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TerryM

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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #100 on: May 01, 2017, 02:55:18 AM »
Terry M
why are you against any investigation?
hmmmm??
mati


You find so many sentences of mine that I have no memory of ever writing. Great catch !!


Terry

sidd

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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #101 on: May 01, 2017, 03:35:28 AM »
Re: Parallels with 1968,1980:

Agreed the analogy only goes so far. In 68, Johnson knew, but suppressed the evidence. It is not clear if Carter knew in 1980. Obama was told of contacts between Trump campaign and Russian interests, and chose to publicize and pursue.

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sidd

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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #102 on: May 01, 2017, 06:38:45 AM »
If anyone wants to skip more historical stories, please ignore this post.

Now that I think about it, foreign meddling in US elections goes back to the 1930s. Remember the House UnAmerican Affairs Committee that McCarthy used ? Few now remember that the committee was previously the McCormick-Dickstein committee and Smedley Butler (yes, the "War is A Racket" guy) testified to them about the attempted coup against Roosevelt in 1934.

https://en.wikisource.org/wiki/McCormack%E2%80%93Dickstein_Committee

These guys behind the coup attempt  were up to their necks in reindustrializing Germany at the time, look at Foster Dulles, Prescott Bush, Thyssen, Warburg and the rest.

In 1936 election the same guys, in the words of the US Ambassador to Germany

"In 1936, William Dodd, the U.S. Ambassador to Germany, wrote a letter to President Roosevelt in which he stated,

    A clique of U.S. industrialists is hell-bent to bring a fascist state to supplant our democratic government and is working closely with the fascist regime in Germany and Italy. I have had plenty of opportunity in my post in Berlin to witness how close some of our American ruling families are to the Nazi regime. ... A prominent executive of one of the largest corporations, told me point blank that he would be ready to take definite action to bring fascism into America if President Roosevelt continued his progressive policies. Certain American industrialists had a great deal to do with bringing fascist regimes into being in both Germany and Italy. They extended aid to help Fascism occupy the seat of power, and they are helping to keep it there. Propagandists for fascist groups try to dismiss the fascist scare. We should be aware of the symptoms. When industrialists ignore laws designed for social and economic progress they will seek recourse to a fascist state when the institutions of our government compel them to comply with the provisions.[43][44][45] "

So I can believe that the Nazis were trying to undermine Roosevelt. And he knew it.

sidd





budmantis

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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #103 on: May 01, 2017, 07:15:57 AM »
Sidd:

Thanks for the history lesson! As Arte Johnson would say on "Rowan and Martin's laugh-in" back in the late 60's and early 70's, VERY INTERESTING.

BudM

Neven

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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #104 on: May 01, 2017, 09:38:18 AM »
From the Washington Times (I don't know if that's a reliable source):

Ex-spy admits anti-Trump dossier unverified, blames Buzzfeed for publishing

Christopher Steele, the former British spy who wrote the infamous anti-Donald Trump dossier, acknowledges that a sensational charge his sources made about a tech company CEO and Democratic Party hacking is unverified.

In a court filing, Mr. Steele also says his accusations against the president and his aides about a supposed Russian hacking conspiracy were never supposed to be made public, much less posted in full on a website for the world to see on Jan. 10.

He defends himself by saying he was betrayed by his client and that he followed proper internal channels by giving the dossier to Sen. John McCain, Arizona Republican, to alert the U.S. government.

Mr. Steele has not spoken publicly about his disputed opposition research project, but for the first time he is being forced to talk in a London court through his attorneys.

Barristers for Mr. Steele and his Orbis Business Intelligence firm filed their first defense against a defamation lawsuit brought by Aleksej Gubarev, chief executive of the network solutions firm XBT Holdings.

Mr. Steele acknowledges that the part of the 35-page dossier that identified Mr. Gubarev as a rogue hacker came from “unsolicited intelligence” and “raw intelligence” that “needed to be analyzed and further investigated/verified.”

More here.
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johnm33

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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #105 on: May 01, 2017, 11:05:12 AM »
More history 
Search the connection between Prescott Bush and Hitler, as to Roosevelt, http://www.ihr.org/jhr/v04/v04p135_Weber.html

Zeug Gezeugt

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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #106 on: May 01, 2017, 02:39:14 PM »
And people in the US aren't really filled with "angst concerning their ongoing loss of hegemonic power and the fact the Russians dare to act for their own national interests"

The people of course are not the elites, by simple definition, for elites are the elite minority who rule over the majority of the people, the hoi polloi, as it has always been. It is the business of the elites to be concerned about the hegemonic power they wield and the rise of geopolitical competitors to that unchallenged power. The hoi polloi need only be concerned with whatever the elites need them to be concerned about, such as external enemies for example, and what better to bring the herd in than a Siberian wolf in sheeps clothing?

And yes, the US elites led by their insane Neoconservatives are currently in a blind panic due to the fact that the US war machine has suffered a major geopolitical defeat in Syria at the hands of the Russian political, diplomatic and military elites. The US regime change war against the secular, democratically elected and UN recognised government of Syria has been defeated, Obama's "Assad must go!" edict is now an empty threat backed up by technically criminal but tactically and strategically useless violence such as the Tomahawk missile strike.

To make matters worse, the Russian Federation has defeated the US regime change war by the technically legal use of force aiding the lawful government of Syria. Everything the US does in Syria however, from training and arming Sunni jihadist rebel forces who kill Syrian civilians, police and army, to actually bombing the Syrian Army at Deir Ezzor, is technically illegal. The US war machine in Syria is an openly criminal enterprise. US wars since 911 have all been technically criminal. The hoi polloi's applause for Trump's big bombs and useless missiles is applause for vicious criminality and everyone on the planet can see this now quite plainly.

Thus US hegemony is failing, its executive via its corporate media spreads increasingly outlandish falsehoods and glorifies criminal acts of violence for the sole benefit of the US domestic audience while vilifying imaginary external enemies, Putlers one and all. But it's the US that has been careering around the globe threatening violence, destroying societies and slaughtering many hundreds of thousands of mostly women, children and the elderly for the last 15 years of the GWOT. And with the collapse of hegemony that truth is finally now becoming utterable. The emperor really does have no clothes, all s/he has is a large bloodied knife like a common murderer.

And its that fact that is causing such angst amongst the US elites, for if they can't control the exceptional narrative they risk losing all control of the hoi polloi from whom they derive their power in the first place. So what better than a bedtime story for y'all, about nasty Russkies and evil Trumps, and make sure to check for reds under that bed! Cos where there's fire there's surely smoke, even without evidence, along with a sucker born every minute.

Archimid

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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #107 on: May 01, 2017, 03:37:30 PM »
It's possible that this has all been Trump's brilliant idea and he approached Putin, but as long as we don't know, it's a case of chicken or egg.

I think the chance this was Trump's idea are remote to non-existent. Trump is not a 4D chess jedi grand master. He is an unethical mediocre millionaire. Putin and their intelligence services are about as close as global 4D chess players as you can get.

 Trump is a merely another pawn in a much bigger game. He was heavily influenced by people like  Flynn to enact policy that would make Trump richer than ever, regardless of the cost to the american people. Those policies also happen to align nicely with Russian expansionist tendencies. As a man slave to his greed, Trump can't see the far reaching consequences of his actions, only the profits.

He was lobbied by foreign powers (powers with interest contrary to that of the American people) and they completely failed to disclose the influence.  If that influence was so innocent, why they didn't disclose it? Why, in fact, they attempted to hide it? Their foolishness shows through this action. They should have assumed they were being watched. Disclosing the contacts would have been the smart thing to do, but they are fools. Evil, determined fools, but fools nonetheless.

At the end of the day the only argument against "Russiagate" that makes at least some sense is that the US has meddled with the election of other countries many times and with nefarious consequences to almost everyone of them. I understand why some people would get a sense of justice out of this. 

However this is going to be a very expensive lesson for all of humanity, including Trump, Putin and fossil fuel interests. 
I am an energy reservoir seemingly intent on lowering entropy for self preservation.

gerontocrat

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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #108 on: May 01, 2017, 06:41:43 PM »
While the USA gets its knickers in a twist on Russiagate, Russia pursues its longterm game plan, e.g. in the Arctic. The Victory Parade on May 9th will show the public some of its latest military hardware especially designed to operate in Arctic conditions.
The US Federal Government and Congress remain dysfunctional and the world moves on.
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Neven

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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #109 on: May 01, 2017, 10:59:51 PM »
Here's one for your watch list, Buddy. ;-)
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Buddy

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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #110 on: May 03, 2017, 01:03:05 PM »
Less than one week till Donnie's worst week in office.  Senate committee questioning of Sally Yates is next week.....and my DVR is already set to record it (10:00 EST May 8th CSPAN).

Pressure is CONTINUING to get to Donnie.  I see he was tweeting about Comey and Clinton last night:

"FBI Director Comey was the best thing that ever happened to Hillary Clinton in that he gave her a free pass for many bad deeds! The phony Trump/Russia story was an excuse used by the Democrats as justification for losing the election. Perhaps Trump just ran a great campaign," Trump wrote in a series of messages.

Yesterday was yet another hint of what is to come.  Mick Mulvaney....former Congressman from South Carolina and current budget director for Donnie gave a "briefing" yesterday.  Apparently Donnie was so upset that he didn't get what he wanted in the spending bill.....that he sent Mulvany to do a "briefing" and "show" that the Republicans got what they wanted (they DIDN'T:  No funding for wall, Dem's got funding for EPA, health issues, planned parenthood, etc).    SO....Donnie had Mulvaney go to give DONNIE'S view of things....and Spicey didn't give the daily briefing AT ALL.  Here is a 60 second clip as Spicey runs out of the briefing room after Mulvaney is finished....with the journalists yelling at him:



This is just the beginning of what will become the bazar over the coming days/weeks/months.  Spicey is going to have to make up a LOT OF SHIT to get through his briefings.  I actually think that Trump's team will in short order move to the strategy of:

"Look.....we lied....but it wasn't that important.  The American people don't care....they just want us to work.  OK."


Next week the fun begins.........

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Martin Gisser

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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #111 on: May 03, 2017, 04:59:33 PM »
It's possible that this has all been Trump's brilliant idea and he approached Putin, but as long as we don't know, it's a case of chicken or egg.

I think the chance this was Trump's idea are remote to non-existent.
Not so remote it seems. And this is what makes Russiagate so hot.

https://patribotics.blog/2017/04/29/sources-boris-epshteyn-paid-russian-hackers-for-both-team-trump-and-fsb/
Sources linked to the intelligence community say (...)
the indictment on April 20th of Levashov in the US district court in Connecticut (where an FBI counterintelligence division is based) represents the first concrete move in court that openly leads towards the impeachment of Donald Trump and the prosecution of dozens of members of his team – because this hacker, the sources suggest, was compensated by Team Trump and the FSB jointly, and Team Trump, sources say, know it.
(...)

Trump Tower was a “command and control” center for the Kehlios botnet, dismantled by the FBI;

That the “Trump server” with a Trump Tower IP address, that was communicating with servers owned by Alfa Bank in Russia, and with Spectrum Health, had the data packets it sent opened on the hour by human members of Trump’s data team, located near to Trump Tower;

http://www.rawstory.com/2017/04/uk-given-memos-indicating-the-trump-organization-paid-russia-hackers-report/
Last December, the U.K. government was reportedly given extensive records of Trump campaign officials’ interactions with the Kremlin.

The Guardian reported former MI6 agent Christopher Steele’s infamous dossier about possible collusion between the Trump campaign and Russia was first given to the UK intelligence services. These documents reportedly contain records of payments from the Trump campaign to banks of Russian cyber trolls tasked with spreading disinformation ahead of the 2016 election.

https://patribotics.blog/2017/04/23/did-donald-trump-commission-russias-hack-of-the-us-election-himself/
Sources linked to the intelligence community say that Donald Trump accepted laundered Russian money which, through shell companies, supported Russian hackers as they attacked America – and then supported Wikileaks and Julian Assange as he published the results of those hacks.
(...)
 Peter Chayanov (one of his many aliases) is a Russian hacker who owns a hacking and spamming company called Hostkey. Upon being outed on Twitter by myself, Bailey and @OpFerguson, Chayanov deleted his account.

Hostkey was revealed firstly to have provided Wikileaks servers in Russia one week before the DNC emails were published, and secondly, to have been given Wikileaks SSL keys, allowing the tracking of any readers of the site, and allowing Putin to deanonymize any past or present leakers or whistleblowers who supplied Julian Assange with documents.

This, of course, makes Assange far more than a publisher – he is now a supplier of intelligence to the Russian state.
(...)

The apparently fake shell companies sit in the listing alongside another, Ontera, which according to an exclusive report by a Czech investigative journalist, was a fake company used solely to wash Russian money through Cypriot banks.
(...)

Will take some time for other media to check and untangle all this.
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Archimid

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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #112 on: May 03, 2017, 06:25:18 PM »
I don't doubt that he knew about it, but I doubt it was his idea. It was probably the idea of Page, Flynn or others. Still, that information that you posted is new to me. I would have to re-evaluate my position.
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AbruptSLR

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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #113 on: May 03, 2017, 06:32:40 PM »
Will take some time for other media to check and untangle all this.

Per the linked article entitled: "UK was given details of alleged contacts between Trump campaign and Moscow", the MSM is following this line of evidence:

https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2017/apr/28/trump-russia-intelligence-uk-government-m16-kremlin

Extract: "In December the UK government was given reports by former MI6 officer Christopher Steele on possible collusion between Trump camp and the Kremlin."

See also:

https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2017/jan/11/trump-russia-dossier-explainer-details

&

http://www.rawstory.com/2017/04/imprisoned-russian-pedophile-appears-to-be-linked-to-hack-of-dnc-computers/
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TerryM

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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #114 on: May 03, 2017, 07:39:35 PM »
Sooo
A convicted Russian pedophile with links to American pedophiles, who has been doing "hard time" without access to anything but a land line since 2013, is the connecting link between Trump and Putin.
His name isn't the same as the one provided by Steele, but Steele probably made a mistake because he's only been an expert working with the Cyrillic alphabet for a few decades. It's all Greek to me, but if McClatchy says it then it must be so.


That a twice convicted pedophile could have gained access to DNC files so closely linked to Weiner's significant other is troubling.
Thank god for these brave, (non-wikileak affiliated), investigative reporters.


http://www.rawstory.com/2017/04/imprisoned-russian-pedophile-appears-to-be-linked-to-hack-of-dnc-computers/


Terry

Martin Gisser

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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #115 on: May 03, 2017, 11:17:27 PM »
Steele probably made a mistake because he's only been an expert working with the Cyrillic alphabet for a few decades.
Puzzling indeed. Perhaps he dictated the dossier. Perhaps it is intentional obfuscation (I tend toward that explanation). The misspellings can't be simply incompetent transliteration of Cyrillic: Making Kapsovich out of Капцугович requires leaving out 2 letters that even someone who only knows Greek would note.
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Buddy

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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #116 on: May 04, 2017, 03:19:09 AM »
I watched some of the clips from the Comey testimony today at the Senate Judiciary Committee.  I haven't watched all of it....but a couple of the clips looked "interesting."

I think the MOST interesting one that I have seen SO FAR.....is Al Franken laying out the case for why the FBI should be looking into Donnie's tax returns.  And he asked Comey if they WERE looking at Donnie's tax returns.



It's difficult NOT to read things into Comey's "no" answers.  Clearly....there are questions that he just CAN NOT ANSWER in a public setting....and there are things he can NOT talk about.

BUT...IF....the FBI has "probable cause"....I believe they CAN subpoena Donnie's tax returns.  I'm NOT an attorney...so don't take my word on that.  But I will have to dig into that in more detail.

I'm going to look at some of the other clips.....or look at the whole recorded session if I get a chance. 

 
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TerryM

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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #117 on: May 04, 2017, 04:02:13 PM »
Susan Rice refuses Senate "offer" to defend her claims that Russia interfered in the recent election.


http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2017-05-03/susan-rice-refuses-senate-request-testify-russian-hacking-allegations


Lying to the press is one thing, lying under oath can get you into trouble.


Terry

Jim Pettit

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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #118 on: May 04, 2017, 04:19:47 PM »
Susan Rice refuses Senate "offer" to defend her claims that Russia interfered in the recent election.

http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2017-05-03/susan-rice-refuses-senate-request-testify-russian-hacking-allegations

Lying to the press is one thing, lying under oath can get you into trouble.

Terry

Yeah, Zero Hedge isn't the only media outlet in a spittle-flecked tizzy of false indignation this morning, calling for their smelling salts and fainting couches over Rice's rightful refusal to participate in Graham's underhanded GOP charade. The issue is TrumpCo's collusion with Russia, and much as most on the right may wish to divert attention from that through phony distractions (such as Trump Tower being bugged by Obama with Rice's help), not everyone is willing to play along. From Rice's letter to Graham and Whitehouse (sent via her lawyer):

"While Ambassador Rice commends the Subcommittee’s efforts to examine this matter of
extraordinary national significance, it is extremely rare for the Congress to request the testimony
of a former senior advisor to the President given the longstanding and well-recognized separation
of powers concerns at issue. Moreover, Chairman Graham’s invitation was extended only after
the hearing was noticed, less than two weeks before the hearing was scheduled to occur, and
without consultation with Ambassador Rice, a professional courtesy that would customarily be
extended to any witness. Notwithstanding the significance of these concerns, Ambassador Rice
is prepared to assist Congressional inquiries into Russian election interference because of the
important national interests at stake, provided they are conducted in a bipartisan manner, and as
appropriate, in classified session
.

In this case, however, Senator Whitehouse has informed us by letter that he did not agree
to Chairman Graham’s invitation to Ambassador Rice, a significant departure from the bipartisan
invitations extended to other witnesses. Under these circumstances, Ambassador Rice
respectfully declines Senator Graham’s invitation to testify
.

Again, and as Ambassador Rice has stated publicly, she supports and is committed to
assisting the bipartisan Congressional inquiries into Russian interference in the 2016 election,
given the utmost importance of this matter to our national security
.

Any objective person at this point sees just how much time and energy the GOP is spending to take people's minds off of Trump's illegitimate candidacy. They can jump up and down and point and hoot and holler, and none of that changes the fact that any collusion will be outed.

Buddy

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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #119 on: May 04, 2017, 04:21:55 PM »
Susan Rice refuses Senate "offer" to defend her claims that Russia interfered in the recent election.

http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2017-05-03/susan-rice-refuses-senate-request-testify-russian-hacking-allegations

Lying to the press is one thing, lying under oath can get you into trouble.

I wonder why:

1)  Lindsay Graham sent out the invitation WITHOUT consulting the other co-chair on the committee from the Democratic side?

2)  I wonder why Graham would request Ambassador Rice to appear ON THE SAME DAY AS SALLY YATES?    I'm SURE that Senator Graham had no intention of "muddying the waters" by having Ambassador Rice testify about an issue (Michael Flynn lying) that she has no information on. ;)

Personally....I would be MORE THAN TICKLED to see Ambassador Rice testify AT ANOTHER DATE (given that both the Democratic co-chair also agrees to her testifying).

 
« Last Edit: May 04, 2017, 05:17:47 PM by Buddy »
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Buddy

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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #120 on: May 04, 2017, 05:22:26 PM »
The first "criminal action" in the RussiaGate fiasco coming?  As reported by several "secondary sources" over the past few days.....there is the possibility of a couple of grand jury's wrapping up their activity in the coming days/weeks.

http://www.palmerreport.com/opinion/keith-olbermann-grand-jury-trump-russia/2584/

This doesn't come as a surprise to me....this would just be the FIRST OF MANY that will be coming over the next 12+ months....



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TerryM

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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #121 on: May 04, 2017, 07:22:01 PM »
They'll be fine - as long as they don't ask for Rice's testimony. 8)
Terry

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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #122 on: May 04, 2017, 08:11:12 PM »
They'll be fine - as long as they don't ask for Rice's testimony. 8)
Terry

I didn't hear about that.  What was it that Susan Rice lied about Terry?
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TerryM

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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #123 on: May 04, 2017, 09:44:23 PM »
More concerned about testifying under oath than testilying 8)


Terry

Buddy

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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #124 on: May 04, 2017, 10:43:41 PM »
More concerned about testifying under oath than testilying 8)


So she didn't lie about anything?  I'm not a Susan Rice expert....I thought you were suggesting that she HAD lied before on something.  That is why I was asking.
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Archimid

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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #125 on: May 05, 2017, 12:40:06 AM »
LOL Jeff Sessions lied under oath about meeting with Russians. But that's just fine. This is the new america, where the law is the law but only if you are on the wrong team.
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TerryM

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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #126 on: May 05, 2017, 01:31:09 AM »
Obama is openly influencing the French elections again. Hope this works out better than his hectoring the Brits about the danger of pulling out of the EU.
It's not as if he doesn't attempt to interfere with foreign elections, he's just not very good at it.


Terry

Martin Gisser

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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #127 on: May 05, 2017, 01:57:10 AM »
More concerned about testifying under oath than testilying 8)


So she didn't lie about anything?  I'm not a Susan Rice expert....I thought you were suggesting that she HAD lied before on something.  That is why I was asking.
The Rice stuff is a Republican red herring (did I type "bullshit"?). Don't waste neurons and time on that, Buddy.
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TerryM

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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #128 on: May 05, 2017, 02:22:18 AM »
The Rice stuff is a Republican red herring (did I type "bullshit"?). Don't waste neurons and time on that, Buddy.


I tend to distrust any government employee that declines a senate "invitation" to testify. - Have any other government employees ever refused such invitations?
AFAIK Susan was an employee of the government, not of the DNC. If so the party affiliation of those offering the "invitation" should not be material. Didn't her cousin testify in front of a hostile senate panel, or was that a congressional probe?


If Russia was doing nefarious things during the recent election, wouldn't sworn testimony related to this be important?
This Democrat is curious.
Terry

Martin Gisser

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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #129 on: May 05, 2017, 03:25:01 AM »
The Rice stuff is a Republican red herring (did I type "bullshit"?). Don't waste neurons and time on that, Buddy.


I tend to distrust any government employee that declines a senate "invitation" to testify. - Have any other government employees ever refused such invitations?
She was invited by the Rep chair only. (There's the scandal, if any.) Plus, the Dem chair (Whitehouse, one of the rare sane minds in the D.C. circus) confirmed she was right to decline. Anyhow, the Rice story is an old and not even anymore smelly red herring.
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Archimid

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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #130 on: May 05, 2017, 05:52:23 AM »
TerryM, Obama has the right to openly influence whatever he wants. That's free speech and that's how great people change the world in a civilized manner. Are you really telling me that you see no difference between openly making your opinion known and covertly waging a propaganda campaign using illegally hacked information and coordinated fake news?

I just can't understand your logic or moral perspective. How is openly speaking inmoral, unethical or  illegal?

I am an energy reservoir seemingly intent on lowering entropy for self preservation.

TerryM

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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #131 on: May 05, 2017, 06:21:26 AM »
Yea
I've always found that news events that occur on a Wednesday are far too passe to discuss the following Thursday.
Short attention spans aside, it appears that Susan will be facing a subpoena. Her testimony will in fact be extracted while she's under oath, unless she pleads the 5th, which is highly unlikely.


http://www.theblaze.com/news/2017/05/04/trey-gowdy-well-subpoena-susan-rice-if-we-have-to/


From the above it appears that others beyond the senate subcommittee chair wish to hear Rice under oath. Personally I'm more curious as to why she declined the invite, (under oath) than anything she's liable to say.


That said, isn't this another example of the arrogance of Corporate Democrats? Further, if she is so divorced from reality that she actually believed she could simply refuse to testify, she was probably a terrible choice as a security adviser, let alone the US ambassador to the UN.


Terry

budmantis

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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #132 on: May 05, 2017, 07:02:13 AM »
Obama is openly influencing the French elections again. Hope this works out better than his hectoring the Brits about the danger of pulling out of the EU.
It's not as if he doesn't attempt to interfere with foreign elections, he's just not very good at it.


Terry

Hi Terry:

I read that Obama weighed in on his choice in the French election. Don't see a problem with that, just stating his opinion. How is he interfering with foreign elections?

BudM

TerryM

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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #133 on: May 05, 2017, 07:06:38 AM »
TerryM, Obama has the right to openly influence whatever he wants. That's free speech and that's how great people change the world in a civilized manner. Are you really telling me that you see no difference between openly making your opinion known and covertly waging a propaganda campaign using illegally hacked information and coordinated fake news?

I just can't understand your logic or moral perspective. How is openly speaking inmoral, unethical or  illegal?


Obama had every right to attempt to influence whatever election he wishes. I thought it was strange when he went to great lengths to insist that his earlier phone call was not an attempt to sway the French vote. That was less than truthful.


Overtly and covertly every election held has been interfered with. What made the last one unusual was that the losers blamed their loss on the influence of someone half way around the world. That probably isn't unique, but it certainly is unusual.
I've written mentioning a very few of the egregious examples of the USofA,s messing with the elections of friendly nations and of foes, and was told that just because we do it to others is no reason to excuse others from doing it to us.
Fair enough,
Would examples of other nations interfering with each other's elections be more to the point? Would examples of friendly or evil nations covertly or overtly helping Democrats, or Republicans, or Whigs, or Torys meet your moral equivalency?


Fake News, Hacked Information??? you missed "bots". These are buzz words, memes placed into the discourse in order to obfuscate, not to enlighten.
When Obama told the Brits that they'd be stripped of their trade rights - That was "Fake News". it was also an overt threat that wasn't well received. I know that occurred more than a day ago and that you consider it "Old News", not worthy of consideration. Could I point out that the election was held so long ago, back in 2016, and that the hoary mists of antiquity have wafted through, driving out that new news smell.


Get rid of Hillary's henchmen. Nominate someone better than Trump, (not too high a bar), and you may find overt and covert help pouring in from all over the world.


Terry
edit:
budm
Hope the first paragraph explains my position.


budmantis

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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #134 on: May 05, 2017, 07:10:49 AM »
The Rice stuff is a Republican red herring (did I type "bullshit"?). Don't waste neurons and time on that, Buddy.

This Democrat is curious.
Terry

Seriously Terry, I don't understand why you have an axe to grind with Susan Rice. The Republican chair asked her to testify without the ranking Democratic member even knowing. With all due respect, I think you like to argue for the sake of arguing. OTOH, I've got to say, you're pretty good at it!

Regards,

BudM

TerryM

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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #135 on: May 05, 2017, 07:16:27 AM »
The Rice stuff is a Republican red herring (did I type "bullshit"?). Don't waste neurons and time on that, Buddy.

This Democrat is curious.
Terry




Seriously Terry, I don't understand why you have an axe to grind with Susan Rice. The Republican chair asked her to testify without the ranking Democratic member even knowing. With all due respect, I think you like to argue for the sake of arguing. OTOH, I've got to say, you're pretty good at it!

Regards,

BudM


Moi???  ;)
Terry

budmantis

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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #136 on: May 05, 2017, 07:23:54 AM »

Moi???  ;)
Terry
[/quote]

Oui, Toi!

How did you know I was of French Canadian descent?

BudM

Buddy

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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #137 on: May 05, 2017, 01:43:35 PM »
The Rice stuff is a Republican red herring (did I type "bullshit"?). Don't waste neurons and time on that, Buddy.

I won't.  I know about Susan Rice.....I was "baiting him."

On a different subject.....I had previously said that both RussiaGate and global warming.  Thanks to the US House Of Representatives.....the Democrat's have a THIRD LEG to the "stool" with which to beat the Republicans:  Healthcare.

That was awfully nice of the Republicans to pass a horrible bill in the House.  We have yet to see what comes out of the Senate......and reconciled with the House.  Whatever is "finalized" several months down the road, will be "what is remembered."

The Dem's just need to remember to come to come up with SOLUTIONS as best they can (while they are the minority party).   And that applies to healthcare AND global warming.  Some of those things can be done on a statewide or regional basis.  And at the same time....remind voters of the missteps of their Republican counterparts.

 

FOX (TASS) News....."The Trump Channel.....where truth and journalism are dead."

Buddy

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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #138 on: May 05, 2017, 02:54:33 PM »
A couple things that I had noted a couple months ago:

1)  RussiaGate will make Watergate look like childsplay
2)  It will be much broader and deeper than anyone expects

Over the last few days....there has been a lot of "chatter" about that...as news of 2 grand jury's that are allegedly under way (they are) and approaching completion.  We will get corroboration in the coming days/weeks....  in the US....we apparently have smarter criminals than in some other countries.  Apparently in other countries....the criminals come forward willingly...and then you prosecute.  In the US.....we have what is called a "grand jury".  A grand jury is:

"A panel of citizens that is convened by a court to decide whether it is appropriate for the government to indict (proceed with a prosecution against) someone suspected of a crime."


It is like asking the question:  Is there enough evidence, both direct and indirect, that a crime MAY HAVE BEEN PERPETRATED.  If yes....then they go to trial.  If no....then they don't.

http://bipartisanreport.com/2017/05/04/new-reports-indicate-28-people-are-being-targeted-in-trump-investigation-details/

Allegedly there are 28 people being targeted.  This isn't surprising to me....since the type of crimes involved need a lot of people to pull them off.  You need hackers.....you need money.....you need money laundering.....you need bankers.....you need those with connections to those people, etc.  This isn't a 1973 Nixon "plumbers" deal that happened.
 
When all is said and done....it will be interesting to see just HOW MANY ARTICLES OF IMPEACHMENT there will be in the House of Representatives (in the later half of next year is my guess) when Congressmen are starting to get nervous about their upcoming election run the following year in 2018).

The process continues.........

 

FOX (TASS) News....."The Trump Channel.....where truth and journalism are dead."

Buddy

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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #139 on: May 05, 2017, 06:40:48 PM »
How many Trump campaign workers does it take to screw in a light bulb?

Apparently a LOT.... ;)

The latest one to "bite the dust"....Cory Lewandowski

http://www.palmerreport.com/opinion/quits-corey-lewandowski-foreign-agent/2592/

Boy....are the attorney's in Washington DC going to have a banner year or two.....

FOX (TASS) News....."The Trump Channel.....where truth and journalism are dead."

Buddy

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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #140 on: May 05, 2017, 10:23:59 PM »
And some you probably thought I had "gone over the deep end" when I added "TASS"..... ;)

http://bipartisanreport.com/2017/05/05/just-in-trump-administration-asks-fda-to-change-all-tvs-to-fox-news-details/

You haven't seen the half of it yet.  The next year will be one for the record books......

FOX (TASS) News....."The Trump Channel.....where truth and journalism are dead."

Buddy

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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #141 on: May 06, 2017, 02:15:29 AM »
FOX (TASS) News....."The Trump Channel.....where truth and journalism are dead."

TerryM

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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #142 on: May 06, 2017, 03:22:41 AM »
Keep your eyes....ears....AND MIND OPEN.

http://www.cnbc.com/2017/05/05/macron-campaign-says-it-is-the-victim-of-massive-coordinated-hacking-campaign-reuters.html
He hasn't even lost - yet.


You don't suppose that whoever loses in your next City Council race will claim that the Russians hacked his campaign?


We've begun what will soon be recognized as the political equivalent to "The dog ate my homework". A lie that can't be disproven, but that very few believe to be true.
I suppose it's easier than telling contributors and supporters that their faith in you was misplaced.


Terry

AbruptSLR

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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #143 on: May 06, 2017, 04:03:51 AM »
Keep your eyes....ears....AND MIND OPEN.

http://www.cnbc.com/2017/05/05/macron-campaign-says-it-is-the-victim-of-massive-coordinated-hacking-campaign-reuters.html
He hasn't even lost - yet.


You don't suppose that whoever loses in your next City Council race will claim that the Russians hacked his campaign?


We've begun what will soon be recognized as the political equivalent to "The dog ate my homework". A lie that can't be disproven, but that very few believe to be true.
I suppose it's easier than telling contributors and supporters that their faith in you was misplaced.


Terry

Just to let you know, sometimes you come across like someone trying to pose as an imaginary grand jury, who can dismiss any indication of wrong doing unless some one else does all the leg work for you.

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-39827244
« Last Edit: May 06, 2017, 04:58:43 PM by AbruptSLR »
“It is not the strongest or the most intelligent who will survive but those who can best manage change.”
― Leon C. Megginson

TerryM

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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #144 on: May 06, 2017, 08:09:24 AM »
Just to let you know, sometimes you come across like someone trying to pose as an imaginary grand jury, who can dismiss any indication of wrong doing useless some one else does all the leg work for you.

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-39827244
Not quite understanding your message.


That said, an interesting link. Wikileaks apparently not involved & a very different timetable for dumping the data than what Hillary experienced. While the DNC data was dribbled out in tiny bits over what seemed like an eternity. This data was dumped in one packet, at close to the last moment possible.
I'd assume the DNC method would be more effective, but the perpetrators may have been more assured that their dribbles wouldn't be stopped. The French job may not have trusted that Wikileaks would have been sympathetic, or perhaps their cover was so thin that they feared apprehension unless they simply dropped their bombshell and promptly closed up shop.
The NSA may legally be able to track this since, as far as we know, no American's were involved. Recent Wikileaks revelations have proven that the CIA and anyone using their lost software can leave anyone's fingerprints behind, but it's possible that whoever dug up this data doesn't have access to the CIA's tools.
Not convinced that either data dump is Russia's doing, and I am dubious that the two hacks are related. The MO's are just too far apart.


Terry
PS - Where you wrote useless did you mean unless? - if so I still don't understand your reference to "leg work". People should be willing to defend their opinions, don't you think?

Jim Pettit

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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #145 on: May 06, 2017, 03:32:01 PM »
I know there are some who shrug at Russia's increasing and unprecedented meddling in global politics and say, "Meh. What are you gonna do?". For the record, I think that's a profoundly undemocratic point of view. But it's one unfortunately held by some in the West who have benefited politically from that meddling.

Russia has made no secret of the fact that they want the West to crumble. They need the EU to disintegrate, the US to falter, NATO to be rent asunder. It's in their own best interest to push for Brexit, and to enlist the help of divisive and caustic "useful idiots" like Trump, Le Pen, and Farage to hasten the downfall of democracy everywhere. So they are working overtime to make that happen. It's understandable if not excusable why they do that. But I think it's reprehensible for those enjoying the freedoms of those democracies to turn a blind eye to Putin's accelerated campaign simply because they are getting something from it for the moment.

It seems we freedom-lovers are at a crossroads. Either we surrender to Putin's methods and allow Russia to continue choosing more of  the West's leaders and policies, or we put an immediate end to all that, and start punishing those in the West who tolerate, condone, and encourage the behavior.

I'd go with the latter.


AbruptSLR

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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #146 on: May 06, 2017, 05:22:17 PM »
Terry
PS - Where you wrote useless did you mean unless? - if so I still don't understand your reference to "leg work". People should be willing to defend their opinions, don't you think?

Terry,

Yes, I meant unless, & I corrected my post.  As to what I meant, Jim Pettit expresses much of what I meant in his post in Reply #145.  That said, by "leg work" I mean several things: (a) using deductive logic it is easy to discount publicly available evidence one bit at a time, nevertheless the FBI has already done the "leg work" to compile sufficient confidential evidence that currently two grand juries have been called w.r.t. Russiagate that they can use their inductive logic to evaluate whether there is sufficient evidence available to hold trials to determine legal criminality based on all available evidence; and (b) I am a bit tired of of watching denialists use comparable deductive logic games to avoid taking timely & effective action against climate change and to me that includes fighting against alt-right abuse of power from Putin to Trump to Le Pen to etc.

Best,
ASLR
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pileus

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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #147 on: May 06, 2017, 06:56:38 PM »
Not convinced that either data dump is Russia's doing, and I am dubious that the two hacks are related. The MO's are just too far apart.

"Vitali Kremez, director of research with New York-based cyber intelligence firm Flashpoint, told Reuters his review indicated that APT 28, a group tied to the GRU, the Russian military intelligence directorate, was behind the leak."

http://mobile.reuters.com/article/amp/idUSKBN1820BO

TerryM

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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #148 on: May 06, 2017, 09:49:41 PM »
I know there are some who shrug at Russia's increasing and unprecedented meddling in global politics and say, "Meh. What are you gonna do?". For the record, I think that's a profoundly undemocratic point of view. But it's one unfortunately held by some in the West who have benefited politically from that meddling.

Russia has made no secret of the fact that they want the West to crumble. They need the EU to disintegrate, the US to falter, NATO to be rent asunder. It's in their own best interest to push for Brexit, and to enlist the help of divisive and caustic "useful idiots" like Trump, Le Pen, and Farage to hasten the downfall of democracy everywhere. So they are working overtime to make that happen. It's understandable if not excusable why they do that. But I think it's reprehensible for those enjoying the freedoms of those democracies to turn a blind eye to Putin's accelerated campaign simply because they are getting something from it for the moment.

It seems we freedom-lovers are at a crossroads. Either we surrender to Putin's methods and allow Russia to continue choosing more of  the West's leaders and policies, or we put an immediate end to all that, and start punishing those in the West who tolerate, condone, and encourage the behavior.

I'd go with the latter.


Jim
Your entire second paragraph strikes me as fantasy bordering on paranoia. You state that it is "no secret", yet I studied Russia intensively for ~2 years and found no indication at all of any of this.
If you can't back this up with verifiable quotes I'm afraid Ill be forced to conclude that it's simply anti-Russian, anti-Putin propaganda with no basis in fact.
Should I quote Obama as rebuttal?


Terry


AbruptSLR

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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #149 on: May 06, 2017, 10:58:13 PM »
Jim
Your entire second paragraph strikes me as fantasy bordering on paranoia. You state that it is "no secret", yet I studied Russia intensively for ~2 years and found no indication at all of any of this.
If you can't back this up with verifiable quotes I'm afraid Ill be forced to conclude that it's simply anti-Russian, anti-Putin propaganda with no basis in fact.
Should I quote Obama as rebuttal?
Terry

Terry,
For someone who indicates that he is good at research, I am very surprised that you have not found any evidence of Putin's desire to undermine the West for his own benefit, when in 5 seconds I can find an article like the following entitled: "Putin’s Puppet", from the summer before the last election:

http://www.slate.com/articles/news_and_politics/cover_story/2016/07/vladimir_putin_has_a_plan_for_destroying_the_west_and_it_looks_a_lot_like.html

Extract: "Vladimir Putin has a plan for destroying the West—and that plan looks a lot like Donald Trump. Over the past decade, Russia has boosted right-wing populists across Europe. It loaned money to Marine Le Pen in France, well-documented transfusions of cash to keep her presidential campaign alive. Such largesse also wended its way to the former Italian premier Silvio Berlusconi, who profited “personally and handsomely” from Russian energy deals, as an American ambassador to Rome once put it. (Berlusconi also shared a 240-year-old bottle of Crimean wine with Putin and apparently makes ample use of a bed gifted to him by the Russian president.)

There’s a clear pattern: Putin runs stealth efforts on behalf of politicians who rail against the European Union and want to push away from NATO. He’s been a patron of Golden Dawn in Greece, Ataka in Bulgaria, and Jobbik in Hungary. Joe Biden warned about this effort last year in a speech at the Brookings Institution: “President Putin sees such political forces as useful tools to be manipulated, to create cracks in the European body politic which he can then exploit.” Ruptures that will likely multiply after Brexit—a campaign Russia’s many propaganda organs bombastically promoted.

The destruction of Europe is a grandiose objective; so is the weakening of the United States. Until recently, Putin has only focused glancing attention on American elections. Then along came the presumptive Republican nominee."

Best,
ASLR
“It is not the strongest or the most intelligent who will survive but those who can best manage change.”
― Leon C. Megginson