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Tigertown

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Ocean Temps
« on: July 21, 2016, 03:19:47 PM »
Couldn't find a thread on this;apologies if I missed one.
A while back it was thought that warming had paused, only to find out that the oceans are a great heat sink and in particular, the Indian Ocean had stored 70% of the ocean heat gain. Now, everytime you look at an SST map or anomaly map, it will scare the daylights out of you, if even only you have a basic understanding of how science and weather and climate work together. If nothing else, you know  that the heat along with acidification is killing life off. Coral reefs are probably the most publicized of these. I guess there is need to make mention at least of deadly algae blooms on the rise. Besides all this, my biggest question is: How much more heat can be stored in the waters before it starts heating everything else to an even greater extent. I mean if the oceans have been a buffer up to a point, how bad would it be at the moment had that buffer not been available and how bad will it be without it when it reaches capacity or at least absorbs less heat. 950 F off the coast of Florida in one place a day or two ago making a new record. There have been hot spots all over, especially the S. Pacific. Hardly makes the news until a storm passes through one of these areas and "blows" up into a monster. Enough of my input; I submit now to greater minds.
« Last Edit: July 21, 2016, 04:36:47 PM by Tigertown »

Tigertown

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Re: Ocean Temps
« Reply #1 on: October 26, 2016, 07:00:30 AM »
« Last Edit: October 30, 2016, 07:06:20 AM by Tigertown »

Bruce Steele

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Re: Ocean Temps
« Reply #2 on: October 26, 2016, 08:03:56 AM »
Tigertown, I can't get your Yale /360 article link to load. Maybe you could try it again ?
Because we are a year + down the road from  2015 data I do think some of that heat has moved from the Western pacific oceans back into the atmosphere via our recent El Niño .  Also expect Western Pacific heat to rebuild until the next El Niño , my expectation anyhow.

johnm33

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Tigertown

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Re: Ocean Temps
« Reply #4 on: October 26, 2016, 05:19:28 PM »
Thank you johnm33 for fixing that link. I will be on the lookout for more recent research. I have read in the last couple of days that some of this warmer water is ending up in Antarctica via ocean currents and accelerating bottom melt there. As the Yale article said, the heat took years to build up and when and if heat is discharged it will take a long time.

Tigertown

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Re: Ocean Temps
« Reply #5 on: October 30, 2016, 06:57:03 AM »
Article here focuses mostly on the effects on sea life from oceans warming.


http://news.nationalgeographic.com/2016/09/oceans-warming-global-environment-climate/
« Last Edit: October 30, 2016, 07:05:12 AM by Tigertown »

Tigertown

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Re: Ocean Temps
« Reply #6 on: November 01, 2016, 02:43:06 AM »
Well, I promised to look for more updated articles concerning the oceans and heat storage. It's funny how you can google something every imaginable way and it never shows up, but then out of the blue as I was looking for something else;  VOILA!
Found this in a little'o obscure newspaper called the New York Times. That's probably why it was so hard to find.

www.nytimes.com/interactive/2016/09/12/science/earth/ocean-warming-climate-change.html?_r=0

If you want something deeper, her is where the NYT's got their info.

https://portals.iucn.org/library/sites/library/files/documents/2016-046_0.pdf
« Last Edit: November 01, 2016, 04:31:52 AM by Tigertown »

Tigertown

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Re: Ocean Temps
« Reply #7 on: November 02, 2016, 06:01:07 AM »
Introduction to Argo.

 

Tigertown

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Re: Ocean Temps
« Reply #8 on: March 11, 2017, 07:02:13 AM »
https://www.theguardian.com/environment/climate-consensus-97-per-cent/2017/mar/10/earths-oceans-are-warming-13-faster-than-thought-and-accelerating


It is these changes that affect storms, such as the deluges that have recently affected California, or which have led storms to produce “thousand year floods” as has been seen in the Carolinas with Hurricane Matthew, or the Louisiana floods in August last year, or the Houston floods in April, and so forth. This kind of knowledge and understanding has profound consequences.

nicibiene

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Re: Ocean Temps
« Reply #9 on: March 11, 2017, 09:29:25 AM »
Thank you, @Tigertown. The Guardian seems to be the only journal where to find news of that kind... Yesterday evening I found that only a few german papers picked the incredible CO2 denial of Priutt, and none of the few publications offered the opportunity to leave a comment or start a discussion.

Usually I like to grab into that discussions. Always nice to get some other hints when reading comments:
`In fact, the climate models underestimated the rate of sea level rise because the rapid melting of the ice sheets and glaciers was not incorporated in the last IPCC report. (It was left out because the data were not considered sufficiently robust).`
Astonishing !
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gerontocrat

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Re: Ocean Temps
« Reply #10 on: March 11, 2017, 10:59:26 AM »
This is how I look at AGW.

 One can look at an el nino as the oceans burping out some of the excess stored heat which can then radiate out into space. A la nina can then be seen as accelerating heating of the biosphere - cool SSTs mean greater heat transfer from the atmosphere into longterm storage in the oceans. i.e. warming of the atmosphere is largely a side-effect of ocean heating.

Loss of sea ice exaggerates the effect on Arctic atmospheric temperatures, leadiing to positive feedback being even more heat captured by the oceans.

This new report on ocean heating is fairly disastrous. I guess we have to wait for the climate modellers to plug the data in.
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Cate

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Re: Ocean Temps
« Reply #11 on: March 11, 2017, 12:30:51 PM »

Tigertown

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Re: Ocean Temps
« Reply #12 on: March 19, 2017, 11:31:06 PM »
Another RS article that applies here.
The Glowing Waters of the Arabian Sea are Killing off Ocean Life

https://robertscribbler.com/2017/03/19/the-glowing-waters-of-the-arabian-sea-are-killing-off-ocean-life/

But the human-caused climate change that is spurring the massive noctiluca blooms in the Arabian Sea is bringing on these new conditions over the mere course of a few decades.     

 The oceans beneath the noctiluca mats are now increasingly robbed of life. Oxygen levels are plummeting.

nicibiene

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Re: Ocean Temps
« Reply #13 on: March 20, 2017, 07:51:59 AM »
http://bigstory.ap.org/article/39cdba54f35548ffb0914094343bb0c6/growing-algae-bloom-arabian-sea-tied-climate-change  :'(

The satellite technology has enabled scientists to link the algae to higher levels of air and water pollution in recent decades, but Bontempi said questions remain. "We know that our Earth is changing," she said. "It may be in a direction we might not like."

Scientists based at the Lamont-Doherty Earth Observatory at Columbia University trace Oman's blooms to melting ice in the Himalayas. Less ice has raised temperatures in South Asia and strengthened the Indian Ocean's southwest monsoon. As this weather front moves across the Arabian Sea every year, it churned up oxygen-poor water thick with nutrients that have fueled the rise of a 1.2-billion-year old algae called noctiluca scintillans.  [\quote]

“We cannot solve our problems with the same thinking we used when we created them.” –“Learn from yesterday, live for today, hope for tomorrow. The important thing is not to stop questioning.” Albert Einstein

Tigertown

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Re: Ocean Temps
« Reply #14 on: June 12, 2017, 07:21:46 AM »
A little area of water just south of Hainan, China seems to be the warmest ocean water in the world at this moment, at 31.8oC. There are some other hot spots very nearby, though.

https://earth.nullschool.net/#current/ocean/primary/waves/overlay=sea_surface_temp/orthographic=-241.78,19.04,620/loc=109.963,17.377

Or not.

https://earth.nullschool.net/#current/ocean/primary/waves/overlay=sea_surface_temp/orthographic=-308.96,26.21,620/loc=58.681,24.432

Forest Dweller

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Re: Ocean Temps
« Reply #15 on: June 12, 2017, 08:26:39 AM »

Tigertown

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Re: Ocean Temps
« Reply #16 on: June 14, 2017, 05:37:14 AM »
There are positive SST anomalies all over. Some off the East coast of North america are as high as 7oC and up. You can also see some negative ones that probably were caused by melting ice. The area below Greenland where the cold and warm waters meet seems to be the birthplace of a good many storms.

wili

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Re: Ocean Temps
« Reply #17 on: June 26, 2017, 11:44:45 PM »
https://www.theguardian.com/environment/climate-consensus-97-per-cent/2017/jun/26/new-study-confirms-the-oceans-are-warming-rapidly

New study confirms the oceans are warming rapidly

Although there’s some uncertainty in the distribution among Earth’s ocean basins, there’s no question that the ocean is heating rapidly
"A force de chercher de bonnes raisons, on en trouve; on les dit; et après on y tient, non pas tant parce qu'elles sont bonnes que pour ne pas se démentir." Choderlos de Laclos "You struggle to come up with some valid reasons, then cling to them, not because they're good, but just to not back down."

oren

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Re: Ocean Temps
« Reply #18 on: June 27, 2017, 07:49:42 AM »
 Intereting article. It sheds light on the 1940s warming that always seemed to me like some strange war-related artefact.
In the paper, we describe perhaps the three most important factors that affect ocean-temperature accuracy. First, sensors can have biases (they can be “hot” or “cold”), and these biases can change over time. An example of biases was identified in the 1940s. Then, many ocean temperature measurements were made using buckets that gathered water from ships. Sensors put into the buckets would give the water temperature. Then, a new temperature sensing approach started to come online where temperatures were measured using ship hull-based sensors at engine intake ports. It turns out that bucket measurements are slightly cooler than measurements made using hull sensors, which are closer to the engine of the ship.

During World War II, the British Navy cut back on its measurements (using buckets) and the US Navy expanded its measurements (using hull sensors); consequently, a sharp warming in oceans was seen in the data. But this warming was an artifact of the change from buckets to hull sensors. After the war, when the British fleet re-expanded its bucket measurements, the ocean temperatures seemed to fall a bit. Again, this was an artifact from the data collection. Other such biases and artifacts arose throughout the years as oceanographers have updated measurement equipment. If you want the true rate of ocean temperature change, you have to remove these biases.

Bruce Steele

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Re: Ocean Temps
« Reply #19 on: June 27, 2017, 09:01:23 AM »
The water temperature at Red Dog dock, Kotzebue Sound has continued to rise. It hit 47.8F today which is higher than water temperatures at Nome. The water temperatures at Red Dog dock have risen by more than 17 degrees in less than two days. Air temperatures hit 60 degrees.

http://www.ndbc.noaa.gov/station_page.php?station=RDDA2

gerontocrat

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Re: Ocean Temps
« Reply #20 on: January 19, 2018, 11:17:06 AM »
Thought I would revive this topic as the internet on my mobile phone showed that https://www.nodc.noaa.gov/OC5/3M_HEAT_CONTENT/ had updated the global heat content graphs to December 2017, showing the continuing strong upward trend, and reversing the downward blip

But lo and behold, on my PC the same website only has data to September 2017. Ho hum, try later.
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gerontocrat

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Re: Ocean Temps
« Reply #21 on: January 19, 2018, 09:49:43 PM »
Despite not having the latest quarter's data from NOAA's NODC on Global Ocean Heat Content, I've been thinking. (Sorry)

There was a recent study in nature saying that the atmospheric response to increasing CO2 might be less prone to violent change than thought.

Thinks I, what about the oceans ? Ignored again ?

The oceans as a whole have a capacity as a heat sink some 1,000+ times that of the atmosphere.
The oceans per cubic metre have a capacity as a heat sink some 3,000+ times that of a cubic metre of atmosphere.

The oceans have been absorbing vast amounts of heat, which if released all at once (which they will not, of course) raise atmospheric temperatures to well over disaster level.

My guess is that it will be ocean heat that finally does for Arctic Sea Ice and major destruction of large parts of the Greenland and Antarctic ice sheets from below.

The oceans increased capture of excess energy seems to match the increase in CO2 ppm well, I cannot find anything on google which talks about any correlation between CO2 ppm and increasing heat in the oceans.

BUT it still seems the global warming debate is captured by the atmosphere.

- END OF COMPLAINT -

attached:- some environmental arithmetic,
Global Ocean Heat Content image
Mauna Loa graph
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gerontocrat

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Re: Ocean Temps
« Reply #22 on: January 19, 2018, 10:38:35 PM »
PS: To get a better idea of the energy acquired by the oceans in recent years:-

ENERGY ACQUIRED BY OCEANS SINCE ABOUT 1985 in Joules            
Depth 0 to 700 metres   1.5E+23 = 41,667,000,000 Gigawatt hours   
Depth 0 to 2000 metres   2.3E+23 = 63,889,000,000 Gigawatt hours

Eon Musk's mega battery's capacity in S. Australia is 100 Megawatt hours.
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Sleepy

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Re: Ocean Temps
« Reply #23 on: January 20, 2018, 09:51:32 AM »
2017 was the warmest year on record for the global ocean, according to an updated ocean analysis from Institute of Atmospheric Physics/Chinese Academy of Science (IAP/CAS).

https://phys.org/news/2018-01-warmest-year-global-ocean.html
Omnia mirari, etiam tritissima.

Bernard

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Re: Ocean Temps
« Reply #24 on: January 20, 2018, 12:38:22 PM »
PS: To get a better idea of the energy acquired by the oceans in recent years:-

ENERGY ACQUIRED BY OCEANS SINCE ABOUT 1985 in Joules            
Depth 0 to 700 metres   1.5E+23 = 41,667,000,000 Gigawatt hours   
Depth 0 to 2000 metres   2.3E+23 = 63,889,000,000 Gigawatt hours

Eon Musk's mega battery's capacity in S. Australia is 100 Megawatt hours.

Also to compare with the Total Primary Energy Supply, a measure of worldwide human production/consumption of energy, all sources added. For 2013, according to WP, it was 1.575E+17 Wh, or 1.575E+8 GWh.
The above figure represent, for each year, more than 10 times the TPES (correct me if I am wrong).
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_energy_consumption

gerontocrat

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Re: Ocean Temps
« Reply #25 on: January 20, 2018, 02:40:58 PM »

Also to compare with the Total Primary Energy Supply, a measure of worldwide human production/consumption of energy, all sources added. For 2013, according to WP, it was 1.575E+17 Wh, or 1.575E+8 GWh.
The above figure represent, for each year, more than 10 times the TPES (correct me if I am wrong).
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_energy_consumption

Hullo Bernard, you beat me to it. By the time I thought about it I was in the pub. (table below)

Also all that additional heat has over the last 30 years raised the temperature of the oceans (average 0 to 2000 metres) by a staggering (?) 0.1 degree centigrade. (See graphs)

The next thing I fancy a look at is a comparison with energy used to melt sea ice. That should be interesting. It is all to get a handle on the context of all the data flying around.
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Bernard

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Re: Ocean Temps
« Reply #26 on: January 20, 2018, 02:56:23 PM »
By the time I thought about it I was in the pub.

Ha! Happy to see my own computation was correct  ;)

Meanwhile, I made another impressive one over my coffee. Given that the fusion enthalpy of ice is 333.55 J/g, 2.3E+23 J is potentially able to melt (at 0°C) 6.9E+14 tons of ice, representing about 7.7E+14 m3, or 770,000 km3 of ice. This represents a layer of about 360m thick if spread over Greenland. Or a significant 3% of the total volume of ice in Antarctica.
« Last Edit: January 20, 2018, 03:02:56 PM by Bernard »

gerontocrat

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Re: Ocean Temps
« Reply #27 on: January 20, 2018, 03:13:56 PM »
By the time I thought about it I was in the pub.

Ha! Happy to see my own computation was correct  ;)

Meanwhile, I made another impressive one over my coffee. Given that the fusion enthalpy of ice is 333.55 J/g, 2.3E+23 J is potentially able to melt (at 0°C) 6.9E+14 tons of ice, representing about 7.7E+14 m3, or 770,000 km3 of ice. This represents a layer of about 360m thick if spread over Greenland. Or a significant 3% of the total volume of ice in Antarctica.
Show off !

My random thought is that by burning fossil fuels to produce an amount of energy somewhat less than total energy production (to produce CO2) this allows at least 10 times that amount of energy to be captured by the oceans. How efficient is that! Isn't mankind clever ! A pity the energy is not really useable by mankind.
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Lord M Vader

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Re: Ocean Temps
« Reply #28 on: January 20, 2018, 03:47:53 PM »
NOAA has updated the OHC data for the reminder of 2017. As is clearly seen, the heat release during the last El Niño has regained and is now higher than it was before El Niño 2014-2016.

Bernard

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Re: Ocean Temps
« Reply #29 on: January 20, 2018, 04:15:11 PM »
Show off !
Jealous ! ;D
I must confess I got a little help from an old friend
http://www.datamath.org/Sci/Galaxy/TI67Galaxy.htm
25 years old, never changed the battery  :)

gerontocrat

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Re: Ocean Temps
« Reply #30 on: January 20, 2018, 08:59:39 PM »
Show off !
Jealous ! ;D
I must confess I got a little help from an old friend
http://www.datamath.org/Sci/Galaxy/TI67Galaxy.htm
25 years old, never changed the battery  :)
Blasted scientists. Have you a slide rule hiding somewhere as well ?

LAST COMPARISON (I think)
COMPARING GLOBAL OCEAN HEAT CONTENT ANNUAL GAIN 1985 to 2017 WITH ENERGY USED IN ANNUAL ARCTIC SEA ICE MELT -

background - quoted from Polar Science Center- PIOMAS Arctic Sea Ice Volume Reanalysis
                    http://psc.apl.uw.edu/research/projects/arctic-sea-ice-volume-anomaly/

ARCTIC SEA ICE ONLY

It takes energy to melt sea ice. How much energy? The energy required to melt the 16,400 Km3 of ice that are lost every year (1979-2010 average) from April to September as part of the natural annual cycle is about 5 x 10^21 Joules.

To melt the additional 280 km3 of sea ice, the amount we have have been losing on an annual basis based on PIOMAS calculations, it takes roughly 8.6 x 10^19 Joules.

Comparing this with annual average ocean heat gain (which is less than the current rate) produces the following results :-

RATIO OF AVERAGE ANNUAL OCEAN HEAT GAIN  TO ENERGY USED IN ANNUAL ICE MELT MARCH TO SEPT      
- 0 to 700 metres   1   
- 0 to 2000 metres   2   

RATIO OF AVERAGE ANNUAL OCEAN HEAT GAIN  TO ENERGY USED FOR ANNUAL  PERMANENT ICE LOSS       
- 0 to 700 metres   58   
- 0 to 2000 metres   89   


It is just as well not a lot of that heat gain ends up in the Arctic. Mind you, new research (often picked up by and explained by AbruptSLR) suggests that the attack of increased ocean temperatures at depth on the underside of ice shelves and glaciers at both ends of the earth is accelerating.
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