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5to10

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Re: 2017 open thread
« Reply #150 on: March 02, 2017, 10:46:50 AM »
It's rather hard these days to be both well informed and completely at all optimistic.

But if you mean, with Antonio Gramsci: Optimismo de la voluntad y pesimismo de la razón, then I can perhaps follow you, at least on some days.  :) :(


"Optimism of the will and pessimism of reason"


The duality of thought that I've often tried to find the words for.


My intellect screams that there is no hope. The rest of me says that 'this too shall pass', that 'every problem has a solution', and that 'it's always darkest near the dawn'.


Intelligence at war with cliches.
Intellect vs. life experience.
Knowledge against instinct.


Different mental processes produce divergent answers even though the data is equivalent. A single mind accepts the inevitable, yet it fights & struggles as though change might somehow prevail.
 
I can't believe there is any glimmer of hope, yet to do nothing, even with certainty that nothing  can possibility prevail, seems monstrous.


Optimismo de la voluntad y pesimismo de la razón
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[/size]Terry

And perhaps doing what you can is good enough. Maybe that is the whole point.

It certainly seems better than doing nothing at all. You can get into arguments about "It would take x amount of years longer for life to restart, if at all, if we fuck things up worse trying to stop it", but I would have to counter with "There is already an incredibly diverse, living world here, with an incredible sea of consciousness. Why not fight to preserve it, to improve it, if we cannot say it is impossible yet?"

Global unity has never occurred. We have no idea what we could accomplish if the majority of us came together, I imagine they would be great things. I am absolutely beyond the shadow of a doubt certain (Even if partially through optimistic faith) that this is part of our only chance. Nothing will come of this perpetual state of division.



Beyond a shift in consciousness, what about quantum computing? A focused effort on a specialized rig that can offer us solutions based on the vast amount of data?
« Last Edit: March 02, 2017, 10:51:56 AM by 5to10 »

Cid_Yama

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Re: 2017 open thread
« Reply #151 on: March 02, 2017, 11:31:19 AM »
History is rife with examples of when it would have been best if nothing was done, and they had just kept their hands off.

Your urge to do something, anything, is not reason enough to suffer the unintended consequences that come with any action.

Good intentions are not enough.  And all you would be doing would be trying to satisfy some personal primitive instinct arising out of fear.

Action should only occur When there is a thoroughly examined plan, with a high probability of success.

Script writers often include characters that act out of fear, even when they were told not to, that messes everything up.  The rest of the play is then about trying to clean up the unintended consequences of the actions of that character.

Don't be that person.

 

   

« Last Edit: March 02, 2017, 11:43:48 AM by Cid_Yama »

6roucho

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Re: 2017 open thread
« Reply #152 on: March 02, 2017, 11:36:19 AM »
>I agree it's a mistake to think of evolution as a goal: evolution is purely a process, but it undoubtedly is responsible for [almost] everything we are as animals.

Although CRISPR has the potential to change all that!
I had to Google that. That's pretty cool. Except in the hands of politicians.

6roucho

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Re: 2017 open thread
« Reply #153 on: March 02, 2017, 11:39:34 AM »
Beyond a shift in consciousness, what about quantum computing? A focused effort on a specialized rig that can offer us solutions based on the vast amount of data?
Unfortunately, realty is a far more powerful processor then even quantum computers. There's no point at which a sufficiently detailed model of a tree becomes a tree. Thus, the tree will always have the potential to surprise us. Large, dynamic, natural systems commensurately more so.

OrganicSu

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Re: 2017 open thread
« Reply #154 on: March 02, 2017, 12:03:08 PM »
Dearest 5to10 - if you think you know what actions are needed on the global level to fix AGW and planetary destruction then it's time to live those changes. Be the change you want to see.
I'd also love to hear your ideas as I want to include more actions on my personal side.

5to10

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Re: 2017 open thread
« Reply #155 on: March 02, 2017, 12:38:22 PM »
Dearest 5to10 - if you think you know what actions are needed on the global level to fix AGW and planetary destruction then it's time to live those changes. Be the change you want to see.
I'd also love to hear your ideas as I want to include more actions on my personal side.

I feel a bit like a broken record saying it, but it will never stop ringing true until a feasible alternative is presented:

The only truth I can see is that media must have a paradigm shift for us to have any chance of recovery, such that overall unity in global consciousness towards clear positive purpose is possible, and that the most realistic way to do that is by communicating with the individual reporters/journalists, make them acutely aware of their influence on the situation and present them the clear moral choice. No, I do not know how exactly to do this, that's why I'm here talking with people. We can figure this out together, much like we must figure out the big problem together.

However I know they must collaborate with scientists as this happens to put together some kind of rough roadmap, such that they can eventually tell the world "Here it is, our best shot at reversing the damage we've done and a hopeful future. Everyone is asked to help in any way they can, here are the locations you can sign up to help and for what and when. Let us fight for our lives together, for all living things on Earth." etc.. Basically, media, as the eyes/ears/mouth of humanity and directors of global consciousness, must serve that purpose honorably and truthfully and abruptly raise global awareness in a positive, hopeful manner. Scientists must work together as well to provide the plans. I truly believe once unity occurs, our progress towards recovery will speed up immensely. Solutions will appear with much greater ease, implementation will obviously be a breeze in comparison, especially manpower related doubts.

You must realize, when we look at problems like the 10 million pumps in the arctic to refreeze it solution, we view them in the context of a divided world. Regardless of if it's a worthwhile endeavour, one of the issues with implementation was always manpower. Well, if we have the vast majority of humanity, the issues of manpower and as such time begin to disappear.

Ultimately one of the biggest difficulties will be reaching a consensus on what ideas to use, where to start.. But I believe a worthy consensus can be reached together if we aim for it.

I do think one of the best things we can do right now is spread this optimistic awareness to people who can understand, and will not freak out about it. The idea of global unity towards fixing this, and a better future. Getting people on the same page is the goal, and we can be doing that right now in many ways. Educate people, but always stay optimistic.



As for my idea "arising out of fear", it's not. I have no fear of facing this down, I don't fear death and I'm content with my life in almost every way these days, and I live a very simple, frugal life.

My idea arises out of hopeful optimism, and understanding that recognizing the fundamentals that need to be taken care of are crucial. Media paradigm shift is, in my mind, one of the fundamental first steps, a necessity.

I get that we can't just say "We are doomed soon unless we work together on a fleeting chance. Here are no solutions for you to work with. Figure it out." We must have clear focus in our plan, this is true. But perhaps we need to be unified for clear focus to find that plan.
« Last Edit: March 02, 2017, 12:59:23 PM by 5to10 »

5to10

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Re: 2017 open thread
« Reply #156 on: March 02, 2017, 01:04:39 PM »
I think a lot of people who have read any of what I've written here understand that it is a real glimmer of hope. I know some must based on responses, and also because as far as I can tell it is rational truth, and the mind of a scientist cannot deny rational truth.

Unity is our only hope, in fact, we surely understand this is true when we think about it.

So we must work towards it, we have to keep talking and throwing ideas out there. Any and all ideas, not all must be used but in contemplating all of them we may lead ourselves to further new ideas, and eventually a real solution. Then we can progress to the second daunting task: Using our newfound unity to fix what we've broken, or die trying.

I don't care if that unity comes by way of the idea I've presented. This is my best effort, these are my best thoughts. I HOPE someone can think of a better, easier solution, if not I humbly request anyone willing to consider this idea as optimistic will help discuss it and figure out how it can work. How do we achieve unity? This is a critical question.
« Last Edit: March 02, 2017, 01:10:51 PM by 5to10 »

Cid_Yama

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Re: 2017 open thread
« Reply #157 on: March 02, 2017, 01:17:03 PM »
If only we had unity...  You might as well wish for aliens to save us.  It's all just wishful thinking.

And even if you had everyone on the same page, what would you do exactly?  It's already far beyond the point of being able to do anything.

Jim White had an excellent example.  An explorer is paddling his canoe down the river, he sees the river becomes a waterfall, but by this time it's too late to get to the shore.

Sometimes you just don't realize until it's too late. 

 
   
« Last Edit: March 02, 2017, 01:39:16 PM by Cid_Yama »

OrganicSu

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Re: 2017 open thread
« Reply #158 on: March 02, 2017, 01:35:20 PM »
if we have the vast majority of humanity, the issues of manpower and as such time begin to disappear.

Getting people on the same page is the goal, and we can be doing that right now in many ways. Educate people, but always stay optimistic.

As for my idea "arising out of fear", it's not.

Media paradigm shift is, in my mind, one of the fundamental first steps, a necessity.
If we get humanity working on AGW with total focus I totally believe we can solve this. Explain to someone in a hospital who is on life support the new focus on solving AGW and if he/she has enough energy to plant 1 tree before he/she dies and I am sure they will get out of bed to plant it and die happier.

I personally do not read or see fear in any of your messages. Real desire to fix a serious problem usually comes after fear has subsided.

My uncle was an environmental journalist for 40 years. Eventually let go as he wouldn't toe the line and write that the problem isn't so bad. However, even he believes it is ok if I fly to see my mother. Airlines are responsible only around 3% of humanity's yearly emissions... 2 people look at the same thing and get different answers. I believe we need to stop every single plane immediately. Unfortunately that only reduces our emissions by 3%, so we need to cut back way way more. Relying on nature to be a net carbon sink is not guaranteed going forward. She is burning, defreezing and burping methane.

I'm still optimistic. I am. Glimpses of the distant future seem to include humans in it. How? Don't know. But I want to live the way that would best increase our and nature's beings' chances.

dnem

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Re: 2017 open thread
« Reply #159 on: March 02, 2017, 01:39:30 PM »
Building on what 5to10 is saying, there is a pretty deep literature on how social movements begin and build.  It is a highly non-linear process.  Ideas do sweep through populations in a dramatic way and it's not well understood exactly how it happens (and it may not really be fully understandable).  Sometimes it has it roots in self-preservation.  Think the change in public attitudes about smoking in this country.

But there are lots of examples of huge shifts in the public zeitgeist: slavery, gay marriage and LGBT rights, drunk driving, seatbelt use, etc. The media play a role but they are not the be all and end all of how these changes arise.

Obviously the shift we need is far vaster and more universal than any that has ever occurred on the planet.  It will come, if it does, after it is "too late" in many ways, but it may yet come.  Like many here, I think some irrefutable weather disasters will probably be needed to catalyze it.  So far, what seems irrefutable to us is still roundly ignored by most.  We shall see...

Cid_Yama

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Re: 2017 open thread
« Reply #160 on: March 02, 2017, 01:55:13 PM »
A man falls off the top of the Sears Tower.  So far he's fine.  But there is NOTHING that will keep him from going splat on the pavement below.

Optimism won't help.  Flapping his arms like a bird won't help.  Aiming for a soft place to land won't help.

Sometimes it's just too late, and anything else is just wishful thinking.

We have crossed the threshold. (actually, several of them)  There is no going back.
« Last Edit: March 02, 2017, 02:02:59 PM by Cid_Yama »

Tigertown

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Re: 2017 open thread
« Reply #161 on: March 02, 2017, 02:00:15 PM »
It seems that China has "shifted" in view and action, spending billions to do so. And with this willingness and strong drive, note this excerpt,"As part of commitments made in the global Paris Climate agreement, China will introduce a cap on coal and seek to peak its carbon dioxide emissions by 2030."  Incredible, how anyone thinks you can pump out CO2 that much longer until it peaks, and then gradually reduce emissions. If the whole world turned around in their view and goals, they couldn't act any faster.
www.abc.net.au/news/2017-03-02/china-coal-cuts-and-renewables-transform-climate-change-leader/8316660

dnem

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Re: 2017 open thread
« Reply #162 on: March 02, 2017, 02:08:25 PM »
So what's your point Cid?  Why do you even post here?

The other day I offered a tongue-in-cheek fictitious news report celebrating a drop in holiday shopping.  Another future vision that will indicate that a shift is afoot: Imagine, if you can, a candidate running for office on a platform the explicitly states that a conventional view of "prosperity" is NOT what he or she is promoting.  In the US, even the far left wing of the democratic party - Warren and Sanders - are still promoting a vision of "good jobs" and traditional prosperity for all. 

We need a public vision based on communality, cooperation, healing, less work, less consumption, more meaning.  Again, not holding my breath, but I know that what we need is so, so much better than what we have.

Cid_Yama

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Re: 2017 open thread
« Reply #163 on: March 02, 2017, 02:29:18 PM »
My point is the time we have left.  Wasting it or using it.

Now is the time to live as it is the only time you will have.  Think quality instead of quantity.  Leave that job you hate.  Stop planning for a future that will never be.

Make peace with yourself. Love your family.



     

CognitiveBias

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Re: 2017 open thread
« Reply #164 on: March 02, 2017, 02:43:53 PM »
This thread has gone off in a spiritual/metaphysical direction.  It's open so it goes wherever...  I just don't see much point.  Thanks to dnem for some grounded posts.  I am somewhat of an anti-consumerist myself.   One main issue I have here is with the presumption of catastrophic consequences.  Difficult and disruptive, sure.  But the earth will not suddenly become a barren rock because a blanket of anthropogenic ghg causes 2 or 5 or 10 degrees warming in the next 100 years.


The degree of action will match the degree of inconvenience.  It will not be 'too late'.  It will be at the time of our (the collective) choosing. 

Some side effects:

1) Humankind will learn about a lot geoengineering, both inadvertent and practical
2) Seed colonies (of humans) with that knowledge will emigrate 1st to other parts of our solar system and then beyond
3) Those that remain on the overheated earth will undertake to mitigate the damage, including perhaps some far-fetched attempts to rebuild the ice cap.  This discussion is far more practical and interesting than what's been landing on this thread lately, imo.

For those who think its a horrible idea that the 'nasty' human germ spreads to other places to wreak havoc:

1) Perhaps we have learned a good lesson here, and will do better in the future
2) What do you think the universe is good for, if not the conquest of those best suited.  Which, btw, to the best of our collective current knowledge, is us.


There is another thread where the discussion focuses on population reduction and sustainable living.  That intersection has always existed.  Turmoil and upheaval follows directly from unsustainable population density.  Self-correcting.  Technology allows for increased production and therefore population density.  Denying technology does not in any way address the underlying issue.  Only when the true costs of human all human activity is accounted for will we get back in balance.  That does not limit population density at all.
« Last Edit: March 02, 2017, 10:35:58 PM by CognitiveBias »

josh-j

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Re: 2017 open thread
« Reply #165 on: March 02, 2017, 02:49:04 PM »
Cid, I will choose to live my life in such a way that I can die with the satisfaction of knowing I tried all I could to prevent or limit a terrible catastrophe and with hope for the goodness of human nature.

If we fail then so be it. But to go to the grave having done sod all to attempt to limit such a disaster as we are facing is a terrible thought to my mind. Even if it were clear that this is inevitable (I do not think it is really even possible to know that at this point, even though the prospects aren't great), I would still gain far more satisfaction in my life from actually trying to do something about it anyway, and die happier knowing I represented the final burning flame of human optimism for all that we love.

I do not wish to go quietly into the night

Cid_Yama

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Re: 2017 open thread
« Reply #166 on: March 02, 2017, 03:01:52 PM »
To each his own.  May your path bring you joy.

6roucho

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Re: 2017 open thread
« Reply #167 on: March 02, 2017, 03:34:09 PM »
Building on what 5to10 is saying, there is a pretty deep literature on how social movements begin and build.  It is a highly non-linear process.  Ideas do sweep through populations in a dramatic way and it's not well understood exactly how it happens (and it may not really be fully understandable).  Sometimes it has it roots in self-preservation.  Think the change in public attitudes about smoking in this country.

But there are lots of examples of huge shifts in the public zeitgeist: slavery, gay marriage and LGBT rights, drunk driving, seatbelt use, etc. The media play a role but they are not the be all and end all of how these changes arise.

Obviously the shift we need is far vaster and more universal than any that has ever occurred on the planet.  It will come, if it does, after it is "too late" in many ways, but it may yet come.  Like many here, I think some irrefutable weather disasters will probably be needed to catalyze it.  So far, what seems irrefutable to us is still roundly ignored by most.  We shall see...
One problem is that there's a powerful shift already underway, and its towards nativism and nationalism. It could be argued that this is a misguided response to politics, but if it takes hold then it'll be as hard to stop as other populist movements.

gerontocrat

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Re: 2017 open thread
« Reply #168 on: March 02, 2017, 03:41:12 PM »
Cid, I will choose to live my life in such a way that I can die with the satisfaction of knowing I tried all I could to prevent or limit a terrible catastrophe and with hope for the goodness of human nature.

If we fail then so be it. But to go to the grave having done sod all to attempt to limit such a disaster as we are facing is a terrible thought to my mind. Even if it were clear that this is inevitable (I do not think it is really even possible to know that at this point, even though the prospects aren't great), I would still gain far more satisfaction in my life from actually trying to do something about it anyway, and die happier knowing I represented the final burning flame of human optimism for all that we love.

I do not wish to go quietly into the night

"Do not go gentle into that good night,
 Old age should burn and rage at close of day;
  Rage, rage against the dying of the light. "

Dylan Thomas




"Para a Causa do Povo a Luta Continua!"

nicibiene

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Re: 2017 open thread
« Reply #169 on: March 02, 2017, 04:13:47 PM »
Want to put my marmelade on that baking bread here too.  8)

I totally agree to Josh-I´m also willing to do my best-despite I know somehow it will be useless-I will try to do all I could as a single human being.

I simply need it, to continue my life as a mother. Maybe it is selfish&naive-but what would be the alternative? I told my kids about the mess a little, I told them about our tries to make it better (our energy efficient home, our electric car, our garden with eatable stuff and the plan of a own PV powerplant...)

It is hard to keep the balance, not to get depressed about the entire desaster.

But I have to put my energy together, to build the piece of world I wish to live in.

I just ask myself: How would kids feel if you tell them to live a joyful YOLO-life and they get aware about the true mess one day?! I wouldn´t be blamed as a thoughtless liar. My way is to face the truth and to try my best.  ;D
“We cannot solve our problems with the same thinking we used when we created them.” –“Learn from yesterday, live for today, hope for tomorrow. The important thing is not to stop questioning.” Albert Einstein

Oddmonk

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Re: 2017 open thread
« Reply #170 on: March 02, 2017, 04:35:38 PM »
I respect and admire your optimism, 5to10 and OrganicSu, dnem, CognitiveBias, josh-j, others. I'm glad we can share our collective knowledge and wisdoms, hopes, fears and moral kinship.

Keep writing, keep talking to people, spread the word. Start a blog, take photos, plant trees, share food with your neighbors, save rainwater, plant gardens, feed the birds and butterflies, build a pond, teach children to care for themselves and the planet. Make the place you live a refuge for wild and feral animals, embrace the changing natural order, learn to live humbly, learn to die with love and grace. This is a good life, make it yours.

Expect nearly everything to change, though. When we are born, as we become aware of the world around us, we imagine it to be eternal and unchanging. As we grow we begin to realize that everything seems to change: our bodies change and are marked by exposure to our surroundings. Injuries, both physical and psychological, teach us about emotion and pain. We learn that every person is born and lives and dies, and we see the landscape change through the seasons, we watch our caregivers and realize they too are changeable and mortal.

The older we get the more we encounter the limits of being a human animal in an ever changing world. I have spent my life testing and pushing those limits, crossing borders, turning over leaf and stone in search of meaning, substance, awareness. I have stared at the brightest lights and peered into some of the darkest places. My mind and body carry the record of this life. I am not afraid for myself. I have had a life rich with experiences, and I've already cheated death many times. I am afraid for my daughter and the world she inherits. The rapid changes we are seeing now are disrupting the world in ways no one can predict.

My hope is for a thousand years from now. I hope the trees and grasses spread across the landscape; I hope the birds and amphibians and invertebrates find refuge and thrive and adapt; I hope extinction will slow and speciation will blossom; I hope the raccoons and otters and foxes and wolves and hedgehogs and deer and snakes and big cats and fish and alligators and crocodiles and manatees and dolphins survive; I hope there are some humans left to see it, to find it beautiful and worth singing songs about.


Oddmonk

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Re: 2017 open thread
« Reply #171 on: March 02, 2017, 05:09:47 PM »

I simply need it, to continue my life as a mother. Maybe it is selfish&naive-but what would be the alternative? I told my kids about the mess a little, I told them about our tries to make it better (our energy efficient home, our electric car, our garden with eatable stuff and the plan of a own PV powerplant...)


It is not selfish or naive to raise your children with truth and hope. On the contrary, it is this capacity for selflessness and wisdom that gives us humans a fighting chance. It is an essential ingredient, your marmelade, nicibiene.
« Last Edit: March 02, 2017, 06:21:18 PM by Oddmonk »

dnem

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Re: 2017 open thread
« Reply #172 on: March 02, 2017, 06:01:27 PM »
One problem is that there's a powerful shift already underway, and its towards nativism and nationalism. It could be argued that this is a misguided response to politics, but if it takes hold then it'll be as hard to stop as other populist movements.

I totally agree 6roucho.  I think a lot of the current turn toward insularity and xenophobia is in fact a response to a looming sense of resource scarcity and competition.  Naomi Klein has characterized the future as a battle between "disaster capitalism" and communalism.  It appears for now that the battle lines are being drawn and our better angels are losing. 

I find myself coming back to a sort of old-fashioned word for what I think we need: "conviviality". We need a rise in neighbors working with neighbors within a relocalized and vastly constrained economic model.  To do that, we need to learn to get along and appreciate one another.  While I try and surround myself with people that appreciate that view, I find the world around me increasingly hostile to it.

6roucho

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Re: 2017 open thread
« Reply #173 on: March 02, 2017, 06:10:26 PM »
I think a lot of the current turn toward insularity and xenophobia is in fact a response to a looming sense of resource scarcity and competition.  Naomi Klein has characterized the future as a battle between "disaster capitalism" and communalism.  It appears for now that the battle lines are being drawn and our better angels are losing. 

I find myself coming back to a sort of old-fashioned word for what I think we need: "conviviality". We need a rise in neighbors working with neighbors within a relocalized and vastly constrained economic model.  To do that, we need to learn to get along and appreciate one another.  While I try and surround myself with people that appreciate that view, I find the world around me increasingly hostile to it.
A very intelligent comment.

5to10

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Re: 2017 open thread
« Reply #174 on: March 02, 2017, 06:19:12 PM »
I think a lot of the current turn toward insularity and xenophobia is in fact a response to a looming sense of resource scarcity and competition.  Naomi Klein has characterized the future as a battle between "disaster capitalism" and communalism.  It appears for now that the battle lines are being drawn and our better angels are losing. 

I find myself coming back to a sort of old-fashioned word for what I think we need: "conviviality". We need a rise in neighbors working with neighbors within a relocalized and vastly constrained economic model.  To do that, we need to learn to get along and appreciate one another.  While I try and surround myself with people that appreciate that view, I find the world around me increasingly hostile to it.

Is it though? Or are we just being told that it is, lead there, when in reality, the majority of us would still opt for the alternative deep down?

Remember that news-media distracts, divides, and confuses. Would this even be an issue had they not focused on Trump and the other endless streams of social fear? Probably not. They foster this mindset like so many others they foster. And it is super effective. So the reverse may also be super effective, just in the opposite, positive way.

We need to reverse the effect of that machine from almost totally negative and divisive to almost totally positive and uniting. We should realize that while we can't conceive of just how monumental the shift would be, or the results of it, certainly it feels very promising deep down.



I guess I see it like this: The vast majority of people would actually be on the same page if we cut through the rhetoric: Live, let live, do good for your neighbours, don't cause harm.

Almost all of our fears stem from some notion that some intangible threat from a generalized group will take those things away from us. These fears are so crippling and go so far in our minds that we FORGET these original principles, we lose awareness of them, and actually contradict them with our actions. Be that hateful speech, thought or physical attack. All stem from confused fear.

I guess I believe that the majority of people can and would change, with proper awareness. If they aren't there yet, the information has not been presented in the right way yet. In fact despite the wide variety of fears and irrational hatred, much of them could be wiped away in most people, if they were all to understand the same simple truths. That is, while we may think "There are many forms of fear and hate, we would have to tackle each in a different manner to solve each" but perhaps there is a single solution to most, so most irrational hate must crumble to this truth should one really grasp the truth.

The truth in fact wins EVERY battle of rationality, if it is allowed to enter the arena, because it is the truth. Not many are really letting it into their consciousness yet, it's there in fragments but it's not understood.


As someone else said, these shifts are non-linear. It just takes the right push in the right direction is really what this comes down to. Keep pushing everything that makes sense and is right, and it may happen.


I have to say, after reading some responses here and elsewhere, I am very optimistic, where I had given up all hope days before. I actually see that this shift we are describing is slowly happening - we are a part of it right here. It is happening, and we ARE in for unbelievable things together. There is much to see. Real impactful change and a future full of love and compassion beyond that could happen, together. We are so close to trying. That's why "they" are discrediting the news and information now, in advance - They know that this is humanity's chance. They have chosen inaction, destruction, unless they have proven to be truthful and productive in what THEY choose to talk about as politicians. It is high time we discard their opinions unless they are wiling to be honest.

There is, and has been for many decades, an active campaign within those entities that comprise government and those who mingle with it intimately, to stifle our awareness by way of newsmedia. They are trying to see this destruction through to certainty. Maybe they even have the fucking answers on how to fix this already, expecting to wipe most of us out and then "Flip the switch" back to a habitable state for themselves. I cannot say of the latter for certain, but it IS certain that they seek to destroy and thus must be destroyed, through non-compliance, through NON-AWARENESS. We must pay these kinds of people no mind, and surely they would have no power like this in the new united world we are visualizing.
« Last Edit: March 02, 2017, 06:37:07 PM by 5to10 »

5to10

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Re: 2017 open thread
« Reply #175 on: March 02, 2017, 06:40:23 PM »
Look here at a vision of the future: Out of fundamental awareness, even more optimism and cooperation. Let us see ourselves for what we are, a microcosm of the whole, and recognize that if it is possible here without too much effort, only recognizing the fundamental truth through the neverending sea of confusion.. it is possible everywhere.

We are working towards this right here with these discussions as others are likely doing the same on forums we may not visit. Truth and awareness ripples outward, but it also pops up in different, disconnected places at the same time. History has many examples of this. I believe it must be happening elsewhere right now, what we are doing right here. It will have great effect soon.

6roucho

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Re: 2017 open thread
« Reply #176 on: March 02, 2017, 06:57:04 PM »
I have to say, after reading some responses here and elsewhere, I am very optimistic, where I had given up all hope days before. I actually see that this shift we are describing is slowly happening - we are a part of it right here. It is happening, and we ARE in for unbelievable things together. There is much to see. Real impactful change and a future full of love and compassion beyond that could happen, together. We are so close to trying. That's why "they" are discrediting the news and information now, in advance - They know that this is humanity's chance. They have chosen inaction, destruction, unless they have proven to be truthful and productive in what THEY choose to talk about as politicians. It is high time we discard their opinions unless they are wiling to be honest.
These are fine sentiments, and I hope you're right, but the good people you describe are such a small minority. Even the upwelling of rational, liberal sentiment in the United States now is the work of a small minority. It looks big, because it's loud, but the voting majority don't want to know about it. They'll be convinced by some proof of something that interests them, such as personal financial loss, or a challenge to their national pride.

The best hope for the world may be that Russia really did collude with the Trump campaign, because then a cache of progressive issues might enter the mainstream on the coattails of dissent.

Jim Williams

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Re: 2017 open thread
« Reply #177 on: March 02, 2017, 07:10:34 PM »
These are fine sentiments, and I hope you're right, but the good people you describe are such a small minority. Even the upwelling of rational, liberal sentiment in the United States now is the work of a small minority. It looks big, because it's loud, but the voting majority don't want to know about it. They'll be convinced by some proof of something that interests them, such as personal financial loss, or a challenge to their national pride.

The best hope for the world may be that Russia really did collude with the Trump campaign, because then a cache of progressive issues might enter the mainstream on the coattails of dissent.

And then you have people like me.  I used to be a member of Greenpeace, but back in 2000 when A greenpeace campaigner accosted me my reply was "too late, leave me alone."

5to10

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Re: 2017 open thread
« Reply #178 on: March 02, 2017, 07:20:20 PM »
These are fine sentiments, and I hope you're right, but the good people you describe are such a small minority. Even the upwelling of rational, liberal sentiment in the United States now is the work of a small minority. It looks big, because it's loud, but the voting majority don't want to know about it. They'll be convinced by some proof of something that interests them, such as personal financial loss, or a challenge to their national pride.

The best hope for the world may be that Russia really did collude with the Trump campaign, because then a cache of progressive issues might enter the mainstream on the coattails of dissent.

And then you have people like me.  I used to be a member of Greenpeace, but back in 2000 when A greenpeace campaigner accosted me my reply was "too late, leave me alone."

Sure. That is why people with a perspective like you (pessimism) and anyone similar must be reminded, acutely, by people with a perspective like me (optimism) of what your position means at its very simplest:

If you cannot say for certain it is impossible, then you must say there may be a chance that we aren't seeing to literally save the world and ourselves.

If you do not seek that chance by all means necessary after this realization, you are approving and pushing towards CERTAIN destruction of most or all living things and people, through your inaction, while it is as yet uncertain.

Whether or not you care about that truth is dependent on your morals and values. Despite them, it is true. I hope you change sides here because you are directly affecting mine and everyone elses ability to find that chance by not looking for it harder than ever with us.

Do not seek to ensure destruction through your inaction, in an uncertain situation.

I will continue to drive this fundamental truth home to anyone who has given up. I believe most people are good, moral, and will recognize that there is really only one reasonable choice to make here unless you want us to fail, you revel in this downward spiral, or you believe it's impossible. You cannot know if it's impossible, so which is it?

At the end of the day, it seems to equate to "Well I admit it's possible, but I'm lazy, and i enjoy my life the way it is,.... and i don't actually care that much to change it because it will disrupt what i'm used to."
« Last Edit: March 02, 2017, 07:28:26 PM by 5to10 »

nicibiene

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Re: 2017 open thread
« Reply #179 on: March 02, 2017, 07:30:53 PM »
I think a lot of the current turn toward insularity and xenophobia is in fact a response to a looming sense of resource scarcity and competition.  Naomi Klein has characterized the future as a battle between "disaster capitalism" and communalism.  It appears for now that the battle lines are being drawn and our better angels are losing. 

I find myself coming back to a sort of old-fashioned word for what I think we need: "conviviality". We need a rise in neighbors working with neighbors within a relocalized and vastly constrained economic model.  To do that, we need to learn to get along and appreciate one another.  While I try and surround myself with people that appreciate that view, I find the world around me increasingly hostile to it.
A very intelligent comment.

So TRUE! Sometimes I hope that "oldfashioned" kind of conviviality would revive here. We had it here in Eastern Germany. People were inventive, there was an exchange of neighbors help. Things I still remember - there was exactly that kind of happy cooperation before the new brutal capitalistic way started.

Not to say that GDR had been perfect - but there WAS what we would need soon. I know, it is possible.  :) (And somehow it´s the reason for my love to challenges) And as I recently read about Naomi Kleins "Shock strategy", I would say-that is exactly the kind of (gentle form of) desaster happened here.

Now we live here in a state of splitted, jealous communities, with strange xenophobia (Saxony, you know Pegida?)- out of any cooperation, full of hate, we have lost a lot of young people during that process-they all went to western Germany, where wages are so much higher.

Thanks you all for your thoughts. Really hopeful thoughts!  8)
« Last Edit: March 02, 2017, 07:42:37 PM by nicibiene »
“We cannot solve our problems with the same thinking we used when we created them.” –“Learn from yesterday, live for today, hope for tomorrow. The important thing is not to stop questioning.” Albert Einstein

Oddmonk

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Re: 2017 open thread
« Reply #180 on: March 02, 2017, 08:22:35 PM »
My point is the time we have left.  Wasting it or using it.

Now is the time to live as it is the only time you will have.  Think quality instead of quantity.  Leave that job you hate.  Stop planning for a future that will never be.

Make peace with yourself. Love your family.



   

Yes, live and love today. Tomorrow will bring what it may.

magnamentis

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Re: 2017 open thread
« Reply #181 on: March 02, 2017, 10:02:53 PM »
I miss A-Team. I reeaaaallly miss A-Team.

then you have never been the victim of one of those rude outbrakes, lucky you ;)
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Cid_Yama

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Re: 2017 open thread
« Reply #182 on: March 02, 2017, 10:22:34 PM »
5to10, what I see is you attacking those that don't agree with you and your unrealistic desire for a worldwide kumbaya moment based on your wishful thinking.

It's not going to happen.

Your vision is not based on reality. 

You can smell your desperation, but you have gone too far when you attack others for not ascribing to your fantasy.  Get a grip.

Surely you can see that any plan that requires everyone to agree with you AND participate is beyond unrealistic.

It's insane if you think it could in any way be possible.

   
« Last Edit: March 02, 2017, 10:33:52 PM by Cid_Yama »

DrTskoul

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Re: 2017 open thread
« Reply #183 on: March 02, 2017, 10:30:51 PM »
5to10. It is not black and gray and it is not "with us" or against us.  We are bound by nature and physical phenomena.  Mass balances, heat and mass transfer, materials.  Some things are going to be physically impossible and we just have to accept it and spend our resources to what is possible even if it's very hard to do.
“You can know the name of a bird in all the languages of the world, but when you're finished, you'll know absolutely nothing whatever about the bird... So let's look at the bird and see what it's doing -- that's what counts.”
― Richard P. Feynman

Tigertown

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Re: 2017 open thread
« Reply #184 on: March 02, 2017, 10:33:49 PM »
I miss A-Team. I reeaaaallly miss A-Team.

then you have never been the victim of one of those rude outbrakes, lucky you ;)
Off topic. Ban magnamentis from the forum.  ;)       ( I assume something like that is what you mean)

DrTskoul

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Re: 2017 open thread
« Reply #185 on: March 02, 2017, 10:36:17 PM »
You 'be been the victim too ??
“You can know the name of a bird in all the languages of the world, but when you're finished, you'll know absolutely nothing whatever about the bird... So let's look at the bird and see what it's doing -- that's what counts.”
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CognitiveBias

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Re: 2017 open thread
« Reply #186 on: March 02, 2017, 10:48:56 PM »
I saw a couple posts where he was over harsh, but his content is surely missed.  He's also not the only one ever.  I took him as coming from an angle of perceived entitlement based on his contribution level. 


5to10

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Re: 2017 open thread
« Reply #187 on: March 02, 2017, 11:13:05 PM »
5to10. It is not black and gray and it is not "with us" or against us.  We are bound by nature and physical phenomena.  Mass balances, heat and mass transfer, materials.  Some things are going to be physically impossible and we just have to accept it and spend our resources to what is possible even if it's very hard to do.

We are bound by our own minds, individually and collectively.

It is black and white. You have yet to disprove the fundamental truth, no rebuttal has yet. Either you don't understand it, or you seek to avoid recognizing its personal ramifications.

We choose to try everything when we recognize the fundamental truth, or we choose to continue doing less than everything we possibly can, and give up.

"This is highly unlikely" is not a rebuttal to my comments. Highly unlikely means there may be a way we can find.

Prove beyond any uncertainty that fixing what we've done is impossible, prove that if we unite we could not possibly find better solutions or especially have the means to implement them much easier when we're on the same page.

You can't? Then I don't care what you say. You will revel in the pleasures you are used to until the end, and if there was any fleeting chance that you could have helped to find, but consciously chose not to, you are choosing those pleasures and your personal status quo over the living world and humanity itself.

Prove otherwise logically, or accept it.

No more "Yes but, this is highly unlikely.. how could we ever.. it would just be so hard.. Surely we can't..". That is your crutch. That is your mental free ticket to doing the same bullshit we've always done and not something better. I will expose it for what it is.

Prove otherwise or accept what you now must recognize is the fundamental truth.

I am not acting out of ego, I am not being an asshole, I'm sharing the truth anonymously because truth should be shared, no matter how hard it is.
« Last Edit: March 03, 2017, 12:03:17 AM by 5to10 »

CognitiveBias

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Re: 2017 open thread
« Reply #188 on: March 02, 2017, 11:26:48 PM »
5to10,

Your premise of imminent existential threat is not accepted as a fundamental truth.  You build a personal philosophy around it, as is your right.  You project it on others at risk of being called out as a charlatan.


5to10

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Re: 2017 open thread
« Reply #189 on: March 02, 2017, 11:37:59 PM »
5to10,

Your premise of imminent existential threat is not accepted as a fundamental truth.  You build a personal philosophy around it, as is your right.  You project it on others at risk of being called out as a charlatan.

I understand that, I will rephrase, you're right in that I should not claim something to be true that is not certain.

External events seem to vividly support a description of imminent existential threat that is compounding and speeding up with time as a result of our activities. The vast majority of data supports this. Data would support the notion that barring unseen, external solutions that nobody can possibly foresee, we have little time and few options. But data does not PROVE the notion that it is impossible to change the apparent trajectory and conclusion of that course.

I cannot say that it will continue til destruction, no. However, I would argue that one should not and most would not just keep driving a car full speed towards what appears to be a solid brick wall ahead, on the premise that it might be an illusion.

The data is clear.

So, your problem is that the majority do not recognize and understand what the data implies? That we lack the unity we need to cause any real positive changes to happen? Both?

Then newsmedia and scientists need to start working together eventually as directors of global consciousness and creators of solutions respectively, towards what the data implies and what decision we want to make regarding it. Do we want to carry on, or try something new, something unlike we've ever tried before? Something hopeful for all of us?

We must decide. And unity will come out of it, through an extraordinary global effort unlike we can begin to conceive in our state of disarray. The will to survive is strong. The will to live and let live exists, but is hindered by fear and confusion. Unity can exist in this connected world.

I project nothing, I present difficult logical truths that I was forced to consider myself recently. There is a fundamental. There is a black and white. This is a world of duality.

And the truth is the truth.

If we, but also if YOU do not work towards every single rational solution, the data supports the idea that an imminent destruction of more, if not all of the living world will be a CERTAINTY. We cannot say it is impossible to REVERSE that, and proceed united towards a glorious re-imagination TOGETHER.

You can choose that option if you want. You go forth with full awareness of the ramifications of your choice now.

This type of discussion is crucial in our position. This truth will one day be apparent to all, regardless of what I say here anymore or what any of us think about it. We are headed for an incredible battle of, frankly, good vs evil, or however else you choose to word it. Personal accountability vs laziness. Optimism vs pessimism.

The result of human progress will be our painful self-awareness, and out of that awareness will come two choices. Try together or give up divided, in the most dire of situations. We who understand this have a bit of a head start.
« Last Edit: March 03, 2017, 12:21:31 AM by 5to10 »

5to10

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Re: 2017 open thread
« Reply #190 on: March 03, 2017, 12:15:27 AM »
I can explain it any which way you want me to. Until you are able to clearly and rationally refute the truths I am sharing, or reinterpret the personal ramifications of your awareness of these truths should you not be able to refute them. As well as the hopeful impact of an acute, collective awareness of the above. Perhaps the sense of duty this appears to awaken is what we need.

Forget the semantics. Admit that global unity is the only hopeful way forward if there is any chance at all. Admit and accept within your own mind that your unwillingness to do everything possible towards real change is tantamount to ensuring the living world will find no way out of what appears to be near total destruction. Can you?

If not, but you carry on anyways, then your values and morals are not hinged on a respect for the present living world, consciousness and a desire to preserve it or advance it, or your present and future influence on the situation according to the data which seems all but certain.

Perhaps you must become a denier to avoid it.

Perhaps you rationalize it by saying "Well, t might take longer for life to restart here if it IS impossible and our efforts make it worse". I would argue that there is already, despite the downhill spiral, a beautiful, awe-inspiring, conscious and living world here that is worth trying to save, and could be even more beautiful and awe-inspiring in the future, with a united humanity that weathers this storm.

The decision is your own, and judgement on that decision is not mine or anyone elses to make.

While I don't judge, because I understand the decision and why people take it, I can still recognize the destructive nature of that choice, and so in choosing the opposite I must seek to spread awareness such that less people choose it, now and in the future.
« Last Edit: March 03, 2017, 12:42:53 AM by 5to10 »

be cause

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Re: 2017 open thread
« Reply #191 on: March 03, 2017, 01:39:14 AM »
hi.. 5to10 .. little problems .. scientists waiting on peer review and the newsmedia bypass that are twatter and farcebook .. Then there is the antagonizing of the like minded .. result .. a Voice inthe Wilderness (what's left of it ) .
You need to find a different level of consciousness in which , as cause , you can effect change .. remember this is quantum world .. every sub atomic particle is waiting to do your bidding ..
 
 
 
be the cause of only good
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will .. through you .. transform all nations :)

5to10

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Re: 2017 open thread
« Reply #192 on: March 03, 2017, 01:59:12 AM »
hi.. 5to10 .. little problems .. scientists waiting on peer review and the newsmedia bypass that are twatter and farcebook .. Then there is the antagonizing of the like minded .. result .. a Voice inthe Wilderness (what's left of it ) .
You need to find a different level of consciousness in which , as cause , you can effect change .. remember this is quantum world .. every sub atomic particle is waiting to do your bidding ..
 
 
 

It is an interesting observation that certain things I have done to my own body throughout my life are paralleled in the external world. Smoking, for example, I must sacrifice my enjoyment now and quit, it goes against life. The internal creates the external in ourselves and everyone, it appears.

If this is what you are getting at, I have thought about it for sure and thanks for reminding and affirming it.

Beyond this alternative way to look at it, which does deserve credit but is somewhat unknowable.. I still don't see your rebuttal as enough to change my thoughts on the rest. You are describing the difficulties, I recognize them for sure. I still believe it is possible. Radical change means forget everything as it works in the present, to a degree.

Ninebelowzero

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Re: 2017 open thread
« Reply #193 on: March 03, 2017, 02:15:18 AM »
...Forget the semantics. Admit that global unity is the only hopeful way forward if there is any chance at all. Admit and accept within your own mind that your unwillingness to do everything possible towards real change is tantamount to ensuring the living world will find no way out of what appears to be near total destruction. Can you? ...

As regards climate things might be happening a bit fast for many creatures to adapt but that won't be a first time for the Earth (which is a global unity) I'm sure.  As regards survival of humanity or any other individual species there are no guarantees over the next 10 thousand years.

Glenn Tamblyn

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Re: 2017 open thread
« Reply #194 on: March 03, 2017, 10:09:50 AM »
"If 350 ppm CO2 is the manageable level how do you think we are going to get there, very fast?"

Well obviously, we are going to have to suck CO2 out of the atmosphere. And to do it fast? Technologies we don't have yet. Bioenergy Carbon Capture & Storage. No way that can do it at the scale we need. Crushing olivine rock to accelerate weathering and move carbon into the oceans. I'm not convinced they understand the ocean chemistry well enough.

Currently I think we are stuck in a mental rut, trying to imagine answers that fit existing chemical processes in the natural world. Ultimately I think it will take a technology that we haven't even dreamed of yet. New chemistry that doesn't occur in the natural world.

Can we invent some technology to do this? Yep, some smart chemists and engineers can eventually do that. So long as they have a viable, stable society to work in while they are doing it. That is the problem.

Hyperion

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Re: 2017 open thread
« Reply #195 on: March 03, 2017, 12:17:46 PM »
Quite simply by going Pyrolysis to biofuel and biochar and biochem for construction, energy and soil restoration. Energy Canes, and Kelp as number one weapons for core ecology primary producers as they are super producers, but maximising biodiversity will maximise carbon uptake in your ecologies.

The above can achieve 10x carbon negative energy and construction with ongoing carbon sequestration and topsoil growth from the Terra Preta.

Increasing economic activity tenfold with 10x current levels of construction and energy consumption would then draw down 100 years of current CO2e emissions in one year.

Easy huh? all at least 100 year old Tech. So the problem is no patents or monopolies for the big boys. They unfortunately have been conned by accountants to believe they can hoard technology with patents so have been desperately looking for some new gimmick they can slap one on to do the job, which is ridiculous at the pace at which knowledge is advancing anyway. Lets get on with it. All together now. YAYHAAA!!!!  ;) Lets get gardening!!! on the land and in the sea!!!!
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dnem

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Re: 2017 open thread
« Reply #196 on: March 03, 2017, 01:22:10 PM »
5to10, surely you can agree that between the current highly fractious and corporate controlled status quo and the unified world you desire, all working harmoniously together to solve our existential threats, lies a continuum?  It was not-so-intelligent me  ::) who suggested that the trajectory between the now and the goal will likely be non-linear.

But between the two points lies a ton of hard work.  I think most of us here are working toward that goal in the ways that make sense to us personally.  Could we all do more?  I'm sure we could.  I know I could.  But I try to live a simple life and I try and spread the gospel best I can.  Is there something more you want of me? Of the ASIF?

Jim Williams

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Re: 2017 open thread
« Reply #197 on: March 03, 2017, 02:02:04 PM »
If you cannot say for certain it is impossible, then you must say there may be a chance that we aren't seeing to literally save the world and ourselves.

The world will be just fine, and I don't see why we need "saving."  This is simply another abrupt climate change, and even Homo Sapiens has survived several so far.

misanthroptimist

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Re: 2017 open thread
« Reply #198 on: March 03, 2017, 02:31:57 PM »
I agree that Homo sapiens will survive in all likelihood. However, vast numbers of that species will die premature and probably miserable deaths. In addition to disliking such outcomes in a general way, there are several dozen individuals of that species for whom I feel great affection that will probably perish. Therefore, I hope you'll forgive a certain amount of hand-wringing on my part.

Of course, those who feel no connection to their fellow humans will have a different outlook.

gerontocrat

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Re: 2017 open thread
« Reply #199 on: March 03, 2017, 02:32:24 PM »
If you cannot say for certain it is impossible, then you must say there may be a chance that we aren't seeing to literally save the world and ourselves.

The world will be just fine, and I don't see why we need "saving."  This is simply another abrupt climate change, and even Homo Sapiens has survived several so far.

Can't let that go, Jiim, having been involved in cleaning up the aftermath of societal collapse here and there. Being a reluctant father-confessor to both the victims and perpetrators of atrocities teaches one not to regard the very possible future of humanity with equanimity.

"Para a Causa do Povo a Luta Continua!"