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F.Tnioli

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Re: The 2016 melting season
« Reply #1350 on: May 18, 2016, 12:24:07 PM »
According to their "preliminary" F18 data, the NSIDC has the arctic ice extent under 12 million km2.  According to my calculations we are now 3.42 s.d. below the mean.  Is this a new record?
It is. New absolute record, not for just present date, - as far as i can see.

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Re: The 2016 melting season
« Reply #1351 on: May 18, 2016, 12:31:55 PM »
One of these years is not like the others ...

Which one - 2012 or 2016?

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Re: The 2016 melting season
« Reply #1352 on: May 18, 2016, 12:57:16 PM »
I rate the effect of river discharge on melting as almost none for the arctic sea ice. Far more significant is ice breaking away from the shore due to winds.

I am in sympathy with Tealight that the timing of the opening up a dark, energy absorbing polynya is important for the seasonal loss of ice in the Beaufort.

But Mackenzie river discharge has significant effects on ice loss, including when a polynya has already developed. See this paper (mentioned previously on the forum):
Effects of Mackenzie River discharge and bathymetry on sea ice in the Beaufort Sea
SV Nghiem, DK Hall, IG Rigor, P Li… - Geophysical Research …, 2014
http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1002/2013GL058956/full

For a perspective on the 1990s see also
R.W. Macdonald, E.C. Carmack, F.A. McLaughlin 1999 Connections among ice, runoff and atmospheric forcing in the Beaufort Gyre GEOPHYSICAL RESEARCH LETTERS, VOL. 26, 2223-2226,
http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1029/1999GL900508/pdf

Comparison of the two papers shows the different interactions of Mackenzie river water with increasing ice loss in the Beaufort sea, from direct melting of ice, to indirect melting of ice at a greater distance through warming of surface sea water.
Mackenzie river water discharge will continue to have effects on Beaufort sea ice loss through the summer, through the less direct effects of promoting more rapid warming of a freshened surface water layer.  As sea ice is likely to continue to migrate into the Beaufort from further east throughout the season, this effect will continue to be important.

Comments on the ice-loss effects around Siberian river mouths might be considered against this literature.

F.Tnioli

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Re: The 2016 melting season
« Reply #1353 on: May 18, 2016, 02:12:58 PM »
Franz-Josef land two days ago looks like lots of open water, slush and thin ice. The image is for 80...81.15 northern latitude, click it for (much) higher resolution. Same date 2012, low (below 50%) ice concentration was also the case there. But not that much in 2015. So now it's kinda dejavu...

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Tealight

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Re: The 2016 melting season
« Reply #1354 on: May 18, 2016, 02:48:56 PM »
But Mackenzie river discharge has significant effects on ice loss, including when a polynya has already developed. See this paper (mentioned previously on the forum):
Effects of Mackenzie River discharge and bathymetry on sea ice in the Beaufort Sea
SV Nghiem, DK Hall, IG Rigor, P Li… - Geophysical Research …, 2014
http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1002/2013GL058956/full

I read the paper, but found nowhere a breakdown of the temperature increase. Did I miss something? How much is due to the river discharge, how much due atmospheric forcing and due to the insolation. Their two dates 14th June to 5th July is exactly during peak insolation and in 20 days it can warm the water just by this.

The introduction of the second paper is amazing:  ;D
Quote
The loss of Arctic Ocean ice stands out as a pivotal
change that would affect the global heat balance [Curry
el al., 1995] and have unthinkable consequences for arctic
inhabitants

In 1995 they had no idea how rapidly ice can retreat. So we are already long past unthinkable consequences.

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Re: The 2016 melting season
« Reply #1355 on: May 18, 2016, 03:06:38 PM »
But Mackenzie river discharge has significant effects on ice loss, including when a polynya has already developed. See this paper (mentioned previously on the forum):
Effects of Mackenzie River discharge and bathymetry on sea ice in the Beaufort Sea
SV Nghiem, DK Hall, IG Rigor, P Li… - Geophysical Research …, 2014
http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1002/2013GL058956/full

I read the paper, but found nowhere a breakdown of the temperature increase. Did I miss something? How much is due to the river discharge, how much due atmospheric forcing and due to the insolation. Their two dates 14th June to 5th July is exactly during peak insolation and in 20 days it can warm the water just by this.

The introduction of the second paper is amazing:  ;D
Quote
The loss of Arctic Ocean ice stands out as a pivotal
change that would affect the global heat balance [Curry
el al., 1995] and have unthinkable consequences for arctic
inhabitants

In 1995 they had no idea how rapidly ice can retreat. So we are already long past unthinkable consequences.
Thankfully Judith Curry's decadal scale prediction is either no trend in sea ice minima or an increase.

F.Tnioli

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Re: The 2016 melting season
« Reply #1356 on: May 18, 2016, 03:40:49 PM »
...
In 1995 they had no idea how rapidly ice can retreat. So we are already long past unthinkable consequences.
Your telepathic and omni-presense ability is at fail, this time.  ;D Some of "them" had exactly such an idea even long before 1995. Heck, even US congress heard that idea LONG before 1995, as you can see - 17 July 1957 is good enough, i hope. :P And nope, it's not a single anomaly - the talks are ever-present since the moment scientists understood causes of the process (of Arctic sea ice retreat). Here's another example of such - 18 May 1972.

P.S. I'd say, it's best to remember that some humans tend to have all sorts or ideas. Even (sadly) completely idiotic ones, if to mention that for the sake of completeness of the thought. That area "graph" there, i mean - you know?  :o
« Last Edit: May 18, 2016, 04:02:35 PM by F.Tnioli »
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Timothy Astin

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Re: The 2016 melting season
« Reply #1357 on: May 18, 2016, 04:13:58 PM »
But Mackenzie river discharge has significant effects on ice loss, including when a polynya has already developed. See this paper (mentioned previously on the forum):
Effects of Mackenzie River discharge and bathymetry on sea ice in the Beaufort Sea
SV Nghiem, DK Hall, IG Rigor, P Li… - Geophysical Research …, 2014
http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1002/2013GL058956/full

I read the paper, but found nowhere a breakdown of the temperature increase. Did I miss something? How much is due to the river discharge, how much due atmospheric forcing and due to the insolation. Their two dates 14th June to 5th July is exactly during peak insolation and in 20 days it can warm the water just by this.

Respectfully, you have missed something. In Section 4 of the paper they provide evidence of a 6degC average change in surface water temperature from 14 June to 5 July 2012. They also give spatial evidence that the greatest warming is closest to the river mouths of the Mackenzie, and warmth is distributed through the Beaufort sea in water eddies. They also compare to the much smaller increases in T in the Canada Basin well away from river mouths (but with the implication of similar insolation).

While I agree with you that they do not give quantitative estimates of the balance of heating from a) insolation, and b) river water influx, the qualitative balance giving significance to river water influx is there.

Thus, they do give estimates of the river discharge over that 3 week period
"The Mackenzie discharge typically peaks in June and remains high in July [Woo and Thorne, 2003]. For a peak flow of 33,300 m3/s [Environment Canada, 2013], the volume of the total discharge over the 3 week period is equivalent to a layer thickness of 0.19 m of warm waters across the entire open water area of 316,000 km2 on 5 July 2012."

So perhaps someone would like to estimate the observed warming to surface water expected over 20 days from insolation alone as a comparison with the 6degC change observed? That would help us evaluate their interpretation of the observational data.

There is also an interesting discussion of the likely effects of continental rivers on the Siberian side.

F.Tnioli

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Re: The 2016 melting season
« Reply #1358 on: May 18, 2016, 04:52:50 PM »
...
I read the paper, but found nowhere a breakdown of the temperature increase. Did I miss something? How much is due to the river discharge, how much due atmospheric forcing and due to the insolation. Their two dates 14th June to 5th July is exactly during peak insolation and in 20 days it can warm the water just by this.

Respectfully, you have missed something. In Section 4 of the paper they provide evidence of a 6degC average change in surface water temperature from 14 June to 5 July 2012. They also give spatial evidence that the greatest warming is closest to the river mouths of the Mackenzie, and warmth is distributed through the Beaufort sea in water eddies. They also compare to the much smaller increases in T in the Canada Basin well away from river mouths (but with the implication of similar insolation).

While I agree with you that they do not give quantitative estimates of the balance of heating from a) insolation, and b) river water influx, the qualitative balance giving significance to river water influx is there.

Thus, they do give estimates of the river discharge over that 3 week period
"The Mackenzie discharge typically peaks in June and remains high in July [Woo and Thorne, 2003]. For a peak flow of 33,300 m3/s [Environment Canada, 2013], the volume of the total discharge over the 3 week period is equivalent to a layer thickness of 0.19 m of warm waters across the entire open water area of 316,000 km2 on 5 July 2012."

So perhaps someone would like to estimate the observed warming to surface water expected over 20 days from insolation alone as a comparison with the 6degC change observed? That would help us evaluate their interpretation of the observational data.

There is also an interesting discussion of the likely effects of continental rivers on the Siberian side.
20 days of insolation upon _water_ should produce many times higher warming, even based on entirely napkin-kind of consideration: we know insolation 24/7 to "mostly melt ponds" area is able to melt dozens centimeters of ice thickness, while on the other hand, 0.19 meters of "warmer by 6 degrees celcius" water is roughly an equivalent to 6K * 0.19m * 4.187 / 334 = 0.014m (where 4.187 kJ/kg*K - water specific heat; 334 kJ/kg is latent heat of melting 1 kg of ice).

I.e., this means that all that "19 centimeters thick layer of 6°C warmer water" is only good enough to melt 1.4 centimeters of ice if all "extra heat" of that "warmer water" would be spent to melt extra ice. Which obviously not the case - some extra will be lost to evaporation, some more will directly radiate as IR, some more will be mixed into deeper waters. So it's more like 1 centimeter or even less.

Peak insolation in Arctic June is nearly 500 W/m2, in other words 0.5kJ/s*m2. Being generous, let's say only half of that is absorbed by water, and only 5 days out of 20 are sunny. Then 0.25*60*60*24*5 = 108000 kJ/m2 during those "20 days" from insolation. Very roughly, 1 m2 of 1-meter-thick ice is 1000kg (for simplicity), so this is 108kJ/kg if all that heat would be melting ice. Pretty much enough to melt 108/334=0.32 meters of ice thickness, that insolation heat alone.

That all said, to add  to the discussion, - personally i see direct effect of Arctic rivers as indeed small, but in the same time i can fathom how it hits the ice exactly before maximum insolation period and thus produces lots of positive feedback in doing so; by itself, those "warmer river waters" melt very little (in terms of whole Arctic, i mean), but that "very little" then absorbs much sunlight while without river waters it would not (absorb much) still being much higher albedo (ice), and then whole thing cascades outwards.

It's sort of a primer on a gun's ammo: by itself, it can't propel the bullet, but it ignites the powder which can. Same with river waters (not always, but quite often) - rather large places which could remain frozen for much longer start increasingly fast melting if large river creates initial area with low albedo (obviously, the closer to the river's delta, the higher influence river waters will have locally).
« Last Edit: May 18, 2016, 05:32:32 PM by F.Tnioli »
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NeilT

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Re: The 2016 melting season
« Reply #1359 on: May 18, 2016, 05:17:41 PM »
Just to chime in here, fresh water run off into the sea is always above 0c (isn't it?).  So the influx of huge volumes of fresh melt water on a sea which is still sitting around -1 is going to be a pretty huge heat transport event isn't it?

Most melt water is somewhere around 5c.  Although it could feasibly be 0c to 3c.

In the volumes of melt water we are talking about that's still a pretty big heat transport is it not?  Also the longer that water sits on land, which is heating with snow loss, the warmer it is going to be before it ends up in the sea.

Just an observation.  I'm sure someone cleverer than me could calculate the heat transport event from the volume and the temperature of the water that runs off into the sea.
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Re: The 2016 melting season
« Reply #1360 on: May 18, 2016, 05:44:15 PM »
Plus the mixing flood surges bring ( if we are concerned about the shallows), plus the organics they bring with them ( to feed algal blooms further lowering albedo), plus the banging of floe into floe that such currents must cause ( mechanical degradation?)......
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F.Tnioli

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Re: The 2016 melting season
« Reply #1361 on: May 18, 2016, 06:30:06 PM »
Plus the mixing flood surges bring ( if we are concerned about the shallows), plus the organics they bring with them ( to feed algal blooms further lowering albedo), plus the banging of floe into floe that such currents must cause ( mechanical degradation?)......
Presumably all those are lower order of magnitude importance in compare to all the heat transported by water itself. But yes, sure. Those too. And many other processes. The thing is not napkin-kind, reality is rather complex, but we gotta simplify in practice. The only reason those and other effects are rarely mentioned, IMHO - is their relative insignificance in compare to huge power of the Sun, part of which is accumulated in melt waters collected from big parts of Earth largest land masses and then delivered through rather narrow river deltas into polar seas of the North.

That said, what do we know. If, say, good biologist comes in and explains how nanometer-scale biota near big river deltas is expected to cause some highly important escalating feedback in terms of ice melt starting pretty much right now, - frankly, i won't be too surprised... We still know quite little about Earth as a complete system. Quirks are well possible.
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Re: The 2016 melting season
« Reply #1362 on: May 18, 2016, 06:34:36 PM »
The models show no reprieve. 
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Re: The 2016 melting season
« Reply #1363 on: May 18, 2016, 06:35:29 PM »
The albedo drop along the Russian coast has been horrific. 9-day change shows catastrophe underway. Smoke plumes from Siberia and China continue to be entrained into the Arctic and now it would appear plain for all to see that the soot is being deposited across the ice.

Click to animate.

Sorry for the what may possibly be a stupid question, but are you sure the first image is not clouds?
There are a few clouds, but not many over the Russian side.

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Re: The 2016 melting season
« Reply #1364 on: May 18, 2016, 06:47:45 PM »
The albedo drop along the Russian coast has been horrific. 9-day change shows catastrophe underway. Smoke plumes from Siberia and China continue to be entrained into the Arctic and now it would appear plain for all to see that the soot is being deposited across the ice.

Click to animate.

Sorry for the what may possibly be a stupid question, but are you sure the first image is not clouds?
There are a few clouds, but not many over the Russian side.
Regardless of the clouds, looking at worldview, the drop in albedo is already significant in Chukchi as well, and I bet will be soon very extended in Beaufort sea.
The high pressure conditions in the Pacific side come with a bit of wind, and may hurt the ice very much this week. CCR anticipates clear skies too.
PS. The butterfly is still 'out there' ;-)

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Re: The 2016 melting season
« Reply #1365 on: May 18, 2016, 07:07:59 PM »
Temperatures at Beaufort "night" are going to be really low however, reaching near -10C, for the next several days. One can be fooled if looking at 2m temperature maps that correspond always to midday at the Pacific side (this happens with the ASIG forecast graphs, no critizism intended, just to be aware).
Browsing at different hours the picture is different. For example some areas of ESS and later Chukchi are going to be practically 24h above zero continuously!

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Re: The 2016 melting season
« Reply #1366 on: May 18, 2016, 07:28:12 PM »
Your telepathic and omni-presense ability is at fail, this time.  ;D Some of "them" had exactly such an idea even long before 1995. Heck, even US congress heard that idea LONG before 1995, as you can see - 17 July 1957 is good enough, i hope. :P And nope, it's not a single anomaly - the talks are ever-present since the moment scientists understood causes of the process (of Arctic sea ice retreat). Here's another example of such - 18 May 1972.

OK I acknowledge that some scientists predicted an ice free arctic, but my statement was based on the 2007 melting season which surprised most established scientists. Since then the arctic never returned to pre 2007 conditions.

On the topic: We just don't know enough about the conditions between 14 June and 5 July 2012. My guess is that the river's discharge mostly replaced existing water by either flowing over the top ocean layer or pushing it further out.

Indication for warming solely from atmospheric conditions and insolation gives a small area between Victoria Island and the mainland. The water has similar temperature without any river nearby.
Worldview link: http://go.nasa.gov/1R8PCwy

It is also worth zooming out and see the same warm water pattern on the west cost of Bank Island.


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Re: The 2016 melting season
« Reply #1367 on: May 18, 2016, 07:59:46 PM »
Could we have a free-for-all debating sticky thread? The ability to argue seperate points is valuable for some people, as is of course the more data oriented nature of this one. The Arctic melting season provokes both kinds of response.

Hi all posters,

As Neven, who usually moderates the forum, isn't there at the moment, I'm going to apply this request and create such an "Open Thread" (as RealClimate does). I'll probably move next out-of-topic posts there, but of course it would be much better if members write there directly.

Thank you for your attention.
« Last Edit: May 19, 2016, 12:12:09 AM by DungeonMaster »
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Re: The 2016 melting season
« Reply #1368 on: May 18, 2016, 08:29:12 PM »
The snow cover is pretty low (am I off topic...gloups ;))
The heat transfer is via the rivers but also winds, and humidity.
What is the relative humidity importance in the melting ? (2nd image, light blue is near 100 %)
https://earth.nullschool.net/#current/wind/surface/level/overlay=relative_humidity/orthographic=-318.62,95.18,830

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Re: The 2016 melting season
« Reply #1369 on: May 18, 2016, 10:19:41 PM »
Presumably all those are lower order of magnitude importance in compare to all the heat transported by water itself.

Note that the Bering Strait current is about 1 Sv, which is about the same as the flow from *all* the rivers in the world combined.  link

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Re: The 2016 melting season
« Reply #1370 on: May 18, 2016, 10:54:01 PM »
Tonight I just made time to have a look at Labrador Sea/Baffin Bay and the Kara Sea.

In both, ice condition is getting worse. Firm surface melt around Baffin Island. The North Waters-polynia has grown some 20K km2. It will soon attach to open water in Lancaster Sound and along Greenland's west coast.
In the Kara Sea, Western winds are catching strenght. Almost no sea ice left in the Pechora Sea. The Kara Strait is open. Extent losses will grow over there through the next few days.

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Re: The 2016 melting season
« Reply #1371 on: May 18, 2016, 10:58:52 PM »
Tonight I just made time to have a look at Labrador Sea/Baffin Bay and the Kara Sea.

In both, ice condition is getting worse. Firm surface melt around Baffin Island. The North Waters-polynia has grown some 20K km2. It will soon attach to open water in Lancaster Sound and along Greenland's west coast.
In the Kara Sea, Western winds are catching strenght. Almost no sea ice left in the Pechora Sea. The Kara Strait is open. Extent losses will grow over there through the next few days.
It should also be noted that in addition to the smoke from Siberian wildfires settling over the Arctic, the Canadian wildfire plumes have been entrained into a LP that is now over Hudson Bay and Quebec.

The difference over the past two days is dramatic in terms of melt under this blanket of soot and smog.

Per Robert Scribbler Canada's wildfires have burned something like 24X normal for date and I'd imagine Siberia is at a similar pace. That has not occurred without impact and now multiple basins are being affected at a very early stage in the melt season.

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Re: The 2016 melting season
« Reply #1372 on: May 18, 2016, 11:58:51 PM »
where in Siberia are those wildfires? Can they be located in satellite images?

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Re: The 2016 melting season
« Reply #1373 on: May 19, 2016, 12:10:00 AM »
Not a satellite image, but I think the CO in Nullschool might be a very good indication of where the fires are raging.
https://earth.nullschool.net/#current/chem/surface/level/overlay=cosc/orthographic=-229.92,39.20,410/loc=115.637,55.034
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Re: The 2016 melting season
« Reply #1374 on: May 19, 2016, 12:10:23 AM »
where in Siberia are those wildfires? Can they be located in satellite images?

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Re: The 2016 melting season
« Reply #1375 on: May 19, 2016, 12:10:56 AM »
where in Siberia are those wildfires? Can they be located in satellite images?

The linked May 10, 2016 Scribbler article is entitled: "Massive Wildfires Erupt in Northeast China as Lake Baikal Blazes Ignite"

https://robertscribbler.com/2016/05/10/massive-wildfires-erupt-in-northeast-china-as-lake-baikal-blazes-ignite/

Extract: "An extreme heatwave and drought in East Asia is now sparking extraordinarily large wildfires in mostly unsettled regions of Northeast China near the Russian border."
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Re: The 2016 melting season
« Reply #1376 on: May 19, 2016, 01:22:30 AM »
Large forest fires can actually cool the earth by reducing the amount of insolation that reaches the surface.  So it's not clear if these fires will act as a positive or negative feedback on the 2016 melting season. From Fire Situation in Russia, (IFFN No. 24 - April 2001, p. 41-59
Quote
"One of the most severe fire years in northern Eurasia was in 1915 when about 14 million ha of closed forests were completely burned within a forest area of 160 million ha in Siberia, and about 600 million ha was affected by smoke. Deep (up to several meters) peat fires continued until winter. Only 65 % of normal solar radiation was registered in parts of the country in August, and crops matured 15-20 days later than usual. "
As wikipaedia says "He [Georgy Golitsyn] was also able to show that severe forest fires in Siberia in 1915 had caused global cooling.

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Re: The 2016 melting season
« Reply #1377 on: May 19, 2016, 01:35:09 AM »
For fire information, I suggest you go to the Wildfires thread.  Some discussion on the affects fire and smoke have on the Arctic, of course, may belong here.
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Re: The 2016 melting season
« Reply #1378 on: May 19, 2016, 05:26:07 AM »
Quote
Archi on #1373 Not a satellite image the CO in Nullschool might be a very good indication of where the fires are raging.https://earth.nullschool.net/#current/chem/surface/level/overlay=cosc/orthographic=-229.92,39.20,410/loc=115.637,55.034
Right. Geos-5 sounds like a satellite but is not -- it's an atmospheric model for surface carbon monoxide based on wildfire thermal emissions detected from space by Modis Terra and a biomass-burning algorithm. Two infrared sensors were affected by an orbital maneuver; they switched over to Aqua for a while back in late February.

However things are back on track and vetted by many ground station observations. The modeled levels around the Siberian fires are colossal, about 2000x a typical reading in the California central valley.

Is the CO plume a good proxy for the fine particulate plume? Probably so-so; in this instance, there is no movement towards the pole for either the Siberian or Ft McMurray fires. Note the disgusting levels of CO in Asia and the Boston NY corridor not related to forest fires.

Quote
NASA's EOS-Terra spacecraft entered safe mode on February 18, 2016, during an inclination adjustment maneuver. This caused the MODIS instrument to enter safe mode, with the nadir and space-view doors closed. When the Terra MODIS transitioned back to science mode on February 24, 2016, the operating temperatures for the SWIR and LWIR (Short-wave Infrared and Longwave infrared) focal planes have not yet stabilized. As a consequence, some data products have been severely degraded. This includes the "Fire Radiative Power" fields that are used by GEOS-5 to compute emissions of CO, CO2, and carbonaceous aerosols by biomass burning.
Geos-5 = Goddard Earth Observing System Model, Version 5
https://www.metabunk.org/debunked-carbon-monoxide-explosion-on-us-west-coast-feb-26th-terra-satellite-glitch.t7351/
http://gmao.gsfc.nasa.gov/news/geos_system_news/2016/incorrect_CO_concentrations.php

seaicesailor

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Re: The 2016 melting season
« Reply #1379 on: May 19, 2016, 09:25:00 AM »
Browsing images at the ASIG, a lot of insolation is supposed to come over the Pacific side in general for the next five days. Starting day after tomorrow strong antycyclonic wind and associated drift over Beaufort for at least three days. Temps generally higher than average.

Yet the weather guys are strangely quiet . . .
(except for you Werther : - )

LRC1962

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Re: The 2016 melting season
« Reply #1380 on: May 19, 2016, 09:35:24 AM »
Large forest fires can actually cool the earth by reducing the amount of insolation that reaches the surface.  So it's not clear if these fires will act as a positive or negative feedback on the 2016 melting season. From Fire Situation in Russia, (IFFN No. 24 - April 2001, p. 41-59
Quote
"One of the most severe fire years in northern Eurasia was in 1915 when about 14 million ha of closed forests were completely burned within a forest area of 160 million ha in Siberia, and about 600 million ha was affected by smoke. Deep (up to several meters) peat fires continued until winter. Only 65 % of normal solar radiation was registered in parts of the country in August, and crops matured 15-20 days later than usual. "
As wikipaedia says "He [Georgy Golitsyn] was also able to show that severe forest fires in Siberia in 1915 had caused global cooling.
Short term maybe, but long term can cause amplifying feedbacks such as dark snow, raised CO2 levels, depending on weather patterns desertification and in the Arctic melting of permafrost if deep peat fires. In almost every cooling event since the 1850's temperature smoothed graphs show up very little of any cooling event had occurred and in fact in most cases a correcting hot event has followed. In other words, it is only temporary.
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abbottisgone

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Re: The 2016 melting season
« Reply #1381 on: May 19, 2016, 09:45:31 AM »
Large forest fires can actually cool the earth by reducing the amount of insolation that reaches the surface.  So it's not clear if these fires will act as a positive or negative feedback on the 2016 melting season. From Fire Situation in Russia, (IFFN No. 24 - April 2001, p. 41-59
Quote
"One of the most severe fire years in northern Eurasia was in 1915 when about 14 million ha of closed forests were completely burned within a forest area of 160 million ha in Siberia, and about 600 million ha was affected by smoke. Deep (up to several meters) peat fires continued until winter. Only 65 % of normal solar radiation was registered in parts of the country in August, and crops matured 15-20 days later than usual. "
As wikipaedia says "He [Georgy Golitsyn] was also able to show that severe forest fires in Siberia in 1915 had caused global cooling.
Short term maybe, but long term can cause amplifying feedbacks such as dark snow, raised CO2 levels, depending on weather patterns desertification and in the Arctic melting of permafrost if deep peat fires. In almost every cooling event since the 1850's temperature smoothed graphs show up very little of any cooling event had occurred and in fact in most cases a correcting hot event has followed. In other words, it is only temporary.
An eye opening comment.

Tasmania in the Southern Hemisphere is also getting some attention as to the fire potential it can breed.

Canada is obviously a lot lot bigger and then America just below it apparently has a quite a bit of wooded land to offer... and then!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
..
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S.Pansa

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Re: The 2016 melting season
« Reply #1382 on: May 19, 2016, 10:16:03 AM »
Maybe a bit off-topic but it may help us to have an even closer look at the weather up North.

CLIMATE REANALYZER.org has a new high-res weather map. Cool (warm) stuff, amazing detail!

F.Tnioli

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Re: The 2016 melting season
« Reply #1383 on: May 19, 2016, 10:18:15 AM »
Presumably all those are lower order of magnitude importance in compare to all the heat transported by water itself.

Note that the Bering Strait current is about 1 Sv, which is about the same as the flow from *all* the rivers in the world combined.  link
Does it bring as much heat as average river melt water does, per m3? And most importantly, does it not exist without river(s) "triggering" it to happen? No doubt rivers change mixing and ocean currents a _little_, but i doubt it can be as much as Bering Strait current happening only when rivers "allow" it to be. Which is why i think your point is irrelevant to the above discussion.
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Re: The 2016 melting season
« Reply #1384 on: May 19, 2016, 10:51:34 AM »
S.Pansa I only get Hi-Res USA when I follow your link - do you have link for Hi-Res CCI North Pole please?

F.Tnioli

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Re: The 2016 melting season
« Reply #1385 on: May 19, 2016, 10:52:28 AM »
Large forest fires can actually cool the earth by reducing the amount of insolation that reaches the surface.  So it's not clear if these fires will act as a positive or negative feedback on the 2016 melting season. From Fire Situation in Russia, (IFFN No. 24 - April 2001, p. 41-59
Quote
"One of the most severe fire years in northern Eurasia was in 1915 when about 14 million ha of closed forests were completely burned within a forest area of 160 million ha in Siberia, and about 600 million ha was affected by smoke. Deep (up to several meters) peat fires continued until winter. Only 65 % of normal solar radiation was registered in parts of the country in August, and crops matured 15-20 days later than usual. "
As wikipaedia says "He [Georgy Golitsyn] was also able to show that severe forest fires in Siberia in 1915 had caused global cooling.
Global cooling it indeed well expected to be (i mean, from many types of particulate, akin to volcano ash causing global cooling, which clearly happens), but let's not forget that global albedo is some 0.3...0.35 (with many types of terrain being even lower - such as some ~0.1 for forests, for example), while sea ice is some 0.5...0.7, and fresh snow is some 0.8...0.9. So in terms of Arctic melt season specifically, the effect of soot dropping surface albedo is much more important than "globally".

"Only 65% solar radiation" you mentioned was, as you noted, only in "parts" of the country. From what i know, it's extremely difficult to believe this figure would be global average. Not even country-average.

Crops maturing 15...20 days later than usual is in my opinion much more related to global row of relatively cold years of 1908...1914, as visible here.

Last but not least, the effect of "soot causes more/faster sea ice melting" is rather well understood and is under detailed research. For example, NASA's James Hansen's work to quantify and model this effect, as mentioned here.

So, personally, i think that for the world as a whole, "lots more soot from forest fires" may well end up as noticeable cooling, yes, at least in certain circumstances (basically we "want" very huge areas and very intense fire, creating most strong convection from a large area, in order for much soot to reach above tropopause, which is when i guess it'd do indeed some serious cooling in terms of surface temperature) - but in the same time, it would be more ice melt and generally faster and warmer summer ice melt season for the Arctic.
« Last Edit: May 19, 2016, 11:10:40 AM by F.Tnioli »
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Meirion

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Re: The 2016 melting season
« Reply #1386 on: May 19, 2016, 10:53:06 AM »
OK S.Pansa I've found it http://cci-reanalyzer.org/wxmaps/#ARC-LEA thanks

DavidR

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Re: The 2016 melting season
« Reply #1387 on: May 19, 2016, 10:54:54 AM »
Large forest fires can actually cool the earth by reducing the amount of insolation that reaches the surface.  So it's not clear if these fires will act as a positive or negative feedback on the 2016 melting season. From Fire Situation in Russia, (IFFN No. 24 - April 2001, p. 41-59
Quote
"One of the most severe fire years in northern Eurasia was in 1915 when about 14 million ha of closed forests were completely burned within a forest area of 160 million ha in Siberia, and about 600 million ha was affected by smoke. Deep (up to several meters) peat fires continued until winter. Only 65 % of normal solar radiation was registered in parts of the country in August, and crops matured 15-20 days later than usual. "
As wikipaedia says "He [Georgy Golitsyn] was also able to show that severe forest fires in Siberia in 1915 had caused global cooling.
While this is an interesting story, 1915 was acording to  GISS the second hottest year between 1880 and 1925.  1916 was cooler but not  exceptionally so and one would expect the effect  of summer fires to have dissapated by then.
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JayW

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Re: The 2016 melting season
« Reply #1388 on: May 19, 2016, 11:39:04 AM »
Quote
Archi on #1373 Not a satellite image the CO in Nullschool might be a very good indication of where the fires are raging.https://earth.nullschool.net/#current/chem/surface/level/overlay=cosc/orthographic=-229.92,39.20,410/loc=115.637,55.034
Right. Geos-5 sounds like a satellite but is not -- it's an atmospheric model for surface carbon monoxide based on wildfire thermal emissions detected from space by Modis Terra and a biomass-burning algorithm. Two infrared sensors were affected by an orbital maneuver; they switched over to Aqua for a while back in late February.

However things are back on track and vetted by many ground station observations. The modeled levels around the Siberian fires are colossal, about 2000x a typical reading in the California central valley.

Is the CO plume a good proxy for the fine particulate plume? Probably so-so; in this instance, there is no movement towards the pole for either the Siberian or Ft McMurray fires. Note the disgusting levels of CO in Asia and the Boston NY corridor not related to forest fires.

Quote
NASA's EOS-Terra spacecraft entered safe mode on February 18, 2016, during an inclination adjustment maneuver. This caused the MODIS instrument to enter safe mode, with the nadir and space-view doors closed. When the Terra MODIS transitioned back to science mode on February 24, 2016, the operating temperatures for the SWIR and LWIR (Short-wave Infrared and Longwave infrared) focal planes have not yet stabilized. As a consequence, some data products have been severely degraded. This includes the "Fire Radiative Power" fields that are used by GEOS-5 to compute emissions of CO, CO2, and carbonaceous aerosols by biomass burning.
Geos-5 = Goddard Earth Observing System Model, Version 5
https://www.metabunk.org/debunked-carbon-monoxide-explosion-on-us-west-coast-feb-26th-terra-satellite-glitch.t7351/
http://gmao.gsfc.nasa.gov/news/geos_system_news/2016/incorrect_CO_concentrations.php

The NNVL site from NOAA has some nice features, here's the daily aerosol optical thickness for May 17.  I'm not really equipped to do much with the data, but I thought others might be interested and get more out of the site.

http://www.nnvl.noaa.gov/view/globaldata.html#AERO
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oren

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Re: The 2016 melting season
« Reply #1389 on: May 19, 2016, 11:46:40 AM »

F.Tnioli

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Re: The 2016 melting season
« Reply #1390 on: May 19, 2016, 12:21:11 PM »
Meanwhile, DMI volume graph stalls (click for higher resolution):



One can see significant "slow down" in 2014 (blue) and especially 2015 (light-blue) on this graph, as well - though during those years it happened when volume was higher than now. After that "late May gasp", the line drops down without further delays (i mean previous years).

Seeing this "little May pause" happening earlier this year, i wonder if the following drop would also start earlier. If so, then earlier start should also make the main drop of the season to be steeper than during previous years - this is general tendency i noticed long ago (that earlier start of the "main melt phaze" tends to produce faster average-per-day melt for the main part of the season).
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Frivolousz21

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Re: The 2016 melting season
« Reply #1391 on: May 19, 2016, 12:39:12 PM »
Meanwhile, DMI volume graph stalls (click for higher resolution):



One can see significant "slow down" in 2014 (blue) and especially 2015 (light-blue) on this graph, as well - though during those years it happened when volume was higher than now. After that "late May gasp", the line drops down without further delays (i mean previous years).

Seeing this "little May pause" happening earlier this year, i wonder if the following drop would also start earlier. If so, then earlier start should also make the main drop of the season to be steeper than during previous years - this is general tendency i noticed long ago (that earlier start of the "main melt phaze" tends to produce faster average-per-day melt for the main part of the season).


That graphic is embarrassing.

Its not even close
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F.Tnioli

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Re: The 2016 melting season
« Reply #1392 on: May 19, 2016, 12:45:24 PM »
That graphic is embarrassing.

Its not even close
Danish bias. Was discussed in quite some detail in 2015 melt season topic, iirc. Sure it's not even close, it never has been, they use different assumptions. But dynamics should still reflect what's going on.

IMHO, that is. I may well be wrong.
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seaicesailor

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Re: The 2016 melting season
« Reply #1393 on: May 19, 2016, 02:45:44 PM »
That graphic is embarrassing.

Its not even close
Danish bias. Was discussed in quite some detail in 2015 melt season topic, iirc. Sure it's not even close, it never has been, they use different assumptions. But dynamics should still reflect what's going on.

IMHO, that is. I may well be wrong.

F.Tnioli, I know it is a recurring topic, but it is beyond question that this model is wrong to the extreme. To start with (and almost to finish with it), over the years we could see it contradicts buoys observations by 1,2 meters ... then Cryosat, topaz,... and later their supposedly 4m-thick ice melts as if it was ice cream.
Navy model too, however they provide much more, such as the nice drift forecast maps that are really useful, and they have the decency of not outputting a total volume number.

Quantum

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Re: The 2016 melting season
« Reply #1394 on: May 19, 2016, 02:56:14 PM »
I took the liberty of trying to draw the current 0C contour line  using the amateur weather stations on wunderground. This is just for illustrative purposes so it probably has an error of plus or minus around 100 miles. Anyway I was surprised to see how far south the contour is today in N america. I suspect its still anomalously warm, but still contrasts starkly to last week during the blow torch weather.

F.Tnioli

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Re: The 2016 melting season
« Reply #1395 on: May 19, 2016, 03:03:13 PM »
F.Tnioli, I know it is a recurring topic, but it is beyond question that this model is wrong to the extreme. To start with (and almost to finish with it), over the years we could see it contradicts buoys observations by 1,2 meters ... then Cryosat, topaz,... and later their supposedly 4m-thick ice melts as if it was ice cream.
Navy model too, however they provide much more, such as the nice drift forecast maps that are really useful, and they have the decency of not outputting a total volume number.

I am far (very) from being qualified enough to be able to estimate complex sea ice models overall and in their every feature, so can't discuss that anyhow. However, i doubt your "wrong to the extreme" statement is true about every feature and all the data their model produces, if one understands "wrong" as "incorrect and useless for _any_ practical purpose, be it quantative, comparative, historical, research tool and/or any other practical purpose". Why would they bother, otherwise?

Next, i did not say a word about thickness numbers their model produces, you know. Please note i only "compare DMI graph lines with other DMI graph lines", and not "DMI lines to any other-source lines". The former has some use, IMHO. The latter certainly doesn't. Ain't proposing to do the latter.
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plinius

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Re: The 2016 melting season
« Reply #1396 on: May 19, 2016, 03:48:17 PM »
I took the liberty of trying to draw the current 0C contour line  using the amateur weather stations on wunderground. This is just for illustrative purposes so it probably has an error of plus or minus around 100 miles. Anyway I was surprised to see how far south the contour is today in N america. I suspect its still anomalously warm, but still contrasts starkly to last week during the blow torch weather.

Hope you are aware that you did this at the time of the night-time minimum temperature? At daytime entire Alaska should be frost-free, similar for the big canadian lakes.

Quantum

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Re: The 2016 melting season
« Reply #1397 on: May 19, 2016, 04:08:48 PM »
I took the liberty of trying to draw the current 0C contour line  using the amateur weather stations on wunderground. This is just for illustrative purposes so it probably has an error of plus or minus around 100 miles. Anyway I was surprised to see how far south the contour is today in N america. I suspect its still anomalously warm, but still contrasts starkly to last week during the blow torch weather.

Hope you are aware that you did this at the time of the night-time minimum temperature? At daytime entire Alaska should be frost-free, similar for the big canadian lakes.
Sure, but the converse isn't always true; during the blow torch weather temps were well above zero on the north Alaskan coast 24 hours a day. I'll do it again for the daytime temperatures; I guess it will be a good test of the GFS e.c.t.

plinius

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Re: The 2016 melting season
« Reply #1398 on: May 19, 2016, 04:14:16 PM »
of course, though that was not as much the warmth as a strong Foehn effect disrupting the night-time inversion layer.

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Re: The 2016 melting season
« Reply #1399 on: May 19, 2016, 05:46:03 PM »
Quantum, hi,
Using wetteronline info, I get a very different line. I made two, one for night-, another for daytime: