently destructive as fascism (being predicated on ultra-nationalism).
Title: Re: RussiaGate And The Media: Examples of Good AND Bad Journalism
Post by: sedziobs on April 24, 2018, 12:34:42 AM
I keep hearing this take from anti-communist liberals. And I don't think I've ever seen anyone actually provide a thought out reason to it. I'd love it if you could be the first.
As Neven implied, I'm not trying to justify or assess the merits of any position, my own included.  I'm just trying to portray the American political landscape as it stands today.  Communists and Neo-Nazis each have memberships that amount to less than 10,000.  I consider that to be fringe. 
Title: Re: RussiaGate And The Media: Examples of Good AND Bad Journalism
Post by: Rob Dekker on April 24, 2018, 07:32:40 AM
I don't think Rob or anyone else here is fine with how this all worked out.  It's possible to both analyze evidence as it's presented AND to disagree with the response of the US, UK and France.
 

Fair enough, but I think you should let Rob speak for himself. There are plenty of people who are convinced that Assad is responsible for the chemical attack, and thus anything goes. I don't agree with the argument, but one can make it.

To go through the attack itself is sort of interesting as a mystery that needs to be solved, but we could be doing that every day because this kind of atrocities happen every day, all around the world. Personally, I'm more interested in how it fits in the bigger picture of things. It's interesting to talk about how much ice melted in the Bering Sea Okhotsk today, but in the end it's AGW we want to know about.

I don't have much of an opinion about the strikes. I'm glad there were no civilian casualties, and no escalation of the conflict. I also think they did not do much good (in the sense of reducing Assad's chemical weapons capabilities).

I also don't think it matters much in the big picture.
Assad killed 1,600 civilians in Eastern Ghouta this year alone using mostly conventional weapons.
And that was all OK with the international community ?

Knowing the limited influence we can have, what I find more interesting is that we have all have a good understanding of the facts of what is actually happening in Syria.

That means fighting (Russian/Syrian) war-propaganda by using publicly available evidence.
Because in a war, publicly available open source evidence is all you can rely on.
The rest is just talk.

That's why the open source journalism like Bellingcat is so important in separating fact from propaganda in the mess that is Syria.
Title: Re: RussiaGate And The Media: Examples of Good AND Bad Journalism
Post by: Niall Dollard on April 25, 2018, 03:30:27 AM
That means fighting (Russian/Syrian) war-propaganda by using publicly available evidence.
Because in a war, publicly available open source evidence is all you can rely on.
The rest is just talk.

That's why the open source journalism like Bellingcat is so important in separating fact from propaganda in the mess that is Syria.

This is a very detailed timeline of original appearances of videos and photos of the Douma chemical incident. Throws up many discrepancies.

(Yes. I know it is by Steve McIntyre, of all people !)

https://climateaudit.org/2018/04/24/douma-videos-and-photos/
Title: Re: RussiaGate And The Media: Examples of Good AND Bad Journalism
Post by: Rob Dekker on April 25, 2018, 05:41:31 AM
That means fighting (Russian/Syrian) war-propaganda by using publicly available evidence.
Because in a war, publicly available open source evidence is all you can rely on.
The rest is just talk.

That's why the open source journalism like Bellingcat is so important in separating fact from propaganda in the mess that is Syria.

This is a very detailed timeline of original appearances of videos and photos of the Douma chemical incident. Throws up many discrepancies.

(Yes. I know it is by Steve McIntyre, of all people !)

Should have raised a yellow flag right there :
If there is anyone who can mis-interpret evidence, it is good old Steve McIntyre.

Rather than trying to debunk, or put into context, every part of his entire post, can you mention which one of the alleged "discrepancies" you find most convincing ?
Title: Re: RussiaGate And The Media: Examples of Good AND Bad Journalism
Post by: Niall Dollard on April 25, 2018, 09:06:39 PM
Yes I anticipated an ad hominem attack re McIntyre.

But I am trying to be fair minded, this is not climate related and credit that he has done a large amount of work piecing this together.

The altering of the dead bodies from video to video I find particularly disturbing. Appearance of foam in later videos on bodies that lacked foam in earlier videos.

Cause of death in situ sarin or in situ chlorine poisoning ? It doesn't seem likely to me that chlorine could kill people on the spot. McIntyre makes point that victims lack essential characteristics of nerve agent poisoning e.g. (1) rather than pupils being contracted to a pinprick (miosis), they are, if anything, dilated; (2) per Denis O'Brien, nerve agent victims lose bowel control, but no evident soiling. Etc.

Of course then there is the other claim that victims may have died elsewhere (perhaps suffocated in a fire) and were brought after death to the massacre house.



Title: Re: RussiaGate And The Media: Examples of Good AND Bad Journalism
Post by: Rob Dekker on April 26, 2018, 06:11:05 AM
Yes I anticipated an ad hominem attack re McIntyre.

That was not an ad hominem attack. It was a statement of fact. McIntyre repeatedly has shown to mis-interpret climate data, with the purpose of creating 'doubt' about climate science.
Each time his mis-representations were debunked by climate scientists, in the scientific literature and on RC.
 
For example, for years he repeatedly mis-interpreted data and methods used in MBH 98 for the reconstruction of global temperature (the hockey stick graph). And then there was ClimateGate, where McIntyre played a key role in mis-interpreting climate scientists email correspondence.

But I'm sure you are aware of all that.

Quote
But I am trying to be fair minded, this is not climate related and credit that he has done a large amount of work piecing this together.

I wonder why he did go through these gruesome videos, since there is not a lot he can conclude from it. I have neither the time nor the stomach to verify all his claims about the video's he analyzed, so in my response below, I will for now assume that all his factual claims about moved people are true.

Quote
The altering of the dead bodies from video to video I find particularly disturbing.

You probably mean the 'moving' of the bodies between videos.
I find that disturbing also, but it doesn't need to mean anything malicious.
I can imagine that they were quite in shock when they found these people dead, and

- They may have moved the bodies when they were looking for survivors, or
- They may have moved some bodies outside if they believed they were still alive, or
- They may have moved the bodies to take better pictures of their faces for later identification, or
- They may have moved the bodies to separate the ones that were identified from the ones that were not yet identified, or
- They may have moved bodies to show them on camera (like they did with the baby) to the rest of the world,
- We don't know what they felt when they moved these bodies, or if they were even thinking straight after they found all these dead people...

Either way, to me, this chaotic moving of bodies suggests that they did no pre-plan any of this.

Quote
Appearance of foam in later videos on bodies that lacked foam in earlier videos.

I think McIntyre only mentioned ONE such case : A woman who has foam on her left cheek in the second video. However, in the first video only her right cheek is visible. So I don't understand why McIntyre concludes that 'foam was applied'. Did I miss something ?

Quote
Cause of death in situ sarin or in situ chlorine poisoning ? It doesn't seem likely to me that chlorine could kill people on the spot. McIntyre makes point that victims lack essential characteristics of nerve agent poisoning e.g. (1) rather than pupils being contracted to a pinprick (miosis), they are, if anything, dilated; (2) per Denis O'Brien, nerve agent victims lose bowel control, but no evident soiling. Etc.

I don't have enough experience to conclude anything here.
I'd just like to note that we don't know what killed these people.

There were many reports by medical personnel of symptoms of exposure to Chlorine gas, but also 'something else'. Here is just ONE example :

Quote
“Something was working on the nervous system,” said a doctor who asked not to be named. “Chlorine doesn’t do that. While there was clearly chlorine on some of the people we treated, there was also something else.”
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2018/apr/12/syria-attack-experts-check-signs-nerve-agent

Quote
Of course then there is the other claim that victims may have died elsewhere (perhaps suffocated in a fire) and were brought after death to the massacre house.

Again, to me, this chaotic moving of bodies suggests that they did no pre-plan any of this.

If they really wanted to 'stage' this scene with bodies brought in from outside, I would have expected a much more organized effort, of documenting the scene and then proceed with some structured post-mortem process, rather than move people around and videotape it again.
That just doesn't sound like a pre-planned staging effort to me.
Title: Re: RussiaGate And The Media: Examples of Good AND Bad Journalism
Post by: SteveMDFP on April 26, 2018, 11:07:47 AM

Appearance of foam in later videos on bodies that lacked foam in earlier videos.

I think McIntyre only mentioned ONE such case : A woman who has foam on her left cheek in the second video. However, in the first video only her right cheek is visible. So I don't understand why McIntyre concludes that 'foam was applied'. Did I miss something ?

Quote
Cause of death in situ sarin or in situ chlorine poisoning ? It doesn't seem likely to me that chlorine could kill people on the spot. McIntyre makes point that victims lack essential characteristics of nerve agent poisoning e.g. (1) rather than pupils being contracted to a pinprick (miosis), they are, if anything, dilated; (2) per Denis O'Brien, nerve agent victims lose bowel control, but no evident soiling. Etc.

I don't have enough experience to conclude anything here.
I'd just like to note that we don't know what killed these people.
 

Quite right.  He puts too much weight on the appearance of some pupils.  Nobody claimed the toxic gas was Sarin in particular, there are other classes of toxic gases.  And while it's true that organophosphate poisoning gives constricted pupils, who knows how long this finding persists after death?  Or maybe people were provided atropine syringes to inject themselves if they thought they were exposed to nerve agents--soldiers are provided these.  Atropine (or other anticholinergics) would dilate pupils.

His analysis misses the forest for the trees.  A room full of women and children's fresh corpses are in the middle of a war zone, with no evidence of physical trauma.  Repeated claims of toxic gas use in other areas of the war suggests similar demise here.
Title: Re: RussiaGate And The Media: Examples of Good AND Bad Journalism
Post by: Buddy on April 26, 2018, 06:22:35 PM
Looks like FOX and Friends is starting a new feature called: "The Morning Meltdown"  ;)....

https://youtu.be/hxCpOcskJ1o
Title: Re: RussiaGate And The Media: Examples of Good AND Bad Journalism
Post by: Neven on April 26, 2018, 10:35:00 PM
Here's a funny example of bad journalism (from CNN, of course):

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Mydfue-vF90&
Title: Re: RussiaGate And The Media: Examples of Good AND Bad Journalism
Post by: SteveMDFP on April 27, 2018, 12:42:47 AM
Here's a funny example of bad journalism (from CNN, of course):


Well, yeah, that's a stupid correspondent, a point Dore beats like a dead horse.  Bad comedy.

If she were confident that only chlorine gas was used, not necessarily so stupid, as you'd need more than a snort-full from an object (some hours after the attack) to do real harm.

She does say "that stings."  That's the sort of reaction you'd expect from residual chlorine gas.
Title: Re: RussiaGate And The Media: Examples of Good AND Bad Journalism
Post by: sidd on April 27, 2018, 01:51:07 AM
America's Finest News Source takes no prisoners. From either side.

https://www.theonion.com/tucker-carlson-unsure-why-he-in-middle-of-20-minute-ran-1825571422

sidd
Title: Re: RussiaGate And The Media: Examples of Good AND Bad Journalism
Post by: Rob Dekker on April 27, 2018, 07:08:22 AM
Here's a funny example of bad journalism (from CNN, of course):

Neven, you are seriously pushing all my buttons here.

For starters, to call this "funny" is an disgusting insult to the people who died in Douma. You have seen the videos. Even Steve McIntyre does not contest that there were 34+ dead people in that house in Douma. Many women and children, and even babies. They died of something.
No report about that can be called "funny". Especially since there are plenty of reports that present the facts rather than opinions (CBS, Swedish Channel 4, Bellingcat to name a few).

Second, this Dore segment starts of praising Robert Fisk. How well accomplished this guy is and that he is foreign press reporter of the year, and 7 times that is (Dore says : "That's a lot of times").

You know that Dore is creating an argument of authority here, right ?
And you remember that an argument of authority is a logical fallacy ?

Anyhow, Dore continues with Fisk's visit to Douma, and that a doctor there told him that "the people were not suffering from a gas attack".

Now, I assume that he is referring to this article by Fisk :
https://www.independent.co.uk/voices/syria-chemical-attack-gas-douma-robert-fisk-ghouta-damascus-a8307726.html

Which states (and we have gone through this before) :
Quote
By bad luck, too, the doctors who were on duty that night on 7 April were all in Damascus giving evidence to a chemical weapons enquiry,

and

Quote
As Dr Assim Rahaibani announces this extraordinary conclusion, it is worth observing that he is by his own admission not an eyewitness himself

So this doctor that Fisk interviewed was NOT present April 7, and somehow the actual doctors that WERE on duty were all in Damascus.

Since Douma is now firmly back under Assad's control, need I say more about the credibility of ANY statement by ANY doctor giving his full name in Douma ?

Thirdly, Dore seems to attack a CNN piece about Douma, but yet again, he only shows a few seconds of the piece and yet again, her does not reference which piece that is.

And even though I asked you (Neven) before : If you you have a CNN piece that you think is bad journalism, please SHOW THE PIECE ! Don't show it through the mouth of the biased mouth of Jimmy Dore !

Thank you. I'm good now.
Title: Re: RussiaGate And The Media: Examples of Good AND Bad Journalism
Post by: Neven on April 27, 2018, 08:37:48 AM
I'm sorry, Rob. I just thought that a CNN reporter sniffing a backpack that might be contaminated with God knows what, was pretty funny.
Title: Re: RussiaGate And The Media: Examples of Good AND Bad Journalism
Post by: TerryM on April 27, 2018, 08:51:12 AM
I'm sorry, Rob. I just thought that a CNN reporter sniffing a backpack that might be contaminated with God knows what, was pretty funny.
A real nose for the news. ;D
Terry
Title: Re: RussiaGate And The Media: Examples of Good AND Bad Journalism
Post by: Rob Dekker on April 27, 2018, 09:40:57 AM
I'm sorry, Rob. I just thought that a CNN reporter sniffing a backpack that might be contaminated with God knows what, was pretty funny.
Nothing is funny about the chemical attack. Also you ignored the first two points of my response.
But regarding the third point : Where is the original CNN piece for this ?
And where did they get the backpack from ?
Title: Re: RussiaGate And The Media: Examples of Good AND Bad Journalism
Post by: Neven on April 27, 2018, 12:14:59 PM
Rob, next you're going to ask for the facts concerning a SNL sketch?  ;)

In another video Dore says that the backpack sniff test was broadcast live on CNN, but they cut it out afterwards.

Can you imagine if somehow we would receive incontrovertible evidence that Assad actually didn't do this? That it was a false flag operation? It's a frightening possibility. How many more people will lose their trust in corporate media, intelligence services and world leaders?

I'm actually hoping that Assad really did it.
Title: Re: RussiaGate And The Media: Examples of Good AND Bad Journalism
Post by: Rob Dekker on April 28, 2018, 05:24:11 AM
Rob, next you're going to ask for the facts concerning a SNL sketch?  ;)

In another video Dore says that the backpack sniff test was broadcast live on CNN, but they cut it out afterwards.

Interesting. Dore only shows a few seconds from CNN, taken out of context, he didn't show when or where it was taken, and Dore gave no reference, and you decide that that was an example of bad journalism by CNN ? How about it was an example of bad journalism by Dore ?
Especially since he used an argument of authority to promote a piece by Fisk which by itself was an example of bad journalism.

What is it with you and your love affair with Dore ?

Quote
Can you imagine if somehow we would receive incontrovertible evidence that Assad actually didn't do this? That it was a false flag operation? It's a frightening possibility. How many more people will lose their trust in corporate media, intelligence services and world leaders?

I'm actually hoping that Assad really did it.

Oh. He did it alright.
The moment that Russia and Syria started promoting multiple theories (the 'hoax' and the 'false flag') I knew that they had no evidence for either theory, which is a sure sign that they are lying.
Besides, all the open source evidence we have suggests that Assad did this.

Let's take a step back. Because I would like to understand why you (and others here) remain so skeptical of the evidence and the people who provided it.

Remember the attack on that wedding party in Yemen last week ? 33 dead.
What if Saudi Arabia would have denied they did that, and instead blame a suicide bomber for the carnage in a clear "false flag" attack ? Or even worse, they would claim that local rescue workers (Yemen's White Helmets if there is so such thing) for staging the whole thing. Or both theories would be promoted at the same time.

Would you have similar doubts that Saudi Arabia did it as you currently have about Assad causing the chemical attack in Douma ?

Or would you look at the open source evidence to make up your mind :
https://www.bellingcat.com/news/mena/2018/04/27/american-made-bomb-used-airstrike-yemen-wedding/

And in face of this open-source evidence, would you have questioned who took these pictures of the bomb fragments in Yemen, just like you questioned who took the videos of the gas cylinder in Douma  (or attack Bellingcat ad hominem, as some here did) ?

Do I have a point ? Be honest please.
Title: Re: RussiaGate And The Media: Examples of Good AND Bad Journalism
Post by: Rob Dekker on April 30, 2018, 06:32:35 AM
Here I have three pieces to share of what I think is good journalism.
All three deal with Syria, and specifically the chemical attack in Douma :

First one is by Bellingcat and it is based on open source information :
https://www.bellingcat.com/news/mena/2018/04/29/pieces-matter-syrias-chlorine-bombs-douma-chemical-attack/comment-page-1/#comment-153692

What they found in the videos of the 'balcony' cylinder in Douma (on top of the house where at least 34 fatalities were recorded) that there are pieces of the 'launch' system : There are wheels and straps right next to the cylinder, which are used to push these cylinders out of the helicopters. Bellingcat shows that these same wheels and straps are found in dozens of previous Chlorine attacks by the Syrian air force.

(https://017qndpynh-flywheel.netdna-ssl.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/04/Balcony-wheels-2.jpg)

This adds more credibility to the theory that this cylinder was pushed out of a helicopter, and also, for the people that still think this was all a 'staged' effort, that the staging must have been extremely accurate in its details.

They also attach an image from Vesti News footage which is really interesting :

(https://017qndpynh-flywheel.netdna-ssl.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/04/building-damage.jpg)

This suggests that the cylinder first knocked out a piece of the roof before it fell on the balcony.
Which explains why it did not go through the balcony floor, even if it was thrown from high altitude.

All of this evidence is still most consistent with an air drop, and inconsistent with a staging effort.

The second piece is about Assad/Russian propaganda, its self-contradictions by promoting mutually-exclusive 'alternative' theories, and how it is similar to Franco/Germany propaganda during WWII :
https://louisproyect.org/2018/04/28/the-shifting-sands-of-assadist-propaganda/

The last piece is more philosophical, and addresses a phenomenon I noticed before : That the political far 'left' and political far 'right' of the world seem to unite in promoting a pro-Putin/pro-Assad agenda :
https://pulsemedia.org/2018/04/29/you-arent-antiwar-if-you-arent-anti-assads-war/

With some good educational thoughts on who the far-left are supporting :

Quote
A month ago, a piece published by the Southern Poverty Law Center depicted a political scene ripe for barely hidden collaborations between the far right and a fraction of the Western left, such as the American ANSWER coalition or Party for Socialism and Liberation embracing similar foreign policy talking points as white nationalists.

and

Quote
A left truly independent of state-enforced narratives and emancipated from its own neo-Orientalism would place concern for civilians above all else. It would realise that the biggest perpetrators of war crimes in Syria have been the Assad forces, responsible for above 90% of civilian casualties.

and

Quote
Finally, a left empathic with the suffering of civilians abroad would realise that the limited military action against the Syrian regime only serves to preserve the semblance of what once was supposed to be a inviolable red line,—and that ultimately neither the red line itself, nor the feeble attempts at maintaining it will save Syrians from bombing, starvation, arrests and forced conscription.

If you are part of the political left, and anti-war and are appalled by human rights violations, at the VERY LEAST you should denounce Assad's war against his own people.
Title: Re: RussiaGate And The Media: Examples of Good AND Bad Journalism
Post by: Neven on May 03, 2018, 02:48:43 PM
From Russia Today:

Quote
Jokes about WMDs and drones are cool, but Michelle Wolf's media attack too much for DC elites (https://www.rt.com/op-ed/425615-michelle-wolf-correspondents-dinner/)

What is ‘too far’ when it comes to political comedy? Mocking the media for ripping off Trump coverage, or joking about how (oops!) you didn’t find any weapons of mass destruction in Iraq, after all?

That was a joke made by former president George W. Bush at the 2004 White House Correspondents' Dinner. Then there was the time former president Barack Obama joked that he could kill the Jonas Brothers with predator drones if they tried to date his teenage daughters — because, you know, killing people with predator drones is obviously hilarious.

Bush and Obama took heat for those jokes at the time, but the backlash was minimal in comparison to the slating Michelle Wolf has gotten over the past three days since she took the stage at the WHCD.

Wolf burned down the house at the Washington Hilton during the annual gathering, which assembles a who’s who of journalists, government officials and celebrities. She was caustic. She was irreverent. She sent the left and right into fits of blind rage. Wolf was the comedian the WHCD didn't know it needed.

Her scathing monologue was designed to let no one off the hook. Republicans, Democrats, the media — no one escaped the night unscathed and Wolf is facing a massive backlash for jokes that were supposedly ‘mean-spirited’ and went ‘too far.’

Now, to be fair, many are defending and applauding Wolf for having the guts to eviscerate everyone in the room without fear or favor. But there are also a lot of crybabies among the DC media and political elite.

CNN anchor Jake Tapper made sure to look suitably offended and as uncomfortable as possible when Wolf made a crude joke about Speaker of the House Paul Ryan, lest anyone assume the very serious journalist finds jokes about powerful people funny.

MSNBC’s chief foreign affairs correspondent Andrea Mitchell was so offended by a joke comparing White House press secretary Sarah Sanders to super villain Aunt Lydia in the hit TV series The Handmaid’s Tale, that she actually tweeted on Sanders’ behalf demanding an apology from Wolf. MSNBC's Mika Brzezinski, Peter Baker and Maggie Haberman of the New York Times, and Politico's Kyle Cheney, were some of the other journalists that expressed shock and disbelief at Wolf's jokes.

But America's best known journalists were not simply offended by a comedian mocking a woman who they believe lies to them from a podium every single day about issues of serious consequence. That may have been a cover for what they were most maddened by: her wholly justified attacks on the journalists sitting in front of her.

Mocking the 24-hour news cycle, Wolf complained that journalists “could be covering everything” but instead are focused squarely on three topics: “Trump, Russia and Hillary.” To the CNN journalists in the room, she quipped: “You guys love breaking news — and you did it, you broke it.”

Then came the real zinger.

“You guys are obsessed with Trump. Did you used to date him? Because you pretend like you hate him, but I think you love him. I think what no one in this room wants to admit is that Trump has helped all of you,” she cracked. “He has helped you. He’s helped you sell your papers and your books and your TV. You helped create this monster, and now you’re profiting off of him.”

Ouch.

 As I wrote on Twitter after Wolf’s performance, if there is one thing I learned living in Washington D.C., it’s that too many journalists in that bubble spend a lot of their social time ingratiating themselves to power and feeling very pleased with themselves for doing so. They will tell you it’s all about getting close to sources, but it’s not. They see the powerful as their friends, not their foes.

On more than one occasion, I met established journalists in DC who boasted about their friendships with and closeness to the Clintons, Kennedys, Bushes etc. in clear attempts to impress younger reporters.

There is a myth that DC journalists can simultaneously hobnob with White House officials and also do their jobs properly. But it’s impossible. You can’t be a journalist whose job it is to hold powerful people to account, when you’re hanging out and knocking back drinks with those powerful people at Bullfeathers after work.

Comedian Jimmy Dore put it well in an interview with journalist Glenn Greenwald about this very topic recently: “It’s why in wartime, they don’t let you fraternize with the enemy. Because you can’t look at a guy’s kids and then shoot him.” In other words, if journalists are going to do their jobs properly, they need to be suitably detached from the people they are covering.

But, as I said, what hurt them most of all was not Wolf’s attacks on their powerful friends. It was her attacks on the media itself. She hit them where it hurt. She embarrassed and ridiculed them. She called them out in a way few with a platform have been able to do.

Responding to the backlash, the White House Correspondents’ Association quickly threw Wolf under the bus, releasing a statement regretting that Wolf’s performance was “not in the spirit” of the event. Understandable to a degree, given that the event is usually more of an opportunity for self-congratulation than public ridicule.
Title: Re: RussiaGate And The Media: Examples of Good AND Bad Journalism
Post by: Martin Gisser on May 03, 2018, 04:48:43 PM
I really don't lend a lot of credence to people in suits on TV.  Or to the pronouncements of Assad, Putin, Trump or May.
And I certainly don't think any of these events merit a military response.  The US needs to get out of Syria, ASAP.  We can't help the people there by staying.

If this is really what you think, it shouldn't be difficult to be open to other explanations, instead of championing the one we see on the evening news that egged president Trump on to fire his toys.
For those who don't want to waste too much time and neurons, the most plausible explanation suffices.
I for one disregard all those other "explanations", esp.: those
from allies of Assad/Putin (e.g. anything from RT, Sputnik News, Fox News,...)
from 2nd rate media and bloggers,
from elderly famous journalists who admit they have in fact seen nothing,
from folks tending towards conspirarational ideation,
...

P.S.: Wow, Neven, are you now seriously consuming RT? Isn't Jimmy Dore enough?
Title: Re: RussiaGate And The Media: Examples of Good AND Bad Journalism
Post by: Rob Dekker on May 04, 2018, 08:45:24 AM
P.S.: Wow, Neven, are you now seriously consuming RT? Isn't Jimmy Dore enough?

I know. And it was not even necessary to quote RT. Plenty of other news agencies reported on Michelle Wolf's White House Correspondents Dinner. With similar messages.

For example, the Huffington Post :
https://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/tina-fey-michelle-wolf_us_5aeb15fae4b041fd2d23a868
Quote
Wolf’s performance has both lauded and criticized, but Fey suggested on NBC’s “Today” show that people should have expected her set would be what it was.

and here by Seth Meyers via the NYT :
https://www.nytimes.com/2018/05/01/arts/television/michelle-wolf-seth-meyers-trevor-noah.html
Quote
“She is filthy and she is mean — which is what we love about her. Because those are wonderful qualities for comedians, and terrible qualities for free-world leaders.” — SETH MEYERS, comparing Michelle Wolf with President Trump

and here by the examiner :
https://www.washingtonexaminer.com/news/obsessed-media-created-the-trump-monster-white-house-correspondents-dinner-comedian
Quote
Trump 'monster' created by the 'obsessed' media: White House Correspondents' dinner comedian

I think Neven just quoted RT just to piss us off  ;)

[edit] I took out a final remark that was not helpful.
Title: Re: RussiaGate And The Media: Examples of Good AND Bad Journalism
Post by: TerryM on May 05, 2018, 08:11:11 PM
Why we need a NATO for Infowar?

The Atlantic Council writes that:
"We need a robust defense not just of our borders but of our free and open societies"

or as MEDIUM puts it:
"Atlantic Council Explains Why We Need To Be Propagandized For Our Own Good"

https://medium.com/@caityjohnstone/atlantic-council-explains-why-we-need-to-be-propagandized-for-our-own-good-fd3470254ea5

A great article, and I'd recommend the comments in both  the Medium article and the Atlantic council article that can be addressed from their link.

I keep reading that it's a terrible thing to read RT, The Saker, or ZeroHedge. It's not. More information is better than less information. Hearing both sides of a story is better than hearing only one side.
We aren't children, and I'm not at all convinced that children shouldn't be learning all that they can at a very young age.
If you aren't open to learning something, why aren't you spending your time playing games?
Terry
Title: Re: RussiaGate And The Media: Examples of Good AND Bad Journalism
Post by: sidd on May 05, 2018, 08:23:46 PM
Nice zinger:

"Russian propaganda is dangerous because when your government decides it's time to go to war with Russia, you might not want them to."

sidd
Title: Re: RussiaGate And The Media: Examples of Good AND Bad Journalism
Post by: TerryM on May 05, 2018, 08:26:20 PM
Cover the poor children's eyes.
Terry
Title: Re: RussiaGate And The Media: Examples of Good AND Bad Journalism
Post by: Neven on May 05, 2018, 10:46:01 PM
That was a really good Medium article (https://medium.com/@caityjohnstone/atlantic-council-explains-why-we-need-to-be-propagandized-for-our-own-good-fd3470254ea5), Terry. Thanks.
Title: Re: RussiaGate And The Media: Examples of Good AND Bad Journalism
Post by: ivica on May 05, 2018, 11:38:30 PM
That was a really good Medium article (https://medium.com/@caityjohnstone/atlantic-council-explains-why-we-need-to-be-propagandized-for-our-own-good-fd3470254ea5), Terry. Thanks.

Caitlin Johnstone, the author of that article, also featured previously here (https://forum.arctic-sea-ice.net/index.php/topic,2204.msg149681.html#msg149681)):
   https://caitlinjohnstone.com/
podcast page:
   https://caitlinjohnstone.com/category/podcast/

worth to bookmark.

< As the Concentrated Corporate Power grew so is The CO2 Problem. Can we stop it? >
Title: Re: RussiaGate And The Media: Examples of Good AND Bad Journalism
Post by: Martin Gisser on May 06, 2018, 03:43:45 AM
The author calls herself an "Anarcho-psychonaut". How fitting.

Quote
What is the threat, specifically? That it makes the public less willing to go to war with Russia and its allies? That it makes us less trusting of lying, torturing, coup-staging intelligence agencies?
The threat is to the concept of facts and truth. -- Just because others are sometimes lying (or perhaps simply stupid - Hanlon's razor), there's no reason to turn to professional liars like RT etc. But that's exactly what the alt-left are doing, incl. folks here.

But heck, who cares? All that counts is what we want to be reality. We are Homo Sapiens, after all. We make the world according to our internal images and whims. And if it doesn't fit, we use black-white either-or logics to trim it in shape. Tertium non datur! Heck, does reality even exist?

(https://forum.arctic-sea-ice.net/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=2272.0;attach=99651;image)
Title: Re: RussiaGate And The Media: Examples of Good AND Bad Journalism
Post by: Rob Dekker on May 06, 2018, 06:52:50 AM
That was a really good Medium article (https://medium.com/@caityjohnstone/atlantic-council-explains-why-we-need-to-be-propagandized-for-our-own-good-fd3470254ea5), Terry. Thanks.

Was it ? A good article answers the when, what, who, where and why questions.

It's hard to know where to start and test this article against these 'good practice' rules of journalism.  So let's just start at the first sentence of this piece :

Quote
I sometimes try to get establishment loyalists to explain to me exactly why we’re all meant to be terrified of this “Russian propaganda” thing they keep carrying on about.

So who exactly are these "establishment loyalists" and where and when did they tell anyone to be "terrified" of exactly which "Russian propaganda" ?

And that was just the first sentence.

Overall, I have a question for those who found this article by Caitlin Johnstone 'really good' :

Do you really believe that stuff like this ? :

Quote
western mass media outlets are owned by western plutocrats, and those plutocrats have built their empires upon a status quo that they have a vested interest in preserving, often to the point where they will form alliances with defense and intelligence agencies to do so. They hire executives and editors who subscribe to a pro-establishment worldview, who in turn hire journalists who subscribe to a pro-establishment worldview, and in that way they ensure that all plutocrat-owned media outlets are advancing pro-plutocrat agendas.

Because to me this sounds like a conspiracy theory.
Why do you guys think this is 'really good' ?

And what do you think about the ad hominems like this :

Quote
I should note that Braw is a Senior Fellow at the Atlantic Council, the shady NATO-aligned think tank with ties to powerful oligarchs whose name comes up when you look into many of the mainstream anti-Russia narratives, from the DNC hack to the discredited war propaganda firm Bellingcat to Russian trolls to the notorious PropOrNot blacklist publicized by the Washington Post.

Is this good journalism ?
Seriously.

If you don't trust MSM, and you don't trust western intelligence agencies, and you believe that Russian media networks and intelligence agencies are more trustworthy, that's fine. That can be your opinion.

But to start an attack an open-source journalism site like Bellingcat by calling it a "discredited war propaganda firm" is just beyond comprehension. After all, if you don't trust statements of authority then open-source journalism is the ONLY way to find the truth.

Especially since Caitlin Johnstone is so critical of MSM and intelligence agencies, she should embrace open-source journalism, not try to shoot it down with an ad hominem argument.

Unless of course Caitlin Johnstone does not want to know the truth, and just wants to smear the very institutions of the free press. In that case, she succeeded 'very good'.
Title: Re: RussiaGate And The Media: Examples of Good AND Bad Journalism
Post by: sidd on May 06, 2018, 07:11:04 AM
"western mass media outlets are owned by western plutocrats, and those plutocrats have built their empires upon a status quo that they have a vested interest in preserving, often to the point where they will form alliances with defense and intelligence agencies to do so. They hire executives and editors who subscribe to a pro-establishment worldview, who in turn hire journalists who subscribe to a pro-establishment worldview, and in that way they ensure that all plutocrat-owned media outlets are advancing pro-plutocrat agendas."

Precisely. Look up "Mighty Wurlitzer". Going on for a very long time.

"If you don't trust MSM, and you don't trust western intelligence agencies,"

Quite.

"you believe that Russian media networks and intelligence agencies are more trustworthy"

Not so.

The first thing i wonder when i read news media is "who wants me to believe this and for what reason ?"

Quite deconstructionist, if you will.  Of course, that's just me.

sidd
Title: Re: RussiaGate And The Media: Examples of Good AND Bad Journalism
Post by: Rob Dekker on May 06, 2018, 07:36:19 AM
"If you don't trust MSM, and you don't trust western intelligence agencies,"

Quite.

"you believe that Russian media networks and intelligence agencies are more trustworthy"

Not so.

The first thing i wonder when i read news media is "who wants me to believe this and for what reason ?"

Quite deconstructionist, if you will.  Of course, that's just me.

Sidd I like that. Don't trust any statement of authority.

So would you agree with me that 'open source' journalism, where anyone can verify the evidence because it is publicly available, is the ONLY way left over to find out the difference between the truth and propaganda ?
Title: Re: RussiaGate And The Media: Examples of Good AND Bad Journalism
Post by: Rob Dekker on May 06, 2018, 09:42:01 AM
"western mass media outlets are owned by western plutocrats, and those plutocrats have built their empires upon a status quo that they have a vested interest in preserving, often to the point where they will form alliances with defense and intelligence agencies to do so. They hire executives and editors who subscribe to a pro-establishment worldview, who in turn hire journalists who subscribe to a pro-establishment worldview, and in that way they ensure that all plutocrat-owned media outlets are advancing pro-plutocrat agendas."

Precisely. Look up "Mighty Wurlitzer". Going on for a very long time.

From what I found there is the allegation that the CIA was controlling the media back in the 50's.

That's a completely different theory than the one by Caitlin Johnstone, who asserts that the "plutocrats" control the media.

So which is it ? CIA or plutocrats ?
Or did the plutocrats take over from the CIA at some point in time ? Or is the CIA controlled by the plutocrats ?

I'm just curious how this works in conspiracy theory land.
Title: Re: RussiaGate And The Media: Examples of Good AND Bad Journalism
Post by: sidd on May 07, 2018, 01:06:18 AM
30 minute interview with one of the greatest english language journalists of our time:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z69eXTGbg4Y

sidd
Title: Re: RussiaGate And The Media: Examples of Good AND Bad Journalism
Post by: Human Habitat Index on May 07, 2018, 01:45:34 AM
"western mass media outlets are owned by western plutocrats, and those plutocrats have built their empires upon a status quo that they have a vested interest in preserving, often to the point where they will form alliances with defense and intelligence agencies to do so. They hire executives and editors who subscribe to a pro-establishment worldview, who in turn hire journalists who subscribe to a pro-establishment worldview, and in that way they ensure that all plutocrat-owned media outlets are advancing pro-plutocrat agendas."

Precisely. Look up "Mighty Wurlitzer". Going on for a very long time.

From what I found there is the allegation that the CIA was controlling the media back in the 50's.

That's a completely different theory than the one by Caitlin Johnstone, who asserts that the "plutocrats" control the media.

So which is it ? CIA or plutocrats ?
Or did the plutocrats take over from the CIA at some point in time ? Or is the CIA controlled by the plutocrats ?

I'm just curious how this works in conspiracy theory land.

CIA is controlled by the Plutocrats.

CIA watches over the Media.

September Clues reveals  no planes were involved in 911.

What appeared on TV were computer generated images.

http://www.septemberclues.info/
Title: Re: RussiaGate And The Media: Examples of Good AND Bad Journalism
Post by: SteveMDFP on May 07, 2018, 02:06:19 AM


September Clues reveals  no planes were involved in 911.

What appeared on TV were computer generated images.

http://www.septemberclues.info/

And the moon landing never happened.
And the earth really is flat.
Sandy Hook was a hoax.
Right.
Title: Re: RussiaGate And The Media: Examples of Good AND Bad Journalism
Post by: Human Habitat Index on May 07, 2018, 02:10:33 AM
Earth is not flat

Black Boxes were not recovered at "ground zero"  :o

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_unrecovered_flight_recorders
Title: Re: RussiaGate And The Media: Examples of Good AND Bad Journalism
Post by: SteveMDFP on May 07, 2018, 02:51:34 AM
Earth is not flat

Black Boxes were not recovered at "ground zero"  :o

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_unrecovered_flight_recorders

Incineration will do that to a black box.  Flight 93's was recovered.
Title: Re: RussiaGate And The Media: Examples of Good AND Bad Journalism
Post by: TerryM on May 07, 2018, 03:27:36 AM
Operation Gladio

"in his memoirs, former CIA director William Colby (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/William_Colby) described the setting-up of stay-behind armies in Scandinavian countries, including Finland, with or without the assistance of local governments"


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Gladio#US_State_Department's_2006_response

http://www.php.isn.ethz.ch/lory1.ethz.ch/collections/colltopic1293.html?lng=en&id=20204&navinfo=15301

Terry
Title: Re: RussiaGate And The Media: Examples of Good AND Bad Journalism
Post by: Human Habitat Index on May 07, 2018, 03:44:54 AM
Earth is not flat

Black Boxes were not recovered at "ground zero"  :o

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_unrecovered_flight_recorders

Incineration will do that to a black box.  Flight 93's was recovered.

I thought black boxes were virtually indestructible.

Watch September Clues if you care about the truth.
Title: Re: RussiaGate And The Media: Examples of Good AND Bad Journalism
Post by: NevB on May 07, 2018, 05:17:07 AM
Earth is not flat

Black Boxes were not recovered at "ground zero"  :o

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_unrecovered_flight_recorders

Incineration will do that to a black box.  Flight 93's was recovered.

I thought black boxes were virtually indestructible.

Watch September Clues if you care about the truth.

911 conspiracy theries belong right here in this thread.
These are good examples of bad journalism where all sorts of nonsence is reported.
As reprehensible as the Bush regime was any involvement at any level in murdering thousands of US citizens could never be covered up. The US justice system is not yet that broken that the people capable of this would expect never to be held to account.

Title: Re: RussiaGate And The Media: Examples of Good AND Bad Journalism
Post by: Human Habitat Index on May 07, 2018, 05:46:28 AM
Earth is not flat

Black Boxes were not recovered at "ground zero"  :o

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_unrecovered_flight_recorders

Incineration will do that to a black box.  Flight 93's was recovered.

I thought black boxes were virtually indestructible.

Watch September Clues if you care about the truth.

911 conspiracy theries belong right here in this thread.
These are good examples of bad journalism where all sorts of nonsence is reported.
As reprehensible as the Bush regime was any involvement at any level in murdering thousands of US citizens could never be covered up. The US justice system is not yet that broken that the people capable of this would expect never to be held to account.

There were no victims, so it was a murderless false flag:-

Our latest research in 2009 has brought us to a series of remarkable discoveries in the collection of victim stories. What began as an insightful look at the CNN.com 9/11 Victim Memorial, the original source of the death reports, turned into realization after realization that the entire body of victims - from the airplanes, to the Pentagon, to the World Trade Center - had all been created at the same time by an "identity generating" software program which creates 'digital' people with (oft improbable) fictitious names. Anyone armed with a little patience and a discerning attitude should be able to realize that the CNN Victim Memorial is a preposterous list of counterfeit identities. As a result, the full extent of the 9/11 simulation - heroes, victims and villains - is revealed as the absurd, fabricated drama that it is.

http://www.septemberclues.info/vicsims.shtml

Also amazing how many lucky people that missed those "fateful" flights -

Over 350 Passengers Canceled Their Reservations or Didn't Show Up ..

http://911blogger.com/news/2014-08-22/over-350-passengers-canceled-their-reservations-or-didnt-show-hijacked-911-flights
Title: Re: RussiaGate And The Media: Examples of Good AND Bad Journalism
Post by: SteveMDFP on May 07, 2018, 06:19:50 AM

As a result, the full extent of the 9/11 simulation - heroes, victims and villains - is revealed as the absurd, fabricated drama that it is.

http://www.septemberclues.info/vicsims.shtml


That site's owner has an illuminating .pdf file containing his report of his investigation of the names of the victims.  It reads like the rantings of a paranoid schizophrenic.  Here's one quite amusing passage:

"And did you know Chapter 16 Verse 17 of the Bhagavad Gita describes the personality of the arrogant demoniac who performs arrogant “pseudo-rituals” to display their wealth? Surely, they can’t be this silly, to initiate their sim-Genesis with such signs. Well, that is the religious shouting which disguises calculations."
Title: Re: RussiaGate And The Media: Examples of Good AND Bad Journalism
Post by: Human Habitat Index on May 07, 2018, 06:24:37 AM

As a result, the full extent of the 9/11 simulation - heroes, victims and villains - is revealed as the absurd, fabricated drama that it is.

http://www.septemberclues.info/vicsims.shtml


That site's owner has an illuminating .pdf file containing his report of his investigation of the names of the victims.  It reads like the rantings of a paranoid schizophrenic.  Here's one quite amusing passage:

"And did you know Chapter 16 Verse 17 of the Bhagavad Gita describes the personality of the arrogant demoniac who performs arrogant “pseudo-rituals” to display their wealth? Surely, they can’t be this silly, to initiate their sim-Genesis with such signs. Well, that is the religious shouting which disguises calculations."

Information is important, not who delivers it.
Title: Re: RussiaGate And The Media: Examples of Good AND Bad Journalism
Post by: Rob Dekker on May 07, 2018, 06:35:32 AM
Steve stated :

And the moon landing never happened.
And the earth really is flat.
Sandy Hook was a hoax.
Right.

Human Habitat Index answered :

Earth is not flat

Does that mean that moon landing never happened, and that Sandy Hook was a hoax ?
Or were you just short in your answer ?
Title: Re: RussiaGate And The Media: Examples of Good AND Bad Journalism
Post by: Human Habitat Index on May 07, 2018, 06:46:53 AM
Steve stated :

And the moon landing never happened.
And the earth really is flat.
Sandy Hook was a hoax.
Right.

Human Habitat Index answered :

Earth is not flat

Does that mean that moon landing never happened, and that Sandy Hook was a hoax ?


Yes
Title: Re: RussiaGate And The Media: Examples of Good AND Bad Journalism
Post by: Rob Dekker on May 07, 2018, 06:47:37 AM
I stated in my reply to sidd :

Sidd I like that. Don't trust any statement of authority.

So would you agree with me that 'open source' journalism, where anyone can verify the evidence because it is publicly available, is the ONLY way left over to find out the difference between the truth and propaganda ?

Sidd replied with an interview with John Pilger.

Now, I listened to the whole interview, and I did not once hear him talk about 'open source' journalism. Instead, Pilger denies Douma's chemical attack ever happened, and complements Fisk for his report about Douma, since Fisk talked to a 'doctor' who told him nothing happened. Remember that was that 'doctor' who talked English very well, and was not present in the hospital at the time of the attack.

I'm not sure sidd, if that interview was an answer to my question, or if you just choose to ignore my inquiry ?
Title: Re: RussiaGate And The Media: Examples of Good AND Bad Journalism
Post by: Rob Dekker on May 07, 2018, 06:49:36 AM
Does that mean that moon landing never happened, and that Sandy Hook was a hoax ?
Yes

Thanks for your honest reply.
Title: Re: RussiaGate And The Media: Examples of Good AND Bad Journalism
Post by: Rob Dekker on May 07, 2018, 09:14:21 AM
In my opinion, there are three types of journalism :

1) The parrots. Who just state what people of authority are stating. This side says this, and that side says that. The parrots cover much of MSM, and they leave it up to the reader to decide which side is more convincing.

2) The reporters. These are the people that go out into the field and question witnesses and often visit the scene. This is a much more direct form of journalism, since it does not rely on statements of authority to make up viewers' minds. Problem is that eye witnesses may be biased, or inaccurate, and the scene may have been tempered with. It also leaves much up to the journalist opinion about what to show and what not to show.

3) The 'open source' investigative journalists. This is the new kid on the block. Open source journalism relies only on evidence that is available to the public, often videos and pictures taken by locals. This form of journalism does not rely on authority, nor on witnesses, and neither on journalist's opinion, just on ALL publicly available evidence to uncover the truth about who, when, where, what happened.

Which form do you like the best ?
Title: Re: RussiaGate And The Media: Examples of Good AND Bad Journalism
Post by: NevB on May 07, 2018, 02:52:35 PM
Earth is not flat

Black Boxes were not recovered at "ground zero"  :o

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_unrecovered_flight_recorders

Incineration will do that to a black box.  Flight 93's was recovered.

I thought black boxes were virtually indestructible.

Watch September Clues if you care about the truth.

911 conspiracy theries belong right here in this thread.
These are good examples of bad journalism where all sorts of nonsence is reported.
As reprehensible as the Bush regime was any involvement at any level in murdering thousands of US citizens could never be covered up. The US justice system is not yet that broken that the people capable of this would expect never to be held to account.

When posting this this morning (Perth Aus. Time) I was dissatisfied that I don't know of any way to quantify good or bad journalism. Just posting an opinion as I did doesn't add anything at all and mostly is simply going to lead to conflict. I spent some time during the day mulling over if this is even possible and what I could do. 

One metric that I thought might be useful is the number of search results:

Googling  "Black Boxes were not recovered at "ground zero"" results in "About 482,000 results
 (0.50 seconds)" - Disappointing as there's certainly no way to determine the relevance and quality of each result.

DuskDuckGo allows filtering for results from the last week and returns five results. Of these only one appears to be relevant. This is https://www.astrologyweekly.com/forum/showthread.php?p=882504.

Perhaps a simple search result can indicate how widely a topic is discussed?
Could we then rate how many views each of these items have ?

(In this case the one result is from an Astrology blog and I'll allow my bias to dismiss this as complete nonsense.)

The next obvious step would be to check primary sources and then the official government reports. This would be an arduous and time consuming process. Rob Dekker has been promoting open sources as an answer, this seems a logical step forward though not for this case in particular as it doesn't seem to require any further analysis but in general.

What are people's thoughts, is there any consensus that we can build on how to judge what is good and bad journalism?







Title: Re: RussiaGate And The Media: Examples of Good AND Bad Journalism
Post by: SteveMDFP on May 07, 2018, 03:24:49 PM

What are people's thoughts, is there any consensus that we can build on how to judge what is good and bad journalism?

I think it's pretty much like judging good or bad academic scholarship.
A neglected detail is whether the piece is written by a specified journalist.  Professional journalists tend to put care in what they write when it has their name on it.  Shoddy work lives forever and can torpedo a career.

Other aspects include whether independent corroboration was obtained prior to publication.

Clear writing is an indicator.  I wish footnotes or hyperlinks were standard in journalism.  When these are included, quality of references is an indicator.

Others can surely cite other indicators.
Title: Re: RussiaGate And The Media: Examples of Good AND Bad Journalism
Post by: Neven on May 07, 2018, 04:16:35 PM
What are people's thoughts, is there any consensus that we can build on how to judge what is good and bad journalism?

From one Nev to another: Good journalism speaks truth to power.

And that's the problem that I and many others have with mainstream, corporate media. Because of the way it is set up, it inherently can speak to power only so far. And that's not very far nowadays.

Ergo, on the whole, mainstream, corporate media is bad journalism. It's designed to condition people and keep their thinking within a narrow, tribalistic, black-and-white way of thinking. Because that's what makes the money flow. Distract and disorient.
Title: Re: RussiaGate And The Media: Examples of Good AND Bad Journalism
Post by: SteveMDFP on May 07, 2018, 04:29:26 PM
What are people's thoughts, is there any consensus that we can build on how to judge what is good and bad journalism?

From one Nev to another: Good journalism speaks truth to power.

And that's the problem that I and many others have with mainstream, corporate media. Because of the way it is set up, it inherently can speak to power only so far. And that's not very far nowadays.

Ergo, on the whole, mainstream, corporate media is bad journalism. It's designed to condition people and keep their thinking within a narrow, tribalistic, black-and-white way of thinking. Because that's what makes the money flow. Distract and disorient.

I think this describes *important* journalism, not necessarily high-quality.  A piece can be important, but shoddy.  It can be high quality, but utterly unimportant.

I agree that the combination is rare.
Title: Re: RussiaGate And The Media: Examples of Good AND Bad Journalism
Post by: Rob Dekker on May 08, 2018, 06:32:50 AM
Now, I listened to the whole interview, and I did not once hear him talk about 'open source' journalism. Instead, Pilger denies Douma's chemical attack ever happened, and complements Fisk for his report about Douma, since Fisk talked to a 'doctor' who told him nothing happened. Remember that was that 'doctor' who talked English very well, and was not present in the hospital at the time of the attack.

Pilger is right.

Right about what ? That the Douma attack never happened ? If so, how do you know ?

Let's go through this step by step :

Quote
Not everyone is up to seeing that. Oh well. Hersh, Fisk, Pilger and Chomsky are wonderful human beings who speak truth to power almost every time they open their mouths or write something down. Another million journalists like that the whole world would be a much better much safer enjoyable place to live.

I can see you really like these journalists.
Rather than "truth to power" (whatever that means), I'd much rather have a journalist (including reporters like Fisk) answer the basic 5 questions any good article should address :

When, where, what, who and (optionally) why.

Quote
It's true if the doctor says so that he wasn't inside the hospital when the filming occurred. That's what Fisk reported. he didn't make it up, he reported what the Doctor said. That's what honorable ethical journalists do. Those that do not are not credible.

You are assuming this guy was a doctor. And so did Fisk.

All we know is that there was a person there who spoke English well, and who was not present at the time, and he said it there was no chemical attack.

So he made an argument by authority, which we know is a logical fallacy.

Fisk knows that, and the fact that he did not tell his audience that is a yellow flag.

Quote
Be clear however, that doctor never said there was a (chemical) attack and many others who were there nearby have confirmed that as being the case. He was speaking about the hospital and the video. All is 'open source' information, so it's questionable why Bellingcat have not included that 'point of view' from known first hand witnesses in their non-stop 'reporting' about this issue.

Bellingcat does 'open source' journalism. They avoid witness reports because witnesses can be tainted, biased, under duress, inaccurate, incomplete, and just plain wrong.

Or they may not be witnesses at all, like this 'doctor'.

Quote
Besides this Rob, I believe there are several huge holes in the opinions/theory you believe about Fisk and doctors. I'll explain a few for the benefit of everyone here. That doctor spoke good english. What that means and why it is important for Fisk to state is there was little to no likelihood that Fisk misunderstood what he was saying and more importantly what precisely he meant. There was no translator intermediary. That's significant.

Right. Fisk would understand what this "doctor" said.

Quote
The doctor as reported worked in that very hospital.

You don't know that. You are just assuming that, since the "doctor" himself said so.

Quote
This means that first he spoke fluent Arabic. Not only could he hear what was being said in the video, but he also knew what the locals the staff and other doctors had told him in the preceding days before Fisk arrived.

You are just assuming that he "the locals the staff and other doctors had told him" anything.
Either way, it would be second-hand news.

Quote
Fisk was reporting what that Doctor knew as a result of being a hearsay witness of the events. Being a doctor there is a degree of default ethics and credibility in his story told to Fisk and Fisk properly recorded that for us to consider. His words carry some weight. I believe both of them but you and others for some unknown reason do not.

You don't know if he is a doctor, and he was NOT a witness.
So his words carry very little weight.
All we know is that he spoke English very well (at least that was Fisk's opinion).

Quote
Reading your past comments here it seems that you have never ever heard of Robert Fisk before this event. You also rubbished the wikipedia entry that reported on his multiple awards. Why anyone would do that based on an absence of accurate knowledge about Fisk is incredible. Because Robert Fisk would be the #1 western investigative journalist in the middle east for the last 40 years. His reputation for accuracy, honesty, credibility, ethics, reliability and truthfulness is without peer. Even Osama Bin laden knew him to be an honourable man who would not lie about anything. He was interviewed 3 times by Fisk. I assume you don't know that either. Because if you did I doubt you would have been so keen to insult his qualifications as an award winning journalist in the first place.

Now you are using the argument of authority again, this time for Fisk.
That is again a logical fallacy.

Quote
So the big question here is not how untrustworthy Robert Fisk's reporting is, the question is the credibility of your own personal opinions, beliefs and background knowledge of the ME in general and Syria in particular. You're no journalist Rob. Please try to keep that in mind. To put that in  a humourous way Bellingcat isn't worthy to tie up Fisk's shoelaces.  ;D

That's cute, but no.
As I pointed out above, Fisk has nothing in this report. The only 'witness' he interviewed was not a witness, may not even be a doctor.

What is even more shocking is that Fisk did not visit the crime scene.
Bellingcat had geolocated the house where 34 dead people were found and there was a chlorine cylinder on the balcony.

Why did Fisk not go there ?
CBS did, and so did Swedish channel 4.
But not Fisk.
He just interviewed a guy who spoke English.
That's it.

Quote
Lastly, and this is really a good one. That doctor as reported accurately by Fisk said the 2 or 3 doctors who were on duty and present when the video/s were done were away. They were in fact enroute or already in the Netherlands for that OCPW meeting and press conference. For some unknown reason you dispute the reports by this doctor because he wasn't present. OK, fair enough on face value, you're a doubting Thomas. Nothing wrong with that principle.

Thank you.
I tend not to 'believe' anything until I see it.
And Bellingcat provided a LOT of evidence that you can actually look at.
Fisk provided NONE.

Quote
But here's the rub. Those doctors who were present did in fact confirm exactly what the doctor told Fisk. 2-3 days after the date Fisk filed his news report. Now given this information is 'open source' and out there in the wild, it begs the question why Rob doesn't already know this? It's been over a week at least.

How do you know that "Those doctors who were present" were the same ones that went to the OPCW meeting in The Hague ?

Quote
And why it is that Bellingcat that champion of accuracy and 'open source' analysis has not reported on what those Doctors those first hand credible ethical professional knowledgeable witnesses had to say about those videos taken while they were present in that very room?   

Because Bellingcat does not rely on witness accounts.
And they don't because of the problems with witness accounts in general as I pointed out above.
Not to mention that these particular witnesses are under Syrian government control.

Quote
The people in that video were not suffering from a chlorine gas attack. They were all suffering from hypoxia having been underground in a tunnel / shelter when some bombing occurred.  They were overcome with dust and a lack of air. eg  “what you see are people suffering from hypoxia—not gas poisoning"

You don't know that.
Also, when reports of a chemical attack came in, it may very well be that these hospital workers took no chances and hosed down everybody.
Better be safe than sorry.
Khan Sheikhoun comes to mind.

Quote
That is why they were being washed down with water to remove excess "dust" to stop it getting worse, and is why they were being given Ventolin to help open up the air-ways in their lungs to help them breathe better.

Are you a doctor too now, like this guy who spoke English ?

Quote
What I saw in the videos were just as traumatizing for the children as the bombing was. They were scared out of their minds trying to breathe with screaming panicking adults all around them.  This was obvious to me the first time I saw those videos. It was obvious to me immediately that what I was seeing had nothing to do with the proper treatment for a major chlorine gas attack that supposedly had killed hundreds of people.

Fatality numbers vary, but mostly between 40 and 85. Not 'hundreds'.
We know there were 34+ bodies in that house with the cylinder on the roof.

Quote
I don't feel it necessary to provide a link to those doctor witnesses confirming the Fisk report of what his Doctor said to him and why. A great test to see how effective 'Open Source' journalism can really be.

You still don't understand that 'open source' journalism does NOT rely on witness accounts ?

Quote
Maybe Bellingcat have published the correct up-to-date information since I last looked at their website yesterday.

They published a new article that shows that if even 1 % of the chlorine in that cylinder would have made it into the house, that it would be lethal to the people inside :
https://www.bellingcat.com/news/mena/2018/05/01/lethality-chlorine-gas-possible-explanation-high-casualties-deaths-following-april-7-2018-attacks-douma-syria/

Quote
... some people go look at Mann's Hockey Stick graph and all they can see is lies and fraud. I think they are extremely Biased. They might possibly be deluding themselves but they are definitely not thinking straight or being rational about it. Happens a lot in my experience. So much for us being the smartest species on Earth. Go figure!  :D

Yes. Some people look at the openly available video evidence that Bellingcat presented, and all they can see is lies and fraud. That there was no chemical attack and that we should trust the voices of authority from a self-proclaimed "doctor" who was not a witness, and the Syrian government.

All in a country that has scores 177 out of 180 in freedom of the press, in what "Reporters Without Borders" calls a "horrendous environment".
https://rsf.org/en/ranking

It looks like you made up your mind and you chose to believe the Syrian government authority narrative rather than the publicly available evidence that Bellingcat presented.
Title: Re: RussiaGate And The Media: Examples of Good AND Bad Journalism
Post by: Rob Dekker on May 08, 2018, 06:55:20 AM
What are people's thoughts, is there any consensus that we can build on how to judge what is good and bad journalism?

Several of my friends are newspaper editors, and they claim that good journalism answers as many of the 5 basic questions as possible :

When, where, what, who and why.
Title: Re: RussiaGate And The Media: Examples of Good AND Bad Journalism
Post by: sidd on May 08, 2018, 07:32:22 AM
Video can be faked. Careful what you believe:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deepfake

sidd

Title: Re: RussiaGate And The Media: Examples of Good AND Bad Journalism
Post by: TerryM on May 08, 2018, 07:33:29 AM



https://youtu.be/lSXwG-901yU

Seems as though everyone that actually went there comes back with the same story.
It was a hoax!

Who - rebels
What - hoax
Where - Douma
Why - to draw in the West

Result - busted
Terry

Title: Re: RussiaGate And The Media: Examples of Good AND Bad Journalism
Post by: Rob Dekker on May 08, 2018, 07:55:56 AM
Seems as though everyone that actually went there comes back with the same story.
It was a hoax!

Not everyone.
CBS went in and documented the house with the cylinder on the roof.
So did Swedish channel 4.
 
And if you want to rely on eye witnesses, they interviewed this guy who was actually in the building when the attack happened, and lost half his family.

https://youtu.be/KDey9vvPmlM

Wonder why Fisk never seemed to make it to this site, and didn't find this eye witness either.
Your OAN segment is a case in point. They never made it to the crime scene either.

Also, if you still believe it was a hoax, you still have to explain a lot of facts :
https://twitter.com/EliotHiggins/status/990569464654647296
Title: Re: RussiaGate And The Media: Examples of Good AND Bad Journalism
Post by: sidd on May 08, 2018, 08:49:29 AM
Who's paying for your news  is always a good question to ask.

looks like propornot  fake news list is atlantic council, same ones who fund eliot higgins, among others:

https://steemit.com/news/@fortified/fake-news-or-how-the-atlantic-council-promoted-anti-russian-propaganda

atlantic council seem to pump a bunch of anti russia propaganda

https://caucus99percent.com/content/atlantic-council-center-russiagate-hysteria

Bongo is one horrible person. atlantic council gave him an award.

http://thehill.com/blogs/pundits-blog/lobbying-world/303016-the-atlantic-council-questionable-relationship-with-gabons

They cool with eritrea atrocities:

https://assenna.com/forget-objectivity-for-the-atlantic-council-eritreas-prison-state-isnt-that-bad/

They cool with Kazakasthan, too. look it up. They cool with most dictators except mebbe Putin. He should think about throwing em some money.

Early years of atlantic council showing intimate ties with state department and US industry:

https://www.nato.int/acad/fellow/96-98/small.pdf

sidd
Title: Re: RussiaGate And The Media: Examples of Good AND Bad Journalism
Post by: Rob Dekker on May 08, 2018, 10:03:02 AM
Who's paying for your news  is always a good question to ask.

looks like propornot  fake news list is atlantic council, same ones who fund eliot higgins, among others:

Swedish channel 4 also fake news ?
And regarding this overview of things-that-must-be-true-if-the-Douma-attack-was-staged :
https://twitter.com/EliotHiggins/status/990569464654647296
why don't you argue with these statements rather than launching an ad hominem attack on whoever you deem related to Higgins.
Title: Re: RussiaGate And The Media: Examples of Good AND Bad Journalism
Post by: Rob Dekker on May 09, 2018, 05:12:40 AM
ASILurker, I don't have time to respond to your response again, point by point, as I did yesterday.
You obviously want to believe the Syrian government narrative very badly, and you obviously do not like open source journalism, where the evidence is there for anyone to interpret.

So instead, I'll wait for when you will address the open source evidence itself.
Here are two references in case you forgot :

https://www.bellingcat.com/news/mena/2018/04/11/open-source-survey-alleged-chemical-attacks-douma-7th-april-2018/

https://www.bellingcat.com/news/mena/2018/04/29/pieces-matter-syrias-chlorine-bombs-douma-chemical-attack

Looking forward to how you can reconcile all that evidence with your theory that there was never a gas attack. Some elaborate hoax it must have been....
Title: Re: RussiaGate And The Media: Examples of Good AND Bad Journalism
Post by: Rob Dekker on May 09, 2018, 08:18:11 AM
ASILurker, you talk a lot and you say very little.

So instead, I'll wait for when you will address the open source evidence itself.
Here are two references in case you forgot :

https://www.bellingcat.com/news/mena/2018/04/11/open-source-survey-alleged-chemical-attacks-douma-7th-april-2018/

https://www.bellingcat.com/news/mena/2018/04/29/pieces-matter-syrias-chlorine-bombs-douma-chemical-attack

Looking forward to how you can reconcile all that evidence with your theory that there was never a gas attack. Some elaborate hoax it must have been....
Title: Re: RussiaGate And The Media: Examples of Good AND Bad Journalism
Post by: Rob Dekker on May 09, 2018, 08:20:32 AM
What I really hope for is this atrocious inhuman violence and evil all over Syria stops in the very next second!

I share that hope, but that will only happen if Assad steps down and calls for free, UN supervised elections.
 
And that ain't gonna happen any time soon.
Title: Re: RussiaGate And The Media: Examples of Good AND Bad Journalism
Post by: Alexander555 on May 09, 2018, 08:27:26 AM
What if the entire planet unites against the US rob ? Before you can destroy them. If you look at these Americans working at Walmart. After they finished their job at Walmart, they move to their 2th job. And some even to their 3th job. And still have nothing. And for what, to have an army of well paid corrupt state employees. And a bunch of assholes that like to abuse Mexicans for 4 usd a day. And these abused Mexicans are already with 200 million rob. Venezuela is ruined by the US. Half this planet is ruined by the US.
Title: Re: RussiaGate And The Media: Examples of Good AND Bad Journalism
Post by: Rob Dekker on May 09, 2018, 08:39:55 AM
ASILurker, while you pounder that evidence that Bellingcat provided, and explain the videos which show how 34 bodies were found in a house with a gas cylinder on the roof if there was no gas attack, here is one more piece of evidence :

https://feitoffake.wordpress.com/2018/05/07/grid-marks-on-douma-cylinder-resembling-those-of-a-fence-is-another-indication-cylinder-was-dropped-by-helicopter/

(https://feitoffake.files.wordpress.com/2018/05/dcljbs3xkaensff.jpg)

Open source journalism rocks.
Title: Re: RussiaGate And The Media: Examples of Good AND Bad Journalism
Post by: Rob Dekker on May 10, 2018, 06:39:17 AM
For the record I had not seen those 3 pages of information before today.

Wait. What ?
After numerous lengthy posts of yours calling Bellingcat's analysis of the Douma chemical attack a "conspiracy theory" calling Bellingcat and Higgins not credible, attack their associations, and calling them not unlike Watts and Monckton, "The dunning-krugar effect group? ", and now we find out you did not even read their article ?

Instead, you propose a conspiracy theory that is only supported by a "doctor" who was not a witness.

The hypocracy in your statements is mind boggling.

OK, mr ASILurker, it's time to put up or shut up :

If no gas attack took place as you suggest, then how do you explain the recorded evidence that was presented in the Bellingcat articles ? Details of your theory please.

Without a thorough explanation of your theory as tested by the evidence, you are just another war crimes denier.
Title: Re: RussiaGate And The Media: Examples of Good AND Bad Journalism
Post by: Rob Dekker on May 10, 2018, 08:56:06 AM
I don't have a theory to give you details on
...
I don't want to intrude into this thread and bore people. I also wish to lay down a few ground rules for how the discussions will proceed including it being an adhom free zone. Like progressive step by step discussion where you can act like the Prosecution Lawyer, Bellingcat is the 'police investigators' with the key evidence and I'll respond and question that as if I'm the Defense Barrister. Other readers here can be the Jury if they want, and they can decide who won the case at the end.  Whether the charges are proven beyond a reasonable doubt or not?
...
How does that sound to you Rob?

You are so cute.
It's clear now that you've got NOTHING to counter Bellingcat's analysis.
And NOTHING to test your own theory against the evidence presented.
NOTHING at all.
Title: Re: RussiaGate And The Media: Examples of Good AND Bad Journalism
Post by: Rob Dekker on May 10, 2018, 09:58:38 AM
Rob would you please clarify something for me. Are those two pages you gave the urls for the sum total of all the evidence Bellingcat has about the alleged Douma incident on the 7th April?

Why don't you address the evidence in these two urls first.
Title: Re: RussiaGate And The Media: Examples of Good AND Bad Journalism
Post by: Martin Gisser on May 10, 2018, 11:28:43 AM
ASILurker isn't the only one here having a problem with Bellingcat.
E.g.:
That was a really good Medium article (https://medium.com/@caityjohnstone/atlantic-council-explains-why-we-need-to-be-propagandized-for-our-own-good-fd3470254ea5), Terry. Thanks.

P.S./Edit: Quoth article:
Quote
the discredited war propaganda firm Bellingcat
Title: Re: RussiaGate And The Media: Examples of Good AND Bad Journalism
Post by: TerryM on May 10, 2018, 11:50:18 AM

So, how about you respond to that first and also answer my last question directly? A yes or no is not too difficult. You are the resident expert on bellingcat here not me. Why can't you address the separate thread issue even? A simple no will be fine if you're not interested and I'll move on.
Possibly Rob is the "resident expert on bellingcat", but I knew and interacted with Eliot Higgins before he came up with that moniker.
As Brown Moses, an unemployed ladies underwear salesman living in his mother's home he participated, or tried to participate in the crowd sourced investigations that began as the Ukraine civil war cranked up. He changed his handle when Brown Moses became a magnet for constant derision because of his blind insistence that Russia was always at fault regardless of what the evidence showed.
As bellingcat he attempted a less inflammatory tone and every post promoted his new web site. To say I was never a fan would be an understatement.
He set great store in his mastery of some on line war game, but how that skill set intersected with an understanding of military strategy or an understanding of fast moving action on the ground escaped me.

Bellingcat today is much more than Eliot pounding away on a computer in his mom's basement. The spooks it seems have pretty well taken over the site, no doubt allowing Eliot to get back to playing his favorite war game.

Arguing with Eliot/Dark Moses/bellingcat always proved useless, I prefered to ignore him, but those that simply laughed at his antics proved to be more effective.

If you followed the Ukraine situation at all you'll remember Graham Phillips as the brave British journalist who was always showing up at awkward times with his camera running. Arrested at least once, he always managed to get back into Ukraine. He posted at the same site as I and Eliot, and has some choice words about Higgins.

https://thetruthspeaker.co/2016/02/28/eliot-higgins-of-bellingcat-who-is-he-everything-you-need-to-know/

I haven't read the whole thing but do remember his concerns about Eliot back in the day.
Terry
Title: Re: RussiaGate And The Media: Examples of Good AND Bad Journalism
Post by: Martin Gisser on May 10, 2018, 12:24:14 PM
If you followed the Ukraine situation at all you'll remember Graham Phillips as the brave British journalist who was always showing up at awkward times with his camera running.
Hahaaaahaha... A brave "embedded reporter" for Russia.
Title: Re: RussiaGate And The Media: Examples of Good AND Bad Journalism
Post by: TerryM on May 10, 2018, 12:50:34 PM

Hahaaaahaha... A brave "embedded reporter" for Russia.


He actually spent far more time with the Kiev forces than with the Donbass rebels.
Didn't you watch any of his broadcasts?
Lousy video and no "stage presence", but a valuable documentarian nonetheless. We'd be arguing about what had happened at a certain place, then he'd show up with his camera and put us straight.


I believe it was he who was the first to notice and document that the trees had been cut down that would have verified which side used snipers at Maidana. We'd been sure that by noting which direction the bullets in the trees came from we'd be able to identify the guilty party. Two days later those trees were gone.
Terry
Title: Re: RussiaGate And The Media: Examples of Good AND Bad Journalism
Post by: Martin Gisser on May 10, 2018, 01:07:44 PM
Someone who calls himself "the truth speaker" is almost certainly no journalist, but a propagandist. His videos confirm that first impression. You could as well cite RT.

(https://forum.arctic-sea-ice.net/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=2272.0;attach=99651;image)(Image source: UK Russian embassy tweet)
Title: Re: RussiaGate And The Media: Examples of Good AND Bad Journalism
Post by: Susan Anderson on May 10, 2018, 04:19:20 PM
The best reporting in my opinion comes from The New Yorker. Here are a few. They've continuously broken the news about Trump's shady mob and moneylaundering connections and items like the latest Black Cube revelations (some of this is off topic, but the stench of corruption across the board and over a lifetime of Trump and his "fixer" and destroyers like Pruitt is hard to miss). Unfortunately, the bad news is coming so fast and furious that real corruption gets buried as yesterday's news.

Quote
The Michael Cohen Revelations Are a Crash Course in Shady Corporate Entities
https://www.newyorker.com/news/news-desk/the-michael-cohen-revelations-are-a-crash-course-in-shady-corporate-entities (https://www.newyorker.com/news/news-desk/the-michael-cohen-revelations-are-a-crash-course-in-shady-corporate-entities)

The following is only relevant in that Russian interests in the region support Assad:
Quote
The premise of diplomatic outreach was to create conditions for eventual coöperation with Iran on other flashpoints in the world’s most volatile region. Instead, danger looms for deepening tensions in hot spots such as Syria, Iraq, Lebanon, and Yemen—countries where the United States and Iran have rival interests. “By forfeiting American leadership in the one successful multilateral deal in the volatile Middle East, Trump could possibly make a bad situation worse,” Wendy Chamberlin, a former career diplomat who is now the president of the Middle East Institute, in Washington, told me. Trump Destroys the Iran Deal—and a Lot More
https://www.newyorker.com/news/news-desk/trump-destroys-the-iran-dealand-a-lot-more

Quote
Israeli Operatives Who Aided Harvey Weinstein Collected Information on Former Obama Administration Officials
https://www.newyorker.com/news/news-desk/israeli-operatives-who-aided-harvey-weinstein-collected-information-on-former-obama-administration-officials
Title: Re: RussiaGate And The Media: Examples of Good AND Bad Journalism
Post by: Niall Dollard on May 10, 2018, 08:49:00 PM
The look on BBC's anchor Jo Coburn when Home Affairs Correspondent Dominic Casciani mentions MI6's involvement in torture during a live interview today.

I thought they would have had a delay on these "live" interviews. Oops !

link to video on twitter:

https://twitter.com/thepileus/status/994555387117559811



 
Title: Re: RussiaGate And The Media: Examples of Good AND Bad Journalism
Post by: Neven on May 10, 2018, 08:56:01 PM
My goodness, what was that all about?
Title: Re: RussiaGate And The Media: Examples of Good AND Bad Journalism
Post by: Niall Dollard on May 10, 2018, 09:02:25 PM
Belhaj rendition: UK apology over Libyan dissident treatment.

The settlement is the first time ministers have apologised for a specific act involving British security agencies.

More about the case here, Neven:

http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-44070304

Title: Re: RussiaGate And The Media: Examples of Good AND Bad Journalism
Post by: magnamentis on May 10, 2018, 09:17:36 PM
Belhaj rendition: UK apology over Libyan dissident treatment.

The settlement is the first time ministers have apologised for a specific act involving British security agencies.

More about the case here, Neven:

http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-44070304

first time in centuries, whow, progress is everywhere [JK]
Title: Re: RussiaGate And The Media: Examples of Good AND Bad Journalism
Post by: Niall Dollard on May 11, 2018, 12:11:05 AM
The look on BBC's anchor Jo Coburn when Home Affairs Correspondent Dominic Casciani mentions MI6's involvement in torture during a live interview today.

I thought they would have had a delay on these "live" interviews. Oops !


The embarrassing BBC video is no longer "available" now on the twitter link I posted earlier. Another bit of censorship, I presume. But it is now up on you tube.

https://youtu.be/coXS2d0Hljo
Title: Re: RussiaGate And The Media: Examples of Good AND Bad Journalism
Post by: Rob Dekker on May 11, 2018, 06:23:26 AM
Rob would you please clarify something for me. Are those two pages you gave the urls for the sum total of all the evidence Bellingcat has about the alleged Douma incident on the 7th April?

Why don't you address the evidence in these two urls first.

To make it easier and less time consuming for both of us, how about instead you chose only one piece of evidence that you accept as a highly compelling part of the bellingcat narrative?

That method is actually going to be time consuming, but if you insist :

The scientific method works by making multiple independent observations to test theories. You rule out theories that don't match the observations. With enough observations, you end up with one theory, which must be the truth.

You proposed a theory (that the gas attack never happened), so all you need to do is explain how all the evidence fits in your theory.

You can start with the first video in the first link, with all the dead people.
That one already debunks your theory that "nothing happened".
Something happened, and this video raises a number of questions for any remaining theory you may hold :

How did these people die in you theory ?
How did they get there in your theory ?
How did they get foam around the mouth in your theory ?
etc.

And remember, you are testing a theory, so you can't answer "I don't know". You need to be explicit in your answer.

After that we can go to video 2 of the first link which shows the same house, and a frosted cylinder sticking through the roof. Which raises a host of new questions.

And on and on we can go. There are 6 videos in the first link alone.

But rest assured, we have been through this already.
If you claim it was a "false flag" attack then you need to answer a LOT of questions.
This guy has 22 of them for you :

https://feitoffake.wordpress.com/2018/05/09/a-douma-chemical-attack-false-flag-scenario-does-not-make-sense-at-all-here-is-why/
Title: Re: RussiaGate And The Media: Examples of Good AND Bad Journalism
Post by: Rob Dekker on May 11, 2018, 06:55:10 AM
ASILurker isn't the only one here having a problem with Bellingcat.
E.g.:
That was a really good Medium article (https://medium.com/@caityjohnstone/atlantic-council-explains-why-we-need-to-be-propagandized-for-our-own-good-fd3470254ea5), Terry. Thanks.

P.S./Edit: Quoth article:
Quote
the discredited war propaganda firm Bellingcat

I know. And it is disappointing.
This is supposed to be a forum where people argue scientifically, and with reason and evidence.
Since in open source journalism the evidence is there for everyone to verify and criticize, I would have expected that this method would be welcomed with open arms.

Instead, we see relentless attempts to discredit Bellingcat and Eliot Higgins personally with ad hominem attacks, lots of criticism of their associations and funding. But NO attempt to discredit them on the evidence and reasoning they present.

It's really not difficult to discredit and open-source journalism article. Just point out a mistake in their geolocation, or any other part of the analysis. Or point out a mistake in their reasoning.
There are many open-source investigations that have been discredited because the journalist made a mistake.

The thing with Bellingcat is that they are very good in their analyses, and their conclusions are conservative. They don't overreach. In fact, they have never been proven incorrect in their any part of their analysis or conclusions. They are the best in uncovering the truth based on open source information.

Which makes them a BIG threat for everyone who has a pre-conceived opinion, has a bias, or is in the business of spreading propaganda
Title: Re: RussiaGate And The Media: Examples of Good AND Bad Journalism
Post by: Susan Anderson on May 11, 2018, 07:31:39 AM
Here are some trustworthy resources on the Douma attack etc.:
https://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2018/04/23/trumps-erratic-threats-to-bashar-al-assad (https://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2018/04/23/trumps-erratic-threats-to-bashar-al-assad)
https://www.nytimes.com/2018/04/16/world/middleeast/syria-douma-chemical-attack.html (https://www.nytimes.com/2018/04/16/world/middleeast/syria-douma-chemical-attack.html)
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2018/apr/26/obscene-masquerade-russia-criticised-over-douma-chemical-attack-denial (https://www.theguardian.com/world/2018/apr/26/obscene-masquerade-russia-criticised-over-douma-chemical-attack-denial)

Though it provides the least detail about the coverup some of you are eager to validate, The New Yorker's fine overview is worth pondering. Somebody, perhaps, will back off their partisanship and open their minds to the disastrous state of affairs of reality today. I'm not burking my country's sins over time, any more than a German or Austrian can deny the holocaust. We're big trouble, the US today. Getting Democrats to fight with each other is easy. This stuff is hard.

Quote
Poison gas, which kills with particular cruelty and indiscriminateness, has been internationally outlawed since shortly after the First World War, but in Syria it has become a conventional weapon. (Human Rights Watch has confirmed more than fifty government attacks.) Assad regularly uses chlorine for tactical advantage, and it works—the attack on Douma, coming at the end of two months of bombardment, forced rebels to surrender one of their last important strongholds. But he is also making a point: he is showing Syrians that he will do whatever it takes to hold on to power, that they are helpless, that no one will come to their aid.

Who can argue otherwise? Most of the gas attacks have gone unremarked upon in the outside world, unless they result in horrible pictures, and in those cases the Western response has been so uncertain that it has only encouraged Assad to keep going. Whether the American President is a judicious rationalist who cares about international law and disdains the cowboy image or an impulsive narcissist who is indifferent to every norm and just wants to look tough, the images from Syria are the same.

Trump is in an especially bad position to respond to these atrocities. Unlike every other President since Jimmy Carter, he doesn’t even offer human rights the compliment of hypocrisy. His foreign policy is simple: might makes right. He has championed brutal rulers, like the Philippine President, Rodrigo Duterte, and the Saudi royal family; shrugged at genocidal killings in Burma; and pushed our military to use levels of violence that have sent civilian casualties in Syria, Iraq, and Afghanistan soaring. Under Trump, it is nearly impossible for refugees from the Syrian civil war to find a haven in this country. John Bolton, his new national-security adviser, describes international organizations and treaties as threats to U.S. sovereignty. On what ground can the Administration punish Assad for defying an international weapons ban and killing civilians?

Seven years of indecision have left us the weakest outside power in the war. Russia and Iran have committed fighters, weapons, aircraft, and a readiness to justify any inhumanity and tell any lie on behalf of their client in Damascus, and now Assad is close to the ultimate Pyrrhic victory. Turkey, defying American pleas, is waging a brutal campaign against the Kurdish People’s Protection Units, our only reliable partner and the ground force largely responsible for crushing the Islamic State. U.S. diplomacy was never aligned with the leverage in Syria that comes with force, and now we have no diplomacy at all. Any action that Trump takes will be feckless at best and possibly disastrous—triggering conflict with Russia, or the war with Iran that Bolton and others want—for there is no strategy to guide it except to “bomb the shit out of them” and get out. Even a joint attack with European allies would be empty without a larger effort to negotiate an end to the war.
Title: Re: RussiaGate And The Media: Examples of Good AND Bad Journalism
Post by: Martin Gisser on May 11, 2018, 12:26:06 PM
ASILurker isn't the only one here having a problem with Bellingcat.
E.g.:
That was a really good Medium article (https://medium.com/@caityjohnstone/atlantic-council-explains-why-we-need-to-be-propagandized-for-our-own-good-fd3470254ea5), Terry. Thanks.

P.S./Edit: Quoth article:
Quote
the discredited war propaganda firm Bellingcat

I know. And it is disappointing.
This is supposed to be a forum where people argue scientifically, and with reason and evidence.
Since in open source journalism the evidence is there for everyone to verify and criticize, I would have expected that this method would be welcomed with open arms.

Instead, we see relentless attempts to discredit Bellingcat and Eliot Higgins personally with ad hominem attacks, lots of criticism of their associations and funding. But NO attempt to discredit them on the evidence and reasoning they present.

It's really not difficult to discredit and open-source journalism article. Just point out a mistake in their geolocation, or any other part of the analysis. Or point out a mistake in their reasoning.
There are many open-source investigations that have been discredited because the journalist made a mistake.

The thing with Bellingcat is that they are very good in their analyses, and their conclusions are conservative. They don't overreach. In fact, they have never been proven incorrect in their any part of their analysis or conclusions. They are the best in uncovering the truth based on open source information.

Which makes them a BIG threat for everyone who has a pre-conceived opinion, has a bias, or is in the business of spreading propaganda

For some time I'm entertaining the "theory" of a cultural-evolutionary split of Homo Sapiens Sapiens into Homo Sapiens Erectus (who tries to walk his brains upright) and Homo Sapiens Trumpensis.
Half of mankind just can't stand reality anymore.
This is not a matter of intelligence or education. To the contrary, intelligent and educated people can make up and rationalize even more bullshit to feed the whims of their ego.

This forum gives some evidence for my theory. And I have some more here in Germany, where non-stupid are eager to believe blatantly obvious hate propaganda from the neonazi AfD party.

I wouldn't have cared much in last century. But meanwhile, given the planetary scale problems this century we (plus planet) can not afford to let Homo Sapiens Trumpensis win the race. We need to grow up and get our heads out of the clouds and revisit the ground below our feet. Time to choose sides.

On Facebook my personal algorithm automatically de-friends anybody who shares Breitbart, RT, etc. In real life I just quit friendship and contact with someone I thought was politically very savvy - but now consumes AfD propaganda (knives, knives...)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U6zWjUhfj-M

Title: Re: RussiaGate And The Media: Examples of Good AND Bad Journalism
Post by: TerryM on May 11, 2018, 12:30:48 PM
Rob
Your admonition against ad-hominem is well taken - and back at you.


Eliot isn't wrong because he's an unrepentant ass, he's an unrepentant ass because he is wrong and won't admit it.


Susan
Aren't journalists that actually go to a site to interview witnesses generally considered more reliable than those that stay at their desks while writing of events unfolding half a world away?


Terry


edit -
Martin
Facebook! You maintain a presence on Facebook!
My understanding is that this alone can alter your internet experience. Cambridge Analytica isn't the only one using that data.
Title: Re: RussiaGate And The Media: Examples of Good AND Bad Journalism
Post by: Neven on May 11, 2018, 01:30:28 PM
Yes, Martin, how about a personal algorithm that takes you of Facebook?  ;D

I deleted my account on LinkedIn today, as I was quite fed up with the manipulative mails they were sending me every day.
Title: Re: RussiaGate And The Media: Examples of Good AND Bad Journalism
Post by: Martin Gisser on May 11, 2018, 01:44:56 PM
Martin
Facebook! You maintain a presence on Facebook!
My understanding is that this alone can alter your internet experience. Cambridge Analytica isn't the only one using that data.
Not for me. I understand Internets dynamics, having used it since last century. My first email ca. 1992 from a VAX account took 1 day to cross the Atlantic... Post 9/11 2001 I was part of a subversive/artistic group, fooling and feeding the primitive NSA algorithms with crazy email texts (then they got stuck/delayed in Taiwan), playing virtual brain surgeon, catching google bots in self-replicating pages until my server broke down...

I called FB a "stupidity amplifier" in 2016 before the term "fake news" became popular. Back then I used FB mostly to watch the U.S. election.
But, it can also be the reverse. It all depends what FB friends you choose. Like you look into the Internets it looks back at you.

-------------------------------------

The Facebook Sutta (SN 57.1)
by Bernat Font

Thus have I imagined. At one time, the Fortunate One was staying in Silicon Valley. There, he addressed the bhikkhus thus: “Bhikkhus.” “Venerable sir,” they replied.

“These things should not be cultivated with regards to Facebook by one gone forth. Which things? Thoughts of greed, thoughts of aversion, ignorance of filter bubbles. One who has entered the eightfold path does not engage in individuality-view posting, nor crave for likes, nor has the conceit ‘I share’.

“Bhikkhus, when an uninstructed person senses a post with his device, which is an advertisement, a TED Talk, an impressive headline, thoughts of greed arise in him. Why? Here, bhikkhus, an uninstructed person gives inappropriate attention to the sign of instant, magical solutions. Thus, when an uninstructed person senses a post with their device, which is an advertisement, a TED Talk, an impressive headline, thoughts of greed arise in him.

“Bhikkhus, when an uninstructed person senses a post with her device, which is a rant, an alarmist article, an impressive headline, thoughts of aversion arise in her. Why? Here, bhikkhus, an uninstructed person gives inappropriate attention to the sign of fatalism. Thus, when an uninstructed person senses a post with their device, which is a rant, a catastrophist article, an impressive headline, thoughts of aversion arise in her.

“Whenever an uninstructed person goes online, Mara stands besides him.

“Bhikkhus, when a noble disciple senses a post with his device, which is an advertisement, a TED Talk, an impressive headline, he reflects thus: this is harmful, it leads to craving, to renewed frustration and seeking, it obstructs wise action, it takes away freedom. Here, bhikkhus, seeing much danger, a noble disciple gives appropriate attention to the sign of unsatisfactoriness. He is filled with thoughts of contentment and applies himself to the training, diligent, clearly comprehending and mindful.

“Bhikkhus, when a noble disciple senses a post with her device, which is a rant, an alarmist article, an impressive headline, she reflects thus: this is harmful, it leads to anger, bitterness and despair, it obstructs wise action, it leads away from peace, right speech and freedom. Here, bhikkhus, seeing little benefit, a noble disciple gives appropriate attention to the sign of unsatisfactoriness. She is filled with thoughts of friendliness and applies herself to the training, diligent, clearly comprehending and mindful.

“When going online, a noble disciple is careful to abide in the appropriate pasture. The life of the deviceholder is dusty, full of filters and notifications, but life gone forth is wide open.”

This is what the Fortunate One said, and the bhikkhus delighted in the Fortunate One’s words, and shared them on social media.

Commentary from the author

Literary divertimentos aside, I think social media is such a part of our saeculum and of the world (loka) of those of my generation, that it should be given proper attention from spiritual traditions, philosophies and practices. Several studies have found that, in the way it interacts with our brain, it has the same addictive potential as alcohol, drugs and gambling. Recently, Jay Michaelson wrote in Tricycle that social media should be included in the fifth precept and, at least, be approached with the same moderation that one treats other judgement-obscuring, mindfulness-reducing substances or activities. I recognize the impulse to check my phone in empty moments. It’s strong. Because this is the online world, we are led to think that it is less real or doesn’t have consequences as real, but it conditions us just like anything else. By not including it in those areas where spiritual growth occurs, we are hindered.

If the dharma is about reducing our reactivity, we must consider whether the way we use social media contributes to or undermines such a project. I’d say that the ‘aim’ of Facebook is quite at odds with the aspirations of the dharma. I open my Facebook newsfeed and most of what I see are videos either of that one secret that will magically solve my relationships, my health, my learning a new language, or of the last outrageous incident in the world of politics, corporations, environment, etc. And frankly, they don’t help me solve my life nor enjoin me to change the world. They mainly entertain me. Social media encourage a numb-observer approach to whatever happens, quite unlike the detached observer of meditation: one does react with desire or aversion, one doesn’t discern what’s beneficial and what is not and then translate it into wise actions or greater empathy. To be fair, sharing things through Facebook has the potential for these skillful responses, but it generates far more of unskillful ones that simply agitate us.

Not only does it encourage the first two fires, it also embodies the third. In his reflections on the roots of social dukkha, David Loy suggests that the mass media is an institutionalized form of delusion. On the internet, this manifests as filter bubbles and echo chambers. Facebook, Google, Netflix, Youtube, Amazon, etc. gather data of one’s searches and one’s preferences and use them to determine what is shown to you: I do not see reality, everything that’s out there, I only see what these filters let me, and I can’t access their criteria or know what they have excluded from my sight. One ends up only meeting those things, which already conform to one’s ideas and preferences, which doesn’t really help in the task of gaining freedom. Social media also teach us to filter our experience. People do not share whatever meaningful thing that happens to them: they share what makes their life look amazing and special. Does this not get us used to denying whole areas of our human existence? How do we square this with the first great task of fully knowing and embracing dukkha?

https://bodhi-college.org/buddhist-articles-videos-links/facebook-sutta-sn-57-1

---------------------
Further commentary from me:

Sutta (Pali) = Sutra (Sanskrit)
Bhikkhu (Pali) = Male Monk
Mara = Buddhist devil, tempter

The https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Samyutta_Nikaya (above abbreviated SN) has 56 chapters. Bhikkhu Bodhi's english translation has 2000 pages. It is just one book of the Pali canon, an amazingly huge amount of text (dwarfing the semitic "religions of the book"). Much however is repetition or variation of the same phrases (like the beginning of the above text), a bit boring to read and find the real gems. That style was to accomodate memorization, as the texts were not written down for ca. 2 centuries. Quite amazing for 1000s of pages of text.


Bernat Font from Barcelona/Spain deserves to be well known to the Jazz piano afficionado, but his trio is just a local celebrity. Once I was silently (but very interactively) washing dishes with him at a silent retreat - and it occured to me that this must be a Jazz musician. He is indeed a piano titan.
Title: Re: RussiaGate And The Media: Examples of Good AND Bad Journalism
Post by: TerryM on May 11, 2018, 03:24:51 PM
Sorry
I'm an unrepentant Pastafarian. No god but the one true FSM.
Ramen
Terry


PS
I wasn't heavily involved in digital communication until we moved away from the 300 baud acoustics and into the modern age at 1200 baud. It was amazing, whole words would flash onto your screen as opposed to waiting patiently as each letter revealed itself. We could alter and correct code and send it out without waiting all night for the transmission.
There was a prohibitive tariff on modems at that time, so we received them in bulk from Japan and "assembled"  them by snaping the two sides together. :)
My favorite list at the time had participants from Shanghai to Egypt, and no untoward lags in communication. Archie and Veronica - how cool was that!
Didn't have my first web page up until 93, and soon with HTML-2 I could even do columns!
I had the 2nd Mensa group website out there. A friend in Orange County beat me to it while I was recovering from a bad cold. :'(


Ain't history great!
but what does it have to do with Russiagate and the Media?
Title: Re: RussiaGate And The Media: Examples of Good AND Bad Journalism
Post by: Martin Gisser on May 11, 2018, 04:10:12 PM
Sorry
I'm an unrepentant Pastafarian. No god but the one true FSM.
Ramen
Terry
Good. I'm an unrepentant anti-metaphysicist and anti-theist (forget atheism, the other side of the god coin.) No god (incl. no not-god, it's all superfluous neuron wasting bullshit), no rebirth (except within one's lifetime - there's the rub).

The above text by Bernat Font is from Stephen Batchelor's school of no non-sense "secular Buddhism" (a term I don't like - fuck this fucking saeculum). It is all about this life and the continuous re-cycling (rebirthing) of our dukkha ("suffering" - a very simplistic translation). Now with a whole new dimension as internet dukkha.

If you want to see how far this internet dukkha can lead, have a look at the role of Facebook in the Rohingya crisis in Myanmar - the ultimate, shocking, disgrace of classical Theravada Buddhism.
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2018/apr/03/revealed-facebook-hate-speech-exploded-in-myanmar-during-rohingya-crisis

------------

but what does it have to do with Russiagate and the Media?
The dynamics of bullshit bubbles is nothing new to me. E.g. you "enjoy" your Russian bullshit bubbles.
Title: Re: RussiaGate And The Media: Examples of Good AND Bad Journalism
Post by: Susan Anderson on May 11, 2018, 04:54:39 PM
One friend put it well. He said, if anyone spied on his Facebook they might learn something. Meanwhile, it's a terrific organizing tool, for example, for the teachers' strikes and kids protests against guns here. It is used for good and for evil, and sadly nobody is in charge. Personally, I handicap myself by refusing to use it, but that's just me. However, I am here, which is in some ways just as bad, since it is so self-indulgent to think it is useful to continue the same argument with the same small group of people over months and years, which changes nothing.

People hear and don't hear what they want and don't want to hear. I've spent a good bit of time as a "seeker" (yoga: Satchidananda ashram in US, left-leaning Christian, and, ultimately, mahayana Buddhism) and learned a lot from it, and tend to get irritated with people who think they can isolate the world from religion, which has been a dominant force since the beginning of time. People make god in their own image, mostly, but a lot of good as well as bad is done in the name of those "higher powers".

However, recently I have come to feel that the indoctrination into believing things that can't be seen or proven and don't fit with reality predisposes people to discount reality. Hence the dismissal of facts and preference for lies. So religion, or more accurately training in holding to bigotry, is a - or perhaps the biggest - problem. Gun nuts "believe" in guns. They don't think, they feel. Thinking one is superior to others is a problem. And on and on ...

Yes, off topic. Over and out ... again.
Title: Re: RussiaGate And The Media: Examples of Good AND Bad Journalism
Post by: Alexander555 on May 11, 2018, 05:33:40 PM
" I don't know how zuckenberg can sleep at night ". Is that fair to say ? I don't think so. If it don't spreads on social media, it will just spread on the street. The only difference is that they know who spreads it, at least in some cases. And with so many people comming together in all these big cities, it can spread as easely on the street in these days i think. Maybe it even keeps some people of the street, if you see how many hours they spend on the internet.
Title: Re: RussiaGate And The Media: Examples of Good AND Bad Journalism
Post by: sidd on May 11, 2018, 07:51:32 PM
medialens.org is a useful antidote to corporate media: here is their takedown of Corbyn coverage:

"If there is one message from last week, it's a simple one – dump the corporate media; all of it."

http://medialens.org/index.php/alerts/alert-archive/2017/850-the-breaking-of-the-corporate-media-monopoly.html

Jonathan Cook on Monbiot's refusal (or inability?) to name the problem:

"This blindness even by a “radical” like Monbiot to structural problems in the media is not accidental either. Realistically, the furthest he can go is where he went today in his column: suggesting organisational flaws in the corporate media, ones that can be fixed, rather than structural ones that cannot without rethinking entirely how the media functions. Monbiot will not – and cannot – use the pages of the Guardian to argue that his employer is structurally incapable of providing diverse and representative coverage."

https://www.jonathan-cook.net/blog/2017-06-14/monbiot-still-cant-admit-medias-core-problem/

sidd

Title: Re: RussiaGate And The Media: Examples of Good AND Bad Journalism
Post by: sidd on May 11, 2018, 08:03:41 PM
What is suppressed is worth watching: And how it is done:

“Unless we all start to believe in conspiracy theories and that the officials are lying, that I am lying, that behind this there is some kind of secret state which is in league with some dark forces in the United States … there simply is no truth in the claims that the United Kingdom has been involved in rendition.”

Heeheehee. Now that's funny.

"Whitehall officials have described the rendition of Belhaj and his wife as the result of “ministerially authorised government policy”. After a four-year police investigation, Britain’s Crown Prosecution Service announced that neither Straw nor Allen would face charges, because of insufficient evidence; though it said Allen had “sought political authority for some of his actions, albeit not within a formal written process nor in detail…”. "

"For six years government lawyers fought tooth and nail in the courts to prevent the disclosure of any more incriminating evidence. After today’s statement to MPs by the attorney general, Jeremy Wright, we are none the wiser about where the responsibility lies. "

"The Gibson inquiry was halted when evidence of the Belhaj case emerged. Cameron decided to hand it all over to the prime minister’s intelligence and security committee of MPs and peers. That committee, which meets in private ... "

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2018/may/10/abdel-hakim-belhaj-rendition-who-did-it-mi6-scandal-same-old-excuse

Nothing to see here citizen. Go about your business.

sidd
Title: Re: RussiaGate And The Media: Examples of Good AND Bad Journalism
Post by: Neven on May 11, 2018, 09:55:51 PM
Caitlin Johnstone on How to Silence RT Forever

https://caitlinjohnstone.com/2018/05/07/how-to-silence-rt-forever/

Should appease everyone - of maybe not. :)
Terry

Wow, very strong stuff.

Some quotes:

Quote
It always comes back to RT. Because of the network’s relatively high profile in comparison to other Russian media, it has been made into an ideal Emmanuel Goldstein for the empire’s daily Two Minutes Hate. RT is now so completely reviled by establishment loyalists that citing it in an online debate will be taken as an instant debunk of not just the point you were trying to make but of your entire position (and often your humanity itself by getting you labeled a “Russian bot”), even if your citation is comprised entirely of independently verifiable facts.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t4zYlOU7Fpk

Luckily for the screaming hysterical Big Brother devotees, there is a very easy and 100 percent guaranteed way to get RT removed from western airwaves forever. Are you ready? Here it is:

Allow leftist and antiwar perspectives to be voiced on western mainstream media.

That’s it. That’s the whole entire recipe for RT’s destruction. If western media simply ceased deliberately excluding leftist and antiwar voices from mainstream discourse, there would no longer be any demand for RT’s output, since the only reason anyone outside of Russia watches RT is to get perspectives they can’t get anywhere else.

A few leftist, antiwar and activism-oriented programs on stations like BBC and MSNBC is all it would take to kill any interest in RT’s programming and steal their entire audience. They wouldn’t ever have to have a single Russian on their programs; there is an abundance of home-grown talent with clear antiwar, anti-capitalism, pro-environment perspectives to keep reliably churning out fresh content on a daily basis, and there is simply no way RT’s feeble budget would be able to keep up.

(...)

This is a surefire way to get rid of RT without violating the US Constitution, committing unprecedented acts of government censorship, or having anything whatsoever to do with the Kremlin. But of course, we all know that it will never happen.

It will never happen because RT is not the real enemy. Leftists and antiwar activists are the real enemy.

Let me Buddify that last sentence for you: RUSSIA TODAY IS NOT THE REAL ENEMY. LEFTIST AND ANTIWAR ACTIVISTS ARE THE REAL ENEMY.
Title: Re: RussiaGate And The Media: Examples of Good AND Bad Journalism
Post by: TerryM on May 12, 2018, 03:39:30 PM
An outstanding  example of how the media should be reporting on technical progress:

https://youtu.be/RXJKdh1KZ0w

Terry
Title: Re: RussiaGate And The Media: Examples of Good AND Bad Journalism
Post by: AbruptSLR on May 12, 2018, 04:59:13 PM
You can't make this stuff up:

Title: "Chatter Grows About Trump’s Nobel Peace Prize Prospects"

https://www.snopes.com/ap/2018/05/11/chatter-grows-trumps-nobel-peace-prize-prospects/

Extract: "President Donald Trump's supporters are pushing for him to be the next U.S. leader to win the Nobel Peace Prize — a move that's being met by smirks and eye rolls in Europe, where Trump remains deeply unpopular."
Title: Re: RussiaGate And The Media: Examples of Good AND Bad Journalism
Post by: Martin Gisser on May 12, 2018, 06:53:18 PM
Caitlin Johnstone on How to Silence RT Forever

https://caitlinjohnstone.com/2018/05/07/how-to-silence-rt-forever/

Should appease everyone - of maybe not. :)
Terry

Wow, very strong stuff.

Some quotes:

Quote
[...]
Allow leftist and antiwar perspectives to be voiced on western mainstream media.

That’s it. That’s the whole entire recipe for RT’s destruction. If western media simply ceased deliberately excluding leftist and antiwar voices from mainstream discourse, there would no longer be any demand for RT’s output, since the only reason anyone outside of Russia watches RT is to get perspectives they can’t get anywhere else.

A few leftist, antiwar and activism-oriented programs on stations like BBC and MSNBC is all it would take to kill any interest in RT’s programming and steal their entire audience. They wouldn’t ever have to have a single Russian on their programs; there is an abundance of home-grown talent with clear antiwar, anti-capitalism, pro-environment perspectives to keep reliably churning out fresh content on a daily basis, and there is simply no way RT’s feeble budget would be able to keep up.
[...]
It will never happen because RT is not the real enemy. Leftists and antiwar activists are the real enemy.

Reminds me of cold war propaganda from the oh sooo peaceloving Soviet Union. Now we got peaceloving RT.  ;D
Title: Re: RussiaGate And The Media: Examples of Good AND Bad Journalism
Post by: Neven on May 12, 2018, 08:26:30 PM
It will never happen because RT is not the real enemy. Leftists and antiwar activists are the real enemy.

Reminds me of cold war propaganda from the oh sooo peaceloving Soviet Union. Now we got peaceloving RT.  ;D[/quote]

Nonsense, Martin. During the Cold War there was ample room for leftists and antiwar activists in mainstream media, especially in Europe. There was a discourse, a discussion, a debate. People didn't agree, but everyone could have a say in the media. There is none of that now. Media has become a corporate monolith. And that leads to a lof of bad journalism.

Johnstone is absolutely right that Western journalists who work for RT and those in the West who watch it, do so because their voice is being suppressed everywhere else. If mainstream media would make room for these voices, no one in the west would be watching RT. But mainstream media has become a corporate monopoly (thanks to Bill Gates) that will not allow establishment narratives to be opposed, because neoliberalism is dogma, and it is of vital importance that enough people remain blind to their conditioning.

I don't see how a leftist, antiwar activist such as yourself could disagree with that, but somehow you do.
Title: Re: RussiaGate And The Media: Examples of Good AND Bad Journalism
Post by: Martin Gisser on May 13, 2018, 12:10:18 AM
But mainstream media has become a corporate monopoly (thanks to Bill Gates)
Rupert Murdoch...

Haven't read the German TAZ for some time. What about that paper? http://www.taz.de/

Last time I cared about polit stuff was before/during the Iraq war. Dunno what I read back then, but I was on Joschka Fischer's side, doubting the "mainstream" war mongers' narrative.

This time it was Trump who got me seriously interested in politics again - for the weird fascination of all the nuttery, rightwing as well as leftwing nuttery.

I got disgusted and turned away from polit stuff in the 80ies, mostly by the university super leftists who where so full of themselves. Maybe that's why I can't stand Jimmy Dore and friends.

Title: Re: RussiaGate And The Media: Examples of Good AND Bad Journalism
Post by: Susan Anderson on May 13, 2018, 05:06:29 AM
I had to block Caitlin Johnstone when Medium pushed her material on me. Garbage. I couldn't figure out why she was so "popular" until I realized it is possible on Medium to post multiple votes. Dishonest stuff intended to persuade good people to fight with each other instead of their real enemies.
Title: Re: RussiaGate And The Media: Examples of Good AND Bad Journalism
Post by: Neven on May 13, 2018, 09:30:22 AM
I'm sorry, I meant Bill Clinton, not Bill Gates. And yes, that enabled the likes of Rupert Murdoch.

Quote
Last time I cared about polit stuff was before/during the Iraq war. Dunno what I read back then, but I was on Joschka Fischer's side, doubting the "mainstream" war mongers' narrative.

A Joschka Fischer would have a hard time getting in the news nowadays, or only to be decapitated.

There is a lot of bad journalism because of the way the media landscape has been set up, and that's why people turn to RT. Not because RT is fantastic. Johnstone makes a perfectly solid argument. Or do you see a lot of leftists and antiwar activists on mainstream media? Do you see any weekly programme that questions mainstream narratives? When was the last time you saw Noam Chomsky being interviewed on US mainstream TV? Just as an example.

This is a much bigger problem than RT's propaganda. It's bad journalism at the core.
Title: Re: RussiaGate And The Media: Examples of Good AND Bad Journalism
Post by: Rob Dekker on May 14, 2018, 07:57:50 AM
ASILurker, three very long posts about Douma chemical attacks.
Is this your way of KIS (Keep It Simple) ? Or your interpretation of SMIF (Social Media Is Fun) ?

Why did you not follow the scientific approach I suggested, to test alternative theories ?

More about that is a second. First some general remarks.
You argument seems to consist of mostly two parts, both which attempt to discredit the theory that Bellingcat concluded :

1) You spend an LOT of text on pointing out inconsistencies in the exact number of victims, and the exact nature of the chemical used in the reports that Bellingcat mentions. Wether it was chlorine, organophosphate, or a mix of both.
I'd like to point out that that argument is still pretty much moot at this point, since we don't know what exactly was used. Let's wait until OPCW turns in their report. They may have some more insight.

Also, note that Bellingcat only mentioned these reports to give some context to the attack.
They explicitly did NOT use these eye witness reports in their conclusions.

If they would have, they would have mentioned organophosphate or nerve agent, since that was quite consistently mentioned my local medical workers.
Instead they mentioned only chlorine in their conclusion.

Bellingcat reached that conclusion by looking at the video evidence, NOT the eye witness accounts.

2) You also seem to doubt that the position of the cylinder, and the harness and the fence and the damage to to roof and the damage to the cylinder could not have happened by dropping the cylinder from the air. Mostly because the fence fell on top of the harness...

I'm sorry, I find that a very weak argument. You don't even know where that fence originally was, you don't know how violently the cylinder came crushing down, what the exact physical interaction was between the various parts at the time of impact, how much stuff bounded around etc etc.

Let's put it differently : If this was 'staged' as you suggest, to "make it look like" the cylinder fell from the sky, then why on Earth would they put the fence on top of the harness pieces ? That would be a silly thing to do, since skeptics like you would likely use that as an argument that it did NOT fall from the sky. So, using logic reasoning, it was likely NOT staged.
---

Besides these two main issues, you bring up many details where you attempt to discredit the theory that Bellingcat concluded as being most likely.

But where you fall short is in explaining what the alternative theory is that you have in mind.

You started that with "a truck load of recently dead bodies was transported to the building and dispersed among the scene there.", but you did not get much further than that.

For example, could you answer the 22 questions that are raised the moment you go for a 'staged' or 'false flag' scenario like that ? :
https://feitoffake.wordpress.com/2018/05/09/a-douma-chemical-attack-false-flag-scenario-does-not-make-sense-at-all-here-is-why/

Or if you want to go step by step, here is my first question :
In video 2, taken very soon after the attack, you see the cylinder head sticking through the ceiling, and it is frosted white (which would be expected after gas was released from the cylinder). In the video from the day after, the frosting has disappeared.
In your theory, how do you explain that frosting ?
Title: Re: RussiaGate And The Media: Examples of Good AND Bad Journalism
Post by: Susan Anderson on May 14, 2018, 05:15:54 PM
Too many of the good people here (and perhaps at least one is a troll?) are spending hours every day working yourselves and each other into a frenzy of blame on incomplete information.

Setting aside that much of this is wrong and some of it is possible harmful, what is the use? I cannot believe you don't all have the same sick feeling I have when I try to begin to respond to the wide range of blame addiction going around.

Really, Clinton is to blame for Noam Chomsky not being covered in the news? One does not know where to begin with that. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Noam_Chomsky (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Noam_Chomsky) He's 89.

I share Bernie's ideals (mostly) but some of his blame-assigning tactics are execrable, and some of you have fallen for them hook line and sinker. Ignore the real villains and go after people trying to make some progress who need help and allies, not circular firing squads.

You shut out MSNBC, The New York Times, The Guardian, the Washington Post, but take RT as reliable? This is indeed propaganda, and ill-informed at that. I used to appreciate RT's climate coverage, but I doubt their politics is not as advertised in its name: Russia Today. Anyone who thinks Putin isn't up to all kinds of harm isn't paying attention. Anyone who thinks Trump and the modern Republican power party are not the main source of harm since at least Reagan is ignoring the monstrous wounds of real evil while picking at scabs.

For the best news going, I do recommend The New Yorker

I've been trying to stay away, and will continue to do so. But since I'm here ...

The way you are all working each other up into a frenzy on incomplete information focused on a few proudly biased internet resources is at the very least a terrible waste of good energy and time.

[note: I am adding one more person to my "ignore" list to avoid being disgusted quite so often when I come here. Also, there are not enough hours in the day to be forever hovering over this argument, no matter how much it looks just like climate denial. If you can do something, do it. But please don't feed on your hatreds, it's not healthy.]
Title: Re: RussiaGate And The Media: Examples of Good AND Bad Journalism
Post by: Rob Dekker on May 15, 2018, 06:13:04 AM
Is this your way of KIS (Keep It Simple) ?

You refused multiple requests that were reasonable and polite to cooperate. You refused to KISSMIF. 

That's not true. You suggested :
Quote
"To make it easier and less time consuming for both of us, how about instead you chose only one piece of evidence that you accept as a highly compelling part of the bellingcat narrative? "
and I complied, suggesting that you follow the scientific method and start with the first video in the first link, and answer some questions that raises IF your theory that no gas attack happened is correct :

https://forum.arctic-sea-ice.net/index.php/topic,2272.msg153838.html#msg153838

So far, in your many lengthy posts after that, you answered only the second question to the first video in the first link (you answered : "a truck load of recently dead bodies was transported to the building"). The rest of your many lengthy posts are just ramblings without substance not following the scientific method.

So much for KISSMIF.

Quote
For your information as an encouragement to think carefully first. I have worked with both scuba tanks and commercial gas cylinders as large as the ones in the videos and a little larger. I know all about "frosting" from a rapid and from a slow steady discharge of the contents. I know how fast that frosting appears and how fast that frosting evaporates depending on the gas contents, the surrounding air, temps and humidity.

Well, if you know so much about frosting on cylinders, I'm sure you can explain how that frosting got there (video 2) if there was no gas discharge as you allege.
Title: Re: RussiaGate And The Media: Examples of Good AND Bad Journalism
Post by: Rob Dekker on May 15, 2018, 07:04:07 AM
You shut out MSNBC, The New York Times, The Guardian, the Washington Post, but take RT as reliable? This is indeed propaganda, and ill-informed at that. I used to appreciate RT's climate coverage, but I doubt their politics is not as advertised in its name: Russia Today. Anyone who thinks Putin isn't up to all kinds of harm isn't paying attention. Anyone who thinks Trump and the modern Republican power party are not the main source of harm since at least Reagan is ignoring the monstrous wounds of real evil while picking at scabs.

For the best news going, I do recommend The New Yorker

I agree, Susan.

The attacks against mainstream media on this forum is bizarre, and more in line with what Trump would advertise. Also, I don't like it at all that all mainstream media seem to be judged by the same sword : All western media networks are designated as "corporate media" on this forum, including crowd sourced NPR apparently and government funded BBC to give a few particularly non-corporate networks.

For some reason that eludes me, RT is considered not corporate, and even "anti-war" even though RT is funded by the Russian government, which in itself serves the interests of Russian industry, and RT's non-stop support of Russia's war effort in Ukraine and Syria, designating their aggression as "self-defense" and "peace making" respectively in a clear display of Russian propaganda.

Meanwhile the truth is that the Russians are bombing civilian targets in Ukraine and bombing hospitals and mosques in Syria.

Also, the ad hominem attacks on this forum against the one form of journalism (open source journalism) that has been best in exposing the hypocrisy of Russia's wars is despicable.
 
Here is a great article from the New Yorker, which highlights how open source journalism can really make a difference in fact-based reasoning, if it is done right. It highlights how Eliot Higgins and his blog (Brown Moses at the time, Bellingcat now) just keeps on getting things right, and expose the truth publicly verifiable evidence :

https://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2013/11/25/rocket-man-2

Nobody has been able to debunk ANY of the articles they have published so far. Which is amazing, if you consider the importance of the conclusions that they have been drawing regarding the use of chemical weapons in Syria, exposing the lies by the Russian Ministry of Defense, to the identification of the Russian BUK that shot down MH17, and much, much more. And yes, also showing that US bombs were used against a Yemen wedding party.

By exposing the truth using publicly available evidence, Bellingcat, and open-source journalism in general, is a HUGE threat to propaganda efforts from RT and the 'alternative media' that parrot that propaganda (propornot.com has a list).

I guess that's why Eliot Higgins and Bellingcat at despised on this forum.
Title: Re: RussiaGate And The Media: Examples of Good AND Bad Journalism
Post by: GeoffBeacon on May 15, 2018, 11:53:43 AM
ASILurker

Very impressed by the Obama Era video of Joshua Landis.
https://youtu.be/RNI_5fGR-a0

Has he said more recently?

Historically, France and Britain seem to have set the scene for the continuing disasters.

Did they realise what they were doing?

Were there particular individuals responsible? - or is that a stupid question?
Title: Re: RussiaGate And The Media: Examples of Good AND Bad Journalism
Post by: GeoffBeacon on May 16, 2018, 02:17:19 AM
ASILurker

Thanks.

I think I see these terrible events in a better perspective now.
Title: Re: RussiaGate And The Media: Examples of Good AND Bad Journalism
Post by: Martin Gisser on May 16, 2018, 03:59:35 PM
 tl;dnr - except:
9) Noting here that white foam like that is NOT a symptom of chlorine gas poisoning.
Nope:
Quoth http://www.vlib.us/medical/gaswar/chlorine.htm
Quote
The first effect produced by the irritant action of the gas is a profuse exudation of a thin, light yellow, albuminous fluid by the bronchial mucous membrane, as well as a very active secretion by the lachrymal and salivary glands; these are the results of protective reflexes, the object of which is to dilute the irritant poison and render it innocuous. At the same time spasm of the bronchial muscles occurs in an attempt to obstruct the passage of the gas into the alveoli. In severe cases the bronchial secretion and spasm not only fail to protect the alveoli, but obstruct the entry of air into the lungs, to such an extent that the patient becomes asphyxiated and may die before the fluid is expectorated and the spasm relaxes.
Title: Re: RussiaGate And The Media: Examples of Good AND Bad Journalism
Post by: Rob Dekker on May 17, 2018, 06:46:41 AM
ASILurker, you talk too much and you say too little.
If you want to do this scientifically, you should first set up your own theory, and answer the questions that come with that. Below, I cut out all the ad hominems and irrelevant deliberations that have nothing to do with your theory. Here is what's left over :

...
In your theory, how do you explain that frosting ?

AND " if there was no gas discharge as you allege."

"if there was no gas discharge as you allege."

I never alleged that.

Well, you did, when you stated :
...That there was no bronze alloy tap fitting or regulator on this tank....

No tap, no pressure, no discharge.

Quote
So what are the possibilities if this scene was staged? How did the frosting appear on the tank when the video was taken?

1) The cylinder was planted on the patio before the 7th of april or on the night.
2) The cylinder was partly full with gas, and not necessarily chlorine.
3) There was a 'headchopper' on the patio when the video was taken.
4) Using a spanner he removed the tap/regulator, called down to the guys below and said "Hey ok, start videoing, the tank has frosting on it it now! Quick! Hurry up! Allahu Akbar my brothers!"
5) OR the tap was opened first until it was empty and then he used a spanner to remove the tap without the pressure in the tank.
6) The dead bodies were already dead for a day or several days before the 7th april.
7) They planted the bodies at the scene (not in the basement) as shown in the video.
8) Several minutes before the video was taken someone went around and sprayed white foam into the noses and mouths of some of the bodies. 

OK. This theory raises more questions than it answers.
For example, just a few that come to mind :

- Where did they get the cylinder from, and how did it get damaged ? Did the rebels toss it from high altitude first ? Or did they use a cylinder from one of Assad's previous chlorine attacks on his own people ?
- Which 'gas' did they fill this damaged cylinder with, and if it was chlorine, how and where did they produce the chlorine ? If no chlorine, which gas was it that they filled the cylinder with ?
- Who exactly are these dead people, and how exactly did they die ?

Such essential basic questions are easily answered with the default theory that Bellingcat concludes based on the evidence available.

However, they remain utterly unanswered in your 'staging' theory, which means at this point your theory is still in 'conspiracy' territory.
Title: Re: RussiaGate And The Media: Examples of Good AND Bad Journalism
Post by: Rob Dekker on May 17, 2018, 08:13:18 AM
On February 4 2018 there was a chemical attack on Saraqib, Idlib.
Bellingcat reported on this on Feb 14 :

https://www.bellingcat.com/news/mena/2018/02/14/evidence-february-4th-2018-chlorine-attack-saraqib-idlib/

In many ways this attack was similar to the Douma attack.
Same style cylinders used, same style 'harness' documented, cylinders dropped from altitude, and symptoms in victims mostly consistent with chlorine inhalation.

The main difference is that in Saraqib, only 11 people were treated with symptoms, while in Douma many fatalities were recorded. This is most likely caused by the location where the cylinders impacted, which in the case of Saraqib was an open field, while in Douma the gas was dispersed in the confinement of a house.

Now OPCW reported their findings of this attack :
https://www.opcw.org/news/article/opcw-fact-finding-mission-confirms-likely-use-of-chlorine-in-saraqib-syria/

They found mostly chlorine, but also something else :
Quote
The FFM also noted the presence of chemicals that can neither be explained as occurring naturally in the environment nor as being related to chlorine. Furthermore, some of the medical signs and symptoms reported were different to those that would be expected from exposure to pure chlorine. There was insufficient information and evidence to enable the FFM to draw any further conclusions on these chemicals at this stage.

Specifically, they found some suspicious chemicals that were also detected for attacks where sarin was used. Bellingcat reports :

https://www.bellingcat.com/news/mena/2018/05/16/opcw-ffm-report-saraqib-chlorine-attack-tells-us-douma-chemical-attack/

Quote
Samples tested by the OPCW-FFM include Diisopropyl methylphosphonate (DIMP), Isopropyl methylphosphonate (IPMPA aka IMPA), and Methylphosphonic acid (MPA), which are not byproducts of chlorine gas, but have been detected in all Sarin attacks in Syria where chemical analysis was performed by the OPCW, including the August 21st 2013 Damascus attacks, the March 30th 2017 Al Lataminah attack, and the April 4th 2017 Khan Sheikhoun attack.

The OPCW report for Douma is still weeks away, but if the same chemicals are found in Douma as were found in Saraqib, then we may have to consider that the Syrian military found a way to mix an organophosphate into a chlorine gas cylinder...

It would also explain some symptoms in Douma patients that some claim cannot be caused by chlorine alone.
Title: Re: RussiaGate And The Media: Examples of Good AND Bad Journalism
Post by: Martin Gisser on May 17, 2018, 12:23:36 PM
tl;dnr - except:
9) Noting here that white foam like that is NOT a symptom of chlorine gas poisoning.
Nope:
Quoth http://www.vlib.us/medical/gaswar/chlorine.htm
Quote
The first effect produced by the irritant action of the gas is a profuse exudation of a thin, light yellow, albuminous fluid by the bronchial mucous membrane, as well as a very active secretion by the lachrymal and salivary glands; these are the results of protective reflexes, the object of which is to dilute the irritant poison and render it innocuous. At the same time spasm of the bronchial muscles occurs in an attempt to obstruct the passage of the gas into the alveoli. In severe cases the bronchial secretion and spasm not only fail to protect the alveoli, but obstruct the entry of air into the lungs, to such an extent that the patient becomes asphyxiated and may die before the fluid is expectorated and the spasm relaxes.

Hi Martin, thanks for the extra info and questioning what was presented.

In this case it fails on a couple of points. First it contradicts the claims made several times on the Bellingcat website (url given above) of what kind of 'chemical agent' was present. Have another look.
I simply peplied to your point 9).

It's been a time that I looked at the videos, and I won't look a second time. There wasn't much foam, just a little, very consistent with the chlorine symptoms I quoted. Why do you doubt my quote?

Quote
that foam substance is not a result of chlorine poisoning
As my quote says: "very active secretion by the [...] salivary glands"

Quote
I am sorry but what you think that ref is saying does no actually refer to what I have said and why I have said.
It does.

Quote
That quote does not actually refer to the images shown in the video in question. Two different things entirely.
It is about high doseage chlorine gas poisoning. Chlorine is chlorine at any location in the universe.

Quote
I am fairly certain I have done a good job of ripping this Example of Bad Journalism to shreds.  :)
I am not. And please keep yourself shorter. Your longish rambling texts are beyond my patience.
Title: Re: RussiaGate And The Media: Examples of Good AND Bad Journalism
Post by: Neven on May 17, 2018, 11:14:22 PM
A problem we're also seeing in the ASIF microcosmos:

Quote
Dems Give Up on Trying to Get Cable News to Care About Anything but Russia

The party wants to talk health care. They really do. But they can’t get cable bookers or programmers to care.

Throughout the spring and early summer of 2017, congressional Democrats put together a comprehensive legislative and messaging plan to serve as the party’s foundation for the 2018 midterm elections.

It centered around running against the concentration of economic power—chiefly within the pharmaceutical industry—and an ambitious, multi-faceted approach to enhancing conditions for workers both within and outside the workplace.

The title was a bit cookie-cutter—”A Better Deal”—but the document was the result of numerous stakeholder meetings, strategy sessions, and late-night conferring.

Naturally, the party wanted to have a flashy debut. So lawmakers went to Berryville, Virginia—a town in a district that Democrats had lost in the 2016 elections but were poised to flip in the upcoming cycle—to formally announce the plan. When they came back to D.C, they conducted additional press briefings in hopes of flooding the news cycle.

And then Jared Kushner stepped out of the West Wing to a horde of cameras, to proclaim his innocence in the still nascent probe into Russian election meddling. “Let me be very clear,” Kushner said. “I did not collude with Russia, nor do I know of anyone else on the campaign who did so.”

In an instant, the public relations push was upended. Much of the media still covered “A Better Deal.” But cable news largely ignored it, choosing instead to chase the shiny new object presented before them by the president’s son-in-law.

“In print and other places [coverage] was great. It was online. The Times did two big stories on it. The Post had a huge picture and story. And it was everywhere else online,” said one senior Democratic Senate aide involved in the PR push. “But cable news focused on Kushner.”

Very bad journalism, exactly as TPTB want it to be.

Read the rest here (https://www.thedailybeast.com/dems-give-up-on-trying-to-get-cable-news-to-care-about-anything-but-russia).
Title: Re: RussiaGate And The Media: Examples of Good AND Bad Journalism
Post by: sidd on May 17, 2018, 11:54:34 PM
Some weeks ago Taibbi wrote of the incestuous relationship between power and press:

" "You guys are obsessed with Trump," Wolf went on, smiling. "Did you use to date him? You pretend like you hate him, but I think you love him." "

"You created this monster, and now you're profiting off of him."

"a significant portion of the national press corps genuinely gets off on the experience of being close to power"

"This is why so many journalists circle the wagons when someone dares to interrupt their public love sessions with the people who misuse our tax money, bomb innocent civilians, lie to us ... "

"Is being on the outside so bad? "

Hersh does it from the outside. Pilger does it. Fisk does it. But the vast majority fellate power.

https://www.rollingstone.com/politics/news/taibi-michelle-wolf-slays-useless-white-house-correspondents-dinner-w519682

sidd
Title: Re: RussiaGate And The Media: Examples of Good AND Bad Journalism
Post by: TerryM on May 17, 2018, 11:59:30 PM
A Better Deal!
Visions of government health care, higher wages, workers rights, but I never heard of it, and I doubt that many of the voters have either.


Most Dems here prefer breathless posts about Stormy's lawyers latest revelation, or how after a year of investigations the Mighty Mueller is (finally) going to get his man.


Great circus, but in the end the train runs over the elephant & the high wire artist crashes to earth.
Terry
Title: Re: RussiaGate And The Media: Examples of Good AND Bad Journalism
Post by: litesong on May 18, 2018, 01:12:21 AM
Go placidly amid the noise and haste... and remember what peace there may be in silence.
Authoritarians, Kings, & dictators always tell the people they suppress to have such attitudes. Remember: Speaking up leads to health problems.
Title: Re: RussiaGate And The Media: Examples of Good AND Bad Journalism
Post by: Rob Dekker on May 18, 2018, 05:16:52 AM
A problem we're also seeing in the ASIF microcosmos:

Quote
Dems Give Up on Trying to Get Cable News to Care About Anything but Russia

The party wants to talk health care. They really do. But they can’t get cable bookers or programmers to care.
...

Very bad journalism, exactly as TPTB want it to be.

I think this article may be a bit dated.
Russia focus seems to be waring out here in the US.

Lately I've noticed that for MSM foreign news, Iran, North Korea and Israel are definitely beating Russia.

Maybe Russia should do something shocking again.

Unrelated, I have a hunch that MH370 will be found in the next week or two. If so, I have a story to tell.
Title: Re: RussiaGate And The Media: Examples of Good AND Bad Journalism
Post by: SteveMDFP on May 18, 2018, 03:20:45 PM
A Better Deal!
Visions of government health care, higher wages, workers rights, but I never heard of it, and I doubt that many of the voters have either.

I've cited the "Better Deal" repeatedly in other threads, often in response to moans about "the Democratic Party doesn't stand for anything."

People confuse what's in the press about political matters as a reflection of what is happening politically.  There's a massive set of differences.  There's a huge amount of crappy journalism about.  Reality is often not reflected well in it. 

And no, the crappiness of journalism is not a CIA-engineering thing (though they have and probably do have some selective influence).  It's a consequence of free-market capitalism on the press.  Any half-wit can create "news" now.  Advertising revenue is diluted, even for the major press.  All budgets to support journalism are drastically falling.  Without the dedicated labor needed, and with requirements for volumes of attention-grabbing headlines, quality across the journalistic spectrum falls into the toilet.

I see no straightforward solutions to this democracy-killing trend.
Title: Re: RussiaGate And The Media: Examples of Good AND Bad Journalism
Post by: Niall Dollard on May 18, 2018, 06:45:40 PM
MSM Misinformation: Comparing the Wikipedia Page of the White Helmet Terrorists with the Actual Images From Their Own Facebook Accounts

https://clarityofsignal.com/2018/05/17/msm-misinformation-comparing-the-wikipedia-page-of-the-white-helmet-terrorists-with-the-actual-images-from-their-own-facebook-accounts/

There is a lot of information and images on this page clearly connecting white helmets with terrorists such as Al Nusra.

This is not being reflected on the white helmets wiki page.

Alas, the Wikipedia controversy related to the White Helmets grows even larger due to this manipulation against those that dare to expose the White Helmets as terrorists, and particularly so now that Jimmy Wales the founder of Wikipedia has chimed in and done nothing to stop the lies and smears.

Title: Re: RussiaGate And The Media: Examples of Good AND Bad Journalism
Post by: Rob Dekker on May 19, 2018, 05:44:12 AM
MSM Misinformation: Comparing the Wikipedia Page of the White Helmet Terrorists with the Actual Images From Their Own Facebook Accounts

https://clarityofsignal.com/2018/05/17/msm-misinformation-comparing-the-wikipedia-page-of-the-white-helmet-terrorists-with-the-actual-images-from-their-own-facebook-accounts/

There is a lot of information and images on this page clearly connecting white helmets with terrorists such as Al Nusra.

There is a lot of smearing against the White Helmets going on there, but nothing concrete.
This "blame the White Helmets" appears to be very popular amongst Assad-lovers, but has no basis in fact. Here is a fact-check by snopes :
https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/syrian-rescue-organization-the-white-helmets-are-terrorists/

Quote
This is not being reflected on the white helmets wiki page.

Because it is baseless smearing a first-responders organization that has saved over 100,000 lives in Syria. Smearing performed by some pro-Assad lovers that can't get their facts straight, and have to rely on lies and fake news to make their point against the White Helmets :
https://www.bellingcat.com/news/mena/2018/04/13/doumafakenews/

Quote
Alas, the Wikipedia controversy related to the White Helmets grows even larger due to this manipulation against those that dare to expose the White Helmets as terrorists, and particularly so now that Jimmy Wales the founder of Wikipedia has chimed in and done nothing to stop the lies and smears.

Ohohoh. Now you are objecting to the smearers being smeared ?

I'm glad Jimmy Wales has his ducks in a row, and as he said about the complaints about the White Helmets : "those complaints are so wrong" and "show me some diffs" of where you think the edits where not according to standard wiki rules.
Title: Re: RussiaGate And The Media: Examples of Good AND Bad Journalism
Post by: sidd on May 19, 2018, 06:48:09 PM
So it was Halper. There's no such thing as an ex-spook. This boy has been slimy since 1980.

"a long-time CIA operative with extensive links to the Bush family who was responsible for a dirty and likely illegal spying operation in the 1980 presidential election."

Apparently was setting up Page and Papadoupolos before the investigation began ...

"The professor’s interactions with Trump advisers began a few weeks before the opening of the investigation ... "

https://theintercept.com/2018/05/19/the-fbi-informant-who-monitored-the-trump-campaign-stefan-halper-oversaw-a-cia-spying-operation-in-the-1980-presidential-election/

sidd

Title: Re: RussiaGate And The Media: Examples of Good AND Bad Journalism
Post by: Neven on May 19, 2018, 09:53:17 PM
I see no straightforward solutions to this democracy-killing trend.

Yes, there is. Stop watching mainstream news. Stop protecting it, promoting it and linking to it online. Stop voting for the lesser evil. Make a demand.
Title: Re: RussiaGate And The Media: Examples of Good AND Bad Journalism
Post by: SteveMDFP on May 19, 2018, 10:21:17 PM
I see no straightforward solutions to this democracy-killing trend.

Yes, there is. Stop watching mainstream news. Stop protecting it, promoting it and linking to it online. Stop voting for the lesser evil. Make a demand.

Except the problematic dynamics I've cited don't only affect "mainstream news."  The impoverishment of journalists impairs the quality of alternative news as well.  It all increasingly sucks.  And shading our eyes from poor quality doesn't alter the perverse economics, either.

Really, if one boycotts anything, it should be the major advertisers of the bilge.  Boycott, and tell them and social media about the action and why.

Title: Re: RussiaGate And The Media: Examples of Good AND Bad Journalism
Post by: Martin Gisser on May 19, 2018, 11:38:15 PM
I see no straightforward solutions to this democracy-killing trend.

Yes, there is. Stop watching mainstream news. Stop protecting it, promoting it and linking to it online. Stop voting for the lesser evil. Make a demand.
Watch RT and Jimmy Dore instead? Vote Trump?

But yes, demand. But first, pop the bubble and check the facts. Take to the streets (like the Parkland kids) and judge the media for their reporting from the streets.

Title: Re: RussiaGate And The Media: Examples of Good AND Bad Journalism
Post by: TerryM on May 19, 2018, 11:38:34 PM
There are a multitude of problems with journalism as it exists today.
Some may respond to legislation and regulation - returning to the "Equal time rule" might be an example. Legislation to tighten slander and liable accountability, much as the Brits have might be a step in the right direction. Defamation should be punished.


The other problem that needs to be addressed is remuneration. Foreign Bureaus have been phased out and replaced by flying in a reporter should something important break. Clearly not a substitute for teams that have been on the ground, who know the locals, the players and who have studied the circumstances for decades.
This is cheap, but is it journalism?


I recognize the problems, but offer no solutions.
Terry
Title: Re: RussiaGate And The Media: Examples of Good AND Bad Journalism
Post by: TerryM on May 20, 2018, 02:53:19 AM
So it was Halper. There's no such thing as an ex-spook. This boy has been slimy since 1980.

"a long-time CIA operative with extensive links to the Bush family who was responsible for a dirty and likely illegal spying operation in the 1980 presidential election."

Apparently was setting up Page and Papadoupolos before the investigation began ...

"The professor’s interactions with Trump advisers began a few weeks before the opening of the investigation ... "

https://theintercept.com/2018/05/19/the-fbi-informant-who-monitored-the-trump-campaign-stefan-halper-oversaw-a-cia-spying-operation-in-the-1980-presidential-election/ (https://theintercept.com/2018/05/19/the-fbi-informant-who-monitored-the-trump-campaign-stefan-halper-oversaw-a-cia-spying-operation-in-the-1980-presidential-election/)

sidd
Thanks sidd!


Glenn wrapped up Halpern and delivered him tied with a bow.
Ties to Nixon, Reagan, Bush Senior, Cheney and all those wonderful All American stooges that made up their followers. - even prior experience in manipulating presidential elections!
I've been trying to link Stepan with Pablo, Christopher, & Sergei over in Salisbury with no luck to date. Amazing that his identity should have been held so close to the vest by the players. Why?


From the comments section I learned that none other than our own Gina Haspel was running the CIA's London office in 2016.
What tangled webs are woven when the spiders insist on working in darkest secrecy.
Terry
Title: Re: RussiaGate And The Media: Examples of Good AND Bad Journalism
Post by: Neven on May 20, 2018, 01:19:36 PM
Watch RT and Jimmy Dore instead? Vote Trump?

DemocracyNow! and The Real News Network are two sources I would recommend. Jimmy Dore gets it, like many comedians do (because they are used to taking different perspectives to find humour), but I know he is offputting to some. Some of RT is definitely watchable, but I wouldn't watch it all day. I don't see much of a problem with the stuff people like Chris Hedges, Thom Hartmann, Abby Martin and Jesse Ventura are producing. I don't believe any of these sources would knowingly deceive their viewers, and they all speak to power.

And vote Green Party, never vote for the lesser evil. In the long run the greater evil will cause more resistance and opportunities for meaningful change. The lesser evil just causes the wound to continue to fester, and people are too stupid to see through that.
Title: Re: RussiaGate And The Media: Examples of Good AND Bad Journalism
Post by: Hefaistos on May 20, 2018, 02:58:29 PM
Craig Murray on how certain Wikipedia articles are constantly and systematically manipulated by MSM-related powers, channeled through an industrially active alias called Philip Cross, and how the founder of wikipedia protects  these activities:

"...the purpose of the “Philip Cross” operation is systematically to attack and undermine the reputations of those who are prominent in challenging the dominant corporate and state media narrative. particularly in foreign affairs. “Philip Cross” also systematically seeks to burnish the reputations of mainstream media journalists and other figures who are particularly prominent in pushing neo-con propaganda and in promoting the interests of Israel.  ...the purpose of the “Philip Cross” operation is to make certain that if that reader looks up an anti-war person such as John Pilger, they will conclude they are thoroughly unreliable and untrustworthy, whereas if they look up a right wing MSM journalist, they will conclude they are a paragon of virtue and entirely to be trusted.
...no doubt that Kamm, leader wirter of Murdoch’s Times, is close the the “Philip Cross” operation. Many people believe that Kamm and Cross are the same person, or that Kamm is part of a multiple persona.
...
What is particularly interesting is that “Philip Cross”‘s views happen to be precisely the same political views as those of Jimmy Wales, the founder of Wikipedia. Jimmy Wales has been on twitter the last three days being actively rude and unpleasant to anybody questioning the activities of Philip Cross.
...
My view is that Philip Cross probably is a real person, but that he fronts for a group acting under his name. It is undeniably true, in fact the government has boasted, that both the MOD and GCHQ have “cyber-war” ops aiming to defend the “official” narrative against alternative news media, and that is precisely the purpose of the “Philip Cross” operation on Wikipedia."

https://www.craigmurray.org.uk/archives/2018/05/the-philip-cross-affair/
https://wikipedia.fivefilters.org/
Title: Re: RussiaGate And The Media: Examples of Good AND Bad Journalism
Post by: Buddy on May 20, 2018, 03:34:34 PM
Good journalism is like a good CPA.  They LOOK FOR FACTS from MULTIPLE INDEPENDENT SOURCES.

And they also look at the HISTORY of those sources being accurate or not.  That is why FOX has been such a FARCE over the years.  They DONT look for facts; they don’t use corraborating sources; they don’t use sources with a history of being correct.

When a company hands their financial statements to a CPA firm to produce an audit ... the CPA firm then looks to INDEPENDENT SOURCES to either corraborate or negate the information in the financials.  In other words, a good CPA is SKEPTICAL of EVERYONE, and is continually on a hunt for THE TRUTH .... just as a good journalist is.

If Rudi Giuliani now says “the President can’t be subpoenaed” ... good journalists have dug into what Rudi has said in the past (which just so happens to be the OPPOSITE) of what he is saying now.

Journalism is a hunt for the truth .... plain and simple.
Title: Re: RussiaGate And The Media: Examples of Good AND Bad Journalism
Post by: Martin Gisser on May 20, 2018, 05:29:25 PM
A Simple Litmus Test

In the "Mueller Investigation & Cohen Investigation" thread an avid commenter seriously cited  (https://forum.arctic-sea-ice.net/index.php/topic,2301.msg155028.html#msg155028) the Daily Caller... So this is one of the alternatives to evil "Mainstream Media"?  :'(

For the scientifically literate, there is a simple litmus test if a source might be something to take seriously:
Check the f-ing climate reporting!
The "Daily Howler", as it is known in climate science circles fails it spectacularly. I find it quite concerning that someone frequenting this very forum dares quoting this anti-science propaganda rag.

Quoth https://www.desmogblog.com/michael-bastasch
Quote
[...] The Daily Caller News Foundation (the nonprofit arm of the Daily Caller) has received at least $825,814 in combined funding from Koch-controlled foundations. As reported at Daily KOS, the Daily Caller was one of the main beneficiaries of climate change denial funding through Koch foundations, and “also seems to be the final destination of sorts for the conservative media pipeline.”

The Daily Howler plays an important role in the conservative climate denial bubble:

Quoth https://climatefeedback.org/false-claim-global-warming-natural-propagates-climate-misinformation-echo-chamber/
Quote
[...]

False claim propagation in the climate misinformation echo chamber

Given that the paper’s claims and methods do not stand up to scientists’ scrutiny, how did the media react to it? We have compiled a list of the most influential blog posts and news outlet coverage. With the exception of the article in The Guardian, where scientists detailed the study’s flaws, none of the publications listed below interviewed any scientists with expertise on the subject to hear their assessment of the quality of the new publication—standard practice among professional science journalists.

The diagram below shows that the articles mostly rely heavily on each other—like in an echo chamber—with very few outside sources included in the reporting. A first wave of “reporting” appeared in The Spectator, The Daily Caller, The Daily Wire, and Breitbart, which were then largely copied and pasted in a second wave of posts with larger audiences, including Young Conservatives and Milo Yiannopoulos’ blog.
[...]
(my bold italics)

(https://climatefeedback.org/wp-content/uploads/2017/09/fake-news-climate-propagation-network.png)
Figure – The network of outlets, blogs, and social media profiles who have shared and endorsed the claim of the GeoResJ paper. Dot sizes are proportional to the total number of shares and interactions on social media; arrows represent citations from an article to its source.
Title: Re: RussiaGate And The Media: Examples of Good AND Bad Journalism
Post by: SteveMDFP on May 20, 2018, 06:10:03 PM
A Simple Litmus Test

In the "Mueller Investigation & Cohen Investigation" thread an avid commenter seriously cited  (https://forum.arctic-sea-ice.net/index.php/topic,2301.msg155028.html#msg155028) the Daily Caller... So this is one of the alternatives to evil "Mainstream Media"?  :'(

There is a simple litmus test if a source might be something to take seriously:
Check the f-ing climate reporting!
The "Daily Howler", as it is known in climate science circles fails it spectacularly. I find it quite concerning that someone frequenting this very forum dares quoting this anti-science propaganda rag.

Quoth https://www.desmogblog.com/michael-bastasch
Quote
[...] The Daily Caller News Foundation (the nonprofit arm of the Daily Caller) has received at least $825,814 in combined funding from Koch-controlled foundations. As reported at Daily KOS, the Daily Caller was one of the main beneficiaries of climate change denial funding through Koch foundations, and “also seems to be the final destination of sorts for the conservative media pipeline.”

The Daily Howler plays an important role in the conservative climate denial bubble:

Quoth https://climatefeedback.org/false-claim-global-warming-natural-propagates-climate-misinformation-echo-chamber/
Quote
[...]

False claim propagation in the climate misinformation echo chamber

Given that the paper’s claims and methods do not stand up to scientists’ scrutiny, how did the media react to it? We have compiled a list of the most influential blog posts and news outlet coverage. With the exception of the article in The Guardian, where scientists detailed the study’s flaws, none of the publications listed below interviewed any scientists with expertise on the subject to hear their assessment of the quality of the new publication—standard practice among professional science journalists.

The diagram below shows that the articles mostly rely heavily on each other—like in an echo chamber—with very few outside sources included in the reporting. A first wave of “reporting” appeared in The Spectator, The Daily Caller, The Daily Wire, and Breitbart, which were then largely copied and pasted in a second wave of posts with larger audiences, including Young Conservatives and Milo Yiannopoulos’ blog.
[...]
(my bold italics)

Figure – The network of outlets, blogs, and social media profiles who have shared and endorsed the claim of the GeoResJ paper. Dot sizes are proportional to the total number of shares and interactions on social media; arrows represent citations from an article to its source.

Quite right, the cited example here is, indeed, a methodologically stupid approach.  One wonders how it got through peer review.  From the abstract:
https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S2214242817300426?via%3Dihub (https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S2214242817300426?via%3Dihub)
"By optimizing spectral features of the component sine waves, such as periodicity, amplitude and phase, the original temperature profiles were approximately simulated for the late Holocene period to 1830 CE. The ANN models were then used to generate projections of temperatures through the 20th century. "

Even if they hadn't screwed up their data sets, one underlying stupid assumption is that there was zero human-induced warming prior to 1830.  The other, already cited, is the idea that natural temperature trends can reasonably be accounted for by sine waves, without any need to examine any underlying physics. 

Clearly, any information source that uncritically parrots this kind of "research" cannot be trusted.
Title: Re: RussiaGate And The Media: Examples of Good AND Bad Journalism
Post by: magnamentis on May 20, 2018, 08:01:57 PM
Good journalism is like a good CPA.  They LOOK FOR FACTS from MULTIPLE INDEPENDENT SOURCES.

And they also look at the HISTORY of those sources being accurate or not.  That is why FOX has been such a FARCE over the years.  They DONT look for facts; they don’t use corraborating sources; they don’t use sources with a history of being correct.

When a company hands their financial statements to a CPA firm to produce an audit ... the CPA firm then looks to INDEPENDENT SOURCES to either corraborate or negate the information in the financials.  In other words, a good CPA is SKEPTICAL of EVERYONE, and is continually on a hunt for THE TRUTH .... just as a good journalist is.

If Rudi Giuliani now says “the President can’t be subpoenaed” ... good journalists have dug into what Rudi has said in the past (which just so happens to be the OPPOSITE) of what he is saying now.

Journalism is a hunt for the truth .... plain and simple.

i agree with you, just want to mention that if one sees things this way and tries to point out his quote he/she will be branded as bragging and discredited.

last but not least, yes, history helps, but we all are permanently learning and having done mistakes in the past does not mean that what we do/say today is again wrong. the opposite is more the case IMO, those who REALLY know more than others often made MORE mistakes because they at least did something instead of only sitting in front of a TV or sitting at their "regular table", moaning and throwing around a bunch of "half truth" and "hear say" rubbish.
Title: Re: RussiaGate And The Media: Examples of Good AND Bad Journalism
Post by: Neven on May 20, 2018, 09:10:26 PM
Yes, you have to keep in mind that Daily Caller is heavily biased and has a poor track record in certain areas, but it doesn't hurt to read one article someone is linking to and see if there is something there. To say 'Daily Caller is awful AGW, hence everything they say is untrue' will get you in trouble eventually.

For instance, The Guardian was offering some really bad journalism on the Skirpal case. Should I now discard their excellent Environment articles? The Washington Post is owned by Emperor Bezos. Should I stop reading Chris Mooney's stuff?

The problem with mainstream media isn't that everything coming out of it, is necessarily bad or biased. The problem is that its journalists can speak to power only so far, unless they're willing to put their job on the line. And so people who are interested in the root cause of today's global problems, will naturally turn to alternative media, even if there's an ongoing campaign of labeling everything alternative to establishment narratives as 'conspiracy theory'.
Title: Re: RussiaGate And The Media: Examples of Good AND Bad Journalism
Post by: Martin Gisser on May 20, 2018, 09:54:33 PM
For instance, The Guardian was offering some really bad journalism on the Skirpal case.
I'd like to see that.
Title: Re: RussiaGate And The Media: Examples of Good AND Bad Journalism
Post by: Neven on May 20, 2018, 10:19:45 PM
Just to show that it's silly to dismiss a news source in its entirety based on one aspect or 'litmus test', here's some of the really great stuff that Jimmy Dore is doing to spread awareness and offer a platform for progressive politicians to reach out to voters. Now, if I were living in California, I'd be investing as much free time as I have to help support this fantastic lady:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hAdAFlC-GgQ
Title: Re: RussiaGate And The Media: Examples of Good AND Bad Journalism
Post by: sidd on May 20, 2018, 10:26:06 PM
The daily caller is undoubtedly a rag, but even a blind pig finds an acorn now and then. In this case they broke the Halper story in april. Nobody else would cover it. Reminds be of the Awan case where nobody was following the story except Luke Rosiak at the daily caller. Only when it blew up did the major media begin covering it, and even then not in detail.

sidd

Title: Re: RussiaGate And The Media: Examples of Good AND Bad Journalism
Post by: TerryM on May 20, 2018, 10:40:11 PM
If you ignore every source that doesn't report to your liking on every issue, you'll end up talking to yourself with no outside input.


I have huge problems with Fox News - however they sometimes present first person film clips of people saying things that we should be paying close attention to. The McClain testimony re. arming ISIS is a recent example.
I don't know what Fox's spin on it was, nor do I care. I did watch McCain's lips move, and heard what he said. That I found important.


Should we ignore evidence just because it came from a suspect source?
Terry
Title: Re: RussiaGate And The Media: Examples of Good AND Bad Journalism
Post by: Martin Gisser on May 20, 2018, 11:45:15 PM
The daily caller is undoubtedly a rag, but even a blind pig finds an acorn now and then. In this case they broke the Halper story in april. Nobody else would cover it.
Maybe because the Daily Caller was informed by Page or Papadop or Nunes. The whole story I find unsurprising. Me dunno what all the fuss is about (except the Trump baby is now crying about it), so I just glanced over it. It is known since long that Page and Papadop were under surveillance, and the Halper thing exactly fits the picture.

So, you look for acorns at a tree that is consistently producing poisoned science acorns? Their climate "journalism" isn't just an occasional bad job (which can happen at any outlet from time to time) - it is consistent intentional service to The Powers you always complain about when bashing the mainstream media. Or maybe you like the Koch brothers?

An outlet with such standards of truth can not be taken serious, what ever stuff they tell.
I thought that would be common sense.

---------------
P.S./Edit:

If you ignore every source that doesn't report to your liking on every issue
Here exactly is the problem: Confirmation bias.

Fuck my effing likings! E.g. I don't like the results of climate science. But, being scientifically literate, I have to take the stuff seriously. And I have to dislike those who lie about it - even if I would love those damned lies to be true in a different universe.

Maybe I'm a psychopath, but I like reporting that is trustworthy, what ever the news is.

------------------
P.P.S.: Now offline for some days of gardening, breaking new ground. Fuck the internets.
Title: Re: RussiaGate And The Media: Examples of Good AND Bad Journalism
Post by: Rob Dekker on May 21, 2018, 07:14:09 AM
I see no straightforward solutions to this democracy-killing trend.

Yes, there is. Stop watching mainstream news. Stop protecting it, promoting it and linking to it online. Stop voting for the lesser evil. Make a demand.

Neven, with all due respect, but exactly which networks do you consider "mainstream news". Can you make a list ? And why we should avoid them ? Also, how about "mainstream" newspapers ? Can you make a list there too ? And maybe give some examples of why we should avoid them ?
Title: Re: RussiaGate And The Media: Examples of Good AND Bad Journalism
Post by: Rob Dekker on May 21, 2018, 07:38:23 AM
For instance, The Guardian was offering some really bad journalism on the Skirpal case.

Can you provide a link ? And explain why that was "really bad journalism" ?
Title: Re: RussiaGate And The Media: Examples of Good AND Bad Journalism
Post by: Rob Dekker on May 21, 2018, 08:10:13 AM
Just to show that it's silly to dismiss a news source in its entirety based on one aspect or 'litmus test', here's some of the really great stuff that Jimmy Dore is doing to spread awareness and offer a platform for progressive politicians to reach out to voters. Now, if I were living in California, I'd be investing as much free time as I have to help support this fantastic lady:

The Jimmy Dore show is not funny, not progressive, and heavily biased.

For example, Jimmy Dore is very upset about the 52 people killed in Gaza, and he should be.
But when Assad killed 50+ people in a chemical attack in Douma, Dore went as far as denying it even happened.

He only citing a journalist who interviewed a pro-Assad "doctor" who was not a witness to even the hospital scene, and who did not even visit the crime scene.

It does not do Gayle McLaughlin any good for appearing on his show.

If anything, I would NOT vote for her, exactly because she appeared on Dore's show.
Dore is a biased fraud, who most often shares conspiracy theories with right wingers like Alex Jones.
You need this guy like you need another hole in your body.
And I'm a progressive.

Seriously, Neven, why don't you dump Dore, and go for TYT's instead.
They are at least a lot more level headed than Dore.
Title: Re: RussiaGate And The Media: Examples of Good AND Bad Journalism
Post by: Rob Dekker on May 21, 2018, 09:04:44 AM
Martin doesn't really think that Jimmy Dore does a comedy show does he?

No, it was Neven who said Jimmy Dore was a comedian : "Jimmy Dore gets it, like many comedians do ".

Dore is neither a comedian nor funny.
Title: Re: RussiaGate And The Media: Examples of Good AND Bad Journalism
Post by: Rob Dekker on May 21, 2018, 09:18:42 AM
MSM reports BOTH sides, no matter how unbalanced.
However, with RT, you will only get one side.

Here is an example : the chemical attack on Saraqib, which we know was a chlorine attack by the Syrian air force, with according to OPCW, some suspicious extra chemicals that hint at sarin.
https://www.bellingcat.com/news/mena/2018/05/16/opcw-ffm-report-saraqib-chlorine-attack-tells-us-douma-chemical-attack/

RT reports this :

https://www.rt.com/news/426953-opcw-chlorine-saraqeb-attack/

Note : " “OPCW says chlorine 'likely' used in Syria based on open-source info & samples provided by jihadists.” "

Who are the “jihadists” – as described by RT -- that provided the Organization for the Prohibition of Chemical Weapons with samples for their investigation?

The RT article stated:

Quote
“In fact, the entire OPCW account is based on witness testimonies and material evidence provided by selected NGOs as well as medical records offered by the same questionable sources, including Belgium-based Same Justice/Chemical Violations Documentation Center of Syria (CVDCS), the notorious Syrian Civil Defense (SCD) – better known as White Helmets – and the US-based Syrian American Medical Society (SAMS).”

Ah. So not really "jihadists" but in fact OPCW itself as well as some NGOs :

Quote
In particular, the evidentiary value of samples taken close to the time of the allegation,
supported by photographic and video evidence and in association with witness
testimony, was balanced against the evidentiary value of the FFM visiting the site
some time later to collect its own samples.

https://www.opcw.org/fileadmin/OPCW/S_series/2018/en/s-1626-2018_e_.pdf

Also, RT cites a Mr. Peter Ford, a former British ambassador to Syria, on why those sources are “questionable.”

Ford noted that the White Helmets are a ‘well-known jihadi auxiliary who have assisted in beheadings and who are notorious for making propaganda’, and that SAMS shares ‘a similar reputation’,” RT wrote.

RT did not provide evidence substantiating Ford’s assertion. However, the White Helmets have long been the target of a smear campaign promoted by the Russian and Syrian governments, as well as by conspiracy theorists in the West who typically use Russian sources like RT and Sputnik.

Also, the RT article did not mention that Peter Ford has been the director of a pro-Assad lobbying group since April 2017. That group, the British Syrian Society, was founded by Fawas Akhras, Syrian President Bashar al-Assad’s father-in-law.

So when you read RT, know that you are reading the pro-Assad, pro-Russian story. Only.
Which in this case turns out to be utter propaganda, without any evidence to back up its statements. In other words : lies.
Title: Re: RussiaGate And The Media: Examples of Good AND Bad Journalism
Post by: zizek on May 21, 2018, 03:45:29 PM
Rob thinks that human beings are only capable of being critical of one narrative. If you don't believe in the western narrative, you must believe everything RT says. It's impossible to apply critical thought to more than one narrative.

He also believes open source journalism is to be the most trusted type of journalism. But only if it's bellingcat. Everything else posted on Twitter and Youtube that hasn't been vetted by elliot higins is not to be believed.  Apparently open source means, anything openly discussed by elliot higgins.
Title: Re: RussiaGate And The Media: Examples of Good AND Bad Journalism
Post by: Niall Dollard on May 21, 2018, 09:00:55 PM

I'm glad Jimmy Wales has his ducks in a row, and as he said about the complaints about the White Helmets : "those complaints are so wrong" and "show me some diffs" of where you think the edits where not according to standard wiki rules.

Some info on Jimmy Wales from the Jewish Telegraphic Agency (JTA) :

 (https://www.jta.org/2015/05/18/news-opinion/israel-middle-east/in-tel-aviv-wikipedia-co-founder-jimmy-wales-likes-israel-but-stays-neutral)While Wikipedia strives for objectivity on Israel, Wales is unabashedly pro.

“I’m a strong supporter of Israel, so I don’t listen to those critics,” Wales told JTA.

Wales has been in Israel numerous times and has received the Dan David Prize, an international award of $1 million given yearly at Tel Aviv University. Wales was chosen for spearheading what the prize committee called the “information revolution.”

Only registered Wikipedia editors may edit the “Israel” entry. I wonder how many of those registered editors are Palestinian ?
Title: Re: RussiaGate And The Media: Examples of Good AND Bad Journalism
Post by: sidd on May 21, 2018, 09:22:22 PM
An insigthful interview with the editor of America's Finest News Source on coverage of the Trump presidency:

On the mainstream coverage:

"he’s [Trump] deliberately trying to troll people."

On the drive for traffic: "They [CNN] would put out articles and it would feel like this is the most click-bait article I’ve ever seen. "

"it does seem like people just freak out a lot."

"In a way, it almost feels like the resistance stuff is even more fun to make fun of."

"They are just so self-serious. There’s a lot of times when you disagree, and people say, "You’re a Russian. You’re bought off by the Russians." And it’s like, come on. For people who feel like this is a serious thing and there may be huge repercussions for all this Russia stuff, you’re doing a disservice to what you’re supposedly fighting for by just blindly attacking. "

On suppression of free speech:

"And it kind of lends credence to saying it’s a witch hunt. I’ve seen people literally do a witch hunt on powerless people and attack them. It’s kind of crazy that people are doing that or that they want to immediately take away someone’s First Amendment rights and say you can’t speak, like conservatives who want to speak on college campuses. It makes no sense to me. Let people speak. Don’t make them into martyrs who aren’t allowed to speak and then their message is amplified. They’re going to draw more people if they become proponents of the First Amendment, versus whatever message you disagreed with. It’s a very dangerous situation. "

"The other challenge about this administration is that so many of their policies and things, like for the EPA, they almost feel like satire."

"That’s the story of the 2016 election too. It didn’t come down to policy. It came down to personality quirks and small things — insignificant things that could potentially be a distraction from the real issues and what we should actually be concerned about."

https://www.politico.com/story/2018/05/20/donald-trump-onion-stories-597809

sidd
Title: Re: RussiaGate And The Media: Examples of Good AND Bad Journalism
Post by: sidd on May 22, 2018, 12:26:37 AM
Gonna need to dig a deeper memory hole: Caitlin Johnstone on disappearing news:

"Just don’t think too hard about it or remember too much."

"There are some turds that just won’t flush."

https://medium.com/@caityjohnstone/the-skripal-case-is-being-pushed-down-the-memory-hole-with-libya-and-aleppo-e4d8b93ef6f5

sidd
Title: Re: RussiaGate And The Media: Examples of Good AND Bad Journalism
Post by: Rob Dekker on May 22, 2018, 03:41:08 AM
Ofcom opens three new investigations into Kremlin backed RT over 'impartiality'

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/russia-today-rt-ofcom-investigations-programmes-syria-ukraine-salisbury-skripal-a8361556.html

The broadcasting watchdog has opened three new investigations into a Kremlin backed TV channel over “impartiality” on issues including the wars in Syria and Ukraine.

It brings the number of ongoing Ofcom probes into RT, formerly Russia Today, to 11. 

“Until recently, TV Novosti’s overall compliance record has not been materially out of line with other broadcasters,” an Ofcom spokesperson said at the time.

“However, since the events in Salisbury, we have observed a significant increase in the number of programmes on the RT service that warrant investigation as potential breaches of the Ofcom Broadcasting Code.”

Title: Re: RussiaGate And The Media: Examples of Good AND Bad Journalism
Post by: Rob Dekker on May 22, 2018, 05:42:20 AM
Here's my question: Please name the USA Media Broadcasters who would meet the Ofcom Broadcasting Code standards.

It's easier to answer the question which media broadcasters would NOT meet the Ofcom broadcasting code. That would be your favorite Fox News :

https://www.theguardian.com/media/2017/nov/06/fox-news-shows-broke-uk-tv-impartiality-rules-ofcom-finds

If RT keeps on going with their biased reporting without evidence, they will be next.

Bellingcat is fine. They sustain all their claims with evidence, and have never been proven wrong.
Title: Re: RussiaGate And The Media: Examples of Good AND Bad Journalism
Post by: TerryM on May 22, 2018, 06:20:08 AM

Russia Today will not lose license over coverage of Salisbury attacks ofcom rules.
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2018/05/12/russia-today-will-not-lose-licence-nerve-agent-attack-salisbury/

More attacks on freedom of the press follow, but RT will probably prevail - again.
Terry

Wonder how "Voice of America" would fare?
Terry
Title: Re: RussiaGate And The Media: Examples of Good AND Bad Journalism
Post by: Tunnelforce9 on May 23, 2018, 03:39:48 AM
Bellingcat is fine. They sustain all their claims with evidence, and have never been proven wrong.

About that, read what this Bellingcat insider has to say...

...I must consider Bellingcat to be nothing more than trolls impersonating journalists. Bellingcat appears to be less legitimate than Fox News."

That is coming from the guy who has build Bellingcats fotoanalysis software..
https://www.hackerfactor.com/blog/index.php?/archives/729-All-Mouth,-No-Trousers.html

Title: Re: RussiaGate And The Media: Examples of Good AND Bad Journalism
Post by: sidd on May 23, 2018, 06:28:21 AM
The comments have more links to what once can fake with manipulated images.

sidd
Title: Re: RussiaGate And The Media: Examples of Good AND Bad Journalism
Post by: Rob Dekker on May 23, 2018, 09:39:24 AM
Bellingcat is fine. They sustain all their claims with evidence, and have never been proven wrong.

About that, read what this Bellingcat insider has to say...

...I must consider Bellingcat to be nothing more than trolls impersonating journalists. Bellingcat appears to be less legitimate than Fox News."

That is coming from the guy who has build Bellingcats fotoanalysis software..
https://www.hackerfactor.com/blog/index.php?/archives/729-All-Mouth,-No-Trousers.html

Thanks Tunnelforce. I remember this argument and this guy Krawetz.

Let me start by saying that he is not very clear as to exactly which Bellingcat report he is referring to and exactly which problem he has with their analysis and exactly which of their claims he is contesting and exactly on which grounds.

So hang in there, I'm going to try to deduce all of that, and then see what's left over of his argument :

He starts with "Last year, a group called 'Bellingcat' came out with a report about MH17... ". Yeah. Bellingcat came out with dozens of reports about MH17. Which one ?
He has a link in this statement : "However, as I pointed out in my blog entry, they used it wrong.". Follow the link and you get to this blog from June 8, 2015 :
https://www.hackerfactor.com/blog/index.php?/archives/676-Continuing-Education.html

where he states "A few days ago, a group called "Bellingcat" published a report where they tried to do some digital photo forensics.". Still no link, but I think he refers to this Bellingcat post :

https://www.bellingcat.com/news/uk-and-europe/2015/05/31/mh17-forensic-analysis-of-satellite-images-released-by-the-russian-ministry-of-defence/
which refers to this detailed report :
https://www.bellingcat.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/05/Forensic_analysis_of_satellite_images_EN.pdf

This is a report where Bellingcat analyzed the pictures that the Russian Ministry of Defense presented in their July 21, 2014 press conference.

His complaint seems to be the ELA analysis that Bellingcat ran on one picture (picture 4), the one with the clouds in there.

Quote
Using ELA, we cannot determine the authenticity of this picture: we cannot tell if it is real, and we cannot tell if it is fake. We can only conclude that this is a low quality picture and that the black text on white annotations were added last. If there was a higher quality version of this picture (without the annotations), then we would have a better chance at detecting any potential alterations.

It is curious why he concludes that, since his own tool FotoForensics clearly shows a difference in error levels between the C and D regions, as Bellingcat points out (on page 11) :

Quote
The difference in the error levels between areas D and C cannot be explained by the image’s
content. While error level differences may be caused by blurry image content, the clouds on
the right side are sharply defined structures, so the error levels should not exhibit any
significant deviations from the central part of the image in this field.

On page 11, Bellingcat also gives an example of a different satellite picture, with a similar cloud structure, where ELA shows consistent error levels across the picture, contrary to C and D area differences in the MoD picture.
Bellingcat logically concludes :
Quote
Therefore, it is highly likely that the cloud in Picture 4 is not part of the original image and was added later.

Now, even if you discard all that, and go with this guy's assessment that Bellingcat should not conclude this because the picture is too low quality, you have to know that any alleged alterations on picture 4 are not important at all. The important part about picture 4 is that is was mis-dated by the MoD, which was determined by comparing the satellite image to WorldView satellite images, NOT by ELA. On page 17 :
Quote
Picture 4 was taken between 1 June 2014 and 18 June 2014.
Which proves that the Russian Ministry of Defense lied about the date this picture was taken.
And that was determined without ELA, by just comparing the MoD image to WorldView images.

And that was just ONE picture from the Bellingcat report.

A more important one is picture 5, taken south of Zaroschinskoe, where ELA analysis suggests that the MoD edited 2 BUK vehicles into the satellite image.

Either way, there has been some criticism of using ELA for photo forensics.
That's why Bellingcat contacted the James Martin Center for Non-Proliferation Studies at the Middlebury Institute of International Studies at Monterey, for an independent analysis of the MoD pictures. Here is their report :
http://www.armscontrolwonk.com/archive/1201635/mh17-anniversary/

This report uses a different method than ELA, and still came to the same conclusions as Bellingcat did using FotoForensics. For picture 4 specifically, they conclude :

Quote
The same three regions in the ELA analysis conducted by Bellingcat are evident across multiple filters in Tungstène that show differences in quantization, compression, and noise. In an unaltered image, the central region of the image is unlikely to appear starkly different from the clouds. The cloud on the left side of the image is almost certainly digitally altered or added; the cloud on the right is more than likely altered.

and regarding picture 5 :

Quote
Again, we know the labels have been added and, according to the Russian Ministry of Defense, the field has also been blurred to hide the resolution of the satellite.

But the image shows other signs of manipulation that call into question its integrity. These manipulations include signs that the two Buk launchers do not match the underlying image, suggesting that they have been enhanced or added digitally from another image. Two filters show obvious signs of tampering – artifacts left by software such as Photoshop.

again confirming Bellingcat's analysis.

Now, once again, regarding Krawetz objections to picture 4 alterations are not so important. They don't even show up in Bellingcat's conclusions :
https://www.bellingcat.com/news/uk-and-europe/2015/05/31/mh17-forensic-analysis-of-satellite-images-released-by-the-russian-ministry-of-defence/

As far as this guy Krawetz is concerned, it looks like his ego was hurt when Bellingcat decided to use his open-access tool rather than ask for his 'expert' opinion, so he could feel important.

Well, sorry Krawetz, but welcome to the age of open-source journalism, where we can all check the evidence and don't have to solely rely on self-proclaimed experts like you any more.
Title: Re: RussiaGate And The Media: Examples of Good AND Bad Journalism
Post by: Rob Dekker on May 23, 2018, 10:34:27 AM
The more important conclusion from this Bellingcat report does not rely on ELA or any other photo forensic analysis method at all.

It is the conclusion that the Russian Ministry of Defense lied about the date that their pictures were taken.

For example, picture 3, where you can simply compare the image from the MoD with images from WorldView at different dates :

(https://017qndpynh-flywheel.netdna-ssl.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/05/MoD-1.jpg)

Which suggests picture 3 was taken between May 30 and July 2, and definitively NOT on July 17, as the Russian MoD stated.

For that conclusion, we don't need any ELA analysis or any other photoforensic algorithm.
Just GoogleEarth and the 'history' feature will suffice, in a clear win for open-source journalism.
Title: Re: RussiaGate And The Media: Examples of Good AND Bad Journalism
Post by: Buddy on May 23, 2018, 02:36:12 PM
Lesley Stahl: Trump admitted mission to "discredit" press

I know.....SHOCKING NEWS.  But it is nice to have someone on record showing that Donnie is doing just that.  It's all been part of his "con" from the get go.

https://www.cbsnews.com/video/lesley-stahl-60-minutes-president-trump-press/
Title: Re: RussiaGate And The Media: Examples of Good AND Bad Journalism
Post by: Tunnelforce9 on May 24, 2018, 03:56:46 AM
They will write lots of books on this time-period in 100 years, if we survive..
Title: Re: RussiaGate And The Media: Examples of Good AND Bad Journalism
Post by: Rob Dekker on May 24, 2018, 04:52:05 AM
Rob Dekker, you talk too much and you say too little.

Yeah. Sorry. I thought some people actually wanted to investigate the claims and the evidence.

But let me summarize it for you :

(1) The Bellingcat analysis using ELA that suggested that the Russian Ministry of Defense digitally altered several of the pictures they showed in their 21st of July, 2014 press conference was independently confirmed by the James Martin Center for Non-Proliferation Studies at the Middlebury Institute of International Studies at Monterey, using a different method :
http://www.armscontrolwonk.com/archive/1201635/mh17-anniversary/

(2) The Bellingcat analysis in the same report proved that the Russian Ministry of Defense lied about the dates that some of the other pictures in the press conference did not require ELA. Just GoogleEarth and the 'history' feature.

Either way, the criticism by Krawetz is unfounded, and is based on his opinion, not the facts.

Is that better ?
Title: Re: RussiaGate And The Media: Examples of Good AND Bad Journalism
Post by: Rob Dekker on May 24, 2018, 05:12:42 AM
Talking about reporting about MH17, this is a big week :

This Thursday the MH17 JIT will give a press conference. Not sure if they will reveal much about the ongoing criminal investigation.
http://www.whathappenedtoflightmh17.com/mh17-joint-investigation-team-requests-the-public-for-help-in-the-investigation/

And Friday, Bellingcat will present their latest findings in the MH17 case, also in a press conference :
https://mailchi.mp/bellingcat/major-new-bellingcat-and-the-insider-mh17-investigation-may-25-2018-press-conference-in-the-hague?e=f195af6fb0

Remember that Bellingcat was instrumental in finding out early on that the BUK that shot down MH17 originated from the 53rd BUK brigade in Kursk, Russia and returned to Russia the day after.
That was 2 years before the JIT officially confirmed that the BUK came from Russia and was returned to Russia.

I am really curious what new findings Bellingcat will present Friday. All we know is that it is big, and that it required many, many months of work.
Title: Re: RussiaGate And The Media: Examples of Good AND Bad Journalism
Post by: Martin Gisser on May 24, 2018, 12:01:25 PM
... And that's why Bellingcat bashers are Russian assets (for all practical purposes). It's almost as good a litmus test as my climate science test.
Title: Re: RussiaGate And The Media: Examples of Good AND Bad Journalism
Post by: Buddy on May 24, 2018, 08:24:04 PM
I've noted several times how HORRIBLE the reporting is on FOX.  It is truly abysmal.  And I'll note a few things in the coming week about my pal Sean Hannity and FOX.... they are really "ramping it up" at gestapo headquarters at FOX.

But it is important to note that when you are HORRIBLE ..... whether it is FOX News OR Donald Trump..... you will attract HORRIBLE PEOPLE. 

For those of you that are sports nuts like me, you may have seen Brit McHenry when she was on ESPN.  Well ..... ESPN let ole' Brit go, and she found her way to FOX (she had other "issues" at ESPN).  And in true FOX form ..... she didn't like it when Chris Long decided to donate a years salary to charity.

HOW DARE HE DO SOMETHING NICE LIKE THAT

Of course..... Chris Long ripped the new NFL rules regarding the fining of players for not standing during the national anthem.  Good ole Brit McHenry already knows the FOX playbook:

1)  Wear short skirts
2)  Don't praise anyone for doing something really nice for society
3)  Make sure you play the FAKE PATRIOT CARD at every opportunity and support anything King Donnie likes.

http://www.msn.com/en-us/sports/nfl/foxs-britt-mchenry-rips-chris-long-for-donating-to-charity/ar-AAxKYkE?li=BBnb7Kz&ocid=iehp

Full Disclosure:  Chris Long is a "Duck" .....
Title: Re: RussiaGate And The Media: Examples of Good AND Bad Journalism
Post by: Rob Dekker on May 25, 2018, 05:29:02 AM
MH17 is very close to my heart, so today was a big day, with the MH17 JIT giving an update on the criminal investigation. And what an update it was :

NPR did the most accurate report :
https://www.npr.org/sections/thetwo-way/2018/05/24/613979423/investigators-say-missile-that-downed-mh17-came-from-russian-military

Quote
The missile "originated" from Russia's 53rd anti-aircraft missile brigade from the city of Kursk in western Russia, Paulissen said — a "part of the Russian armed forces."

This is very important, since now the Russian state is officially determined to be complicit in this atrocity, which has significant legal implications under international law. The Dutch Minister of Foreign Affairs cut short his trip to discuss which political and legal steps should now be taken.

Incidentally, Bellingcat already identified the BUK that shot down MH17 as originating from the 53rd brigade back in September 2014, less than 2 months after the plane was shot down :
https://www.bellingcat.com/news/uk-and-europe/2014/09/08/images-show-the-buk-that-downed-flight-mh17-inside-russia-controlled-by-russian-troops/
with a much more detailed report in 2016. NPR writes :

Quote
The investigators' findings support earlier conclusions from the U.K. "citizen investigative journalist" group Bellingcat, which said more than two years ago that photographs from the day the plane was shot down linked the Buk missile to Russia's 53rd brigade in Kursk, as NPR's Corey Flintoff wrote at the time.

These guys at Bellingcat just keep on being right, and keeps on being a royal pain in the butt for Putin apologists and other Russian trolls.

To top it off, Bellingcat has their own BIG announcement about MH17 in their own press conference (their first) tomorrow. I'm very curious what they found, but it promises to be a bombshell.
Title: Re: RussiaGate And The Media: Examples of Good AND Bad Journalism
Post by: Rob Dekker on May 25, 2018, 07:48:22 AM
It was BUK 332 not 312 :
https://www.bellingcat.com/news/uk-and-europe/2016/05/03/the_lost_digit/

And no matter what you believe, the JIT believes there is enough evidence to prosecute.
Title: Re: RussiaGate And The Media: Examples of Good AND Bad Journalism
Post by: Rob Dekker on May 25, 2018, 10:17:38 AM
I heard Mr Higgins being interviewed live on a radio program today. He didn't paint the coming press conference in that light. He did say that from what he had been told by the JIT investigators during the previous few days they have no evidence at all of any Russia state or Putin involvement in this matter.

Do your have a reference to that interview ?

Because that statement (in bold) is not something anyone would state, especially not the JIT. And especially not since the JIT showed that the 53rd brigade (and thus the Russian State and Putin)  were in control of the weapon, and are thus at the very least complicit in this crime.

Legally speaking that makes a world of difference, and implies all kind of responsibilities under international law. The Dutch government will convene tomorrow to discuss which legal and political steps can be taken as a result of these findings.

Now let's see what Bellingcat's new findings are..
Title: Re: RussiaGate And The Media: Examples of Good AND Bad Journalism
Post by: Rob Dekker on May 26, 2018, 05:24:53 AM
Quote
I heard Mr Higgins being interviewed live on a radio program today. He didn't paint the coming press conference in that light. He did say that from what he had been told by the JIT investigators during the previous few days they have no evidence at all of any Russia state or Putin involvement in this matter.

Do your have a reference to that interview ?
Yes. Wasting your time asking me for an url. Ask Higgins he'd know.

I call BS on that. You have nothing. You made up that statement all by yourself.

You know why I know you are making this up ?

Because as a result of the JIT findings, that the 53rd brigade provided the BUK that shot down MH17, and thus that the Russian state was involved, the Netherlands and Australia just declared Russia to be liable for the downing of MH17 :

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-44252150

Just as shown in your denial of the Douma chemical attack, you are a bad lier, ASILurker.
Shame on you.
Title: Re: RussiaGate And The Media: Examples of Good AND Bad Journalism
Post by: Rob Dekker on May 26, 2018, 05:48:55 AM
Back to the real world, the Bellingcat findings published yesterday provide an example of excellent investigative journalism :

https://www.bellingcat.com/news/uk-and-europe/2018/05/25/mh17-russian-gru-commander-orion-identified-oleg-ivannikov/

Not only does this show that in Eastern Ukraine, the Russian GRU was in charge of all military operations, (contrary to Russia's denial of involvement) but specifically also that the BUK that shot down MH17 entered Ukraine under GRU control.

Just think about that for a moment about these Bellingcat finding :
The BUK that shot down MH17 appears to have been under Russian Military control at all times. That makes it very unlikely that some rogue "separatist" was responsible for downing MH17 in an "accident".

The Russian Military knows what it is shooting at...
Title: Re: RussiaGate And The Media: Examples of Good AND Bad Journalism
Post by: Neven on May 28, 2018, 10:28:01 AM
Here's a nice one from one representative of establishment media:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZCQJm1B29p8
Title: Re: RussiaGate And The Media: Examples of Good AND Bad Journalism
Post by: SteveMDFP on May 28, 2018, 05:09:27 PM
Here's a nice one from one representative of establishment media:
\

Well, yes, that former editor of Time pretty plainly deserves an arsehole of the year award.
But overall, this video is crappy journalism.  Dore uses a handful of statements from a *former* editor to get on a soapbox and deliver a stream of poorly-supported, highly dogmatic, unbalanced and essentially unthoughtful monologue, with a hallelujah chorus on hand to cheer him on.

This isn't joournalism, it's crap.
Title: Re: RussiaGate And The Media: Examples of Good AND Bad Journalism
Post by: Neven on May 28, 2018, 05:29:22 PM
It's an opinion. You can agree or disagree.
Title: Re: RussiaGate And The Media: Examples of Good AND Bad Journalism
Post by: SteveMDFP on May 28, 2018, 05:46:38 PM
It's an opinion. You can agree or disagree.

Well, yes.  Ultimately what constitutes good or bad journalism boils down to an opinion.  But there are opinions based on observations, analysis, and thought, and there are thoughtless opinions.
I cited why I thought it was a piece of crap journalism.  Anything of substance to say about the basis of the opinion stated?
Title: Re: RussiaGate And The Media: Examples of Good AND Bad Journalism
Post by: sidd on May 28, 2018, 10:24:05 PM
Thanks Neven. The ignored question from the audience on the effects of US propaganda on the rest of the world, was quite telling. The non response from the corporate propagandist is even more telling, and exposes the navel gazing narcissism of organizations like the Council on Foreign Relations.

sidd
Title: Re: RussiaGate And The Media: Examples of Good AND Bad Journalism
Post by: Buddy on May 28, 2018, 10:51:19 PM
Here's a good discussion of what JOURNALISM is.

https://www.robertniles.com/journalism/

It is a 2 page straightforward discussion of what journalism is.  Now....this was prepared for people with more intelligence and experience than Donnie .... but I think it serves a very good purpose of stating things CLEARLY and SUSINCTLY.


Quote
Here are the keys to writing good journalism:

•Get the facts. All the facts you can.
•Tell your readers where you got every bit of information you put in your story.
•Be honest about what you do not know.
•Don't try to write fancy. Keep it clear.

https://www.robertniles.com/journalism/
Title: Re: RussiaGate And The Media: Examples of Good AND Bad Journalism
Post by: Neven on May 28, 2018, 11:44:20 PM
•Don't write negative articles about Jeff Bezos or Amazon.
Title: Re: RussiaGate And The Media: Examples of Good AND Bad Journalism
Post by: Buddy on May 29, 2018, 12:17:25 AM
Maybe I have been living under a rock.  I did not know that Jeff wrote any articles about RussiaGate.  Nor did I know that Amazon had been writing articles or covering RussiaGate.  Does The Washington Post realize that Amazon is honing in on their business? Who knew?🤷‍♀️
Title: Re: RussiaGate And The Media: Examples of Good AND Bad Journalism
Post by: Rob Dekker on May 29, 2018, 07:14:04 AM
•Don't write negative articles about Jeff Bezos or Amazon.

That sounds like a really narrow-minded opinion about journalism.
Would you care to elaborate ?
Title: Re: RussiaGate And The Media: Examples of Good AND Bad Journalism
Post by: Rob Dekker on May 29, 2018, 08:42:17 AM
On social media, lies spread faster—and further—than the truth

How One Doctor’s False Claim Was Used To Erase Atrocities In Syria

https://arcdigital.media/how-one-doctors-false-claim-was-used-to-erase-atrocities-in-syria-d76459ffa4e2

Quote
Claiming to be a cardiologist, Twitter user @Thomas_Binder posted a tweet in the aftermath of the chemical attack in Syria last month accusing medical workers of faking a photo in which victims of the attack were pictured receiving life-saving care. Binder later admitted that the information in his tweet was wrong, but by the time he did so, the false claim had already been retweeted over ten thousand times and used to propagate a smear campaign against the volunteer rescue group known as the White Helmets.
Title: Re: RussiaGate And The Media: Examples of Good AND Bad Journalism
Post by: Zeug Gezeugt on June 04, 2018, 02:00:47 PM
Back to the real world, the Bellingcat findings published yesterday provide an example of excellent investigative journalism

Hi Rob,

that would be your version of a 'real world' I take it? One in which 'open source' citizen investigations comprised of cobbled together stories based on social media replace actual professional investigative journalism?

The Belingcat video evidence is debatable, specifically with respect to time stamps, and won't be sufficient for anything other than a kangaroo court via corporate media. Which is probably why the Australian Fed Police rep asked for any further witnesses as they do need some actual evidence.

Please note that Belingcat's repeated use of terms like "very high certainty" - "beyond any doubt" - "no plausible reason to doubt" - do not actually constitute court ready evidence. That and the fact they're a British based propaganda outfit and part of the ongoing propaganda war against Russia would tend to suggest they're the opposite of actual professional investigative journalism.

This recent MH17 story had a rather fast turnaround here in Aus concentrating on the Dutch and Australian anti-Russian conclusions minus the Malaysian objections, and with any reference to Belingcat buried further down or erased altogether, mainly because Belingcat rings too many BS alarm bells amongst the Aus populace. 

It's embarrassing to have my idiot Tory government bunch of clowns weigh in with such an obvious propaganda attack based on Belingcat(!) social media blogging rather than actual evidence. You'd think our intelligence elites could come up with something a bit more ... intelligent!

It's also a nasty way to politicize the deaths of Australian citizens. Hopefully if it ever does go to an actual court with real evidence we'll find out something approximating the truth although I doubt it.

My money, from the start, has always been on Avakov's Interior Ministry troops wot done it, as Cui Bono would indicate a false flag to blame on the RF with propaganda outcomes like the Dutch/Australian evidence free tag team report just released.

Why else would you deliberately shoot down a high altitude, slow-moving passenger jet barely minutes before it crosses into Russian airspace?
Title: Re: RussiaGate And The Media: Examples of Good AND Bad Journalism
Post by: Rob Dekker on June 05, 2018, 08:58:33 AM
I think it was Rob in the recent past casting negative aspersions on the credibility of both Robert Fisk and Seymour Hersh as journalists because they presented alternative evidence and views than Bellingcat's fictions about Syria.

I don't know about Seymour Hersh, but the report by Robert Fisk was terrible. All he did was interview a self-proclaimed "doctor" who was NOT present at the time. Fisk never visited the crime scene, nor did he interview anyone related to the victims.
Fisk produced an abysmal piece of journalism.

The only thing that is worse than that is your denial of the chemical attack on Douma.

Bellingcat produced a reasoned, and evidence based count of the attack here :
https://www.bellingcat.com/news/mena/2018/04/11/open-source-survey-alleged-chemical-attacks-douma-7th-april-2018/
which nobody has been able to debunk.
Which is a good indication they are reporting the truth.

Quote
One of the most telling things to me about MH17 is not what has been said by the US Government and Intel/Mil chiefs but instead they have not said. I mention this mode of operating on another thread today.

The second most telling thing is the distinct lack of evidence provided by the U.S. Intel/Mil to the investigators or to the public that is in their possession about movements and Coms traffic in eastern Ukraine in the days and weeks leading up to and following the loss of MH17.
You Putin lovers all want the US military to make public all they know about MH17. 
And you all fail to recognize that they already did provide valuable information.

They provided the launch location and even the flight path of the missile :

(https://017qndpynh-flywheel.netdna-ssl.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/01/0.jpg)

Which, if you analyze the details, is consistent with the launch location south of Snizhne as first identified by ukraine@war, and later confirmed by the Dutch Safety Board :
https://www.bellingcat.com/news/uk-and-europe/2015/01/27/is-this-the-launch-site-of-the-missile-that-shot-down-flight-mh17/
 
What else do you want the US to provide ?

Quote
Unfortunately it's not 1986 anymore. The world has changed significantly since then. And not in a good way.

Fortunately it is not 1986 any more. We now have internet and people uploading videos and pictures of stuff they find interesting, and that creates what we call "open-source" journalism, where all the evidence is publicly available and verifiable, which resulted in enough evidence to conclude that MH17 was shot down by a BUK from the 53rd brigade in Kursk, Russia.
Title: Re: RussiaGate And The Media: Examples of Good AND Bad Journalism
Post by: Rob Dekker on June 05, 2018, 09:20:12 AM
Or do you prefer this picture from Russian TV1, which they claim suggests is a US satellite picture that proves that a Ukrainian fighter plane shot down MH17 :

(https://www.metabunk.org/data/MetaMirrorCache/b2a86bc14e47ce53717ff17410da49fb._.jpg)

This was really presented by Russia TV1, I'm not kidding :
https://www.1tv.ru/news/2014-11-14/29049-za_mgnoveniya_do_krusheniya_boinga_pod_donetskom_unikalnyy_kadr_v_analiticheskoy_programme_odnako

But if you look closer, you will see that the plane is larger than Donetsk airport, and the fighter jet is larger than a plowing field.

Actually, if we zoom in a bit, we can see Putin behind the controls  ;):

(https://www.metabunk.org/data/MetaMirrorCache/81682f26f1e18d1069c6c7f8c84d936c.jpg)
Title: Re: RussiaGate And The Media: Examples of Good AND Bad Journalism
Post by: Neven on June 05, 2018, 10:10:37 PM
As much as I am interested in world politics and US politics in particular, I'm going to unsubscribe/unnotify from these discussions, so I can fully focus on the Arctic. I've learned a lot from these discussions, so my thanks go out to everyone participating in them.
Title: Re: RussiaGate And The Media: Examples of Good AND Bad Journalism
Post by: Neven on June 14, 2018, 11:39:06 PM
Bad journalism (Maddow is just as crazy as Hannity now):

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jEJAouV9Dm8

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HH-vUgLGo20
Title: Re: RussiaGate And The Media: Examples of Good AND Bad Journalism
Post by: Martin Gisser on June 15, 2018, 01:09:22 AM
Bad journalism (Maddow is just as crazy as Hannity now)
Yes, bad journalism. But in a different sense: Content free Rachel Maddow bashing. That's no journalism at all.

These poor little ones on the wannabe progressive media side are simply envious of Rachel's success and analytic prowess. What do they have to offer? Nothing comparable! Kyle is an angry dwarf. Jimmy can't even tell the difference between Uranium and Plutonium, and is dripping with wannabe progressive college student arrogance. -- Yes, Rachel might have overdone the point about Russia. But there's another thing she told. And comparing Trump's "diplomacy" with Obama's is ridiculous. 'Nuff neurons wasted.
Title: Re: RussiaGate And The Media: Examples of Good AND Bad Journalism
Post by: Buddy on June 15, 2018, 01:58:03 AM
Per Neven...
Quote
Bad journalism (Maddow is just as crazy as Hannity now):

Yes.... Maddow must be just as crazy as Hannity now.  Let's take a look at that insightful post:

1)  Global warming

Hannity has lied about global warming for about 20 years now.  Maddow thinks global warming is happening, man is causing it, and man needs to do something about it.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JBqiWBhJ7kQ  Hannity from 2016

2)  Gun Control

Hannity is a big backer of the NRA, and downplays gun control every chance he gets.  Maddow wants more gun control:  Regulations assault rifles, size of gun magazine, etc.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F3gkqTWaRqw

3)  Mueller Investigation:

Hannity wants to shut the Mueller investigation down NOW.  Maddow wants the Mueller investigation to complete its work.  Considering that everyone on the Trump team has lied about their contacts with Russians ..... that Michael Flynn, Trump's national security advisor has flipped ..... the Paul Manafort has had MULTIPLE contacts with Ukranians and Russians over the years and is financially compromised to at least one of them ..... that the Trump campaign met MULTIPLE TIMES with Russians..... I think it would be IRRESPONSIBLE to not complete the Mueller investigation.

==================================================

And the above was BEFORE I had to endure the beginning of the "The Kyle Kulinski Show".  Kyle didn't waste much time lying....he got right to it:

Talking to people who are your enemies WAS NOT THE ISSUE.  THE ISSUE WAS PRAISING YOUR ENEMY.  Talking is GOOD.  Praising a heartless, murdering dictator..... HEAPING PRAISE on him, is the issue.  Obama DIDN'T do that when he talked with Castro. BIG DIFFERENCE.

And that is all Kulinski talked about.  Did you really listen to it?  Personally, I LIKED the fact that Trump wanted to talk with North Korea.  THAT....is a good idea.  Of course, it is a BAD IDEA to go into ANY TALKS of importance....without preparing, and understanding the history and background.  And since Donnie doesn't like to read....well, you get my drift.

I thought Jimmy Dore was bad.  Kulinski makes him look like a rocket scientist.  Look.... if he (or you) want to bash on Rachel....great....have at it.  But use FACTS.... and what they ACTUALLY SAY. 



 

Title: Re: RussiaGate And The Media: Examples of Good AND Bad Journalism
Post by: Rob Dekker on June 15, 2018, 04:20:03 AM
Bad journalism (Maddow is just as crazy as Hannity now):

I'm not sure why you are saying that, since Hannity at this point has more in common with Dore and Kulinski than he has with Maddow.

Maddow has a point : Trump just not only put dictator Kim Jong Un as equal on the international stage, but also just gave him what he wants : no more US - South Korean military exercises.
And the US received nothing in return, except for a Trump PR stunt.

Look, you can have the opinion that this summit is the start of something good.
But considering that we are dealing with a 70 year old problem, it is more likely that its not.

Smearing somebody (like Maddow) who points out that Trump gave in too soon is not productive.

If anything, supposedly left-wing journalists smearing left-wing journalists like Maddow suggests that the political left in the US is divided more than ever.

Bernie said to "bring people together".
Guys like Dore and Kulinski smearing Maddow is not helping in uniting the left.
And without unity, the political right will prevail.
Title: Re: RussiaGate And The Media: Examples of Good AND Bad Journalism
Post by: sidd on June 15, 2018, 04:55:08 AM
Maddow is a warmonger, as long as Trump moves toward withdrawal. She is a peacemaker for Iran since Trump rattles sabre in that direction. Mate nails it.

sidd
Title: Re: RussiaGate And The Media: Examples of Good AND Bad Journalism
Post by: Martin Gisser on June 15, 2018, 01:26:54 PM
Bad journalism (Maddow is just as crazy as Hannity now):

I'm not sure why you are saying that, since Hannity at this point has more in common with Dore and Kulinski than he has with Maddow.
Now you're insulting Dore and Kulinski :)  Hannity is Trump's Goebbels. Oops, now I insulted Goebbels' intelligence.

---------------
P.S.: Susan linked this somewhere else. Should also be here. It's often the comedians who do the best journalism in the U.S. Lots of Hannity fun.
https://youtu.be/mOVPStnVgvU
Title: Re: RussiaGate And The Media: Examples of Good AND Bad Journalism
Post by: Martin Gisser on June 15, 2018, 03:06:54 PM
Smearing somebody (like Maddow) who points out that Trump gave in too soon is not productive.

If anything, supposedly left-wing journalists smearing left-wing journalists like Maddow suggests that the political left in the US is divided more than ever.

Bernie said to "bring people together".
Guys like Dore and Kulinski smearing Maddow is not helping in uniting the left.
And without unity, the political right will prevail.
Exactly. Squabbling children. Circular firing squad. Playing in the hands of the political right - and then whine and complain. Idiotic and disgusting. When will they ever learn?


Is that enough content to fill the neuron void? :)
Someone should watch TRMS more often. But, boy, she's talking soo fast :)

Last day's TRMS without commercials: http://www.msnbc.com/rachel-maddow-show
Title: Re: RussiaGate And The Media: Examples of Good AND Bad Journalism
Post by: ivica on June 16, 2018, 07:39:04 AM
Not fully off-topic

In Alerts 2017: The Breaking Of The Corporate Media Monopoly, Last Updated on 15 June 2017, By Editor   
http://medialens.org/index.php/alerts/alert-archive/2017/850-the-breaking-of-the-corporate-media-monopoly.html

"We don't need to tolerate a corporate-filtered view of the world. We can inform ourselves and each other, and we can do so with very much more honesty, courage and compassion than any corporate journalist. If there is one message from last week, it's a simple one – dump the corporate media; all of it."

A corporate-filtered view example:
"While employing a handful of compromised fig leaves, the Guardian has ruthlessly smeared anyone who has sought to challenge the status quo: Julian Assange, Russell Brand, Hugo Chavez, Noam Chomsky, Edward Herman, John Pilger, George Galloway and many others. It has also been complicit in the great war crimes of Iraq, Libya and Syria – accepting fake government justifications for war at face value, ignoring expert sources who made a nonsense of the claims, and propagandising hard for the West's supposed 'responsibility to protect' the nations it so obviously seeks to destabilise and exploit."

There are much more to it, in the article.
Title: Re: RussiaGate And The Media: Examples of Good AND Bad Journalism
Post by: Rob Dekker on June 16, 2018, 08:58:50 AM
"While employing a handful of compromised fig leaves, the Guardian has ruthlessly smeared anyone who has sought to challenge the status quo: Julian Assange, Russell Brand, Hugo Chavez, Noam Chomsky, Edward Herman, John Pilger, George Galloway and many others. It has also been complicit in the great war crimes of Iraq, Libya and Syria....

That's quite a statement.

Do you have any examples of where the Guardian has ruthlessly smeared anyone... etc ?
Title: Re: RussiaGate And The Media: Examples of Good AND Bad Journalism
Post by: ivica on June 16, 2018, 10:36:40 AM
Rob Dekker wrote: "Do you have any examples of where the Guardian has ruthlessly smeared anyone... etc ?"

MediaLens might have some? I don't collect that stuff.

Information gathered by own efforts might be more appreciated, we have several search engines (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Web_search_engine) why not use them?
If you try you might run on something like:  1  (http://theguardian.fivefilters.org/?v1),  2  (https://www.thecanary.co/uk/2016/07/12/veteran-guardian-columnist-just-smeared-every-last-corbyn-supporter-staggering-attack/),  3  (https://contraspin.co.nz/every-single-line-of-the-latest-guardian-assange-smear-debunked/),  4  (https://disobedientmedia.com/2018/05/the-guardian-publishes-smear-against-solitarily-confined-journalist-julian-assange/), ...

? (https://forum.arctic-sea-ice.net/index.php/topic,179.msg5054.html#msg5054) Search (https://youtu.be/ynC-tQuoZME?t=5m40s) ;)
Title: Re: RussiaGate And The Media: Examples of Good AND Bad Journalism
Post by: sidd on June 17, 2018, 05:48:00 AM
Trump produced a successful (for him) reality show on TV. Now he is producing the Presidency as a post-reality TV show.

"Trump understands, from an insider’s perspective, what drives TV ratings and what keeps people watching."

Yup. And not just on TV. He's using the net like a pro. He learns quick.

The media is hugely complicit. They don't take the cameras off him for fear of losing ratings. He's got em in a cleft stick.

http://thehill.com/homenews/administration/392578-the-memo-trumps-media-game-puts-press-on-back-foot

sidd



Title: Re: RussiaGate And The Media: Examples of Good AND Bad Journalism
Post by: Rob Dekker on June 19, 2018, 06:51:25 AM
An example of Good Journalism

Glen Ford frames reality quite well and more accurately here too:

Trump campaigned in 2016 for normal relations with Russia, an end to the U.S. regime change offensive, and opposition to so-called “free” trade, thus uniting most of the ruling class against him. It turned out that Trump’s wholly unexpected appeal for peaceful relations with Russia did not deter huge majorities of Republicans from voting for him in the primaries and the general election. The political conclusion was inescapable: If white Republicans were not wedded to the permanent war agenda -- or cared more about maintaining white supremacy at home than funding endless hostilities abroad -- then where was the mass constituency for the bipartisan War Party? If Trump’s “deplorables” weren’t wedded to the War Party, then who was?

and

Trump’s surprise election threw the bulk of the elite, the corporate media, the military-industrial complex, and the spooks of the intelligence agencies, into panic, as they confronted a crisis of legitimacy for the Warfare State. Now firmly aligned with Hillary Clinton and the Democrats, their response was to pre-empt Trump’s threatened rapprochement with Russia with a massive anti-Putin campaign. The elites realized they had to recreate -- on the fly, with no factual basis -- a war fervor that no longer existed among the masses of people, through Russiagate. In the chaotic process, they have further delegitimized virtually every U.S. institution, all the while putting the onus for the damage on the Vladimir Putin.

 
https://blackagendareport.com/chaos-imperial-big-house

(hat tip to sidd)

Interesting. If in the above you replace "Trump" by "Obama" and replace "Republicans" with "Democrats", and "Democrats" by "Republicans", you pretty much get a good overview of the 2008 Obama election, maybe except for the "opposition to free trade" part.

The "reset" with Russia stayed the same. Obama tried that after 2008.
And arguably the "elites" (the rich) stay the same as well.
Title: Re: RussiaGate And The Media: Examples of Good AND Bad Journalism
Post by: Rob Dekker on June 19, 2018, 08:15:35 AM
Assuming you underlined the most surprising facts in this re-write of the story :
Quote
Obama's wholly unexpected appeal for peaceful relations with Russia
That's called the Obama Russia reset. There is even a Wiki page about it :
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russian_reset

Point is, a 'reset' with the relations with Russia was tried before.

It didn't work under Obama, and it doesn't work under Trump because Russia under Putin is not interested in better relationships with the US and the west in general.

Putin wants Russia to be a world power in the eyes of the Russian people. But if the west is a friend, people in Russia will see how other countries do better than Russia, which would be a grave threat to Putin's policies and existence. So he needs to blame the west for the problems in Russia.

So he uses the classic "blame-and-deny" policy that was used by many dictators, and by Hitler specifically.

Since the west tries to be nice with Russia all the time, Putin needs to provoke the west over and over again, for the west to remain a threat to Russia. Therefore actions in Georgia, in Ukraine, annexing Crimea, shooting down MH17, Skripal poisoning, bombing hospitals in Syria, interfering in the US elections, supporting Assad in his use of chemical weapons, threatening nuclear war with the west, and so on and on and on. Anything he can do to provoke a reaction from the west, for which he can then use "plausible deniability" to deny his own actions and blame the west for it.

It works for Putin, and looking at the responses here, he fools many believers.

And regarding your second underlined section :
Quote
Obama's surprise election

Yes. Who would have known that the US would elect a black president...?
And regarding Trump : Who would have known that the US would elect a white bigot, racist billionaire...?
Title: Re: RussiaGate And The Media: Examples of Good AND Bad Journalism
Post by: Hefaistos on June 20, 2018, 06:37:41 AM
Another example of Good Journalism
Selected quotes:

"Russophobia Undermining British Democracy

The result of this intolerance is a sharp contraction in the freedom of Britain’s public space, with those who disagree on British policy towards Russia increasingly afraid to speak out.

Since establishment opinion in Britain conceives of itself as defending liberal democracy from attack by Russia, and since establishment opinion increasingly conflates liberal democracy with its own opinions, it follows that in its conception any challenge to its opinions is an attack on liberal democracy, and must therefore be the work of Russia.

This paranoid view has now become pervasive. No part of the traditional media is free of it. It has gained a strong hold on the BBC and it is fair to say that all the big newspapers subscribe to it. Anyone who does not has no future in British journalism.

This is disturbing in itself, but as with all forms of institutional paranoia, it is also having a damaging effect on the functioning of Britain’s institutions.

...

Britain Becoming Marginalised

If the result of the British establishment’s paranoia about Russia is deeply corrosive within Britain itself, its effect on British foreign policy has been entirely negative.

The result is that major international questions such as the Ukrainian crisis, the Syrian conflict and the gathering crisis in the Middle East caused by the U.S.’s withdrawal from the Iranian nuclear deal – in all of which Russia is centrally involved – are being handled without British involvement.
Where Angela Merkel of Germany and Emmanuel Macron of France talk to Russia and have thereby managed to carve out for themselves important roles in world affairs, Britain’s Theresa May is a bit player.
...
Far from gaining relevance by leading an international crusade against Russia, the British are increasingly finding that no one else is interested and that May’s and the British establishment’s obsession with Russia instead of enhancing Britain’s importance is making Britain increasingly irrelevant.
...

The Price of an Obsession

The British establishment’s obsession with Russia is something of a puzzle.

Britain today is not a geopolitical rival of Russia’s as it was in the nineteenth century and as the U.S. is today. British antagonism to Russia cannot therefore be explained as the product of a geopolitical conflict.

Russia is not a military or political threat to Britain. There is no history of Russia threatening or invading Britain. Russia is not an economic rival, and Russian penetration of the British economy is minimal and vastly exaggerated.

It is sometimes said that there are things about modern Russia that the British find culturally, ideologically or politically distasteful, and that this is the reason for Britain’s intense hostility to Russia. However Britain has no difficulty being best of friends with all sorts of countries such as the Gulf Monarchies or China which are culturally, ideologically and politically far more different from Britain than Russia is. Logically that should make them more distasteful to Britain than Russia is, but it doesn’t seem to do so. In these cases economic interests clearly take precedence over any concerns for human rights.

Ultimately however the precise cause of the British establishment’s obsession with Russia does not actually matter. What does matter is that it is an obsession, which should be recognised as such, and that like all other obsessions is ultimately destructive."

https://consortiumnews.com/2018/06/15/letter-from-britain-an-establishment-blinded-by-russophobia/
Title: Re: RussiaGate And The Media: Examples of Good AND Bad Journalism
Post by: Rob Dekker on June 20, 2018, 09:00:12 AM
That consortiumnews.com opinion piece was written by Alexander Mercouris.

A bit of background check tells a lot about this guy :

https://www.stopfake.org/en/russian-media-columnist-alexander-mercouris-struck-off-over-claim-that-senior-law-lord-had-him-kidnapped/

Another author on Kremlin’s Sputnik International will be A. Mercouris, disbarred for deceiving a client. Now A. Mercouris is a columnist of RT, Voice of Russia and russia-insider.com.
Title: Re: RussiaGate And The Media: Examples of Good AND Bad Journalism
Post by: Hefaistos on June 20, 2018, 11:53:30 AM
That consortiumnews.com opinion piece was written by Alexander Mercouris.

A bit of background check tells a lot about this guy :

https://www.stopfake.org/en/russian-media-columnist-alexander-mercouris-struck-off-over-claim-that-senior-law-lord-had-him-kidnapped/

Another author on Kremlin’s Sputnik International will be A. Mercouris, disbarred for deceiving a client. Now A. Mercouris is a columnist of RT, Voice of Russia and russia-insider.com.

Rob, I know that you love to shoot at the messanger when you don't like the message.
It's the easiest way, you don't need to listen, you don't need to argue, you just shoot.

The personal problems that Mercouris had, that made him do some misdeeds as a barrister, are, however, totally unrelated to his current position as chief editor at The Duran. I think his analysis of russiophobia is excellent, and great journalism.
Title: Re: RussiaGate And The Media: Examples of Good AND Bad Journalism
Post by: Rob Dekker on June 21, 2018, 08:18:28 AM
The personal problems that Mercouris had, that made him do some misdeeds as a barrister, are, however, totally unrelated to his current position as chief editor at The Duran. I think his analysis of russiophobia is excellent, and great journalism.

Hefaistos, the piece by Mercouris is a fact free opinion piece. Why do you say this is "excellent, and great journalism" ? Just because you agree with his opinion ?

Nowhere in this article do I see any mention of the facts : Of Russia's aggression in Georgia, or in Ukraine, or Russia annexing Crimea, or shooting down MH17, or the Skripal poisoning (other than the mention that Skripal deflected to the west), no mentioning of the Russian bombing of hospitals in Syria, nor of the Russian interference in the US elections (and 26 other countries), no mentioning of Russian support for Assad using chemical weapons, nor any mention of Russia threatening nuclear war with the west.

Any of these are examples of increased Russian aggression, which did not go unnoticed in the free world, and Mercouris ignores all of it.

He then simply asserts "russiophobia" without context. This makes his piece a fact-free, biased piece of pro-Russian propaganda, and yes, in that context it is good to check out the author, where we find out, surprise, surprise, that he is a a columnist of RT, Voice of Russia and russia-insider.com.

You could have known, since consortiumnews.com is on the propornot.com list for repeatedly spreading Russian propaganda.
Title: Re: RussiaGate And The Media: Examples of Good AND Bad Journalism
Post by: Susan Anderson on June 21, 2018, 09:55:10 PM
I lost the stomach to read all through all that, but honestly, the Guardian is a warmongering nasty? Hannity is OK?

Just so you know, Trump has a lovefest with Hannity on his TV every night, and the two of them talk regularly.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yD87uewhqOA (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yD87uewhqOA)

[Links below won't work; you can find them and others by searching: "trump's talks to Hannity" for a variety of reports.]

Quote
About 770,000 results (0.68 seconds)
Search Results
Trump talks to Hannity on the phone nearly every night to 'decompress ...
www.nydailynews.com/.../trump-talks-hannity-phone-night-report-article-1.3990081

May 15, 2018 - Fox News host Sean Hannity calls the White House switchboard nearly every night after his show to speak to President Trump, according to a ...
Donald Trump and Sean Hannity's Late Night Calls - NYMag
nymag.com/daily/intelligencer/2018/.../sean-hannity-donald-trump-late-night-calls.ht...

May 13, 2018 - Donald Trump and Sean Hannity like to talk before bedtime. Here's a look at life inside the bunker of Fox News' resident Trumplegänger.
Trump reportedly talks to Sean Hannity most nights before bed ...
www.businessinsider.com/trump-sean-hannity-talk-before-bed-2018-5

May 14, 2018 - President Donald Trump and Fox News host Sean Hannity apparently talk on the phone every night, according to a report from New York ...
Report: President Trump and Sean Hannity talk nearly every weeknight
https://www.usatoday.com/story/...trump...hannity...every-weeknight.../607595002/

I get that some of you hate Rachel Maddow - yes, I said hate, because the rejection of facts and bias are visceral rather than logical. She has her "beat" and her research team and work are as good as it gets. The last few days she's been focusing on the children separated at the border, and I've often heard her on a range of topics. MSNBC is in no way like Fox. Fox is largely fact-free and presents opinion from the right. MSNBC is a serious news organization that fills a hole in reporting on the more progressive end of the scale. They are not warmongers; that is a ridiculous assertion, not based on evidence. It is tempting to think that many people don't like a woman who presents more like a man than a woman, direct and "unfeminine".
Title: Re: RussiaGate And The Media: Examples of Good AND Bad Journalism
Post by: SteveMDFP on June 22, 2018, 03:37:48 AM

I get that some of you hate Rachel Maddow - yes, I said hate, because the rejection of facts and bias are visceral rather than logical. She has her "beat" and her research team and work are as good as it gets. The last few days she's been focusing on the children separated at the border, and I've often heard her on a range of topics. MSNBC is in no way like Fox. Fox is largely fact-free and presents opinion from the right. MSNBC is a serious news organization that fills a hole in reporting on the more progressive end of the scale. They are not warmongers; that is a ridiculous assertion, not based on evidence. It is tempting to think that many people don't like a woman who presents more like a man than a woman, direct and "unfeminine".

Completely agree.  Out of decades of consumption of broadcast journalism, nobody holds a candle to Maddow.  She's highly educated,well-trained, and is rather scrupulous about describing her sources.  She's engaging and enlightening.  Yes, she has a progressive take on events, but she doesn't hide that viewpoint. She routinely invites Republicans and others of differing viewpoint, and treats them fairly, without hesitating  to ask challenging questions.

It would be sane for a conservative to criticize her "liberal bias."  There's  some truth, not in the veracity of what she reports, but by her selection of what stories to report on.  In her shoes, in this  country, in the current environment, I'd feel compelled to do  exactly as she does in this way.

I share your dismay at  the periodic criticism/dismissal of Maddow's work.  My hunch is that such may be partially colored by (unconscious?) misogyny or homophobia.  I think very smart, successful women get more than their share of criticism, on both the Right and Left.  That's unfortunate.  I suspect that such biases may underly the overblown criticism of Pelosi,  Feinstein, and Hillary Clinton, and many others.
Title: Re: RussiaGate And The Media: Examples of Good AND Bad Journalism
Post by: Rob Dekker on June 22, 2018, 05:56:12 AM
Hannity is OK?

Who said he was OK .... no one ..... so who are you talking to besides the "air"?

Calm down cowboy. This has nothing to do with you.
Neven here suggested (without showing any evidence) that "Maddow is just as crazy as Hannity now" :

https://forum.arctic-sea-ice.net/index.php/topic,2272.msg158843.html#msg158843

Neven then posted two videos (by Kulinski and Dore) critical of Rachel Maddow.
But he posted nothing critical of Hannity.

So Susan's question was reasonable, and likely directed at Neven.

[edit]. OK. I take that back (that it has nothing to do with you).
You did your own share of Maddow bashing here :
https://forum.arctic-sea-ice.net/index.php/topic,2272.msg158875.html#msg158875
And not a bad word about Hannity from you either...
Title: Re: RussiaGate And The Media: Examples of Good AND Bad Journalism
Post by: Rob Dekker on June 22, 2018, 06:07:28 AM

I suspect that such biases may underly the overblown criticism of Pelosi,  Feinstein, and Hillary Clinton, and many others.


Oh that's plain silly. Not by men and women or LGBTIQ on the left liberal progressive pro-community side of politics - it isn't. The criticisms are obviously always about what they say what they do and what they VOTE in Congress.

Please show us a good piece of journalism which shows that the voting records of Pelosi,  Feinstein, and Hillary Clinton differ from the left liberal progressive side of politics. Because I'm a left liberal progressive voter and I find their voting record to be excellent.
Title: Re: RussiaGate And The Media: Examples of Good AND Bad Journalism
Post by: Rob Dekker on June 22, 2018, 08:34:27 AM
Everyone has their opinions. Your's are not better by default. I was simply pointing that obvious facts of the world. Plus go do your own research on voting records - I am not your slave.

You have NOTHING, do you, Lurker ?
No evidence against Pelosi,  Feinstein, and Hillary Clinton at all.
You have a big mouth and no beef.
Title: Re: RussiaGate And The Media: Examples of Good AND Bad Journalism
Post by: Rob Dekker on June 22, 2018, 09:07:21 AM
Here is one fact based piece of journalism, relevant to the subject of Russiagate :

https://www.bellingcat.com/news/mena/2018/06/21/know-hexamine-syrias-sarin/

It turns out that in the documented sarin attacks on civilians in Syria (which Russia alternatively denies happened, or blames on the rebels) hexamine is a consistent ingredient. Hexamine is rarely used in the sarin production process, but the Syrian government itself declared that they use hexamine as an acid scavenger.

This puts one more piece of the puzzle in place of the chemical weapons use in the ongoing civil war in Syria, and it links the many documented sarin attacks once again to the Syrian government.
Title: Re: RussiaGate And The Media: Examples of Good AND Bad Journalism
Post by: Susan Anderson on June 22, 2018, 10:19:54 AM
I am reluctant to emphasize the complex subject of attacks on women; I think it may be a factor with a certain kind of woman, and for a lot of people it may be one of a complex variety of "feelings". But it is bound to raise people's hackles and is rarely black and white. As with religion, telling people who they are is bound to misfire; the problem of separating feelings from evaluation of quality needs some diplomacy and putting people's backs up doesn't help.

I was dismayed when I saw Hillary Clinton with Elizabeth Warren because it was evident to me that Hillary simply didn't come across the "footlights" the way Warren did. Though I looked carefully at Hillary's history when I left Bernie (his one-note insistence on what's right - which I don't dispute - are not an action plan and he's still sowing discord amongst good people, though mostly it's the fringe not him), it was hard to warm to her as a public speaker. Unfortunately, money is part of the equation in politics, and is often cited as a marker of evil. The way things are, that is another coded attack that is not an indicator of intent or heart. Hillary had good policy plans that might have worked. We do, however, need a congress with a majority that is not solely devoted to preventing action, as Obama's was (he had a majority to overcome this for all of 5 months in 2009).

Blaming victims is a lousy strategy, particularly when the minority is your only hope to overcome true evil. True evil is the evolution of the current Republicans in power and their festering takeover of public authorities, the voting apparatus, and the courts.

Rachel Maddow has been devoting her time lately (with a digression into the government failure on Katrina which all of us watched for days on national TV while Bush and his people said they didn't know what was happening) to reporting on the separation of kids (as young as 8 months) from their parents. There is no recordkeeping or identification so the kids and parents can find each other. Local authorities and airline personnel are finding out they were lied to, a vignette of a judge's disgusted reaction when he's told parents don't need to know where their kids are by federal prosecutors (they're now using the military). Alex Azar (Secretary of Health and Human Services) is one of the many Trumpian appointees who doesn't give a flying f*** about his victims and hasn't lifted a pinky for human rights.
--
On the Syrian gas attack, it is surprising that the claim it didn't happen has any credibility in any group of people who I know are at heart compassionate. It is an indicator of the way the internet allows people to find biased material that supports their claims, and ignore material that they don't wish to hear. Like the problem with women, which is varied and individual, claims of trolling go nowhere, but it is obvious that "alternative facts" that are not facts are promoted here on the forum, and it's impossible to sort out the propaganda sources from the honestly misled.

As a veteran of the climate wars, I am all too familiar with the proliferation of misinformation and its insidious spread. I beg of you, exercise intelligent skepticism about your sources if they are promoting Russian propaganda. This is not about US and western history of misdeeds (absent the Marshall Plan), but with not taking dubious material on faith without checking much more carefully. The internet has a whole superstructure for climate denialists. The one attacking Democrats in the US and promoting mayhem is all about helping us on our road to perdition. We may deserve the damnation, but Russia is not the angel in this situation.

Here: https://www.snopes.com/news/2018/04/12/disinformation-conspiracy-trolling-syrian-chemical-attack/ (https://www.snopes.com/news/2018/04/12/disinformation-conspiracy-trolling-syrian-chemical-attack/)

Quote
University of Birmingham, told us although Moscow became militarily involved in the Syrian conflict in 2015, they had a propaganda office at the presidential palace in Damascus since the beginning. “From the very start you could see how they were putting out muddled story lines just to make you uncertain about what’s happening,” he told us.

The White Helmets, also known by their official title Syria Civil Defense, are a non-governmental organization made up of volunteers who carry out rescue efforts in rebel-held territory while wearing small cameras. Aside from saving lives, they have been credited with documenting war crimes. Thus, they are targets of frequent (but unproven and unfounded) smears that they are terrorists who are staging “false flag” attacks.

Lucas told us attacking medical facilities and first responders then accusing them of terrorism is a Russian tactic, because first responders in Syria — where it’s extremely difficult and dangerous for foreign journalists to enter — are often key reporters of atrocities:

    The Russians would go after hospitals and first responders and the propaganda would come out that you shouldn’t trust information from White Helmets or doctors because they’re aligned with the terrorists. They were deliberately bombing the area but saying you can’t trust anyone who is reporting it.

Official Russian government channels are not the only sources of misleading information. Lucas pointed to a coterie of Western social media personalities and bloggers who have concentrated their efforts on running interference for the Assad regime.

Title: Re: RussiaGate And The Media: Examples of Good AND Bad Journalism
Post by: Susan Anderson on June 22, 2018, 10:50:40 AM
Here's more on Syria: https://www.nytimes.com/2018/06/20/world/middleeast/un-syria-eastern-ghouta.html (https://www.nytimes.com/2018/06/20/world/middleeast/un-syria-eastern-ghouta.html) Horrific Details on Syria Chemical Attacks Left Out, for Now, From U.N. Report

And here about torture in Russia before the World Cup: https://www.nytimes.com/2018/06/20/opinion/world-cup-russia-torture-putin.html (https://www.nytimes.com/2018/06/20/opinion/world-cup-russia-torture-putin.html)

Quote
Now read the words of Dmitry Pchelintsev as they appeared in MediaZona, a small independent online publication focused on police brutality and the prison system in Russia: “The man in surgical gloves cranked the DC generator with wires attached to my toes. The calves of my legs started contracting violently, I was paralyzed with pain. They threw me on the floor, pulled my underpants down and tried to attach the wires to my genitals. I clenched my teeth so hard that my mouth was full of blood and shards of broken teeth.”

Mr. Pchelintsev, a 26-year-old anti-fascist activist from the industrial town of Penza, told his lawyer about this in February — and then, he has said, he was tortured again to make him disown his statement.

He is part of what his torturers — Russia’s main intelligence agency, the F.S.B. — allege is a conspiracy to commit acts of terrorism during the World Cup to provoke “popular masses for further destabilization of the political climate in the country.” Nine young men have been charged in the case with “creating a terrorist cell.” One managed to flee the country; the others have been arrested, tortured and made to confess to being part of an underground terrorist organization called “the Network.” There’s no evidence that any such organization or plot existed.

Things get even weirder: A seamstress in Kazan, one of the World Cup host cities, says she was framed by a police officer who pretended to be a customer with a very specific request to make a life-size doll of Zabivaka, the 2018 World Cup’s mascot — and then charged her with violating FIFA’s copyright rules.

None of this should come as a surprise. President Vladimir Putin has given the Russian security services free rein in the lead-up to the World Cup.
Title: Re: RussiaGate And The Media: Examples of Good AND Bad Journalism
Post by: Susan Anderson on June 22, 2018, 07:11:20 PM
ASILurker: Pot meet kettle. I suggest you block his posts (you can go to your profile and find this function with a little fiddling), since your comments are an escalation and undermine what you have to say. On the merits, Rob Dekker is less abusive than you are, and more accurate as to reality.

Rob Dekker, when he or she does this, please take the high road and remain silent. Please address the issues, not the person, and imagine some real lurker who is confused by apparent evidence on the merits of the arguments and judges based on relative affect rather than the effects we are discussing.

None of us are well served by personal pissing contests.
Title: Re: RussiaGate And The Media: Examples of Good AND Bad Journalism
Post by: TerryM on June 22, 2018, 11:02:13 PM
ASILurker: Pot meet kettle. I suggest you block his posts (you can go to your profile and find this function with a little fiddling), since your comments are an escalation and undermine what you have to say. On the merits, Rob Dekker is less abusive than you are, and more accurate as to reality.
Susan


In recent posts you've defended the White Helmets, perpetuated the myth of Syrian gas attacks, and accused the Russians of exactly the same torture methods that we've documented as having taken place under the watch of America's most recently vetted CIA chief.
Vetted I might add, by so many of the Corporate Democrats you defend so nobly, that she is now the public face of  America's CIA.


Now you defend Rob Dekker and advise the victim to block Rob's vitriolic posts?


Are your canvases as devoid of shading as your posts?
Terry
Title: Re: RussiaGate And The Media: Examples of Good AND Bad Journalism
Post by: sidd on June 22, 2018, 11:40:43 PM
Media doing an iraq repeat,  love every war. Shut the war down ? No way. Zakaria, Kristof, Bremmer, all beating war drums:

https://original.antiwar.com/porter/2018/06/21/an-elite-coalition-emerges-against-a-trump-kim-agreement/

You would think these guys are being paid by Raytheon and General Dynamics and Boeing. But the sadder reality probably is that war is good for media profitability.

sidd

Title: Re: RussiaGate And The Media: Examples of Good AND Bad Journalism
Post by: sidd on June 23, 2018, 12:03:22 AM
Nader nails it again:

"Would be nice if Laura Bush and Michelle Obama had expressed similar heartfelt concern for the tens of thousands of children killed or seriously maimed by the wars of their husbands in Iraq, Afghanistan and elsewhere. -R "

https://www.commondreams.org/news/2018/06/22/ralph-nader-asks-former-first-ladies-why-no-heartfelt-concern-tens-thousands

sidd
Title: Re: RussiaGate And The Media: Examples of Good AND Bad Journalism
Post by: Susan Anderson on June 23, 2018, 12:30:57 AM
ASILurker: Pot meet kettle. I suggest you block his posts (you can go to your profile and find this function with a little fiddling), since your comments are an escalation and undermine what you have to say. On the merits, Rob Dekker is less abusive than you are, and more accurate as to reality.
Susan

In recent posts you've defended the White Helmets, perpetuated the myth of Syrian gas attacks, and accused the Russians of exactly the same torture methods that we've documented as having taken place under the watch of America's most recently vetted CIA chief.
Vetted I might add, by so many of the Corporate Democrats you defend so nobly, that she is now the public face of  America's CIA.

Now you defend Rob Dekker and advise the victim to block Rob's vitriolic posts?

Nice multi-person personal attacks, fact free as usual, and oblivious to the vitriol you yourself have evidenced in this comment. You appear to ignore anything anyone posts with content you don't want to believe, except as material for serial insults.

If you believe that, I've got a swamp in Florida to sell you. That's why I only look at your posts when I have the stomach to read them. Your consistent promotion of the Putin propaganda version does not enhance your credibility. You apparently don't read anything I say for content except when you want to promote alternative realities.
Title: Re: RussiaGate And The Media: Examples of Good AND Bad Journalism
Post by: TerryM on June 23, 2018, 06:51:39 AM

Nice multi-person personal attacks, fact free as usual, and oblivious to the vitriol you yourself have evidenced in this comment. You appear to ignore anything anyone posts with content you don't want to believe, except as material for serial insults.

If you believe that, I've got a swamp in Florida to sell you. That's why I only look at your posts when I have the stomach to read them. Your consistent promotion of the Putin propaganda version does not enhance your credibility. You apparently don't read anything I say for content except when you want to promote alternative realities.
Would you prefer that I bold and quote each paragraph you have so recently penned?
I don't promote pro Putin propaganda, but rather strive to blunt the anti Putin propaganda that's so popular in the MSM. If you had read my posts, as diligently as I read yours you might have come to this conclusion on your own.


In those moments that are freed by not reading my posts could I suggest searching for articles that contain "Koch Brothers" + "Bill Clinton" +  "Democratic Leadership Council"?


Your views of the machinations of the "Kochupus", or the inherent goodness of all Democratic leaders may be altered during the exercise. On the other hand you might gain insight into why some of us are so insistent on supporting those that eschew corporate funding.
Terry
Title: Re: RussiaGate And The Media: Examples of Good AND Bad Journalism
Post by: Hefaistos on June 23, 2018, 02:02:13 PM
The personal problems that Mercouris had, that made him do some misdeeds as a barrister, are, however, totally unrelated to his current position as chief editor at The Duran. I think his analysis of russiophobia is excellent, and great journalism.

Hefaistos, the piece by Mercouris is a fact free opinion piece. Why do you say this is "excellent, and great journalism" ? Just because you agree with his opinion ?

Nowhere in this article do I see any mention of the facts : Of Russia's aggression in Georgia, or in Ukraine, or Russia annexing Crimea, or shooting down MH17, or the Skripal poisoning (other than the mention that Skripal deflected to the west), no mentioning of the Russian bombing of hospitals in Syria, nor of the Russian interference in the US elections (and 26 other countries), no mentioning of Russian support for Assad using chemical weapons, nor any mention of Russia threatening nuclear war with the west.

Any of these are examples of increased Russian aggression, which did not go unnoticed in the free world, and Mercouris ignores all of it.

He then simply asserts "russiophobia" without context. This makes his piece a fact-free, biased piece of pro-Russian propaganda, and yes, in that context it is good to check out the author, where we find out, surprise, surprise, that he is a a columnist of RT, Voice of Russia and russia-insider.com.

You could have known, since consortiumnews.com is on the propornot.com list for repeatedly spreading Russian propaganda.

Rob, that article is a review of a lot of stories comprising British-related parts of Russiagate. It doesn't purport to provide any other evidence than referring to well-known sources such as articles in the Guardian, and other main stream media, etc.
Is the concept of a review article known to you Rob?
Yes, it is good Journalism. It paints the overall picture, it analyzes and explains why the British establishment is blinded by russophobia.
Why do you so often spice up your posts with your hate of Russia? You repeatedly mention totally unrelated things just to display your hate. What has the conflict in Georgia to do with the British russiophobia discussed by the author, e.g.? You immediately place yourself in a sand pit, and start throwing sand around you.
Title: Re: RussiaGate And The Media: Examples of Good AND Bad Journalism
Post by: SteveMDFP on June 23, 2018, 04:39:37 PM

I suspect that such biases may underly the overblown criticism of Pelosi,  Feinstein, and Hillary Clinton, and many others.


Oh that's plain silly. Not by men and women or LGBTIQ on the left liberal progressive pro-community side of politics - it isn't. The criticisms are obviously always about what they say what they do and what they VOTE in Congress.

Please show us a good piece of journalism which shows that the voting records of Pelosi,  Feinstein, and Hillary Clinton differ from the left liberal progressive side of politics. Because I'm a left liberal progressive voter and I find their voting record to be excellent.

I  *largely* agree.  However, several votes point to both of them being rather hawkish on defense/security/crime issues.  Feinstein more than Pelosi.  However in all the realms that folks here might be most concerned about (environment, health care, taxation/inequality) they're rock-solid progressives.  As a blue state, California could do better, with less-hawkish policy goals.

The disdain for Pelosi, in particular, strikes me as insane.  During her time as Speaker, she was more successful than any predecessor in shepherding progressive legislation through the House.  She may be aging, but she shows no signs of decline. Some of those who say she's too old to lead seem to see no problem quoting the older Chomsky.  Old men can be leaders, but old women can't?

It's true, however, that the prospect of Pelosi as Speaker again drives many on the Right, and a few on the Left, into conniption fits.  That prospect might just drive more Republicans to the  polls in November.  I suspect it would be best if she disavowed any interest in serving as Speaker again.
Title: Re: RussiaGate And The Media: Examples of Good AND Bad Journalism
Post by: sidd on June 24, 2018, 12:23:10 AM
Sheldon Wolin died a few years ago, but here is a three hour interview with Chris Hedges. Well worth the time.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LGc8DMHMyi8

And for those who prefer, here is the transcript.

http://www.activatingdemocracy.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/01/Sheldon-Wolin-interviewed-by-Chris-Hedges.pdf


sidd
Title: Re: RussiaGate And The Media: Examples of Good AND Bad Journalism
Post by: sidd on June 24, 2018, 05:56:19 AM
Medialens contrasts UK coverage of the world cup with that of 2012 olympics:

http://medialens.org/index.php/alerts/alert-archive/2018/873-enlightened-corners-the-russia-2018-world-cup.html

sidd
Title: Re: RussiaGate And The Media: Examples of Good AND Bad Journalism
Post by: Rob Dekker on June 24, 2018, 09:16:12 AM
Yes, it is good Journalism. It paints the overall picture, it analyzes and explains why the British establishment is blinded by russophobia.
Why do you so often spice up your posts with your hate of Russia? You repeatedly mention totally unrelated things just to display your hate....

I don't hate Russia at all. I hate Russian propaganda. With its denial, its lies, and its blame, and its mind boggling hypocrisy.

Even the word "russophobia" itself is used as propaganda.
It is used as a last (and often only) line of defense against critics of Russia's actions and policies.

This article is spot-on :

https://medium.com/dfrlab/putinatwar-how-russia-weaponized-russophobia-40a3723d26d4
Title: Re: RussiaGate And The Media: Examples of Good AND Bad Journalism
Post by: Rob Dekker on June 28, 2018, 08:57:33 AM
If you follow ASILurker's references, you will eventually get to what this is all about : Attacks by neo-Nazis of Roma tent settlements in Ukraine, and specifically the last one :
 
Regarding the lethal attack (1 dead) on a Roma camp in Ukraine, has been linked by law enforcement to a popular VKontakte (VK) community called “Sober and Angry Youth” (Твереза та зла молодь Ukrainian, or Трезвая и Злая Молодежь in Russian).

Bellingcat did a really good in-depth investigative piece on this group with 85,000 followers, which appears to be a pan-Slavic neo-Nazi movement that spans across Russia, Ukraine and Serbia :

https://www.bellingcat.com/news/uk-and-europe/2018/06/26/straight-edge-neo-nazi-group-attacked-ukrainian-roma-camp/

Ukrainian law enforcement response to these repeated attacks on Roma tent settlements was ridiculously slow, but now that somebody died, they seem to change course. Seven people have been arrested on murder charges :
https://www.rferl.org/a/seven-arrested-for-deadly-attack-on-roma-camp-in-western-ukraine/29316319.html
Title: Re: RussiaGate And The Media: Examples of Good AND Bad Journalism
Post by: Hefaistos on June 28, 2018, 09:29:12 AM
"Ukrainian government banning journalists from attending a conference on freedom of speech.
...I have attended at least half a dozen OSCE workshops aimed at achieving similar objectives to this one; namely finding ways to protecting journalists’ safety and create media freedom and pluralism in times of conflict across OSCE states. Held under the auspices of the office of the Representative on Freedom of the Media, the conferences are usually held at the organization’s headquarters in Vienna. I don’t understand why the decision was made to hold the latest one in Kiev."

Paula Slier booted at Ukrainian border.

https://www.rt.com/op-ed/431029-slier-ukraine-free-speech/
Title: Re: RussiaGate And The Media: Examples of Good AND Bad Journalism
Post by: Rob Dekker on June 28, 2018, 10:21:42 AM
Paula Slier booted at Ukrainian border.

That does not surprise me.
Paula Slier has been documented with Russian forces firing GRAD missiles at Ukrainians here :

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_fzPjWCx65M

And she is smiling all the way through it.
Do you honestly think that Ukrainians like that kind of "journalism" ?
Title: Re: RussiaGate And The Media: Examples of Good AND Bad Journalism
Post by: Rob Dekker on June 29, 2018, 04:38:54 AM
The NYT produced a very good documentary about the Douma chemical attack that killed at least 34 people, answering the WHO, WHEN, WHAT, WHERE and part of WHY questions with compelling evidence :

https://www.nytimes.com/video/world/middleeast/100000005840873/syria-chlorine-bomb-assad.html?smid=tw-nytimes&smtyp=cur&smvar=th-video

Make no mistake about it, folks : These chemical attacks are war crimes, no matter how much Russian propaganda tries to deny they ever happened.
Title: Re: RussiaGate And The Media: Examples of Good AND Bad Journalism
Post by: TerryM on June 29, 2018, 04:57:00 AM
Didn't the NYT prove that Saddam had WMDs?
Terry
Title: Re: RussiaGate And The Media: Examples of Good AND Bad Journalism
Post by: Rob Dekker on June 29, 2018, 09:34:03 AM
Didn't the NYT prove that Saddam had WMDs?

Can you indulge us with a link ?
Title: Re: RussiaGate And The Media: Examples of Good AND Bad Journalism
Post by: sidd on July 08, 2018, 08:48:52 PM
Greenwald on the bankruptcy of MSNBC:

"NBC News and MSNBC have essentially merged with the CIA and intelligence community and thus use their tactics. The network is filled with former Generals and CIA officials who are part of the community that pioneered these smear tactics of accusing journalists and critics they dislike of being traitors, spies and Kremlin loyalists. Indeed, Nance sometimes appears on MSNBC along with former CIA Director John Brennan, who MSNBC also hired as an “analyst.” This is who they are."

https://theintercept.com/2018/07/08/msnbc-does-not-merely-permit-fabrications-against-democratic-party-critics-it-encourages-and-rewards-them/

Goes on to lambast Howard Dean and the Democratic Party; includes the link to Lee Fang expose to Dean lobbying:

https://theintercept.com/2016/01/21/howard-dean-despite-denials-has-long-sad-history-of-selling-himself-on-k-street/

sidd
Title: Re: RussiaGate And The Media: Examples of Good AND Bad Journalism
Post by: Martin Gisser on July 10, 2018, 02:06:46 AM
Greenwald on the bankruptcy of MSNBC:

"NBC News and MSNBC have essentially merged with the CIA and intelligence community and thus use their tactics. The network is filled with former Generals and CIA officials who are part of the community that pioneered these smear tactics of accusing journalists and critics they dislike of being traitors, spies and Kremlin loyalists. Indeed, Nance sometimes appears on MSNBC along with former CIA Director John Brennan, who MSNBC also hired as an “analyst.” This is who they are."

https://theintercept.com/2018/07/08/msnbc-does-not-merely-permit-fabrications-against-democratic-party-critics-it-encourages-and-rewards-them/

Wrong thread. This is not about smear journalists. Greenwald is neither good nor bad. He is just an angry useful idiot with an axe to grind (if not worse). His recent fame is for his smear of Hillary and his effective Trump campaign collusion.

So poor Mr. Greenwald finds one (1) wrong statement by Malcolm Nance in 2016 and writes a whole long article about it in 2018. Looking suspicious, no?

While Stein did indeed have no show on RT (as Nance wrongly stated), there was another show hosted by RT: The U.S. Greens Party presidential debate. LMAO...
https://thinkprogress.org/jill-stein-campaign-russia-ecf424ac3b7e/

Quoth https://www.dailykos.com/stories/2018/7/8/1778987/-Greenwald-Smears-Nance-MSNBC-Dems-to-Stand-Up-For-Russia-Stein
Quote
Greenwald Smears Nance, MSNBC, Dems in Order to Stand Up For Russia, Stein
(...)

Greenwald must have learned something from his frequent stints on Fox, because he then compares Nance to Joe McCarthy, says “NBC News and MSNBC have essentially merged with the CIA and intelligence community and thus use their tactics” (his entire body of proof? NBC/MSNBC has hired John Brennan and a few military and intelligence officials as paid experts) and broadens his attacks on the Democratic Party as a whole, citing Howard Dean’s “secret” associations with corporate interests to “prove” that the Dems are coordinating false attacks on our wonderful brothers and sisters in the Kremlin to advance their own aims.

What do I say to all of this? Fuck you, Glenn Greenwald, you useful and willing tool of the Kremlin. Fuck you for undermining the Clinton campaign in 2016, and fuck you for your upcoming attempts to undermine the Dems in 2018. Fuck you sideways.
and fuck "your" fucken Pulitzer... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Glenn_Greenwald
Title: Re: RussiaGate And The Media: Examples of Good AND Bad Journalism
Post by: jacksmith4tx on July 10, 2018, 04:55:46 AM
ASILurker,

We should freeze Kissinger's brain so someday we can download it. Imagine the skeletons in that closet! Who killed JFK, AIDS was a CIA plot, 9/11...

There's plenty of time to develop some amazing technology before we run out of natural resources.
I found the book "What Technology Wants" by Kevin Kelly had some good insights into where our technology is going. I'm not saying technology is going to save civilization from a big collapse but we aren't going extinct because of technology like genetic engineering.
If you are into social trends he has some good statistics here:
http://kk.org/extrapolations/
Title: Re: RussiaGate And The Media: Examples of Good AND Bad Journalism
Post by: sidd on July 10, 2018, 05:27:06 AM
Re: Wrong thread

Mr. Buddy began the thread, i will defer to his opinion. Or, if Neven has strong feelings, to him.

sidd
Title: Re: RussiaGate And The Media: Examples of Good AND Bad Journalism
Post by: Martin Gisser on July 10, 2018, 01:44:28 PM
Re: Wrong thread
That was with tongue in cheek
Title: Re: RussiaGate And The Media: Examples of Good AND Bad Journalism
Post by: Buddy on July 23, 2018, 08:55:04 PM
I guess when Maria allowed Larry Kudlow (Donnies chief economic advisor) to OPENLY LIE ABOUT GROWTH in the USA .... that wasn't enough for Maria Bartoromo.  She has to jump on the Sean Hannity Lying Train with both feet.

https://www.realclearpolitics.com/video/2018/07/22/bartiromo_is_it_high_time_we_admit_the_obama_administration_spied_on_the_gop_presidential_nominee.html

Now she says:  "Is It High Time We Admit the Obama Administration Spied On the GOP Presidential Nominee?"  Of course, she was interviewing Donald Trump's favorite TV lawyer, Alan Dershowitz.

Either FOX needs to hire Alex Jones (bat shit crazy of Infowars) OR ..... Alex needs to go to work for FOX.  Because FOX and InfoWars are on the same path these days.

 
Title: Re: RussiaGate And The Media: Examples of Good AND Bad Journalism
Post by: Neven on July 24, 2018, 12:28:05 AM
Re: Wrong thread

Mr. Buddy began the thread, i will defer to his opinion. Or, if Neven has strong feelings, to him

How about we remove "Russiagate And" from the title? What say you, Buddy?
Title: Re: RussiaGate And The Media: Examples of Good AND Bad Journalism
Post by: Buddy on July 24, 2018, 12:36:16 AM
I’m flexible ..... fine with me.
Title: Re: RussiaGate And The Media: Examples of Good AND Bad Journalism
Post by: mostly_lurking on July 24, 2018, 08:22:18 AM

Either FOX needs to hire Alex Jones (bat shit crazy of Infowars) OR ..... Alex needs to go to work for FOX.  Because FOX and InfoWars are on the same path these days.

 
Not even close- Alex is so way far gone. Doesn't mean he isn't right once in a while.
Title: Re: The Media: Examples of Good AND Bad Journalism
Post by: Susan Anderson on July 26, 2018, 09:18:44 PM
Unfortunately, comedy is cutting rather close to the bone these days. The best reporting is coming from our late night guys (clips mostly won't cross the pond). https://www.newyorker.com/humor/borowitz-report/republicans-accuse-rosenstein-of-secretly-plotting-to-uphold-constitution (https://www.newyorker.com/humor/borowitz-report/republicans-accuse-rosenstein-of-secretly-plotting-to-uphold-constitution)
Quote
Satire from The Borowitz Report
Republicans Accuse Rosenstein of Secretly Plotting to Uphold Constitution

By Andy Borowitz

WASHINGTON (The Borowitz Report)—House Republicans on Thursday accused the Deputy Attorney General, Rod Rosenstein, of “secretly and nefariously” implementing a plot to uphold the United States Constitution.

In a joint press conference, Representatives Mark Meadows, of North Carolina, and Jim Jordan, of Ohio, said that they had “ample evidence” that Rosenstein was prepared to protect the Constitution “by any and all means at his disposal.”

“There is only one way to describe Rosenstein’s obsession with putting the Constitution before all other concerns,” Meadows said. “Conflict of interest.”

“It is almost as if Rod Rosenstein had taken some kind of solemn oath to defend a centuries-old document,” Jordan said. “This should make every American very, very scared.”

Though the Republicans have shelved their articles of impeachment against Rosenstein for now, they hope that their impeachment threat will send a clear message to Rosenstein that his reckless allegiance to the Constitution will no longer be tolerated.

“If, going forward, Rosenstein uses his position at the Department of Justice to seek justice, he will be crossing a red line,” Meadows said.
Title: Re: The Media: Examples of Good AND Bad Journalism
Post by: Buddy on July 27, 2018, 06:16:03 PM
A good start ....

Facebook also removes 4 Infowars videos, including one it previously cleared

https://www.yahoo.com/finance/news/facebook-removes-4-infowars-videos-071703333.html


.... but clearly much further to go.  You can't allow sites like InfoWars and FOX News to exist, WHEN YOU KNOW THEY BLATENTLY LIE.


I would LOVE an HONEST "conservative" network news show.  But I am NOT talking about a "lobbyist news show" like FOX.

Humanity has a LONG WAY TO GO.  And we need to get rid of mind numbing, lying media like InfoWars and FOX News.

Title: Re: The Media: Examples of Good AND Bad Journalism
Post by: Neven on July 28, 2018, 09:40:20 AM
I agree, but who gets to decide what is censured and what not? Companies like Facebook and Twitter? What if Rupert Murdoch buys them and they start censuring the stuff that you love?
Title: Re: The Media: Examples of Good AND Bad Journalism
Post by: sidd on July 31, 2018, 09:23:36 PM
Chomsky on media failure:

"Instead, what’s being—there is a focus on what I believe are marginalia."

https://www.democracynow.org/2018/7/27/noam_chomsky_on_mass_media_obsession

sidd
Title: Re: The Media: Examples of Good AND Bad Journalism
Post by: Susan Anderson on August 01, 2018, 05:14:52 AM
https://www.newyorker.com/news/news-desk/trump-vs-the-times-inside-an-off-the-record-meeting (https://www.newyorker.com/news/news-desk/trump-vs-the-times-inside-an-off-the-record-meeting)

Quote
Trump vs. the Times: Inside an Off-the-Record Meeting, David Remnick, 30 July

On July 20th, the new publisher of the Times, A. G. Sulzberger, visited the Oval Office at the invitation of President Trump. The meeting was meant to be off the record. As a matter of policy, Dean Baquet, the executive editor of the Times, will not attend such meetings without being able to report on them. Instead, Sulzberger went to the session accompanied by James Bennet, the editorial-page editor. The meeting, which Trump clearly intended as a way both to introduce himself to Sulzberger and to complain about coverage, became, in the course of more than an hour, something a great deal more revealing.
....
Not surprisingly, Trump took up much of the seventy-five-minute session extolling his accomplishments, real and imagined. He also wanted to sell Sulzberger and Bennet, to explain to them just why he was so critical of the press and routinely brands the “failing” Times and so many other outlets as “fake news.”

.... “fake news” first entered the language in the late nineteenth century; it came to the fore most recently as a way of describing fabricated stories, not a few of them engineered for profit in Russia and other foreign countries. Trump adopted the phrase for his own purposes during the 2016 campaign and has deployed it as a weapon in his broader attempt to delegitimize the news outlets—the Times, the Washington Post, CNN, and many more—that he views as political adversaries, and to create a kind of parallel universe of “alternative facts” and realities.

During the Oval Office discussion, Sulzberger pointed out to Trump that foreign leaders, particularly authoritarians and despots, have taken up Trump’s language and angle of attack. And the reason is not hard to discern: autocrats from Manila to Yangon, Ankara to Caracas, Beijing to Moscow, have found it advantageous to point out that even the President of a country that gave primacy to freedom of speech and the press in its Constitution disdains the news media as “fake.”

Last year, the Chinese state news agency denied a report that police had tortured Xie Yang, a human-rights activist, as “essentially fake news.” The Syrian President, Bashar al-Assad, denied an Amnesty International report on the thousands of people who died in a military prison between 2011 and 2015 by telling Yahoo News, “You can forge anything these days. We are living in a fake-news era.” U Kyaw San Hla, a top security official in Rakhine State, in Myanmar, denied ethnic cleansing in the country, insisting, “There is no such thing as Rohingya. It is fake news.” (Two Reuters journalists who exposed the killings of ten Rohingya are currently on trial in Myanmar and face up to fourteen years in prison.) In Venezuela, President Nicolás Maduro went on the Russian state channel RT and declared that “Venezuela is being exposed to bullying by the world media besieging us. . . . This is what we call ‘fake news’ today, isn’t it?” After the Cambodian government put journalists in prison, expelled Radio Free Asia, and closed dozens of radio stations and the Cambodia Daily, Prime Minister Hun Sen went on the offensive against critical coverage in the West, saying, “I would like to send a message to the President that your attack on CNN is right. American media is very bad.”
....
The Times publisher told the President that he was even more concerned about Trump branding the press as “enemies of the people”—a phrase used by the Jacobins in eighteenth-century France and by Stalin at the height of the Great Purge, in the late nineteen-thirties. (When Nikita Khrushchev denounced Stalin, in the fifties, he said that “the formula ‘enemy of the people’ was specifically introduced for the purpose of physically annihilating such individuals.”) Sulzberger argued that the use of such a phrase was inflammatory, dangerous to journalists both in the United States and abroad. Journalists were getting threats, he told the President. Some news outlets were posting armed guards at their offices. Journalists abroad were being imprisoned, murdered. To inflame that situation with such rhetoric was a true danger, a match lowered to a tinderbox. Sulzberger pressed this point twice, both in the middle of the session and toward the end.

Strikingly, Trump did not argue and at least pretended to take it onboard. He did not apologize, by any stretch, but he tried to get across the possibility that he would think about it.
....
The problem is that Trump’s assault on the press has been remarkably effective. He is by no means the first President to resent or attack the press. ... But none has ever waged battle with the press so obsessively. Trump’s ferocious attacks at rallies and on social media give a direction and a language to his amplifying outlets: Sean Hannity, Tucker Carlson, Rush Limbaugh, the Drudge Report, Breitbart, and countless trolls online.

Trump’s capacity to create alternative and polarizing realities, to divert attention from his failures and scandals, to inflame his opponents, and to foment a general atmosphere of culture war and mutual recrimination is perhaps his greatest political talent. ...

Steve Bannon, once Trump’s chief ideologist, put the matter well earlier this year when he told Michael Lewis, “We got elected on Drain the Swamp, Lock Her Up, Build a Wall,” he said. “This was pure anger. Anger and fear is what gets people to the polls.” Bannon added, “The Democrats don’t matter. The real opposition is the media. And the way to deal with them is to flood the zone with shit.

... as the crowd booed the reporters, Trump added the Orwellian finisher: “What you’re seeing and what you’re reading is not what’s happening.”

Quote
... dying newspaper industry. No matter how much they try to distract and cover it up, our country is making great progress under my leadership and I will never stop fighting for the American people! As an example, the failing New York Times ...

... and the Amazon Washington Post do nothing but write bad stories even on very positive achievements - and they will never change!

Sound familiar?
Title: Re: The Media: Examples of Good AND Bad Journalism
Post by: TerryM on August 01, 2018, 11:22:19 AM
It's all OK as long as I can continue to refer to Fox News as Faux News.  :)
Terry
Title: Re: The Media: Examples of Good AND Bad Journalism
Post by: sidd on August 03, 2018, 07:56:33 PM
America's Finest News Source:

"We in the news media despised you imbeciles long before Trump, and we’ll despise you long after he’s gone."

"Mr. Trump believes the press is too critical of him. No fucking shit. We are critical of everyone who is not us. The press hates you. All of you. We are what you deserve."

https://www.theonion.com/the-onion-proudly-stands-with-the-media-as-the-enemy-1828068740

sidd
Title: Re: The Media: Examples of Good AND Bad Journalism
Post by: Neven on August 04, 2018, 01:12:06 PM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PPMjgM3dJYg
Title: Re: The Media: Examples of Good AND Bad Journalism
Post by: Martin Gisser on August 04, 2018, 01:36:27 PM
Jimmy Dore goes full-on on RT
Hahaaaaahahaha... now he's officially a Russian agent!
Title: Re: The Media: Examples of Good AND Bad Journalism
Post by: Rob Dekker on August 07, 2018, 10:08:32 AM
YouTube has removed Alex Jones' page, following bans earlier Monday from Apple and Facebook.

The Alex Jones Channel, which counts 2.4 million subscribers, still appeared in YouTube search results by midday Monday, but presented only a take-down notice when users clicked in.

"This account has been terminated for violating YouTube's Community Guidelines," the notice said.

https://www.cnbc.com/2018/08/06/youtube-removes-alex-jones-account-following-earlier-bans.html

It's a start.
Title: Re: The Media: Examples of Good AND Bad Journalism
Post by: mostly_lurking on August 07, 2018, 11:18:04 AM
YouTube has removed Alex Jones' page, following bans earlier Monday from Apple and Facebook.

The Alex Jones Channel, which counts 2.4 million subscribers, still appeared in YouTube search results by midday Monday, but presented only a take-down notice when users clicked in.

"This account has been terminated for violating YouTube's Community Guidelines," the notice said.

https://www.cnbc.com/2018/08/06/youtube-removes-alex-jones-account-following-earlier-bans.html

It's a start.

Alex is a crazy ass. Saying that- this is a start to fascism. Slippery slope.
Title: Re: The Media: Examples of Good AND Bad Journalism
Post by: Neven on August 07, 2018, 12:46:07 PM
Alex is a crazy ass. Saying that- this is a start to fascism. Slippery slope.

Yes, when you allow corporations to decide what is permissible discourse and what not, which alternative media source is next? If your judicial system isn't able to cope with the excesses coming out of extreme fringes, do you really think these extreme fringes will disappear by shutting down their ways of communicating? You're only making them stronger because it's the wrong thing to do. You have to counter their information with better information, and let the judicial system take care of the rest (harassing etc).

The Young Turks and Kyle Kulinski weigh in:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L90yjmdk-Z8

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oXrLrjT8N2g
Title: Re: The Media: Examples of Good AND Bad Journalism
Post by: SteveMDFP on August 07, 2018, 02:31:24 PM
Alex is a crazy ass. Saying that- this is a start to fascism. Slippery slope.

Yes, when you allow corporations to decide what is permissible discourse and what not, which alternative media source is next?

YouTube is a privately-owned platform.  They get to decide what is allowed to be on their platform.  Anyone who doesn't like it can seek out some capital to start their own video hosting site.  There are alternatives already.

You think government should force YouTube to permit all comers, regardless of what the platform owners want?  Wouldn't that be fascist?
Title: Re: The Media: Examples of Good AND Bad Journalism
Post by: Neven on August 07, 2018, 03:33:10 PM
YouTube is a privately-owned platform.  They get to decide what is allowed to be on their platform.

I don't know, Steve. The service that YouTube offers is more than just a service. It's a public service that amounts to an agora (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Agora), you know, the place where ancient Greek citizens would gather to discuss stuff. Now imagine that agora was owned by some rich aristocrat who suddenly decides: Socrates is no longer allowed to speak here. No, I'm not saying Alex Jones is Socrates, (although Socrates allegedly was a PITA in his own way  ;) ), but it's about the principle.

Quote
Anyone who doesn't like it can seek out some capital to start their own video hosting site.  There are alternatives already.

So, who has the most money, decides? That's what you're saying, boils down to.

Quote
You think government should force YouTube to permit all comers, regardless of what the platform owners want?  Wouldn't that be fascist?

So, if YouTube would shun gays or black people from its website, and the government wouldn't allow it, would that be fascist? Again, it's a matter of principle. It's too simple to say, YouTube, Facebook, Twitter, they're companies and they can do as they please. For that their service is too important to the public.

Never mind that this just reinforces the idea that there is an establishment narrative, and deviating from it, means you get shunned from public discourse. It's far from a solution.

You're probably not aware of it, Steve, but I've just read your comment a couple of times now, and you're actually saying really dangerous things.
Title: Re: The Media: Examples of Good AND Bad Journalism
Post by: jacksmith4tx on August 07, 2018, 04:33:14 PM
Don't ban Alex Jones, control his brain.
https://bigthink.com/aeon-ideas/remote-control-of-the-brain-is-coming-how-will-we-use-it
Quote
In the past couple of years, researchers have pioneered a newer technique using low-frequency radio waves or a magnetic field, both of which can penetrate the body without causing damage. The waves serve to heat iron oxide nanoparticles injected or genetically targeted to the body region of interest. In a process similar to optogenetics, the heated nanoparticles open an ion channel called TRPV (transient receptor potential vanilloid), allowing calcium ions into the cell.

It seems only a matter of time before we use similar technology to treat neurological and mental health problems originating in the brain. Toward this end, some researchers are working with gold nanoparticles, which, when exposed to special light, can generate enough heat to make a neuron fire without the need to alter its genes.   

More research is needed, but these systems are potentially more precise and less invasive than existing techniques for altering brain activity such as deep brain stimulation. With so much progress on a variety of fronts, some form of human mind control – and the treatments and benefits it confers – should be here before long.
Title: Re: The Media: Examples of Good AND Bad Journalism
Post by: SteveMDFP on August 07, 2018, 05:53:26 PM

Quote
You think government should force YouTube to permit all comers, regardless of what the platform owners want?  Wouldn't that be fascist?

So, if YouTube would shun gays or black people from its website, and the government wouldn't allow it, would that be fascist? Again, it's a matter of principle. It's too simple to say, YouTube, Facebook, Twitter, they're companies and they can do as they please. For that their service is too important to the public. 

Fair point.  Provision of this service to the public is a form of commerce.  Commerce is always regulated, to some degree, in all societies--at least since Hammurabi.

Thus, non-discriminatory practices in commerce are typical in many countries.  Still, forcing an entity to permit posting of any and all materials is hardly reasonable regulation.  These organizations thus have community guidelines they enforce.

It seems to me the beef about InfoWars materials boils down to whether the community guidelines being enforced are reasonable.  There's no issue here of IW materials being discriminated against on the basis of race, creed, gender, national origin, etc.  And i imagine the ban is reasonably in keeping with published community guidelines.

Perhaps the internet should be better regulated to prevent FaceBook, YouTube, Twitter, etc from having monopolistic control over their respective modes of dissemination.  Seems a whole 'nother potential slippery slope, though.
Title: Re: The Media: Examples of Good AND Bad Journalism
Post by: Neven on August 07, 2018, 11:19:40 PM
Thus, non-discriminatory practices in commerce are typical in many countries.  Still, forcing an entity to permit posting of any and all materials is hardly reasonable regulation.  These organizations thus have community guidelines they enforce.

But what if some asshole like Rupert Murdoch starts buying up these organisations and decides: No more AGW material, because it's controversial/political?

It's a marketplace of ideas. As strange as it may seem, the nutty/dangerous/fringe stuff can serve a purpose. It's a never ending task to counter it, and as onerous and frustrating as it may seem, as tempting as it is to just shut it down (which almost always results in the opposite effect), it's the only way humanity can go forward.

So, as much as I dislike Alex Jones, shutting him out is a mistake.
Title: Re: The Media: Examples of Good AND Bad Journalism
Post by: AbruptSLR on August 07, 2018, 11:30:45 PM
A big part of the GOP would like Trump to decide what is good and what is bad journalism:

Title: "New Poll: 43% of Republicans Want to Give Trump the Power to Shut Down Media"

https://www.thedailybeast.com/new-poll-43-of-republicans-want-to-give-trump-the-power-to-shut-down-media

Extract: "The “enemy of the people” talk is working. A plurality of self-identified Republicans say they want Trump to have the power to take “bad” media outlets out."

Title: Re: The Media: Examples of Good AND Bad Journalism
Post by: Neven on August 07, 2018, 11:41:34 PM
Right, and as an added argument, they can say: 'They' did it to Alex Jones too.

Or like Kyle Kulinski explains in the video I posted (if I remember correctly), three out of four people that aren't allowed to speak on college campuses, are actually leftists. But all everyone talks about is Milo and Ben Shapiro.

The situation with corporate media as the mouthpiece for concentrated wealth, is already problematic enough. This kind of stuff may mean there is no way back, and Americans will de facto live in a 1984-type world (many already are).
Title: Re: The Media: Examples of Good AND Bad Journalism
Post by: jacksmith4tx on August 08, 2018, 12:06:29 AM
I agree with Neven. You don't win the long game by silencing the extreme voices. You have to steal their audience like Trump did. There are no rules, truth is subjective.
Title: Re: The Media: Examples of Good AND Bad Journalism
Post by: SteveMDFP on August 08, 2018, 12:13:29 AM
Right, and as an added argument, they can say: 'They' did it to Alex Jones too.

Or like Kyle Kulinski explains in the video I posted (if I remember correctly), three out of four people that aren't allowed to speak on college campuses, are actually leftists. But all everyone talks about is Milo and Ben Shapiro.

The situation with corporate media as the mouthpiece for concentrated wealth, is already problematic enough. This kind of stuff may mean there is no way back, and Americans will de facto live in a 1984-type world (many already are).

So, if we should prevent censorship of online discussion, should climate change deniers be permitted to post freely on ASIF?
What's good for the goose. . .
Title: Re: The Media: Examples of Good AND Bad Journalism
Post by: sidd on August 08, 2018, 07:50:28 AM
"should climate change deniers be permitted to post freely on ASIF?"

in my opinion, yes. That's why we have the ignore setting.

An improvement would be to have an ignore button on every post, right beside the poster name. once pressed that poster disappears forever from all threads. or i suppose you could do it by thread.

An aphorism i recall is, "Those who did not know Usenet are doomed to reinvent it badly."

Usenet is still going, and i still participate. I am often tempted to set up a NNTP server and gateway some of this forum into it ... 

sidd
Title: Re: The Media: Examples of Good AND Bad Journalism
Post by: Neven on August 08, 2018, 10:47:06 AM
So, if we should prevent censorship of online discussion, should climate change deniers be permitted to post freely on ASIF?
What's good for the goose. . .

What's good for the ant, isn't good for the elephant. I'm not a trillion-dollar corporation. You can make this argument again, when forum membership surpasses 1 million and the ASIF starts influencing public opinion.

Besides, the analogy is built on sand, as this is an online discussion forum, whereas YouTube is a  video-sharing website. If I make a video on the melting season, no one can interrupt it with AGW disinformation or disrupt my channel. And no one is forced to view the rebuttals to my video.

It's really important to separate personal tastes from principles here, or before you know it, you turn out to be an authoritarian fascist yourself. Don't let the 'enemy' drag you down to his level.
Title: Re: The Media: Examples of Good AND Bad Journalism
Post by: Pmt111500 on August 08, 2018, 12:02:07 PM
Right, and as an added argument, they can say: 'They' did it to Alex Jones too.

Or like Kyle Kulinski explains in the video I posted (if I remember correctly), three out of four people that aren't allowed to speak on college campuses, are actually leftists. But all everyone talks about is Milo and Ben Shapiro.

The situation with corporate media as the mouthpiece for concentrated wealth, is already problematic enough. This kind of stuff may mean there is no way back, and Americans will de facto live in a 1984-type world (many already are).

So, if we should prevent censorship of online discussion, should climate change deniers be permitted to post freely on ASIF?
What's good for the goose. . .

Only if they want to join the global conspiracy of scientists of READING THEM F----NG THERMOMETERS CORRECTLY. F.e. republican posters should provide proof they're not CROSS-EYED, from a democratic doctor, can't trust those republican ones who selectively and secretly  prescribe mind-altering drugs to potential republican voters.
Title: Re: The Media: Examples of Good AND Bad Journalism
Post by: Neven on August 08, 2018, 01:40:35 PM
Someone else weighs in, whom some people here would like to see silenced as well, I bet:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b_LlMmL6Ylk

Ron Placone:

Quote
It's interesting to me, because I've been seeing a lot of this on the blogosphere today, and there have been some people on the left kind of celebrating this. And then when people come out there... I mean, I don't like Alex Jones either. We don't disagree that he publishes a lot of despicable stuff, but don't you see the slippery slope here? And they're like: Well, they're a private company and they can do what they want. It's like, man, you're sounding a lot like the people that are defending the NFL not allowing players to kneel during the anthem. You're sounding a lot like those people. They're a private company.

Should those private companies have 'lack of patriotism' in their community guidelines? Or 'conspiracy theories verboten'? Foreign hackers put out stuff to support you and so we have to take you down? Who are next? The 'Putin puppets'?

Like Dore explains: In the end this hurts the left, because people on the left are smart enough and most prone to attack the powers that be. By creating this precedent, it is a matter of time before other people get censored. That's the slippery slope, and that's why this is such an important matter of principle.
Title: Re: The Media: Examples of Good AND Bad Journalism
Post by: Susan Anderson on August 08, 2018, 06:26:52 PM
Alex Jones has, among other things, made the lives of the parents whose young children were gunned down in Sandy Hook a living hell, by encouraging his followers to attack them as "crisis actors". They've had to hide from actual violence. His incitements to violence are not freedom of speech. He's a profit center. If you believe somebody who supports incitements to violence and mayhem based on lies, that's an indication that you are being led by the nose. Here's a more honest assessment:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WyGq6cjcc3Q (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WyGq6cjcc3Q)
Title: Re: The Media: Examples of Good AND Bad Journalism
Post by: jacksmith4tx on August 08, 2018, 08:56:18 PM
When Neven referenced Usenet it reminded me of the early days when everyone was 'in the clear' and used their real names, place of work, even their phone numbers. Things sure seemed so much more civil. Then AOL happened and things went psycho.
Serious question.
What if everyone online(internet/LAN/wireless) was required to be 'transparent'? No more avatars, only live humans with a unique ID (thinking along the lines of what Google is doing).
https://www.google.com/landing/2step/

While most multi-factor authentication is used for security the flip side of the technology could be extended to everything we interact with on the networks. Could it change how we express ourselves? Would it reduce the level of misleading information, propaganda and fraud?

For deep thinkers read this:
http://www.fourmilab.ch/documents/digital-imprimatur/
Title: Re: The Media: Examples of Good AND Bad Journalism
Post by: Neven on August 09, 2018, 12:15:43 AM
Alex Jones has, among other things, made the lives of the parents whose young children were gunned down in Sandy Hook a living hell, by encouraging his followers to attack them as "crisis actors". They've had to hide from actual violence. His incitements to violence are not freedom of speech. He's a profit center. If you believe somebody who supports incitements to violence and mayhem based on lies, that's an indication that you are being led by the nose. Here's a more honest assessment:

Agreed 100% and John Oliver gives an excellent example of how to fight that, but it says nothing about the discussion at hand:

Should megacorporations that essentially offer a marketplace as a service have the right to censor?
Is there a risk that this constitutes a slippery slope?
And is it a smart thing to do with the goal in mind?

I say no, yes, no.
Title: Re: The Media: Examples of Good AND Bad Journalism
Post by: Martin Gisser on August 09, 2018, 01:31:00 AM
Should megacorporations that essentially offer a marketplace as a service have the right to censor?
In light of the Trump election, the Rohingya crisis, a few other atrocities, where Facebook played a role, plus the technically necessary censorship of Twitter bots, customer privacy protection, etc. etc. ...
I'd say yes.

Quote
Is there a risk that this constitutes a slippery slope?
Looks like slippery slopes all around. (Censorship or fascism, stupidity amplification...)

If that megacorporation does not have a monopoly I see no problem.


They are censoring carnal porn already, so why not try get that brain masturbator (Alex Jones) out of reach of late pubescents and the morbidly stupid?

Apropos stupidity amplification: I invented that term before Angela Merkel used the wörd Fake News. The Trump election is a grandiose example of this phenomenon. ... I insist in the moral philosophical human right of Trying to Abstain from Adding to Stupidity Amplification. (Otherwise we are toast.) --- This "right" should even be enforced on corporations and markets by regulation - if necessary.


-------------------------
Anyway, I guess they deleted Alex Jones due to customer complaints, incl. legal challenges (slander).

Title: Re: The Media: Examples of Good AND Bad Journalism
Post by: Rob Dekker on August 09, 2018, 06:16:42 AM
Alex Jones has, among other things, made the lives of the parents whose young children were gunned down in Sandy Hook a living hell, by encouraging his followers to attack them as "crisis actors". They've had to hide from actual violence. His incitements to violence are not freedom of speech. He's a profit center. If you believe somebody who supports incitements to violence and mayhem based on lies, that's an indication that you are being led by the nose.

+1. Thank you, Susan. My words exactly.

Quote
Here's a more honest assessment:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WyGq6cjcc3Q (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WyGq6cjcc3Q)

Where Dore is only talking about having "more speech" against the hate mongerers like Alex Jones, John Oliver actually delivers. In his own brilliant way.
Title: Re: The Media: Examples of Good AND Bad Journalism
Post by: Rob Dekker on August 09, 2018, 06:29:48 AM
Should megacorporations that essentially offer a marketplace as a service have the right to censor?

Absolutely.
Not just megacorporations, but also discussion forums like this one.
There needs to be a line drawn about what is acceptable and what not.
That's typically outlined in the posting guidelines which you need to agree to before you use the service. If you don't like these guidelines, find another service or start one of your own.

I don't see why that is such a big deal.

Remember that without limits, you could have ISIS openly calling for violence or beheadings of particular persons or groups. You would not allow that here on the ASIF and neither would Facebook, Youtube or any other open internet service.

P.S. Incidentally, where are the ASIF posting guidelines ?
Title: Re: The Media: Examples of Good AND Bad Journalism
Post by: Pmt111500 on August 09, 2018, 09:30:27 AM
I hear Alex Jones himself shut his social media connections down as he is preparing his case against the parents of a school shooting victims. He's claiming the school shooting has been staged, and wants to publish the addresses of the parents he's claiming to be in the conspiracy to stage their children's deaths, in order to prove his case.

I know that doesn't make much sense but I'm glad of his decision to shut his social media accounts.
Title: Re: The Media: Examples of Good AND Bad Journalism
Post by: Neven on August 09, 2018, 09:52:27 AM
Where Dore is only talking about having "more speech" against the hate mongerers like Alex Jones, John Oliver actually delivers. In his own brilliant way.

Well, Jimmy Dore spit Alex Jones in the face not too long ago, and I'm sure he's done several segments on him over the years, so there you go. Progressive (more or less) commentators like Kyle Kulinski, David Pakman and Sam Seder have segments on Alex Jones all the time.

What I like about the John Oliver bit, is that he does it with satire, which is the most powerful way of addressing bad stuff.

I don't see why that is such a big deal.

That's because you have trouble separating your personal tastes from general principles. You stand 100% behind establishment narratives, so as long as corporate media doesn't get turned off, there's not much of a problem.

Simply shutting things down, because you don't like them, is never going to solve anything and gets you further and further away from a free society.
Title: Re: The Media: Examples of Good AND Bad Journalism
Post by: Neven on August 09, 2018, 10:15:01 AM
When Neven referenced Usenet it reminded me of the early days when everyone was 'in the clear' and used their real names, place of work, even their phone numbers. Things sure seemed so much more civil. Then AOL happened and things went psycho.
Serious question.
What if everyone online(internet/LAN/wireless) was required to be 'transparent'? No more avatars, only live humans with a unique ID (thinking along the lines of what Google is doing).
https://www.google.com/landing/2step/

While most multi-factor authentication is used for security the flip side of the technology could be extended to everything we interact with on the networks. Could it change how we express ourselves? Would it reduce the level of misleading information, propaganda and fraud?

For deep thinkers read this:
http://www.fourmilab.ch/documents/digital-imprimatur/

I actually think this would be a very good idea, or at the very least a discussion worth having  (and opened a thread (https://forum.arctic-sea-ice.net/index.php/topic,2273.msg145661.html#msg145661) about this very subject last year).
Title: Re: The Media: Examples of Good AND Bad Journalism
Post by: Rob Dekker on August 09, 2018, 10:22:33 AM
Where Dore is only talking about having "more speech" against the hate mongerers like Alex Jones, John Oliver actually delivers. In his own brilliant way.

Well, Jimmy Dore spit Alex Jones in the face not too long ago,
That's Jimmy Dore's idea of "more speech" ?

Quote
and I'm sure he's done several segments on him over the years, so there you go.
I'm not so sure of that. You have an example of where Dore addresses Jones ?
The problem is that Dore and Jones share promoting the same conspiracy theories (UraniumGate come to mind).

Quote
Progressive (more or less) commentators like Kyle Kulinski, David Pakman and Sam Seder have segments on Alex Jones all the time.
I'm sure you are right. But an example would be nice.
Quote
What I like about the John Oliver bit, is that he does it with satire, which is the most powerful way of addressing bad stuff.
Agreed.
Quote
I don't see why that is such a big deal.

That's because you have trouble separating your personal tastes from general principles. You stand 100% behind establishment narratives, so as long as corporate media doesn't get turned off, there's not much of a problem.
C'mon Neven.
ASIF is not different from corporate platforms.
There are rules that users need to comply with.
You currently impose them at will. At your own discretion.
For example, if ISIS starts posting on ASIF, what would you do ?
I hope you would shut them down.

If you are a bigger company, you need to post some rules, so that you can shut them down with reason. That's not "establishment narratives" but just common sense.
 
Quote
Simply shutting things down, because you don't like them, is never going to solve anything and gets you further and further away from a free society.

Facebook and Youtube did not shut down Alex Jones because they "don't like them".
They shut him down because he violated their posting guidelines against hate speech and inciting violence.

ASIF still does not seem to have any posting guidelines.
Other platforms do. Here are the ones from metabunk (who I respect very much) :
https://www.metabunk.org/posting-guidelines.t2064/

Would that serve as a good example of posting guidelines for ASIF ?
Title: Re: The Media: Examples of Good AND Bad Journalism
Post by: Neven on August 09, 2018, 11:38:37 AM
I'm not so sure of that. You have an example of where Dore addresses Jones ?

I remember seeing several segments, especially in the work Dore has done for TYT, but I can't find them. The search function on YouTube isn't all that great, and the spit incident obviously takes up most of the search results.

I found this short clip where halfway the clip they discuss Alex Jones for a bit, which maybe explains why Dore doesn't talk about Alex Jones as much as other progressive commentators.

https://youtu.be/kA6Z4wiLCPo?t=159

Quote
Quote
Progressive (more or less) commentators like Kyle Kulinski, David Pakman and Sam Seder have segments on Alex Jones all the time.

I'm sure you are right. But an example would be nice.

Kyle Kulinski (https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=kyle+kulinski+alex+jones)

David Pakman (https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=david+pakman+alex+jones)

Sam Seder (https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=sam+seder+alex+jones)

John Oliver can be funny at times, but these guys do the in-depth stuff. All the time. Of course, because it gets them clicks, but that doesn't matter.

Quote
C'mon Neven.
ASIF is not different from corporate platforms.
There are rules that users need to comply with.
You currently impose them at will. At your own discretion.
For example, if ISIS starts posting on ASIF, what would you do ?
I hope you would shut them down.

It depends on how they would act. If they were just trolling, I'd ban them straight away. If they would eloquently explain their positions, and people could restrain themselves and explain what's right or wrong about those arguments, I'd look at how far it could go.

ASIF is very different from Facebook and YouTube, on multiple levels.

Quote
If you are a bigger company, you need to post some rules, so that you can shut them down with reason. That's not "establishment narratives" but just common sense.

I agree, but the service that companies like YouTube, Facebook and Twitter provide, is so big that it has become a public marketplace, and its importance supersedes - in my view - corporate guidelines with regard to censure. Like I said, the judicial system needs to handle the excesses. They can't be prevented by simply shutting things down.
 
Quote
Facebook and Youtube did not shut down Alex Jones because they "don't like them".
They shut him down because he violated their posting guidelines against hate speech and inciting violence.

If that is the case, they could have done so much earlier, and they didn't have to do it all at the same time. It's clear that this has been pushed by people who don't like Alex Jones. They simply want it to go away, and think they can by shutting down his means of communication. But Jones had 2.5 million subscribers on YouTube. They're not going anywhere, especially now that Alex Jones can play the martyr role.

Again, imagine some asshole like Rupert Murdock buying up YouTube and Facebook, shutting down the stuff you like. Would you buy the arguments you're using in this case? Do you accept the same arguments condoning what the NFL does wrt kneeling players?

Quote
Would that serve as a good example of posting guidelines for ASIF ?

We can discuss that elsewhere.
Title: Re: The Media: Examples of Good AND Bad Journalism
Post by: Neven on August 09, 2018, 02:38:30 PM
I hadn't seen this Sam Seder video yet and he proposes a solution (break up the FB, YT, etc monopolies):

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IHofIKRV-Ns
Title: Re: The Media: Examples of Good AND Bad Journalism
Post by: Susan Anderson on August 09, 2018, 08:31:39 PM
More on Alex Jones. Please do, at the least, go to 4:20 where it mentions the US military budget, which is something that is used to attack those of us who hate this as well as those who like it. Facts are facts, though, and it's not a good thing, any way you look at it.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vBb7MSNE6fk (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vBb7MSNE6fk)
Title: Re: The Media: Examples of Good AND Bad Journalism
Post by: Neven on August 09, 2018, 08:38:15 PM
I think we can all agree on Alex Jones: He peddles crazy stuff for money. The more interesting question is whether corporations that have gained a monopoly on a large part of the marketplace, can censure as they please, and whether that's a good thing or a bad thing.
Title: Re: The Media: Examples of Good AND Bad Journalism
Post by: Susan Anderson on August 09, 2018, 08:54:01 PM
Yes Neven, I think we could all agree that corporate power is out of control. If I were queen of the world, I'd break up Facebook today. Unfortunately, that would also cut off the Parkland students, Black Lives Matter, MeToo, and all other forms of protests and organization for the resistance. Unfortunately, freedom is now used to support the likes of Alex Jones, attacking honest news, military-grade weapons, religious repression of birth control & family planning, attacks on health care for all, hate speech and incitements to violent action, voter suppression and cheating, etc.

Just like climate denial, they simply turn the words around, and since they have no scruples, hey presto!

But I actually came to provide a link to a very fine Inside Climate News report: https://insideclimatenews.org/news/07082018/heartland-institute-climate-change-denial-trump-administration-fossil-fuels-carbon-tax (https://insideclimatenews.org/news/07082018/heartland-institute-climate-change-denial-trump-administration-fossil-fuels-carbon-tax)

Quote
Climate Change Denialists Never Had It So Good. So Why the Angst?
Despite having unprecedented influence in Washington to achieve a fossil fuel-first agenda, conservative interests are eyeing events outside the Beltway with unease.


The highest Trump administration official to appear at the conclave was Brooke Rollins ... [who] serves in the White House as assistant to the president in the Office of American Innovation. Heartland President Tim Huelskamp, a former Kansas Congress member who chaired the Tea Party caucus, asked her if Trump would take on the endangerment finding and other "golden calves of the left." ....

Jay Lehr, the Heartland Institute's science director, noted the "major role" that Heartland played in urging Trump to withdraw from the Paris climate accord.

Lehr asked Rollins if Trump would stay the course. "People keep thinking he could still back down," he said.

"All of my experience has proven out that when this president says he believes in something, then there is no one more bold or courageous or fearless," Rollins said. "Does that mean I can say today he will never change his mind? No. But it does go to the question of how important organizations like Heartland and Texas Public Policy Foundation are."
Title: Re: The Media: Examples of Good AND Bad Journalism
Post by: Rob Dekker on August 10, 2018, 08:52:36 AM
Quote
Would that serve as a good example of posting guidelines for ASIF ?

We can discuss that elsewhere.

I started a new thread, called "Posting Guidelines" here :
https://forum.arctic-sea-ice.net/index.php/topic,2369.msg166597.html
Title: Re: The Media: Examples of Good AND Bad Journalism
Post by: Neven on August 10, 2018, 12:07:51 PM
I think Jimmy Dore explains the problems with the de-platforming of Alex Jones well, and this is a reasonably good discussion. It's funny that Dore takes this position, after having spit Jones in the face two years ago, but that's how it works with principles:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=goNDSUZsQ1c

Ron Placone doesn't say much, but he nails it again with this: It's very interesting seeing the people on the left all of a sudden defending Facebook's corporate person-hood, because it's used against someone they don't like, which is Alex Jones.

Of course, so does Jimmy Dore: If you think this is effective, there are so many unintended consequences from this. Not only that it's going to be used to silence the left, you're actually cheering on fascism, you're actually cheering on the squelching of freedom of speech. Again, the answer to bad speech, isn't censorship. The answer to bad speech, is more speech.
Title: Re: The Media: Examples of Good AND Bad Journalism
Post by: Neven on August 10, 2018, 12:18:40 PM
Unintended consequences:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9vq-Ne84f5c

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lF6eI4cKgco
Title: Re: The Media: Examples of Good AND Bad Journalism
Post by: Neven on August 10, 2018, 02:02:04 PM
I post a lot of stuff from progressive commentators. If anyone has interesting stuff in a similar format with regard to this subject (the de-platforming of Alex Jones), I'll watch anything you post, even if it's contrary to the strong arguments by the people I link to.
Title: Re: The Media: Examples of Good AND Bad Journalism
Post by: Neven on August 10, 2018, 02:36:55 PM
Susan, you'll like this one.  ;D

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uWd6XgBVIcg
Title: Re: The Media: Examples of Good AND Bad Journalism
Post by: Susan Anderson on August 10, 2018, 05:31:18 PM
I know everything I need to know about Alex Jones, and he is nauseating. We are approaching the anniversary of the Nazi racist attacks in Charlottesville with some apprehension, given Trump's continuing encouragement of hatred and violence.
Title: Re: The Media: Examples of Good AND Bad Journalism
Post by: Sebastian Jones on August 10, 2018, 05:41:16 PM
I know everything I need to know about Alex Jones, and he is nauseating. We are approaching the anniversary of the Nazi racist attacks in Charlottesville with some apprehension, given Trump's continuing encouragement of hatred and violence.
Indeed. Relating this discussion to the warming climate/ shrinking cryosphere; it is the utterly amoral attitude of people such as Jones and his admirers that lets us trash the ecosystems upon which we all depend. Freedom of speed is not absolute, but the bar needs to be set very high (low?) so that restricting it is very very rare.
Title: Re: The Media: Examples of Good AND Bad Journalism
Post by: GeoffBeacon on August 10, 2018, 07:02:08 PM
Example of bad journalism from a last year - but the impression may remain.

I do believe we have a population problem but I came across this fairly recently

Quote
A teacher with no children goes on several big flights a year. She has a lifestyle far more sustainable than a family of 5, no matter how little they travel.

This idea came from a press release from Lund University The four lifestyle choices that most reduce your carbon footprint (https://www.lunduniversity.lu.se/article/the-four-lifestyle-choices-that-most-reduce-your-carbon-footprint), which said “having one fewer child would save 58.6 tonnes per year.”

This was repeated in many main stream papers, e.g. The Guardian (https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2017/jul/12/want-to-fight-climate-change-have-fewer-children), The Telegraph (https://www.telegraph.co.uk/science/2017/07/11/save-planet-cut-holidays-sell-car-dont-have-many-children-say/).

Although having children, is bad for the planet, it's not as bad as "driving an average car a distance of 1000 kilometers every day of the year. All your life." 

What was missed out of most (or all?) of the journalism was that  the effects of having children in "advanced" countries (USA,Canada, Europe &etc) was very, very, very much worse than in poor countries.

I know this topic has many different angles but the journalism was terrible - swallowing whole the muddle of the original paper.

See Population is a planet emergency but … (http://www.brusselsblog.co.uk/population-is-a-planet-emergency-but). This took me far too long to write, hindered as usual by a way round pay walls.


Title: Re: The Media: Examples of Good AND Bad Journalism
Post by: Jim Hunt on August 12, 2018, 10:11:26 AM
I nominate the good (nay, great) journalism of Gavin Esler, ex BBC:

https://www.theneweuropean.co.uk/top-stories/gavin-esler-changed-my-mind-on-brexit-1-5644402

Not only about Brexit, but also.....

Quote
The idea of supposed ‘balance’ when confronted by “campaigns of disinformation and hate” is especially problematic. In Belfast in the 1980s, even with the bombs going off, balance meant hearing from both unionists and nationalists, Protestants and Catholics. But more recently how can any news organisation ‘balance’ the overwhelming weight of worldwide scientific opinion about MMR vaccines or climate change with the crackpot anti-vaccine theories of Andrew Wakefield or of those who claim climate change is somehow ‘fake news’?

When Lord Lawson used to appear regularly on television to pontificate on the supposed lack of evidence on climate change to ‘balance’ the informed opinions of the best climate scientists worldwide, I wondered why anyone should take seriously the scientific wisdom of a not especially distinguished former chancellor of the exchequer. Would you trust Lord Lawson’s ‘expertise’ to fix your teeth after he read a couple of books on dentistry? So why did he become the go-to ‘balance’ guy for climate scepticism on television and radio?
.
.
.
Lord Lawson, when not offering his expert opinions on climate change, premenstrual tension, or whatever else he claims to know about, is seeking French residency.
Title: Re: The Media: Examples of Good AND Bad Journalism
Post by: sidd on August 12, 2018, 11:09:31 PM
Ames on Naipaul at the Jacobin: As usual, Ames pulls no punches.

"The American right only needs “team players” — shameless, cynical hacks who can be counted on to churn out whatever rank propaganda ordered up by the Heritage Foundation. For that, you need a Rotary Club nihilist like Dinesh D’Souza, someone totally devoid of a literary ego, intellectual curiosity, or a gag reflex."

"If Naipaul wanted to pick up that check from the American right-wing, it wasn’t enough to have fought on the front lines of the ideological battle of the 1970s against the literary Marxists. He’d have to become a lobotomized, conquered version of himself, an Eldridge Cleaver. He’d have to give up everything interesting about himself.

Instead, Naipaul essentially banished himself to the whispered margins of the American right ..."

"At some point, it just couldn’t be ignored: these people were scum; mean, sleazy, boring scum. It became impossible to be near them. They — we — dropped out of the Right, and wanted nothing more to do with it all. But by ruining everything in this country — economically, culturally, intellectually, militarily — the Right essentially chased us wherever we went, poisoning everything they could get their hands on. Until finally there was nowhere to go but leftward. A hardened, mean left."

"Naipaul’s career developed at a time when Western reactionary intellectuals could still be formidable, dynamic and unpredictable; there was space carved out on the Right for reactionary talent like Naipaul. "

" ... the American right has no need of unpredictable talent like V. S. Naipaul, so they’ve driven his species into extinction as well ..."

"Naipaul always despised facile thinking. It was because Naipaul was so committed to merciless observation that he allied himself with reactionary intellectuals of the pre-Reagan, pre-Thatcher era — it was the Left that wore the rose-tinted glasses back then. What Naipaul didn’t realize was how much worse, how much more intellectually stifling America’s right-wing intelligentsia would turn out to be once in power. "

Read the whole thing, even if you disagree:

https://www.jacobinmag.com/2012/04/v-s-naipaul-and-the-american-right

sidd

Title: Re: The Media: Examples of Good AND Bad Journalism
Post by: mostly_lurking on August 14, 2018, 11:40:12 AM
Surprisingly Vox for once reports what actually happened and they get scolded.

https://www.vox.com/identities/2018/8/12/17681986/antifa-leftist-violence-clashes-protests-charlottesville-dc-unite-the-right

Title: Re: The Media: Examples of Good AND Bad Journalism
Post by: sidd on August 14, 2018, 10:45:28 PM
The media would love a nice little war in Central America. Good for ratings. Banging the drums for the liberation of venezuela is a repeat of all the warmongering they have done for centuries.

Watch for a torrent of "anonymous senior officials" decrying the grave threat to stability posed by venezuela, and the urgent need for US action. They'd probably posit weapons of mass destruction, but i think that's past it's "sell by" date.

Right now, Yemen at bat, Venezuela on deck. I'm not that bothered about the Iran situation, looks ike china, russia and the EU have their back.

sidd
Title: Re: The Media: Examples of Good AND Bad Journalism
Post by: sidd on August 15, 2018, 08:03:51 AM
Well, well, well, facebook bans telesur. Liberation for Venezuela draws closer.

sidd
Title: Re: The Media: Examples of Good AND Bad Journalism
Post by: sidd on August 16, 2018, 09:45:54 PM
Finley at the Detroit News:

"Donald Trump is not responsible for the eroding trust in the media. He lacks the credibility to pull that off. The damage to our standing is self-inflicted."

"Respected journalists openly question whether remaining objective in the Donald Trump era is a sell-out rather than a virtue. Some have joined the resistance movement, blending journalism with activism."

https://www.detroitnews.com/story/opinion/columnists/nolan-finley/2018/08/16/media-must-look-itself-restore-trust/979467002/

sidd
Title: Re: The Media: Examples of Good AND Bad Journalism
Post by: sidd on August 16, 2018, 09:56:50 PM
Husseini in the same vein:

" ... the establishment media can draw attention away from their own failures, corruptions and falsehoods simply by focusing on Trump’s."

"[Trump and the media] They are at worst frenemies. More likely, at times, Trump and the establishment media log roll with each other. The major media built up Trump. Trump’s attacks effectively elevate a select few media celebrities."

"None of the newspaper editorials I’ve seen published today mention the likely prosecution of Wikileaks. If there were solidarity among media, the prospect of Julian Assange being imprisoned for publishing U.S. government documents should be front and center today.

Neither did I see a mention of RT or, as of this week, Al Jazeera, being compelled to register as foreign agents."

"Counter to the lofty rhetoric of many of today’s editorials, the promise of an independent and truth-seeking press has frequently been subservient to propaganda, pushing for war or narrow economic and other interests."

"But recently one of his rhetorically tweets stated that media “cause wars“. I would say “push for war”, but that’s quibbling.

Trump is technically right on that point, but it’s totally disingenuous coming from him."

"Meanwhile, much more meaningful collusion that can be termed Israelgate is being ignored as the U.S. and Israeli governments attempt to further mold the Mideast."

https://www.counterpunch.org/2018/08/16/the-trump-media-logrolling/

sidd
Title: Re: The Media: Examples of Good AND Bad Journalism
Post by: sidd on August 17, 2018, 08:48:43 AM
First the came for Assange and we said nothing, for we were not wikileaks. Then they came for RT and we said nothing for we were not russians. Then they came for Telesur and we said nothing for we were not south americans. Then they came for Al Jazeera and we said nothing for we were not middle easterners.

https://disobedientmedia.com/2018/08/we-told-you-that-once-the-establishment-silenced-assange-the-rest-of-the-media-would-be-next-we-were-right/

https://caucus99percent.com/content/who-didnt-see-coming-0

https://caucus99percent.com/content/first-it-was-rt-now-they-are-going-after-al-jazeera

When they come for ASIF, there will be no one left to stand for us.

I, for one, am not waiting. Public key and onion address available offline.

sidd
Title: Re: The Media: Examples of Good AND Bad Journalism
Post by: Buddy on August 17, 2018, 01:49:07 PM
Discussing Infowars and RT as though they are journalistic sources is beyond laughable (your link to "Disobedient Media").  Infowars is is nothing but batshit crazy in order to enrich himself ...... and RT is nothing more than an arm of the Russian government.

Am I worried about "censorship".  ABSOLUTELY.  In fact .... Trump operates in the realm of indirect censorship NOW:

1)  He hasn't given a news conference of any substantial length in well over a year.  A YEAR.

2)  Trump only does "softball interviews" with the propaganda arm of his administration:  FOX.

3)  The fact that FOX allows Sean Hannity to even be on the air when he is nothing more than the right hand man for Trump is just one more example of how FOX is NOT journalism.  It is a fraud .... and always has been. 

THAT .... is a type of censorship. 

A democracy can not work well when it doesn't have GOOD, TRUTHFUL INFORMATION.  In fact .... no "entity" (business, government, any group or individual for that matter) doesn't perform well WITHOUT GOOD, TRUTHFUL INFORMATION...... FACTS.

But including entities like Infowars or RT in the realm of "journalism" is like talking about FOX as journalism.  THEY AREN'T. 

Everything in life has limits.  The freedom of speech should NOT openly allow the "FREEDOM TO LIE" like Infowars, FOX, etc. 
 




Title: Re: The Media: Examples of Good AND Bad Journalism
Post by: sidd on August 17, 2018, 10:10:53 PM
Those baying for the shutdown of ... disagreeable ... media sources might do worse than reflect on Mencken's quote:

"The trouble with fighting for human freedom is that one spends most of one's time defending scoundrels. For it is against scoundrels that oppressive laws are first aimed, and oppression must be stopped at the beginning if it is to be stopped at all."

sidd
Title: Re: The Media: Examples of Good AND Bad Journalism
Post by: Martin Gisser on August 18, 2018, 05:43:48 PM
Meanwhile, https://www.facebook.com/teleSUREnglish/ is back.

https://www.telesurtv.net/english/analysis/Why-Did-Facebook-Delete-teleSUR-English-20180816-0010.html
Quote
Eventually, after two days our account was restored, receiving mixed messages from the Facebook team claiming it was due to instability, and explaining the company had to temporarily suspend our account in order to secure it as they had detected “suspicious activity”
(my emph.)

Some DDOS attack on teleSUREnglish perhaps? Would be unsurprising if they are targeted by hackers and trolls.
Title: Re: The Media: Examples of Good AND Bad Journalism
Post by: ivica on August 18, 2018, 08:15:57 PM
snippet copy

Max Blumenthal @MaxBlumenthal 4h4 hours ago: "And it looks like Caitlin Johnstone (@caitoz) was just bounced from Twitter for saying mean things about John McCain. Everyone okay with this political purge? And who’s next?"

The latest from Caitlin:

Twitter Shut Down My Account For “Abusing” John McCain

Posted by invica on unsorted more info there
https://forum.arctic-sea-ice.net/index.php/topic,2346.msg168034.html#msg168034

Caitlin is back! "Unsorted" updated.
https://medium.com/@caityjohnstone/twitter-has-shut-down-my-account-for-abusing-john-mccain-25e7be909f4d
Title: Re: The Media: Examples of Good AND Bad Journalism
Post by: sidd on August 19, 2018, 12:40:51 AM
WaPo calls for Brennan to be fired:

" ... start to restore in U.S. intelligence agencies some semblance of responsibility to the Constitution and the public."

Good or bad journalism ? It depends ... on your position ... in 2014 ...

https://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/post-partisan/wp/2014/07/31/obama-should-fire-john-brennan/

sidd
Title: Re: The Media: Examples of Good AND Bad Journalism
Post by: TerryM on August 19, 2018, 05:14:38 AM
WaPo calls for Brennan to be fired:

" ... start to restore in U.S. intelligence agencies some semblance of responsibility to the Constitution and the public."

Good or bad journalism ? It depends ... on your position ... in 2014 ...

https://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/post-partisan/wp/2014/07/31/obama-should-fire-john-brennan/ (https://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/post-partisan/wp/2014/07/31/obama-should-fire-john-brennan/)

sidd
There's Good Journalism, Bad Journalism - then whatever it is that the Washington Post prints. 8)
Terry
Title: Re: The Media: Examples of Good AND Bad Journalism
Post by: mostly_lurking on August 19, 2018, 08:40:04 AM
Discussing Infowars and RT as though they are journalistic sources is beyond laughable (your link to "Disobedient Media").  Infowars is is nothing but batshit crazy in order to enrich himself ...... and RT is nothing more than an arm of the Russian government.


Lumping the two together is funny.
RT might be "Russian backed" but that doesn't mean everything they say is wrong. They (obviously) are willing to say some sad truths that the US media will not. Do they add in some "propaganda" sure they do but so does every other media. RT's is just stuff you don't want to hear or know- easier that way.
Title: Re: The Media: Examples of Good AND Bad Journalism
Post by: sidd on August 23, 2018, 07:04:18 AM
Glen Ford on fire at the Black Agenda Report:

"It is a new twist, however -- and a sign of profound disarray among the ruling class -- that a white racist billionaire U.S. president finds himself treated like the “Other” by most of the corporate media."

"It is a battle royal, as the inveterate prevaricators of the U.S. press joust with Trump, a master of the Art of the Lie."

"Silicon Valley and the corporate media are far more effective in conjuring alternative realities than the chaotic Trump White House. Trump tells lies that are easily countered; the New York Times and Google erase facts from history, systematically."

"The deeper the crisis of capitalism, the worse the lies will get, and the further the United States will descend into an information bubble of conjured “facts” and beliefs that are rejected -- held in utter contempt -- by the rest of the planet. I’m not talking about the nonsense that buttresses “American exceptionalism,” a two-bit cracker ideology that the non-white world recognizes as nothing but white settler hubris (even when preached by a Black U.S. president). I mean U.S. "bubble knowledge" vs. hard facts, the kind that erode the very legitimacy of oligarch rule ..."

https://blackagendareport.com/how-long-shelf-life-damnable-racist-capitalist-lies

sidd
Title: Re: The Media: Examples of Good AND Bad Journalism
Post by: SteveMDFP on August 23, 2018, 02:07:52 PM

"Silicon Valley and the corporate media are far more effective in conjuring alternative realities than the chaotic Trump White House. Trump tells lies that are easily countered

This is not at all what I'm seeing in America.  Trump holds the "bully pulpit" of the White House, and his pronouncements inevitably carry great weight with vast swaths of the country, and even elements here on ASIF.

He claims elections have masses of fraudulent votes, and people believe him.  A lie believed.
He claims refugees from south of the border are "invading" and "infesting" the country, causing much crime.  A lie believed.
He claims the FBI and Mueller are partisan Democrats, corrupt and engaging in a witch hunt.  A lie believed.
He claims Russia hasn't meddled, or it may have been China, or others.  A lie believed.
He claims we need to place punitive tariffs on our allies because the US is being victimized in trade.  A lie believed.
He denounces long-time allies, Canada, France, Germany, UK, the EU as a whole and NATO as a whole, all as being against the US.  A lie believed.
He claims he's resolved the Korea crisis, even as NKorea advances its nuclear arms activities.  A lie believed.

He does this by repetition and simple emotive stereotypes.  For most of the public, this approach works and can't be effectively countered by dispassionate examination of facts and analysis.  He's honed the persuasion techniques of a narcissist over his whole life.  He knows on a gut level how to persuade--at least persuade those not of a skeptical mindset.

I try to keep one eye on the thinking of the rank-and-file Right.  Hard to get a picture outside of polling data, and obscured by pronouncements of the visible leaders of the Right.  The single best keyhole I've come across is at RedState.   A totally partisan right-wing website itself, it's commentating readership is limited to long-time conservative-leading regular posters, highly selected by having a limited number, getting in only after long waits on a waiting list.  So zero johnny-come-lately blowhards, paid trolls, unpaid trolls, or foreign agents in disguise.  None of these will wait months to get a chance to post a comment.  It's a more-thoughtful-than-average group of rather conservative-leaning Americans.

A year ago, I perused a wide number of comments on range of articles.  Widespread variety of opinions then on Trump and Trumpism.  Some lovers, some detractors, some thoughtful fact-based commentary.

It's all become a Trumpian echo chamber.  They all believe the demonstrable Trumpian lies.

Trump is at the "bully pulpit," he's using it aggressively, and the tactic is working.
Title: Re: The Media: Examples of Good AND Bad Journalism
Post by: Martin Gisser on August 23, 2018, 11:33:08 PM
"bully pulpit"
hmmm shouldn't that read "bullshit pulpit"?
Title: Re: The Media: Examples of Good AND Bad Journalism
Post by: TerryM on August 24, 2018, 12:26:46 AM
"bully pulpit"
hmmm shouldn't that read "bullshit pulpit"?
There was a time when we took pride in not stooping to 'their' level.
Terry
Title: Re: The Media: Examples of Good AND Bad Journalism
Post by: Martin Gisser on August 24, 2018, 01:35:59 AM
"bully pulpit"
hmmm shouldn't that read "bullshit pulpit"?
There was a time when we took pride in not stooping to 'their' level.
Terry

https://press.princeton.edu/titles/7929.html
Quote
One of the most salient features of our culture is that there is so much bullshit. Everyone knows this. Each of us contributes his share. But we tend to take the situation for granted. Most people are rather confident of their ability to recognize bullshit and to avoid being taken in by it. So the phenomenon has not aroused much deliberate concern. We have no clear understanding of what bullshit is, why there is so much of it, or what functions it serves. And we lack a conscientiously developed appreciation of what it means to us. In other words, as Harry Frankfurt writes, "we have no theory."

Frankfurt, one of the world's most influential moral philosophers, attempts to build such a theory here. With his characteristic combination of philosophical acuity, psychological insight, and wry humor, Frankfurt proceeds by exploring how bullshit and the related concept of humbug are distinct from lying. He argues that bullshitters misrepresent themselves to their audience not as liars do, that is, by deliberately making false claims about what is true. In fact, bullshit need not be untrue at all.

Rather, bullshitters seek to convey a certain impression of themselves without being concerned about whether anything at all is true. They quietly change the rules governing their end of the conversation so that claims about truth and falsity are irrelevant. Frankfurt concludes that although bullshit can take many innocent forms, excessive indulgence in it can eventually undermine the practitioner's capacity to tell the truth in a way that lying does not. Liars at least acknowledge that it matters what is true. By virtue of this, Frankfurt writes, bullshit is a greater enemy of the truth than lies are.

Harry G. Frankfurt is Professor of Philosophy Emeritus at Princeton University. His books include The Reasons of Love (Princeton), Necessity, Volition, and Love, and The Importance of What We Care About.
Title: Re: The Media: Examples of Good AND Bad Journalism
Post by: mostly_lurking on August 24, 2018, 08:10:24 AM
https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/mollie-tibbetts-death-russia-bots-alliance-securing-democracy-trump-cohen-manafort-a8505241.html

"A network of Russian-linked Twitter accounts have been disseminating divisive content about Mollie Tibbetts' death in an apparent attempt to divert attention from explosive news surrounding Donald Trump and his former associates. "

Give me a break. It's like they think EVERY Trump supporter or conservative is a Russian bot....


also - not every thing is a conspiracy theory:

Title: Re: The Media: Examples of Good AND Bad Journalism
Post by: magnamentis on August 24, 2018, 04:35:51 PM
Quote
Rather, bullshitters seek to convey a certain impression of themselves without being concerned about whether anything at all is true. They quietly change the rules governing their end of the conversation so that claims about truth and falsity are irrelevant. Frankfurt concludes that although bullshit can take many innocent forms, excessive indulgence in it can eventually undermine the practitioner's capacity to tell the truth in a way that lying does not.

An accurate description of Martin's comments @ASIF? Or Rob? Or Jimmy Dore?

nice to see a it of a wakeup around, leaning back and chuckling and without going into details, because there rarely is totally right and totally wrong, i enjoy the straight forward posts agains conformists and establishments which, no matter to which group they belong, are resonsible big part that we have to discuss all the things here.

if everyone would speak out his genuine point of view and act accordingly we would have much less problems that are gaining in magnitude.

since i'm not an illusionist i'm quite aware we can't stop the herd of sheeps running over the cliff but it's still good to be aware and keep to the edge to be able to move in more than one direction.
Title: Re: The Media: Examples of Good AND Bad Journalism
Post by: jacksmith4tx on August 24, 2018, 06:46:46 PM
Let's all pause a pico-second to morn the passing of Robin Leach, host of the long running TV series "Lifestyles of the Rich and Famous". Leach was one of the key architects of a decades long propaganda campaign to brainwash the masses to worship wealth and decadence.
https://www.rawstory.com/2018/08/robin-leach-died-heres-clip-trump-talking-infant-daughters-breasts/
Title: Re: The Media: Examples of Good AND Bad Journalism
Post by: sidd on August 25, 2018, 09:01:20 AM
Steppling at counterpunch on the fracture of polity in the USA:

"Papers like the East Village Other, the L.A. Free Press. Berkeley Barb, et al had importance. People were rejecting the idea of ruling class privilege. They also understood the ruling class were the real criminals. Today Google would just erase them. Now we get Rachel Maddow, Fox News and Jordan Peterson. Where once Robert Bly and Alan Ginsburg gave readings to protest the war, in trips they paid for themselves across the entire country. Today were have celebrity war pimps like Angelina Jolie and George Clooney."

" ... when a society confuses the mythic with the real, it is a sign of terminal sickness in that society. "

"Hating Trump has become a of secret handshake among liberals. A part of spiritual self improvement, right alongside Yoga classes and TM."

"For the liberal, the educated classes in America, the status quo is sacred. And they would rather have any version of Brave New World, than to contemplate actual radical change. You know where the most rabid bulging eye, popping veins, hatred of communism can be found? In white liberal America. And it was Malcolm X. who said “The white liberal is the worst enemy to America, and the worst enemy to the black man.” It is the new fall collection for American Exceptionalism."

"The homeless encampments around every city in America are the legacy of so called American Century. That is the end of the line for Western capital and rugged individualism. The post script to Manifest Destiny is a nation of absolute misery, over medicated, and trying hard to NOT see the misery around them. To not see their neighbors have moved….to the nearest homeless encampment. Not see that yet more record days of heat have arrived. Not see that everything is poisoned and wrapped in plastic anyway. Of polluted lakes and scorched earth. A nation of narcissism and despair in equal measures. But at least they can hate Trump together. In that sense the Anti-President is a gift."

Read the whole thing. He has no mercy:

https://www.counterpunch.org/2018/08/24/the-anti-president/

sidd
Title: Re: The Media: Examples of Good AND Bad Journalism
Post by: Neven on August 25, 2018, 11:02:24 AM
"For the liberal, the educated classes in America, the status quo is sacred. And they would rather have any version of Brave New World, than to contemplate actual radical change."

True, unfortunately.
Title: Re: The Media: Examples of Good AND Bad Journalism
Post by: Buddy on August 27, 2018, 08:35:19 PM
Just a friendly reminder as to just how AWFUL FOX News is.  Remember this:

1). FOX is the channel who helped to lie FOR Trump, and helped to cover up his lies.  Donnie’s Chief Of Liars at FOX is Sean Hannity, who with a little luck, will get charged with obstruction of justice himself.

2). FOX is the channel who is in the back pocket of the NRA and who wants as many guns as possible.

3). FOX continues to deny global warming is real .... and they have lied for decades.

People don’t understand just HOW BAD FOX has been.  That is going to become clearer and clearer as the coming months pass by.

Title: Re: The Media: Examples of Good AND Bad Journalism
Post by: TerryM on August 28, 2018, 12:45:29 AM
I wondered which books the Nazi's were burning in those very well photographed bonfires.
It turns out that the 2 most popular authors keeping the home fires burning that May night were Karl Marx and Karl Kautsky. Kautsky was many things, but foremost he was a Marxist theoretician. A list of 4,000 titles were consigned to the pyres.


After the May 10 ceremonies a redo was called on June 21st for areas that had been rained out. After that German book burnings cooled off until 1946, when the Allied Occupation Forces drew up a list of some 30,000 titles to be "confiscated and destroyed". School books, poetry and artwork were included in this oft neglected incident.


When Facebook, Google or U Tube blocks or shuts down sites whose message they've deemed to be pernicious they're following the same old, if not honorable traditions, once rightfully castigated when the DSt (German Student Union) sought to protect their fellow German Citizens from the Fake News that those books might have contained.

Terry
Data according to Wikipedia
Title: Re: The Media: Examples of Good AND Bad Journalism
Post by: mostly_lurking on August 28, 2018, 03:39:22 PM
Who was worse?
Title: Re: The Media: Examples of Good AND Bad Journalism
Post by: Buddy on August 29, 2018, 10:50:29 PM
FOX News quoting the Daily Caller regarding the Chinese hacking into Hillary Clinton’s email server.  So I guess it wasn’t the infamous 400 lb guy after all.  So when is FOX going to get their info from Infowars?

Donnie is losing it BIGLY now.  Just waiting for his next mistake.  Fire Sessions?  Fire Rosenstein?  He’ll do something drastic and stupid ...... you know it’s coming.  It’s just a matter of time.
Title: Re: The Media: Examples of Good AND Bad Journalism
Post by: sidd on August 30, 2018, 04:32:06 AM
He's a liar. But we'll put him on anyhoo. Good for ratings.

(The article carefully doesn't mention some other liars and torturers like Brennan,Clapper,Rogers ...)

https://www.politico.com/story/2018/08/29/lanny-davis-reporters-media-anonymous-sources-michael-cohen-white-house-803920

sidd

Title: Re: The Media: Examples of Good AND Bad Journalism
Post by: mostly_lurking on August 30, 2018, 08:06:19 AM
https://twitter.com/thehill/status/1034852205369671682



Title: Re: The Media: Examples of Good AND Bad Journalism
Post by: Neven on August 30, 2018, 10:54:41 AM
McCain is a hero, Cohen said Trump knew about the infamous Trump Tower meeting, and now CNN comes with this:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hoLmEb1MH-4

Quote
The irony is that when CNN posts an article like this, they're actually sowing discord and disinformation in the United States. That's the irony. They're the ones actually pushing propaganda in a political way to deceive people and influence people in a dishonest way. This is disinformation.

Nutshell...
Title: Re: The Media: Examples of Good AND Bad Journalism
Post by: Neven on August 30, 2018, 11:48:13 AM
small extract from a long article by Dr. Joseph Dillard a psychotherapist

Our imprisonment by scripting

    "Most Americans have no idea that what we are fed by the news media is nothing more than a portrayal of what powerful corporations want us to believe, that what happens to pass as education is as often as not mere propaganda, that what we learn in church may have very little or nothing to do with the truth, that what our parents teach us may be nothing more than an accumulation of their own personal biases, no doubt a rather subtle modification of what they were taught by their parents. And through such a process, governments and nations around the world wield control as to what their citizens, believe, value, and do." -Doug Soderstrom

We grow up scripted into the role expectations of our families and cultures. We are saturated with the prevailing groupthink of our peers at school and at work. Power at all levels, by its nature, generates ideological narratives that manufacture our consent, and awareness of this process is generally understood as a transition into personal autonomy. The ascent from emotional, pre-rational childhood to objectification and reasoning can be viewed as a movement from internalized mass mind groupthink sleepwalking to rational discrimination based on what might be summarized as “Spockian” common sense.[5] Spock is an archetype of orange, mid-personal level, rationality. However, most orange rationality is in the service of vaguely perceived and largely misunderstood prepersonal beliefs, preferences, expectations, scripts, and emotions. We think we are at healthy orange when we are actually manufacturing our consent through the power of intellectual rationalization. While we have learned to use reason in its defense, our center of gravity remains emotional, enmeshed in cognitive distortions and biases.[6] We can see this occurring continuously in the “thinking” of others in the media and on blog posts, but we typically lack the objectivity to see it in ourselves. As we shall see, Wilber appears to be a victim of this common form of blindness, and if he is, you and I probably are as well.

Slaves to Groupthink
http://www.integralworld.net/dillard19.html

I'm re-reading Tolstoy's 'The Kingdom of God is Within You' this summer (yes, I know, Tolstoy is Russian, sorry) and it's in part about exactly this theme. Fascinating. I keep reading stuff in that book I would like to quote here, but my hands have started to hurt recently from typing, and so I try to give them a rest while on holiday. There's so much wisdom in that book, I could quote endlessly.

I said to my wife yesterday: I'm glad Tolstoy didn't live to see the 20th century, and how we're still in the middle of the same vicious cycle in 2018. Poor, brilliant guy.
Title: Re: The Media: Examples of Good AND Bad Journalism
Post by: mostly_lurking on August 30, 2018, 12:55:19 PM
McCain is a hero, Cohen said Trump knew about the infamous Trump Tower meeting, and now CNN comes with this:

...

Oh no! Jimmy called CNN fake news!
 ::)
Title: Re: The Media: Examples of Good AND Bad Journalism
Post by: Buddy on August 30, 2018, 02:46:00 PM
Quote
"Most Americans have no idea that what we are fed by the news media is nothing more than a portrayal of what powerful corporations want us to believe

So ..... according to the above ..... in the US citizens believe what THE CORPORATIONS want you to believe.

But in Russia ..... citizens believe WHAT THE GOVERNMENT FUNDED RT AND TAAS WANT YOU TO BELIEVE.

Boy .... that's a tough choice.  Do I watch US television knowing that advertisers are trying to sell me products ..... OR ..... do I watch Russian government financed television where I would believe what the Russian government wants me to believe.

Choices .... choices ..... choices.  Boy ..... this is a tough one. ;)
Title: Re: The Media: Examples of Good AND Bad Journalism
Post by: mostly_lurking on August 30, 2018, 03:05:51 PM


Boy .... that's a tough choice.  Do I watch US television knowing that advertisers are trying to sell me products ..... OR ..... do I watch Russian government financed television where I would believe what the Russian government wants me to believe.

Choices .... choices ..... choices.  Boy ..... this is a tough one. ;)

You aren't that naive now, are you? This isn't about pushing products.
Title: Re: The Media: Examples of Good AND Bad Journalism
Post by: Buddy on August 30, 2018, 03:30:07 PM
Ron Desantis ...... Republican candidate for Governor of Florida ..... appeared on FOX news

121 TIMES

since Ron started his campaign for governor.  And that is exactly what Donnie and Sean wanted.  Because the Florida governor's race is HUGE for Donnie.  If the Republicans don't win the Governor's race and Florida Attorney General race ...... small hands Donnie is going to be spending a LOT of times at "the big house."  And I'm NOT talking about Trump Tower.  :o  I think Donnie and Sean are more than a little worried.  They HAVE to get Republican's in office to protect them in Florida.  The state of New York is already going after Trump ...... the last thing he needs is for the state of Florida to go after him and his crooked operations out of Mar a Lago.

http://fortune.com/2018/08/29/fox-news-ron-desantis-ads/

Now you understand why I equate FOX and Russia's RT (or TAAS).  And that is EXACTLY what Trump wants.

You see .... FOX has NEVER been a news organization.  It has been propaganda from day 1, as designed by Roger Ailes.  A news organization has JOURNALISM ..... and JOURNALISM is a search for facts and the truth...... which is CLEARLY what FOX does NOT DO.

Whether you are talking about Trump, global warming, gun control, ..... pretty much ANYTHING, FOX is never looking for the truth.

As a FISCAL CONSERVATIVE (and an Independent) it REALLY irks me that FOX lies so much, and pretends to be fiscally conservative.  Last time I checked ..... the following things ARE NOT FISCALLY CONSERVATIVE:

1)  A tax cut, primarily for the very wealthy, that increases the national debt by more than 1 TRILLION DOLLARS.

2) Ignoring global warming, so that the cost to fix things INCREASES EACH YEAR.

3)  To keep allowing the proliferation of guns in the US which increase the cost of law enforcement, the cost of medical care, the cost of infrastructure to guard against everyone and their cat having a gun (schools and other public places).

4) To maintain the MOST EXPESNIVE HEALTHCARE SYSTEM IN THE WORLD ..... and still gets pretty crappy outcomes. 

FOX ..... and the Republican party ..... have sold the US citizens a lie.  And it is a lie from the lobbyists that support the above interests.

 

Title: Re: The Media: Examples of Good AND Bad Journalism
Post by: jacksmith4tx on August 30, 2018, 03:51:13 PM
Outfoxed - by Brave New Films - Robert Greenwald

You can't say we weren't warned about this. This was the ten year anniversary retrospect.
https://youtu.be/_2i_HH54BPk?list=PL54FC814AE797FA21

The original was made in 2004. One of the best independent film makers out there.
https://www.bravenewfilms.org/

Title: Re: The Media: Examples of Good AND Bad Journalism
Post by: sidd on August 30, 2018, 09:32:12 PM
Tolstoy was a large influence on Gandhi, too.

sidd
Title: Re: The Media: Examples of Good AND Bad Journalism
Post by: TerryM on September 03, 2018, 09:50:27 AM
The British ambassador to the US tells reporters that Syria is about to gas her own citizens, then explains that she knows this because Russia has warned of a false flag, so the exact opposite must be true.

https://medium.com/@caityjohnstone/uk-syrian-terrorists-cant-possibly-be-planning-chemical-weapons-false-flag-because-russia-said-7d749d76ea00

Terry
Title: Re: The Media: Examples of Good AND Bad Journalism
Post by: jacksmith4tx on September 04, 2018, 06:28:01 PM
https://mediabiasfactcheck.com

When someone quotes or links to a news source on the web (not social media or blogs) I recommend checking their bias rating at the above website. They cover both US and international news sources. This is completely different than sites like Accuracy in Media (https://www.aim.org/) or Fairness & Accuracy In Reporting (http://fair.org/).
Title: Re: The Media: Examples of Good AND Bad Journalism
Post by: sidd on September 06, 2018, 06:16:17 AM
Kids don't beleive the media either, but i don't think Trump has much to do with it. They grow up faster now and see thru the lies younger. I was watching this happen from the '80s and early '90s when i was much closer to the groves of academe.

https://www.theatlantic.com/technology/archive/2018/08/trump-has-changed-how-teens-view-the-news/568783/

sidd

Title: Re: The Media: Examples of Good AND Bad Journalism
Post by: jacksmith4tx on September 06, 2018, 09:11:17 AM
https://mediabiasfactcheck.com

When someone quotes or links to a news source on the web (not social media or blogs) I recommend checking their bias rating at the above website. They cover both US and international news sources. This is completely different than sites like Accuracy in Media (https://www.aim.org/) or Fairness & Accuracy In Reporting (http://fair.org/).

OK. Looks to me they rank sites based on user feedback - per that panel that exists on every page.

But where do I go to check the bias level, the objectivity, and reliability of conclusion's accuracy of mediabiasfactcheck.com? :)
Good question. Did you try to give feedback? I didn't try it myself. Maybe you should do like Real Clear Politics does with polls and rank the different sites that claim to rank bias. FiveThirtyEight does something similar with their polling sources but with more input variables.
I noticed each ranked source includes who the owners are and where they appear to get their funding. Nice to know that at least.
Frankly we could do what they do with a good AI program.
https://techxplore.com/news/2018-09-neural-network-knowledgeable-snippets-documents.html
Title: Re: The Media: Examples of Good AND Bad Journalism
Post by: jacksmith4tx on September 06, 2018, 05:20:04 PM

Good to see you're not obsessed with AI at least. But can it slice bread and fry an egg too? Probably can because it can do everything else perfectly. :)
Completely avoided the topic Lurk. I only threw in the AI bit because it gets under your skin.  :)
You shop around for news sources like a Catholic picks and choses their ethics and morality.
 
There are two technologies that will define humanity in the not to distant future, AI and genetic engineering. Here's some more technology that's going to change reality.

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/science/minibrain-human-brain-cells-science-ethical-research-university-of-pennsylvania-a8521091.html

Quote
Today, organoids that resemble different regions of the human brain are routinely spun up from stem cells in large batches in laboratories around the world. Researchers have refined their recipes since the technique was first described five years ago, but the process is surprisingly hands-off: after a few nudges from scientists, stem cells grow into spheres with about a million neurons through a naturally occurring choreography that mirrors early brain development in the womb. At Day 100, Mr Qian's minibrains resemble a portion of the prenatal brain in the second trimester of pregnancy.

The scientist interviewed for this story assured us we are a long way from creating synthetic brains.
Maybe in the US but I see no such restrictions for China or Russia.
Quote
"People are more worried about if they reach a certain level - if it's really like a human brain. We're not there; we're very far from there," said Hongjun Song, who leads the laboratory at Penn's Perelman School of Medicine, where Mr Qian works. "But the question people ask is, 'Do they have consciousness?' The biggest problem I have so far is I think, as a field, we don't know: What is consciousness? What is pain?"
Title: Re: The Media: Examples of Good AND Bad Journalism
Post by: sidd on September 06, 2018, 11:41:46 PM
Well heloo there: support for stripping GooFaceTwit of Sec. 230 protection from an unusual source:

https://original.antiwar.com/justin/2018/09/05/the-hi-tech-threat/

sidd

Title: Re: The Media: Examples of Good AND Bad Journalism
Post by: sidd on September 06, 2018, 11:44:25 PM
Warning: Satire

This is an absolutely accurate send-up of media as it exists today: to sell you your five minutes of hate.

"This is truly the worst of both worlds. The only thing more painful than listening to a relative spew ignorant, hateful views is not being able to leverage those outbursts for online attention."

"This is a devastating loss for the #Resistance. With a slightly more bombastic uncle, Zack could totally expose American racism for what it is and get nonstop likes and faves in the process, or even a retweet from Rachel Maddow."

https://resistancehole.clickhole.com/heartbreaking-this-guy-s-uncle-is-racist-but-not-quite-1826327542

sidd
Title: Re: The Media: Examples of Good AND Bad Journalism
Post by: mostly_lurking on September 07, 2018, 10:44:47 AM
Multiple sources used this headline:

Elizabeth Warren: Time to use 25th Amendment to remove Trump from office

https://edition.cnn.com/2018/09/06/politics/elizabeth-warren-25th-amendment/index.html

http://thehill.com/homenews/senate/405447-warren-senior-admin-officials-should-invoke-25th-amendment-against-trump

Actually she didn't say that. She said " "If senior administration officials think the president of the United States is not able to do his job, then they should invoke the 25th Amendment,"

Not the same thing.

Title: Re: The Media: Examples of Good AND Bad Journalism
Post by: sidd on September 08, 2018, 08:06:17 AM
Re: media not " telling you anything about anything."

Mmm. The media are quite useful in one respect. Their narratives are what they want you to believe.  So, qui bono ? who will benefit if the story is sold ? that points directly at their paymasters.

For much the same reason, i used to read the opinion pages of, for example WSJ,NYT,WaPo and the like. Apart from the whole "fascination of the horrible" bit, but i digress.

sidd
 
Title: Re: The Media: Examples of Good AND Bad Journalism
Post by: bluesky on September 08, 2018, 08:11:39 AM
BBC is finally taking action to improve communication on climate change, after repeatedly inviting vocal climato sceptics ( e.g. Nigal Lawson a former conservative  Chancellor of the Exchequer, who is heading a climato sceptics think tank and has direct vested interest in coal industry) to debate with climate scientists , for the so called "neutrality" !!!

https://www.carbonbrief.org/exclusive-bbc-issues-internal-guidance-on-how-to-report-climate-change
Title: Re: The Media: Examples of Good AND Bad Journalism
Post by: Martin Gisser on September 10, 2018, 09:52:35 PM
Four Days in Occupied Western Sahara—A Rare Look Inside Africa’s Last Colony

https://www.democracynow.org/2018/8/31/four_days_in_occupied_western_sahara

This hasn't been shared enough.
If catastrophic climate change doesn't scare you enough, think about peak phosphorus, which will be a multiplier of calamity. We are running against several walls simultaneously. For the time being, industrial agriculture still can feed us - at the cost of the people of Western Sahara.
Title: Re: The Media: Examples of Good AND Bad Journalism
Post by: Klondike Kat on September 10, 2018, 09:59:44 PM
Re: media not " telling you anything about anything."

Mmm. The media are quite useful in one respect. Their narratives are what they want you to believe.  So, qui bono ? who will benefit if the story is sold ? that points directly at their paymasters.

For much the same reason, i used to read the opinion pages of, for example WSJ,NYT,WaPo and the like. Apart from the whole "fascination of the horrible" bit, but i digress.

sidd

I would agree.  The media is becoming less objective all the time.  Instead, trying to inject their own opinions and biases into just about everything.
Title: Re: The Media: Examples of Good AND Bad Journalism
Post by: sidd on September 11, 2018, 09:04:12 PM
Well, well, well. Google execs pushed for Latino voter turnout. Alas, heartbreak ensued when a third of them voted for Trump. And more damningly, Google was aware that the of the partisanship of the effort.

"openly admitting the entire effort to boost Latino turnout using Google products with official company resources was to elect Clinton "

"I sent Philipp a note yesterday to thank him because he and others voiced their support for this too, and we greatly appreciate it. Even Sundar gave the effort a shout out and a comment in Spanish, which was really special"

 “[Google] did not deny that the email was real or that it showed a clear political preference.”

“Ultimately, after all was said and done, the Latino community did come out to vote, and completely surprised us,” Murillo wrote. “We never anticipated that 29% of Latinos would vote for Trump."

“On personal note, we really thought we had shown up to demonstrate our political power against a candidate "

“But then reality set in. "

So sad.

https://www.breitbart.com/big-government/2018/09/10/silent-donation-corporate-emails-reveal-google-executives-efforts-to-swing-election-to-hillary-clinton-with-latino-outreach-campaign/

https://www.breitbart.com/video/2018/09/10/carlson-on-silent-donation-what-could-google-be-doing-this-election-cycle-to-support-its-preferred-candidates-what-could-they-do-in-2020/

sidd
Title: Re: The Media: Examples of Good AND Bad Journalism
Post by: TerryM on September 12, 2018, 01:40:39 AM
sidd
I assume the machinery is still in place to Nationalize a corporation who has proven itself to be a pariah.


Google, IIRC is an International Corporation, (something to do with how their taxes are calculated). We apparently have an International Corporation admitting to many of the same charges that Mueller has spent Million$ trying to pin on other International Corporations.


Lock up the board of directors, slap Hillary and the DNC firmly on the wrist, Nationalize Google, declare victory & cast a jaundiced eye towards Facebook. 8)
Terry
Title: Re: The Media: Examples of Good AND Bad Journalism
Post by: sidd on September 12, 2018, 06:27:53 AM
Re: nationalization of goofacetwit, perhaps amazon

I do not trust the government with the power. Rather than nationalization, i think antitrust breakup, sherman act style. But not a conventional breakup like the ATT in the 1980s. (That's quite instructive, but not directly relevant)

Background:

Goofacetwit makes money by selling ads. How do they get those ads get in your face ? That's a long story.

Let's say, you are a typical person. You look at a typical site on your device of choice. There are around ten ad positions on the page displayed. Each ad in those ad positions has won an auction, before the page displays.

What is the auction based on ? You. The advertiser and the auctioneer have unnervingly close guesses as to your hat size and how long your dick is. (Apologies to the ladies.)

Time was that advertisers would just use the goofacetwit auction platforms. Not any more. They dont trust each other anymore. The ad placement has run thru two, three more internal auctions in shadow markets before it even gets to goofacetwit. Or amazon. For each ad placement position on the page you are looking at. And at the end of the line, the ad inflicts itself on your eyeballs.

Ain't technology wonderful ?

So how to fix ?

1)Privacy laws with teeth and effective enforcement

2)Split ad auctions away from goofacetwit and have the auctions run as a regulated utility, hiding viewer information from advertisers and goofacetwit. (This can actually be done in the context of differential privacy, i have been working on this for a couple years)

Do i think this will happen ? Perhaps in the EU, but not for a long time in the USA, where the legislators are bought and sold by the very entities we are trying to protect against. And that won't stop until Citizen's United and the Buckley decision are overturned.

Realistically in the USA, legislative and enforcement change will not happen until system shock. In the meantime, all i can say is, mask yourself. Use ad blockers. Disable scripting. Use VPNs. What the hell, use lynx in a text terminal. For the truly paranoid, there are further measures. 

But. remember, it ain't paranoia if they really are watching you.

sidd
Title: Re: The Media: Examples of Good AND Bad Journalism
Post by: jacksmith4tx on September 12, 2018, 07:08:08 AM
Re: nationalization of goofacetwit, perhaps amazon

I do not trust the government with the power. Rather than nationalization, i think antitrust breakup, sherman act style. But not a conventional breakup like the ATT in the 1980s. (That's quite instructive, but not directly relevant)

Background:

Goofacetwit makes money by selling ads. How do they get those ads get in your face ? That's a long story.

Let's say, you are a typical person. You look at a typical site on your device of choice. There are around ten ad positions on the page displayed. Each ad in those ad positions has won an auction, before the page displays.

What is the auction based on ? You. The advertiser and the auctioneer have unnervingly close guesses as to your hat size and how long your dick is. (Apologies to the ladies.)

Time was that advertisers would just use the goofacetwit auction platforms. Not any more. They dont trust each other anymore. The ad placement has run thru two, three more internal auctions in shadow markets before it even gets to goofacetwit. Or amazon. For each ad placement position on the page you are looking at. And at the end of the line, the ad inflicts itself on your eyeballs.

Ain't technology wonderful ?

So how to fix ?

1)Privacy laws with teeth and effective enforcement

2)Split ad auctions away from goofacetwit and have the auctions run as a regulated utility, hiding viewer information from advertisers and goofacetwit. (This can actually be done in the context of differential privacy, i have been working on this for a couple years)

Do i think this will happen ? Perhaps in the EU, but not for a long time in the USA, where the legislators are bought and sold by the very entities we are trying to protect against. And that won't stop until Citizen's United and the Buckley decision are overturned.

Realistically in the USA, legislative and enforcement change will not happen until system shock. In the meantime, all i can say is, mask yourself. Use ad blockers. Disable scripting. Use VPNs. What the hell, use lynx in a text terminal. For the truly paranoid, there are further measures. 

But. remember, it ain't paranoia if they really are watching you.

sidd

You might also enjoy:
Schneier on Security https://www.schneier.com/
Krebs on Security https://krebsonsecurity.com/
Just Security https://www.justsecurity.org/

At some point we may need to encrypt our own DNA as a hash key.
Title: Re: The Media: Examples of Good AND Bad Journalism
Post by: TerryM on September 12, 2018, 09:05:48 PM
Goofacetwit, it has such a nice feel as it rolls off the tongue. :P


I'm afraid that since the Citizens United ruling we'll find little appetite in Washington to tear up the huge donors job providers. Goofacetwit can't just provide the cash to get a properly submissive politician elected, goofacetwit can provide the media, the messaging, even do the research to assure that the correct messaging is sent out.


With goofacetwit polishing our message, even as it censors our opponents, we may in a very few years find that elections are expensive, unnecessary, terribly old fashioned (some still require slips of paper), and down right un-American!
The Perfidious Brits had elections, and we fought to get out from under the British System of Government.


Taxation and Representation have been working together for too long.
Down with Taxation!
Down with Representation!


sarc/
Terry ;D
Title: Re: The Media: Examples of Good AND Bad Journalism
Post by: jacksmith4tx on September 12, 2018, 10:27:21 PM
Terry,
You remind me of someone...
In another time and another place you could have been this guy:

"I am an individualist because I am an anarchist. I am an anarchist because I am a nihilist.
I call myself a nihilist because I know that nihilism means negation.
Negation of every society, of every cult, of every rule and of every religion.
I do not renounce life, I exalt and sing it." - Renzo Novatore (b1890-d1922)

Title: Re: The Media: Examples of Good AND Bad Journalism
Post by: sidd on September 12, 2018, 11:33:46 PM
"Syrian news services in the US have been censored, but you can still get streaming jihadist propaganda from al Qaeda-controlled Idlib Province"

https://blackagendareport.com/first-they-came-alex-jones-then-rt-and-syrian-tv

sidd
Title: Re: The Media: Examples of Good AND Bad Journalism
Post by: TerryM on September 13, 2018, 01:58:57 AM
Jack
I could never be a nihilist.
Everyone needs to believe in something
I believe I'll have another Creme Brulee


With apologizes to "America's Greatest Philosopher". according to Stalin
Terry
Title: Re: The Media: Examples of Good AND Bad Journalism
Post by: jacksmith4tx on September 13, 2018, 05:38:04 AM
One of my old favorite sites that track the US war machine:
https://airwars.org/

Through July 2018:

29,948 Coalition strikes
14,316 Strikes in Iraq
15,632 Strikes in Syria
1,494 Days of campaign
6,575 Minimum civilians estimated killed by Coalition
108,462 Airdropped bombs and missiles
Title: Re: The Media: Examples of Good AND Bad Journalism
Post by: SteveMDFP on September 13, 2018, 07:13:01 PM
Some on this forum have taken a stance that censorship by GooFaceTwit is reprehensible, no matter how well-intentioned, even that prohibiting hate speech is counter-productive to progressive aims.

Five years ago, I'd have agreed with this Jeffersonian ideal.  But my sense is that the democratization of publishing has had a very real, shocking effect of amplifying hate, prejudice, bigotry, and even violence.  Social media has become a recruiting tool for humanity's worst instincts.  I no longer believe that social media platforms, on the whole, are a positive development for humanity.

I do share skepticism of the idea that social media should be policed by their corporate owners.  Some independent mechanisms may be preferable, but none are in place.

I base much of the above on a disturbing report from the BBC.  In Myanmar/Burma, long-simmering ethnic tensions have recently exploded into outright genocide against the Rohingya.  The trigger for ethnic cleansing and mass killing?  Facebook.  Just Facebook, alone:

Did Facebook Fuel Hate in Myanmar?
https://www.bbc.co.uk/radio/play/w3csws73 (https://www.bbc.co.uk/radio/play/w3csws73)

Title: Re: The Media: Examples of Good AND Bad Journalism
Post by: Neven on September 15, 2018, 06:33:52 PM
Bad lie-by-omission journalism:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nj4pRlk7Nkk
Title: Re: The Media: Examples of Good AND Bad Journalism
Post by: Rob Dekker on September 16, 2018, 08:52:23 AM
Bad lie-by-omission journalism:

True. The influence of climate change on hurricanes is not reported about enough.
But the overview (at 2:11) shows that 4 networks did reasonably well :
- CNN
- the Washington Post
- the Houston Chronicle and
- the New York Times
Title: Re: The Media: Examples of Good AND Bad Journalism
Post by: jacksmith4tx on September 19, 2018, 06:12:00 PM
Maybe there is another way to get good journalism?
https://civil.co/
Civil is building the new economy for journalism.
"We're a fast-growing community of top journalists and technologists, working together to build a home for trustworthy, sustainable journalism.

We built our careers at places like The New York Times, The Wall Street Journal, BBC, The Guardian, El Pais, Politico, NPR, The Atlantic, The New Republic, New York Magazine, New York Daily News, and DNAinfo."
https://youtu.be/FhJdx_tn5rA

Investigative Journalism runs on Civil
Title: Re: The Media: Examples of Good AND Bad Journalism
Post by: sidd on September 19, 2018, 10:25:28 PM
Thoughtful attempt at better newsmedia:

"The news is: what’s not happening

When you put all this together, it means the news actually fails to deliver on its single biggest promise: to tell us what’s happening in the world. People who follow the news mostly know what doesn’t happen. It portrays the world to us as a never ending string of sensational, unusual, terrible, rapidly forgotten events. In contrast to fake news, which is misleading because it’s simply untrue, real news misleads us in a more subtle and fundamental way. It gives us a deeply skewed view of probability, history, progress, development, and relevance."

"At De Correspondent in the Netherlands, we try to tell precisely those stories that aren’t news, but news-worthy nevertheless. Or, as we often say, that reveal not the weather but the climate ..."

" ... asking ourselves “What are we going to do with this news?” but by asking “What do we have to add to this news that isn’t available anywhere else?” If the answer is “nothing,” then we won’t report on even the most major of news events"

Nice article.

https://medium.com/de-correspondent/the-problem-with-real-news-and-what-we-can-do-about-it-f29aca95c2ea

sidd
Title: Re: The Media: Examples of Good AND Bad Journalism
Post by: TerryM on September 20, 2018, 12:41:17 AM
There was a study a few decades ago that found that the more time people spent watching Fox News, the less well informed they were.
I wonder how all of the MSM news viewers would fare if the test was redone today. 8)
Terry
Title: Re: The Media: Examples of Good AND Bad Journalism
Post by: sidd on September 20, 2018, 11:05:33 PM
Pilger on the abdication of reporters and takeover of the media:

"Dissent tolerated when I joined a national newspaper in Britain in the 1960s has regressed to a metaphoric underground as liberal capitalism moves towards a form of corporate dictatorship."

" ... understand that the source of “fake news” is not only trollism, or the likes of Fox news, or Donald Trump, but a journalism self-anointed with a false respectability: a liberal journalism that claims to challenge corrupt state power but, in reality, courts and protects it, and colludes with it. "

" Subjectivism is all; slogans and outrage are proof enough. What matters is the “perception”.

When he was US commander in Afghanistan, General David Petraeus declared what he called “a war of perception… conducted continuously using the news media”. What really mattered was not the facts but the way the story played in the United States. The undeclared enemy was, as always, an informed and critical public at home."

https://www.counterpunch.org/2018/09/20/hold-the-front-page-the-reporters-are-missing/

sidd
Title: Re: The Media: Examples of Good AND Bad Journalism
Post by: jacksmith4tx on September 20, 2018, 11:48:42 PM
The Long Now Foundation has a new lecture out on a relevant topic.

Soldiers and Scouts: Why our minds weren't built for truth, and how we can change that
http://podcast.longnow.org/salt/redirect/salt-020180912-galef-podcast.mp3

Quote
An expert on rationality, judgement, and strategy, Julia Galef notes that "our capacity for reason evolved to serve two very different purposes that are often at odds with each other. On the one hand, reason helps us figure out what’s true; on the other hand, it also helps us defend ideas that are false-but-strategically-useful. I’ll explore these two different modes of thought — I call them “the scout” and “the soldier” — and what determines which mode we default to. Finally, I’ll argue that modern humans would be better off with more scout mode and less soldier mode, and I’ll share some thoughts on how to make that happen.” Galef is founder of the Update Project and hosts the podcast Rationally Speaking.

I have found some really great seminars at their website. Most are about science topics but there are plenty of talks on other subjects like economics, history and geopolitics.
http://longnow.org/seminars/
Title: Re: The Media: Examples of Good AND Bad Journalism
Post by: sidd on September 22, 2018, 09:11:47 PM
America's Finest News Source on new NYT Editor in Chief:

https://www.theonion.com/new-york-times-announces-appointment-of-anonymous-sou-1829232788

sidd
Title: Re: The Media: Examples of Good AND Bad Journalism
Post by: sidd on September 23, 2018, 05:39:34 AM
Matt Taibbi attacks media, including himself, on coverage of  Sanders to tax employers whose workers need state assistance.  Rather good, as usual.

"Sanders was thrashed in the press"

"... reports cited the objections of the Center on Budget and Policy Priorities (CBPP) ..."

" ... the CBPP — which receives at least $2 million from the Walmart foundation ..."

Sanders:  “You can turn the TV and watch it hour after hour, channel after channel after channel, and not see one relevant piece of information.”

" Jeff Bezos is worth $160 billion, and, according to one infuriating study, earns the median salary of an Amazon employee every nine seconds. If you go by net worth in stock holdings, Bezos earns about $277 million a day."

" ... when the Communications Workers of America attempted to organize Amazon call center employees, the company simply shut down the center."

" ... workers urinated in bottles out of fear of being punished for “idle time.” "

" ... people like Ezra Klein at Vox are already making it, that Sanders has gone too far this time, in emphasizing symbolism over policy specifics ...  Translated, this means: Bernie has enough poll support now that he can finally hire all the Beltway bullshit artists who spent the last 40 years turning the Democratic Party into a subsidiary of the Chamber of Commerce."

"Can we finally start calling these people the names they deserve?"

Sing it, Matt.

https://www.rollingstone.com/politics/politics-news/bernie-sanders-amazon-bezos-725282/


sidd
Title: Re: The Media: Examples of Good AND Bad Journalism
Post by: johnm33 on September 23, 2018, 12:07:26 PM
I experience the msm as an unrelenting stream of bullshit, have done so for over twenty years. It gives no insight, taken at face value, into what's unfolding. What it does do and does very well is to frame everything in such a way that one would assume that the ptb have our best interests at heart, looking around it's pretty obvious that nothing could be further from the truth. That driven assumption though has a controlling effect on the general mind-set of the prey, us. Very few 'reporters' are even aware that they promulgate nonsense, being caught up in their own bs.
 There are some reporters who give an honest accounting, thank goodness, John Pilger is one such, here he gives us his take on the UKs media. https://consortiumnews.com/2018/09/19/hold-the-front-page-the-reporters-are-missing/
Title: Re: The Media: Examples of Good AND Bad Journalism
Post by: sidd on September 23, 2018, 09:11:58 PM
Greenwald review of Moore's latest:

"This now-dominant framework misleads people into the nationalistic myth – at once both frightening and comforting – that prior to 2016’s “Fahrenheit 11/9,” the U.S., though quite imperfect and saddled with “flaws,” was nonetheless a fundamentally kind, benevolent, equitable and healthy democracy, "

" ... voter apathy arises when people conclude that their votes don’t change their lives, that election outcomes improve nothing ..."

" white and African-American working-class voters in Milwaukee who refused to vote and – even knowing that Trump won Wisconsin, and thus the presidency, largely because of their decision – don’t regret it. “Milwaukee is tired. Both of them were terrible. They never do anything for us anyway,” "

“When President Obama came here,” an African-American community leader in Flint tells Moore, “he was my President. When he left, he wasn’t.”

"Hillary lost Michigan because, as in Wisconsin, voters, in part after seeing what Obama did in Flint, concluded it was no longer worth voting. "

"The worst thing that President Obama did was pave the way for Donald Trump. "

" the misery, deprivation, and repression that drove so many people – for good reason – away from the political establishment and into the arms of anyone promising to destroy it "

" The villains of Flint and West Virginia are two Republican governors. But their accomplices, every step of the way, are Democrats. This, Moore ultimately argues, is precisely why people had lost faith in the ability of elections generally, and the Democratic Party specifically, to improve their lives."

" it becomes easier and easier to understand why Americans are either receptive to anyone vowing to dismantle rather than uphold the system they have rightly come to despise, or just abstain altogether. And it becomes even easier to understand why the guardians of that system view Trump as the most valuable weapon they could have ever imagined wielding: one that allows them to direct everyone’s attention away from the systemic damage they have wrought for decades."

"Embedded in the instruction of those who want to you focus exclusively on Trump is an insidious and toxic message: namely, removing Trump will cure, or at least mitigate, the acute threats he poses. "

https://theintercept.com/2018/09/21/michael-moores-fahrenheit-119-aims-not-at-trump-but-at-those-who-created-the-conditions-that-led-to-his-rise/

sidd
Title: Re: The Media: Examples of Good AND Bad Journalism
Post by: sidd on September 24, 2018, 07:54:16 AM
Why we can't have nice things. They stole all the money.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=np_ylvc8Zj8

One hour, eighteen minutes. Slightly repetitive, but very worth watching.

sidd



Title: Re: The Media: Examples of Good AND Bad Journalism
Post by: Rob Dekker on September 25, 2018, 06:02:55 AM
I reposted this comment here from the "Russia" thread, since it is about the "open source" journalism revolution, and not specific to Russia. Applies to ANY other subject that Bellingcat discussed (chemical weapons use in Syria, Drug cartels in Mexico, corruption in Ukraine, Scottish Limited Partnerships and money laundering, US weapons use in Yemen etc etc) or any other subject where we can use evidence that is openly available for anyone to check.

Quote
As the founder of a forum which prides itself on scientific thinking and evidence based reasoning you  should ENCOURAGE efforts like Bellingcat and open source journalism, instead of actively smearing Eliot Higgins and allowing these threads to turn into a fact-free Russian propaganda outlet.

I don't know what this forum prides itself on, but I actually do encourage independent, alternative journalism. Which brings me back to my problem with Bellingcat: The driving forces behind them associate themselves with neocon, war-mongering, fracking-pushing think tanks.

In principle, an initiative like Bellingcat is fantastic. In practice, people like Higgins and Toler screw it up by being so openly biased. If this weren't so, I wouldn't even pay attention to it, but to me this looks like a ploy by TPTB to circumvent the distrust people have for mainstream media (rightfully so). If it isn't some form of astroturfing, it's very close to it.

The bolded parts are witness of an extremely biased opinion on your part.
I truly do not understand your problem with Bellingcat and Eliot Higgins in particular.

For example, without Bellingcat's fact-checking work, we would know virtually nothing about MH17, and Russian lies and conspiracy theories (amplified by the propornot.com web sites) about this atrocity would have dominated on internet for years.

There is a peaceful and truth-finding open-source journalism revolution going on, and you are actively fighting against it. Why, Neven ? Why ?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mozxTk3Brqw
Title: Re: The Media: Examples of Good AND Bad Journalism
Post by: Rob Dekker on September 25, 2018, 09:06:19 AM
An example of how open source journalism pointed out the assassins of a number of women and children in Cameroon :

https://www.cjr.org/hit_or_miss/a-master-class-in-how-to-verify-a-video-using-digital-tools.php

Quote
The reporters started with the mountain range that can be seen in the background of the video. A source in Cameroon told the BBC team the ridge looked similar to one in the northern part of the country, and using Google Earth footage of that area they were able to confirm that it matched the location—a town close to the Nigerian border, where Cameroonian soldiers have been fighting the jihadist group Boko Haram. The BBC reporters also matched trees, roads, and buildings in the area to those appearing on Google Earth. And they were also able to pinpoint the time: A building in the video has walls, but the same building on Google Earth has no walls until November of 2014, meaning the shootings must have taken place after that.

and

Quote
Another building in the area that was demolished after February of 2016 allowed the team to further pinpoint the time range, and looked at the shadows cast by the soldiers allowed them to narrow it ever further, to between March 20 and April 5, 2015. The BBC team also managed to confirm that—contrary to the Cameroonian government’s denials—the weapons used in the video (Serbian-made Zastava M21 rifles) are used by some of the Cameroonian army, and images posted to Facebook of soldiers in the region showed that they do in fact wear the kind of camouflage pattern that the killers in the video do.

and

Quote
After weeks of denying that the video showed members of the Cameroonian army, the government changed its tune in August and announced that seven members of the military had been arrested and were under investigation for the killings. Although the BBC investigation didn’t cause the government to change its mind, the fact that it was able to prove that specific soldiers were involved, in such a comprehensive and detailed way, is an inspiring use of digital journalism, and could help convict them.
Title: Re: The Media: Examples of Good AND Bad Journalism
Post by: jacksmith4tx on September 25, 2018, 02:52:51 PM
Maybe Neven can comment on this development.

https://www.politico.eu/blogs/on-media/2018/09/austria-press-interior-ministry-lists-critical-media/
Quote
Austria’s interior ministry lists ‘critical media’

An email sent to the police accused several domestic media of ‘one-sided and negative reporting.’

A four-page email sent to the police includes a list of “critical media” — specifically naming Falter, Der Standard and Kurier — which, according to the ministry, “have unfortunately (…) operated a very one-sided and negative coverage of the interior ministry and the police.”

The mail, seen by some of the media under attack, including Der Standard, suggests “minimizing the communication with those media” as far as legally possible, and urges against “enabling exclusive coverage.”
Austria’s interior ministry, headed by the right-wing Freedom Party (FPÖ), has accused several domestic media of “one-sided and negative” reporting, and advised the police which media to talk to and how to communicate with them.

The mail, sent under the name of interior ministry spokesman Christoph Pölzl, also lists media “that are willing to cooperate” and approves talking points such as migration.

Seems to be a real shift to the right in Europe these days.

I visited Austria back in 2001. A beautiful country with some amazing architecture. Especially some of those churches and castles. My father was a POW at Stalag XVII so I had to make a side trip to see it too. Nothing there now but a few small monuments and sculptures to the thousands of Russians who died there.
Title: Re: The Media: Examples of Good AND Bad Journalism
Post by: Rob Dekker on September 27, 2018, 06:09:44 AM
Maybe Neven can comment on this development.

https://www.politico.eu/blogs/on-media/2018/09/austria-press-interior-ministry-lists-critical-media/
Quote
Austria’s interior ministry lists ‘critical media’

An email sent to the police accused several domestic media of ‘one-sided and negative reporting.’

A four-page email sent to the police includes a list of “critical media” — specifically naming Falter, Der Standard and Kurier — which, according to the ministry, “have unfortunately (…) operated a very one-sided and negative coverage of the interior ministry and the police.”

The mail, seen by some of the media under attack, including Der Standard, suggests “minimizing the communication with those media” as far as legally possible, and urges against “enabling exclusive coverage.”
Austria’s interior ministry, headed by the right-wing Freedom Party (FPÖ), has accused several domestic media of “one-sided and negative” reporting, and advised the police which media to talk to and how to communicate with them.

The mail, sent under the name of interior ministry spokesman Christoph Pölzl, also lists media “that are willing to cooperate” and approves talking points such as migration.

Seems to be a real shift to the right in Europe these days.

It sure does. And this shift to the right in Austria is concerning.

Neven has not said much about it, other than proposing some policies (which he attributes to an unnamed small left wing party) that seems to be in line with the FPÖ :
https://forum.arctic-sea-ice.net/index.php/topic,1974.msg148015.html#msg148015

Note that the FPÖ is openly supported by Russia, as for example in this deal signed with Putin's party back in 2016 :

https://www.nytimes.com/2016/12/19/world/europe/austrias-far-right-signs-a-cooperation-pact-with-putins-party.html

Apparently, collusion with a foreign government is no problem in Austria.
Title: Re: The Media: Examples of Good AND Bad Journalism
Post by: sidd on September 27, 2018, 07:09:22 AM
Exposure of Israel lobby in USA suppressed. But it leaked. Wonder if it's on piratebay/bittorrent yet.

https://www.counterpunch.org/2018/09/03/the-truths-that-wont-be-told-how-israel-spies-on-us-citizens/

The exposure of the Israel lobby in the UK is quite good too,

https://www.aljazeera.com/investigations/thelobby/

sidd
Title: Re: The Media: Examples of Good AND Bad Journalism
Post by: sidd on September 28, 2018, 02:01:04 AM
Assange steps down as Wikileaks editor, will remain publisher:

https://wikileaks.org/Statement-Julian-Assange.html

sidd
Title: Re: The Media: Examples of Good AND Bad Journalism
Post by: Rob Dekker on September 29, 2018, 09:58:42 AM
Russia's propaganda machine is sputtering :

https://www.cbc.ca/news/world/skripal-poisoning-russia-spies-1.4833212

Ever since the British government identified Alexander Petrov and Ruslan Boshirov as the suspects in the March poisoning of Sergei and Yulia Skripal, the Russian government and its state TV messengers have been scrambling to find counter-narratives to disparage and cast doubt on the investigation.

In a widely mocked interview a week ago with Kremlin-linked broadcaster RT, Petrov and Boshirov offered up an implausible story that they are vitamin salesmen who simply travel a lot. They claimed they were drawn to Salisbury to see its cathedral, and that is why they were in the city the day of the Skripal poisoning.

Independent Kremlin-watchers say that the men's explanations are so laughable that Putin's officials have barely tried to back them up.

Russia's explanation of the poisoning "was a major disaster," said Alexander Vassiliev, a former KGB agent and now London-based espionage historian who has tracked Russia's security services for decades. "The propaganda machine is not working. It's mistake after mistake."
Title: Re: The Media: Examples of Good AND Bad Journalism
Post by: Rob Dekker on October 10, 2018, 05:54:42 AM
Online Fact-Finding and the Future of Journalism


Journalism, law, and human rights advocacy in the 21st century are ever-more dependent on online fact-finding and analysis—each upended by fundamental changes in technology that have hastened the flow of information and misinformation. And yet the craft and practice of accessing, parsing, and analyzing legitimate facts and data online is still in its infancy and quickly evolving. The UK-based Bellingcat is a pioneer in this field. Bellingcat’s Christiaan Triebert joins the School of Journalism’s Edward Wasserman and the Human Rights Center’s Alexa Koenig and Félim McMahon to discuss the potential and perils that lie ahead for open source investigations. Bellingcat and the Human Rights Center’s Investigations Lab’s groundbreaking research into war crimes and covert government activities are exposing and documenting war crimes and human rights atrocities in ways never before possible and lighting the path for the new generation of journalists, lawyers, advocates, and investigators.

https://journalism.berkeley.edu/event/online-fact-finding-and-the-future-of-journalism/
Title: Re: The Media: Examples of Good AND Bad Journalism
Post by: mostly_lurking on October 11, 2018, 09:19:41 AM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fh7-D1daJEg

"CNN's Bakari Sellers: 'Kanye West Is What Happens When Negroes Don't Read'"

Ok, so he said it... but the laughter from the others? Give me a break. This shouldn't be the level of CNN
Title: Re: The Media: Examples of Good AND Bad Journalism
Post by: TerryM on October 11, 2018, 09:20:07 PM
It does however help to explain the viewership level of CNN.
Terry
Title: Re: The Media: Examples of Good AND Bad Journalism
Post by: sidd on October 11, 2018, 10:48:26 PM
wsws points out that the NYT fired Schanberg (of Killing Fields fame) in 1985 for exposing a Trump scam:

http://www.wsws.org/en/articles/2018/10/11/time-o11.html

sidd
Title: Re: The Media: Examples of Good AND Bad Journalism
Post by: TerryM on October 13, 2018, 06:33:53 PM
Facebook is apparently intent on following Myspace into whichever level of virtual hell is reserved for dead social media platforms.

https://medium.com/@caityjohnstone/facebook-twitter-purge-more-dissident-media-pages-in-latest-escalation-5eeebb39e25e

Blocking access to sites advocating for the legalization of marijuana, and against police brutality, may not be as popular as blocking pro Russian & pro Iranian sites.

https://medium.com/@caityjohnstone/facebook-twitter-purge-more-dissident-media-pages-in-latest-escalation-5eeebb39e25e

Twitter an Google are also involved in this censorship, so I think I'll be searching with gogoduck for a while.

Thank heaven this site isn't involved in spreading information that the US gov. might find "inconvenient". ::)
Terry
Title: Re: The Media: Examples of Good AND Bad Journalism
Post by: Neven on October 14, 2018, 10:36:29 PM
Via Caitlin Johnstone (https://caitlinjohnstone.com/2018/10/13/internet-censorship-just-took-an-unprecedented-leap-forward-and-hardly-anyone-noticed/) and the World Socialist Website (http://www.wsws.org/en/articles/2018/10/05/pers-o05.html) (while they're still around), a peek into the Atlantic Council ideology:

Quote
Enter the social media companies. The best mechanism for suppressing oppositional viewpoints and promoting pro-government narratives is the private sector, in particular “technology giants, including Facebook, Google, YouTube, and Twitter,” which can “determine what people see and do not see.”

Watts adds, “Fortunately, shifts in the policies of social media platforms such as Facebook have had significant impact on the type and quality of the content that is broadcast.”

The private sector, therefore, must do the dirty work of the government, because government propaganda is viewed with suspicion by the population. “Business and the private sector may not naturally understand the role they play in combating disinformation, but theirs is one of the most important…. In the West at least, they have been thrust into a central role due to the general public’s increased trust in them as institutions.”

But this is only the beginning. Online newspapers should “consider disabling commentary systems—the function of allowing the general public to leave comments beneath a particular media item,” while social media companies should “use a grading system akin to that used to rate the cleanliness of restaurants” to rate their users’ political statements.

Strong-arm tactics still have a role, of course. Citing the example of WikiLeaks editor Julian Assange, Watts declares that “governments need to create consequences” for spreading “disinformation” similar to those meted out for “state espionage” – which can carry the death penalty.

What Watts outlines in his document is a vision of a totalitarian social order, where the government, the media, and technology companies are united in suppressing oppositional viewpoints.

The most striking element of the document, however, is that it is not describing the future, but contemporary reality. Everything is in the present tense. The machinery of mass censorship has already been built.

Scary stuff... What's the point of even discussing good and bad journalism, if these things happen all around the web, as we speak?

If I don't go along with establishment narratives and oppose war, will at some point this forum be closed down as well? Or maybe even the blog? Probably not anytime soon, but all it takes, is a tweaked algorithm.
Title: Re: The Media: Examples of Good AND Bad Journalism
Post by: sidd on October 14, 2018, 11:34:51 PM
I think i have asked about a Tor gateway for this forum before, to alleviate this particular threat. threat.

https://forum.arctic-sea-ice.net/index.php/topic,2319.msg155319.html#msg155319

sidd
Title: Re: The Media: Examples of Good AND Bad Journalism
Post by: TerryM on October 15, 2018, 05:47:48 PM
He's Back!


https://www.blacklistednews.com/article/68783/wikileaks-founder-julian-assange-is-back-online-after-7month-communications.html

The world's preeminent dispenser of truth's microphone has been turned back on!
Ecuador's most famous visitor will once again be heard!

Free Julian = Free Speech
Terry
Title: Re: The Media: Examples of Good AND Bad Journalism
Post by: colchonero on October 15, 2018, 07:28:28 PM
Ben Shapiro Retweeted

Jeremy Boreing

 
@JeremyDBoreing
 34m34 minutes ago
More
That @SenWarren had the confidence to release a document saying that she MIGHT be 1/1024 Native American knowing that the media would treat it as a victory tells you everything you need to know about everything.
56 replies 724 retweets 2,213 likes



Idk how to post a tweet so I just fully copied it. Sorry for that.

This is exactly what many Americans think about the media, not on this issue only, but the behavior of the media in general. For many of us (excluding base voters) it's not about bashing Trump (Fox defends him on some stupid issues too, for no other than political reasons), but about looking at every single thing from their own perspective (bias), that they have chosen prior to everything. Those titles and texts would have been the same, regardless if it has shown 100% native blood, or 1/5000th native ancestry. Which is madness.

"The White American average genetic makeup is 98.6% European, 0.19% African, and 0.18% Native American. " She might have less Native ancestry than the average White American citizen, so basically every white guy can claim the same. My head is exploding.

And then when some issue comes where for example CNN is spot on, many won't believe it anyway, cause of the way of handling issues like this one on Warren's ancestry.



You can be Idk let's say Breitbart or Buddy (nothing against you, just a good example)  and you write titles in this manner, that is totally fine. They never claimed to be bipartisan, and nobody thinks that of them. But if you are big media house, and you call yourself unbiased, fair and objective, stop with these texts, and (re)gain some respect from average citizens damn it!!


BTW, I know it might be between 1/32 and 1/512 or 1/1024 whatever. Also, I know it is not necessarily native ancestry, but it also might be. It is either Peruvian, Colombian or Mexican. But none of that is the point.
Title: Re: The Media: Examples of Good AND Bad Journalism
Post by: TerryM on October 17, 2018, 06:09:31 PM
U-Tube goes silent as it silences dissenters.

http://planetfreewill.com/big-tech-greatest-bait-and-switch-in-american-history-free-speech/

https://downdetector.com/status/youtube/map/

Last night U-Tube went off the air. Thank FSM that it wasn't the banking system, the military, or even large squads of self driving taxis.

With all of Google's resources, security & mirror sites the fact that they could be grounded for such an extended period is hard to understand. Could they have closed down some entity that had the know how and power to pull this off - or was this simply a case of bad programming.

I'm not sure which is the scarier prospect.
Terry
Title: Re: The Media: Examples of Good AND Bad Journalism
Post by: sidd on October 17, 2018, 10:31:48 PM
Sjursen on western media indifference to Gaza killings:

"At least 40 children have been killed, along with women, old folks ..."

"Which gets back to the US media (or really entertainment) industry. You hardly hear about any of this ... "

"you know who doesn’t forget? Global Muslims. "

"when we are attacked, we’ll revert to our usual cry: "Why do they hate us?"

I can think of a few reasons."

https://original.antiwar.com/Danny_Sjursen/2018/10/15/gaza-the-least-reported-most-important-story-not-covered-in-the-msm/

sidd
Title: Re: The Media: Examples of Good AND Bad Journalism
Post by: sidd on October 18, 2018, 05:23:07 AM
Oldie but a goodie: Daud on Saud as a successful ISIS

French original:

https://www.nytimes.com/2015/11/21/opinion/larabie-saoudite-un-daesh-qui-a-reussi.html

english translation by John Cullen

https://www.nytimes.com/2015/11/21/opinion/saudi-arabia-an-isis-that-has-made-it.html

I warn that the English translation omits at least one sentence. If it is included, the penultimate para  should read (in my translation)

"Daesh has a mother: the invasion of Iraq. But it also has a father: Saudi Arabia and its ideological industry. If western intervention gave reasons to the desperate of the Arab world, the Saud royals gave them beliefs and convictions. Unless that is understood the war is lost though battles are won. Dead jihadis will reincarnate in future generations and feed on the same books."

I must say, I prefer the French original.

sidd
Title: Re: The Media: Examples of Good AND Bad Journalism
Post by: Red on October 20, 2018, 09:03:42 PM
The western media is mostly a puppet show it would seem. The Atlantic Counsel seems to have the situation under control.

https://www.greanvillepost.com/2018/10/20/boycott-facebook-twitter-and-google-heres-why/

NATO — the neoconservatives, the marketeers for firms such as Lockheed Martin and BAE — has taken over the social-media giants and much of online international ‘news’-reporting, including that of virtually all independent news-sites and blogs.

Facebook, Twitter, and Google, in recent days, delivered what might be the death-blows.

NATO’s main PR agency, think-tank, and lobbying organization, is ‘non-profit’ — a legal tax-dodge that’s financed by donations from those weapons-making firms and their supporting firms and their ‘non-profits’, so that the taxes that it doesn’t pay will need to be paid instead by the general public. Billionaires know how to avoid taxes, and they hire politicians who write the laws with all the ‘right’ loopholes for them — and only for the very richest — to use. This PR agency is called “The Atlantic Council,” and it was set up in 1961, the exact same year that U.S. President Dwight Eisenhower left office warning that “the military-industrial complex” might take control of the U.S. Well, it did so, with The Atlantic Council’s help; and, now, it is finally lowering the boom against democracy itself — at least among the U.S. and its allied nations (the governments whose weapons-manufacturing firms are in, and sell to, NATO governments). The aim is to drive up the percentage of government-expenditures there that go to pay those firms, and so to reduce the percentages that go to pay everything else. The aim, in short, is the permanent-warfare-economy. After all, firms such as Lockheed Martin and BAE sell only to allied governments. They have virtually no consumers except those governments. So: their (and their ‘charities’) basic message is ‘austerity’ — except on ‘defense’ or realistically called “aggression.” This is national ‘defense’ such as against Iraq in 2003, and against Libya in 2011 — it is instead sheer aggression. George Orwell predicted “Newspeak” — well, here it is. It’s today’s norm, so normal that the public think it’s just natural, and conservatives and even many liberals think it’s the way that ‘a free market’ ought to be.
Title: Re: The Media: Examples of Good AND Bad Journalism
Post by: Red on October 20, 2018, 09:17:13 PM
https://www.greanvillepost.com/2018/10/19/be-skeptical-whenever-the-political-media-class-converges-on-a-single-narrative/
The Trump administration has ended its weeks-long silence on the disappearance of the Saudi Arabian Washington Post journalist Jamal Khashoggi. Following a briefing from Secretary of State Pompeo who has just returned from a visit to Riyadh and Ankara, the president has said that contrary to some hopeful speculation that had emerged early on after his disappearance, Khashoggi does indeed appear to have been killed at the Saudi consulate in Istanbul. If it is determined that the Saudis were responsible, Trump warned that there will be “very severe” consequences. Secretary of the Treasury Steve Mnuchin has announced that he will not be attending the Future Investment Initiative summit in Riyadh next week.
Title: Re: The Media: Examples of Good AND Bad Journalism
Post by: Red on October 20, 2018, 09:39:27 PM
Obviously there are a number of reasons for the left’s failure to develop a significant media presence, including the fact that as all politics is rooted in class interest, the richest segments of the population are always better positioned to support political currents, visible leaders, media assets, and movements that mirror their policy preferences and do their bidding. However, there are also powerful cultural and historical factors multiplying the effects of sheer money.

As an anti-intellectual, can-do kind of country, American radicals have been notorious for their culturally-implanted impatience, which explains some of their voluntarism and the propensity to see the struggle against capitalism chiefly as a series of pushbacks against urgent separate symptoms, without ever concentrating forces to eliminate the roots of the malignancy itself. This approach has consumed (and continues to consume) a great deal of grassroots activism, with most radicals often acting like a fire brigade perennially rushing out to put out the latest fires set up by the arsonist in chief, the capitalist system lodged at the very core of American society.

 This poisoned dynamic has distracted the left and created something of a self-perpetuating circle of inefficiency and defeat in political contests with the established order. Indeed the left—ridiculously undermanned and underfunded to begin with—has often acted like a general always ready to march his army into battle without first developing the tactical and strategic weapons necessary to fight and win such a war.  But when we talk about war with the criminal and essentially illegitimate corporate status quo what kind of weapons are we talking about? Not guns, for sure, certainly not at this point when the public consciousness remains badly confused and leaderless, with most disaffected folks coopted by the faux left, particularly the Democrats and their satellites, and the faux right (Trump being the current demagogic incarnation of the phenomenon.). Guns, of course can never be ruled out a priori in a revolutionary process, as they always come into play when the ruling orders jump to defend their interests by drowning the revolutionaries in their own blood. History shows two irrefutable things: One, the “Left” is born out of the accumulated crimes and abuses of the Right. Thus, the Right, the established order, is always the progenitor of the Left. If they look upon the Left as a curse and lethal threat, that’s too bad, they created it. Two, in almost all cases recorded by history, it was the established order’s heavy “pre-emptive” repression which unleashed the generalized bloodshed, and the social violence that followed.The almost total lack of a mass leftist media in the United States and even much of the developed “West” has presented the corporate order with a tactical and strategic gift of enormous proportions. For many generations now the establishment has controlled the national debate almost entirely, with the spectrum of visible opinion something of a joke, extending slightly from the center left all the way to the ultra right. The left message, banned from the normal channels of mass communications, and reaching only a minuscule segment of the population, had to survive on the margins, in an informational ghetto, where much of it still lives. During Vietnam, the antiwar message got traction due to the participation of millions of college students threatened by the draft. Still, respectable opinion never questioned the sheer immorality and criminality of that brutal and naked imperial aggression. The ethical argument was stillborn on the mainstream media. As far as the “visible left” was concerned, the critique was always about “pragmatic questions”; the war was a bad idea because it was not going well, it was draining the treasury, was causing troubles at home, or was not being managed efficiently,  a posture which obviously and ludicrously (for a “left”) begged in most cases for ways to wage the war more efficiently rather than not at all.

In any case, due to unpredictable technological consequences injected by the birth and growth of the Internet, the power of this gift may be coming to an end as the leftist narrative makes inroads into the mass consciousness and the system managers themselves commit so many crimes and blunders that the whole order begins to crumble from within.

In the immediate sense, however, we remain largely stuck with a grotesque imbalance of media power whose consequences are both ugly and terrifying. The world is in a mortal crisis, literally looking into the abyss, and the main cause is the toxification of the human mind to the point of incapacitation by the systematic and deliberate negation of truth. The purpose of this  imposture is for the sole benefit of a puny and disgustingly privileged segment of society whose greed and sociopathy know no limits. In this context, American democracy, always far more illusory than real, has disintegrated to the point that only a few symbolic tatters remain, revealing what was always there, the ruthless face and ubiquitous power of the native and international plutocracy.

The search for a tactical solution

Since this global plutocracy, with its citadel in the United States, has enjoyed for a very long time the most formidable arsenal of weapons ever seen in history to maintain itself in power, it is a bit romantic to think it can be overcome by sheer force. However this simple fact should not lead us to believe the task is impossible. The biggest defensive tool of the criminal status quo, its main pillar, is not so much the brute muscle of the police or military, which anyone can see is quite overwhelming, but the enormous machinery of propaganda they are compelled to use to deform reality 24/7 in order to legitimate their rule in the name of a non-existent democracy.

It is this huge contradiction—this explosive truth— that constitutes the “Achilles heel” of the plutocracy, and, make no mistake about it, they are very much aware of it and already taking every measure they can to suppress it—without showing too much their real fascistic face.  So, just like we are in race to save the planet from further assaults and stave off collapse, we are also engaged in a different and even more encompassing race and critical race, a race in which our gains in consciousness liberation must always outpace the obfuscating responses of the status quo. It’s a battle of communications we can’t afford to lose. Only success in this race can give humanity a fighting chance to reconstruct and liberate itself from the global cancer of endless war and immiseration at the hands of capitalism. And hopefully attend in earnest fashion to the many problems created by this very same class in connection with nature itself.

Conclusions

Corporate power has amassed an awesome apparatus of repression and manipulation. But, believe me, they need it, because neither truth nor reality can be denied forever. Truth and reality, and I should say, justice and true kindness are on our side. And these are powerful things. The enemy can offer shabby, increasingly ludicrous imitations and simulacra of these virtues but never the real article, for if they did that they would stop being what they are, they would be committing suicide.

And besides truth and reality, the real left—at last—while still mired in almost total irrelevancy, seems to be sprouting the kind of people truly able to lead and wage these struggles. These words, which are no hyperbole, are inspired by the emergence, practically out of nowhere, of people like Caitlin Johnstone, a brilliant, and tactically gifted young woman who has already done much to change the equation. Caitlin, like our equally young collaborator Caleb Maupin, are both revolutionary communicators. Their arrival on the scene is literally a breath of fresh air for the still standing old guard, whose sacrifices, often over lifetimes of activism, remain real, valuable and mostly anonymous. Our task is clear: the mass mind has to be liberated, the people mobilized. Only then, by actualizing the potential of the left message will we create a true resistance to this infernal system and eventually win. In this struggle, Caitlin Johnstone has summed up the main tactic in a simple sentence: “…the single best way to take down the oligarchy is by aggressively and relentlessly attacking its propaganda engine.”

Let us all concentrate fire on that.

—PG
https://www.greanvillepost.com/media-front/
Title: Re: The Media: Examples of Good AND Bad Journalism
Post by: sidd on October 20, 2018, 10:24:46 PM
Ford at blackagendareport on the muzzling of Black voices by the media:

Facebook bans " the anti-police lawlessness pages Cop Block, Filming Cops, The Free Thought Project and Police the Police"

"These pages are “inauthentic,” Facebook claims ..."

He traces this to the 2016 election, but i do not think he would disagree with the proposition that the roots are far older :

" This crisis of legitimacy for the ruling class and its media organs became acute in 2016, when the wildly unpredictable Donald Trump seemed to threaten the gentlemen’s agreement between the two corporate parties on regime change warfare and so-called free trade. Barely a week after Trump’s surprise victory at the polls, outgoing President Barack Obama, on a visit with German Chancellor Angela Merkel, called for the imposition of a standardized version of truth."

"The “danger” was not to democracy, but to the legitimacy of the corporate rule."

"Google has rigged its algorithms to hide blacklisted sites during web searches, resulting in decreased visitation of up to 75 percent. They are strangling the Left, including Black Agenda Report."

"Facebook has signed on to the new Cold War ...  “We’re excited to launch a new partnership with the Atlantic Council ..." Facebook has outsourced its censorship project to the Deep State."

"What Facebook is attempting to enforce is the absolute authority of the corporate media as the arbiter of Truth -- a dictatorship of the white moneyed classes. And that can never be in Black folks’ interest."

https://blackagendareport.com/facebook-not-your-friend

sidd
Title: Re: The Media: Examples of Good AND Bad Journalism
Post by: sidd on October 20, 2018, 10:31:19 PM
Damon at wsws on censorship, power, and revolution:

"What upsets the Times is that American companies, and Google in particular, are not tailoring all their actions according to the geopolitical interests of American imperialism."

"In other words, the Times, speaking for the US intelligence apparatus, wants to have its cake and eat it too. It wants US technology companies to censor domestic political opposition in the name of preventing “foreign interference.” But it also wants those same companies to reject overtures by foreign governments to prevent “interference” by the Americans ..."

"The Times, and the American ruling elite for which it speaks, wants to keep the internet “global” only insofar as its rules are written in the United States, insofar as the American ruling class can control the narrative. That other states and other ruling elites are moving to implement their own rules and restrictions, bound up with their own domestic and geopolitical interests, it considers intolerable."

" ... vast troves of information are now available to workers and youth all over the world.

This development terrifies the capitalist ruling elites. The American ruling class, in particular, is fighting a two-front war. It wants to pressure the giant US-based social media and internet companies to suppress domestic opposition, while at the same time undercutting the efforts of its competitors and adversaries, whether in China or in Europe, to establish their own mechanisms of control."

"The struggle against censorship is the struggle to defend the social, cultural and technological achievements of mankind. It is inextricably connected to the fight against war, inequality and authoritarianism.

It is, in short, a revolutionary question. The international working class must respond to the two-front war of the capitalist ruling elites with a one-front war against the capitalist system itself."

http://www.wsws.org/en/articles/2018/10/17/pers-o17.html

sidd
Title: Re: The Media: Examples of Good AND Bad Journalism
Post by: Rob Dekker on October 21, 2018, 08:32:23 AM
Saudi Arabia claims about Khashoggi:

He's not dead, he left the consulate we have evidence

OK, he has disappeared

OK, he may be dead

OK, he's dead but we didn't do it

OK, he's dead, but it was a rogue group who worked for us

OK he's dead and we did it, but it was only because a 1 vs. 15 fist fight broke out...

and we just happened to have a bone saw handy...
Title: Re: The Media: Examples of Good AND Bad Journalism
Post by: Rob Dekker on October 23, 2018, 07:06:38 AM
The Saudis actually let a "double" of Jamal Khashoggi walk out of the Saudi Embassy.

With identical clothes (did he actually put on the dead Khashoggi's clothes?), but different shoes. And then the hair ! If Khashoggi's murder by the Saudis were not so gruesome, this would be hilarious.

(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DqGyoDZX4AABBgw.jpg)

These Saudi "intelligence" officers make the Russian GRU officers Chepiga and Mishkin in the Skripal case look like professionals.
Title: Re: The Media: Examples of Good AND Bad Journalism
Post by: Red on October 24, 2018, 11:39:48 AM
 Possibly another news source?     SAMIZDAT
                                             
About: In the Russian language, Samizdat literally means “self-publishing”. But the term is most associated with the reproduction of censored content, usually passed by hand, in the old Communist bloc.

This project is an attempt to link users to the most important and interesting stories across the English-speaking web, which are either undervalued or ignored by the mainstream.

Once upon a time, editors valued alternative voices to stimulate debate and attract readers and viewers, but today the corporate media has become a homogenous space with little difference between outlets that push the same message. The contemporary equivalents of Noam Chomsky and John Pilger are stuck on the fringes, as journalists and commentators are chosen for their ability to toe the line, and stay on message. Predictably, groupthink has taken hold and inquiring minds are not welcome.

The internet was supposed to bring a new era of free access to information, and bloggers and “citizen journalists” were heralded as the architects of a utopian future. But that dream died. And today, Facebook, the world’s largest and most influential social network, has hired NATO-linked censors to pass judgement on whether news is legitimate or inadmissible.

Vested interests – whether they be militarist, as in that case, or governmental or corporate – evaluating whether content passes muster means only one thing: we are clearly at the edge of a slippery slope.

While New Samizdat is sponsored by RT, it is not a political creation. Russia is generally misrepresented by the mainstream media and people here understand why it’s crucial to oppose groupthink. New Samizdat has no specific agenda. We will post the most interesting links, across all spectrums, with the intention of stimulating debate and providing access to information.

Check for yourself.
https://www.newsamizdat.com/about
Title: Re: The Media: Examples of Good AND Bad Journalism
Post by: Red on October 24, 2018, 11:47:20 AM
https://www.greanvillepost.com/2018/10/23/western-media-attacks-critics-of-the-white-helmets/


Across the West, establishment apologists are being mobilised to defend the White Helmets. The horrendous suffering of Syria is of no import to these mercenaries.

Introduction

The October 16 issue of NY Review of Books has an article by Janine di Giovani titled “Why Assad and Russia Target the White Helmets”. The article exemplifies how western media promotes the White Helmets uncritically and attacks those who challenge the myth.
Title: Re: The Media: Examples of Good AND Bad Journalism
Post by: mostly_lurking on October 24, 2018, 12:37:20 PM
https://www.greanvillepost.com/2018/10/23/western-media-attacks-critics-of-the-white-helmets/


Across the West, establishment apologists are being mobilised to defend the White Helmets. The horrendous suffering of Syria is of no import to these mercenaries.



We had a few discussions here on the "White Helmet" subject and the majority thinks they are saints. >:(
Title: Re: The Media: Examples of Good AND Bad Journalism
Post by: sidd on October 25, 2018, 06:24:20 AM
Glen Ford over at the blackagendareport reviews (and excoriates) a new study, but has more cogent things to say about the Great Unblackening:

"Race works like a charm for making white folks forget about class in the United States, which is why the moneyed classes have constructed a duopoly electoral system that gathers the most racist whites in one party, while Blacks and other despised peoples are corralled in the other corporate party -- with both parties supporting global U.S. empire and warfare. Class has been effectively suppressed, except as racialized euphemisms and code words of American politics: “middle class,” meaning “hard working, salt-of-the-earth, patriotic white folks,” versus “the underclass,” signifying “predatory” and criminal Blacks and other darker people, who need to be kept under surveillance and containment."

" Race must be erased as a demographic marker, along with class, on the theory that if you don’t recognize racial and class conflicts, they will disappear."

"The More in Common brand of race-less and classless social science, which claims to more accurately describe Americans’ political views “than by referring to their visible traits such as race, gender or income,” is a perfect tool for corporate consensus-makers. The rulers won’t have to do anything for anybody, because real demographics cease to exist."

"Corporate pollsters have already largely disappeared the Black demographic from their surveys, which nowadays often neglect to break down public opinion by race. Some surveys even lump all “minorities” together, despite the fact that Hispanic opinion is most often somewhere near middle of the chasm that separates whites and Blacks."

Read the whole thing:

https://blackagendareport.com/great-un-blackening-corporate-project-erase-black-people-politics

sidd
Title: Re: The Media: Examples of Good AND Bad Journalism
Post by: Rob Dekker on October 25, 2018, 10:53:20 AM
https://blackagendareport.com/great-un-blackening-corporate-project-erase-black-people-politics

sidd

Sidd, blackagendareport.com is listed on the propornot.com list for repeatedly venting Russian propaganda :

http://www.propornot.com/p/the-list.html

For example, they fail the MH17 test miserably. Here :
https://blackagendareport.com/content/freedom-rider-causes-world-war-iii
they state :
Quote
Malaysian airlines flight MH17 may be the Lusitania of the modern era. Had the West not caused conflict on Russia’s doorstep the incident would not have taken place but the propagandists are hard at work evading responsibility and assigning blame they ought to share.

Why are you spreading such obvious Russian propaganda on this fine forum, sidd ?
And this is like the fifth time I have to point it out.

Why, sidd ?
Why are you doing this ?
What's in it for you ?
Are you getting paid by these propornot.com web sites ?
If not, why do you continue to repeatedly post links to these Russian propaganda outlets ?

Please give me a plausible reason why you keep on promoting these Russian propaganda sites.

[edit] and 'Red', please stop posting from greanvillepost.com. It's a known Russian propaganda outlet. It's on propornot.com for a reason. For example, it calls MH17 a "False Flag, One of Many". Don't let me link to that post, since I don't want to promote conspiracy theories.
Title: Re: The Media: Examples of Good AND Bad Journalism
Post by: Red on October 25, 2018, 11:19:19 AM
Excerpt:
Economic expert and journalist Dr. Paul Craig Roberts says the ideas of the elite are awful, and they want to suppress free speech to get their policies instituted. Dr. Roberts explains, “The agendas of the elite are hidden. They are not something the American people would support. The elite are fearful that their cover stories are so thin that if truth can be shown on their agendas, they will be discredited. They will lose their abilities to impose their agendas. So, they are closing down truth tellers in order to maintain control over explanations. Alex Jones is a threat to the elites’ control over the explanations. . . . They are sending the message that says get onboard with the official explanations or we terminate you.”

Dr. Roberts goes on to ask, “Why is this possible? It is possible because the antitrust laws of the United States have not been enforced. These are all monopolies. Monopoly is against the law. It’s against the Sherman Antitrust Act, but they don’t enforce it because they’re so powerful. They just prevent the law being enforced. Plus, they have the neo-liberal economists saying that today you have to be a monopoly to compete globally. . . . It’s a lie, but it’s a cover for having just a few people controlling information.”

https://www.greanvillepost.com/2018/10/24/elite-closing-down-truth-tellers-paul-craig-roberts/
Title: Re: The Media: Examples of Good AND Bad Journalism
Post by: Rob Dekker on October 25, 2018, 11:34:29 AM
Red, please stop posting from greanvillepost.com. It's a known Russian propaganda outlet. It's on propornot.com for a reason because it's a conspiracy theory website.

You can see that, since you do not produce ANY link to ANY factual statement.

Just opinions by Paul Craig Roberts that "ideas of the elite are awful" and claims that Alex Jones is a threat to "the elites control over the explanations"....

Sure, Red. Whatever you say.
Title: Re: The Media: Examples of Good AND Bad Journalism
Post by: Red on October 25, 2018, 11:37:32 AM
https://orientalreview.org/2018/10/24/western-media-attacks-critics-of-the-white-helmets/?utm_source=samizdat&utm_medium=partner&utm_campaign=free

Giovani’s article attacks several journalists by name. She singles out Vanessa Beeley and echoes the Guardian’s characterization of Beeley as the “high priestess of Syria propaganda”. She does this without challenging a single article or claim by the journalist. She might have acknowledged that Vanessa Beeley has some familiarity with the Middle East; she is the daughter of one of the foremost British Arabists and diplomats including British Ambassador to Egypt. Giovanni might have explored Beeley’s research in Syria that revealed the White Helmets founder (British military contractor James LeMesurier) assigned the name Syria Civil Defence despite the fact there is a real Syrian organization by that name that has existed since the 1950’s. For the past several years, Beeley has done many on-the-ground reports and investigations in Syria. None of these are challenged by Giovanni. Just days ago Beeley published a report on her visit to the White Helmets headquarters in Deraa.

Giovanni similarly dismisses another alternative journalist, Eva Bartlett. Again, Giovanni ignores the fact that Bartlett has substantial Middle East experience including having lived in Gaza for years. Instead of objectively evaluating the journalistic work of these independent journalists, Giovanni smears their work as “disinformation”. Presumably that is because their work is published at alternative sites such as 21st Century Wire and Russian media such as RT and Sputnik. Beeley and Bartlett surely would have been happy to have their reports published at the New York Review of Books, Newsweek or other mainstream outlets. But it’s evident that such reporting is not welcome there. Even Seymour Hersh had to go abroad to have his investigations on Syria published.
                                                  ---------------------
Giovanni ignores the investigations and conclusions of some of the most esteemed American journalists regarding the White Helmets and chemical weapons incidents in Syria.

The late Robert Parry published many articles exposing the White Helmets, for example The White Helmets Controversy and Syria War Propaganda at the Oscars. Parry wrote and published numerous investigations of the August 2013 chemical weapons attack and concluded the attacks were carried out by an opposition faction with the goal of pressuring the US to intervene militarily. Parry also challenged western conclusions regarding incidents such as April 4, 2017 at Khan Shaykhun. Giovanni breathlessly opens her article with this story while Parry revealed the impossibility of it being as described.

“Buried deep inside a new U.N. report is evidence that could exonerate the Syrian government in the April 4 sarin atrocity and make President Trump look like an Al-Qaeda dupe.”

Legendary American journalist, Seymour Hersh, researched and refuted the assumptions of Giovanni and the media establishment regarding the August 2013 chemical weapons attacks near Damascus. Hersh’s investigation, titled The Red Line and Rat Line, provided evidence the atrocity was carried out by an armed opposition group with active support from Turkey. A Turkish member of parliament provided additional evidence. The fact that Hersh had to go across the Atlantic to have his investigation published suggests American not Russian disinformation and censorship.

Title: Re: The Media: Examples of Good AND Bad Journalism
Post by: Rob Dekker on October 25, 2018, 11:41:57 AM
https://orientalreview.org/2018/10/24/western-media-attacks-critics-of-the-white-helmets/?utm_source=samizdat&utm_medium=partner&utm_campaign=free

Another one from the propornot.com list ?
Why ?
Are you getting paid to spread Russian propaganda ?
And if not, why are you posting it ?
Title: Re: The Media: Examples of Good AND Bad Journalism
Post by: Red on October 25, 2018, 11:44:26 AM
Red, please stop posting from greanvillepost.com. It's a known Russian propaganda outlet. It's on propornot.com for a reason because it's a conspiracy theory website.

You can see that, since you do not produce ANY link to ANY factual statement.

Just opinions by Paul Craig Roberts that "ideas of the elite are awful" and claims that Alex Jones is a threat to "the elites control over the explanations"....

Sure, Red. Whatever you say.

Rob it's just journalism man, you don't have to read it.
Title: Re: The Media: Examples of Good AND Bad Journalism
Post by: Rob Dekker on October 25, 2018, 11:52:58 AM
Red, please stop posting from greanvillepost.com. It's a known Russian propaganda outlet. It's on propornot.com for a reason because it's a conspiracy theory website.

You can see that, since you do not produce ANY link to ANY factual statement.

Just opinions by Paul Craig Roberts that "ideas of the elite are awful" and claims that Alex Jones is a threat to "the elites control over the explanations"....

Sure, Red. Whatever you say.

Rob it's just journalism man, you don't have to read it.

This is not "journalism".
It's propaganda. Plain and simple.

Why are you posting this crap ?
Title: Re: The Media: Examples of Good AND Bad Journalism
Post by: mostly_lurking on October 25, 2018, 11:54:13 AM

Another one from the propornot.com list ?


They are no different just pushing there own propaganda.
Title: Re: The Media: Examples of Good AND Bad Journalism
Post by: Red on October 25, 2018, 11:57:25 AM
From Wikipedia:

PropOrNot is a website that seeks to expose what it calls Russian propaganda and groups that use material from Russian sources. It was featured in a Washington Post article about Russian propaganda and the spread of "fake news". After receiving intense criticism, the Post added a note to the article distancing itself from the website's claims.[2] PropOrNot's methods and anonymity have received criticism from publications such as The New Yorker, Harper's, Fortune, The Intercept, and Rolling Stone.

The website is anonymously written, and purports to be the arbiter of which opinions are not acceptable and which are acceptable, by either labelling or not labelling certain expressed opinions as "propaganda"; a spokesperson for the website who spoke by phone to The New Yorker was described as an American male who was "well versed in Internet culture and swore enthusiastically." The same spokesperson said that the group comprised around 40 (unnamed, and therefore unaccountable) individuals.[3]

Compiled list[edit]
PropOrNot says there was a Russian propaganda effort involved in propagating fake news during the 2016 U.S. election.[4][5] PropOrNot has said it analyzed data from Twitter and Facebook and tracked propaganda from a disinformation campaign by Russia that had a national reach of 15 million people within the United States.[4][5] PropOrNot concluded that accounts belonging to both Russia Today and Sputnik News promoted "false and misleading stories in their reports," and additionally magnified other false articles found on the Internet to support their propaganda effort.[4]

PropOrNot published a list of websites they called "bona-fide ‘useful idiots’" of the Russian government based on methodology they called "a combination of manual and automated analysis, including analysis of content, timing, technical indicators, and other reporting".[6] The group's list included Zero Hedge, Naked Capitalism, the Ron Paul Institute, Black Agenda Report, Truthout, Truthdig, antiwar.com, and CounterPunch, although they did not provide any individual analysis to justify inclusion on the list.[6] CounterPunch in response called PropOrNot a "shady little group," its findings "bogus," and their inclusion on the list a "baseless allegation." After email communications, PropOrNot agreed to remove CounterPunch from the list.[7]

Criticism[edit]
Andrew Cockburn, Washington editor for Harper's, was sharply critical of The Washington Post's decision to put the story on its front page, calling the article a "sorry piece of trash."[1] Writers in The Intercept, Fortune, and Rolling Stone criticized The Washington Post for including a report by an organization with no reputation for fact-checking in an article on "fake news."[8][9][10] The Intercept journalists Glenn Greenwald and Ben Norton were particularly critical of the inclusion of Naked Capitalism on the list of "useful idiots" for Russian propagandists.[8]

Later, in The New Yorker, Adrian Chen said that he had been previously contacted by the organization, but had chosen not to follow up with them. Looking more carefully into their methodology, he argued that PropOrNot's criteria for establishing propaganda were so broad that they could have included "not only Russian state-controlled media organizations, such as Russia Today, but nearly every news outlet in the world, including the Post itself" on their list.[3]

Writing for Rolling Stone, Matt Taibbi questioned the methodology used by PropOrNot and the lack of information about who was behind the organization.[10]

In December 2016, The Washington Post appended an "Editor's Note" to its article in response to the criticism of PropOrNot's list of websites.[2] The note read, "The Post, which did not name any of the sites, does not itself vouch for the validity of PropOrNot's findings regarding any individual media outlet, nor did the article purport to do so."[4]


Title: Re: The Media: Examples of Good AND Bad Journalism
Post by: Rob Dekker on October 25, 2018, 12:05:16 PM
Nice school of red herrings, Red.

But you know the problem is that facts are stubborn things :

You still did not produce ANY link to ANY factual statement.

Just opinions by Paul Craig Roberts that "ideas of the elite are awful" and claims that Alex Jones is a threat to "the elites control over the explanations"....

Propornot.com was spot-on about that greanvillepost.com article :

This is not "journalism", Red.
It's propaganda. Plain and simple.

Please stop posting from greanvillepost.com. It's a known Russian propaganda outlet. It's on propornot.com for a reason. For example, it calls MH17 a "False Flag, One of Many". Don't let me link to that post, since I don't want to promote conspiracy theories.

Why are you posting this crap ?
Title: Re: The Media: Examples of Good AND Bad Journalism
Post by: NevB on October 25, 2018, 01:45:54 PM
Really are we now just one step away from having people here that support Alex Jones ?

https://news.vice.com/en_us/article/ne957b/sandy-hook-parents-are-suing-alex-jones-for-calling-the-massacre-a-giant-hoax (https://news.vice.com/en_us/article/ne957b/sandy-hook-parents-are-suing-alex-jones-for-calling-the-massacre-a-giant-hoax)

Promoter of hate, fear, despicable conspiracy theories and intolerance.

If Paul Craig Roberts's opinion is that Alex Jones is some kind of heroic defender of the truth then Paul Craig Robert's is also a good part of the reason the US is so dangerously divided as we see today.

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2018/oct/25/worst-aspect-us-attempted-pipe-bombings-inevitability (https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2018/oct/25/worst-aspect-us-attempted-pipe-bombings-inevitability)
Title: Re: The Media: Examples of Good AND Bad Journalism
Post by: mostly_lurking on October 25, 2018, 02:59:29 PM
Really are we now just one step away from having people here that support Alex Jones ?


The problem is most take Crazy Alex Jones as a symbol and right away throw anyone with a dissenting view into the same category. Yes, even Jones sometimes gets things right- it happens- and maybe someone will point  that out- but don't disregard everything that person says. Enough "conspiracy theory" has been proven right in the last years to not throw it all out in the garbage without a second look.
Title: Re: The Media: Examples of Good AND Bad Journalism
Post by: wili on October 25, 2018, 03:05:56 PM
Sounds  like you nailed it, nev!
Title: Re: The Media: Examples of Good AND Bad Journalism
Post by: Hefaistos on October 26, 2018, 06:19:44 AM
Rob, you really touch my heart with your crusade against anything written on sites that for some reason or other are on a Atlantic council/NATO list called propornot.

No, we cannot think for ourselves!
No, we aren't capable of critical analysis!
Yes, we are misled by Russian propaganda!
Yes, our souls have to be saved!

Thanks Rob! You really are our white knight.
Title: Re: The Media: Examples of Good AND Bad Journalism
Post by: Hefaistos on October 26, 2018, 09:51:58 AM
The article that found out the backers behind propornot:

" Propornot is a product of the Atlantic Council’s backers.  It is a symptom of the ongoing Information War.  People in the groups behind it are waging to destroy Press Freedom in the US by branding dissenting voices as objects of ridicule at best and enemies of the state at the worst."

https://off-guardian.org/2018/05/22/propornot-2-setting-up-the-atlantic-council-for-lawsuits/
Title: Re: The Media: Examples of Good AND Bad Journalism
Post by: Rob Dekker on October 26, 2018, 09:55:29 AM
Rob, you really touch my heart with your crusade against anything written on sites that for some reason or other are on a Atlantic council/NATO list called propornot.

No, we cannot think for ourselves!
No, we aren't capable of critical analysis!
Yes, we are misled by Russian propaganda!
Yes, our souls have to be saved!

Thanks Rob! You really are our white knight.

I would think that :

- Yes, you can think for yourself, and
- Yes, you are capable of critical analysis, and
- No, you will not be misled by Russian propaganda.

Can you do that, Hefaistos ?
For example, in this report by the Russian Ministry of Defense (MoD) :

https://youtu.be/wLBpLVwa-lM

In this report, can you think for yourself, and apply some critical analysis, and ignore the Russian propaganda, and then show us where the MoD went into conspiracy theory territory ?

Hint : I discussed the observations here :

https://forum.arctic-sea-ice.net/index.php/topic,1974.msg173899.html#msg173899

And if you still believe that the Russian MoD was truthful here, it should be easy for you to debunk my arguments.
Title: Re: The Media: Examples of Good AND Bad Journalism
Post by: Hefaistos on October 27, 2018, 07:43:02 AM
Rob, Bellingcat got those photos from their Ukrainian sources, the Russian MoD claims there is photoshopping going on in quite a few of them. I don't see that Russian MoD presents conspiracy theories, they present some facts on where the BUK that fired on MH17 was (in Ukraine) and some good criticism of a lot of photo evidence given to Bellingcat by some Ukrainians.
It's a task for the MH17 investigation to deal with these facts and informations. I hope they will do it objectively, and neutrally, and without having to yield to pressures from the Ukrainian side, as they have a veto on what's presented in the reports.

I also hope that Bellingcat will become more open and scientifically minded in the way they treat 'evidence'.
Title: Re: The Media: Examples of Good AND Bad Journalism
Post by: Rob Dekker on October 27, 2018, 08:55:41 AM
Quote
Bellingcat got those photos from their Ukrainian sources,

It is likely that Ukrainians made the videos and pictures of the MH17 BUK, because...well...it happened in Ukraine. Duh. Would be weird if a guy from Zimbabwe would post a video.

Quote
I don't see that Russian MoD presents conspiracy theories, they present some facts on where the BUK that fired on MH17 was (in Ukraine) and some good criticism of a lot of photo evidence given to Bellingcat by some Ukrainians.

Yes. This is where I ask you to THINK FOR YOURSELF.
I addressed the MoD claims here :
https://forum.arctic-sea-ice.net/index.php/topic,1974.msg173899.html#msg173899
I think it is now the third time I post this, but you don't respond to it...

Quote
It's a task for the MH17 investigation to deal with these facts and informations. I hope they will do it objectively, and neutrally,

They did, and they find the same thing Bellingcat found 4 years ago : That this BUK that shot down MH17 is a BUK from the 53rd Brigade in Kursk.

Quote
and without having to yield to pressures from the Ukrainian side, as they have a veto on what's presented in the reports.
No. Ukraine does not have a veto on what's presented.
You're making this up.

Quote
I also hope that Bellingcat will become more open and scientifically minded in the way they treat 'evidence'.

Bellingcat has already put every piece of evidence they used out there in the open, for anyone to verify and argue with. They are more open than ANY other news source out there.

But you do not even dare to argue with the evidence, Hefaistos.
You just repeat Russian talking points blindly.

That tells me you either do not think for yourself and prefer to just parrot Russian propaganda blindly, or you do not want to argue with the evidence, since you know that you are wrong.

Either way it is a disappointing response from a self-declared PhD from Sweden.
Title: Re: The Media: Examples of Good AND Bad Journalism
Post by: NevB on October 27, 2018, 01:20:02 PM
This is the tactic I see too often:

Fox News Is the Tarp on the MAGA Van

If both sides are to blame for the state of political discourse, then neither side can be said to be truly responsible. “We’re at a point where these two parties, these two warring factions inside our polity, owe each other an apology,” Fox News political editor Chris Stirewalt told Dana Perino.

https://slate.com/news-and-politics/2018/10/cesar-sayoc-fox-news-trump-fanaticism.html (https://slate.com/news-and-politics/2018/10/cesar-sayoc-fox-news-trump-fanaticism.html)

When your a thief, liar, sponsor of international assassination,  pussy grabbing president or murderous dictator making people believe others are no better seems to be working.

Today Goebbels would be just an ordinary political operative.




Title: Re: The Media: Examples of Good AND Bad Journalism
Post by: Buddy on October 28, 2018, 03:31:30 PM
FOX has been on the “wrong side” of the following issues for the last two or more decades:

1). Gun control:  FOX continues to support putting as many guns in the hands of citizens as they can.  They don’t want registration, they don’t want regulation of assault rifles, they don’t want regulation of large gun magazines, they don’t want regulation of the mentally ill to get guns.  The continued high level of killings by those with guns, is because of the NRA and support for it from FOX and politicians.

2). Global warming:  Once again, FOX couldn’t give a rats ass about science, facts, and the truth.  FOX is responsible for lying about global warming .... and providing a megaphone for those that deny global warming is occurring and is caused by humans burning of fossil fuels.

3). FOX promotes racism:  Sein Hannity, Lou Dobbs, Tucker Carlson, etc are openly racists. 

When the US wakes up, they will understand that the three biggest problems they face are in large part because you have a media company masquerading as a news company, that has been promoting HORRIBLE policies for the US. 
Title: Re: The Media: Examples of Good AND Bad Journalism
Post by: zizek on October 28, 2018, 04:43:13 PM
Hey Rob,

It appears all the criticism we have against Bellingcat is true.

I'm interested to hear your mental gymnastics of a response to this article:

http://exiledonline.com/shamiwitness-when-bellingcat-neocons-collaborated-with-the-most-influential-isis-propagandist-on-twitter/
Title: Re: The Media: Examples of Good AND Bad Journalism
Post by: mostly_lurking on October 28, 2018, 05:39:40 PM

When the US wakes up, they will understand that the three biggest problems they face are in large part because you have a media company masquerading as a news company, that has been promoting HORRIBLE policies for the US.

CNN,MSNBC  :P
Title: Re: The Media: Examples of Good AND Bad Journalism
Post by: NevB on October 29, 2018, 01:09:39 AM

When the US wakes up, they will understand that the three biggest problems they face are in large part because you have a media company masquerading as a news company, that has been promoting HORRIBLE policies for the US.

CNN,MSNBC  :P

There it is a good example of what I just said:

"If both sides are to blame for the state of political discourse, then neither side can be said to be truly responsible. "
Title: Re: The Media: Examples of Good AND Bad Journalism
Post by: Rob Dekker on October 29, 2018, 03:08:48 AM
Hey Rob,

It appears all the criticism we have against Bellingcat is true.

I'm interested to hear your mental gymnastics of a response to this article:

http://exiledonline.com/shamiwitness-when-bellingcat-neocons-collaborated-with-the-most-influential-isis-propagandist-on-twitter/

Yet another Bellingcat smearing article. And look ! This one is about some tweets from Higgins that are from 2013/2014 !

I'm really puzzled about which mental gymnastics you used to draw the conclusion that based on these tweets, "It appears all the criticism we have against Bellingcat is true.".

Incidentally, who is "we" in your claim ? Does anyone else here think that Zizek has a point ?
Title: Re: The Media: Examples of Good AND Bad Journalism
Post by: Rob Dekker on October 29, 2018, 04:48:30 AM
Europol has started a project to stop child abuse, and bring perpetrators to justice, by crowdsourcing the tracing of objects shown on child abuse pictures :

https://www.europol.europa.eu/stopchildabuse

Quote
The most innocent clues can sometimes help crack a case. The objects are all taken from the background of an image with sexually explicit material involving minors. For all images below, every other investigative avenue has already been examined. Therefore we are requesting  your assistance in identifying the origin of some of these objects. We are convinced that more eyes will lead to more leads and will ultimately help to save these children.

This is an entirely new form of journalism / criminal investigations :
crowd-sourced and for a great cause.

Bellingcat started a project to document and organize responses to these Europol requests :
https://checkmedia.org/bellingcat/project/741

Personally, I've been spending some time trying to geo-locate these picture from Europol :

(https://www.europol.europa.eu/sites/default/files/styles/europol_large/public/images/2018-4-g4.png?itok=r35fwMZh)

The question is : Which city is this ?
Title: Re: The Media: Examples of Good AND Bad Journalism
Post by: Rob Dekker on October 29, 2018, 07:00:17 AM
The apartments in the left-top of the picture have a similar style to the apartments in the Tai Tam (Hong Kong suburb), and the hills kind of match the Shenzhen/Hong Kong skyline. But I can't get a solid geo-location yet...
Title: Re: The Media: Examples of Good AND Bad Journalism
Post by: Red on October 29, 2018, 10:28:11 AM
PURPOSE GOES TO LATIN AMERICA [PART I]

 “How do global powers orchestrate destabilisation and war? And how are propaganda constructs like the White Helmets brought to life? The only way to even begin to answer those questions is to follow the money, analyse the networks and interrogate the messaging. In ‘Purpose goes to Latin America’ Cory Morningstar show how New Power exponents like Jeremy Heimans operate through elite networks, with seemingly endless incubations, to shape and capitalise upon ongoing destabilisation/humanitarian war/regime change. We are shown how Heimans and his networks are most concerned with the economics of behaviour change, attention metrics and shaping public narratives framed as giving “consumers” “opportunities to shape their own future”. We are shown how New Power exponents are socially engineering consent for the endless consumer economy, but sell themselves as pioneers of ‘change’ and builders of social movements for ‘the people’ when clearly it is neoliberal forces that call the tune. Morningstar’s explication of the networks, funders, and talking points being deployed shows that the very same New Power exponents who delivered for the global elites in Syria are preparing to deliver more of the same in Latin America.”— Australian activist, Wrong Kind of Green Collective, Michael Swifte

http://www.theartofannihilation.com/purpose-goes-to-latin-america-part-i/



PURPOSE GOES TO LATIN AMERICA [PART II]

In part one of the report Purpose Goes to Latin America ( August 8, 2018) I demonstrated how global powers orchestrate destabilization, war, economic and imperial domination via the facilitation of NGOs that comprise the non-profit industrial complex. Specifically, I looked at how this successful strategy is unveiling itself in Latin America. I explored “New Power” as a new instrument of hegemony, whereby New Power exponents when mobilized, can be successfully manipulated to serve neoliberal forces in ways never before achievable.

I disclosed the fact that Purpose (the for-profit PR arm of Avaaz) has set up in Latin America with campaigns and projects underway in Brazil and Columbia. This is not a coincidence. In the ongoing destabilization effort being waged against Venezuela, Columbia is being used as a base to launch further aggression. [August 9, 2018: Colombia Can Not Lend Itself to a Foreign Intervention against Venezuela] Consider Purpose “movements” are not decrying the more than 300 assassinations of Colombian leaders over the last two years [Source], rather they are organizing Concordia Summits to facilitate an advancing privatization in Columbia (and the world at large), as they court right wing politicians  and oligarchs.  This can best be described as “power in white face”.

“In the presence of the so-called White Helmets on the border with the brother country, the first-class treatment given by the Colombian government to conspirators and provocateurs… While we condemn and denounce these grotesque maneuvers, we alert our people, the progressive and democratic peoples and governments of Latin America, the Caribbean and the world, not to allow more interference with sovereign Venezuela… Colombia can not lend itself to a foreign intervention against Venezuela. Our continent is a zone of peace and we must not allow ourselves to be deprived of that right.” — August 9, 2018:  Colombia Can Not Lend Itself to a Foreign Intervention against Venezuela [Emphasis added]


http://www.theartofannihilation.com/purpose-goes-to-latin-america-part-ii/
Title: Re: The Media: Examples of Good AND Bad Journalism
Post by: sidd on October 30, 2018, 07:08:43 AM
Hedges interviews Ford from the black agenda report, very keen expose of diversity as a weapon in the fight between the new and old fascism. I will watch it carefully again.

I see a warning on youtube under the clip that RT is funded by the Russian government. I see no similar warning on BBC clips that the BBC  is also funded by the UK government, or on NBC clips which tell me that NBC is controlled by one Brian Roberts of Comcast or ...

We have, of course, always been at war with EastAsia.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IEbCPD5qJ5w

sidd


Title: Re: The Media: Examples of Good AND Bad Journalism
Post by: zizek on October 31, 2018, 11:38:45 PM
Hey Rob,

It appears all the criticism we have against Bellingcat is true.

I'm interested to hear your mental gymnastics of a response to this article:

http://exiledonline.com/shamiwitness-when-bellingcat-neocons-collaborated-with-the-most-influential-isis-propagandist-on-twitter/

Yet another Bellingcat smearing article. And look ! This one is about some tweets from Higgins that are from 2013/2014 !

I'm really puzzled about which mental gymnastics you used to draw the conclusion that based on these tweets, "It appears all the criticism we have against Bellingcat is true.".

Incidentally, who is "we" in your claim ? Does anyone else here think that Zizek has a point ?

What the fuck Rob? Bellingcat's entire shtick is his ability to uncover "truths" through social media. And when somebody was feeding him a narrative that suited him, he didn't bother to do any vetting whatsoever.  He provided a platform and support for a literal ISIS recruiter.  And your response.... is.... uhhhhh..... it happened four years ago... The only thing he's supposed to be good at, deciphering online bullshit, he failed miserably at. And you don't find that the least bit disturbing?

But you're right. This happened four years ago. Bellingcat told people to follow an ISIS member that was tweeting about raping captured Kurdish women. All water under the bridge. We all make mistakes right?
Title: Re: The Media: Examples of Good AND Bad Journalism
Post by: Rob Dekker on November 01, 2018, 05:49:25 AM
He provided a platform and support for a literal ISIS recruiter.

Eliot did nothing like that, and neither was the guy an "ISIS recruiter".

Quote
Bellingcat told people to follow an ISIS member that was tweeting about raping captured Kurdish women.

Bellingcat didn't tell anyone to follow this guy, and neither was he an ISIS member, and I have not seen any tweet where he was tweeting about raping captured Kurdish women.

Look, zizek, all that Eliot did here was mention the guy's twitter name in some 5 tweets back in 2013/2014. That's it.

The rest you fabricated out of thin air, for which you have ZERO evidence.

Just stick to the facts, bro, and stop reading and posting Russian propaganda and lies.

And besides, what did Bellingcat or Eliot Higgins ever do wrong to you to deserve this kind of fact-free smearing ?
Title: Re: The Media: Examples of Good AND Bad Journalism
Post by: Rob Dekker on November 01, 2018, 07:00:52 AM
Europol has started a project to stop child abuse, and bring perpetrators to justice, by crowdsourcing the tracing of objects shown on child abuse pictures :

https://www.europol.europa.eu/stopchildabuse

Quote
The most innocent clues can sometimes help crack a case. The objects are all taken from the background of an image with sexually explicit material involving minors. For all images below, every other investigative avenue has already been examined. Therefore we are requesting  your assistance in identifying the origin of some of these objects. We are convinced that more eyes will lead to more leads and will ultimately help to save these children.

This is an entirely new form of journalism / criminal investigations :
crowd-sourced and for a great cause.

Bellingcat started a project to document and organize responses to these Europol requests :
https://checkmedia.org/bellingcat/project/741

Personally, I've been spending some time trying to geo-locate these picture from Europol :

(https://www.europol.europa.eu/sites/default/files/styles/europol_large/public/images/2018-4-g4.png?itok=r35fwMZh)

The question is : Which city is this ?

We already suspected that this was the Shenzhen area :

The apartments in the left-top of the picture have a similar style to the apartments in the Tai Tam (Hong Kong suburb), and the hills kind of match the Shenzhen/Hong Kong skyline. But I can't get a solid geo-location yet...

The power of crowd-sourcing open-source investigations shows its resolve :

A guy called Olli Enne found the location of this picture sent out by Europol
https://twitter.com/Olli_Enne/status/1057387644810919936

Quote
Hello Europol. Im quite sure i found it. 21km north from Shenzhen.   22° 43.375'N  114° 3.192'E   Hills ok, rooftop ok, surrounding buildings ok, road ok, blue roof ok, arch house background ok, larger houses ok.  I would say 99,9%. Please confirm that you look in to this one?

(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DqyYRDHWsAUhgfc.jpg)

He NAILED it !!
And verified by some of the Bellingcat guys :
https://twitter.com/Olli_Enne/status/1057388543985770497

Here is the street view, where you can see the matching buildings and tree lining, and the blue road sign etc etc.

https://maps.baidu.com/#panoid=09005700121709171701307018S&panotype=street&heading=80.6&pitch=-0.56&l=4&tn=B_NORMAL_MAP&sc=0&newmap=1&shareurl=1&pid=09005700121709171701307018S

The building from which the Europol picture was taken is this one :

https://maps.baidu.com/#panoid=09005700121709171701043658S&panotype=street&heading=167.37&pitch=42.48&l=4&tn=B_NORMAL_MAP&sc=0&newmap=1&shareurl=1&pid=09005700121709171701043658S

Whatever you think of open source investigations and Bellingcat, you gotta admit this is some pretty awesome detective work !!
Title: Re: The Media: Examples of Good AND Bad Journalism
Post by: SteveMDFP on November 01, 2018, 03:06:23 PM
  Perhaps the outcomes of such investigations should be undertaken by official Law enforcement officers and kept private, lest issues arise about unfair trials due to media info being placed all over the internet and on the nightly news? 

A rational concern.  But when law enforcement specifically requests the help of the public in solving a crime, what, we should refuse to assist?
Title: Re: The Media: Examples of Good AND Bad Journalism
Post by: Rob Dekker on November 02, 2018, 06:02:55 AM
Yet here you are posting this: Here is the street view, where you can see the matching buildings and tree lining, and the blue road sign etc etc.

https://maps.baidu.com/#panoid=09005700121709171701307018S&panotype=street&heading=80.6&pitch=-0.56&l=4&tn=B_NORMAL_MAP&sc=0&newmap=1&shareurl=1&pid=09005700121709171701307018S

The building from which the Europol picture was taken is this one :
https://maps.baidu.com/#panoid=09005700121709171701043658S&panotype=street&heading=167.37&pitch=42.48&l=4&tn=B_NORMAL_MAP&sc=0&newmap=1&shareurl=1&pid=09005700121709171701043658S

The home of an accused pedophile I hear you say? Is that correct? Perhaps the outcomes of such investigations should be undertaken by official Law enforcement officers and kept private, lest issues arise about unfair trials due to media info being placed all over the internet and on the nightly news?

Not that any "accused" person could ever be deemed innocent, right? Or lest some crazed right wing nutjob decided she might want to target an online commenter who was promoting the clinton and democrats 24/7 with a new pipe bomb - gosh there are some crazy nutters out there, right?

Besides why would anyone care if their privacy was breached on the internet unless they were already GUILTY of something ? :) 

( yeah, I'm shaking my head in disbelief, still )

Look at it this way : If you take dirty pictures of minors you committed a crime.
You no longer have any right to privacy after you take such pictures.

In the US we have a database of these guys, with their addresses publicly available.
In China, not that much yet.

Besides, all that "open source" investigation did was identify the location of the scene of the crime.
We still don't know who actually were the perpetrators, but maybe this work would bring Europol one step closer to solving this crime.

And you have to admit that the geo-location in this case was an example of some truly awesome detective work.
Title: Re: The Media: Examples of Good AND Bad Journalism
Post by: Neven on November 02, 2018, 06:48:08 AM
When is Bellingcat going to post recipes, so we can all go: OMG, they invented bread!  ;D
Title: Re: The Media: Examples of Good AND Bad Journalism
Post by: Neven on November 02, 2018, 07:51:12 AM
When is Bellingcat going to post recipes, so we can all go: OMG, they invented bread!  ;D

Is that jealousy I hear, Neven ?

Yes, I want to invent bread too!
Title: Re: The Media: Examples of Good AND Bad Journalism
Post by: Rob Dekker on November 02, 2018, 07:57:04 AM
When is Bellingcat going to post recipes, so we can all go: OMG, they invented bread!  ;D

Is that jealousy I hear, Neven ?

Yes, I want to invent bread too!

Well, there is a thing called "open source" investigation. It's using material that is available to everyone to find out the truth about what happened.
Bellingcat is really good at that, and I think you can learn from them.
They just announced a set of new workshops here :

https://www.bellingcat.com/resources/events/2018/11/01/new-bellingcat-workshops-announced-berlin-london-washington-amsterdam/

Would you care to join one of these workshops ?
I'd even pay for your attendance.

I think it is important that you are aware of how this new form of journalism works and why it is so successful in separating the truth from the lies.
Title: Re: The Media: Examples of Good AND Bad Journalism
Post by: Neven on November 02, 2018, 08:05:38 AM
Sure, it's interesting in itself, but it's also a bit of a hype, a hype that serves a purpose.
Title: Re: The Media: Examples of Good AND Bad Journalism
Post by: Rob Dekker on November 02, 2018, 08:18:20 AM
Sure, it's interesting in itself, but it's also a bit of a hype, a hype that serves a purpose.

I know you think there is some alternative motive here, but why don't you give it a try ?
You may be surprised by what you find.
 
Again, I'll pay for your attendance to the workshop.

I think it is important enough for a journalist of your statue to understand the concept of "open source" investigations and why it is so successful in separating truth from lies.
Title: Re: The Media: Examples of Good AND Bad Journalism
Post by: Rob Dekker on November 02, 2018, 08:45:13 AM
And Neven, please realize that with or without you, "open source" investigations are going to take over much of investigative journalism in the years to come.

For example, the BBC exposing the location, timing and perpetrators of a hideous murder in Cameroon is just an example :

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-africa-45681690

https://www.journalism.co.uk/video/how-to-get-started-with-open-source-investigations-from-the-bbc-team-behind-cameroon-anatomy-of-a-killing/s400/a728268/
Title: Re: The Media: Examples of Good AND Bad Journalism
Post by: Neven on November 02, 2018, 09:02:00 AM
I know you think there is some alternative motive here, but why don't you give it a try ?
You may be surprised by what you find.

I've translated that Bellingcat documentary, and so watched it four times (I'm actually working on the final versionright now). I've learned a lot about the people behind Bellingcat, and I'll share my views at some point in the Russia thread. As soon as I have some more time.
 
Quote
I think it is important enough for a journalist of your statue to understand the concept of "open source" investigations and why it is so successful in separating truth from lies.

Thanks, Rob, but I'm not a journalist of any statue. I'm just a guy who follows Arctic sea ice, and I write about it as an activist, fueled by a certain world view. That world view cannot be taught in a workshop. It takes a life to develop, and 'open source' journalism can't do much to influence it, because I try to base it on universal principles, not on worldly events, or an interpretation thereof.

My time is limited, so if I were to do a workshop, it would be about soil health or sustainable building, or things like statistics or coding.

I'm sure the workshops are useful, but I'm also pretty certain there are hundreds of professionals who have been doing what Bellingcat is doing for years. Bread has already been invented, and the reason it is so hyped up, is because the public has lost trust in the media (and rightly so). Bellingcat is now being promoted to fill that gap, with clear help of large institutions behind the scenes. And for some target groups, desperate for a conventional 'truth' that everyone must unite behind, it seems to be working very well. But it doesn't solve anything whatsoever, because it doesn't get at the root of things. It's a decoy.
Title: Re: The Media: Examples of Good AND Bad Journalism
Post by: zizek on November 02, 2018, 09:21:25 PM
He provided a platform and support for a literal ISIS recruiter.

Eliot did nothing like that, and neither was the guy an "ISIS recruiter".

Quote
Bellingcat told people to follow an ISIS member that was tweeting about raping captured Kurdish women.



Bellingcat didn't tell anyone to follow this guy, and neither was he an ISIS member, and I have not seen any tweet where he was tweeting about raping captured Kurdish women.

Look, zizek, all that Eliot did here was mention the guy's twitter name in some 5 tweets back in 2013/2014. That's it.

The rest you fabricated out of thin air, for which you have ZERO evidence.

Just stick to the facts, bro, and stop reading and posting Russian propaganda and lies.

And besides, what did Bellingcat or Eliot Higgins ever do wrong to you to deserve this kind of fact-free smearing ?

Did you not read the article at all?

Bellincat literally tweeted asking people to follow ShamiWitness
ShamiWitness close to literally tweeted about raping Kurdish women. It's at the beginning of the article for christ sake.
ShamiWitness is literally in jail for recruiting people to ISIS

The evidence is clear as day. What is wrong with you? Does your mind just turn off when you read about anything that doesn't serve your narrative? Or is your mind just always turned off?

Mark Ames, noted Russian propaghandist...... Jesus Christ. 
Title: Re: The Media: Examples of Good AND Bad Journalism
Post by: Rob Dekker on November 03, 2018, 03:52:31 AM
He provided a platform and support for a literal ISIS recruiter.

Eliot did nothing like that, and neither was the guy an "ISIS recruiter".

Quote
Bellingcat told people to follow an ISIS member that was tweeting about raping captured Kurdish women.

Bellingcat didn't tell anyone to follow this guy, and neither was he an ISIS member, and I have not seen any tweet where he was tweeting about raping captured Kurdish women.

Look, zizek, all that Eliot did here was mention the guy's twitter name in some 5 tweets back in 2013/2014. That's it.

The rest you fabricated out of thin air, for which you have ZERO evidence.

Just stick to the facts, bro, and stop reading and posting Russian propaganda and lies.

And besides, what did Bellingcat or Eliot Higgins ever do wrong to you to deserve this kind of fact-free smearing ?

Did you not read the article at all?

Bellincat literally tweeted asking people to follow ShamiWitness

I think you are confused here. Here, from your article, Eliot gave a list of people to follow about Syria, and it does NOT include ShamiWitness.
That was another guy, Charles Lister :

(https://forum.arctic-sea-ice.net/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fexiledonline.com%2Fwp-content%2Fuploads%2F2018%2F07%2FScreen-Shot-2018-07-28-at-9.51.46-PM-465x507.png&hash=3dabe7eb7bf5eda8af34a9b5f4d4312a)

But even if ShamiWitness was recommended as a source of jihadi news in a tweet or two, its a really long stretch to "He provided a platform and support for a literal ISIS recruiter.".

Mark Ames REALLY, REALLY, REALLY wants to smear Eliot and Bellingcat with this, but only finds, what is it, FIVE (5) tweets from Eliot (out of Eliot's 220,000 tweets over the past 4 years) where this guys is even mentioned.

So Eliot was not that close to this guy. In fact, he lists him as being a "parrot" of ISIS :

(https://forum.arctic-sea-ice.net/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fexiledonline.com%2Fwp-content%2Fuploads%2F2018%2F07%2Feliothiggins-downplay-shamiwitness1-465x250.png&hash=443b32ffbbb226e47159ecd80ba162d8)

Quote
ShamiWitness close to literally tweeted about raping Kurdish women.

I see one tweet there, but it doesn't say anything about raping Kurdish women.

Quote
ShamiWitness is literally in jail for recruiting people to ISIS

Is he ? You have a link to that ?
Title: Re: The Media: Examples of Good AND Bad Journalism
Post by: sidd on November 03, 2018, 06:28:46 AM
Democrat faith in media at highest since records were taken:

"Democrats' trust surged last year and is now at 76%, the highest in Gallup's trend by party, based on available data since 1997."

That's no surprise, but here's another that's no surprise: Kids believe less than old folk:

"In the current survey, 53% of those aged 65 and older trust in the media, compared with just 33% of those under age 30. "

https://news.gallup.com/poll/243665/media-trust-continues-recover-2016-low.aspx

sidd
Title: Re: The Media: Examples of Good AND Bad Journalism
Post by: zizek on November 03, 2018, 11:46:04 AM

I think you are confused here. Here, from your article, Eliot gave a list of people to follow about Syria, and it does NOT include ShamiWitness.
That was another guy, Charles Lister :

(https://forum.arctic-sea-ice.net/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fexiledonline.com%2Fwp-content%2Fuploads%2F2018%2F07%2FScreen-Shot-2018-07-28-at-9.51.46-PM-465x507.png&hash=3dabe7eb7bf5eda8af34a9b5f4d4312a)


uhhhh. it looks like you missed these two tweets:

(https://forum.arctic-sea-ice.net/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fexiledonline.com%2Fwp-content%2Fuploads%2F2018%2F07%2Fhiggins-ff-shamiwitness1-465x229.png&hash=963a891a2dcc8e965639c440e07f036d)

(https://forum.arctic-sea-ice.net/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fexiledonline.com%2Fwp-content%2Fuploads%2F2018%2F10%2FScreen-Shot-2018-10-05-at-6.02.13-PM-465x250.png&hash=66cd9cd4634243d45c360f5dbc4f99d0)

#FF means Follow Friday. It says right there in the article. The article you keep forgetting to read.


But even if ShamiWitness was recommended as a source of jihadi news in a tweet or two, its a really long stretch to "He provided a platform and support for a literal ISIS recruiter.".

Mark Ames REALLY, REALLY, REALLY wants to smear Eliot and Bellingcat with this, but only finds, what is it, FIVE (5) tweets from Eliot (out of Eliot's 220,000 tweets over the past 4 years) where this guys is even mentioned.

So Eliot was not that close to this guy. In fact, he lists him as being a "parrot" of ISIS :

(https://forum.arctic-sea-ice.net/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fexiledonline.com%2Fwp-content%2Fuploads%2F2018%2F07%2Feliothiggins-downplay-shamiwitness1-465x250.png&hash=443b32ffbbb226e47159ecd80ba162d8)

This highlights Bellincats methodology. He doesn't even bother for cursory vetting for his sources. Instead he just finds whatever information serves his narrative. And when his sources end up being garbage, which they often do (see: no vetting, no journalist rigor), he just goes "oopsies". Actually, he doesn't even go "oopsies", he just ignores any mistakes and carries on.


Quote
ShamiWitness close to literally tweeted about raping Kurdish women.

I see one tweet there, but it doesn't say anything about raping Kurdish women.


"In 2014, responding to reports out of Kobane that ISIS attackers were raping and mutilating female Kurdish soldiers, ShamiWitness gleefully tweeted:"

(https://forum.arctic-sea-ice.net/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fexiledonline.com%2Fwp-content%2Fuploads%2F2018%2F07%2Fshamiwitness-kurd-rapes1-465x207.png&hash=9e15f0a750fec36326846797cca285ff)

Totally Rob! This is definitely not about raping kurdish women. He just wanted ISIS to capture kurdish women so they can learn about feminism, Kurdish culture, and revolutionary struggle. 





---------------------------------



Quote
ShamiWitness is literally in jail for recruiting people to ISIS

Is he ? You have a link to that ?

A link? You mean a link to the article that you're responding? The article that started this discussion? Do you want me to link that again? Or did you not read that article? Because it sounds like you did not read that article. Because in that article, the article that started this discussion, explicitly says that he is in jail, with links to support that.
Title: Re: The Media: Examples of Good AND Bad Journalism
Post by: Buddy on November 03, 2018, 01:27:34 PM
There is a NEW special on the History Channel regarding WaterGate.  Part I was last night, part II is tonight, and I think part III is Sunday night.  I just watched Part I this morning.  I HIGHLY recommend it.

It goes much deeper AND more broadly than the CNN special of a year ago.  You get a better feeling for just how filthy the Nixon administration was.

Fast forward to today .... and you’ll begin to see how much more we haven’t seen YET with RussiaGate.  As I said 18 months ago ..... WaterGate will pale in comparison to what will be unearthed in RussiaGate.

Next week will likely be the next step of the Trump offensive to end/derail RussiaGate.  He has no choice .... and that is very dangerous for a sociopath like Trump.

After watching the History Channel you may get a greater appreciation of what Trump might be capable of doing.  Hint:  Take Nixon and double it.
Title: Re: The Media: Examples of Good AND Bad Journalism
Post by: Rob Dekker on November 04, 2018, 05:47:12 AM
Zizek, with Lurk in the middle blaming me for denial, this has turned into an unhealthy discussion.

Let me just briefly make my points again, and then you can respond as you wish, but I'm done on this subject.

I think you are taking an extreme position that is no longer supported by the facts.

For example, you mention the TWO (2) #FF tweets where Higgins mentioned ShamiWitness together with other jihadi news sources.

Sending out 2 tweets is a LOT different than claiming (as you did) that

Quote
"He provided a platform and support for a literal ISIS recruiter.".

And regarding ShamiWitness being "a literal ISIS recruiter", that is still to be determined.
The last thing I know is that he is still awaiting trial.
That's a LOT different from your claim that :

Quote
ShamiWitness is literally in jail for recruiting people to ISIS

If it were so obvious that he was "recruiting people to ISIS", then I would have expected the prosecution to move forward quickly with a trial.

But ShamiWitness mostly just parroted propaganda on Twitter, and it's not obvious he has committed any crime at all. So now it looks like India does not exactly know what to do with this guy, and that's why he has not been in trial yet (even after 4 years).

Now, I really don't know if this guy has broken the law or not.
No evidence has been presented either way.

But with your statement you make this guy guilty until proven innocent.
And that is taking an extreme position that is no longer sustained by the facts.

Incidentally, how long can India keep somebody in jail without a trial ?
Title: Re: The Media: Examples of Good AND Bad Journalism
Post by: Red on November 04, 2018, 11:53:30 AM
MOSCOW, November 2. /TASS/. The on-going Russophobic campaign in the West is making Russian compatriots feel like going back to Russia, a high-ranking Russian foreign ministry official said on Friday.
"We see upwards tendencies as concerns the number of applications under the resettlement program," Oleg Malginov, director of the ministry’s departs for work with compatriots living abroad, told TASS.
"There is a range of reasons for that, but the number of those who want to come to live in Russia, including from European countries, is going up obviously because of growing discomfort over this situation," he said, commenting of Foreign Minister Sergey Lavrov’s statement on growing pressure on Russian-speakers in Western countries amidst the Russophobic campaign.
"We try to keep a close eye on this situation, to receive some data from the United States, the United Kingdom and other countries," he noted. "The press, debates in parliaments and on television - and Russophobia in society is way over the limit. They even tell us that should the Western press be likewise aggressive against other nationalities or ethnic groups the authors would have been brought to court."
The most pressing Russophobic situation, in his words, is in the Baltic states.
However, the Russian diplomat stressed, there is no Russophobia among ordinary people in the West. "Even in the United States, our compatriots organize various events and representatives from the local authorities take part in them. They help organize such events. The same can be said about other countries. Naturally, we cannot say that the mass media have no influence but we cannot say either that their negative images of Russia have taken root in society," Malginov noted.
Speaking at the opening of the 6th World Congress of Russian Compatriots, Russian Foreign Minister Sergey Lavrov noted that many Russians living abroad are faced with the consequences of the West’s anti-Russian campaign in the West.


More:
http://tass.com/politics/1029170?utm_source=samizdat&utm_medium=partner&utm_campaign=free
Title: Re: The Media: Examples of Good AND Bad Journalism
Post by: Buddy on November 04, 2018, 01:04:44 PM
Red:

1). Good name ....  why hide your sentiments when you are quoting a TASS article anyway.  I’m surprised you didn’t add in an article from their sister company, FOX News.

2). There is no Russiaphobia against everyday Russian citizens who DON’T work in the upper levels of the Russian government.  I certainly feel sorry for them that they are ruled by a kleptocracy ... although I know someone in the US that is trying to take the US in that direction.😉
Title: Re: The Media: Examples of Good AND Bad Journalism
Post by: zizek on November 04, 2018, 01:10:48 PM

Zizek, with Lurk in the middle blaming me for denial, this has turned into an unhealthy discussion.
Any discussion with you is unhealthy. You have never ever ever ever accepted any criticism that paints the west as imperialist - as an enemy.  No matter how damning, no matter how trivial, you always stay strong to support the anglo narrative.

Let me just briefly make my points again, and then you can respond as you wish, but I'm done on this subject.

Very convenient for you. You post endlessly about about propaganda, media, and open-source journalism, but the second you find yourself on shaky ground you duck out. You do this every single time your wrong. Arguing with you is exhausting, because you are never wrong.

I think you are taking an extreme position that is no longer supported by the facts.

For example, you mention the TWO (2) #FF tweets where Higgins mentioned ShamiWitness together with other jihadi news sources.

Sending out 2 tweets is a LOT different than claiming (as you did) that

Quote
"He provided a platform and support for a literal ISIS recruiter.".

Rob. Bravo. You're moving the goal posts and being incredibly dishonest. I posted those tweets in response to you claiming that Bellingcat never asked people to follow ShamiWitness. Which is utterly false. Remember when you said this?

Quote
I think you are confused here. Here, from your article, Eliot gave a list of people to follow about Syria, and it does NOT include ShamiWitness.

First you say bellingcat didn't ask his followers to follow Shami. Then you say he did, but he lumped it with other Jihadi sources, so it's okay. What are you going to do next? Try to argue that Shami might actually not be so bad? (oh my, you actually did this)

Besides that, the entire article, not just those two tweets, describes how Bellingcat and his cohort provided a platform for an ISIS recruiter. And categorically ignored reputable information because it didn't serve his narrative.
Title: Re: The Media: Examples of Good AND Bad Journalism
Post by: zizek on November 04, 2018, 01:23:59 PM
I had to have a separate post for this. Because this is bad. This is a real low point for you Rob.
You are an inch away from supporting an ISIS recruiter just so you can defend Bellingcat.


And regarding ShamiWitness being "a literal ISIS recruiter", that is still to be determined.
The last thing I know is that he is still awaiting trial.
That's a LOT different from your claim that :

Quote
ShamiWitness is literally in jail for recruiting people to ISIS

If it were so obvious that he was "recruiting people to ISIS", then I would have expected the prosecution to move forward quickly with a trial.

But ShamiWitness mostly just parroted propaganda on Twitter, and it's not obvious he has committed any crime at all. So now it looks like India does not exactly know what to do with this guy, and that's why he has not been in trial yet (even after 4 years).

Now, I really don't know if this guy has broken the law or not.
No evidence has been presented either way.

But with your statement you make this guy guilty until proven innocent.
And that is taking an extreme position that is no longer sustained by the facts.

Incidentally, how long can India keep somebody in jail without a trial ?

Innocent until proven guilty?
"I’m a soldier and messenger. I don’t regret what I’ve done"
https://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/india/Im-a-soldier-I-have-no-regrets-says-ISIS-Twitter-handler-Mehdi-Masroor-Biswas/articleshow/45567376.cms

hmmmmm

Broken the law or not? This is quite the rap sheet
Joint Commissioner of Police, M. Chandrashekhar said that he is charged with supporting a terrorist organisation, waging war against the State, unlawful activities, conspiracy, sedition and promoting enmity, according to the Hindu newspaper.

Mr Chandrashekhar said the charges include aiding and abetting a terrorist organisation on Twitter.

https://www.channel4.com/news/isis-shami-witness-medhi-masroor-biswas-charged


He hasn't stand trial? His in the middle of trial right now. 
https://bangaloremirror.indiatimes.com/bangalore/others/mehdi-trial-reaches-critical-stage-police-eye-success/articleshow/55517620.cms

He even got denied bail last year.
https://www.news18.com/news/india/no-bail-to-isis-twitter-handle-operator-says-supreme-court-1450327.html

High profile trials in the United States can go on for years.... Hell, the United States keeps people in jails for years before seeing a court room

But this is the first time anybody has been charged for cyber terrorism in India. I'm sure this is simple and clear cut case for the Indian courts to make in a few months......

Title: Re: The Media: Examples of Good AND Bad Journalism
Post by: zizek on November 04, 2018, 01:35:51 PM
I'm not sure what's better here. Rob on the verge of supporting an ISIS member to prove a point.  Or the irony of him requesting a formalized "innocent until proven guilty".
Just to remind our readers, Rob is a man who calls for war against nations based on evidence from open-sourced journalism. Rob is okay with bombing the shit out of countries because some non-arabic gamer in England posted a bunch of pictures with ms paint red circles. But when someone admits to being an ISIS member, talks about raping kurds, posts pictures of decapitated kurds - it's time give this guy the benefit of the doubt. Due process suddenly becomes important.


Those are the FACTS
Title: Re: The Media: Examples of Good AND Bad Journalism
Post by: SteveMDFP on November 04, 2018, 01:45:51 PM
I'm not sure what's better here. Rob on the verge of supporting an ISIS member to prove a point.  Or the irony of him requesting a formalized "innocent until proven guilty".
Just to remind our readers, Rob is a man who calls for war against nations based on evidence from open-sourced journalism. Rob is okay with bombing the shit out of countries because some non-arabic gamer in England posted a bunch of pictures with ms paint red circles. But when someone admits to being an ISIS member, talks about raping kurds, posts pictures of decapitated kurds - it's time give this guy the benefit of the doubt. Due process suddenly becomes important.


Those are the FACTS

This is entirely off-topic, and an ad hominem attack.  The topic is good and bad journalism.  Perhaps you should start a new thread for "Gossip About Other ASIF Members"
Title: Re: The Media: Examples of Good AND Bad Journalism
Post by: zizek on November 04, 2018, 01:53:26 PM
How is that post an ad hominem attack? I'm highlighting how Rob likes to play fast and loose with "facts" so it suits his narrative.  I'd like to call that an example of...... bad journalism!
Title: Re: The Media: Examples of Good AND Bad Journalism
Post by: SteveMDFP on November 04, 2018, 02:00:36 PM
How is that post an ad hominem attack? I'm highlighting how Rob likes to play fast and loose with "facts" so it suits his narrative.  I'd like to call that an example of...... bad journalism!

You turned the topic to the person you were debating.  That's literally what "ad hominem" means.
Title: Re: The Media: Examples of Good AND Bad Journalism
Post by: zizek on November 04, 2018, 02:08:49 PM
Uhhhh. I'm focusing on his tactics and hypocrisy though. Not his character.
Title: Re: The Media: Examples of Good AND Bad Journalism
Post by: Jim Pettit on November 04, 2018, 02:10:23 PM
I'm not sure what's better here. Rob on the verge of supporting an ISIS member to prove a point.  Or the irony of him requesting a formalized "innocent until proven guilty".
Just to remind our readers, Rob is a man who calls for war against nations based on evidence from open-sourced journalism. Rob is okay with bombing the shit out of countries because some non-arabic gamer in England posted a bunch of pictures with ms paint red circles. But when someone admits to being an ISIS member, talks about raping kurds, posts pictures of decapitated kurds - it's time give this guy the benefit of the doubt. Due process suddenly becomes important.


Those are the FACTS

One of the biggest myths on the internet is that SCREAMING SOMETHING IN ALL-CAPS makes one right.

You should have learned that by now.

As Neven has suggested to you, Zizek, even those who might agree with some--or even most--of your points generally find it difficult to publicly side with someone who spouts non-stop invective and ad hominem attacks. Debate the facts with facts. Argue the points with research. Rebut the poster with watertight logic. Anything less than that makes you easy to ignore, as easy to ignore as the crazy man at the corner dressed like a thrift-shop Moses and shouting that the end of the world is nigh.
Title: Re: The Media: Examples of Good AND Bad Journalism
Post by: zizek on November 04, 2018, 02:22:12 PM
oh please. ::)

I bolded a single word as a dramatic point that displays just how obnoxious Rob can be with that term. Even when his argument was well refuted, he still hid behind that term to make it seem like I was a liar. He does this every time he's wrong: "oh jeez, oh shucks. Looks like I can't bullshit myself out of this one.  uhhhh. Facts Facts facts!!!! Your facts are wrong. Everybody, this man has bad facts! Don't ask me why those facts are wrong. They're just bad facts!"

And stop claiming ad hominem attacks just because I have a history of using them.  I bit my tongue in this case. I shouldn't have. Because there's a lot of things I'd like to say to someone apologizing for an ISIS supporter. but whoa is me
Title: Re: The Media: Examples of Good AND Bad Journalism
Post by: zizek on November 04, 2018, 02:30:51 PM
Like. just look what is happening here. Rob was clearly wrong. Mostly because he just straight up didn't even bother to read the article I posted.  And after he was proven wrong he moved the goal posts. And with the grand finale of defending an ISIS supporter.

And what is the response? Two prolific posters dog-piling on me trying to claim I'm making attacks on his character. Ad hominems that were never made.  At worst, I made a post highlighting Rob's hypocritical and intellectually bankrupt method of arguing.

And of course the guns are pointed at me..... You wonder why I get mad on this forum.
Title: Re: The Media: Examples of Good AND Bad Journalism
Post by: Neven on November 04, 2018, 02:32:47 PM
IMO, Zizek is right. Not that it means much in the greater scheme of things, or even this forum, but he is right.
Title: Re: The Media: Examples of Good AND Bad Journalism
Post by: SteveMDFP on November 04, 2018, 02:38:03 PM
IMO, Zizek is right. Not that it means much in the greater scheme of things, or even this forum, but he is right.

Right about what?  That Rob moved goalposts in his responses?
Or right to attack Rob's character?
Or right to turn the entire topic to be about Rob, rather than Journalism?
Please be specific.
Title: Re: The Media: Examples of Good AND Bad Journalism
Post by: Neven on November 04, 2018, 03:07:28 PM
He is right about most things in this particular instance. C'est tout.
Title: Re: The Media: Examples of Good AND Bad Journalism
Post by: sidd on November 04, 2018, 11:14:19 PM
Aljazeera video of Israel covert ops in USA leaked:

https://electronicintifada.net/content/watch-film-israel-lobby-didnt-want-you-see/25876

sidd
Title: Re: The Media: Examples of Good AND Bad Journalism
Post by: Rob Dekker on November 05, 2018, 05:34:44 AM
Let's recap :
Zizek posts this blog post :

http://exiledonline.com/shamiwitness-when-bellingcat-neocons-collaborated-with-the-most-influential-isis-propagandist-on-twitter/

Which is titled ( in all CAPS ) :

SHAMIWITNESS: WHEN BELLINGCAT & NEOCONS COLLABORATED WITH THE MOST INFLUENTIAL ISIS PROPAGANDIST ON TWITTER

With the claim that :
Quote
It appears all the criticism we have against Bellingcat is true.

I'm interested to hear your mental gymnastics of a response to this article:
https://forum.arctic-sea-ice.net/index.php/topic,2272.msg178682.html#msg178682

To which I responded :
Quote
I'm really puzzled about which mental gymnastics you used to draw the conclusion that based on these tweets, "It appears all the criticism we have against Bellingcat is true.".
and I also noted that this was quite dated (2013/2014).
https://forum.arctic-sea-ice.net/index.php/topic,2272.msg178682.html#msg178682

Zizek did not provide any evidence that "all the criticism we have against Bellingcat is true", but instead changed the goalposts and switched to the claim that :

Quote
What the fuck Rob? ... He provided a platform and support for a literal ISIS recruiter. 
https://forum.arctic-sea-ice.net/index.php/topic,2272.msg179035.html#msg179035

Zizek did not provide any evidence that Bellingcat "provided a platform and support for a literal ISIS recruiter" but instead again changed the goal posts, now only claiming that :

Quote
Bellingcat told people to follow an ISIS member...

That's where I made a mistake : I said "Bellingcat didn't tell anyone to follow this guy,".

Which was true if you look at Bellingcat's posts of who-to-follow on Syria, but there are TWO (2) #FF tweets from Higgins which include ShamiWitness. Two tweets which Eliot already point out that these are Jihadi news sources.

That's all the evidence we have that Bellingcat "provided a platform and support for a literal ISIS recruiter" and "all the criticism we have against Bellingcat is true",".

Two tweets.

And that is why I am saying : You are holding an extreme position, which is no longer reasonable nor sustained by the facts, and it was you who changed the goal posts. Twice.
Title: Re: The Media: Examples of Good AND Bad Journalism
Post by: Rob Dekker on November 05, 2018, 05:50:58 AM
Between posts from Zizek, Lurk and even Neven ("it's not for you, Rob. It's for those who have ears to hear") against my person, but unwilling to go ad-hominem in return, I feel like a one-legged man in an arse kicking contest.

Since I seem to get under people's skin with my fact checks, should I just disappear from these threads ?

And at a very high level : What did open source journalism, and Bellingcat specifically, ever do wrong to any of you, for you to be fighting so hard to discredit them ?
Title: Re: The Media: Examples of Good AND Bad Journalism
Post by: Hefaistos on November 05, 2018, 06:03:11 AM
...should I just disappear from these threads ?
...

Rob, if you're an AI/computer algorithm (as I've been suspecting for some time), I suggest you go.

As Zizek put it: "Arguing with you is exhausting, because you are never wrong."
Title: Re: The Media: Examples of Good AND Bad Journalism
Post by: Neven on November 05, 2018, 06:21:26 AM
Rob is not a bot.

And at a very high level : What did open source journalism, and Bellingcat specifically, ever do wrong to any of you, for you to be fighting so hard to discredit them ?

I and others have tried to explain several times, but you do not seem to even acknowledge other viewpoints on this matter, let alone be open to them. I'll be posting my views on Bellingcat one more time this week (after viewing that documentary several times), but I'll do it in the Russia thread.

The only reason to discuss it here, is that Bellingcat has been elevated in an attempt to supersede the discussion of good and bad journalism (in other words, general trust in media), and the reason why it is defended so vehemently - and any critic is on some arbitrary list - is that people simply have to fall in line with a certain narrative. The problem being that this narrative leads to war and misery (and big profits for a small group of people (in the US, Russia, Saudi Arabia, the EU, Israel, Ukraine, etc).
Title: Re: The Media: Examples of Good AND Bad Journalism
Post by: Rob Dekker on November 05, 2018, 07:10:46 AM
Rob is not a bot.

Thanks. Yet Lurk has found a way to insult me regardless. Did you notice ?

Quote
And at a very high level : What did open source journalism, and Bellingcat specifically, ever do wrong to any of you, for you to be fighting so hard to discredit them ?

I and others have tried to explain several times, but you do not seem to even acknowledge other viewpoints on this matter, let alone be open to them. I'll be posting my views on Bellingcat one more time this week (after viewing that documentary several times), but I'll do it in the Russia thread.

I did read all the previous explanations, but they don't make any sense at all to me. Like the opinion that open source investigations is conflicting with a particular "world view" which has been developed over a lifetime.

So, I'm looking forward to your clear explanation of your opinion about Bellingcat on the Russia thread.

Quote
The only reason to discuss it here, is that Bellingcat has been elevated in an attempt to supersede the discussion of good and bad journalism (in other words, general trust in media), and the reason why it is defended so vehemently - and any critic is on some arbitrary list - is that people simply have to fall in line with a certain narrative.

That's kind of interesting, since Bellingcat has gained so much credibility in the media lately, simply because they have been proven to be right every time. So the only "narrative" they fell in line with is the narrative of the truth.

Quote
The problem being that this narrative leads to war and misery (and big profits for a small group of people (in the US, Russia, Saudi Arabia, the EU, Israel, Ukraine, etc).

I don't see that Bellingcat's uncovering the truth has led to war and misery.
Could you clarify ?
Title: Re: The Media: Examples of Good AND Bad Journalism
Post by: Neven on November 05, 2018, 07:30:24 AM
Thanks. Yet Lurk has found a way to insult me regardless. Did you notice ?

Yes, I noticed. You insult him too all the time, so stop whining/trolling/playing the victim like a climate risk denier. He's on moderation, you're not.

Quote
I did read all the previous explanations, but they don't make any sense at all to me.

Indeed, which leaves two possibilities:

1) They don't make sense.
2) You're not capable of making sense of them, because your mind is closed.

You think it's 1), I think it's 2). Like I said, you aren't even willing to acknowledge analysis that differs from conventional(/conditioned) thought.

Quote
So, I'm looking forward to your clear explanation of your opinion about Bellingcat on the Russia thread.

It won't differ much from what I've said so far. The documentary has given me more insight into the people behind Bellingcat, besides Higgins (who is a tragic figure).

Bellingcat is being used as a weapon, a propaganda tool in its own right. It's not going to lead to anything good, and if it ever does, Assange will have to share whatever prison he's in.

Quote
I don't see that Bellingcat's uncovering the "narrative" of the truth has led to war and misery.Could you clarify ?

I've already done so before, here and in our e-mail exchanges, in many different ways. I can't prove it in a scientific way, which leaves you room to disregard it entirely. But I've experienced a war and the build-up towards it up close, and you clearly haven't.
Title: Re: The Media: Examples of Good AND Bad Journalism
Post by: Rob Dekker on November 05, 2018, 07:52:09 AM
Thanks. Yet Lurk has found a way to insult me regardless. Did you notice ?

Yes, I noticed. You insult him too all the time, so stop whining/trolling/playing the victim like a climate risk denier. He's on moderation, you're not.

Interesting that you allow ad hominem insults through while he is on moderation.

And interesting that you insult me ad hominem too : ""it's not for you, Rob. It's for those who have ears to hear".

Quote
Quote
I did read all the previous explanations, but they don't make any sense at all to me.

Indeed, which leaves two possibilities:

1) They don't make sense.
2) You're not capable of making sense of them, because your mind is closed.

You think it's 1), I think it's 2). Like I said, you aren't even willing to acknowledge analysis that differs from conventional(/conditioned) thought.

Sure. Here is your latest explanation as to why "open source" investigations are just not your thing :

Quote
Thanks, Rob, but I'm not a journalist of any statue. I'm just a guy who follows Arctic sea ice, and I write about it as an activist, fueled by a certain world view. That world view cannot be taught in a workshop. It takes a life to develop, and 'open source' journalism can't do much to influence it, because I try to base it on universal principles, not on worldly events, or an interpretation thereof.
https://forum.arctic-sea-ice.net/index.php/topic,2272.msg179195.html#msg179195

Now, what am I supposed to make of that response, Neven ?

Is my mind closed (2), as you suggest, or does your explanation simply does not make sense (1) ?
Title: Re: The Media: Examples of Good AND Bad Journalism
Post by: Neven on November 05, 2018, 08:18:28 AM
Interesting that you allow ad hominem insults through while he is on moderation.

I let some through, others I don't, assuming everything is an ad hominem, of course.

Quote
Sure. Here is your latest explanation as to why "open source" investigations are just not your thing :

See, there we have an ad hominem, claiming I said things that I didn't. This is why I let some of the things Lurk writes about you, through. And people should keep that in mind before complaining. The 'radical' members may cross the lines occasionally, but the 'conventional/conservative' members do so as well in less obvious ways. Never mind the fact that 'radical' is more useful than 'conventional/conservative' if we want to discuss real solutions to problems like AGW, and all the other global problems neoliberalism is causing.

In principle, investigative journalism is great (the label 'open source journalism' is just part of the hype). But in practice, not everything Bellingcat does, is my thing. Unlike you, I don't have to attack or defend anything 100%, which makes it easier to avoid traps where you have to engage in acrobatics to keep the contradictions separate in the brain. Like you just did in your discussions with Zizek wrt Higgins promoting some jihadist troll.

Not everything Bellingcat does - and especially what a narcissist like Eliot Higgins does - is the best thing since sliced bread, Rob. Higgins has made huge mistakes, is still making them, and his Twitter behaviour is appalling, undermining his credibility and trustworthiness in serious ways.

Quote
Now, what am I supposed to make of that response, Neven ?

Is my mind closed (2), as you suggest, or does your explanation simply does not make sense (1) ?

Exactly, that's the big question. In the meantime, we're both wasting our time.
Title: Re: The Media: Examples of Good AND Bad Journalism
Post by: Rob Dekker on November 05, 2018, 08:53:51 AM
Higgins has made huge mistakes, is still making them, and his Twitter behaviour is appalling, undermining his credibility and trustworthiness in serious ways.

Did he ? Name ONE mistake Higgins made. Because he has been spot-on in every one of his posts ever since he started blogging.

But once again : what is your problem with Higgins and Bellingcat ?
If you don't like the work they do, you could just leave it be.

But no, you HAVE TO attack Higgins and Bellingcat and open source investigations in general.

Why, Neven, why ?
Title: Re: The Media: Examples of Good AND Bad Journalism
Post by: Neven on November 05, 2018, 09:15:36 AM
Did he ? Name ONE mistake Higgins made. Because he has been spot-on in every one of his posts ever since he started blogging.

Asides from all the speculation, leaving stuff out that doesn't fit the narrative and ignoring possible alternatives, the biggest mistake Higgins made, was teaming up with neocon, war-mongering outfit the Atlantic Council.

All Higgins cares about, is getting attention. And probably money too.

Quote
But once again : what is your problem with Higgins and Bellingcat ?
If you don't like the work they do, you could just leave it be.

No problem, you just stop presenting it as the Holy Grail of journalism as a science.

Quote
Why, Neven, why ?

I've explained why multiple times. The fact that you can't accept my viewpoint, is your problem. Maybe you can ask Facebook and Twitter to suspend my accounts.
Title: Re: The Media: Examples of Good AND Bad Journalism
Post by: Rob Dekker on November 05, 2018, 09:57:50 AM
Did he ? Name ONE mistake Higgins made. Because he has been spot-on in every one of his posts ever since he started blogging.

Asides from all the speculation,

Can you give an example of any "speculation" by Higgins, which turned out to be wrong ?

Quote
leaving stuff out that doesn't fit the narrative and ignoring possible alternatives,

Can you give an example of where a "possible alternative" turned out to be right, and Higgins' statements turned out to be wrong ?

Quote
the biggest mistake Higgins made, was teaming up with neocon, war-mongering outfit the Atlantic Council.

I asked you this before : Can you give an example of an Atlantic Counsil report that is "war-mongering" ?

Quote
All Higgins cares about, is getting attention. And probably money too.

Or may it be that you are just jealous ?

Quote
Quote
But once again : what is your problem with Higgins and Bellingcat ?
If you don't like the work they do, you could just leave it be.

No problem, you just stop presenting it as the Holy Grail of journalism as a science.

But it is, Neven. It is.
Open source journalism is more powerful than traditional journalism, because we can all verify the evidence. Nobody can 'taint' the story because we can all verify the facts the story is based upon.

That's what makes open source investigations so powerful in separating truth from propaganda, and that's what makes Bellingcat a threat to all propaganda outlets.

For example, about MH17, there are a few guys in England taking on the entire Russian Ministry of Defense, using open source evidence to show the truth :
that Russia provided the BUK that downed MH17.

You gotta admit, that takes balls, and courage. And lots of open source evidence.

And if you don't respect that, I can only assume that you prefer the Russian propaganda over the truth.
Title: Re: The Media: Examples of Good AND Bad Journalism
Post by: mostly_lurking on November 05, 2018, 10:33:02 AM
I don't agree with TYT and Cenk on much today but this was 100% correct.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x8AB0CTdCbw
Title: Re: The Media: Examples of Good AND Bad Journalism
Post by: Neven on November 05, 2018, 11:51:34 AM
Thanks for sharing this, mostly_lurking. The long version popped in my YouTube recommended watching list, but it was too long for me. I didn't know Kulinski also did a summary. Cenk indeed nails it 100%. Elite media bubble, encompassing not just people working in media, but their followers as well.

And Kulinksi really nails it too (as he often does), especially towards the end:

Quote
Bernie Sanders is the most liked politician in America right now. How many establishment media pieces have you seen, getting people ready for Bernie's 2020 run? Where they talk about 'oh, he's so popular, he's selling out stadiums all over the place, his policy agenda polls overwhelmingly well, here, look at the numbers, 70% for his Medicare-for-all bill, 58% for his free college-bill, 58% for raising taxes on the rich'. When was the last time you saw an excited piece in mainstream media about Bernie Sanders, who is the most liked politician in the country, running in 2020? You haven't seen it? But we have seen it about Joe Biden. We have seen it about Cory Booker and Kamala Harris. Literally, we've seen it about them.

How do you explain that? You explain it by pointing out that the media hires safe mouthpieces for the establishment.
Title: Re: The Media: Examples of Good AND Bad Journalism
Post by: sidd on November 05, 2018, 09:36:08 PM
Lapham at lithub on plutocracy and politics in the USA:

"Trump is undoubtedly a menace, but he isn’t a surprise. His smug and self-satisfied face is the face of the way things are and have been in Washington and Wall Street for the last quarter of a century."

"Trump was there to say, and say it plainly, that money is power, and power, ladies and gentlemen, is not self-sacrificing or democratic. The big money cares for nothing other than itself, always has and always will. "

"A fair enough share of his fellow citizens screamed, stamped and voted in agreement because what he was saying they knew to be true, knew it not as precept borrowed from the collected works of V.I. Lenin or Ralph Lauren but from their own downwardly mobile experience on the losing side of a class war waged over the past 40 years by America’s increasingly frightened and selfish rich against its increasingly angry and debtbound poor."

"Trump is president of the United States, and what in 1988 was a weakened but still operational democracy has become a dysfunctional, stupefied plutocracy. "

"The nation’s political discourse meanwhile has dwindled into the staging of election campaigns with candidates prized for the gift of saying nothing. Forbidden the use of words apt to disturb a Gallup poll or offend a bagman, they stand and serve as product placements for concentrated wealth, their quality to be inferred from the cost of their manufacture. "

“The fundamental division of powers in the Constitution of the United States is between voters on the one hand and property owners on the other. The forces of democracy on the one side . . . and the forces of property on the other side.”

"At no moment in its history has the country not been nailed to a cross of gold. "

 “those who own the country ought to govern it.”

"Faith in democracy survived the assassination of President John F. Kennedy in 1963; it didn’t survive the assassinations of Robert Kennedy and Martin Luther King in 1968. "

"The visual order of print sustains a sequence of cause and effect, tells a story with a beginning, middle and end. The speed of light spreads stories that run around in circles, eliminate the dimensions of space and time, construct a world in which nothing follows from anything else. Sequence becomes additive instead of causative, “Graphic Man” replaces “Typographic Man,” and the images of government become a government of images."

"the amassment of wealth and the acquisition of power follows from the naming of things rather than from the making of them. The future is a product to be sold, not a story to be told."

"Advertising is the voice of money talking to money"

"Typographic Man wrote the Constitution and the Gettysburg Address; Graphic Man elects the president of the United States. "

"The comic book hero won the comic book election."

"The excellence of Mark Zuckerberg is the excellence of Donald Trump, product placements of concentrated wealth but also embodiments of the spirit of an age ... "

"What can be said about the big money can also be said about technology: it cares for nothing other than itself, collects and stores the dots but connects them only to other dots ... Siri, Watson and Alexa can access the Library of Congress, but they don’t read the books. "

" ...  if left to its own devices, the Dionysian god in the machine of creatively annihilating capitalism must devour and destroy the earth. Not with malice aforethought, but because it is a machine, and like all machines knows not what else to do."

Read the whole thing:

https://lithub.com/lewis-lapham-of-america-and-the-rise-of-the-stupefied-plutocrat/2/?single=true

sidd
Title: Re: The Media: Examples of Good AND Bad Journalism
Post by: Rob Dekker on November 06, 2018, 09:30:37 AM
Neven, can you please finish what you started, and provide some evidence for your claims against open source journalism, Bellingcat and Higgins specifically.

Here is what you claimed but have not substantiated yet :

Neven on November 05, 2018, 08:18:28 AM said :
Quote
Higgins has made huge mistakes, is still making them, and his Twitter behaviour is appalling, undermining his credibility and trustworthiness in serious ways.

Did he ? Name ONE mistake Higgins made. Because he has been spot-on in every one of his posts ever since he started blogging.

Asides from all the speculation,

Can you give an example of any "speculation" by Higgins, which turned out to be wrong ?

Quote
leaving stuff out that doesn't fit the narrative and ignoring possible alternatives,

Can you give an example of where a "possible alternative" turned out to be right, and Higgins' statements turned out to be wrong ?

Quote
the biggest mistake Higgins made, was teaming up with neocon, war-mongering outfit the Atlantic Council.

I asked you this before : Can you give an example of an Atlantic Counsil report that is "war-mongering" ?

Quote
All Higgins cares about, is getting attention. And probably money too.

Or may it be that you are just jealous ?

Quote
Quote
But once again : what is your problem with Higgins and Bellingcat ?
If you don't like the work they do, you could just leave it be.

No problem, you just stop presenting it as the Holy Grail of journalism as a science.

But it is, Neven. It is.
Open source journalism is more powerful than traditional journalism, because we can all verify the evidence. Nobody can 'taint' the story because we can all verify the facts the story is based upon.

That's what makes open source investigations so powerful in separating truth from propaganda, and that's what makes Bellingcat a threat to all propaganda, left or right.

Is that why you attack Bellingcat, Neven ?
Title: Re: The Media: Examples of Good AND Bad Journalism
Post by: Neven on November 06, 2018, 09:37:30 AM
You nailed it, Rob. You've proven it scientifically.
Title: Re: The Media: Examples of Good AND Bad Journalism
Post by: Rob Dekker on November 06, 2018, 09:48:16 AM
You nailed it, Rob. You've proven it scientifically.

I did ? That doesn't make any sense.

I just asked questions about your claims... which you did not yet answer...

The issue is that I don't understand why you are so negative about open source journalism, Bellingcat and Higgins, and why you are so ultra-skeptical of the work they present (to the point where you don't accept it at all. None of it).

I don't get that kind of ultra-bias against Bellingcat, Neven, and I think it is worthwhile if you would explain your position in more detail.

Hence these questions about your claims...
Title: Re: The Media: Examples of Good AND Bad Journalism
Post by: Neven on November 06, 2018, 10:13:25 AM
Rob, I've answered those questions thoroughly before. What use is there in answering them again, if you won't even acknowledge them, let alone remember what I said? You simply don't want to hear anything outside of your bubble. I can't help you with that.
Title: Re: The Media: Examples of Good AND Bad Journalism
Post by: Hefaistos on November 06, 2018, 10:50:00 AM
... I can't help you with that.

Neven, remains to help yourself.
Title: Re: The Media: Examples of Good AND Bad Journalism
Post by: Rob Dekker on November 07, 2018, 07:02:42 AM
Rob, I've answered those questions thoroughly before. What use is there in answering them again, if you won't even acknowledge them, let alone remember what I said? You simply don't want to hear anything outside of your bubble. I can't help you with that.

But Neven, you did NOT answer ANY of these questions.
Let me state them once more :

- Can you give an example of any "speculation" by Higgins, which turned out to be wrong ?

- Can you give an example of where a "possible alternative" turned out to be right, and Higgins' statements turned out to be wrong ?

and

- Can you give an example of an Atlantic Council report that is "war-mongering" ?

Let me remind you that these questions are directly on your claims about Bellingcat and open source journalism. Should be easy for you to answer if you meant what you said.
Title: Re: The Media: Examples of Good AND Bad Journalism
Post by: Neven on November 07, 2018, 09:04:10 AM
Rob, I've answered those questions thoroughly before. What use is there in answering them again, if you won't even acknowledge them, let alone remember what I said? You simply don't want to hear anything outside of your bubble. I can't help you with that.

But Neven, you did NOT answer ANY of these questions.
Let me state them once more :

- Can you give an example of any "speculation" by Higgins, which turned out to be wrong ?

- Can you give an example of where a "possible alternative" turned out to be right, and Higgins' statements turned out to be wrong ?

and

- Can you give an example of an Atlantic Council report that is "war-mongering" ?

Let me remind you that these questions are directly on your claims about Bellingcat and open source journalism. Should be easy for you to answer if you meant what you said.

Others have posted a multitude of links discussing these things. I can spend hours and hours, looking for details that corroborate my statements, but you will simply ignore everything.

The problem is that with many issues we will simply never know the truth, which is why people can and do spin facts to fit their narratives. And even when the truth comes out eventually, most people either don't care or fall back to denial mode.

Here's science:
Bellingcat supports the war-mongering, arms-selling NATO narrative + Rob Dekker loves Bellingcat = Rob Dekker supports the war-mongering, arms-selling NATO narrative

Conclusion of this thread: BAD journalism is good when it supports the GOOD narrative. Either you're with us, or you're with the terrorists. Show us scientific proof that you're not.
Title: Re: The Media: Examples of Good AND Bad Journalism
Post by: Rob Dekker on November 07, 2018, 09:10:22 AM
Rob, I've answered those questions thoroughly before. What use is there in answering them again, if you won't even acknowledge them, let alone remember what I said? You simply don't want to hear anything outside of your bubble. I can't help you with that.

But Neven, you did NOT answer ANY of these questions.
Let me state them once more :

- Can you give an example of any "speculation" by Higgins, which turned out to be wrong ?

- Can you give an example of where a "possible alternative" turned out to be right, and Higgins' statements turned out to be wrong ?

and

- Can you give an example of an Atlantic Council report that is "war-mongering" ?

Let me remind you that these questions are directly on your claims about Bellingcat and open source journalism. Should be easy for you to answer if you meant what you said.

Others have posted a multitude of links discussing these things. I can spend hours and hours, looking for details that corroborate my statements, but you will simply ignore everything.

So far you have spend a lot of time avoiding these questions, but no time actually answering them.
Title: Re: The Media: Examples of Good AND Bad Journalism
Post by: Martin Gisser on November 07, 2018, 02:54:02 PM
Rob, I've answered those questions thoroughly before. What use is there in answering them again, if you won't even acknowledge them, let alone remember what I said? You simply don't want to hear anything outside of your bubble. I can't help you with that.

But Neven, you did NOT answer ANY of these questions.
Let me state them once more :

- Can you give an example of any "speculation" by Higgins, which turned out to be wrong ?

- Can you give an example of where a "possible alternative" turned out to be right, and Higgins' statements turned out to be wrong ?

and

- Can you give an example of an Atlantic Council report that is "war-mongering" ?

Let me remind you that these questions are directly on your claims about Bellingcat and open source journalism. Should be easy for you to answer if you meant what you said.

Others have posted a multitude of links discussing these things.
(...)
Links to RT? Jimmy Dore? Hahaaaaahaha... Else, no links, just parroting transparent smear. Maybe something got lost in between Lurk's epic ramblings, but all I recall is Russian propaganda bullshit against Bellingcat.

Now pretty please, I also want to see something serious. After all that texting it would be fair to recap some of your substantiated criticisms. Then we can move on.
Title: Re: The Media: Examples of Good AND Bad Journalism
Post by: sidd on November 08, 2018, 12:36:49 AM
gooface wins the election:

“What they wanted to see was how many ads could they put on digital without people getting really upset.”

"Digital ad spending rose more than 25-fold from the last non-presidential national elections in 2014, reaching 20 percent of expected political spending this year at almost $1.8 billion, according to estimates compiled by Borrell. Kantar Media/CMAG, which omits some online activity, estimated 2018 online spending at $900 million, up from $250 million four years ago."

"Texas Democrat Beto O’Rourke was the biggest political spender on Facebook, placing $7 million in ads, according to a tally presented online by the social media giant. President Donald Trump’s Make America Great Again Committee was the No. 2 spender, at $3.4 million, and the Trump presidential campaign spent an additional $2.6 million ..."

"Facebook said it has reaped $354 million from more than 2 million ads. Google alone took in about $74.7 million on ads that mentioned federal candidates or incumbents since the end of May 2018 ..."

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2018-11-06/facebook-google-are-election-ad-winners-despite-meddling-outcry

sidd
Title: Re: The Media: Examples of Good AND Bad Journalism
Post by: Neven on November 08, 2018, 09:16:50 AM
And how much was spent on Cambridge Analytica-type stuff?
Title: Re: The Media: Examples of Good AND Bad Journalism
Post by: NevB on November 08, 2018, 01:25:41 PM
Bad Journalism, does that include when the administration releases a doctored video ?

https://twitter.com/aymanndotcom/status/1060407290472398849 (https://twitter.com/aymanndotcom/status/1060407290472398849)

Quote
The intern's reach for the mic is slowed down, and the "chop" motion is accelerated. Here's an annotated side by side comparison:

Here's the video released by Sarah Sanders:
https://twitter.com/PressSec/status/1060374680991883265 (https://twitter.com/PressSec/status/1060374680991883265)


Title: Re: The Media: Examples of Good AND Bad Journalism
Post by: mostly_lurking on November 08, 2018, 04:15:36 PM
Bad Journalism, does that include when the administration releases a doctored video ?

https://twitter.com/aymanndotcom/status/1060407290472398849 (https://twitter.com/aymanndotcom/status/1060407290472398849)

Quote
The intern's reach for the mic is slowed down, and the "chop" motion is accelerated. Here's an annotated side by side comparison:

Here's the video released by Sarah Sanders:
https://twitter.com/PressSec/status/1060374680991883265 (https://twitter.com/PressSec/status/1060374680991883265)

Meh. Acosta was being an ass. Sarah took the video from the wrong source I guess but I doubt it was intentional.

EDIT : relevant.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yru2Ppx_xCw&app=desktop
Title: Re: The Media: Examples of Good AND Bad Journalism
Post by: Buddy on November 08, 2018, 09:37:45 PM
More blood on the hands of FOX News hosts like Laura Ingraha, Sean Hannity, Tucker Carlson, and others at FOX.  When will FOX stop lying about reasonable gun control?

Donald Trump wants churches to have guns.  Now I suppose Trump and his enablers at FOX want waitresses to carry guns.

When will FOX News stop campaigning for Donald Trump?  When will FOX stop enabling Donald Trump?  When will FOX stop lying about global warming?

FOX News:  “Where truth and journalism are dead.”
Title: Re: The Media: Examples of Good AND Bad Journalism
Post by: Rob Dekker on November 09, 2018, 09:46:03 AM
Bad Journalism, does that include when the administration releases a doctored video ?

https://twitter.com/aymanndotcom/status/1060407290472398849 (https://twitter.com/aymanndotcom/status/1060407290472398849)

Quote
The intern's reach for the mic is slowed down, and the "chop" motion is accelerated. Here's an annotated side by side comparison:

Here's the video released by Sarah Sanders:
https://twitter.com/PressSec/status/1060374680991883265 (https://twitter.com/PressSec/status/1060374680991883265)

Spot on NevB.
This is another close look at this :

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nhuHGxWj-0U

It's pretty clear the WH doctored the video.
Title: Re: The Media: Examples of Good AND Bad Journalism
Post by: mostly_lurking on November 09, 2018, 10:15:10 AM

It's pretty clear the WH doctored the video.
One more time- it wasn't the WH. And Acosta was being an ass.
Title: Re: The Media: Examples of Good AND Bad Journalism
Post by: Buddy on November 09, 2018, 01:09:16 PM
There is NOTHING that is below lying fake Christian Sarah Huckabee.  Nothing.  I hope she enjoys her last year/months lying from the podium.  The good thing for her is that FOX News is always looking for a few fake Christians to lie for them.  She should have no problem working for them.  She will fit in perfectly.
Title: Re: The Media: Examples of Good AND Bad Journalism
Post by: NevB on November 09, 2018, 01:24:07 PM

It's pretty clear the WH doctored the video.
One more time- it wasn't the WH. And Acosta was being an ass.

It wasn't the Whitehouse but they still haven't apologised for peddling a lie or admitted their mistake. Yet here you are defending them.

What you are defending is a would be tyrant who is trying to overpower one of the fundamental pillars of democracy. Until now the executive was answerable to the people in some way, Trump would like the US to become more like Putin's Russia where journalist who ask difficult questions are murdered. If people don't stand up to him this is what will happen and those that enable him in any way must be opposed.

PS Don't bother with a reply to me, I have had my say and just don't have time to waste on you.



Title: Re: The Media: Examples of Good AND Bad Journalism
Post by: NevB on November 09, 2018, 03:40:08 PM
Trump would like the US to become more like Putin's Russia where journalist who ask difficult questions are murdered.

Oh really?
President Trump would like journalists who ask difficult questions murdered.
How nice of you to say so.

I sure do hope the NSA has 'your number' and are keeping an eye on you ..... and I do hope Neven didn't 'cull' my little comment on Paranoia. Such basic education to raise awareness really is needed imo.

Noted: You can't quote me without subtly changing my words

Also noted is that a comparison of Trumps direction and Putin's reality is what lights your fire.

As for your subtle threat about the NSA I think I'm OK as long as I don't mention Bomb, President, IED, attack, plane, Jihad, Allah, Plutonium or detonator especially in one sentence and post that online. And as for paranoia I use my real name and my profile has my E-Mail address with my domain that is easily traceable. I have nothing to hide do you?   

What's your real name Lurk?, what are your hiding from from?
Title: Re: The Media: Examples of Good AND Bad Journalism
Post by: Rob Dekker on November 10, 2018, 05:18:36 AM
Trump would like the US to become more like Putin's Russia where journalist who ask difficult questions are murdered.

Oh really?
President Trump would like journalists who ask difficult questions murdered.
How nice of you to say so.

I sure do hope the NSA has 'your number' and are keeping an eye on you ..... and I do hope Neven didn't 'cull' my little comment on Paranoia. Such basic education to raise awareness really is needed imo.

Noted: You can't quote me without subtly changing my words

Are you like, OK or ill or what?

I did quote your words ... verbatim in the QUOTE without any change at all - can you see that maybe?   

If you quote somebody, don't cut out a part.

It changes the meaning.

And don't call people "ill or what". It's not nice and it distracts.

And what the heck is with the "I sure do hope the NSA has 'your number' and are keeping an eye on you" remark ? What are you trying to say here, Lurk ?
Title: Re: The Media: Examples of Good AND Bad Journalism
Post by: Rob Dekker on November 11, 2018, 10:41:30 AM
Let's take a look at that statement by Sanders.
Here is the Daily Beast article that Dore is talking about :

https://www.thedailybeast.com/bernie-sanders-on-andrew-gillium-and-stacey-abrams-many-whites-uncomfortable-voting-for-black-candidates?ref=scroll

With this particular quote of interest :

Quote
“I think you know there are a lot of white folks out there who are not necessarily racist who felt uncomfortable for the first time in their lives about whether or not they wanted to vote for an African-American,” Sanders told The Daily Beast, referencing the close contests involving Andrew Gillum in Florida and Stacey Abrams in Georgia and ads run against the two. “I think next time around, by the way, it will be a lot easier for them to do that.”

Now, I don't see anything "racist" in Sanders' statements, not more than I see anything "racist" in the Daily Beast reporting of it.

Seems to me that Dore (and Lurk by extension) is overreacting, exaggerating and mis-informing. Again.
Title: Re: The Media: Examples of Good AND Bad Journalism
Post by: Rob Dekker on November 11, 2018, 10:51:06 AM
Neven has been Gaslighted so many times by posters here that I'm surprised he doesn't look like a piece of toast. Actually, could you post a recent photo Neven so I can be sure about that. I might be wrong. :)

Can you give ONE example of where Neven was supposedly "gaslighted" ?
Title: Re: The Media: Examples of Good AND Bad Journalism
Post by: NevB on November 12, 2018, 02:32:14 PM
I wasn't intending to post anything else here, as I don't have the time or inclination for replies.

But then this tempted me: 

https://thinkprogress.org/kellyanne-video-acosta-sports-replay-fe6ad3211268/?utm_campaign=trueAnthem:+Trending+Content&utm_content=5be96b5c04d3016e1ca77980&utm_medium=trueAnthem&utm_source=twitter (https://thinkprogress.org/kellyanne-video-acosta-sports-replay-fe6ad3211268/?utm_campaign=trueAnthem:+Trending+Content&utm_content=5be96b5c04d3016e1ca77980&utm_medium=trueAnthem&utm_source=twitter)

Quote
“Oh, well that’s not altered, that’s sped up,” said Conway of the altered video, somehow managing to keep a straight face. The dictionary definition of the word “altered” is to be “made different in some way.”

Quote
“They do it all the time in sports to see if there’s actually a first down or a touchdown,” she told Wallace. “I have to disagree with the overwrought description of this video being doctored as if we put somebody else’s arm in there.”

Obviously the "bad" journalism was created by the administration but it's their use of this "bad" journalism and the attacks on "good" journalism (especially the incitement of violence and the outright support of the politician that assaulted a journalist) that I see as a gravely dangerous.

IMHO: If this is to continue and Trump managers another term (which is not at all impossible) then there is a decent chance that the media will no longer be free to criticise the administration and the incitement to violence along with more violent acts will begin to have the desired effect.
Then without any kind of restraint this could become a permanent situation.


Also as a final note:

The two paragraphs above are just my observation and the quote below was I guess just bait for Russian apologists while although true doesn't help this discussion proceed. This comes from deep frustration with the way Russia's behaviour is dismissed, denied, excused or even held as equivalent to US actions here and the what I see as a need to warn of the consequences.

However as I said above I don't have the time, attitude, firsthand knowledge or inclination to get involved in this debate as there are others far more capable. I don't intend to post any more here as this will only degenerate into useless distracting flame wars (which would suit anyone wanting to see this place disrupted).

Quote
Trump would like the US to become more like Putin's Russia where journalist who ask difficult questions are murdered.

(which BTW is not

Quote
President Trump would like journalists who ask difficult questions murdered.
)

Have at it, I'll will be watching silently.




Title: Re: The Media: Examples of Good AND Bad Journalism
Post by: Rob Dekker on November 13, 201