Batteries: Today's Energy Solution

[jai mitchell]

Investor Whitney Tilson shorted Tesla’s stock from ~$35 to ~$205 from early 2013 to early 2014, an experience that he described as “traumatic” and something he lost a lot of money on.

LOL.  Yea....shorting from $35 to $205 would be more than a little painful.

For those of you that don't know.....a "short position" is a bet AGAINST A STOCK GOING UP IN PRICE.  If it goes UP....you lose money.  It is also using "borrowed money"....so there is a "cost" for keeping a short position on.  You only make money if the price of the stock GOES DOWN.

There were a LOT of people betting against Tesla for various reasons...and they have all been wrong SO FAR (and I believe they will continue to be wrong).

when discussing climate with deniers I STRONGLY advocate that they invest in coal stocks, short solar and EVs and invest the rest of their life savings in Miami beachfront property 

[mati]

Self driving vehicles have a big headache, and that is safety certification of hardware and software ( i work on safety certified software that is in many many airframes).  This includes making the self driving features unhackable (like the sw that FLIES an airplane).

The cost to certify is reasonable for the airlines when looking at the price per unit of a say 787, and the development time.  However for automotive, most systems now are "driver assist" systems not self driving.

While the push is on for self driving vehicles, i guess that they are really about 10-15 years away before hardware and software get to a maturity level where they are certifiable.

otherwise the driver must be behind the wheel, and ready to take over as the safety function for the vehicle.

[Sigmetnow]

Heads up, battery nerds!   

"Tesla’s Senior Director of Cell Supply Chain & Business Development, Kurt Kelty, and its battery cell research partner, Jeff Dahn of Dalhousie University, will both present at the upcoming International Battery Seminar & Exhibit in March."

Tesla to reveal more about its new Gigafactory battery cell production at trade show in March
https://electrek.co/2017/01/16/tesla-gigafactory-battery-cell-production/

[jai mitchell]

Self driving vehicles have a big headache, and that is safety certification of hardware and software ( i work on safety certified software that is in many many airframes).  This includes making the self driving features unhackable (like the sw that FLIES an airplane).

The cost to certify is reasonable for the airlines when looking at the price per unit of a say 787, and the development time.  However for automotive, most systems now are "driver assist" systems not self driving.

While the push is on for self driving vehicles, i guess that they are really about 10-15 years away before hardware and software get to a maturity level where they are certifiable.

otherwise the driver must be behind the wheel, and ready to take over as the safety function for the vehicle.

electrification of freight transport will require an installed third rail system on the nation's thoroughfares.  I envision auto merge capability and when a care links to the system the provided electricity both propels the vehicle and charges the battery.  on this system a simple merge and spacing acceleration/deceleration drive system could maintain autonomous function during the long haul.  This will also work for personal vehicles.  The great thing about this is that speeds could be increased safely, within the design features of the vehicle.  It is certainly feasible for a system to be designed that allows 100+ mph travel on these thoroughfares.  If a maglev feature is later developed to provide actual rail connection (an elevated railway that the cars can drive up to and then link up with tires off the ground) then speeds in excess of 200 MPH could be safely developed. 

This system would radically transform the transport dynamics of freight and allow for reduced battery sizes in vehicles without range anxiety.  IT would also allow for rapid long-distance autonomous travel.

[Sigmetnow]

Batteries can almost, “instantaneously provide multiple services and switch from providing one service to another” on the grid, such as providing stability, demand/charge balancing, and replacing natural gas plants.  But how do they create revenue?

FERC

The Federal Energy Regulatory Commission yesterday issued a policy statement clarifying that electric storage resources may concurrently recover their costs through cost-based and market-based rates, while also outlining possible approaches for avoiding double recovery.

http://www.utilitydive.com/news/ferc-policy-statement-upholds-concurrent-cost-recovery-for-energy-storage-r/434385/


Report from the Rocky Mountain Institute:
THE ECONOMICS OF BATTERY ENERGY STORAGE
HOW MULTI-USE, CUSTOMER-SITED BATTERIES DELIVER THE MOST SERVICES AND VALUE TO CUSTOMERS AND THE GRID

UTILITIES, REGULATORS, and private industry have begun exploring how battery-based energy storage can provide value to the U.S. electricity grid at scale. However, exactly where energy storage is deployed on the electricity system can have an immense impact on the value created by the technology. With this report, we explore four key questions:
1. What services can batteries provide to the electricity grid?
2. Where on the grid can batteries deliver each service?
3. How much value can batteries generate when they are highly utilized and multiple services are stacked?
4. What barriers—especially regulatory—currently prevent single energy-storage systems or aggregated  eets of systems from providing multiple, stacked services to the electricity grid, and what are the implications for major stakeholder groups?

http://www.rmi.org/Content/Files/RMI-TheEconomicsOfBatteryEnergyStorage-FullReport-FINAL.pdf

[lurkalot]

I haven't been following the policy and solutions streams so apologies if this is in the wrong place or already well-discussed.  Batteries are obviously one factor in dealing with grid spikes from renewables, but there also seems to be an option of turning CO2 into methane.  See http://www.electrochaea.com/

[Sigmetnow]

Showing the importance of quality manufacturing:

Samsung Finally Explains the Galaxy Note 7 Exploding Battery Mess

In the case of the first battery, Samsung pointed to a design flaw in the upper right corner that, in some cases, caused the positive and negative tabs to break down, resulting in a short circuit.

The second battery, which came from another manufacturer, was apparently faulty because of a welding defect that could cause the battery to catch fire, it said.

http://www.nbcnews.com/tech/tech-news/samsung-finally-explains-galaxy-note-7-exploding-battery-mess-n710581

[Sigmetnow]

Tesla quietly brings online its massive – biggest in the world – 80 MWh Powerpack station with Southern California Edison

After announcing the project back in September, we have now learned that Tesla and Southern California Edison (SCE) have completed the massive 80 MWh energy storage station using Tesla’s new Powerpack 2 at the Mira Loma substation.

There are a few bigger projects in various phases of development, but it looks like this one is the biggest energy storage project in the world using lithium-ion batteries currently in operation....

https://electrek.co/2017/01/23/tesla-mira-loma-powerpack-station-southern-california-edison/

[sedziobs]

Two Harvard scientists believe they have produced metallic hydrogen. Their feat, which has eluded physicists for more than 80 years, would mark an important breakthrough in physics, not only because it demonstrates a fundamental new property of the most abundant element in the universe, but because the metallic form is predicted to remain a superconductor at room temperature. If that turns out to be true, and an efficient means of producing it can be devised, the applied uses of metallic hydrogen could be transformative: superconductors, for example, transmit electricity without resistance and could be used to create lossless, superconducting magnetic storage for the electrical grid, and frictionless maglev trains.

http://www.harvardmagazine.com/2017/01/metallic-hydrogen

[sidd]

Re: superconductivity at room T of metallic hydrogen

1)not experimentally established
2)even stipulating 1), the pressure at which hydrogen becomes metallic is gargantuan. How exactly are those pressures going to be applied to a superconducting transmission line ?

[sedziobs]

Theoretically, metallic hydrogen will remain metallic at room temperature and pressure, similar to carbon in diamond form.  Though, as you say, that has yet to be experimentally determined. 

[Csnavywx]

Re: superconductivity at room T of metallic hydrogen

1)not experimentally established
2)even stipulating 1), the pressure at which hydrogen becomes metallic is gargantuan. How exactly are those pressures going to be applied to a superconducting transmission line ?

Yeah, while neat -- it's a long damn way off.

Metallic hydrogen should be metastable and superconducting up to 290K, but as you said, not verified. Even when/if it is, the process to create enough of it to matter will be a herculean effort in itself.

[DrTskoul]

Re: superconductivity at room T of metallic hydrogen

1)not experimentally established
2)even stipulating 1), the pressure at which hydrogen becomes metallic is gargantuan. How exactly are those pressures going to be applied to a superconducting transmission line ?

Yeah, while neat -- it's a long damn way off.

Metallic hydrogen should be metastable and superconducting up to 290K, but as you said, not verified. Even when/if it is, the process to create enough of it to matter will be a herculean effort in itself.

And it will only take one to change phase abruptly  for the whole effort to die immediately.

[jai mitchell]

Five-Minute Recharging Batteries Coming Early as 2020
Next-generation hyper-charging batteries will be a game-changer for the EV industry

StoreDot CEO Doron Myersdorf says the company will demonstrate its hyper-charging FlashBattery in 2017. The company has already demonstrated mobile phone batteries that can be recharged in 5 minutes, and it's hoping this next-generation battery will speed consumer adoption of electric vehicles.





http://www.thedrive.com/news/6402/five-minute-recharging-batteries-coming-early-as-2020?utm_content=bufferdc75d&utm_medium=social&utm_source=twitter.com&utm_campaign=buffer

[ghoti]

How inspiring is a company who's video of a fast charging electric car makes ICE vrooming noises as it pulls away after charging?

Leaves me shaking my head and mumbling vapourware.

[Sigmetnow]

How inspiring is a company who's video of a fast charging electric car makes ICE vrooming noises as it pulls away after charging?

Leaves me shaking my head and mumbling vapourware.

From the The Drive article (December 8, 2016):

At present, most electric vehicles take 30 minutes to refill batteries 80% using 50kW DC fast-charging stations. Teslas can recharge a bit faster, using its proprietary network of 120kW Superchargers. But no cars on the market this year or next can take advantage of hyper-charging using the 350kW charging stations auto manufacturers will begin installing in Europe next year.

Two weeks later, Musk tweeted that Supercharger V3.0 was in the works, and that a 350kW charger was perhaps "a children's toy" in comparison to it. 

[Neven]

Isn't this megauberhypersuperduper-charging a bit dangerous? How far do you have to stand from that thing while charging your car? And I'm not just talking about electrosensitive people.

[magnamentis]

Isn't this megauberhypersuperduper-charging a bit dangerous? How far do you have to stand from that thing while charging your car? And I'm not just talking about electrosensitive people.

generally a good and relevant point. there are so many claims and hypes about fast charging while most people dunno or forget that the faster we charge our batteries the shorter their life time and the more dangerous it is.

considering the resources needed to manufacture batteries for everyone and everything, form smartphones to cars and more to come, the life time of batteries are a very important factor when it comes to real sustainability which i currently doubt anyways with the actual technology. of course there will be (is) steady improvement and it's better than sticking to fuel and cole but still, if mankind again falls for faster higher longer this technology's gonna bear it's very own risks and polluting potential.

[sidd]

"Isn't this megauberhypersuperduper-charging a bit dangerous?"

About as dangerous as fuelling with diesel or gasoline. The energy tranferred to the vehicle and power flux are actually larger in petroleum fuelling because of the superior efficiency of electric drivetrains.

[ghoti]

and of course gasoline in cars is hyper-safe...

U.S. fire departments responded to an estimated average of 152,300 automobile fires per year in 2006-2010. These fires caused an average of 209 civilian deaths, 764 civilian injuries, and $536 million in direct property damage.

http://www.nfpa.org/public-education/by-topic/property-type-and-vehicles/vehicles

[magnamentis]

"Isn't this megauberhypersuperduper-charging a bit dangerous?"

About as dangerous as fuelling with diesel or gasoline. The energy tranferred to the vehicle and power flux are actually larger in petroleum fuelling because of the superior efficiency of electric drivetrains.

all true what you say while there is a significant difference (among others)

while the safety during fuelling a vehicle can largely be controlled because the danger mostly related to
human behaviour, the danger in electric incidents is mostly hidden somewhere in the wiring and or insulating parts.
(samsung N7 as one of the most recent examples)

BTW no-one said there is no danger in anything where energy flows, even hour biggest life spender and friend the sun is dangerous if not handled with due respect and a certain level of education.

the point was that again, for my taste, speed is too high on the agende while we should finally start to give things their proper time instead of buying time with risk and damaging the entire planet.

the urge for speed ( in economy ) comes mostly from the forced growth inflicted through interest on interest, hence a from day one doomed monetary system where mankind puts decades or centuries of energy (efforts) into to make it last a bit longer simply to ultimately fail anyways as we can observer first hand these days. ( those who open their eyes and don't turn their heads)

[NeilT]

"Isn't this megauberhypersuperduper-charging a bit dangerous?"

About as dangerous as fuelling with diesel or gasoline. The energy tranferred to the vehicle and power flux are actually larger in petroleum fuelling because of the superior efficiency of electric drivetrains.

Not quite.

If you have a look at the how stuff works on Lithium Ion batteries, you get a base level view of the mechanisms.  Lithium Polymer is essentially the same but lighter and more easily formed into different shapes.

Two key points from that article.

A lithium-ion battery pack must have an on-board computer to manage the battery. This makes them even more expensive than they already are.

There is a small chance that, if a lithium-ion battery pack fails, it will burst into flame.

Lithium batteries are composed of hundreds of smaller cells, each cell linked by the onboard computer for charging and discharging.  It is the job of the microprocessor to check the heat of each of the cells and direct charge power away from overheating cells.

Later in the article it shows the separating layers in the cells.  This is what failed, mainly, in the Samsung Galaxy Note7, allowing the anode and cathode to short and go on fire.

So when you are shoving massive amounts of power into these batteries, you are, essentially, pushing more small chunks of power, in parallel, to more small cells.

Of course as your battery degrades and the cells start to heat more when charging, your supercharger is going to take longer to charge them.

Also, of course, with so many cells charging in parallel, the chance that your battery will have a critical failure goes up a bit.  In the end it's all down to the computer and build quality.

The fun part.  All those note7's which burst into flames?  12wh.  Tesla batteries?  85kwh.  Sounds like quite a bonfire.  Would you charge up in the garage, attached to your house?  Well it is safe.  Sort of.  That's never happened before has it??  Well not actually charging anyway.

But, yes, the technology is volatile, especially in an accident which may puncture the battery pack.

The article does go on to say that 17 cars, in the US, catch fire every hour.  But then there are circa 300m cars in the us.  If you scaled that up to all Tesla cars sold so far it would be 62.  So I guess they're not doing so bad right now.

[Villabolo]

A Toyota plug-in Prius gets 50 mpg with a 22 mile range on electric power alone. If the electric only range would come out to 100 miles we would have a vehicle with a range of 600-700 (10-12 gallon gas tank) with a combination of both.

That will allow for electric only driving for most of our needs and the other 500+ miles in case we're going on a long trip. With such a range we won't have to worry about finding a charging station but could instead recharge it at our convenience at home overnight.

While improving battery technology can add to our currently meager mileage, a redesign of the vehicle would be a better option.

One design would be to have the electric motor integral to the wheel thus freeing up space in the engine compartment. Such technology already exists for electric bicycle. Transmission could be eliminated saving weight. This can easily allow a vehicle to be a 4-wheel drive.

You can also have batteries located inside of car doors and rear panels.

This video is a version of an integrated motor/wheel/suspension system:



Also, http://evworld.com/news.cfm?newsid=25224

[magnamentis]

http://www.swatchgroup.com/en/group_profile/innovation_powerhouse/industry_4_0_overview/a_revolutionary_battery_by_belenos

http://car-serviced.com/2017/01/30/super-battery-swatch-30-percent-more-power/

[Sigmetnow]

Isn't this megauberhypersuperduper-charging a bit dangerous? How far do you have to stand from that thing while charging your car? And I'm not just talking about electrosensitive people.

 One of the problems with fast charging has been the thickness of the charging cable required with higher voltages.   Liquid cooling has generally been required, although workarounds are in development.

 Tesla developed a creepy-looking "snake charger" so that charging could be done autonomously:

 Perhaps we will see something of that ilk rolled out -- Musk does plan for cars to be able to charge themselves without human intervention, so a car can drive someone autonomously as far as necessary.

But, yes, I can see the instructions now:  Plug it in... and stand back!   

I do love your name, "megauberhypersuperduper-charging."  Every time someone announces a more powerful charger, they rachet up the name; I think we're up to super-ultra-fast charging, so far. 

[Sigmetnow]

80MWh of energy storage, brought online in 3 months.  Fast!

Tesla CTO: our energy storage is growing as fast as we can humanly scale it

Last week, we reported that Tesla quietly brought online its massive 80 MWh Powerpack station on Southern California Edison‘s grid a few weeks back. The two companies are now officially inaugurating the project at the Mira Loma substation today and Tesla CTO JB Straubel made a few comments about the company’s growing stationary energy storage business.

Tesla brought the project online in 3 months (94 days to be precise). Straubel told Bloomberg:

“There were teams working out there 24 hours a day, living in construction trailers and doing the commissioning work at two in the morning. It feels like the kind of pace that we need to change the world.” ...

https://electrek.co/2017/01/30/tesla-cto-energy-storage-growing-as-fast-as-we-can-humanly-scale-it-gallery-powerpack-station/

[Sigmetnow]

 And a related article from Bloomberg:

"But the battery’s day is coming, while those of natural gas peaker plants are numbered."

Tesla’s Battery Revolution Just Reached Critical Mass
Three new plants in California show how lithium-ion storage is ready to power the grid.

... Three massive battery storage plants—built by Tesla, AES Corp., and Altagas Ltd.—are all officially going live in southern California at about the same time. Any one of these projects would have been the largest battery storage facility ever built. Combined, they amount to 15 percent of the battery storage installed planet-wide last year.
...
Battery costs and profitability for utilities are difficult to evaluate. Companies are reluctant to give up their pricing data, and the expense is highly variable. Nevertheless, battery plants take up a much smaller footprint than gas-powered plants, they don’t pollute, and their instant response can provide valuable services better than any other technology. In a small but increasing number of scenarios, batteries are already the most economical option.

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2017-01-30/tesla-s-battery-revolution-just-reached-critical-mass

[Neven]

One of the problems with fast charging has been the thickness of the charging cable required with higher voltages.   Liquid cooling has generally been required, although workarounds are in development.

 Tesla developed a creepy-looking "snake charger" so that charging could be done autonomously:

 Perhaps we will see something of that ilk rolled out -- Musk does plan for cars to be able to charge themselves without human intervention, so a car can drive someone autonomously as far as necessary.

But, yes, I can see the instructions now:  Plug it in... and stand back!   

I do love your name, "megauberhypersuperduper-charging."  Every time someone announces a more powerful charger, they rachet up the name; I think we're up to super-ultra-fast charging, so far. 

Thanks, Sigmet, that's what I was getting at. Cable thickness and everything.

I know that gas/diesel is explosive stuff. I'm not saying it's better. But imagine that diesel is used in a generator to generate that amount of electricity. That'd be either a big generator, or a lot of smaller ones. And then all of that power pumped through a cable?

Like magnamentis says: everything has to be super-fast because that's what the dominating paradigm demands. So, no change there.

[Sigmetnow]

Meanwhile, SAE wireless charging test standards are up to a whopping 3.7 and 7.7kW, and looking for a 11kW standard in 2017.  
No wonder Tesla is not a big player in this Standards group!  With bigger EV batteries and fast charging on the way, this idea seems outdated before it even gets started.  And I definitely wouldn't want to be sitting in the car with wireless charging underway!

SAE releases global standard for wireless charging
https://chargedevs.com/newswire/sae-releases-global-standard-for-wireless-charging/

[ghoti]

I'm surprised at an apparent fear of powerful charging equipment. The kinds of voltages and power levels required are already extremely common in industrial settings worldwide.

Many homes in Europe have 400V mains service. Large industrial motors can require 150 kW. Factories often require 830 V service. We've known for more than 100 years how to manage the kind electricity for fast charging safely.

Water cooling of charging cables is only being considered to enable use of very thin cables. Not necessary but being considered to make handling the cables more convenient.

North Americans can't believe people have 220V outlets all over residential buildings in Europe ( you should see the size of 220V plugs required for ovens and clothes driers in NA).

Anyway all this to suggest just because you are unfamiliar with the use of high power electricity doesn't mean it is so novel and dangerous. It really is much much less dangerous than driving around at high speed with a liquid bomb under the car - something we're all very comfortable doing.

[Archimid]

Maybe this is useful for some of you. A while ago Musk hinted that charging at 350kW was planned. This person made the following blog post. In it he examines the theoretical maximum charging capacity of model S/X. I learned a lot from it.

"Charging a Tesla S/X at 350kW: Plausible!"

https://syonyk.blogspot.com/2017/01/charging-tesla-sx-at-350kw-plausible.html

[nicibiene]

I really don' t like that desire to that superduperfasterstrongerbetter- disruptive-charging. Who the hell would need that? Not to be aware as sexistic  ,  but it is a kind of male competition with a lack of sight on the real things that matter, that are needed. Just recently looked at a German statistic about the daily driven average distance of all cars: 40 kilometers 14.000 km/a, the average of all! Normally a car could be loaded comfortable over night, for the range you want to drive the next day. Those Tesla chargers as a whole carry the danger to destroy the grid infrastructure. Just park them all at the chargers and let them suck energy. I'm not sure if the current german grid infrastructure would like it. I don't feel comfortable with that unhealthy competition.... and I still doubt about the humanistic intentions and financial supporters that drive Musk. Enviromental heroism or the aim of disruption?

Very interesting view on Musks changing mood abot DT: http://www.businessinsider.de/why-elon-musk-is-changing-position-on-trump-2017-1?r=US&IR=T
The Marsmission project could also be used as a nice revival of Bioshere 2, Bannon tried to enter, as a climate change believer: http://www.motherjones.com/politics/2016/08/stephen-bannon-donald-trump-biosphere-2-arizona
Survival rooms for the upper class of winners might be useful after erasing the world's entire mess...

[Sigmetnow]

Nicibiene,
The desire for ultra-fast charging is to remove one of the last "inconveniences" of EV versus ICE cars:  a quick fill-up during a long trip.  At one point, Tesla even tried a Battery Swap station in California; a Tesla could have a charged battery installed in less time than it took to fill up a comparable ICE vehicle with gas (they did both during a live event; actually did two swaps in the allotted time).  But the practice never caught on.

The Chevy Bolt's user manual says its maximum charge rate is 25 miles (40 km) an hour -- not exactly conducive to travel outside of the battery's range.


Archimid,
Tesla has a Supercharger version 3.0 in the works.  When asked if it might be 350kW, Elon Musk replied 350kW would be a children's toy in comparison!

Tesla Supercharger V3 Teased By Elon Musk: CEO Compares 350 kW Charger To A Children's Toy
http://www.techtimes.com/articles/190150/20161226/tesla-supercharger-v3-teased-by-elon-musk-ceo-compares-350-kw-charger-to-a-childrens-toy.htm

[magnamentis]

Nicibiene,
The desire for ultra-fast charging is to remove one of the last "inconveniences" of EV versus ICE cars:  a quick fill-up during a long trip.  At one point, Tesla even tried a Battery Swap station in California; a Tesla could have a charged battery installed in less time than it took to fill up a comparable ICE vehicle with gas (they did both during a live event; actually did two swaps in the allotted time).  But the practice never caught on.

The Chevy Bolt's user manual says its maximum charge rate is 25 miles (40 km) an hour -- not exactly conducive to travel outside of the battery's range.


Archimid,
Tesla has a Supercharger version 3.0 in the works.  When asked if it might be 350kW, Elon Musk replied 350kW would be a children's toy in comparison!

Tesla Supercharger V3 Teased By Elon Musk: CEO Compares 350 kW Charger To A Children's Toy
http://www.techtimes.com/articles/190150/20161226/tesla-supercharger-v3-teased-by-elon-musk-ceo-compares-350-kw-charger-to-a-childrens-toy.htm

the swapping approach should be the solution IMO, it's being worked on in israel right now and i support this idea for more than 5 years already. simply roll-in and roll-out a battery pack. for this the placement of batteries in the cars underfloor would have to become a standard. anyways standards have to be found under all circumstances to build an efficient infrastructure for replenishing EVs no matter how.

the only thing that would be necessary IMO is that the age of the battery has to be accounted for, means that if i drive in with an empty new battery and get a full 2 years old battery in return i would have to get credited for the difference in a normed manner, this would even allow to get fuelled and getting some cash (credit) when needed and those who are in good economical conditions would prefer the newer units, would have some social effect so that if someone is broke he can still making it from CA to his new job in NY or similar :-)

[nicibiene]

Nicibiene,
The desire for ultra-fast charging is to remove one of the last "inconveniences" of EV versus ICE cars:  a quick fill-up during a long trip.

Already realized Sigmetnow that you are a believer in Tesla cars.  I just had a look at the new Bolt (not so bad that car-could be an option for us  ) - they write about a range of 238 miles/charge and a charging speed of 90 miles/30 min - that would make appr. 80 min for a full charge.

Generally I would say that mobility has to be rethought completely. Your arguments might be relevant for long travelling business men in a hurry, demanding a personal car  but not for ordinary people, working, shopping and some daily leisure activities-not here in Europe (might be US is different with distances to go). By the way there could be other ways to do business meetings-there is so much progress in our way to communicate-a lot of business trips could soon be obsolent, replaced by video conferences (3D-holographic or that stuff)?

Why should I own a car with a range I only use on a longer holiday trip with the entire family? Paying higher taxes, insurances, space to park it, energy to move it? Why not baking smaller breads and rent a car if you want it-change the entire car when the battery is low and continue the trip with the next waiting full charged car? 

It is all thought traditionally -to avoid "inconviniencies"- , without any willingness to ask different questions, to reduce our demands, to show some more modesty. To get aware of the real costs of luxury and convienence.

Teslas way might be impressive, but as I arlready pointed out-it is hard to desribe my scepticism...

In the end that high speed charging is also a matter of the national grid capacity. I think it is no coincidence that Renault sells their new 40 kWh ZOE with a slow charging unit here in Germany.

[jai mitchell]

Three massive grid-level battery storage plants are going live in California



Tesla’s Battery Revolution Just Reached Critical Mass

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2017-01-30/tesla-s-battery-revolution-just-reached-critical-mass

California is mandating that its utilities begin testing batteries by adding more than 1.32 gigawatts by 2020. For context, consider this: In 2016, the global market for storage was less than a gigawatt.

California’s goal is considerable, but it’s dwarfed by Tesla’s ambition to single-handedly deliver 15 gigawatt hours 1 of battery storage a year by the 2020s—enough to provide several nuclear power plants–worth of electricity to the grid during peak hours of demand.

[Sigmetnow]

Nicibiene,
The desire for ultra-fast charging is to remove one of the last "inconveniences" of EV versus ICE cars:  a quick fill-up during a long trip.

Already realized Sigmetnow that you are a believer in Tesla cars.  I just had a look at the new Bolt (not so bad that car-could be an option for us  ) - they write about a range of 238 miles/charge and a charging speed of 90 miles/30 min - that would make appr. 80 min for a full charge.

....

Your points are well taken.  I will say:
- There is still much confusion about the Bolt's actual fast-charge capacity:
https://electrek.co/2016/12/09/chevy-bolt-dc-charging-question-80kw-or-50kw-heres-what-we-know-and-why-were-still-confused/
Regardless, as you mention, for many people the Bolt's range is more than enough for daily driving!

And yes, we are close to having a major change in transportation habits.  Car ownership will decline; cars-on-demand will provide more flexibility for special travel needs.  Increasing telecommunication will decrease the need to travel at all, in more circumstances.

The "inconvenience" factor is important today mostly because we need to get people out of their ICE cars and into EVs (if they must have a car).  And anything ICE drivers see as a worse option than a gas car is a reason they see for not changing.  Just a few years ago, EVs were viewed as golf carts: ugly, low range, and slow.  But since Tesla ( ) and others like the LEAF proved that did not have to be the case, EVs are now a viable alternative for an everyday car.  Also, the premium price an EV required (because of the new tech) is decreasing to where, a few years from now, an EV will be cheaper than a comparable ICE car.

[Sigmetnow]

 Lithuania makes a pitch for the next gigafactory to be located in Kruonis.

Lithuania wants the ‘Tesla Gigafactory 2’, so they built one in Minecraft
https://electrek.co/2017/02/02/tesla-gigafactory-lithuania-minecraft/

[Sigmetnow]

Bowing to complaints, Standards Australia revised its recommendation and the comment period for the proposed regulation.

Tesla Powerwall advocates fight proposed ban on in-home lithium ion battery storage systems in Australia
http://www.teslarati.com/proposed-au-ban-lithium-ion-battery-systems/

[Sigmetnow]

Posting this mostly for the video:  Panasonic battery cell production at the Gigafactory.

Tesla Powerwall 2 now ready to ship after strong pre-orders, early Gigafactory battery production went to Powerpacks
https://electrek.co/2017/02/17/tesla-powerwall-2-gigafactory/

[Sigmetnow]

Lithium, cobalt, and battery recycling

How to invest in the resource boom that Tesla Gigafactory and electric vehicles are creating

"Other minerals are also likely to benefit from the increasing battery demand due to the growing electric vehicle industry, like nickel and graphite, but due to the current production capacity, lithium and cobalt are the more critical in the short-term."

https://electrek.co/2017/02/21/how-to-invest-resource-tesla-gigafactory-battery-electric-vehicles/

[Sigmetnow]

Global Gigafactory Boom Means $100/kWh Battery Cost Milestone - When EVs Will Beat Other Cars On Cost - Is 2 Years Away. Maximum.
https://twitter.com/assaadrazzouk/status/835754409875419137

Full infographic at the link.

[Sigmetnow]

Speaking at the event, California Public Utilities Commissioner Michael Picker said, “I didn’t expect to see these kinds of prices in batteries until 2022, 2024 …we are far in advance of where we expected to be.”

Largest grid-tied lithium ion battery system deployed today in San Diego

The president of AE Energy Storage praised his team for bringing “two projects online in record time,” a comment that many made at the Tesla battery inauguration as well. Because of the immediacy of the potential natural gas storage last summer, both AES Energy Systems and Tesla were chosen to build new systems for utilities based on how quickly the installations could be put in place. Future battery systems are not expected to go up quite as quickly.

Energy companies have traditionally shied away from installing battery systems at their plants because they’ve tended to be expensive. But as prices for energy storage come down and states like California require more and more intermittent renewable energy on utilities’ grids, battery installations have been on an upswing.

https://arstechnica.com/science/2017/02/as-ca-bill-aims-for-100-renewable-by-2050-utility-starts-30mw-battery-system/

[Sebastian Jones]

The father of the lithium battery is working on a next generation of battery.
And, of interest to me, it will work down to minus 60.
https://m.techxplore.com/news/2017-02-lithium-ion-battery-inventor-technology-fast-charging.html

[nicibiene]

Maybe I should go for some mining rights here in old Saxony, where cobalt had been found some centuries ago....  😅

http://www.irishtimes.com/life-and-style/motors/electric-car-makers-on-battery-alert-as-hedge-funds-stockpile-cobalt-1.2987018

[Sigmetnow]

The graphic referenced in Reply #391 has been criticized elsewhere as being out-dated. So here's another....

https://twitter.com/davidlawrenceus/status/838481475033006080

https://electrek.co/2017/03/06/electrek-green-energy-brief-10-gigafactories-to-replace-us-auto-fleet/

[Sigmetnow]

Former Tesla executives plan their own Gigafactory in Sweden to bring battery cost down below $100/kwh

Tesla’s former Vice President of Supply Chain Management, Peter Carlsson, has officially launched his new startup called North Volt along with another former Tesla supply chain executive, Paolo Cerruti, and financed by Swedish investors.

The executives plan to build their own Gigafactory for li-ion batteries in Sweden. They have the ambitious goal to bring down the cost of batteries below $100/kWh....

https://electrek.co/2017/03/07/former-tesla-executives-gigafactory-sweden/

[Sigmetnow]

Tesla in talks with Australian utilities to fix country’s power problems by deploying large-scale energy storage

At the launch of the Tesla Powerwall 2 in Australia yesterday, Lyndon Rive, SolarCity’s former CEO who is now Tesla’s Vice President of Energy products since the acquisition, said that the company is in talks with local utilities to quickly deploy large-scale energy storage.

Prime Minister Malcolm Turnbull recently declared a national energy emergency as parts of the country were under prolonged power outages due to its unstable grid.

We reported last year on a South Australia’s state-wide blackout, which ended up boosting Tesla Powerwall demand by ’30 times’.

The Australia government, which has been known for encouraging fossil fuels, currently counts on peaker plants and “clean coal” to fix the issue, Rive claimed that Tesla could do it better and faster.

He referenced the 80MWh Powerpack station with Southern California Edison in Los Angeles, which they built and brought online in just 90 days.

South Australia would need more than a 80MWh project to stabilize its grid, but Rive seemed confident that Tesla could make it happen. He said (via AFR):

“We don’t have 300 MWh sitting there ready to go but I’ll make sure there are, […] We could install everything and get it up and running within 100 days,” ...

https://electrek.co/2017/03/09/tesla-fix-australias-power-problems-energy-storage/

[Sigmetnow]

Wow!

Tesla battery boss: We can solve SA's power woes in 100 days

Mike Cannon-Brookes‏: Lyndon & @elonmusk - how serious are you about this bet? If I can make the $ happen (& politics), can you guarantee the 100MW in 100 days?

Elon Musk: @mcannonbrookes Tesla will get the system installed and working 100 days from contract signature or it is free. That serious enough for you?


Tesla Gigafactory: Elon Musk shows confidence in new battery production, says could deliver 100+ MWh in 100 days or free
https://electrek.co/2017/03/10/tesla-gigafactory-elon-musk-confidence-battery-production/

[Sigmetnow]

Tesla battery boss: We can solve South Australia's power woes in 100 days

...Mr Rive said the $US5 billion Gigafactory had brought a "step function" reduction in battery costs per unit of capacity, and the Powerwall 2 would pack twice the capacity of its predecessor - 14KWh - in a case 30 per cent smaller, for the same cost.

Cost down

He said the cost for large installations had come down to $US400-600 per kilowatt hour of capacity depending on the configuration, or about $US50 million ($A65 million) per 100MWh, with reductions for large scale installations.

The Powerwall 2 units - $10,000 installed in Australia - could be stacked for larger households or businesses, up to 9 in each stack, carrying about a 126KWh of capacity. Eight stacks would pack a MWh. They will be ready for delivery in Australia next month. ...

http://www.afr.com/news/tesla-battery-boss-we-can-solve-sas-power-woes-in-100-days-20170308-gut8xh

Edit:  SA Greens Senator Sarah Hanson-Young replied to Musk: “Let’s talk!”
https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2017/mar/10/elon-musk-i-can-fix-south-australia-power-network-in-100-days-or-its-free