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Neven

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Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
« Reply #1050 on: March 07, 2018, 01:50:22 PM »
Thanks pileus. Corporate Democrat Madness Syndrome (CDMS) is a great assessment of sidd's biased reporting.

On the other hand, sidd doesn't live in a bubble surrounded with people who have the same tastes and opinions as him.

Quote
And he does not seem to be the only one on this forum.
Somehow these guys are determined to destroy the Democratic Party, apologize for Putin and have not one bad word to say about the alt-right.

Again, I would like to see the Democratic Party saved (I can't save it myself, being non-American), because it's the only way meaningful change can come about. A third party is too difficult to set up and most of the Republicans are corrupt sociopaths. The only thing that stands in the way of making the Democratic Party a vehicle for meaningful change, is Corporate Democrats, their consultant buddies and their corrupt system, geared towards keeping progressives and people who want to represent the people out of positions of power.

I don't apologize for Putin - even though western media paint an exaggerated picture of him to promote the new red scare -, but try to make a rational assessment of what it would take to force Putin to do what I want him to do. Risking a nuclear war for the 'truth' doesn't seem like a rational course of action, especially as it plays right into the hands of forces that want war and conflict to keep control over the peoples of the world.

The alt-right is largely irrelevant, but even if it wasn't, there'd be not much use discussing it on a forum where everyone agrees about what the alt-right is. Obsessing over the alt-right is a distraction, meant to divide and polarize.

You know, Rob, resistance isn't about being against something, but actually about being for something. The latter is more difficult, as it requires introspection and a world view based on universal morals and principles, regardless of tribe. It's always easy to find an enemy if you want one. But you yourself are your biggest enemy.
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Neven

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Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
« Reply #1051 on: March 07, 2018, 02:21:29 PM »
The system we currently operate under is the democratic system with free elections.
Sure there are issues with that (Citizens United being the most problematic one since it allows unimpeded flow of money into politics).

Could you please clarify what you mean with 'the system' in you sentence ? Is it just individual issues like Citizens United or corporate Democrats or corporate Republicans that are the enemy, or the democratic system as a whole ?

What I refer to when talking about 'the system', is the current dominant economic system that is focussed on maximizing an arbitrary and flawed measure called GDP growth, not for the sake of itself, but to increase concentrated wealth at an exponential rate. This is what is driving consumer culture which causes all kinds of problems, not least mass conditioning of the population. Because it's never enough for concentrated wealth, all kinds of limits get pushed, environmental as well as social.

As long as this system isn't changed, consequences can't be resolved either. And you can't change it if you don't talk about it, or talk about it in convoluted ways. Of course, it is a complex problem, but the essence isn't all that complicated.

Quote
The 2016 Democratic Party Platform was a good progressive start :
http://www.presidency.ucsb.edu/papers_pdf/117717.pdf

Which part of that platform do you not agree with ?

Let me also note that there are some that claim Democrats lost the elections because this platform was too far left. And they may have a point. The US is a weird country in that sense.

The US is definitely a weird country, but if you're going to bow because the voters are allegedly leaning towards the right, you might as well give up immediately. That is why it is so important to be able to say exactly what you stand for and how that will benefit most of the American people the most. Once you accept corporate donations , you lose the ability to do so. Or worse still, you talk the talk (like Corporate Democrats do, although you'll never hear them question the system), but when push comes to shove, you don't walk the walk.

As for that platform, I want to hear it from you, Rob. What is it you stand for? And what do you think people should and will unite behind.
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Neven

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Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
« Reply #1052 on: March 07, 2018, 03:26:09 PM »
Looking into the 2016 Democratic Party Platform some more, one thing immediately jumped out at me:

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The party platform is a written document that outlines the Democratic Party's policy priorities and positions on domestic and foreign affairs. It does not have any binding impact on Democratic elected officials or candidates.

Like I said, talking the talk is easy, but even then I don't feel that the talk of the DPP comes through in the talk of prominent Democrats in Congress. Compare for instance to the talk of A Better Deal. As for the walk...  ::)  :-X

The party platform is simply a collection of all the things that Democrats want, but even then, Sanders and his campaign had to fight to get at least the talk part straight. They were partially successful:

Quote
On June 25, 2016, a draft of the Democratic Party platform was approved by the Platform Drafting Committee. It included calls to raise the minimum wage to $15, abolish the death penalty, more strictly regulate Wall Street, establish a multi-millionaire surtax, and review existing trade agreements such as the Trans-Pacific Partnership. According to J Street's Jeremy Ben-Ami, the draft also featured language on the Israeli-Palestinian conflict that gave “parallel acknowledgment of Israeli and Palestinian rights.”

Sanders said the following day that he would continue to push for more progressive policies, including a carbon tax and fracking ban, in the platform. “We lost some very important fights. We're going to take that fight to Orlando, where the entire committee meets in two weeks. And if we don't succeed there, then we'll certainly take it to the floor of the Democratic convention,” he pledged.

The larger Platform Committee approved a final draft of the platform in the early hours of July 10, 2016, which included victories for Sanders backers on climate change, healthcare, and the federal minimum wage. Among their unsuccessful proposals were a rejection of the Trans-Pacific Partnership, language on Israeli settlements, and a ban on fracking.

Wow, what an amazing last sentence! What a fight over a non-binding piece of paper! Of course, it's no surprise when corporate scum like Debbie Wasserman Schultz and Dannel Malloy are involved.
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Martin Gisser

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Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
« Reply #1053 on: March 07, 2018, 05:50:25 PM »
The alt-right is largely irrelevant,
Then what about Uncle Redneck, who loathes librols and their socialist ideas? That is, almost half the nation? Trump approval is basically stable since a year. You think you can reach these folks with elite college kids explaining them progressive stuff?

Neven

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Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
« Reply #1054 on: March 07, 2018, 09:45:12 PM »
Then what about Uncle Redneck, who loathes librols and their socialist ideas? That is, almost half the nation? Trump approval is basically stable since a year. You think you can reach these folks with elite college kids explaining them progressive stuff?

I don't know how large that group is. My guess/hope is that enough of them can be convinced by someone who doesn't accept corporate money that he/she will fight for a livable wage, universal health care, free college and so on. In short someone who takes the Democratic Party Platform - as fought for by Sanders to, at least on paper, get the Democratic Party to adopt a more progressive stance - and then actually does everything he/she can to enact it, not being hindered by allegiance to corporate donors. I base that from what I've seen from Sanders interacting with the kind of people you allude to.

You can send Pelosi, Feinstein, Schumer, Perez and Wasserman-Schulz, but people tend to look through them, especially given their past. Politicians Pelosi, Feinstein, Schumer and Wasserman-Schulz know how to appeal to another group, the professional class on the coasts with a good education/income, fine manners and superior values.
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sidd

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Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
« Reply #1055 on: March 07, 2018, 10:20:51 PM »
Democrats seem to be running a lot of ex spooks:

http://www.wsws.org/en/articles/2018/03/07/dems-m07.html

sidd

Neven

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Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
« Reply #1056 on: March 07, 2018, 10:33:41 PM »
Only today do I realize how prescient I was yesterday: ;)

If I were a Corporate Democrat, I'd make sure to vote the right way to maintain my image on identity politics and the environment, and all those other things that the well-paid professionals on the coasts care about (unlike the tens of millions of Americans who don't have a livable wage). But when it comes to Wall Street regulation or things that affect the pharma and insurance industries, for instance, I'd be sure to vote the right way to make sure enough campaign donations come in to increase my power with fellow Democrats and stay friends with the media and consultant class. The well-paid professionals aren't really affected by them, and who cares about the deplorables. Besides, these things are so complex, I can spin 'em any way I like.

I could vote nay on bills that are bound to pass because Republicans have the majority and all vote yea, and when it's tight, Heitkamp, Manchin and the rest of Satan's little helpers can take care of it.

It seems that this is exactly what Senate minority leader Chuck Schumer is doing.

Angel Padilla, a policy director at Indivisible (a well-funded part of The Resistance), on his twitter page:

Quote
The Senate has begun considering the #BankLobbyistAct, which will make it more likely that we have a repeat of the 2008 financial crisis. This is a core part of the Republican agenda: siding with big banks, corporations, and the wealthy, at the expense of the rest of us.

Mitch McConnell, Republicans, and Donald Trump don’t care about the enormous risk this creates for our country and for American families. That’s not surprising. What is surprising is that Democrats are pushing the #BankLobbyistAct over the finish line.

We’re seeing something that we often see from Democratic leadership — that might only be obvious to you if you’ve worked on the Hill or have covered the Hill. Dem leadership might be ostensibly opposed to this bill, but is LETTING this bill pass. Here’s how.

Dems are in the minority, but they have tools that they can use to stop or at least slow down this bill. The first is the vote on the Motion to Proceed, which has a 60 vote threshold. That means that McConnell needs at least 10 Democrats to move onto the bill.

The MTP is where a powerful Minority Leader could stop a bill they didn’t like, if they wanted to. In this case, @SenSchumer could ask his caucus to vote against the MTP and this would all be over. But he’s not asking Dems to vote against the MTP; the question is, why not?

There are only two explanations, each equally damning. The first is that Schumer doesn’t have control over his caucus, which is a bad place to be if you really want to be Majority Leader. It means that he can’t ask for Ds to vote against it because he knows they’ll ignore him.

The second is that @SenSchumer not-so-secretly wants this bill to pass. He’ll vote against it, to provide cover for himself, but he’ll do nothing to stop it from moving forward. This is the most likely explanation.

And to be clear, Schumer won’t even ask Dems to withhold their votes on the MTP as leverage to ensure that Democratic amdts -- including an amdt to prevent racial discrimination in lending -- get a vote.

So why would Schumer do this? He’s making the calculation that this bill brings him closer to becoming Majority Leader. That the bill allows moderate dems to raise campaign money from big banks, plus helps secure their loyalty to him.

The problem is that it comes at the cost of everyone else. We know from CBO that this bill increases the likelihood of bank failure and increases the deficit:

Quote
Attention Dems supporting S. 2155 and looking for an off ramp to change your mind: THE CBO SCORE IS IT. CBO says it:

- increases likelihood of bank failure + taxpayer bailouts
- helps biggest banks, including $250B+, maybe Citi and JPMorgan
- adds $670 million to deficit

Unfortunately, this seems like a done deal. But this is an election year and we need to hold all of our MoCs accountable — Republicans and Democrats. And @SenSchumer needs to be held accountable for assisting rather than resisting. [End]

Why don't you join other progressives to send out a signal and put pressure on Corporate Democrats, just like Sanders did when drafting the Democratic Party Platform? Don't you see that this is the only way to not only to reform the Democratic Party, but to also give it a chance to turn that blue wave into a blue beach, instead of being followed by another red wave/tsunami?

If you don't do this, you'll provide cover to those in the Democratic party who either want to keep the corporate gravy train going with their consultant buddies, or who live in an out-of-touch bubble and think that a continuation of neoliberal policies will make everything right in the end. And providing that cover is what is splitting the party, not sending out a signal that enough is enough.
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Neven

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Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
« Reply #1057 on: March 07, 2018, 10:40:15 PM »
Democrats seem to be running a lot of ex spooks:

http://www.wsws.org/en/articles/2018/03/07/dems-m07.html

sidd

If true, this is insane. A further consolidation of military-industrial influence in US politics. As if they needed it.

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The total of such candidates for the Democratic nomination in the 102 districts is 219. Each has a website that gives biographical details, which we have collected and reviewed for this report. It is notable that those candidates with a record in the military-intelligence apparatus, as well as civilian work for the State Department, Pentagon or National Security Council, do not hide their involvement, particularly in the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan. They clearly regard working as a CIA agent in Baghdad, an Army special ops assassin in Afghanistan, or a planner for drone missile warfare in the White House or Pentagon as a star on their résumé, rather than something to conceal.
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sidd

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Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
« Reply #1058 on: March 07, 2018, 10:48:10 PM »
" ... sidd doesn't live in a bubble ... "

I travel a lot on the road, through a lot of small towns, that helps.  I deal with a lot of people who work with their hands. That helps. I hang out in dive bars and shoot pool. That helps.

But mostly, I listen. That really helps.

sidd

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Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
« Reply #1059 on: March 07, 2018, 10:49:46 PM »
Schumer ?! Waiting for Schumer to do anything anti-corp will be a loooong wait. Schumer never met a banker he didn't fellate.

sidd

Martin Gisser

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Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
« Reply #1060 on: March 07, 2018, 11:04:17 PM »
...and I was wondering how Schumer and Feinstein could vote against the BankLobbyistAct!

sidd

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Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
« Reply #1061 on: March 07, 2018, 11:40:26 PM »
"I could vote nay on bills that are bound to pass because Republicans have the majority and all vote yea, and when it's tight, Heitkamp, Manchin and the rest of Satan's little helpers can take care of it."

Precisely. Thats how the sausage is made. Democrats in rightish districts vote to ensure passage, and Schumer and the rest of the corp democrats like Schumer flaunt their no vote. So the vote count dont reveal much.

Which is why you need the whip to enforce partyline votes. And back it up with penalties. And that is exactly what Pelosi and Schumer will never do.

sidd

Neven

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Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
« Reply #1062 on: March 07, 2018, 11:47:23 PM »
...and I was wondering how Schumer and Feinstein could vote against the BankLobbyistAct!

I'm not sure what you're trying to say, but here is again the interpretation of the policy director at Indivisible:

Quote
Dems are in the minority, but they have tools that they can use to stop or at least slow down this bill. The first is the vote on the Motion to Proceed, which has a 60 vote threshold. That means that McConnell needs at least 10 Democrats to move onto the bill.

The MTP is where a powerful Minority Leader could stop a bill they didn’t like, if they wanted to. In this case, @SenSchumer could ask his caucus to vote against the MTP and this would all be over. But he’s not asking Dems to vote against the MTP; the question is, why not?

There are only two explanations, each equally damning. The first is that Schumer doesn’t have control over his caucus, which is a bad place to be if you really want to be Majority Leader. It means that he can’t ask for Ds to vote against it because he knows they’ll ignore him.

The second is that @SenSchumer not-so-secretly wants this bill to pass. He’ll vote against it, to provide cover for himself, but he’ll do nothing to stop it from moving forward. This is the most likely explanation.

And to be clear, Schumer won’t even ask Dems to withhold their votes on the MTP as leverage to ensure that Democratic amdts -- including an amdt to prevent racial discrimination in lending -- get a vote.

So why would Schumer do this? He’s making the calculation that this bill brings him closer to becoming Majority Leader. That the bill allows moderate dems to raise campaign money from big banks, plus helps secure their loyalty to him.

The problem is that it comes at the cost of everyone else.

This is just like the Democrat cave on DACA. This isn't accidental, or because someone is stupid, or because they don't have a spine. They have a spine, all right, when it comes down to standing up for the donors.

Martin, why are you against sending out a signal to Corporate Democrats - or however you want to call them - that enough is enough?
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Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
« Reply #1063 on: March 08, 2018, 12:58:28 AM »
Quote
Which is why you need the whip to enforce partyline votes. And back it up with penalties. And that is exactly what Pelosi and Schumer will never do.

Yesterday Schumer made a speech in the Senate. It was classic anti-Republican grandstanding. He didn't even mention this bill, even tho it rolls back much of Dodd-Frank. I thought Democrats care a lot about Obama's legacy?

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Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
« Reply #1064 on: March 08, 2018, 01:09:12 AM »
Democrats seem to be running a lot of ex spooks:

http://www.wsws.org/en/articles/2018/03/07/dems-m07.html

sidd


Spooky candidates indeed!
Do democrats really win anything fielding candidates like these?


Looking forward to the follow-up articles.
Terry

Martin Gisser

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Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
« Reply #1065 on: March 08, 2018, 01:30:19 AM »
Martin, why are you against sending out a signal to Corporate Democrats - or however you want to call them - that enough is enough?
Depends on the signal. Something like what I posted above is OK.

But else I see too much self-defeating bickering. Now that the Reps can't trip the Dems over anymore, the "Progressives" are suddenly eager to do that themselves. (Latest example: The oh soo progressive young turk smugly smearing Feinstein with that old confederate flag thing - without admitting one shred of context. College level bickering. You need a f-ing message, little turk. Something serious with real content.)

I want the Dems to win, massively. Now. I want the GOP destroyed. Now. Else forget progress.

You can try to teach Uncle Redneck about social democracy later. (Like Obama did with the ACA.) One baby step at a time. Not throw out the baby with the bath water. The first step is to give the Dems some clout. Not slaughter their old war horses and try to replace them with unexperienced colts.
« Last Edit: March 08, 2018, 01:35:30 AM by Martin Gisser »

sidd

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Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
« Reply #1066 on: March 08, 2018, 02:10:09 AM »
"I want the Dems to win, massively. Now. I want the GOP destroyed. Now."

And I want a unicorn.

Thos "old war horses" have, over the long, bitter decades, taken the USA "one baby step at a time" to this nightmare. To the glue factory with them.

sidd

Rob Dekker

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Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
« Reply #1067 on: March 08, 2018, 06:12:11 AM »
Quote
Let me also note that there are some that claim Democrats lost the elections because this platform was too far left. And they may have a point. The US is a weird country in that sense.

The US is definitely a weird country, but if you're going to bow because the voters are allegedly leaning towards the right, you might as well give up immediately.

I've lived in this country for 26 years now, and 12 years ago I would not believe that Barack Obama could ever be president. Nor that Donald Trump could ever be president.

And that says it all about this country.

Quote
As for that platform, I want to hear it from you, Rob. What is it you stand for? And what do you think people should and will unite behind.

I'm with Bernie, and knowing what I just said, it may happen.

But what I'm more excited about is the vast numbers of Democrats that are standing up and register for the elections in 2018 and 2020. The blue wave is coming, and you should not worry so much about particular democrats.

Take a deep breath. The US is going to be OK.

I'm more concerned about European nations like Austria and Italy where the alt-right is in the government. How are you going to kick these guys out ?
« Last Edit: March 08, 2018, 07:37:27 AM by Rob Dekker »
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Rob Dekker

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Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
« Reply #1068 on: March 08, 2018, 06:25:24 AM »
"I could vote nay on bills that are bound to pass because Republicans have the majority and all vote yea, and when it's tight, Heitkamp, Manchin and the rest of Satan's little helpers can take care of it."

You obviously did not spot the logical fallacy in this statement.
Not to mention that is shows who the REAL Corporate Democrats are.
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Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
« Reply #1069 on: March 08, 2018, 08:38:27 AM »
We have here post about Austrian politics so maybe Italian situation is interesting too:

"Italian Elections: The Great Five-Star Surprise" by Ugo Bardi, Tuesday, March 6, 2018

https://cassandralegacy.blogspot.fr/2018/03/italian-elections-great-five-star.html#comment-form

Quote
In the end, Italians seem to have reasoned that their political system is so deeply corrupt to be unrecoverable, at least in terms of the traditional political forces (e.g. the left). So, they rewarded a force claiming to be composed of honest citizens - in a way amateurs rather than professional politicians. And the M5s movement won despite the concerted effort of both the Left and the Right to defame them.

Rob Dekker

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Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
« Reply #1070 on: March 08, 2018, 09:14:41 AM »
We have here post about Austrian politics so maybe Italian situation is interesting too:

"Italian Elections: The Great Five-Star Surprise" by Ugo Bardi, Tuesday, March 6, 2018

https://cassandralegacy.blogspot.fr/2018/03/italian-elections-great-five-star.html#comment-form

Quote
In the end, Italians seem to have reasoned that their political system is so deeply corrupt to be unrecoverable, at least in terms of the traditional political forces (e.g. the left). So, they rewarded a force claiming to be composed of honest citizens - in a way amateurs rather than professional politicians. And the M5s movement won despite the concerted effort of both the Left and the Right to defame them.

That last statement is odd.
Salvini is FAR-right. Alt-right if you will.

So if it is true that BOTH left and right attempted to defame him, why did the Italians choose to go FAR-right ? Why not FAR-left for a change ? Or just go CENTER. Why FAR-right ?

https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/europe/matteo-salvini-could-be-western-europes-first-far-right-leader-since-1945/2018/03/06/2d3dea36-2097-11e8-946c-9420060cb7bd_story.html?utm_term=.f6fccd789f47

Quote
And his earthy humor — critics would say racism and misogyny — has proved to be a vote winner among Italians who are nostalgic for an earlier, less racially diverse era. He once quipped that there should be racially segregated buses and trains in Milan, which opponents said called to mind the American civil rights icon Rosa Parks.
...
He says he wants to close mosques, bolster Italy’s borders and take sovereignty back from the European Union. He praises Russian President Vladimir Putin...

Mmm. Why am I not surprised :

Quote
Far-right Italian party Northern League has signed a co-operation agreement with United Russia, the political group led by Russian president Vladimir Putin.
..
Matteo Salvini's spokesperson Iva Garibaldi told IBTimes UK that the interest in working with a Russian party derives from a "long-standing friendship" between the parties, who see eye-to-eye on a number of issues.

https://www.ibtimes.co.uk/italys-far-right-northern-league-strikes-deal-putins-party-russia-1610241
« Last Edit: March 08, 2018, 09:52:12 AM by Rob Dekker »
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ivica

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Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
« Reply #1071 on: March 08, 2018, 11:57:14 AM »
Italian election, addition - Euronews has several articles on it:
http://www.euronews.com/news/europe/italy
http://www.euronews.com/2018/03/05/italian-left-in-shock-after-crushing-election-defeat

Edit:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Five_Star_Movement
"The Five Star Movement (Italian: Movimento 5 Stelle, M5S) is a political party in Italy."

"Politics is not a career
One of the most important rules of M5S is that politics is a temporary service: no one who has already been elected twice at any level (local or national) can be a candidate again and has to go back to his or her original job."

More info?: search for "M5S"

https://www.thelocal.it/20180305/italian-election-results-how-international-press-reacted
« Last Edit: March 08, 2018, 02:28:18 PM by ivica »

Neven

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Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
« Reply #1072 on: March 08, 2018, 12:18:32 PM »
Quote
As for that platform, I want to hear it from you, Rob. What is it you stand for? And what do you think people should and will unite behind.

I'm with Bernie, and knowing what I just said, it may happen.

If I'm understanding you correctly, the Democratic Party should unite behind Bernie and his platform. Why isn't this happening? Why did he have to fight so hard to get some of his proposals into the Democratic Party Platform (and even they wouldn't budge on the TPP, fracking ban, carbon tax and Israeli aggression)? Why doesn't A Better Deal echo Sanders' message word for word? Why did the DNC forfeit its neutrality and support Clinton? Why did Tom Perez get elected instead of Keith Ellison (who sided with Sanders) as the new DNC head? Why did people who sided with Bernie Sanders get purged from the DNC, and partially replaced by lobbyists and consultants? Why does the DCCC do everything it can to block Sanders-style progressives, and instead endorses former intelligence and military people?

And who is Bernie referring to when he talks about 'the establishment'? Just the GOP?

If you'd really be with Bernie, you'd have a much easier time agreeing with me on points, instead of going against every single thing that I say.
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Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
« Reply #1073 on: March 09, 2018, 04:37:09 AM »
I'm a bit confused by your response, Neven, since the answers to these questions seem so obvious to me :

Quote
As for that platform, I want to hear it from you, Rob. What is it you stand for? And what do you think people should and will unite behind.

I'm with Bernie, and knowing what I just said, it may happen.

If I'm understanding you correctly, the Democratic Party should unite behind Bernie and his platform. Why isn't this happening? Why did he have to fight so hard to get some of his proposals into the Democratic Party Platform (and even they wouldn't budge on the TPP, fracking ban, carbon tax and Israeli aggression)? Why doesn't A Better Deal echo Sanders' message word for word? Why did the DNC forfeit its neutrality and support Clinton? Why did Tom Perez get elected instead of Keith Ellison (who sided with Sanders) as the new DNC head?

Because Bernie did not win the primaries. Hillary did.

Quote
Why did people who sided with Bernie Sanders get purged from the DNC, and partially replaced by lobbyists and consultants? Why does the DCCC do everything it can to block Sanders-style progressives, and instead endorses former intelligence and military people?

DNC and DCCC don't determine the vote count.

Quote
And who is Bernie referring to when he talks about 'the establishment'? Just the GOP?

If you'd really be with Bernie, you'd have a much easier time agreeing with me on points, instead of going against every single thing that I say.

Democracy means debate and compromise and understanding other people's point of view.
Like Bernie said : "Bring people together". That's why he endorsed Hillary Clinton for president.

From your response, it sounds like you are more like a my-way-or-the-highway type of guy, unable to compromise or even respect the many other points of view that are acceptable within the Democratic Party.

That's OK, but you can count on the voices of reason to push back against that kind of attitude, and especially against smearing of fine Democrats with stellar voting records.

[edit] Regarding "going against every single thing I say", on this thread's topic, if you want to kick-out obvious corporate Democrats like Heitkamp and Manchin, and a few more that regularly sabotage the Democratic vote, I'll be right along your side battling  ;)
« Last Edit: March 09, 2018, 05:49:23 AM by Rob Dekker »
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Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
« Reply #1074 on: March 09, 2018, 08:27:01 AM »
What I'm trying to say, but apparently I'm not being clear enough, is that if you're with Bernie, you should be able to notice how the party establishment clearly isn't. Your reaction to examples of the establishment clearly not being on board with Sanders and actively resisting him (harder than they resist Trump in some ways), 'Because Bernie did not win the primaries. Hillary did' and 'DNC and DCCC don't determine the vote count' don't make any sense.

Quote
[edit] Regarding "going against every single thing I say", on this thread's topic, if you want to kick-out obvious corporate Democrats like Heitkamp and Manchin, and a few more that regularly sabotage the Democratic vote, I'll be right along your side battling  ;)

And how about Schumer's role? Did you read that Twitter thread I posted, by the policy director of Indivisible?
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Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
« Reply #1075 on: March 09, 2018, 09:03:12 AM »
And how about Schumer's role? Did you read that Twitter thread I posted, by the policy director of Indivisible?

Schumer voted against the BankLobbyistAct.
And about the Motion to Proceed from "policy director of Indivisible", please note that the Democratic party could not obtain 40 votes, due to corporate democrats like Heitkamp and Manchin voting with the Republicans. So why don't we focus on that kind of traitors ?

Look Neven, if even you and me (both favoring Bernie) can't agree on the way forward, then how can the Democratic Party ?
« Last Edit: March 09, 2018, 09:22:57 AM by Rob Dekker »
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Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
« Reply #1076 on: March 09, 2018, 09:13:48 AM »
What I'm trying to say, but apparently I'm not being clear enough, is that if you're with Bernie, you should be able to notice how the party establishment clearly isn't. Your reaction to examples of the establishment clearly not being on board with Sanders and actively resisting him (harder than they resist Trump in some ways), 'Because Bernie did not win the primaries. Hillary did' and 'DNC and DCCC don't determine the vote count' don't make any sense.

I don't understand your point, Neven.
'Because Bernie did not win the primaries. Hillary did' and 'DNC and DCCC don't determine the vote count' are clearly FACTS. How can they "don't make any sense" to you ?
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Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
« Reply #1077 on: March 09, 2018, 09:22:37 AM »
Look Neven, if even you and me (both favoring Bernie) can't agree on the way forward, then how can the Democratic Party ?

Yes, that's the point I've been making. There are certain forces within the party that dominate the party and don't want to change to accommodate Sanders' platform (that you believe everyone should unite behind). You are providing cover to those people. If they remain dominant, the party won't change and will thus continue to lose. So, how do you pressure these forces, if you're not even allowed to talk about them?

Quote
Quote
And how about Schumer's role?

Schumer voted against the BankLobbyistAct.

Yes, but he also has a role as Minority Leader. He is clearly failing in this role. My suspicion is he does it on purpose. Like I described the day before this happened, it's exactly what I would do as a Corporate Democrat (let Heitkamp and Manchin screw things up, point to my voting record, and then defend Heitkamp and Manchin, saying we need them on other issues, rinse and repeat). But even if he isn't doing it on purpose, he is clearly incompetent as caucus leader. This incompetence has serious consequences for the American people.

And so the question remains: Is he doing it on purpose? History would suggest yes. From the New York Times, almost 10 years ago:

Quote
A Champion of Wall Street Reaps Benefits

By ERIC LIPTON and RAYMOND HERNANDEZDEC. 13, 2008

“We are not going to rest until we change the rules, change the laws and make sure New York remains No. 1 for decades on into the future.”

— Senator Charles E. Schumer, referring to financial regulations, Jan. 22, 2007

WASHINGTON — As the financial crisis jolted the nation in September, Senator Charles E. Schumer was consumed. He traded telephone calls with bankers, then became one of the first officials to promote a Wall Street bailout. He spent hours in closed-door briefings and a weekend helping Congressional leaders nail down details of the $700 billion rescue package.

The next day, Mr. Schumer appeared at a breakfast fund-raiser in Midtown Manhattan for Senate Democrats. Addressing Henry R. Kravis, the buyout billionaire, and about 20 other finance industry executives, he warned that a bailout would be a hard sell on Capitol Hill. Then he offered some reassurance: The businessmen could count on the Democrats to help steer the nation through the financial turmoil.

“We are not going to be a bunch of crazy, anti-business liberals,” one executive said, summarizing Mr. Schumer’s remarks. “We are going to be effective, moderate advocates for sound economic policies, good responsible stewards you can trust.”

The message clearly resonated. The next week, executives at firms represented at the breakfast sent in more than $135,000 in campaign donations.
Continue reading the main story

Senator Schumer plays an unrivaled role in Washington as beneficiary, advocate and overseer of an industry that is his hometown’s most important business.

An exceptional fund raiser — a “jackhammer,” someone who knows him says, for whom “ ‘no’ is the first step to ‘yes,’ ” — Mr. Schumer led the Democratic Senatorial Campaign Committee for the last four years, raising a record $240 million while increasing donations from Wall Street by 50 percent. That money helped the Democrats gain power in Congress, elevated Mr. Schumer’s standing in his party and increased the industry’s clout in the capital.

But in building support, he has embraced the industry’s free-market, deregulatory agenda more than almost any other Democrat in Congress, even backing some measures now blamed for contributing to the financial crisis.
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Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
« Reply #1078 on: March 09, 2018, 09:28:09 AM »
Neven, I give up.

You clearly want to continue pissing on Democrats with a great voting record, and for some reason I don't understand you don't want to confront the REAL corporate Democrats, let alone the Republicans.

I withdraw from this thread, I wish you well, and let me know how it turns out.
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Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
« Reply #1079 on: March 09, 2018, 09:30:12 AM »
I don't understand your point, Neven.
'Because Bernie did not win the primaries. Hillary did' and 'DNC and DCCC don't determine the vote count' are clearly FACTS. How can they "don't make any sense" to you ?

Because these FACTS (God bless 'em) were not relevant to the discussion. You said the people should unite behind Bernie (I agree). There are clearly obstacles within the party. I named a couple of examples. You act as if these obstacles don't exist, and given your reactions, you're unwiling to discuss what drives these obstacles. You simply don't want to go there (my guess because of your obsession with the GOP and Trump).

How can people unite behind Bernie, or put differently, how can Sanders' platform be embraced by the Democratic Party, if we cannot talk about or put pressure on the forces within the party that try to keep Sanders and his ideas out?
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Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
« Reply #1080 on: March 09, 2018, 09:34:14 AM »
I withdraw from this thread, I wish you well, and let me know how it turns out.

If it turns out badly, you'll have me to blame and we can do the same thing all over again.

Thanks for withdrawing. We need to move forward and discuss how we can get the Democratic Party to unite behind Sanders' platform.

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Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
« Reply #1081 on: March 09, 2018, 10:07:20 AM »
Economic Update: A System Rigged Against Us [CLIP]


BTW: Progressive Advances In Texas!! by Ron Placone.   "Her name is Laura Moser."


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Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
« Reply #1082 on: March 09, 2018, 11:09:19 AM »
Ron Placone starts new way to communicate with others:

GetYOurNewsOnWithRon. The world's first viewer-curated streaming news show.

"which means people send us articles and send us topics and that's what we talk about for the show. Now folks" spare me of it, watch the video ;)


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Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
« Reply #1083 on: March 09, 2018, 01:29:19 PM »
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Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
« Reply #1084 on: March 09, 2018, 09:25:00 PM »
Warren: Democratic votes for bank bill were a "Stab in the back"

“It is so hard to fight against all the money and all the lobbying. It is so hard to fight when we fight and lose. It’s worse when some of our teammates don’t even show up for the fight,”

They don't even show up. They didn't show up to jail the bankers. They didn't show up to bring the troops home. They didn't show up for single payer. Waiting for them to show up is going o be a long haul.

https://theintercept.com/2018/03/09/elizabeth-warren-wall-street-bank-deregulation-bill/

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Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
« Reply #1085 on: March 09, 2018, 09:30:11 PM »
You can show up all you like on votes, but if you deregulate the banks, it's all for nought. Those 12 'Democrats' should be tarred and feathered, and denounced by everyone in the Democratic Party and in their home states. Any news yet from incompetent/bought leader Chuck Schumer?
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Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
« Reply #1086 on: March 10, 2018, 03:14:42 AM »
Quote
Those 12 'Democrats'

16

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Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
« Reply #1087 on: March 10, 2018, 05:42:42 AM »
Knife fight in the trenches, Warren not happy.  Some of those that voted for the banks also blocked Sanders attempt to import cheaper meds.

https://www.politico.com/story/2018/03/09/elizabeth-warrens-moderate-democrats-feud-452987

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Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
« Reply #1088 on: March 10, 2018, 08:08:36 AM »
I know I officially withdrew from this thread, but I must say I'm glad you guys finally focussed on the REAL Corporate Democrats.
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Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
« Reply #1089 on: March 10, 2018, 07:37:06 PM »
More Ron Placone (and California):
GetYourNewsOnWithRon LIVE 3-9-18 Guest: Jon Pelzer, a candidate for US Congress in California's 30th district.
GetYourNewsOnWithRon LIVE 03-02-18 Guest: Delaine Eastin, running for governor of California.
GetYourNewsOnWithRon LIVE 2-16-18 Guest: California US Senate candidate Pat Harris.

How good they are?, check videos ;)

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Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
« Reply #1090 on: March 10, 2018, 08:55:13 PM »

I know that your fear of the GOP is what fuels your opinions, but you have to understand that the system is your prime enemy. If you fight the GOP, no matter the cost, but not the system, you will never, ever solve AGW. You can support an army of Pelosis and Feinsteins, but you will never, ever solve AGW.

I know your ideology is that effective fund-raisers in Congress have to be whores to "the corporate agenda."  Facts have not supported this generalization.  I've pointed  to voting records, but let me post them.  Pelosi has a sterling record, Feinstein's is very good.  We need folks *exactly* like them in Congress:
....
So where, exactly, should either have voted differently on fossil fuels or the environment?

Nobody can know what "fuels" another persons knowledge, interests, or opinions. And your insulting characterization is a distortion of reality as well. I know you're angry; so am I. But I at least don't direct my anger at friends and colleagues but at people who are destroying my world at speed.

This is a more balanced view of Chuck Schumer (I believe he and Bernie get along just fine) by Elizabeth Kolbert (author of The Sixth Extinction). It's long, so TL/DR will be the order of the day, though I think it is a sturdy corrective to the impractical attacks that run rampant through these discussions, along with a good deal of history about a man who deserves better from us all: https://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2017/03/27/can-chuck-schumer-check-donald-trump

Quote
“I’ve been in Congress a long time and I have never, ever seen anything like this,” he went on. “At this juncture, we would all do well to remember that democracy, the most benevolent, desirable, effective, and just form of government devised by man, is also one of the most fragile systems of government devised by man. It requires constant vigilance.”
....
The power of the Senate minority is purely negative: it can’t pass legislation; it can only block it. But even exercising negative power requires a great deal of discipline—potentially more than the Democrats can muster.
....
Can Schumer negotiate these currents? Can anyone? It seems no exaggeration to say that on these questions the future world depends. As Schumer himself put it the other morning, to the almost vacant Senate chamber, “This is not a drill.”
....
Schumer has voted no on all but two of the Cabinet nominees to come up for confirmation since Chao. These include Jeff Sessions, now the Attorney General; Scott Pruitt, the head of the Environmental Protection Agency; Steven Mnuchin, the Treasury Secretary; Betsy DeVos, the Education Secretary; and Ben Carson, the Housing Secretary.

“This Cabinet is the most extreme, as well as the least vetted, as well as the most conflict-of-interest-laden Cabinet, I think, in the history of America,” Schumer said to me the afternoon I visited him in his office. “It means there are almost no areas where we can compromise with Trump—or ‘work together’ is a better word. Don’t use ‘compromise.’ ”

Later, he told me he thought that people like Vice-President Mike Pence and the White House chief of staff, Reince Priebus, had directed the President’s Cabinet picks, and that Trump might not even have been aware of his own nominees’ views.

“On many of them, it was how they looked, how they felt, and he got captured by the hard right, but he goes along with it because that’s not what he cares about,” Schumer said. “And that’s a really sad, to use his word, a very sad commentary on the President, to not care about the issues you’re governing about.”
[discussion about how the "nuclear option" left Democrats powerless] ....
“It’s not outrage of the day,” Senator Sheldon Whitehouse, a Democrat from Rhode Island, told me. “It’s outrage of the hour.”
....
Barney Frank, the former Massachusetts congressman and one of the chief authors of the financial-reform bill that became known as Dodd-Frank, sat next to Schumer in House committees for eighteen years.

Politicians “are often either good inside players or good outside players,” Frank told me. “Chuck is unusually good at both. He understands that in a legislative body, sharing power with so many people, you need to compromise. Another thing that you need to do, which he does, but which other people do not do, is eschew an attitude of moral superiority.”
....
“Here’s the formula I’ve used,” he said. “Walk in the other guy’s shoes. Try to figure out not what you think he should want but what he really wants. Don’t look down, and you can get things done.”
....
“He reaches out constantly,” Senator Al Franken, a Democrat from Minnesota, told me.

“He knows what everyone’s working on,” Senator Elizabeth Warren, of Massachusetts, said. “He knows what people are interested in and what they are worried about.”

“Chuck is like a giant shop vac with nine nozzles to suck up information,” Senator Whitehouse said.

Schumer has enlarged the Senate’s Democratic leadership team ... Among those elevated were Sanders, one of the caucus’s most liberal members, and Manchin, easily its most conservative.

The lengthy extract is because I don't believe a single one of you who might benefit from reading the full story with an open mind will click through to it, but perhaps this will give you a better flavor of the obstacles we face and the hardness required to make even a losing go at survival before fortune's wheel turns again.

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Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
« Reply #1091 on: March 10, 2018, 09:18:01 PM »
Susan, what's your opinion on how Chuck Schumer is handling the BankLobbyist Act? Is there nothing he can do, as Minority Leader, to prevent those 17 Democrats to vote for it? Do you think he could at least do anything he can to block it, and make a sufficient ruckus about it so that the corporate media can convey to the American people that the GOP is effectively returning everything to pre-2008, financially speaking? Seems like a good thing to tag on to the Republicans.

Or is this one of those compromises you need to make, so that Heitkamp and Manchin and those other criminals will vote with the Democratic Party on issues that can't possibly be as important as this one?

What is the Democratic Party getting out of this? I mean, politically. I find it mindboggling that 17 Democrats -so many! - can defect just like that, and that the Minority Leader does nothing - nothing! - to either stop it, or get out as much as possible. Just like that recent cave on DACA (and the Wall, fer crying out loud). I just don't get it.
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Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
« Reply #1092 on: March 10, 2018, 11:00:07 PM »
Can someone also please explain this to me:

Quote
Nancy Pelosi Just Endorsed a Congressman Who Opposes Abortion and Gay Rights
Dan Lipinski even voted against Obamacare.

Tom Williams/CQ Roll Call/Newscom via ZUMA

Illinois Democratic Rep. Dan Lipinski’s career is on life-support. The seven-term congressman from the Chicago area, who inherited his seat from his father, is facing a formidable primary challenge from businesswoman Marie Newman, whose campaign has been fueled by progressive anger at Lipinski’s opposition to reproductive rights, LGBT rights, and Obamacare. EMILY’s List, the national organization that supports pro-choice women candidates, has backed Newman and, along with a host of progressive groups—including Planned Parenthood and the pro-LGBT rights Human Rights Campaign—has spent heavily on ads against Lipinski:



Elected Democrats—including New York Sen. Kirsten Gillibrand and fellow Chicago-area Rep. Jan Schakowsky—have waded into the primary to back Newman. And in an unusual step for a race with a Democratic incumbent, the Democratic Congressional Campaign Committee had declined to endorse Lipinski.

But on Thursday, less than three weeks before the March 20 primary, Lipinski did pick up one notable supporter: House Minority Leader Nancy Pelosi.

I mean, I know we are supposed to look at voting records only, but I can't wrap my head around these things.

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Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
« Reply #1093 on: March 10, 2018, 11:25:23 PM »
Background on democrates voting for the banks:

 “nine of the twelve Democrats supporting the deregulatory measure count the financial industry as either their biggest or second-biggest donor.”

https://www.alternet.org/economy/democrat-dozen-senators-help-trump-gop-gut-dodd-frank

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Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
« Reply #1094 on: March 10, 2018, 11:27:27 PM »
Warren has a list of amendments to expose the banking lobby:

"Sen. Elizabeth Warren (D-Mass.) vowed Wednesday to not let the bill sail through without forcing votes on a series of amendments aimed at showing Americans whose side their lawmakers are really on."

Go, Warren, go!

https://www.alternet.org/news-amp-politics/warren-refuses-play-dead-big-banks

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Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
« Reply #1095 on: March 10, 2018, 11:28:14 PM »
Sanders on the warpath:

" Sen. Bernie Sanders (I-Vt.) is telling the congressional campaign arm of the party to stop working against progressive candidates in contested primary races this election season."

https://www.alternet.org/news-amp-politics/bernie-sanders-blasts-democratic-partys-attacks-progressives-appalling

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Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
« Reply #1097 on: March 11, 2018, 09:46:36 PM »
@Neven, I'm with you on that. I left out some of the bits that you could easily condemn in the article I extracted, as well as some of the detail of how Schumer takes all his constituents and colleagues into account, which I find mostly admirable. If I were powerful, I'd stop it. Its the infighting that gets to me. Republicans in office appear not to have this problem.

I'd agree with you that for many, their donors lean on them. And if we don't get money out of politics that will continue. I just don't think disabling Democrats does anything but make it much much worse. Our real problem is we (collectively, Democrats) have no power.

The gun thing in Florida shows how even the slightest rollback is a career ender, and they use "Christianity" to justify it (how they can! The Gospels? Jesus? Really?). Marion Hammer runs Florida on this, and she's eager to make murder legal, as long as the victims are "those people" (other races and Democrats). https://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2018/03/05/the-nra-lobbyist-behind-floridas-pro-gun-policies

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Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
« Reply #1098 on: March 11, 2018, 09:49:05 PM »
Warren is my Senator (and Ed Markey) and they are terrific!

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Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
« Reply #1099 on: March 11, 2018, 10:07:01 PM »
Republicans in office appear not to have this problem.
Yes, and that's why them librols are looosers. Somewhere I read (not verbatim) that Abraham Lincoln was a corporate Republican  8)

Quote
I just don't think disabling Democrats does anything but make it much much worse. Our real problem is we (collectively, Democrats) have no power.
Yes, and now the Dem party grows suicidal tendencies in her left brain hemisphere. Woe the self hating librols.

( :) need to shut up for today.)