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Author Topic: Stupid Questions :o  (Read 284170 times)

Tigertown

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Re: Stupid Questions :o
« Reply #1250 on: October 11, 2017, 05:20:41 PM »
Yes, but the H2O vapor in the clouds prevents long wave radiation from escaping from the surface and reflects it back downward.

Daniel B.

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Re: Stupid Questions :o
« Reply #1251 on: October 11, 2017, 07:26:43 PM »
Yes, but the H2O vapor in the clouds prevents long wave radiation from escaping from the surface and reflects it back downward.
Yes, but how much radiation is trying to escape during the cold, dark winter months?

Tigertown

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Re: Stupid Questions :o
« Reply #1252 on: October 11, 2017, 08:54:51 PM »
There are tremendous amounts of heat energy stored in the oceans and carried to the Arctic via currents.

Dharma Rupa

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Re: Stupid Questions :o
« Reply #1253 on: October 11, 2017, 11:30:46 PM »
Yes, but the H2O vapor in the clouds prevents long wave radiation from escaping from the surface and reflects it back downward.
Yes, but how much radiation is trying to escape during the cold, dark winter months?

Before the surface freezes there is a lot, and even after that quite a bit.  The question is how much the added water vapor prevents from escaping.

When the Arctic was essentially a desert the dry air let almost all the heat escape, but now it is much less of a desert and the question is:  How much heat does the added humidity, even without clouds, prevent from escaping?  (preferably as a comparison with the desert state)

Dharma Rupa

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Re: Stupid Questions :o
« Reply #1254 on: October 11, 2017, 11:37:28 PM »
There are tremendous amounts of heat energy stored in the oceans and carried to the Arctic via currents.

Yes, and it used to be that most of that was trapped under a sheet of ice.  Probably most of it is still trapped under the ice, but there has been a change.   How much of a change?  How can we see how much of a change?

A-Team has been showing us some really nice, if a bit hard to interpret, graphics of current flux -- but I don't have anything to compare them to.  No history.


Iceismylife

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Re: Stupid Questions :o
« Reply #1255 on: October 12, 2017, 07:12:53 PM »
Yes, but the H2O vapor in the clouds prevents long wave radiation from escaping from the surface and reflects it back downward.
Yes, but how much radiation is trying to escape during the cold, dark winter months?

Before the surface freezes there is a lot, and even after that quite a bit.  The question is how much the added water vapor prevents from escaping.

When the Arctic was essentially a desert the dry air let almost all the heat escape, but now it is much less of a desert and the question is:  How much heat does the added humidity, even without clouds, prevent from escaping?  (preferably as a comparison with the desert state)
If you want a comparison look at cash county utah vs salt lake valy.  One hits 0 the other hits -40 F. The great salt lake is open water year round. Cash county doesn't have open water.

Dharma Rupa

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Re: Stupid Questions :o
« Reply #1256 on: October 12, 2017, 10:43:04 PM »
Yes, but the H2O vapor in the clouds prevents long wave radiation from escaping from the surface and reflects it back downward.
Yes, but how much radiation is trying to escape during the cold, dark winter months?

Before the surface freezes there is a lot, and even after that quite a bit.  The question is how much the added water vapor prevents from escaping.

When the Arctic was essentially a desert the dry air let almost all the heat escape, but now it is much less of a desert and the question is:  How much heat does the added humidity, even without clouds, prevent from escaping?  (preferably as a comparison with the desert state)
If you want a comparison look at cash county utah vs salt lake valy.  One hits 0 the other hits -40 F. The great salt lake is open water year round. Cash county doesn't have open water.

That's what I think is going on, but I don't know what data we have which quantifies it and the changes.  My original question was basically "how important are clouds at night?"  I'm sure they are important, but I think the open air dew point is more important -- and I don't know how to demonstrate that.

I do know that the midwinter temperature even in the extreme far North has been unusually warm the last two winters (and might be so again this winter).  Can that area still be called desert?



Shared Humanity

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Re: Stupid Questions :o
« Reply #1257 on: October 13, 2017, 12:06:18 AM »
Yes, but the H2O vapor in the clouds prevents long wave radiation from escaping from the surface and reflects it back downward.
Yes, but how much radiation is trying to escape during the cold, dark winter months?

All of it?  ;)

Dharma Rupa

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Re: Stupid Questions :o
« Reply #1258 on: October 13, 2017, 02:56:15 AM »
Yes, but the H2O vapor in the clouds prevents long wave radiation from escaping from the surface and reflects it back downward.
Yes, but how much radiation is trying to escape during the cold, dark winter months?

All of it?  ;)

I could say something about cozy little photons happily bouncing about 500 meters below the surface....but NVM. 8)

sidd

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Re: Stupid Questions :o
« Reply #1259 on: October 13, 2017, 05:44:25 AM »
(This entire discussion might need it's own thread called "effect of cloud and water vapor in arctic and austral winter")

Let me construct a cartoon picture. I ignore many things, but bear with me.

To first approximation, earth is in energy balance (to +/- 1 watt/sq. meter )
Shortwave solar input is on the order of 1kilowatt/square meter

Most of the heat goes in around the equator. Most of it is lost from the currently dark pole, north pole in northern winter, south pole in southern.

so a kilowatt/sq. m. or so got to go out from the dark pole.

The oceans are like a big capacitor in the middle of the input heat and output heat.

Now put a cloud cap on one dark pole every winter, the heat cant get out in winter from that pole.  Several things happen.

1) Winters get hugely hotter in that hemisphere.
2) Heinrich events as grounded ice melts.
3) Ocean circulation reorganizes to export much more heat through unclouded pole.

We may be seeing 1) but  not yet 2) and 3)
Timescale for 3) is, of course, the timescale of the bipolar seesaw, a few millennia, so we wouldn't expect that right away.

Of course, none of this  says that water vapor/clouds are actually increasing in arctic winter. But it is something i wish someone were watching.

(This all began with a discussion with a paleontologist and a zoologist about to how one could have alligators in the arctic. Cloudy, rainy winters seemed to be their view.)

sidd
« Last Edit: October 13, 2017, 06:00:12 AM by sidd »

Tigertown

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Re: Stupid Questions :o
« Reply #1260 on: October 13, 2017, 12:34:20 PM »
Scripps Institute of Oceanography does a lot of cloud research. Not sure about this in specific, but I would think if anybody has covered the matter it would be them.

Daniel B.

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Re: Stupid Questions :o
« Reply #1261 on: October 13, 2017, 03:50:02 PM »
Yes, but the H2O vapor in the clouds prevents long wave radiation from escaping from the surface and reflects it back downward.
Yes, but how much radiation is trying to escape during the cold, dark winter months?

Before the surface freezes there is a lot, and even after that quite a bit.  The question is how much the added water vapor prevents from escaping.

When the Arctic was essentially a desert the dry air let almost all the heat escape, but now it is much less of a desert and the question is:  How much heat does the added humidity, even without clouds, prevent from escaping?  (preferably as a comparison with the desert state)

You bring up a good point; before the surface freezes, a significant amount of radiation escapes.  How much excess heat is lost through the open ocean, and could this be self-regulating. 

Iceismylife

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Re: Stupid Questions :o
« Reply #1262 on: October 18, 2017, 06:35:49 PM »
...
 My original question was basically "how important are clouds at night?"  I'm sure they are important, but I think the open air dew point is more important -- and I don't know how to demonstrate that.
clouds vs. none is good for an apparent 20deg F temperature. On the U of U campus at night in the winters in the 1980's.

Data, Logan Utah Vs. Salt Lake City UT  Over night low cloud cover and dew point info. Logan is farther north and higher altitude so it will be colder, but the day, night swing and dew point swing should be educational to look at.

If Logan got colder at night than Salt Lake did then it would support your argument.  Logan is dryer than Salt lake is because of the lack of open water.  But largely the same climate and temp in the summer time except that morning temps are cooler in Logan.

Dew point, cloud cover, and temperature data with a long history of good data.  Have fun!!!

I do know that the midwinter temperature even in the extreme far North has been unusually warm the last two winters (and might be so again this winter).  Can that area still be called desert?
Good question.  If we have Ice rebound this year as I think we will then maybe not.

Dharma Rupa

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Re: Stupid Questions :o
« Reply #1263 on: October 18, 2017, 11:35:09 PM »
I do know that the midwinter temperature even in the extreme far North has been unusually warm the last two winters (and might be so again this winter).  Can that area still be called desert?
Good question.  If we have Ice rebound this year as I think we will then maybe not.

Watching DMI 80N very closely this winter.  Not sure they is really much else worth paying attention to.

Coffee Drinker

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Re: Stupid Questions :o
« Reply #1264 on: October 22, 2017, 03:21:07 AM »
Wonder what the mid to long term effects of those repeated freezing (<-5C or even -10C) wind storms are over open arctic waters. This must mix the water and provide substantial cooling to the water column including deeper layers? Isn't this much more effective than the cooling through a 1m thick ice sheet no matter how cold it is over the ice?


Forest Dweller

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Re: Stupid Questions :o
« Reply #1265 on: November 22, 2017, 07:12:55 PM »
Am i stupid/blind  ;D or is there really no topic on reefs???
Seems rather important but looking through "consequences" and trying the search yielded next to nothing.
I'm digging up some pretty interesting stuff and could start a fresh topic...maybe throw in the kelp forest situation as well?
Wat say ye?

Neven

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Re: Stupid Questions :o
« Reply #1266 on: November 22, 2017, 11:32:21 PM »
I can't seem to find any either, so feel free to open a new thread!  :)
Il faut cultiver notre jardin

Forest Dweller

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Re: Stupid Questions :o
« Reply #1267 on: November 24, 2017, 08:11:04 PM »
Ok Neven, will do.