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Sigmetnow

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Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
« Reply #450 on: June 09, 2017, 08:41:24 PM »
Tesla starts Powerwall 2 installations in Australia
https://electrek.co/2017/06/09/tesla-powerwall-2-installations-australia/

Big surprise:  the unit is much lighter than expected.
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Bob Wallace

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Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
« Reply #451 on: June 09, 2017, 09:14:24 PM »
Such a small, neat package as compared to my bank of lead acid batteries.



I'm "abusing" my current lead acid batteries because I'm no longer concerned about getting them to last  ten years.  Before then I should be able to purchase a lot more storage for half or less of the current Powerwall unit.  With more storage and more solar panels I might be able to essentially eliminate my generator use.


Tor Bejnar

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Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
« Reply #452 on: June 12, 2017, 05:47:19 PM »
'Instantly rechargeable' battery could change the future of electric and hybrid automobiles
Date:June 1, 2017
Source:Purdue University
Summary:New technology could provide an 'instantly rechargeable' method that is safe, affordable and environmentally friendly for recharging electric and hybrid vehicle batteries through a quick and easy process similar to refueling a car at a gas station.
... "Ifbattery is developing an energy storage system that would enable drivers to fill up their electric or hybrid vehicles with fluid electrolytes to re-energize spent battery fluids much like refueling their gas tanks."

The spent battery fluids or electrolyte could be collected and taken to a solar farm, wind turbine installation or hydroelectric plant for re-charging.
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Bob Wallace

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Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
« Reply #453 on: June 12, 2017, 06:36:00 PM »
'Instantly rechargeable' battery could change the future of electric and hybrid automobiles
Date:June 1, 2017
Source:Purdue University
Summary:New technology could provide an 'instantly rechargeable' method that is safe, affordable and environmentally friendly for recharging electric and hybrid vehicle batteries through a quick and easy process similar to refueling a car at a gas station.
... "Ifbattery is developing an energy storage system that would enable drivers to fill up their electric or hybrid vehicles with fluid electrolytes to re-energize spent battery fluids much like refueling their gas tanks."

The spent battery fluids or electrolyte could be collected and taken to a solar farm, wind turbine installation or hydroelectric plant for re-charging.

Don't see a future for this technology.

Charging time is only an issue on long drive days.  And most of us have very few of those in a year.

When we move to robotaxis and want to go somewhere 500 miles away a fully charged EV will pick us up.  After 3-4 hours of driving, when it's getting time to recharge, the car will show us a list of restaurants, coffee shops, parks, museums, whatever that are close by and ask if we want to be dropped off.  We get out at the Jitter Bean, have a cup, a bagel with a smear, and our fully charged ride will pick us up.  Or we can ride to the charger and take a nap while the car charges.

If we're really in a hurry to get there fast we can select "pony express" robo service and when Ride A is needing a charge we can jump in Ride B and be on our way faster than pumping electrolyte.  The cost should be no different.

Then, if the Hyperloop proves out, we probably would never drive 500 miles unless we wanted to see the scenery along the way.  Or make a lot of stops.  We'd robo to the 'loop, get to our destination, and get in another robo for the 'last mile'.
--

There's no reason to transport electrolyte for recharging.  It's extremely cheaper to ship electrons than to ship liquids.  If there was a reason to adopt this technology.

Sigmetnow

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Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
« Reply #454 on: June 15, 2017, 08:05:44 PM »
Tesla is deploying Powerpacks in commercial buildings in the UK
IM Properties, a property manager and industrial developer in UK, announced that it is installing a Tesla Powerpack in one of its building in order to study the potential of completely offsetting their electric utility costs.

If successful, the company hopes to be able to offer a whole new added value to its customers by using Tesla’s Powerpacks and solar energy....
https://electrek.co/2017/06/15/tesla-powerpack-commercial-buildings-uk/

From the comments: "Most new commercial buildings here in Irvine, California, are being designed to be pack ready. I expect other builders around the country and world will follow suit in time. It's a market that will explode once commercial builders catch on en masse."
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Bob Wallace

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Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
« Reply #455 on: June 16, 2017, 04:40:40 AM »
GE's steam, gas and wind turbines make up one-third of electricity capacity around the world. Now the industrial giant has the capability to layer batteries on top of all those generators, if desired.

This week, the industrial and power giant unveiled a battery and controls package that can be integrated into any of its steam or gas turbines. Soon, it will be ready for solar, wind and hydroelectric generators. It's a solution that could change the way many power plants are used for real-time energy services.
https://www.greentechmedia.com/articles/read/ge-can-now-put-battery-storage-on-any-power-plant

Sigmetnow

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Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
« Reply #456 on: June 17, 2017, 04:14:30 PM »
Tesla wins contract with major Australian electric grid to deploy Powerpacks across several sites
...
As part of a contract awarded to Tesla, the projects will follow several more across Transgrid’s network in order to create energy storage capacity for demand response.

While the project has the same goal, it’s unrelated to the Australian government’s tender for a massive 100 MWh energy storage project that Tesla has bid on. The country’s energy problems that led to major power outages over the last year and they decided to turn to energy storage to stabilize their grid.

Tesla CEO Elon Musk promised his company could deliver the energy capacity in 100 days or it would be free. The bids are apparently down to a short list now and the project should be awarded soon – especially since a quick deployment is part of the deal.

Also, as reported earlier this month, Tesla is also deploying energy storage behind the meter in Australia. They have now started Tesla Powerwall 2 installations in the country, which is expected to be one of the most important markets for Tesla’s home battery pack.
...
https://electrek.co/2017/06/17/tesla-powerpack-australian-electric-grid/
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Sigmetnow

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Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
« Reply #457 on: June 19, 2017, 01:02:34 PM »
The chemistry and format (shape) of Tesla's new battery cells.

Tesla has confirmed that it started production of the new Model 3 battery cell at Gigafactory 1 in Nevada over the weekend – an important step toward launching the production of the Model 3.

The new battery cells are believed to be key to Tesla achieving the necessary cost reductions that enable the Model 3’s $35,000 starting price tag before incentive.

Tesla’s new 2170 format battery cells went into production back in January, but those cells were using Nickel Manganese Cobalt Oxide (NMC) chemistry for stationary energy storage products, Tesla’s Powerwall and Powerpack.

But for its vehicle battery packs, Tesla is using Nickel Cobalt Aluminum Oxide (NCA) chemistry optimized to cycled in electric vehicles.
...
https://electrek.co/2017/06/19/tesla-model-3-battery-cell-production/
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jai mitchell

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Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
« Reply #458 on: June 30, 2017, 05:37:44 PM »
China is about to bury Tesla in Batteries

https://about.bnef.com/blog/china-is-about-to-bury-elon-musk-in-batteries/

Chinese companies have plans for additional factories with the capacity to pump out more than 120 gigawatt-hours a year by 2021, according to a report published this week by Bloomberg Intelligence. That’s enough to supply batteries for around 1.5 million Tesla Model S vehicles or 13.7 million Toyota Prius Plug-in Hybrids per year, according to Bloomberg New Energy Finance.

By comparison, when completed in 2018, Tesla Inc.’s Gigafactory will crank out up to 35 gigawatt-hours of battery cells annually.

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Archimid

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Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
« Reply #459 on: June 30, 2017, 07:10:12 PM »
The question is, will they last as long as Tesla batteries?
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Sigmetnow

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Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
« Reply #460 on: June 30, 2017, 08:00:46 PM »
And that's just “Gigafactory 1.”  Musk plans to reveal the locations of perhaps four more Tesla battery gigafactories by the end of this year. :P

By 2021, Tesla itself will be producing close to 1.5 million cars (and trucks!) and the batteries thereof*.  But, thanks, China!

*Edit:  plus gWh of Powerwalls and Powerpacks!
« Last Edit: July 01, 2017, 02:32:02 PM by Sigmetnow »
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numerobis

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Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
« Reply #461 on: July 02, 2017, 03:10:25 AM »
China is about to bury Tesla in Batteries

The more the better. We need to provide tens of millions of cars plus electricity storage for every building. There's lots of room in the market.

Sigmetnow

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Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
« Reply #462 on: July 07, 2017, 12:05:51 PM »
Elon Musk: This will be the highest power battery system in the world by a factor of 3. Australia rocks!!
https://twitter.com/elonmusk/status/883169447472750592

Tesla Powerpack to Enable Large Scale Sustainable Energy to South Australia
Last September, a 50-year storm damaged critical infrastructure in the state of South Australia, causing a state-wide blackout and leaving 1.7 million residents without electricity. Further blackouts occurred in the heat of the Australian summer in early 2017. In response, the South Australian Government as a leader in renewable energy, looked for a sustainable solution to ensure energy security for all residents, now and into the future, calling for expressions of interest to deploy grid-scale energy storage options with at least 100 megawatts (MW) of capacity.

This week, through a competitive bidding process, Tesla was selected to provide a 100 MW/129 MWh Powerpack system to be paired with global renewable energy provider Neoen’s Hornsdale Wind Farm near Jamestown, South Australia. Tesla was awarded the entire energy storage system component of the project.

Tesla Powerpack will charge using renewable energy from the Hornsdale Wind Farm and then deliver electricity during peak hours to help maintain the reliable operation of South Australia's electrical infrastructure. The Tesla Powerpack system will further transform the state’s movement towards renewable energy and see an advancement of a resilient and modern grid.

Upon completion by December 2017, this system will be the largest lithium-ion battery storage project in the world and will provide enough power for more than 30,000 homes, approximately equal to the amount of homes that lost power during the blackout period.
...
https://www.tesla.com/blog/tesla-powerpack-enable-large-scale-sustainable-energy-south-australia

Tesla to build world's largest lithium ion battery in Australia
http://www.bbc.com/news/world-australia-40527784

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Sigmetnow

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Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
« Reply #463 on: July 09, 2017, 04:26:25 PM »
All The Details On Tesla's Giant Australian Battery
The consortium of Tesla and Neoen will be known as the Hornsdale Power Reserve, with the company name registered with ASIC six weeks ago. The Power Reserve will be the largest renewable generator in the state as well as home to the largest lithium ion battery in the world. Neoen deputy CEO Romain Desrousseaux believes that it will be a watershed moment for batteries and renewables in Australia and around the world: "South Australian customers will be the first to benefit from this technology which will demonstrate that large-scale battery storage is both possible and now, commercially viable. Together, the South Australian Government, Neoen and Tesla will demonstrate that renewables can provide dependable, distributable power that will turn a new page in Australia’s energy future."
At roughly five PowerPacks per MWh of energy generation, South Australia's Tesla battery setup will comprise several hundred PowerPack towers — each containing 16 individual battery pods that balance charge. The 129MWh of batteries to be installed at Hornsdale is roughly equivalent to the capacity installed into Tesla's new electric cars during five days of Model S and Model X production at its plant in Fremont, California.
https://www.gizmodo.com.au/2017/07/all-the-details-on-teslas-giant-australian-batteryt/
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NevB

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Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
« Reply #464 on: July 10, 2017, 03:10:24 AM »
Here's a great summary of the south Australia's Telsla Battery project by Giles Parkinson of RenewEnergy.

But what exactly is it? And what can it do? And how much will it cost? We try to answer some of the main questions, and dispel some of the myths.


http://reneweconomy.com.au/explainer-what-the-tesla-big-battery-can-and-cannot-do-42387/


Sigmetnow

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Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
« Reply #465 on: July 10, 2017, 09:54:55 PM »
Here's a great summary of the south Australia's Telsla Battery project by Giles Parkinson of RenewEnergy.

But what exactly is it? And what can it do? And how much will it cost? We try to answer some of the main questions, and dispel some of the myths.


http://reneweconomy.com.au/explainer-what-the-tesla-big-battery-can-and-cannot-do-42387/


Excellent article!

Electrek comments:
Of the 100MW/129MWh, around 70MW of capacity is contracted to the South Australian government to provide grid stability and system security. It will likely mostly provide frequency and ancillary services (FCAS) when needed (such as a major system fault, generator trip or transmission failure). The other 30MW of capacity will have three hours storage, and will be used as load shifting by Neoen for the Hornsdale wind farm, where it will be located. The first 70% will do what gas peaker plants used to do – something energy executives think will never be built again after 2020 in the USA. The second chunk will absorb wind generation when the grid can’t use it, and spend it when the wind slow down. Remember when they said this would never happen?
https://electrek.co/2017/07/10/egeb-russia-hacking-tesla-powerpack-australia-invisibility-solar/
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TerryM

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Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
« Reply #466 on: July 11, 2017, 05:14:08 AM »
In Ontario we gave periods when, for whatever reason, we have large amounts of electricity that we pay outrageous rates to dispose of. Is present battery storage such that it could sop up these temporary spikes for later release?
Terry



Bob Wallace

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Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
« Reply #467 on: July 11, 2017, 06:50:34 AM »
In Ontario we gave periods when, for whatever reason, we have large amounts of electricity that we pay outrageous rates to dispose of. Is present battery storage such that it could sop up these temporary spikes for later release?
Terry

Yes, assuming that what you need is short term storage (no more than a day).  And assuming the condition happens often enough. 

Another solution could be pump-up hydro storage since PuHS can store large amounts of energy for a long time at a decent cost.

If you're talking about having to pay someone to take the electricity makes it sound like nuclear.  Pretty much any other generation could just be turned off if not needed.  If the periods are short then it might make sense to pay someone to take extra coal production rather than having to cool down and reheat the plant for a short period.

BenB

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Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
« Reply #468 on: July 11, 2017, 09:49:20 AM »
You can also use pump-back plants, which are traditional hydroelectric power stations with pumping capacity added, making it possible to generate power both from the flow of the river and from pumped storage. This is very common in Spain, and some dams in the US also have this capability, see e.g.: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grand_Coulee_Dam

gerontocrat

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Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
« Reply #469 on: July 11, 2017, 12:12:37 PM »
In Ontario we gave periods when, for whatever reason, we have large amounts of electricity that we pay outrageous rates to dispose of. Is present battery storage such that it could sop up these temporary spikes for later release?
Terry
Perhaps it is not in the financial interests of the electrical generation and distribution industry in Ontario to design a smart grid and optimise energy use.?

I read somewhere that in Texas (of all places!) in 2015 17% of wind energy capacity was wasted - this was reduced to 1% in 2016. Smart grid, redesign of interconnectors etc.
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Bob Wallace

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Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
« Reply #470 on: July 11, 2017, 04:11:56 PM »
In Ontario we gave periods when, for whatever reason, we have large amounts of electricity that we pay outrageous rates to dispose of. Is present battery storage such that it could sop up these temporary spikes for later release?
Terry
Perhaps it is not in the financial interests of the electrical generation and distribution industry in Ontario to design a smart grid and optimise energy use.?

I read somewhere that in Texas (of all places!) in 2015 17% of wind energy capacity was wasted - this was reduced to 1% in 2016. Smart grid, redesign of interconnectors etc.

The 17% curtailment in Texas was due to wind farms being built in the Panhandle faster than transmission lines were built.  This not an uncommon problem.  We've seen it with German offshore wind and in China with both wind and solar.

I doesn't make financial sense to build transmission that causes a waste of only a very small percentage of generated electricity.  Once it's clear that more transmission will be justified it takes a little time to build the transmission.  ERCOT (the Texas grid) curtailed 17% of wind in 2009 but that fell to less than 8% in 2010 and fell to 1% by 2013.

TerryM

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Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
« Reply #471 on: July 11, 2017, 05:45:49 PM »
My guess is that nuclear is the problem. Ontario got rid of it's coal a year or so back, and already uses pump back hydro as well as stored hydro. Summer is the high use season now I believe, so it's probably something that crops up during winter nights. Not a lot of solar compared to other locals, but a noticeable number of wind turbines have sprouted up.
If batteries can handle the load they might prove a solution, although East / West grid extensions might be a more economical fix. Quebec, to our east has all the power they need, (and more), but the western provinces are still burning some coal and might be able to use what we have, when we have it.
Terry

rboyd

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Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
« Reply #472 on: July 11, 2017, 07:27:47 PM »
Electricity demand in Ontario has fallen quite a bit in the past couple of decades, while the province planned for an increase. We sell the excess to the US at a loss, and pay generators not to produce.

"To do this, we simply send the heat from the nuclear reactor into Lake Huron, but we don't save any nuclear fuel. We curtail wind. And we pay generators to not produce. In 2014, Ontario paid them $200 million to not produce. Sometimes we pay neighbours to take it. Or we sell it to them real cheap — under two cents/kWh. Ontario exported 12 per cent of what it produced last year, and sold much of it at very low prices."

"How did it get this way? It is actually a good news story. Ontario has reduced its demand for electricity by 12 per cent since 2005. Demand has been going down throughout the western world. Appliances are more efficient. Variable speed motors and fans are more efficient. Efficient LED lighting is exploding in popularity. Conservation programs have worked. GDP is up. Population is up. But we are using less juice. Ontario's inflexible nuclear plants continue to operate. We also added wind, solar and gas to replace coal. And we had an unanticipated and ongoing decrease in demand. So we have surplus power."

Ontario should simply build big interconnectors to Quebec and Manitoba and use their hydro and wind, and shut down the nuclear plants (instead of spending $10 billions to refurbish them). With the hydro backup (our big battery), they can then build out renewables in Ontario. It could also use all that cheap electricity to heat buildings and power electric vehicles.

http://www.davidsuzuki.org/blogs/climate-blog/2016/09/is-ontarios-surplus-electricity-a-problem/

TerryM

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Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
« Reply #473 on: July 11, 2017, 08:06:23 PM »
rboyd
Thanks for explaining the situation, and the link.
I had no idea we were doing so well, even if we are doing it at a cost.
Terry

rboyd

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Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
« Reply #474 on: July 11, 2017, 08:10:14 PM »
Thanks Terry. May also be at least partly due to deindustrialization:

The long, slow decline of the nation's industrial heartland

https://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/politics/after-the-gold-rush/article18923563/

numerobis

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Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
« Reply #475 on: July 11, 2017, 10:40:06 PM »
Manitoba is a heck of a long ways away from where the electricity is generated, and is sparsely populated. Quebec already has more hydro power than it needs, and exports a bunch of electricity to Ontario, NY, and New England.

Better to build interconnect to NY and through MI to the Midwest states to help shut down coal plants in the US. It's not like there's a wall between the countries.

numerobis

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Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
« Reply #476 on: July 11, 2017, 10:41:03 PM »
Some news about not Tesla:
https://arstechnica.com/business/2017/07/two-energy-powerhouses-join-together-to-make-big-grid-tied-batteries/

Two large energy companies, Siemens and AES Corporation, are joining together to start a new company aimed exclusively at building utility-grade batteries. The company, called Fluence, will market these large lithium-ion storage systems to utilities and energy providers around the world.

The news follows reports from last week that AES closed on a deal to build a 100MW/400MWh battery system in Southern California, which would be tied to a new, 1,284 MW combined-cycle natural gas generator. The system will replace 1960’s-era power plants in Los Alamitos, Huntington Beach, and Redondo Beach. The gas generator is expected to be online by 2020, and the storage is expected to be online by 2021.

So this is basically a baseload natural gas power plant (grrboohiss) replacing older fossil fuel plants (yay). It'll be more efficient not just from being newer, but from being at max capacity more often because the batteries can just suck up the excess or provide for the peak.

TerryM

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Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
« Reply #477 on: July 12, 2017, 01:03:50 AM »
Manitoba is a heck of a long ways away from where the electricity is generated, and is sparsely populated. Quebec already has more hydro power than it needs, and exports a bunch of electricity to Ontario, NY, and New England.

Better to build interconnect to NY and through MI to the Midwest states to help shut down coal plants in the US. It's not like there's a wall between the countries.


You may be right, but IIRC Trump has already made noises about Canada "dumping" energy. I'd just as soon thicken the border in this one instance, or at least hold off until Trump's time is up.


Terry

Sigmetnow

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Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
« Reply #478 on: July 12, 2017, 01:17:22 AM »
Some news about not Tesla:
https://arstechnica.com/business/2017/07/two-energy-powerhouses-join-together-to-make-big-grid-tied-batteries/

Two large energy companies, Siemens and AES Corporation, are joining together to start a new company aimed exclusively at building utility-grade batteries. The company, called Fluence, will market these large lithium-ion storage systems to utilities and energy providers around the world.

The news follows reports from last week that AES closed on a deal to build a 100MW/400MWh battery system in Southern California, which would be tied to a new, 1,284 MW combined-cycle natural gas generator. The system will replace 1960’s-era power plants in Los Alamitos, Huntington Beach, and Redondo Beach. The gas generator is expected to be online by 2020, and the storage is expected to be online by 2021.

So this is basically a baseload natural gas power plant (grrboohiss) replacing older fossil fuel plants (yay). It'll be more efficient not just from being newer, but from being at max capacity more often because the batteries can just suck up the excess or provide for the peak.

Although this seems to be "state of the art" today, I have the feeling that by 2020 or 2021, it will seem outmoded.
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numerobis

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Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
« Reply #479 on: July 12, 2017, 02:54:05 AM »
From further reading (there's a link in the Arg story), I get the impression that the older power plants that this is "replacing" aren't really running much if at all. They have combined capacity of 3.9 GW, whereas the new plant including the batteries tops out below 1.4 GW.

Still, AES now has funding to put in a bunch of batteries, so that's nice. 4 years from now seems unambitious... but now they have a good agreement at a nice high price, and they get to put in batteries that cost half or a quarter of what they cost when they put the bid together.

Sigmetnow

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Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
« Reply #480 on: July 15, 2017, 01:20:53 AM »
California Assembly Yanks Major Storage Bill, Pushing It to 2018

SB 700 would have funded storage incentives over 10 years. It disappeared from the Assembly’s schedule without a vote.
https://www.greentechmedia.com/articles/read/california-assembly-yanks-major-storage-bill-pushing-it-to-2018
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TerryM

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Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
« Reply #481 on: July 15, 2017, 03:32:19 AM »
I hate polluting this thread with politics, but someone needs to find out if Chris Holden, the assemblyman who is holding the bill, has been paid by energy concerns.
This smells like the Corporate California Democrats stand on single payer healthcare. When a politician does something that his constituents are against, I assume it's for personal gain.


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Terry

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Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
« Reply #482 on: July 15, 2017, 03:10:42 PM »
...Someone needs to find out if Chris Holden, the assemblyman who is holding the bill, has been paid by energy concerns.


Of course he is: https://www.desmogblog.com/2017/03/11/california-democrats-who-got-big-gifts-oil-industry-gave-big-gifts-back





But it's not just with energy; Holden seems to be an all-around scumbag: http://sierramadretattler.blogspot.com/2013/05/how-did-chris-holden-became-state.html





TerryM

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Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
« Reply #483 on: July 15, 2017, 09:48:12 PM »
As long as their loyalty is to their sponsors there is little we can do. Even getting rid of the bums during primaries may be impossible if the DNC suddenly pulls out super delegates to make the final selection.
Where is a liberal, or a progressive, or anyone concerned with climate change to turn?


Terry
Sorry about the OT, but sometimes the politics becomes such an important part of the story that it has to be discussed.

SteveMDFP

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Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
« Reply #484 on: July 23, 2017, 12:38:57 AM »
Here's an interesting development in advancing Lithium batteries:

Battery breakthrough using 2016 Nobel Prize molecule
https://phys.org/news/2017-07-battery-breakthrough-nobel-prize-molecule.html?utm_source=menu&utm_medium=link&utm_campaign=item-menu

Silicon anodes are receiving a great deal of attention from the battery community. They can deliver around three to five times higher capacity compared with those using current graphite anodes in lithium ion batteries. A higher capacity means longer battery use per charge, which is particularly critical in extending the driving mileage of all-electric vehicles. Although silicon is abundant and cheap, Si anodes have a limited charge-discharge cycle number, which is typically less than 100 times with microparticle sizes. Their volume expands enormously during each charge-discharge cycle, leading to fractures of the electrode particles or delamination of the electrode film equally, even in decaying its capacity.
A KAIST research team led by Professors Jang Wook Choi and Ali Coskun reported a molecular pulley binder for high-capacity silicon anodes of lithium ion batteries in Science on July 20.
The KAIST team integrated molecular pulleys, called polyrotaxanes, into a battery electrode binder, a polymer included in battery electrodes to attach the electrodes onto metallic substrates. In a polyrotaxane, rings are threaded into a polymer backbone and can freely move along the backbone.
The free moving of the rings in polyrotaxanes can follow the volume changes of the silicon particles. The rings' sliding motion can efficiently hold Si particles without disintegration
. . .
The authors also mention that they are currently working with a major battery maker to get their molecular pulleys integrated into real battery products.
. . .


Sigmetnow

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Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
« Reply #485 on: July 31, 2017, 08:54:50 PM »
Some details on Tesla Model 3 "2170" batteries, compared to Models S and X.

During a press briefing on Friday, Tesla CEO Elon Musk said that the 2170 cells, which were designed by both Tesla and Panasonic, were more energy dense than the cells in the Model S and Model X.

The bigger cell size also enables fewer cells per module and fewer overall modules. Musk said that there are only 3 modules in a Model 3 battery pack compared to the Model S’ 16 modules.

Beyond the cells themselves, the location where they are being made is just as important. The Model S and Model X cells are also manufactured by Panasonic, but they are made in Japan.

The Model 3 cells are manufactured at Tesla Gigafactory 1 in Nevada, where they can directly be put into Tesla’s battery packs and shipped a few hundred miles to Fremont, California. That’s a significant simplification of the supply chain.

Though the supply chain for Model 3 remains complex with about 10,000 unique parts, the battery cells are arguably one of the most important parts based on volume and weight. The shift also results in the vehicle being more American. Musk said that roughly 60% of Model 3 parts are made in the US and 70% in North America (adding Canada and Mexico), while only 30% are made overseas.
https://electrek.co/2017/07/31/tesla-model-3-battery-cells-panasonic/
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Tor Bejnar

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Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
« Reply #486 on: July 31, 2017, 09:19:31 PM »
A different sort of "battery" via Engadget

The latest from Alphabet's experimental X division? A storage solution for renewable energy. Code named "Malta," the system uses tanks of salt and antifreeze (or another hydrocarbon liquid) to create and store energy.
 
Per Bloomberg:  "The system takes in energy in the form of electricity and turns it into separate streams of hot and cold air. The hot air heats up the salt, while the cold air cools the antifreeze, a bit like a refrigerator. The jet engine part: Flip a switch and the process reverses. Hot and cold air rush toward each other, creating powerful gusts that spin a turbine and spit out electricity when the grid needs it."


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Sigmetnow

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Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
« Reply #487 on: August 02, 2017, 12:33:25 AM »
Tesla Model 3 battery cells are costing Panasonic now, but they expect to turn a profit next year
https://electrek.co/2017/07/31/tesla-model-3-battery-cells-panasonic/
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Sigmetnow

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Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
« Reply #488 on: August 03, 2017, 04:05:57 AM »
About that giant battery system Tesla is installing in Australia (See Reply #462 above.)  Never mind December.... ;) 

During the "Tesla Motors, Inc. Second Quarter 2017 Financial Results Q&A Conference Call", Elon Musk mentioned that he expects to have the installation nearly complete in 8 weeks! -- despite the shipping and logistics difficulties.  His "aspirational goal" is to announce something during the International Astronautical Congress in Adelaide at the end of September.  (Where he will also be presenting his revised SpaceX Mars plan.)

He chuckled when he was asked about all the new battery technologies that have been announced lately.  "Battery breakthrough du jour" he called it.  Even if it works in a lab, it would be years before any new tech made it to market -- if it held up in actual use.  "Solid state would be great.  We'd use it, if it worked."

The webcast and the Update letter are available here: http://ir.tesla.com/events.cfm
The battery discussion begins around minute 25.
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Sigmetnow

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Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
« Reply #489 on: August 03, 2017, 03:18:24 PM »
He chuckled when he was asked about all the new battery technologies that have been announced lately.  "Battery breakthrough du jour" he called it.  Even if it works in a lab, it would be years before any new tech made it to market -- if it held up in actual use.  "Solid state would be great.  We'd use it, if it worked."

To be clear, Tesla is not ignoring other battery research in favor of their own. Their battery group is keeping a close eye on things, and in fact has one development they are quite excited about. But as Musk says, they are the biggest lithium customer in the world. If you have a lithium battery breakthrough, you should send it to them. Or send it to an independent lab for testing. But everybody's formula works great in a PowerPoint presentation. ;D
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Sigmetnow

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Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
« Reply #490 on: August 03, 2017, 04:15:47 PM »
One-third the eventual size of Tesla's Gigafactory 1, and planned completion in 2028, but, hey....

A new massive battery gigafactory is coming to Germany
“Terra E Holding GmbH will choose one of five candidate sites in Germany or a neighboring country next month to build its 34 gigawatt-hour battery factory, Frankfurt-based Chief Executive Officer Holger Gritzka said in an interview. The former ThyssenKrupp AG manager has helped to assemble a consortium of 17 German companies and won government support for the project, which will break ground in the fourth quarter of 2019 and reach full capacity in 2028, he said.”
https://electrek.co/2017/08/03/battery-gigafactory-germany/
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Bob Wallace

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Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
« Reply #491 on: August 03, 2017, 04:56:03 PM »

One-third the eventual size of Tesla's Gigafactory 1, and planned completion in 2028, but, hey....


Musk is expected to announce the construction of two to four new Gigafactories within the next 2-3 months.  If announced then we should expect that the property has been obtained, permits lined up, initial blueprints prepared.

I think it's taking six years to completely build Gigafactory 1.  Gigafactories 2, 3, 4 and 5 could be in full production before Germany's 33% Gigafactory is running at full speed. 

This does not sound good at all if German car manufacturers intend to stay in the car business.  By 2028 Tesla could not only have eaten their lunch but be sleeping in their beds.  Surely there must be a lot more battery capacity available/going to be available for German car companies.

TerryM

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Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
« Reply #492 on: August 03, 2017, 05:14:35 PM »
If Trump's Congress' sanctions stand, Germany, and all of Europe, may be forced to pay for LNG which will have a devastating effect on manufacturing exports. Europe's response to this bill will be interesting.
Renewables and batteries may see a big jump, but more coal is the other likely response to high gas costs.
Terry

Bob Wallace

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Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
« Reply #493 on: August 03, 2017, 05:55:22 PM »
I don't understand how US sanctions on Russia might make NG prices rise.

If anything, I would think sanctions that cut into Russia's income might make them want to sell more gas.

TerryM

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Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
« Reply #494 on: August 03, 2017, 08:46:25 PM »
I don't understand how US sanctions on Russia might make NG prices rise.

If anything, I would think sanctions that cut into Russia's income might make them want to sell more gas.


Russia indeed wants to sell Europe more NG, but sanctioning Nord 2 keeps Europe from accessing the cheap, reliable Russian gas. That (American) LNG being offered as a very high priced alternative is what has Europe, Germany in particular, up in arms.


The proposed pipeline running through Syria is no longer deemed possible, so it's basically either NG in a pipe from Russia, or LNG from America - or now from Qatar, that is expected to meet Europe's growing demands.(Demand is actually flat but Eu production of gas is faltering)


Qatar is suddenly being targeted. Nord 2 may never be completed. The Russian/Turkish Pipeline is being held up, and Russia pulled out of South Stream when Europe suddenly changed the rules.


Russian pipelines to China are expanding and Russia is still stockpiling huge amounts of gold, with very little debt.
Russia will survive the latest sanctions just as she survived the prior round. This is not the American sanctioning of Japan that forced the Pearl Harbor response. Europe was hurt deeply by the last sanction/countersanction and understandably doesn't want to face more of the same, particularly having her reliable energy supplier being undermined, with no proven alternative being offered.


Europe's "retaliation" seems weak at this point in time, but America's insistence that Europe ween herself from Russian gas, at a time when Russia provides them with the cheapest, cleanest, most reliable source of energy available may prove to be asking too much from an "ally". Europe is beginning to see herself being treated more as a subordinate than as a partner.


The American Congress seems to be parroting Vicky's famous reply when asked how Europe might respond to the coup in Ukraine. FU@K the Eu.
Terry

etienne

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Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
« Reply #495 on: August 04, 2017, 08:52:27 AM »
This is out of topic, but somehow there use to be an agreement between Europe and the US that Europe would accept US military and economical leadership and that in return it would get a military  and security protection. Now everything has changed and sometimes I even wonder if US presidency is not a security risk for Europe and for the world. Sometimes you feel that they don't care for Europe and that they just want to show how big and efficient their bombs are in ordrer to impress the world.
Security against leadership acceptance was a win-win agreement, I guess it is China's development that broke the deal. Wonder what will be the future.
I see always more muscular type of behavior, also at work, don't know if it is because I get older and understand better what I see, or if there really is a cultural change. In my last job, I use to say that a win-win agreement is an agreement where the directorate wins twice.

Bob Wallace

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Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
« Reply #496 on: August 04, 2017, 10:41:00 AM »
Things are really a mess in the US right now.  Trump is much worse that pretty much anyone could have imagined. 

I think most of the world's leaders have a good idea of what is happening and I'm sure a lot of planning has gone on out of the public eye.

I think we're seeing signs that Republicans in Congress are now starting to deal with Trump.  They've blocked him from dropping the sanctions on Russia.  It looks like they might pass legislation to keep him from firing the prosecutor who is investigating him.

It's hard to say how this will all play out but I suspect the decades of the US being "the world's policeman' may be over.  And I'm not sure that's a bad thing.

etienne

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Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
« Reply #497 on: August 04, 2017, 11:08:57 AM »
Sanctions is somthing one country shouldn't decide alone. It should be coordinated with other allied countries otherwise it means that they are not allied anymore. You should never punish yourself or not related people when "punishing" somebody else, it's also the main rule when punishing kids for stupid behaviors (don't cancel the holidays, but change the password on the IT playground).

swoozle

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Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
« Reply #498 on: August 04, 2017, 04:22:11 PM »
Batteries

Tor Bejnar

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Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
« Reply #499 on: August 04, 2017, 07:01:04 PM »
When I first read "Batteries" in your post, swoozle, I thought it was an OT comment!  Then I noticed the thread's title (that is, I noticed where I was). 

My 2002 Prius got new batteries in 2009 (at ~80,000 miles and fully under warrantee!).  Anybody have an idea how long the 'new' batteries will last (now @ 135,000 miles)?  (In other words, should I put $1K down for a Model 3 - to be delivered in, approximately, 2019, or plan to buy new batteries.)
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