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Author Topic: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out  (Read 29358 times)

sidd

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Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
« Reply #500 on: October 11, 2017, 05:11:49 AM »
Wonders will never cease. Even Clinton supporter Markos Moulitsas (DailyKos) comes out against DiFi.

https://mobile.twitter.com/markos/status/917413790748049408

Her days might be numbered. Cool.

sidd

TerryM

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Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
« Reply #501 on: October 11, 2017, 05:47:53 PM »
The opposition to Trump's Republicans needs to win seats in 2018, especially on the State level, otherwise the 2020 gerrymandering will all but kill any chance of defeating Republicans from 2020 until the next census in 2030.


If Democratic candidates can't campaign on popular issues because of their corporate ties they will lose. If the Democrats eschew corporate funding, they could lose simply by being outspent by the Republicans.


The only winning path that I can see is for the Democrats to campaign on the issues that disturb their corporate sponsors, and rely on individual contributions to pay the bills. Trump has proven that a candidate doesn't need to outspend his opposition to win. Bernie has proven that his democratic vision resonates with the voters.


If we can't learn from this loss, I'm afraid we'll have plenty more to learn from.


Terry

sidd

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Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
« Reply #502 on: October 11, 2017, 09:46:01 PM »

TerryM

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Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
« Reply #503 on: October 13, 2017, 02:15:36 AM »
Gee, when did the onion begin writing Pelosi's speeches ?

http://www.theonion.com/blogpost/americans-are-tired-same-old-pandering-and-stale-i-57135

The Onion presents a realistic overview of the DNC's campaigns for both 2018 and 2020 campaigns.


I finally got around to reading:
https://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2017/09/how-america-lost-its-mind/534231/


An interesting look back at the recent history of of America, and how it has lost it's mind.


The premise is that since the 60's, fantasy has been more and more accepted across the entire political landscape. Hippies insisted that their fantasies were as real as the authorities authoritative truths. The authorities encouraged this when they mixed fact with fiction to demonize the hippies. Eventually the right responded by insisting that their Christian delusions should be taught beside Darwin's revalations. The left's response that this violated known truths was met with derision, and memories of Past life regression, EMDR therapy. and Flower power.


Over time Trump demanded that his beliefs be given the same weight as empirical fact. When he says that "Many believe", or that he'd, "Read in on the internet", these are pleas to ignore the truth and to act on beliefs, rather than to act as truth demands.


Neven sees a divide between scientific truth and political fantasy.
I see a correlation between scientific truth and political reality.


Political reality, I believe, can be every bit as robust a reality as scientific reality.
When provocateurs invite their followers to see monsters, monsters do appear. Not necessarily in the person that the politician had directed his followers to observe. Not necessarily in the person of the provocateur himself, but some true believer in his audience will become a monster, perhaps many.


Is this as real as the reality that ice melts when warmed?


If ice is kept away from heat sources, it generally doesn't become a liquid.
If people are kept away from provocateurs, they generally don't become monsters.


To prevent the melting of Arctic ice we need to discourage global warming.
To prevent the making of monsters we need to discourage provocateurs.


We must begin calling out the dangerously untrue and unreal whether in the scientific or the political realm.
Terry
« Last Edit: October 13, 2017, 03:37:21 AM by TerryM »

sidd

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Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
« Reply #504 on: October 13, 2017, 03:28:08 AM »
Re:
--
"If people are kept away from provocateurs, they generally don't become monsters."

"To prevent the making of monsters we need to discourage provocateurs."

"We must begin calling out the dangerously untrue and unreal whether in the scientific of the political realm."
--
I take it that in the last sentence "of" should be read "or."

I do not believe the first sentence, or the second. In my experience monsters can grow all by themselves but  in a healthy society they gain no power.

As to the third sentence, I wonder what "calling out" means ? Some seem to think that "calling out" means "shouting down."

sidd

TerryM

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Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
« Reply #505 on: October 13, 2017, 05:02:16 AM »
Re:
--
"If people are kept away from provocateurs, they generally don't become monsters."

"To prevent the making of monsters we need to discourage provocateurs."

"We must begin calling out the dangerously untrue and unreal whether in the scientific of the political realm."
--
I take it that in the last sentence "of" should be read "or."

I do not believe the first sentence, or the second. In my experience monsters can grow all by themselves but  in a healthy society they gain no power.

As to the third sentence, I wonder what "calling out" means ? Some seem to think that "calling out" means "shouting down."

sidd


Thanks for the heads up, I've corrected the original.


I've known very few "monsters" in my life. All the really crazed ones seemed to be motivated by righting a real or perceived wrong. When that perception is incorrect, a monster has been "made".
I'm sure the man who killed Qaddafi believed he was saving the world from a monster.


Carving a swastika in someone's forehead, after knocking out his front teeth is a monstrous act, dousing him with lighter fuel and igniting the same is worse, when you learn that the "victim" was Charlie Manson does that change anything?


Some do seem to believe that "shouting down" is an acceptable form of debate, unfortunately.


Here in Canada we have laws against "hate speech" which recognize the danger of inflaming passions against persons or groups. The law isn't heavily enforced, which is a shame.
Terry


Jim Pettit

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Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
« Reply #506 on: October 13, 2017, 12:57:25 PM »
Carving a swastika in someone's forehead, after knocking out his front teeth is a monstrous act, dousing him with lighter fuel and igniting the same is worse, when you learn that the "victim" was Charlie Manson does that change anything?

Dealing in hypotheticals now? Manson's gave himself his forehead swastika (nee 'X'). Anyway, my answer would remain the same: I don't condone vigilante justice of any kind, and I loathe violence.

I don't believe that "shouting down" is an acceptable form of debate. However, if a loathsome pig with a long and well-documented history of spouting hateful and divisive rhetoric with the intention of provoking violence opens his mouth, I see nothing wrong with speaking over him. Not as a form of debate--the pig is not interested in that--but as a way of ensuring the non-hateful and non-divisive is heard. Some may not see a difference, but a difference there is.

TerryM

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Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
« Reply #507 on: October 13, 2017, 06:52:25 PM »
Carving a swastika in someone's forehead, after knocking out his front teeth is a monstrous act, dousing him with lighter fuel and igniting the same is worse, when you learn that the "victim" was Charlie Manson does that change anything?

Dealing in hypotheticals now? Manson's gave himself his forehead swastika (nee 'X'). Anyway, my answer would remain the same: I don't condone vigilante justice of any kind, and I loathe violence.

I don't believe that "shouting down" is an acceptable form of debate. However, if a loathsome pig with a long and well-documented history of spouting hateful and divisive rhetoric with the intention of provoking violence opens his mouth, I see nothing wrong with speaking over him. Not as a form of debate--the pig is not interested in that--but as a way of ensuring the non-hateful and non-divisive is heard. Some may not see a difference, but a difference there is.
Do your sources also believe that he knocked out his own teeth, then later set himself afire like a Vietnamese monk?
Terry

Buddy

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Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
« Reply #508 on: October 14, 2017, 02:42:21 PM »
Karma is a funny thing isn't it?  You just never know where she will pop up.  Spend too much time worrying about secondary issues instead of the primary issues  in another country....and all of the sudden a 31 year old problem surfaces in your own country. 😳

What could possibly go wrong with an "experienced" 31 year old nationalist leader? 😉
FOX (TASS) News....."The Trump Channel.....where truth and journalism are dead."

Neven

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Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
« Reply #509 on: October 14, 2017, 03:38:11 PM »
Karma is a funny thing isn't it?  You just never know where she will pop up.  Spend too much time worrying about secondary issues instead of the primary issues  in another country....and all of the sudden a 31 year old problem surfaces in your own country. 😳

What could possibly go wrong with an "experienced" 31 year old nationalist leader? 😉

Nothing will go wrong. The rich will continue to get richer. That's all.

That's what you get when the local Democrats (SPÖ, 'left') hire some Israeli spin doctor (guess where he learned his trade) to set up fake Facebook pages where one opponent (ÖVP, right) gets smeared by the other opponent (FPÖ, extreme right) in the hope that voters would get turned off by both and vote SPÖ.

No vision, no ideas, no passion, just political correctness, identity politics and dirty tricks. In the meantime the FPÖ successfully employs Trump tactics. And in Austria there isn't even a Sanders to show a real, meaningful alternative. Nobody understands what is really at stake, just like in the US.

I can't vote here yet, as I haven't been in Austria for long enough. I wanted to vote for the Dutch elections, but didn't know I had to register months in advance. BTW, the local Democrats there, the PvdA, have also made a total mess of themselves, but thankfully there are some parties that could be considered somewhat left, or at least not neoliberal/con. The PVV (extreme right) is too stupid to capitalize, but there are other narcissistic egotists popping up to fill the void. No Sanders in sight there either, only blah blah blah.

Keep focusing on Trump and appearances, Buddy, and one day you will see that real karma is. You know, when Pence takes over, or when a smart version of Trump shows up in the coming 10 years, and your 'resistance' consists of Barbie and Ken.  ;D
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Buddy

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Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
« Reply #510 on: October 14, 2017, 04:13:25 PM »
Take the first step first....then work on the second step.  But you definitely have to get rid of the first problem FIRST.  Thoughts from an ally... you just don't know I'm an ally. 😊

FOX (TASS) News....."The Trump Channel.....where truth and journalism are dead."

TerryM

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Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
« Reply #511 on: October 14, 2017, 08:17:56 PM »
Take the first step first....then work on the second step.  But you definitely have to get rid of the first problem FIRST.  Thoughts from an ally... you just don't know I'm an ally. 😊


My ally's don't promote Pence's Presidency. We got rid of LBJ once, remember how well that worked out?
Terry

Neven

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Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
« Reply #512 on: October 14, 2017, 09:55:10 PM »
Take the first step first....then work on the second step.  But you definitely have to get rid of the first problem FIRST.  Thoughts from an ally... you just don't know I'm an ally. 😊

Hello, ally.  :)

Can't you get rid of the first problem by replacing it with the best possible alternative? Or do you need to replace it with another problem (Corporate Democrats)? After which the first problem takes over again, but bigger. Rinse and repeat.

We don't have time for rinse and repeat.
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jai mitchell

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Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
« Reply #513 on: October 19, 2017, 06:05:18 PM »
How a purchased government operates

Haiku of Past Futures
My "burning embers"
are not tri-color bar graphs
+3C today

sidd

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Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
« Reply #514 on: October 19, 2017, 06:27:24 PM »
Follow the money. The Sackler family is behind Purdue Pharma and the opiod crisis. They are now exporting the model internationally. Tjose oligarchs are equal opportunity oligarchs, they have no problem buying legislators of any color.

http://www.esquire.com/news-politics/a12775932/sackler-family-oxycontin/

sidd



sidd

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Neven

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Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
« Reply #516 on: October 19, 2017, 08:10:53 PM »
Nothing about cheater Donna Brazile?

Brazen. Do they really think they're going to get away with this?
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TerryM

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Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
« Reply #517 on: October 19, 2017, 08:33:56 PM »
DNC removing progressives again. This doesn't look good.

https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/elections/shakeup-democratic-national-committee-longtime-officials-ousted-n812126

sidd
Does appointing someone because of their qualifications as a "Jewish, veteran, transgender, lesbian, grandparent, small business owner", seem almost caricaturish? I'm sure that an Amish, dwarf, hermaphrodite, homeless, Wiccan, refugee from Luxembourg, would be equally qualified.


I like a joke as well as anyone, but these are serious times.
Terry

sidd

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Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
« Reply #518 on: October 19, 2017, 08:41:55 PM »
"Do they really think they're going to get away with this?"

They think so. Then they will whine a lot when they lose even more seats come 2018.

sidd

sidd

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Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
« Reply #519 on: October 19, 2017, 10:30:42 PM »
Like I said, they keep doing it:

"“Dianne has a very progressive record, but she also is respected by some of the Republicans who hold the future of the country in their hands,” Angelides concluded. “We are going to need people of stature and strength like her to guide us through.” "

These guys have no shame.

http://www.sacbee.com/news/politics-government/capitol-alert/article179634421.html

sidd

sidd

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pileus

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Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
« Reply #521 on: October 21, 2017, 04:17:35 PM »
Follow the money. The Sackler family is behind Purdue Pharma and the opiod crisis. They are now exporting the model internationally. Tjose oligarchs are equal opportunity oligarchs, they have no problem buying legislators of any color.

http://www.esquire.com/news-politics/a12775932/sackler-family-oxycontin/

sidd

It's an incredible piece of reportage and should be considered for a Pulitzer, and really hits home for any of us who were ensnared in the prescription opioid epidemic as chronic/acute pain patients but escaped before it was too late.

The Sacklers are in the same league as the Kochs and Mercers as among the most greed-driven and destructive families in the US and globally.

pileus

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Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
« Reply #522 on: October 21, 2017, 04:29:47 PM »
"Do they really think they're going to get away with this?"

They think so. Then they will whine a lot when they lose even more seats come 2018.

sidd

Democrats of all stripes, corporate/centrist/liberal/progressive/leftist, are on track to win the majority and House seats and are showing signs of competitiveness in the Senate.  The primary obstacles will be the Republican state level minority voter supression efforts (which are quite effective), and failure to confront Kremlin driven interfence and propaganda that has infested social and mainstream media platforms, and is fully embraced by the GOP, Fox, and their apologists.

Turnout in non-presidential cycles is always an issue, but there is massive awareness and organizing in progress to confront that challenge.  Im afraid the voter supression and Kremlin efforts may be too steep to overcome.  Level the playing field, and voters prefer Democrats and their policies by a comfortable margin.

TerryM

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Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
« Reply #523 on: October 21, 2017, 05:39:14 PM »
Follow the money. The Sackler family is behind Purdue Pharma and the opiod crisis. They are now exporting the model internationally. Tjose oligarchs are equal opportunity oligarchs, they have no problem buying legislators of any color.

http://www.esquire.com/news-politics/a12775932/sackler-family-oxycontin/

sidd

It's an incredible piece of reportage and should be considered for a Pulitzer, and really hits home for any of us who were ensnared in the prescription opioid epidemic as chronic/acute pain patients but escaped before it was too late.

The Sacklers are in the same league as the Kochs and Mercers as among the most greed-driven and destructive families in the US and globally.


Yes!
An article that reads as if written in the 60's. Real investigative reporting that holds your interest from the opening paragraphs. Christopher Glazek is someone I'll keep an eye open for.
Meet the Sackers, they make the drug cartels look like street corner dealers.
Terry

TerryM

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Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
« Reply #524 on: October 22, 2017, 08:24:31 PM »
On another thread I'd made the proposal that I'd go along with the DNC if they would drop their Health Care donations for a single election cycle.


My reasoning is that during this cycle they could run on the promise of single payer health care, (socalized medicine), should they gain power. I believe the resulting swing to the Democratic Party would convince the candidates that they would be much better off by dumping any donor not supportive of Democratic principals, and that thereafter those donors would find damn few on our side of the aisle willing to take their tainted money.


I think that limiting our goal to a single issue gives it a much better chance of being accepted, and I believe that the results would be so positive that future candidates would realize the benefits of just saying no.


Any thoughts?
Terry

Rob Dekker

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Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
« Reply #525 on: October 26, 2017, 09:19:03 AM »
Corporate Democrats are not the problem.
The Republicans are.


Neven

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Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
« Reply #526 on: October 26, 2017, 10:13:10 AM »
Corporate Democrats make it easy for Republicans to be a problem, because of their losing strategy. That's why clown Trump is now president Trump.

If voters get to choose between a real Republican and a fake Republican, they will pick a real Republican most of the time (as it's obvious the fake one is fake). Maybe try and let them pick between a real Republican and a progressive Democrat, who is not beholden to corporate interests? How else are you going to get money out of politics?

Well, right now, the Democratic Party is clearly in the stranglehold of people who want to keep that gravytrain going at all cost, with the latest DNC shenanigans as a perfect example. If this doesn't change, prepare for things that are even worse than Trump.

I truly believe that a first step towards a solution is breaking that Corporate Democrat stranglehold. Now, this thread is about how to accomplish that. Who are those Corporate Democrats and how do you kick them out?

For instance, people who have been involved a lot with the Podestas would seem suspect to me, given how one of the Podestas worked together with Manafort to promote the pro-Russian government in Ukraine a few years ago. And we know about the other Podesta after his mails were leaked. These people are part of a group that obviously doesn't care about what's right or left, or right or wrong, as long as the money, the power and the fame keep coming in.

That's just an example that might resonate with you, Rob. I don't know who you would consider to be problematic Corporate Democrats, and how you'd go about giving them the message that from now on the American people take precedence again over their billionaire donors, or else they don't get re-elected.
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Neven

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Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
« Reply #527 on: October 26, 2017, 05:18:51 PM »
Rob, one person who, I believe, gives a really good explanation of how the Democratic Party got to where it is, and why it's being abandoned so massively by the working class, is historian Thomas Frank. Here's a recent interview with him for Dutch TV:



There are many more videos out there of interviews with Frank. I believe one of the best ones was the series done by The Real News Network (with Paul Jay), but that's a lot to watch.

Here's a good, shorter (pre-election) interview on Democracy Now:



And part 2:

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TerryM

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Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
« Reply #528 on: October 26, 2017, 06:13:58 PM »
Neven


Thanks for introducing me to Thomas Frank.


He said something nice about Harry Truman at one point, and that was my only disagreement with him. The horror he felt looking at a Trump Presidency, modified later by the reality of a very ineffective person in the job, is something that most of the left will recognize at some point in time, especially as the possibility of a Pence Presidency grows near.


What he didn't address was my big issue, which is the matter of a hot war with a major nuclear power. Hillary walked away from a large part of her voting block, and her actions as Secretary of State scared away many more.


He noted Hillary campaigning on her resume, but didn't connect this directly to the hobbles that her corporate donors had placed on her campaign. Perhaps it's buried in his book.


Terry

Neven

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Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
« Reply #529 on: October 26, 2017, 06:44:00 PM »
Terry, in this comment I made last month there's a link to the interview series with Frank on the Real News Network. That's probably the best interview I've seen with him.

He explains very well, in my opinion, how the Democratic Party got to where it is (with Trump in the White House as a logical by-product). The question in my mind is: How to go forward? We don't have to expect any meaningful change from the Republicans, as they are utterly corrupt and morally bankrupt. I don't think there's time to set up a third party. So change will have to come from the Democratic party, but it obviously has to change itself to make that possible.

And what is Sanders going to do? What role will he play in all of this?
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Rob Dekker

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Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
« Reply #530 on: October 27, 2017, 04:50:54 AM »
Thanks for the Thomas Frank interview.

Frankly speaking (no pun intended) I think Thomas Frank does the Democratic party a great dis-service. It's almost as if he is working for Trump.

If you want to have a strong Democratic party that represents the people, then you should try to bring people together, not try to divide them or "kick them out" as this thread suggests.

That's just playing in the hands of Republicans, who have a huge propaganda machine running that is non-stop smearing the Democratic party and trying to divide it. Why do that, guys ?

In terms of reforming the Democratic party, Bernie Sanders showed the way here. He is leading the effort to reform the party to be one for the people, by the people and with the people, and he does it without corporate sponsors. And he was amazingly successful (with 45% of the vote in the primary) considering that he came out of nowhere, and received virtually no media coverage.

The reformation that Thomas Frank is suggesting is already happening with the Bernie movement. That is why I'm so disappointed that Frank did not even mention Bernie in his interview.

And then Frank started to poo-poo the Russian meddling in the US elections. Trying to get some laughs out of the Dutch audience, while the Dutch went to manually counting paper ballots just to avoid foreign cyber attacks on their election. So it was a real concern in Holland.

Not mentioning Bernie, and this down-playing of Russian meddling in the elections is another reason why I think Frank is more interested in destroying the Democratic party than in building it up. In other words : He is advancing the Trump agenda.
« Last Edit: October 27, 2017, 07:48:17 AM by Rob Dekker »

Rob Dekker

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Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
« Reply #531 on: October 27, 2017, 04:53:06 AM »
Oh. I have not read the entire thread, but did you guys already compile a list of Democrats that you consider "corporate" and who you want to be "kicked out" ?

If so, which metric did you use to determine "corporate" and "non-corporate" Democrats ?
Did you look at their voting records or so ?

Neven

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Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
« Reply #532 on: October 27, 2017, 12:42:08 PM »
Rob, you bring up several points. I'll try and give you my views on a couple of them.

I'll start with the last point first, as it's central to this thread:

Oh. I have not read the entire thread, but did you guys already compile a list of Democrats that you consider "corporate" and who you want to be "kicked out" ?

If so, which metric did you use to determine "corporate" and "non-corporate" Democrats ?
Did you look at their voting records or so ?

I, personally, haven't had the time to look at all Democrats and their voting records, but from my perspective - here in Austria, not the USA, of course - there are a couple of (leading) Democratic politicians that really give the impression that they're more interested in serving their donors than the American people: Nancy Pelosi, Chuck Schumer, Dianne Feinstein, Cory Booker, Joe Manchin, and of course, the Clintons and Obama. And then there's the DNC, with Tom Perez, Donna Brazile and a host of others, superdelegates included.

It's not necessarily about creating some black list with clearly defined, scientific parameters. It's clear that politicians sometimes have to make compromises, especially in a political system that is as tainted as the American one. But there's a limit to how large the difference between public and private positions can get. And everyone agrees that money has to be taken out of politics (the DNC recently voted against it).

There has to be a clear message that this is no longer accepted, pressure has to be put on politicians to give priority to the needs of the people over the needs of the very few, very rich, or else... And then, by their reactions will they be known.

This isn't just about morals. It's also about strategy. The reason that the Democrats are so massively unpopular isn't just because of some successful smear campaign by the Republicans. It's the Democrats that provide the fodder themselves, making it super easy to smear them. If only for the fact that they have moved so far right they can't be called progressive any longer, which makes them hypocritical at the very least (Obama being the prime example). And so they lose.

Like you say yourself, Sanders is showing the way out, by talking about the issues the American people care about and by not taking any corporate money to show he means business. That's a winning strategy.

If you want to have a strong Democratic party that represents the people, then you should try to bring people together, not try to divide them or "kick them out" as this thread suggests.

People are together and united. You yourself have mentioned the Bernie movement. There are large groups of activists who band together to help candidates that aren't beholden to special interests get elected to Congress (see Justice Democrats).

But these are the very people that are being shut out by the Democratic Party and the DNC! Have you noticed how the Resistance is most notably resisting Sanders, the most popular politician in the United States with the most popular ideas? Why would that be? Why isn't he the leader of the Democratic Party, with all the Democrats echoing his ideas and plans.

It's clearly a winning strategy, Trump has proved as much (although he was lying, of course), so why isn't the Democratic Party following Sanders' lead?

The reformation that Thomas Frank is suggesting is already happening with the Bernie movement. That is why I'm so disappointed that Frank did not even mention Bernie in his interview.

There are dozens of interviews with Frank on YouTube, and he mentions Sanders all the time. In fact, he wrote an essay in Harper's Magazine to point out the inexplicable media hostility towards Sanders (and then explain it).

As for reforms. Yes, Sanders wants to reform the Democratic Party, so that it becomes a party of the people again. But he is being resisted. There's clearly an internal struggle going on within the Democratic Party that may well determine the fate of the USA, but what's not clear, is who is going to come out on top. Right now, the Corporate Democrats still have their hands firmly on the wheel, trying to throw out any Bernie progressives and creating all kinds of obstacles for candidates that don't toe the party line. Are you following any of this, or is it new to you?

That's just playing in the hands of Republicans, who have a huge propaganda machine running that is non-stop smearing the Democratic party and trying to divide it. Why do that, guys ?

Everything plays into the hands of the Republicans, because they are lying SOBs. So why worry about that all the time? Not only does this fear lead to paralysis and contortions, but it inevitably leads one to start thinking like a Republican. Another reason the Democratic Party has moved so far right, causing the GOP to move even further right. And time and again they prove they're willing to use the same dirty tricks as the Republicans (like colluding with a foreign government to find compromising material on political opponents), which gives Republicans something to hide behind.

You have to think long and hard about what you stand for, and then actually stand for it, unwaveringly. Who cares what the Republicans will say about it? What kind of an argument is it to say that the Democratic Party must not change (and resist Bernie Sanders and his ideas) because it might play into the hands of the Republicans? Do what's right for the American people, g*****n it! Show some spine!

Did you see how Bernie Sanders recently completely destroyed Ted Cruz by continuously stressing the fact that he is sponsored by oligarchs and does their bidding? Which Corporate Democrat can do that? They can't, by default, because 1) they mustn't disappoint their donors, and 2) everyone can see they're full of s***. And so they stay polite, beating around the bush, presenting their hollow non-vision full of commonplaces and identity politics.

Frankly speaking (no pun intended) I think Thomas Frank does the Democratic party a great dis-service. It's almost as if he is working for Trump.

Not mentioning Bernie, and this down-playing of Russian meddling in the elections is another reason why I think Frank is more interested in destroying the Democratic party than in building it up. In other words : He is advancing the Trump agenda.

It's the Democratic Party in its current form that is advancing the Trump agenda, with its hollow words, its clear ties to corporate donors/oligarchs and its massive own goals. When someone points out this is so, and explains the history and psychology behind all of it, you can either think about what he/she says and decide which parts you find plausible and which you don't. Or you can just smear that person off the bat and indirectly advance the Trump agenda some more.

Let me ask you, Rob: Is the Democratic Party perfect as it is? Do Corporate Democrats not exist? What, if anything, needs to change?
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wili

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Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
« Reply #533 on: October 27, 2017, 07:57:33 PM »
I guess a shortcut would be to just look at which Dems supported Perez for head of the DNC vs which ones supported my representative, Keith Ellison.
"A force de chercher de bonnes raisons, on en trouve; on les dit; et après on y tient, non pas tant parce qu'elles sont bonnes que pour ne pas se démentir." Choderlos de Laclos "You struggle to come up with some valid reasons, then cling to them, not because they're good, but just to not back down."

sidd

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Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
« Reply #534 on: October 27, 2017, 10:11:54 PM »
Democrat supporters moving left:

" ...  majority of Democrats and the overwhelming majority of young Democrats believe that the party is insufficiently to the left."

" ... Sen. Bernie Sanders (I-Vt.) continues his streak as the country’s most popular major politician, with the highest favorables of any candidate among all respondents as well as among key subsets including African-Americans, Hispanic people and young people."

" ... nearly two thirds of respondents felt that the current investigations into President Donald Trump’s ties to Russia are hurting the country more than helping. Only 51% of Democrats felt the investigation was helping, with the other 49% arguing it was hurting."

https://mic.com/articles/185505/poll-a-majority-of-democrats-want-the-party-to-move-left-and-oppose-its-leadership

harvardharrispoll.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/10/HCAPS-October_Topline-Memo_with-banners_Registered-Voters_Current-Events.pdf

sidd

ivica

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Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
« Reply #535 on: October 28, 2017, 12:03:41 AM »
How about supporting ppl like Kyle to achieve topic's goal?   


TerryM

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Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
« Reply #536 on: October 28, 2017, 01:50:00 AM »
Ivica


 Well it's now official.
The democrats in the US of A have lost their collective minds.


Terry

Martin Gisser

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Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
« Reply #537 on: October 28, 2017, 02:53:11 AM »
I don't yet understand why Obama might have been a corporate Democrat. But sure there must be something to it with Hillary: Fox News now wants her on the electric chair for selling uranium to the Russians:
https://www.mediamatters.org/video/2017/10/26/sebastian-gorka-says-hillary-clinton-should-be-convicted-treason-rosenbergs-those-people-got-chair/218353

----------------
In these times me German also finds it easy to like the elderly GWB. He has evolved from the smirking chimp and developed quite some charm and humor. He can even make jokes about himself and how he messed up sometimes. And Obama also seems to like him.

</sarcasm off>
"The universe is irrelevant for all practical purpose, so better forget about being thrown into it." --Florifulgurator

Rob Dekker

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Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
« Reply #538 on: October 28, 2017, 03:34:00 AM »
there are a couple of (leading) Democratic politicians that really give the impression that they're more interested in serving their donors than the American people: Nancy Pelosi, Chuck Schumer, Dianne Feinstein, Cory Booker, Joe Manchin, and of course, the Clintons and Obama. And then there's the DNC, with Tom Perez, Donna Brazile and a host of others, superdelegates included.

Boy, oh, boy. It is as if I am looking at the comment section of a FoxNews article.
Seriously, what did any of these people do wrong to deserve this ?
Can you please be more specific than "really give the impression" as to why these fine people have to go ? Maybe an example of their voting record that gave you that 'impression' ?

If only for the fact that they have moved so far right they can't be called progressive any longer, which makes them hypocritical at the very least (Obama being the prime example). And so they lose.
Toe maar.
Obama was the most progressive president in modern history, and the first one to call out climate change as a real issue and actually do something about it (Keystone XL vote and Clean Power Plan).
What did he do wrong to be called 'hypocritical' ?
« Last Edit: October 28, 2017, 03:39:25 AM by Rob Dekker »

Rob Dekker

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Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
« Reply #539 on: October 28, 2017, 03:54:52 AM »
Sidd, thanks for that poll.
Especially interesting is this question " Republican leaders in Congress are in touch or out of touch with Republican voters" ; 73% of Trump voters stated "out-of-touch".
Not sure if that is a good or bad thing, but it surely means that Trump voters want to see more changes. Which is an opportunity for the Bernie movement.

The good thing about democracy is that if millions of people rise up together and demand change, then change will happen !

The Democratic party will be no exception.

Bernie lost the race against Hillary in 2016, but if the movement ("Our Revolution") takes hold, then there will be nothing to stop it.
If the Democratic party leadership objects, then Bernie can start his own party, and if enough people vote for them, they will win.

Until then, the main problem is not the "Corporate Democrats" but the Republicans.

[edit] You can leave the smearing of "Corporate Democrats" to the right wing press. They are still creating fake scandals about Clinton even though she is no longer in office. Like this Uranium One "scandal", originating from Breitbart, that, after 3 posts encouraging it, even NewsWeek finally calls out as a conspiracy theory that does not make any sense :
http://www.newsweek.com/hillary-clinton-uranium-conspiracy-theory-distraction-trump-russia-694525
« Last Edit: October 28, 2017, 05:33:21 AM by Rob Dekker »

budmantis

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Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
« Reply #540 on: October 28, 2017, 07:00:50 AM »
I don't yet understand why Obama might have been a corporate Democrat. But sure there must be something to it with Hillary: Fox News now wants her on the electric chair for selling uranium to the Russians:
https://www.mediamatters.org/video/2017/10/26/sebastian-gorka-says-hillary-clinton-should-be-convicted-treason-rosenbergs-those-people-got-chair/218353

----------------
In these times me German also finds it easy to like the elderly GWB. He has evolved from the smirking chimp and developed quite some charm and humor. He can even make jokes about himself and how he messed up sometimes. And Obama also seems to like him.

</sarcasm off>

At least Michelle Obama likes GWB! If someone told me ten years ago that POTUS in 2017 would be someone I detested more than W, I wouldn't have believed it.

BudM

Rob Dekker

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Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
« Reply #541 on: October 28, 2017, 07:11:53 AM »
Here is a simple example of my point :

The Budget Committee hearings, voting on the disastrous Republican budget proposal that will give a trillion dollar tax cut to the rich :



If you want to, go to the actual voting (roll call) to table one of Bernie's amendments at 13:00 minutes into this video. Another one at 16:00.

Since the voting went by party lines (all Republicans in favor, all Democrats against) Then I ask you guys this : does it really matter if a Democrat is "corporate" by your self-determined opinion, or not ? Does it matter if they are 'left' enough ? It does not, since ALL Democrats vote against Trump's bills.

So the problem is NOT in the Democratic party, guys. No matter what Thomas Frank, or Neven, is saying.
« Last Edit: October 28, 2017, 08:02:35 AM by Rob Dekker »

sidd

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Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
« Reply #542 on: October 28, 2017, 07:13:42 AM »
Asking for evidence on Pelosi, DiFi and Schumer shows stunning inattention:

1) Pelosi:

a) Took impeachment off the table for bush the lesser
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/05/11/AR2006051101950.html

b) Briefed several times on torture and then professed ignorance
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/12/08/AR2007120801664_pf.html

c) Caved (like Obama) on telecom immunity
https://pelosi.house.gov/news/press-releases/pelosi-floor-statement-on-fisa

d)Paid her husband with PAC donations:
http://news.muckety.com/2008/10/02/nancy-pelosi-used-political-donations-to-pay-husbands-firm/5392

e) Caved on public option in health care
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/05/11/AR2006051101950.html

f)Traded in VISA stock while a bill was in the house:
https://www.cbsnews.com/news/new-details-on-visas-attempt-to-influence-pelosi/

g)
2) DiFi:

a) voted for iraq war

b) Loves telecom immunity
http://www.sfgate.com/bayarea/article/Feinstein-backs-legal-immunity-for-telecom-firms-3301397.php

c) voted money for her husband a lot

 ...  resigned from MILCON committee when it emerged she was pipelining money to her husband's firms
http://www.metroactive.com/metro/01.24.07/dianne-feinstein-0704.html

...  voted to send money to her husband to sell foreclosed properties:
http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2009/apr/21/senate-husbands-firm-cashes-in-on-crisis/

 ... Then her husband scammed the post office in 2011:
https://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/12/12/dianne-feinstein-postal-service_n_4423045.html

d) Loves PATRIOT act and FISA extensions, voted for all of them
https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2012/dec/28/fisa-feinstein-obama-democrats-eavesdropping

3) Chuck Schumer

a) voted for iraq war

b)liked torture forawhile:
http://thehill.com/blogs/blog-briefing-room/news/lawmaker-news/35713-schumer-on-torture-2004-do-what-you-have-to-do

a) Even the NYT recognizes Schumer iis Wall Street slave
 http://www.nytimes.com/2008/12/14/business/14schumer.html

b) top contributors are financial firms, opensecrets.org

c) low taxes for the rich : wikipedia:

"Schumer had been a staunch defender of low taxes on hedge fund and private equity managers in the past, arguing that this was necessary to protect the industry. Serving on both the Senate Banking and Finance Committees, Schumer was in a position to block attempts to tax their financial gains at the rate other taxpayers pay for income.[127] In 2010, however, Schumer suggested that a hedge-fund tax would be acceptable and not hurt the industry.[128]

In February 2012, Schumer said that he disagreed with the Obama administration's call to raise taxes on those making more than $250,000 a year, calling for a million-dollar level instead. According to Schumer, "there are a lot of people who make above 250 who aren't rich."[129]"

d) Never saw intellectual property restrictions he didnt like, check him out on SOPA and PIPA
http://blog.timesunion.com/capitol/archives/109409/after-public-drubbing-on-sopa-and-pipa-schumer-gillibrand-hit-%e2%80%98command-z%e2%80%99/

e)opposed iran nuclear deal, then flipped on it:
http://nypost.com/2017/10/18/behind-schumers-shocking-switch-on-the-iran-deal/

d) Manchin: do i have to say anything here ?

Screw these people. Primary em, cut off their oxygen by mobilizing the low income vote.

sidd



Rob Dekker

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Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
« Reply #543 on: October 28, 2017, 08:14:19 AM »
Sidd, I don't have time to fact-check all of your items.
So I just did the first one :

Asking for evidence on Pelosi, DiFi and Schumer shows stunning inattention:

1) Pelosi:

a) Took impeachment off the table for bush the lesser
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/05/11/AR2006051101950.html

Pelosi preferred an investigation of who was to blame for this information failure, and what Bush really knew and what not, before issuing a judgement.

She did NOT rule out that impeachment would follow if the investigation showed that Bush was to blame for the information failure. From your post :

She said impeachment would not be a goal of the investigations, but she added: "You never know where it leads to."

Pelosi made the right decision there. Not to mention that if she would have pushed for impeachment, and she would have succeeded, that we would have had a President Cheney.

As if that would have helped...
« Last Edit: October 28, 2017, 09:32:25 AM by Rob Dekker »

Rob Dekker

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Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
« Reply #544 on: October 28, 2017, 08:30:24 AM »
Now that I debunked one of your arguments, I have a comment, sidd :

Your response of throwing mudd at Democrats is very similar to what we see on Fox News and right-wing blog sites.

When your statement sound like right-wing supporters, confirm what right-wing supporters say and re-enforce the right-wing agenda, then it is very hard for outsiders like me to determine the difference.

If it sounds like a pig, smells like a pig, and looks like a pig, it is probably a pig.

sidd

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Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
« Reply #545 on: October 28, 2017, 09:17:24 AM »
Some of us prefer that a war criminal and torturer is brought to justice, but I see that some don't.

As for personal insult, i repeat my request that those moved to invective please killfile the authors that moved them so deeply.

sidd


pileus

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Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
« Reply #546 on: October 28, 2017, 02:58:42 PM »

Screw these people. Primary em, cut off their oxygen by mobilizing the low income vote.

sidd

Mobilizing the vote is an incredibly important "common ground" concept, whether you are a Corporate Dem or a conspiracy fueled Leftist.  GOP voter supression efforts are largely meant to keep minorities and low income people away from the ballot box.  Within the Dem party, turnout is always a struggle in midterms and off cycle elections.  And some on the Authoritarian Left fancy their own form of supression by pushing for the caucus system over individual votes.

Clinton won voters <$50k vs Sanders 56/43 and vs Trump 53/41. Margins would have been higher with more mobilization and less supression.  Lower income folks understand that incrementalism beats revolution any day.

WRT some of the congressional Dem figures noted, I'd prefer to see new leaders rise up and replace Pelosi and Schumer mainly to insert fresh thinking into the party and reflect shifting generational demographics and issues relevant to future society.  But the "banish them purity or else" approach is neither wise nor a winning strategy.  We don't need a Left version of the Tea Party.



Neven

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Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
« Reply #547 on: October 29, 2017, 10:45:11 PM »
Now that I debunked one of your arguments, I have a comment, sidd :

Your response of throwing mudd at Democrats is very similar to what we see on Fox News and right-wing blog sites.

When your statement sound like right-wing supporters, confirm what right-wing supporters say and re-enforce the right-wing agenda, then it is very hard for outsiders like me to determine the difference.

If it sounds like a pig, smells like a pig, and looks like a pig, it is probably a pig.

Rob, this line of argument is very similar to what we see on Fox news and right-wing blog sites. Therefore it must be invalid.  :D

It's like saying: Sean Hannity says Harvey Weinstein is a sexual abuser, and so it probably isn't true. I don't know which fallacy on the list it is (syllogistic fallacy?), but it is a fallacy. Just saying.

But anyway...

After giving my views, I posed a couple questions of my own to you, Rob, but you didn't reply directly. Here they are again: Is the Democratic Party perfect as it is? Do Corporate Democrats not exist?

Mind you, to me the definition of a Corporate Democrat is a politician who is more interested in serving the interests of corporations/donors than in serving the people.

Is there anyone in your view that could fit that description? Or is it simply impossible?

The good thing about democracy is that if millions of people rise up together and demand change, then change will happen !

The Democratic party will be no exception.

Bernie lost the race against Hillary in 2016, but if the movement ("Our Revolution") takes hold, then there will be nothing to stop it.
If the Democratic party leadership objects, then Bernie can start his own party, and if enough people vote for them, they will win.

Wait a minute. If a majority of members of the Democratic Party want the party to become more left-leaning or progressive instead of neoliberal, how could the leadership object to that? What makes you think that they would object to that? Could it be because they are actually Corporate Democrats and aren't really interested in what's best for the majority of the American people (especially the poor)? Is that what the superdelegates are for?

Besides, do you know how hard it is to set up a third party? Especially given the fact that all of the media is in the hands of just a few corporations (thanks to Bill Clinton's privatisation of the telecommunications market, one of the many Republican policy things he did). You've seen what happened during the Democratic primaries and what the DNC and media did to Sanders.

I think that Sanders wants to try and hold out for as long as he can to get the Democratic Party to change, and not run the risk of getting marginalized like Ralph Nader was. I'm not sure what he'll do if the Corporate Democrats prevail.

I do know what the Americans will do, who are being crushed by the system. They'll give an even bigger FU finger to what they consider to be the corrupt establishment: neocons and neoliberals, who have been declaring their mutual so openly lately.

Which brings me to this (sorry, off-topic):

At least Michelle Obama likes GWB! If someone told me ten years ago that POTUS in 2017 would be someone I detested more than W, I wouldn't have believed it.

You detest a vulgar reality show host more than a war criminal? Your memory must be failing you.

You know you can detest both, right? There is no need to legitimize one over the other. Neocons are pure evil, and so are their puppets.
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Neven

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Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
« Reply #548 on: October 29, 2017, 11:55:06 PM »
Speaking of puppets...

Obama was the most progressive president in modern history,

What did he do wrong to be called 'hypocritical' ?

I don't know where to start.

Sure, Obama was a nice man to look at, with great manners, and one of the best orators in the past century. He appeared to be the most progressive president in modern history, especially given the fact that he had so much support behind him that it seemed as if he was going to ride the wave of history, the perfect hand fate had dealt him to become the new FDR. But appearances can deceive.

and the first one to call out climate change as a real issue and actually do something about it (Keystone XL vote and Clean Power Plan).

Yes, and he also promoted an 'all of the above' energy policy, with fracking featuring prominently:


Obama's dirty secret: the fossil fuel projects the US littered around the world (Guardian)


At the very end of his second term did he finally rush a couple of things (5-year ban on Arctic drilling, coal mine ruling, etc), which were undone after a weeks or to be undone soon by Trump and his cronies. Keystone XL was no more than a symbolic gesture, and Obama even saw fit to berate environmentalists. But that wasn't as bad as his silence when a brutal police force bashed and humiliated peaceful activists at Standing Rock, who tried to stop DAPL.

But this is, of course, small change compared to the way he bailed out the banks (no wonder given the huge amount of campaign money he had received from Wall Street, and now he happily gives talks there). And instead of reducing the wars in the Middle East, he expanded them. Anyone care to Google 'Obama drones children'?

He pushed NAFTA and TPP, effectively reducing Hillary's chances of becoming president.

And there's more, so much more (like that video I posted of Michael Moore describing how Obama drank water in Flint, Michigan to declare all was okay). Obama had a chance to do something huge after 'yes, we can' and his message of hope. He didn't do it, because he was beholden to special interests and didn't have the courage to push and fight.

But his celebrity parties at the White House are said to be unparalleled.  ::)

Rob, please, wake up. Just like Fox News is brainwashing Republican voters, so is the rest of mainstream media force-feeding the establishment narrative to white-collar workers like you. If you agree that money has to be taken out of politics, you can't just close your eyes to what it has done so far and dismiss it as GOP/Kremlin propaganda.
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TerryM

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Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
« Reply #549 on: October 30, 2017, 12:02:33 AM »
Neven
I ran into another "Trump is worse than Bush jr." at a dinner last night.
This time uttered by a very left leaning retired magazine editor, who is a Mensa member. She left the States over the Vietnam war & has been in Canada ever since.


She had no answers when confronted with examples of GWB's torture chambers, war crimes, his murdering of innocents, or connections to Halliburton's transgressions, but wouldn't be swayed from her belief that Trump was much worse. Propaganda, particularly it seems, when utilizing modern media, is incredibly powerful.


If you believed in 2008, as most did, that Bush was a monster. You were correct, hold that thought. If in 2017 you find that "W" deserves another look, you're wrong. Trump's boorish idiocy doesn't trump Bush's blatant evil, and hopefully it never will.


While we look under our beds for Ruskies, the world continues to burn.


Terry