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Author Topic: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution  (Read 158918 times)

Bob Wallace

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Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
« Reply #800 on: June 26, 2018, 07:06:59 AM »
Here's the thing, Lurker.

There is no reasonable way to stop the use of coal. 

Your solution, well, I told Neven that I would try to curtail my disdain for ....

Sleepy

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Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
« Reply #801 on: June 26, 2018, 08:03:18 AM »
Northvolt factory by air.

Edit; these claim to have read the annual report for 2017.
https://www.breakit.se/artikel/14082/vi-fick-tag-pa-northvolts-arsredovisning-har-ar-det-mest-spannande
Not much to say about it, giggle translate if you wish to read it.
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Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
« Reply #802 on: June 26, 2018, 09:04:30 AM »
Yeah, concrete and all the other stuff that goes into building it by the caring help of fossil fuels will certainly provide a pretty picture. That factory is beeing built in the northern parts but we do still have forests and therefore also some space left in the southern parts, ASILurker. We just have to remove some of that annoying biomass first. Who needs that green stuff anyway...
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oren

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Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
« Reply #803 on: June 26, 2018, 01:54:41 PM »
Me, I'm flexible, so I have another solution for consideration.

Ban the use of (thermal) Coal giving 4 years notice everywhere except in the United States.
Great solution. But how? Who is doing the banning?

Sigmetnow

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Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
« Reply #804 on: June 26, 2018, 05:47:32 PM »
This has been mentioned once or twice before, here.  Looks like it may begin to see wider use in buildings in warm climates.  Storing cold, rather than heat.

A California Startup That Cools With Ice Raises $40 Million
Quote
Ice Energy, a California firm that uses chunks of ice to cool buildings, has secured $40 million in financing from private equity group Argo Infrastructure Partners LLC.

The bulk of the funding will help pay for a storage project for Edison International’s Southern California Edison utility, Ice Energy Chief Executive Officer Mike Hopkins said in an interview.
...
Ice Energy, based in Costa Mesa, California, makes refrigerator-sized systems that freeze water at night when electricity prices are low and uses it to provide cooling during the day when rates are higher. They’re installed on the roofs of commercial buildings and connected to air conditioning systems. When switched on, they cut down on buildings’ electricity demand and free up supplies for utilities to use.
https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2018-06-26/a-california-startup-that-cools-with-ice-raises-40-million%5B
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Shared Humanity

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Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
« Reply #805 on: June 26, 2018, 06:25:02 PM »
Quote
humans will unite only once the enemy is in front of their city walls and there is no fog to omit that fact.

This is a very important fact.  We need to keep it in mind.

Yes and given the very long feedback loops between increased CO2 levels and climate change, if we wait until the enemy is at the gates, we're "dead men walking".

Shared Humanity

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Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
« Reply #806 on: June 26, 2018, 06:43:11 PM »
Quote
incremental change is not enough

Please give a non-incremental solution to climate change.

Give us a way to stop global warming that consists of one single step.

1). All of humanity finally recognizes the obvious and has this guide all of their actions.

We are all facing a rapidly approaching existential crisis. (Deep down inside, anyone paying attention already understands this. This is the source of our discomfort and disquiet as we go about living our lives.) We have, at most, 3 decades to avoid our self destruction which will play out over the ensuing century. The enemy is all sources of CO2 emissions and these emissions are inextricably interwoven into the very fabric of our civilization as currently organized.

The step, you see, is not technological. It is intellectual, emotional, sociological. We need to come to the realization that each of us individually and all of us collectively are driving humanity to the brink of extinction. We need to see the humanity in all around us and recognize that our healthy future is absolutely dependent on theirs (the health of the entire biosphere as well). We need to undergo this single transformation in thought and understanding and then act accordingly.

Yes, radical, not incremental and absolutely necessary or as you might say, "Magical Thinking" but nothing less than this will save us.

Shared Humanity

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Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
« Reply #807 on: June 26, 2018, 06:45:44 PM »
If your name was Rosa Parks you'd still be sitting at the back of the bus.

But the bus would be powered by batteries!

Did you see how I brought that one back on topic?  ;)

Let me help too.

I consider coal to be nature's battery...been charging for hundreds of millions of years. So we are already battery powered.

See? Problem solved!

Bob Wallace

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Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
« Reply #808 on: June 26, 2018, 07:07:47 PM »
Quote
"Great solution. But how? Who is doing the banning?"

The People, obviously, via their Govts at the UNFCCC.

Anyone who breaks ranks the most powerful nation on this planet sends them a gentle reminder by way of Cruise Missiles - 3 strikes you're out with a Nuke missile. iow SOP for the US to get their own way.

Mr. Lurker

This used to be a place where people had rational and thoughtful discussions of how we might avoid extreme climate change.

It looks like you have both the ability and desire to destroy what was for some unknown reason.

Sad.

Bob Wallace

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Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
« Reply #809 on: June 26, 2018, 07:16:53 PM »
Quote
humans will unite only once the enemy is in front of their city walls and there is no fog to omit that fact.

This is a very important fact.  We need to keep it in mind.

Yes and given the very long feedback loops between increased CO2 levels and climate change, if we wait until the enemy is at the gates, we're "dead men walking".

Correct.  IMHO.

Our best chance is that technology continues to advance at a rapid rate, bringing us cheaper and cheaper alternatives to fossil fuels.  And we accelerate our switch to renewable energy for economic reasons.

I expect the greater population to increase its concern about climate change as years flow by, we get hit by more extreme weather events and rising sea levels, and as deniers die off.

As concern rises then there should be a push on utilities and governments to quit fossil fuels.  If the math works in favor of EVs there will be no logical reason for utilities and governments to support fossil fuel (other than economic self interest on the part of individuals).

If wind and solar LCOEs drop to ~$0.01/kWh as some in the industries predict and EVs become 20% cheaper than ICEVs to purchase then we may not need public pressure. 

Obviously we need to do all we can to increase public concern as the economics might not turn out to be enough.

Bob Wallace

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Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
« Reply #810 on: June 26, 2018, 07:19:46 PM »
Quote
"Give us a way to stop global warming that consists of one single step."

1). All of humanity finally recognizes the obvious and has this guide all of their actions.

Setting aside the low probability of that happening soon enough it would still take incremental steps to reach a fossil fuel free world.  We still have to go through the same steps of gradually replacing fossil fuel with renewable energy.  We'd just do it faster.

Bob Wallace

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Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
« Reply #811 on: June 26, 2018, 07:28:43 PM »
Quote
We need to come to the realization that each of us individually and all of us collectively are driving humanity to the brink of extinction.

And here we encounter something about which I cannot be optimistic.  Enough people realizing and making changes.

We certainly need to.  We also need to quit smoking, quit over drinking, lose weight, get more exercise, watch less junk TV and do something educational, invest for our retirement, get our oil changed on schedule....

Some of us live in a bubble of "aware" people who also walk their talk.  That's probably a very small percentage of the world's people.  Go to the mall or non-hipster bar and see how many people look like they are aware, awake, and adopting.

I think it extremely important to assume we have to solve the climate change problem without relying on a vast number of individuals to change their lifestyles in order to avoid wide scale disaster.

Shared Humanity

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Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
« Reply #812 on: June 26, 2018, 08:04:16 PM »
Here's the thing, Lurker.

There is no reasonable way to stop the use of coal. 

Yes, you are correct. But when faced with an impending existential crisis, it is essential that we become unreasonable.

We are all going to die because......reasons.

Bob Wallace

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Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
« Reply #813 on: June 26, 2018, 08:08:48 PM »
Here's the thing, Lurker.

There is no reasonable way to stop the use of coal. 

Yes, you are correct. But when faced with an impending existential crisis, it is essential that we become unreasonable.

We are all going to die because......reasons.

Sorry, I just can't go doomer.

We all are very unlikely to die.

Some of us will die because of climate change, some of us already have.  The question is how bad will we let it be?  Do we allow human-caused climate change to kill 1%, 10%, 50%, 90% of us?

If we want to keep the number on the low end then we need to figure out what works and do it.

Shared Humanity

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Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
« Reply #814 on: June 26, 2018, 08:09:20 PM »
Quote
humans will unite only once the enemy is in front of their city walls and there is no fog to omit that fact.

This is a very important fact.  We need to keep it in mind.

Yes and given the very long feedback loops between increased CO2 levels and climate change, if we wait until the enemy is at the gates, we're "dead men walking".

Correct.  IMHO.

Our best chance is that technology continues to advance at a rapid rate, bringing us cheaper and cheaper alternatives to fossil fuels.  And we accelerate our switch to renewable energy for economic reasons.

I expect the greater population to increase its concern about climate change as years flow by, we get hit by more extreme weather events and rising sea levels, and as deniers die off.

As concern rises then there should be a push on utilities and governments to quit fossil fuels.  If the math works in favor of EVs there will be no logical reason for utilities and governments to support fossil fuel (other than economic self interest on the part of individuals).

If wind and solar LCOEs drop to ~$0.01/kWh as some in the industries predict and EVs become 20% cheaper than ICEVs to purchase then we may not need public pressure. 

Obviously we need to do all we can to increase public concern as the economics might not turn out to be enough.

The economics will absolutely not be enough. It is the economics of our individual and collective decision making that has gotten us here in the 1st place.

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Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
« Reply #815 on: June 26, 2018, 08:11:19 PM »
Here's the thing, Lurker.

There is no reasonable way to stop the use of coal. 

Yes, you are correct. But when faced with an impending existential crisis, it is essential that we become unreasonable.

We are all going to die because......reasons.

Sorry, I just can't go doomer.

We all are very unlikely to die.

Some of us will die because of climate change, some of us already have.  The question is how bad will we let it be?  Do we allow human-caused climate change to kill 1%, 10%, 50%, 90% of us?

If we want to keep the number on the low end then we need to figure out what works and do it.

I am not a doomer. We have the knowledge and the technology to fix this in a decade. What we lack is the political will.

You are suggesting that Green BAU will save us and I am certain it will kill us.

Bob Wallace

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Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
« Reply #816 on: June 26, 2018, 08:16:19 PM »
Quote
The economics will absolutely not be enough. It is the economics of our individual and collective decision making that has gotten us here in the 1st place.

It would be helpful if you had indicated what you mean by "enough".

If you mean economics won't cause us to replace fossil fuels with renewable energy I strongly disagree. 

If you mean that won't happen rapidly enough to avoid extreme climate change I'd have to say that I don't know.  I think there's a chance but it's not a chance we should take. 

We need to do more than sit back and see what economic forces do.  We need to be catalysts, pushing the reaction faster in order to minimize our hurt.

Sigmetnow

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Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
« Reply #817 on: June 26, 2018, 08:21:20 PM »
...
You are suggesting that Green BAU will save us and I am certain it will kill us.

Excellent summation!  Now we just need to wait a bit and see who is correct.

Place your bets!
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Bob Wallace

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Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
« Reply #818 on: June 26, 2018, 08:28:59 PM »
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You are suggesting that Green BAU will save us

That is not my position.

That has never been my position.



Sigmetnow

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Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
« Reply #819 on: June 26, 2018, 09:54:42 PM »
Quote
You are suggesting that Green BAU will save us

That is not my position.

That has never been my position.


“You are suggesting that Green BAU will save us and I am certain it will kill us.”

It may be dumb, untrue and hyperbolic, but I think as an overall thumbnail description it states your differences rather succinctly.  Lacks nuance and a time frame, though. 
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Bob Wallace

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Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
« Reply #820 on: June 26, 2018, 10:20:38 PM »
Quote
You are suggesting that Green BAU will save us

That is not my position.

That has never been my position.


“You are suggesting that Green BAU will save us and I am certain it will kill us.”

It may be dumb, untrue and hyperbolic, but I think as an overall thumbnail description it states your differences rather succinctly.  Lacks nuance and a time frame, though.

You mean something like this?

Quote
It would be helpful if you had indicated what you mean by "enough".

If you mean economics won't cause us to replace fossil fuels with renewable energy I strongly disagree. 

If you mean that won't happen rapidly enough to avoid extreme climate change I'd have to say that I don't know.  I think there's a chance but it's not a chance we should take. 

oren

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Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
« Reply #821 on: June 27, 2018, 03:24:28 AM »
We have the knowledge and the technology to fix this in a decade. What we lack is the political will.

Green BAU will not save us and I am certain it will kill us.
It's all a question of what part of the sad unsolvable problem you are focusing on. What partial derivative of the damned equation you are calculating.
I mostly agree with the above quote, but (and yes I am a doomer, but not because I want to be) -
We do lack the political will. So some accept that as a fact and are seeking a technological/economic solution within the present framework that does not entail strong political will, under the assumption that waiting for the political will is what will kill us. Even if that solution is partial and too slow, it's the only solution that will ever get implemented.
Others accept that technology and economics by itself ("Green BAU") won't save us and surmise that the problem is lack of political will, and that this must be addressed. They are correct too. But it won't be addressed, as there is not enough political will.
Some feel there is no political will because of those focusing on tech/economical fixes and lulling us. Not true at all. Their voice is not heard widely enough. They used the same voice for decades to try and create political will, and failed.

Green BAU will not "save us" mainly because it is too slow. But neither will other more radical solutions because they won't get implemented. Because most people can't afford to deal with it/don't care enough/not aware enough, and this mass awareness/"political will" will come too late.
IMHO by the time most people are aware of the doom upon us, "the enemy at the gates" stage, there will not be enough physical capability to solve the problem, and certainly not enough cooperation as everyone scrambles to survive against diminishing odds, as they realize the mess won't ever be solved. I am certain war and strife will happen way before global unity.
See how we fight among ourselves in this forum, as we realize the mess won't ever be solved (unless insert your favorite here, but it won't happen sorry).
So Green BAU as you call it is grasping at straws as we are drowning, but is the only thing remaining at the present quandary. I am quite sure it won't be the thing that kills us, but rather the logical thing to do when there's no wood around and some straw is floating along.
And if some claim they believe it will save us wholly or partially, it just might encourage us to grasp that straw and increase our survival chances. We don't have other real options anyway, so it can't hurt to try.

Note: some claim Green BAU can hurt future humanity by using precious resources now, thus making them scarcer following the inevitable civilizational collapse, so the best solution is managed collapse now. Possibly true, but my operational stance is to ignore this, focusing on present humanity.

Shared Humanity

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Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
« Reply #822 on: June 27, 2018, 06:07:26 AM »
...
You are suggesting that Green BAU will save us and I am certain it will kill us.

Excellent summation!  Now we just need to wait a bit and see who is correct.

Place your bets!

I will concede that Bob is correct. I am sure he agrees.

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Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
« Reply #823 on: June 27, 2018, 06:53:57 AM »
...
You are suggesting that Green BAU will save us and I am certain it will kill us.

Excellent summation!  Now we just need to wait a bit and see who is correct.

Place your bets!
Yes, here's the record, so far.
There are mainly four groups, deniers, skeptics, incrementalists and realists.
All of them can claim to be the positive ones and accuse the rest of beeing negative, even within their own group. Where's the progress in that?

Discussions should be about what we should do about it, like now. We still have some time, not much but some to avoid the worst outcomes, maybe I'm the most positive old fart in here?

But we have collectively and effectively, messed upp three decades now. Yesterday was a 30 year anniversary.


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Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
« Reply #824 on: June 27, 2018, 07:10:37 AM »
See how we fight among ourselves in this forum, as we realize the mess won't ever be solved (unless insert your favorite here, but it won't happen sorry).
I'm not really fighting anyone, if people change politicans will change, and that is actually happening to some degree now, which I've tried to express in here. Fast enough? Probably not.
But stepping on it will guarantee failure.

Here's our politicians proposals before the upcoming election. This is a huge change compared to only a couple of years back. Still not enough by any means, but they are moving...
https://sverigesradio.se/sida/artikel.aspx?programid=83&artikel=6983756
Adding a giggle translated image with the short summaries.

Batteries anyone?  :)
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Sigmetnow

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Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
« Reply #825 on: June 27, 2018, 01:30:21 PM »
And... here’s something back on topic:

Hyundai announces deal to build energy storage projects with used EV battery packs
Quote
Automakers have two main options when it comes to managing used electric vehicle battery packs: they can use them in energy storage applications or recycle them for the materials.

Hyundai announced a new deal today to do the former.

The Korean automaker has selected Wärtsilä, a technology company working on complete lifecycle solutions for the marine and energy markets, to be “a technology and commercial partnership designed to utilize second-life electric vehicle (EV) batteries for the growing energy storage market.”
...
Hyundai says that it is already developing a small 1 MWh energy storage system using Hyundai IONIQ Electric’s and Kia Soul EV’s second-life battery packs. The system, which is being deployed at Hyundai Steel’s factory, is going to serve as a demonstration project. ...
https://electrek.co/2018/06/26/hyundai-used-ev-battery-packs-energy-storage-projects/
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Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
« Reply #826 on: June 27, 2018, 07:20:16 PM »
And... here’s something back on topic:

Hyundai announces deal to build energy storage projects with used EV battery packs
Quote
Automakers have two main options when it comes to managing used electric vehicle battery packs: they can use them in energy storage applications or recycle them for the materials.

Hyundai announced a new deal today to do the former.

The Korean automaker has selected Wärtsilä, a technology company working on complete lifecycle solutions for the marine and energy markets, to be “a technology and commercial partnership designed to utilize second-life electric vehicle (EV) batteries for the growing energy storage market.”
...
Hyundai says that it is already developing a small 1 MWh energy storage system using Hyundai IONIQ Electric’s and Kia Soul EV’s second-life battery packs. The system, which is being deployed at Hyundai Steel’s factory, is going to serve as a demonstration project. ...
https://electrek.co/2018/06/26/hyundai-used-ev-battery-packs-energy-storage-projects/

IMHO the ability for local governments and private companies to provide battery lease agreements with personal electric vehicle owners to ensure that these batteries are provided as a low cost distributed energy storage solution (as well as utility scale configurations) is one of the most important revenue generation potentials for electric vehicle producers as they will greatly reduce the up front cost of EVs as well as reduce the vehicle depreciation costs by over 1/2.
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Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
« Reply #827 on: June 27, 2018, 07:38:12 PM »
New giga-factories are being planned for the German automotive industry:

https://cleantechnica.com/2018/06/26/german-state-of-saarland-makes-bid-for-tesla-gigafactory-in-public-letter/

Quote
The regional leadership team in Saarland invited Elon Musk out to the country for a tour of the best of the region. Landing the Gigafactory represents upwards of 10,000 direct jobs at full capacity in addition to the tens of thousands of indirect jobs a facility the size of the Gigafactory generates. Perhaps more importantly, Tesla and its Gigafactories represent the technology of the future as automotive and energy companies pivot away from fossil fuel-fired technologies towards renewables and electric transportation technologies — all of which run on batteries.

Tesla is not alone in moving into the region to capitalize on the technical workforce Germany is known for. Chinese battery conglomerate CATL announced that it was also looking for the right home in Germany for a €1 billion investment in battery manufacturing capacity — though, its batteries would be built for sale to local automotive manufacturers.

Sigmetnow

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Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
« Reply #828 on: June 27, 2018, 09:03:30 PM »
Australia:  the Tesla Big Battery

How much money did Tesla big battery make over summer?
The performance and economics of the Tesla big battery – otherwise known as the Hornsdale Power Reserve – continue to fascinate.

It is the first battery of its scale to be connected to Australia’s main grid, it’s the biggest lithium-ion battery installation in the world, and it is the pathfinder for dozens of other large-scale battery projects that will follow, including many under construction.

Quote
But how much money did the Tesla big battery actually make for its owners?

It’s an important question for the battery storage industry, and the wind and solar industries, particularly as the market, indeed the need for time shifting storage emerges in markets such as Queensland, where middle of the day whole-sale prices are already falling below zero.

According to an AEMO presentation made at a Monash University forum last week, and not included in AEMO’s previous documents, the Tesla big battery earned a “gross margin” from wholesale market trading of around $2.5 million in the three months from January 1 to March 31.
...
It also earned money from FCAS regulation and contingency markets, and according to AEMO was actin e in FCAS markets 99.5 per cent of the time.

Between the Tesla big battery and demand response offered by EnerNOC, they captured 20 per cent of the country’s FCAS market and helped lower prices by around 57 per cent.

AEMO has also recognised – when the Tesla big battery has intervened after the sudden trip of a major coal unit – that the battery responded faster and more accurately than conventional plant.

It admits that this has caused it to rethink some of the management of the grid, and whether Tesla and other batteries should get paid for bringing that super fast response capability (they currently don’t).

The wholesale margin of $2.5 million for the quarter may not seem much for a battery, but it is important to remember that this only relates to the 30MW/90MWh component playing in the wholesale market.

The rest of the battery is reserved for as yet untapped emergency back-up services for the local grid, under an arrangement with the South Australia government that has not been disclosed, but could be as much as $10 million a year. ...
https://reneweconomy.com.au/how-much-money-did-tesla-big-battery-make-over-summer-21054/
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Sigmetnow

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Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
« Reply #829 on: June 30, 2018, 01:38:21 AM »
Tesla and PG&E are working on a massive ‘up to 1.1 GWh’ Powerpack battery system
Quote
Today, we learn that Tesla is working with PG&E on a massive battery system with a capacity of “up to 1.1 GWh” in California.

Pacific Gas and Electric Company (PG&E), one of the largest electric energy companies in the United States covering nearly 16 million people in Northern and Central California, submitted 4 new energy storage projects to the California Public Utilities Commission (CPUC) for approval today.  Three are third-party owned projects to be connected to PG&E’s grid, but the fourth one is “a proposed utility-owned 182.5 MW lithium-ion battery energy storage system (BESS) located within PG&E’s Moss Landing substation.”

Tesla would be providing the battery packs for the giant project, which would be able to output 182.5 MW of power for 4 hours, which represents 730 MWh of energy capacity or over 3,000 Tesla Powerpack 2s.  PG&E also has the option to increase the capacity to 6 hours for a total of 1.1 GWh.

Earlier this month, Tesla CTO JB Straubel announced that the company has deployed over 1 GWh of energy storage – a capacity that he says is “undeniably making an impact.”  If this new project is approved and deployed to its full potential, it would represent more energy capacity in a single project than what Tesla Energy deployed since its inception 3 years ago.

PG&E says that the battery system would be used to “address local capacity requirements and will participate in the California Independent System Operator (CAISO) markets, providing energy and ancillary services,” which is similar to what Tesla’s battery system in Australia is doing.

We recently reported that the Australian battery project reduced by 90% the cost of the grid services that used to be performed by fossil fuel power plants. ...
https://electrek.co/2018/06/29/tesla-pge-giant-1-gwh-powerpack-battery-system/
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Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
« Reply #830 on: June 30, 2018, 11:56:37 AM »
Amsterdam, Netherlands.

The big(gish) 2.8MWh/3MW second life EV battery storage facility at the Johan Cruijff ArenA goes live:

« Last Edit: June 30, 2018, 12:03:45 PM by Jim Hunt »
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Sigmetnow

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Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
« Reply #831 on: June 30, 2018, 08:25:40 PM »
BYD opens new battery factory, claims it will be ‘largest in the world’
Quote
Most automakers are investing in battery research and development, but they are shy about getting into manufacturing and prefer leaving it to current suppliers.

But BYD is pushing harder toward battery manufacturing in order to support its many EV efforts, which range from its own brand in China to partnerships with other automakers, like Daimler, and its electric truck and bus division in the US.
https://electrek.co/2018/06/29/byd-new-battery-factory-largest-in-the-world/

“BYD focuses on the production of prismatic LiFePO4 battery cells, different from most of the auto industry’s NCA and NMC battery cells.”
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Sigmetnow

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Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
« Reply #832 on: July 03, 2018, 08:57:31 PM »
California.  (See also Reply #841 above. https://forum.arctic-sea-ice.net/index.php/topic,1150.msg161437.html#msg161437 )

Pacific Gas and Electric to replace 3 gas plants with world's biggest battery projects
• Pacific Gas and Electric (PG&E) late last week requested approval from the California Public Utilities Commission (CPUC) for four energy storage projects totaling about 2,270 MWh.
• The CPUC authorized PG&E to issue a solicitation for energy storage projects to replace three power plants that would otherwise require reliability must-run (RMR) contracts.
• PG&E selected offers of three energy storage projects from third-party owners, totaling 385.5 MW, 1,540 MWh, and one 182.5 MW, 730 MWh project the utility would own.
Quote
The energy storage projects are being built to avoid the need to keep three Calpine gas-fired plants running as RMR resources and to shore up congestion issues in the region.

"Storage at this scale is likely now cheaper than the total cost to run the gas plants," Alex Eller, senior energy research analyst at Navigant, told Utility Dive via email.

The announcement includes what is set to be the largest lithium-ion battery installation of its kind: a 300 MW, 1,200 MWh storage project owned by a subsidiary of Vistra Energy, Dynegy Marketing and Trade. The project would be three times the size of the current world record: Tesla's 100 MW, 129 MWh battery in Australia.

PG&E's procurement request is also a "landmark event" because the utility would own the 182.5 MW, 730 MWh project it is building with Tesla. "I imagine this is the largest utility-owned, non-hydro, storage project in the world by far," Eller said. "Essentially, I see this as one of our largest utilities recognizing that the technology risk of battery storage is minimal and they have full faith that it can deliver the promised benefits at a competitive cost."
https://www.utilitydive.com/news/pge-to-replace-3-gas-plants-with-worlds-biggest-battery-projects/526991/
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Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
« Reply #833 on: July 06, 2018, 09:11:17 PM »
Further indication that recycling of second-live EV batteries after they have been used to full End-of Useful Life (EUL) is going to be a cost-effective proposal.

https://spectrum.ieee.org/energywise/energy/environment/simple-energyefficient-recycling-process-for-lithiumion-cathodes

Chen is now refining his process so it can be used for any lithium battery material. He is also in talks with a Chinese battery processing company that is interested in adopting the new recycling method.
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Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
« Reply #834 on: July 08, 2018, 12:57:58 AM »
Battery recycling projects.

Here’s Where 3 Million EV Batteries Will Go When They Retire
https://www.renewableenergyworld.com/articles/2018/07/heres-where-3-million-ev-batteries-will-go-when-they-retire.html
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Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
« Reply #835 on: July 08, 2018, 01:21:22 PM »
”While Tesla expands Gigafactory production, other companies are searching for battery cells from outside suppliers to expand electric vehicle volume. Meanwhile, if solid state technology works out, Tesla can implement it in existing lines reasonably readily.”

Tesla Gigafactory Battery Tech Risk Is A Myth
https://cleantechnica.com/2018/07/07/tesla-gigafactory-battery-tech-risk-is-a-myth/
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Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
« Reply #836 on: July 08, 2018, 01:56:00 PM »
Here’s Where 3 Million EV Batteries Will Go When They Retire
https://www.renewableenergyworld.com/articles/2018/07/heres-where-3-million-ev-batteries-will-go-when-they-retire.html

Friggin love it!

Quote
The first batches of batteries from electric and hybrid vehicles are hitting retirement age, yet they aren’t bound for landfills. Instead, they’ll spend their golden years chilling beer at 7-Elevens in Japan, powering car-charging stations in California and storing energy for homes and grids in Europe.
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Sigmetnow

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Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
« Reply #837 on: July 08, 2018, 04:51:37 PM »
”Markets Insider predicts that the market for grid-connected battery storage will grow from $3.3 billion in 2016 to $14 billion by 2021, and probably well over $100 billion by 2030 — a compound annual growth rate of around 34 percent.”

The Rising Energy Storage Revolution
https://cleantechnica.com/2018/07/07/the-rising-energy-storage-revolution/
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Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
« Reply #838 on: July 16, 2018, 04:29:43 PM »
Distributed, residential batteries can provide grid services much like “big batteries,” report shows.  South Australia is rethinking its decision to downsize the Tesla project.

Tesla builds case for 250MW virtual power plant after first trial success
Quote
The results of those trials conducted by Tesla – obtained by RenewEconomy – show that groups of Tesla Powerwalls installed in homes can deliver much of the same services as the Tesla big battery in South Australia, such as providing rapid and accurate response to frequency changes.

This graph below shows how two Tesla Powerwalls (red and green), respond to so-called “droop settings” by autonomously and automatically injecting active power when the frequency (blue line) drops below the thresholds (dotted lines).

“This response demonstrates the ability of the SA VPP to autonomously and instantaneously provide frequency services that help maintain the stability of the grid,” the Tesla document says.

The South Australia government acknowledged this, saying that Phase 1 of the Tesla VPP (100 homes)  demonstrates that distributed Powerwall technology can increase the supply of energy during peak periods.

It says this would increase reliability and cut prices in South Australia and “when paired with solar and wind” generate clean renewable energy. ...
https://reneweconomy.com.au/tesla-builds-case-for-250mw-virtual-power-plant-after-first-trial-success-63950/


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The link’s nine-tweet thread provides commentary on the above article.
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Sigmetnow

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Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
« Reply #839 on: July 17, 2018, 01:37:09 AM »
Another article on the SA VPP, with a Tesla video.  Powerwall production must be ramping up!

Tesla deploys first 100 Powerwalls with solar for new virtual power plant in Australia – already having an impact
https://electrek.co/2018/07/16/tesla-powerwalls-new-virtual-power-plant-australia/
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Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
« Reply #840 on: July 24, 2018, 11:06:31 PM »
Whilst I agree that Batteries will have a huge impact in storing and stabilising grids and levelling intermittent renewables, batteries in cars to provide EV are a completely different issue.

This article shows the problem quite clearly in the UK.

Simply put we don't have enough electrical power to replace fossil fuel powered vehicles with Electricity.  The UK grid is already looking to try and force EV owners to charge at night.  We are talking 160,000 out of some 26 Million personal vehicles and, already, we're running out of power during the day.

In winter this is far worse as solar is producing much less but consumption is much higher.

I've said this before and I will continue to say it.  The UK uses 40% of its entire energy consumption as fuel for transport.  Electricity generation is less than that.  Requiring a more than doubling of the available baseload power, for peak periods like winter, in order to transition from hydrocarbon vehicles to electric.

In reality what will happen is that the UK sucks in coal fired power from the Netherlands and Belgium, over the channel cable, re-sold through France as clean Nuclear power.

It is OK going mad about batteries and EV.  But we need something to put in them and, today, that something is fossil fuel.  When we look at MTOE figures for energy usage, where exactly are we going to get these millions of tonnes, equivalent, of oil as power.  Most of our power stations are not designed to work 24x7x366.  We have a hell of a lot of fast reacting gas turbine power, now we have shut down most of the coal.  But you can't run gas turbines forever, they need shut down and maintenance.

Our governments need to have a joined up thinking but, right now, there is nothing like it.

Especially as we have a major climate accord about every decade and for every accord and every decade, the average annual increase in CO2, on a decadal cadence, increases.

Batteries on their own won't save us.  But they will be a critical part of the mix.
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oren

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Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
« Reply #841 on: July 25, 2018, 03:53:38 AM »
Simply put we don't have enough electrical power to replace fossil fuel powered vehicles with Electricity.
This is an important point, as EVs by themselves don't solve the systemic GHG problem. But the "textbook" solution is to roll out huge amounts of solar (for daytime, summer) and wind turbines (for winter, evenings) both onshore and offshore, while relying on hydro, grid storage and intermittent gas turbines to round out the curve.

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Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
« Reply #842 on: July 25, 2018, 08:57:50 AM »

I've said this before and I will continue to say it.  The UK uses 40% of its entire energy consumption as fuel for transport.  Electricity generation is less than that.  Requiring a more than doubling of the available baseload power, for peak periods like winter, in order to transition from hydrocarbon vehicles to electric.


This is simply not true.
Basically the power grids are already able to support 100% BEV IF(!) the charging time is properly managed. Some improvement are of course required, but we are not talking about a complete rebuild.
Charging the car is usually done with approx. 3 KW at home - we are not talking about fast charging at home. This is less than what is required when cooking the evening meal.

There are very reliable calculation for the electricity requirements when we are at 100% BEV. For Germany we are talking about an increase of the electricity consumption of about 10 - 15% @100% BEV!
Taking the current energy consumption of the car fleet leads to nowhere as the efficiency of the current cars is a disaster. I'm driving an electric car now for 1 year (IONIQ) and on average (on an yearly basis) I see 15 KWh / 100 km at the power outlet (this includes the charging losses). Thus my car uses ~ 1.5 liter of diesel from the energy content point of view. And usually you would of course try to use as much PV as possible to charge you car.

For a comparable ICE car we can assume 6 liter/ 100 km (that is at least what I saw for my previous car) and thus I'm now using only a quarter of the energy. Taking the 40% you mentioned as energy consumption we would end up with only 10% which would fit very good to the 10 - 15 % increase of the electricity consumption I mentioned before.


gerontocrat

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Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
« Reply #843 on: July 25, 2018, 10:21:49 AM »

I've said this before and I will continue to say it.  The UK uses 40% of its entire energy consumption as fuel for transport.  Electricity generation is less than that.  Requiring a more than doubling of the available baseload power, for peak periods like winter, in order to transition from hydrocarbon vehicles to electric.


This is simply not true.
Basically the power grids are already able to support 100% BEV IF(!) the charging time is properly managed. Some improvement are of course required, but we are not talking about a complete rebuild.  Charging the car is usually done with approx. 3 KW at home - we are not talking about fast charging at home. This is less than what is required when cooking the evening meal.

There are very reliable calculation for the electricity requirements when we are at 100% BEV. For Germany we are talking about an increase of the electricity consumption of about 10 - 15% @100% BEV!

The National Grid has already said it can manage successfully an electricity grid totally powered by renewables - wind and solar. Big Batteries will obviously play an increasingly significant role in network management. BUT...

The biggest constraints the UK have to ridding itself of fossil fuel for energy are:-
- our dumb government has banned new onshore wind power projects (simply to keep Tory MPs in rural areas happy (NIMBY)). Onshore wind is by far the cheapest renewable energy option.
This could be changed at the stroke of a pen.

- our dumb Government is kicking the domestic solar power industry to death. Soon, householders will not be able to sell excess power from new domestic installations to the electricity company, i.e. we are going backwards.

- in the UK gas central heating (domestic, and commercial) is the norm. Using electricity for heating systems has a long history of failure, and there is an enormous infrastructure in place.

Incidentally, there is already a simple low-tech system in place for lower tariffs for night-time electricity use - "Economy 7". It is a separate meter that only kicks in for the low-demand hours. Smart meters are supposed to be 100% in place by 2020 - but looks more like 2023, by which time EVs may well have taken off big-time.

I see no problem in getting to 80% reduction in fossil fuel use, except a Government that is slinging scarce financial resources at fracking for gas and new nuclear plants, and is becoming almost hostile to any acceleration in investments in wind and solar.

The problem is not the technology - it is the people who presume to govern us.
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Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
« Reply #844 on: July 25, 2018, 11:12:23 AM »

I've said this before and I will continue to say it.  The UK uses 40% of its entire energy consumption as fuel for transport.  Electricity generation is less than that.  Requiring a more than doubling of the available baseload power, for peak periods like winter, in order to transition from hydrocarbon vehicles to electric.


This is simply not true.

Please qualify your statements with actual figures.

Let me give you an example from the wiki article on UK energy use.

Quote
Energy use in the United Kingdom stood at 2,249 TWh (193.4 million tonnes of oil equivalent) in 2014.[1] This equates to energy consumption per capita of 34.82 MWh (3.00 tonnes of oil equivalent) compared to a 2010 world average of 21.54 MWh (1.85 tonnes of oil equivalent).[2] Demand for electricity in 2014 was 34.42GW on average[3] (301.7TWh over the year) coming from a total electricity generation of 335.0TWh

335 TWH  (our total electricity generation), out of 2,249 TWH, is 15% of the whole.  where 2,249 TWH == 193mtoe, our electricity generation == 29mtoe.

That was 2014.  Getting joined up stats is difficult but the next one is from 2016.  Our UK energy consumption has dropped to 192mtoe.

But here we learn, from the UK department of energy, that

Quote
Road transport consumption increased by 2.3 per cent from 2015 to 41,450 ktoe (41mtoe) in 2016

Total road transport energy consumption is 144% of our total electricity generation capacity.

When I say that our total capacity will have to more than double to replace all our road transport with electricity I am not making wild claims.

In fact, if you have another look at the wiki article, it tells us that:
Quote
In June 2013, the industry regulator Ofgem warned that the UK's energy sector faces "unprecedented challenges" and that "spare electricity power production capacity could fall to 2% by 2015, increasing the risk of blackouts". Proposed solutions "could include negotiating with major power users for them to reduce demand during peak times in return for payment".[44]

Our demand is still falling, but 2% does not cover the 144% required for EV.

This restriction by Ofgem  is not a stunt or a play for money.  It is a stark reality that we simply do NOT generate enough electricity to move to EV.

If, however, you have different figures to prove that what I say is simply not true, please present them.







« Last Edit: July 25, 2018, 11:21:55 AM by NeilT »
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gerontocrat

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Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
« Reply #845 on: July 25, 2018, 12:52:44 PM »

Our demand is still falling, but 2% does not cover the 144% required for EV.

This restriction by Ofgem  is not a stunt or a play for money.  It is a stark reality that we simply do NOT generate enough electricity to move to EV.

If, however, you have different figures to prove that what I say is simply not true, please present them.
The efficiency of electric motors is variable (see attached image) but approaches 100% at optimum load. An EV also switches off the motor when stopped or when braking (when it uses inertia to generate battery recharge).

An internal combustion engine in a vehicle has an efficiency anywhere between 25 and 50%(Wikipedia), or 20% (petrol) up to 40% (diesel) (Greencarreports)

Toyota claim a thermal efficiency of up to 38% for their new engine (but I bet this is on the bench at optimum conditions).

So an EV is likely to be at least twice as efficient in energy use as a diesel, and at least 3 times more efficient than a petrol engine, and 4 or 5 times more efficient than a petrol clunker.

So I think that we can use GrauerMausling's point that as regards energy use due to thermal efficiency ICEV's are rotten potatoes and and EV's are sweet oranges.

Using a factor of three, this reduces your 144% to about 50%, that increase required over 10?, 15?, 20? years. Still a big problem, but solvable with a Government willing to push investment in large and small scale PVs, onshore and offshore wind, and tariff structures to push EV charging to low-demand periods.

Also, with the increase in range of new EVs, daytime charging is much less necessary.

NEVEN - a sentence to prove that I am at least partly on-topic
There are also experiments being implemented to use batteries in EV cars snoozing (and plugged in) at home as a useful resource for providing power at peak times (and then recharging at low demand periods, rather like a good many HEP existing facilities).

ps:- Transport energy demand - split between cars, commercial vans and light trucks, and big trucks?
pps:- I wonder how the electric motors in EVs cope with continuously variable loading especially in urban driving?

I repeat - the technology is there - the energy demand increase is fixable, the problem is those who presume to govern us.  think Ofgem's words and actions are also a message to the UK Government - pull your finger out.

Sources:-
https://www.energy.gov/sites/prod/files/2014/04/f15/10097517.pdf
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Engine_efficiency

https://www.greencarreports.com/news/1091436_toyota-gasoline-engine-achieves-thermal-efficiency-of-38-percent
Quote
Toyota Gasoline Engine Achieves Thermal Efficiency Of 38 Percent
Antony Ingram
Most internal combustion engines are incredibly inefficient at turning fuel burned into usable energy. The efficiency by which they do so is measured in terms of "thermal efficiency", and most gasoline combustion engines average around 20 percent thermal efficiency. Diesels are typically higher--approaching 40 percent in some cases. Toyota has now developed a new gasoline engine which it claims has a maximum thermal efficiency of 38 percent--greater than any other mass-produced combustion engine. The new units, 1.0 and 1.3-liters in capacity, should enable 10-15 percent greater economy than their existing equivalents.

https://www.quora.com/How-energy-efficient-are-electric-motors-compared-to-combustion-engines
Quote
The direct answer to your question is that electric engines can be more than 90% efficient and even up to 98% efficient while combustion engines are 30 to 45% efficient. ... The biggest issue with electrical power vs combustion power or even hydrogen power is the medium that is used to hold energy in the vehicle.
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Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
« Reply #846 on: July 25, 2018, 02:03:28 PM »
OK I had a look,

A bit of digging and you get around 3.5miles per kwh with smaller EV's.  The latest small, cheap petrol engines are doing a combined cycle close to 60mpg for an average driver (I've seen 65 for constant and 62 for combined over multiple vehicles).  That works out to approximately a 58% saving.


I looked up the passenger v Freight and it was around 27mtoe.  So, with a 60% efficiency, that works out to an increase in the grid of 37% when full take up is in place.

This is without freight.  Assuming we have to add freight and we're up near 60% in increase.

Granted That is a lot less than doubling or tripling.  However we also have to factor in quit a heavy heating use, in winter, in standing traffic and that usage goes up a bit.

All of that is semantics though.  In summer we are, sort of, OK.  In winter we are heavily into gas, coal and power over the channel.  That is not an infrastructure you can build on to transition from hydrocarbon transport to EV.

As I posted, with only 160 thousand, or so, EV's, the charging is already having to be staggered.  So let us say we move that to 5 million EV's in 10 years.  This is more than staggering and we need huge investment in our power infrastructure.

We would need the 60TWH from Hinckley point C.  If you look at the national grid dashboard, it tells the sorry tale of renewables.

We are pulling our full capacity of electricity over from France, 44% of our power is being generated by gas, renewables are in the amber and it is almost all down to the fact that wind is producing a whole gigawatt, 3.2%, of our power, today.  There is no way we are not pushing out close to 100% solar with the current weather.

There needs to be a whole rethink over the entire grid if we are going to go EV.   Yes gigabattery banks to sequester wind and solar and balance the renewables landscape, but a radical rethink overall.

Batteries will not save us if we don't completely re-think the generating and distribution infrastructure.

That, as has been said, is the job of the government and they are failing miserably at it all over the world.
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Sigmetnow

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Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
« Reply #847 on: July 28, 2018, 02:19:32 PM »
China launches an electric car battery recycling standard as old batteries are expected to come back in high numbers
Quote
Battery recycling is expected to become an increasingly significant part of the electric vehicle supply chain in the near future.

In order to prepare for it, China is launching an electric car battery recycling standard as old batteries are expected to come back in high numbers as EV adoption ramps up in the country.

The Ministry of Industry and Information Technology has already pushed a standard for tracking the entire life cycle of batteries in electric vehicles, but it is now establishing a new scheme with automakers to recycle the batteries at the end of life. ...
https://electrek.co/2018/07/27/china-electric-car-battery-recycling-standard/
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Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
« Reply #848 on: July 28, 2018, 09:39:05 PM »
Just maybe a game changer in battery technology in development (or maybe not)....

https://www.theguardian.com/science/2018/jul/25/cheap-material-could-radically-improve-battery-charging-speed-say-scientists

Cheap material could radically improve battery charging speed, say scientists
Discovery could accelerate adoption of electric cars and solar energy, as well as helping to recharge your smartphone

Quote
The discovery of niobium tungsten oxides raises the possibility of developing a smart phone battery that could be fully charged in minutes.

A newly identified group of materials could help recharge batteries faster, raising the possibility of smartphones that charge fully in minutes and accelerating the adoption of major clean technologies like electric cars and solar energy, say researchers.

The speed at which a battery can be charged depends partly upon the rate at which positively charged particles, called lithium ions, can move towards a negatively charged electrode where they are then stored. A limiting factor in making “super” batteries that charge rapidly is the speed at which these lithium ions migrate, usually through ceramic materials.

One potential solution is to make everything much smaller, by making batteries with nanoparticles. But nanoparticles are expensive and tricky to make and so scientists have been searching for alternative materials to circumvent this problem.

Now, researchers at the University of Cambridge have identified a group of materials called niobium tungsten oxides through which lithium ions can move at astonishingly high rates, meaning much faster charging batteries.

“Niobium tungsten oxides are fundamentally different,” said Kent Griffith, first author on the study published in the journal Nature. First discovered in 1965, these materials have a rigid, open structure and have larger particle sizes than many other materials commonly used in batteries.

To measure the movement of the lithium ions through these unusual materials, the researchers used a technology similar to that found in an MRI scanner. They found that the lithium ions were moving through their test materials hundreds of times faster than they would through typical ceramic electrode materials.
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Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
« Reply #849 on: July 29, 2018, 01:51:01 AM »
U.S. northeast:
Green Mountain Power says its virtual power plant system saved it $500,000 in just one week this month as temperatures soared into the 90s.
Quote
“During that peak usage, peak hour, every megawatt that we can knock off is a real savings. That one hour is a very significant cost,” Josh Castonguay, vice president and lead innovation officer for Green Mountain Power, tells Granite Geek. Explaining how those savings came about is complex.

First, by tapping into its VPP system, it was able to avoid buying electricity from other power generators at peak prices. The cost of electricity from the grid is adjusted every 5 minutes. As demand goes up, so do the prices. But there is a second factor in play, one that people who only use electricity for routine domestic purposes are not aware of.

By drawing on its own resources, GMP was able to reduce its payments to the bulk transmission system for New England. That charge is based on usage during the hour of the year when the most electricity was being used. That hour for this year (so far) is between 5 pm and 6 pm on July 5, the time of day when Vermonters came home from work, realized “Oh my God, it’s hot in here!” and rushed to turn on their air conditioners.

By relying on all those Powerwall batteries, GMP skipped that peak hour, which will lower its electricity costs for the entire year. Total cost benefit to the company? $500,000, says Castonguay. “We’re always predicting the peak, looking at ISO-NE’s forecast information, looking at our own systems here. If tomorrow looks like there’s going to be a peak between 5 and 6 p.m., let’s look at running from 4 to 7 p.m. with batteries and other loads,” to lessen power purchases, he says.

“Right now, knocking down the peaks is the big advantage, but as we move ahead there will be more, things like regulation service, balancing solar intermittency,” he said. “You can use them like a generator, like a load, like a voltage source – you can do a lot with battery storage that we haven’t had flexibility to do in the past.” ...
https://cleantechnica.com/2018/07/27/network-of-tesla-powerwall-batteries-saves-green-mountain-power-500000-during-heat-wave/
People who say it cannot be done should not interrupt those who are doing it.