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Sigmetnow

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Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
« Reply #650 on: February 26, 2018, 09:12:29 PM »

Quote
Tesla doesn’t have to start sweating yet

I think Tesla would benefit from a breakthrough battery, even if they aren't  the ones developing it.


Tesla is constantly researching new battery tech, and keeping an eye on what others are developing. 

Elon has said:  We’re a global leader in battery product sales.  If you have a new battery, show it to us!  Or have it tested by a third party and show us the results.  Just don’t make wild claims via a Powerpoint presentation.  ;)

Tesla’s battery gigafactory was designed to enable changes in battery production, so they aren’t stuck with what they are using today.
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Neven

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Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
« Reply #651 on: February 26, 2018, 11:34:42 PM »
The article doesn't mention batteries too much, but batteries made it possible. Neven this is the organization you gave a donation, Casa Pueblo.

Great, I'll donate some more later in the year.
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Sigmetnow

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Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
« Reply #653 on: March 01, 2018, 02:59:04 PM »
Tesla Powerpacks could start saving water ratepayers money in Southern California
Quote
Tesla’s energy storage products, Powerwalls and Powerpacks, are starting to be used in such a variety of different applications that you might start seeing some impact without even knowing about it.

For example, you might if you are a water ratepayer in Southern California.

Back in 2016, Tesla Energy was contracted to supply Powerpacks through Advanced Microgrid Solutions (AMS) for a major new project: a 7 MW / 34 MWh network of battery systems to support water treatment facilities of Irvine Ranch Water District (IRWD).

Energy is often the most important cost related to treating and moving water. When they submitted the project, IRWD said that they expect to see cost savings of more than $500,000 per year on its energy bill with the new project, which could benefit its ratepayers.

“We started working on this back in 2015 – what’s out there and who has the expertise and what are the missing pieces. Batteries are batteries. But the missing piece that we could tell was the software that goes along with the batteries. It’s the software that can actually learn how your system is working. Our first priority is always to make sure we can pump water, treat sewage and do all these things we have to do. And I don’t want to put another layer of responsibility on the operators I have, who already have enough on their plates.

So that whole problem was solved by a private company called Advanced Microgrid Solutions.”


Advanced Microgrid Solutions (AMS) acts as an energy storage management firm between electric utilities, energy markets and the regulatory world. ...
https://electrek.co/2018/02/28/tesla-powerpacks-save-water-ratepayers-money/
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Sigmetnow

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Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
« Reply #654 on: March 01, 2018, 03:02:28 PM »
”Well, that’s disappointing.”

Bosch decides against massive battery cell production plan for electric cars, even sells solid-state battery start-up
https://electrek.co/2018/02/28/bosch-gives-up-battery-cell-production-electric-car/
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Archimid

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Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
« Reply #655 on: March 01, 2018, 08:38:48 PM »
Although it is a little dissapointing that Bosch abandoned the battery market, it is very encouraging to know they will focus their efforts on EV components. 

Quote
“We want to be the go-to partner for electric driving. We are already a leader in the powertrain field – and we will be in the future as well,”

Having an organization like Bosch manufacturing EV parts  is just as important as mass production of batteries.
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TerryM

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Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
« Reply #656 on: March 01, 2018, 09:43:32 PM »
Tesla Powerpacks could start saving water ratepayers money in Southern California
Quote
Tesla’s energy storage products, Powerwalls and Powerpacks, are starting to be used in such a variety of different applications that you might start seeing some impact without even knowing about it.

For example, you might if you are a water ratepayer in Southern California.

Back in 2016, Tesla Energy was contracted to supply Powerpacks through Advanced Microgrid Solutions (AMS) for a major new project: a 7 MW / 34 MWh network of battery systems to support water treatment facilities of Irvine Ranch Water District (IRWD).

Energy is often the most important cost related to treating and moving water. When they submitted the project, IRWD said that they expect to see cost savings of more than $500,000 per year on its energy bill with the new project, which could benefit its ratepayers.

“We started working on this back in 2015 – what’s out there and who has the expertise and what are the missing pieces. Batteries are batteries. But the missing piece that we could tell was the software that goes along with the batteries. It’s the software that can actually learn how your system is working. Our first priority is always to make sure we can pump water, treat sewage and do all these things we have to do. And I don’t want to put another layer of responsibility on the operators I have, who already have enough on their plates.

So that whole problem was solved by a private company called Advanced Microgrid Solutions.”


Advanced Microgrid Solutions (AMS) acts as an energy storage management firm between electric utilities, energy markets and the regulatory world. ...
https://electrek.co/2018/02/28/tesla-powerpacks-save-water-ratepayers-money/
I'm opposed to privatization.
Adding a layer of profit demanding oligarchs won't ease the situation for anyone but their stockholders.
Terry

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Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
« Reply #657 on: March 09, 2018, 08:58:32 PM »
Lots of new battery ideas at various stages of development. Maybe one will make the lithium-ion battery yesterday's news (or maybe not?) ?

https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2018/mar/09/look-no-lithium-first-rechargeable-proton-battery-created
Quote
Look, no lithium! First rechargeable proton battery created

Researchers say it’s a crucial step towards cheaper and more environmentally-friendly energy storage


Scientists have created the world’s first rechargeable proton battery, a crucial step towards cheaper and more environmentally-friendly energy storage.

While the battery is just a small-scale prototype, it has the potential to be competitive with currently available lithium-ion batteries.

The rechargeable battery, created by researchers at RMIT university in Melbourne, uses carbon and water instead of lithium.

The lead researcher Professor John Andrews said that as the world moved towards renewables, there would be a significant need for storage technologies that relied on cheap and abundant materials.........


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Sigmetnow

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Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
« Reply #658 on: March 09, 2018, 08:59:32 PM »
“I'm opposed to privatization.”

Not so much privatization, rather: “subcontracting.” :)
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Sigmetnow

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Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
« Reply #659 on: March 09, 2018, 09:02:37 PM »
“‘We’re reaching an inflection point.  In the future, people will talk about energy in terms of kilowatts per hour instead of oil per barrels.”

The Battery Will Kill Fossil Fuels—It's Only a Matter of Time
- Regulators are opening doors for energy storage to compete
- Oil companies are already forecasting impact of electric cars
Quote
Three weeks ago, a U.S. agency sent the clearest signal yet that fossil fuels’ days are numbered.

True enough, the carbon-burning economy has been declared to be on its death bed umpteenth times before. But this came with a time frame related to the ultimate killer: the battery. The Federal Energy Regulatory Commission ruled that so-called energy-storage companies such as Tesla Inc. and AES Corp. can compete against traditional power plants in U.S. wholesale markets by the end of 2020. ...
https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2018-03-08/the-battery-will-kill-fossil-fuels-it-s-only-a-matter-of-time
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Sigmetnow

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Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
« Reply #660 on: March 09, 2018, 09:40:36 PM »
...
Look, no lithium! First rechargeable proton battery created

Researchers say it’s a crucial step towards cheaper and more environmentally-friendly energy storage


Scientists have created the world’s first rechargeable proton battery, a crucial step towards cheaper and more environmentally-friendly energy storage.
...

Thanks for the link.  I wanted to know more about proton batteries, and found the article below.  These batteries seem to be like solid-state hydrogen fuel cells.... 8)

They need access to air/oxygen, though, so... maybe less safe in enclosed spaces (i.e., a garage) than lithium batteries???

All power to the proton: Researchers make battery breakthrough
Quote
How the proton battery works

The working prototype proton battery combines the best aspects of hydrogen fuel cells and battery-based electrical power.  The latest version combines a carbon electrode for solid-state storage of hydrogen with a reversible fuel cell to provide an integrated rechargeable unit.
...
During charging, protons produced by water splitting in a reversible fuel cell are conducted through the cell membrane and directly bond with the storage material with the aid of electrons supplied by the applied voltage, without forming hydrogen gas.

In electricity supply mode this process is reversed; hydrogen atoms are released from the storage and lose an electron to become protons once again. These protons then pass back through the cell membrane where they combine with oxygen and electrons from the external circuit to re-form water. ...
https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2018/03/180307153947.htm
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sidd

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Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
« Reply #661 on: March 09, 2018, 10:38:38 PM »
I attach fig 1 and some excerpts from the Heidari carbon wayer battery paper.

"The storage electrode employed is an activated carbon fabricated from phenolic resin with a high BET surface area. An additional design innovation is to soak the electrode in a liquid-acid proton conductor to act as an ionic bridge between the nafion membrane of the reversible PEM cell and the ultramicropores in the activated carbon particles."

"The oxygen side of the reversible cell is similar to a PEM URFC with titanium felt as the gas diffusion layer (GDL) and a mixed platinum/iridium oxide catalyst. Nafion 117 membrane is used as the proton conductive medium and the carbon-based electrode is directly in contact with the membrane on the other side to the Pt/IrRuO2 catalyst layer"

sidd

numerobis

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Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
« Reply #662 on: March 10, 2018, 02:42:37 AM »
That’s pretty neat. No mention of round-trip efficiency; hopefully it’s also good?

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Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
« Reply #663 on: March 10, 2018, 05:27:23 AM »
Round trip efficiency was indirectly addressed :

" ... was able to store in electrolysis (charge) mode very nearly 1 wt% hydrogen, and release on
discharge 0.8 wt% in fuel cell (electricity supply) mode ..."

They got a way to go. I understand a great many problems arise from degradation of the PEM separator, in this case a membrane called Nafion 117. Made by Chemours, a company that has poisoned many.

sidd

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Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
« Reply #664 on: March 10, 2018, 08:09:59 AM »

I'm opposed to privatization.

Adding a layer of profit demanding oligarchs won't ease the situation for anyone but their stockholders.
Terry
So am I, Terry.

Is the average American able to understand that scentence?
Here in Sweden we have privatized a lot the last decades.
http://ekonomihandboken.se/den-nyliberala-politiken/vem-tjanade-pa-privatiseringarna/
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The new private owners have earned several hundred billion on the purchase of state-owned companies. Common wealth has been moved to a small capital-strong group.

The loosers? All who depend on caring, equality and humane decisions.
All of us will be loosers in the end, even the rich.
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TerryM

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Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
« Reply #665 on: March 10, 2018, 09:47:02 AM »
I associate privatization with neocon politics.


I'm closing in on 72 years if age & lived for decades in two very different countries, both who have been privatizing during my lifetime. I can't think of one example where privatizing worked well for any but the new owners.


Sorry to learn that Sweden has been caught up in the frenzy. No good can come from it.
Terry

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Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
« Reply #666 on: March 10, 2018, 10:13:24 AM »
Agree, the really sad part is that our frenzy was started by some members in our Social Democratic party back in the 80's. Olof Palme was one of those who was heavily critizised back then.
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Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
« Reply #667 on: March 10, 2018, 03:04:22 PM »
Tesla Powerpacks could start saving water ratepayers money in Southern California
Quote
Tesla’s energy storage products, Powerwalls and Powerpacks, are starting to be used in such a variety of different applications that you might start seeing some impact without even knowing about it.

For example, you might if you are a water ratepayer in Southern California.

Back in 2016, Tesla Energy was contracted to supply Powerpacks through Advanced Microgrid Solutions (AMS) for a major new project: a 7 MW / 34 MWh network of battery systems to support water treatment facilities of Irvine Ranch Water District (IRWD).

Energy is often the most important cost related to treating and moving water. When they submitted the project, IRWD said that they expect to see cost savings of more than $500,000 per year on its energy bill with the new project, which could benefit its ratepayers.

“We started working on this back in 2015 – what’s out there and who has the expertise and what are the missing pieces. Batteries are batteries. But the missing piece that we could tell was the software that goes along with the batteries. It’s the software that can actually learn how your system is working. Our first priority is always to make sure we can pump water, treat sewage and do all these things we have to do. And I don’t want to put another layer of responsibility on the operators I have, who already have enough on their plates.

So that whole problem was solved by a private company called Advanced Microgrid Solutions.”


Advanced Microgrid Solutions (AMS) acts as an energy storage management firm between electric utilities, energy markets and the regulatory world. ...
https://electrek.co/2018/02/28/tesla-powerpacks-save-water-ratepayers-money/
I'm opposed to privatization.
Adding a layer of profit demanding oligarchs won't ease the situation for anyone but their stockholders.
Terry

No privatization, and no oligarchs here!

The water treatment facility is not being privatized.  They are simply contracting with a smart energy company to help take care of their energy needs, employing AMS’s specialized knowledge and equipment to save them money.  The same way any business might make a subcontract with, say, a photocopier supplier to supply needed photocopy equipment and provide maintenance, freeing the main company from the need and expense of training their own people to do that.

People who say it cannot be done should not interrupt those who are doing it.

numerobis

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Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
« Reply #668 on: March 11, 2018, 06:44:17 AM »
I associate privatization with neocon politics.

Mayor Daley (junior) in Chicago privatized heavily despite being far from a neocon. Seems to have been because it was good for his bank account, or that of his friends and family.

One particular ideological persuasion has a formal reason to privatize and helped build reasonable-sounding arguments for it; its spread is due to even purer greed than the original idea.

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Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
« Reply #669 on: March 11, 2018, 12:49:30 PM »
No privatization, and no oligarchs here!

The water treatment facility is not being privatized.  They are simply contracting with a smart energy company to help take care of their energy needs, employing AMS’s specialized knowledge and equipment to save them money.  The same way any business might make a subcontract with, say, a photocopier supplier to supply needed photocopy equipment and provide maintenance, freeing the main company from the need and expense of training their own people to do that.

Just Americans doing it the American way. Reminds me of how we got started, hence my question to Terry above.

One important step was taken when our Social Democratic government back in 1991 changed the municipal law, which gave our municipalities the opportunity to outsource various activities. That paved the way for the right wing government later in 1991, we have never changed direction since. McDonald's charity child care opened their first house here in 1993.

The road to hell is paved with good intentions.
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TerryM

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Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
« Reply #670 on: March 11, 2018, 09:04:15 PM »
Privatization can pop up wherever greed raises it's head, but the ideology is from the far right.


Government is bad, capitalism is good, what could be better than destroying a government institution and replacing it with a privately held one. - or so their story goes.
The left, on the other hand, strives to expand the commons. Better a Peoples Park than an Industrial Park.


When your municipal arena turns ticket sales over to Ticketron, you're well on the way to having an oligarchy profiting whenever Johnny laces up his skates. - or is that example too "Canadian"
Terry

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Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
« Reply #671 on: March 21, 2018, 01:27:58 PM »
‘NO MORE BROWNOUTS!’: Philippines town hails arrival of Tesla battery

https://www.energy-storage.news/news/no-more-brownouts-philippines-town-hails-arrival-of-tesla-battery

Quote
The launch of 'Solar Para Sa Bayan', an initiative by Solar Philippines founder Leandro Leviste to bring cheaper, more reliable power to areas poorly served by utilities, was marked by the execution of a project utilising 2MW of PV panels manufactured by his company, 2MWh of Tesla's Powerpack lithium-ion industrial and grid-scale battery storage and 2MW of diesel backup.
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Sigmetnow

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Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
« Reply #672 on: March 22, 2018, 06:29:13 PM »
Australia:

Tesla says its giant battery is not getting paid correctly because it sends power too quickly
Quote
But now Tesla complained to the Australian Energy Market Operator (AEMO) that they are not being paid correctly (via The Sydney Morning Herald):

“Tesla estimates that the Hornsdale Power Reserve battery has delivered 30 to 40 per cent of its services to frequency markets without being paid due to existing AEMO technical specifications being written based on fossil fuel generation assets. Current standards compensate batteries for their capacity based on fossil generator response rates, despite the ability to provide a faster ramp time. This makes it difficult for the full value of fast-responding technologies to be recognised in the current contingency FCAS markets.”
...
https://electrek.co/2018/03/22/tesla-powerpack-battery-too-quick-to-get-paid/
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Sigmetnow

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Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
« Reply #673 on: March 22, 2018, 06:31:46 PM »
This time in Victoria.

Tesla to deploy another large Powerpack project in Australia after securing $25 million in funding
https://electrek.co/2018/03/22/tesla-large-powerpack-australia/
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gerontocrat

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Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
« Reply #674 on: March 22, 2018, 06:52:58 PM »
Australia:

Tesla says its giant battery is not getting paid correctly because it sends power too quickly
Quote
But now Tesla complained to the Australian Energy Market Operator (AEMO) that they are not being paid correctly (via The Sydney Morning Herald):

“Tesla estimates that the Hornsdale Power Reserve battery has delivered 30 to 40 per cent of its services to frequency markets without being paid due to existing AEMO technical specifications being written based on fossil fuel generation assets. Current standards compensate batteries for their capacity based on fossil generator response rates, despite the ability to provide a faster ramp time. This makes it difficult for the full value of fast-responding technologies to be recognised in the current contingency FCAS markets.”
...
https://electrek.co/2018/03/22/tesla-powerpack-battery-too-quick-to-get-paid/

Logically the supplier would be paid a premium for the time when response is earlier than the maximum allowed response time, and fined for when response was later than the maximum  allowed response time.

But that is far too difficult for regulators looking backwards, not forwards.
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Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
« Reply #676 on: March 22, 2018, 08:07:15 PM »
Storage chokes off gas peakers:

"As much as 32% of new gas peaker capacity will be at risk from four-hour energy storage by 2027, according to a new GTM Research report"

https://www.utilitydive.com/news/nearly-13-of-planned-gas-peakers-at-risk-from-energy-storage-gtm-finds/519577/

sidd

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Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
« Reply #677 on: March 22, 2018, 08:26:48 PM »
Storage chokes off gas peakers:

"As much as 32% of new gas peaker capacity will be at risk from four-hour energy storage by 2027, according to a new GTM Research report"

https://www.utilitydive.com/news/nearly-13-of-planned-gas-peakers-at-risk-from-energy-storage-gtm-finds/519577/

sidd

From the article:
Quote
But, Hittinger cautioned, those who favor the concept often assume that replacing a peaker with storage would decrease electricity system emissions. The academic work on the topic has shown that peak-shaving storage increases system emissions on average and only breaks even in the best areas[,] because storage is usually charged from fossil generation.

Surprising.   But the solution is obvious, and becoming cheaper every year!
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Sigmetnow

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Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
« Reply #678 on: March 22, 2018, 09:34:54 PM »
Repeating this article from 2017 because it answers many of the questions that still come up in this thread from time to time. ;)
Article includes a video of a dissection of an old-style 18650 cell, still being used in Tesla Model S and X.

Tesla battery cell breakdown shows what is inside and difference with Panasonic’s regular cells
https://electrek.co/2017/03/22/tesla-battery-cell-breakdown/
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Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
« Reply #679 on: March 26, 2018, 06:57:11 PM »
NISSAN INTRODUCES $2,850 REFABRICATED BATTERIES FOR OLDER LEAF

https://insideevs.com/nissan-introduces-refabricated-batteries-for-older-leaf-in-japan-from-new-4r-plant/

Quote
Nissan is finally launching the exchange program for Nissan LEAF batteries in Japan that enables LEAF owners to trade in old batteries for refabricated ones.

The 24 kWh refabricated batteries for the oldest LEAFs will be offered for 300,000 yen apiece (around $2,850).

That’s less than half the price of a brand new 24 kWh pack (650,000 yen or ≈$6,200). Nissan will try to make use of the old modules for energy storage systems.


Yet another advantage for batteries. Yes they have a high initial cost but through reuse of most of the battery weight in the recycling process that price drops considerable for recycled batteries. Basically, mine the raw resources once and then use multiple times at a fraction of the cost.
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Sigmetnow

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Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
« Reply #680 on: March 30, 2018, 10:20:24 PM »
Gigafactory 1 (Nevada) update:  new parking and construction staging area being prepared, likely in anticipation of additional building expansion.

Tesla starts moving ground at Gigafactory 1 again
https://electrek.co/2018/03/30/tesla-moving-ground-gigafactory-1/
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Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
« Reply #681 on: April 05, 2018, 05:16:00 AM »
I’m hoping they can ramp up their powerwalls soon and work through their backlog. I’m seeing the competition offering batteries at a cool CAD 1,000/kWh without the electronics versus CAD $600/kWh with electronics included. (I’m pricing out systems right now; looks like storage won’t happen.)

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Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
« Reply #682 on: April 07, 2018, 06:06:47 PM »
After urgent projects in Australia and Puerto Rico, Tesla is adressing its backlog of battery orders.  Green Mountain Power in Vermont says it has received all 2,000 of its request.

Tesla delivered massive batch of 2,000 Powerwalls to Vermont electric utility, only ~10% installed
Quote
Now Carlson says that after the last quarter, they have deployed 220 Powerwalls out of the 2,000.

The company expects to install the remaining ~90% of their Powerwalls by the end of the year.

As of a few months ago, GMP reportedly already had a backlog of 1,200 homeowners interested in the device.

Under their agreement with the electric utility, homeowners who receive a Powerwall are able to use it for backup power for “$15 a month or a $1,500 one-time fee”, which is significantly less expensive the ~$7,000 cost of the device with installation, but in return, Green Mountain Power is able to access the energy in the pack to support its grid, like a virtual power plant. ...
https://electrek.co/2018/04/06/tesla-powerwall-delivered-massive-batch/


Edit:  and here’s another “virtual power plant” project planned in New Hampshire, U.S.:

Tesla Powerwall is chosen for a virtual power plant in Lebanon, but Sunrun wants in
https://electrek.co/2018/04/07/tesla-powerwall-virtual-power-plant-lebanon-surun/
« Last Edit: April 07, 2018, 07:22:22 PM by Sigmetnow »
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Sigmetnow

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Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
« Reply #683 on: April 09, 2018, 07:19:00 PM »
The Australian Energy Market Operator praised the performance of the system in a new report this month.

”While it has certainly become quite famous, the energy companies are not adding storage capacity because it’s fashionable.”

Tesla’s giant battery system gets praised by energy market operator: ‘rapid, accurate, and valuable’
https://electrek.co/2018/04/09/tesla-giant-battery-system-praised-energy-market-operator/
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Sigmetnow

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Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
« Reply #684 on: April 15, 2018, 01:21:09 AM »
Tesla battery degradation at less than 10% after over 160,000 miles, according to latest data
Quote
The data clearly shows that for the first 50,000 miles (100,000 km), most Tesla battery packs will lose about 5% of their capacity, but after the 50,000-mile mark, the capacity levels off and it looks like it could be difficult to make a pack degrade by another 5%.

The trend line currently suggests that the average battery pack could cycle through over 300,000 km (186,000) before coming close to 90% capacity. ...
https://electrek.co/2018/04/14/tesla-battery-degradation-data/

Cross-posted in Batteries thread.
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Bob Wallace

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Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
« Reply #685 on: April 15, 2018, 02:01:40 AM »
Tesla battery degradation at less than 10% after over 160,000 miles, according to latest data
Quote
The data clearly shows that for the first 50,000 miles (100,000 km), most Tesla battery packs will lose about 5% of their capacity, but after the 50,000-mile mark, the capacity levels off and it looks like it could be difficult to make a pack degrade by another 5%.

The trend line currently suggests that the average battery pack could cycle through over 300,000 km (186,000) before coming close to 90% capacity. ...
https://electrek.co/2018/04/14/tesla-battery-degradation-data/

Cross-posted in Batteries thread.

What I want to know is if there is a 'calendar' function that will change the slope of the curve at some point.  Or can we extend that curve out for hundreds of thousands of miles until the car falls apart from old age.

If the batteries don't fall off some sort of "old age" cliff then we might have our deep storage solution for the grid.  Gather up used EV batteries as the cars head toward the crushers.  Hook them to the grid as very cheap storage.  Use them to cover the few times a year when wind and solar under contribute for a few days in a row.

numerobis

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Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
« Reply #686 on: April 15, 2018, 04:33:50 AM »
Personally I think we’re 20+ years away from having a deep storage problem, if ever. We’ve got hydro and biomass and waste that we know how to use for power.

And in the meantime, while we’re still mining natural gas for plastic but not incinerating it all, we can once in a while pull a few CCNG stations out of mothballs for a long while yet to cover those few times that solar, wind, and battery with biomass and hydro backup aren’t enough.

Bob Wallace

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Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
« Reply #687 on: April 15, 2018, 05:09:51 AM »
Personally I think we’re 20+ years away from having a deep storage problem, if ever. We’ve got hydro and biomass and waste that we know how to use for power.

And in the meantime, while we’re still mining natural gas for plastic but not incinerating it all, we can once in a while pull a few CCNG stations out of mothballs for a long while yet to cover those few times that solar, wind, and battery with biomass and hydro backup aren’t enough.

In general, I agree.  Most grids are several years from dealing with the infrequent deep needs.  But by the time we get there we may have accumulated enough used EV batteries to do the job.  A battery that has spent 15 to 20 years in a car and still has at least 50% of capacity left should make for cheap storage.  Cycle them only a few times a year and they should last a long time.

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Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
« Reply #688 on: April 15, 2018, 02:58:01 PM »
If the batteries last forever, what will this do to planned obsolescence? Can BAU proceed without new car sales as part of the package?
Buy a new car at 16. Retire with it 50 years later, then 20 years later bequeath it to the nursing staff's carpool.
Cars that won't wear out, get themselves into accidents, or require much maintenance are wonderful for the owners, but spell doom for everyone else.


Do we need to rethink the whole thing?
Terry

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Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
« Reply #689 on: April 15, 2018, 04:12:25 PM »
Bob wrote:
Quote
What I want to know is if there is a 'calendar' function that will change the slope of the curve at some point.  Or can we extend that curve out for hundreds of thousands of miles until the car falls apart from old age.

Yours and Terry’s questions are the ones many people are asking.  The reason they haven’t been answered is because the population of EV/batteries only became significant about five years ago — so we don’t have a robust history older than that!

As the article notes,
Quote
CEO Elon Musk has been hyping even more potential for Tesla battery pack by once referring to a battery pack that Tesla was testing in the lab. He said that the company had simulated over 500,000 miles on it by repeatedly cycling it and that it was still operating at over 80% of its original capacity. At that point, the car itself is more likely to give up than the battery pack at this kind of mileage.

With their “million-mile” drivetrains and long-lasting (thermally-controlled) batteries, the current generation of EVs may be on the road for a very long time.  Imagine Cuba’s old cars, but as EVs. ;D

It looks like there will be fewer new-car and driving and maintenance-related automotive jobs in the future, and more... recycling ICE car materials?  Upgrading EV computer hardware and software?
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Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
« Reply #690 on: April 15, 2018, 06:57:10 PM »
When I think of battery degradation I think of a behavior similar to the one illustrated in the following graph:

http://batteryblog.ca/wp-content/uploads/2013/07/BAK_1-1600-Cycles2.jpg

There is quick degradation in the beginning, followed by a nice and slow decent until it reaches a point where the decent accelerates exponentially reaches bottom and then straightens up again.

Two things that I wonder about:

1. Why does it reaches an exponential decay phase? Is it because the demands on the batteries remain the same even when the capacity of the battery is diminished? What was a 20% to 80% cycle when the battery was 100% becomes a 5%-95% cycle as the battery reaches 90%. BY the time the battery gets to 80% the original 20%to 80% demand becomes less than 0 and more than 100% quickly ruining the battery.

If that is the case, then maybe significantly lowering the demand of the battery to appropriate levels significantly extends the battery life in a different application. 

2. When the battery reaches extremely low capacity the decay stops. The charge seems to be very small, but using massive parallelism of used up batteries they could be useful in applications where mass/volume doesn't matter, like grid storage. Of course that is subject to a possible "Calendar function" as described by Bob Wallace.
« Last Edit: April 16, 2018, 01:05:53 PM by Archimid »
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Bob Wallace

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Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
« Reply #691 on: April 15, 2018, 10:11:27 PM »
If the batteries last forever, what will this do to planned obsolescence? Can BAU proceed without new car sales as part of the package?
Buy a new car at 16. Retire with it 50 years later, then 20 years later bequeath it to the nursing staff's carpool.
Cars that won't wear out, get themselves into accidents, or require much maintenance are wonderful for the owners, but spell doom for everyone else.


Do we need to rethink the whole thing?
Terry

Life changed when autos replaced horses.

Life will change as EVs, especially self-driving EVs, replace ICEVs.

There's a high probability that over time most of us will cease owning cars.  Companies will own the cars and they will purchase models designed to last as long as possible. 

Cars will be designed to be corrosion resistant and to be easily 'refurbished' so they look like new.  We could easily see robotaxis that look the same from year to year and decade to decade.  Sort of like the London black cabs or Checker Cabs didn't have model year cosmetic changes.

The move to robotaxis (which I think will happen) will be part of the change that is coming as we automate manufacturing and service.  The need for human labor will decrease.  That's the issue I think we need to be working to solve. 

Bob Wallace

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Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
« Reply #692 on: April 15, 2018, 10:15:56 PM »
Quote
It looks like there will be fewer new-car and driving and maintenance-related automotive jobs in the future, and more... recycling ICE car materials?  Upgrading EV computer hardware and software?

Modular design.  Easily replaced interiors.  Easily replaced body parts.  Materials chosen for long life service.

In Europe people live in houses built hundreds of years ago.  The original walls last century after century.  They just replace the parts that wear out or get outdated. 

Greatly improved computers?  Undo a few screws and unplug some cables and install the new version.

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Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
« Reply #693 on: April 15, 2018, 11:06:18 PM »
Some of the questions raised up thread about why batteries die are answered by Jeff Dahn in videos that can be found on Youtube.

Here's a long lecture where he explains from about 4 years ago.




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Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
« Reply #694 on: April 17, 2018, 04:51:14 PM »
It’s about time!

DIY Li-ion battery building kit opens door for homemade ebikes, powerwalls and even EVs
https://electrek.co/2018/04/17/diy-li-ion-battery/

Image: this one’s on Kickstarter. Video at the link.
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Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
« Reply #695 on: April 19, 2018, 01:58:24 AM »
Latest power outage in Puerto Rico.

Tesla batteries are currently live & delivering power at 662 locations in Puerto Rico. Team is working 24/7 to activate several hundred more.

https://twitter.com/elonmusk/status/986746909153869824

Sigmetnow

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Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
« Reply #696 on: April 19, 2018, 03:57:56 PM »
Latest power outage in Puerto Rico.

Tesla batteries are currently live & delivering power at 662 locations in Puerto Rico. Team is working 24/7 to activate several hundred more.

https://twitter.com/elonmusk/status/986746909153869824

More:
Quote
As we previously reported, some of those locations include very critical services.

For example, Tesla deployed a series of Powerpack systems on the Puerto Rican islands of Vieques and Culebra for a sanitary sewer treatment plant, the Arcadia water pumping station, the Ciudad Dorada elderly community, the Susan Centeno hospital, and the Boys and Girls Club of Vieques.

Furthermore, the automaker’s energy division also deployed a solar+battery system at a hospital in Puerto Rico.

Tesla shipped a few hundred more Powerwalls to Puerto Rico and sent technicians from all over the US to install them.

According to Musk, the effort resulted in 662 projects and there are more underway. ...
https://electrek.co/2018/04/18/tesla-powerwall-powerpack-puerto-rico-blackout-elon-musk/


Puerto Rican officials met with Tesla early on after the storm, to identify the most urgent needs.
From Oct 2017:
Tesla starts shipping Powerpacks to Puerto Rico
https://electrek.co/2017/10/15/tesla-powerpacks-puerto-rico/
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Sigmetnow

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Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
« Reply #697 on: April 19, 2018, 07:59:12 PM »
They paved paradise the desert
and put up a parking lot!

Tesla Gigafactory 1 new aerial pictures tease facility’s possible expansion
https://www.teslarati.com/tesla-gigafactory-1-new-aerial-pictures-expansion/


”Between Fremont and Giga, Tesla will be adding about 400 people per week for several weeks.”
https://electrek.co/2018/04/17/tesla-model-3-production-goal-6000-units-per-week/
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Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
« Reply #698 on: April 19, 2018, 09:48:22 PM »
Quote
They paved paradise the desert
and put up a parking lot!

Beats the heck out of an oil spill.

Sigmetnow

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Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
« Reply #699 on: April 27, 2018, 10:17:54 PM »
Sweden

Northvolt starts construction on first phase of its planned battery gigafactory
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Northvolt, a company founded by two former Tesla executives who broke out on their own to build a battery gigafactory in Europe, has been making a lot of moves and partnerships lately.

Now, the duo has began construction on the first phase of its planned battery gigafactory.  They are building the ‘Northvolt Labs’ in Sweden.

The location will serve as “a research facility used to develop, test and industrialize lithium-ion battery cells before large-scale production.”

It will have a production capacity of 125 MWh per year, which they will then expand for the battery gigafactory.

The factory is expected to start production in 2020 with a target capacity of 8 GWh per year and they will aim for 32 GWh of capacity once the entire factory will be completed in 2023.

It would make it the biggest li-ion battery factory in Europe and comparable in size to the first phase of Tesla’s Gigafactory 1 in Nevada. Peter Carlsson, Founder and CEO of Northvolt, and Paolo Cerruti, COO of Northvolt, both worked on the Gigafactory 1 project. ...
https://electrek.co/2018/04/27/northvolt-construction-first-phase-planned-battery-gigafactory/
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