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Author Topic: Energy Efficiency: The “First Fuel”  (Read 29149 times)

Bob Wallace

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Re: Energy Efficiency: The “First Fuel”
« Reply #100 on: October 04, 2017, 05:09:16 AM »
We need to keep pushing hard on the external costs of fossil fuels.

If more people understand that leaving fossil fuels will save us a lot of money the transition will be easier to pull off.

Sigmetnow

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Re: Energy Efficiency: The “First Fuel”
« Reply #101 on: October 11, 2017, 04:38:42 PM »
"The Honda Smart House in Davis, CA, may look like an average home, but it uses 75 percent less energy and three times less water than an average home. The home is connected to the grid, but it produces more energy than it uses, making it zero net energy (ZNE).
-
In addition to being ZNE, the home has with adaptive lighting, heating, and cooling that is naturally aided by insulation, south-facing windows, and reflective roofing material."
https://www.instagram.com/p/BaFWIM4H3rH/
Image below.

http://www.hondasmarthome.com

Video:
People who say it cannot be done should not interrupt those who are doing it.

etienne

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Re: Energy Efficiency: The “First Fuel”
« Reply #102 on: November 20, 2017, 09:45:15 PM »
Well talking about efficiency... if you had a doubt that energy is too cheap, just check this :
https://realfly.ch/en/

Bob Wallace

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Re: Energy Efficiency: The “First Fuel”
« Reply #103 on: November 20, 2017, 10:09:04 PM »
Well talking about efficiency... if you had a doubt that energy is too cheap, just check this :
https://realfly.ch/en/

Skydiving on a column of air rather than jumping out of an airplane.  Saves plane fuel....

etienne

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Re: Energy Efficiency: The “First Fuel”
« Reply #104 on: November 20, 2017, 10:28:07 PM »
I also like this part of the description :

RealFly is committed to the environment

Our team applies simple daily actions to preserve it.

★ All internal correspondence is by email.
★ Our premises are equipped with a LED timer system for off-peak hours.
★ All waste is carefully sorted and recycled.
★ Management and optimisation of our printers
(printing in draft mode and printers in standby mode).
★ Toner cartridges for our printers are sent to specialised
recycling companies.

Well, this kind of system is only possible because of the efficiency gains on electrical motors, heat pumps (air has to be cooled) ... and is some kind of electrical proof of concept of Jevons paradox.

numerobis

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Re: Energy Efficiency: The “First Fuel”
« Reply #105 on: November 22, 2017, 02:58:40 PM »
https://www.indoorskydivingsource.com/articles/types-of-vertical-wind-tunnels/

1.6 MW for that system.

I'm failing to compare it to other entertainment like cinemas or concert halls.

ghoti

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Re: Energy Efficiency: The “First Fuel”
« Reply #106 on: November 22, 2017, 05:21:37 PM »
https://www.indoorskydivingsource.com/articles/types-of-vertical-wind-tunnels/

1.6 MW for that system.

I'm failing to compare it to other entertainment like cinemas or concert halls.

What about comparing it to the cost of actually sky diving out of a plane?

numerobis

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Re: Energy Efficiency: The “First Fuel”
« Reply #107 on: November 23, 2017, 01:43:33 AM »
How many who would go to one of these centres would jump out of an airplane instead?

Neven

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Re: Energy Efficiency: The “First Fuel”
« Reply #108 on: November 23, 2017, 09:01:17 AM »
Most energy efficient would be to allow only jumps without parachutes.  ;)
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Jim Hunt

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Re: Energy Efficiency: The “First Fuel”
« Reply #109 on: November 23, 2017, 02:04:46 PM »
Talking of "smart homes", we're currently collaborating with the SPECIFIC project in South Wales.

See their "Active Classroom" and "SOLCER House":

http://www.V2G.co.uk/2015/07/solcer-zero-carbon-house-wins-innovation-in-sustainability-award/

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numerobis

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Re: Energy Efficiency: The “First Fuel”
« Reply #110 on: November 23, 2017, 04:43:09 PM »
That picture makes me think “Welsh Gothic”.

After signing a mortgage yesterday, I ordered weatherproofing tape and plastic sheeting for the windows in the new house — the type you blow-dry to shrink up tight. Via amazon, so it’ll be flown in of course (at the local store it would have 2-3x as much).

Next summer we’ll install new windows and doors. The current ones are leaky.

TerryM

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Re: Energy Efficiency: The “First Fuel”
« Reply #111 on: November 24, 2017, 11:04:28 AM »
That picture makes me think “Welsh Gothic”.

After signing a mortgage yesterday, I ordered weatherproofing tape and plastic sheeting for the windows in the new house — the type you blow-dry to shrink up tight. Via amazon, so it’ll be flown in of course (at the local store it would have 2-3x as much).

Next summer we’ll install new windows and doors. The current ones are leaky.


Congratulations on your purchase! I had no idea that your attachment to the north ran so deeply. I had dinner last Sunday with an archaeologist whose 4 children were all born in the Canadian Arctic. His eldest is just finishing her nursing education and will be headed your way once school's out.


I was very impressed by the "SHED" concept described in Jim's post just above your's & wonder if their seasonal storage techniques could be developed for the Arctic. I can't imagine that heat storage would suffice through your long winters, but even a 10% reduction in heating energy usage could make a difference.
They specifically mention retrofitting an existing structure, and from what I could see the costs were on the front end with very few expenses thereafter.


Stay Warm
Terry

numerobis

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Re: Energy Efficiency: The “First Fuel”
« Reply #112 on: November 24, 2017, 01:18:40 PM »
It helps that $2500/month rents me a smaller place than $1200/month in costs (interest, heating, taxes, etc). At that rate it doesn’t take too long to pay off the transaction costs.

Jim Hunt

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Re: Energy Efficiency: The “First Fuel”
« Reply #113 on: November 24, 2017, 04:25:20 PM »
I was very impressed by the "SHED" concept described in Jim's post just above your's & wonder if their seasonal storage techniques could be developed for the Arctic.

An intriguing thought Terry. I'll mention it to the SPECIFIC team, but it's a long way from Swansea to the shores of the Arctic!
« Last Edit: November 25, 2017, 02:57:41 PM by Jim Hunt »
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numerobis

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Re: Energy Efficiency: The “First Fuel”
« Reply #114 on: November 24, 2017, 07:16:56 PM »
It strikes me that Canada just decided to put some pocket change into social housing again (40 billion!!!!... over ten years).

I wonder how much will be built with energy efficiency in mind. The top priority may be to put a roof over everyone's head, but if the house is cheaper to operate, it becomes easier to keep people in the house.

--------

In the Arctic we generally get great hot sun from about February to July in Iqaluit, a bit later on both ends further North. Basically, the season starts as soon as the day is long enough and ends when we switch to a marine climate or the day gets short.

January/February is the coldest and darkest, and solar heat is unlikely to do anything about that. But we heat nearly year round (and we use hot water year-round), so there's plenty of room for solar heating to reduce our oil boiler use.

I'm planning on looking into solar hot water for our place.
« Last Edit: November 24, 2017, 07:27:13 PM by numerobis »

gerontocrat

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Re: Energy Efficiency: The “First Fuel”
« Reply #115 on: November 24, 2017, 08:39:21 PM »
It strikes me that Canada just decided to put some pocket change into social housing again (40 billion!!!!... over ten years).

I wonder how much will be built with energy efficiency in mind. The top priority may be to put a roof over everyone's head, but if the house is cheaper to operate, it becomes easier to keep people in the house.

--------

In the Arctic we generally get great hot sun from about February to July in Iqaluit, a bit later on both ends further North. Basically, the season starts as soon as the day is long enough and ends when we switch to a marine climate or the day gets short.

January/February is the coldest and darkest, and solar heat is unlikely to do anything about that. But we heat nearly year round (and we use hot water year-round), so there's plenty of room for solar heating to reduce our oil boiler use.

I'm planning on looking into solar hot water for our place.
A wind farm for the city ?
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ghoti

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Re: Energy Efficiency: The “First Fuel”
« Reply #116 on: November 24, 2017, 10:43:25 PM »
I wonder how much will be built with energy efficiency in mind. The top priority may be to put a roof over everyone's head, but if the house is cheaper to operate, it becomes easier to keep people in the house.
In Ontario at least the building code has been updated to require significant energy efficiency features. For example basement walls must be insulated to at least R20, underlying slab to R10 plus it requires continuous insulation:
An uninterrupted layer of insulation that spans over substrate without thermal
bridging, other than fasteners and services. A continuous layer of insulation
helps reduce the potential for condensation within the wall where mold and
mildew can accumulate undetected.

Roof insulation now needs to be R50 or more.

In Ottawa a recent social housing building was built to Passive House standards.

So you can pretty much count on new construction being reasonably efficient.

Mathiasdm

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Re: Energy Efficiency: The “First Fuel”
« Reply #117 on: November 25, 2017, 06:56:23 AM »
Roof insulation now needs to be R50 or more.

In Ottawa a recent social housing building was built to Passive House standards.

So you can pretty much count on new construction being reasonably efficient.
Hm, is this R-value different than the insulation standards in Europe?

I'm currently building a house, and our roof has 22 cm of glasswool (lambda 0.035) and 3 cm of rockwool (lambda 0.035).
The R-value is thickness/lambda = 0.25/0.035 = 7.14.
Is this a different type of R-value? Because the R50 you mention would, with the above calculation, be 1.75 meter of insulation.

Edit: the joys of the metric and imperial systems...
Wikipedia states:
    R-value (U.S.) = RSI (SI) × 5.678263337
    RSI (SI) = R-value (U.S.) × 0.1761101838

So the R-value I calculated would in the US and Canada (I thought you guys used metric?) correspond to a value of 40.

ghoti

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Re: Energy Efficiency: The “First Fuel”
« Reply #118 on: November 25, 2017, 05:47:04 PM »
So the R-value I calculated would in the US and Canada (I thought you guys used metric?) correspond to a value of 40.
Canada's economy is fully integrated with the US so even though it technically uses the metric system many things are described in US units.

numerobis

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Re: Energy Efficiency: The “First Fuel”
« Reply #119 on: November 26, 2017, 06:11:44 PM »
It’s at least as much inertia as US integration. Some things that don’t matter at all are in British customary units.

Example 1: at the grocery in Montreal, the price will be eg $2.18/kg in big print. A very strange number, until you read the small print 0.99/lb. When I was a child, the price was only in pounds, and in Iqaluit, the price is in round numbers per kilo. Coffee in Montreal is now generally sold by the 500g bag, rather than by the pound; and cheese prices are “round” numbers per 100g. So there’s progress.

Example 2: a block of tofu is generally 454g. I’ve never heard anyone other than me call it a pound of tofu, it just happens to be that weight rather than some other number (325g is the other common size). There’s not much cross-border trade in tofu; it’s just too easy to plop down a factory.

Example 3: order a beer and you’ll get a pint. Not a US pint (16 fl oz) but an imperial pint (20 fl oz).

sidd

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Re: Energy Efficiency: The “First Fuel”
« Reply #120 on: December 16, 2017, 01:07:47 AM »
85% aircon load reduction demonstrated by remote control of thermostats:

https://www.utilitydive.com/news/tendril-energy-management-platform-reduced-utilities-hvac-load-85-in-summ/513150/

sidd

Sigmetnow

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Re: Energy Efficiency: The “First Fuel”
« Reply #121 on: December 16, 2017, 01:20:55 AM »
85% aircon load reduction demonstrated by remote control of thermostats:

https://www.utilitydive.com/news/tendril-energy-management-platform-reduced-utilities-hvac-load-85-in-summ/513150/

sidd

I thought this sounded a lot like what a Nest thermostat does....  The original article mentions that:
“Additional smart thermostat partnerships have been formed with Nest and Honeywell.”
https://www.tendrilinc.com/resources/press-release/aep-xcel-tap-tendril

Can only see this becoming more common.
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Jim Hunt

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Re: Energy Efficiency: The “First Fuel”
« Reply #122 on: December 16, 2017, 03:05:42 PM »
85% aircon load reduction

We don't have much in the way of domestic aircon on this side of the pond. However we do have eddi and zappi!

http://www.V2G.co.uk/2017/09/evangelising-v2g-in-south-west-england/#MyEnergi

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Shared Humanity

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Re: Energy Efficiency: The “First Fuel”
« Reply #123 on: December 16, 2017, 05:15:02 PM »
The only real hope we have to solve AGW while preserving the world economy is if we can decouple energy consumption from economic growth. Transitioning to non fossil fuel sources is crucial but energy efficiency from this perspective is far more important.

Bob Wallace

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Re: Energy Efficiency: The “First Fuel”
« Reply #124 on: December 16, 2017, 05:38:51 PM »
The only real hope we have to solve AGW while preserving the world economy is if we can decouple energy consumption from economic growth. Transitioning to non fossil fuel sources is crucial but energy efficiency from this perspective is far more important.

We can't cut energy use enough to stop extreme climate change.  To do that we'd have to cut electricity use enough to not need coal and natural gas.



I can't think of any way to cut our use by 64% without very significantly impacting our lifestyles.  And the majority of people will not modify their lifestyles to that extent.

We should push for efficiency.  The less electricity we use the less coal and NG generation we need to replace with low carbon sources.

Energy use is going to grow in developing countries.  People want dependable lights, refrigerators, TVs, transportation and goods that require energy to manufacture.  We need to see that the energy used is low carbon energy because we are not going to stop development.

wili

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Re: Energy Efficiency: The “First Fuel”
« Reply #125 on: December 16, 2017, 08:04:07 PM »
"To do that we'd have to cut electricity use enough to not need coal and natural gas."

Not really, just think of cutting back on electricity as another wedge in your pie chart. The more that it can take out of coal and NG, the easier it is for alternatives to outpace them. As you say, efficiency can be part of that wedge of non-coal/gas use, as long as we can avoid unintended consequences like 'Jevons Paradox.'
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Bob Wallace

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Re: Energy Efficiency: The “First Fuel”
« Reply #126 on: December 16, 2017, 09:55:15 PM »
just think of cutting back on electricity as another wedge in your pie chart

Let me be clear.  Efficiency is definitely one wedge that we will use to replace fossil fuels.  The issue is how large can we make that wedge?

In the developed world I think we can ignore Jevons.  Electricity is only a very small portion of most people's monthly budget.  Drop the price and people aren't going go around their house turning on lights in rooms they don't use.

As prices drop in developing countries we will likely see use rise for people who have had to curtail  their use because they couldn't afford to use as much as they would like to use.

Alexander555

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Re: Energy Efficiency: The “First Fuel”
« Reply #127 on: December 16, 2017, 09:56:19 PM »
One of the reasons why we need so much energy is automatisation. If i look at the machinery we worked with at school, that was all pretty simple. If you take a milling machine. That was a steel frame, an electrical engine, a drive belt, and a steel axis with a blade on. If you look at these machines today, they have thousands of little parts on it. And for these thousands of little parts, you need xxx factories to produce them. And they both make the same product, a stairs, a window, a door.....And that automatisation is in every industry. And on top of that automatisation came the digitalisation. Another big energy consumer. With the same product as a result, a stairs, a window, a door.....

numerobis

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Re: Energy Efficiency: The “First Fuel”
« Reply #128 on: December 19, 2017, 06:31:36 AM »
At the hardware store this morning I saw 800-lumen, 2700 K lightbulbs consuming just 7 W. They also have exactly matched the shape of the traditional 60W light bulb.

That’s improved from 8.5 W for the same specs, with a small reduction from the traditional, which I bought last fall.

Even that was down from the 10.5 W bulbs I’d bought a few years ago, which only shone for 180 degrees.

All the same brand: Philips.

In the fall I also bought some bulbs from LVWIT that claimed a mere 6.5 W for the same specs, but for a clear bulb.

Remarkable how fast lighting efficiency is still improving.

Jim Hunt

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Re: Energy Efficiency: The “First Fuel”
« Reply #129 on: December 23, 2017, 01:05:33 PM »
Some festive good news on the Great British energy efficiency front, courtesy of BBC News:

http://www.V2G.co.uk/2017/12/energiesprong-energy-efficiency-retrofit-on-bbc-east-midlands-today/

Ten houses in Nottingham have become the first in the UK to pilot what’s been described as a revolutionary energy saving makeover, which should mean that residents enjoy warmer homes and reduce their bills.

The new approach comes from The Netherlands. Improvements can be installed within days whilst people still live in their homes, and the scheme is designed to pay for itself.

The Dutch call it Energiesprong, which means “Energy Leap”.
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gerontocrat

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Re: Energy Efficiency: The “First Fuel”
« Reply #130 on: December 23, 2017, 03:07:37 PM »
Looking at UK domestic electricity consumption, it seems Jevon's paradox has not yet kicked in. Consumption peaked in 2005,  and is down by nearly 15 percent, although the annual reduction has slowed (since our previous Great Leader Cameron decided to dump the "green crap" ?).
« Last Edit: December 23, 2017, 03:13:28 PM by gerontocrat »
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Bob Wallace

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Re: Energy Efficiency: The “First Fuel”
« Reply #131 on: December 23, 2017, 06:26:24 PM »
Some festive good news on the Great British energy efficiency front, courtesy of BBC News:

http://www.V2G.co.uk/2017/12/energiesprong-energy-efficiency-retrofit-on-bbc-east-midlands-today/

Ten houses in Nottingham have become the first in the UK to pilot what’s been described as a revolutionary energy saving makeover, which should mean that residents enjoy warmer homes and reduce their bills.

The new approach comes from The Netherlands. Improvements can be installed within days whilst people still live in their homes, and the scheme is designed to pay for itself.

The Dutch call it Energiesprong, which means “Energy Leap”.

They are taking energy inefficient houses and making new outside walls in factories, custom designed for the existing building (same door/window placement, etc.).  The new highly insulated walls are attached the to existing walls.  New insulated roofs and high quality windows complete the thermal 'overcoat' package.

They're using ground source heat pumps rather than boilers.  They've put solar panels on the roof and installed storage.

All of this is done while the residents continue to live in the building.  Most of the work is exterior or in the common heating system. 

There's a 30 year payback which seems to be set at the amount residents would otherwise pay for utilities so it's cost neutral for the people who live in the houses.

I question the ground source heat pump and battery storage part.  Normal mini-split heat pumps might have done just as good a job and cost less.  And I'm not sure storage will pay for itself.  It would be a lot easier to get people to sign up if their monthly expenses dropped a bit.

Bob Wallace

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Re: Energy Efficiency: The “First Fuel”
« Reply #132 on: December 23, 2017, 06:33:09 PM »
Looking at UK domestic electricity consumption, it seems Jevon's paradox has not yet kicked in. Consumption peaked in 2005,  and is down by nearly 15 percent, although the annual reduction has slowed (since our previous Great Leader Cameron decided to dump the "green crap" ?).

Electricity consumption is dropping in many developed countries.  Jevons has no role to play because, in general, there was as  much electricity as people wanted and the price was affordable.  For Jevons to come to the game there needs to be pent-up demand.

numerobis

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Re: Energy Efficiency: The “First Fuel”
« Reply #133 on: December 24, 2017, 05:09:19 AM »
Indeed.

Jevons says that if the limiting factor is price, then efficiency can increase usage. But if the limiting factor isn't price, then increasing efficiency doesn't increase usage.

Bob Wallace

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Re: Energy Efficiency: The “First Fuel”
« Reply #134 on: December 24, 2017, 05:47:44 AM »
The average monthly electricity bill in the US is $121.  The average cell phone bill is $71.  Americans spend, on average $130 on clothing per month.  $215 for entertainment.

Electricity just isn't a budget stretch for most people.  For the really poor there are assistance programs. 

sidd

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Re: Energy Efficiency: The “First Fuel”
« Reply #135 on: December 24, 2017, 07:54:26 AM »
Just looking at averages is not a complete picture. Bill Gates walks in a bar, average is a millionaire. I would like to  look at medians as well. But i cannot yet find those numbers.

Poor people have a hard time with food, rent, utilities ...

Government assistance in the USA is meager.

Given cheaper electrical prices, I am sure the poor might choose, say, to heat their homes more on cold days with an electric space heater. For example i see that the temperature in parts of ohio is expected to drop below 10F at night over the next week. Would you begrudge them warmer toes on Christmas Eve ?

And that increase in consumption is dwarfed by a single rich person flying around the world on a whim.

sidd


Bob Wallace

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Re: Energy Efficiency: The “First Fuel”
« Reply #136 on: December 24, 2017, 08:25:51 AM »
 The Low Income Home Energy Assistance Program (LIHEAP) LIHEAP is a federally funded assistance program that makes utilities affordable for those with the lowest incomes.  There probably are a few households that are above the LIHEAP qualification level but still need to conserve electricity use.  If there was a price drop they might use a bit more.  But, overall, people aren't sitting in the dark with their TVs off and eating cold beans out of can due to the price of electricity.

I have no idea why you are bringing  flying around the world into the discussion.  And this -

" Would you begrudge them warmer toes on Christmas Eve ?" 

WTF does that have to do with the discussion and why are you assuming anything about my attitude toward the poor?

oren

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Re: Energy Efficiency: The “First Fuel”
« Reply #137 on: December 24, 2017, 08:47:30 AM »
I can tell you point blank that in Israel, were electricity rates (currently ~16 cents/kwh) to go down, A/C usage as well as general electiricity usage would surely grow by a lot. OTOH, with its southern latitude, mostly clear weather and lack of snow, if/when the country is blanketed with solar panels, there'll be enough production for everyone.

Mathiasdm

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Re: Energy Efficiency: The “First Fuel”
« Reply #138 on: December 24, 2017, 08:48:21 AM »
I question the ground source heat pump and battery storage part.  Normal mini-split heat pumps might have done just as good a job and cost less.  And I'm not sure storage will pay for itself.  It would be a lot easier to get people to sign up if their monthly expenses dropped a bit.
I'm sure storage won't pay for itself right now. The Netherlands has net metering. Once that is no longer the case, the batteries might make sense.

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Re: Energy Efficiency: The “First Fuel”
« Reply #139 on: December 24, 2017, 09:27:03 AM »
I question the ground source heat pump and battery storage part.  Normal mini-split heat pumps might have done just as good a job and cost less.  And I'm not sure storage will pay for itself.  It would be a lot easier to get people to sign up if their monthly expenses dropped a bit.


Air/air heat pumps simply aren't practical when temperatures get close to freezing. They spend more energy defrosting themselves than straight resistance heating takes to heat the building. Water source (ground source) heat pumps are more efficient under all conditions.
Terry

gerontocrat

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Re: Energy Efficiency: The “First Fuel”
« Reply #140 on: December 24, 2017, 01:40:49 PM »
Indeed.

Jevons says that if the limiting factor is price, then efficiency can increase usage. But if the limiting factor isn't price, then increasing efficiency doesn't increase usage.

And this is how wikipedia describes Jevon's Paradox (no mention of price).

In economics, the Jevons paradox (/ˈdʒɛvənz/; sometimes the Jevons effect) occurs when technological progress increases the efficiency with which a resource is used (reducing the amount necessary for any one use), but the rate of consumption of that resource rises because of increasing demand.[1] The Jevons paradox is perhaps the most widely known paradox in environmental economics.[2] However, governments and environmentalists generally assume that efficiency gains will lower resource consumption, ignoring the possibility of the paradox arising.[3]
In 1865, the English economist William Stanley Jevons observed that technological improvements that increased the efficiency of coal-use led to the increased consumption of coal in a wide range of industries. He argued that, contrary to common intuition, technological progress could not be relied upon to reduce fuel consumption.[4][5]

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Bob Wallace

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Re: Energy Efficiency: The “First Fuel”
« Reply #141 on: December 24, 2017, 06:04:01 PM »
I question the ground source heat pump and battery storage part.  Normal mini-split heat pumps might have done just as good a job and cost less.  And I'm not sure storage will pay for itself.  It would be a lot easier to get people to sign up if their monthly expenses dropped a bit.


Air/air heat pumps simply aren't practical when temperatures get close to freezing. They spend more energy defrosting themselves than straight resistance heating takes to heat the building. Water source (ground source) heat pumps are more efficient under all conditions.
Terry

Terry, that's not true of modern heat pumps.  In places where the temperature falls below freezing recently developed heat pumps are fully capable of heating interiors.

If the climate is very cold but not frequently in the winter then resistive heating may be added to the system for those few really cold nights.  Only in the coldest of climates does it pay to use geothermal heat sourcing.

It looks like for current air only cold climate air-source heat pumps there's no need for supplemental heating down to 17F/-8C. 

Bob Wallace

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Re: Energy Efficiency: The “First Fuel”
« Reply #142 on: December 24, 2017, 06:17:53 PM »
Indeed.

Jevons says that if the limiting factor is price, then efficiency can increase usage. But if the limiting factor isn't price, then increasing efficiency doesn't increase usage.

And this is how wikipedia describes Jevon's Paradox (no mention of price).

In economics, the Jevons paradox (/ˈdʒɛvənz/; sometimes the Jevons effect) occurs when technological progress increases the efficiency with which a resource is used (reducing the amount necessary for any one use), but the rate of consumption of that resource rises because of increasing demand.[1] The Jevons paradox is perhaps the most widely known paradox in environmental economics.[2] However, governments and environmentalists generally assume that efficiency gains will lower resource consumption, ignoring the possibility of the paradox arising.[3]
In 1865, the English economist William Stanley Jevons observed that technological improvements that increased the efficiency of coal-use led to the increased consumption of coal in a wide range of industries. He argued that, contrary to common intuition, technological progress could not be relied upon to reduce fuel consumption.[4][5]


because of increasing demand

That assumes there is pent up demand.  Demand can be unsatisfied due to cost or limited supply.  Jevons was talking about cost.

If you read through the Wiki description it's fairly clear that they are talking about unsatisfied demand due to cost.  "Jevons observed that technological improvements that increased the efficiency of coal-use led to the increased consumption of coal in a wide range of industries" - those technological improvements lowered the cost of using coal.

In the US and other developed/wealthy countries there's abundant electricity and it's been affordable for almost all people.  Freeing up some electricity via efficiency doesn't mean that someone else will snap it up because they were starving for more.  And if the surplus creates a modest price decrease we won't see large additional use because price was not suppressing use to any appreciable degree.

ghoti

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Re: Energy Efficiency: The “First Fuel”
« Reply #143 on: December 24, 2017, 07:30:09 PM »
Jevon's Paradox has been shown not to be true in the last few years. There seems to have been a flurry of articles/blogs about this in 2011 so I presume something was published that year.

It seems to me the people who peddle Jevon's are the same people who have traditionally claimed you can't have economic growth without increased energy use and before that claimed you can't have prosperity without pollution. We now (hopefully) know better.

Here's an example of Jevon's debunking:
https://thinkprogress.org/debunking-the-jevons-paradox-nobody-goes-there-anymore-its-too-crowded-7fec531b1411/

TerryM

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Re: Energy Efficiency: The “First Fuel”
« Reply #144 on: December 24, 2017, 08:44:10 PM »

Terry, that's not true of modern heat pumps.  In places where the temperature falls below freezing recently developed heat pumps are fully capable of heating interiors.

If the climate is very cold but not frequently in the winter then resistive heating may be added to the system for those few really cold nights.  Only in the coldest of climates does it pay to use geothermal heat sourcing.

It looks like for current air only cold climate air-source heat pumps there's no need for supplemental heating down to 17F/-8C.
Bob
I've been completely out of the business since 2004, and I'm sure improvements have been made.
 It's not that  a heat pump unit isn't capable of heating an interior at below zero temperatures, rather that the built in resistive heat strips, which run along with the compressor whenever the unit is in defrost, increase the wattage until any savings over straight resistive heating has been lost.
The "sweet spot" for AC or heat pumps is 20 F, so whenever the ambient temperature is <52 degrees the outside coil will remain below 32 F and, even in the desert water vapor begins to form as ice on the coils. In more humid climes ice forms more rapidly.
The ice slows air flow past the coil and this causes the temperature to drop further, which causes ice to form even more rapidly.
To deal with the frozen coil, the unit goes into defrost mode and stays there until the ice has all been melted. During this cycle the gas flow has been reversed and as the outside coil is heating, to remove the ice, the inside coil is chilling the air inside the house - or at least it would be if not for the resistive heaters which kick in to keep the occupants cozy inside.
The old rule of thumb was that at less than 40 F (~4.5 C), ambient the wattage drawn through a complete cycle of heating and defrosting was more that it would be if the compressor was left off and only resistive heating was used. This could have been improved upon by more efficient compressor design, but the changes would be incremental. Resistive heating is not going to change.
A few caveats. I was engaged in designing large systems as opposed to wall units, window units, or even residential units. Think Caesars Palace, but not a Strip Motel. As such almost all of our work was with Water Source Heat Pumps, primarily because air/air cooling systems are not very efficient during desert summers, and all of the majors have chiller systems which allows water to be used.
Some isolated buildings nonetheless were separated from the main buildings and required air/air systems for one reason or the other.
These systems were generally 5 Tons and up, and management was very aware of operational costs. Regular maintenance and filter changes were expected so we could run a little closer to the line than most.
I can't think of any way to change the physics. Ice forms at 32 F, ice impedes airflow over the coil and acts as insulation, it requires energy and time to melt the ice, the enclosed space needs to be heated during this time. A 24 hour watt meter is required to observe the unit through time to determine the electricity used.


Have fun
Terry

Sebastian Jones

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Re: Energy Efficiency: The “First Fuel”
« Reply #145 on: December 24, 2017, 08:57:52 PM »
Hi Terry, While I don't run an air sourced heat pump presently- because it is too expensive to purchase- the Energy Solutions Branch of the Yukon government reckons they are the most efficient source of electric heating down to minus 20.
Even here, the temperature is above minus 20 most of the time (it's minus 34 right now tho!).
Ground source heat pumps don't work at here because the ground is too cold- even where it escapes being permafrost.

Bob Wallace

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Re: Energy Efficiency: The “First Fuel”
« Reply #146 on: December 24, 2017, 10:05:04 PM »
It's not that  a heat pump unit isn't capable of heating an interior at below zero temperatures, rather that the built in resistive heat strips, which run along with the compressor whenever the unit is in defrost, increase the wattage until any savings over straight resistive heating has been lost.

No, Terry.  Current heat pumps do not need resistive heating until temperatures drop below 17F/-8C.  That is significantly lower than freezing. 

The world of 2017 is not the world of 2004.  A big improvement in heat pump performance/design happened less than five years ago.

numerobis

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Re: Energy Efficiency: The “First Fuel”
« Reply #147 on: December 24, 2017, 10:14:22 PM »
To -20? Neat! NRCan says -8C. Even that is enough for most of the heating load in most of the world.

(Probably not for Iqaluit though.)

Bob Wallace

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Re: Energy Efficiency: The “First Fuel”
« Reply #148 on: December 24, 2017, 10:24:50 PM »
Ground source heat pumps don't work at here because the ground is too cold- even where it escapes being permafrost.

Vertical closed-loop earth heat exchangers are installed in boreholes 200 to 300 feet deep, where seasonal changes in soil temperature are completely damped out.  There are borehole heat pumps in operation in Alaska and in the Yukon.

If you get far enough north where the permafrost can be extremely deep then, no, maybe not.   You could pull heat out of 0C  but with no flow of water that area would continue to cool until there was no usable heat left.

numerobis

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Re: Energy Efficiency: The “First Fuel”
« Reply #149 on: December 25, 2017, 01:57:00 AM »
In the Christmas theme: 4.8 W to light a string of 70 lights on the tree. I remember those being 1 W each.