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Author Topic: If not Capitalism... then What? And, How?  (Read 298214 times)

Sigmetnow

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Re: If not Capitalism... then What? And, How?
« Reply #600 on: June 04, 2018, 05:12:27 PM »
Thanks for the handy charts, Sleepy!

Hey Sig, I just started that book about BS jobs. If you read it, let me know. Maybe it's worth a separate thread?

Thinking too much about BS jobs makes me depressed.  But I’ll admit I’m curious about the book.  Have downloaded a sample; with luck that’s enough to at least keep me off the Golgafrinchan ‘B Ark’ ship. ;) ;D

http://hitchhikers.wikia.com/wiki/Golgafrinchan_Ark_Fleet_Ship_B
« Last Edit: June 04, 2018, 10:13:33 PM by Sigmetnow »
People who say it cannot be done should not interrupt those who are doing it.

oren

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Re: If not Capitalism... then What? And, How?
« Reply #601 on: June 05, 2018, 04:09:06 PM »
So I've just taken a very deep breath and dared to swim through the sewage of the last 130 messages on this thread. Now I understand the background behind some of the crazy battles going on in other threads on the forum, as a spillover from the discussion here.

Ask yourself this - is there anyone here who wouldn't be happy if changes were made in economy and government to reduce GHG emissions and other environmental damages? Is there anyone here who wouldn't want an accelerated deployment of solutions, a "Marshall Plan" of sorts? Is there anyone here who thinks that what humanity as a whole (or any specific country) is doing is good enough? Fast enough? Will prevent all damage from climate change and planetary degradation?

Ask yourself this - is it better to deploy solar and wind but in too-small too-slow amounts, or not to deploy them at all? Is it better to develop EVs or not develop them at all? Of course it would be better if people consumed less, were less greedy, had less babies, walked and biked everywhere, etc., but human nature is a strong motivating factor, and until people change, the system changes, a miracle happens, whatever, maybe achieving incremental change is better than no change at all.

The discussion turns round and round between those who say the system is not good enough, but are powerless to change it as there is no public support. And those who say that the public has been hijacked by the system. And those who say that we are killing ourselves, and the market approach is way too slow. And those who say that we have to work with the system, the public and the market we got and try to at least achieve incremental change.
All of the above is true. We are royally f***ed. It's just an issue of focusing on different aspects of the same problem. So why all the belligerence and almost-hatred here and elsewhere on the forum? We are all hurtling down the same chute into oblivion, and are all powerless to stop it. Some are focusing on the bad, some are focusing on the good (what little of it).

If what is bothering you is that some people believe that not all is lost, chill out. A handful of decades will decide the issue, and you could say in hindsight you were right. Relax. Screaming at other environmentalists but of different varieties in an obscure forum is a childish way of venting the justified anger and frustration we are all feeling.

And in case anyone is wondering why I bothered to go into a thread which I find unproductive, and ended up posting a long-winded oratory, blame the recent unread topics list that can't separate the chaff from the wheat.
« Last Edit: June 05, 2018, 04:15:54 PM by oren »

Bruce Steele

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Re: If not Capitalism... then What? And, How?
« Reply #602 on: June 05, 2018, 05:59:40 PM »
Oren, I come here to listen, mostly lately. I am getting lazy because i find myself filtering out names ,  I haven't blocked anyone but there are names I just read over. In the longer haul I much value what so many well argued members of this forum have to say. It used to be easy and seemed so cordial .
 I would like to say I value your opinion, it is worth seeking out .
  Just a paranoid thought but if AI was malicious wouldn't it be easy enough to break up a cordial conversation , inject malice and with the tenacity of bots crush civil conversation ?

Shared Humanity

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Re: If not Capitalism... then What? And, How?
« Reply #603 on: June 05, 2018, 06:15:27 PM »
Oren...I resemble that remark. I think it springs from fear for my children and grandchildren. Slow and steady improvement will deliver a world of hurt and I can't help but feel responsible.

Bob Wallace

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Re: If not Capitalism... then What? And, How?
« Reply #604 on: June 05, 2018, 08:40:19 PM »
Oren, insightful and well written post.  Thanks.

I don't think you quite captured my position here so let me try to spell it out in case anyone is interested in hearing it.

Quote
The discussion turns round and round between those who say the system is not good enough, but are powerless to change it as there is no public support. And those who say that the public has been hijacked by the system. And those who say that we are killing ourselves, and the market approach is way too slow. And those who say that we have to work with the system, the public and the market we got and try to at least achieve incremental change.

The 'system' is not good enough.  Power to radically change the system is very hard to come by.  Over time we push the system to become better, having to accept backward steps at times.

The market system is too slow.  At least obviously too slow to stop all climate change seeing that we are already experiencing climate change.

Might the market system be fast enough to save us from extreme climate change?  Perhaps.  Anyone watching what is happening in energy and transmission sees moves away from fossil fuels to renewable energy based on economics alone.  Slowly now, but accelerating.

Should we leave it to the market and hope the market saves our bacon?  Nope.  We should do what we can to help push things along faster.

Should we embrace incremental change?  Absolutely.  That's pretty much how and progress is made.  It's always incremental, just a question of how fast we move from one step to the next on our way to the goal.

I think people need to look for improvements, for incremental changes.  That can help to keep one from becoming depressed and non-functional.  And it can help us each spot places where we might be able to put our shoulder to the wheel and give a helpful shove.


Neven

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Re: If not Capitalism... then What? And, How?
« Reply #605 on: June 05, 2018, 11:04:07 PM »
Quote
Should we leave it to the market and hope the market saves our bacon?  Nope.  We should do what we can to help push things along faster.

Should we embrace incremental change?  Absolutely.  That's pretty much how and progress is made.  It's always incremental, just a question of how fast we move from one step to the next on our way to the goal.

I think people need to look for improvements, for incremental changes.  That can help to keep one from becoming depressed and non-functional.  And it can help us each spot places where we might be able to put our shoulder to the wheel and give a helpful shove.

You need to push the Overton window to make the increments as large as possible. A bit like Trump doing his deals. Power concedes nothing without a demand. It never did and it never will.

But anyway, I'm unsubscribing from this topic as well, so I can focus on the Arctic. Despite the cordial being less cordial, I still enjoyed the discussions here. Communities are always changing, especially online. It doesn't necessarily have to be a bad thing.
The enemy is within
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sidd

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Re: If not Capitalism... then What? And, How?
« Reply #606 on: June 06, 2018, 12:07:54 AM »
Free market except in labor: No wage gains, but more jobs than officially unemployed. Pay 'em more ? No way !

https://www.cnbc.com/2018/06/05/there-are-more-jobs-than-people-out-of-work.html

sidd

Susan Anderson

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Re: If not Capitalism... then What? And, How?
« Reply #607 on: June 06, 2018, 03:41:57 PM »
THANK YOU OREN!!!!

Shared Humanity

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Re: If not Capitalism... then What? And, How?
« Reply #608 on: June 06, 2018, 06:28:41 PM »
Each and every one of us has complete free will. We actively choose to live in the manner that we do. We provide ourselves reasons for making the choices we do.

What you actually mean to say is that any choice we make has consequences and it is our insistence on avoiding consequences that causes us to feel manipulated and constrained.

Bob Wallace

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Re: If not Capitalism... then What? And, How?
« Reply #609 on: June 06, 2018, 07:17:18 PM »
Quote
Each and every one of us has complete free will.

If we're going to discuss religious issues how about that goes to a more appropriate area of the site?


Sleepy

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Re: If not Capitalism... then What? And, How?
« Reply #610 on: June 07, 2018, 06:22:00 AM »
The circular economy – a powerful force for climate mitigation
https://www.sitra.fi/en/publications/circular-economy-powerful-force-climate-mitigation/
Quote
This report investigates how a more circular economy can contribute to cutting CO2 emissions. It explores a broad range of opportunities for the four largest materials in terms of emissions (steel, plastics, aluminium, and cement) and two large use segments for these materials (passenger cars and buildings).

The key conclusion is that a more circular economy can make deep cuts to emissions from heavy industry: in an ambitious scenario, as much as 296 million tons CO2 per year in the EU by 2050, out of 530 Mt in total – and some 3.6 billion tonnes per year globally. Making better use of the materials that already exist in the economy thus can take EU industry halfway towards net-zero emissions. Moreover, doing so often is economically attractive. Initiatives for a more circular economy therefore deserve a central place in EU climate and industrial policy.
PDF in the link.
Omnia mirari, etiam tritissima.
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Science is a jealous mistress and takes little account of a man's feelings.

zizek

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Re: If not Capitalism... then What? And, How?
« Reply #611 on: June 09, 2018, 09:50:43 PM »
Incrementalism in America........


Are we getting paid more? Some people are.



At least gadgets are getting cheaper! Hopefully they don't end up in the oceans




All in all, a steady rise in poverty. Can't wait for the next recession




I can't wait to retire. Hopefully this century




Thank god I'm not black




Bonus incrementalism

zizek

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Re: If not Capitalism... then What? And, How?
« Reply #612 on: June 09, 2018, 10:30:49 PM »
Conditions are going to continue to deteriorate. And capitalism will continue to thrive. There is no incentive to change the system when it's working for the people in charge.

Maybe climate change will unlock the secret to incremental progress. But I'm not holding my breath.

There will be  progress to reduce emissions through EVs and renewable under capitalism. I have no doubts about that. But capitalism's inherent exploitative qualities is bringing about immense social and economic instability. The rise of populism of Trump, Italy, Brexit, Ford, etc is a sign of things to come.  Any progress we make can just as easily be taken away.

SteveMDFP

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Re: If not Capitalism... then What? And, How?
« Reply #613 on: June 09, 2018, 11:41:09 PM »
Incrementalism in America........


Are we getting paid more? Some people are.

Thanks for presenting these, zizek.  Thoroughly depressing trends all around.  In several cases, I hadn't realized how much worse some of these measures had become.

zizek

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Re: If not Capitalism... then What? And, How?
« Reply #614 on: June 10, 2018, 06:11:10 PM »
I’ve been thinking a lot about the concessions we are willing to make in the name of climate change. It’s something that is terrifying me.  I’ll use Saudi Arabia as an example of what I’m talking about. 

Saudi Arabia, the ultra-wealthy Wahhabist ethnostate, exerts its influence in the middle east through genocidal violence and state-sponsored terrorism. Saudi Arabia is currently starving the entire nation of Yemen to death.  The kingdom of Mohammed bin Salman can only be described as evil and tyrannically.

https://www.jacobinmag.com/2017/11/trump-russia-bush-saudi-arabia
https://www.mintpressnews.com/un-10-million-more-yemenis-expected-to-starve-to-death-by-end-of-year/242906/


Additionally, Saudi Arabia uses migrants as sex slaves and forced labour to construct its extravagant high rises, malls, and more than likely its renewable projects.

https://www.cnn.com/2013/04/09/world/meast/mideast-migrant-workers/index.html
https://www.thedailybeast.com/inside-the-world-of-gulf-state-slavery


And what criticism do we offer when Saudi announces a new renewable project? Well, nothing.  We celebrate it. You will not find a single article on a Saudi renewable project that describes the abuses and exploitation conducted in Saudi Arabia. Nobody is willing to confront the horrors and baggage that comes with any projects in Saudi Arabia. And maybe it’s not our place to really criticize Saudi Arabia, because these abuses will happen either way. Renewables or not.  So at least the suffering is directed to something good I suppose.

But the problem is that western institutions are supporting it. Even firms like KPMG, which claim to be socially and environmentally conscious, are supporting Saudi Arabia. Softbank, a Japanese firm, is partnering on their new mega solar project. Western banks are advising on Saudi’s ACWA power IPO, which will undoubtedly attract western investment when they go public. So what does that mean?

https://www.cnbc.com/2018/03/27/softbank-and-saudi-arabia-announce-new-solar-power-generation-project.html
https://home.kpmg.com/uk/en/home/insights/2017/03/saudi-arabias-vision-2030-life-after-oil.html
https://www.reuters.com/article/us-saudi-acwa-pwr-ipo/saudi-acwa-power-picks-jpmorgan-citi-for-ipo-sources-idUSKBN1GH1EZ


Basically, we have western banks and corporations getting paid in dirty blood oil money to build renewable projects using forced labour.  The lack of protest against Softbank, KPMG, banks etc suggest that it is an acceptable strategy to invest in renewable projects even if it supports fascism. And because neoliberalism has allowed the consolidation of companies into massive globalized conglomerates, the dealings of companies like Softbank, Citibank, JPMorgan, or KPMG represent a worldwide strategy for investment.

In other words, we already seeing a global phenomenon of surrendering human rights to further the cause of climate change. 

And it is so convenient for these companies. They have already profited immensely from fossil fuel investment and services. And for many banks, they’ll actually make money divesting from fossil fuels through fees.  And now they will make even more money by shifting capital into renewables (with bonus huge government subsidies). And the best part is… the cherry on the top…. Is they can do whatever they want.  Investing in renewables is an incredibly effective method of greenwashing their past and present deals.  They can get away from causing climate change, and they can get away with further inflicting suffering. So long as it decarbonizes our society.

Even on this forum you see the cult-like reverence for the hyper-capitalist Elon Musk. Criticism of Musk is quickly deflected as “trolls” or “fossil fuel lies”.  No such thing as a wrong path towards a green future.  We are willing to accept anything, no matter the cost.  Which, for the capitalist, is perfect…





 

Susan Anderson

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Re: If not Capitalism... then What? And, How?
« Reply #615 on: June 11, 2018, 05:02:54 PM »
Anybody who thought Musk was OK (though, like most humans he's a mixed bag) should take a gander at this horror:

https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2018/jun/10/a-great-item-to-have-flamethrowers-sell-like-hot-cakes-at-elon-musk-sale

Quote
'A great item to have': flamethrowers sell like hot cakes at Elon Musk sale

The tech billionaire urges buyers to act responsibly as dozens queue up to get their hands on the $500 weapons

Many planned to resell the flamethrowers, which are already fetching more than $2,000 on eBay. “Anything Elon Musk does is a collector’s item,” said Alex Shame, 52, an engineer.

Tudor Melville, 62, who owns an electrical company, drove his Tesla from Arizona to collect 10 flamethrowers, nine of which he plans to sell.

Children probably should not use them, he said. “Well, as long as they point in the air, it’s fine.” He added: “My family thinks I’m nuts.”

Some misuse is inevitable, said buyers. “No doubt there’ll be some bad eggs out there who do something stupid,” said Carrillo.

Tabula, the fire-loving entrepreneur, said he had “a bad feeling” about abuses. That might explain, he said, why the Boring Company told customers to not open the boxes “until we were way off the premises”.

My personal pet peeve (along with city buildings heavily lit up all night) is leaf blowers. If it's noisy and burns lots of fossil fuels and stinks, your neighbors love it (and their underpaid yard laborers too). Overgrown kids with dangerous toys, who don't care ... yuck!

Sigmetnow

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Re: If not Capitalism... then What? And, How?
« Reply #616 on: June 14, 2018, 06:13:23 PM »
No ‘What’ or ‘How’... but definitely the ‘Not’:  a respected investor says, “Capitalism is killing the planet and needs to change”

Quote
Jeremy Grantham, the longtime investor famous for calling the last two major bubbles in the market, is urging capitalists and "mainstream economists" to recognize the looming threat of climate change.

"Capitalism and mainstream economics simply cannot deal with these problems. Mainstream economics largely ignore [them]," Grantham, who co-founded GMO in 1977, said Tuesday in an impassioned speech at the Morningstar Investment Conference in Chicago. "We deforest the land, we degrade our soils, we pollute and overuse our water and we treat air like an open sewer, and we do it all off the balance sheet."

This negligence is due in large part to how short-sighted corporations can be, Grantham said. "Anything that happens to a corporation over 25 years out doesn't exist for them, therefore, as I like to say, grandchildren have no value" to them, he said.
https://www.cnbc.com/2018/06/13/gmos-grantham-capitalists-need-to-wake-up-to-climate-change-reality.html
People who say it cannot be done should not interrupt those who are doing it.

Bob Wallace

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Re: If not Capitalism... then What? And, How?
« Reply #617 on: June 14, 2018, 06:41:27 PM »
The solution here is to regulate more tightly.  If cleaner air, cleaner water, and avoiding extreme climate change are valuable to us then we need to establish regulations that control the behavior of companies.

Put a price on pollution and greenhouse emissions and capitalism and mainstream economics will deal with these problems.

Sigmetnow

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Re: If not Capitalism... then What? And, How?
« Reply #618 on: June 14, 2018, 06:46:41 PM »
The solution here is to regulate more tightly.  If cleaner air, cleaner water, and avoiding extreme climate change are valuable to us then we need to establish regulations that control the behavior of companies.

Put a price on pollution and greenhouse emissions and capitalism and mainstream economics will deal with these problems.

Valid points.
People who say it cannot be done should not interrupt those who are doing it.

sidd

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Re: If not Capitalism... then What? And, How?
« Reply #619 on: June 16, 2018, 07:25:24 AM »
Putting a price on fossil carbon emissions is a great idea. Now, who will bell the cat ? Remember, free market (ha! call me when you find one) also trades in regulators and politicians.

sidd

Bob Wallace

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Re: If not Capitalism... then What? And, How?
« Reply #620 on: June 16, 2018, 09:06:25 AM »
Quote
Should I vote for the greens this autumn?

In what country?

gerontocrat

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Re: If not Capitalism... then What? And, How?
« Reply #621 on: June 16, 2018, 12:54:26 PM »
BAU environmentalists who wish to keep flying world wide, will never bell any cat.

Don't know of any "free market", here's how our politicians dance:
https://forum.arctic-sea-ice.net/index.php/topic,347.msg158976.html#msg158976
Only the Danes can now stop NS II, but I don't think they will.

Should I vote for the greens this autumn?
As a member of the England and Wales Green Party I obviously should say yes - if only as the least-worst option.

But I am thinking of Greenpeace as well - as my Green Party is not doing well at pushing hard and loud on the environment stuff - a bit wishy-washy to tell the truth.

It may even be my summer project to without shame lift loads of stuff from this forum and at least shout and occasionally even scream locally.
"Para a Causa do Povo a Luta Continua!"
"And that's all I'm going to say about that". Forrest Gump
"Damn, I wanted to see what happened next" (Epitaph)

Bob Wallace

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Re: If not Capitalism... then What? And, How?
« Reply #622 on: June 17, 2018, 02:38:05 AM »
In the US - No.

Perhaps in a local election if the Green candidate has a very good chance of winning and there's no danger of splitting the left wing vote and letting a Republican win.

National elections - Absolutely No.  A protest vote, regardless of how strongly felt, aids the candidate you really don't want.

Think how different the world would be now had Bush/Cheney been defeated and not allowed to blow up the Middle East.  Think about how we would not now be dealing with the Trump mess.


Bob Wallace

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Re: If not Capitalism... then What? And, How?
« Reply #623 on: June 17, 2018, 10:19:50 AM »
Quote
It doesn't matter what I vote for to be honest.


George Bush = Illegal invasion of Iraq.

Al Gore = No Iraq invasion.

Yep, votes don't matter.

sidd

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Re: If not Capitalism... then What? And, How?
« Reply #624 on: June 19, 2018, 07:42:47 AM »
Oh, look: These are the best and the brightest in charge of hundreds of billions in pensions and such:

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-5857373/Bill-Gross-sprayed-fart-scent-dead-fish-vents-hair-balls-drawers-20M-home-says-ex.html

Bill Gross is a piece of work. I been watching him forawhile. Don't put your money anywhere near him.

sidd

ralfy

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Re: If not Capitalism... then What? And, How?
« Reply #625 on: June 19, 2018, 08:47:16 AM »

miki

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Re: If not Capitalism... then What? And, How?
« Reply #626 on: June 23, 2018, 07:43:01 PM »
A brilliant historic analysis of "capitalism", its roots & current implications...

By  Ariän Taher, in Truthout
June 16, 2018

Today’s Capitalism Is a Far Cry From What It Was Intended to Be

https://truthout.org/articles/todays-capitalism-is-a-far-cry-from-what-it-was-intended-to-be/

"So, what exactly do we name our economy? Whether neomercantilism, Keynesian capitalism, corporatocracy, fascism, really-existing-capitalism, or otherwise, it’s up to you, the People, who together toil, endure and persevere under the legacies of Hamilton’s system."

"Hamilton understood correctly: Capitalism, as Smith intended it, could not sustain the United States in unbridled competition. This understanding diverged the US economy from the path of capitalism, not moral reasoning regarding its inherent subjugation of laborers to the capricious will of amoral “merchants and manufacturers,” nor that its envisioned outcome of “perfect equality” is unfeasibly reliant on conscientiousness from economic elites, whose modus operandi is not altruism, but profit maximization, even turning philanthropy into philanthrocapitalism."

sidd

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Re: If not Capitalism... then What? And, How?
« Reply #627 on: June 24, 2018, 12:57:51 AM »
I posted a link to an interview with Wolin in another thread, as well as a link to the transcript. The whole thing is rather good, but there is a great deal of discussion of capitalism, in fact the title of the interview is "Can Capitalism and Democracy Coexist ?"

http://www.activatingdemocracy.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/01/Sheldon-Wolin-interviewed-by-Chris-Hedges.pdf

and



Some excerpts:

"Weber's critique of capitalism is even broader. I think he views it as quintessentially destructive not only of democracy, but also, of course, of the sort of feudal aristocratic system which had preceded it. Capitalism is destructive because it has to eliminate the kind of custom /ˈmɔːreɪz/, political values, even institutions that present any kind of credible threat to the autonomy of the economy. And it's that--that's where the
battle lies. Capitalism wants an autonomous economy. They want a political order subservient to the needs of the economy."

" ... the ruling groups, the capitalist groups, were very conscious of what they had and what was needed to keep it going. And that's why figures like Alexander Hamilton are so important, because they understood this, they understood it from the beginning, that what capitalism required in the way not only of so-called free enterprise--but remember, Hamilton believed very, very strongly in the kind of camaraderie between capitalism and strong central government, that strong central government was not the enemy of capitalism, but rather its tool, and that what had to be constantly kind of revitalized was that kind of relationship, because it was always being threatened by populist democracy, which wanted to break that link and cause government to be returned to some kind of responsive relationship to the people."

"we go through these periods of sleepwalking where we have to relearn lessons that have been known almost since the birth of the republic, or at least since the birth of Jeffersonian democracy, that capitalism has its virtues, but it has to be carefully, carefully watched, observed, and often controlled."

"inverted totalitarianism, certainly a species of totalitarianism, can often be the product of a strong democracy.

WOLIN: It can, in the sense that that strong democracy can do what its name implies. In the pursuit of popular ends, it develops inevitably powerful institutions to promote those ends. And very often they lend themselves to being taken over and utilized, that--for example, that popular means of communication and news information and so on can become very easily propaganda means for corporate capitalism, which understands that if you gain control of newspapers, radio, television, that you're in a position to really shape the political atmosphere."

sidd

Bob Wallace

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Re: If not Capitalism... then What? And, How?
« Reply #628 on: June 24, 2018, 02:06:30 AM »
Quote
"Weber's critique of capitalism is even broader. I think he views it as quintessentially destructive not only of democracy, but also, of course, of the sort of feudal aristocratic system which had preceded it. Capitalism is destructive because it has to eliminate the kind of custom /ˈmɔːreɪz/, political values, even institutions that present any kind of credible threat to the autonomy of the economy. And it's that--that's where the
battle lies. Capitalism wants an autonomous economy. They want a political order subservient to the needs of the economy."

Horse apples.

Capitalism is a description of how people operate.

Democracies have the potential to control the greediest and most unethical members of the society. 

Aristocratic and dictatorial systems generally operate in ways that create monopolies or concentrate capital into only a few hands.  Those systems are generally controlled by the greediest.

All the people complaining about capitalism are really complaining about inadequately controlled economic systems where a few have been able to grab the most.

Right now, in the US, we've allowed the greediest to grab too large a share.  We evened things out somewhat with labor organizations starting in the 1930s and dropped our guard largely during and following the Reagan administration.  We've got a chance to start turning things the other way in November and then again two years later.  We have the power, the question is whether we will use it.

sidd

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Re: If not Capitalism... then What? And, How?
« Reply #629 on: June 24, 2018, 05:42:20 AM »
Disagreed that "Capitalism is a description of how people operate"

That is, as Varoufakis has pointed out, one school of thought. That sets all against all, leading to the famous Thatcher argument: There are only individuals and families acting in their own best interests, there is no society.



Perhaps some of us only know people who act in their own self interests. That is a very sad world they live in.

sidd



Bob Wallace

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Re: If not Capitalism... then What? And, How?
« Reply #630 on: June 24, 2018, 06:35:19 AM »
Quote
There are only individuals and families acting in their own best interests, there is no society.

There are only individual organisms acting in their best interest (plus some offspring rearing which is sometimes required for a species to exist).

In order to serve our best interests we form societies ranging from a partnership with one other organism to small groups of "family", to communities, to countries and in some cases the entire planet.

Or at least we attempt to create entire planet societies.

sidd

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Re: If not Capitalism... then What? And, How?
« Reply #631 on: June 24, 2018, 07:42:11 AM »
Great conversation between Chomsky and Varoufakis from the new york public library from a couple years ago: 1 hour 43 minutes.



transcript at

https://www.yanisvaroufakis.eu/2016/06/28/full-transcript-of-the-yanis-varoufakis-noam-chomsky-nypl-discussion/

"Remember, Roosevelt made sure that in the Bretton Woods Conference, which designed the postwar—the first postwar phase between the 1940s and 1971, 1973. He had stipulated that one kind of person should not be allowed into the Bretton Woods conference. You know who these people were. Bankers. Not one banker attended the Bretton Woods Conference and that was at the explicit order of FDR."

"So you had boring banks between 1944 and 1971, but after 1971 and we can discuss why that is, suddenly banking was unleashed and their capacity effectively to mint private money became unlimited and essential to the second postwar phase of global capitalism, of American capitalism, of American hegemony. "

" “You’re right, it can’t work. What we are trying to impose on your nation [Greece] can’t work. But, Yanis, you must understand we have invested so much political capital in this program, we can’t go back, and your credibility,” my credibility, “depends on accepting it.” I think that answers your question. "

"NOAM CHOMSKY: Well, how do they—how do the participants in the troika deliberations react to the technical papers that are coming out from the IMF economists saying, their own economists, Blanchard, others, saying, these policies of austerity under recession are just destructive.

YANIS VAROUFAKIS: It’s very simple. They ignore them. "

" Varoufakis: “Would you sign this?” And he[Schauble] turned around and said, “As a patriot, I wouldn’t.”  "

"Schauble: We have discipline to look after, and I want to take the troika to Paris. "

" his [Greenspan] testimony to Congress where explained how magnificent the economy was that he was administering. He said it was based on growing worker insecurity."

"Alan Greenspan and the Fed under Alan Greenspan indulged in autolobotomy regarding these structural aspects of global capitalism"

"I[Varoufakis] grew up in the dictatorship that the CIA managed to create before the Pentagon had its own coup with the generals."

Re: Marshall plan:

"Europe would be dollarized, so that Europeans could buy the gleaming cars and the gleaming aircraft and washing machines from Westinghouse and so on and so forth that America would not be able to absorb on American soil. Europeans were in ashes after the war, so they needed to be dollarized. So they would be allowed to recreate all their own currencies, but their currencies would be pegged to the dollar, effectively they would have the dollar in different form. And that was a fixed-exchange-rate regime."

"The Greek economy is fading, all business plans are going haywire, in a sense remember “liquidate, liquidate, liquidate” under President Hoover, Mellon, I think was the name of the U.S. treasury secretary that said that. That is what’s happening. Complete liquidation of Greek business, the Greek state, and the Greek people. And all that is happening in the context of the nineteenth-century gunboat diplomacy, the purpose of which is not so much Greece, it is how to keep France, Spain, Portugal."

"You are going to have the liquidation of households with foreclosures and foreclosures in Greece are worse than here, because here you can take the keys to your house and go to the bank and say, “Take it. Bye.” In Greece, you can’t do that. Even if you lose your house, you still have the debt, you carry it with you, like Mephistopheles walking around with hell around him, you are walking around the world with that same debt, even though you no longer have the house."

"For the same very simple reason, I think we are in a 1930 moment. Shortly after the collapse of Wall Street, the great financial crisis, and just before the slide into a postmodern abyss of xenophobia, misanthropy, failed economic policies, austerity, debt deflation that will become a major source of uncertainty, of misanthropy, of pain and unnecessary not just for Europe but for the rest of the world. "

Schauble: "“Elections cannot be allowed to change the economic policies of any country.”

"The notion that Europe is split between north and south and that north is populated by all the ants whereas the grasshoppers have congregated to the south and to Ireland is a very strange idea. There are ants and there are grasshoppers everywhere. What happened before 2008 was the grasshoppers of the south and the grasshoppers of the north got together into a splendid alliance of debt-driven frenzy. They were the bankers. They were the spivs, they were those who predicated their growth on transfers from the European Union budget to create motorways that went to nowhere, Olympic Game sites in Greece, and so on and so forth, and they became fabulously rich. This was the alliance of the grasshoppers. The ants were working very hard and were finding it very hard to make ends meet during the good times. And then when the grasshoppers’ empire collapsed, it was the ants of the north and the ants of the south that had to bail them out, and it’s time for the ants of the north and the ants of the south to unite in Europe to change that crazy regime."

Watch the whole thing. And then, read the transcript carefully.

sidd

Bob Wallace

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Re: If not Capitalism... then What? And, How?
« Reply #632 on: June 24, 2018, 08:12:32 AM »
All these high-winded arguments/discussions come down to how much should capitalism be controlled and how.

Or how much should human greed be controlled and how.

Control too little and we get monopolies.  Control too much and we stiffle individual effort and innovation.

Bob Wallace

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Re: If not Capitalism... then What? And, How?
« Reply #633 on: June 24, 2018, 05:29:51 PM »
ASL - it's called "first principles".  If you understand what is happening at the most basic level then it's possible to cut through the verbiage.


SteveMDFP

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Re: If not Capitalism... then What? And, How?
« Reply #634 on: June 24, 2018, 11:44:58 PM »


Capitalism is a description of how people operate.
 

It certainly *seems* so, when one is born into a capitalist society, and then lives as a consumer and worker.  All actors are simply acting to maximize wealth and income, with apparent freedom as to who to work for and what to purchase.

Except that capitalism has grown to be a powerful behemoth courtesy of a highly artificial legal construct--the corporation.  More precisely, the "limited liability" company.  It's not a natural grouping of investors who share in the risks and liabilities of the joint venture.  The owners are insulated from the natural consequences of their actions.  If  the venture sustains catastrophic losses, the owners are only out the money they've put in.  If the corporation commits murder (and corporations have certainly been found guilty of murder and other crimes), the owners face no risk of prosecution.

It's a massive and extremely lucrative grant that society gives to the shareholders, without sufficient compensation or regulation.

Bob Wallace

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Re: If not Capitalism... then What? And, How?
« Reply #635 on: June 25, 2018, 12:09:36 AM »
Quote
It certainly *seems* so, when one is born into a capitalist society, and then lives as a consumer and worker.  All actors are simply acting to maximize wealth and income, with apparent freedom as to who to work for and what to purchase.

Having spent some time in socialistic countries (China a few years after Mao's death and others) I can assure you that people worked to maximum "stuff".  It was just very hard to do.

It is certainly not the case that all people who live in more free economies are actors who work to maximize wealth and income.  Many are quite happy to live more modest lives once they've reached a position of reasonable comfort.  Heck, I retired at 44 because I had enough.  Had I continued and did not run into a major disruptive event my net worth would be at least in the tens of millions of dollars.  And I have multiple friends who have made the same "enough" decision.

Quote
capitalism has grown to be a powerful behemoth courtesy of a highly artificial legal construct--the corporation.  More precisely, the "limited liability" company.

Were it not for limited liability for investors almost no large projects would be started.  You wouldn't be using a computer or driving a car/riding a bus.

In order for Tesla to revolutionize transportation they needed money.  No one would invest if their few thousands invested in a company could end up costing them everything they had. 
 
Quote
The owners are insulated from the natural consequences of their actions.  If  the venture sustains catastrophic losses, the owners are only out the money they've put in.  If the corporation commits murder (and corporations have certainly been found guilty of murder and other crimes), the owners face no risk of prosecution.

The owners are somewhat insulated from the behavior of those actually running and working for the company.  They stand to lose their investment so they are not totally risk free.

If a corporation commits murder then the employees involved that murder are the ones who should be held responsible.  We don't line up everyone working in a business and shoot them if one or a portion of the employee force runs off the rails.

The problem is not corporations.  The problem is that in some cases we need to tighten and enforce regulations.  And, I  think, we need to see more of what we've seen with a VW exec convicted and sentenced to time in prison. 

We've gone through a period of losing controls over businesses and not taxing upper level earners enough.  It's time to move in the other direction.

SteveMDFP

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Re: If not Capitalism... then What? And, How?
« Reply #636 on: June 25, 2018, 12:18:35 AM »

The problem is not corporations.  The problem is that in some cases we need to tighten and enforce regulations.  And, I  think, we need to see more of what we've seen with a VW exec convicted and sentenced to time in prison. 

We've gone through a period of losing controls over businesses and not taxing upper level earners enough.  It's time to move in the other direction.

Well, yes, we're largely in agreement.  As I said "It's a massive and extremely lucrative grant that society gives to the shareholders, without sufficient compensation or regulation."

Outlawing corporations wouldn't be my preferred solution.  But the public gives this grant of limited liability without currently getting just and fair compensation.  What's really needed is a steep increase in corporate income tax globally (for the same sort of reasons we need a *global* carbon tax/price).  And tighter regulation to prohibit political meddling.  Yes, higher taxes on the wealthy are needed, though I think stronger estate taxes could suffice.  Let the "winners" play with their toys while they're alive.  No financial dynasties.

Bob Wallace

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Re: If not Capitalism... then What? And, How?
« Reply #637 on: June 25, 2018, 12:24:41 AM »
I don't disagree with any of that. 

In general, it should be easier to earn one's first million than second and all subsequent millions should be harder to earn.  Progressive tax that keeps on rolling up.

Probably the main thing we need to do in the US is to get private money out of campaigns.  Public financing would probably pay for itself many times over.

Susan Anderson

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Re: If not Capitalism... then What? And, How?
« Reply #638 on: June 25, 2018, 12:40:35 AM »
@miki: thank you for reminding me of Truthout. One of the best! I'll take a look again.

zizek

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Re: If not Capitalism... then What? And, How?
« Reply #639 on: June 25, 2018, 02:45:36 AM »

It is certainly not the case that all people who live in more free economies are actors who work to maximize wealth and income.  Many are quite happy to live more modest lives once they've reached a position of reasonable comfort.  Heck, I retired at 44 because I had enough.  Had I continued and did not run into a major disruptive event my net worth would be at least in the tens of millions of dollars.  And I have multiple friends who have made the same "enough" decision.


Apparently accumulating so much capital that you can comfortably retire at the age of 44 is a sign of modesty.

no wonder your views on capitalism are so distorted.

Bob Wallace

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Re: If not Capitalism... then What? And, How?
« Reply #640 on: June 25, 2018, 05:14:04 AM »
 France, Denmark, Sweden, West Germany, and Australia are countries where individuals are allowed to work for their own profit.  They all have laws permitting corporations and private ownership of property.

In those countries, and the US, citizens have agreed to own some services in common as that is sometimes a way to obtain a service otherwise unaffordable for most.  Some common examples are fire protection, postal services, care for the disabled, health care, child protection services.  Countries may differ in how many of these agreements they'be entered into but all have some. 

Mao's China did not permit private ownership of property (unless you were one of the "more equal").  Service in restaurants where foreigners were allowed to eat was generally crummy.  One waiter explained to me that no one bothered to work hard or do anything extra because everyone made the same.  Any tips left by foreigners had to be turned over to the government.

Bob Wallace

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Re: If not Capitalism... then What? And, How?
« Reply #641 on: June 25, 2018, 05:36:08 AM »
Here's a definition of socialism that fits my use of the term.

Quote
a political and economic theory of social organization that advocates that the means of production, distribution, and exchange should be owned or regulated by the community as a whole.

In none of the countries listed are the means of production, distribution, and exchange owned by the community as a whole. 

Sigmetnow

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Re: If not Capitalism... then What? And, How?
« Reply #642 on: June 25, 2018, 05:11:49 PM »
Paying everyone a little bit does not serve the premise of a Universal Basic Income.

Finland’s Basic Income Test Wasn’t Ambitious Enough
The payments encouraged beneficiaries to take work that doesn’t pay a living wage.
Quote
The UBI idea is not dead. It’s still worth watching other experiments, especially the ones that actually provide a living income.
https://www.bloomberg.com/amp/view/articles/2018-04-26/finland-s-basic-income-experiment-was-doomed-from-the-start
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wili

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Re: If not Capitalism... then What? And, How?
« Reply #643 on: June 27, 2018, 05:01:52 AM »
Not sure where to post this, and apologies if it has already been posted here or if there's some other more appropriate thread for it somewhere:

Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez, a 28-year-old socialist, topples powerful incumbent Joe Crowley

https://thinkprogress.org/crowley-loses-primary-b7f702972f1c/

Quote
Rep. Joe Crowley (D-NY) became the first Democratic incumbent to lose his primary election Tuesday. Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez, a 28-year-old socialist, ran an insurgent campaign focused on Medicare for all, abolishing Immigration and Customs Enforcement (ICE), and tuition-free higher education.

She has now taken down a man widely considered a candidate for the next Speaker should Democrats retake the House.

Crowley first took office in 1999, and Ocasio-Cortez marked his first challenger in 14 years. She garnered national attention as she has waged war against the congressman’s corporate donations and centrist policy record.

Despite the hype, Crowley, who represented New York’s 14th district, was widely considered a heavy favorite in the race.

Ocasio-Cortez consistently hit Crowley for not accurately representing the district, saying in a campaign ad — without naming him — that it’s “time we acknowledge that not all Democrats are the same.”

...“What the Bronx and Queens needs is Medicare for all, tuition-free public college, a federal jobs guarantee, and criminal justice reform. We can do it now.”
"A force de chercher de bonnes raisons, on en trouve; on les dit; et après on y tient, non pas tant parce qu'elles sont bonnes que pour ne pas se démentir." Choderlos de Laclos "You struggle to come up with some valid reasons, then cling to them, not because they're good, but just to not back down."

sidd

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Re: If not Capitalism... then What? And, How?
« Reply #644 on: June 27, 2018, 05:35:02 AM »
I posted similarly over in the thread entitled "The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out"

an included a link to your post

https://forum.arctic-sea-ice.net/index.php/topic,1937.msg160957.html#msg160957

sidd

Sigmetnow

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Re: If not Capitalism... then What? And, How?
« Reply #645 on: July 02, 2018, 09:04:36 PM »
Gates:  "The purpose of humanity is not just to sit behind a counter and sell things. More free time is not a terrible thing."

Branson:  “I think with artificial intelligence coming along, there needs to be a basic income.”

Billionaire Richard Branson: America should give out free cash to fix income inequality
https://www.cnbc.com/2018/07/02/virgin-groups-richard-branson-on-universal-basic-income.html
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sidd

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Re: If not Capitalism... then What? And, How?
« Reply #646 on: July 13, 2018, 02:33:27 AM »
From 2014, an analysis of capitalism and its discontents, arguing that capitalism's victory over regulation has led to the seeds of its own demise.

"At present, I claim, we are already in a position to observe capitalism passing away as a result of having destroyed its opposition—dying, as it were, from an overdose of itself. "

"Under oligarchic redistribution, the Keynesian bond which tied the profits of the rich to the wages of the poor is severed, cutting the fate of economic elites loose from that of the masses. [37] This was anticipated in the infamous ‘plutonomy’ memorandums distributed by Citibank in 2005 and 2006 to a select circle of its richest clients, to assure them that their prosperity no longer depended on that of wage earners. [38] "

"In summary, capitalism, as a social order held together by a promise of boundless collective progress, is in critical condition. Growth is giving way to secular stagnation; what economic progress remains is less and less shared; and confidence in the capitalist money economy is leveraged on a rising mountain of promises that are ever less likely to be kept. "

"Step by step, capitalism’s shotgun marriage with democracy since 1945 is breaking up."

The list of references is very good. For example, the "Plutonomy" memos by Citigroup.

https://newleftreview.org/II/87/wolfgang-streeck-how-will-capitalism-end

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johnm33

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Re: If not Capitalism... then What? And, How?
« Reply #647 on: July 13, 2018, 10:04:03 AM »
Pretty much in the same vein as above, https://www.oftwominds.com/blogjuly18/USA-3rd-world7-18.html This illustrates the state that all 'mature' political bodies, ungoverned by an overiding ethical framework achieve, before collapse. They all resemble the hierarchical set up that social insects have gamed, it's not a good fit for primates. With the insidious penetration of digital oversight I'm not at all sure that the complete breakdown, with all the social chaos that implies, will be any worse than the clearly unplanned, but totally necessary to maintain the status quo, accelerating tyranny ahead.

Sigmetnow

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Re: If not Capitalism... then What? And, How?
« Reply #648 on: August 12, 2018, 05:51:46 PM »
This Bloomberg author is worried.

Americans Own Less Stuff, and That’s Reason to Be Nervous
What happens when a nation built on the concept of individual property ownership starts to give that up?
Quote
Some social problems are blatantly obvious in daily life, while others are longer-term, more corrosive and perhaps mostly invisible. Lately I’ve been worrying about a problem of the latter kind: the erosion of personal ownership and what that will mean for our loyalties to traditional American concepts of capitalism and private property.

The main culprits for the change are software and the internet. For instance, Amazon’s Kindle and other methods of online reading have revolutionized how Americans consume text. Fifteen years ago, people typically owned the books and magazines they were reading. Much less so now. If you look at the fine print, it turns out that you do not own the books on your Kindle. Amazon.com Inc. does.

I do not consider this much of a practical problem. Although Amazon could obliterate the books on my Kindle, this has happened only in a very small number of cases, typically involving account abuse. Still, this licensing of e-books, instead of stacking books on a shelf, has altered our psychological sense of how we connect to what we read – it is no longer truly “ours.”

The change in our relationship with physical objects does not stop there. We used to buy DVDs or video cassettes; now viewers stream movies or TV shows with Netflix. Even the company’s disc-mailing service is falling out of favor. Music lovers used to buy compact discs; now Spotify and YouTube are more commonly used to hear our favorite tunes.

The great American teenage dream used to be to own your own car. That is dwindling in favor of urban living, greater reliance on mass transit, cycling, walking and, of course, ride-sharing services such as Uber and Lyft.

Each of these changes is beneficial, yet I worry that Americans are, slowly but surely, losing their connection to the idea of private ownership. The nation was based on the notion that property ownership gives individuals a stake in the system. It set Americans apart from feudal peasants, taught us how property rights and incentives operate, and was a kind of training for future entrepreneurship. Do we not, as parents, often give our children pets or other valuable possessions to teach them basic lessons of life and stewardship?

We’re hardly at a point where American property has been abolished, but I am still nervous that we are finding ownership to be so inconvenient. The notion of “possessive individualism” is sometimes mocked, but in fact it is a significant source of autonomy and initiative. Perhaps we are becoming more communal and caring in positive ways, but it also seems to be more conformist and to generate fewer empire builders and entrepreneurs.

What about your iPhone, that all-essential life device? Surely you own that? Well, sort of. When Apple Inc. decides to change the operating software, sooner or later you have to go along with what they have selected. Gmail is due to change its overall look and functionality, maybe for the better, but again eventually this choice will not be yours either: It’s Google’s. The very economics of software encourage standardization, and changes over time, so de facto you rent much of what you use rather than owning it. I typed the draft of this column using Microsoft Word, and sooner or later my contract to use it will expire and I will have to renew.

Imagine the “internet of things” penetrating our homes more and more, through services like Amazon’s Alexa. We’ll have ovens and thermostats that  you set with your voice, and a toilet and bathroom that periodically give you the equivalent of a medical check-up. Yes, you will still own the title to your physical house, but most of the value in that home you will in essence rent from outside companies or, in the case of municipal utilities, the government.

As for that iPhone, it is already clear that you do not have a full legal right to repair it, and indeed more and more devices are sold to consumers without giving them corresponding rights to fix or alter those goods and services. John Deere tractors are sold to farmers with plenty of software, and farmers have to hack into the tractor if they wish to fix it themselves. There is now a small but burgeoning “right to repair” political movement.

Does that sound like something our largely agrarian Founding Fathers might have been happy about? The libertarian political theorist might tell you that arrangement is simply freedom of contract in action. But the more commonsensical, broad libertarian intuitions of the American public encapsulate a more brutish and direct sense that some things we simply own and hold the rights to.

Those are intuitions which are growing increasingly disconnected from reality, and no one knows what lies on the other side of this social experiment.
https://www.bloomberg.com/amp/view/articles/2018-08-12/american-ownership-society-is-changing-thanks-to-technology
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sidd

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Re: If not Capitalism... then What? And, How?
« Reply #649 on: August 12, 2018, 10:29:10 PM »
"Do we not, as parents, often give our children pets or other valuable possessions to teach them basic lessons of life and stewardship?"

That sentence tells you all about the author right there.

sidd