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NeilT

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Re: The 2017 melting season
« Reply #3700 on: August 11, 2017, 07:29:37 AM »
That's very interesting Rob.  I guess what is more interesting is that the cold caused by that significant snow didn't have a bigger effect.

To me it looks like the whole pack is at risk of one significant storm sweeping in through the Beaufort, Chuchki and ESS and overwhelming anything retained by the snow anomaly.

Not that we might get a significant storm. That has not been the way of this melting season.

Talking about 80N temps, on the DMI chart the closest match I see is 2007...
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psymmo7

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Re: The 2017 melting season
« Reply #3701 on: August 11, 2017, 08:39:40 AM »

Re: The 2017 melting season
« Reply #3692 on: August 10, 2017, 04:17:43 PM

Has the address of the Barrow webcam changed?

http://seaice.alaska.edu/gi/observatories/barrow_webcam

gives the following message:

503 Service Unavailable
No server is available to handle this request.

Rob Dekker

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Re: The 2017 melting season
« Reply #3702 on: August 11, 2017, 09:42:50 AM »
That's very interesting Rob.  I guess what is more interesting is that the cold caused by that significant snow didn't have a bigger effect.

To me it looks like the whole pack is at risk of one significant storm sweeping in through the Beaufort, Chuchki and ESS and overwhelming anything retained by the snow anomaly.

Quite right, Neil.
It looks like the snow anomaly cooled things down, but not enough to prevent major reduction of Arctic sea ice. While in other years it would. The only fair reason I can come up with is that the ice this year is really thinner than in prior years, which adds credibility to PIOMAS' ice thickness estimates.

NeilT

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Re: The 2017 melting season
« Reply #3703 on: August 11, 2017, 11:14:46 AM »

Re: The 2017 melting season
« Reply #3692 on: August 10, 2017, 04:17:43 PM

Has the address of the Barrow webcam changed?

http://seaice.alaska.edu/gi/observatories/barrow_webcam

gives the following message:

503 Service Unavailable
No server is available to handle this request.


Looks like the whole site/ sub site is down..

http://seaice.alaska.edu/gi/observatories/barrow_sealevel
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Re: The 2017 melting season
« Reply #3704 on: August 11, 2017, 02:00:10 PM »
Not that we might get a significant storm. That has not been the way of this melting season.

Looks more like the continuous battering of smaller storms – which, summing them up, could have the same effect.

NeilT

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Re: The 2017 melting season
« Reply #3705 on: August 11, 2017, 02:43:35 PM »
Looks more like the continuous battering of smaller storms – which, summing them up, could have the same effect.

Hence why I voted for near record-record low in both the polls.  Not because the melt season has produced results which make it look like it will.  More that the melt season has made it look like it should not be melting, but it still is.

Every time I started to think that this season was going to fall away, it has done something new and different and kept on falling.

So I have decided to leave my guess/prediction as it is and see what happens.  I won't be disappointed either way because we are learning a huge amount about forced changes in Arctic ice dynamics this  year.

As far as I can see, if anything saves it from an extreme low, record or not, it will be the colder Atlantic side.
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Sterks

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Re: The 2017 melting season
« Reply #3706 on: August 11, 2017, 03:12:05 PM »
Let's put it this way: the daily NSIDC extent is today down another near century leaving it at 5,7 million Km2.
It is August 11.
The weather, and the other causes of melt and compaction from this point on are, to some extent, decoupled to the cold weather of May and July.
The evolution of extent is still open to many events.

Sterks

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Re: The 2017 melting season
« Reply #3707 on: August 11, 2017, 03:21:59 PM »
In particular bottom melt will continue in both Atlantic side and Arctic Basin. The latest SST images lead to think that the pack at the Pacific side will be very reduced.
The Atlantic front stays put at a further distance from the Pole compared to other years, but remember that the Pacific->Atlantic displacement has continued even during the last PAC. Only this displacement was inactive for those very slow melt 10 days of July that coincided with low pressures over Greenland.
This is very prejudicial for the ice, but keeps Atlantic front "at bay". As soon as some weather blows in the opposite direction, the advance of this front toward the Pole will be swift.

Finally we have potential pending storm, or pending compaction weather, or who knows.
Depending on this final weather this season has a very open range of possibilities.

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Re: The 2017 melting season
« Reply #3708 on: August 11, 2017, 04:13:34 PM »
GW: a paper out on the persistent Arctic Cyclone of 2016 that noted its feeding on other warm core lows that entered the basin

That would be:

Extreme Arctic cyclone in August 2016
A Yamagami et al   12 July 2017
http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1002/asl.757/full


Thanks for this, A-Team. Last year I wondered how GAC-2016 stacked up against GAC-2012 (and whether you could even call it a GAC), but no one seemed able to answer. It's a shame we have to wait for a full year to get some interpretations, although I believe Bob Henson did write something up at Wunderground.
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A-Team

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Re: The 2017 melting season
« Reply #3709 on: August 11, 2017, 04:17:37 PM »
Indeed, the Henson piece is quite worthwhile as is the Nasa visualization from March to 13 Aug 16

https://climatecrocks.com/2016/08/17/great-arctic-cyclone-of-2016/
https://www.nasa.gov/feature/goddard/2016/nasa-monitors-the-new-normal-of-sea-ice

Below is a reality check on ice conditions from FJL (far right) up and over the pole into the Chukchi, a piece of the most recent DTU/Saldo mosaic from Sentinel-1AB active radar. It takes a click to see as it is rather wide because of its vastly higher resolution. The north pole is along the bottom centered in the black 'pole hole' that the satellite cannot image. You can view these mosaics at http://www.seaice.dk/latest/

AMSR2 sea ice concentration from UH does quite a good job on the same area (click again), though ultimately 3125 m resolution won't stack up to the ~100x higher resolution (30 m) of Sentinel. The latter though has fairly narrow swaths so the ice can move or change -- especially during storms -- over the 3 days needed to compile these mosaics.

Speaking of delays, it appears the Sentinel-1AB is not yet integrated into any of the products we use here. It would be vastly more effective for monitoring ice movement, dispersion and compaction.

ftp://ftp-projects.cen.uni-hamburg.de/seaice/AMSR2/3.125km/Arc_20170810_res3.125_LARGE.png

The animation shows where open water has been increasing over the last ten days. We might suppose that most of the ice lost is FJI though we haven't tracked it.

Actually, with so much FYI these days, a much more nuanced treatment of the freezing season is needed as ice formed from open water in the mid-Sept minimum will have quite different properties from Chukchi ice formed from open water in mid-Dec.

Hycom has stalled out on 15 Aug 17; they normally go out a full week with predictions. Perhaps they have dialed that back to D4 or D5 in view of weather forecast unreliability beyond that. The 10 Aug thickness product correlates fairly well with AMSR2 concentration change.
« Last Edit: August 11, 2017, 05:44:21 PM by A-Team »

Jim Hunt

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Re: The 2017 melting season
« Reply #3710 on: August 11, 2017, 04:50:08 PM »
Has the address of the Barrow webcam changed?


Gina is still working AOK:

http://feeder.gina.alaska.edu/webcam-uaf-barrow-seaice-images

and is still showing waves (and rain):

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Ninebelowzero

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Re: The 2017 melting season
« Reply #3711 on: August 11, 2017, 05:45:09 PM »
Much more fast ice around Greenland mobilizes.
Images from 7th and 3rd August.

And there it goes like a cork from a bottle.

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Re: The 2017 melting season
« Reply #3712 on: August 11, 2017, 11:33:24 PM »
Pattern change evident in the ECMWF and ensembles coming up. TPV looks to weaken and split, allowing very strong ridging to intrude from the NA side over the CAA. Strong warm air advection (WAA) will commence into the CAA and NA side of the CAB, likely bringing in a hot, smoky airmass from SW Canada (enhanced by Chinook flow). That may allow some of the weaker ice to melt out on that side of the basin.

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Re: The 2017 melting season
« Reply #3713 on: August 11, 2017, 11:40:04 PM »
August 8-11 high speed, 78 hours to cover the cyclone, I find I can see the ice better.
 Wrangel in the lower left.

Edit: added the "normal speed" I make them

Looks like three is a fair amount of ice being forced up against the Canadian archipelago and down into the M'Clure Strait.

http://feeder.gina.alaska.edu/npp-gina-alaska-truecolor-images
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Sterks

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Re: The 2017 melting season
« Reply #3714 on: August 12, 2017, 12:25:28 AM »
Pattern change evident in the ECMWF and ensembles coming up. TPV looks to weaken and split, allowing very strong ridging to intrude from the NA side over the CAA. Strong warm air advection (WAA) will commence into the CAA and NA side of the CAB, likely bringing in a hot, smoky airmass from SW Canada (enhanced by Chinook flow). That may allow some of the weaker ice to melt out on that side of the basin.
Shocking news, melt has been happening for the past two weeks under wx conditions "favorable to ice retention" 

:P

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Re: The 2017 melting season
« Reply #3715 on: August 12, 2017, 01:09:38 AM »
That's very interesting Rob.  I guess what is more interesting is that the cold caused by that significant snow didn't have a bigger effect.

To me it looks like the whole pack is at risk of one significant storm sweeping in through the Beaufort, Chuchki and ESS and overwhelming anything retained by the snow anomaly.

Quite right, Neil.
It looks like the snow anomaly cooled things down, but not enough to prevent major reduction of Arctic sea ice. While in other years it would. The only fair reason I can come up with is that the ice this year is really thinner than in prior years, which adds credibility to PIOMAS' ice thickness estimates.
And don't forget ocean temperatures are a huge driver now. SSTs alone have been record high this year, almost everywhere on the planet.

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Re: The 2017 melting season
« Reply #3716 on: August 12, 2017, 01:35:56 AM »
tonight's worldview images show just how bad the conditions are on the Atlantic side of the pole . Open water is visible beyond 89'North ! . I do not see a single piece of ice more than 20km in diameter between the pole and Atlantic . Considering the weather the ice is in appalling condition so any potential disturbance will have interesting consequences .  b.c.
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wallen

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Re: The 2017 melting season
« Reply #3717 on: August 12, 2017, 02:02:41 AM »
Call it a gut feeling, but I think the the melt season may go deep into September and come closer to the 2012 record than many expect.

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Re: The 2017 melting season
« Reply #3718 on: August 12, 2017, 04:16:26 AM »
Call it a gut feeling, but I think the the melt season may go deep into September and come closer to the 2012 record than many expect.
I still think that the linchpin will be late season export. If it picks up, records are at stake, and melt season will be extended. If not, then probably no new records.

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Re: The 2017 melting season
« Reply #3719 on: August 12, 2017, 06:53:09 AM »
A quick gif of a god chunk of the Beaufort area.  Looks like a good chunk of the white stuff in the Aug 11 image is clouds.
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Re: The 2017 melting season
« Reply #3720 on: August 12, 2017, 08:00:33 AM »
Call it a gut feeling, but I think the the melt season may go deep into September and come closer to the 2012 record than many expect.
I still think that the linchpin will be late season export. If it picks up, records are at stake, and melt season will be extended. If not, then probably no new records.

The trouble is that if export happens sufficiently late in the season, the ice exported won't actually melt out.

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Re: The 2017 melting season
« Reply #3721 on: August 12, 2017, 08:04:21 AM »
I don't know. I mean, it's not like any current export is cooling the waters off to the south like in past years.

Neven

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Re: The 2017 melting season
« Reply #3722 on: August 12, 2017, 10:01:14 AM »
DMI SST anomaly maps for August 11th 2012, 2016 and 2017. Its clear that 2017 doesn't have the same oomph on the Atlantic side of the Arctic as 2016, and it's not nearly as red in the Siberian sector as it was in 2012:
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Sterks

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Re: The 2017 melting season
« Reply #3723 on: August 12, 2017, 12:44:48 PM »
Jesus. This is north of Sib. Islands, today. The concentration charts don't make justice to the degradation of the pack here.

Pavel

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Re: The 2017 melting season
« Reply #3724 on: August 12, 2017, 12:53:21 PM »
It's clear skies today on the Atlantic side and I just say WOW. If there would be a bit earlier melt ponds formation, it could be open water in the entire high Arctic

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Re: The 2017 melting season
« Reply #3725 on: August 12, 2017, 01:57:55 PM »
Jesus. This is north of Sib. Islands, today. The concentration charts don't make justice to the degradation of the pack here.

or have a look here:
ftp://ftp-projects.cen.uni-hamburg.de/seaice/AMSR2/3.125km/Arc_20170811_res3.125.png

Sterks

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Re: The 2017 melting season
« Reply #3726 on: August 12, 2017, 02:01:27 PM »
Jesus. This is north of Sib. Islands, today. The concentration charts don't make justice to the degradation of the pack here.

or have a look here:
ftp://ftp-projects.cen.uni-hamburg.de/seaice/AMSR2/3.125km/Arc_20170811_res3.125.png

It was a way of speaking, the optical sat image is most-impressive after so many cloudy days :)

NeilT

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Re: The 2017 melting season
« Reply #3727 on: August 12, 2017, 03:25:06 PM »
Looks like the NSR is finally open now.
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echoughton

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Re: The 2017 melting season
« Reply #3728 on: August 12, 2017, 03:49:38 PM »
okay...noobie time..I see "Export" all the time. What is export? My guess is the ice gets shoved away intro warmer waters by the wind, waves, storms, etc?
Thanks

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Re: The 2017 melting season
« Reply #3729 on: August 12, 2017, 04:07:03 PM »
DMI SST anomaly maps for August 11th 2012, 2016 and 2017. Its clear that 2017 doesn't have the same oomph on the Atlantic side of the Arctic as 2016, and it's not nearly as red in the Siberian sector as it was in 2012:
Sure but water flows and mixes with the deep. 90% of the total volume of ocean is found below the thermocline in the deep oceans. It's not just SSTs that are record high when you take the average of the entire globe (and might now be mildly showing in the North), it's also lower depth currents that will cause ice to thin fast(er). Note that both vertical and horizontal mixing has worryingly increased almost everywhere the past 2 decades. Enhanced thermocline mixing is one of the reasons why temperature, sharpness and depth of the equatorial Pacific thermocline (critical to the development of El Ninõ and Southern Oscillation) have changed a lot, and which is why we don't see much of a La Niña this year.
My gut feeling still says we'll go below 2012 this year, if only because of that.
« Last Edit: August 12, 2017, 04:15:06 PM by liefde »

Richard Rathbone

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Re: The 2017 melting season
« Reply #3730 on: August 12, 2017, 04:08:39 PM »
okay...noobie time..I see "Export" all the time. What is export? My guess is the ice gets shoved away intro warmer waters by the wind, waves, storms, etc?
Thanks

Yes.
The most significant of these are down the sides of Greenland, mainly the Fram but some via Nares too.

The actual amount of ice exported via the Fram is fairly small in the summer, but the same sort of weather that drives high melt in the Arctic also results in high export from it via the Fram, so seeing a lot of ice coming out of the Fram in the summer is a good indicator that there are high melt rates going on in the Arctic itself.

Export via the Fram used to be important for controlling how thick the ice got, back in the days when it could go round and round for 10 years before falling out of the Fram, but it doesn't get the chance to last that many years before getting melted within the arctic now.

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Re: The 2017 melting season
« Reply #3731 on: August 12, 2017, 04:20:39 PM »
I think we all have to accept that the halocline across the Arctic, which I believe could reach 100ft depth?, is now mixed away ( at least at the surface) meaning we have a situation like antarctica, where a 'home grown' halocline forms beneath the ice as it forms but that as soon as the ice fractures in swells then the layer is rapidly rubbed out allowing warmer , saltier, water at the base of the ice?

Unless we do have lots of extra thin ice I reckon the rest of the season will keep track with 2016 which also saw similar late season conditions?

Should export pick up , or mighty deep storms form then we may well see 2012 passed but it will take an extra shove for that to happen?
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Jim Hunt

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Re: The 2017 melting season
« Reply #3732 on: August 12, 2017, 04:30:53 PM »
Looks like the NSR is finally open now.

Judging by what Neil? See also:

https://forum.arctic-sea-ice.net/index.php/topic,854.msg122408.html#msg122408

et seq.
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FishOutofWater

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Re: The 2017 melting season
« Reply #3733 on: August 12, 2017, 05:36:09 PM »
Most of the Arctic is still strongly stratified. The warm salty Atlantic layer is below several hundred meters of cold fresh water in most of the Arctic ocean and is hundreds of meters thick. The Arctic does not resemble Antarctica. There's a vast difference in the marine and atmospheric dynamics of a polar ocean versus a polar continent. Please, folks, don't make stuff up when you haven't gone to the trouble to read up on the basic science of the oceans and the atmosphere.

NeilT

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Re: The 2017 melting season
« Reply #3734 on: August 12, 2017, 06:35:08 PM »
Looks like the NSR is finally open now.

Judging by what Neil? See also:

https://forum.arctic-sea-ice.net/index.php/topic,854.msg122408.html#msg122408

et seq.

I was looking at Bremen AMSR2 which has been showing it congested up until today.  Bremen finally shows it clear.  Although I'll have to go and take a look at the site you linked. When I get time that is.
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liefde

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Re: The 2017 melting season
« Reply #3735 on: August 12, 2017, 09:17:04 PM »
Most of the Arctic is still strongly stratified. The warm salty Atlantic layer is below several hundred meters of cold fresh water in most of the Arctic ocean and is hundreds of meters thick. The Arctic does not resemble Antarctica. There's a vast difference in the marine and atmospheric dynamics of a polar ocean versus a polar continent. Please, folks, don't make stuff up when you haven't gone to the trouble to read up on the basic science of the oceans and the atmosphere.
The ESAS is only around 50 meters deep, and a pretty huge driver, especially considering http://arctic.ru/climate/20170809/655109.html.

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Re: The 2017 melting season
« Reply #3736 on: August 12, 2017, 09:48:23 PM »
Looks like the NSR is finally open now.

Judging by what Neil? See also:

https://forum.arctic-sea-ice.net/index.php/topic,854.msg122408.html#msg122408

et seq.

Um, yeah, there's that little patch of 10-30% probability ice with a couple of small patches of 50% probability ice at 78 degrees north on the right side of the chart, which, on worldview, don't look too scary.  But I'm not a sailor and don't play one on tv.

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Re: The 2017 melting season
« Reply #3737 on: August 12, 2017, 11:00:09 PM »
Bremen maps, 7 days ending Aug. 11. Original, median filter, last-below-90 filter. (Filters are based on 5 days ending on the labelled day. See previous posts for caveats.)

Pacific side continues to erode and looks like more area is thinning inside the new ice edge, preparing to do the same. But the Pacific side storms seem to be abating (for now), so maybe this thin ice can survive?

Atlantic side -- near-term forecasts suggest that maybe it is finally time for that side to get some bad weather. It will be interesting to see if the ice there is as weak as it has proven to be on the Pacific side.
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Re: The 2017 melting season
« Reply #3738 on: August 12, 2017, 11:24:14 PM »
<snip, off-topic and too long, send a PM to F.Tnioli or post elsewhere.>

Discussion moved from here to "Whose data is wrong?" thread:
https://forum.arctic-sea-ice.net/index.php/topic,635.0.html
« Last Edit: August 13, 2017, 12:05:40 AM by VeliAlbertKallio »

Pavel

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Re: The 2017 melting season
« Reply #3739 on: August 12, 2017, 11:35:48 PM »
Persistent heat advection forecasted in the Canadian side and huge areas face surface melting. Need to click the 5-hours O-buoy today's animation

numerobis

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Re: The 2017 melting season
« Reply #3740 on: August 13, 2017, 12:32:54 AM »
greatdying2: call me crazy, but is there a cloud artifact in your animation or is there actually a chunk of ice migrating in a couple days from the central siberian coast to the bering sea?

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Re: The 2017 melting season
« Reply #3741 on: August 13, 2017, 12:34:51 AM »
I came across this very ambitious site the other day. It provides an astonishing 21 Arctic forecast graphics, all very nicely done, on a single page. It appears to be the work of Dr. Amy Solomon, a specialist in Arctic cloud-atmospheric boundary layer-surface layer feedbacks.

It's not evident where the unusual map projection is described, nor why only the region from Bering Strait to North Pole is shown, nor where gridded data is provided (beyond the two weeks of netCDF and July 2016). Without these, it's not feasible to make overlays or comparisons with piomas or polar stereographic products.

However new sea ice thickness prediction engines don't come along every day and so this might be a site to keep an eye on. Feedback from users is encouraged.

https://www.esrl.noaa.gov/psd/people/amy.solomon/seaice.html
https://www.esrl.noaa.gov/psd/people/amy.solomon/vitae.html

PSD Experimental Arctic Sea Ice Forecast

These plots are produced from an experimental Arctic sea-ice forecast with a dynamical coupled ocean-atmosphere-sea ice-land model (RASM-ESRL). The RASM-ESRL model is a modified version of the Regional Arctic System Model (RASM; Maslowski et al. 2012) and includes the WRF Version 3.5.1 atmosphere model, the Los Alamos National Laboratory CICE Version 5.1 sea ice model, the Parallel Ocean Program Version 2 (POP2) ocean model, and the NCAR CLM Version 4.5 land surface model.

All components are run with a 9-10km horizontal grid and the WRF model is run with 40 vertical levels. RASM-ESRL model forced at the lateral boundaries by GFS 3-hourly forecasts of winds, temperature, and water vapor initialized at 12 UTC every day. This material is based upon work supported by NOAA/OAR under the auspices of the National Earth System Prediction Capability (National ESPC).
« Last Edit: August 13, 2017, 01:18:05 AM by A-Team »

A-Team

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Re: The 2017 melting season
« Reply #3742 on: August 13, 2017, 01:30:16 AM »
Another look at gd2's #3737, UH below for the large change seen so far in August.

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Re: The 2017 melting season
« Reply #3743 on: August 13, 2017, 01:48:53 AM »
greatdying2: call me crazy, but is there a cloud artifact in your animation or is there actually a chunk of ice migrating in a couple days from the central siberian coast to the bering sea?

Yes, there is strong evidence of a new form of ice that has become airborne and sentient, and plans to recolonize the Earth. Just kidding  :o ;D yes it's a set of artifacts -- same on the original and the last-below-90 versions. One advantage of the median filter is that it eliminates artifacts such as these. (The minimum filter also would eliminate this artifact, but I no longer show it because I think the last-under-90 filter does a better job reflecting reality and is more responsive to day-to-day change.)

A-team -- The change is already impressive. The big question is, will it stop or will the next 2 weeks be as impressive... and nice find on that NOAA site!
« Last Edit: August 13, 2017, 01:56:44 AM by greatdying2 »
The Permian–Triassic extinction event, a.k.a. the Great Dying, occurred about 250 million years ago and is the most severe known extinction event. Up to 96% of all marine species and 70% of terrestrial vertebrate species became extinct; it is also the only known mass extinction of insects.

Sebastian Jones

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Re: The 2017 melting season
« Reply #3744 on: August 13, 2017, 05:08:45 AM »
Does anyone have an explanation for the Laptev polyna? Considering how mobile the ice appears to be, I'm surprised not just that a hole would appear way off in the pack, but how persistent it is.

greatdying2

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Re: The 2017 melting season
« Reply #3745 on: August 13, 2017, 06:24:19 AM »
Yes Sebastian, it's odd, isn't it? Also, a polynya appeared in the same location in 2012 and 2013. Must be a current.

Attached is the 1-day change (90% filter). Additional serious losses (perhaps area more than extent?) in and north of the Beaufort. Also looks like the Laptev bite may be preparing to recede.
The Permian–Triassic extinction event, a.k.a. the Great Dying, occurred about 250 million years ago and is the most severe known extinction event. Up to 96% of all marine species and 70% of terrestrial vertebrate species became extinct; it is also the only known mass extinction of insects.

Rob Dekker

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Re: The 2017 melting season
« Reply #3746 on: August 13, 2017, 08:26:38 AM »
Andrew Slater's model projects 5.39 M km^2 for Oct 1.
So I guess that's the upper bound for the September average.


Rob Dekker

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Re: The 2017 melting season
« Reply #3747 on: August 13, 2017, 09:23:04 AM »
The lower-bound for September average from the Slater's forecast model was 4.5 M km^2, which occurred in the first half of  September.


Jim Hunt

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Re: The 2017 melting season
« Reply #3748 on: August 13, 2017, 11:09:26 AM »
UH below for the large change seen so far in August.


An unenhanced YouTube version of the whole summer:



Sorry about the "bumps", but hopefully you get the idea.

Is there any chance that the management can persuade YouTube embedding to start working again?

<Edit Neven: YouTube vids should work once you remove the s from https. Folks who don't see the YouTube window, click on 'no longer available'>
« Last Edit: August 13, 2017, 11:40:02 AM by Neven »
Reality is merely an illusion, albeit a very persistent one - Albert Einstein

Pi26

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Re: The 2017 melting season
« Reply #3749 on: August 13, 2017, 11:29:08 AM »
The lower-bound for September average from the Slater's forecast model was 4.5 M km^2, which occurred in the first half of  September.

But seems in a few days the observed line has to continue horizontally until september 20?
« Last Edit: August 13, 2017, 11:41:11 AM by Pi26 »