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5to10

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Re: 2017 open thread
« Reply #200 on: March 03, 2017, 04:26:24 PM »
If you cannot say for certain it is impossible, then you must say there may be a chance that we aren't seeing to literally save the world and ourselves.

The world will be just fine, and I don't see why we need "saving."  This is simply another abrupt climate change, and even Homo Sapiens has survived several so far.

Can't let that go, Jiim, having been involved in cleaning up the aftermath of societal collapse here and there. Being a reluctant father-confessor to both the victims and perpetrators of atrocities teaches one not to regard the very possible future of humanity with equanimity.

Seriously. Jim: This is now a 7.5 billion person, global, exponentially more complex civilization that was built and hinged on relative consistency in planetary phenomena. You cannot begin to propose that the situation is the same simply based on population and scarcity alone.

It is ludicrous to propose that because changes happened before (And these are nowhere near the same changes either, which is yet another deceptive allusion in Jims comment) that this monumental civilization we have built can just magically survive it when all the variables that differ in your comparison suggest that it will not, given our trajectory.

So Jim, if you aren't willing to admit that all data seems to indicate we are on a death spiral and bringing the rest of the living world into it, I suppose nobody will be able to convince you. The evidence is clear, and probabilities can be fairly assigned here.

Unless you can refute that and then come up with a rational reason as to why you think doing little to nothing gives us a better chance than doing everything you can possibly think of, you must do everything now or accept the built-in ramifications of doing nothing.

I mean you don't have to, but if you don't do everything you can, right now,.... well we've already been over what the personal ramifications of that are. You are aiding and abetting in CERTIFYING we have no chance, when a chance may exist (This is barring unseen/unknowable external forces to which we would have to wait to see anyways, a risky and irrational proposition)

SO TRY EVERYTHING, DAMMIT. Or be a destroyer in your desire to maintain a personal status quo that meets your selfish personal WANTS, not the NEEDS of yourself and everything else, such that the collective status quo will mirror that way of life and those personal values to its self-destructive end.

Try to rationalize your way out of the truth all you want. Doesn't work.

All you have left to cling to is going against everything data reports to be likely, and the likely predictions we can make from that data, also irrational. This is where the vast majority are at right now. Let's fix that so we can fix this.
« Last Edit: March 03, 2017, 04:35:47 PM by 5to10 »

Jim Williams

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Re: 2017 open thread
« Reply #201 on: March 03, 2017, 04:36:53 PM »
If you cannot say for certain it is impossible, then you must say there may be a chance that we aren't seeing to literally save the world and ourselves.

The world will be just fine, and I don't see why we need "saving."  This is simply another abrupt climate change, and even Homo Sapiens has survived several so far.

Can't let that go, Jiim, having been involved in cleaning up the aftermath of societal collapse here and there. Being a reluctant father-confessor to both the victims and perpetrators of atrocities teaches one not to regard the very possible future of humanity with equanimity.

It isn't "the very possible" future.  It is, by far, part of the most likely future.  However, I think the development of Computer Science is progressing even faster than Climate Change, and that Mankind will not even notice when Homo Sapiens goes extinct.  (In fact, even the last of the species might not notice.)

CognitiveBias

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Re: 2017 open thread
« Reply #202 on: March 03, 2017, 04:40:27 PM »
If you cannot say for certain it is impossible, then you must say there may be a chance that we aren't seeing to literally save the world and ourselves.

The world will be just fine, and I don't see why we need "saving."  This is simply another abrupt climate change, and even Homo Sapiens has survived several so far.

Can't let that go, Jiim, having been involved in cleaning up the aftermath of societal collapse here and there. Being a reluctant father-confessor to both the victims and perpetrators of atrocities teaches one not to regard the very possible future of humanity with equanimity.

It isn't "the very possible" future.  It is, by far, part of the most likely future.  However, I think the development of Computer Science is progressing even faster than Climate Change, and that Mankind will not even notice when Homo Sapiens goes extinct.  (In fact, even the last of the species might not notice.)

If this 'reality' is even real to begin with...

https://motherboard.vice.com/en_us/article/elon-musk-simulated-universe-hypothesis

5to10

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Re: 2017 open thread
« Reply #203 on: March 03, 2017, 04:44:05 PM »
Quote
If this 'reality' is even real to begin with...

https://motherboard.vice.com/en_us/article/elon-musk-simulated-universe-hypothesis

Just another way to rationalize your way out of doing something so you can continue being lazy in selfishness.

You are certainly here commenting and doing many other things day to day in a reality which at least appears real, with real consequences. I for one will base my ideas and decisions on the premise that "This is some kind of reality, and I'm part of it" and that my actions have an effect on it.

Saying "Well this might be a sim so it doesn't matter if i do anything" is akin to a religious ideal.

"Well God will heal my sons cancer so I won't treat him or feed him. Oh how strange, he died."

Lets work in the present circumstances with what we can be reasonably sure is "real" based on experience.
« Last Edit: March 03, 2017, 04:52:54 PM by 5to10 »

5to10

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Re: 2017 open thread
« Reply #204 on: March 03, 2017, 04:58:52 PM »
Look, I will never let anybody rationalize OUR responsibility away again unless someone explains a more rational outlook on the grand situation. Nobody has even come close yet.

You must see by now that it's nigh impossible, because what I am saying is almost certainly true.

So either admit you are a destroyer in your unwillingness to try everything to avoid the very highly probable, or provide some kind of evidence that refutes what I'm saying. Else, I see no reason why you reply other than a futile personal effort to avoid the truth and the difficult personal ramifications of recognizing it.

We are selfish, we are ignorant, we did and we are still doing this. You did this, and you are still doing this. I did this, and I am trying my best from now on to stop doing this, and I hope many others will too.

You are totally able to go down doing nothing, I see that it is the probable conclusion. It doesn't mean I will continue to march with the army of destruction upon realizing my role, just because "Who cares? We probably got no outs!"
« Last Edit: March 03, 2017, 05:04:09 PM by 5to10 »

CognitiveBias

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Re: 2017 open thread
« Reply #205 on: March 03, 2017, 05:03:19 PM »
Quote
If this 'reality' is even real to begin with...

https://motherboard.vice.com/en_us/article/elon-musk-simulated-universe-hypothesis

Just another way to rationalize your way out of doing something so you can continue being lazy in selfishness.

...

Just my way of saying that you have beat your point to death. 

5to10

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Re: 2017 open thread
« Reply #206 on: March 03, 2017, 05:10:08 PM »
Quote
If this 'reality' is even real to begin with...

https://motherboard.vice.com/en_us/article/elon-musk-simulated-universe-hypothesis

Just another way to rationalize your way out of doing something so you can continue being lazy in selfishness.

...

Just my way of saying that you have beat your point to death.

Well it's gotta be done when it's being responded to with something other than the truth. It's not like we're arguing over the best song of the 90's, this is the bloody end of the world we're discussing. "beating your point to death" doesn't really apply in the same way as most internet debates, time is of the essence here. I can see that mass awareness and real understanding is one of the key parts of any chance we may have. I am morally obligated to make sure the truth is known and heard, not buried by deceptive "rebuttals".

People here still trying to avoid their roles. Only way we make any progress is if more people accept their roles. More than willing to engage in discussion, and people keep trying to refute (albeit poorly), so I don't have much of a choice but to re-word what I'm saying in response, or sit here forever asking for a real rebuttal with real talking points to consider that don't just melt away with minimal effort. Nobody is presenting that in opposition of what I'm saying.

As time progresses with no real rebuttal to speak of, it becomes more difficult to avoid within your own mind: This responsibility is yours too. Do everything you can now, or live with the guilt, or reorganize your belief system so that you can accept that you are partially responsible, but it doesn't make you feel bad or try to stop it.

Surely this inspires a response like mine in many: Unfaltering truth even in the face of annoyed opposition.

That is the very start of the solution to our dilemma, if there is one at all. Time to stop lying to ourselves and each other. Hence, I respond.
« Last Edit: March 03, 2017, 05:22:35 PM by 5to10 »

TerryM

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Re: 2017 open thread
« Reply #207 on: March 03, 2017, 05:21:26 PM »
5to10


As I understand your argument you're saying that if we all come together as a unity, something magical may happen, and this may save us all.


You then attack everyone with a different perspective, thereby proving not only that unity doesn't exist at present, but that anyone dividing the world into those that believe (in unity), and those that don't believe, will forever preclude a unity of thought, and that your magical moment will never occur.


Terry

CognitiveBias

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Re: 2017 open thread
« Reply #208 on: March 03, 2017, 05:27:00 PM »
5to10


As I understand your argument you're saying that if we all come together as a unity, something magical may happen, and this may save us all.


You then attack everyone with a different perspective, thereby proving not only that unity doesn't exist at present, but that anyone dividing the world into those that believe (in unity), and those that don't believe, will forever preclude a unity of thought, and that your magical moment will never occur.


Terry

I'll take that as a very eloquent seconding of my point.   8)

Jim Williams

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Re: 2017 open thread
« Reply #209 on: March 03, 2017, 05:30:14 PM »
5to10


As I understand your argument you're saying that if we all come together as a unity, something magical may happen, and this may save us all.


You then attack everyone with a different perspective, thereby proving not only that unity doesn't exist at present, but that anyone dividing the world into those that believe (in unity), and those that don't believe, will forever preclude a unity of thought, and that your magical moment will never occur.


Terry

First completely meaningful statement I have read on this thread -- thank you.


5to10

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Re: 2017 open thread
« Reply #210 on: March 03, 2017, 05:30:44 PM »
5to10


As I understand your argument you're saying that if we all come together as a unity, something magical may happen, and this may save us all.


You then attack everyone with a different perspective, thereby proving not only that unity doesn't exist at present, but that anyone dividing the world into those that believe (in unity), and those that don't believe, will forever preclude a unity of thought, and that your magical moment will never occur.


Terry

This is not an eloquent point, he is merely reflecting the problem from which I have proposed a solution. The truth is the truth. There is no alternative to an irrefutable statement, so refute it or accept it. NOBODY has come close to refuting it, evident by the ease in which your statements collapse under minor scrutiny.

I would say that Terry is incorrect based on an assumption I am more than willing to make based on personal experience: The vast majority of people are moral, good, and just want to live and let live. Most, if not all hatred and fear stems from ignorance. We have overwhelming ignorance, thus we have overwhelming hatred and division. Most will want to change when they understand, much like people want to change any negative habit when they recognize its destructive influence. This is the main problem we face in starting to make impactful changes together.

Should we have overwhelming understanding of the FUNDAMENTAL truths of our predicament, that hatred and division has little to rest its laurels on anymore.

You are still just presenting symptoms of the disease as evidence that we can't cure it, not a rebuttal to what I'm proposing we do. You literally just said "We can't be united because we're divided" in different words, again avoiding the point:

Seek to create that unity, surely it is possible with understanding (We have foregone many instinctual urges riding the waves of awareness and understanding through time, thus we can surely do the same here. Those in opposition to widely understood truth fall to the wayside as history has proven), or be a destroyer.

Maybe there cannot be "total unity", however "more than unified enough to do something" seems entirely possible to me, and ANY amount of unity more than what we have at present is positive in respect to solving these problems.
« Last Edit: March 03, 2017, 05:36:41 PM by 5to10 »

Jim Williams

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Re: 2017 open thread
« Reply #211 on: March 03, 2017, 05:35:34 PM »
You must see by now that it's nigh impossible, because what I am saying is almost certainly true.

I am a Primitive Buddhist.  I believe:  No essence.  No permanence.  No perfection.

Simply by asserting that something is True you have completely lost any possible support from me and people who think like me.  I do not believe in Truth.

5to10

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Re: 2017 open thread
« Reply #212 on: March 03, 2017, 05:37:07 PM »
You must see by now that it's nigh impossible, because what I am saying is almost certainly true.

I am a Primitive Buddhist.  I believe:  No essence.  No permanence.  No perfection.

Simply by asserting that something is True you have completely lost any possible support from me and people who think like me.  I do not believe in Truth.

So you believe it's true that there is no truth? That's ironic.

Openly contradicting yourself in such a small comment is not a good way to support your argument.
« Last Edit: March 03, 2017, 05:44:35 PM by 5to10 »

CognitiveBias

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Re: 2017 open thread
« Reply #213 on: March 03, 2017, 05:40:03 PM »
5to10


As I understand your argument you're saying that if we all come together as a unity, something magical may happen, and this may save us all.


You then attack everyone with a different perspective, thereby proving not only that unity doesn't exist at present, but that anyone dividing the world into those that believe (in unity), and those that don't believe, will forever preclude a unity of thought, and that your magical moment will never occur.


Terry

First completely meaningful statement I have read on this thread -- thank you.

Thanks Jim... I find your commentary to be always of the highest quality as well.

5to10

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Re: 2017 open thread
« Reply #214 on: March 03, 2017, 05:42:58 PM »
Thanks Jim... I find your commentary to be always of the highest quality as well.

Unfortunate that his statement was again easily refuted by the truth.

Still waiting on one of you 3-5 people to present some kind of rational statement in contradiction to what I'm explaining.

You'd think there would be strength in numbers here as usual, but the truth doesn't lose to the deception of the majority.

Refute it or accept it.

CognitiveBias

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Re: 2017 open thread
« Reply #215 on: March 03, 2017, 05:44:53 PM »
Thanks Jim... I find your commentary to be always of the highest quality as well.

Unfortunate that his statement was again easily refuted by the truth.

Still waiting on one of you 3-5 people to present some kind of rational statement in contradiction to what I'm explaining.

You'd think there would be strength in numbers here as usual, but the truth doesn't lose to the deception of the majority.

Refute it or accept it.

Yours are the ramblings of a madman.  They cannot be refuted, as they are not framed in a common belief system.  We would have to begin with the meaning of truth... who has the time. 

5to10

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Re: 2017 open thread
« Reply #216 on: March 03, 2017, 05:45:41 PM »
Thanks Jim... I find your commentary to be always of the highest quality as well.

Unfortunate that his statement was again easily refuted by the truth.

Still waiting on one of you 3-5 people to present some kind of rational statement in contradiction to what I'm explaining.

You'd think there would be strength in numbers here as usual, but the truth doesn't lose to the deception of the majority.

Refute it or accept it.

Yours are the ramblings of a madman.  They cannot be refuted, as they are not framed in a common belief system.  We would have to begin with the meaning of truth... who has the time.

A madman in the context of a terribly mad world, whose ideals have proven destructive failures perhaps. The truth cannot be refuted, hence why you are all, as a team (against the truth itself, not me as a human being relating it), having a real problem trying to do so in total vain.

Maybe I am the sane one.

Jim Williams

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Re: 2017 open thread
« Reply #217 on: March 03, 2017, 05:49:36 PM »
You must see by now that it's nigh impossible, because what I am saying is almost certainly true.

I am a Primitive Buddhist.  I believe:  No essence.  No permanence.  No perfection.

Simply by asserting that something is True you have completely lost any possible support from me and people who think like me.  I do not believe in Truth.

So you believe it's true that there is no truth? That's ironic.

Openly contradicting yourself in such a small comment is not a good way to support your argument.
I hope you get banned.

5to10

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Re: 2017 open thread
« Reply #218 on: March 03, 2017, 05:55:06 PM »
You must see by now that it's nigh impossible, because what I am saying is almost certainly true.

I am a Primitive Buddhist.  I believe:  No essence.  No permanence.  No perfection.

Simply by asserting that something is True you have completely lost any possible support from me and people who think like me.  I do not believe in Truth.

So you believe it's true that there is no truth? That's ironic.

Openly contradicting yourself in such a small comment is not a good way to support your argument.
I hope you get banned.
Ahh, a direct personal attack.

Out of irrational rebuttals that are easily shut down then?

Accept the truth yet, and your logically established role as a destroyer of a beautiful future we could work towards (Not an ad-hominem but also a truth, not putting all effort towards unity as an individual and so as a collective seems to lead to certain destruction based on all data. Unity seems to lead to a better future, based on simple logic), or will you just end your tirade of false dispute with this blatant attack?
« Last Edit: March 03, 2017, 06:09:10 PM by 5to10 »

Gray-Wolf

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Re: 2017 open thread
« Reply #219 on: March 03, 2017, 05:55:20 PM »
Well that all went horrible fast didn't it?

I'm sure we all would wish to help heal our world and see Society evolve into a saner collective but we're not quite ready yet IMHO?

I know thing are looking ever bleaker out there but we must remain hopeful? Even if just to stave off reactive depression!!!

I am left thinking that we are fast approaching escape velocity as Social media unifies more and more of us and allows the type of self education that we see in here each day?

I'm sure we all take a bit of this place away with us each time we log off. I'm sure our 'learning' is then further distributed.

Where in the history of mankind has this been able to be before?

We might need to suffer a big climate shock before we are all ( to all intents and purposes) on the same page with the same demands of our world but we will do so.
KOYAANISQATSI

ko.yaa.nis.katsi (from the Hopi language), n. 1. crazy life. 2. life in turmoil. 3. life disintegrating. 4. life out of balance. 5. a state of life that calls for another way of living.
 
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5to10

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Re: 2017 open thread
« Reply #220 on: March 03, 2017, 06:04:11 PM »
Where in the history of mankind has this been able to be before?

You nailed it.

Because of the internet, We are able to do what I am suggesting, unify. The potential is there. We are connected.

We have never had an opportunity to unify to this degree before the internet. Now we CAN try, and succeed. We just haven't made a decent effort yet.

5to10

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Re: 2017 open thread
« Reply #221 on: March 03, 2017, 06:16:52 PM »
GrayWolf - What you are seeing in the dissent is an individual struggle with an effectively inescapable truth they had as yet not seen. If it is not, I have yet to see logical opposition. Show me some, or accept it once you recognize it.

They are doing everything they can to refute what I'm saying within their own minds, clinging to any fading thread they can see. The truth is brutal sometimes.

I should hope the struggle it creates within them will help to understand how powerful of a motivator this fundamental truth could be towards unity if it was widespread, if we cut away the sea of information that keeps it hidden.

It is so powerful that it is not only easily maintained as irrefutable through debate, but once one accepts it they are immediately forced within themselves to make a clear decision based on its ramifications.

Thus, it really does come down to one thing: Are we really mostly good? Would we mostly choose to TRY to save the world? Are we just hateful and divisive out of fear and ignorance and confusion?

These are the things our future depends on.

Tigertown

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Re: 2017 open thread
« Reply #222 on: March 03, 2017, 06:19:38 PM »
The United Nations has failed, but not by lack of effort. How can you organize something greater than it on here and expect to outdo it. First of all, if you don't work your goals through the U.N., it will not allow you to do so outside of it. Billions of dollars have been poured into it and no lack of effort. It would take a lifetime to build up any organization to come even close to it in scope and magnitude. Furthermore, it can't ever accomplish what it has been made out to be and do.

Gray-Wolf

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Re: 2017 open thread
« Reply #223 on: March 03, 2017, 06:21:28 PM »
5to10

I think it is just the medium that is failing us but you had started to become the very thing that I believe you would wish to be avoid becoming?

I think we must trust others to do what they believe is correct for them to do and exploit the 'overlaps in intent' that occur.

Brow beating and shaming are not good motivators.

We need be brave and allow others time that we might feel we do not have? No point throwing baby out with the water though! :)
KOYAANISQATSI

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5to10

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Re: 2017 open thread
« Reply #224 on: March 03, 2017, 06:38:01 PM »
The United Nations has failed, but not by lack of effort. How can you organize something greater than it on here and expect to outdo it. First of all, if you don't work your goals through the U.N., it will not allow you to do so outside of it. Billions of dollars have been poured into it and no lack of effort. It would take a lifetime to build up any organization to come even close to it in scope and magnitude. Furthermore, it can't ever accomplish what it has been made out to be and do.

The UN does not direct us towards an exactly clear purpose and is not backed by a mostly united humanity. Sticking to fundamentals and a clear purpose rather than trying to sort out a path based on a nigh infinite set of information points is somewhat important. Together, scientists and the media and all other useful entities can achieve this clear optimistic purpose and assist in communicating the logistics in our united efforts. The only reason that doesn't happen already is because the human beings who compose those entities lack the fundamental awareness I am trying to spread or think it is impossible too.

If you can at least understand where I've been going with this.. That it is in fact possible to thrust a clear moral choice on somebody that they weren't aware they had before, and it doesn't take much effort (Even if they try to refute it for a while... cognitive dissonance is a thing). This moral choice will only exist based on their personal value systems, but those have to stand up to the fundamental truth within their own minds as well.

Certainly, there are other possible irrefutable truths that one can go with, I don't deny that. For example "I don't need to do anything because aliens will save us eventually", well I can't refute that, but it leaves me helpless to do anything. The irrefutable truth I am presenting allows us to do something: Just spread it, it has a great effect just doing that. Thrust this awareness on people. Keep it fundamental. It MIGHT be able to turn the tide for us. Unless you can think of a more viable option to START turning things around than unifying as many people and resources as we can ASAP, then just do it already!

The problem we have is that few humans have been faced with the difficult concept I am trying to explain. They lack the awareness of our individual impacts.

Truth is a powerful weapon against the instinctual, fear-driven, and selfish urges we have as individuals literally as easy as making someone aware of it.

In a way, it has a feedback effect built in. Once you realize that spreading this truth and awareness of our personal responsibility appears to be our only chance to avoid total destruction, that unifying is the only way, you kind of have to spread the truth or accept that you are part of the destruction if you don't. Thus I can already see its potential to absolutely transform our global consciousness as it slowly pervades.

What I mean is, most people must be on this page before existent entities can make any impactful change either. You can comment on the present state all you like, I keep saying those things will change as we change. I have noted what you're saying, I'm proposing the solution. You're making an effort to avoid the choice you have, within your own mind.

Again, truth makes anyone who doesn't accept it fall to the wayside in the end. Nobody believes the sun revolves around the Earth anymore. Those who fail to accept this truth that unity is the way forward will disappear in the end too.

It is so easy to have optimism when you start thinking about what I'm trying to explain.

All I can say is that truth has a powerful "feedback" mechanism built in that kind of makes it spread itself as it goes until it overwhelms the bullshit.
« Last Edit: March 03, 2017, 06:52:56 PM by 5to10 »

Tigertown

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Re: 2017 open thread
« Reply #225 on: March 03, 2017, 06:52:28 PM »
Quote
The UN does not direct us towards an exactly clear purpose.

The main goals of the U.N. are to achieve peace and security. Averting climate disaster would fall under the security part. It is hard to focus on the security part, without assuming first that you don't have war, having achieved peace. I wouldn't assume that by the way.

Oddmonk

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Re: 2017 open thread
« Reply #226 on: March 03, 2017, 06:54:47 PM »
5to10, you're trolling the thread, man.

You have no idea how much any of the people here work to educate people about, and to mitigate, climate change. For 35 years I've been active in conservation, ecology, and natural history. Your arrogant, messianic rantings are alienating, not unifying.

Get a grip. We are all in this together, and we all know it here.
« Last Edit: March 03, 2017, 07:13:06 PM by Oddmonk »

Peter Ellis

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Re: 2017 open thread
« Reply #227 on: March 03, 2017, 06:57:55 PM »
I'm not sure an "open thread" like this really belongs in the Cryosphere subforum - worth moving it to "The Rest" subforum with the rest of the general threads?

5to10

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Re: 2017 open thread
« Reply #228 on: March 03, 2017, 07:01:26 PM »
Quote
The UN does not direct us towards an exactly clear purpose.

The main goals of the U.N. are to achieve peace and security. Averting climate disaster would fall under the security part. It is hard to focus on the security part, without assuming first that you don't have war, having achieved peace. I wouldn't assume that by the way.

The UN does not have the influence that news-media does.

Journalists are still the key. Human beings who can do something if they were to be aware of the choice. You are not exactly making a choice until you're aware you have one.

Make them aware they have a choice so that they can work together to make us aware we have a choice.

How? Just by doing what you can to spread all of these concepts. Regardless of your thoughts on how possible any of this is, it's still rational. And it still boils down to clear recognition that you are choosing either try everything we can together and find any chance there is, or submit to your selfish wants and needs and seek to ensure destruction of the living world.

I have great faith that there is a distinct, massively positive difference between a humanity that mostly recognizes that they have a decision, and our present state of affairs where very few people are aware of the decision as it exists fundamentally.


I'm disappointed that people say I'm trolling the thread, when I have proposed a simple solution to which we can all perhaps make a difference: Spread the fundamental choice. To which I might add, nobody has been able to refute. All people can say is "A united humanity isn't possible because humanity isn't united right now", that's a ludicrous argument. If they throw that out, they seek a way to avoid boiling all the information down to this fundamental choice and spreading awareness of THAT first, rather than sharing all the details of the situation (Which clearly hasn't ever worked, try something new) or any of the rest of the incoherent mess that exists in the media today.

Seems cognitive dissonance will continue to get the best of most.
« Last Edit: March 03, 2017, 07:08:32 PM by 5to10 »

SteveMDFP

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Re: 2017 open thread
« Reply #229 on: March 03, 2017, 07:06:37 PM »
GrayWolf - What you are seeing in the dissent is an individual struggle with an effectively inescapable truth they had as yet not seen. If it is not, I have yet to see logical opposition. Show me some, or accept it once you recognize it.

No, the problem isn't that anyone is unwilling to consider your vision and plan.  Some see the human problem differently, but these are smart, open-minded folks here.

The problem is that the vigorous proponent of unity has been repetitive, long-winded, dogmatic, and dismissive of others.

If such proponents of unity can only sow discord, then this may portend a bad outcome for humanity.

rboyd

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Re: 2017 open thread
« Reply #230 on: March 03, 2017, 07:08:54 PM »
Every new communications technology has been touted as facilitating a new democratic moment, from radio to the internet. In each case, the hopeful beginnings have been squashed by the corporations and powerful that wished to control it for their own interests. For example, the great hopes for local and citizen-controlled radio were crushed in the 1920s/1930s when the spectrum was given away to the commercial broadcasters and the requirements of the advertisers.

A great book on this is "The Master Switch: The Rise and Fall of Information Empires" by Tim Wu. Another is "Digital Disconnect: How Capitalism Is Turning The Internet Against Democracy" by Robert McChesney. As long as advertising pays for the media, it will be the advertisers that control the message. An oldy, but still a great one is "Manufacturing Consent" by Herman and Chomsky.

One of my biggest worries is that people become more connected with others that are hundreds or thousands of miles away rather than with their physical neighbours - greatly reducing the growth of local activist groups. The other is that the proliferation of fake news and paid-for trolls makes it impossible for the average person to know what is really true (from this perspective many thanks to Neven and Robert Scribbler for filtering out such noise).

5to10

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Re: 2017 open thread
« Reply #231 on: March 03, 2017, 07:10:41 PM »
GrayWolf - What you are seeing in the dissent is an individual struggle with an effectively inescapable truth they had as yet not seen. If it is not, I have yet to see logical opposition. Show me some, or accept it once you recognize it.

No, the problem isn't that anyone is unwilling to consider your vision and plan.  Some see the human problem differently, but these are smart, open-minded folks here.

The problem is that the vigorous proponent of unity has been repetitive, long-winded, dogmatic, and dismissive of others.

If such proponents of unity can only sow discord, then this may portend a bad outcome for humanity.

I will certainly dismiss irrational arguments, don't you? Where are the rational arguments? And since I believe my perspective, I must of course be vigorous in defending and promoting it. So until you provide a reasonable alternative, here I will be.

Part of me would much rather be playing guitar, or video games, or skimming pointless diatribe on the internet right now, but I ain't. I have devoted myself to what I believe here and elsewhere and I am disappointed people say I'm trolling when I'm clearly not. I'm walking my talk, because I truly have not seen a rational alternative, certainly not here. I put the same weight on myself when I recognized there might be a way out, now I am aiming for it because I feel like it is right. Perhaps I should just digress here.

One more thing.. discord is often a precursor to higher understanding. I would have to say history proves this as well.
« Last Edit: March 03, 2017, 07:16:00 PM by 5to10 »

Red

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Re: 2017 open thread
« Reply #232 on: March 03, 2017, 07:15:04 PM »
5to10

"All I can say is that truth has a powerful "feedback" mechanism built in that kind of makes it spread itself as it goes until it overwhelms the bullshit."

The truth is abstract. I think? While I agree with your line of reasoning I think, coming to a unified truth is like looking for the singularity. It most likely exists, but if found, most will not likely be able to wrap their heads around it.
 For any situation there are as many truths as there are observers. Each holding that their version of the truth is the correct one. Getting an agreement between observers increases in difficulty with the increase in their number. Having a consensus  between 76 people on how anything should function is an amazing feat. Getting 7.6 billion to agree well now that's optimism. So long as there is power and profit to be made from corrupting any such truth it will be nye impossible to pull it off.

The temptation to deceive is as old as the human race,
and so is the inclination to succumb to deception,
which is credulity.
Joseph Jastrow

Tigertown

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Re: 2017 open thread
« Reply #233 on: March 03, 2017, 07:16:46 PM »
Quote
The UN does not have the influence that news-media does.

All the media talks about anymore are political leaders and the only solutions the media points to are political solutions. If they did make everyone aware of the what is happening with the climate, and the people united and protested in the streets for their leaders to find a solution, it would only go full circle to the one institution the world leaders have in common and at their disposal, the U.N..

5to10

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Re: 2017 open thread
« Reply #234 on: March 03, 2017, 07:19:50 PM »
5to10

"All I can say is that truth has a powerful "feedback" mechanism built in that kind of makes it spread itself as it goes until it overwhelms the bullshit."

The truth is abstract. I think? While I agree with your line of reasoning I think, coming to a unified truth is like looking for the singularity. It most likely exists, but if found, most will not likely be able to wrap their heads around it.
 For any situation there are as many truths as there are observers. Each holding that their version of the truth is the correct one. Getting an agreement between observers increases in difficulty with the increase in their number. Having a consensus  between 76 people on how anything should function is an amazing feat. Getting 7.6 billion to agree well now that's optimism. So long as there is power and profit to be made from corrupting any such truth it will be nye impossible to pull it off.

The temptation to deceive is as old as the human race,
and so is the inclination to succumb to deception,
which is credulity.
Joseph Jastrow

I really do understand all this, and I absolutely love the concept of the singularity here. That is exactly what I'm working for, a perfect description, some manner of singularity of consciousness.

Perhaps this does exist. Perhaps the key is a fundamental truth which no mind is able to avoid should it be presented.

Perhaps though, the time it takes to stop avoiding it will be too long in most, I do understand that notion as well.

I would apologize to all for "being vigorous" here if it was not out of the purest intentions. I will digress though, as my point has been well made.

I am by no means implying any of you are "bad people who aren't doing anything" - on the contrary, I think you are some of the greatest quality we have, that is why I'm here. Many influential eyes and minds are on the arctic right now.
« Last Edit: March 03, 2017, 07:32:20 PM by 5to10 »

TerryM

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Re: 2017 open thread
« Reply #235 on: March 03, 2017, 07:20:28 PM »
I'm not sure an "open thread" like this really belongs in the Cryosphere subforum - worth moving it to "The Rest" subforum with the rest of the general threads?


Ramen !!
Very little here relates to ice.


Cid  Yama
Any chance you attend RGs & Ags?


Terry

5to10

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Re: 2017 open thread
« Reply #236 on: March 03, 2017, 07:21:35 PM »
Quote
The UN does not have the influence that news-media does.

All the media talks about anymore are political leaders and the only solutions the media points to are political solutions. If they did make everyone aware of the what is happening with the climate, and the people united and protested in the streets for their leaders to find a solution, it would only go full circle to the one institution the world leaders have in common and at their disposal, the U.N..

Ahh, now we're getting somewhere, when your argument proves my point. Humanity would be united behind a clear purpose and willing to try. Now we could start at the important work. Now the U.N. could actually do something. Now scientists would be listened to. So many great things could start from here.
« Last Edit: March 03, 2017, 07:27:10 PM by 5to10 »

CognitiveBias

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Re: 2017 open thread
« Reply #237 on: March 03, 2017, 07:29:10 PM »
This thread was about ice before it was hijacked.

I'm not sure an "open thread" like this really belongs in the Cryosphere subforum - worth moving it to "The Rest" subforum with the rest of the general threads?


Ramen !!
Very little here relates to ice.


Cid  Yama
Any chance you attend RGs & Ags?


Terry

Tigertown

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Re: 2017 open thread
« Reply #238 on: March 03, 2017, 07:29:33 PM »
Quote
I'm not sure an "open thread" like this really belongs in the Cryosphere subforum - worth moving it to "The Rest" subforum with the rest of the general threads?

It didn't really start out that way. I think johnm33 meant for it to be directly about the Arctic, but irrelevant of season or such, so as to not go off topic easily.

Opening comment.
If it's about the Arctic and 2017 with no obvious home here's where it belongs.
This paper outlines the area l've been thinking about http://www.nature.com/articles/ncomms2505 illustrated here.
http://www.nature.com/articles/ncomms2505/figures/1
 Whenever i thought tides and turbulence were running high in Baffin/Labrador there'd be streamers emerging from the ocean, there must be a more technical name for them but illustrated here. http://go.nasa.gov/2lpzqDm just by Hudson strait last full moon. So now when i see streamers i suspect vortices, this implies that angular momentum is carried through phase transition, is that possible? c+d in fig 4 from the paper illustrate the current across the north barents sea slope, it's my contention that this is a tidally driven current that is increasing as the resistance of the ice in the Arctic weakens. The weakening has two immediate causes the first is the reduction in the amount of kinetic energy needed to forge a path through the ice, that is when there was thick ice the underside caused huge amounts of turbulence dissipating any coherent stream, like a baffle, the second is that the ice has less mass and moves more readily. This second means that given the right/wrong wind conditions the current will be accelerated or slowed by mass ice movement.   The only analogy that springs to mind is where every turn of a roundabout you add a little to the momentum,and when the current reaches some threshold the fractions within it become organised and an overturning c/w current evolves, so as the tidal forcing continues and the resistance fails the current increases and we may have some way to go before both its flow and vorticity peaks.
In the first image below, despite being long after the full moon some streamers are showing, and possibly some ice is being accelerated away from the front. The second shows some streamers a little closer to Svalbard.
Food for thought.

Tigertown

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Re: 2017 open thread
« Reply #239 on: March 03, 2017, 07:44:23 PM »
Quote
The UN does not have the influence that news-media does.

All the media talks about anymore are political leaders and the only solutions the media points to are political solutions. If they did make everyone aware of the what is happening with the climate, and the people united and protested in the streets for their leaders to find a solution, it would only go full circle to the one institution the world leaders have in common and at their disposal, the U.N..

Ahh, now we're getting somewhere, when your argument proves my point. Humanity would be united behind a clear purpose and willing to try. Now we could start at the important work. Now the U.N. could actually do something. Now scientists would be listened to. So many great things could start from here.
Someone mentioned praying earlier. I would suggest praying intently and more reading your Bible before putting you trust in any political organisation(s). Bible prophecy does not point to the outcome you may expect. (1 Thessalonians 5:3)

A couple people have pointed out the original intention of this thread and that it has derailed. I will let that be my closing comment on the matter on this thread.
« Last Edit: March 03, 2017, 10:06:53 PM by Tigertown »

5to10

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Re: 2017 open thread
« Reply #240 on: March 03, 2017, 07:53:51 PM »
You mentioned praying earlier. I would suggest praying intently and more reading your Bible before putting you trust in any political organisation(s). Bible prophecy does not point to the outcome you may expect. (1 Thessalonians 5:3)

A couple people have pointed out the original intention of this thread and that it has derailed. I will let that be my closing comment on the matter on this thread.

I don't think I suggested praying. I'm not a devout Christian in the traditional sense at least. I accept that, as I have read and contemplated the symbolic message, all of what Jesus said in the bible seems logical and is truthful. I do not believe a bearded guy in the sky is gonna send me to burn in a literal pit of fire.

I do not actually expect the U.N. as it exists presently to do anything in the end, but I sort of had to frame it that way.

Also remember.. "death" does not have to be physical, material.. "death" (or "the locking away of the beasts for 1000 years" as Revelations proposes symbolically) of "the beast" could simply mean that a consciousness shift caused "the beast within the minds and actions of people" to be destroyed. Thus, those entities could no longer operate out of evil intent, as they do not have minds to make moral decisions with, the people that compose them do and as such the work of the entities is hinged on that.

"The Beast" cannot not exist anywhere but within each and every one of us, we give "it' power. However "it" naturally acts and speaks best through government and media.

In other words, the government/the U.N./the media, all of these entities would be forced to transform along with our consciousness. They could never exist as they are now afterwards if the majority of the cogs in the machine stopped turning in that direction. Those entities are totally reliant on how WE human beings think and operate within them. I believe only a small sect of those entities are truly "evil", thus things can (and likely will) truly change.

People here are acting as if they are separate, conscious entities. They're not. They do what we make them do. If we all (the vast majority) choose to do and believe something different, so will they have to.

We don't burn "witches" at the stake anymore, because we progressed past a distorted state of awareness that provoked fear-driven responses and ultimately, division. We aren't just going to go back to calling people witches and burning them anytime soon because we understand the truth now. There's no such thing, they burned people alive for no reason, we could never consider "burning witches" anymore because we understand the truth. Would we continue to burn the world? I don't think so. So the truth and our choices are not widely understood.

We can do this here. We can make a change. We can beat division.
« Last Edit: March 03, 2017, 08:20:03 PM by 5to10 »

Cate

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Re: 2017 open thread
« Reply #241 on: March 03, 2017, 09:10:20 PM »
^  ^   ^   ^   ^

And all that is why I miss A-Team.

 8)

jdallen

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Re: 2017 open thread
« Reply #242 on: March 03, 2017, 10:22:01 PM »
^  ^   ^   ^   ^

And all that is why I miss A-Team.

 8)

Twas stuff like this drove him off.

Glad it's quaranteened here.

Jim Williams - I believe in Physics, which is slightly off from your "no Truth" but close enough for us to get along fine, I'd wager.

5to10 - You're arguing a losing battle here, and semantic philosophical argument about "Truth" and "Unity" are unlikely to get traction, and in fact highlight in part why we need robust political structures in place to deal with dissent.
This space for Rent.

johnm33

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Re: 2017 open thread
« Reply #243 on: March 03, 2017, 10:28:33 PM »
I'm not sure an "open thread" like this really belongs in the Cryosphere subforum - worth moving it to "The Rest" subforum with the rest of the general threads?
I can't help but agree.

5to10

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Re: 2017 open thread
« Reply #244 on: March 03, 2017, 10:39:00 PM »
^  ^   ^   ^   ^

And all that is why I miss A-Team.

 8)

Twas stuff like this drove him off.

Glad it's quaranteened here.

Jim Williams - I believe in Physics, which is slightly off from your "no Truth" but close enough for us to get along fine, I'd wager.

5to10 - You're arguing a losing battle here, and semantic philosophical argument about "Truth" and "Unity" are unlikely to get traction, and in fact highlight in part why we need robust political structures in place to deal with dissent.

It's not semantic. It is the only way forward for us. The fundamental choice and these truths will be vividly apparent to all eventually, whether you believe me or like what I'm saying here or not. I am morally obligated to share it and expose deception against it, especially given the circumstances.

Fundamental truth becomes more obvious with time, and that is already starting to become apparent here or people wouldn't be making personal changes in a (potentially futile) effort to stop it. We are becoming more aware of our situation and our individual influence.

Maybe it will take even more serious displacement and destruction for most to understand. I guess the biggest thing in the way of our full awareness is time itself, for these truths are already floating around out there and gaining traction. We ARE recognizing our influence, more and more. We ARE feeling remorseful and making changes, albeit slowly. Events to come will provide more evidence of our roles if trajectory continues.

I suppose this will all happen whether I make these efforts or not, so perhaps this is pointless indeed. As to why I'm here rather than other forums.. Because if you're reading this forum, you're already aware of much, but may feel helpless to enact impactful change. I have presented a huge pre-requisite (unity backed by optimism, clear purpose and truth) and a possible solution to it: Uniting journalism/media with the help of science towards a clear, simple purpose that humanity can stand behind - for goodness, for optimism, by raising fundamental awareness of the fundamental moral decision.

If you can't think of a way around the pre-requisite, why are you even bothering to work on the details beyond it, should you intend to use the knowledge gleaned to change things? It is all futile without tackling the issue of division, so your energy is well spent helping to figure that problem out ASAP as well. The logistics of such an endeavour will require most on the same page, surely. The solutions to all external problems are, in the end, purely internal to begin with. It is the internal that got us here, not the external. It is that which gets us somewhere else too.
« Last Edit: March 03, 2017, 11:05:52 PM by 5to10 »

jdallen

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Re: 2017 open thread
« Reply #245 on: March 04, 2017, 02:21:09 AM »
You will not have unity until you have equality.

You will not have equality until human needs are addressed.

As long as human need fails to be addressed, those in need, and those who obstruct addressing it, will have little interest in any sort of metaphysical truth.

Your arguments smack of the conceit of privilege which neither feels need, nor has the experience of inequality.

Your prideful continuing insistence in repeating them is become tiresome.

This space for Rent.

5to10

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Re: 2017 open thread
« Reply #246 on: March 04, 2017, 02:44:24 AM »
You will not have unity until you have equality.

You will not have equality until human needs are addressed.

As long as human need fails to be addressed, those in need, and those who obstruct addressing it, will have little interest in any sort of metaphysical truth.

Your arguments smack of the conceit of privilege which neither feels need, nor has the experience of inequality.

Your prideful continuing insistence in repeating them is become tiresome.

More borderline ad-hominems? Have I attacked anyone here? Stop this.

Your assumptions are false. I have sacrificed a normal life and many relationships in the search for truth. I have given up almost everything and I make only enough to pay for what I need, plus a couple vices I need to give up. Between 600-800 a month CAD, to be exact, depending on how many days I work. I am content with everything I have and desire nothing more than to find truth, above all else. I am for many years now, and will continue to be, single and abstinent, not for religious purposes but out of my search for truth I have lost the desire to have a physical relationship or a traditional one for that matter, not by thinking about solitude and aiming for it, but simply as a side effect. I embrace and cherish all my relationships otherwise.

I am well aware of the causes and effects of inequality.

This "metaphysical truth" will continue to prove itself true until the majority are aware of it. The events of the day support the ideas. The blissfully ignorant public will wield their pitchforks quickly when reality finally set in, of that we can be sure. From there they will understand the options: Try everything, or give up. I am certainly not the only person realizing these obscure irrefutable truths - am I?

I'm not prideful. I'm obligated to share and defend the truth. Especially in relation to our circumstances. Since you nor anyone else can logically refute it, and continue to focus mainly on symptoms on the disease rather than the cure, as well as spread deceptive information and commentary on the truth, I feel an obligation to respond.
« Last Edit: March 04, 2017, 03:05:06 AM by 5to10 »

jdallen

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Re: 2017 open thread
« Reply #247 on: March 04, 2017, 03:02:05 AM »
You will not have unity until you have equality.

You will not have equality until human needs are addressed.

As long as human need fails to be addressed, those in need, and those who obstruct addressing it, will have little interest in any sort of metaphysical truth.

Your arguments smack of the conceit of privilege which neither feels need, nor has the experience of inequality.

Your prideful continuing insistence in repeating them is become tiresome.

Your assumptions are false. I have sacrificed a normal life and many relationships in the search for truth. I have given up almost everything and I make only enough to pay for what I need, plus a couple vices I need to give up. Between 600-800 a month CAD, to be exact, depending on how many days I work.

I am well aware of the causes and effects of inequality.

This "metaphysical truth" will continue to prove itself true until the majority are aware of it. I am certainly not the only person realizing these obscure irrefutable truths - am I?

I'm not prideful. I'm obligated to share and defend the truth. Especially in relation to our circumstances. Since you nor anyone else can logically refute it, and continue to focus mainly on symptoms on the disease rather than the cure, as well as spread deceptive information and commentary on the truth, I feel an obligation to respond.
You had the privilege to choose.
You have the luxury of a first world nation to live in which supports that choice.
You are obligated by nothing.
You have the smug irrefutable certainty of rectitude appropriate for a zealot. That is the epitome of pride.

As I said, you may argue ad nauseum, but will gain no traction.
This space for Rent.

5to10

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Re: 2017 open thread
« Reply #248 on: March 04, 2017, 03:08:23 AM »
You had the privilege to choose.
You have the luxury of a first world nation to live in which supports that choice.
You are obligated by nothing.
You have the smug irrefutable certainty of rectitude appropriate for a zealot. That is the epitome of pride.

As I said, you may argue ad nauseum, but will gain no traction.

I'm sorry, did I choose that privilege?
I'm sorry, did I choose the nation I was born in?
I'm sorry, are you the master and commander of my beliefs and my personal obligations based on them?
I'm sorry, have you refuted any of my ideas or merely attacked the messenger?

I'm sorry, do you think I will allow malicious commentary lacking substance to dissuade me?

Will you add anything of value to this discussion, or continue to attack me and continue to prove yourself malicious and deceptive?

Does anything you've said here have any relation to what we're talking about? You are awfully focused on me and not the ideas.

My "privilege" has no bearing on the merit of the ideas. You hide from the truth I am presenting behind logical fallacies and personal attacks.

Jim Williams

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Re: 2017 open thread
« Reply #249 on: March 04, 2017, 03:12:45 AM »
I'm not sure an "open thread" like this really belongs in the Cryosphere subforum - worth moving it to "The Rest" subforum with the rest of the general threads?

Yes Please.