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SteveMDFP

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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #1050 on: August 12, 2017, 06:23:14 PM »
. . .
I assumed that Hillary was simply was simply preemptively warding off attacks that as a woman she'd be too soft if elected, until I saw her reaction to Qaddafi's death. That wasn't rehearsed & that was enough to drive me away forever.

She missed her grab for the brass ring, and I'm not disappointed.
Terry

This really makes no sense to me.  Qaddafi was a supremely brutal, evil, and dangerous man.  Cheering a death is not a spiritually evolved emotion, but if anyone's death merited such a reaction, Quaddafi would be a good candidate.  She certainly had lots of good company in her reaction.

The worth of any politician depends on the policies they pursue and their effectiveness in pursuing them.  I'd grade her prospective Presidency as probably being a grade B on the former, and perhaps an A on the latter.  Her immediate reaction to Q's death is utterly irrelevant.

I think it's wildly improbable that she'd be stupid enough to start a shooting war with Russia, and far, far less likely to start a shooting war with Iran, N Korea, or Venezuela.  We'd all be in far better shape had she won.

Jim Pettit

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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #1051 on: August 12, 2017, 07:00:48 PM »
She missed her grab for the brass ring, and I'm not disappointed.

Fair enough. But say what you will about Clinton, there is absolutely no way we would be here, not even seven months into her administration, threatening war against Venezuela and nuclear war against North Korea. We wouldn't be here with China telling us in no uncertain terms that if we dare to start any first strike BS against NK, they will have no choice but to go to war with us. We wouldn't be here with America's standing throughout the world circling the drain at a faster and faster rate. We wouldn't be here watching Chelsea given full security clearance so she could enrich herself. We wouldn't be here watching neo-Nazis violently gathering in public in her name. We wouldn't be here watching unqualified and ignorant miscreants being put in charge of America's once most-respected governmental departments. We wouldn't see a White House in complete chaos, or be subject to her drunken, insane, and incoherent Twitter babblings, or have to live with her squandering many tens of millions of taxpayer dollars so she could stay at one of her own properties instead of that "dump" she calls the White House.

Sure, Hillary is a hawk. That's one of the reasons I voted for Bernie in the primary. And as I've said, I was raked over the coals by her supporters for weeks for publishing a couple of widely-read post-election articles stating my desire that she and the Clintons just please go away for good already.

HOWEVER, I would never--ever, ever, ever--think that Trump is somehow the lesser of two evils. So when I see supposed progressives buying into unsubstantiated or debunked alt-Right theories because those theories support their own anti-Hillary stance, I want to be sick.

That's all.

AbruptSLR

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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #1052 on: August 12, 2017, 07:24:48 PM »
HOWEVER, I would never--ever, ever, ever--think that Trump is somehow the lesser of two evils. So when I see supposed progressives buying into unsubstantiated or debunked alt-Right theories because those theories support their own anti-Hillary stance, I want to be sick.

That's all.

This illustrates the tendency for both right and left-wing populist movements to ignore facts and to consequently fall under the thrall of a 'strong' populist leader who almost invariably provides dysfunctional leadership because he/she is tied to incomplete left or right biased 'facts'/dogma.
“It is not the strongest or the most intelligent who will survive but those who can best manage change.”
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AbruptSLR

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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #1053 on: August 12, 2017, 11:34:57 PM »
Mueller is keeping steady pressure on the WH on Russiagate:

Title: “Mueller Is Said to Be in Talks With White House About Interviewing Officials”

http://www.msn.com/en-us/news/politics/mueller-is-said-to-be-in-talks-with-white-house-about-interviewing-officials/ar-AApVxW6?li=BBmkt5R&ocid=spartandhp

Extract: “In a sign that the investigation into Russian interference in the 2016 presidential election will remain a continuing distraction for the White House, the special counsel, Robert S. Mueller III, is in talks with the West Wing about interviewing current and former senior administration officials, including the recently ousted White House chief of staff, Reince Priebus, according to three people briefed on the discussions.”
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AbruptSLR

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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #1054 on: August 13, 2017, 05:01:34 AM »
Senator Richard Burr acknowledges that the scope of the Senator investigation of Russian interference into the 2016 election has recently increased beyond its original scope:

Title: “Senate Inquiry Into Russian Meddling Could Wrap Up This Year, Burr Says“

http://www.msn.com/en-us/news/politics/senate-inquiry-into-russian-meddling-could-wrap-up-this-year-burr-says/ar-AApUwvS?li=AA5a8k&ocid=spartandhp

Extract: “Senator Richard Burr, the initially reluctant but now determined leader of the Senate Intelligence Committee inquiry into Russian interference in the 2016 election, said the investigation had expanded beyond its original scope based on new evidence, but he hoped to complete it this year to allow Congress to take steps to prevent future efforts at tampering by Moscow.

”What continues this investigation are the names of individuals that we didn’t know at the time, the documents that we weren’t aware of, the communications, the cables, the emails, the phone logs of individuals that we wouldn’t have thought then that we needed to interview or to look at their records,” said Mr. Burr, the North Carolina Republican who is chairman of the intelligence panel.”
“It is not the strongest or the most intelligent who will survive but those who can best manage change.”
― Leon C. Megginson

AbruptSLR

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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #1055 on: August 13, 2017, 06:10:39 PM »
I assumed that Hillary was simply was simply preemptively warding off attacks that as a woman she'd be too soft if elected, until I saw her reaction to Qaddafi's death. That wasn't rehearsed & that was enough to drive me away forever.

I presume that Hillary is largely used in this thread (about the Trump Administration & Russiagate) as a metaphor for the establishment & its corporatism; which some seem to think Trump was elected to smash.  People who think this why should ask themselves way hasn't the Trump Administration pressured the UN to end its continuing declared war against North Korea (this war has been in a truce status since the 1950's), and why is Trump threatening North Korea with fire & fury.  The truth is that Trump would prefer to replace the establishment with a new kleptocratic establishment driven not only by greed for corporate profits but also by greed for enrichment of the powerful at the expense of the weak.

In this regards see the linked article about how Trump rescinded pending rules designed specifically to fight against fossil fuel driven kleptocracies:

http://www.newyorker.com/news/daily-comment/the-trump-administration-rolls-back-anti-corruption-efforts-in-the-oil-industry

« Last Edit: August 14, 2017, 11:25:14 PM by AbruptSLR »
“It is not the strongest or the most intelligent who will survive but those who can best manage change.”
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miki

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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #1056 on: August 13, 2017, 06:19:50 PM »
Chapeau.


I presume that Hillary is largely used in this thread (about the Trump Administration & Russiagate) as a metaphor for the establishment & its corporatism; which some seem to think Trump was elected to smash.  People who think this way should ask themselves way hasn't the Trump Administration pressured the UN to end its continuing declared war against North Korea (this war has been in a truce status since the 1950's), and why is Trump threatening North Korea with fire & fury.  The truth is that Trump would prefer to replace the establishment with a new kleptocratic establishment driven not only by greed for corporate profits but also by greed for enrichment of the powerful at the expense of the weak.

In this regards see the linked article about how Trump rescinded pending rules designed specifically to fight against fossil fuel driven kleptocracies:

http://www.newyorker.com/news/daily-comment/the-trump-administration-rolls-back-anti-corruption-efforts-in-the-oil-industry

AbruptSLR

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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #1057 on: August 13, 2017, 06:39:58 PM »
For people of a certain age:

Title: "Chapeau"

http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=Chapeau

Extract: "Aside from meaning 'hat' it is also used when giving someone respect, a short way of saying 'hat off' or 'I'm so impressed, I take my hat off'."
“It is not the strongest or the most intelligent who will survive but those who can best manage change.”
― Leon C. Megginson

AbruptSLR

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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #1058 on: August 14, 2017, 10:03:21 PM »
The two linked articles discuss some of the issues associated with Mueller's investigation of the money trails associated with some of Trump's potentially corrupt business deals:

Title: "Why Robert Mueller Has Trump SoHo in His Sights"

https://www.vanityfair.com/news/2017/08/why-robert-mueller-has-trump-soho-in-his-sights

Extract: "The Russian money trail leads right through the president’s troubled project in downtown Manhattan. A series of e-mails reveals new details."

&

Title: "Trump’s Business of Corruption"

http://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2017/08/21/trumps-business-of-corruption

Extract: "What secrets will Mueller find when he investigates the President’s foreign deals?"
“It is not the strongest or the most intelligent who will survive but those who can best manage change.”
― Leon C. Megginson

Zeug Gezeugt

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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #1059 on: August 14, 2017, 10:54:09 PM »
People who think this way should ask themselves way hasn't the Trump Administration pressured the UN to end its continuing declared war against North Korea (this war has been in a truce status since the 1950's), and why is Trump threatening North Korea with fire & fury. 

The truth is Abrupt, that the neo-McCarthyist Russiagate scandal has destroyed any hope of detente with any of the US' apparent 'adversaries' by neutering Trump's only positive foreign policy and driving Congress to new heights of insanely delusional thinking. As I said at the start, you Russiaphobes are precisely the problem!

This latest from Rob Parry engages with precisely your concerns re Trump and the DPRK - https://consortiumnews.com/2017/08/12/russia-gates-fatally-flawed-logic/

Jim Pettit

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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #1060 on: August 14, 2017, 11:25:00 PM »
This latest from Rob Parry engages with precisely your concerns re Trump and the DPRK - https://consortiumnews.com/2017/08/12/russia-gates-fatally-flawed-logic/

I don't pretend to speak for others, but I have to tell you that if you could maybe quote from a more credible, less pro-Putin, rabidly anti-Hillary source than Parry, we might be inclined to listen. In the meantime, I really have no choice but to ignore such baseless nonsense...

As I said at the start, you Russiaphobes are precisely the problem!

So, it's not the fire-crazed arsonist that's in the wrong; it's whoever called 911 when they saw the flames. Got it...

AbruptSLR

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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #1061 on: August 14, 2017, 11:37:42 PM »
As I said at the start, you Russiaphobes are precisely the problem!

Maybe Donald Trump has stumbled upon the secret to a happy life (learning to live with cognitive dissonance) ::)
« Last Edit: August 15, 2017, 12:06:31 AM by AbruptSLR »
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TerryM

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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #1062 on: August 15, 2017, 01:52:31 AM »
I assumed that Hillary was simply was simply preemptively warding off attacks that as a woman she'd be too soft if elected, until I saw her reaction to Qaddafi's death. That wasn't rehearsed & that was enough to drive me away forever.

I presume that Hillary is largely used in this thread (about the Trump Administration & Russiagate) as a metaphor for the establishment & its corporatism; which some seem to think Trump was elected to smash. 
In truth I was referring to the actual, physical Hillary, not in any metaphorical sense at all. The Hillary whom I once deeply admired, but that I now see as a deeply flawed human, as well as a fatally flawed candidate.


If one searches for Hillary and Putin, setting the date to earlier than November 2016, you'll find any number of articles that expound on one or another arguments the two have had, probably dating back to the days when Bill Clinton was a big supporter of the drunken Yeltsin.
While relationships with North Korea & Venezuela may or may not have been in trouble at this stage of a Clinton Presidency, we can reasonably assume that things would be much warmer on the Russian front had Hillary succeeded.


Hillary was tasked by Obama to implement a "Reset" with Russia, a position she was less than enthusiastic of. The novelty button she presented to Lavrov said "RESET" in English, but "OVERLOAD" in Russian.


In 2010, when Bill Clinton was being paid $500,000 for a speech in Moscow, Hillary's opposition may have been muted, but by 2011 Hillary was telling the Russian people that Putin was rigging their elections. In 2012 Russia kicked USAID out of the country, leaving Hillary so flustered that she walked out of a meeting with Lavrov leaving her diplomatic papers behind her. By 2013, in $675,000 speeches to Goldman Sachs, she was advocating weaponizing America's new found fracked fossil fuel bounty as a "bludgeon against Moscow". Her comparison of Putin to Hitler in 2014 left little doubt of her intentions once the election was over.


Elections in America are binary, I'm not convinced that Trump could have won against any other Democrat. Elections never occur in a vacuum, and the circumstances surrounding this one, with the Hillary Democrats beating on their shields while Trump made dovish coos, may have had a larger effect than the pollsters realized.


Americans calling for "regime change" in Venezuela and North Korea, while complaining of undocumented, unproven interference in their own election may find little sympathy, particularly in the British Isles and other nations where electoral interference by America has become the norm.


Trump's policies don't represent the needs and wants of most Americans. Neither did Hillary's.
Terry

AbruptSLR

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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #1063 on: August 15, 2017, 04:00:52 AM »
Trump's policies don't represent the needs and wants of most Americans. Neither did Hillary's.

While I am not particularly interested in talking more about Hillary; perhaps if she becomes a minister she can help us all understand better the truth of the teaching: "Let anyone among you who is without sin be the first to throw a stone at her".


Title: "Report: Hillary Clinton is considering becoming a preacher"

https://www.aol.com/article/news/2017/08/11/report-hillary-clinton-is-considering-becoming-a-preacher/23074776/

Extract: "Hillary Clinton reportedly has interests in becoming a Methodist preacher.
According to The Atlantic, the Democratic presidential nominee told her longtime pastor, Reverend Bill Shillady, that she is considering "sharing her faith" with others."
“It is not the strongest or the most intelligent who will survive but those who can best manage change.”
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SteveMDFP

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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #1064 on: August 15, 2017, 04:50:15 AM »
. . .
Trump's policies don't represent the needs and wants of most Americans. Neither did Hillary's.
Terry

Really?  Rather than trying to divine Hillary's policy positions from a selection of anecdotes, maybe it would be more reasonable to examine actual policy statements.  The most definitive would be the party platform that she ran on.  It's here:
http://www.presidency.ucsb.edu/papers_pdf/117717.pdf

Tell me, what's wrong with it?  What's missing? 

TerryM

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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #1065 on: August 15, 2017, 11:13:18 AM »
People who think this way should ask themselves way hasn't the Trump Administration pressured the UN to end its continuing declared war against North Korea (this war has been in a truce status since the 1950's), and why is Trump threatening North Korea with fire & fury. 

The truth is Abrupt, that the neo-McCarthyist Russiagate scandal has destroyed any hope of detente with any of the US' apparent 'adversaries' by neutering Trump's only positive foreign policy and driving Congress to new heights of insanely delusional thinking. As I said at the start, you Russiaphobes are precisely the problem!

This latest from Rob Parry engages with precisely your concerns re Trump and the DPRK - https://consortiumnews.com/2017/08/12/russia-gates-fatally-flawed-logic/
Thanks for the great link!
And the comments were as intelligent as any I've found on the internet - coming from all camps. The warnings from Otis matched my own fears quite closely, but the everything is OK and pro- Hillary arguments were generally well presented, and all with little rancor.
Terry


Jim Pettit

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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #1066 on: August 15, 2017, 12:54:29 PM »
In truth I was referring to the actual, physical Hillary, not in any metaphorical sense at all. The Hillary whom I once deeply admired, but that I now see as a deeply flawed human, as well as a fatally flawed candidate.

---snip--

Trump's policies don't represent the needs and wants of most Americans. Neither did Hillary's.
Terry

Well, thank God Hillary didn't win, then. Both the United States and the entire world are today in a far more peaceful, stable, happy, and prosperous place than ever would have been possible had Trump not won. To those who had the keen foresight to not support a lawyer/professor/First Lady/US Senator/US Secretary of State, but instead helped hand a moronic, corrupt failed TV reality star both the nuclear football and the keys to the White House, I say: you have our eternal* gratitude.

Americans calling for "regime change" in Venezuela and North Korea, while complaining of undocumented, unproven interference in their own election may find little sympathy, particularly in the British Isles and other nations where electoral interference by America has become the norm.

I'm still not sure why there seems to be a disconnect for some people, but--for perhaps the thousandth time--folks aren't complaining about Russian interference in our election; they're complaining about the increasing likelihood that unpatriotic Americans illegally and with traitorous intent helped Russia with that interference.

Is it really that difficult to see the difference?

* - Or until WW3 gets underway, whichever comes first.

AbruptSLR

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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #1067 on: August 15, 2017, 06:14:03 PM »
If nothing else, the newly discovered emails (from May 2016) indicate that Manafort (& all cc'd parties) fully understood that meeting with the Russians to barter policy issues, prior to the new administration taking office, was illegal; and yet in June Manafort when ahead and met with Russians to barter on policy issues (at least for the adoption of Russian children and potentially on support in the 2016 election):

Title: "New Trump-Russia emails could establish a 'devastating' legal entanglement for Paul Manafort.

http://www.businessinsider.com/trump-russia-emails-devastating-legal-papadopoulos-paul-manafort-2017-8

Edit: Hopefully, Mueller can squeeze Manafort with this legal entanglement in order to get more information on possible collusion activities.
« Last Edit: August 15, 2017, 07:00:59 PM by AbruptSLR »
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TerryM

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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #1068 on: August 16, 2017, 12:12:34 AM »

I'm still not sure why there seems to be a disconnect for some people, but--for perhaps the thousandth time--folks aren't complaining about Russian interference in our election; they're complaining about the increasing likelihood that unpatriotic Americans illegally and with traitorous intent helped Russia with that interference.
Well I'll be damned.


I thought that when Hillary claimed she was right about "a vast Russian Conspiracy", she meant that she believed that a vast Russian Conspiracy lost her the election.
I thought that when the military types spoke of cyber-warfare being the equivalent of hot warfare, that Russia was the enemy they were drawing a bead on.


It can sometime be difficult for us foreigners to understand American political speech when you say one thing, then later kindly explain that what you said has nothing to do with what you meant, and that even if it did mean what you said it did then, it certainly doesn't mean that now, nor did it ever mean what you now know it to mean.


I'm relieved that you now, and always, blamed Trump's Team for the transgressions that they may, or may not have treasonously participated in. I hope your Congress realizes this and drops their Russian Sanctions. The sanctions that Europe finds so convenient for American fuel companies and so inconvenient for European businesses. We wouldn't want to ruffle European feathers now that Nuland is off the payroll.


Bad Bad Trump. Evil Evil Manafort. Treasonous Treasonous Son in Law. Russia was just acting in the same manner that America herself has acted in, on so many occasions.
I think?
 
I have it straight now. I now understand what you now, and always in the past have believed. - just PLEASE DON'T CHANGE IT AROUND AGAIN.


Who is on first, Who has always been on first and What has always been on second.
Terry, pointing to his digits, then scratching his head.


AbruptSLR

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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #1069 on: August 16, 2017, 04:48:50 AM »
Who is on first, Who has always been on first and What has always been on second.
Terry, pointing to his digits, then scratching his head.

Terry,
If you can't figure it out just watch the linked video.



Then once you have got it figured out, you can solve Russiagate and climate change next. ;)

Best,
ASLR
« Last Edit: August 17, 2017, 08:40:01 PM by AbruptSLR »
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TerryM

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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #1070 on: August 16, 2017, 06:06:03 AM »
Thanx ASLR


It was the catcher that always caught me up. :-\


Terry

Martin Gisser

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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #1071 on: August 16, 2017, 03:15:57 PM »
Sometimes I miss a "like" button here  :)
Some reports place Imran with Seth Rich on his final night barhopping through Washington.

"Some reports"? That sure sounds a lot like Trump's pet qualifier "Lots of people are saying." ;-)

It is definitely the belief of the fantasy-immersed Infowars/WND/Breitbart/Drudge universe that Rich and Imran were out partying together the night he was murdered--doubtless escorted to the pedophile pizza dungeon by a topless DWS, Hillary & Bill in drag, Pelosi wearing a vinyl gimp costume, with a leash held by George Soros in one hand, and a vial of sacrificial goat's blood in the other. Or something.
like, cannibalism?
(Well, heck, looks like Hillary has contracted Kuru disease at Marina Abramovic "spirit cooking" happenings:
https://conservativedailypost.com/evidence-hillary-now-confirmed-to-have-kuru-disease-from-cannibalism-proof/
)

Besides, if Roger Stone says it happened, who is Rich's family to dispute it?

Good lord. Some ostensibly on the left have such a deep-seated hatred for All Things Clinton that they've become de facto members of the Alt-Right,
Yes indeed.
hungrily devouring whatever debunked and debunkable nonsense passes for "news" in that cesspool so long as it paints the DNC/DCCC in a negative light. And thus the circle is complete.

Sigh...
"The universe is irrelevant for all practical purpose." --Florifulgurator

Rob Dekker

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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #1072 on: August 20, 2017, 06:01:44 AM »
Zeug Gezeugt said August 14, 2017, 10:54:09 PM
This latest from Rob Parry engages with precisely your concerns re Trump and the DPRK - https://consortiumnews.com/2017/08/12/russia-gates-fatally-flawed-logic/

To which Jim replied :
I don't pretend to speak for others, but I have to tell you that if you could maybe quote from a more credible, less pro-Putin, rabidly anti-Hillary source than Parry, we might be inclined to listen. In the meantime, I really have no choice but to ignore such baseless nonsense...

Then Terry comes in with :
This latest from Rob Parry engages with precisely your concerns re Trump and the DPRK - https://consortiumnews.com/2017/08/12/russia-gates-fatally-flawed-logic/
Thanks for the great link!
And the comments were as intelligent as any I've found....

Clearly, different opinions about the same article.
I've read Parry's articles on MH17, and they are terrible.
There is a double edged sword in every sentence.
Let's just take the first sentence of the article you both refer to :
By pushing the Russia-gate “scandal” and neutering President Trump’s ability to conduct diplomacy, Democrats and Congress have encouraged his war-making side on North Korea, writes Robert Parry.

Even on that single sentence, it's hard to know where to start weeding the facts from the opinions.

Parry does that in ALL of his sentences in ALL of his articles.

His articles are just so pro-Putin and so against the truth and ignoring so much evidence that I stopped reading Parry a long time ago.
« Last Edit: August 20, 2017, 06:13:23 AM by Rob Dekker »

Zeug Gezeugt

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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #1073 on: August 20, 2017, 10:43:21 AM »
Yes, best not to read experienced journalists that contradict one's preconceived opinion, we should start a ban list to cleanse this thread of wrong views!

Or ... maybe you Russophobes could find the courage to allow yourselves to question what you believe and why you may hold those beliefs. You might even go so far as to allow yourselves to contemplate the possibility that your still as yet evidence free Russophobic Russiagate beliefs are base propaganda manufactured by US political, intelligence and media elites to suit their own interests, largely those paid for by the perpetual war party, and most certainly not yours!

Russiagate is a dead horse flogged to a creamy paté and it's really starting to rot from the head now. And that stink is getting in the way of the fact that there is so much more to Trump's presidency that is worth fighting against instead of idiotically screaming yourselves hoarse that "THE RUSSIANS ARE COMING!", to wit:

Dismissing anthropogenic climate change!
Resurgence of Civil-Asset Forfeiture
Supporting the private prison industry
Empowering federal prosecutors
Working to sabotage the Iran nuclear deal
Going out of his way to equate Nazis with anti-Nazi protestors
Undermining net neutrality
Subverting scientific independence at the EPA
Sticking up for Wall Street and bad-mouthing the Consumer Financial Protection Bureau

I still personally believe that you Russophobes here are disturbingly deluded and logically challenged, there is no evidence of Russian interference whatsoever, none, nada, so I have no idea what for example Rob Dekker means above about Parry being "so against the truth and ignoring so much evidence"... There is no evidence Rob!

But if you keep repeating these factoids to yourselves as you do here, and not read or contemplate dissenting views, you will convince yourselves of your truthiness even without any actual, empirical evidence.

Anyways, I understand you all have quite a bit invested in not being seen to be delusional chumps for the US war industry so I won't go on about it. For anyone else here interested in other perspectives here's 3 good ones!

Margaret Kimberley - Freedom Rider: The Root and Russophobia

Finian Cunningham - As Russia-Gate Story Stalls, Cue Trump Neo-Nazi Scandal

Rob Parry - Russia-gate’s Evidentiary Void
« Last Edit: August 20, 2017, 12:02:03 PM by Zeug Gezeugt »

Neven

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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #1074 on: August 20, 2017, 03:18:25 PM »
There's no need to be so belligerent about it. 'You Russophobes' is not much better than 'Kremlin puppets', because things simply aren't that black and white. Let's not polarize too much here, as I believe most people here are on the same side.

Nevertheless, I'm glad to see that Trump is shooting himself in the foot so badly (with an automatic gun  ;D ) that his removal doesn't solely hinge on the Russiagate-stuff. With the investigation slowly heading towards regular old corruption instead of the flimsy collusion allegations, things were already looking better on that front IMO.

It's much better if it's something like the neonazi-scandal that makes the bell toll for Trump than Russiagate, because I still don't believe that Trump won the election because of what the Russians did or didn't do. I think it's because of a large part of the electorate being completely fed up with the establishment, offering a golden opportunity for outsider populists.

In that sense it's going to be very interesting to see what happens post-Trump. And extremely important too. Will the bi-partisan establishment get full control again?
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Zeug Gezeugt

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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #1075 on: August 20, 2017, 11:09:18 PM »
Hi Neven,

and fair enough ... sorry to all the Russoph.. doh! I mean great (if slightly deluded) guys here.

Trouble is I'm not too fussed about Trump, like all US presidents of the last half century apart from Poppy Bush he's just a powerless front man for the state and corporate interests that run the war machine. If these talking heads get in the way they're either impeached (Nixon, Clinton and probably Trump) or shot (JFK and Reagan) or compromise their supposedly 'core' values (Obama and Trump). Whatever happens the endless global war continues.

This new round of McCarthyism in the US however is what I find really troubling, rather frightening actually. The ease with which the populace can be whipped up into a completely delusional war frenzy against a nuclear armed competitor is for me highly disturbing, especially in this internet age of the free transmission of information. 

Russiagate is evidence free, in your face, blatant war propaganda from a 1950's playbook. What is happening in the US that this sort of mass delusion actually gains traction in the 21st C!?

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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #1076 on: August 21, 2017, 12:18:34 AM »
I don't know.

First of all, being deluded is part of the human condition, I fear.

Second of all, I can understand that when a sociopathic idiot/reality TV star becomes the president of your country, you want to get rid of him by any means necessary. Which perhaps makes you willing to believe many things, especially if you place trust in corporate media. Each one of us believes things for a reason, most of the time unbeknownst to ourselves.

Third, maybe there is such a thing as Russiagate, with Trump colluding with the Russians to help him win the election. There's not enough evidence, either way. But it seems this is now becoming irrelevant, and I wonder if we'll ever hear from it again, if Trump resigns or gets kicked out.

But as I believe Trump is just a symptom of a much larger problem, I'm more interested to see where the next battle will be fought. The outcome of that battle probably hinges on what is going to happen within the Democratic Party. Will the American people demand the separation of corporation and state?
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logicmanPatrick

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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #1077 on: August 21, 2017, 01:31:05 AM »
In case you missed it -

Members of Russia's FSB have been arrested on charges of treason for passing cyber security information to Americans.

From a Daily Beast article -
Did a Mole-Who-Must-Not-Be-Named Leak Plot to Elect Trump?
A brave lawyer defending people the Russian government accuses of treason says the case of cyber experts charged with working for the CIA is about the toughest he’s seen

MOSCOW—For the first time in his two decades defending people accused of treason, Ivan Pavlov has come across a case he says he truly has trouble getting his head around. Everything about it is a guessing game for the defense lawyer, including the charges against his client, whose name he is not allowed to mention in public.

Speaking at his office in St. Petersburg, under a photograph of President Barack Obama shaking his hand, Pavlov, 46, explained to The Daily Beast that the arrest in Russia last December of accused cyber spies is heavy with high-profile politics.

“This is a dangerous case for everybody, including the FSB investigators, attorneys and journalists,” said Pavlov.



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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #1078 on: August 21, 2017, 01:40:42 AM »
I find it fascinating that someone can say there is not enough evidence to prove that RussiaGate included collusion between the Trump campaign and Russia.   Neven... could you go ahead and forward the link to Muellers report?  I'm afraid that in my haste I must have missed it.  Either that....or you are much better connected than I am.

Further.....the "evidence" (the dribbles we get from various investigative reporters) CONTINUES TO GROW.  Every time a Trumpian has said they didnt have contacts with Russians....it turns out they are lying.  An increasing number of real estate transactions have the stench of  money laundering between Trump Inc and Russians.

I have to laugh.....I feel like Bill Murray in that old film Groundhog Day.  Every week....somebody has to explain to those who think that RussiaGate is somehow "just smoke and mirrors".....that the investigation isn't over.  I suspect it is not even close to being over.  Foreign banks to get information from....HUNDREDS of corporations/partnerships to look at......years of complex individual and coporate tax returns to look at.....probably 100 people or more to interview.

As I said 6 months ago or so.....this process could stretch out past the time frame of the Nixon fiasco because this is so much more complex.

But I will look forward to saying the same thing next week...when it is Groundhog Day yet once again.🙈
« Last Edit: August 21, 2017, 03:29:26 PM by Buddy »
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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #1079 on: August 21, 2017, 01:50:28 AM »
I'm sorry, I didn't express myself accurately. I meant to say that we still haven't seen the evidence. I've been a bit suspicious ever since the WMDs in Iraq stuff. But maybe there is conclusive evidence that amounts to proof, and we'll get to know about it in a normal way, not via some leak from some intelligence agency.

And yes, of course, I'm sure there has been lots of corruption going on between Trump and foreign oligarchs.  I just don't know about the 'collusion'. Besides, can someone explain to me the difference between Russia and Saudi Arabia/Israel? Why are the latter allowed so much overt influence over American politics?

That's what has bothered me most about the whole Russiagate thing. That a special standard is set for ugly Trump that doesn't apply to pretty politicians. They're all ugly and corrupt.
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Tor Bejnar

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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #1080 on: August 21, 2017, 04:46:53 AM »
I think part of it, Neven, it that it is legal for foreigners (that is, foreigners to the USA) to influence USA politics, but not for them to influence USA elections.  I don't think it is illegal for Americans to influence other countries elections, but it is for them to do it here.  Yes, double standard and all that!
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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #1081 on: August 21, 2017, 06:49:16 AM »
Remember how this all began with accusations that Trump had paid prostitutes to pee on a bed in a Moscow hotel, purportedly because Bill and Hillary had once slept there?


Would anyone care to give their opinion on the likelihood of this heinous event ever to having occurred?


Terry
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Sorry, but I may not reply in a timely manner as I've been out of town and internet access is restricted.

Neven

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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #1082 on: August 21, 2017, 07:16:12 AM »
I wouldn't put anything past Trump, but that one clearly had Democratic fingerprints all over it.

I think part of it, Neven, it that it is legal for foreigners (that is, foreigners to the USA) to influence USA politics, but not for them to influence USA elections.  I don't think it is illegal for Americans to influence other countries elections, but it is for them to do it here.  Yes, double standard and all that!

Thanks, Tor, I understand what you mean. But in my view, if you influence USA politics, you influence USA elections. It looks like it's okay to influence USA elections if you strike a 350 billion dollar arms deal. And to hell with human rights and the population of Yemen.
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NevB

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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #1083 on: August 21, 2017, 08:23:36 AM »
Wasn't it a Republican that commissioned the Steele investigation ?

In 2011, Glenn Simpson, along with two other former Journal reporters, launched Fusion GPS, in Washington, D.C. The firm’s activities, according to the terse, purposefully oblique statement on its Web site, centered on “premium research, strategic intelligence, and due diligence.”

In September 2015, as the Republican primary campaign was heating up, he was hired to compile an opposition-research dossier on Donald Trump. Who wrote the check? Simpson, always secretive, won’t reveal his client’s identity. However, according to a friend who had spoken with Simpson at the time, the funding came from a “Never Trump” Republican and not directly from the campaign war chests of any of Trump’s primary opponents.


Simpson, as fellow journalists remembered, smelled fresh red meat. And anyway, after all he had discovered, he’d grown deeply concerned by the prospect of a Trump presidency. So he found Democratic donors whose checks would keep his oppo research going strong. And he made a call to London, to a partner at Orbis he had worked with in the past, an ex-spy who knew where all the bodies were buried in Russia, and who, as the wags liked to joke, had even buried some of them.

https://www.vanityfair.com/news/2017/03/how-the-explosive-russian-dossier-was-compiled-christopher-steele


This is what was initially reported at the time, how reliable this is we just don't know and may never know.

If this was in fact instigated by a "Never Trump Republican" it seems rather unfair to blame the Democrats for picking this up. Why wouldn't they and if this is what was presented to them they would in fact be negligent not to pursue it to the end. (Negligent both to their own cause and also to US democracy).

Also from what we have seen of Trumps character would it be hard to believe that this could be true? I don't know what others think but I wouldn't be the least bit surprised, yet without having the tapes a healthy skepticism is of coarse warranted.

I hope that adds a little light, now it's back to popcorn an obscurity for me.

Also I can't help adding just one last comment. Would anyone believe this for a moment if this accusation was aimed at Obama ? 










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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #1084 on: August 21, 2017, 09:12:51 AM »
Also I can't help adding just one last comment. Would anyone believe this for a moment if this accusation was aimed at Obama ?

No, not even if it was true. I mean, he received the Nobel Peace Prize, even though he expanded the drone program and waged war in seven countries. He also kept Gitmo open, bailed out the banks and set up a Republican health care programme. Not to mention increasing surveillance and diminishing privacy rights.

But we all remember him for the celebrity parties in the White House, the book deal and the 0.5 million Wall Street speeches. Because, you know, everyone does it.

And people wonder why Trump managed to win the election. Trust me, Russia didn't have to do all that much. It was all handed on a silver platter. Sometimes I think it was done on purpose.
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budmantis

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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #1085 on: August 21, 2017, 10:50:37 AM »
Also I can't help adding just one last comment. Would anyone believe this for a moment if this accusation was aimed at Obama ?

No, not even if it was true. I mean, he received the Nobel Peace Prize, even though he expanded the drone program and waged war in seven countries. He also kept Gitmo open, bailed out the banks and set up a Republican health care programme. Not to mention increasing surveillance and diminishing privacy rights.

But we all remember him for the celebrity parties in the White House, the book deal and the 0.5 million Wall Street speeches. Because, you know, everyone does it.

And people wonder why Trump managed to win the election. Trust me, Russia didn't have to do all that much. It was all handed on a silver platter. Sometimes I think it was done on purpose.

FWIW, the Nobel committee awarded the prize early in Obama's tenure as President. I think they were making a political statement by selecting him and I don't believe he was deserving of the prize.

Regarding Gitmo, it was his stated intention upon his first inauguration to close it within one year, which of course didn't happen, but not for lack of trying. He did manage to reduce the inmate level considerably.

The "Republican" health care program was voted down by all Republicans and ended up barely passing despite large Democratic majorities. Single payer would definitely have been better but it never would have passed.

As far as bailing out the banks, that was already underway as a result of a Republican congress and President that signed the "TARP" bill into law in the fall of 2008, before the presidential election took place.

Sure, he was and remains a media darling but he does deserve some credit IMHO.

BudM

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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #1086 on: August 21, 2017, 10:51:14 AM »
This raises the question of how we assess their true characters.

I admit I was in part swayed by watching the behavior of Trump while my wife was watching the apprentice and of listening to Obama whenever he spoke. To me this gave some sense of their true nature. I find it hard to believe that Obama could fake his apparent spontaneous warmth and intelligence while Trump appeared to me to be exactly the sort of narcissistic, pussy grabbing pee watching creep that he is accused of being.   

Yes the glimpses we get to see are mostly highly choreographed but this is what we have without delving deeply into the broader complexities of how policy is made and executed.

To respond directly to your post, this personal opinion of mine doesn't go anywhere near excusing Obama for this critique of yours below and it's not meant to, it's more an discussion of how opinions are made and what it is that influences our opinion.   

No, not even if it was true. I mean, he received the Nobel Peace Prize, even though he expanded the drone program and waged war in seven countries. He also kept Gitmo open, bailed out the banks and set up a Republican health care programme. Not to mention increasing surveillance and diminishing privacy rights.

I don't have the depth of knowledge or time required to respond meaningfully to this.

I guess then the remaining questions I have are:

1) Is there any value in judging these politicians on what we have seen of them in the media ?
2) If so is it then safe to believe Trump could be a pee porn star and that it's not conceivable that Obama could be ?

Are you more inclined to believe that what we have seen and heard is of no value at all in assessing character and then that Obama is comfortable to bomb and kill just to enjoy the experience of being the most powerful person on the plant ?

I hope this isn't too tiresome for you, I don't write much here partly because I find it hard to succinctly express what I have to say about what can be a complex issue.



 

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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #1087 on: August 21, 2017, 12:07:42 PM »
Remember how this all began with accusations that Trump had paid prostitutes to pee on a bed in a Moscow hotel, purportedly because Bill and Hillary had once slept there?

Terry,

First, it was reportedly a bed that former President Barack Obama and first lady Michelle Obama had slept on (not Bill & Hillary).  Let the history wash over you.

Second, per the linked article, why would Trump say that Comey tried to use the "Golden Shower" dossier as leverage unless Comey thought it had some substance (or alternately that Trump is a pathological liar)?

Title: "Trump: Comey Used ‘Golden Shower’ Dossier As Leverage"

http://www.newsweek.com/golden-shower-gate-trump-dossier-comey-639600

Extract: "President Donald Trump breathed new life into one of the oddest political scandals in the country’s history Wednesday when he alleged to The New York Times that former FBI Director James Comey may have tried to use the so-called “Golden Shower” dossier as leverage over him.

The memo was generated by former British spy Christopher Steele, and, among other accusations, it contained a wild claim that Trump once hired prostitutes to urinate in front of him on a bed that former President Barack Obama and first lady Michelle Obama had slept on at the Moscow Ritz-Carlton. The report claimed that a video existed of the alleged incident, but no proof has surfaced to date."
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Neven

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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #1088 on: August 21, 2017, 02:52:03 PM »
I don't have the depth of knowledge or time required to respond meaningfully to this.

I guess then the remaining questions I have are:

1) Is there any value in judging these politicians on what we have seen of them in the media ?
2) If so is it then safe to believe Trump could be a pee porn star and that it's not conceivable that Obama could be ?

Are you more inclined to believe that what we have seen and heard is of no value at all in assessing character and then that Obama is comfortable to bomb and kill just to enjoy the experience of being the most powerful person on the plant ?

I hope this isn't too tiresome for you, I don't write much here partly because I find it hard to succinctly express what I have to say about what can be a complex issue.

It is somewhat tiresome (although paradoxically, I mostly write when I'm tired and/or frustrated about other things) and I also try not to to write too much, as I have a responsibility as Forum Admin, and I firmly believe that I'm a fool.

Let me just say that Trump is obviously 100 times worse than Obama, but on the other hand, I personally set the bar 100 times higher for Obama. Trump is a clown riling everyone up, Obama sweet-talks everybody to sleep. They're both hypocrites in my opinion, and each in their own way they're equally bad. IMO.

I'm not an American, but I'd like to see a US president who really means what he says and acts on it as much as he can. And who, when he can't, says he's sorry he couldn't make all his promises come true because there is simply too much resistance.

That's a winning strategy in the long term, and that long term may be shorter than many think, given how fed up a lot of people are with the status quo.
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Gray-Wolf

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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #1089 on: August 21, 2017, 05:10:54 PM »

That's a winning strategy in the long term, and that long term may be shorter than many think, given how fed up a lot of people are with the status quo.

I'm from the UK and our last , 'snap' election showed both how fed up folk are with the status quo but also that there is an alternative to failed Neo Liberal policies.

America threw their hope under the bus in favour of Hilary ( quite unfairly iMHO) so ,to me at least, change will arrive from outside the two main parties as folk unite behind a person pushing for a fairer society that favours the many and not the few...... and i think I know just the man for the job! :)
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AbruptSLR

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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #1090 on: August 21, 2017, 05:26:10 PM »
America threw their hope under the bus in favour of Hilary ( quite unfairly iMHO) so ,to me at least, change will arrive from outside the two main parties as folk unite behind a person pushing for a fairer society that favours the many and not the few...... and i think I know just the man for the job! :)

Who needs to wait to learn the facts (from Mueller's investigation) when each and every one of us already knows what he/she wants (ranging from an alt-right to an alt-left solution and very thing in between)?
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Archimid

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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #1091 on: August 21, 2017, 06:00:16 PM »

No, not even if it was true. I mean, he received the Nobel Peace Prize, even though he expanded the drone program and waged war in seven countries. He also kept Gitmo open, bailed out the banks and set up a Republican health care programme. Not to mention increasing surveillance and diminishing privacy rights.


He received the Nobel peace price for the accomplishment of being the first black president of the US. That was not a small achievement as current events clearly illustrate. For that accomplishment he faced the most racist and locked down congress in history, they even stole a Supreme Court nomination from him.

Even so, he took a country in  the middle of a depression with two full wars. At the end of term the economy was growing and the two wars were largely scaled back.  Without him things like the Paris agreement and the world wide renewable energy explosion would have been impossible.

That the one good thing about Trump's presidency, when he is done destroying the US, Obama will look like a veritable genius. (except for the racists, they will convince themselves Obama is a muslim from Kenya regardless of what happens.)
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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #1092 on: August 21, 2017, 10:40:55 PM »
Re: [OFFTOPIC]

At the end of Obama's term, it was only the rich who had recovered from the recession. I would elaborate, but i think we want another thread for the recession, rather than this one.

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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #1093 on: August 22, 2017, 06:53:04 PM »
Donnie really went after Russia last night for supporting the Taliban didn't he?  Uhhhhhhhhhhh no.  In fact......he didn't even mention them.  The bromance with Vlad continues.....❤️

By the way......I guess some people haven't noticed that housing prices have recovered since the 2009 - 2011 housing bottom (some regions bottomed early....some later in the US).   And most middle income people have most of their wealth tied up in their house.  That damn Obama......its all his "fault".😉
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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #1094 on: August 23, 2017, 02:40:37 AM »
Re: OFFTOPIC

I have begun a thread called "Economic Inequality" in this section to discuss that topic.

sidd

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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #1095 on: August 23, 2017, 02:46:10 PM »
For what it's worth: whether Obama's time in office was a resounding, unparalleled success or a profound and abysmal failure has absolutely no bearing whatsoever on whether or how much Trump and his people violated the law.

Likewise, whether the United States has in the past engaged in shifty and underhanded policies to unduly influence elections in other countries has absolutely no bearing whatsoever on whether or how much Trump and his people violated the law.

Likewise, whether the Democratic Party is ruled by out-of-touch elitists and moneyed snobs has absolutely no bearing whatsoever on whether or how much Trump and his people violated the law.

Likewise, persistently repeating the term "neo-McCarthyism" has absolutely no bearing whatsoever on whether or how much Trump and his people violated the law.

Robert Mueller has a large and formidably-experienced team looking up and down many avenues. Now, some have speculated that since Mueller has announced nothing yet, there must be nothing there, but that's simply not how any criminal investigation has EVER worked. We DO know that high-ranking members of Trump's team colluded with what they thought to be Russian government officials to gather information that would hurt Clinton. That alone is enough to disqualify much of Trump's high command, and it's also FAR more than enough to warrant the time and money a thorough investigation takes.

My guess for the past several months has been that Trump will resign rather than submit to the indignity and humiliation of being forcefully ejected from office. But I wonder whether he knows that even were he to quit the investigation would continue in some form or other...

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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #1096 on: August 23, 2017, 04:45:54 PM »
Jim
You sound as though you will be willing to take Mueller's findings at face value. Are there any examples from the past that you use to base this on? - or perhaps, like me, you'll hear what Mueller comes up with, but take it with a very large dose of skepticism.
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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #1097 on: August 23, 2017, 05:59:00 PM »
Jim
You sound as though you will be willing to take Mueller's findings at face value. Are there any examples from the past that you use to base this on? - or perhaps, like me, you'll hear what Mueller comes up with, but take it with a very large dose of skepticism.
Terry

For much the same reason I am willing to rely on ice metrics from groups such as PIOMAS, NSIDC, and JAXA, rather than making a trip to the Arctic myself with a tape measure, I am willing to trust in the verifiable information provided by Mueller and his team when the report is released. The way I see it:

1) Mueller is a Republican.
2) Mueller has a long and storied reputation as a man of great character, a man respected for his integrity.
3) Mueller isn't a publicity hound like Ken Starr.
4) Mueller has filled his team with people with integrity equal to his own, people willing to sacrifice personal gain and to put their careers on hold to help get at the truth.
5) Mueller has absolutely nothing to gain--politically, financially, or otherwise--by overstating or manufacturing the case against Trump. In fact, he has his entire reputation riding on his honesty here. That's a supreme motivation.

Simply put, Mueller can be trusted. Where he and Trump disagree on the facts, we'll know at least one of them is lying--and based on the comparative credibility of the two men, I'll give the benefit of the doubt to Mueller.

I look forward to Mueller's report if/when it becomes available, and that holds true whether the evidence he presents is incriminating or exculpatory.

Nixon said we Americans have a right to know whether our President is a crook. He was right.

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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #1098 on: August 23, 2017, 08:15:52 PM »
+1 to 1-5, those reasons are a proper base for an assessment of this kind.
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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #1099 on: August 23, 2017, 08:37:40 PM »
Who cares about Russiagate. In the next 5 years the world population will grow by something between 500 and 600 million people. Most of them in places where people are already running from in large numbers. Most of them will end up in places like the US and Canada. And they will all support the left wing. What will be the impact of that on the artic sea ice melt, and on things like US aquifers. Because many are already in a bad shape. And after 8 years Obama, you can be sure they will all come.