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Sigmetnow

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Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
« Reply #600 on: January 23, 2018, 10:07:22 PM »
And the payback period for that big battery in Australia?  Oh, maybe a year or two. ;) 8)
(I’m guessing when the first “Save us!” tweets went out to Elon last year, South Australia had not even considered these sorts of paybacks!)

Tesla’s giant battery in Australia made around $1 million in just a few days
https://electrek.co/2018/01/23/tesla-giant-battery-australia-1-million/
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gerontocrat

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Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
« Reply #601 on: February 03, 2018, 03:33:57 PM »
The Breakneck Rise of China’s Colossus of Electric-Car Batteries
The key to overtaking Tesla by 2020? Lots of government help for EVs.


https://www.bloomberg.com/news/features/2018-02-01/the-breakneck-rise-of-china-s-colossus-of-electric-car-batteries

Worth a read
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Sigmetnow

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Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
« Reply #602 on: February 03, 2018, 04:52:08 PM »
The Breakneck Rise of China’s Colossus of Electric-Car Batteries
The key to overtaking Tesla by 2020? Lots of government help for EVs.


https://www.bloomberg.com/news/features/2018-02-01/the-breakneck-rise-of-china-s-colossus-of-electric-car-batteries

Worth a read

More, more, more!  Musk says 100 gigafactories could supply all the world’s battery energy needs (not just for cars — and he plans to build about ten of them).  Let’s get a move on.
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numerobis

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Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
« Reply #603 on: February 03, 2018, 06:12:53 PM »
I'm seeing this as the biggest risk to Tesla as a corporate entity: that it could get swamped by lower-cost (but equally-good) Chinese batteries given strong government support over there.

If it does, that means the world wins because it has low-cost batteries, just like the world is winning because China pushed PV and Denmark pushed wind over the top to become cheap power sources.

Sigmetnow

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Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
« Reply #604 on: February 03, 2018, 06:41:34 PM »
I'm seeing this as the biggest risk to Tesla as a corporate entity: that it could get swamped by lower-cost (but equally-good) Chinese batteries given strong government support over there.

If it does, that means the world wins because it has low-cost batteries, just like the world is winning because China pushed PV and Denmark pushed wind over the top to become cheap power sources.

China has long-standing quality issues in many industries, so let’s hope their batteries turn out to be as good as ones made elsewhere.  Tesla has a few years’ head start on volume price reductions; their Powerwall and Powerpack battery prices have been lower than most competitors, not higher, even without subsidies.  And their low cost estimates for the Tesla semi truck still baffles many folks. 

Regardless, battery demand will outstrip supply for at least the next decade, giving many players a shot at succeeding in the business.
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numerobis

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Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
« Reply #605 on: February 03, 2018, 10:34:51 PM »
In the 1980s, people were annoyed at all the cheap Japanese crap on the market. Now they're known for quality. I see the same happening with China. You *can* buy low-quality goods from China (and if you go for the cheapest thing you can find, you will), but you can get high-quality ones as well.

TerryM

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Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
« Reply #606 on: February 04, 2018, 12:33:52 AM »
In the 1980s, people were annoyed at all the cheap Japanese crap on the market. Now they're known for quality. I see the same happening with China. You *can* buy low-quality goods from China (and if you go for the cheapest thing you can find, you will), but you can get high-quality ones as well.
I've still got my fathers ivory fronted, leather holstered, slide rule made in "Occupied Japan". In the 50's they were already well known for making inferior knock offs. It wasn't until their cars and cameras gained a well deserved reputation that Japanese products were seen in a favorable light.
Chinese industry is following the same well worn path.
Terry

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Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
« Reply #607 on: February 04, 2018, 03:10:58 AM »
If China can produce a significantly cheaper battery that meets the technical requirements of Tesla cars or battery products, Tesla wins and wins big. They have the infrastructure, the technical expertise and the brand to be ahead of everyone else in many markets. Cheap batteries would just make their products cheaper.
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Bob Wallace

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Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
« Reply #608 on: February 04, 2018, 06:17:40 AM »
China's low cost labor advantage is shrinking with higher wage demands and an aging population.  It probably is not going to work in China's favor long term to manufacture batteries and cars in China and ship to the US.

Over the near future I suspect Tesla will make the $35k and up EVs with GM and Nissan duking it out for the long range <$30k market.  Perhaps Ford will jump out from behind the curtain and surprise everyone but I see no signs yet.

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Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
« Reply #609 on: February 04, 2018, 10:03:24 AM »
Nobody seems to have mentioned Buffett backed BYD recently:

https://www.fastcompany.com/40517240/the-biggest-electric-vehicle-company-youve-never-heard-of

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BYD isn’t well-known outside of its home market, China. But it’s the world’s largest maker of electric vehicles–sorry, Tesla–and is growing rapidly and expanding globally.

Outside of its home market, Hu says, “The biggest thing BYD has to overcome is the perception that Chinese products are poor quality.” He adds that this barrier is subsiding, though, as Chinese manufacturing quality across industries improves. Just as consumers are buying Chinese-branded mobile phones from companies such as ZTE and Huawei, more will buy Chinese-branded autos, he says.

Also helpful to BYD’s brand image: Berkshire Hathaway’s Mid American Energy Holdings has an 8% ownership stake in the company, giving it the imprimatur of legendary investor Warren Buffett. “Having Warren Buffett’s blessing has definitely helped reshape BYD’s image, both in the domestic and international markets,” Hu says.

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Sigmetnow

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Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
« Reply #610 on: February 06, 2018, 03:24:12 PM »
How batteries are taking a bite out of the fossil fuel business. (Cross-post from Renewables thread.)

Tesla’s giant battery in Australia is already eating away at ‘gas cartel’s’ profits, report says
Quote
When an issue happens or maintenance is required on the power grid in Australia, the Energy Market Operator calls for FCAS (frequency control and ancillary services) which consists of large and costly gas generators kicking in to compensate for the loss of power.

These services are so costly that it can sometimes amount to up to $7 million per day – or 10 times the regular value of the energy delivered.

Electricity rates can be seen reaching $14,000 per MW during those FCAS periods.

Now Renewecomy reports that FCAS were required on January 14, but the prices didn’t skyrocket to $14,000 per MW and they instead were maintained at around $270/MW after a short spike.

The bidding of Tesla’s 100MW/ 129MWh Powerpack project in South Australia on the services is credited with escaping the price hike, which would have cost energy generator and consumers millions in costs.

The Powerpack system is able to switch from charging to discharging in a fraction of a second, which allows Neoen, the operator of the system, to quickly respond when frequency issues happen. ...
https://electrek.co/2018/02/06/tesla-giant-battery-australia-gas-cartels-profit-report/
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Sigmetnow

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Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
« Reply #611 on: February 12, 2018, 06:34:05 PM »
Update on Tesla’s Nevada Gigafactory.  Most of the new construction is happening inside.

Tesla Gigafactory in Nevada tops $1.3 billion in construction costs
Quote
Tesla filed 112 new building permits for its Nevada Gigafactory during 2017, with the electric car maker and energy company investing another $379.9 million on the now-$1.3 billion facility. ...
https://www.teslarati.com/tesla-gigafactory-1-tops-1-3-billion-construction-costs/
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Tor Bejnar

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Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
« Reply #612 on: February 13, 2018, 06:08:28 PM »
Article (and interesting video) on converting a Tesla Model S battery pack to an off-grid house battery system.  Think Progress
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Sigmetnow

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Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
« Reply #613 on: February 13, 2018, 08:49:29 PM »
Article (and interesting video) on converting a Tesla Model S battery pack to an off-grid house battery system.  Think Progress

Impressive!
The chemistry of the Powerwall cells is different than the cells for a Tesla car, due to differing loads, conditions, etc., which is why Tesla doesn’t push V2G.  It would be interesting to see how this system holds up — the batteries in the cars seem to hold up quite well over time.

Tesla probably had to require the $500 down payment on an off-grid system in order to limit the number of inquiries they receive to serious inquiries only.  I imagine lots of people are curious about the possibility.  :)
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TerryM

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Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
« Reply #614 on: February 17, 2018, 01:03:32 AM »
How many charging cycles before a battery needs to be replaced? Also, does the number of charging cycles supported depend on how deep the discharge cycle was?
The reason I'm asking is that a battery driven airplane was linked to a while back and they were calculating that each ~one hour flight cost $20.00 to pay for the new battery when it's required after so many flights.
Now that they are using batteries in "peaker" installations I'd imagine there are many short bursts of (deep)? discharge, followed by many short charging cycles. Does each charging cycle shorten the batteries life, or is it a function of the total Wattage that is cycled through the system?
Thanks
Terry

Sigmetnow

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Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
« Reply #615 on: February 17, 2018, 02:10:24 AM »
How many charging cycles before a battery needs to be replaced? Also, does the number of charging cycles supported depend on how deep the discharge cycle was?
The reason I'm asking is that a battery driven airplane was linked to a while back and they were calculating that each ~one hour flight cost $20.00 to pay for the new battery when it's required after so many flights.
Now that they are using batteries in "peaker" installations I'd imagine there are many short bursts of (deep)? discharge, followed by many short charging cycles. Does each charging cycle shorten the batteries life, or is it a function of the total Wattage that is cycled through the system?
Thanks
Terry

Terry,
Great questions!  And these are ones still being answered!

The battery cell chemistry, cell size, thermal conditioning system, type and speed of charging and discharging are all factors in battery degradation, so there are no simple answers.  And ths is why one battery does not fit all situations, and the characteristics of one type of battery may be quite different than another. 

Battery management software can control depth and speed of charging and discharging, which of course will differ over different uses.  A big utility battery farm will be sized and controlled to make best use of its capabilities without damaging it.  I imagine the battery life estimate for an airplane must be kept very conservative, for safety’s sake!


Tesla is accumulating data on its EV batteries, which do have a liquid thermal management system, and which seem to be holding up rather well.
Quote
The data clearly shows that for the first 50,000 miles (100,000 km), most Tesla battery packs will lose about 5% of their capacity, but after the 50,000-mile mark, the capacity levels off and it looks like it could be difficult to make a pack degrade by another 5%.

The trend line actually suggests that the average battery pack could go another 150,000 miles (200,000 miles total) before coming close to 90% capacity.

Interestingly, high-speed, “Supercharging” of the Tesla batteries, even daily, is associated with less degradation. (See link below.)

Tesla battery data shows path to over 500,000 miles on a single pack
https://electrek.co/2016/11/01/tesla-battery-degradation/


In contrast, for example, the battery in the Nissan LEAF is merely air-cooled, and is known to degrade significantly in hotter climates.
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TerryM

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Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
« Reply #616 on: February 17, 2018, 06:03:01 PM »
Thanks Sigmet


I burned out the battery in my Roomba, tore it apart and found it was only one of a number of interconnected batteries that was shot. At some point I'll buy a replacement cell and solder it in with the rest.
With Roomba, one bad cell brings down the whole unit. I'm sure this isn't true with the much more complex batteries used for transportation. It's not impossible however that rather rudimentary refurbishment of these batteries could lengthen their lifetimes considerably.


Terry

Sigmetnow

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Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
« Reply #617 on: February 17, 2018, 06:34:28 PM »
Came across this article that has lots of pictures, comparing the batteries of the Nissan Leaf, Chevy Volt, and Tesla Model S.

A Tale of 3 Battery Packs
https://cleantechnica.com/2016/01/06/a-tale-of-3-battery-packs/

Quote
There are other advantages that go with Tesla’s cylindrical cell approach. They can have many cells in parallel and any one cell can fail, but the pack will still work.
 Both GM Volt and Nissan Leaf are series cell arrangements. Just as in Christmas lights, if any cell fails, the whole pack fails.
 The downside to so many cells is that it’s harder to guarantee they all work.
 The downside to fewer cells is that they must all work.
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oren

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Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
« Reply #618 on: February 18, 2018, 09:00:25 AM »
Came across this article that has lots of pictures, comparing the batteries of the Nissan Leaf, Chevy Volt, and Tesla Model S.
Interesting. It helps the unenlightened such as me to understand better how these cars are constructed and the strategic decisions that go into the battery design.

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Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
« Reply #619 on: February 18, 2018, 08:20:50 PM »
Grid Defection Is On the Rise in Puerto Rico

https://www.greentechmedia.com/articles/read/grid-defection-on-the-rise-in-puerto-rico

Quote
On the value of energy storage: “You don’t have to explain that to anyone in Puerto Rico.”
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Sigmetnow

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Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
« Reply #620 on: February 18, 2018, 08:40:33 PM »
Tesla spells out why energy markets are failing battery storage, big and small
Quote
...Tesla says the current structure of the market does not properly value its service – perhaps not surprising given that speed and versatility that has not been seen before, as we highlighted here: Speed of Tesla big battery leaves rule-makers struggling to catch up.

Tesla is not a lone voice on this, even if the opening of the Tesla big battery at Hornsdale makes it the most prominent. Battery storage developers all point out that the considerable value propositions of batteries storage are simply not recognised by a market designed to reward coal and gas.

Tesla illustrates two main areas where that occurs.  One is its ability to respond to “contingency” events on the National Electricity Market, such as its rapid response to the December 14 trip of a unit of the huge Loy Yang A brown coal generator in Victoria.

Tesla responded to that outage in a matter of milliseconds, faster than the coal units specifically contracted to provide the contingency response (called upon when frequency falls below 49.8Hz).
...
Tesla also cites the flexibility in the battery – rapid changes in charging and discharging in response to market needs and price signals – but says it is disadvantaged by current rules.  These rules force it to register as both a generator and market load to provide both charging and discharging services.

Tesla says this results in a more conservative approach to bidding because it has to estimate whether a charge or discharge service is likely to be more valuable to the market within a given dispatch period.

A more efficient system would allow it to be able to submit a single dispatch bid for both generation and load services, and allow the market [to] determine whether charging or discharging provides the greatest market value for a given dispatch period. ...
http://reneweconomy.com.au/tesla-spells-markets-failing-battery-storage-big-small-50489/
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Sigmetnow

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Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
« Reply #621 on: February 18, 2018, 10:02:00 PM »
Another utility + residential battery storage project — this time in Canada.

Tesla deploys Powerpacks and Powerwalls to build an ‘intelligent grid’ in Nova Scotia
https://electrek.co/2018/02/18/tesla-powerpack-powerwall-intelligent-grid-nova-scotia/
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Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
« Reply #622 on: February 24, 2018, 03:06:27 AM »

Tesla deployed over 300 Powerwalls in Hawaiian schools to cool down hot classrooms


https://electrek.co/2018/02/23/tesla-powerwall-hawaii-school/

Quote
As part of a state initiative, Tesla deployed over 300 Powerwalls in schools to cool down hot classrooms in Hawaii.

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TerryM

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Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
« Reply #623 on: February 24, 2018, 03:21:08 AM »

Tesla deployed over 300 Powerwalls in Hawaiian schools to cool down hot classrooms


https://electrek.co/2018/02/23/tesla-powerwall-hawaii-school/

Quote
As part of a state initiative, Tesla deployed over 300 Powerwalls in schools to cool down hot classrooms in Hawaii.


Could they have found a use for any of these powerwalls in Puerto Rico?

Is everyone's pump now pumping in that hard hit region?
Terry

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Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
« Reply #624 on: February 24, 2018, 03:54:47 AM »
Right now, I think the demand for Tesla batteries in PR is very high, relative to PR. I know of at least 4 home installations of Tesla batteries. However the market seems dominated by smaller batteries from other manufacturers like Sonnen and "gel" batteries. I might have seen hundreds of smaller installations in social media.

Batteries are taking off in PR but the move is toward smaller setups that won't power the whole house, but will power the fridge, a fan and a few lights.

Maybe as things get sorted we can take advantage of today's energy solution. There is just so much potential energy year around down at 18N, such a shame to not use it now that technology exists.

I am an energy reservoir seemingly intent on lowering entropy for self preservation.

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Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
« Reply #625 on: February 24, 2018, 04:16:01 AM »
Right now, I think the demand for Tesla batteries in PR is very high, relative to PR. I know of at least 4 home installations of Tesla batteries. However the market seems dominated by smaller batteries from other manufacturers like Sonnen and "gel" batteries. I might have seen hundreds of smaller installations in social media.

Batteries are taking off in PR but the move is toward smaller setups that won't power the whole house, but will power the fridge, a fan and a few lights.

Maybe as things get sorted we can take advantage of today's energy solution. There is just so much potential energy year around down at 18N, such a shame to not use it now that technology exists.
Is that a reference to lead acid gel batteries?
erry

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Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
« Reply #626 on: February 24, 2018, 12:50:12 PM »
Quote
Is that a reference to lead acid gel batteries?

I think so.  Around here they are refered to as just "gel" batteries. They are much cheaper up front and are available everywhere. Over time they are more expensive because they do not last as long, but they are a good first step.
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Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
« Reply #627 on: February 24, 2018, 01:43:06 PM »
From http://energystorage.org/energy-storage/facts-figures

Quote
According to market research firm IHS, the global energy storage market is growing exponentially to an annual installation size of 6 gigawatts (GW) in 2017 and over 40 GW by 2022 — from an initial base of only 0.34 GW installed in 2012 and 2013.

Still looking and not finding a nice simple data base of history and projections.
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Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
« Reply #628 on: February 24, 2018, 03:05:10 PM »
Part of the difficulty is defining “energy storage” — if your laptop battery, car battery, phone battery, etc count then we’ve got GWhs of annual production, and we have for years. Very little of it has been deployed for storing grid power and returning it to the grid, but laptops and phones time-shift power demand (not in a particularly optimal way for the grid, generally).

And then you have EVs versus grid storage. With car batteries available for a second life as grid storage, and V2G, how do you account it exactly?

The easier stat to get is the overall production. It’s booming.

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Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
« Reply #629 on: February 24, 2018, 04:21:43 PM »

Tesla deployed over 300 Powerwalls in Hawaiian schools to cool down hot classrooms


https://electrek.co/2018/02/23/tesla-powerwall-hawaii-school/

Quote
As part of a state initiative, Tesla deployed over 300 Powerwalls in schools to cool down hot classrooms in Hawaii.

Perhaps this is a counter-point to the concern that increasing use of air conditioners in our warming world will add to grid energy needs.  If new air conditioning units came with solar or wind, plus batteries... it could actually be net energy positive.
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numerobis

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Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
« Reply #630 on: February 25, 2018, 03:05:07 AM »
If you sold the new AC with panels and batteries, then left out the AC, it would be even cheaper and displace more fossil fuels.

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Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
« Reply #631 on: February 25, 2018, 03:57:52 AM »
Perhaps this is a counter-point to the concern that increasing use of air conditioners in our warming world will add to grid energy needs.  If new air conditioning units came with solar or wind, plus batteries... it could actually be net energy positive.

I think air conditioners in lower latitudes are low hanging fruit.  At least in my neck of the woods clear days are typically very hot days. That's when AC's work hardest, but also when the sun shines the most. Overcast days are cooler, so on the days when you get the least sun, you don't need as much power.

 In the tropics, where the AC runs year round and there is no winter the fruit hangs lower than in the north.

If you sold the new AC with panels and batteries, then left out the AC, it would be even cheaper and displace more fossil fuels.

Numerobis, by your posts I understand you live close to or in the Arctic, so I think I  can understand how you feel about AC's. To be honest, I'm not thrilled about them either. They consume a lot of energy and their principal use is mostly comfort.  In the north heat is a life and death matter. In the south AC is a luxury.

However I would argue that  AC's are more than just vain comfort. AC's improve people's health, social environments and even educational outcomes. Believe me, even learning is more difficult when your body is trying to actively cool itself. The hotter it is the more benefit they bring.

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numerobis

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Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
« Reply #632 on: February 25, 2018, 04:26:20 AM »
I’m saying it’s not a counterpoint. Global warming means increased AC (increasing global wealth does as well). If you install solar panels to power your new AC, the net energy is less than if you could have installed solar panels but no AC.

Granted, peak AC is not too far off peak solar power, so it’s cheaper to match them up than solar and cooking or solar and heating.

I’ve lived in several places where there were a few days a year that were almost intolerable without AC. As the globe warms, AC will become an absolute requirement there.

It’ll be a long while before AC is ever needed in Iqaluit (outside industrial settings). But there are days above 30 humidex in other parts of the Arctic.

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Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
« Reply #633 on: February 25, 2018, 11:55:45 AM »
We regularly get temperatures of over 40C in summer. Without AC, indoor temperatures reach 35C in the afternoon, and it's pretty impossible to work or concentrate in those temperatures. It's also very difficult to sleep, although at night you might be able to get the temperature down to 25 by morning. The first part of the night the temperature could easily be over 30. These kinds of conditions are only going to become more common - more places will experience them, and places that already experience them will have them for longer.

One problem is that countries that are more likely to experience hot temperatures than very cold ones haven't historically seen much need for insulation, although insulation is just as important for keeping the heat out as keeping it in. Efficient (reversible) heat pumps + insulation means relatively modest power requirements for AC.

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Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
« Reply #634 on: February 25, 2018, 03:26:22 PM »
Maybe I just don’t understand the term “counterpoint.”

The amount of fossil fuels we burn seems greater if we also are forced to install AC than if we aren’t. Installing AC is completely orthogonal to installing solar power; there’s no synergy.

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Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
« Reply #635 on: February 25, 2018, 05:07:25 PM »
Maybe I just don’t understand the term “counterpoint.”

The amount of fossil fuels we burn seems greater if we also are forced to install AC than if we aren’t. Installing AC is completely orthogonal to installing solar power; there’s no synergy.

Consider the heat pump from Lennox that comes with solar panels.  This generates heating and cooling while using less grid energy than a comparable non-solar unit.

https://www.lennox.com/products/heating-cooling/solar-ready
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Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
« Reply #636 on: February 25, 2018, 05:47:15 PM »
"Think you know everything there is to know about the refrigeration sector and its impact on climate change?"
"Put your knowledge to the test on this matter that is at the heart of international concerns, with the IIR 10-question quiz."

http://www.iifiir.org/clientbookline/service/reference.asp?output=PORTAL&INSTANCE=EXPLOITATION&DOCBASE=IFD_REFDOC_EN&DOCID=IFD_REFDOC_0022583&PORTAL_ID=erm_portal_news.xml



http://www.iifiir.org/clientBookline/service/reference.asp?INSTANCE=EXPLOITATION&OUTPUT=PORTAL&DOCID=IFD_REFDOC_0022577&DOCBASE=IFD_REFDOC_EN&SETLANGUAGE=EN

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As ascertained by the Note, the refrigeration sector is responsible for 7.8% of global greenhouse gas emissions, almost two thirds of which are generated by the electricity used by refrigeration systems. This presents two challenges: reducing refrigerant emissions, notably with the application of the Kigali Amendment to the Montreal Protocol, which enters into force on January 1, 2019, and making equipment more energy efficient while developing the use of renewable energy.


https://www.ejarn.com/news.aspx?ID=49166
Quote
The year 2017 was a year of great achievement thanks to double-digit growth in China, the largest air conditioner market in the world. The global air conditioner market saw 9.3% year-on-year growth, increasing to 129 million units.
 
Most parts of China experienced a hot summer in 2017. The room air conditioner (RAC) market grew by 30.2% year-on-year, reaching 61 million units.
 
In the United States, sales of ductless air conditioners such as mini-splits and variable refrigerant flow (VRF) systems are gradually increasing. Mini-splits recorded 15.0% growth in sales in 2017. In total, the U.S. air conditioner market in 2017 showed 4.8% growth, increasing to 16.4 million units.


https://www.grandviewresearch.com/industry-analysis/refrigerant-market#utm_source=pressrelease&utm_medium=referral&utm_campaign=Abnewswire_Feb23&utm_content=content
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Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
« Reply #637 on: February 25, 2018, 08:12:38 PM »
Interior climate control is a necesity of modern humans. In the north it's a life and death matter. In the south it's a matter of quality of life.

 In a way it's like the transportation debate. CO2, the waste product of the energy source of most transportation devices will cause the destruction of many thing we love and worse. The solution is to switch transportation to an energy source that doesn't destroy us. To stop all transportation is unacceptable because that could harm more people than climate change. That is not a solution.

Batteries are looking like a very plausible solution for the transportation problem. The switch is happening as we speak but it takes a long time to replace old ICEVs for EVs.

Climate control is the same way. The energy source that powers most climate control units produces masive amounts of CO2. We need to switch the energy source of climate control technology to energy sources. Progress must continue, every school and home in the world should have appropiate climate control,  but it must be done in a way that doesn't destroy us.

In my experience climate control have made significant progress over the years. My "inverter" unit  keeps my bedroom at a comfortable 23C, at lower energy cost than a large fan. Years ago I had a window AC unit. That thing was a power hog and loud monster. The cooling pattern wasn't  even comfortable, but it was better than the heat.

The AC unit that SigmetNow posted is a beutiful thing. It seems like an evolution  of the old mini split unit.  It also confirms a small trend that might be emerging  for devices operating under their own battery/sun power.  Over here solar/batteries lights  are a big deal right now. Solar/batteries refrigerators seem to be in high demand too.
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Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
« Reply #638 on: February 25, 2018, 08:55:50 PM »
In a way it's like the transportation debate. CO2, the waste product of the energy source of most transportation devices will cause the destruction of many thing we love and worse. The solution is to switch transportation to an energy source that doesn't destroy us.

Romantic illusions, we don't have enough time left (second image below). Also, little Sweden should be home free then with well over one million heat pumps? No.

Attaching a simple image made by Nicklas Börjesson, it's the Swedish "climate budget" where he has placed the different challenges from the easiest (top left) down to the hardest (bottom right). The important part is not how accurately he has placed them individually, but more to show the scale of the different challenges for Sweden. Those differ from nation to nation of course.

EV's
Industry
Population growth
Agriculture
Construction
Road transports
Shorter flights
Luxury consumption
Meat
Longer flights

Sweden have 40% Nuclear, 40% Hydro and 10% Wind. The tough part starts around Agriculture. Sweden can only produce food for half of it's population today, the other half is imported...
Note that the graph only drops to just below 2 tonnes CO2eq towards 2050.

If you wish to see Kevin Andersson take on this fine nation go here:
https://forum.arctic-sea-ice.net/index.php/topic,1021.msg137267.html#msg137267

The US is certainly different from Sweden.
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Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
« Reply #639 on: February 25, 2018, 10:23:13 PM »
Quote
Romantic illusions, we don't have enough time left (second image below).

 I do understand this is a fools hope, but the more batteries/renewables set ups out there, the more resilient we are. Also as the technology and markets advance, renewables/batteries become cheaper, making them more accesible.
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Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
« Reply #640 on: February 26, 2018, 11:34:42 AM »
Anyone know why Bob Wallace stopped posting suddenly? I'm missing his optimism.

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Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
« Reply #641 on: February 26, 2018, 11:42:07 AM »
I was wondering about that yesterday as well.
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Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
« Reply #642 on: February 26, 2018, 02:52:09 PM »
From Bob Wallace's "Profile":
Quote
Last Active: February 04, 2018, 12:17:40 AM
Arctic ice is healthy for children and other living things because "we cannot negotiate with the melting point of ice"

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Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
« Reply #643 on: February 26, 2018, 04:45:07 PM »

Sion Power® Announces Launch of Its Groundbreaking Licerion® Rechargeable Lithium Battery


https://www.businesswire.com/news/home/20180131005343/en/Sion-Power®-Announces-Launch-Groundbreaking-Licerion®-Rechargeable

Quote
Sion Power, a leading developer of lithium battery technology, announced today production will begin on their patented Licerion rechargeable lithium metal battery in late 2018 from its Tucson facility. The Licerion rechargeable lithium metal technology will offer the unmanned aerial vehicle (UAV) and electric vehicle (EV) markets an unparalleled 500 Wh/kg, 1,000 Wh/L, and 450 cycles when released
.
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Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
« Reply #644 on: February 26, 2018, 04:49:11 PM »
That announcement sounds too good to be true, but this is a Buffet backed venture, so I'm very intrigued. If true, these are excellent news.
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Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
« Reply #645 on: February 26, 2018, 05:03:03 PM »
For comparison:

http://www.epectec.com/batteries/cell-comparison.html

The Licerion battery’s energy density looks awesome, but the number of cycles, not so much.  If the battery holds up under adverse conditions (a big if), it might find success in aviation, where regular maintenance is required and extra expense is expected. 
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Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
« Reply #646 on: February 26, 2018, 05:45:57 PM »
SigmetNow check out their product page (with a healthy dose of skepticism). At the end of the page they have a graph like the one you posted with their batteries superimposed. Apparently their battery does fall within the realm of EV's.

http://www.sionpower.com/technology-licerion.php

It is also interesting to note the Cycles Life Results. 400 cycles is at 300 Wh/kg density, 150 cycles at 400 Wh/kg. 
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Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
« Reply #647 on: February 26, 2018, 06:53:25 PM »
The article doesn't mention batteries too much, but batteries made it possible. Neven this is the organization you gave a donation, Casa Pueblo.

(Link in spanish, translation by google)


Casa Pueblo promotes an emergency energy system


original

https://www.elnuevodia.com/noticias/locales/nota/casapuebloimpulsaunsistemadeemergenciaenergetica-2401907/

Google Translation

https://translate.googleusercontent.com/translate_c?depth=1&nv=1&rurl=translate.google.com&sl=auto&sp=nmt4&tl=en&u=https://www.elnuevodia.com/noticias/locales/nota/casapuebloimpulsaunsistemadeemergenciaenergetica-2401907/%3Futm_term%3DAutofeed%26utm_campaign%3DEchobox%26utm_medium%3DSocial%26utm_source%3DFacebook&xid=17259,15700023,15700105,15700122,15700124,15700149,15700168,15700173,15700201&usg=ALkJrhgkiulQNrKfEoTrTGdhVONkyQRRQw


Quote
Thousands of people have benefited from various initiatives developed by the community organization Casa Pueblo in the absence of electric power after the impact of Hurricane Maria.
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Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
« Reply #648 on: February 26, 2018, 07:10:13 PM »
SigmetNow check out their product page (with a healthy dose of skepticism). At the end of the page they have a graph like the one you posted with their batteries superimposed. Apparently their battery does fall within the realm of EV's.

http://www.sionpower.com/technology-licerion.php

It is also interesting to note the Cycles Life Results. 400 cycles is at 300 Wh/kg density, 150 cycles at 400 Wh/kg.

OK, here is their graph.

I see from their website that their battery powered a high-altitude drone... but only for two weeks.

Fast-charging to 80% State Of Charge in 30 minutes is about par for Tesla supercharging today, but Tesla batteries (batteries I can get data on quickly 8) ) are thought to be able to handle at least 1,000 charges.

And that performance is expected to improve with new battery tech coming on line:
Quote
If made into a car battery pack, 1,200 cycles would translate to roughly 300,000 miles (480,000 km) – meaning that a battery pack could still retain about 95% of its original energy capacity after ~300,000 miles – or 25 years at the average 12,000 miles per year.
https://electrek.co/2017/05/04/tesla-battery-researcher-chemistry-lifcycle/

So, Sion may likely find a successful niche in the battery business (I’m still thinking aviation), but Tesla doesn’t have to start sweating yet.  ;) ;D
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Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
« Reply #649 on: February 26, 2018, 08:33:33 PM »
I see your point now.  It seems they are very light and compact batteries that must be replaced relatively often. That makes them inherently expensive unless they are cheaper to produce, recycle and replace than more durable chemistry.

I guess the big thing here is that the high  energy density allows for applications that less dense batteries simply can't do, like flight as conceived today, or perhaps high performance vehicles.

 I wonder if tesla has something like this in mind for the Semi. Not as big a deal as I initially thought, but still, I'm happy to see the technogy advance.


Quote
Tesla doesn’t have to start sweating yet

I think Tesla would benefit from a breakthrough battery, even if they aren't  the ones developing it.
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