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Author Topic: Heating with wood or pellets ? and air heat pump ?  (Read 7292 times)

mati

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Re: Heating with wood or pellets ? and air heat pump ?
« Reply #50 on: January 09, 2017, 11:53:36 PM »
My Grandfather was a stone mason and built heating walls.
An entire wall of the house was built so that from the central
firehole, the chimney would snake back and forth and heat
up the entire wall.
My mother said, she would build a roaring fire in the morning
and when it had burnt down, the coals would be take out, and
a wooden door put in place to stop the heat escaping.
The wall would heat the room for an entire day.
:)
and so it goes

sidd

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Re: Heating with wood or pellets ? and air heat pump ?
« Reply #51 on: January 10, 2017, 07:38:36 AM »
Hypocausts. I have thought about it, but always went for hot water in pex and hydronic heat. Could put it in the walls i suppose, but mediating heat transfer with water seems like a nobrainer, at a heat capacity gain of 800 per unit mass or so.

Next step is to add Glauber's salt tanks to use the phase change storage, but have not got around to it yet. So far used giant insulated tanks of water, but you can drop the volume requirement so dramatically (factor of 70 or so) for equivalent heat storage. I always seemed to have several thousand gallon tanks around when I needed heat storage, so i always went with water. But I could have done the same job with a buncha barrels instead, if i could have been sure of skilled operators to maintain salt concentration.  Unfortunately  that was mostly not the case.

O vell. next time.

sidd

johnm33

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Re: Heating with wood or pellets ? and air heat pump ?
« Reply #52 on: January 10, 2017, 02:13:05 PM »
Sounds like a russian stove to me, Ive been contemplating building something between a russian stove and a rocket stove. The idea is to have a permanent chimney fire whilst the fires alight, then to prevent the heat escaping by closing off the air flow once things have warmed up. It's very hard to find out what will serve as the flue for a long enough period, i've thought about using fondue cement, or pozzolanic [crushed fired clay+lime+perlite] or fire clay as the liner or even to make it accessible enough to replace the first 1-1.5M of flue and fitting stainless flue liner or even cast iron to contain the chimney fire section. The advantage of casting a flue would be to create a surface that forces a vortex to form, the advantage of the permanent chimney fire is that 100% of the heat is extracted from the fuel,and the emissions are just co2+h2o.
About 20 years ago there was an inventor living in a former church in Kelso[scots borders] who had mastered the art of containing a rocket stove within a fire, his claims and testemonials were off the scale, plus he claimed zero emissions, his fire kept the whole building warm [it fed about a dozen rads.].

mati

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Re: Heating with wood or pellets ? and air heat pump ?
« Reply #53 on: January 10, 2017, 05:00:22 PM »
I found a link to the kind of stove i think my grandfather made, a masonary heater:

http://www.mha-net.org/what-is-a-masonry-heater/


and so it goes

theoldinsane

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Re: Heating with wood or pellets ? and air heat pump ?
« Reply #54 on: January 10, 2017, 06:59:07 PM »
Tile stoves were first designed in Sweden in the 18th century in response to a shortage of wood suitable for burning. With a heat-retaining cast iron core and long multi-channel flues, the kakelugns retain heat, keeping rooms warm up to a whole day after the fire is out. Add a cozy touch to your interior with such a stove – it will not only give a comfy touch but also warm you up if you like. Such a stove can fit almost any interior, from a traditional one to ultra-minimalist. Most of tile stoves are white, some of them have patterns but don't hesitate to make a statement with a colorful modern one.

http://resources.made-in-china.com/article/industry-trends/vJgEnlxKBmDY/29-Traditional-Tile-Stoves-in-Home-D-Cor/

John

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Re: Heating with wood or pellets ? and air heat pump ?
« Reply #55 on: January 10, 2017, 07:56:46 PM »
I agree with the tile stove concept. One of our neighbors heats his house al day with one load of wood... estimating 30x30x100 cm as a load. He shuts down the non essential rooms and his house has modern insulation so it keeps heat. Here is a link to an example page: http://www.marchesoni.it/it/stufe-su-misura/stufe-maiolica/stufe-a-ole

The interesting thing is that I understand there is no air inlet. He cracks the door to the stove for a few minutes to get it hot and burning well and then closes it. The air, according to him, comes back down the chimney slowly and so the wood burns all day long slowly. I am not going to swear to this part of the story because I am not sure it makes sense to me, but the result seems to.

One nice benefit is that this massive pile of ceramics/stone get warm and it is nice to be able to physically touch the source of heat, as opposed to a metal stove that would burn you.

nicibiene

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Re: Heating with wood or pellets ? and air heat pump ?
« Reply #56 on: January 10, 2017, 08:56:23 PM »
I wish we would have prepared for a tiled stove.  :'( The principle is to lead the hot air through channels to catch the heat in the stone masses that are in the rooms-not to leave it through the chimney. It is a pleasant heat coming from that kind of ovens. The principle of floor heating system is the same and you need much less energy to get a comfortable warmth.
“We cannot solve our problems with the same thinking we used when we created them.” –“Learn from yesterday, live for today, hope for tomorrow. The important thing is not to stop questioning.” Albert Einstein

Neven

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Re: Heating with wood or pellets ? and air heat pump ?
« Reply #57 on: January 10, 2017, 11:03:13 PM »
We also wanted one, made of loam. But the weight simply couldn't be supported by our floor, and it would have been too costly to have an extra foundation laid for it. It was too expensive anyhow, at least 7000 euros. The project we just finished, cost us 3700 euros, which is still a bit steep, but we decided to pay more for a top quality stove (2000 euros).

I also regret we couldn't install a water-heating stove connected to our 300 liter boiler upstairs, but the stove would've overheated the water (and our polybutylene water pipes can't stand much more than 65 °C), while the air temperature downstairs would still be too low. I'm glad I listened to my plumber and re-calculated my rosy picture.

I then opted for an air-water heat exchanger in the flue right behind the stove, but suspected it wouldn't return on the investment (lots of installation work, creosote cleaning, for just a few kWh worth of water, with the risk of the chimney not getting hot enough). I'm glad I didn't do that either.

All in all, I'm happy. Temps have been really low, it's -13 °C outside as I write this, but it's really comfortable in our living quarters now. Some time soon we're going to try to cook on the stove. If that works well, we're going to save some more kWh in electricity.
Il faut cultiver notre jardin

sidd

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Re: Heating with wood or pellets ? and air heat pump ?
« Reply #58 on: January 11, 2017, 05:36:47 AM »
Re: water overheat

Yes. For a waterjacket on a wood burner, you always need a place to dump excess heat. Else you risk steam explosion (BLEVE), not nice.

etienne

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Re: Heating with wood or pellets ? and air heat pump ?
« Reply #59 on: January 11, 2017, 06:17:32 PM »
Hello,

I got my chimneys cleaned today, and the guy said that the rotative things are not a good idea excepted with very clean fuel (natural gas mainly). They would get dirty and wouldn't turn well after a few years.

I have a drawing problem on one of the chimney and the solution is to change the stove or increase the size of the chimney.

Best regards,

Etienne

in4apenny

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Re: Heating with wood or pellets ? and air heat pump ?
« Reply #60 on: January 11, 2017, 06:28:55 PM »

I have a drawing problem on one of the chimney and the solution is to change the stove or increase the size of the chimney.


Is that a chimney flue liner & if so how old is it , if it's getting on a bit then maybe the best option to replace that.

etienne

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Re: Heating with wood or pellets ? and air heat pump ?
« Reply #61 on: January 12, 2017, 04:23:24 PM »

Is that a chimney flue liner & if so how old is it , if it's getting on a bit then maybe the best option to replace that.
The house is only 15 to 18 years old. The guy who cleaned the chimney said that it looked like never used. Material really seems standard, and generally speaking, we didn't have any bad surprises with the house. The two other chimney are ok (for the main wood stove on the ground floor and for the central heating burning heating oil). It really is too short, the stove user's manual requires 8 meters and we only have 5 because the stove is on the first floor.

Thanks,

Etienne

johnm33

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Re: Heating with wood or pellets ? and air heat pump ?
« Reply #62 on: March 12, 2017, 10:04:23 PM »
I had a few random thoughts after the above exchange, so hypocausts, every time i've read about an excavation of a 'roman' villa, in the uk they've allways been burnt out, so i wondered if the build up of soot and ensuing 'chimney' fire was the cause. Then what are the chances of nobody discovering the rocket stove effect or perhaps the original design was a rocket stove, or russian/masonry stove type, otherwise would the villa have a very short lifetime? and is anyone using this today, given the popularity of beam and block flooring systems? The only lnk I could find was an expired Spanish one using a tiled stove, similar to those referred to above, but no real details about the service to underfloor.  You'd think there may be some CO issues or condensation problems but nothing beyond the wit of man.