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Author Topic: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out  (Read 59346 times)

Martin Gisser

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Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
« Reply #1100 on: March 11, 2018, 10:34:08 PM »
Hmm, one more thing. Apropos Lincoln. I'm no expert by far, but at school found him fascinating. And perhaps worth pondering for the impatient progressive.

Frederick Douglass, 1876, on Lincoln:
Quote
Had he put the abolition of slavery before the salvation of the Union, he would have inevitably driven from him a powerful class of the American people and rendered resistance to rebellion impossible. Viewed from the genuine abolition ground, Mr. Lincoln seemed tardy, cold, dull, and indifferent; but measuring him by the sentiment of his country, a sentiment he was bound as a statesman to consult, he was swift, zealous, radical, and determined.
http://teachingamericanhistory.org/library/document/oration-in-memory-of-abraham-lincoln/

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Neven

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Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
« Reply #1101 on: March 11, 2018, 10:50:55 PM »
Susan, I agree, but business-as-usual isn't going to cut it either. Even if we assume that Pelosi and Schumer etc are of good faith, aren't out-of-touch millionnaires who actually believe in neoliberalism as the solution to all woes (lifting all boats), it is still impossible to win with them in the long term. Schumer, still assuming he's of good faith, can't even control or obstruct the clear-cut Corporate Democrats who are going to turn back the time to pre-2008 time of derivative bonanza with their GOP buddies! But it's this kind of legislation that makes all other legislation impossible to be effectively put into practice, because the system - that instead of changing has become yet more powerful again - won't allow it.

Pelosi, who endorses Republicans in Democrat clothing, is negative PR from the moment she appears on screen and starts to talk, because she simply comes across as fake (whether she is or not). Even Pileus, who hates BernieBros and the alt-left (of course, they're all alt-left) with every fibre, says that it's time for replacements. But, as with Trump, the essential question is: What do you replace them with?

Why not, like Rob Dekker says, truly unite behind Sanders' platform and run on leftist populism? All those things the Democratic Party in its current form is either unwilling to touch, or only in the vaguest, non-binding terms. The polls show that a majority of Americans want things like universal health care, a living wage, free tuition, ending the wars, get money out of politics, and so on. Sanders has shown how it can be done (Obama too, but it turned out he didn't really mean it), Warren in her way shows how it can be done. If the signal is sent out that enough is enough to the obstacles within the Democratic Party, the alternative may get enough power to start changing things. It may, at the same time, prove to be the only way to fight the Republicans.

What have you got to lose, that you won't lose anyway if nothing changes? I'm not saying it's an easy solution, but it may prove to be the only one. The Democratic Party in its current form is simply incapable of systemic changes, and without systemic changes we are doomed.
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prairiebotanist

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Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
« Reply #1102 on: March 11, 2018, 11:04:46 PM »
What have we got to lose? I seem to remember some people asking that back in 2016. Every time I glance at the political discussion here I die a little.

Martin Gisser

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Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
« Reply #1103 on: March 11, 2018, 11:09:50 PM »
(Obama too, but it turned out he didn't really mean it.)
Oh no  :'( Whatabout a self-immolation squad instead of that boring ol circular firing squad?  8)

First Obama shook system and sentiment, and the GOP (resp. their corporate sponsors' network) vilified him, and he lost power promptly. OK, so far, so sad. And now the alt-left vilifies him because he couldn't do enough? Sorry, pace Wolfgang Pauli, this is not even BS.  :-[

Now me shut up, promised.
« Last Edit: March 11, 2018, 11:18:59 PM by Martin Gisser »
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Neven

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Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
« Reply #1104 on: March 11, 2018, 11:11:52 PM »
What have you got to lose that you won't lose anyway if it's business-as-usual for the Democratic Party? Explain to me how the Democratic Party in its current form is going to make the systemic changes needed to solve something like AGW. If you can't explain that, then try to explain how the Democratic Party needs to change.  If you can't explain that either, maybe it's time to stop glancing.
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Martin Gisser

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Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
« Reply #1105 on: March 11, 2018, 11:23:24 PM »
So Obama did nothing against AGW? (Good you didn't mention healthcare - my counter question would then be: Why is it politically possible to seriously discuss single payer now?)

And now for some excellent trumpetry:
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Neven

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Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
« Reply #1106 on: March 11, 2018, 11:36:43 PM »
Martin, thanks for illustrating that the Democratic Party in its current form is simply incapable of systemic changes, and without systemic changes we are doomed.  :)
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Neven

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Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
« Reply #1107 on: March 11, 2018, 11:58:38 PM »
Coincidentally, Chuck Schumer pops up at the start of this video:

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Susan Anderson

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Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
« Reply #1108 on: March 12, 2018, 01:09:04 AM »
Would we just for a moment leave out how much money they have and think about their record of service? Being a "millionaire" is not of and by itself a disqualifier. Bernie is a millionaire. Elizabeth Warren is if not the most, one of the most successful fundraisers in the Democratic party now.

I agree that money in politics is a problem, but you're not going to take out the bad guys by getting rid of all the good guys.

I'm not saying the system isn't messed up. I'm just saying that to get past that, you have to stop vilifying the people who are working on the problem while you ignore those who are causing the problem.

PS. At the moment, I get more pesky fundraising communications from Keith Ellison (Perez's defeated opponent) than anyone else, by a long shot.


TerryM

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Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
« Reply #1109 on: March 12, 2018, 03:02:27 AM »
Would we just for a moment leave out how much money they have and think about their record of service? Being a "millionaire" is not of and by itself a disqualifier. Bernie is a millionaire. Elizabeth Warren is if not the most, one of the most successful fundraisers in the Democratic party now.

I agree that money in politics is a problem, but you're not going to take out the bad guys by getting rid of all the good guys.

I'm not saying the system isn't messed up. I'm just saying that to get past that, you have to stop vilifying the people who are working on the problem while you ignore those who are causing the problem.

PS. At the moment, I get more pesky fundraising communications from Keith Ellison (Perez's defeated opponent) than anyone else, by a long shot.


Great! Sounds like he's sticking to his small donor base.
Terry

Rob Dekker

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Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
« Reply #1110 on: March 12, 2018, 07:15:12 AM »
Officially I withdrew from this thread, but since my name was mentioned, I reserve the right to correct a statement :

Why not, like Rob Dekker says, truly unite behind Sanders' platform and run on leftist populism?

What I actually said was this :

Quote
Democracy means debate and compromise and understanding other people's point of view.
Like Bernie said : "Bring people together". That's why he endorsed Hillary Clinton for president.

Which is kind of the opposite of what Neven said that I said.

[edit] You guys were so on the right track exposing the TRUE Corporate Democrats who voted with the Republicans. Why did you get distracted again ?
« Last Edit: March 12, 2018, 07:36:36 AM by Rob Dekker »

Neven

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Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
« Reply #1111 on: March 12, 2018, 10:10:01 AM »
Officially I withdrew from this thread, but since my name was mentioned, I reserve the right to correct a statement :

Why not, like Rob Dekker says, truly unite behind Sanders' platform and run on leftist populism?

What I actually said was this :

Quote
Democracy means debate and compromise and understanding other people's point of view.
Like Bernie said : "Bring people together". That's why he endorsed Hillary Clinton for president.

Which is kind of the opposite of what Neven said that I said.

When I asked you what people should unite behind, you said: I'm with Bernie. I don't feel that the Democratic Party is uniting behind Sanders' platform at all. Do you? Sanders slammed the DCCC the other day:

Quote
The Democratic Congressional Campaign Committee continues to pay the price for its decision to go nuclear last month in a failed attempt to knock out a first-time congressional candidate in Texas. Sen. Bernie Sanders delivered the latest blow on Friday, and his remarks suggest that the left is unlikely to forgive and forget the DCCC’s very public effort to put a thumb on the scale in a competitive primary.

“I detest that type of politics,” Sanders said during a South by Southwest panel in Austin, Texas, according to the Houston Chronicle. “And I think most Americans do.” The Vermont senator added: “That is to my mind, absolutely unacceptable. And it’s got to end.”

That marked the second consecutive day that Bernie publicly shamed the DCCC for its decision to dump its opposition file on Laura Moser, a progressive journalist (who has written for Slate, among others) running in Texas’ 7th Congressional District. “I’m especially distressed that the DCCC tried to do negative attacks against a very respectable and intelligent candidate who is running a serious campaign,” Sanders told the Texas Tribune on Thursday. “That’s just not acceptable. I suspect that it backfired on them, and I hope they don’t do it again.”

Does anyone know what has happened to the people who orchestrated the attack on Moser? Are they still with the neutral DCCC?

Quote
[edit] You guys were so on the right track exposing the TRUE Corporate Democrats who voted with the Republicans. Why did you get distracted again ?

Because there is obviously a problem with leadership when so many Democrats can defect just like that. This piece of legislation is incredibly important, and I don't understand why Schumer is so passive and silent on this. Actually, I think I understand it, and I think that this is yet another piece of evidence that there are forces within the Democratic Party that are resisting change. But something needs to change. How do you get it to change?
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Tor Bejnar

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Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
« Reply #1112 on: March 12, 2018, 01:55:43 PM »
From the VoteMaster (an American professor working in The Netherlands):
 Democrats Are Still Fighting about Superdelegates 

Supporters of Sen. Bernie Sanders (I-VT) were furious in 2016 that the DNC members and elected officials who get to vote at the national convention were all in the tank for Hillary Clinton. Clinton actually won more delegates than Sanders in the primaries and caucuses and absent the superdelegates she still would have gotten the nomination, but the bitter taste of 2016 remains. Now the Party is fighting over what to do about superdelegates in 2020. A 21-member panel of Clinton and Sanders supporters has been wrestling with a compromise for months, but a full resolution is not likely to happen until the summer.

One proposal that seems to have gotten traction is one to reduce the number of superdelegates by 60% and bind members of the DNC by the results of their states' primaries or caucuses. Office holders, however, would be unbound. Basically, the fight is a replay of the 2016 primaries. Few of the people involved can look at the idea in the abstract: Should the leaders of a political party have any say in who their nominee is? The superdelegates represented about 15% of the delegates, so the party leadership had a small say in the choice. If the Republicans had had unbound superdelegates, probably Jeb Bush would have been the GOP nominee, not Donald Trump. The idea of having party officials have some say in the process is to make it harder for rogue candidates to win. In most European democracies, the party leaders pick their candidates internally, without any input from the voters at all. That is to say, there are no primary elections. In that light, giving the people 85% of the power and the party 15% of the power in selecting candidates is a massive outlier.

If the superdelegates are abolished, could that backfire? Consider a hypothetical scenario. Kanye West is considering a run for president in 2020. Suppose his wife, Kim Kardashian West, decides she wants to run, too, so they flip a coin and she wins. She promises to campaign and govern in the skimpiest red-white-and-blue bikini allowed by law, and posts some photos that give her 59 million Twitter followers a preview of what that might look like. In a 30-candidate field, she gets 5% of the vote, making her the biggest vote getter and the nominee. At that point many of the people who helped rid the party of the superdelegates might be wanting them back. Of course, it is highly unlikely that a reality television star could become their party's presidential nominee. Oh wait ... (V)
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prairiebotanist

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Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
« Reply #1113 on: March 12, 2018, 02:33:50 PM »
What have you got to lose that you won't lose anyway if it's business-as-usual for the Democratic Party? Explain to me how the Democratic Party in its current form is going to make the systemic changes needed to solve something like AGW. If you can't explain that, then try to explain how the Democratic Party needs to change.  If you can't explain that either, maybe it's time to stop glancing.
::) First, I don't accept your premise that the Democratic Party needs to make a systemic change. The death of pragmatism is a far bigger problem than money in politics. I think the Democratic party succeeds by not ostracizing the ideologically impure, by running candidates that can win, and by promoting the best policy that can pass at any given moment in time. I don't think the Democratic party succeeds by promising unicorn farts. If we should do nothing simply because it's not enough, then maybe this is a discussion for 20 years ago.


Martin Gisser

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Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
« Reply #1114 on: March 12, 2018, 03:26:40 PM »
I think the Democratic party succeeds by not ostracizing the ideologically impure, by running candidates that can win, and by promoting the best policy that can pass at any given moment in time. I don't think the Democratic party succeeds by promising unicorn farts.
Exactly. Plus, the Dems should not join the GOP-Kochtopus-Breitbart chorus of vilifying Obama and Hillary.

Quote
If we should do nothing simply because it's not enough, then [...]
... better shut up.

Well, at least I haven't heard a bad word about Al Gore. :)
Apropos: What happened to Al Gore? What did he achieve?

-------------
If you want to change a system that is entrenched since more than a century, you need power, first. To get into power, you need to convince people, including Uncle Redneck. And you don't vilify your comrades-in-arms.  To stay in power, words and highfalutin ideals and theories are not sufficient. You have to prove eligibility by action. And that requires compromise with political reality.

As Frederick Douglass said about Lincoln (who was slow in carrying out abolition of slavery), "Mr. Lincoln seemed tardy, cold, dull, and indifferent; but measuring him by the sentiment of his country, a sentiment he was bound as a statesman to consult, he was swift, zealous, radical, and determined." ---- He understood the necessary power play to get things done safely and irrevocably.

If you want to change the system you need statesmen, not blatherers. You need cunning political system engineers. You need a genius of Lincoln's stature. Obama was perhaps the one who came closest to that:

How to convince people has last been shown by Obama with healthcare reform: Do a step forward and let Uncle Redneck see that it doesn't hurt or take away his "freedom" and that is does even benefit him. That is then the basis for the next step. Now (only after Obama) it is possible to seriously talk about Medicare for all.

I'm for political evolution, not revolution. If you try to break the whole system at first strike, you very likely lose the game and only make the enemy stronger.
« Last Edit: March 12, 2018, 03:55:39 PM by Martin Gisser »
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Jim Pettit

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Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
« Reply #1115 on: March 12, 2018, 06:43:46 PM »
Warren is my Senator (and Ed Markey) and they are terrific!

Lucky you. I have Rubio (in the Senate), Francis Rooney in the House, and  Rick Scott as my governor.

Wanna trade? Please?

zheega

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Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
« Reply #1116 on: March 12, 2018, 08:22:33 PM »
Quote
Exactly. Plus, the Dems should not join the GOP-Kochtopus-Breitbart chorus of vilifying Obama and Hillary.
Dems should stop ignoring big policy problems with Obama and Hillary. Especially money in politics and foreign policy.

Just responding with "nananana" to honest and accurate criticism of your own party will only lead to more losses.


Dems should not join the GOP-Kochtopus-Breitbart chorus when it comes to fake scandals like Benghazi and Obama's birth certificate etc.

Neven

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Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
« Reply #1117 on: March 12, 2018, 09:08:19 PM »
First, I don't accept your premise that the Democratic Party needs to make a systemic change. The death of pragmatism is a far bigger problem than money in politics. I think the Democratic party succeeds by not ostracizing the ideologically impure, by running candidates that can win, and by promoting the best policy that can pass at any given moment in time. I don't think the Democratic party succeeds by promising unicorn farts. If we should do nothing simply because it's not enough, then maybe this is a discussion for 20 years ago.

We'll just have to agree to disagree etc. For my part, I will continue to post articles, videos and analyses that I think underscore the point I'm trying to make. If I see signs that the Democratic Party is heading in the right direction, I'll be sure to point it out. But again, power concedes nothing without a demand.

It'd be nice if people addressed my central argument instead of picking out one sentence or word they don't like. So far no one has even made an attempt at explaining why Chuck Schumer has acted the way he has done wrt the Bank Lobbyist Act, or why Pelosi endorsed that Republican in Illinois. Hear no evil, see no evil?

Never mind. This has simply become a subject I'm interested in.
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TerryM

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Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
« Reply #1118 on: March 13, 2018, 08:46:55 AM »


We'll just have to agree to disagree etc. For my part, I will continue to post articles, videos and analyses that I think underscore the point I'm trying to make. If I see signs that the Democratic Party is heading in the right direction, I'll be sure to point it out. But again, power concedes nothing without a demand.

It'd be nice if people addressed my central argument instead of picking out one sentence or word they don't like. So far no one has even made an attempt at explaining why Chuck Schumer has acted the way he has done wrt the Bank Lobbyist Act, or why Pelosi endorsed that Republican in Illinois. Hear no evil, see no evil?

Never mind. This has simply become a subject I'm interested in.
I concur with Susan when she states that the worst Democratic Politician is preferable to the best Republican Politician.
That said, I agree with JimD when he says that he sees no difference between the Democratic party and the Republican Party.


Both parties have been totally corrupted by industrial and corporate dollars as well as the callous malignancy of neocon ideology.


The democratic base is far to the left of the Democratic Party. As such there is some small hope that the voice of the people will be heard and the Party leadership can be driven into a very gilded retirement.
That voice isn't divisive, it's a call to rally around the humanitarian principles that the majority of Americans espouse, even after decades of baseless propaganda emanating from both parties.


A pyramid's mass is near the base. It's not the shiny cap stones that make them the wonders of the ancient world, but the huge mass that holds up these iconic peaks.
We don't need to overturn the pyramid, just throw off the top through the mass of our votes. There are no "deplorable" boulders holding up the apex.
Everyone has needs and a Progressive Democratic Party can meet the needs of more American voters than any other entity. First we need to throw off the overlords that press us ever deeper into the dirt.
Terry

prairiebotanist

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Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
« Reply #1119 on: March 13, 2018, 12:11:42 PM »

It'd be nice if people addressed my central argument instead of picking out one sentence or word they don't like. So far no one has even made an attempt at explaining why Chuck Schumer has acted the way he has done wrt the Bank Lobbyist Act, or why Pelosi endorsed that Republican in Illinois. Hear no evil, see no evil?


I won't defend those things, but I'm also not going to conclude that a national party is broken over anecdotes from here and there...just like I won't conclude that AGW is a hoax, because it's cold outside. Pelosi and Schumer do and say a lot in their positions, and I guess I don't expect perfection. Pelosi didn't endorse a Republican either. She endorsed a conservative Democrat in response to a question at a press conference. Of course, you can alter the frame to fit your argument.


Neven

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Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
« Reply #1120 on: March 13, 2018, 12:44:38 PM »
Quote
I won't defend those things, but I'm also not going to conclude that a national party is broken over anecdotes from here and there...just like I won't conclude that AGW is a hoax, because it's cold outside.

But at some point the anecdotes add up and a pattern emerges. I don't expect perfection either, but I would expect some kind of purity, because it's the only way you can fight the corruption. The Democratic Party is compromised by a weight that is blocking the things that most Americans want, and these are not unicorn farts (many countries in the world have them, even if they're much poorer than the US). Americans are led to believe that these are pie-in-the-sky ideas, because so much money needs to be sucked up by concentrated wealth. That's how a whole country got shifted to the right, effectively eliminating the left.

Do you consider yourself a leftist? Then be one!
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prairiebotanist

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Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
« Reply #1121 on: March 13, 2018, 03:30:35 PM »
Quote
I won't defend those things, but I'm also not going to conclude that a national party is

Do you consider yourself a leftist? Then be one!

I don't your validation with respect to whether or not I'm a leftist. I suppose if I'd supported Bernie Sanders, I'd have credentials, but they would have been worthless, and we'd be mired in House investigations of his wife's finances and a complete inability to pass any legislation through divided government. System of government and the constitution have effects we can't ignore in pursuit of what we want from the social order. It matters as well that we weren't largely rebuilt after WWII or the collapse of the USSR. For those reasons, it's facile to point at things other countries have. I believe we can have them, but we aren't going to get them all at once via bills that pass the House, pass the Senate, get signed by the President and that hold up to constitutional challenges in the courts, and if we overthrow the government by taking to the street, it's not going to be the meritorious that are in positions to take advantage of chaos. Promising things that can't be delivered with speed or all at once only causes disillusionment, loss of voter interest, and Donald Trump presidencies. We make progress by ratcheting our way there at every opportunity. You also say that the anecdotes make a pattern. Well, most of the candidates Pelosi has endorsed are much more progressive than the candidate in Illinois you've singled out. That's the pattern. You are choosing to string together exceptions to make a pattern. Here, a lot of the negative perceptions of Pelosi are rooted in sexism. I can't speak for the way people see things from across the pond. 

Neven

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Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
« Reply #1122 on: March 13, 2018, 08:02:04 PM »
Any ASIF members from Kansas or Virginia?



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Neven

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Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
« Reply #1123 on: March 13, 2018, 08:43:04 PM »
Re unicorn farts:

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SteveMDFP

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Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
« Reply #1124 on: March 13, 2018, 10:33:30 PM »
Any ASIF members from Kansas or Virginia?





I don't think Cenk is being honest about the Kansas race.  He makes it sound like the DNC (or "the Democrats") recruited Sylvia Williams to try to defeat Welder.  I can't find any evidence of that.  Seems she just decided to run.  She may have experience in local, retail banking, but she's not Goldman-Sachs or whatever.  And she wants to index the minimum wage and restrict guns.  It's not like she's a monster.  Yes, Welder is more progressive, but there are no enemies here.

As for Dore and Sontopietro, the candidate sounds great.  Note that Dore tried to put words in his mouth about the DCCC and also Russiagate, which Santopietro did not endorse.

The candidates are way better than these two pundits.

pileus

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Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
« Reply #1125 on: March 14, 2018, 04:13:58 AM »
+20 Dem swing in the PA special election this evening, +16 average in the 2017 specials.

115 R seats are more competitive than the PA seat.

Big blue wave coming.

TerryM

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Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
« Reply #1126 on: March 14, 2018, 04:41:49 AM »
+20 Dem swing in the PA special election this evening, +16 average in the 2017 specials.

115 R seats are more competitive than the PA seat.

Big blue wave coming.
Do you have a link?


I'm seeing that Trump won the state with 48.2% to Hillary's 47.5%


In the 4 county's contested today Lamb is winning by 49.9% over Saccone at 49.5%
In Allegheny County the Democrats won then and today.
The other three counties were won by the Republicans in both cases.


I'm relieved that the Democrat won, but I don't see it as a huge swing from 2016.
Terry
https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2018/03/13/us/elections/results-pennsylvania-house-special-election.html

Tor Bejnar

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Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
« Reply #1127 on: March 14, 2018, 04:43:07 AM »
In the PA special congressional election, the conservative Democrat is beating the right-wing Republican by about 750 votes, with mostly 3200 absentee ballots remaining, which will probably split slightly for the Republican, but not enough for an R-win (per MSNBC commentary).  D. Trump won this district by 20% in 2016.  (The previous R incumbent was unopposed in previous two elections.)  A recount (or at least lawsuits) is likely in this conservative district because of the close vote.

So, this is (apparently) not a win for Donald Trump.  Is this a win for Corporate Democrats? or just a win for Democrats? or a loss for America because conservative districts shouldn't exist?  Or what??  A Bernie-ite would never get elected here.  Are there issues outside the "Corporate Democrat"/"The way things should be" dichotomy?

(Terry posted before me...)
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TerryM

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Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
« Reply #1128 on: March 14, 2018, 04:56:07 AM »
I wonder if "Pat & Mike" have any words of wisdom?
Terry

pileus

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Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
« Reply #1129 on: March 14, 2018, 04:56:21 AM »
+20 Dem swing in the PA special election this evening, +16 average in the 2017 specials.

115 R seats are more competitive than the PA seat.

Big blue wave coming.
Do you have a link?


I'm seeing that Trump won the state with 48.2% to Hillary's 47.5%


In the 4 county's contested today Lamb is winning by 49.9% over Saccone at 49.5%
In Allegheny County the Democrats won then and today.
The other three counties were won by the Republicans in both cases.


I'm relieved that the Democrat won, but I don't see it as a huge swing from 2016.
Terry
https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2018/03/13/us/elections/results-pennsylvania-house-special-election.html

PA18 was so red that it was unopposed by Dems the last two cycles.  In 2012 the R won by +28.

Trump won PA18 in 2016 by +20.

AltLeft-splain it all you want.

https://ballotpedia.org/Pennsylvania%27s_18th_Congressional_District_election,_2016


TerryM

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Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
« Reply #1130 on: March 14, 2018, 05:55:32 AM »
+20 Dem swing in the PA special election this evening, +16 average in the 2017 specials.

115 R seats are more competitive than the PA seat.

Big blue wave coming.
Do you have a link?


I'm seeing that Trump won the state with 48.2% to Hillary's 47.5%


In the 4 county's contested today Lamb is winning by 49.9% over Saccone at 49.5%
In Allegheny County the Democrats won then and today.
The other three counties were won by the Republicans in both cases.


I'm relieved that the Democrat won, but I don't see it as a huge swing from 2016.
Terry
https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2018/03/13/us/elections/results-pennsylvania-house-special-election.html

PA18 was so red that it was unopposed by Dems the last two cycles.  In 2012 the R won by +28.

Trump won PA18 in 2016 by +20.

AltLeft-splain it all you want.

https://ballotpedia.org/Pennsylvania%27s_18th_Congressional_District_election,_2016


As your last graphic is from my link I'd ask that you also note that Hillary won Allegheny County by over 100,000 votes while Trump won the other three counties.


The 4 counties split the same way in today's election.
We won a squeaker, an improvement over 2016, but perhaps a reminder that we need to get it together if we're going to win the number of seats we'll need in the next months.
Terry

prairiebotanist

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Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
« Reply #1131 on: March 14, 2018, 11:25:23 AM »
Conor Lamb will be panned as a centrist or sell-out soon enough, but he is the most liberal candidate that could have won in PA-18...and it's still a miracle that he did. Meanwhile, the left forgets Roy Moore and calls Doug Jones a racist.

Neven

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Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
« Reply #1132 on: March 14, 2018, 11:36:42 AM »
I don't know about Doug Jones being a racist, but he was one of those "Democrats" pushing through the vote on the Bank Lobbyist Act.

Shouldn't you be outraged over this:

Quote
Initially, Republicans tried to damage Lamb by hitting him for opposing the GOP tax plan and tying him to House Democratic Leader Nancy Pelosi. But as Lamb refused to support Pelosi, both of those angles failed to resonate with voters.

How dare he?  ;D
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SteveMDFP

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Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
« Reply #1133 on: March 14, 2018, 02:26:27 PM »
I don't know about Doug Jones being a racist, but he was one of those "Democrats" pushing through the vote on the Bank Lobbyist Act.

Shouldn't you be outraged over this:

Quote
Initially, Republicans tried to damage Lamb by hitting him for opposing the GOP tax plan and tying him to House Democratic Leader Nancy Pelosi. But as Lamb refused to support Pelosi, both of those angles failed to resonate with voters.

How dare he?  ;D

The bank bill is flawed, but it serves some legitimate, needed purposes.  The Senate Dems who voted for it aren't necessarily sell-outs to anyone.  See:
Heidi Heitkamp Takes On Elizabeth Warren Over the Senate Banking Bill
https://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2018/03/heitkamp-elizabeth-warren-senate-banking-bill-dodd-frank/555524/

Quote
Politically, Warren is burnishing her reputation as a progressive fighter ahead of a possible 2020 run for president, but by going after Democrats, she could undermine the party’s bid to recapture the Senate majority, since backers of the bill include some of the most vulnerable Democrats up for reelection in 2018...

For years, Heitkamp said, Democrats have watched as smaller banks and lenders in their states have been eaten up by larger institutions, due in part to the added burden of regulations created by Dodd-Frank. “Fundamentally, what I would say is Dodd-Frank was designed to prevent too-big-to-fail,” she said. “And it became too small to succeed. And you've seen since Dodd-Frank the bigger institutions have gotten bigger and the smaller institutions have consolidated.”

Other Democratic backers of the Senate bill, written by GOP Banking Committee Chairman Mike Crapo of Idaho, have made largely the same argument, and they include the party’s 2016 vice presidential nominee, Senator Tim Kaine of Virginia.

The Democrats voting for it needn't be tarred and feathered.
One aspect of the situation is that Warren is building her brand as an anti-Wall Street reformer.  That's a very good brand to have, but there can be costs to an overall progressive agenda.  Note that Warren is using her opposition to this bill as a fund-raising mechanism.  That's a politically reasonable thing to do, but it means her statements about the bill and its supporters really do need to be taken with a grain of salt.

zheega

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Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
« Reply #1134 on: March 14, 2018, 06:55:55 PM »
Here is a good video explaining how the bank bill mostly serves the purpose of deregulating big banks -


Even the CBO predicts this bank bill will cost money -> not because it directly provides any funding or decreases taxes, but because it increases the chances for another bailout and increases the potential size of a bailout.

Neven

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Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
« Reply #1135 on: March 14, 2018, 07:32:11 PM »
Thanks for that video. Here's another video from the Majority Report showing a certain kind of mentality:

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prairiebotanist

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Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
« Reply #1136 on: March 14, 2018, 07:44:58 PM »
Thanks for that video. Here's another video from the Majority Report showing a certain kind of mentality:



That delegate then voted for the bill he was speaking against, because he was grandstanding. http://www.richmond.com/news/virginia/government-politics/general-assembly/democratic-lawmaker-in-virginia-holds-hammer-and-sickle-image-behind/article_f3fa7b6a-6cc8-59b2-a9ab-f90116ffd4cf.html

Neven

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Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
« Reply #1137 on: March 14, 2018, 08:04:55 PM »
I was talking about the funny former lobbyist behind him, but never mind. Are you sure you have properly read the article you link to? In other words, did Lee Carter really vote for the bill he is speaking against in the hammer-and-sickle-video? Or did he vote against it?
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Jim Pettit

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Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
« Reply #1138 on: March 14, 2018, 08:07:19 PM »
No amount of spin here or anywhere else can take away from the fact that last evening's Pennsylvania election showed--again--that voters simply don't like Trump. Period. Conor Lamb beat Saccone in what shouldn't have been a contest at all. And all Republicans--even closeted ones here--should be shaking in their shoes, for if the Democrats can win in heavily-red areas like PA-18 and Alabama, expect a nationwide bloodbath in November even without Mueller's help. No, Lamb isn't "perfect"; he's not a capital 'P' Progressive. But he's a Democrat who is for many of the things liberals want, and it's becoming increasingly obvious that incessant calls for ideological purity on all issues is only going to hurt. We need to vote for the most progressive candidate who has a chance, even if that person makes our skin crawl.

People have had enough of Trump. But since it's too early to vote against him now, people are doing so by proxy.

prairiebotanist

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Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
« Reply #1139 on: March 14, 2018, 08:18:20 PM »
I was talking about the funny former lobbyist behind him, but never mind. Are you sure you have properly read the article you link to? In other words, did Lee Carter really vote for the bill he is speaking against in the hammer-and-sickle-video? Or did he vote against it?

It does appear that the article changes subject to an anti-communist motion at the end.

prairiebotanist

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Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
« Reply #1140 on: March 14, 2018, 08:23:55 PM »
No amount of spin here or anywhere else can take away from the fact that last evening's Pennsylvania election showed--again--that voters simply don't like Trump. Period. Conor Lamb beat Saccone in what shouldn't have been a contest at all. And all Republicans--even closeted ones here--should be shaking in their shoes, for if the Democrats can win in heavily-red areas like PA-18 and Alabama, expect a nationwide bloodbath in November even without Mueller's help. No, Lamb isn't "perfect"; he's not a capital 'P' Progressive. But he's a Democrat who is for many of the things liberals want, and it's becoming increasingly obvious that incessant calls for ideological purity on all issues is only going to hurt. We need to vote for the most progressive candidate who has a chance, even if that person makes our skin crawl.

People have had enough of Trump. But since it's too early to vote against him now, people are doing so by proxy.

Exactly. There will always be defectors on a given vote, but if we are realistic about the best candidates for a given race, more progressive legislation will pass...and Democrats will have the ability to undo some of the rigging (e.g. gerrymandering). Republicans are getting hammered for the mistake of demanding purity right now. They have built institutional advantages for themselves over the last decade or two, but those are beginning to crumble.

Neven

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Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
« Reply #1141 on: March 14, 2018, 08:33:18 PM »
No amount of spin here or anywhere else can take away from the fact that last evening's Pennsylvania election showed--again--that voters simply don't like Trump. Period.

Why would anyone here apply spin to that? This whole discussion revolves around the question: What do you replace Trump with? This is more important than replacing Trump, because if no thought is going into this, there's a high probability that the same mistakes will be made again, reinforcing the perception of the Democratic Party of being in the pocket of Wall Street, etc, instead of fighting for the people. This in turn will most likely lead to a red wave, and if you're unlucky, some POS worse than Trump.

Which is why there needs to be a signal that enough is enough. You don't want just a blue wave, you want a blue beach, like there was under FDR.

Quote
People have had enough of Trump. But since it's too early to vote against him now, people are doing so by proxy.

Could it be that there are a lot of people who went out to vote for Lamb, in other words Democratic turnout was higher, because they were energized? It probably is. Well, it's really, really important what happens with that energy. Remember, there was a lot of similar energy when Obama got elected.

Now, fair or not, but a lot of people, especially those who are struggling, felt cheated out of their energy, seeing no 'change' or 'hope' there would be any. Yes, we can, but we won't. Fair or not, accurate or not, the perception is there. People feel as if both parties are serving the billionaire class, and not the people.

Will this energy be betrayed again? Or will it go differently this time?
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Neven

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Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
« Reply #1142 on: March 14, 2018, 08:35:32 PM »
It does appear that the article changes subject to an anti-communist motion at the end.

Right, so how about changing your comment accordingly? And try to think why you shoot straight from the hip like you just did. I understand that you adhere to the narrative that good and brave Democrats are being vilified by radical leftists. Fine. But does that mean you also have to smear genuine progressives, like that asshole with the hammer-and-sickle-joke did?

The knife cuts both ways.
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Iceismylife

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Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
« Reply #1143 on: March 14, 2018, 09:07:08 PM »
...
Which is why there needs to be a signal that enough is enough. You don't want just a blue wave, you want a blue beach, like there was under FDR.

...
The US under FDR had global economic problem the Great Depression and the toppling of the Romanov empire with the rise of the soviet revolution in its wake.

How to keep the communist revolution from spreading here?

Massive public works projects and public policies designed to grow the middle.  The middle adds stability.
 


prairiebotanist

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Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
« Reply #1144 on: March 14, 2018, 11:33:53 PM »

Now, fair or not, but a lot of people, especially those who are struggling, felt cheated out of their energy, seeing no 'change' or 'hope' there would be any. Yes, we can, but we won't. Fair or not, accurate or not, the perception is there.


Not. The problem is that people don't understand how government works and that an entire legislative agenda can't be delivered in the first half of a Presidential term, so they took their toys and went home, and once there was a Republican Congress, it was over. Promising people things without acknowledging what is realistic clearly doesn't do any good (e.g. Bernie, who had no way of getting to anything he proposed). Thanks for that example.

prairiebotanist

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Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
« Reply #1145 on: March 14, 2018, 11:34:37 PM »
Interesting. Green on the GOP payroll in MT. https://apnews.com/aae15528a9fe415282402c4e14090c75

sidd

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Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
« Reply #1146 on: March 15, 2018, 12:35:28 AM »
Bernie lays it out: go after every constituency, fight everywhere.

--
This country will not change if the Democratic Party continues to ignore half the states in this country, including some of the poorest.
...
We're not going to transform the politics of the United States by just doing fundraisers with wealthy people in New York and California
...
 And we now see a growing majority in this country who understand that health care is a right, not a privilege. We also see more and more people who want a Medicare-for-all, single-payer system.
...
--

Sing it, Bernie.

https://gvan42.blogspot.com/2018/03/letter-from-bernie-sanders-this-is-our.html

sidd

« Last Edit: March 15, 2018, 01:02:50 AM by sidd »

sidd

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Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
« Reply #1147 on: March 15, 2018, 12:37:42 AM »
Bankers win in Senate, house wants to give em even more: watch out for the reconciliation conference and see which democrats were bought:

http://thehill.com/policy/finance/378491-senate-passes-bipartisan-bill-to-rollback-dodd-frank

None of Warren's amendments got a hearing. Guess it would really have exposed the banker democrats and republicans. Can't have that.

sidd

TerryM

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Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
« Reply #1148 on: March 15, 2018, 12:40:34 AM »

Now, fair or not, but a lot of people, especially those who are struggling, felt cheated out of their energy, seeing no 'change' or 'hope' there would be any. Yes, we can, but we won't. Fair or not, accurate or not, the perception is there.


Not. The problem is that people don't understand how government works and that an entire legislative agenda can't be delivered in the first half of a Presidential term, so they took their toys and went home, and once there was a Republican Congress, it was over. Promising people things without acknowledging what is realistic clearly doesn't do any good (e.g. Bernie, who had no way of getting to anything he proposed). Thanks for that example.


It's those damn deplorables again isn't it. They just aren't bright enough to understand how government really works.
Hillary's been on top of it though. In her broadcast from Mumbai, where she's vacationing with her old pal Huma. She really cut loose on those states that didn't vote for her. Pointing out how broke and stupid they are should assure their votes in 2018 and 2020.


What a gal she is. What a leader she would have made.
Terry

sidd

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Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
« Reply #1149 on: March 15, 2018, 01:14:44 AM »
"  ... an entire legislative agenda can't be delivered in the first half of a Presidential term ..."

Decades of betrayal, not just half a presidential term.

The obama voters who switched to Trump did so because they have waited for decades for the Democrats to grow some spines. A lot of these guys voted straight democratic tickets for decades coz the unions told them too. Stuck with the Democrats thru the Reagan years, the Clinton years, the Bush years and the Obama years.

They saw what the Peace President did, let the bankers free, let the torturers walk, and destabilized a couple more countries.

Oh, and did i mention, lost their jobs, houses families along the way.

They just didn't understand how the sausage was made. Not sophisticated enuf. I guess the Corporate Democrats need a more discerning voter, content to starve in the gutter, but still vote for corporate democrats.

Guess what, that game's done.

sidd