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Jim Williams

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Re: The 2016/2017 freezing season
« Reply #1150 on: December 02, 2016, 03:02:40 PM »
Until the Arctic Ice is there, there' s no runaway situation. But after that, globally I would expect the same kind of warming with an average of about + 10 C in the whole global system.

You've forgotten Antarctica; which will take somewhat longer,  but I agree that it will make a big difference in the Northern Hemisphere.

binntho

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Re: The 2016/2017 freezing season
« Reply #1151 on: December 02, 2016, 03:15:49 PM »
A visual of what the Arctic Sea Ice looked like on December 1st each year since 2012 up to 2016
Interesting. On first viewing, the main difference seems to be the Hudson.

This year has similar open water on the Atlantic side in 2012, and on the Pacific side in 2014, and far more open water in the Hudson than any of the other years.
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A-Team

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Re: The 2016/2017 freezing season
« Reply #1152 on: December 02, 2016, 03:29:48 PM »
Due to year-end paper shuffling needs and an impending in-law encampment, I will posting infrequently this month.

We have not done a great deal here with either voxel view or fourier transforms of daily Arctic sea ice data, in part because forum display formats and data resolution are so limited. Fancier displays such as the 5D hyperstacks of ImageJ used in microscopy (eg to display sections through moving stained cells) are thus off-limits since only 4-5 of our thousand registrants work within that freeware and there’s no practical way to distribute such files over the forum.

Athough the Arctic Ocean winter ice cover progression has almost stalled in recent days, arguably the main interest in winter re-freeze has shifted to growth in ice thickness. Some of that is ice growth along the periphery (marginal ice zone) and some is bottom growth (subsurface water freezing on underneath existing ice).

The image below looks at the rate of growth of peripheral ice using 61 days of SMOS data from U Bremen. The idea here is to track the history of single pixels as they progress from open water to the maximum 0.5 m sensed by SMOS. That amounts to layering up the available data, monte carlo selection of a pixel, cropping the layer set down to one for that single pixel, tiling it up, expanding the size without tweaking the Bremen color palette, repeating for more randomly selected pixels, tiling up the tiles, slicing that up, and sorting on >0.5 m pixel count to put them in order.

That’s done below for 16 pixels that lay outside the mask of pixels that always had thick ice over the Oct-Nov time frame. This could easily be extended to thousands of pixels (or all of them). In certain software, they could be towered semitransparently over the Oct 1st as is done in medical imaging. Here, the resulting thickness progressions give some indication of how fast freezing sea water thickens up to half a meter (at which point SMOS loses track of growth): about 20 days.

However there are a lot of oddities. These are largely attributable to ice movement. However as the U Bremen team publication states, SMOS has various insurmountable issues with accuracy and pixel footprint. Some of this could be addressed using 3x3 blocks of pixels to fine-tune the central pixel and by regional averaging.

The second image repeats a similar procedure for the same dates with AMSR2 sea ice concentration from U Hamburg.

The two overviews show the available areas for sampling, ie not always thicker than 0.5 m for SMOS and not always 100% concentration for AMSR2. Black dots indicate the pixel tower sites. The SMOS color palette does not desaturate to anything suitable for averaging nor does the geotiff so the netCDF would have to be used to generate quantitative grayscales.

SMOS and AMSR2 are shown side by side in the 61 day animation. This requires passing each series briefly into indexed color squeezing each palette into 127 colors before returning to RGB and gif-differencing to reduce file size to keep the 1x2 final product below the 255 colors this format allows.

The rate of bottom growth — which capable people here have calculated many times from a thermodynamic perspective — could possibly be directly monitored via Cryosat using this same technique (not shown). Cryosat uses a precision altimeter to determine the distance between itself and the ice surface. Given sea level and tides, that measures freeboard but not ice thickness unless the density (buoyancy) is known rather than assumed that of freshwater ice.

However snow cover, partial snow melt, incomplete brine exclusion in younger ice, sea water washed onto the floe and refrozen cause various measurement issues especially in the younger thinner ice that accounts for so much of the Arctic Ocean coverage today. It’s just difficult to measure ice thickness.

For the latest on Cryosat, AGU2016 features 42 presentations, eg https://agu.confex.com/agu/fm16/meetingapp.cgi/Paper/163021

The final image shows the AMSR2 sea ice concentration averaged over the last 62 days. It is slightly out of gamut because of their palette decision but shows very clearly the difference between the Beaufort-Chukchi-ESS and the Barents Sea boundary. (This is computed by adjusting stack transparencies so each day makes an equal contribution to the final image.)
« Last Edit: December 02, 2016, 03:39:10 PM by A-Team »

DrTskoul

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Re: The 2016/2017 freezing season
« Reply #1153 on: December 02, 2016, 03:59:06 PM »
A-Tean.  Awesome ... Could you extract a 2D thickness over time for some of the pixels?  It could be instructive to people that can only visualize in 2D... Also useful to understandthe thickening velocity.

Thanks for your amazing work

oren

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Re: The 2016/2017 freezing season
« Reply #1154 on: December 02, 2016, 10:40:39 PM »
A-Team great graphics as usual. The SMOS animation is very instructive. Is there enough past data to chart total sea ice area of >0.5m thickness and compare to previous years? I think this could be a useful metric for the current state of the Arctic. Extent sometimes hides a lot of insights.

A visual of what the Arctic Sea Ice looked like on December 1st each year since 2012 up to 2016
Interesting. On first viewing, the main difference seems to be the Hudson.

This year has similar open water on the Atlantic side in 2012, and on the Pacific side in 2014, and far more open water in the Hudson than any of the other years.
Interestingly, this year has early ice in Okhotsk, probably due to the low temps in Siberia. But I think the open water on the Atlantic side is more important, although it was indeed similar in 2012.

jai mitchell

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Re: The 2016/2017 freezing season
« Reply #1155 on: December 02, 2016, 10:54:28 PM »
Please consider visiting this post in "Conservative Scientists and its Consequences"

http://forum.arctic-sea-ice.net/index.php?topic=1053.msg95624#msg95624

regarding: 
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My "burning embers"
are not tri-color bar graphs
+3C today

Pmt111500

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Re: The 2016/2017 freezing season
« Reply #1156 on: December 03, 2016, 04:01:40 AM »
Until the Arctic Ice is there, there' s no runaway situation. But after that, globally I would expect the same kind of warming with an average of about + 10 C in the whole global system.

You've forgotten Antarctica; which will take somewhat longer,  but I agree that it will make a big difference in the Northern Hemisphere.

That, and on a large area of nh the tropopause should go way up spreading the extra heat generated by the albedo change to dissipate over the large parts of the hemipshere. Albedo has not changed (by much at least) over temperate/tropical areas. The warm anomalies start to spill, if you will.

Going somewhat high in the speculative mode, this could mean arctic sized 5-8C higher heatwaves over populated areas. Easier generation of high-end hurricanes/typhoons is to me also pretty certain, of the rising o8f the tropopause, can't really say of tornados, could go weaker but way more frequent everywhere... so it's not like heatwave of 40C is suddenly 50C, but i for one am not going to rule out 45C heatwaves. The french heatwave of 2003 (https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/2003_European_heat_wave) might have been the first one (but milder and less widespread) of this kind.

It could occasionally be like the models showing the 2070-90 weather, so it's not like people won't get any practise before things go really bad...
« Last Edit: December 03, 2016, 04:27:52 AM by Pmt111500 »

Feeltheburn

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Re: The 2016/2017 freezing season
« Reply #1157 on: December 03, 2016, 06:24:58 AM »
NSIDC extent for 12/1/16 = 10.2 million km2. More than 3 million km2 added in 30 days. And since the Hudson hasn't frozen hardly at all but will, this number will continue to rise steadily. Just saying.
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Feeltheburn

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Re: The 2016/2017 freezing season
« Reply #1158 on: December 03, 2016, 06:30:02 AM »
http://www.esa.int/Our_Activities/Observing_the_Earth/CryoSat/Arctic_freeze_slows_down

CryoSat volume update. Looks like tied with previous low for November...

Low, but is it better than expected with the current extent numbers and temperature anomalies?

PIOMAS was tying for the lowest last month, will be interesting to see their numbers in a few days.




Extent in 2016 lower than 2011 on this day, but the graphic shows what appears to be quite a bit more really thick ice north of Canadian Archipelago. Of course, I'm an optimist.
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mmghosh

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Re: The 2016/2017 freezing season
« Reply #1159 on: December 03, 2016, 06:56:01 AM »
Optimist about what?  Have you detected a decreasing trend in any of the refreeze metrics?

Do you have any physics-based reason to expect a decreasing trend?

jdallen

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Re: The 2016/2017 freezing season
« Reply #1160 on: December 03, 2016, 07:34:21 AM »
NSIDC extent for 12/1/16 = 10.2 million km2. More than 3 million km2 added in 30 days. And since the Hudson hasn't frozen hardly at all but will, this number will continue to rise steadily. Just saying.
Ok, I'll bite.  Just saying what?  What do you think that increase means?  Please have your ducks in a row.
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oren

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Re: The 2016/2017 freezing season
« Reply #1161 on: December 03, 2016, 10:42:04 AM »
NSIDC extent for 12/1/16 = 10.2 million km2. More than 3 million km2 added in 30 days. And since the Hudson hasn't frozen hardly at all but will, this number will continue to rise steadily. Just saying.
Shockingly, summer has given way to winter and temperatures dropped across the Northern Hemisphere. Just feeding.

andy_t_roo

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Re: The 2016/2017 freezing season
« Reply #1162 on: December 03, 2016, 10:44:44 AM »
GFS is not looking much better seven days out for the Arctic.

It also seems that they have redefined their colour scheme, with red->white in the +20-30 range ... because of the issues  with the colour scale being clipped at +20 red previously.

A-Team

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Re: The 2016/2017 freezing season
« Reply #1163 on: December 03, 2016, 02:24:02 PM »
Below is Captain Cook's map of the Chukchi ice front on 18 Aug 1778 (ship log data and maps as published by HL Stern in a $171 pay-to-view article). Cook was a high-end cartographer for his day and very meticulous in his notes.

Probably the most interesting thing in the captain's blog was not so much the lat,lon of the ice front but rather its height: 10-12 feet which amounts to 3.4 m of ice above the water line (freeboard), 30.6 m below (draft) and 34 m of total thickness. (Ridged ice to 20 m is known in recent times: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arctic_ice_pack, unsourced).

The mast was tall enough that they had an adequate view northward over the top of the ice front without climbing it (though it was often foggy). The thickness can thus be presumed fairly uniform (rather than a freak local over-rafting) because they sailed for 11 days along the wall, from Icy Cape, AK to eastern Siberia.

In fact, Cook may have been able to see behind the front from the poop deck which was built for naturalist Joseph Banks. The HMS Resolution, a converted merchant collier sloop, was modified many times -- with lol seaicesailor can chase down the deck and crow's nest heights for the vessel as it was on this trip.

The image below shows the ice front on Aug 18th for both 1778 and 2016 (inset) and the trend since 1850 (2nd inset). It is rather remarkable that the ice front in late fall today (02 Dec 16) is almost twice the distance away from the Bering Strait as it was then back in late summer of 1788.

SMOS thickness for 02 Dec 16 from U Bremen shows ice would not attain a thickness of 0.5 m for yet another ~260 km poleward.

The overall volume of Arctic Ocean ice must have been immense, a high multiple of contemporary Piomas. As sis points out below, ridges never form on the boundary of an ice pack, only internally where there is ice to push back.

If, for starters, we assume that the 34 m thickness at the wall effectively extended over the entire Arctic Ocean and take the mean ice thickness at the April 1st (?) peak as 3 m (?), then the volume of ice in 1778 pencils out to 11x that of today.

However the ice for as long as we've known it is a half-dome, perhaps 4-5 x thicker off the central CAA than on the fringes. If that scaling applied back in Cook's day, the volume might have 30-40x that of today.

Here we might want to look at Svalbard records to see if there was a wall and how tall it looked from the other side -- cartographer Willem Barentsz visited that archipelago back in 1596, like Cook looking for a cheap shipping route. His 1599 map may have some good information on ice. A couple of crew members published their blogs, Jan van Linschoten from the first two trips and Gerrit de Veer the ship's carpenter. Records would be thick during the centuries Svalbard was a whaling center. Heavy-duty tourism began in the 1890's.                     

http://psc.apl.uw.edu/people/investigators/harry-stern/
https://www.carbonbrief.org/guest-post-piecing-together-arctic-sea-ice-history-1850
http://www.washington.edu/news/2016/11/18/qa-uws-harry-stern-discusses-historical-maps-the-northwest-passage-and-the-future-of-arctic-ocean-shipping/
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4743786/

« Last Edit: December 03, 2016, 05:55:31 PM by A-Team »

seaicesailor

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Re: The 2016/2017 freezing season
« Reply #1164 on: December 03, 2016, 03:26:02 PM »
Lol
The uss Healy found (mid July) floes which freeboard was, at some ridged locations, probably as high the wall described by Captain Cook. But nothing as close as that "wall" description.

be cause

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Re: The 2016/2017 freezing season
« Reply #1165 on: December 03, 2016, 04:36:56 PM »
The last 48 hours of sentinel images on DMI of the NE of Greenland show the thick multiyear ice being primed for rapid export thru Fram . The fracturing and movement off-shore seems to show the ice is in the poorest condition I have seen in the area in any season  .. b.c.
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Iceismylife

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Re: The 2016/2017 freezing season
« Reply #1166 on: December 03, 2016, 05:35:13 PM »
...


Q:  Will we avoid the worst of climate driven impacts to our livable biosphere if we do not reduce our global CO2 emissions by 80%, from 1990 levels, by 2025?
A:  Almost certainly not.

...
That is a mouthful.

Am I reading this correctly when I read it to say that we can't dodge the bullet by having an 80% reduction in CO2 emissions from 1990 levels by 2025?

Then why bother trying?

And you left out a question.

Q Are we going to have a younger dryas type event in the near future?  (by 2100?)

A Reasonably likely.


So what is the cure for global cooling?

More CO2 not less?

6roucho

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Re: The 2016/2017 freezing season
« Reply #1167 on: December 03, 2016, 05:43:41 PM »
...


Q:  Will we avoid the worst of climate driven impacts to our livable biosphere if we do not reduce our global CO2 emissions by 80%, from 1990 levels, by 2025?
A:  Almost certainly not.

...
That is a mouthful.

Am I reading this correctly when I read it to say that we can't dodge the bullet by having an 80% reduction in CO2 emissions from 1990 levels by 2025?

Then why bother trying?

And you left out a question.

Q Are we going to have a younger dryas type event in the near future?  (by 2100?)

A Reasonably likely.


So what is the cure for global cooling?

More CO2 not less?
You need to speak to bbr2314.

Tigertown

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Re: The 2016/2017 freezing season
« Reply #1168 on: December 03, 2016, 05:52:36 PM »
The last 48 hours of sentinel images on DMI of the NE of Greenland show the thick multiyear ice being primed for rapid export thru Fram . The fracturing and movement off-shore seems to show the ice is in the poorest condition I have seen in the area in any season  .. b.c.

Is that why Nares is flowing backwards and then everything moving to the East? There is actually a nice little swimming hole opened up near shore because of the ice pulling away.
« Last Edit: December 03, 2016, 06:03:03 PM by Tigertown »
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crandles

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Re: The 2016/2017 freezing season
« Reply #1169 on: December 03, 2016, 06:08:59 PM »
...


Q:  Will we avoid the worst of climate driven impacts to our livable biosphere if we do not reduce our global CO2 emissions by 80%, from 1990 levels, by 2025?
A:  Almost certainly not.

...
That is a mouthful.

Am I reading this correctly when I read it to say that we can't dodge the bullet by having an 80% reduction in CO2 emissions from 1990 levels by 2025?

Then why bother trying?

And you left out a question.

Q Are we going to have a younger dryas type event in the near future?  (by 2100?)

A Reasonably likely.


So what is the cure for global cooling?

More CO2 not less?

I think you are reading it wrong. My interpretation is:

That question and answer do not give any opinion on what will happen if we do reduce emissions by 80% or more. However, if we reduce emissions by 79.9% by 2025, it is giving a pretty firm and very grim view that that is not enough to avoid the worst of the impacts. That seems to me like it is badly overconfident that we still get disastrous outcome with 79.9% reduction in emissions by 2025.

So different interpretation, but yes I think that leads to a far too grim view that leads to a 'why bother trying' attitude. Changing 2025 to 2050 might be better but there simply isn't sharp cut off points allowing simple language like being suggested here.

Isn't the effect of adding your Q&A
Q Are we going to have a younger dryas type event in the near future?  (by 2100?)
A Reasonably likely.

also tending to lead to a 'why bother trying' attitude?

(What has "cure for global cooling" got to do with anything being discussed?)

Tigertown

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Re: The 2016/2017 freezing season
« Reply #1170 on: December 03, 2016, 06:11:16 PM »
That is really ripping up the ice. You can see it better on Polarview. Zoom in near the mouth of Nares. Move the Date back to about nov 27 or 28 and then hit the animate button.
www.polarview.aq/sic/arctic/
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6roucho

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Re: The 2016/2017 freezing season
« Reply #1171 on: December 03, 2016, 06:33:34 PM »
(What has "cure for global cooling" got to do with anything being discussed?)
A "younger dryas type event" is a period of rapid cooling.

shmengie

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Re: The 2016/2017 freezing season
« Reply #1172 on: December 03, 2016, 06:34:28 PM »
I wish I could add something positive to the forum, world, etc..
Been viewing the Danish MI charts for temps @ 80 north and found my self wanting to see thru the years.
http://ocean.dmi.dk/arctic/meant80n.uk.php

Using their charts I hacked together an overlay.  It's nothing new, not the best job in the world. Another method view a small set of data.

2011-2015 are shaded "pink". I used GIMP, not the numbers...  But it looks as valid (to me) as tho I had.
« Last Edit: December 03, 2016, 09:21:18 PM by shmengie »
Professor Trump, who'd thought it was that complicated?

A-Team

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Re: The 2016/2017 freezing season
« Reply #1173 on: December 03, 2016, 06:43:59 PM »
Quote
I used GIMP, not the numbers...  But it looks valid
Right. Since the background is straight white, setting mode to 'darken only' allows just the graph pixels come through. Identical to replotting but graphical methods are a whole lot faster. There is also a plugin to fetch for averaging larger and more complex stacks, see a couple posts back for whole Arctic 60 days of sea ice concentration.
Quote
Sentinel can see better
Right. AMSR2 loses floe resolution somewhat as the sea ice concentration gets too high. The lower member of each animation below has had severe non-linear contrast adjustment but that only helps up to a point. They run from 01 Nov to 02 Dec 2016.
« Last Edit: December 03, 2016, 06:58:52 PM by A-Team »

Tigertown

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Re: The 2016/2017 freezing season
« Reply #1174 on: December 03, 2016, 08:37:18 PM »
That looks even worse than I thought. From what seaicesailor said yesterday, the weather system is not supposed to really kick in until tomorrow, but it looks like this has been tearing at the ice for days already. Maybe I misunderstood something. A lot of damage, either way.
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Gray-Wolf

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Re: The 2016/2017 freezing season
« Reply #1175 on: December 03, 2016, 09:35:26 PM »
If we see the U.S. fall into the 2012/13 winter configuration with a cold east coast then we could see super cold air flowing onto real high sst's just off shore? This will fire up big storms ( as it did through December/Jan that winter?) but the low solar is letting High Pressure 'block' the UK from being hit by them this time and instead they'll go up the East Coast of Greenland and into Barrentsz/Kara?

 They will be warm ,wet and windy.

Svalbard has already had to evacuate folk as the permafrost lets go and landslides crash down from the hills. More of the same will not be good for them!

And what of the 'ice edge' if we see a very stormy Dec/Jan? Fram flushes and high swells running into a thin ,weak pack made of of floes joined by pancake ice.......

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magnamentis

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Re: The 2016/2017 freezing season
« Reply #1176 on: December 03, 2016, 11:16:22 PM »
...


Q:  Will we avoid the worst of climate driven impacts to our livable biosphere if we do not reduce our global CO2 emissions by 80%, from 1990 levels, by 2025?
A:  Almost certainly not.

...
That is a mouthful.

Am I reading this correctly when I read it to say that we can't dodge the bullet by having an 80% reduction in CO2 emissions from 1990 levels by 2025?

Then why bother trying?

And you left out a question.

Q Are we going to have a younger dryas type event in the near future?  (by 2100?)

A Reasonably likely.


So what is the cure for global cooling?

More CO2 not less?
You need to speak to bbr2314.

LOL as to swiss cheese like greenland ice sheet, you have a good memory, very good :-)

jdallen

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Re: The 2016/2017 freezing season
« Reply #1177 on: December 03, 2016, 11:24:39 PM »
...


Q:  Will we avoid the worst of climate driven impacts to our livable biosphere if we do not reduce our global CO2 emissions by 80%, from 1990 levels, by 2025?
A:  Almost certainly not.

...
That is a mouthful.

Am I reading this correctly when I read it to say that we can't dodge the bullet by having an 80% reduction in CO2 emissions from 1990 levels by 2025?

Then why bother trying?


Two words:  Ocean Acidification.

Additional words - we may not beat the 2C limit, even the 3C limit, but we can still hold down increases in the atmosphere which could seriously disrupt the West Antarctic ice sheet, and possibly even the Eastern Antarctic.

Further, if we "don't bother", large segments of the tropics and subtropics will in fact become uninhabitable for practical purposes because of heat events.  That's just for starters, without considering the utter disruption of our food web.

Our CO2 production is going to have some serious and inescapable consequences.  If we don't stop, it *WILL* be far worse.
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6roucho

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Re: The 2016/2017 freezing season
« Reply #1178 on: December 04, 2016, 03:34:32 AM »
There's no time to stop trying, even at +3c, even when the last few idiots are huddled round their sacred refrigerators and praying to the moon gods to stop this infernal heat, so they can get to the game without their SUVs catching fire. The argument is really about whether we should *start* trying. America just elected a president who thinks climate change is a Nigerian 419 scam.

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Re: The 2016/2017 freezing season
« Reply #1179 on: December 04, 2016, 05:34:30 AM »
There's no time to stop trying, even at +3c, even when the last few idiots are huddled round their sacred refrigerators and praying to the moon gods to stop this infernal heat, so they can get to the game without their SUVs catching fire. The argument is really about whether we should *start* trying. America just elected a president who thinks climate change is a Nigerian 419 scam.
Not my choice of executive, for certain.  However, definitely, no time to stop trying.  In fact, time to push harder.  Now, about funding for NOAA arctic research?  I have a few choice words for some folks...
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Aikimox

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Re: The 2016/2017 freezing season
« Reply #1180 on: December 04, 2016, 07:30:02 AM »
...


Q:  Will we avoid the worst of climate driven impacts to our livable biosphere if we do not reduce our global CO2 emissions by 80%, from 1990 levels, by 2025?
A:  Almost certainly not.

...
That is a mouthful.

Am I reading this correctly when I read it to say that we can't dodge the bullet by having an 80% reduction in CO2 emissions from 1990 levels by 2025?

Then why bother trying?

And you left out a question.

Q Are we going to have a younger dryas type event in the near future?  (by 2100?)

A Reasonably likely.


So what is the cure for global cooling?

More CO2 not less?

If we stop trying we might as well give up on life
If we keep ourselves locked inside a small sandbox of opinions/ideas/models- might as well give up.
If we stop ALL emissions - it's not going to solve the problem. In fact, if the emissions stop abruptly, we might even cause additional damage to the system when the aerosol blanket drops.
If we keep looking into the issue, do our very best trying to understand the entire picture, - we might have a chance.

In any case, I strongly suspect that our survival as a species in the near future will utterly depend on how fast and efficiently we can restore the biospheric balance in addition to taking care of the emissions. If we get rid of the CO2 emissions but keep killing forests and oceans, abusing the soil and generally destroying the environment - then it's a lost cause and we should give up now. 
« Last Edit: December 04, 2016, 10:09:38 AM by Aikimox »

meddoc

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Re: The 2016/2017 freezing season
« Reply #1181 on: December 04, 2016, 11:14:33 AM »
"If we stop trying we might as well give up on life
If we keep ourselves locked inside a small sandbox of opinions/ideas/models- might as well give up.
If we stop ALL emissions - it's not going to solve the problem. In fact, if the emissions stop abruptly, we might even cause additional damage to the system when the aerosol blanket drops.
If we keep looking into the issue, do our very best trying to understand the entire picture, - we might have a chance.

In any case, I strongly suspect that our survival as a species in the near future will utterly depend on how fast and efficiently we can restore the biospheric balance in addition to taking care of the emissions. If we get rid of the CO2 emissions but keep killing forests and oceans, abusing the soil and generally destroying the environment - then it's a lost cause and we should give up now."


Yes exactly. And Runaway Climate Change is only just one crisis we face amongst: overpopulation, biodiversity loss, soil erosion, resource exploitation, geopoltical tensions due to all this...

I already try to just make the most of every day, and do & be with the ones I want to as much as possible- that's all.

A-Team

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Re: The 2016/2017 freezing season
« Reply #1182 on: December 04, 2016, 05:33:42 PM »
Below is SMOS floating on NOAA bathymetry from 01 Oct - 02 Dec 2016.

The first question here concerns warm Atlantic Water, which is supposed to be circulating along the continental shelf break (at core depth of ~300 m) until reaching the Lomonosov Ridge on the Siberian side, with a branch then following the ridge down to the Nares.  (The Lomonosov is continental shelf rifted away from northern Europe ages ago.)

By then AW has had some opportunity to be upwardly mixed by double diffusion, tidal and other turbulence, and surface wind. If so, we might expect to see a modest effect on surface water temperature and so a pattern in delayed refreezing that correlated with the position of the Lomonosov. However that's not observed.

The second issue has to do with the perimeter available for re-freezing. Recall new ice, according to the U Bremen thin ice product for the last seven years, forms exclusively along the shoreline and outer margins of the ice pack as it exists at the September minimum. There is no significant ice forming de novo in open water.

However for the first 14 days of October this year, that perimeter included pockets of open water completely surrounded by ice in addition to the outer perimeter (topologically, the first homotopy group of open water had gotten complicated.) Those are shown in the second short animation by black (along with artifacts from the lat,lon lines in the U Bremen display).

The result is first accelerated re-freezing because there is more perimeter with short wind fetch for cold weather to act on and then a rate 'stall' after these areas have closed in, actually shrinking the active periphery (topologically, it's become simply connected).

Bottom freezing self-evidently requires surface ice to freeze upon. However this late in the season, peripheral addition to this surface (extent, area) is about done with.

The perimeter ratio of the Chukchi is slowly getting larger relative to the area of open water left but the end game there is strongly affected by Bering Sea influx and imported weather. The Svalbard FJI line has southern surges from time to time but its winter minimum remains to be determined.

Whatever, ice that forms in what is now open warm does not have the time left to attain substantial thickness before melt season begins.

The 3rd image shows, by shades of bluish white, the number of days that have been available across the Arctic Ocean for bottom freezing since Oct 1st. The yellow area has been open water the whole time (ie 0 sea ice conc in high resolution UH AMSR2); orangish tan has been >90% ice for the 62 days. The remaining ice is binned to twelve intermediate time divisions available for bottom growth. Air temperatures have to be cold too, those will be piled on in a bit.The whole Beaufort-Chukchi-ESS will be in poor condition next April according to this.

The technical difficulties in making these multi-source time series has escalated while remaining manageable, except for growing file size (number of days). The principle trick here is extracting the thin ice display from the U Bremen display, done by filmstripping into a single image, passing briefly to 32-bit indexed color, inverting the additive color pick, and deleting to transparency. Since the very thinnest ice (dark green) is problematic experimentally and disruptive visually, it too was deleted. Palette white, the boundary with >0.5 m ice had to be replaced with a sequential soft pink for the same reasons.

It is easy to measure daily outer and inner perimeters with the gimp boundary operator and  others have now copied display generation elsewhere on the internet (in place of earlier inept manual pencilling). However here the provided file would need the bathymetry removed first by 'unoptimize' or similar; quantitative efforts, especially massive multi-year Oct-Apr comparisons, are arguably better done right from the netCDF.
« Last Edit: December 04, 2016, 07:21:31 PM by A-Team »

BornFromTheVoid

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Re: The 2016/2017 freezing season
« Reply #1183 on: December 04, 2016, 07:16:40 PM »
Hey folks.
I've been a bit busy in recent months so I haven't had much time to post. I've started a PhD working on Arctic permafrost cliffs so I've been delving into the literature and getting to grips with some new software and whatnot.
I'll be doing some fieldwork during the next 2 summers, likely in around NW Canada and/or Alaska, so I should be able to provide some updates, pics and videos from the field in the appropriate threads.

Anywho, a few graphs showing the temperature in different heights of the atmosphere last month north of 70N.
First are the anomalies, showing just how massively warm November was this year.




Second is for the same area and heights, but with rankings - darker the red the closest to record warm, darker the green the closer to record cold



The shift in 1996 is really very clear on both graphs. More than that, the massively growing discrepency between the surface and upper air values since 1996 is quite remarkable.

What happened in 1996?
I recently joined the twitter thing, where I post more analysis, pics and animations: @Icy_Samuel

Sigmetnow

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Re: The 2016/2017 freezing season
« Reply #1184 on: December 04, 2016, 07:37:46 PM »
Fairbanks, Alaska, averages 12 days per year with a low of -35°F or colder. Today is the first such day in the last two winters.
https://twitter.com/climatologist49/status/805456829287251968
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Iceismylife

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Re: The 2016/2017 freezing season
« Reply #1185 on: December 04, 2016, 10:31:35 PM »
...


Q:  Will we avoid the worst of climate driven impacts to our livable biosphere if we do not reduce our global CO2 emissions by 80%, from 1990 levels, by 2025?
A:  Almost certainly not.

...
That is a mouthful.

Am I reading this correctly when I read it to say that we can't dodge the bullet by having an 80% reduction in CO2 emissions from 1990 levels by 2025?

Then why bother trying?


Two words:  Ocean Acidification.

Additional words - we may not beat the 2C limit, even the 3C limit, but we can still hold down increases in the atmosphere which could seriously disrupt the West Antarctic ice sheet, and possibly even the Eastern Antarctic.
http://www.giss.nasa.gov/research/briefs/hansen_15/fig1.gif

Plus 1 degree C from where we are now dumps Western and Eastern Antarctic ice sheets as well as Greenland's.  That is above the temps seen in the Eemian and sea levels were 10 meters higher then than now.  We are at the temps needed to dump the Western Antarctic ice sheet now.

Further, if we "don't bother", large segments of the tropics and subtropics will in fact become uninhabitable for practical purposes because of heat events.  That's just for starters, without considering the utter disruption of our food web.
Nothing like putting farmland under water to make it hard to farm on.  Plus 2 C from 1850 doesn't stop 10 meter sea level rise.  There looks to be a strong negative feedback loop that kicks in between where we are now and plus 1 C from current temps.

Our CO2 production is going to have some serious and inescapable consequences.  If we don't stop, it *WILL* be far worse.
Younger Dryas.  What is the cure for global cooling?

6roucho

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Re: The 2016/2017 freezing season
« Reply #1186 on: December 04, 2016, 10:39:15 PM »
It would be an even larger experiment with the biosphere than the one we're currently conducting if we were to increase C02 production to ward off the possibility of global cooling, since that would increase the rate of warming if the theory were wrong. Better to mitigate the risks we know we face, and try to save the world we have, than take irrevocable steps to mitigate small possibilities.
« Last Edit: December 04, 2016, 10:54:27 PM by 6roucho »

Iceismylife

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Re: The 2016/2017 freezing season
« Reply #1187 on: December 04, 2016, 10:51:17 PM »
...

So different interpretation, but yes I think that leads to a far too grim view that leads to a 'why bother trying' attitude. Changing 2025 to 2050 might be better but there simply isn't sharp cut off points allowing simple language like being suggested here.
Not why bother trying.  But what is the correct coarse of action? 


I was a bus driver in a past job.  The view of the correct traffic light (if red) was obscured if you were in a high profile vehicle. The one I was looking at was green.  When the correct traffic light came into view I saw it was red.  I hit the brakes hard.  It was clear that I wasn't going to stop for the intersection.  I wasn't going to T-bone anyone, (broad side collision) so I got off the brakes and onto the gas to clear the intersection as fast as I could.

If I was going to have T-boned someone I would've done anything I could've to avoid the collision and stay on the brakes.

Are we going to hit a Younger Dryas?


Isn't the effect of adding your Q&A
Q Are we going to have a younger dryas type event in the near future?  (by 2100?)
A Reasonably likely.

also tending to lead to a 'why bother trying' attitude?

(What has "cure for global cooling" got to do with anything being discussed?)
What happens if we dump a large amount of ice into the North Atlantic?  Global cooling?

Iceismylife

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Re: The 2016/2017 freezing season
« Reply #1188 on: December 04, 2016, 10:54:56 PM »
It would be an even larger experiment with the biosphere than the one we're currently conducting if we were to increase C02 production to ward off the possibility of global cooling, since that would of course increase the rate of warming if the theory were wrong. Better to mitigate the risks we know we face, and try to save the world we have, than take irrevocable steps to mitigate small possibilities.
But we can't save the world we have.  NOAA has issued a warning that we could face 10 feet (3.0508 m) sea level rise by 2050~2060

6roucho

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Re: The 2016/2017 freezing season
« Reply #1189 on: December 04, 2016, 11:11:58 PM »
It would be an even larger experiment with the biosphere than the one we're currently conducting if we were to increase C02 production to ward off the possibility of global cooling, since that would of course increase the rate of warming if the theory were wrong. Better to mitigate the risks we know we face, and try to save the world we have, than take irrevocable steps to mitigate small possibilities.
But we can't save the world we have.  NOAA has issued a warning that we could face 10 feet (3.0508 m) sea level rise by 2050~2060
'Could' is a big word. But yes, we may not be able to save the world we have. Our job then becomes to save as much of it as possible. There's no tipping point where continued damage becomes unimportant. The people living in *that* world will want to save as much as they can.

Regarding your theory, if the Younger Dryas was caused by freshwater pulses into the Arctic as a result of ice sheet melt, as seems to be the popular theory (http://www.giss.nasa.gov/research/briefs/gornitz_10/) then surely increasing C02 emissions now would increase the likelihood of such pulses occurring, and thus increase the likelihood of a Younger Dryas event beginning. So in order to try to save ourselves, we could bring about the very event we were avoiding, and in the process also lock in the worst impacts of warming.

« Last Edit: December 05, 2016, 01:06:52 AM by 6roucho »

DavidR

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Re: The 2016/2017 freezing season
« Reply #1190 on: December 04, 2016, 11:42:45 PM »
But we can't save the world we have.  NOAA has issued a warning that we could face 10 feet (3.0508 m) sea level rise by 2050~2060
Could you  provide a reference to this claim. It is difficult to consider an argument that  is just  based on unsubtantiated claims.

From the NASA paper above "A plausible upper bound estimate lies near 1 meter of ice melt by 2100, assuming an average deglacial rate — roughly 3 times the current global rate"
« Last Edit: December 04, 2016, 11:55:04 PM by DavidR »
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Tigertown

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Re: The 2016/2017 freezing season
« Reply #1191 on: December 04, 2016, 11:49:06 PM »
AbruptSLR pointed out to me in another thread that large pieces of ice take many years to melt. We were talking about shelves, but there is no reason to believe the same principle wouldn't apply to sheets or glaciers or whatever large sections of ice that end up sliding into the oceans. At the rate these would melt, more heat entering the system and becoming trapped in the atmosphere would likely outpace any cooling effect that the ice would provide. Whatever happened in the past happened in an atmosphere that lacked that same trapping ability.
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oren

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Re: The 2016/2017 freezing season
« Reply #1192 on: December 05, 2016, 12:38:28 AM »
I doubt a Younger Dryas type event could have a lasting global effect now with all the heat available in the oceans and atmosphere, even if a large meltwater output materialized. The huge Laurentide ice sheet was on a large continent with few outlets to the sea, therefore producing big pulses with long spacing between them. Now we are talking about less meltwater in total, coming from either Greenland with its many drainages and many sea outlets that will spread the effect around and mitigate it, or West Antarctica which might calve huge bergs that won't necessarily melt quickly enough to have a strong effect that creates its own feedback.
Iceismylife - a personal request: Considering that the freezing season thread has been hijacked by this discussion that you seem to be leading, could you please open a dedicated thread to discuss possible global cooling as well as other subjects that are not directly related to the freezing season?

Cate

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Re: The 2016/2017 freezing season
« Reply #1193 on: December 05, 2016, 01:34:10 AM »
Here's a reference for that NOAA "prediction" of 10 feet SLR by 2050/60. It's from a conference in San Diego in April 2016.

https://www.kcet.org/redefine/sea-level-rise-could-come-much-sooner-than-you-think

"....In a presentation at the Risk Management Society's RIMS 2016 conference in San Diego April 12, a top scientific official with the National Oceanic and Atmospheric Administration said that recent, as-yet-unpublished data from Antarctica suggests that sea levels could rise three meters — almost ten feet — by the middle of the century.

"Margaret Davidson, NOAA’s senior advisor for coastal inundation and resilience science and services, told conference attendees that "the latest field data out of West Antarctic is kind of an OMG thing.” Davidson said that data shows sea level rise could reach three meters by 2050 or 2060, a much steeper rise happening far sooner than even the most catastrophic scenarios currently available in peer-reviewed journals and the far more conservative estimates published by the Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change. That steep a rise in sea level would put significant parts of many California cities underwater in just two or three decades."

With apologies for continuing the hijack. We need to move this discussion elsewhere.

jdallen

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Re: The 2016/2017 freezing season
« Reply #1194 on: December 05, 2016, 02:33:25 AM »
Younger Dryas was driven in major part by massive outbreaks of melt from Canadian ice sheets.  No ice sheets, no Dryas, I think.
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AbruptSLR

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Re: The 2016/2017 freezing season
« Reply #1195 on: December 05, 2016, 03:21:17 AM »
Iceismylife - a personal request: Considering that the freezing season thread has been hijacked by this discussion that you seem to be leading, could you please open a dedicated thread to discuss possible global cooling as well as other subjects that are not directly related to the freezing season?

Instead of starting a new thread, you could add to the discuss already started in the thread entitled: "Hansen et al paper: 3+ meters SLR by 2100", in the Consequences folder.  It contains discuss both about abrupt sea level rise and Hansen's ice-climate interaction (see the attached image):

https://forum.arctic-sea-ice.net/index.php/topic,1327.0.html
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Adam Ash

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Re: The 2016/2017 freezing season
« Reply #1196 on: December 05, 2016, 06:40:20 AM »
I doubt a Younger Dryas type event could have a lasting global effect now......Now we are talking about less meltwater in total, coming from either Greenland with its many drainages and many sea outlets that will spread the effect around and mitigate it, or West Antarctica which might calve huge bergs that won't necessarily melt quickly enough to have a strong effect that creates its own feedback.

Oren, how does that work? 
1.How does Greenland having many sea outlets 'mitigate' the potential SLR?
2. How do melting icebergs contribute to SLR?  Calving bergs do not contribute to SLR because they are already afloat, although their calving may be a sign of faster disintegration of land-grounded glaciers.

oren

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Re: The 2016/2017 freezing season
« Reply #1197 on: December 05, 2016, 06:46:21 AM »
I doubt a Younger Dryas type event could have a lasting global effect now......Now we are talking about less meltwater in total, coming from either Greenland with its many drainages and many sea outlets that will spread the effect around and mitigate it, or West Antarctica which might calve huge bergs that won't necessarily melt quickly enough to have a strong effect that creates its own feedback.

Oren, how does that work? 
1.How does Greenland having many sea outlets 'mitigate' the potential SLR?
2. How do melting icebergs contribute to SLR?  Calving bergs do not contribute to SLR because they are already afloat, although their calving may be a sign of faster disintegration of land-grounded glaciers.
My post was about sudden global ocean surface cooling, not SLR. And it doesn't belong here anyway.

slow wing

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Re: The 2016/2017 freezing season
« Reply #1198 on: December 05, 2016, 10:08:07 AM »
A-Team, thanks very much for your continuing posts that have certainly helped with my understanding.

The bathymetry connection is fascinating.

So is it conceptually useful to separate some analyses into the 'deep' Arctic Basin and 'shallow' Arctic Basin, with an ocean depth scale of order 100m used for the partition?

Then 'shallow' corresponds largely to the Russian side as well as the CAA and peripheral seas on the Atlantic side. 'Deep' is most of the rest of the central Arctic Basin.

If 'shallow' then:
  - mixing processes such as waves and Ekman pumping - with characteristic depths scales in the tens of metres - can therefore reach over much of the ocean depth.
  - warm, heavy salty currents from the Atlantic and Pacific Oceans can still potentially mix with the surface layer of water, bringing heat and salinity to the ice at the surface.

If 'deep':
  - there is probably still a stable and persistent salinity gradient below of order 100 metres
  - the warm Atlantic and Pacific Ocean currents have already sunk to below that depth, and so below where they could potentially influence the sea ice.


Your wonderfully informative graphics in your post #1182
appear to show the ice having remained/formed preferentially over the 'deep' Arctic Basin and you have posted previously about the mixing and trapped heat retarding ice formation in - from memory - the ESS.

  With all the presumed mixing from storms this year, maybe the 'shallow' Arctic is in historically poor condition for ice formation and growth over the Winter? While the 'deep' Arctic might be expected to be less affected?
 
« Last Edit: December 05, 2016, 10:15:53 AM by slow wing »

meddoc

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Re: The 2016/2017 freezing season
« Reply #1199 on: December 05, 2016, 12:02:25 PM »
Here's the comparison for the SSTs for today and a Year ago- North Atlantic, Svalbard, Kara, Barents are boiling