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Neven

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Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
« Reply #600 on: November 02, 2017, 09:31:34 PM »
This isn't an issue I am going to spend time on.

Great, then don't post in this thread.  ;D

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This is your war.....not mine.  I'm busy with trying....in a small way....to help save democracy in the US from the most corrupt and dangerous administration in US history that I am aware of.


You will save it by taking away the cause. This corrupt and dangerous administration is a symptom, a consequence of that cause. And the cause is money in politics, with both of the duopoly parties being dominated by corporate influence, making one of them extreme right and the other just plain right. There is no left anymore.

That's what's dangerous. The next Trump will be much, much worse.

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Lobbyists control many of the politicians here in the US.  I am much more concerned about policies that cut off...or at least reduce.....that flow of money from lobbyists and large doners.  For instance....repealing Citizens United....or reducing amounts of money that can be contributed in the first place.  In other words.....cutting off the oxygen that the lobbyists are giving to either Republicans or Democrats (corporate Republicans AND corporate Democrats...using your lingo).

I'm glad we agree.

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I always "triage" issues.  And right now....there is no bigger issue than trying to get Trump out of office.

I absolutely agree, but what will you replace him with? Republicans or Corporate Democrats? That's playing with fire.

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So if you are going to wage this jihad against "corporate democrats" (just as I wage my jihad against FOX News)....you should be able to explain WHO you are fighting....and why.


I've done this many times already, in this thread and elsewhere. The thing that is causing AGW (and a host of other global problems), is the same thing that has made it possible for Trump to become president. It's because concentrated wealth will use any means necessary to exponentially multiply itself, and for that it needs total control over the US political system. But this causes large segments of the American population to hurt economically, socially, health-wise, to the point that they vote for a monster like Trump.

If you think that replacing Trump with corporate lackeys (Republican or Democrat) is a solution, you will be sorely disappointed. And we can't afford anymore disappointments. It's all or nothing now. No more lesser-evil politics.

I've just watched two interesting videos tonight. The first talks about Donna Brazile revealing the corrupt ties between the DNC and the Hillary Clinton campaign (anyone who supported Bernie Sanders during the primaries must watch this and realize how he/she's been played):



Please, tell me it ain't so and that this just Russian/Republican propaganda. And also explain to me why Brazile comes with this now.

And here's another video from Jimmy Dore discussing recent developments with regards to setting up a third party:

The enemy is within
Don't confuse me with him

E. Smith

TerryM

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Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
« Reply #601 on: November 02, 2017, 09:35:39 PM »
Cory Booker is an interesting case. He backed off from pharma donations for a bit, after the last furore, lets see if he continues. At least the signal got thru to him. He will bear watching.

sidd
Leopards - Spots - Changing as we watch.


If Cory can now muster what it takes to campaign against the interests of Big Pharma, he'll gain credibility & votes. If the upswing is noticed it will encourage others to pull away from their sponsors/censors.


It seems as though the message is being heard.  :D
Terry

Neven

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Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
« Reply #602 on: November 02, 2017, 09:36:23 PM »
Cory Booker is an interesting case. He backed off from pharma donations for a bit, after the last furore, lets see if he continues. At least the signal got thru to him. He will bear watching.

Absolutely. Booker received a huge and unexpected backlash after voting against Bernie Sanders' proposal to import much cheaper drugs from Canada. I've seen footage of him defending his vote, and it was disgusting.

It will be interesting to see what he does when it really matters.

Holy shit. Donna Brazile throws Hilary and Wasserman-Schulz under the bus. How the corporate democrats play the game:

“That victory fund was supposed to be for whoever was the nominee, and the state party races. You’re telling me that Hillary has been controlling it since before she got the nomination?”

"The campaign had the DNC on life support, giving it money every month to meet its basic expenses, while the campaign was using the party as a fund-raising clearinghouse. Under FEC law, an individual can contribute a maximum of $2,700 directly to a presidential campaign. But the limits are much higher for contributions to state parties and a party’s national committee.

Individuals who had maxed out their $2,700 contribution limit to the campaign could write an additional check for $353,400 to the Hillary Victory Fund—that figure represented $10,000 to each of the 32 states’ parties who were part of the Victory Fund agreement—$320,000—and $33,400 to the DNC. The money would be deposited in the states first, and transferred to the DNC shortly after that. Money in the battleground states usually stayed in that state, but all the other states funneled that money directly to the DNC, which quickly transferred the money to Brooklyn."

https://www.politico.com/magazine/story/2017/11/02/clinton-brazile-hacks-2016-215774

http://www.boomantribune.com/?op=displaystory;sid=2017/11/2/114345/918

sidd

I just posted a video on that in my previous comment. I'm too tired to look into it now, but if anyone can point me to credible sources showing that this isn't what it seems, please tell me and I'll read it tomorrow.

How long are people going to continue to let themselves be deceived by this stuff, and then vote for the lesser evil? Fight for a real choice, Americans!
The enemy is within
Don't confuse me with him

E. Smith

sidd

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Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
« Reply #603 on: November 02, 2017, 10:18:18 PM »
I should say this story was broken in april 2016 already

https://www.counterpunch.org/2016/04/01/how-hillary-clinton-bought-the-loyalty-of-33-state-democratic-parties/

but was ignored by Hilary supporters, as Brazile says:

"Yet the states kept less than half of 1 percent of the $82 million they had amassed from the extravagant fund-raisers Hillary’s campaign was holding, just as Gary had described to me when he and I talked in August. When the Politico story described this arrangement as “essentially … money laundering” for the Clinton campaign, Hillary’s people were outraged at being accused of doing something shady. Bernie’s people were angry for their own reasons, saying this was part of a calculated strategy to throw the nomination to Hillary."

This helps to explain the staggering Democrat losses in state and local elections: the local precints were starving. My experience confirms from speaking with local precinct captains in ohio and PA. They locals were screaming for money and support, but state DNC couldn't help them since Hilary had sucked it up and wasn't releasing any. She didnt care about the locals in flyover country, she screwed them and blew the election.

The Saturday morning after the convention in July Brazile knew, but then took a vacation for a month in Martha's Vineyard ...

They want to do it again, hence the progressive purge in national DNC a little while ago. Brazile sees the walls closing in, she's trying to bail. I have a feeling it won't work, the knives are out on all sides for her.

sidd
« Last Edit: November 02, 2017, 10:23:31 PM by sidd »

AbruptSLR

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Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
« Reply #604 on: November 02, 2017, 10:46:36 PM »
Holy shit.  Bernie says that the GOP Congressional leadership has been unduly influenced by dark funding from the Citizens United Supreme Court decision to bring for a budget that enables tax cuts for the rich against the general public's will:

Title: "Bernie Sanders: Citizens United Decision Paid For GOP's Tax Cut For Billionaires"

https://www.realclearpolitics.com/video/2017/10/18/bernie_sanders_citizens_united_paid_for_gops_tax_cut_for_billionaires.html

Extract: "Via Reflect: Sen. Bernie Sanders cites polling statistics which show the majority of the American people do not favor cuts to social services to pay for tax cuts for billionaires.

"So then, the question arises -- Why is the Republican leadership bringing forward a budget that does the exact opposite of what the American people want? The answer to that question. I am sorry to say, is not complicated," he said. "It has everything to do with a corrupt campaign finance system that allows billionaires, and the wealthiest people in this country, to exert their influence over the political process."

"Increasingly, it is not the ordinary American --the middle-class worker-- who Congress listens to, but wealthy campaign contributors," Sanders said.

"Today we have a corrupt campaign finance system that enables multi-billionaires, along with the most powerful CEOs in America to contribute many hundreds of millions of dollars into the political process."

"Many of us believe that the concept of democracy is one person, one vote... majority wins. That is what we teach the children in the fifth grade... but unfortunately as a result of the disastrous Citizens united Supreme Court decision, the American political finance system has been completely corrupted," he added."
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sidd

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Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
« Reply #605 on: November 02, 2017, 11:00:10 PM »
While I agree with Bernie on Citizen's United, I fail to see what it has to do with breaking corporate stranglehold on Democratic party ?

sidd

AbruptSLR

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Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
« Reply #606 on: November 02, 2017, 11:13:32 PM »
While I agree with Bernie on Citizen's United, I fail to see what it has to do with breaking corporate stranglehold on Democratic party ?

sidd

People like to point at how much corporate donations Hillary and other 'corporate democrats' received, but they tend to ignore the fact that the Democratic Party does not only fight against the RNC funding and the Republican candidate campaign financing, but they also have to fight against billions of dollars of dark money (largely from GOP billionaires) resulting from Citizens United.   Until such Supreme Court rulings are changed, the US political system is going to be distorted (including undue corporate influence on the DNC).

Edit: Not to mention that the Democrats apparently also have to fight against dark money coming from Russia these days.
« Last Edit: November 02, 2017, 11:20:43 PM by AbruptSLR »
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sidd

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Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
« Reply #607 on: November 02, 2017, 11:46:41 PM »
Agreed on repealing Citizen's United. Where we differ is that i argue

1) the sellout of the democrats to corporates caused em to lose
2) that loss directly put another conservative supreme in
3) making repeal of citizen's united more difficult
4) democrats will not win until they reject corporate control

In other news, the Brazile revelation has state level donors hopping mad. They thought they were supporting local campaigns, while all the money was going to hilary. I've already heard from two sherrod brown supporters that this time around they dont trust the party to get the money to sherrod. This is going to hurt funding.

sidd

AbruptSLR

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Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
« Reply #608 on: November 03, 2017, 01:36:28 AM »
As Hillary is most likely not going to run again, maybe the Democratic establishment see no downside in painter her as a money grubber (see extract below).  However, ask yourself why was the DNC so starved of money that they would form a joint fundraising committee, JFC, with Hillary's campaign and who in 2020 is going to provide the DNC with funding.

https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/politics/donna-brazile%e2%80%99s-bombshell-about-the-dnc-and-hillary-clinton-explained/ar-AAun9Hc?ocid=spartandhp

Extract: "This is one way to read Brazile’s revelation: as yet another sign that the Democratic establishment is trying to incorporate Sanders and his movement, by publicly distancing itself from those who allegedly tipped the scales of the primary away from him."
“It is not the strongest or the most intelligent who will survive but those who can best manage change.”
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Rob Dekker

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Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
« Reply #609 on: November 03, 2017, 03:25:32 AM »
But the reason that the Democratic Party has been wiped out, isn't because of the Republican Party, but because it simply isn't the party of the people anymore. The Republicans just capitalize on this fact. In other words, the Democratic Party is itself responsible for the success of Republican propaganda.

First of all, the Democratic Party is not "wiped out".
Clinton obtained a whopping 3 million more votes than Trump did.
And, I have to check the numbers on this, but Republican dominance in the House (and the split margin majority in the Senate) were obtained by Gerrymandering.
The Popular vote is still Democratic.

Second, regarding the "Republican propaganda" I think you have it backward :
It is BECAUSE of intense Republican propaganda (via many media methods) that many started to believe that the Democratic party was no longer the party of the people.
Apparently it worked, because even you believe that.

Trump perfected that narrative, since he managed to present Democrats as 'elite' while he himself takes a s**t on a golden toilet.

Democrats are still the party of the people, and their voting record attests to that (maybe with the exception of a few, which I listed in the Keystone XL test).
« Last Edit: November 03, 2017, 03:37:57 AM by Rob Dekker »
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Rob Dekker

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Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
« Reply #610 on: November 03, 2017, 04:32:00 AM »
I've just watched two interesting videos tonight. The first talks about Donna Brazile revealing the corrupt ties between the DNC and the Hillary Clinton campaign (anyone who supported Bernie Sanders during the primaries must watch this and realize how he/she's been played):

Look. I'm totally a Bernie supporter. I maxed out on campaign contribution to him.
But this video is just not getting it.

Let's suppose that all that Brazile said is true.
That Obama left the DNC funds in debt, and that Hillary was "controlling" the DNC by providing funds to the DNC from the Hillary Victory Fund. And that's why Bernie lost the primaries.

To me, that sounds like an afterthought.
Nobody knew about this "scheme" until now. That's assuming it is true.

So unless somebody can put forward a clear reason why Bernie lost the primaries BECAUSE of this alleged scheme, I'm not willing to accept it as important in the 2016 elections.

Bernie raised enough money to go around, thank you. He did this mostly from small donations (except for me).
He did his best, and he got very far. But not far enough.

I still think MSM did not give him enough attention as compared to Hillary, (and certainly not as much attention as MSM gave to Trump) which may or may not have made a difference.
But he gave it his best shot, and got very far (from coming out of nowhere).
Next time, I think he (or some younger progressive) will have a much better chance.

The key is to bring people together.
Not try and shoot down some (unspecified individuals) in the Democratic party.
« Last Edit: November 03, 2017, 05:22:12 AM by Rob Dekker »
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sidd

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Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
« Reply #611 on: November 03, 2017, 04:47:41 AM »
"And that's why Bernie lost the primaries."

That may or may not be true. I think a major reason he lost the primaries was not because he was short of funding but because she locked up the superdelegates.

But that is not the important issue: that Hilary starved the states and thereby lost those local elections. That was a huge error, as big as those that led to her defeat in the presidential election. Now, the Republicans are just three or four states away from calling a constitutional convention.

As for funding going forward, the DNC will be even more starved as the local donors go directly to the candidates they support and stuff cash directly in their pockets, cutting the democratic party out of the deal.

Lets see what the primaries bring, and how the DNC and democrat state parties level react. I am sure the DNC phones are burning up with calls from outraged donors.

sidd

Rob Dekker

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Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
« Reply #612 on: November 03, 2017, 05:30:44 AM »
"And that's why Bernie lost the primaries."

That may or may not be true. I think a major reason he lost the primaries was not because he was short of funding but because she locked up the superdelegates.

Superdelegates, even though they mostly preferred Hillary, had nothing to do with the final outcome of the primaries.
Bernie lost to Hillary even though he came close. Plain and simple.

Quote
But that is not the important issue: that Hilary starved the states and thereby lost those local elections. That was a huge error, as big as those that led to her defeat in the presidential election.

That does not make any sense to me.
How did Hillary "starved the states" ?
What does that even mean, knowing that Bernie was doing his own fundraising ?
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sidd

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Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
« Reply #613 on: November 03, 2017, 05:39:52 AM »
Hilary refused money to the state level candidates. I have posted this link already, please read it.

"Yet the states kept less than half of 1 percent of the $82 million they had amassed ... "

"The agreement—signed by Amy Dacey, the former CEO of the DNC, and Robby Mook with a copy to Marc Elias—specified that in exchange for raising money and investing in the DNC, Hillary would control the party’s finances, strategy, and all the money raised. Her campaign had the right of refusal of who would be the party communications director, and it would make final decisions on all the other staff. The DNC also was required to consult with the campaign about all other staffing, budgeting, data, analytics, and mailings."

The locals were screaming for help, Hilary screwed them. As a result, democrats lost in local, state and national level.

https://www.politico.com/magazine/story/2017/11/02/clinton-brazile-hacks-2016-215774

sidd

Rob Dekker

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Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
« Reply #614 on: November 03, 2017, 05:42:28 AM »
Sidd, we were talking about the primaries.
So what do your assertions even mean, knowing that Bernie was doing his own fundraising ?
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sidd

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Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
« Reply #615 on: November 03, 2017, 05:45:15 AM »
I am not talking about Bernie. I am talking about local and state, and yes, national level democratic candidates who were starved by the party, because, guess what, the party had done a deal with Hilary to send all the money straight to the Clinton campaign.

sidd
« Last Edit: November 03, 2017, 05:52:17 AM by sidd »

Rob Dekker

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Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
« Reply #616 on: November 03, 2017, 05:52:19 AM »
It seems that you (sidd and Neven) want to smear the DNC and Hillary as much as you can.

But seriously, it doesn't matter at all what the DNC did, and for this reason :

During the primaries, Bernie was running his own campaign and fund raising.
Yet he lost (not by much though).

During the presidential elections, to be successful Hillary and the DNC should "send all the money straight to the Clinton campaign.". Or do you suggest she did sabotage her own campaign ?
« Last Edit: November 03, 2017, 06:22:02 AM by Rob Dekker »
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sidd

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Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
« Reply #617 on: November 03, 2017, 05:56:55 AM »
She didnt sabotage her own campaign. Just the rank and file state, local candidates. She controlled the money, the states got back 1/2 of one percent of what they raised. I know precinct captains that couldn't get sure democrat votes to the polls because the party wouldn't give em any money. I wasn't sure how widespread this was, but now i see that it was nationwide.

sidd


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Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
« Reply #618 on: November 03, 2017, 06:01:03 AM »
Here is another for the warmonger list: Steny Hoyer

" ... House Democrats are being urged by Congressman Hoyer’s office not to sign on to H.Con.Res.81 ... "

He wants to keep bombing Yemen and he succeeded.

https://theintercept.com/2017/10/31/yemen-war-us-military-house-resolution/

http://news.antiwar.com/2017/11/01/house-rules-committee-guts-challenge-to-yemen-war-legality/

Anybody primarying this warmonger ?

sidd

Rob Dekker

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Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
« Reply #619 on: November 03, 2017, 06:01:09 AM »
She didnt sabotage her own campaign. Just the rank and file state, local candidates. She controlled the money, the states got back 1/2 of one percent of what they raised. I know precinct captains that couldn't get sure democrat votes to the polls because the party wouldn't give em any money. I wasn't sure how widespread this was, but now i see that it was nationwide.

sidd

I really don't see what you are getting to here, sidd.
Are you suggesting that Hillary removed money from the states to benefit her presidential election campaign ?
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Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
« Reply #620 on: November 03, 2017, 06:49:12 AM »
Rob, you may draw your own conclusions. I will merely remark she got 80+ million US$ with full throated support from statelevel democratic party organizations, returned 400K, roughly 8K per state. Out of a billon dollar campaign, she couldn't even spare loose change. She lost anyway and the democratic party lost huge in return for the many bargains with various devils they had made.

Now the democratic party has a loooong row to hoe. With this fundraising problem, the party structure will wither. Local donors will go to local candidates directly, cut the democratic party structure out. I am seeing this today.

This might be a good thing. Local crowdfunding, I like it.

I have remarked before that the trump presidency marked the end of the traditional republican party and that the Hilary loss might mark transition in the democratic party also.

We shall see.

sidd

Rob Dekker

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Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
« Reply #621 on: November 03, 2017, 07:04:34 AM »
Rob, you may draw your own conclusions. I will merely remark she got 80+ million US$ with full throated support from statelevel democratic party organizations, returned 400K, roughly 8K per state. Out of a billon dollar campaign, she couldn't even spare loose change. She lost anyway and the democratic party lost huge in return for the many bargains with various devils they had made.

You totally lost me.

Where did you get that $80 million number from ? And where did you get that $400 k number from ? and where did you get the $1 billion number from ?

Not to mention that you don't explain the "bargains with various devils they had made".
 
Just tossing numbers and empty allegations around without stating context or any reference is not very convincing, sidd.
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Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
« Reply #622 on: November 03, 2017, 07:21:55 AM »
For the third time i ask you to read the link i posted. I have included quotes from it regarding the 82 million dollars and the 1/2 percent return to the states, and i trust you know the number of states in the USA. As for total expenditure for Hilary 2016, you may find it yourself.

sidd


Rob Dekker

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Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
« Reply #623 on: November 03, 2017, 07:23:57 AM »
Here is another for the warmonger list: Steny Hoyer

" ... House Democrats are being urged by Congressman Hoyer’s office not to sign on to H.Con.Res.81 ... "

He wants to keep bombing Yemen and he succeeded.

Sounds like propaganda to me.
From the House web site :
https://khanna.house.gov/media/press-releases/release-rep-khanna-wins-debate-us-involvement-yemen-and-strikes-compromise

Quote
The resolution debate and vote is expected the week of November 13, 2017.

which is about two weeks from now.
« Last Edit: November 03, 2017, 07:41:42 AM by Rob Dekker »
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Rob Dekker

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Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
« Reply #624 on: November 03, 2017, 07:29:46 AM »
For the third time i ask you to read the link i posted. I have included quotes from it regarding the 82 million dollars and the 1/2 percent return to the states, and i trust you know the number of states in the USA. As for total expenditure for Hilary 2016, you may find it yourself.

sidd

Sidd, you got me even more confused now.
Here is the key excerpt from your link (start of the article) :

Quote
I had promised Bernie when I took the helm of the Democratic National Committee after the convention that I would get to the bottom of whether Hillary Clinton’s team had rigged the nomination process, as a cache of emails stolen by Russian hackers and posted online had suggested.

So how can this NOT be about Bernie (and the primaries) ?

Yet you claim :

Quote
I am not talking about Bernie. I am talking about local and state, and yes, national level democratic candidates who were starved by the party.....

Please clarify what you point is exactly.
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sidd

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Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
« Reply #625 on: November 03, 2017, 07:46:33 AM »
Khanna did a deal. They forced a change of privilege thru :

"  .. House leadership quickly forced through a Rules Committee vote which changed the rules on H.Con.Res. 81, stripping it of its privileged status (which would have guaranteed a floor vote). "

http://news.antiwar.com/2017/11/01/house-rules-committee-guts-challenge-to-yemen-war-legality/

no vote. the whole idea was making the warmongers identify themselves.

From Khannas statement:

"I’m disappointed that H.CON.RES.81 will lose its privileged status and not come to the floor for a vote ... "

I am disappointed in Khanna. Anyone primarying him ?

And in other news, I see our Yemen bomber Steny has a primary challenger:

"Kristin Beck, a former Navy SEAL who rose to prominence for speaking out about her experiences as a transgender woman ... "

https://www.huffingtonpost.com/2015/02/12/kristin-beck_n_6673744.html

Cool.

sidd

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Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
« Reply #626 on: November 03, 2017, 08:14:29 AM »
"Here is the key excerpt from your link (start of the article) "

Perhaps one ought to read further than the first two sentences of the article.

Even given that Dona Brazile is a liar on the question of leaking debate questions to Hilary, she claims that a document exists that:

"The agreement—signed by Amy Dacey, the former CEO of the DNC, and Robby Mook with a copy to Marc Elias—specified that in exchange for raising money and investing in the DNC, Hillary would control the party’s finances, strategy, and all the money raised."

So, Hilary controlled all the money raised. So she took it. And gave back less than 10K per state.

I have not heard a peep outta democratic party saying this agreement is a lie yet or the numbers are wrong.

This, I repeat, has nothing to do with Sanders.

sidd

Rob Dekker

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Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
« Reply #627 on: November 03, 2017, 08:34:53 AM »
Khanna did a deal. They forced a change of privilege thru :

"  .. House leadership quickly forced through a Rules Committee vote which changed the rules on H.Con.Res. 81, stripping it of its privileged status (which would have guaranteed a floor vote). "

http://news.antiwar.com/2017/11/01/house-rules-committee-guts-challenge-to-yemen-war-legality/

no vote. the whole idea was making the warmongers identify themselves.

So who were these warmongers ?
List names please, because neither of your links does so.

As for Hoyer, I'm not sure why he does not want to cosponsor the bill, but this is interesting (from your intercept link) :

Quote
Even as Hoyer works to dissuade lawmakers to cosponsor the resolution, he is also trying to avoid a special Rules Committee decision by House Republicans that would effectively kill the legislation before it receives a vote,

Which begs the question of who exactly killed that bill.
« Last Edit: November 03, 2017, 09:10:00 AM by Rob Dekker »
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Rob Dekker

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Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
« Reply #628 on: November 03, 2017, 08:50:54 AM »
"Here is the key excerpt from your link (start of the article) "

Perhaps one ought to read further than the first two sentences of the article.

Even given that Dona Brazile is a liar on the question of leaking debate questions to Hilary, she claims that a document exists that:

"The agreement—signed by Amy Dacey, the former CEO of the DNC, and Robby Mook with a copy to Marc Elias—specified that in exchange for raising money and investing in the DNC, Hillary would control the party’s finances, strategy, and all the money raised."

So, Hilary controlled all the money raised. So she took it. And gave back less than 10K per state.

I have not heard a peep outta democratic party saying this agreement is a lie yet or the numbers are wrong.

This, I repeat, has nothing to do with Sanders.

sidd

OK. Take a deep breath.
Suppose all of that is true or even worse that Clinton took ALL the money that was donated to the DNC during the presidential elections.

If the state and local representatives would have thought that was unfair, and that they deserved some of that money, I would expect that they would have spoken up.
They did not, which suggests to me that probably the story is a bit more complex than you present it to be. Probably it did not happen this way.

But even if it did, your comment is only about the presidential elections. Not the primaries. And Clinton lost the presidential elections.

So all this money did not matter in the end. So why are we even talking about this ?
« Last Edit: November 03, 2017, 09:00:18 AM by Rob Dekker »
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jai mitchell

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Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
« Reply #629 on: November 03, 2017, 03:19:28 PM »

So all this money did not matter in the end. So why are we even talking about this ?

man, this information must really hurt you.

Ok, how about this.

The reason that the DNC was bankrupt was because Obama and Debbie Wasserman Schultz kept their high-payed consultant and lobbyist friends on the payroll during non-election cycle years. (its in the article)

They intentionally bankrupted the DNC and the following is why.

They agreed after the 2008 election that after Obama was term limited that Hillary would be the nominee.

They then signed an agreement that gave complete control of all spending, fundraising, staffing and communications to the the Hillary Clinton Campaign in August 2015, fully 6 months before the first state primary.

The result of their agreement was that they put the DNC on a starvation diet, with monthly stipends, funneled 99.5% of state-level funding to their organization and produced the most biased, unfair and corrupt primary election in this nation's history.

The result of these total actions produced such an obvious mistaste of the candidate in the mouths of the 40 and under electorate, as well as the well documented distrust from the traditional DNC base of organized labor members, that she lost an election that ANY democratic party presidential candidate in the HISTORY of presidential candidates would have won.

We could have had a president Bernie Sanders and he would have pushed the climate emergency to the forefront, with the U.S. leading the entire world into a rapid mobilization to get off of fossil fuels and restore a safe, late Holocene climate.

In the end, the delay in emissions reductions that have resulted from the DNC corruption of the power elites, as well as their secondary impacts on state-level races (a TOTAL washout - giving the Senate to the Republicans - which also gave them 6 votes on the Supreme Court) may have ACTUALLY DOOMED humanity to >4C of globally averaged warming.

THAT is why we are talking about this.
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Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
« Reply #630 on: November 03, 2017, 03:19:38 PM »
I'm pleased to see reports that the DNC and Hillary partnered to prevent a non Democrat from ascending to the Democratic Party nomination.  I remain disappointed that both the DNC and Hillary failed to do more, and did not engage even harsher and fiercer tactics.  But that's one of Hillary's main weaknesses, always too cautious.  The DNC and Dem party is just not a good fit or home for Bernie and his Leftist Bros.  A third party free of evil Corp Dems is the answer, and I fully encourage it to happen.

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Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
« Reply #631 on: November 03, 2017, 06:07:26 PM »
The big lesson that the Democrats have learned from last year's election loss is to listen better to what real people think, rather than to their own pre-conceived notions:

Title: "One year later, Democrats try to use painful lessons of 2016 to guide future campaigns"

http://www.latimes.com/politics/la-na-pol-clinton-reflect-20171103-story.html

Extract: "Democrats are pivoting their strategies as research from the center and others shows that the white, working-class vote is larger and more influential than the party’s operatives seemed to accept during the campaign. Whites without a college education made up 45% of the vote last year, the center’s analysis estimates, a considerably larger share than indicated by exit polls.

Many Democratic activists “don’t get that this is still in very important ways a white, non-college country,” said Ruy Teixeira, one of the study’s authors. Progressive operatives tend to live in areas where most people have gone to college, he noted.

“Geographic segregation really skews people’s perceptions of the country they live in,” he said.

Democrats are quick to point out now that Republicans control everything in Washington, hoping that voters’ continued anti-establishment fervor will be the GOP’s problem now.

But last year’s election made clear that exploiting the desire for change requires a different playbook, one that involves paying more attention to what voters are thinking, instead of what a computer model predicts they should think.

It’s a point not lost on EMILY’s List, the fundraising behemoth for liberal women in politics, where president Stephanie Schriock is trying to apply the lessons learned from last year into mobilizing the record 20,000 women who have sought the group’s guidance and resources since Trump’s victory.

“There’s a real commitment to better figuring out where people are,” she said."
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Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
« Reply #632 on: November 03, 2017, 08:36:46 PM »
"The big lesson that the Democrats have learned from last year's election loss is to listen better to what real people think, rather than to their own pre-conceived notions"

But have they, really?? I guess time will tell, but I haven't seen much sign of that from the DNC's actions myself. I do hope they have, or do in time for the next election!
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Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
« Reply #633 on: November 03, 2017, 08:51:52 PM »
"I'm pleased disappointed to see reports that the DNC and Hillary partnered Bernie failed to prevent a non Democrat Republican in everything but name Hillaryfrom ascending to the Democratic Party nomination."

Fixed that for ya, p!  ;D ;D
"A force de chercher de bonnes raisons, on en trouve; on les dit; et après on y tient, non pas tant parce qu'elles sont bonnes que pour ne pas se démentir." Choderlos de Laclos "You struggle to come up with some valid reasons, then cling to them, not because they're good, but just to not back down."

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Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
« Reply #634 on: November 03, 2017, 10:03:43 PM »
"The big lesson that the Democrats have learned from last year's election loss is to listen better to what real people think, rather than to their own pre-conceived notions"

But have they, really?? I guess time will tell, but I haven't seen much sign of that from the DNC's actions myself. I do hope they have, or do in time for the next election!

These are the issues that the Democrats need to focus on:

Title: "Americans Hitting Existential Crisis, Climate Change One Factor Stressing People Out"

https://cleantechnica.com/2017/11/03/americans-existential-crisis-climate-change-one-factor-stressing-people/

Extract: "Americans are worried. An online survey conducted by Harris Polls for the American Psychological Association in August finds 63% are concerned about the future of the country. Climate change is one thing keeping Americans awake at night.

This is the 11th year the survey has been conducted. Other things on the minds of those who took the poll are money (62%) and work-related issues (61%). More than half (59%) told the pollsters “they consider this to to be the lowest point in our nation’s history that they can remember.” The survey included World War II and Vietnam veterans as well as those who lived through the September 11 tragedy."
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Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
« Reply #635 on: November 03, 2017, 10:58:22 PM »
"The big lesson that the Democrats have learned from last year's election loss is to listen better to what real people think, rather than to their own pre-conceived notions"

But have they, really?? I guess time will tell, but I haven't seen much sign of that from the DNC's actions myself. I do hope they have, or do in time for the next election!


Donna Brazile's rather self serving diatribe undoubtedly contains many elements of truth. Not enough to revive Brazile's career as a DNC insider, nor as a journalistic pundit, but possibly enough to keep the Gendarme's from her door.


sidd's link to Politico contains the full text of her screed, and that's what I'll be using as a reference.


Usually I feel a huge empathy for whistleblowers, regardless of the content of their exposures. For whatever reason, this one leaves leaves me cold, and perhaps this is why I'm leery of leaning too heavily on the props she's providing.


E-Mail hacked or leaked?
She twice refers to the DNC's e-mails as having been hacked, then twice she refers to them as having been leaked. In one instance she refers to hacked e-mails, then in the very next sentence refers to the same missives as having been leaked.
This wasn't an error, it jumps off the page.


What message is dear Donna trying to convey?
She's certainly signalling that she knows absolutely nothing about whether the e-mails were hacked or leaked. She certainly signaled that asking her under oath about the possibility of the e-mails being leaked, wouldn't shine any light in that dark & dingy corner.
For this reason alone I'd like to see her deposed and asked about every aspect of how those e-mails ended at Assange's site, 3 days prior to the DNC's Convention.

Donna's Broken Hearted Melody.
By the time of Donna's September 7 call to Bernie, (We're all on a first name basis now, right?), she had already found her "proof", and it "broke her heart".
All this skulduggery had occurred under the watch of the "not a good manager, Debbie". Note now that this skulduggery has nothing to do with passing questions to Hillary, to the detriment of Bernie. That was a separate piece of skulduggery unmentioned here by it's perpetrator, our own dear Donna.


I'd submit that Donna knew very well what her candidate Hillary had done to the DNC, in part because placing Donna as "interim director" after Debbie's ouster was a huge F... You to Bernie and all of his followers. This was after all the woman who had attempted to "fix" the town hall meetings against Bernie.


This is getting far too long, so I'll drop it, but as I see it, Donna is simply validating everything that Wikileaks published so long ago. Those files so well secreted away that they were hidden behind the password, "password", and guarded by the Patriotic Awan family.


Terry
« Last Edit: November 03, 2017, 11:03:24 PM by TerryM »

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Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
« Reply #636 on: November 03, 2017, 11:04:02 PM »
Forget the presidency for the moment. Starvation of state level party apparatus caused the democrats to lose
state level seats, which control election map gerrymandering and a host of other legislation:

"In November, the party lost control of state legislatures in Iowa, Minnesota, and Kentucky. The state senate in Connecticut, which had been firmly blue, is now evenly split. Republicans ousted Democratic governors in Missouri, New Hampshire, and Vermont. All told, Democrats surrendered about 30 seats in state legislatures. They now hold majorities in just 31 of the country’s 98 legislative bodies, and only 15 of the nation’s governors are Democrats. "

https://newrepublic.com/article/138897/democrats-biggest-disaster

The lack of support for state level elections led to this result.

sidd
« Last Edit: November 03, 2017, 11:09:22 PM by sidd »

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Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
« Reply #637 on: November 04, 2017, 02:21:44 AM »
Looks like the resident conspiracy theorists got fished in again.  The DNC agreement was for the general only.  Poor Bernie lost because Dems didn’t vote for him.

https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/elections/memo-reveals-details-hillary-clinton-dnc-deal-n817411

“Nothing in this agreement shall be construed to violate the DNC's obligation of impartiality and neutrality through the Nominating process. All activities performed under this agreement will be focused exclusively on preparations for the General Election and not the Democratic Primary," the memo states.

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Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
« Reply #638 on: November 04, 2017, 03:06:07 AM »
Looks like the resident conspiracy theorists got fished in again.  The DNC agreement was for the general only.  Poor Bernie lost because Dems didn’t vote for him.

https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/elections/memo-reveals-details-hillary-clinton-dnc-deal-n817411

“Nothing in this agreement shall be construed to violate the DNC's obligation of impartiality and neutrality through the Nominating process. All activities performed under this agreement will be focused exclusively on preparations for the General Election and not the Democratic Primary," the memo states.


Did John Yoo have a hand in writing that disclaimer? Or is it a boilerplate?
Terry

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Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
« Reply #639 on: November 04, 2017, 03:21:01 AM »
Looks like the resident conspiracy theorists got fished in again.  The DNC agreement was for the general only.  Poor Bernie lost because Dems didn’t vote for him.

https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/elections/memo-reveals-details-hillary-clinton-dnc-deal-n817411

“Nothing in this agreement shall be construed to violate the DNC's obligation of impartiality and neutrality through the Nominating process. All activities performed under this agreement will be focused exclusively on preparations for the General Election and not the Democratic Primary," the memo states.

Thank you pileus, for setting the record straight.

I'm a big Bernie supporter, but the truth is that he lost the primaries because he did not get as many votes as Hillary did. He came close though.. Which is encouraging for the next elections.
And remember that his message was to "bring people together". NOT divide them as Brazile does.

First we had the "Uranium One" fake scandal, then the "Dossier financing" fake scandal and now the "DNC - Hillary" fake scandal.

The thing that bothers me is why these fake scandals about Hillary are showing up exactly NOW ?
« Last Edit: November 04, 2017, 04:30:45 AM by Rob Dekker »
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Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
« Reply #640 on: November 04, 2017, 08:23:43 AM »
Ok, how about this.

The reason that the DNC was bankrupt was because Obama and Debbie Wasserman Schultz kept their high-payed consultant and lobbyist friends on the payroll during non-election cycle years. (its in the article)...

bla bla bla one things leads to the next...

...which also gave them 6 votes on the Supreme Court) may have ACTUALLY DOOMED humanity to >4C of globally averaged warming.

THAT is why we are talking about this.

Thank you jai for a beautiful deduction. Very funny.
« Last Edit: November 04, 2017, 08:35:59 AM by Rob Dekker »
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Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
« Reply #641 on: November 04, 2017, 09:58:53 AM »
First we had the "Uranium One" fake scandal, then the "Dossier financing" fake scandal and now the "DNC - Hillary" fake scandal.

The thing that bothers me is why these fake scandals about Hillary are showing up exactly NOW ?

Aside from the discussion whether these scandals are fake (or whether they are perceived as such by a majority of the population), I'm also wondering about why Brazile breaks ranks. It's rather obvious where Uranium One (pay for play), the Steele Dossier (collusion with Russian government officials) and the Podesta-Ukraine report (left, right, we don't care) came from. Team Trump must have had something to do with that, using Clinton's corruption to distract from their corruption (and vice versa).

But why is Brazile coming out with this now? Is it just to promote her book sales (in that case, give everyone a book deal)? Or is she trying to disassociate herself from the rampant corruption in the DNC, seeing where it's all heading? Or does she somehow get something in return from Team Trump?

Very strange...

Either way, all those grains of truth should be starting to pile up. Except for those who have their eyes and ears shut. Imagine donating a lot of money to Sanders and then find out later that the primary was completely rigged. It's theft, pure and simple.
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Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
« Reply #642 on: November 04, 2017, 03:04:53 PM »
Either way, all those grains of truth should be starting to pile up. Except for those who have their eyes and ears shut. Imagine donating a lot of money to Sanders and then find out later that the primary was completely rigged. It's theft, pure and simple.

Neven,

Your definition of 'rigged' seems to be that you think that if one donates money and doesn't get what one wants then the system is 'rigged' just like Trump taught us all, and just as all the billionaire GOP donors are complaining about where are all the tax breaks that they paid for.

Political parties are not part of the part of the government, pileus pointed-out the legal agreement that the DNC made with Team Hillary was only for the General Election and not the primaries.

Personally, I think that the US two-party system is contributing to the division of the population, and maybe Bernie should run at the head of a third party.

Best,
ASLR
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Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
« Reply #643 on: November 04, 2017, 07:05:26 PM »
First we had the "Uranium One" fake scandal, then the "Dossier financing" fake scandal and now the "DNC - Hillary" fake scandal.

The thing that bothers me is why these fake scandals about Hillary are showing up exactly NOW ?

Aside from the discussion whether these scandals are fake (or whether they are perceived as such by a majority of the population), I'm also wondering about why Brazile breaks ranks. It's rather obvious where Uranium One (pay for play), the Steele Dossier (collusion with Russian government officials) and the Podesta-Ukraine report (left, right, we don't care) came from. Team Trump must have had something to do with that, using Clinton's corruption to distract from their corruption (and vice versa).

But why is Brazile coming out with this now? Is it just to promote her book sales (in that case, give everyone a book deal)? Or is she trying to disassociate herself from the rampant corruption in the DNC, seeing where it's all heading? Or does she somehow get something in return from Team Trump?

Very strange...

Either way, all those grains of truth should be starting to pile up. Except for those who have their eyes and ears shut. Imagine donating a lot of money to Sanders and then find out later that the primary was completely rigged. It's theft, pure and simple.
My guess is that Brazile is doing a preemptive "She a Culpa" in an attempt to forestall the coming "You a Culpa" that is/was in the works. She may have been advised that by breaking the story first, and blaming everyone at the DNC except herself, her own complicity would be overlooked.


While I don't believe the tactic will work in this instance because there is too much evidence of Brazile feeding Clinton the questions to be asked during "town hall" debates with Saunders. It may serve to shine the spotlight on Clinton and Schultz for a short time.


It's an ill wind that blows nobody any good, and the Justice Democrats are seeing donations increase by "$2,500 per hour since Politico's piece emerged.


http://freebeacon.com/politics/bernie-aligned-group-corruption-that-plagues-the-democratic-party-is-bigger-than-one-primary/


Apparently Elisabeth Warren on CNN concurs that "the DNC was rigged in Clinton's favor"


https://twitter.com/TheLeadCNN/status/926189366426431488


Terry

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Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
« Reply #644 on: November 04, 2017, 09:46:13 PM »
Your definition of 'rigged' seems to be that you think that if one donates money and doesn't get what one wants then the system is 'rigged'

No, my definition of 'rigged' is 'rigged'. Are you actually trying to defend the position that the DNC primary wasn't rigged in Hillary Clinton's favour? Why on Earth would you do that? Why is it so hard to call a spade a spade?

Do you guys really not see the huge problem the Democratic Party has?
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Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
« Reply #645 on: November 04, 2017, 10:25:21 PM »
Good political commentator being interviewed here:



Final part (just before that some interesting stuff about Obama too pledging to drain the swamp in 2008, but of course, doing nothing):

Quote
AARON MATÉ:   Bill, finally, as we wrap, in terms of the prospects for reforming the DNC, this is just the latest revelation about the DNC to stoke outrage amongst the base. Who and what are the main forces standing in the way of meaningful change inside the Democratic party?
BILL CURRY: Well, almost everyone profiting from the current status quo. Far too much of the institution leadership, including people with whom I've been allied, and will be proud to be allied in the future, on many issues, but the fix wasn't just in at the DNC. The one thing that the Clinton defenders say that's true was that the DNC would have been hard-pressed to have this much influence.

We should begin, as progressives, we should remember that in all the years in which the progressives and the Democratic party had a more arm's length relationship, it strengthened both. It gave the Democratic party a spine, and somewhat of a vision, and it kept the progressives from being mortgaged to the status quo.

If there's one thing I can say to progressives, the good thing here is that there are movements that move on and resist, and Our Revolution, and the Democracy for America, the Working Families party, there is a virtual Democratic party taking shape, and the old Democratic party, the Pelosi and Schumer Democratic party, the DCCC and DNC Democratic party, all I can say is, don't give those people a nickel, and let the forces of change...

There are people coming into this system. Support the candidates, support the causes, and above all, decide not just who you're for, but what you're for, and press your own people hard to get them to commit to it. At some point ... That system won't reform itself. It will only change ... Every revolution is about personnel, and until you get rid of these people, I don't think there will be meaningful change. I don't think they know any better.

Decide not just who you're for, but what you're for.
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AbruptSLR

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Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
« Reply #646 on: November 04, 2017, 11:05:42 PM »
I guess that we will see whether the DNC actually makes rule changes that make the process more transparent:

Title: "DNC leaders call for rules reform after 2016 primary revelations"

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/powerpost/wp/2017/11/03/dnc-leaders-call-for-rules-reform-after-2016-primary-revelations/?utm_term=.69fa4f03b163

Extract: "In his statement, released separately from Perez’s, Ellison did not get into the weeds of the 2015 arrangement. But he did call specifically for the DNC to change its rules to specify that no future campaign could get a favorable JFA.

“We must heed the call for our party to enact real reforms that ensure a fair, open and impartial nominating process in elections to come,” Ellison said. “I’m committed to working with Chairman Perez to make the DNC more transparent and accountable to the American people, whether that’s by ensuring that debates are scheduled far ahead of time or by guaranteeing that the terms of joint fundraising agreements give no candidate undue control or influence over the party.”"
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Rob Dekker

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Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
« Reply #647 on: November 05, 2017, 05:28:29 AM »
No, my definition of 'rigged' is 'rigged'. Are you actually trying to defend the position that the DNC primary wasn't rigged in Hillary Clinton's favour? Why on Earth would you do that? Why is it so hard to call a spade a spade?

Do you guys really not see the huge problem the Democratic Party has?

I'm with AbruptSLR and pileus on this one.
In my view 'rigged' means that the outcome was pre-determined by this action.
And there is ZERO evidence that this arrangement between the Hillary campaign and the DNC affected the vote in ANY way, let alone 'rigged' it in favor of Hillary.
As I understand it, even Donna Brazile concludes that in her book.

But don't take it from me. If this revelation was really 'rigged' then Jeff Weaver, manager for the Bernie campaign, would be outranged. Instead, he acknowledges that the DNC was biased against Bernie, and gives a good number of examples of that, but does not even hesitate to immediately focus on the future, not the past.

Take a listen :



And note that contrary to the claims made in the "Real News" episode you post above, CNN and MSNBC, and other networks all covered this story. I even heard it on NPR while driving home yesterday.

Also, I'd like to appeal to your sense of reason and perspective about this issue.

Imagine you are Hillary Clinton, and it is 2015 before the primaries.
The DNC is in shambles, disorganized and $13 million in debt.
Somebody needs to fix that for the DNC to run efficiently during the general elections against Trump. Since Bernie would not fix the mess at the DNC (not his job, nor his problem), so obviously Hillary's team (as the likely candidate for the general election) had to step in and do something. So she did, and she made sure that the DNC would be ready, by paying off their debt, funding them, and yes, also get her people in there to make sure it was done right.

Is that so unreasonable ?
« Last Edit: November 05, 2017, 05:53:21 AM by Rob Dekker »
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pileus

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Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
« Reply #648 on: November 05, 2017, 05:37:34 AM »
Some additional perspective.

The DNC/HFA Agreement & Donna Brazile’s Growing Pile of Nonsense

http://talkingpointsmemo.com/edblog/the-dnchfa-agreement-donna-braziles-growing-pile-of-nonsense

The upshot is that this is significantly different from what Donna Brazile claimed in the book excerpt published in Politico. But it also includes levels of control pre-general election that would have have as a surprise to many. It’s a surprise to me. As I wrote in yesterday’s post, there’s nothing here that remotely qualifies as “rigging” the election. That is inflammatory talk and frankly a smear. Just why Brazile went that route I do not know and don’t care to speculate. But she did everyone involved a grave disservice by being willfully misleading, deeply self-serving and inflaming already existing divisions in the party that will be hard to repair as it is.

Indeed, the “rigging” language doesn’t even make sense if you have any real understanding of what the DNC actually does. The primary schedules are set up way in advance of the actual campaign, long before anyone at the DNC had any idea Sanders would mount such a strong campaign. The DNC doesn’t administer the primaries; the states do. Basically the DNC couldn’t “rig” process even if it wanted to.

Rob Dekker

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Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
« Reply #649 on: November 05, 2017, 06:01:14 AM »
As far as I know, Donna Brazile was vice-chair of the DNC in 2015 when this document was signed (between the Hillary campaign and the DNC).

So she WOULD have known about this document even back then !

Yet even though she knew about this document, during the primaries she forwarded debate questions to Clinton's campaign during the 2016 Democratic primary, and undermined Bernie's campaign in the process.

So why does she come out with this information now that her book is finished and not during the primaries when it really mattered ?

This is not an honest woman, folks.
« Last Edit: November 05, 2017, 07:10:32 AM by Rob Dekker »
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