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Author Topic: The Russiagate conspiracy theory  (Read 1120051 times)

AbruptSLR

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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #1400 on: October 20, 2017, 01:23:08 AM »
If a Machiavellian type wants to do something wrong, but doesn't want to be held accountable, he/she (Don Jr/Kellyanne) just needs plausible deniability, such as by retweeting Russian troll farm tweets:

Title: "Trump Campaign Staffers Pushed Russian Propaganda Days Before the Election"

https://www.thedailybeast.com/trump-campaign-staffers-pushed-russian-propaganda-days-before-the-election

Extract: "Kellyanne Conway and Donald Trump Jr. pushed messages from an account operated from Russia’s ‘troll farm’—including allegations of voter fraud a week before Election Day."
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AbruptSLR

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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #1401 on: October 20, 2017, 03:00:11 AM »
The linked article makes it clear that this Russian uranium deal is much ado about nothing:

Title: "Republicans are freaking out about a new report tying Hillary Clinton to a Russian uranium deal"

http://www.businessinsider.com/republicans-trump-uramium-one-deal-hillary-clinton-2017-10

“It is not the strongest or the most intelligent who will survive but those who can best manage change.”
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Rob Dekker

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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #1402 on: October 20, 2017, 05:31:51 AM »
The linked article makes it clear that this Russian uranium deal is much ado about nothing

Indeed.
It's kind of funny to see propaganda artists like Jimmy Dore and this guy Stefan Molyneux (Google him on "climate change") almost foaming around the mouth resurrecting this zombie myth that just does not want to die. There was even a tweet from Trump today trying to revitalize it :

Quote
"Uranium deal to Russia, with Clinton help and Obama Administration knowledge, is the biggest story that Fake Media doesn't want to follow!"

The story packs so many myths and false statements and conspiracy theories in one that it is hard to even know where to begin.

Not to mention that it was already debunked two years ago.

Martin Gisser already pointed to this fact checker :
http://www.snopes.com/hillary-clinton-uranium-russia-deal/
who flagged it as FALSE two years ago.
And politifact.com has a series of debunking posts, since this thing keeps popping up, consistently flagging it as MOSTLY FALSE :
http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter/statements/2016/jun/30/donald-trump/donald-trump-inaccurately-suggests-clinton-got-pai/
http://www.politifact.com/wisconsin/statements/2016/sep/30/donald-trump/nuclear-claim-donald-trump-says-hillary-clinton-ga/
http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter/article/2017/mar/28/fact-checking-donald-trumps-tweets-about-hillary-c/
and then we have the Washington Post fact-check :
https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/fact-checker/wp/2016/10/26/the-facts-behind-trumps-repeated-claim-about-hillary-clintons-role-in-the-russian-uranium-deal/?utm_term=.feb52463bfd2
which labels it with a whopping 4 Pinocchios.

This story is a perfect example of Potholers first law :

“Myths are created much faster than they can be debunked.”

And in cases like this these myths keep popping up, no matter how often we debunk them.



The only issue I find disturbing is that various ASIF posters still fall for this kind of Clinton/Obama smearing propaganda.
« Last Edit: October 20, 2017, 07:13:15 AM by Rob Dekker »
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Rob Dekker

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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #1403 on: October 20, 2017, 07:06:25 AM »
It may be that there's a successful disinformation campaign to smear people like Obama and the Clintons, but isn't the reason it's so successful that there is something there?

No Neven, it does not work like that.

Many smear campaigns have been very successful (remember the ClimateGate "Hide the decline" myth, for one ?), but are utterly false.

You ALWAYS have to CHECK THE FACTS or at the very least check the facts as presented by the fact checkers. It does not take much time. If you object to the facts that the fact checkers present then let's discuss that right here, but please don't blindly push out some dude on youtube and claim he has a point without presenting any evidence.
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AbruptSLR

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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #1404 on: October 20, 2017, 12:49:01 PM »
While some here are busy questioning Corporate Democrats, it is good to remember the role of the establishment GOP for facilitating the success of Trump's bad behavior during the 2016 election (including wildly successful voter suppression) and by defending Trump's bad behavior post election (including Nunes etc).

See:

Title: "Republicans were wildly successful at suppressing voters in 2016"

https://thinkprogress.org/2016-a-case-study-in-voter-suppression-258b5f90ddcd/

Extract: "Three GOP-controlled states demonstrate the effectiveness of disenfranchising the opposition.
...
Three such states serve as case studies for the effectiveness of these voting restrictions: Wisconsin, North Carolina, and Florida."

&

Title: "Devin Nunes, the congressman who nearly derailed the House’s investigation into Russia, is blaming Democrats"

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/the-fix/wp/2017/05/30/devin-nunes-the-congressman-who-nearly-derailed-the-houses-investigation-into-russia-is-blaming-democrats/?utm_term=.b9ccc4a9ee8b

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Buddy

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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #1405 on: October 20, 2017, 01:58:59 PM »
Donnie himself is involved in interviewing US Justice candidates for open positions in Manhatten and Brooklyn.  Remember....Donnie is "all in".  So...from the beginning he knew he would have to try and "control" all branches if government.  That is why Donnie was so upset with Sessions recusing himself.

This will continue....and as I have noted before...we will undoubtedly see some RussiaGate issues pushed to the Supreme Court....which the Republicans now control with Justice Gorsich.

The REAL fireworks haven't started yet.  Moron will do anything to stay in power....and he has SOME of the players in place to help him try to do that (Sessions, Gorsich. Paul Ryan, McConnel, etc).

And if Donnie has to start a war to get the powers he wants....he will do that.  I look for Donnie to put more pressure on "wrapping up this fiasco investigation" in coming months...and especially in his state of the union speech to Congress in January (Nixon did the same thing in January 1974 if you watched the CNN special on Watergate).

In politics.....like in hockey and other things in life....look to where the puck is GOING TO BE, not just where it is NOW.




« Last Edit: October 20, 2017, 07:12:55 PM by Buddy »
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Susan Anderson

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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #1406 on: October 20, 2017, 06:23:04 PM »
About the takeover of US courts, this is a useful article: The Conservative Pipeline to the Supreme Court: With the Federalist Society, Leonard Leo has reared a generation of originalist élites. The selection of Neil Gorsuch is just his latest achievement.
https://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2017/04/17/the-conservative-pipeline-to-the-supreme-court

Susan Anderson

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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #1407 on: October 20, 2017, 06:25:09 PM »
I'm putting this in a separate post because I know there are people on this forum who are convinced that my position on this is just short of "evil". I can't not say it, as I find the success of this line of attack  dangerous and profoundly disturbing.

For a good example of clever and (possibly innocent) wholesale buy-in to the Russian/Assange/HillaryHateTM trolling, if you have the stomach for it, please take a look (over 7,000 "votes" on neutral platform Medium. https://medium.com/@caityjohnstone/hillary-clinton-just-told-five-blatant-lies-about-wikileaks-f463d66b63ef

The sad thing is that I hear this kind of thing from a range of people who should know better. They're eager to throw out the majority of Democrats now in office, anyone who is a successful fundraiser or makes any kind of compromise to get things done. I am, as I said elsewhere, not overly fond of Hillary, and fully aware of her flaws, but I also took the trouble to read her plans and platform, and they're not at all what haters claim.

TerryM

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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #1408 on: October 20, 2017, 07:03:48 PM »
The linked article makes it clear that this Russian uranium deal is much ado about nothing:

Title: "Republicans are freaking out about a new report tying Hillary Clinton to a Russian uranium deal"

http://www.businessinsider.com/republicans-trump-uramium-one-deal-hillary-clinton-2017-10


ASLR
You may want to check the ownership of your source. See how many articles they've published that are anti CIA, pro Russian, anti Israel, pro China or anti Ukraine.
Their history, from atop the Berlin wall may surprise you.
Terry

sidd

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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #1409 on: October 20, 2017, 07:16:37 PM »
Emptywheel has another article on the Steele dossier:

https://www.emptywheel.net/2017/10/19/in-defense-of-a-trump-tweet/

In general, I find Wheeler does careful work, though I do not always agree.

sidd

Susan Anderson

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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #1410 on: October 20, 2017, 07:20:06 PM »
I wanted to get more information from a reasonable source, since I don't fully understand the issues on this deal, and I don't trust Republicans or Fox News to begin to tell the truth, and the in-crowd on the left are too eager to condemn. Here: https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/the-fix/wp/2017/10/19/making-sense-of-russia-uranium-and-hillary-clinton/?utm_term=.d00d27768725

Quote
This is a key point. In response to the Hill's report, the Senate Judiciary Committee has asked the agencies that signed off on the deal to disclose what, if anything, they knew about the FBI's investigation. If it were to turn out that Clinton and others were aware of the FBI's findings — and ignored them — that could be difficult to explain.

But there is reason to doubt that Clinton would have been in the know. The FBI investigation was still four years from completion at the time that the uranium deal was approved. (One Russian official, Vadim Mikerin, was indicted in 2014 and later sentenced to four years in prison.)

Then there's this:

    Ronald Hosko, who served as the assistant FBI director in charge of criminal cases when the investigation was underway, told the Hill he did not recall ever being briefed about Mikerin's case by the counterintelligence side of the bureau, despite the criminal charges that were being lodged.

    “I had no idea this case was being conducted,” a surprised Hosko said in an interview.

    Likewise, major congressional figures were also kept in the dark.

    Former Rep. Mike Rogers (R-Mich.), who chaired the House Intelligence Committee during the time the FBI probe was being conducted, told the Hill that he had never been told anything about the Russian nuclear corruption case, even though many fellow lawmakers had serious concerns about the Obama administration's approval of the Uranium One deal.

If people like Hosko and Rogers did not know about the FBI's investigation, then Clinton probably didn't, either.

sidd

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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #1411 on: October 20, 2017, 07:27:50 PM »
Re: Wikileaks

Wikileaks recently dumped a large corpus on Russian telecom cooperation with Russian law enforcement, something like CALEA access in the USA. Unfortunately the documents are in Russian. I would like a link to a translation if possible. Online translation seems quite unsatisfactory.

The reason for my interest is the recent US intelligence warning on Kaspersky antivirus (which detects NSA hacking tools among others) The allegation is that Russian intelligence has access to Kaspersky telemetry from installed instances, but whether covertly or overtly is not clear. I am currently wondering if the telecom dump might illuminate Russian intelligence access.

sidd

TerryM

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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #1412 on: October 20, 2017, 08:13:54 PM »
Re: Wikileaks

Wikileaks recently dumped a large corpus on Russian telecom cooperation with Russian law enforcement, something like CALEA access in the USA. Unfortunately the documents are in Russian. I would like a link to a translation if possible. Online translation seems quite unsatisfactory.

The reason for my interest is the recent US intelligence warning on Kaspersky antivirus (which detects NSA hacking tools among others) The allegation is that Russian intelligence has access to Kaspersky telemetry from installed instances, but whether covertly or overtly is not clear. I am currently wondering if the telecom dump might illuminate Russian intelligence access.

sidd


We have a number of native Russian speakers on this board who might be able to provide an acceptable translation.
Terry


TerryM

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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #1413 on: October 20, 2017, 08:28:30 PM »
Susan


Isn't the whole uranium thing predicated on the notion that Russia is our enemy? An enemy that would want to bomb us into oblivion if they only had enough uranium to manufacture their weapons?


I don't believe for a minute that any of the major nuclear powers suffer from a uranium shortage, so why should this present a problem?


Terry

Susan Anderson

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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #1414 on: October 20, 2017, 09:22:27 PM »
TerryM, to be honest I'm not very interested in this, which appears to have been a mistake. I was interested in the means of attack, because it is meant to distract from Trump's multiple criminal activities. I just wanted to be clear who knew what when, and WaPo seems like a good source, fairly progressive and with a reputation for honesty. To me, the enemy is anyone who enables Republicans while the rest of us are under attack, including undermining our trust in each other.

TerryM

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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #1415 on: October 20, 2017, 09:30:34 PM »
Susan
I hope you're right re. WaPo, since the takeover by Bezos.
It certainly was a fine paper back in the Watergate days.
Terry

Susan Anderson

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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #1416 on: October 20, 2017, 11:27:53 PM »
Yes, Terry, it has continued much as before. It seems to me you are pronouncing about US politics from abroad. I've lived it, and the rot got much worse starting with Reagan. I realize I'm talking to a brick wall, but this universal condemnation of "corporate Democrats" is a caricature of a much more complex situation, and almost all Democrats do not fit the profile you and others are constructing for them, with the help of Russian and Republican trolls, Assange, and others interesting in creating ill will for profit.

AbruptSLR

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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #1417 on: October 20, 2017, 11:52:00 PM »
The linked article makes it clear that this Russian uranium deal is much ado about nothing:

Title: "Republicans are freaking out about a new report tying Hillary Clinton to a Russian uranium deal"

http://www.businessinsider.com/republicans-trump-uramium-one-deal-hillary-clinton-2017-10


ASLR
You may want to check the ownership of your source. See how many articles they've published that are anti CIA, pro Russian, anti Israel, pro China or anti Ukraine.
Their history, from atop the Berlin wall may surprise you.
Terry

If you prefer a different source, then you can review the linked Slate article:

Title: "Fox News Found a Russia Story It Likes: Obama and Clinton Were the Real Colluders!"

http://www.slate.com/blogs/watching_fox/2017/10/19/why_fox_news_is_obsessed_with_a_story_about_obama_clinton_uranium_and_russia.html

Extract: "Democratic strategist Zac Petkanas tried to offer some perspective. “What people are forgetting is that the Russians can’t actually take the uranium outside of the United States—they don’t have export permits. The uranium has to stay here in the United States,” he said, going on to note that the U.S. only produces 2 percent of the world’s total uranium."
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AbruptSLR

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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #1418 on: October 21, 2017, 03:56:41 AM »
While the linked article is an op/ed piece; nevertheless, I have no doubt that Trump is working hard to transform America into a kleptocracy and that his ties to Russia and other international kleptocratic leaders is but one example of his efforts in this regard:

Title: "Do Trump's foreign business entanglements threaten our democracy?"

http://www.latimes.com/opinion/op-ed/la-oe-chayes-emoluments-clause-20171017-story.html

Extract: "Americans may also be physically endangered. Corruption is hardly a victimless crime. It enrages people. In less than a decade, indignation at kleptocratic rule has swelled the ranks of groups battling the governments of Philippines and Indonesia, and militant groups elsewhere, such as Nigeria’s Boko Haram and Islamic State. Where the U.S. is perceived as enabling abuses, Americans have come under attack. Corruption has sparked revolutions across the Arab world and in Ukraine, and mass protests from Brazil to South Korea.

Americans are in step with this global zeitgeist. Trump, with his cries of “drain the swamp,” rode voters’ indignation at politicians’ self-dealing to the White House. Now he is betraying his electorate. He is just like other American elites: tone-deaf to citizens’ disgust at rigged systems.
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Buddy

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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #1419 on: October 21, 2017, 04:04:00 AM »
Hmmmmmmmmmmmmmm

If Donnie is interviewing candidates for US District Attorney in Manhatten, Brooklyn, Wash D.C., and the district in Florida that includes Mar a lago....I wonder why Moron Don would be doing that?

Hmmmmmm I can't imagine why he would do that? 😉
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TerryM

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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #1420 on: October 21, 2017, 06:24:12 AM »
Yes, Terry, it has continued much as before. It seems to me you are pronouncing about US politics from abroad. I've lived it, and the rot got much worse starting with Reagan. I realize I'm talking to a brick wall, but this universal condemnation of "corporate Democrats" is a caricature of a much more complex situation, and almost all Democrats do not fit the profile you and others are constructing for them, with the help of Russian and Republican trolls, Assange, and others interesting in creating ill will for profit.
Susan
I lived in the States, more or less as an adult, for in excess of 40 years. I arrived in my late teens months before JFK was killed, and left when it became obvious that Bush Jr. was about to win a second term.
Having lived through Reagan's governorship of California, while participating in some of the Berkeley "events", I'm in complete agreement about Reagan. What he did to California was horrible, higher education there may never recover. What he later did to the whole world was even worse.
While all quick characterizations of political movements are caricatures, I believe that the "Corporate Democrats" meme is as effective as "neo-cons", "Reagan Republicans", or other caricatures of political groupings.
One of the noted features of Brick Walls is their lack of responsiveness, perhaps another characterization would better meet your needs?
I think we all need to be careful of our sources, especially in view of the information leaking out re. Cambridge Analytica.


I may not be as foreign to your ways as you imagine.
I fought the good fight in Berkeley, retired into business, chucked the whole thing at 50, and have been retired for the last 21 yrs. My own poor version of the "American" Dream.
Terry

Rob Dekker

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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #1421 on: October 21, 2017, 06:30:41 AM »
TerryM, to be honest I'm not very interested in this, which appears to have been a mistake. I was interested in the means of attack, because it is meant to distract from Trump's multiple criminal activities. I just wanted to be clear who knew what when, and WaPo seems like a good source, fairly progressive and with a reputation for honesty. To me, the enemy is anyone who enables Republicans while the rest of us are under attack, including undermining our trust in each other.

Nothing wrong with the WaPo story.
It is consistent with the other fact-checking sources (some of which I mentioned above) which label this Uranium One - Clinton connection as FALSE.

It seems to me that some posters here still have a hard time separating fact from propaganda.
So here are the facts in the Uranium One case :

- the Uranium mined would stay in the US, regardless who owned the company (Russians or other).
- The decision to approve the majority Russian share of Uranium One was in the hands of a committee of 9 (NINE!) different government agencies, of which the State Department was only one. Not to mention that the Canadian Government had to sign off too, since Uranium One is a Canadian company.
- Clinton was NOT on that committee. A different State Department official was.
- The $145 million donated to the Clinton Foundation were almost entirely from an investor who sold all his shares in Uranium One in 2007 ! That's three years before this deal, and a year before Clinton even became Secretary of State !!
- Clinton does not benefit from the Clinton Foundation. All the money goes to the amazing projects this A+ rated charity sponsors. (As opposed to Trump who used Trump Foundation money to settle lawsuits against Trump. Among other very questionable sponsoring).

To suggest that there is some relation between Uranium One and these donations to the Clinton Foundation by this investor that had no interest in the deal is still preposterous and a non-story.
As it was already debunked as such 2 years ago by many fact checkers.

The question is WHY is the right wing propaganda machine resurrecting this zombie story from the dead now ? Why the continued smearing using a story that's already been debunked so many times ?

Personally, with the recent twist of getting an at that point (2010) preliminary FBI investigation involved, I think they are after Mueller.

Mark my words.
« Last Edit: October 21, 2017, 07:02:27 AM by Rob Dekker »
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Susan Anderson

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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #1422 on: October 21, 2017, 07:10:47 AM »
TerryM, thanks for the personal history. I think some of what I meant to say more generally was unintentionally directed at you personally, for which I strongly apologize. I am so sorry, I didn't mean that.

I was speaking more generally to ideologues who attack our existing public servants and would throw out more than half the existing Democrats in office.

In the broad outline of what would be ideal, I have no quarrel with the more progressive wing of my party, and I would, if I were in charge (perish the thought), get an honest supreme court, repeal money in elections & reverse citizens united, establish universal single-payer health care, a living wage, affordable education, real action on clean energy (*not* fossil fuels), ensure fair elections, improve public schools, cut back on foreign adventures, etc. etc. etc. But what I don't want to see is people splitting up the Democrats into factions based on those who have to work in the real world and don't get to be "queen" as I described above, and those who are all or nothing. To some extent I am wary of this because I know nothing I say or do will get anywhere, but it is appalling to see propaganda having the effect of setting good people at odds with each other.

Rob Dekker

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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #1423 on: October 21, 2017, 08:02:40 AM »
I'm in complete agreement about Reagan. What he did to California was horrible, higher education there may never recover. What he later did to the whole world was even worse.

I can't believe that I (as a Bernie supporter) feel the need to ask this question :
What did Reagan do to the whole world which was so bad ?
Help bring down the Berlin wall ?
This is our planet. This is our time.
Let's not waste either.

sidd

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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #1424 on: October 21, 2017, 08:56:53 AM »
Google,Facebook,Twitter lawyer up:

"Facebook, Twitter and Google all announced on Thursday that they will send their general counsels to testify at House and Senate Intelligence Committee hearings on Russian election interference "

http://thehill.com/policy/technology/356483-tech-giants-choice-of-russia-witnesses-draws-concern

sidd

Rob Dekker

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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #1425 on: October 21, 2017, 09:05:34 AM »
Extract: "Facebook dark posts are News Feed style ads that don’t publish to your Timeline or in your fans’ feeds organically. A dark post doesn’t have to just be a status update; currently, Facebook supports status updates, photos, videos, links or an Offer
...
You can get hyper-targeted. With the ability to create as many ads as you want without spamming your followers, you can create hyper-targeted ads for every segment.

Interesting. If these "dark posts" are really "ads" (paid advertisements) then Facebook would know exactly how much money went around there. So far I'm not aware that Facebook published ANY information about how much money they received from "dark post" ads.

Secondly, regarding "You can get hyper-targeted", does Facebook allow you to present "dark posts" ads to anyone ? Even people that you did not flag as "friends" ?

If Facebook allows you to present "dark posts" ads to anyone you like, then there is a real problem there, and Facebook should come clean as to exactly how much money goes around in these "dark posts", who provided the money, and who exactly was targeted.
« Last Edit: October 21, 2017, 09:20:04 AM by Rob Dekker »
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TerryM

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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #1426 on: October 21, 2017, 09:39:32 AM »
TerryM, thanks for the personal history. I think some of what I meant to say more generally was unintentionally directed at you personally, for which I strongly apologize. I am so sorry, I didn't mean that.

I was speaking more generally to ideologues who attack our existing public servants and would throw out more than half the existing Democrats in office.

In the broad outline of what would be ideal, I have no quarrel with the more progressive wing of my party, and I would, if I were in charge (perish the thought), get an honest supreme court, repeal money in elections & reverse citizens united, establish universal single-payer health care, a living wage, affordable education, real action on clean energy (*not* fossil fuels), ensure fair elections, improve public schools, cut back on foreign adventures, etc. etc. etc. But what I don't want to see is people splitting up the Democrats into factions based on those who have to work in the real world and don't get to be "queen" as I described above, and those who are all or nothing. To some extent I am wary of this because I know nothing I say or do will get anywhere, but it is appalling to see propaganda having the effect of setting good people at odds with each other.
Susan
I was aware that you weren't launching personal attacks, no apologies.
Your program sounds as progressive as mine, so you're correct that we're just trying different routes to getting it enacted.


Would you be willing to concede that if the Democrats refused health care dollars, and were therefor able to campaign for a single payer system, they might improve their standing in the polls? I believe that if we tried this one issue, this one cycle, that the results would be so positive that other Corporate money that doesn't agree with progressive positions, would find few takers from our side of the aisle.
I could quit railing against Corporate Democrats, if they'd pledge "no more healthcare dollars" - for one lousy election cycle.


Is it worth trying?
Terry

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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #1427 on: October 21, 2017, 12:37:03 PM »
[Secondly, regarding "You can get hyper-targeted", does Facebook allow you to present "dark posts" ads to anyone ? Even people that you did not flag as "friends" ?

If Facebook allows you to present "dark posts" ads to anyone you like, then there is a real problem there, and Facebook should come clean as to exactly how much money goes around in these "dark posts", who provided the money, and who exactly was targeted.

I am not an expert on such matters, but I have read that the Trump campaign hired several Trump friendly (that were interviewed by Trump himself to verify their true support of his campaign) ex-Facebook employees that showed the campaign how to identify and target groups of a few voters in key districts.

Congress will need to pass new regulations to track the potential abuse of such tools used by kleptocrats (including Russian oligarchs) who are actively worker to undermine US democracy so that they can scoop-up to pieces (say by public private partnerships that could purchase infrastructure using tax breaks that Trump & the GOP are trying to push though in the window of opportunity while Trump is president).
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AbruptSLR

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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #1428 on: October 21, 2017, 03:08:28 PM »
[Secondly, regarding "You can get hyper-targeted", does Facebook allow you to present "dark posts" ads to anyone ? Even people that you did not flag as "friends" ?

If Facebook allows you to present "dark posts" ads to anyone you like, then there is a real problem there, and Facebook should come clean as to exactly how much money goes around in these "dark posts", who provided the money, and who exactly was targeted.

I am not an expert on such matters, but I have read that the Trump campaign hired several Trump friendly (that were interviewed by Trump himself to verify their true support of his campaign) ex-Facebook employees that showed the campaign how to identify and target groups of a few voters in key districts.

Congress will need to pass new regulations to track the potential abuse of such tools used by kleptocrats (including Russian oligarchs) who are actively worker to undermine US democracy so that they can scoop-up to pieces (say by public private partnerships that could purchase infrastructure using tax breaks that Trump & the GOP are trying to push though in the window of opportunity while Trump is president).

The linked Foreign Affairs article discusses how the US is already well along the road to becoming a corrupt kleptocracy (a process which Trump and the Russians are accelerating), and discuss what could be done to resist this downward slide:

Title: "Kleptocracy in America"

https://www.foreignaffairs.com/reviews/review-essay/2017-08-19/kleptocracy-america

Extract: "I am a bit skeptical of “tool kit” approaches to fixing such deep-seated problems. But if a committed reformer (or, ideally, a network of reformers) were able to capitalize on the widespread indignation at the United States’ brand of kleptocratic governance and gain power, he or she should focus less on punishing overt corruption after the fact than on establishing behavioral norms that would head off such wrongdoing before it takes place. This reform movement would bring an end to the practice of writing the rules of the political and economic games in ways that favor those who have already amassed excessive power in both domains. It would craft and enforce the rules so as to afford a dignified living to those who perform underappreciated tasks (schoolteachers, those who care for the elderly, small farmers) or who have chosen to build their lives around nonmonetary values.

A policy program to achieve that kind of change would begin with placing sharp curbs on campaign contributions and ending the anonymity that many significant political donors enjoy. Shifting to public-only financing for campaigns may seem radical, but that would be the best solution. Lobbying regulations must be tightened and fiercely enforced. Conflicts of interest must be defined more broadly. Ethical breaches must be swiftly sanctioned in a rigidly nonpartisan fashion, so as to change the incentive structure that currently rewards impropriety and not simply single out isolated offenders. Recent events have demonstrated that the gentleman’s agreement governing the ethical practices of officeholders is toothless in the face of a determined violator. Unfortunately, it is now clear that the U.S. Office of Government Ethics needs disciplinary, not just advisory, powers. In general, federal regulatory agencies must be provided with more resources and independence, not less.

But behavioral norms are not just a matter of legislation. They are a matter of culture, and those who would seek to improve the integrity of the U.S. government must address the cultural shifts that have made the slide toward American kleptocracy possible. For example, they could devise a detailed integrity pact and pressure elected officials across the political spectrum to sign it. It could include a pledge to release all tax filings and disclose all outside affiliations, to spend a certain minimum amount of time interacting with ordinary constituents, and to work for more stringent campaign finance, conflict-of-interest, and oversight legislation and enforcement. Voters could use such pledges as a base line for rating the performance of their representatives.

Most important, would-be reformers must develop an inspiring vision that elevates values other than material growth and the accumulation of money—a vision that celebrates being satisfied with having enough, for example, or the effort to repair battered people and things, or the nurturing of the beauty around us. They must seek to transform the way Americans understand and measure the success of their society."
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TerryM

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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #1429 on: October 21, 2017, 03:11:02 PM »
[Secondly, regarding "You can get hyper-targeted", does Facebook allow you to present "dark posts" ads to anyone ? Even people that you did not flag as "friends" ?

If Facebook allows you to present "dark posts" ads to anyone you like, then there is a real problem there, and Facebook should come clean as to exactly how much money goes around in these "dark posts", who provided the money, and who exactly was targeted.

I am not an expert on such matters, but I have read that the Trump campaign hired several Trump friendly (that were interviewed by Trump himself to verify their true support of his campaign) ex-Facebook employees that showed the campaign how to identify and target groups of a few voters in key districts.

Congress will need to pass new regulations to track the potential abuse of such tools used by kleptocrats (including Russian oligarchs) who are actively worker to undermine US democracy so that they can scoop-up to pieces (say by public private partnerships that could purchase infrastructure using tax breaks that Trump & the GOP are trying to push though in the window of opportunity while Trump is president).


IIRC Hillary was using very similar tactics, but at only 1/5 the rate of Trump's team.
The "dark ads", coupled with an aggressive Ai problem that identifies individual "bents" totally subverts the whole concept of democracy.
Theoretically a single candidate could be both for and against gun control, the death penalty, or climate change mitigation. Your red neck neighbor, a university professor, and the manager of your bank, could all be voting for the same person based on the individualized ads that they each received from him.


My local MP, (Member of Parliament), missed both of the major candidate debates in the most recent election cycle. (he lost)  :) , but this would be the optimum strategy using a Cambridge Analytica approach. A blank slate on which anything can be written, then effaced erased before your neighbor gets a peek.


No facebook, no tweeting, until this somehow gets put back in the bottle.
Terry

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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #1430 on: October 21, 2017, 03:22:22 PM »
Hopefully, people realize that Russiagate is far more than just election tampering of the 2016 election by the Russian Oligarchy.  Donald Trump is actively working (together with the Russian Oligarchs) to promote the development of an international web of kleptocrats around the world.  Trump has largely ignored the Foreign Corrupt Practices Act (I hope the Mueller investigates, at least Trump hotel deal in Baku, Azerbaijan) and much more:

Title: "How Donald Trump Could Destroy the Global Fight Against Kleptocracy"

https://theintercept.com/2017/06/30/trump-obiang-corruption-kleptocracy-equatorial-guinea-teodorin/

Extract: "Yet, for what seems to be the first time in recent memory, the president of the United States is officially hostile to the modest efforts that have been taken to crack down on global corruption. In an interview on CNBC, Trump called the Foreign Corrupt Practices Act a “horrible law” because it prevents U.S. companies from making secret payments to foreign officials. “It puts us at a huge disadvantage,” Trump told the business network in 2012. On this, he is a man of his word: His administration appears to have begun withdrawing the U.S. from a key global effort to thwart corruption, known as the Extractive Industries Transparency Initiative. And it’s not just a matter of the Trump administration adopting a critical stance on EITI and the FCPA. An investigation by the New Yorker earlier this year raised the prospect that Trump himself, through his Trump Organization, violated the FCPA in a hotel deal in Baku, Azerbaijan.

The well-being of ordinary Americans might not be greatly harmed by the Trump family trying to use its political power to raise the occupancy rates at its hotels and golf resorts, but kleptocracy has real impacts in other countries."
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TerryM

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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #1431 on: October 21, 2017, 03:36:23 PM »
[Secondly, regarding "You can get hyper-targeted", does Facebook allow you to present "dark posts" ads to anyone ? Even people that you did not flag as "friends" ?

If Facebook allows you to present "dark posts" ads to anyone you like, then there is a real problem there, and Facebook should come clean as to exactly how much money goes around in these "dark posts", who provided the money, and who exactly was targeted.

I am not an expert on such matters, but I have read that the Trump campaign hired several Trump friendly (that were interviewed by Trump himself to verify their true support of his campaign) ex-Facebook employees that showed the campaign how to identify and target groups of a few voters in key districts.

Congress will need to pass new regulations to track the potential abuse of such tools used by kleptocrats (including Russian oligarchs) who are actively worker to undermine US democracy so that they can scoop-up to pieces (say by public private partnerships that could purchase infrastructure using tax breaks that Trump & the GOP are trying to push though in the window of opportunity while Trump is president).

The linked Foreign Affairs article discusses how the US is already well along the road to becoming a corrupt kleptocracy (a process which Trump and the Russians are accelerating), and discuss what could be done to resist this downward slide:

Title: "Kleptocracy in America"

https://www.foreignaffairs.com/reviews/review-essay/2017-08-19/kleptocracy-america

Extract: "I am a bit skeptical of “tool kit” approaches to fixing such deep-seated problems. But if a committed reformer (or, ideally, a network of reformers) were able to capitalize on the widespread indignation at the United States’ brand of kleptocratic governance and gain power, he or she should focus less on punishing overt corruption after the fact than on establishing behavioral norms that would head off such wrongdoing before it takes place. This reform movement would bring an end to the practice of writing the rules of the political and economic games in ways that favor those who have already amassed excessive power in both domains. It would craft and enforce the rules so as to afford a dignified living to those who perform underappreciated tasks (schoolteachers, those who care for the elderly, small farmers) or who have chosen to build their lives around nonmonetary values.

A policy program to achieve that kind of change would begin with placing sharp curbs on campaign contributions and ending the anonymity that many significant political donors enjoy. Shifting to public-only financing for campaigns may seem radical, but that would be the best solution. Lobbying regulations must be tightened and fiercely enforced. Conflicts of interest must be defined more broadly. Ethical breaches must be swiftly sanctioned in a rigidly nonpartisan fashion, so as to change the incentive structure that currently rewards impropriety and not simply single out isolated offenders. Recent events have demonstrated that the gentleman’s agreement governing the ethical practices of officeholders is toothless in the face of a determined violator. Unfortunately, it is now clear that the U.S. Office of Government Ethics needs disciplinary, not just advisory, powers. In general, federal regulatory agencies must be provided with more resources and independence, not less.

But behavioral norms are not just a matter of legislation. They are a matter of culture, and those who would seek to improve the integrity of the U.S. government must address the cultural shifts that have made the slide toward American kleptocracy possible. For example, they could devise a detailed integrity pact and pressure elected officials across the political spectrum to sign it. It could include a pledge to release all tax filings and disclose all outside affiliations, to spend a certain minimum amount of time interacting with ordinary constituents, and to work for more stringent campaign finance, conflict-of-interest, and oversight legislation and enforcement. Voters could use such pledges as a base line for rating the performance of their representatives.

Most important, would-be reformers must develop an inspiring vision that elevates values other than material growth and the accumulation of money—a vision that celebrates being satisfied with having enough, for example, or the effort to repair battered people and things, or the nurturing of the beauty around us. They must seek to transform the way Americans understand and measure the success of their society."


These are noble thoughts and ideas... However:


Asking the politician in power to radically change the laws under which he was elected will be met with a brusk rebuff, unless that radical change will make it even more difficult for his next opponent to succeed.


Successful politicians won't willingly change the rules since it's those very rules that allowed our politicians to be successful.


Yossarian might have explained it as:
We get an honest Supreme Court to overturn Citizens United by electing a string of Presidents who all won using the faceless money that Citizens United provided.


Terry

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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #1432 on: October 21, 2017, 07:29:39 PM »
Release of JFK documents. Look at the shiny object over here..... Don't look at RussiaGate.😳

Well done Donnie....well done.  😉
« Last Edit: October 21, 2017, 09:53:46 PM by Buddy »
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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #1433 on: October 21, 2017, 09:45:06 PM »
Asking the politician in power to radically change the laws under which he was elected will be met with a brusk rebuff, unless that radical change will make it even more difficult for his next opponent to succeed.


Successful politicians won't willingly change the rules since it's those very rules that allowed our politicians to be successful.

I generally concur. However:
(1) A political backlash to Trump and Russiagate may result in some temporary regulations (see linked article below) that will stabilize matters into the 2040-2050 timeframe; and
(2) After the coming socio-economic collapse in the 2050-2060 timeframe, maybe the survivors will develop some new economic and governance systems that will stabilize matters for many centuries (I have posted some thoughts on this matter in the 'Adapting to the Anthropocene' thread).

ASLR

Edit, see:

Title: "The Russia Investigations: Interference Impacted Real Life; Senators Propose New Law"

http://www.npr.org/2017/10/22/559086726/the-russia-investigations-interference-impacted-real-life-senators-propose-new-l

Extract: "Last week in the Russia investigations: Reports are growing about Russian-linked interference beyond the Web and in real life, three senators pitch a bill to tackle digital active measures and Big Tech says it'll play ball in Capitol Hill's big show on Nov. 1."
« Last Edit: October 22, 2017, 05:43:36 PM by AbruptSLR »
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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #1434 on: October 22, 2017, 07:02:57 PM »
ASLR
Isn't Soros usually credited with providing funding to Black Lives Matter?


Finding Soros and Russia on the same side of a political movement would be unusual, to say the least.


http://www.politico.com/story/2015/11/major-donors-consider-funding-black-lives-matter-215814


The above notes BLM's ties to the Democratic Alliance, and Soros ties to the DA.


Terry
PS
Facebook, Twitter and Google's use by the fine folks at Cambridge Analytica has been touched on elsewhere.

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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #1435 on: October 23, 2017, 03:52:08 AM »
ASLR
Isn't Soros usually credited with providing funding to Black Lives Matter?
I have no idea.
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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #1436 on: October 23, 2017, 06:39:28 AM »
ASLR
Isn't Soros usually credited with providing funding to Black Lives Matter?

Finding Soros and Russia on the same side of a political movement would be unusual, to say the least.

There may be something to the Soros funding to Black Lives Matter.
Snopes reports this :
https://www.snopes.com/politics/business/sorosferguson.asp

And yes, the Russians definitively encouraged Black Lives Matter. Plenty of evidence for that, like here :
https://www.wired.com/story/russian-black-activist-facebook-accounts/

But I would suggest that these served different purposes.
Soros typically sponsors democratic and popular uprisings.
The Russians seek to divide nations.

For Black Lives Matter, the two purposes just happened to coincide.
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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #1437 on: October 23, 2017, 08:17:04 AM »
Re: Russian support for BLM

O my, this reaches back to a playbook from the 30's. Robin Kelley wrote a book in 1990 called "Hammer and Hoe" about communist movement among Alabama blacks in that period.I recommend reading it.  Ascribing foreign influence to internal rebellion never palls as instrument of power. I attach an image from page 75.

https://libcom.org/files/Hammer%20and%20hoe%20Alabama%20Communists%20during%20the%20Great%20Depression.pdf

sidd



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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #1438 on: October 23, 2017, 09:55:03 AM »
No wonder both Russia and Soros supported BLM.
Its a good cause no matter which side you are on.
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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #1439 on: October 23, 2017, 09:34:50 PM »

AbruptSLR

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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #1440 on: October 23, 2017, 11:07:30 PM »
Mueller investigating Podesta group Ukraine ties:

https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/amp/mueller-now-investigating-democratic-lobbyist-tony-podesta-n812776

sidd

In the linked opinion piece, Palmer discusses why the Resistance should be happy that Mueller is investigating John Podesta's brother:

Title: "Why the Resistance should be glad Robert Mueller is investigating John Podesta’s brother"

http://www.palmerreport.com/opinion/podesta-mueller/5668/

Extract: "Today we got word of one of the stranger twists in the Trump-Russia probe to date: Special Counsel Robert Mueller is now investigating Tony Podesta, the brother of former Hillary Clinton campaign chair John Podesta, for his possible role as an unregistered foreign agent of Russia. It’s set off some immediate panic within the Resistance: has Trump somehow co-opted Mueller’s investigation into being about Hillary? Has Mueller been some kind of Trump plant all along? No, none of these things are the case. In fact the Resistance should be pleased about this latest development."
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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #1441 on: October 24, 2017, 08:22:14 AM »
From the same report :

Quote
In the mean time, Donald Trump may begin tweeting garbage about how his Russia scandal is actually a Hillary scandal. That’s fine, let him have his fun. No one will buy it but his own base anyway. He’ll look awfully stupid later on, when Robert Mueller proves that either Tony Podesta is innocent, or that Tony Podesta is guilty in a manner which had nothing to do with John Podesta or Hillary Clinton. In the mean time, Trump cannot make his Russia scandal go away simply by tweeting things.

Looks like Mueller knows what he is doing.
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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #1442 on: October 25, 2017, 06:09:50 AM »
Have stayed away from this thread but dropping a PSA to save folks some time, since the Leftist Team Hillary Haters/Putin Admirers/Trump Apologists will try to make hay out of the reporting about the dossier.  It's mostly old news, from January.  It's oppo effort, which is typically paid for by...the oppo.  Here's a thread from a Republican operative to help level set the developments:

https://mobile.twitter.com/TheRickWilson/status/923023878884151296

TerryM

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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #1443 on: October 25, 2017, 07:52:03 AM »
Have stayed away from this thread but dropping a PSA to save folks some time, since the Leftist Team Hillary Haters/Putin Admirers/Trump Apologists will try to make hay out of the reporting about the dossier.  It's mostly old news, from January.  It's oppo effort, which is typically paid for by...the oppo.  Here's a thread from a Republican operative to help level set the developments:

https://mobile.twitter.com/TheRickWilson/status/923023878884151296


A dropping PSA, as I understand the term, is a very ogood indicator, but also very gender specific.
 Should I come in contact with any known LTHH/PA/TA's I'll direct him or her to your very informative post.
 
As I understand it you're saying that either a dossier, or a report about said dossier, is actually an oppo effort. I'm not too clear on just why an oppo would make such an effort, or even exactly who or what an oppo is, (wiki says it's a telephone, but telephones don't make efforts). Perhaps this is due to my hesitancy to put much faith Republican Operatives coupled to my refusal to open tweets ever since the information came out about Cambridge Analytica. I'm relieved to know that oppo efforts are typically paid for by the oppo's, that just seems fair.


Hope your PSA continues to drop, and that the oppo's are made to pay by the LTHH/PA/TA,s - or vice versa
Terry
« Last Edit: October 25, 2017, 08:11:46 AM by TerryM »

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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #1444 on: October 25, 2017, 01:53:20 PM »
Have stayed away from this thread but dropping a PSA to save folks some time, since the Leftist Team Hillary Haters/Putin Admirers/Trump Apologists will try to make hay out of the reporting about the dossier.  It's mostly old news, from January.  It's oppo effort, which is typically paid for by...the oppo.  Here's a thread from a Republican operative to help level set the developments:

https://mobile.twitter.com/TheRickWilson/status/923023878884151296

Yeah, this is the latest lame Republican distraction.  Of course, it's as inane as telling the judge at your burglary trial that the evidence of your crime found by police detectives shouldn't be admissible in court because those detectives work for the government, but, hey, they have to do what they have to do, I guess. It'll make headlines in the short run, of course, but in the long run it doesn't matter.

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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #1445 on: October 25, 2017, 03:14:06 PM »
Rachel Maddow did a section last night on when Republicans began to turn on Nixon.

We're about a month ahead of where things were in Watergate.  Look for more defections over the next 6 months.  Lindsay Graham is a "keystone" to watch for.  And of course....watch the polls over the next 6 months.  There is some "positive feedback" in play.  As poll numbers weaken...Donnie loses support in Congress....which then puts more downward pressure on polls...which leads to more Congressmen leaving Trump.

In an ideal world....this leads to Trump quitting or getting pushed out of office.  We'll see what the future holds.

There are a LOT of rotten people in the US congress right now.....many/most of them happen to be on the Republican side right now.  Character is revealed when times get rough.  We are now seeing both good and bad character being revealed in the US.
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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #1446 on: October 25, 2017, 05:34:37 PM »
Have stayed away from this thread but dropping a PSA to save folks some time, since the Leftist Team Hillary Haters/Putin Admirers/Trump Apologists will try to make hay out of the reporting about the dossier.  It's mostly old news, from January.  It's oppo effort, which is typically paid for by...the oppo.  Here's a thread from a Republican operative to help level set the developments:

https://mobile.twitter.com/TheRickWilson/status/923023878884151296


A dropping PSA, as I understand the term, is a very ogood indicator, but also very gender specific.
 Should I come in contact with any known LTHH/PA/TA's I'll direct him or her to your very informative post.
 
As I understand it you're saying that either a dossier, or a report about said dossier, is actually an oppo effort. I'm not too clear on just why an oppo would make such an effort, or even exactly who or what an oppo is, (wiki says it's a telephone, but telephones don't make efforts). Perhaps this is due to my hesitancy to put much faith Republican Operatives coupled to my refusal to open tweets ever since the information came out about Cambridge Analytica. I'm relieved to know that oppo efforts are typically paid for by the oppo's, that just seems fair.


Hope your PSA continues to drop, and that the oppo's are made to pay by the LTHH/PA/TA,s - or vice versa
Terry

 ;D  thanks doc.

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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #1447 on: October 25, 2017, 05:46:46 PM »
Have stayed away from this thread but dropping a PSA to save folks some time, since the Leftist Team Hillary Haters/Putin Admirers/Trump Apologists will try to make hay out of the reporting about the dossier.  It's mostly old news, from January.  It's oppo effort, which is typically paid for by...the oppo.  Here's a thread from a Republican operative to help level set the developments:

https://mobile.twitter.com/TheRickWilson/status/923023878884151296


A dropping PSA, as I understand the term, is a very ogood indicator, but also very gender specific.
 Should I come in contact with any known LTHH/PA/TA's I'll direct him or her to your very informative post.
 
As I understand it you're saying that either a dossier, or a report about said dossier, is actually an oppo effort. I'm not too clear on just why an oppo would make such an effort, or even exactly who or what an oppo is, (wiki says it's a telephone, but telephones don't make efforts). Perhaps this is due to my hesitancy to put much faith Republican Operatives coupled to my refusal to open tweets ever since the information came out about Cambridge Analytica. I'm relieved to know that oppo efforts are typically paid for by the oppo's, that just seems fair.


Hope your PSA continues to drop, and that the oppo's are made to pay by the LTHH/PA/TA,s - or vice versa
Terry

 ;D  thanks doc.


"Old News", not to be confused with your old man's new Olds.  8)
Terry


AbruptSLR

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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #1449 on: October 26, 2017, 12:21:38 AM »
All Mueller needs to do now is link the WikiLeaks on Hilary through Cambridge Analytica to the Trump campaign:

Title: "Trump campaign data firm 'approached WikiLeaks during US election for Hillary Clinton's deleted emails'"

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/us-politics/trump-wikileaks-julian-assange-cambridge-analytica-hillary-clinton-deleted-emails-a8020111.html

Extract: "A political data firm employed by the Trump campaign sought to work with WikiLeaks, publisher Julian Assange has said.

The proposed partnership was first uncovered by the Daily Beast, which reported that Cambridge Analytica approached the anti-secrecy organisation in an effort to locate the 33,000 emails deleted from Democratic nominee Hillary Clinton’s private email server."
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