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Author Topic: Low GHG Meat  (Read 721 times)

Bob Wallace

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Low GHG Meat
« on: October 02, 2017, 08:27:06 PM »
Perhaps it's time for a separate topic. 

China just purchased $300 million of factory grown meat from three Israeli companies.  If we're talking production levels that high then it's time to stop talking about lab-grown.  This is factory meat.




Is there a Moore’s law for lab-grown meat? Probably, but I am not aware of details on this subject yet. However, looking back just a few years, we have seen some insane price drops for lab-grown meat. In 2013, a burger of lab-grown meat would have cost you $325,000 excluding tips, and just two years later the same lab-grown burger was only $11.36.

Drawing reference from the continuous price drop in the last couple of years, it could be presumed that in 3 years, the global market could be inundated by lab-grown meat sold at ridiculously cheap prices. This lab-grown meat will be antibiotic-free and hormone-free, a much healthier option when compared with farmed meat.

https://cleantechnica.com/2017/10/02/lab-grown-meat-arrived-good-news-planet/


No methane from ruminants.  No methane from decomposing poop. 

No more "25 pounds of veg protein to produce one pound of animal protein". 

No more forests being destroyed to create grazing land.  Forests returning to unused grazing land and soaking up carbon.

Far, far less petroleum used for production.


It is estimated that about 14% of global greenhouse gas emissions come from livestock (estimates vary greatly depending on the assumptions).


And - this could be a huge boon in feeding our extra billions as agriculture becomes more disrupted by extreme weather.
« Last Edit: October 02, 2017, 08:41:46 PM by Bob Wallace »

Neven

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Re: Low GHG Meat
« Reply #1 on: October 02, 2017, 10:32:46 PM »
What are the downsides? Because it sounds too good to be true.
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wili

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Re: Low GHG Meat
« Reply #2 on: October 02, 2017, 10:39:43 PM »
Ummm, why not just eat vegetables, grains, legumes and fruits...?
"A force de chercher de bonnes raisons, on en trouve; on les dit; et après on y tient, non pas tant parce qu'elles sont bonnes que pour ne pas se démentir." Choderlos de Laclos "You struggle to come up with some valid reasons, then cling to them, not because they're good, but just to not back down."

Bob Wallace

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Re: Low GHG Meat
« Reply #3 on: October 02, 2017, 11:27:36 PM »
Ummm, why not just eat vegetables, grains, legumes and fruits...?

Could.  But most people won't give up meat unless forced to do so.

The way we avoid extreme climate change is to give people low carbon options that are acceptable and affordable.  We've been trying to get people to live a 'green' life for half a century with only very limited results.

EVs that are cheaper to purchase, cheaper to operate and give a more comfortable ride will replace ICEVs.  People will be glad to spend less for more.

Electricity from wind and solar that is cheaper than electricity from coal and gas will be welcomed.

LEDs are being rapidly adopted because the give as good or better light as incandescents and need to be changed far less often.  While costing only a small amount more.

Solutions that make people want to switch.

At this point factory beef is basically only ground beef, AFAIK.  But if we could offer people cheaper ground beef then we should see the cost of steaks and roasts increase and amount consumed decrease.  Many people would satisfy their meat craving with a hamburger steak, meatloaf, or ground beef dish if there was a large price differential.

Neven

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Re: Low GHG Meat
« Reply #4 on: October 02, 2017, 11:35:36 PM »
I guess my beef with it - very funny, Neven - is that it doesn't improve the way I'd like to live my life (I eat meat for the fat more than the protein, and I buy the best organic, grass-fed stuff I can find).

But it looks good for replacing all the fast food stuff that tastes like nothing/shit anyway. And it's true that that's what most people want to eat, most of the time. Less GHGs, less CAFO, less cruelty, less pollution, less toxins in the meat.

It's the best option after Arcadia, I guess. Just like symptom relief is the best option after systemic change.
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wili

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Re: Low GHG Meat
« Reply #5 on: October 02, 2017, 11:51:37 PM »
 I hope you don't mind the introduction of facts into the discussion.

In 1971, only 1% of Americans (US) were vegetarians or vegans. As of 2013 it was 13%, with much of that increase coming in just the previous few years.

In the UK, vegetarianism and veganism has also increased dramatically, now up to 11% by some estimates. And of course, reducing greatly the amount of meat eaten can also have big effects, and Brits are doing that, too: "one survey identifying 23% of the population as "meat-reducers", and 10% as "meat-avoiders"".

I'm pretty sure that none of those people were 'forced' into this diet. Wouldn't you want to be on the side of those encouraging these trends?

Yours is the kind of defeatism you are always quick to point out and attack in other posters comments on other issues.

And if we are discussing China and India, in the quite recent past the diet of most of their citizens could best be described as essentially vegan with occasional lapses (as many vegetarians and vegans have...but for survival purposes, purity is not the point).

For a wide variety of reasons, lost of people can change their dietary practices fundamentally and quickly. Look at the sudden popularity of the Atkins diet a few years ago, when millions of people decided to turn away from what had been considered for millennia 'the staff of life,' bread.

Archeologists tell us that the Jewish prohibition against pork eating seemed to occur quite suddenly in response to a need to set themselves apart from the newcomers on the Gaza strip in ~1200 bce, the Peleset (thought to be the term that evolved into Palestinians).

I'm not against meat substitutes of various sorts. But clearly anything that requires that much processing is going to be more energy, and so carbon, intensive than the straight forward, nutritious fruits of the earth.
« Last Edit: October 03, 2017, 12:09:03 AM by wili »
"A force de chercher de bonnes raisons, on en trouve; on les dit; et après on y tient, non pas tant parce qu'elles sont bonnes que pour ne pas se démentir." Choderlos de Laclos "You struggle to come up with some valid reasons, then cling to them, not because they're good, but just to not back down."

magnamentis

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Re: Low GHG Meat
« Reply #6 on: October 03, 2017, 12:42:25 AM »
Ummm, why not just eat vegetables, grains, legumes and fruits...?

because genetically we have various kinds of metabolisms and not all of them are made for sole vegetarian nutrition, you can read this up, there is too much to it while as a general guideline, people with bloodgroup "zero" don't do well with wheat corn and the likes, it makes them ill, i self tested this, at the age of 42 i could barely walk down the stairs in the morning without using the rails and now, 20 years later i jump up and run, i simply gave up on carbo hydrates as a main source of energy and switched to specific vegetable, limited amounts of fruit (suger/fructose is the problem) and mostly lean meat, bio-eggs, fish, chicken and twice a week a juicy spanish "chuleton the buey" LOL

i have some food tables for each bloodgroup as a guideline while it's far from being the whole story. mostly it's about quantities as well as sources. in my fridge there are zero processed foods while i enjoy the full program in restaurants, currently a bit too frequently but these are periods that pass ;)
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sidd

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Re: Low GHG Meat
« Reply #7 on: October 03, 2017, 01:27:42 AM »
What is the CO2/water/energy/waste footprint for factory grown meat ? The cleantech article did not mention.

In terms of cruelty to animals, it is certainly better.

sidd

wili

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Re: Low GHG Meat
« Reply #8 on: October 03, 2017, 02:54:59 AM »
mag, you can do fine on a vegan or vegetarian diet without corn or wheat.

Lots and lots and lots of people have gone vegetarian or vegan and are doing fine, actually usually with great improvements in health. It is the rare exception that gets all the press, of course.

And of course, it is perfectly possible to eat a totally sh!tty veg diet, just as is true with any other broad diet definition...marshmallows are, after all, vegan!

Good idea to stay away from processed foods though, generally.
"A force de chercher de bonnes raisons, on en trouve; on les dit; et après on y tient, non pas tant parce qu'elles sont bonnes que pour ne pas se démentir." Choderlos de Laclos "You struggle to come up with some valid reasons, then cling to them, not because they're good, but just to not back down."

Sigmetnow

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Re: Low GHG Meat
« Reply #9 on: October 03, 2017, 03:28:12 AM »
The "Meat the Future" website makes a good point:  the meat of the future does not have to look like "meat" -- think of all the meat products today that do not!

But why should lab-grown meat look like the meat we consume today? Growing protein in bioreactors could lead to entirely new forms of meat with radically different aesthetics, materials and eating rituals. While these new products might seem unfamiliar and artificial, much of the meat we already consume is divorced from the animal’s natural form: Ground beef, smoked sausages, and chicken nuggets.

The Next Nature Lab is currently developing new visions on the production methods, designs and eating habits that might emerge around in-vitro meat. These speculative designs vary from knitted meat, protein powder fondue and luxurious meat fruit, to kitchen based bio-reactors and colorful magic meatballs for the kids.
https://www.nextnature.net/2012/09/eating-in-vitro-meat-the-expectations/


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Bob Wallace

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Re: Low GHG Meat
« Reply #10 on: October 03, 2017, 04:36:38 AM »
Yours is the kind of defeatism you are always quick to point out and attack in other posters comments on other issues.


Defeatism or 'been there, tried that, it didn't work, now have a better idea' -ism?

Some people in India don't eat meat.  It's a religious thing.  Many people in India eat meat. 

Until recently many people in China ate little or no meat for one simple reason.  They could not afford to purchase meat.

Veganism is "in" right now.  Vegetarianism was "in" in the 1970s.  I joined up and didn't eat meat for over 12 years.  The people who I knew who were veggies back when I was moved back to meat faster than I did.  We'll have to wait to see if today's vegans stay the course.

If you think you can convert the world to veganism, have a try at it.  And good luck to you.

Personally I think the route to reducing our food related GHG problem is to quit eating animals.  But for those of us who still desire to eat animal protein - meat - make it factory meat.


wili

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Re: Low GHG Meat
« Reply #11 on: October 03, 2017, 04:43:29 AM »
Bob: Yeah, some people have not eaten meat because of poverty.

Some people have ridden bicycles because of poverty.

Do you think it is a bad idea to encourage people to use bicycles just because some people have been forced to use them instead of bikes in the past??

Personal anecdotes tell us approximately nothing about the issue, of course.

But if you really personally think that not eating animals is a good thing, why not join me in promoting it, rather than reaching for shaky arguments why it can't happen?? :)

:::::::::::::::::::::::

Sig: Nice point. My favorite odd looking meat forms:



 ;D ;D ;D

Sleep tight all, and stay away from gunfire if possible!! :-[
« Last Edit: October 03, 2017, 04:48:57 AM by wili »
"A force de chercher de bonnes raisons, on en trouve; on les dit; et après on y tient, non pas tant parce qu'elles sont bonnes que pour ne pas se démentir." Choderlos de Laclos "You struggle to come up with some valid reasons, then cling to them, not because they're good, but just to not back down."

Bob Wallace

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Re: Low GHG Meat
« Reply #12 on: October 03, 2017, 04:50:26 AM »
Wili, you simply don't get it.

There are many billions of people who want to eat meat.  On of the first things that happens when economic conditions improve is that people starting more meat.

I know of no way to turn that around to any meaningful degree. 

If you think you do, the get at it.  If you work fast enough then there will be no market for factory meat.

wili

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Re: Low GHG Meat
« Reply #13 on: October 03, 2017, 04:55:40 AM »
Bob, you simply don't get it. There are billions of people who want to move away from a meat-intense diet, for their health, for their budget, for the basic morality of it, and for the environment.

(There, fixed that for ya!  ;D ;D )
"A force de chercher de bonnes raisons, on en trouve; on les dit; et après on y tient, non pas tant parce qu'elles sont bonnes que pour ne pas se démentir." Choderlos de Laclos "You struggle to come up with some valid reasons, then cling to them, not because they're good, but just to not back down."

sidd

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Re: Low GHG Meat
« Reply #14 on: October 03, 2017, 05:11:44 AM »
There a few hundred million in south india who have eaten no meat for generations upon generations. So meat is not a human imperative, but it would be difficult to wean a majority off.

But who knows. Collapse of monoculture agriculture would lead to mass adoption of vegetarian diet very quickly, since the feedlots and battery farms cannot run without huge grain input.

sidd



Bob Wallace

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Re: Low GHG Meat
« Reply #15 on: October 03, 2017, 05:38:30 AM »
The video talks about it taking a 28th the land and an 11th the water. There would also obviously be no methane production or millions of tons of animal waste to get rid of. Also the meat would no require steroids or antibiotics.

Comment on CT.

That's a major change in land and water use.

Bruce Steele

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Re: Low GHG Meat
« Reply #16 on: October 03, 2017, 05:53:06 AM »
The confinement farms are economically supported by GMO grain that allows roundup to supplant cultivation and manpower.
 The efficiency of eliminating human labor and the efficiency of scale allow urban consumers to eat cheap protein and sugar. The bargain is we can ignore willfully because we crave, and fat and sugar are cheap, and suffice.
 Maybe I am cynical but perhaps it would be easier to somehow replace everyone's sugar and fat with some replacements that are still sugar and fat but fat and sugar from low or zero fossil fuel sources and methane mediated farming techniques ?
 How do we get from fossil fuel supported ag to anything near zero fossil fuel ag ?
 With zero fossil fuel ?   Nobody has a clue how to do that and there is almost nobody asking how we are suppose to get there.

Bob Wallace

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Re: Low GHG Meat
« Reply #17 on: October 03, 2017, 06:19:41 AM »
How do we get from fossil fuel supported ag to anything near zero fossil fuel ag ?
 With zero fossil fuel ?

1. We electrify ag equipment.

2. We use non-petroleum based fertilizers.

Bruce Steele

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Re: Low GHG Meat
« Reply #18 on: October 03, 2017, 07:13:51 AM »
However we get there we should keep a close eye on the goal ... Zero fossil fuel. Food is an economic decision for consumers and " cheap " is important . I can't speak for farmers in general but farming is a difficult way to make a living. Many of us need a second outside income to keep the farm going at all.
So a conversion to electric better be cheap just like the prices the public expects to pay for food.
 Where is there any discussion of these issues?  Maybe I am missing something?
 

sidd

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Re: Low GHG Meat
« Reply #19 on: October 03, 2017, 08:03:25 AM »
1/28th the land is easy to believe, and 1/11th the water is excellent (5000-20000  l/kg for conventional feedlot by one study, there is another that i have but do not have the time to track down, wikipedia has some data also)

https://www.theguardian.com/news/datablog/2013/jan/10/how-much-water-food-production-waste

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Environmental_impact_of_meat_production#Water_resources

Would be nice to know the energy footprint for factory cultured meats also.

Now as to zero fossil fuel, i will note that in my experience east of the mississipi, typically 1/3 cultivated area is required to provide biofuel for all oilfired equipment consumption from tractors, combines, dump trucks, generators seed cleaners, augers, seedpress etc.

Amish got a good handle on this, especially the ones who dont hook to grid, but use oilfired machinery. Some of them are putting in solar panels if the bishops and elders go for it.

sidd



sidd

johnm33

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Re: Low GHG Meat
« Reply #20 on: October 03, 2017, 11:43:58 AM »
I'm surprised no-one has ever tried farming iguanas, they're cold blooded so would put on meat far cheaper than chickens, those from the galapagos even eat seaweed so should be very nutritious, and sometime in the el-nino weather cycle they suffer population collapses so there's a perfect time to remove a few. Not that they're the only vegetarian iguanas.
« Last Edit: October 04, 2017, 10:22:41 AM by johnm33 »

Paddy

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Re: Low GHG Meat
« Reply #21 on: October 03, 2017, 12:00:55 PM »
Other options for low GHG (and also general sustainability):
- Selectively targeted invasive species, e.g. N American crayfish in Britain, or overpopulated wild species, e.g. kangaroos in Australia
- Insect protein
- Some but by no means all species of farmed fish, e.g. tilapia and basa

We should also try and nudge the bulk of the population into eating more veggies and less meat for health as well as ethical reasons. Getting 2% of people to switch from "meat twice a day" to "meat once a day" has about the same impact on meat consumption as getting 1% of people to go vegetarian, and also benefits the health of more people.  (Assuming reasonably healthy alternatives are chosen).

As for the recent rise in veganism: it will be interesting to see how far it goes, and how much per capita meat consumption drops across the whole population.

(Personally, I'm a lazy flexitarian of the "vegetarian more days than not" variety, and also cutting down my dairy consumption).

wili

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Re: Low GHG Meat
« Reply #22 on: October 03, 2017, 09:37:08 PM »
Great points, Paddy.

The world doesn't have to be 100% vegan or vegetarian to be sustainable. But the norms for levels of meat eating do have to shift far more towards meat and dairy becoming rarer and rarer in most people's diets. For those still eating meat, yes, targeting invasive species is a good idea.
"A force de chercher de bonnes raisons, on en trouve; on les dit; et après on y tient, non pas tant parce qu'elles sont bonnes que pour ne pas se démentir." Choderlos de Laclos "You struggle to come up with some valid reasons, then cling to them, not because they're good, but just to not back down."

Bob Wallace

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Re: Low GHG Meat
« Reply #23 on: October 04, 2017, 05:07:45 AM »
Folks, there is a vegan thread.


Paddy

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Re: Low GHG Meat
« Reply #24 on: October 12, 2017, 10:08:32 AM »
More on eating invasive species, and its drawbacks and limitations, here: https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/can-we-really-eat-invasive-species-into-submission/