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Tigertown

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Re: Stupid Questions :o
« Reply #1250 on: October 11, 2017, 05:20:41 PM »
Yes, but the H2O vapor in the clouds prevents long wave radiation from escaping from the surface and reflects it back downward.

Daniel B.

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Re: Stupid Questions :o
« Reply #1251 on: October 11, 2017, 07:26:43 PM »
Yes, but the H2O vapor in the clouds prevents long wave radiation from escaping from the surface and reflects it back downward.
Yes, but how much radiation is trying to escape during the cold, dark winter months?

Tigertown

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Re: Stupid Questions :o
« Reply #1252 on: October 11, 2017, 08:54:51 PM »
There are tremendous amounts of heat energy stored in the oceans and carried to the Arctic via currents.

Dharma Rupa

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Re: Stupid Questions :o
« Reply #1253 on: October 11, 2017, 11:30:46 PM »
Yes, but the H2O vapor in the clouds prevents long wave radiation from escaping from the surface and reflects it back downward.
Yes, but how much radiation is trying to escape during the cold, dark winter months?

Before the surface freezes there is a lot, and even after that quite a bit.  The question is how much the added water vapor prevents from escaping.

When the Arctic was essentially a desert the dry air let almost all the heat escape, but now it is much less of a desert and the question is:  How much heat does the added humidity, even without clouds, prevent from escaping?  (preferably as a comparison with the desert state)

Dharma Rupa

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Re: Stupid Questions :o
« Reply #1254 on: October 11, 2017, 11:37:28 PM »
There are tremendous amounts of heat energy stored in the oceans and carried to the Arctic via currents.

Yes, and it used to be that most of that was trapped under a sheet of ice.  Probably most of it is still trapped under the ice, but there has been a change.   How much of a change?  How can we see how much of a change?

A-Team has been showing us some really nice, if a bit hard to interpret, graphics of current flux -- but I don't have anything to compare them to.  No history.


Iceismylife

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Re: Stupid Questions :o
« Reply #1255 on: October 12, 2017, 07:12:53 PM »
Yes, but the H2O vapor in the clouds prevents long wave radiation from escaping from the surface and reflects it back downward.
Yes, but how much radiation is trying to escape during the cold, dark winter months?

Before the surface freezes there is a lot, and even after that quite a bit.  The question is how much the added water vapor prevents from escaping.

When the Arctic was essentially a desert the dry air let almost all the heat escape, but now it is much less of a desert and the question is:  How much heat does the added humidity, even without clouds, prevent from escaping?  (preferably as a comparison with the desert state)
If you want a comparison look at cash county utah vs salt lake valy.  One hits 0 the other hits -40 F. The great salt lake is open water year round. Cash county doesn't have open water.

Dharma Rupa

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Re: Stupid Questions :o
« Reply #1256 on: October 12, 2017, 10:43:04 PM »
Yes, but the H2O vapor in the clouds prevents long wave radiation from escaping from the surface and reflects it back downward.
Yes, but how much radiation is trying to escape during the cold, dark winter months?

Before the surface freezes there is a lot, and even after that quite a bit.  The question is how much the added water vapor prevents from escaping.

When the Arctic was essentially a desert the dry air let almost all the heat escape, but now it is much less of a desert and the question is:  How much heat does the added humidity, even without clouds, prevent from escaping?  (preferably as a comparison with the desert state)
If you want a comparison look at cash county utah vs salt lake valy.  One hits 0 the other hits -40 F. The great salt lake is open water year round. Cash county doesn't have open water.

That's what I think is going on, but I don't know what data we have which quantifies it and the changes.  My original question was basically "how important are clouds at night?"  I'm sure they are important, but I think the open air dew point is more important -- and I don't know how to demonstrate that.

I do know that the midwinter temperature even in the extreme far North has been unusually warm the last two winters (and might be so again this winter).  Can that area still be called desert?



Shared Humanity

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Re: Stupid Questions :o
« Reply #1257 on: October 13, 2017, 12:06:18 AM »
Yes, but the H2O vapor in the clouds prevents long wave radiation from escaping from the surface and reflects it back downward.
Yes, but how much radiation is trying to escape during the cold, dark winter months?

All of it?  ;)

Dharma Rupa

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Re: Stupid Questions :o
« Reply #1258 on: October 13, 2017, 02:56:15 AM »
Yes, but the H2O vapor in the clouds prevents long wave radiation from escaping from the surface and reflects it back downward.
Yes, but how much radiation is trying to escape during the cold, dark winter months?

All of it?  ;)

I could say something about cozy little photons happily bouncing about 500 meters below the surface....but NVM. 8)

sidd

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Re: Stupid Questions :o
« Reply #1259 on: October 13, 2017, 05:44:25 AM »
(This entire discussion might need it's own thread called "effect of cloud and water vapor in arctic and austral winter")

Let me construct a cartoon picture. I ignore many things, but bear with me.

To first approximation, earth is in energy balance (to +/- 1 watt/sq. meter )
Shortwave solar input is on the order of 1kilowatt/square meter

Most of the heat goes in around the equator. Most of it is lost from the currently dark pole, north pole in northern winter, south pole in southern.

so a kilowatt/sq. m. or so got to go out from the dark pole.

The oceans are like a big capacitor in the middle of the input heat and output heat.

Now put a cloud cap on one dark pole every winter, the heat cant get out in winter from that pole.  Several things happen.

1) Winters get hugely hotter in that hemisphere.
2) Heinrich events as grounded ice melts.
3) Ocean circulation reorganizes to export much more heat through unclouded pole.

We may be seeing 1) but  not yet 2) and 3)
Timescale for 3) is, of course, the timescale of the bipolar seesaw, a few millennia, so we wouldn't expect that right away.

Of course, none of this  says that water vapor/clouds are actually increasing in arctic winter. But it is something i wish someone were watching.

(This all began with a discussion with a paleontologist and a zoologist about to how one could have alligators in the arctic. Cloudy, rainy winters seemed to be their view.)

sidd
« Last Edit: October 13, 2017, 06:00:12 AM by sidd »

Tigertown

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Re: Stupid Questions :o
« Reply #1260 on: October 13, 2017, 12:34:20 PM »
Scripps Institute of Oceanography does a lot of cloud research. Not sure about this in specific, but I would think if anybody has covered the matter it would be them.

Daniel B.

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Re: Stupid Questions :o
« Reply #1261 on: October 13, 2017, 03:50:02 PM »
Yes, but the H2O vapor in the clouds prevents long wave radiation from escaping from the surface and reflects it back downward.
Yes, but how much radiation is trying to escape during the cold, dark winter months?

Before the surface freezes there is a lot, and even after that quite a bit.  The question is how much the added water vapor prevents from escaping.

When the Arctic was essentially a desert the dry air let almost all the heat escape, but now it is much less of a desert and the question is:  How much heat does the added humidity, even without clouds, prevent from escaping?  (preferably as a comparison with the desert state)

You bring up a good point; before the surface freezes, a significant amount of radiation escapes.  How much excess heat is lost through the open ocean, and could this be self-regulating. 

Iceismylife

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Re: Stupid Questions :o
« Reply #1262 on: October 18, 2017, 06:35:49 PM »
...
 My original question was basically "how important are clouds at night?"  I'm sure they are important, but I think the open air dew point is more important -- and I don't know how to demonstrate that.
clouds vs. none is good for an apparent 20deg F temperature. On the U of U campus at night in the winters in the 1980's.

Data, Logan Utah Vs. Salt Lake City UT  Over night low cloud cover and dew point info. Logan is farther north and higher altitude so it will be colder, but the day, night swing and dew point swing should be educational to look at.

If Logan got colder at night than Salt Lake did then it would support your argument.  Logan is dryer than Salt lake is because of the lack of open water.  But largely the same climate and temp in the summer time except that morning temps are cooler in Logan.

Dew point, cloud cover, and temperature data with a long history of good data.  Have fun!!!

Quote
I do know that the midwinter temperature even in the extreme far North has been unusually warm the last two winters (and might be so again this winter).  Can that area still be called desert?
Good question.  If we have Ice rebound this year as I think we will then maybe not.

Dharma Rupa

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Re: Stupid Questions :o
« Reply #1263 on: October 18, 2017, 11:35:09 PM »
Quote
I do know that the midwinter temperature even in the extreme far North has been unusually warm the last two winters (and might be so again this winter).  Can that area still be called desert?
Good question.  If we have Ice rebound this year as I think we will then maybe not.

Watching DMI 80N very closely this winter.  Not sure they is really much else worth paying attention to.

Coffee Drinker

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Re: Stupid Questions :o
« Reply #1264 on: October 22, 2017, 03:21:07 AM »
Wonder what the mid to long term effects of those repeated freezing (<-5C or even -10C) wind storms are over open arctic waters. This must mix the water and provide substantial cooling to the water column including deeper layers? Isn't this much more effective than the cooling through a 1m thick ice sheet no matter how cold it is over the ice?


Forest Dweller

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Re: Stupid Questions :o
« Reply #1265 on: November 22, 2017, 07:12:55 PM »
Am i stupid/blind  ;D or is there really no topic on reefs???
Seems rather important but looking through "consequences" and trying the search yielded next to nothing.
I'm digging up some pretty interesting stuff and could start a fresh topic...maybe throw in the kelp forest situation as well?
Wat say ye?

Neven

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Re: Stupid Questions :o
« Reply #1266 on: November 22, 2017, 11:32:21 PM »
I can't seem to find any either, so feel free to open a new thread!  :)
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Re: Stupid Questions :o
« Reply #1267 on: November 24, 2017, 08:11:04 PM »
Ok Neven, will do.

Layman

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Re: Stupid Questions :o
« Reply #1268 on: December 28, 2017, 12:05:22 PM »
Hey guys,

I just thought of a Stupid Question, and thought maybe someone might like to answer it.

I was thinking, if the Gulf Stream stops and there's a mini ice age in the North, will that slow down the loss of arctic ice for a time?

gerontocrat

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Re: Stupid Questions :o
« Reply #1269 on: December 28, 2017, 12:53:05 PM »
Hey guys,

I just thought of a Stupid Question, and thought maybe someone might like to answer it.

I was thinking, if the Gulf Stream stops and there's a mini ice age in the North, will that slow down the loss of arctic ice for a time?
Some say yes, and this will mean the tropics will get the extra heat instead, e.g.Florida and the Gulf of Mexico.
Others say if the Arctic on the Atlantic side freezes up then the heat has to go somewhere and that could mean the Antarctic.
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Layman

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Re: Stupid Questions :o
« Reply #1270 on: December 28, 2017, 01:12:37 PM »
Hey guys,

I just thought of a Stupid Question, and thought maybe someone might like to answer it.

I was thinking, if the Gulf Stream stops and there's a mini ice age in the North, will that slow down the loss of arctic ice for a time?
Some say yes, and this will mean the tropics will get the extra heat instead, e.g.Florida and the Gulf of Mexico.
Others say if the Arctic on the Atlantic side freezes up then the heat has to go somewhere and that could mean the Antarctic.

I see, thanks.

Maybe the Gulf of Mexico will turn into a giant anoxic cesspit?

gerontocrat

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Re: Stupid Questions :o
« Reply #1271 on: December 28, 2017, 02:15:10 PM »
Hey guys,

I just thought of a Stupid Question, and thought maybe someone might like to answer it.

I was thinking, if the Gulf Stream stops and there's a mini ice age in the North, will that slow down the loss of arctic ice for a time?
Some say yes, and this will mean the tropics will get the extra heat instead, e.g.Florida and the Gulf of Mexico.
Others say if the Arctic on the Atlantic side freezes up then the heat has to go somewhere and that could mean the Antarctic.

I see, thanks.

Maybe the Gulf of Mexico will turn into a giant anoxic cesspit?
Sometimes the Gulf of Mexico is a giant anoxic cesspit already.

By coincidence:- articles and links in the Guardian. When you've found out all about it can you tell us?

https://www.theguardian.com/environment/climate-consensus-97-per-cent/2017/dec/26/us-government-climate-report-looks-at-how-the-oceans-are-buffering-climate-change

Quote
US government climate report looks at how the oceans are buffering climate change
A key chapter of the US Global Change Research Program Report deals with how the oceans are being impacted by human carbon pollution

The oceans are important because they act as a buffer; that is, they absorb much of the effects of greenhouse gases. In fact, the oceans absorb a lot of human carbon pollution. This is a big help for us because without the oceans, the climate would change much faster.

But in a certain way, the oceans are hurting us too. Since the oceans absorb so much of our carbon pollution and the resulting heat (93% of the extra heat), they turn a short-term problem into a long-term problem.

There is a really important flow of ocean waters called the Atlantic Meridional Overturning Circulation. It is a stream of water that passes from the warm tropics up toward Europe. Then the water gets cold and dense, sinks, and flows back towards the equator. This current is responsible for the warm wet weather in England, for example (compared with other locations with the same latitude). The report discusses a potential weakening of this current. If the current were to weaken (or stop altogether), there would be major effects to the weather in Europe and North America.


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Layman

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Re: Stupid Questions :o
« Reply #1272 on: December 28, 2017, 03:03:58 PM »

Maybe the Gulf of Mexico will turn into a giant anoxic cesspit?

Sometimes the Gulf of Mexico is a giant anoxic cesspit already.

By coincidence:- articles and links in the Guardian. When you've found out all about it can you tell us?

https://www.theguardian.com/environment/climate-consensus-97-per-cent/2017/dec/26/us-government-climate-report-looks-at-how-the-oceans-are-buffering-climate-change


I can copy and paste the conclusions from the article if you like?

I don't have time to read all that science stuff!!  ;)


crandles

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Re: Stupid Questions :o
« Reply #1273 on: December 28, 2017, 04:00:31 PM »
Just pedantry really but
While the sun keeps shining and the earth keeps spinning, the gulf stream will keep going being mainly wind driven.

What is more debated is the Atlantic Meridional Overturning Circulation.

Layman

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Re: Stupid Questions :o
« Reply #1274 on: December 28, 2017, 04:19:32 PM »
Oh I read that term in the Article!

Do we just call it AMOC?

It's a slightly la neenya summer this year but it's still pretty uncomfortable. Keeping me awake at night with this damned humidity!

mitch

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Re: Stupid Questions :o
« Reply #1275 on: December 28, 2017, 04:40:31 PM »
The Gulf Stream is a western boundary current for the North Atlantic Gyre.  The gyre is driven by westerlies along the Polar Front, and trade winds down near the equator.  At the last glacial maximum, the westerlies blew much more in an E-W direction, so the boundary between the subtropics was roughly along the 45N parallel.  It moves more northerly as AMOC removes subArctic waters from the surface in the GIN and Labrador seas. 

Dharma Rupa

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Re: Stupid Questions :o
« Reply #1276 on: December 28, 2017, 06:51:45 PM »
Just pedantry really but
While the sun keeps shining and the earth keeps spinning, the gulf stream will keep going being mainly wind driven.

I look at that and think about the predicted dying Sun expanding as a Red Giant out to (and past) the orbit of Earth...

(Yes, the Sum will be shining, and at least for awhile the Earth will be spinning.)

Hyperion

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Re: Stupid Questions :o
« Reply #1277 on: December 28, 2017, 09:03:36 PM »
Oh I read that term in the Article!

Do we just call it AMOC?

It's a slightly la neenya summer this year but it's still pretty uncomfortable. Keeping me awake at night with this damned humidity!

Do you perhaps mean a SUPER La Nina. Look how much heat has been pushed from the tropical oceans to the western subtropical oceanic regions. and the abnormally cold surges conquering the tropical oceans from the east.

I think that AMOC may be one of those mythological terms from the mists of time past. Now we have warm salty water coming from the tropics, freshening as it melts the poles from below, and exiting on the surface in nth Pacific, Atlantic and big ring around Antarctica thats surging up the west coasts of Australia, sth America, Africa. AMUC if you like. Atlantic/Antarctic-Murderidional-Underturning-Current.
Just hope it doesn't go full Canfield with tropical evaporation subducting the water to the bottom near the equator at 40C+, getting heated by geothermal heat on the ocean floor, and then rising at subtropical lattitudes at over 50C and hard Anoxic states.
You are welcome to give us New Zealanders back our humidity if you don't like it. Has not rained more than a couple of dribbles here for over two months, and we are sick of your ozzie drought conditions and want to give THEM back!


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gerontocrat

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Re: Stupid Questions :o
« Reply #1278 on: December 28, 2017, 09:13:06 PM »
Oh I read that term in the Article!

Do we just call it AMOC?

It's a slightly la neenya summer this year but it's still pretty uncomfortable. Keeping me awake at night with this damned humidity!
The AMOC is but a part of The Great Ocean Conveyor, which reaches as far as tha Indian Ocean. If the AMOC stops, so will the conveyor. That will impact the Antarctic.

The more you learn the more you realise how much you /  we / the scientists do not know.

If Europe and N. Americe get cold the tropics will get hotter.
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Layman

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Re: Stupid Questions :o
« Reply #1279 on: December 30, 2017, 07:33:18 AM »


Do you perhaps mean a SUPER La Nina. Look how much heat has been pushed from the tropical oceans to the western subtropical oceanic regions. and the abnormally cold surges conquering the tropical oceans from the east.

I think that AMOC may be one of those mythological terms from the mists of time past. Now we have warm salty water coming from the tropics, freshening as it melts the poles from below, and exiting on the surface in nth Pacific, Atlantic and big ring around Antarctica thats surging up the west coasts of Australia, sth America, Africa. AMUC if you like. Atlantic/Antarctic-Murderidional-Underturning-Current.
Just hope it doesn't go full Canfield with tropical evaporation subducting the water to the bottom near the equator at 40C+, getting heated by geothermal heat on the ocean floor, and then rising at subtropical lattitudes at over 50C and hard Anoxic states.
You are welcome to give us New Zealanders back our humidity if you don't like it. Has not rained more than a couple of dribbles here for over two months, and we are sick of your ozzie drought conditions and want to give THEM back!


https://earth.nullschool.net/#current/ocean/primary/waves/anim=off/overlay=sea_surface_temp_anomaly/equirectangular=-144.36,-0.69,174

Thanks, that is interesting. I've been looking at Tasmania and Dunedin as candidates for migration but they are both getting hit by the heat it seems. Still cooler than than the mainland though.

To me it looks like the warm water in north western Australia is linked to the band around Tas and NZ, but how would that work?

emil

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Re: Stupid Questions :o
« Reply #1280 on: January 01, 2018, 06:02:39 PM »
According to piomas data the extent and volume follow eachother pretty well and volume is actually up compare to previous years. But despite that people are keep saying the volume has been slaughter this year (2017)? I wonder what data they could possible base that statement on? Ofc i have ask them, but havnt got any good answer. Maybe I do not get any good answer from them because it is simple not true?

I do not ask for a satelite pics of the sea ice, i ask for data.

http://psc.apl.uw.edu/wordpress/wp-content/uploads/schweiger/ice_volume/BPIOMASIceVolumeAnomalyCurrentV2.1_CY.png

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Re: Stupid Questions :o
« Reply #1281 on: January 02, 2018, 09:05:57 AM »
Hi Emil,

I can't speak for others, but it might be worth noting that PIOMAS volume was at a record low for the first half of 2017 as the graph shows. So I think it is not as simple as saying that volume is up from last year. I suppose it depends on which part of 2017 you're talking about!

Daniel B.

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Re: Stupid Questions :o
« Reply #1282 on: January 02, 2018, 07:38:58 PM »
Hi Emil,

I can't speak for others, but it might be worth noting that PIOMAS volume was at a record low for the first half of 2017 as the graph shows. So I think it is not as simple as saying that volume is up from last year. I suppose it depends on which part of 2017 you're talking about!

True, it was low to start 2017, but finished the year higher.


jai mitchell

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Re: Stupid Questions :o
« Reply #1283 on: January 04, 2018, 04:42:09 AM »
I just noticed this playing with woods for trees http://www.woodfortrees.org/plot/uah6/mean:6/from:2015/plot/rss/mean:6/from:2015/plot/gistemp/mean:6/from:2015/plot/hadcrut4gl/mean:6/from:2015

I was reviewing an old John Christy lecture to remember the bald-faced lies that they are all starting to swallow with a good helping of crow and I wanted to compare the revised RSS values with the UAH (fake) data.

Then I noticed this.

Does anyone have a good idea why the divergence between RSS and UAH vs GISSTemp and HADCRUT4?  How is it possible that BOTH satellite MSU are showing warming but the surface temp data sets are showing cooling?!??!!!!!!????!!!!!!

This is especially disconcerting since the RSS and UAH have spectacularly low coverage of of the Arctic.

Thoughts?

I could theorize of a sudden and new feature in the upper atmosphere that is causing lower stratospheric warming and cooling the earth but then people would start accusing me of some kind of geoengineering conspiracy. . .  :o

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jai mitchell

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Re: Stupid Questions :o
« Reply #1284 on: January 04, 2018, 05:18:09 AM »
follow up

it is also interesting to note that ENSO did this at the exact same time.
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Neven

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Re: Stupid Questions :o
« Reply #1285 on: January 04, 2018, 09:17:09 AM »
RSS and UAH are sensitive to changes in ENSO, right? More pronounced warming/cooling and a lag, etc.
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Pmt111500

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Re: Stupid Questions :o
« Reply #1286 on: January 04, 2018, 03:49:09 PM »
I just noticed this playing with woods for trees http://www.woodfortrees.org/plot/uah6/mean:6/from:2015/plot/rss/mean:6/from:2015/plot/gistemp/mean:6/from:2015/plot/hadcrut4gl/mean:6/from:2015

I was reviewing an old John Christy lecture to remember the bald-faced lies that they are all starting to swallow with a good helping of crow and I wanted to compare the revised RSS values with the UAH (fake) data.

Then I noticed this.

Does anyone have a good idea why the divergence between RSS and UAH vs GISSTemp and HADCRUT4?  How is it possible that BOTH satellite MSU are showing warming but the surface temp data sets are showing cooling?!??!!!!!!????!!!!!!

This is especially disconcerting since the RSS and UAH have spectacularly low coverage of of the Arctic.

Thoughts?

I could theorize of a sudden and new feature in the upper atmosphere that is causing lower stratospheric warming and cooling the earth but then people would start accusing me of some kind of geoengineering conspiracy. . .  :o

Looks about normal reaction to large El Nino to me. That's the CO2 effect next winter or something similar.
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jai mitchell

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Re: Stupid Questions :o
« Reply #1287 on: January 04, 2018, 04:42:01 PM »
RSS and UAH are sensitive to changes in ENSO, right? More pronounced warming/cooling and a lag, etc.

note 2015/2016 El Nino no divergence
the last 9 months was not a significant change to El Nino
There is no analogy to this even in the historic record.

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Pmt111500

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Re: Stupid Questions :o
« Reply #1288 on: January 04, 2018, 05:56:50 PM »
RSS and UAH are sensitive to changes in ENSO, right? More pronounced warming/cooling and a lag, etc.

note 2015/2016 El Nino no divergence
the last 9 months was not a significant change to El Nino
There is no analogy to this even in the historic record.

Oops, remembered wrongly, it happens. Propose to move this out of the 'Stupid Questions'-thread, since this is something that probably needs an answer, and a stupid answer like mine above won't clearly do.  8) ??? ::) :o
A quantity relates to a quantum like camel's back relates to camel's _______ ? (back, vertebra, vertebral tendon, spinal disc, paralysis)

Neven

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Re: Stupid Questions :o
« Reply #1289 on: January 04, 2018, 06:10:43 PM »
Oops, remembered wrongly, it happens. Propose to move this out of the 'Stupid Questions'-thread, since this is something that probably needs an answer, and a stupid answer like mine above won't clearly do.  8) ??? ::) :o

Yes, here is a good thread for that.
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emil

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Re: Stupid Questions :o
« Reply #1290 on: January 10, 2018, 12:17:01 AM »
Hi Emil,

I can't speak for others, but it might be worth noting that PIOMAS volume was at a record low for the first half of 2017 as the graph shows. So I think it is not as simple as saying that volume is up from last year. I suppose it depends on which part of 2017 you're talking about!

The summer melting mostly around september.

gerontocrat

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Re: Stupid Questions :o
« Reply #1291 on: January 21, 2018, 07:17:39 PM »
Two stupid questions for the price of one:-

Qu 1. Is it an accident of history that "Stupid Questions" is in "Arctic Sea Ice" ?, because:-

Qu2. It has been a bit cold recently in the UK. When putting on layer number 5 of clothing, I thought "How come Gorillas, Monkeys and Chimpanzees, though living in tropical Africa, have kept their lovely warm fur coats, while my naked body has to cover itself with numerous coverings ?" Evolution is crap.

So any genetecists, evolutionists etc out there with a decent answer ?
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Re: Stupid Questions :o
« Reply #1292 on: January 21, 2018, 09:18:06 PM »
Qu2. It has been a bit cold recently in the UK. When putting on layer number 5 of clothing, I thought "How come Gorillas, Monkeys and Chimpanzees, though living in tropical Africa, have kept their lovely warm fur coats, while my naked body has to cover itself with numerous coverings ?" Evolution is crap.

I'm pretty sure we are hairless because we cover ourselves with crap -- or to be slightly more correct because we do so when we are cold, and remove it when we are hot.  Brains were an amazing invention -- not good for long-term survival, but great for a small band of misfits.

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Re: Stupid Questions :o
« Reply #1293 on: January 21, 2018, 09:18:36 PM »
With no related scientific degree, my guess is: we were furry creatures, moving into colder climates where our fur was not enough so we started to put on "clothes", ie. furs of other animals. This turned out to be so successful, that we no longer needed our own fur, since we could put on as much extra fur as and when we needed. So we discarded our fur as unnecessary. Whatever is not needed for survival is gotten rid of by evolution because it takes energy to keep something we do not need.

Does this quantify as "stupid answer to stupid question"? 

Dharma Rupa

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Re: Stupid Questions :o
« Reply #1294 on: January 21, 2018, 09:27:09 PM »
...moving into colder climates where our fur was not enough...
That doesn't explain people in the tropics, but not wanting the fur at all there does.  So, some of us moving to areas cold enough that we needed covering would explain the people in the tropics losing the hair, and general migration would explain us Northerners accepting the change.  (This is a bit simplistic since fur is protection from both cold and heat.  But there is no doubt that being able to cover and uncover as necessary is a great invention.)

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Re: Stupid Questions :o
« Reply #1295 on: January 21, 2018, 10:05:15 PM »
Two stupid questions for the price of one:-

Qu 1. Is it an accident of history that "Stupid Questions" is in "Arctic Sea Ice" ?, because:-

Qu2. It has been a bit cold recently in the UK. When putting on layer number 5 of clothing, I thought "How come Gorillas, Monkeys and Chimpanzees, though living in tropical Africa, have kept their lovely warm fur coats, while my naked body has to cover itself with numerous coverings ?" Evolution is crap.

So any genetecists, evolutionists etc out there with a decent answer ?

AQ1: a mystery ;)

AQ2: Thank you for oportunity to bring "The Selfish Ape: The Tribe of Suit" documentary back into focus. One theory about "naked-monkey" from 23:00.

Human Habitat Index

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Re: Stupid Questions :o
« Reply #1296 on: January 22, 2018, 01:21:12 AM »
An alternative explanation of human evolution is the Aquatic Ape theory.

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Re: Stupid Questions :o
« Reply #1297 on: January 22, 2018, 03:36:12 AM »
AQ1: As a Stupid Question about Stupid Question, these cancel each other out and therefore do not require an answer.

AQ2: Could it be that really hairy men and women were determined by prospective mates to not be attractive?

(Puts self in corner for timeout.)

Sebastian Jones

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Re: Stupid Questions :o
« Reply #1298 on: January 22, 2018, 06:25:42 AM »
Furlessness arose as a consequence of our ancestors "noticing" that eating meat is much more efficient than eating fruits and vegetables, and that doing so allowed us to colonize a much wider variety of ecological niches.
Proto-humans were crap at catching larger prey- an antelope is way faster than a hominid. What our forbears did evolve to be able to do was to keep on running at at a moderately high intensity at a time of day when all other animals are lying in the shade- at least they are in Equatorial Africa.
To do this well, furlessness was an advantage, as was whole body sweating, being erect and retaining hair on our heads, and thus these traits were selected for.
It is much more complicated than this, but this is a forum for discussion rather than an academic journal....
Contemporary hunter gatherers still utilize this technique. Where I live, there are still Elders who grew up running down caribou....which, if you ever seen a caribou move across the landscape is almost unbelievable.
Despite this advantage, I still envy my huskies with their double coat and ability to metabolize fat directly into heat....at least, I do envy them in winter!

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Re: Stupid Questions :o
« Reply #1299 on: January 22, 2018, 06:46:10 AM »
Here is a nice summation of my above posted screed, which includes references....
http://www.bbc.com/earth/story/20160801-our-weird-lack-of-hair-may-be-the-key-to-our-success