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Buddy

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Re: The Trump Presidency (was "Presidential Poll")
« Reply #1101 on: January 31, 2017, 04:15:58 AM »
The vote for AG Jeff Sessions now. Scones a very big deal.  Things could spin out of control in an unknown way after firing of temp AG tonight.

I would not put a MASS EXODUS of many in the government beyond reason.  I'm talking about non-political sorts of positions.  Also.... now that Obama has tip toed into the waster...he will take a larger step into the conversation within the next week.

Trump will continue to spin out of control as more pressure is applied by the public and press.  And more Republicans will see him for what he is.  A psychopath.
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pileus

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Re: The Trump Presidency (was "Presidential Poll")
« Reply #1102 on: January 31, 2017, 04:28:28 AM »
No surprise that Trump fired the AG. He had to, or he would have been seen as vulnerable.  Courts will continue to grind the travel ban and other issues.

Beyond the claims of crisis by the talking heads, the biggest takeaway from this and prior actions:  these folks act FAST.  On everything.  The quick action on the AG shows you they don't change for evolving situations.  This is breathtaking and radically different relative to established norms among the branches and departments and agencies.  It suggests philosophy and the perception of control rules over deliberation of merits and consideration of optics.  How do you think this is going to play with a geopolitical situation or incident.  They will use the same approach, and something is going to end badly.

What JimD is saying with the ASLR repost is essentially if you have the intelligence community provide the solution to the current president, then that same solution can be done to the next president and so on.  The intelligence community becomes the center of power, the "decider".  Democracy in America goes over the event horizon.

Best to leave that in the toolbox.  But after a four decade stint in DC I know there are some of the most fervent true believers in the American experiment and the founding documents there, understand what Trump could mean and likely won't stay neutral if it becomes the last option.

Then it would be a matter of trying to put that genie away, but JimD is likely correct that it can't be done.

pileus

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Re: The Trump Presidency (was "Presidential Poll")
« Reply #1103 on: January 31, 2017, 04:47:13 AM »
But if everything fails and everyone folds, Trump is going to have a hard time with turning the screws towards true autocracy.  Americans have generally become jaded and absorbed and distracted by their day to day lives, and managing their various online personas.  Irregardless of political affiliation, they expect government to be there but largely in the background.  Continued attempts to put the executive branch as a constant monitoring and controlling and literally dictating force in daily life, will be met with fierce resistance.  The irony is that the Trump line is less govt/less regulations/less controls, while the reality would be overt control by the exec branch of what we perceive as our fundamental rights and a narrowing of what is allowed.  Pretty good chance people at a critical mass would grind commerce to a halt, and many would be willing to fall in the streets before giving in to honest to goodness totalitarianism.  Trump has the big mo but that will come to an end soon.

Buddy

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Re: The Trump Presidency (was "Presidential Poll")
« Reply #1104 on: January 31, 2017, 04:58:48 AM »
I don't think that Trump has the mo.  I think he is actively spinning out of control...trying to stop the mo that the public has.  Wait till April 29th.  If any of the rogue POTUS twitter acct is to be believed.......and it HAS mirrored what ultimately happened....the White House is an absolute madhouse right now.  Waiting for more defections and the reality setting in that Bannon and Trump have to go.
FOX (RT) News....."The Trump Channel.....where truth and journalism are dead."

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Re: The Trump Presidency (was "Presidential Poll")
« Reply #1105 on: January 31, 2017, 05:12:19 AM »
Trump is now starting to look like "impeached man walking".  He better hope that economic news doesn't sour or he is really going to come under pressure.  We still have a long process ahead....but he is playing all the wrong cards, and making the types of errors one makes who is under too much pressure.

When you have bad decision making skills like Donnie....your days are numbered.  And considering the cast of clowns around him.....he has NO CHANCE.  This isn't like the campaign where he could lie and promise his way out of it.  Now he has to execute...and he can't.
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Re: The Trump Presidency (was "Presidential Poll")
« Reply #1106 on: January 31, 2017, 05:23:10 AM »
Although there could be nuance WRT timing for the intelligence community solution.  If the IC acts before noon Jan 20, then indeed it can't be taken back and the experiment is likely over.  But with the IC not acting to this point, it is not incorrect to say the IC has respected the voting process and the electoral college, and the transition of power.  If the IC changes the will of the vote after observing and assessing impacts of the executive, it stills leaves the possibility of containing the genie because those first three processes, or the "means", were respected.  If the means didn't deliver the end, or the will of the vote/electoral college, then perhaps  there is a way to reset the IC.  JimD would waive all this off, likely rightfully so.

budmantis

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Re: The Trump Presidency (was "Presidential Poll")
« Reply #1107 on: January 31, 2017, 06:21:56 AM »
ASLR: In regards to JimD's post from 1/14/17, six days before Trump was inaugurated, I have some observations:

1. The Deep State certainly hasn't come into existence recently. Therefore, all Presidents in the past thirty years have not faced such a threat. Which means either they were part of this apparatus or were not perceived as a threat to them.

2. Trump is trying to rule as an autocrat would, a surefire recipe for eventual removal from office by either impeachment or being found unfit to serve. Either way, his time in office will be short. Why not just let him implode instead of trying to take him out? The only reason has to be that the deep state finds him such a threat to their plans that they deem it necessary to remove him from office quickly.

3. Those of us that didn't vote for Trump cant stand the guy and find the present situation intolerable. Speaking for myself, I want him and his ilk out, but not before he's seen for what he is by his own supporters, otherwise he'll be considered a martyr for their cause, and their cause will continue. As there is a significant minority that are diehard Trumpsters, it is in everyone's interest that these folk see him for what he is.

4. If trying to stop the deep state from removing Trump by a coup, what can we do (if anything) to stop them?

« Last Edit: January 31, 2017, 06:28:20 AM by budmantis »

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Re: The Trump Presidency (was "Presidential Poll")
« Reply #1108 on: January 31, 2017, 09:29:57 AM »
 :o :'(

budmantis

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Re: The Trump Presidency (was "Presidential Poll")
« Reply #1109 on: January 31, 2017, 02:51:05 PM »
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/jeff-sessions-sally-yates-attorney-general_us_589014e3e4b0c90efeffc842?

Jeff Sessions Had Warned Sally Yates: You’ll Have To Say No To The President

“Do you think the Attorney General has the responsibility to say no to the President if he asks for something that’s improper?” the senator asked her.

In the above linked article Sen. Jeff Sessions asked Yates this question at her confirmation hearing in 2015. Its ironic that Sessions will likely be the next Atty. General.
« Last Edit: January 31, 2017, 02:57:03 PM by budmantis »

budmantis

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Re: The Trump Presidency (was "Presidential Poll")
« Reply #1110 on: January 31, 2017, 03:17:01 PM »
http://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-38804462

Trump voters say US president is 'doing a fabulous job'

In this BBC News video, people who voted for Trump were asked how he is doing thus far.

Buddy

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Re: The Trump Presidency (was "Presidential Poll")
« Reply #1111 on: January 31, 2017, 05:21:52 PM »
I just realized there will be an interesting "trio" of events on April 29th.  And the first one....may take some of the people who were GOING to go to the dinner......away.

1)  People's Climate March

2)  Annual White House Correspondents dinner

3)  Samantha Bee with "Not The White House Correspondents Dinner"

 "http://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/samantha-bee-trump-roast_us_588f476be4b0b065cbbd0303
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AbruptSLR

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Re: The Trump Presidency (was "Presidential Poll")
« Reply #1112 on: January 31, 2017, 05:25:46 PM »
What JimD is saying with the ASLR repost is essentially if you have the intelligence community provide the solution to the current president, then that same solution can be done to the next president and so on.  The intelligence community becomes the center of power, the "decider".  Democracy in America goes over the event horizon.

If JimD is correct that the 'Deep State' has a major influence on the Republican Establishment congressmen, then they should be able to convince Ryan and McConnell to enact legislation to countermand a great many of Trump's executive measures, effectively leaving him neutered, without disrupting our perception of how our democracy works.  But as you pointed out previously Ryan has no spine and McConnell is a traitor to rational thought.
« Last Edit: January 31, 2017, 05:58:04 PM by AbruptSLR »
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AbruptSLR

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Re: The Trump Presidency (was "Presidential Poll")
« Reply #1113 on: January 31, 2017, 05:45:25 PM »
ASLR: In regards to JimD's post from 1/14/17, six days before Trump was inaugurated, I have some observations:

While I have posted some links to articles that mention the 'Deep State', I know relatively little about this matter other than it was supposedly formed with the guidance of the IC before JFK got elected and that some individuals believe that the 'Deep State' played a role in JFK's removal while leaving the trappings of democracy in place.

If you have more questions about the 'Deep State' I suggest that you reply to JimD directly as he has stated that he was part of the IC.
“It is not the strongest or the most intelligent who will survive but those who can best manage change.”
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Neven

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Re: The Trump Presidency (was "Presidential Poll")
« Reply #1114 on: January 31, 2017, 06:38:46 PM »
Some words of wisdom from Bill Burr (with lots of swearing), explaining that more needs to be fought than just Donald Trump:

! No longer available
The enemy is within
Don't confuse me with him

E. Smith

budmantis

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Re: The Trump Presidency (was "Presidential Poll")
« Reply #1115 on: January 31, 2017, 06:54:40 PM »
Some words of wisdom from Bill Burr (with lots of swearing), explaining that more needs to be fought than just Donald Trump:

! No longer available

Bleeping right he swears a lot. (LOL). Thanks for sharing this Neven, and he is right, we got what we deserved.

Neven

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Re: The Trump Presidency (was "Presidential Poll")
« Reply #1116 on: January 31, 2017, 07:03:56 PM »
Bleeping right he swears a lot. (LOL). Thanks for sharing this Neven, and he is right, we got what we deserved.

he also explains well, I believe, that as long as Americans don't get why they deserve it and keep running from red to blue and vice versa, it's not going to change. So, not only do liberals need to fight Trump and corporate Republicans, they also need to fight the corporate Democrats (the Clintons, Obama and their ilk) and work together with real Republicans and Tea Party people (like when the latter decided to go for solar panels somewhere, because they were sick of utility abuse) and whoever else who is not part of some astroturf propaganda or a corporate puppet.

Putting up resistance against the system that it is what it is because there's no limit to how much the mega-wealthy can own, that's the real fight. In fact, it is paramount that you get the mega-wealthy on board as well, because this system isn't in their interest either. They're just a social class, and as human as we all are. Some of them are assholes, a lot of them are not, just like in every group.
The enemy is within
Don't confuse me with him

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Neven

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Re: The Trump Presidency (was "Presidential Poll")
« Reply #1118 on: January 31, 2017, 09:20:07 PM »
I just post the YT link and remove the s in https. I don't know why it then says 'not available', and then appears again. I should know it, but I don't.  ::)
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Re: The Trump Presidency (was "Presidential Poll")
« Reply #1119 on: January 31, 2017, 09:40:38 PM »
The linked article is entitled: "There are three ways to revoke a US president’s executive orders, and they rarely succeed".  It is good to better understand the various tools available to resist Trump's counterproductive executive orders/measures.

https://qz.com/898683/can-an-executive-order-be-revoked/

Extract: "Can an executive order be revoked? There are three ways—but none of them commonly occur, at least not while the president who issues the orders is still in office.

1.   The president can revoke, modify, or supersede any executive order: Presidents often undo the executive orders of their predecessors, but they have rarely retracted or overridden their own executive orders. “This early on, to admit that you’ve made such a huge mistake would be very politically damaging,” says Alvin Tillery, an associate professor of political science at Northwestern University. “And I think that the response with protests and so on, it would just give further fodder to people who want to challenge [Trump’s] policy positions.”

2.   Congress can revoke, modify, or supersede an executive order if the president was acting under authority granted by Congress: But if Congress makes changes that the president disagrees with, it can expect to face a presidential veto, which it could only override with a two-thirds vote in both the House and the Senate. One 2006 study (pdf) cited by the Congressional Research Service found that only about 4% of executive orders have been modified by Congress. “Usually when they do act, it’s to provide funding to an executive order, or to build an executive order into a statutory framework,” says William Howell, a professor of American politics at the University of Chicago, who has written extensively about executive power. “They fortify an executive order.”

3.   Courts can declare an executive order illegal or unconstitutional. Barring several notable exceptions however, the courts do not regularly overturn presidential actions. In Howell’s book Power without Persuasion: The Politics of Direct Presidential Action, he attempted to identify every court case that has challenged an executive order between 1945 and 1998. In 83% of them, the courts ruled in favor of the president."
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DrTskoul

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Re: The Trump Presidency (was "Presidential Poll")
« Reply #1120 on: January 31, 2017, 10:29:12 PM »
Bleeping right he swears a lot. (LOL). Thanks for sharing this Neven, and he is right, we got what we deserved.

he also explains well, I believe, that as long as Americans don't get why they deserve it and keep running from red to blue and vice versa, it's not going to change. So, not only do liberals need to fight Trump and corporate Republicans, they also need to fight the corporate Democrats (the Clintons, Obama and their ilk) and work together with real Republicans and Tea Party people (like when the latter decided to go for solar panels somewhere, because they were sick of utility abuse) and whoever else who is not part of some astroturf propaganda or a corporate puppet.

Putting up resistance against the system that it is what it is because there's no limit to how much the mega-wealthy can own, that's the real fight. In fact, it is paramount that you get the mega-wealthy on board as well, because this system isn't in their interest either. They're just a social class, and as human as we all are. Some of them are assholes, a lot of them are not, just like in every group.

Tea party? I don't feel working with anti-scienve people....

AbruptSLR

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Re: The Trump Presidency (was "Presidential Poll")
« Reply #1121 on: January 31, 2017, 11:14:32 PM »
The linked article is entitled: "The psychology of why 94 deaths from terrorism are scarier than 301,797 deaths from guns". While this article focuses on explaining why Trump's anti-terrorist measures will prove ineffective; I would also like to comment on the US Publics number one fear of a corrupt government (see the attached image).  The article makes it clear that emotions alter the public's perception of risk and in my view the US public let their fear of the existing establishment distorted their perception of the true risk of electing Donald Trump.

https://qz.com/898207/the-psychology-of-why-americans-are-more-scared-of-terrorism-than-guns-though-guns-are-3210-times-likelier-to-kill-them/

Extract: "Risk perception (pdf) used to be based on an analytical equation: you multiply the probability of an event by the potential damage of its outcome. But Paul Slovic, a professor of psychology at the University of Oregon, understood the powerful role of emotions in decision-making and altered that equation, noting that many things affect how we perceive risk:

•   do you trust the person you are dealing with
•   control vs. lack of control (lack of control inflates risk perceptions)
•   is it catastrophic or chronic (catastrophic inflates risk perceptions)
•   does it incite dread or anger (dread inflates risk perceptions)
•   uncertainty (lack of knowledge about something inflates risk perceptions)

“Most people do not distinguish well between a one-in-a-thousand risk and a one-in-a-million risk,” said Mark Egan, an associate advisor at the Behavioral Insights Group in London.

President Trump may believe he is responding to people’s outsized fears of terrorism. Unfortunately, his hastily arranged executive order won’t work—not least because, as the Wall Street Journal found (paywall), “of 180 people charged with jihadist terrorism-related crimes or who died before being charged” only 11 came from the seven countries banned in Trump’s order. He didn’t ban people from Saudi Arabia, Lebanon, the United Arab Emirates, or Egypt—the home countries of the 19 perpetrators of the 9/11 attacks."
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pileus

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Re: The Trump Presidency (was "Presidential Poll")
« Reply #1122 on: January 31, 2017, 11:59:02 PM »
Here is a clip showing Trump introducing the coming cyber security initiative.  The intent is to draw your attention to Trump's introduction of Rudy Giuliani, and the salient portion can be found at about 3:20 to 3:45 in the clip. The president introduces Giuliani, and then asks where he is.  See if you find anything of note or concern with this exchange.  It could be indicative of a visual acuity issue, or perhaps something cognitive.


AbruptSLR

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Re: The Trump Presidency (was "Presidential Poll")
« Reply #1123 on: February 01, 2017, 02:45:42 AM »
The linked article is entitled: “In Trump’s Early Days, News Media Finds Competing Narratives”.  In this regard, it is good to watch both sides of the media divide on Trump coverage.

https://www.nytimes.com/2017/01/31/business/trump-news-media.html?_r=0


Extract: “For those devouring news about the administration, the choice of narratives has become starker, with brighter lines drawn around the content. For the readers and viewers, it’s follow the narrative of your choice, and be wary of the great chasm between.

Among far-right organizations, the tone in the last few days has been predictably defiant and jubilant, reflecting their position on the conservative spectrum. Several seized on Mr. Trump’s accusation that Senator Chuck Schumer, Democrat of New York, had shed “fake tears” over the ban. The Federalist, a right-leaning web magazine, published an article under the headline, “No, Trump’s Immigration Order Isn’t Racist or Reminiscent of the Holocaust.”

After Mr. Trump fired Sally Q. Yates, the acting attorney general, on Monday night for refusing to carry out his immigration order, Breitbart News went with the spirited headline, “You’re Fired: Trump Fires AG for ‘Betrayal.’” The conservative Daily Caller called Ms. Yates’s decision a “brazen act of defiance that cost her the post.””
“It is not the strongest or the most intelligent who will survive but those who can best manage change.”
― Leon C. Megginson

logicmanPatrick

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Re: The Trump Presidency (was "Presidential Poll")
« Reply #1124 on: February 01, 2017, 04:56:11 AM »
Resistance from within: Federal workers push back against Trump

Asked whether federal workers are dissenting in ways that go beyond previous party changes in the White House, Tom Malinowski, who was President Barack Obama’s assistant secretary of state for democracy, human rights and labor, said, sarcastically: “Is it unusual? . . . There’s nothing unusual about the entire national security bureaucracy of the United States feeling like their commander in chief is a threat to U.S. national security. That happens all the time. It’s totally usual. Nothing to worry about.”

Washington Post
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pileus

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Re: The Trump Presidency (was "Presidential Poll")
« Reply #1125 on: February 01, 2017, 06:23:16 AM »
So we have 11 days of observation in the bank for President Trump.  It's important to develop an evolving portrait of his psyche and behaviors.  He his been very consistent from day 1.  Unwavering and very quick to react.  Deliberately avoids collaboration across the branches.  Trigger finger to deploy law enforcement (Customs).  No respect for established process and norms.  No apologies, continually shifts blame.  Never smiles (but I minimize my exposure to his face).  The American people traditionally expect a president to be strong yet cheery and optimistic. 

Of all that, when there is an incident domestic or international that demands explanation or expressions of empathy, somebody will need to take control of that messaging.

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Re: The Trump Presidency (was "Presidential Poll")
« Reply #1126 on: February 01, 2017, 07:39:43 AM »
So we have 11 days of observation in the bank for President Trump.   Never smiles (but I minimize my exposure to his face).


"But I minimize my exposure to his face." Geez Pileus, I wonder why? Personally I'd like to stuff that pie hole with the largest possible baked potato (loaded), as I could find!

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Re: The Trump Presidency (was "Presidential Poll")
« Reply #1127 on: February 01, 2017, 05:03:22 PM »
The linked Rolling Stone article is entitled: "See Jon Stewart Warn of Future Trump Executive Orders on 'Colbert'", and it presents a comedian's point of view with a slightly different perspective than Bill Burr.

http://www.rollingstone.com/tv/news/see-jon-stewart-warn-of-future-trump-executive-orders-w464293

Extract: ""We have never faced this before. Purposeful, vindictive chaos ... No one action will be adequate. All action will be necessary," Stewart says"

See the associated YouTube video at:


See also:
The linked article is entitled: "The Trump White House Will Continually Weaponize Chaos"

http://www.esquire.com/news-politics/politics/news/a52710/trump-white-house-chaos/
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AbruptSLR

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Re: The Trump Presidency (was "Presidential Poll")
« Reply #1128 on: February 01, 2017, 06:17:16 PM »
While the globalists (like Obama) have had their shortcomings, the two linked articles indicate that they are accelerating their efforts to reduce wealth disparities; while I think that it is safe to say that Team Trump's 'populist' actions will likely increase the wealth gap in America:

The first linked article is entitled: "Policymakers must reimagine the way in which economic growth is measured: WEF report".  The article indicates that previously the policies advocated by the WEF focused too much on GDF levels and that the current version of global capitalism must be adjusted to include consideration of such issues as improvement of living standards and better control of climate change.

http://www.cnbc.com/2017/01/16/policymakers-must-reimagine-the-way-in-which-economic-growth-is-measured-wef-report.html

Extract: "Policymakers must reconsider their priorities and put significant improvements to people's living standards at the heart of their economic policies, according to the findings of the World Economic Forum's (WEF) Inclusive and Development Report 2017.

The latest WEF report stressed that the way a country measures economic growth must be re-imagined. Rather than simply addressing levels of gross domestic product (GDP), policymakers must reconnect with its increasingly frustrated citizens and consider a wider breadth of economic tools.

"The world is basically in loud agreement that inclusive growth is the way to go but it has been much more aspiration than action frankly for the last couple of years," Richard Samans, member of the managing board at the World Economic Forum told CNBC on Monday.

"(Economic) growth is essential, it is absolutely critical but… you can borrow a business analogy here, growth is like the top line. You need top line growth as a business would but the bottom line measure of success for society (in terms) of how well their economy is performing is (an) improvement of living standards," Samans added.

Policymakers must reconsider their priorities and put significant improvements to people's living standards at the heart of their economic policies, according to the findings of the World Economic Forum's (WEF) Inclusive and Development Report 2017.

The latest WEF report stressed that the way a country measures economic growth must be re-imagined. Rather than simply addressing levels of gross domestic product (GDP), policymakers must reconnect with its increasingly frustrated citizens and consider a wider breadth of economic tools.

"The world is basically in loud agreement that inclusive growth is the way to go but it has been much more aspiration than action frankly for the last couple of years," Richard Samans, member of the managing board at the World Economic Forum told CNBC on Monday.

"(Economic) growth is essential, it is absolutely critical but… you can borrow a business analogy here, growth is like the top line. You need top line growth as a business would but the bottom line measure of success for society (in terms) of how well their economy is performing is (an) improvement of living standards," Samans added."

The second linked WEF article is entitled: "To save globalization, its benefits need to be more broadly shared".  The article indicates that globalists are working to address many of the problems with globalization that have sparked the recent trend in isolationist populist movements (which are actively working to prevent globalists from correcting problems with globalization such as wealth distribution (such as a UBI), volatility in the global financial market, and climate change:

https://www.weforum.org/agenda/2017/01/to-save-globalization-its-benefits-need-to-be-more-broadly-shared

Extract: "Economists tend to be advocates of globalization. The benefits of specialization and exchange are evident within a country’s borders: no one would seriously suggest that impeding the flows of goods, labour and capital within a country would raise national welfare. Globalization extends the possibilities of specialization beyond national boundaries. Recent work suggests, however, that while globalization is great in theory, vigilance is needed about it in practice.
The three main components of globalization - goods, labour, and capital - are associated with different costs and benefits. The preponderance of the evidence suggests that trade has positive impacts on aggregate incomes, but many people do lose out. The economic benefits of migration are very high, but it too has distributional consequences and impacts on social cohesion.

These findings suggest several steps to re-design globalization. The first step is to recognize the flaws in globalization, especially in relation to financial globalization. The adverse effects of financial globalization on macroeconomic volatility and inequality should be countered. Among policymakers today, there is increased acceptance of capital controls to restrict foreign capital flows that are viewed as likely to lead to—or compound—a financial crisis. While not the only tools available, capital controls may be the best option when it is borrowing from abroad that is the source of an unsustainable credit boom (Ostry and others, 2012).

In the longer run, the solutions lie not in redistribution but in mechanisms that achieve ‘pre-distribution.’ More equal access to health, education, and financial services ensures that market incomes are not simply a function of peoples’ starting point in life. This does not ensure that everyone will end up at the same point. But the provision of opportunities to do well in life regardless of initial income level, combined with the promise of redistribution for those who fall behind, is more likely to build support for globalization than will simply ignoring the discontent with it."
« Last Edit: February 01, 2017, 06:30:25 PM by AbruptSLR »
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Neven

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Re: The Trump Presidency (was "Presidential Poll")
« Reply #1129 on: February 01, 2017, 06:23:34 PM »
it presents a comedian's point of view with a slightly different perspective than Bill Burr.

Is that why it's less funny?  ;)

It's all Trump, Trump, Trump, whereas Trump is just a symptom of something bigger. This tribalist, red vs blue, kneejerk stuff is only going to reinforce what is already there. I'm really getting turned off by this Trump-hysteria. It is only playing into his hands, everything is probably going exactly according to his plans.

I used to watch and like Jon Stewart, Stephen Colbert and Rachel Maddow, etc, a lot. Ever since the elections I simply don't enjoy watching them any longer. They're not objective, they're not conveying the right message, they're just giving the audience what it wants (polarized tribalism). Bill Maher I can still watch, but he's also largely missing the point.

What a mess...

Thank God I'm not American.  ;D :P
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Re: The Trump Presidency (was "Presidential Poll")
« Reply #1130 on: February 01, 2017, 06:48:25 PM »
Jimmy Dore explains where the opportunity lies:

! No longer available

Trump is not the end of the world, it's an opportunity, if played correctly. If you fall into the red vs blue trap, you will be played by neocons and neolibs (who are twins).

The only thing I'm not sure about is Trump's approval rate being as low as Bush's was after Katrina. That could just be propaganda, similar to the election polling.
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Re: The Trump Presidency (was "Presidential Poll")
« Reply #1131 on: February 01, 2017, 07:08:12 PM »
Anyone here interested in or have an opinion on Justice Democrats?
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Re: The Trump Presidency (was "Presidential Poll")
« Reply #1132 on: February 01, 2017, 07:17:22 PM »
I would totally agree that we are seeing brute tribalism at work, as that is one of the deepest flaws of homo sapiens (aside from believing in mythical figures and nonexistent spirit figures aka religion).  But IMO it is now going far beyond "red vs blue" and getting to the heart of US national identity and our role in the world community.

You know all this but the larger issue Neven is that from an objective, detached perspective America emerged post-War and then from the melt waters of the Cold War as one of the few countries that still can impact people and influence events across the globe, and obviously the biosphere. 

It matters to most US residents what happens here and where the national government wants to take us, as it creates ripples everywhere.  Surely it is difficult the understand the anti-Trump hysteria from afar, but a good slice of the citizenry here realizes the continued far right takeover of the nation that has been in motion for decades, and which has intensified rapidly since June 2015, and they are frightened that American is changing into something much darker. 

A small but powerful group of militants here are trying to recast the American identify to something that many of us simply are horrified by, WRT to being a US resident and how we are perceived in the world community and how we impact others everywhere.  We know we have long been seen as the "ugly Americans" and even terrorists to many in the world, so we are well aware of our despicable historical treatment of "others" here, our hypocrisy and how we have reaped death and destruction everywhere.  But the more recent generations of Americans largely embrace multiculturalism and reject Bannon's definition of a "civic society", which in his mind means Anglo whites as forever supreme and active efforts to dilute the presence of other races and perspectives.  It is sickening to many of us.

I do remain glad my ancestors left Northern Europe in the mid 18th century for America.  And thankfully, a country like Austria can no longer have massive impacts across the globe like in the old days.  :-)

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Re: The Trump Presidency (was "Presidential Poll")
« Reply #1133 on: February 01, 2017, 08:11:42 PM »
it presents a comedian's point of view with a slightly different perspective than Bill Burr.

Is that why it's less funny?  ;)

It's all Trump, Trump, Trump, whereas Trump is just a symptom of something bigger. This tribalist, red vs blue, kneejerk stuff is only going to reinforce what is already there. I'm really getting turned off by this Trump-hysteria. It is only playing into his hands, everything is probably going exactly according to his plans.

I used to watch and like Jon Stewart, Stephen Colbert and Rachel Maddow, etc, a lot. Ever since the elections I simply don't enjoy watching them any longer. They're not objective, they're not conveying the right message, they're just giving the audience what it wants (polarized tribalism). Bill Maher I can still watch, but he's also largely missing the point.

What a mess...

Thank God I'm not American.  ;D :P

Neven,

It is easy to generalize and talk about opportunity if your basic freedoms, right of choice, your kids education are not threatened. ( see gun lobby, religious conservatism, education, Supreme Court, science education, LGBT rights, etc )

If they were, you would think otherwise about opportunity.

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Re: The Trump Presidency (was "Presidential Poll")
« Reply #1134 on: February 01, 2017, 09:18:33 PM »
Everything drT mentions is already under threat for a pretty long period in the US. And now we are witnessing a dangerous step further in the wrong direction. Who is willing to stop Trump/Bannon? Before they have taken over/ruined everything that is left. So much extremism in each next appointee.

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Re: The Trump Presidency (was "Presidential Poll")
« Reply #1135 on: February 01, 2017, 09:20:28 PM »
The above replies seem to prove Neven's point, rather than repudiate it.




I lived under a Student Visa then Permanent Green-card from 1963 till 2010, so I am probably as aware of the "American Way" as any citizen. My mother, brother, and 3 wives (including the present one) are or were American's.


In 2004, when it became obvious that "W" would win a second term I escaped through the (at that time) porous northern border & returned to a country that I hadn't visited since the 60's. My wife is now a Permanent Resident here in Canada, & although her kids & grand kids remain below the border, neither of us would consider returning to the U.S. of A. for more than a visit.




The above was my poor attempt at deflecting those comments that begin with, "You couldn't understand because ...".


I survived LBJ, Nixon, Reagan, and two Bushes and all I wanted in the past election was for the progressive, green, peace candidate, to be swept into power by the will of all the good American voters.
What I got instead was a heated race between a war mongering neo-lib & a science denying plutocrat with a neo-con base. Neither candidate was acceptable to me, although keeping Hillary away from "The Button" does let me sleep easier.


Terry

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Re: The Trump Presidency (was "Presidential Poll")
« Reply #1136 on: February 01, 2017, 09:28:57 PM »
The above replies seem to prove Neven's point, rather than repudiate it.




I lived under a Student Visa then Permanent Green-card from 1963 till 2010, so I am probably as aware of the "American Way" as any citizen. My mother, brother, and 3 wives (including the present one) are or were American's.


In 2004, when it became obvious that "W" would win a second term I escaped through the (at that time) porous northern border & returned to a country that I hadn't visited since the 60's. My wife is now a Permanent Resident here in Canada, & although her kids & grand kids remain below the border, neither of us would consider returning to the U.S. of A. for more than a visit.




The above was my poor attempt at deflecting those comments that begin with, "You couldn't understand because ...".


I survived LBJ, Nixon, Reagan, and two Bushes and all I wanted in the past election was for the progressive, green, peace candidate, to be swept into power by the will of all the good American voters.
What I got instead was a heated race between a war mongering neo-lib & a science denying plutocrat with a neo-con base. Neither candidate was acceptable to me, although keeping Hillary away from "The Button" does let me sleep easier.


Terry

Sorry Terry but his base is far from new-con! Really the false equivalence is driving me nuts. The government in US is not just the president. It is the congress and senate, is the local gonverments and the government agencies. Apart from H's famous war-mongering ( per secondary sources - not for me to question ), under a democratic president the other branches would not be under threat.  Rule bending, process bypassing, agency destroying, individual liberty and choice limiting actions have never been in the D agenda.  Yet we have this false equivalence!!

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Re: The Trump Presidency (was "Presidential Poll")
« Reply #1137 on: February 01, 2017, 09:31:46 PM »
The truth of the matter is that Trump is not actually a populist, rather he is a kleptocrat (in alliance with other kleptocratic outfits like ExxonMobil and Putin, Inc.) wrapped 'in sheep's clothing'.  The first linked article is entitled: "Corruption Report: Turning to Populist Leaders May Make Things Worse", and it clearly warns that the populist trend leads towards more corruption, generally due to kleptocratic behavior on the part of populist leaders like Trump, Putin, etc, who prey on the fears (resulting from ignorance) of the common man.

http://www.voanews.com/a/corruption-report-populist-leaders/3691263.html

The second linked article (2012 Rolling Stone) is entitled: "The Deadly Scramble for the World's Last Resources".  It helps readers to understand that kleptocrats like Team Trump, Putin Inc, and ExxonMobil are currently making a grab for diminishing world resources on the assumption that substitutes will not sufficiently replace such resources within the coming decades, and thus they are hoping to be king of the rubble pile when the collapse comes; while globalists (like Obama, WEF, etc.) are hoping that the coming 4th Industrial Revolution will provide sufficient substitutes so that overshoot will lead to an oscillation rather than a pancake flat collapse (see the first image).

http://www.rollingstone.com/politics/news/the-mad-scramble-for-the-worlds-last-resources-20120319

Extract: "You've heard of 'peak oil'? Welcome to 'peak everything'

The world is hurtling towards what author Michael Klare calls "a crisis of resource depletion."

Getting at it is becoming more and more dangerous, both environmentally – we can expect to see more Gulf-style disasters as companies breach the "final frontiers" of resource extraction – and politically, as countries clash more and more over who gets what.

Holy crap, right? But there's a (somewhat) hopeful part: For some of these resources, there are substitutes (say, renewables in place of oil), and if we pick up the pace in developing them, we won't have to plunder the planet quite so much; in other cases, we'll just need to learn to do more with less (conservation, efficiency). The essential thing, says Klare, whose new book is called The Race for What's Left, is to start figuring this stuff out right now."

What timeframe are we talking about?

The high point of the crisis is still some years away, but I would say that we have to start now if we’re going to avoid really desperate conditions in 10, 20, 30 years, when many of the materials we rely on will become much more scarce. We’re going to have more conflict, more crisis, more poisonous relations with countries like China because of the competition between us. But I also fear we’re going to have more bad environmental crises occurring -- more Deepwater Horizon-like events that will remind us of the perils of relying on these extreme forms of energy and other minerals. That’s what’s in store for us if we don’t begin to change our behavior today."

The third link leads to a Wikipedia article on populism (for those unclear on what populism is, or is not):

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Populism

Extract: "The underlying ideology of Populists can be left, right, or middle. Its goal is to unite the uncorrupt and the unsophisticated (the 'little man') against the corrupt dominant elites (usually the orthodox politicians) and their camp followers (usually the rich and the intellectuals).

Historically, academic definitions of populism vary, and people have often used the term in loose and inconsistent ways to reference appeals to "the people," demagogy, and "catch-all" politics.

The 2016 presidential election saw a wave of populist sentiment in the campaigns of Bernie Sanders and Donald Trump, with both candidates running on anti-establishment platforms in the Democratic and Republican parties, respectively.  Both campaigns appealed to economic protectionism and have criticized free trade deals such as the North American Free Trade Agreement and the Trans-Pacific Partnership. Their movements coincided with a similar trend of populism in Europe."

The fourth linked leads to a Wikipedia article entitled: "Justice Democrats"; which indicates that the Justice Democrats are attempting to create a left-wing populist movement large enough to take control of the US Congress by 2018.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Justice_Democrats

Extract: "The Justice Democrats are attempting to create a left-wing populist movement similar to the right-wing Tea Party movement and to recruit hundreds of Justice Democrats to run a unified campaign to replace every establishment Congressperson in the 2018 Congressional midterms, or to force them to become accountable to their constituents."

While I have nothing against Justice Democrats, I suspect that they are more than 'a day late and a dollar short' on their ability to recreate the Tea Party strategy, which is the end product of over 50-years of refinement paid for by conservative establishment elites.  In face of the pending collapse (either pancake flat, or with an oscillating tail), I recommend that the people educate themselves so that they can make informed decisions (see the second image).
« Last Edit: February 01, 2017, 09:48:04 PM by AbruptSLR »
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DrTskoul

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Re: The Trump Presidency (was "Presidential Poll")
« Reply #1138 on: February 01, 2017, 09:36:32 PM »
I originally come from Greece. I've recently have experienced the "benefits" of the left side populism. Equally catastrophic!!! Populism plays to the masses without real plans.

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Re: The Trump Presidency (was "Presidential Poll")
« Reply #1139 on: February 01, 2017, 09:55:31 PM »
DrTSkoul


If The Donald's base is not neo-con, isn't this a positive thing?


ASLR


I didn't like the Tea Party then, and I won't appreciate a Tea Party Left movement.


Joining a "Soros mob" to over throw an elected government isn't working out in Ukraine, and it won't work out well in America.
 "Spontaneous" demonstrations require lots of planning.




Once this next round of gerrymandering, with the blessing of the New Supreme Court is in place, making your vote count will be much more difficult. Do you want to keep the trappings of democracy under a generation or more of right wing extremists, or toss over the apple cart & take your chances with whatever survives the chaos.


Your choice - not mine.


Terry

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Re: The Trump Presidency (was "Presidential Poll")
« Reply #1140 on: February 01, 2017, 10:09:34 PM »
we have this false equivalence!!
Yes. And this simplicissistic thinking is driving me crazy. It's all around. Even here, like on FB.
So sad. People grasping for excuses. Any stupid excuses. But the other boy also did bad! Määäääh...

DrTskoul

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Re: The Trump Presidency (was "Presidential Poll")
« Reply #1141 on: February 01, 2017, 10:22:39 PM »
DrTSkoul


If The Donald's base is not neo-con, isn't this a positive thing?


ASLR


I didn't like the Tea Party then, and I won't appreciate a Tea Party Left movement.


Joining a "Soros mob" to over throw an elected government isn't working out in Ukraine, and it won't work out well in America.
 "Spontaneous" demonstrations require lots of planning.




Once this next round of gerrymandering, with the blessing of the New Supreme Court is in place, making your vote count will be much more difficult. Do you want to keep the trappings of democracy under a generation or more of right wing extremists, or toss over the apple cart & take your chances with whatever survives the chaos.


Your choice - not mine.


Terry

No. A religious conservative, anti-science base that does not want me to have a choice, is not better.

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Re: The Trump Presidency (was "Presidential Poll")
« Reply #1142 on: February 01, 2017, 10:27:47 PM »
The truth of the matter is that Trump is not actually a populist, rather he is a kleptocrat (in alliance with other kleptocratic outfits like ExxonMobil and Putin, Inc.) wrapped 'in sheep's clothing'.
Fucken exactly. Except he has no clothing. But people keep comparing his suit to Hillary's...


Quote
http://www.rollingstone.com/politics/news/the-mad-scramble-for-the-worlds-last-resources-20120319

Extract: "You've heard of 'peak oil'? Welcome to 'peak everything'

Heck thanks. I spent an hour or 2 today reading and debating sociologist blather from last century, but fresh off the keyboard. This article is from 2012, and it wasn't much news back then. I'm only a bit more optimistic about the time frame: Fossil fool's finance will collapse pretty soon. Then Trump et al should be gone. Soros or not.

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Re: The Trump Presidency (was "Presidential Poll")
« Reply #1143 on: February 01, 2017, 10:45:38 PM »
The linked article indicates Trump never misses a trick when it comes to enriching Trump Inc at the expense of the American people.

https://www.nytimes.com/2017/02/01/us/politics/donald-trump-administration.html?_r=0

Extract: "Trump files for re-election — to hold on to his campaign cash
Extract: "On the day of his inauguration, President Trump filed paperwork to declare his candidacy in the 2020 election, but it wasn’t necessarily a show of supreme confidence — more like a grasp for cash.

Financial disclosures filed with the Federal Election Commission show that a lucrative December made the move an accounting necessity. The Trump campaign ended the year with $7.6 million in the bank and no debt, so any funds raised over $5,000 by the campaign in 2017 would have be returned unless Mr. Trump registered as a candidate for 2020. He obviously was not prepared to offer refunds.

And the money has kept flowing. The campaign brought in more than $4 million in expense refunds, mostly from members of the media and the Secret Service for the seats they used on his campaign planes. This arrangement is typical — campaigns are required to charge the Secret Service and the press a fair rate. What’s unusual is that most of the campaign’s air travel expenses, nearly $9 million, were paid to companies owned by Trump."
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AbruptSLR

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Re: The Trump Presidency (was "Presidential Poll")
« Reply #1144 on: February 01, 2017, 10:51:04 PM »
ASLR


I didn't like the Tea Party then, and I won't appreciate a Tea Party Left movement.


Joining a "Soros mob" to over throw an elected government isn't working out in Ukraine, and it won't work out well in America.
 "Spontaneous" demonstrations require lots of planning.




Once this next round of gerrymandering, with the blessing of the New Supreme Court is in place, making your vote count will be much more difficult. Do you want to keep the trappings of democracy under a generation or more of right wing extremists, or toss over the apple cart & take your chances with whatever survives the chaos.


Your choice - not mine.


Terry

First, the Tea Party Left movement is Neven's input not mine.

Second, Team Trump is playing the GOP establishment to make sure that he benefits from any future voter suppression measures more than the establishment GOP does.

Best,
ASLR
“It is not the strongest or the most intelligent who will survive but those who can best manage change.”
― Leon C. Megginson

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Re: The Trump Presidency (was "Presidential Poll")
« Reply #1145 on: February 01, 2017, 11:19:54 PM »
Several days ago I said that FOX would become the primary and almost exclusive voice of Trump.  CNN was the first casualty today as no Trump surrogates will be doing any more interviews until CNN "promotes" Trumps agenda.
FOX (RT) News....."The Trump Channel.....where truth and journalism are dead."

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Re: The Trump Presidency (was "Presidential Poll")
« Reply #1146 on: February 01, 2017, 11:28:58 PM »
If everyone who voted for Bernie Sanders, goes out and votes for the people put forward/supported by the Justice Democrats for the midterm elections, quite a lot of them will get a seat in Congress. Or at least that's what that Cenk guy from The Young Turks says.

I just think that it would be wise to suppress the power corporate Democrats have over the party first and then take on Trump for real, instead of opting for the lesser poison and hope to regain some modicum of health (basic freedoms, right of choice, your kids education). Because you will not get anything otherwise.

It's not an either/or proposition. I think you can do both. I think you have to do both, because neocons, neoliberals, and populist kleptocrats are basically sides of the same coin. Ultimately, this is about taxing the super-rich like FDR did during the Depression. Corporate Democrats are not going to do that. Ever.

This is about much more than just Trump.
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Re: The Trump Presidency (was "Presidential Poll")
« Reply #1147 on: February 01, 2017, 11:31:06 PM »
Several days ago I said that FOX would become the primary and almost exclusive voice of Trump.  CNN was the first casualty today as no Trump surrogates will be doing any more interviews until CNN "promotes" Trumps agenda.
Great. CNN might fill the time with serious analysis. Free air time was a major advantage, a free gift to Trump by stupid media. Trump is also great in shooting himself in the foot. Amazing how he is still standing.

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Re: The Trump Presidency (was "Presidential Poll")
« Reply #1148 on: February 01, 2017, 11:37:43 PM »
Several days ago I said that FOX would become the primary and almost exclusive voice of Trump.  CNN was the first casualty today as no Trump surrogates will be doing any more interviews until CNN "promotes" Trumps agenda.

So what? There's no use in watching any news network anyhow, unless you like to be force-fed propaganda by pretty millionaires. Stop watching all that nonsense, get your info from independent sources.

And as for the Tea Party. The really, really bad part about that is the one that is sponsored by Americans For Prosperity (read: Koch brothers). The rest is not as black and white. Lots of honest people there with genuine concerns, like this one taking up up environmental issues.

Kicking out Corporate Democrats and getting real progressives in the Congress, would help build a bridge, I'm sure of it. People can be racist and bigoted and everything, but in the end they also want politicians who aren't in the pocket of big corporations.
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Re: The Trump Presidency (was "Presidential Poll")
« Reply #1149 on: February 02, 2017, 12:32:50 AM »
war mongering ??

"WH national security adviser: Iran is 'on notice'"