Please support this Forum and Neven's Blog

Author Topic: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution  (Read 99443 times)

numerobis

  • ASIF Citizen
  • Posts: 270
    • View Profile
Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
« Reply #500 on: August 04, 2017, 07:30:23 PM »
Hopefully by 2019 you'll be able to buy a decent EV without getting a 2-year waiting list. We're not living in the Soviet Union.

I'm hoping my current car makes it to the time widespread car ownership stops being a thing.

Sigmetnow

  • ASIF Royalty
  • Posts: 9356
    • View Profile
Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
« Reply #501 on: August 04, 2017, 08:32:03 PM »
When I first read "Batteries" in your post, swoozle, I thought it was an OT comment!  Then I noticed the thread's title (that is, I noticed where I was). 

My 2002 Prius got new batteries in 2009 (at ~80,000 miles and fully under warrantee!).  Anybody have an idea how long the 'new' batteries will last (now @ 135,000 miles)?  (In other words, should I put $1K down for a Model 3 - to be delivered in, approximately, 2019, or plan to buy new batteries.)

 I don't have any stats for you, but Toyota has not enjoyed great success with its Prius batteries –– I think that's one reason they gave up and turned to hydrogen instead of developing pure EVs.

By 2019, Tesla should be making over 500,000 cars a year, so with you being in the U.S., you should be able to order one without a reservation.  Plus (dare I say it ;) ), some other EV (or car service) may catch your eye by then.
People who say it cannot be done should not interrupt those who are doing it.

Bob Wallace

  • ASIF Upper Class
  • Posts: 2166
    • View Profile
Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
« Reply #502 on: August 05, 2017, 08:50:36 AM »
I would imagine that there is one or more Prius owner forums online where you might be able to get some good information.

I'd suggest that your first experience may not tell you anything about how a 'next' set of batteries might last.  Battery tech seems to be moving along at a rapid pace.

ghoti

  • ASIF Middle Class
  • Posts: 588
    • View Profile
Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
« Reply #503 on: August 05, 2017, 05:21:29 PM »
Non-plugin Prius batteries are extremely old tech - considered unusable for battery electrics. They are NiMH. Toyota's fear of Li Ion batteries prevented their advance into battery electric cars.

Tor Bejnar

  • ASIF Upper Class
  • Posts: 1494
    • View Profile
Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
« Reply #504 on: August 05, 2017, 10:23:46 PM »
I've read that 180,000 miles for Prius batteries is typical, so I have 125,000 to go, or about 18 years, given how I have been driving it!  I'll deserve a new car when I'm 80.   :)  And I'll be a safe driver then because it will be self-driving car.   :P
Arctic ice is healthy for children and other living things.

TerryM

  • ASIF Upper Class
  • Posts: 2020
    • View Profile
Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
« Reply #505 on: August 05, 2017, 10:58:30 PM »
When Prius was first introduced into the states they had a lifetime warranty on the battery, or so the saleslady informed me. I'd been concerned as at the time I lived in the desert and the extreme heat was hard on the lead acid batteries.
Terry

Sigmetnow

  • ASIF Royalty
  • Posts: 9356
    • View Profile
Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
« Reply #506 on: August 07, 2017, 04:22:25 PM »
Electric Car Boom Drives Rush to Mining's $90 Billion Heartland
Lithium scramble likened to Big Oil’s race to Middle East
Australia cementing status as a dominant supplier, UBS says
A scramble by the lithium market’s biggest players to tie up supply of the high-tech metal is gathering pace in the 170-year-old heartland of Australia’s $90 billion mining industry.

Rising Chinese demand for lithium-ion batteries needed for electric vehicles and energy storage is driving significant price gains and an asset boom in Australia, already the world’s largest lithium producer. The fast-developing hub is drawing investment and deals from global producers as well as chemical-to-battery manufacturers in China, the top consumer. ...
https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2017-08-06/electric-car-boom-drives-rush-to-mining-s-90-billion-heartland
People who say it cannot be done should not interrupt those who are doing it.

TerryM

  • ASIF Upper Class
  • Posts: 2020
    • View Profile
Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
« Reply #507 on: August 08, 2017, 02:36:39 AM »
I saw some large orchards being torn out for a massive solar installation yesterday. Left me with mixed feelings.
Terry


Sigmetnow

  • ASIF Royalty
  • Posts: 9356
    • View Profile
Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
« Reply #509 on: August 08, 2017, 03:23:01 PM »
And they are only running it 40% of the time!

Tesla Gigafactory is already producing more batteries than any other factory in the world, says Elon Musk
https://electrek.co/2017/08/08/tesla-gigafactory-battery-cell-production-elon-musk
People who say it cannot be done should not interrupt those who are doing it.

Sigmetnow

  • ASIF Royalty
  • Posts: 9356
    • View Profile
Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
« Reply #510 on: August 08, 2017, 05:41:45 PM »
 Because they are turning over a new LEAF?  ;) ;D

Nissan confirms the sale of its electric car battery business
https://electrek.co/2017/08/08/nissan-sale-electric-car-battery-business/
People who say it cannot be done should not interrupt those who are doing it.

ghoti

  • ASIF Middle Class
  • Posts: 588
    • View Profile
Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
« Reply #511 on: August 08, 2017, 06:16:45 PM »
Because they are turning over a new LEAF?  ;) ;D

Nissan confirms the sale of its electric car battery business
https://electrek.co/2017/08/08/nissan-sale-electric-car-battery-business/
Because they recognize they aren't very good at making batteries. They treat them as a commodity to be out sourced like the vast majority of part in their cars just like all major car makers. In ICE vehicles only the engines are considered a core in house part they can compete with.

This is a bad sign for the future of car makers. With EVs what is left to distinguish between brands? Design? They all copy each other. Electronics? They are mostly seriously lacking. Self-driving capability? Maybe but likely they will all outsource that too.

Bob Wallace

  • ASIF Upper Class
  • Posts: 2166
    • View Profile
Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
« Reply #512 on: August 08, 2017, 07:12:26 PM »
And they are only running it 40% of the time!

Tesla Gigafactory is already producing more batteries than any other factory in the world, says Elon Musk
https://electrek.co/2017/08/08/tesla-gigafactory-battery-cell-production-elon-musk

Tesla is running only 30% of the total Gigafactory 40% of the time.  They're still building 70% of the plant.  More batteries than any other factory in the world at 12% target output.

And Tesla is going to start construction on 2 to  4 more.  They be battery makin' fools....

numerobis

  • ASIF Citizen
  • Posts: 270
    • View Profile
Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
« Reply #513 on: August 08, 2017, 10:57:50 PM »
I just learned a childhood friend is into batteries and has founded a company providing batteries to replace portable generators:
http://www.portable-electric.com

It seems like an obvious fit.

TerryM

  • ASIF Upper Class
  • Posts: 2020
    • View Profile
Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
« Reply #514 on: August 09, 2017, 12:28:09 AM »
I just learned a childhood friend is into batteries and has founded a company providing batteries to replace portable generators:
http://www.portable-electric.com

It seems like an obvious fit.



A nice concept. Locally concerts and fairs all seem wired through the grid, but this might allow events to be held at more remote sites.
Terry

Sigmetnow

  • ASIF Royalty
  • Posts: 9356
    • View Profile
Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
« Reply #515 on: August 10, 2017, 01:30:03 AM »
So many batteries, so little time: Tesla is using battery cells from Samsung (not its usual partner, Panasonic) to build its power packs for the giant Australia storage project.

Tesla’s giant new Powerpack project in Australia will use battery cells made by Samsung
On a conference call hosted by Goldman Sachs for bondholders following Tesla’s new bond issuance earlier this week, Musk said that Tesla would actually use Samsung cells in the Powerpacks for the major project in South Australia, according to sources who were on the call.

That’s a significant project to partner on with Samsung since it represents more energy capacity on a single project (129 MWh) than Tesla delivered in all its Powerpack projects combined during the entire last quarter (97 MWh).

While Korea-based Samsung SDI is making the cells, Tesla is still building the Powerpacks for the project at the Gigafactory in Nevada. ...
https://electrek.co/2017/08/09/tesla-powerpack-project-australia-battery-cell-samsung/
People who say it cannot be done should not interrupt those who are doing it.

Neven

  • Administrator
  • ASIF Governor
  • *****
  • Posts: 4054
    • View Profile
    • Arctic Sea Ice Blog
Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
« Reply #516 on: August 10, 2017, 02:32:43 AM »
Okay, so the lithium is mined in Australia, shipped to Korea where they make the batteries, shipped to Nevada where they assemble the Powerpacks, and then shipped back to Australia again for instalment.

Sounds to me like there's some room for LCA improvement there!  ;)
Il faut cultiver notre jardin

Bob Wallace

  • ASIF Upper Class
  • Posts: 2166
    • View Profile
Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
« Reply #517 on: August 10, 2017, 02:38:26 AM »
Okay, so the lithium is mined in Australia, shipped to Korea where they make the batteries, shipped to Nevada where they assemble the Powerpacks, and then shipped back to Australia again for instalment.

Sounds to me like there's some room for LCA improvement there!  ;)

Correct.  I think we're going to soon hear about upcoming construction to build a Tesla battery factory in Australia.  Due to very high electricity prices, cheap rooftop solar, and a lot of end-user solar already installed Australia should be a place where Tesla will sell a lot of their storage units. 

If Tesla does announce four new Gigafactories in the next month or two I expect one in Australia, one in the US, one in Europe and one in Asia.

Sigmetnow

  • ASIF Royalty
  • Posts: 9356
    • View Profile
Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
« Reply #518 on: August 10, 2017, 03:53:38 PM »
Don't know why we talk of PV in the battery trend....

Oops!  Quite right.  "Solar in Japan" post moved to Renewable Energy thread:

https://forum.arctic-sea-ice.net/index.php/topic,256.msg124652.html#msg124652
People who say it cannot be done should not interrupt those who are doing it.

numerobis

  • ASIF Citizen
  • Posts: 270
    • View Profile
Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
« Reply #519 on: August 11, 2017, 05:17:15 PM »
Okay, so the lithium is mined in Australia, shipped to Korea where they make the batteries, shipped to Nevada where they assemble the Powerpacks, and then shipped back to Australia again for instalment.

Sounds to me like there's some room for LCA improvement there!  ;)

I wonder how much the shipping adds in cost (carbon cost or dollar cost). My bet: minimal.

Sigmetnow

  • ASIF Royalty
  • Posts: 9356
    • View Profile
Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
« Reply #520 on: August 15, 2017, 03:56:43 AM »
“Carlsson said that they aimed to produce advanced li-ion battery cell in different formats with a cost below $100 per kWh.”

Former Tesla execs launch funding effort for their own battery gigafactory in Europe
The actual start of production is expected in 2020 with a capacity of 8 GWh per year and they aim for 32 GWh of capacity once the entire factory will be completed in 2023. It’s comparable to Tesla’s expected production capacity in 2018 for Gigafactory 1 in Nevada.
https://electrek.co/2017/08/14/former-tesla-execs-funding-battery-gigafactory-europe/
People who say it cannot be done should not interrupt those who are doing it.

Bob Wallace

  • ASIF Upper Class
  • Posts: 2166
    • View Profile
Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
« Reply #521 on: August 15, 2017, 05:22:28 AM »
If someone can get battery prices below $100/kWh and maintain good cycle life then things are really going to be shaken up.  Given that there's no sign this company is also intending to build cars they would become a source for really affordable batteries in Europe and someone is going to use them to grab a lot of market away from ICEVs.

Let's hope they can pull it off.

Sigmetnow

  • ASIF Royalty
  • Posts: 9356
    • View Profile
Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
« Reply #522 on: September 14, 2017, 06:07:23 PM »
During Hurricane Irma’s Power Outages, Some Houses Kept The Lights On With Solar And Batteries
In Antigua, which managed to escape severe damage during Irma (unlike nearby Barbuda), the government has been installing microgrids throughout the island for critical infrastructure like hospitals and storm shelters. Those microgrids run partially on solar and battery power.
https://www.fastcompany.com/40467003/during-irmas-power-outages-some-houses-kept-the-lights-on-with-solar-and-batteries
People who say it cannot be done should not interrupt those who are doing it.

Sigmetnow

  • ASIF Royalty
  • Posts: 9356
    • View Profile
Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
« Reply #523 on: September 14, 2017, 06:52:20 PM »
Looks like the big Australia battery project should be finished by the end of September!

Tesla is holding a ‘celebration’ event at its new giant Powerpack project on Sept 29
https://electrek.co/2017/09/13/tesla-celebration-event-giant-powerpack-site-sept-29/
People who say it cannot be done should not interrupt those who are doing it.

silkman

  • ASIF Citizen
  • Posts: 206
    • View Profile
Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
« Reply #524 on: September 14, 2017, 09:57:11 PM »
Drax, the UK's biggest power station, in East Yorkshire is planning to install "up to" 200MW of battery storage as part on an investment programme to convert its remaining two coal fired units to gas. The other four units have been converted to biomass, controversially sourced from the SE US:

http://www.powerengineeringint.com/articles/2017/09/drax-plans-world-s-largest-battery-storage-facility.html

Makes the 22 behind the meter 4kw units we've just installed in Cheshire social housing with the help of a government grant look puny. They're reducing electricity bills for the tenants by around 35% though.

Sigmetnow

  • ASIF Royalty
  • Posts: 9356
    • View Profile
Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
« Reply #525 on: September 28, 2017, 09:15:42 PM »
Tesla is ramping up installations of its Powerwall version 2 home batteries.

Tesla Powerwall 2 installations finally start to accelerate
https://electrek.co/2017/09/27/tesla-powerwall-2-installations-swell/

Tesla unveils ‘Founder series’ red Powerwall 2 and prepares deliveries
https://electrek.co/2017/09/28/tesla-founder-series-red-powerwall-2/

(Historical Note: "Founders series" Tesla cars have gone to the earliest buyers, been more expensive than the regular versions of the car, and have been a unique red color not otherwise available.)
People who say it cannot be done should not interrupt those who are doing it.

Sigmetnow

  • ASIF Royalty
  • Posts: 9356
    • View Profile
Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
« Reply #526 on: September 29, 2017, 09:49:08 PM »
Update on the huge Tesla battery project on South Australia.  The interconnection agreement with the local utility has been signed, which was the requirement to start the deadline for Elon Musk’s bet to “deliver the project in 100 days or it’s free.”  A good chunk of it is already up and running (see the bottom video in the linked article).

First look at Tesla’s new ‘most powerful battery system in the world’ project in Australia
https://electrek.co/2017/09/29/tesla-new-giant-powerpack-project-in-australia/
People who say it cannot be done should not interrupt those who are doing it.

Sigmetnow

  • ASIF Royalty
  • Posts: 9356
    • View Profile
Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
« Reply #527 on: September 29, 2017, 10:00:13 PM »
Cross-posted frm the Hurricane 2017 thread.  Great news!

Tesla is sending hundreds of battery packs to power outage-ridden Puerto Rico
Now we learn that Tesla has been quietly shipping Powerwalls to Puerto Rico ever since the hurricane cleared. Bloomberg first reported yesterday and Tesla later confirmed to Electrek.

They have now sent ‘hundreds’ of battery packs to be paired with solar installations in the ravaged region in order to help restore power faster to a certain degree. ...
https://electrek.co/2017/09/29/tesla-powerwall-battery-packs-to-power-outage-ridden-puerto-rico/
People who say it cannot be done should not interrupt those who are doing it.

etienne

  • ASIF Citizen
  • Posts: 229
    • View Profile
    • About energy
Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
« Reply #528 on: October 06, 2017, 05:01:21 PM »
Did anybody already heard of the
http://aquionenergy.com/technology/deep-cycle-battery/ ?

I found a reference in the renewable energy trend.

Sound too good to be true. I heard that the hydrogen was a byproduct of water batteries, so I am a little bit surprised.

Bob Wallace

  • ASIF Upper Class
  • Posts: 2166
    • View Profile
Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
« Reply #529 on: October 06, 2017, 05:28:57 PM »
Aquion has been around for a long time (in terms of new battery tech).  They were seen as promising a few years back and then sort of disappeared into the fog of companies that claimed they had a good solution but never delivered.

I have no idea if they might have solved some problems that would allow them to become a player or if someone is "making themselves a salary".

Looking at their comparison list they are not as good as lithium in terms of capacity and energy delivery.  Density is not too large a problem as long as they are vastly larger per kWh.  Energy density problems might mean that they are best for deep storage rather than grid management.

I've become a strict Missourian when it comes to batteries.  Show me.  Show me your product in operation in the real world and show me reliable real world data.

We'll see....

Sigmetnow

  • ASIF Royalty
  • Posts: 9356
    • View Profile
Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
« Reply #530 on: October 07, 2017, 02:29:14 AM »
Cross-posted frm the Hurricane 2017 thread.  Great news!

Tesla is sending hundreds of battery packs to power outage-ridden Puerto Rico
Now we learn that Tesla has been quietly shipping Powerwalls to Puerto Rico ever since the hurricane cleared. Bloomberg first reported yesterday and Tesla later confirmed to Electrek.

They have now sent ‘hundreds’ of battery packs to be paired with solar installations in the ravaged region in order to help restore power faster to a certain degree. ...
https://electrek.co/2017/09/29/tesla-powerwall-battery-packs-to-power-outage-ridden-puerto-rico/

Update:

Tesla to stop Powerwall shipments to installers price gouging in Puerto Rico
“Tesla sent the battery packs, but after speaking with locals trying to get them installed, Electrek learned that local installers are difficult to reach and some are charging as much as $12,000 for a Powerwall with the installation.”

That’s a premium of as much as 50% on the price that Tesla lists on its website.

Elon Musk: "Tesla always charges the same price for a Powerwall (only taxes & shipping costs vary), so something is messed up here. I've asked my team to stop shipment to any installers charging excessive premiums."
...
“The internal Tesla Powerwall install team in PR is very small right now. Sending experienced installers from continental US to hire & train local team as fast as possible.”


The installation is apparently the current bottleneck for getting the Tesla Powerwall in Puerto Rico so that initiative is likely to accelerate the deployment.

There are apparently a lot of rooftop solar installations that survived the two hurricanes but they could use the home battery packs as their grid connections are currently useless.
https://electrek.co/2017/10/06/tesla-powerwall-installers-price-gouging-puerto-rico/
People who say it cannot be done should not interrupt those who are doing it.

numerobis

  • ASIF Citizen
  • Posts: 270
    • View Profile
Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
« Reply #531 on: October 07, 2017, 08:41:57 PM »
I got beaten to the punch! First powerwall in Canada north of 60 just got installed.

http://www.cbc.ca/beta/news/canada/north/inuvik-power-wall-tesla-no-outage-1.4345092

The install cost seems insane.

Bob Wallace

  • ASIF Upper Class
  • Posts: 2166
    • View Profile
Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
« Reply #532 on: October 07, 2017, 09:10:50 PM »
The install cost is insane.  I wonder how large a crew was flown in to do the installation. 

And why?  Seems like this is something that could be done by a local electrician.  Worst case they might need to do a training video and do some over the web supervision.


ghoti

  • ASIF Middle Class
  • Posts: 588
    • View Profile
Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
« Reply #533 on: October 07, 2017, 11:23:07 PM »
Inuvik, population 3200 is very unlikely to have specialists of any trade. Flight to Inuvik from Edmonton $2000 for each installer. Enough electrical work to take two days for 2 people = expensive!

It is crazy expensive to do anything in the NWT and Nunavut. A gallon of milk costs $10.50.

The Powerwall has a fixed price from Tesla so no surprise it was the least expensive part of the project.

wili

  • ASIF Upper Class
  • Posts: 2011
    • View Profile
Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
« Reply #534 on: October 08, 2017, 12:05:44 AM »
"A force de chercher de bonnes raisons, on en trouve; on les dit; et après on y tient, non pas tant parce qu'elles sont bonnes que pour ne pas se démentir." Choderlos de Laclos "You struggle to come up with some valid reasons, then cling to them, not because they're good, but just to not back down."

numerobis

  • ASIF Citizen
  • Posts: 270
    • View Profile
Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
« Reply #535 on: October 08, 2017, 02:10:27 PM »
Every little community has an electrician who built the houses in the first place and is maintaining them — and lots of people have backup power (normally from a generator). It might be you can’t get the Tesla certified installer without flying them in.

ghoti

  • ASIF Middle Class
  • Posts: 588
    • View Profile
Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
« Reply #536 on: October 08, 2017, 06:21:34 PM »
Every little community has an electrician who built the houses in the first place and is maintaining them — and lots of people have backup power (normally from a generator). It might be you can’t get the Tesla certified installer without flying them in.
Ah! So one great way to promote future renewable energy is affordable would be to get the one electrician trained and certified to these installations. Perfect type of government program to help people help themselves. There's no way this electrician could afford to fly to Tesla for training but it would probably cost less than a couple of installations to do it. Then the future price of battery installations would drop dramatically.


Bob Wallace

  • ASIF Upper Class
  • Posts: 2166
    • View Profile
Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
« Reply #537 on: October 08, 2017, 06:57:09 PM »
Installing solar systems is pretty simple stuff.  I've done three residential systems and I have no electrician background.

We're now at the point where the system can be basically 'plug and play'.  I spent at least a full day wiring my 16 panels for my current system.  Take off the junction box cover.  Install waterproof nuts for cable. Cut and strip wires, bend the ends and insert them under the appropriate lug screws, replace the junction box cover.

Now panels come pre-wired.  You just plug them together much like plugging a lamp cord into the wall outlet.

Entire systems can be designed online.  The components can be shipped along with step by step instructions.  Anyone with basic building skills should be able to install a system.

We could even do remote inspections for those places where there isn't a building inspector close by.  Do an inspection by smartphone with the inspector instructing the installer to show them the job and critical details.