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b_lumenkraft

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Re: The Nares Strait thread
« Reply #1500 on: March 29, 2019, 12:57:41 PM »
Yes, but I think it's not a high probability event, and I'd say could stabilize rather than will stabilize.

That makes sense! Thank you. :)

johnm33

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Re: The Nares Strait thread
« Reply #1501 on: March 29, 2019, 03:46:42 PM »
"I struggle" me too, one way I think of it is that southern waters have to shed 22kph per deg. to move north, or they will move east, northern waters have to be accelerated by 22kph per deg. to move south or they will move west. Thus Atlantic waters have no business passing through Fram and yet there's a persistent deep Atl. current beneath Petermann.
There's an image of the tides and their hourly rotation through the various amphidromic points in the introduction to this paper. I'm guessing that first the Atl. waters that climb to Barents displace other waters through Fram then when the tidal imperative is at work in Nares water is drawn through Fram to meet it. The meridian shows that the south of Greenland is going to have that imperative arrive at a similar time and there's not time for that surge to pass through Baffin. So I'm sure some variable harmonic exists between the Atl. tides and those in Nares but no real clue what it is. I keep meaning to see what the Fram array says about inflows but haven't got round to it.

b_lumenkraft

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Re: The Nares Strait thread
« Reply #1502 on: March 29, 2019, 04:39:00 PM »
The crackification is still going.

The arch is now basically incorporated with the cracks in the east.

uniquorn

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Re: The Nares Strait thread
« Reply #1503 on: March 30, 2019, 11:50:20 AM »
crackification wave. ascat, day67-88 (heavy contrast)

b_lumenkraft

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Re: The Nares Strait thread
« Reply #1504 on: March 30, 2019, 11:58:23 AM »
Amazing how the whole upper right part gives in and moves to the south-west all of a sudden.

I've not seen this in Worldview at all. Thanks so much for posting Uniquorn.

uniquorn

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Re: The Nares Strait thread
« Reply #1505 on: March 30, 2019, 12:17:28 PM »
Take care not to read too much into enlarged enhanced images ;)
More interesting may be the arc travelling through the ice round ellesmere in the last few frames.

b_lumenkraft

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Re: The Nares Strait thread
« Reply #1506 on: March 30, 2019, 12:22:13 PM »
Ok, interesting! Thanks, mate.

uniquorn

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Re: The Nares Strait thread
« Reply #1507 on: March 30, 2019, 01:18:18 PM »
I looked again and it does look like there is some pressure from north east.
And a brief fracture above the center of Ellesmere day78

b_lumenkraft

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Re: The Nares Strait thread
« Reply #1508 on: March 30, 2019, 02:37:27 PM »
So, it narrows down on Atlantic waters/underwater waves?


b_lumenkraft

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Re: The Nares Strait thread
« Reply #1510 on: April 01, 2019, 12:27:29 PM »
For the record, a Gif from 21.03. to 01.04.

NASA Worldview
Brightness Temperature (Band I5, Night)
Suomi NPP / VIIRS
Blue 8 Colour scheme

uniquorn

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Re: The Nares Strait thread
« Reply #1511 on: April 02, 2019, 11:16:25 AM »
Triangular section of possible thicker ice to the right is guiding the drift from the CAA into the Nares. Further north there is a competition between Fram export and Nares. The central vertical fracture heading towards the Lonomosov Ridge, crossing the normal export shear line at the corner of the thicker ice.
Would that be locally formed cloud due to ocean heat venting?

Tor Bejnar

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Re: The Nares Strait thread
« Reply #1512 on: April 02, 2019, 03:32:59 PM »
Uniquorn's post just above shows that the ice in Nares Strait currently comes from north and northwest of the Lincoln Sea.  His sea surface height GIF in the Arctic Ocean salinity, temperature and waves thread (screen print below) shows [edit] one possible cause of why it comes why it mostly comes from here, and not from the northeast.
« Last Edit: April 02, 2019, 03:51:37 PM by Tor Bejnar »
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b_lumenkraft

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Re: The Nares Strait thread
« Reply #1513 on: April 02, 2019, 03:38:48 PM »
I don't know Tor,

my impression was that the horizontal movement of ice is a function of tidal waves, not currents.

Please, tell me if this is a wrong assumption.

I agree the ice in Nares Strait mostly comes from north and northwest but isn't this due to currents and winds mostly?

Tor Bejnar

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Re: The Nares Strait thread
« Reply #1514 on: April 02, 2019, 03:47:06 PM »
Evidence suggests one factor driving ice movement is sea surface height.  Certainly there are others, including tidal forces, subsurface currents and prevailing winds. 

I agree my "shows why it mostly comes" was too strongly expressed, so I'm editing my previous post.
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johnm33

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Re: The Nares Strait thread
« Reply #1515 on: April 02, 2019, 04:36:06 PM »
"From the north and northwest", the Beaufort gyre has met the incoming Atl. water in Chukchi/ESS the two counter rotations are forming a thicker band of ice that heads for Ellesmere, some shifts towards Fram some exits Nares some recycles around the B. gyre. Look back at one of unicorns ascat animations.
Right now there's a powerful high in the west of Beaufort and a deep low in Labrador, we've also had persistent 4? days of wind blowing ice towards Banks Is. That implies some Pacific waters will surge in through the strait, so all three exits are busy exporting the freshwater lens and Nares may not settle til' after the new moon.

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Re: The Nares Strait thread
« Reply #1516 on: April 05, 2019, 11:11:39 AM »
Fracture of a slab of landfast ice at the narrow near Inglefield Land
"If I have seen further than others, it is by standing upon the shoulders of giants." Isaac Newton


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Re: The Nares Strait thread
« Reply #1518 on: April 06, 2019, 09:55:56 AM »
"If I have seen further than others, it is by standing upon the shoulders of giants." Isaac Newton

b_lumenkraft

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Re: The Nares Strait thread
« Reply #1519 on: April 06, 2019, 11:17:42 AM »
I believe the grey areas in the leads are newly formed ice?

You are right, this is new ice. If i'm not mistaken, people call it 'fast ice'.

You are welcome Iain. This site blew my mind too when i first visited. :)

And so did http://rammb-slider.cira.colostate.edu yesterday. You get high-quality data visualisation not only as a snapshot but the whole daytime 'movie'. Amazing stuff! Thanks, JayW for linking.

Jim Hunt

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Re: The Nares Strait thread
« Reply #1520 on: April 06, 2019, 12:54:44 PM »
You are right, this is new ice. If i'm not mistaken, people call it 'fast ice'.

I fear you are mistaken. "Fast" ice is ice that doesn't move. "Stuck fast" as opposed to "moves fast".

See the diagonally hatched areas in the Russian map:
Reality is merely an illusion, albeit a very persistent one - Albert Einstein

b_lumenkraft

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Re: The Nares Strait thread
« Reply #1521 on: April 06, 2019, 01:22:20 PM »
I fear you are mistaken. "Fast" ice is ice that doesn't move. "Stuck fast" as opposed to "moves fast".

Oh, thanks so much, Jim, for the correction. :)

uniquorn

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Re: The Nares Strait thread
« Reply #1522 on: April 06, 2019, 10:03:03 PM »
Quite a clear view of CAA ice today. Rainbow pallete clearly highlighting the warmer areas. The animation takes a closer look at the open water around North Kent Island at the top of Jones sound, feb19-apr6. It stays open all year (recently) and may also be affected by moon tides. https://go.nasa.gov/2FSPJ3I

edit:added sentinal shot of open water around nki
 
« Last Edit: April 06, 2019, 10:26:53 PM by uniquorn »

b_lumenkraft

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Re: The Nares Strait thread
« Reply #1523 on: April 08, 2019, 12:21:04 PM »
Evaporation over the arch. Looks like a jacuzzi.

Gives you a hint of how much heat the water carries.

Thanks, Uniquorn, for pointing out this phenomenon.

gerontocrat

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Re: The Nares Strait thread
« Reply #1524 on: April 08, 2019, 01:40:01 PM »
ORIGIN OF NARES

https://www.dictionary.com/browse/nares
Origin: 1685–95; < Latin nārēs, plural of nāris a nostril;

BUT.....
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nares_Strait
In 1964, its name was agreed by the Danish (Stednavneudvalget, now Stednavnenævnet) and Canadian governments. The name derives from the British naval officer George Strong Nares.

Vice-Admiral Sir George Strong Nares KCB FRS (24 April 1831 – 15 January 1915) was a Royal Navy officer and Arctic explorer. He commanded the first ship to pass through the Suez Canal, the Challenger Expedition, and the British Arctic Expedition. He was highly thought of as a leader and scientific explorer. In later life he worked for the Board of Trade and as Acting Conservator of the River Mersey.
________________________________________________________________________
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b_lumenkraft

Quote from: Thawing Thunder on Today at 12:17:59 PM
Little observation of a none native speaker: I found out that "nares" means "nostrils", I feel that is quite illustrative in this context.

That's some nice trivia. Thanks for sharing. :)

If you have a source, please, share with us in the Nares Strait thread

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b_lumenkraft

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Re: The Nares Strait thread
« Reply #1525 on: April 08, 2019, 01:49:07 PM »
Thank you gerontocrat! :)

Quote
Vice-Admiral Sir George Strong Nares

Can't tell if insult or real name.

wdmn

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Re: The Nares Strait thread
« Reply #1526 on: April 09, 2019, 04:05:55 AM »
The image below is from 1906 and is called "Chaos nr. 2," by Hilma af Klint. I believe it was a vision of the Nares straight in the winter of 2019.

SteveMDFP

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Re: The Nares Strait thread
« Reply #1527 on: April 09, 2019, 04:25:18 AM »
ORIGIN OF NARES

https://www.dictionary.com/browse/nares
Origin: 1685–95; < Latin nārēs, plural of nāris a nostril;
 

Apt name.  The Nares has been snorting up sea ice like an addict's nostril snorts up cocaine.

b_lumenkraft

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Re: The Nares Strait thread
« Reply #1528 on: April 09, 2019, 09:41:44 AM »
This one caught my eye.

What am i looking at here?

Is this a tidal wave reversing the flow briefly?

johnm33

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Re: The Nares Strait thread
« Reply #1529 on: April 09, 2019, 10:26:33 AM »

I believe that's the man himself.
"Is this a tidal wave reversing the flow briefly?"
 more surge than wave, the northward movement of the tidal forcing in Baffin gives high tides in Kane and that surge does reach Lincoln sometimes.

b_lumenkraft

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Re: The Nares Strait thread
« Reply #1530 on: April 09, 2019, 10:48:25 AM »
Thank you John. :)

One more stupid question though, what's the difference between wave and surge in this context?

johnm33

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Re: The Nares Strait thread
« Reply #1531 on: April 09, 2019, 02:59:36 PM »
A tidal wave has another meaning altogether, usually nothing to do with tides, I use the term surge because the tides high-high or low-low are about 12.5 hours apart so low-high 6+ so more like a really slow swell. The tides at the Lincoln end of Nares have some peculiar resonances too iirc, and I've yet to understand them. This links to Alert and there's a tide station map for others https://www.tide-forecast.com/locations/Alert-Nunavut/tides/latest
and more here

b_lumenkraft

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Re: The Nares Strait thread
« Reply #1532 on: April 09, 2019, 03:21:51 PM »

Tor Bejnar

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Re: The Nares Strait thread
« Reply #1533 on: April 09, 2019, 07:16:16 PM »
Quote
Is this a tidal wave reversing the flow briefly?
There are times when Lincoln Sea floes move northwards when there are strong southerly winds.  I think this happened once during the Pooh Sticks race.  (I know functionally nothing about tidal forces, and they may have been present, even dominant, during the race.  Alas, I apparently did not report my watching Windy.com wind forecasts [which I did do], and my memory of when there were south winds may be faulty.)

Edit:  looking up nullschool winds for March 3 & 4 (when D Day Ice moved northwards), there were some south winds, but mostly not very strong.
« Last Edit: April 09, 2019, 08:59:48 PM by Tor Bejnar »
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uniquorn

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Re: The Nares Strait thread
« Reply #1534 on: April 09, 2019, 07:37:19 PM »
nullschool will give you old wind ;) This will give you mar23, just change the date
https://earth.nullschool.net/#2019/03/23/1500Z/wind/surface/level/orthographic=-40.26,79.05,978

b_lumenkraft

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Re: The Nares Strait thread
« Reply #1535 on: April 09, 2019, 07:54:54 PM »
Thanks for your answers Tor and Uniquorn,

i'm aware winds play a role here.

It's only, what you see in the GIF is that the whole back and forth movement occurred in only a few hours. And these are big foes, carrying huge momentum with them and therefore my thinking was this can't be due to winds. The whole body of water they are in must have moved accordingly.

b_lumenkraft

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Re: The Nares Strait thread
« Reply #1536 on: April 09, 2019, 07:55:41 PM »
Also, 'old wind' is now an official term!  ;D ;D

Tor Bejnar

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Re: The Nares Strait thread
« Reply #1537 on: April 09, 2019, 09:07:10 PM »
Thanks Uniquorn for the link.  I added an edit to my previous post.  South 'old winds' winds maxed out around 1200 hours on March 4 (at least as far as I looked) in the Lincoln Sea, and were generally from the south for a couple of days.  The ice moved north between the March 3 and March 4 Sentinel images.

And thanks for the big laugh, B_.  :)
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uniquorn

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Re: The Nares Strait thread
« Reply #1538 on: April 13, 2019, 12:08:18 PM »
update using worldview viirsbt15n, mar18-apr13. A short slow down in export during mar29-30 probably due to strong southerlies during those days.

b_lumenkraft

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Re: The Nares Strait thread
« Reply #1539 on: April 13, 2019, 09:11:24 PM »
This is a GIF showing today's (04:00 to 15:50 UTC) movement forth and back.

Has quite some pace these days. Wind helps.

uniquorn

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Re: The Nares Strait thread
« Reply #1540 on: April 15, 2019, 10:07:22 PM »
Full pink moon coming up 19apr and polynya is extending northwards again.
Worldview terra modis apr13-15

Tor Bejnar

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Re: The Nares Strait thread
« Reply #1541 on: April 16, 2019, 05:22:36 PM »
Looking at pairs of DMI-Greenland Sentinel images that are "1 day" apart (but who knows the exact number hours between any two images?) - March 14 and March 15 - I see large floes coming into the north end of Nares Strait (that I'm 'sure' will break along the way, and not create an ice jam) having moved 30 km, floes moved 65 km in Hall Basin, 35 km in Kane Basin, and 55 km in Smith Sound.  (Named locations can be found in the very first link offered in the [Greenland and Arctic Circle folder] Google Maps with place names thread Reply #1 or more directly here.)  Averaging these rates, ice is currently taking about 10 days to traverse the 500 km length of Nares Strait.
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b_lumenkraft

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b_lumenkraft

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Re: The Nares Strait thread
« Reply #1543 on: April 17, 2019, 10:30:31 AM »
Full pink moon coming up 19apr

Peak tidal amplitude will be on 20th.

Rather calm wind situation forecasted around this day with temperatures cold again, around minus 30˚C.


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Re: The Nares Strait thread
« Reply #1544 on: April 17, 2019, 11:33:03 AM »
Full pink moon coming up 19apr

Peak tidal amplitude will be on 20th.

Rather calm wind situation forecast around this day with temperatures cold again, around minus 30˚C.
Maximum tide range 1 metre? Call that a tide?
Avonmouth, England 14 metres.

But what a difference if the Arctic was subject to strong tides given that much of the Arctic shore especially on the Russian side is frozen organic rich sediment.
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b_lumenkraft

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Re: The Nares Strait thread
« Reply #1545 on: April 17, 2019, 11:49:02 AM »
Fourteen!!  :o

Phil.

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Re: The Nares Strait thread
« Reply #1546 on: April 17, 2019, 01:49:52 PM »
Yes and the resulting Severn bore moves upstream at about 12mph!

gerontocrat

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Re: The Nares Strait thread
« Reply #1547 on: April 17, 2019, 01:57:27 PM »
Fourteen!!  :o
It's the geography - a large Eustary facing west into the Atlantic gradually narrowing and shallowing. I am sure it is not the highest in the world. It would be interesting to find the places in the Arctic with the highest tides and match that to the places with the most vulnerable or invulnerable coastline. The Nares Strait is, I believe, bordered by extremely hard limestones and dolomites. (Which is why Hans Island is barely scratched by all those floes bumping into it.)
"Para a Causa do Povo a Luta Continua!"
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wdmn

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Re: The Nares Strait thread
« Reply #1548 on: April 17, 2019, 02:43:48 PM »
Off topic, but, the world's highest tides at in the Bay of Fundy, between Nova Scotia and New Brunswick, Canada.

The Bay’s tides officially measure over 15 m (50′ in height), but the incoming tide is not a 50′ wall of water. It takes 6 hours for the tides to change from low tide to high tide. That means it takes more than an hour for the tide to rise 10′ vertically. But the tide is a powerful force. In some places, it can change the direction of a river (the reversing rapids in Saint John, N.B.) or create tidal bore that flows against the current. There are many places where you can see and experience the awesomeness of the tides.

http://bayoffundytourism.com/worlds-highest-tides/



b_lumenkraft

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Re: The Nares Strait thread
« Reply #1549 on: April 17, 2019, 03:02:07 PM »
Phil, Gerontocrat, wdmn, thank you. This is great tidal trivia.  :D