Support the Arctic Sea Ice Forum and Blog

Author Topic: The Trump  (Read 1488921 times)

AbruptSLR

  • Multi-year ice
  • Posts: 19703
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 2268
  • Likes Given: 286
Re: The Trump Presidency (was "Presidential Poll")
« Reply #1350 on: February 10, 2017, 10:31:28 PM »
The linked article is entitled: "Children’s climate lawsuit to Donald Trump: See you in court".

https://thinkprogress.org/childrens-climate-lawsuit-trump-4953d46cb66c#.1vlbfngvy

Extract: "The plaintiffs in the landmark case just named President Donald Trump as a party in the lawsuit.

On Thursday, youth plaintiffs in the federal case filed notice with the court that they were replacing former President Barack Obama — against whom the case was initially brought — with President Trump. In a statement, the plaintiffs noted that the case has taken on even larger significance now that it is against an administration that has proven itself to be openly hostile to climate policy."
“It is not the strongest or the most intelligent who will survive but those who can best manage change.”
― Leon C. Megginson

AbruptSLR

  • Multi-year ice
  • Posts: 19703
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 2268
  • Likes Given: 286
Re: The Trump Presidency (was "Presidential Poll")
« Reply #1351 on: February 10, 2017, 11:39:33 PM »
The first linked article is entitled: "Assad Says US Troops Welcome in Syria to Fight 'Terrorism'".  And if Flynn/Bannon have their way then even if it is unnecessary to beat ISIS (see the second linked article) Team Trump will put US troop into Syria just to further their goals of fighting an apocalyptic war with 'Radical Islam".

https://www.nytimes.com/aponline/2017/02/10/world/middleeast/ap-ml-syria.html?_r=0

Extract: "Syrian President Bashar Assad said in an interview released on Friday that the United States is welcome to join the battle against "terrorists" in Syria — as long as it is in cooperation with his government and respects the country's sovereignty."

See also the following linked article entitled: "Analysis: New Tactics or Grand Strategy for Trump’s War Plan?".

http://www.voanews.com/a/analysis-new-tactics-or-grand-strategy-for-trump-s-war-plan/3709550.html

Extract: "The campaign Flynn envisions would be “similar to the effort during World War II or the Cold War” and he argued in his book that it should be overseen by a single leader answerable to the president. On that idea there’s already push-back, say officials at the Defense Department, who want to move much of the tactical authority for waging the war against IS from the NSC back to the Pentagon.
 
Pentagon planners say much has changed tactically since Flynn wrote The Field of Fight. The Pentagon claims U.S.-led airstrikes have killed up to 75 percent of IS fighters, including 180 top commanders. The terror group’s ability to replenish itself with foreign recruits has been choked. The so-called caliphate has been shrunk thanks to ground action by allies, including Syrian and Iraqi Kurdish militias and reconstituted Iraqi state forces."
“It is not the strongest or the most intelligent who will survive but those who can best manage change.”
― Leon C. Megginson

Buddy

  • Young ice
  • Posts: 3379
  • Go DUCKS!!
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 49
  • Likes Given: 34
Re: The Trump Presidency (was "Presidential Poll")
« Reply #1352 on: February 11, 2017, 03:41:30 AM »
Tick....tick.....tick.....tick.....tick...
FOX (RT) News....."The Trump Channel.....where truth and journalism are dead."

AbruptSLR

  • Multi-year ice
  • Posts: 19703
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 2268
  • Likes Given: 286
Re: The Trump Presidency (was "Presidential Poll")
« Reply #1353 on: February 11, 2017, 03:45:23 AM »
The linked article is entitled: “Russian dossier on Trump gaining credibility with law enforcement”. As others have been saying: Tick Tock:

http://www.cbsnews.com/news/russian-dossier-on-trump-gaining-credibility-with-law-enforcement/


Extract: “CBS News has learned that the 35-page dossier compiled by a former British spy is gaining credibility among law enforcement.  Before he was sworn in as President, Donald Trump dismissed the document, but sources tell CBS News that investigators continue to vet it to see whether there is any truth to the allegations. 

Edit, see also:

http://newyork.cbslocal.com/2017/02/10/dossier-trump-russia/
“It is not the strongest or the most intelligent who will survive but those who can best manage change.”
― Leon C. Megginson

Buddy

  • Young ice
  • Posts: 3379
  • Go DUCKS!!
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 49
  • Likes Given: 34
Re: The Trump Presidency (was "Presidential Poll")
« Reply #1354 on: February 11, 2017, 03:57:43 AM »
OK....so who are the cast of characters...

1)  Donnie small hands
2)  Steve Bannon
3)  Michael Flynn
4)  Jared Kushner
5)  Reince Priebus
6)  Sean Spicer
7)  Mike Pence
8)  Kellyanne Conway
9)  Rex Tillerson
10)  Jason Chaffetz
11)  Rudy Guiliani

These are the "obvious" cast of POSSIBLE characters that could be in MAJOR hot water.

Donnie and Flynn are now in DEEP SHIT.  DEEP.

But WHAT did the others know.....and WHEN.

Treason is a serious crime.......and if you think Kellyanne looks bad now....imagine her without 5 pounds of makeup and wearing black and white stripes. ;)

This could make Watergate look like a petty crime.......
FOX (RT) News....."The Trump Channel.....where truth and journalism are dead."

AbruptSLR

  • Multi-year ice
  • Posts: 19703
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 2268
  • Likes Given: 286
Re: The Trump Presidency (was "Presidential Poll")
« Reply #1355 on: February 11, 2017, 04:26:23 AM »
The linked article is entitled: "Trump to Dems: 'Pocahontas is now the face of your party'".  While it seems to me that The Donald is making Pinocchio the face of the GOP.

http://www.cnn.com/2017/02/10/politics/donald-trump-elizabeth-warren-voter-fraud/index.html
« Last Edit: February 11, 2017, 05:09:21 AM by AbruptSLR »
“It is not the strongest or the most intelligent who will survive but those who can best manage change.”
― Leon C. Megginson

AbruptSLR

  • Multi-year ice
  • Posts: 19703
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 2268
  • Likes Given: 286
Re: The Trump Presidency (was "Presidential Poll")
« Reply #1356 on: February 11, 2017, 05:10:02 AM »
The linked article is entitled: “Trump Overrules Tillerson, Rejecting Elliott Abrams for Deputy Secretary of State “.  Apparently, Trump is becoming paranoid about the fact that he is losing control of this staff.


https://www.nytimes.com/2017/02/10/us/politics/trump-wall-21-billion-dollars.html?_r=0


Extract: “The deputy’s job was denied for Elliott Abrams, a conservative who had served under President Ronald Reagan and President George W. Bush, deals a blow to Mr. Tillerson in his first week on the job. The rejection of Mr. Abrams leaves Mr. Tillerson without a sherpa to help guide the first-time government official around the State Department headquarters.

Mr. Trump has been increasingly focused on who was with him or against him during his campaign, according to several people who have spoken with him in recent days.
...
“There is no good way to explain today’s report that Michael Flynn was coordinating sanctions relief for Russia before his boss was inaugurated. Either Donald Trump directed his National Security Adviser to undermine U.S. foreign policy on Russia, or Michael Flynn went rogue and did it on his own. Then he either lied to the Vice President or the Vice President went on television to lie to the American people. Whatever transpired, the President needs to get his White House under control.” “
“It is not the strongest or the most intelligent who will survive but those who can best manage change.”
― Leon C. Megginson

budmantis

  • Nilas ice
  • Posts: 1220
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 7
  • Likes Given: 34
Re: The Trump Presidency (was "Presidential Poll")
« Reply #1357 on: February 11, 2017, 05:57:40 AM »
Quote
US President Donald Trump does not believe Israeli settlement growth in Palestinian territories is "good for peace", he told a paper Friday, in his most direct comments on the matter since inauguration.

source

I'm flabbergasted. When was the last time an American President has said this? What's behind this?

Not exactly sure what you're getting at Neven. The Obama administration was opposed to Israeli settlements in Palestine, but I'm sure you knew that already. This is another issue that Trump has done an about face on. First he had no problem with the settlements, now he has. His stated position wrt China and Taiwan has changed, as did his approach towards LGBT rights. Moderating his views couldn't have come from Steve Bannon's advice, but the advice may have come from Ivanka and Jared Kushner. That's my take on this matter. Trump's style of leadership (if it can be called that), is shoot from the hip.

AbruptSLR

  • Multi-year ice
  • Posts: 19703
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 2268
  • Likes Given: 286
Re: The Trump Presidency (was "Presidential Poll")
« Reply #1358 on: February 11, 2017, 01:16:17 PM »
The linked article is entitled: “Why Trump Has Declared War on the Judiciary”, and it posits that Team Trump is deliberately politicizing the US judiciary; which is what Putin has done in Russia.

http://www.slate.com/articles/news_and_politics/jurisprudence/2017/02/why_donald_trump_has_declared_war_on_the_judiciary.html

To be clear, what the president is doing is blaming the court for politicizing the court. By acting like a court.

Although Gorsuch’s own spokesman confirmed his remarks, Trump responded by insisting that Blumenthal was lying and by noting that Blumenthal didn’t serve in Vietnam. 

Trump has now tied his nominee to a larger debate about the rule of law and the role of the judiciary. That’s a debate the Senate will now take up in Gorsuch’s confirmation hearing, and one that the nominee will not be able to sidestep with claims that the issue may come before him at the Supreme Court. For another, I suspect that Gorsuch will be alarmed enough by the fact that his colleagues on the federal bench are receiving death threats and extra security details that he will find it very hard to do anything but continue to condemn the president, albeit in the mildest possible terms. To do anything less is to quite literally permit an ongoing call for reprisal against jurists who disagree with the president.

What is Trump’s grand plan here? Mostly, I continue to believe that his attacks on the judicial branch are deliberately destabilizing for their own sake and that they are deliberately politicizing a branch of government about which Gorsuch cares a good deal.”
“It is not the strongest or the most intelligent who will survive but those who can best manage change.”
― Leon C. Megginson

AbruptSLR

  • Multi-year ice
  • Posts: 19703
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 2268
  • Likes Given: 286
Re: The Trump Presidency (was "Presidential Poll")
« Reply #1359 on: February 11, 2017, 01:30:34 PM »
The linked article is entitled: “Sanders: Trump is 'delusional,' says he could move US into 'authoritarian mode'”.  Bernie and I think alike on this matter.

http://www.cnn.com/2017/02/10/politics/bernie-sanders-trump-delusional-liar/


Extract: “Adding that he also calls the President a "pathological liar," Sanders said he didn't feel good using such harsh terms.”
“It is not the strongest or the most intelligent who will survive but those who can best manage change.”
― Leon C. Megginson

AbruptSLR

  • Multi-year ice
  • Posts: 19703
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 2268
  • Likes Given: 286
Re: The Trump Presidency (was "Presidential Poll")
« Reply #1360 on: February 11, 2017, 01:34:16 PM »
Trump's style of leadership (if it can be called that), is shoot from the hip.

It is my opinion that Team Trump has a premeditated plan to push the USA into an 'authoritarian mode' (to use Bernie's term).
“It is not the strongest or the most intelligent who will survive but those who can best manage change.”
― Leon C. Megginson

SteveMDFP

  • Young ice
  • Posts: 2519
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 594
  • Likes Given: 43
Re: The Trump Presidency (was "Presidential Poll")
« Reply #1361 on: February 11, 2017, 04:13:22 PM »
Putting China on our Border
John B. Alexander, Ph.D.
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/john-b-alexander-phd/putting-china-on-our-bord_b_14685690.html

"Trump repeatedly has stated he likes to be unpredictable. International relations are predicated on predictability. Therefore, being unpredictable equates to being unreliable and untrustworthy. He has already upset NATO. Even though there was backtracking, the NATO members understood the message. If unpredictability becomes an international norm, all participants must assume the worst-case scenarios and plan accordingly."

I thought this was an articulate discussion of the hazards of Trump.
It conveys clear arguements for impeachment, without explicitly calling for that step.

I don't think Trump has any well thought-out master plan for authoritarian rule, he's just an ignorant bully in a powerful position.  Bannon might, though, so the combination is very dangerous.

Buddy

  • Young ice
  • Posts: 3379
  • Go DUCKS!!
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 49
  • Likes Given: 34
Re: The Trump Presidency (was "Presidential Poll")
« Reply #1362 on: February 11, 2017, 05:08:02 PM »
Quote
I don't think Trump has any well thought-out master plan for authoritarian rule, he's just an ignorant bully in a powerful position.  Bannon might, though, so the combination is very dangerous.

ABSOLUTELY agree.  Bannon is using Trump....and Trump is using Bannon.  Although Bannon is the longer term strategist...  Trump is just reacting to things...as well as to Bannon's strategy.

Bannon and Trump will continue to fight the war against THE PRESS....and....THE JUDICIARY.  They have already started....obviously.

Flynn is toast.  And Flynn is dangerous now for Trump and Bannon.  Just as in the Watergate scandal.....this was NOT thought out very well, and there will likely be too many tracks as investigators of SEVERAL COUNTRIES continue to track down leads.

If Flynn "flips".....Trump, Bannon, and company are in really deep do-do.

If you look back at Watergate....that is what eventually killed Tricky Dick.  Somebody is going to be looking after #1 (themselves)....it's just a matter of time. 

Trump and Bannon will be trying to push as much legislation as they can.....stay busy and keep THIS off the front page.  This is also a "media war" and that is right up Bannon's alley.

Trump and Bannon are now..... ALL IN.  If they need to fight a war to get public support....they will more than gladly do that (and that is why I strongly believe we have "a conflict" before April is done.  Trump and Bannon will.....over time....be pushed into a corner.  And people without ethics or morals will do ANYTHING.

The interesting thing coming up will be how they react to the two large marches/events coming up in March and April.  That may give us some hints as to how desperate they are....and just how far they will go.

A couple other things to keep in mind:

1)  Donnie has NOT endeared himself to the folks in the CIA.  BAD MOVE DONNIE.

2)  Donnie has also gone out of his way to trash McCain.  Another bad move.  He is going to need all the friends he can find down the road.







« Last Edit: February 12, 2017, 12:56:46 AM by Buddy »
FOX (RT) News....."The Trump Channel.....where truth and journalism are dead."

AbruptSLR

  • Multi-year ice
  • Posts: 19703
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 2268
  • Likes Given: 286
Re: The Trump Presidency (was "Presidential Poll")
« Reply #1363 on: February 11, 2017, 09:35:03 PM »
The linked article is entitled: “Experts on authoritarianism say Trump’s presidency is getting even worse"; so it is not only me who thinks that Team Trump is pushing for authoritarianism.

https://thinkprogress.org/experts-on-authoritarianism-say-trumps-presidency-is-getting-even-worse-c9c2ac76610f#.3dowguolf

Extract: “One scholar described Steve Bannon’s role in the administration as “pretty terrifying.””
“It is not the strongest or the most intelligent who will survive but those who can best manage change.”
― Leon C. Megginson

Neven

  • Administrator
  • First-year ice
  • Posts: 9518
    • View Profile
    • Arctic Sea Ice Blog
  • Liked: 1337
  • Likes Given: 618
Re: The Trump Presidency (was "Presidential Poll")
« Reply #1364 on: February 11, 2017, 09:39:04 PM »
A discussion similar to the ones we have had here:

! No longer available

I'm with Piers Morgan for the most part.
The enemy is within
Don't confuse me with him

E. Smith

TerryM

  • First-year ice
  • Posts: 6002
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 893
  • Likes Given: 5
Re: The Trump Presidency (was "Presidential Poll")
« Reply #1365 on: February 11, 2017, 10:49:32 PM »
Thanks for the clip.
I watched the show last night & though I'm a fan of Bill's, he's going way too far with the; "Trump is the worst thing ever to happen to the country."


Piers made a number of very good arguments. One of the problems is that if we scream at the top of our range when Trump says "I'll see you in court", what do we have left when he does something that really is evil.
When Trump pointed out that America is far from innocent, Bill lists it as an example of Trump's craziness, then admits that he said the same thing. If it was crazy when Trump said it. it was also crazy when Bill said it.


Trump may prove to be the worst president ever, but would anyone really prefer another round with "W"?


BTW if Putin is a dictator I'm a climate denier. Words have meaning.


Terry

AbruptSLR

  • Multi-year ice
  • Posts: 19703
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 2268
  • Likes Given: 286
Re: The Trump Presidency (was "Presidential Poll")
« Reply #1366 on: February 11, 2017, 10:55:07 PM »
The linked article is entitled: "Donald Trump reminiscent of Stalin says chief scientist Alan Finkel as science 'literally under attack'".  "Those who refuse to learn from history are doomed to repeat it."

http://www.smh.com.au/technology/sci-tech/donald-trump-like-stalin-says-chief-scientist-alan-finkel-as-science--literally-under-attack-20170206-gu6f5w.html

Extract: "Australia's Chief Scientist Alan Finkel has compared US President Donald Trump's move to censor environmental data with former Soviet dictator Josef Stalin's control of science in the USSR."
“It is not the strongest or the most intelligent who will survive but those who can best manage change.”
― Leon C. Megginson

DrTskoul

  • Nilas ice
  • Posts: 1455
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 210
  • Likes Given: 60

budmantis

  • Nilas ice
  • Posts: 1220
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 7
  • Likes Given: 34
Re: The Trump Presidency (was "Presidential Poll")
« Reply #1368 on: February 11, 2017, 11:01:57 PM »

Trump may prove to be the worst president ever, but would anyone really prefer another round with "W"?


Terry

No to W. but as Maher said last night, Trump has been President for three weeks.

AbruptSLR

  • Multi-year ice
  • Posts: 19703
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 2268
  • Likes Given: 286
Re: The Trump Presidency (was "Presidential Poll")
« Reply #1369 on: February 11, 2017, 11:04:41 PM »
The linked article entitled : "Enter the Inhofe infantry", reports that the White House is considering some of Inhofe's aides to help them fight the EPA.

http://www.eenews.net/greenwire/stories/1060049898

Extract: "If you're looking to build an army of government aides with experience fighting climate regulations, sparring with environmentalists and cracking down on U.S. EPA, alumni of Sen. Jim Inhofe's office are an obvious place to start. And the Trump administration is doing just that, eyeing at least five current and former aides to the Oklahoma Republican for top political jobs working on energy in the White House and in EPA."
“It is not the strongest or the most intelligent who will survive but those who can best manage change.”
― Leon C. Megginson

AbruptSLR

  • Multi-year ice
  • Posts: 19703
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 2268
  • Likes Given: 286
Re: The Trump Presidency (was "Presidential Poll")
« Reply #1370 on: February 11, 2017, 11:35:52 PM »
BTW if Putin is a dictator I'm a climate denier. Words have meaning.

The linked article is entitled: "Garry Kasparov: 'Putin's main philosophy is confrontation'", and in it Kasparov warns that Putin is moving steadily towards authoritarianism, and Kasparov warns about a possible Trump-Putin alliance that may be working to threaten Western democracy. Kasparov is very good at looking multiple moves into the future (just watch the entire video at the linked France24 site), and he warns that: "Winter is Coming".

http://www.france24.com/en/20170201-interview-garry-kasparov-putin-dictator-trump-europe-far-right-russia-nemtsov

Extract: "Garry Kasparov, former world chess champion and one of Vladimir Putin’s most famous opponents, sees the Russian president as a threat to Western democracy. Since retiring from professional chess in 2005, Kasparov has been using his fame to draw attention to Russia’s shift toward authoritarianism.

"At the end of the day, every dictator, after eliminating all the enemies inside his own country, will look for enemies outside", Kasparov warns. The opponent adds that Putin has made "confrontation with the free world the core of his domestic propaganda"."
“It is not the strongest or the most intelligent who will survive but those who can best manage change.”
― Leon C. Megginson

AbruptSLR

  • Multi-year ice
  • Posts: 19703
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 2268
  • Likes Given: 286
Re: The Trump Presidency (was "Presidential Poll")
« Reply #1371 on: February 12, 2017, 12:41:41 AM »
The linked article is entitled: "The timeline of Trump's ties with Russia lines up with allegations of conspiracy and misconduct".  Where there is smoke, there is fire.

http://www.businessinsider.com/trump-russia-ties-michael-flynn-dossier-2017-2

Extract: "In July 2016, while Manafort was still Donald Trump's campaign manager, a change was made to the Republican Party's policy on Ukraine. The change fits with the dossier's assertion that the Trump campaign agreed to soften US support for Ukraine in exchange for the Kremlin releasing damaging information about Hillary Clinton.

The Republican National Committee's original draft language on Ukraine proposed sending "lethal weapons" to the Ukrainian army to fend off Russian aggression. But after a sub-committee meeting at the convention, the "lethal weapons" line was softened significantly and changed to "provide appropriate assistance."

A member of the Republican National Committee present at the meeting, however, confirmed to Business Insider that the change "definitely came from Trump staffers."

The altered Ukraine policy amendment, with the softer language, ultimately was included in the new GOP platform. A few days later,  WikiLeaks began publishing the emails stolen from the Democratic National Committee and Clinton campaign. The timing coincided with the start of the Democratic National Convention the following week.

Last Tuesday, Politico reported that Flynn will recommend that Trump support the ascension of Montenegro, a small Balkan nation, into NATO. Russia officially opposes such a move. But it aligns with the dossier's suggestion that the Trump White House would support raising commitments "in the Baltics and Eastern Europe to deflect attention away from Ukraine."
Last Thursday, moreover, both The Washington Post and The New York Times reported that Flynn had spoken with Russia's ambassador to the US about the US economic sanctions on Russia before Trump was sworn in — including at least one call on the day President Barack Obama imposed new penalties on Russia for its election-related meddling.

Both Flynn and Vice President Mike Pence initially denied that Flynn and Russia's ambassador discussed US sanctions in these calls. But counterintelligence officials told the Times that they have transcripts of the conversations and that the sanctions were discussed.  Flynn has since backtracked on his denial, saying that he doesn't recall exactly what was discussed.

Rosneft, meanwhile, ultimately signed a deal that was similar to the one the dossier described: On December 7, the oil company sold 19.5% of shares, worth roughly $11 billion, to the multinational commodity trader Glencore Plc and Qatar's state-owned wealth fund. Page  was back in Moscow on December 8, one day after the deal was signed, to "meet with some of the top managers" of Rosneft, hetold reporters at the time.

Page's extensive business ties to state-owned Russian companies were investigated by a counterintelligence task force set up last year by the CIA, according to several media reports. The investigation, which is reportedly ongoing, has examined whether Russia was funneling money into Trump's presidential campaign — and, if it was, who was serving as the liaison between the Trump team and the Kremlin."
“It is not the strongest or the most intelligent who will survive but those who can best manage change.”
― Leon C. Megginson

AbruptSLR

  • Multi-year ice
  • Posts: 19703
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 2268
  • Likes Given: 286
Re: The Trump Presidency (was "Presidential Poll")
« Reply #1372 on: February 12, 2017, 03:07:04 AM »
The linked article is entitled: “I ran Clinton's campaign, and I fear Russia is meddling with more than elections”, need I say more.

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2017/feb/07/russia-hacked-us-election-democracy-vladimir-putin


Extract: “Vladimir Putin wants to extend his influence beyond the ballot box and into the very fabric of our public life. We must take action before it’s too late

But there’s a deeper dimension to Russia’s actions, which deserves the free world’s urgent attention: its capacity to silently influence domestic legislation and policy-making between elections.

With his success in the US last year, Putin has put opponents on notice that there will be a price to pay for crossing him. Indeed, the complex infrastructure that Russia built to infect public discourse with false or stolen information isn’t going anywhere. It can be unleashed at any time, on any issue, domestic or international.
..
Trump and the vice-president, Mike Pence, have also been frighteningly tentative about whether to maintain sanctions against Moscow.

But the example of President Trump is somewhat deceptive. Russian oligarchs eager to park their money in overseas real estate have been such an integral part of Trump’s personal fortune, and Putin’s role in this election was so outsized, it’s no wonder Trump is friendly. We may think that Trump is different – that his presidency, and this Russia problem, is temporary. Not so.

What the Russians are doing by stealing documents, spending unlimited amounts of money and creating and distributing “fake news” has the potential to corrupt our political system to its core, if it hasn’t already. If Russia invades the Baltic states, could US assistance to them die in Congress because elected officials fear Russian retaliation? It sounds unbelievable, but we saw the GOP mysteriously change its platform this summer, removing aid to Ukraine – and that was before Putin proved his influence over the election.

We have to take action now to root out Russian and other foreign influences before they become too deeply enmeshed in our political ecosystem. First and foremost, leaders in the US and Europe must stop any attempt by the Trump administration to ease sanctions on Russia. It must be abundantly clear that attacking our elections through cyberspace will prompt a tough and proportional response. “
“It is not the strongest or the most intelligent who will survive but those who can best manage change.”
― Leon C. Megginson

AbruptSLR

  • Multi-year ice
  • Posts: 19703
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 2268
  • Likes Given: 286
Re: The Trump Presidency (was "Presidential Poll")
« Reply #1373 on: February 12, 2017, 03:34:24 AM »
The linked article is entitled: “The Spies Who Love Putin”; and it provides more background on what we (democracy) are up against (a new brand of intelligence agency in the FSB).

https://www.theatlantic.com/international/archive/2017/01/fsb-kgb-putin/513272/

Extract: “How the FSB's loyalty to Russia's president made it the country's most powerful intelligence agency

The FSB stands accused not just of engineering the leaks against Hillary Clinton’s presidential campaign, but also backing extremist parties in Europe, stirring up discontent among Russian-speaking minorities in the Baltic, allegedly murdering Chechen opposition leaders in Turkey and Austria, spreading disinformation, and even kidnapping an Estonian security officer across the border in 2014. And according to the infamous unverified dossier published by Buzzfeed on January 10, it also collected compromising information on Trump with the suspected aim of turning him into Vladimir Putin’s puppet. One has to go back to Soviet times for such a rich array of proven and suspected covert adventures abroad.

To put it crudely, the FSB does the kinds of things everyone else thinks about doing but doesn’t because they’re too risky, too politically inflammatory, or too likely to backfire.

… the FSB has not looked back, especially after 1998, when for a brief time it was headed by a little-known ex-KGB officer whose career was about to experience an unexpected boost—one Vladimir Putin. In the years since, the FSB has been one his staunchest allies, hounding and discrediting his rivals, looking after his underlings, and clamping down on any spasms of popular protest. In return, he has shielded, empowered, and elevated the agency, turning a blind eye to corruption in its ranks, ...

… These are not just spies under a different acronym, though. Most do not know or respect the etiquette of the shadow war. Their backgrounds as secret police in an authoritarian state make them especially prone to bullying and blackmailing, corrupting and killing. They also operate under far fewer constraints than traditional spies. So long as they remain in Putin’s favor, they can (sometimes literally) get away with murder. Even Russia’s once-formidable Foreign Minister Sergei Lavrov, once able to challenge the spies, is now limited to cleaning up their messes.

But the FSB’s greatest asset is its sheer willingness to take chances. In that respect, it is simply mirroring Putin himself, who has played his weak hand well, precisely by—at least in the pre-Trump era—being more unpredictable and confrontational than anyone else.

Similarly, the agency’s hacking of Western politics looks worryingly effective, but is generating a backlash in the West against Russian interference and disinformation. It has become the story of the moment on both sides of the Atlantic, with the German and French security services warning that Moscow will try to manipulate upcoming elections in both countries. Just as dangerously, the SVR, GRU, and other agencies, have followed the FSB’s lead in tailoring their briefings to flatter Putin’s prejudices and assumptions.”
“It is not the strongest or the most intelligent who will survive but those who can best manage change.”
― Leon C. Megginson

AbruptSLR

  • Multi-year ice
  • Posts: 19703
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 2268
  • Likes Given: 286
Re: The Trump Presidency (was "Presidential Poll")
« Reply #1374 on: February 12, 2017, 04:25:58 AM »
The linked article is entitled: “The Fates Of 5 Men Connected To The Trump-Russia Dossier”, which contains information relevant to my last few posts.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/the-fates-of-5-men-connected-to-the-trump-russia-dossier_us_589f5472e4b080bf74f03cd6

Extract: “Reviewing the fates of the five men below, we find that, since their alleged involvement in the activities detailed in the Steele dossier, one of these men was fired from his job, while another was promoted. A third man was found dead in the back of his car the day after Christmas, while the whereabouts of a fourth are unknown—as he’s gone into hiding for fear of his own and his family’s safety.

A fifth met with Vladimir Putin as recently as two weeks ago.

Mr. Steele is now on the run for his life. And so is his family.

He believes he will be murdered, and that his family will be murdered.

No one knows where he is.

While none of the above proves the veracity of the most salacious claims made in the Steele Dossier—claims that Donald Trump sold away U.S. policy toward Russia to avoid Russian blackmail—the fates of these five men (as well as a sixth mentioned frequently in the dossier, Paul Manafort) seem inconsistent with President Trump’s insistence that the Steele dossier is “fake news.” “
“It is not the strongest or the most intelligent who will survive but those who can best manage change.”
― Leon C. Megginson

AbruptSLR

  • Multi-year ice
  • Posts: 19703
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 2268
  • Likes Given: 286
Re: The Trump Presidency (was "Presidential Poll")
« Reply #1375 on: February 12, 2017, 04:44:23 AM »
The linked article is entitled: “Bannon Wants A War And He Will Use Jesus to Get One”, the content in the article (& in the video included with the article) is rather disturbing.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/bannon-trump-the-ultra-conservative-roman-catholic_us_589b6d50e4b02bbb1816c257

Extract: “The Russian Orthodox Church has been squarely on the side of Putin, and both have in mind the vision of purging the world of Islam. The Roman Catholic and Russian Orthodox churches are closely linked, doctrinally and theologically, so Trump’s Putin love and Bannon’s alt-right Roman Catholicism may result in stronger political ties develop between the Church of Rome and the Russian Orthodox Church.

It’s no accident that Bannon and the “alt-right” are aligning themselves with the ultra-conservative fringe of Roman Catholicism. Bannon wants a war and he will use Jesus to get one. Bannon and Trump will stand in line with Israel, the lunatic Catholic fringe, dishonest moral theologians and Putin ― as well as with any other necessary “strange bedfellows” ...”
« Last Edit: February 12, 2017, 05:01:16 AM by AbruptSLR »
“It is not the strongest or the most intelligent who will survive but those who can best manage change.”
― Leon C. Megginson

AbruptSLR

  • Multi-year ice
  • Posts: 19703
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 2268
  • Likes Given: 286
Re: The Trump Presidency (was "Presidential Poll")
« Reply #1376 on: February 12, 2017, 04:56:28 AM »
I'm with Piers Morgan for the most part.

The linked article is entitled: “Fantastic beefs and where to find them: JK Rowling at war with Piers Morgan”.  Apparently, JK Rowling's is not impressed by Piers Morgan's logic.

https://www.theguardian.com/media/2017/feb/11/jk-rowling-piers-morgan-trump-twitter-spat

Extract: “TV presenter’s support for Donald Trump sees him sworn at on HBO, then roasted on Twitter by the Harry Potter author
...
… Rowling warned Morgan that his sycophantic attitude to Trump would be his downfall. “If only you’d read Harry Potter, you’d know the  downside of sucking up to the biggest bully in school is getting burned alive.”
“It is not the strongest or the most intelligent who will survive but those who can best manage change.”
― Leon C. Megginson

sidd

  • First-year ice
  • Posts: 6785
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 1047
  • Likes Given: 0
Re: The Trump Presidency (was "Presidential Poll")
« Reply #1377 on: February 12, 2017, 07:40:17 AM »
This thread resembles the later and more horrific McCarthyite version of the House Un-American Activities Committee, again setting up Russia as the new bogeyman  It's a pity that no one recalls the earlier version involving the testimony of Smedley Butler, which did not implicate foreigners ...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Business_Plot

Butler was quite forthright about the American Enterprise elsewhere, which you may read about here:

http://www.ratical.org/ratville/CAH/warisaracket.html
http://www.flagrancy.net/salvage/smedley.html

or just by searching for Smedley Butler.

"I spent 33 years and four months in active military service and during that period I spent most of my time as a high class muscle man for Big Business, for Wall Street and the bankers. In short, I was a racketeer, a gangster for capitalism. I helped make Mexico and especially Tampico safe for American oil interests in 1914. I helped make Haiti and Cuba a decent place for the National City Bank boys to collect revenues in. I helped in the raping of half a dozen Central American republics for the benefit of Wall Street. I helped purify Nicaragua for the International Banking House of Brown Brothers in 1902–1912. I brought light to the Dominican Republic for the American sugar interests in 1916. I helped make Honduras right for the American fruit companies in 1903. In China in 1927 I helped see to it that Standard Oil went on its way unmolested. Looking back on it, I might have given Al Capone a few hints. The best he could do was to operate his racket in three districts. I operated on three continents.”

Nuttn has changed, except that the rapacity of the government of the USA has now been nakedly loosed on its own people, and its own privileged classes fear the same apparatus they were quite content to unleash upon hapless foreigners and their own underclass. It is not surprising that many smile as the naivete of the US populace is cured by a solid dose of the reality that when empires fail they must feed on their own flesh.

sidd


Anne

  • Grease ice
  • Posts: 531
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 13
  • Likes Given: 2
Re: The Trump Presidency (was "Presidential Poll")
« Reply #1378 on: February 12, 2017, 09:13:58 AM »
A discussion similar to the ones we have had here:

! No longer available

I'm with Piers Morgan for the most part.
Words I never expected to see here, or to agree with. But three cheers!
For the greatest part of this discussion, Piers Morgan (PIERS MORGAN wtf?) is the grown-up. This is  the problem: a political bubble, a refusal to venture outside it, a refusal to meet others on their own terms or see them as reasonable or even capable of reason, and shouting down.
If we - I mean, broadly the people here who think climate change is an imminent and deadly threat to our way of life - can't talk and listen sensibly and respectfully with people who don't get it, we are lost.

Neven

  • Administrator
  • First-year ice
  • Posts: 9518
    • View Profile
    • Arctic Sea Ice Blog
  • Liked: 1337
  • Likes Given: 618
Re: The Trump Presidency (was "Presidential Poll")
« Reply #1379 on: February 12, 2017, 11:37:43 AM »
Thanks for those articles, ASLR. I'm amazed to see this continuation of Cold War 2.0 propaganda, especially as it is done on behalf of the progressive cause. And I'm not even talking about the mind-blowing hypocrisy involved.

It's also interesting to see the demonization of Putin taken to a new level. Not that I want to imply he's a saint, but you really mustn't underestimate how popular that guy is in Russia. I know a few Russians and they're appalled at the way Putin is portrayed in western media. And it just keeps getting worse.

Scary times when even the 'sane' side is going bonkers.
The enemy is within
Don't confuse me with him

E. Smith

Jim Hunt

  • First-year ice
  • Posts: 6274
  • Don't Vote NatC or PopCon, Save Lives!
    • View Profile
    • The Arctic sea ice Great White Con
  • Liked: 895
  • Likes Given: 87
Re: The Trump Presidency (was "Presidential Poll")
« Reply #1380 on: February 12, 2017, 01:39:24 PM »
My own take on the onrushing black tide emanating from "TrumpLand":

"How Trump Won"

Thanks for the highly relevant heads up over there Neven:

Quote
He who thinks great thoughts often makes great errors.

"The most revolutionary thing one can do always is to proclaim loudly what is happening" - Rosa Luxemburg

Martin Gisser

  • Guest
Re: The Trump Presidency (was "Presidential Poll")
« Reply #1381 on: February 12, 2017, 03:42:52 PM »
This thread resembles the later and more horrific McCarthyite version of the House Un-American Activities Committee, again setting up Russia as the new bogeyman  It's a pity that no one recalls the earlier version involving the testimony of Smedley Butler, which did not implicate foreigners ...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Business_Plot
Russia is a new bogeyman because it has turned from communism to corporate fascism during Putin. The wikipedia article has a nice quote:
Quote
In 1936, William Dodd, the U.S. Ambassador to Germany, wrote a letter to President Roosevelt in which he stated,

"A clique of U.S. industrialists is hell-bent to bring a fascist state to supplant our democratic government and is working closely with the fascist regime in Germany and Italy. I have had plenty of opportunity in my post in Berlin to witness how close some of our American ruling families are to the Nazi regime. ... A prominent executive of one of the largest corporations, told me point blank that he would be ready to take definite action to bring fascism into America if President Roosevelt continued his progressive policies. Certain American industrialists had a great deal to do with bringing fascist regimes into being in both Germany and Italy. They extended aid to help Fascism occupy the seat of power, and they are helping to keep it there. Propagandists for fascist groups try to dismiss the fascist scare. We should be aware of the symptoms. When industrialists ignore laws designed for social and economic progress they will seek recourse to a fascist state when the institutions of our government compel them to comply with the provisions."
(Also in the book The Nazi Hydra in America: Suppressed History of a Century : Wall Street and the Rise of the Fourth Reich)

And that methinks is the rough difference in bad flavor of Donald vs. Hillary: Fascism vs. Neocon.
But this is stuff from last century, the fossil fuel age...

wili

  • Young ice
  • Posts: 3342
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 602
  • Likes Given: 409
Re: The Trump Presidency (was "Presidential Poll")
« Reply #1382 on: February 12, 2017, 05:47:33 PM »
Haven't a suspiciously large number of critical journalists, other critics and political opponents of Putin been suspiciously killed in the last few years? Yes, the can't be perfectly pinned on Putin, and I agree that we should be wary of powers demonizing leaders as a prelude to war.

Yes, Obama killed lots of people with drones and other means. But as far as I know, he is not implicated in the deaths of many journalists and opponents.

So I remain worried about Trump's dismissal of Putin's dictatorial behavior.

Piers Morgan was asking important questions that any good, critical reporter should be asking. My view is that Maher and others just weren't answering them very well.
"A force de chercher de bonnes raisons, on en trouve; on les dit; et après on y tient, non pas tant parce qu'elles sont bonnes que pour ne pas se démentir." Choderlos de Laclos "You struggle to come up with some valid reasons, then cling to them, not because they're good, but just to not back down."

budmantis

  • Nilas ice
  • Posts: 1220
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 7
  • Likes Given: 34
Re: The Trump Presidency (was "Presidential Poll")
« Reply #1383 on: February 12, 2017, 06:02:07 PM »

I'm with Piers Morgan for the most part.

I was surprised Bill Maher took exception to Trump's statement that the U.S. wasn't innocent. I thought he was savvier than that. The "See you in court" statement is another example. It was unnecessary to state the obvious, but it was one of Trump's more benign tweets.

SteveMDFP

  • Young ice
  • Posts: 2519
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 594
  • Likes Given: 43
Re: The Trump Presidency (was "Presidential Poll")
« Reply #1384 on: February 12, 2017, 06:10:52 PM »
Putin seems rather ruthless.   Still, I think there are strong arguments that US influence on the world has been more pernicious in some ways than anything Russia has done or could do (short of nuclear weapons). 

I think Trump is a greater hazard to the world, and the US, than Putin, by far.  Trump has repeatedly asked, for example, why the US can't use nuclear weapons.  He's threatened to invade Mexico, he's made noises about launching military action in Syria and against Iran.  He's not a bull in a china shop, he's a flamethrower in a dynamite factory.

In contrast, Putin, I think, mostly wants a strong and resurgent Russia (as well as personal wealth).  His likely actions are predictable.  This is good for stability.  The world could do far worse for a leader of Russia.

I do think it's more than plausible that Putin undertook steps to influence the election, and more importantly, may well have undue influence over Trump going forward.  There are two problems this poses, and one opportunity.  The problems are that, if Trump drops sanctions and refuses to  reinstate them, there is 1) every reason to expect military overthrow of the government in Kiev (which isn't necessarily a bad thing for Ukraine, it all depends on specifics), but 2) a wide-open spigot of more Russian fossil fuels to the globe.

In this context, the opportunity is to uncover that undue influence, in order to impeach Trump.  Given a Republican Congress, something this scandalous may be necessary in order to remove the menace in the White House.  In my view, global security, stability, and progress depends on impeachment (or his resignation).

TerryM

  • First-year ice
  • Posts: 6002
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 893
  • Likes Given: 5
Re: The Trump Presidency (was "Presidential Poll")
« Reply #1385 on: February 12, 2017, 06:16:41 PM »
Thanks for those articles, ASLR. I'm amazed to see this continuation of Cold War 2.0 propaganda, especially as it is done on behalf of the progressive cause. And I'm not even talking about the mind-blowing hypocrisy involved.

It's also interesting to see the demonization of Putin taken to a new level. Not that I want to imply he's a saint, but you really mustn't underestimate how popular that guy is in Russia. I know a few Russians and they're appalled at the way Putin is portrayed in western media. And it just keeps getting worse.

Scary times when even the 'sane' side is going bonkers.


AMEN


Terry


TerryM

  • First-year ice
  • Posts: 6002
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 893
  • Likes Given: 5
Re: The Trump Presidency (was "Presidential Poll")
« Reply #1386 on: February 12, 2017, 06:22:48 PM »
Steve


Why would a Republican president be better, in any way, than what we have?


Terry

SteveMDFP

  • Young ice
  • Posts: 2519
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 594
  • Likes Given: 43
Re: The Trump Presidency (was "Presidential Poll")
« Reply #1387 on: February 12, 2017, 06:33:50 PM »
Steve

Why would a Republican president be better, in any way, than what we have?

Terry

Pence never asked why we can't use nuclear weapons.
No prior republican ever tried to eliminate the EPA, or to dismantle public education, or simply deny evidence of climate change.
Nixon *created* the EPA.
No stable Republican would ever create the sheer chaos of unenforceable, unconstitutional executive orders. Or the chaos of repudiating the One China policy, only to reverse.  Or support limitless Israeli settlements, only to backtrack to prior policy. Or to attack the Judiciary repeatedly.  Or to personally attack members of Congress.
Trump is malignant, unstable, stupid and dangerous to everyone's welfare around the globe.  He's unpredictable in an utterly irrational way.
Stability in governance has to come first.

magnamentis

  • Guest
Re: The Trump Presidency (was "Presidential Poll")
« Reply #1388 on: February 12, 2017, 06:44:36 PM »
Steve

Why would a Republican president be better, in any way, than what we have?

Terry

Pence never asked why we can't use nuclear weapons.
No prior republican ever tried to eliminate the EPA, or to dismantle public education, or simply deny evidence of climate change.
Nixon *created* the EPA.
No stable Republican would ever create the sheer chaos of unenforceable, unconstitutional executive orders. Or the chaos of repudiating the One China policy, only to reverse.  Or support limitless Israeli settlements, only to backtrack to prior policy. Or to attack the Judiciary repeatedly.  Or to personally attack members of Congress.
Trump is malignant, unstable, stupid and dangerous to everyone's welfare around the globe.  He's unpredictable in an utterly irrational way.
Stability in governance has to come first.

+1

in4apenny

  • Guest
Re: The Trump Presidency (was "Presidential Poll")
« Reply #1389 on: February 12, 2017, 06:50:15 PM »


Pence never asked why we can't use nuclear weapons.
No prior republican ever tried to eliminate the EPA, or to dismantle public education, or simply deny evidence of climate change.
Nixon *created* the EPA.
No stable Republican would ever create the sheer chaos of unenforceable, unconstitutional executive orders. Or the chaos of repudiating the One China policy, only to reverse.  Or support limitless Israeli settlements, only to backtrack to prior policy. Or to attack the Judiciary repeatedly.  Or to personally attack members of Congress.
Trump is malignant, unstable, stupid and dangerous to everyone's welfare around the globe.  He's unpredictable in an utterly irrational way.
Stability in governance has to come first.

So why do you think a large percentage of the electorate voted for him?, it wasn't as though he hid his personality flaws from the voters.

TerryM

  • First-year ice
  • Posts: 6002
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 893
  • Likes Given: 5
Re: The Trump Presidency (was "Presidential Poll")
« Reply #1390 on: February 12, 2017, 06:58:22 PM »
Steve


I have to believe that those of you within the US are being subjected to more intensive propaganda wrt Trump than those of us across the border. Propaganda can be subtle and it's entirely possible to be influenced without being aware of the source.


I lived in the States for +40 years and was aware that I was being lied to re. Cuba. When I returned to Canada I wanted to visit the island but found something was holding me back. A vague fear of local law enforcement, fear that locals might be militant, something was just warning me that this might not be a safe venture. When my 5' tall doctor told me he'd spent a summer hitching through the land, and what a great time he'd had, I decided it must be OK. We went, had a wonderful time in the most relaxed settings imaginable. I've never had a better experience at any country's border.


Point I was trying to make is that even though I knew I was a victim of state propaganda, I still suffered from it's effects.


It's possible that many of us outside the US will never understand your stance on Trump, just as you may never understand ours.


Terry

budmantis

  • Nilas ice
  • Posts: 1220
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 7
  • Likes Given: 34
Re: The Trump Presidency (was "Presidential Poll")
« Reply #1391 on: February 12, 2017, 07:00:29 PM »
Steve

Why would a Republican president be better, in any way, than what we have?

Terry

Pence never asked why we can't use nuclear weapons.
No prior republican ever tried to eliminate the EPA, or to dismantle public education, or simply deny evidence of climate change.
Nixon *created* the EPA.
No stable Republican would ever create the sheer chaos of unenforceable, unconstitutional executive orders. Or the chaos of repudiating the One China policy, only to reverse.  Or support limitless Israeli settlements, only to backtrack to prior policy. Or to attack the Judiciary repeatedly.  Or to personally attack members of Congress.
Trump is malignant, unstable, stupid and dangerous to everyone's welfare around the globe.  He's unpredictable in an utterly irrational way.
Stability in governance has to come first.

That's a good reply SteveMDFP. Republicans in the 70's were quite moderate though. In addition to the EPA, Nixon initiated diplomatic contact with China and I believe also initiated the policy of "détente" with the USSR. That being said, Nixon was also dangerous and unstable. Back in the 70's there were "liberal" Republicans and most of the rest were moderate. Nowadays the term "liberal" Republican is an oxymoron. Despite being Trump's lapdog, Pence would make a marginally better President and would most likely lose a bid for re-election in 2020.

AbruptSLR

  • Multi-year ice
  • Posts: 19703
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 2268
  • Likes Given: 286
Re: The Trump Presidency (was "Presidential Poll")
« Reply #1392 on: February 12, 2017, 07:19:31 PM »
Thanks for those articles, ASLR. I'm amazed to see this continuation of Cold War 2.0 propaganda, especially as it is done on behalf of the progressive cause. And I'm not even talking about the mind-blowing hypocrisy involved.

It's also interesting to see the demonization of Putin taken to a new level. Not that I want to imply he's a saint, but you really mustn't underestimate how popular that guy is in Russia. I know a few Russians and they're appalled at the way Putin is portrayed in western media. And it just keeps getting worse.

Scary times when even the 'sane' side is going bonkers.

The linked Smithsonian article is entitled: "The Popularity of Putin and What It Means for America".  In tough times, human nature tends towards tribalism/nationalism, which populist strongmen feed upon.  Trump knows that Putin's popularity shot-up when he annexed Crimea and defended Russian honor from 'others' (i.e. the West); and thus he states that he will hold onto Iraqi oil when he next sends ground troops to the Middle East to defend the USA from 'others' (i.e. Radical Islam) working should to shoulder with other strongmen from Russia, Syria, Turkey etc.  For those who are unclear, I am not trying to defend Western Imperialism (including both American and European Imperialism), but rather I am examining the growth of the coming international network/cult of alt-right populist strongmen.


http://www.smithsonianmag.com/history/popularity-putin-and-what-it-means-america-180961598/

Extract: "Early in Putin’s regime, his presidency benefited from Russia’s economic reliance on the oil industry, but as of late this same reliance has resulted in financial turmoil. In foreign matters, Putin’s aggressive stance has endeared him to Russians; his successful annexation of Crimea in March 2014 shot him up to an 84 percent approval rating. Crackdowns on press freedom and other civil liberties have only served to strengthen his position.

The stories Garrels gleaned from her decades spent reporting look for an explanation about how Russians came to embrace their autocratic leader. Putin Country: A Journey Into the Real Russia digs into the citizens who support the powerful head of state. Garrels spoke with Smithsonian.com about how the country has changed in the 25 years since the fall of the Soviet Union.

The mainstream media, the easy access sites, TV, they’ve been completely hijacked by the Kremlin. So unless you really want to look further afield you’re going to get the Kremlin’s view in a very crude, in-your-face way.

It’s very persuasive and it plays into a lot of people’s basic fears that the West was out to shame Russia and take advantage of it. When Putin came in as president in 2000, he had the benefit of high oil prices and the global economy being on Russia’s side. Most people began to live a lot better, and they attributed that to not so much global impact, but to Putin, even though Putin has failed to really modernize the economy.

Putin also played very much to the feelings—he understood how wounded Russians felt… One friend of mine who’s very smart, speaks fluent English and reads everything on the web, she bristled when I suggested she’d been zombified because of the Kremlin-manipulated media. She said, ‘I believe Putin is right in terms of making us more self-sufficient, less vulnerable to the whims of the West.’"
“It is not the strongest or the most intelligent who will survive but those who can best manage change.”
― Leon C. Megginson

SteveMDFP

  • Young ice
  • Posts: 2519
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 594
  • Likes Given: 43
Re: The Trump Presidency (was "Presidential Poll")
« Reply #1393 on: February 12, 2017, 07:19:43 PM »
Steve


I have to believe that those of you within the US are being subjected to more intensive propaganda wrt Trump than those of us across the border. Propaganda can be subtle and it's entirely possible to be influenced without being aware of the source.


I lived in the States for +40 years and was aware that I was being lied to re. Cuba. When I returned to Canada I wanted to visit the island but found something was holding me back. A vague fear of local law enforcement, fear that locals might be militant, something was just warning me that this might not be a safe venture. When my 5' tall doctor told me he'd spent a summer hitching through the land, and what a great time he'd had, I decided it must be OK. We went, had a wonderful time in the most relaxed settings imaginable. I've never had a better experience at any country's border.


Point I was trying to make is that even though I knew I was a victim of state propaganda, I still suffered from it's effects.


It's possible that many of us outside the US will never understand your stance on Trump, just as you may never understand ours.


Terry

If the deficiencies of Trump that I've cited are mere propaganda, then there's no such thing as reliable information anywhere.   This is all a matter of public record and quotes from reliable individuals.  I neglected to mention that he also threatened to invade Mexico in a call to its President.  Further chaos is evidenced by his initial dismissal of NATO, only to reverse and declare 100% support.  Or the reversal of first saying Japan should shoulder its own defense, only to reverse, again, just this weekend.  He's unstable and thus more dangerous than any mere ideologue.

But the worst is his asking why we can't use nuclear weapons.  The source is a respected Republican:

Joe Scarborough: Donald Trump Repeatedly Asked Why We Couldn’t Use Nukes
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/scarborough-trump-nukes_us_57a1e47ae4b0693164c347d0

Trump never denied this account.

bosbas

  • New ice
  • Posts: 54
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 10
  • Likes Given: 7
Re: The Trump Presidency (was "Presidential Poll")
« Reply #1394 on: February 12, 2017, 07:22:51 PM »
Having lived in the US for 13 years, my thought is that Trump is the culmination of a long process. A good read about this is The brainwashing of my father. A decades long suppressing/divide of the general population (think about so-called Right to Work laws) , extreme income and wealth inequality, and an election system that ensures a 2 party system are all aspects that play a role. The combination of this and many other aspects (like money in politics, lobbying and other kinds of bribery) have led to this culmination. I had always wondered if the US would succeed in structurally reversing these kinds of bribery (gerrymandering is also among those) , and I am more and more inclined to think they will not get out of this mess in an orderly way ; I just hope I am wrong.

TerryM

  • First-year ice
  • Posts: 6002
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 893
  • Likes Given: 5
Re: The Trump Presidency (was "Presidential Poll")
« Reply #1395 on: February 12, 2017, 07:37:46 PM »
I hope so to bosbas


night all, my computer was acting up and I spent all night getting it running again, it's 1:35 PM damn it. I've got to get some sleep!


Terry

in4apenny

  • Guest
Re: The Trump Presidency (was "Presidential Poll")
« Reply #1396 on: February 12, 2017, 07:45:14 PM »
I am more and more inclined to think they will not get out of this mess in an orderly way ; I just hope I am wrong.

Unfortunately i think there is too much blinkered reasoning for this not to end in a mess ( as a world we are long overdue).

DrTskoul

  • Nilas ice
  • Posts: 1455
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 210
  • Likes Given: 60
Re: The Trump Presidency (was "Presidential Poll")
« Reply #1397 on: February 12, 2017, 08:14:54 PM »

Quote
...
If the deficiencies of Trump that I've cited are mere propaganda, then there's no such thing as reliable information anywhere.   This is all a matter of public record and quotes from reliable individuals....

That is their end game. If everything we hear and see is proclaimed propaganda, then there is no true information from anybody. Inside or outside....if we dismissed the information of reliable sources as bought information, doings of slaves to the corporate system, then why anybody else's i formation is true either?  Why anybody's words or thoughts are not the result of propaganda and brainwashing too??

SteveMDFP

  • Young ice
  • Posts: 2519
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 594
  • Likes Given: 43
Re: The Trump Presidency (was "Presidential Poll")
« Reply #1398 on: February 12, 2017, 08:33:08 PM »

Quote
...
If the deficiencies of Trump that I've cited are mere propaganda, then there's no such thing as reliable information anywhere.   This is all a matter of public record and quotes from reliable individuals....

That is their end game. If everything we hear and see is proclaimed propaganda, then there is no true information from anybody. Inside or outside....if we dismissed the information of reliable sources as bought information, doings of slaves to the corporate system, then why anybody else's i formation is true either?  Why anybody's words or thoughts are not the result of propaganda and brainwashing too??

Agreed.  Except I honestly don't believe there's really any "their" there (to paraphrase a famous quote).  That is, the relentless destruction of the perception of reliable information isn't, as I see it, the result of any conspiracy or grand scheme. 

I think it's an unintended consequence of the democratization of information.  With the Internet, any person, scoundrel or saint, can become a publisher, editor, pundit, or source.  Every liar, cretin, sociopath, or mercenary can cook up any story and send it around the globe.  We're deluged by false stories and biased accounts.  We all really have less and less ability to tease out bias and outright lies from actual reality.

It used to be we only had to be skeptical of advertisements and advertorials and testimonials.  Now everything demands skepticism.  All societies are suffering a deterioration of consensus.

Heaven help us all, I don't see a way to preserve democratic governance with this process going on.  The only stable governments may soon be authoritarian ones, that strictly control information flows.

AbruptSLR

  • Multi-year ice
  • Posts: 19703
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 2268
  • Likes Given: 286
Re: The Trump Presidency (was "Presidential Poll")
« Reply #1399 on: February 12, 2017, 08:58:53 PM »
The linked article is entitled: “Donald Trump’s Feud With Nordstrom Sparks Warnings From Ethics Experts”, and it confirms that ethically Team Donald is acting like any other trumped-up populist strongman around the world.

http://www.nbcnews.com/politics/white-house/donald-trump-s-feud-nordstrom-sparks-warnings-ethics-experts-n719141

Extract: “"Over and over again, you see this pattern of populist leaders, often democratically elected, who use the power of office to enrich themselves, their families and their cronies," Stephenson said.

In that context, Stephenson said the White House's recent behavior was "extraordinarily and depressingly familiar."

The White House response drew heavy criticism from ethics watchdogs, who complained that the president appeared to be intimidating a private business to pad a family member's profits.

"This is the behavior of a Mafia don defending his turf, not the president of the United States," Norm Eisen, chairman of Citizens for Responsibility and Ethics in Washington, told MSNBC

Tara Malloy, deputy executive director of the Campaign Legal Center, a nonprofit election law organization, said the overall atmosphere created by Trump's actions was more troubling than any individual incident. She promised more issues in the future unless changes were made.

"They reveal what seems to be a complete indifference to all ethical standards applicable to Trump and the administration," she said."
“It is not the strongest or the most intelligent who will survive but those who can best manage change.”
― Leon C. Megginson