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Rob Dekker

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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #1650 on: November 09, 2017, 05:19:57 AM »
3) Yes, there are several suspicious things. FWIW Manafort appeared asleep also sounds strange to me.
I agree. I think that's another lie. But without a transcript of the meeting we will probably never know.

Quote
With  "it sounds like continue to try to remove pressure from Trump which might be what we would expect and fairly useless." I was saying that what Natalia Veselnitskaya was saying did not appear to be good evidence against Trumps. However, that doesn't mean it is good evidence for Trumps as what she is saying is not necessarily true.

You assert that the words that Natalia Veselnitskaya attributed to Donald Jr are NOT good evidence against the Trump team. But it seems that many interpret these words at least as a promise that a Trump presidency would review the Magnitsky Act. Google "Donald Jr review Magnitsky Act" and see how many news outlets drew that conclusion.

The other possibility is that it was evidence in FAVOR of the Trump team does not seem to seem to take hold in the news. I can't find a single article that holds that opinion.

That's why I think that Putin is throwing Donald Jr. under the bus with Veselnitskaya's statements. Or at least a "slap on the wrist", maybe to remind the Trump team that there was a 'deal' here. And at the same time put Donald Jr. in a more compromising situation for the Mueller investigation.

Because the statements that Veselnitskaya revealed smell very much like "collusion".
« Last Edit: November 09, 2017, 05:38:41 AM by Rob Dekker »
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Rob Dekker

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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #1651 on: November 09, 2017, 05:27:10 AM »
And it seems that more sealed indictments were added in the past few days.

In fact, the number now stands at a whopping 17 sealed indictments filed in DC's U.S. District Court:

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1-y7R63vrNR82QONXB8KodSHSXg_IvveR/view

Rob,

Could you update your Google search to see how many sealed indictments have been filed now?

Best,
ASLR

I would love to, but unfortunately have not found any updated reports on this today.

I also tried to see if I can obtain that list directly from the source (US District Court for the District of Columbia) :
http://www.dcd.uscourts.gov/
Unfortunately it appears that you need to be an attorney to access that info (via PACER) or at least you need to have a paid subscription, which I don't have.

[edit] I just opened a PACER account. I do see the unsealed cases (like USA v. MOTLEY) but I can't find and record of any sealed cases at all. I found the CM/ECF site that produces the same layout as on the document from 2 days ago :
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1-y7R63vrNR82QONXB8KodSHSXg_IvveR/view
Yet, I can't find any 'sealed' indictments at all.
Maybe I'm doing something wrong.
Or maybe it was false alarm.
« Last Edit: November 09, 2017, 07:00:20 AM by Rob Dekker »
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TerryM

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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #1652 on: November 09, 2017, 01:37:44 PM »
TerryM, I get about 50 requests a day to "chip in" somewhere between $3 and $500 from multiple parties, thanks to having contributed what we could before last year's election. Many of these come from Bernie's progressive allies. I don't think money helps much and I don't normally succumb, but it's the way things are done now, and unilateral disarmament is a questionable tactic.

I had financially supported the Democratic party for decades, then supported the Liberal Party here in Canada, until after the last election cycle. I'm still very satisfied by my provincial liberals, but have been having second thoughts about Trudeau's Federal Liberals, although not particularly for the stances you've mentioned.
Grassroot donations are needed until a more equatable system of funding campaigns is put into place and I've always approved (and participated) in this. What I rail against is large donations from lobbyists, multinationals, and  groups such as Big Ag, Pharmaceutical groups, Big Oil, etc.

Quote
I read my daily mailings from DeSmog Canada, and though I like Trudeau, some of the things he seems to approve are highly questionable (Tar Sands, mining, etc.). I have to assume that he like every politician has to work with people who oppose him. Obama a year or two back had to pass on an Arctic drilling lease; when I looked more closely it turned out to be a Bush initiative which Obama was wiser to modify by maintaining control, rather than refusing to act which would result in passing it on to people who would make it worse. That's the thing about politics: it's a dirty business. Those who want their hands clean can stand on the sidelines and wring them. I wholly support Elizabeth Warren, but it's obvious she is not unwilling to do what's necessary to win. The alternative is losing.

It is understandable, particularly in the climate arena, that compromise is no longer acceptable. What's to do?
What to do indeed.


Climate change is a global problem, and it will require global cooperation if we are to have any chance of coming out of this in one piece. Cooperation - say through something like the Paris Accord - is a very minimal beginning.
Many Republicans reject the Paris Accord, many Democrats are suddenly warhawks. I fear both of these groups because I can't imagine my grandchildren surviving if either holds power.


What's one to do?
Terry

crandles

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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #1653 on: November 09, 2017, 02:19:34 PM »

You assert that the words that Natalia Veselnitskaya attributed to Donald Jr are NOT good evidence against the Trump team. But it seems that many interpret these words at least as a promise that a Trump presidency would review the Magnitsky Act. Google "Donald Jr review Magnitsky Act" and see how many news outlets drew that conclusion.

The other possibility is that it was evidence in FAVOR of the Trump team does not seem to seem to take hold in the news. I can't find a single article that holds that opinion.

That's why I think that Putin is throwing Donald Jr. under the bus with Veselnitskaya's statements. Or at least a "slap on the wrist", maybe to remind the Trump team that there was a 'deal' here. And at the same time put Donald Jr. in a more compromising situation for the Mueller investigation.

Because the statements that Veselnitskaya revealed smell very much like "collusion".

I am saying it is not good evidence either way. Also that there is a real danger that if you think there is collusion going on then confirmation bias tends to make you see things (smell things?) as evidence for collusion.

Buddy

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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #1654 on: November 09, 2017, 02:46:00 PM »
Anyone who thought FOX News couldn't get any worse...I have some bad news for you.  Sebastian Gorka...the alt right crazy that lied about his experience in foreign affairs...is now a FOX paid contributor.

You can be sure that he will be showing up on Sean Hannity's lie session ...as well as Janine Pirro's as well.  Sean and Jeanine communicate (coordinate) with Moron Don from time-to-time....and I'm sure that Bannon will be working with Gorka and Donnie to get Gorka face time on FOX and coordinating what subjects they want to hit on.

Again.....one of the areas of obstruction of justice that Mueller MAY take a look at....is that provided by Sean Hannity and Jeanine Pirro...coordinating with Moron Don.  It will be interesting to see if Mueller presses that issue.  If he does....I would think that it would be done AFTER most of all of the bad actors in the administration have already been indicted AND taken to trial.
FOX (RT) News....."The Trump Channel.....where truth and journalism are dead."

AbruptSLR

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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #1655 on: November 09, 2017, 04:48:03 PM »
I would love to, but unfortunately have not found any updated reports on this today.

Sorry to put you to so much trouble.  Perhaps in the future it will be easier to monitor Brookings Institution Senior Fellow Benjamin Wittes' Tweets on this matter (see link below & attached):

https://twitter.com/benjaminwittes/status/928461055453487104

“It is not the strongest or the most intelligent who will survive but those who can best manage change.”
― Leon C. Megginson

AbruptSLR

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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #1656 on: November 09, 2017, 10:54:53 PM »
It looks like the possibility that a pee pee tape might exist is still an open question, depending on what happened in 2013 after Trump's bodyguard went to bed:

Title: "Former Bodyguard Says Russian Offered To Send Women To Trump’s Moscow Hotel Room: Report"

https://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/trump-schiller-pee-tape-dossier_us_5a04ac74e4b0f76b05c44156

Extract: "The existence of the famed Russian “pee tape” may remain shrouded in mystery, but a former bodyguard for President Donald Trump reportedly has confirmed Trump was given the opportunity to host five women in his Moscow hotel room in 2013.

Former director of Oval Office relations Keith Schiller relayed the account in an interview with Congress this week, three sources present for the questioning told NBC News. Before the 2013 Miss Universe Pageant ― which was owned by Trump at the time and took place in Moscow that year ― a Russian participant offered to “send five women” to Trump’s hotel room, Schiller reportedly said.

Schiller, thinking the offer was a joke, responded, “We don’t do that type of stuff,” two of the sources told NBC. He discussed the conversation with Trump while walking him to his hotel room that night and they both laughed about it before Trump went to bed alone, two of the sources also said.

Though Schiller testified he stood outside Trump’s room for an unspecified amount of time before also going to bed, one of the sources noted Schiller “could not say for sure what happened during the remainder of the night,” according to NBC.

Schiller’s comments came as he disputed allegations contained in the dossier compiled by former British spy Christopher Steele and released earlier this year."
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AbruptSLR

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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #1657 on: November 09, 2017, 11:13:34 PM »
Bob Goodlatte is a good ally of Donald Trump and would have been the ranking GOP member on any committee that might be called to impeach Trump.  However, as he is retiring after 2018, if such a committee is formed after the Democrats take over the House after the mid-term elections, then Trump will have lost his strongest potential ally on such an impeachment committee:

Title: "Virginia GOP Rep. Bob Goodlatte Announces He Is Retiring"

https://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/bob-goodlatte-retiring_us_5a047c3ee4b0937b5110313c
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Buddy

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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #1658 on: November 10, 2017, 02:38:09 AM »
Donnie.....Donnie.....Donnie.  Santa is NOT happy with you AT ALL.  You may bring coal back.....but it looks like most of it is going directly into your stocking.🙈

When the Steele dossier first came out... I didn't pay much attention to it.  It was "raw intelligence"...so there wasn't any reason to pay a lot of attention to it.  And there were other much more important stories and "dots" to connect.

Who knew that it would turn out to be true.  Gobsmacking.  Would love to be a fly on the wall when little Gorby meets with Moron in Vietnam.  AMAZING.  Donnie really is a dumb ass....
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Rob Dekker

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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #1659 on: November 10, 2017, 04:15:18 AM »
Sorry to put you to so much trouble.  Perhaps in the future it will be easier to monitor Brookings Institution Senior Fellow Benjamin Wittes' Tweets on this matter (see link below & attached):

No trouble at all. I always want to fact check assertions that seem interesting, and that's why I opened a PACER account.

The problem with Wittes' statement is that it is a statement of authority.
He does not mention where he obtained his number (7) from nor offers an explanation how he determined which sealed cases are valid and which ones are not.

Meanwhile, the rumors keep getting stronger, and the count appears to be up to 34 in DC's Court :
https://lawnewz.com/high-profile/rumors-swirl-about-mueller-probe-after-34-sealed-cases-filed-in-d-c-federal-court/

which seems to match this page dump from one of the commenters :
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1-0rmBG111gCXps0hTHj1A70LSCOMg_Ns/view

with 50 more recently filed sealed cases in District Court in Virginia with this page dump as evidence :
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1Au0aupHmQMe1RnP93e8lUQWh8IkQG4k0/view

I want to stress that I cannot confirm ANY of these numbers. With my PACER account, I can see one sealed defendant case in NY court, but no sealed cases in DC or VA. Again, I don't know why I can't reproduce the lists given above. I only see the 'unsealed' cases. Maybe because I registered as 'Individual' instead of as attorney ?

So for the moment, the increasing number of sealed cases is stunning, but since we have no open-source evidence to support that increasing number, we should be cautious to draw any conclusions from it.

But it is interesting...
« Last Edit: November 10, 2017, 05:40:40 AM by Rob Dekker »
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sidd

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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #1660 on: November 10, 2017, 06:10:13 AM »
Wikileaks releases (some) sourcecode of CIA malware. Apparently the CIA was masquerading implant traffic using Kaspersky certificates. So that makes me rethink the Kaspersky accusations earlier this year.

https://wikileaks.org/vault8/

sidd

Rob Dekker

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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #1661 on: November 10, 2017, 07:19:54 AM »
Wikileaks releases (some) sourcecode of CIA malware. Apparently the CIA was masquerading implant traffic using Kaspersky certificates. So that makes me rethink the Kaspersky accusations earlier this year.

From the wikleaks link :

Quote
Source code published in this series contains software designed to run on servers controlled by the CIA.

This does not make any sense.
CIA servers are not any different than any other servers, including Kaspersky servers.
Wikileaks is just trowing mud here without any evidence.

Also, when they state "Hive solves a critical problem for the malware operators at the CIA." what that really means is "Hive solves a critical problem for ANY malware operator ANYWHERE".

As an example, just replace "CIA" with "Russia" and re-read the article :
https://wikileaks.org/vault8/
Got a different ring to it now, doesn't it ?

Meanwhile, since Kaspersky seems to have quite close ties to Putin's clan, you may want to 'secure' your data via a different company.
https://www.nytimes.com/2017/09/04/opinion/kapersky-russia-cybersecurity.html?_r=0

None of this seems to have anything to do with Russia interfering in the US 2016 elections.
Why did you think it did, sidd ?

[edit] Sidd, exactly which source file in the wikileaks dump do you find most convincing ?
https://wikileaks.org/vault8/document/repo_hive/
To me, this source file dump describes a command line executable, which has many error states that report back to stderr and stdout, which means it is NOT a malware piece of software, let alone it has anything to do with the CIA..
« Last Edit: November 10, 2017, 08:26:23 AM by Rob Dekker »
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TerryM

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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #1662 on: November 10, 2017, 09:12:26 AM »
Wikileaks releases (some) sourcecode of CIA malware. Apparently the CIA was masquerading implant traffic using Kaspersky certificates. So that makes me rethink the Kaspersky accusations earlier this year.

https://wikileaks.org/vault8/

sidd
sidd
Wasn't one of the earlier vault8 releases software designed to make NSA interference appear to have originated from a country of the NSA's choice.
With this new revelation it appears as though our spies have targeted one of their corporations. Would anyone dare to sue?, and in what venue?
Terry

sidd

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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #1663 on: November 10, 2017, 09:25:47 PM »
Sourcecode to generate fake Kaspersky cert:

https://wikileaks.org/vault8/document/repo_hive/client/ssl/CA/client_crt/

Wheeler has some thoughts on the relation between ShadowBrokers dump and Wikileaks dump:

https://www.emptywheel.net/2017/11/09/why-is-wikileaks-reading-from-shadowbrokers-kaspersky-fud-script/

sidd

TerryM

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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #1664 on: November 11, 2017, 12:01:59 AM »
The gal who was to take over at Podesta's group announces other plans.


https://www.politico.com/story/2017/11/09/podesta-group-ceo-quits-kimberley-fritts-244766


What's the crew to do when the captain is the first to abandon ship?
Terry

AbruptSLR

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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #1665 on: November 11, 2017, 12:58:37 AM »
Mueller looks to have Flynn and his son dead to rights:

Title: "The Russia Investigation Is Now Also a Turkey Investigation. Good."

http://www.slate.com/blogs/the_slatest/2017/11/10/the_russia_investigation_is_now_also_a_turkey_investigation_good.html

Extract: "Now, the Journal reports that special counsel Robert Mueller is investigating a plan discussed at a second meeting between Turkish officials and Flynn, this one held at New York’s 21 Club in December 2016, after Trump had named him national security advisor. “Under the alleged proposal, Mr. Flynn and his son, Michael Flynn Jr., were to be paid as much as $15 million for delivering Fethullah Gulen to the Turkish government,” the Journal reports.

This is not conjecture. It’s based on official filings, documents distributed by Congress, and the account of a former CIA director. Mueller’s investigation may yet turn up far more dramatic information about the Trump team’s ties to Russia, including the holy grail—evidence of collusion in the hacking of the Clinton campaign."
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Rob Dekker

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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #1666 on: November 11, 2017, 04:07:08 AM »
And now for something lighter :

George Papadopulous sent a picture of himself via Twitter, on Oct 24 (just days before the Mueller indictments came down) :

https://twitter.com/GeorgePapa19/status/923078894634270720



His comment was #business, which seems to suggest that he was on business somewhere in London, and that everything was cool.

Now, it turns out that this picture was taken years ago. How do we know ?
Leave that to the guys at Bellingcat :

https://www.bellingcat.com/news/americas/2017/10/31/new-george-papadopoulos-photograph-actually-years-old/

They found out where exactly that picture was taken, and then use StreetView history to determine that there is a sticker on the pole behind him that was removed before May 2015.
The picture likely was taken in the summer of 2014, when the sticker was still present.

Isn't that cool ?
I just love open-source journalism.
« Last Edit: November 11, 2017, 04:20:26 AM by Rob Dekker »
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TerryM

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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #1667 on: November 11, 2017, 04:45:41 AM »
Apparently The Clinton Foundation, with it's ties to Saudi Royalty & Ukrainian Oligarchs was recognised as problematical before Hillary's defeat,


https://mobile.nytimes.com/2016/08/21/us/politics/hillary-clinton-presidential-campaign-charity.html?referer=


"And in an election year in which a majority of Americans say they do not trust Mrs. Clinton, even some allies questioned why the foundation had not reined in foreign donations sooner, or ended them immediately."
(my bolding)


at least according to the New York Times. - from 2016


Terry

Rob Dekker

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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #1668 on: November 11, 2017, 05:14:47 AM »
I see that you are still pissing on Hillary and the A+ rated Clinton Foundation, Terry.
You do realize that your cherry-picking unfounded line items are indistinguishable from right-wing Clinton smearing, don't you ?
And that your remarks have nothing to do with RussiaGate...
« Last Edit: November 11, 2017, 05:48:32 AM by Rob Dekker »
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Buddy

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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #1669 on: November 11, 2017, 12:52:20 PM »
Rob:

The Clinton Foundation helps thousands and thousand of disadvantaged folks in the world.  From drinking water to women's issues.  That is the sort of stuff we need to STOP.  Instead....they should be buying portraits of themselves........like the Trump Foundation.  THAT is what really helps the world. ...right?   😂😂😂😂 How DARE the Clintons try to help the disadvantaged. 😳
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pileus

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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #1670 on: November 11, 2017, 01:55:11 PM »
Relieved to see that the question of Russian interference in the 2016 election and betrayal of US sovereignty has been solved, as Trump asked Putin today about it and Vlad promised he didn't do it. 
« Last Edit: November 11, 2017, 02:35:06 PM by pileus »

Buddy

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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #1671 on: November 11, 2017, 02:22:05 PM »
Hey....as long as the FOX guarding the hen house says everything is OK...everything must be OK.😳
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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #1672 on: November 11, 2017, 03:18:48 PM »
The depth of betrayal by the sitting POTUS against his own country is stunning, but it's just another day in Trumplandia.

Neven

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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #1673 on: November 11, 2017, 03:32:21 PM »
I see that you are still pissing on Hillary and the A+ rated Clinton Foundation, Terry.
You do realize that your cherry-picking unfounded line items are indistinguishable from right-wing Clinton smearing, don't you ?
And that your remarks have nothing to do with RussiaGate...

It does indirectly have to do with Russiagate in that there's a double standard and an either/or proposition where we have to pick between factions in the oligarch power+money game, one having a pretty face, the other a vulgar one. But they're basically the same.

Al Capone was also a great philanthropist.



That's what bothers me about Russiagate, besides the 'fake news' branding (with Twitter and Facebook arbiters of what may pass and what not) and the danger of the whole thing backfiring.

But I've said it before and I'm only saying it again, because I'm in a foul mood. Sorry.
Il faut comparer, comparer, comparer, et cultiver notre jardin

pileus

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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #1674 on: November 11, 2017, 04:33:53 PM »
Conservative voices in the NeverTrump camp understand the gravity of Russia's violation of US sovereignty and Trump's likely collusion with the Kremlin, and Trump's affinity for Putin.

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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #1675 on: November 11, 2017, 06:33:32 PM »
@Neven. That's so simplistic. For a more in-depth treatment, try this https://www.nytimes.com/2016/11/06/magazine/when-hillary-and-donald-were-friends.html or this https://www.newyorker.com/news/news-desk/memories-of-trumps-wedding. "Most of the Trumps’ guests, I reckon, are anti-Trumpists. They will be feeling a kind of baffled retrospective horror."

Quote
Though the Clintons might show up at some events and galas and friends’ birthday parties, they were never really around enough to become part of the society dinner-party circuit, either. When I asked Trump last summer to describe his relationship with the Clintons, he was neutral: “As a businessman, you have to get along with all politicians,” he said. “I wouldn’t say it was a close relationship.”

Meanwhile, the Clinton Foundation leverages power and influence to help hundreds of millions around the world, and the Trump Foundation benefits Trump. They are not the same. This, for example, is a superb effort to bring solar power to Puerto Rico, funded by the CF: "How to Keep the Lights On After a Hurricane" https://www.nytimes.com/2017/10/23/opinion/hurricane-puerto-rico-electricity.html

Quote
Our organization, the Rocky Mountain Institute, works with the Clinton Foundation, international and regional partners, governments and utilities to help Caribbean island nations switch to modern and regionally abundant solar and wind power. Those efforts were going well before the latest hurricanes. Solar arrays in the Turks and Caicos Islands and on Cooper Island in the British Virgin Islands, among others, survived the hurricanes without damage and were able to provide electricity to nearby communities.


Hefaistos

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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #1676 on: November 11, 2017, 08:29:34 PM »
Conservative voices in the NeverTrump camp understand the gravity of Russia's violation of US sovereignty and Trump's likely collusion with the Kremlin, and Trump's affinity for Putin.

I'm glad to hear that Trump categorizes the intelligence community (CIA+FBI+NSA = ICA) report "Background to “Assessing Russian Activities and Intentions in Recent US Elections”" as a "political hack".
He's precisely right about that.
Let me quote from the report:   “Russian President Vladimir Putin ordered an influence campaign in 2016 aimed at the US presidential election."
Problem is, that the only hard fact the report presents, is built on revelations by a hacker calling himself Guccifer 2, who is claimed to have been working for Russian intelligence, the GRU.
However, that information is false, Guccifer 2 is a hoax, thoroughly analyzed:
http://g-2.space/#1
https://nef4rhc.wordpress.com/

The ICA report is highly politicized throughout, and without Guccifer2, it contains no valid supporting evidence. Yes, indeed a 'poltitical hack'.

pileus

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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #1677 on: November 12, 2017, 12:10:08 AM »
Moving back to reality, here's a statement from Republican Senator John McCain.

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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #1678 on: November 12, 2017, 12:35:33 AM »
Hopefully this will push Lindsay Graham further from Trump...and send up a flare for Corker and Flake.  That is truly a HOLY SHIT statement by Trump.  If someone tells you he is in Putins camp...you damn well better believe him.

Does Vladi get to fly on Air Force One? 😳😳😳
« Last Edit: November 12, 2017, 12:47:42 AM by Buddy »
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Rob Dekker

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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #1679 on: November 12, 2017, 01:11:06 AM »
After Tony Podesta resigned from the Podesta Group two weeks ago, it now appears that the whole company is shutting down :

http://www.cnn.com/2017/11/11/politics/podesta-group-mueller-investigation/index.html

Quote
Kimberley Fritts, the chief executive of the Podesta Group, told employees during a Thursday staff meeting that the firm would cease to exist at the end of the year, according to two sources. Employees were asked to clear out their desks and were told they may not be paid beyond November 15, multiple sources said.

To me, that suggests that Mueller has an indictment ready for Tony Podesta.
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Rob Dekker

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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #1680 on: November 12, 2017, 02:21:05 AM »
It does indirectly have to do with Russiagate in that there's a double standard and an either/or proposition where we have to pick between factions in the oligarch power+money game, one having a pretty face, the other a vulgar one. But they're basically the same.

Al Capone was also a great philanthropist.
....
That's what bothers me about Russiagate, besides the 'fake news' branding (with Twitter and Facebook arbiters of what may pass and what not) and the danger of the whole thing backfiring.

But I've said it before and I'm only saying it again, because I'm in a foul mood. Sorry.

Yes you have said that before, and it is still a very naive and potentially dangerous opinion, since you leave the FACTS out of the equation.

Not every person with money and power is the same. In FACT they are all different. Trump and Obama are not the same. Buffet and the Koch brothers are not the same. Hitler and Merkel are not the same. Putin and Al Capone are similar but there is still a difference in scale.

Everyone is different, and if you throw them all on one pile just because they have power and/or money you are acting extremely reckless. You are also insulting fact based reasoning and rational thought.

Using your argument and apply it to ClimateGate instead : YES you can choose between 'scientists' and 'skeptics' and you can do that based on FACTS.

And you can see a difference between the Clinton Foundation and the Trump Foundation once you look at the FACTS. I think Susan Anderson showed a good example on how to start doing that.

FACTS are not just stubborn thing that give us solid ground in reasoning, they also are essential for us to distinguish between lies and truth, which is necessary to forming an opinion between bad and good or right and wrong. Which is what drives us to take a stand on ANY subject.

If instead you simply define everyone with money and power as 'bad' and everyone without it as 'good' you are throwing all fact based reasoning out the window.

And that is just WRONG.
« Last Edit: November 12, 2017, 03:55:50 AM by Rob Dekker »
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Hefaistos

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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #1681 on: November 12, 2017, 12:00:27 PM »
Moving back to reality, here's a statement from Republican Senator John McCain.

Contrasting war-monger McCain's statement, with presidential words:     "When will all the haters and fools out there realize that having a good relationship with Russia is a good thing, not a bad thing. There always playing politics - bad for our country. I want to solve North Korea, Syria, Ukraine, terrorism, and Russia can greatly help!"
    — Donald J. Trump (@realDonaldTrump) November 12, 2017

gerontocrat

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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #1682 on: November 12, 2017, 01:03:22 PM »
I did not realise until 5 minutes ago that NATO, Sweden and Putin's Russia was such a hot potato. Hence a desire of at least one resident of Uppsala wishing to distance himself from McCain's hot words?
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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #1683 on: November 12, 2017, 02:27:27 PM »
Moving back to reality, here's a statement from Republican Senator John McCain.

Contrasting war-monger McCain's statement, with presidential words:     "When will all the haters and fools out there realize that having a good relationship with Russia is a good thing, not a bad thing. There always playing politics - bad for our country. I want to solve North Korea, Syria, Ukraine, terrorism, and Russia can greatly help!"
    — Donald J. Trump (@realDonaldTrump) November 12, 2017

Relying on the words of Donald Trump as a source of truth and/or authentic intent?  I wish you much luck and god speed in your journey.

Hefaistos

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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #1684 on: November 12, 2017, 03:31:34 PM »
Moving back to reality, here's a statement from Republican Senator John McCain.

Contrasting war-monger McCain's statement, with presidential words:     "When will all the haters and fools out there realize that having a good relationship with Russia is a good thing, not a bad thing. There always playing politics - bad for our country. I want to solve North Korea, Syria, Ukraine, terrorism, and Russia can greatly help!"
    — Donald J. Trump (@realDonaldTrump) November 12, 2017

Relying on the words of Donald Trump as a source of truth and/or authentic intent?  I wish you much luck and god speed in your journey.

You talk about 'reality' as in McCain's reality. There are other perceoptions of what 'reality' is in this Russiagate. Lot's of information on it is heavily politicized, built on extremely vague evidence, if any at all. Lot's of misunderstandings, even wilful misinterpretations. Evil, warmongering agendas.
Maybe Russiagate's a hoax? If you e.g. read the ICA report, all you see is politics. (knowing that Guccifer 2 is a hoax)

Buddy

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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #1685 on: November 12, 2017, 04:11:45 PM »
Hefaistos:

Its fascinating to me that most of the skeptics regarding RussiaGate come from OUTSIDE the US:  Canada, Australia, Austria....and now Sweden.  Fascinating.  All of you are certainly smarter than I...as I have only had 20 years experience in actually viewing the US politics as an adult....and as an INDEPENDENT my whole voting life.

There are TWO THINGS for sure in RussiaGate:

1). Mueller has a LOT more information than anyone knows...

2). Moron Don and his band of incompetents CONTINUE to be caught in lies.. that ARE viewable by the public.  I can't wait to see the lies that are currently knowable by Mueller.

Why does Donnie and company continue to be caught in lies?  We will find out in coming months...

Cheers....

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Sigmetnow

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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #1686 on: November 12, 2017, 06:05:34 PM »
”Whether Trump ‘accepts’ reality on Russia is a non-story the media never should have started covering. Legally speaking, all that matters is that he knew it was ‘highly likely’ Russia was hacking America as of August 17, 2016 (his first security briefing).”

https://twitter.com/sethabramson/status/929747765546143744
(Related article at the link.)
People who say it cannot be done should not interrupt those who are doing it.

pileus

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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #1687 on: November 12, 2017, 06:06:24 PM »
Moving back to reality, here's a statement from Republican Senator John McCain.

Contrasting war-monger McCain's statement, with presidential words:     "When will all the haters and fools out there realize that having a good relationship with Russia is a good thing, not a bad thing. There always playing politics - bad for our country. I want to solve North Korea, Syria, Ukraine, terrorism, and Russia can greatly help!"
    — Donald J. Trump (@realDonaldTrump) November 12, 2017

Relying on the words of Donald Trump as a source of truth and/or authentic intent?  I wish you much luck and god speed in your journey.

You talk about 'reality' as in McCain's reality. There are other perceoptions of what 'reality' is in this Russiagate. Lot's of information on it is heavily politicized, built on extremely vague evidence, if any at all. Lot's of misunderstandings, even wilful misinterpretations. Evil, warmongering agendas.
Maybe Russiagate's a hoax? If you e.g. read the ICA report, all you see is politics. (knowing that Guccifer 2 is a hoax)

The proclivity to see and dismiss every person and entity that doesn't fit your confirmation bias as a boogeyman or liar must be a difficult way to exist in the real world.  There is an established and growing body of findings and evidence regarding Russia's violation of US sovereignty and interference in the 2016 election.  And there will be even more reveled in the coming months from the Special Prosecutor's office.  And those of us who live in America and have followed Donald Trump since the 80s understand he is not motivated by benevolence and visions of spreading peace across the world, hand in hand with Putin and the Kremlin.  That's laughable to the point of absurdity.

TerryM

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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #1688 on: November 12, 2017, 07:01:02 PM »
Hefaistos:

Its fascinating to me that most of the skeptics regarding RussiaGate come from OUTSIDE the US:  Canada, Australia, Austria....and now Sweden.  Fascinating.  All of you are certainly smarter than I...as I have only had 20 years experience in actually viewing the US politics as an adult....and as an INDEPENDENT my whole voting life.

There are TWO THINGS for sure in RussiaGate:

1). Mueller has a LOT more information than anyone knows...

2). Moron Don and his band of incompetents CONTINUE to be caught in lies.. that ARE viewable by the public.  I can't wait to see the lies that are currently knowable by Mueller.

Why does Donnie and company continue to be caught in lies?  We will find out in coming months...

Cheers....
As one who only spent 41 years as an adult actually viewing and participating in American politics as a DEMOCRAT, might I suggest that those of us presently away from America's shores, are also away from the direct influence of the propaganda that might be distorting your views?
Do you recall when the States had their rather abrupt hate for France? Many Americans thought it  "Patriotic" to call french fries "Freedom Fries", and to pour fine wine into the gutter. Personally I developed a craving for Perrier, and ordered it at every meal.
Perhaps you thought it normal to have thousands of women sew together vagina hats, in an astonishingly short period of time, then wear them in public, proudly. Some thought this was indicative of a great patriotic movement. Some thought this smelled of Soros recent obsession with a particular facet of female anatomy, and a very direct signal indicating the sponsor of the "event".(think "Pussy Riot" in Russia)
Since you've only been politically aware for 20 years, examples from Nixon's time, even Reagan's time, would be as lost on you as lessons from Hoover or Roosevelt's administrations would be lost in the haze of history to me.
I'm not claiming that any of us are free from propaganda. I am claiming that some of us are much less immersed in American propaganda than others.


Terry

Jim Pettit

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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #1689 on: November 12, 2017, 11:30:32 PM »
It pains me to see people here repeating easily-debunked claims birthed on and propagated by far right media outlets. Most recently, someone above used chickenshit Fox/Grudge tactics to smear the tens of thousands of women who participated in the creation of hundreds of thousands of pink hats worn at the January Women's March on Washington by insinuating in a disturbingly Hannity-like way that maybe frequent RWNJ boogeyman George Soros planned, and footed the bill for, the whole thing, as though it wasn't a provably grassroots project started last Thanksgiving by a pair of recreational knitters upset by Trump's popular-vote-losing "victory".

I really wish we'd leave the cheap smears for Breitbart...

Rob Dekker

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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #1690 on: November 13, 2017, 05:20:00 AM »
Contrasting war-monger McCain's statement...

Thanks for a good laugh.

McCain rightfully called out Trump, for believing Putin over his own intelligence agencies and there is no "war-monger"(ing) in doing so.

If anyone is a "war-monger" it is Trump with his "Fire and Fury" threat.

Quote
I really wish we'd leave the cheap smears for Breitbart...

+1
« Last Edit: November 13, 2017, 05:26:41 AM by Rob Dekker »
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Rob Dekker

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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #1691 on: November 13, 2017, 07:35:22 AM »
Allegedly hacked text messages show how Manafort's daughter Andrea spoke out about Manafort's influence on Yanukovych in Ukraine during the EuroMaidan uprising :

http://www.businessinsider.com/paul-manafort-daughter-text-messages-ukraine-2017-3

Quote
In a series of texts reviewed by Business Insider that appear to have been sent by Andrea to her sister, Jessica, in March 2015, Andrea said their father had "no moral or legal compass."

"Don't fool yourself," Andrea wrote to her sister, according to the texts. "That money we have is blood money."

"You know he has killed people in Ukraine? Knowingly," she continued, according to the reviewed texts. "As a tactic to outrage the world and get focus on Ukraine. Remember when there were all those deaths taking place. A while back. About a year ago. Revolts and what not. Do you know whose strategy that was to cause that, to send those people out and get them slaughtered."

In Manafort's defense :

Quote
Ukraine's interior minister issued a warrant for Yanukovych's arrest shortly after the uprising. He fled to Russia and was granted asylum.

Manafort has not been linked to the killings.

Yet.
But if his daughter's texts are to be believed, he may very well have been responsible for the policy to shoot at the protesters during EuroMaidan.
« Last Edit: November 13, 2017, 08:00:02 AM by Rob Dekker »
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sidd

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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #1692 on: November 13, 2017, 08:23:53 AM »
Mr. Terry writes: " ...  lessons from Hoover or Roosevelt's administrations would be lost in the haze of history ... "

Well there are a couple of Santayana epigrams on that note. But the reference to the Roosevelt administration is quite instructive in that it was an earlier example of foreign interference in elections in the USA. In 1940.

https://www.politico.com/magazine/story/2017/01/when-a-foreign-government-interfered-in-a-us-electionto-reelect-fdr-214634

Of course there is the Nixon torpedo of Vietnam peace talks and Reagan campaign sabotage of Iran hostage release and ...

Never mind. Mr. Terry you are correct. No one reads history anymore, or seems to learn anything from it.

sidd

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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #1693 on: November 13, 2017, 08:52:44 AM »
Never mind. Mr. Terry you are correct. No one reads history anymore, or seems to learn anything from it.

Well, since "Mr. Terry" can't even recall recent events correctly, I doubt that he represents "history" in an unbiased way.
« Last Edit: November 13, 2017, 09:00:50 AM by Rob Dekker »
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Rob Dekker

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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #1694 on: November 13, 2017, 09:12:18 AM »
And sidd, your link presents an interesting story, but no evidence.
I my opinion, the US was pulled into WWII because of the Pearl Harbor attack and the declaration of war by Germany on the US. Not by some covert operation from the UK to affect US elections.

But I've got the feeling that we are diverting from the subject of this thread.
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TerryM

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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #1695 on: November 13, 2017, 11:58:18 AM »
It pains me to see people here repeating easily-debunked claims birthed on and propagated by far right media outlets. Most recently, someone above used chickenshit Fox/Grudge tactics to smear the tens of thousands of women who participated in the creation of hundreds of thousands of pink hats worn at the January Women's March on Washington by insinuating in a disturbingly Hannity-like way that maybe frequent RWNJ boogeyman George Soros planned, and footed the bill for, the whole thing, as though it wasn't a provably grassroots project started last Thanksgiving by a pair of recreational knitters upset by Trump's popular-vote-losing "victory".

I really wish we'd leave the cheap smears for Breitbart...
Jim
I'm sorry that you find the story that 2 recreational knitters organised, and funded, what was probably the largest protest in the US for the year, ever remotely believable. I have to assume you've never taken part in any major protests yourself, or you would probably have some knowledge of the planning, preparation and logistics involved.


Here in Canada Fox is not aired, so references to Fox/Grudge, or Hannity, simply have little applicability. Searching for connections between myself and the right will come up empty. I'm an overaged hippy whose values haven't been modified by the intervening years.


I'd also be more than willing to compare our respective histories re. support for, sometimes radical left wing causes. If the right sometimes espouses truth, it's only because, like a broken watch, from time to time they, unaware, stumble across it in the darkness of their musings.


My Icon is actually a (fairly recent)? photo of me taken during a leftist Canadian protest, protesting one of Harper's overreaching ploys. My earliest participation dates back to the People's Park March in Berkeley. I didn't get a degree, but I did get an education. :)


When was the last time you were in the street with a placard? and who was it that were you willing to face arrest for?


Terry


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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #1696 on: November 13, 2017, 05:43:39 PM »
Contrasting war-monger McCain's statement...

Thanks for a good laugh.
McCain rightfully called out Trump, for believing Putin over his own intelligence agencies and there is no "war-monger"(ing) in doing so.
If anyone is a "war-monger" it is Trump with his "Fire and Fury" threat.

My pleasure!
Mocking Trump Doesn’t Prove Russia’s Guilt.

If ever there were a case of a drip, drip, drip campaign of telling the same baseless allegation over, and over again, this Russian hacking, or it destroying American democracy is it.

“A lie told once remains a lie but a lie told a thousand times becomes the truth”. -Joseph Goebbels

Lot's of groupthink, and a total lack of evidence.

https://consortiumnews.com/2017/11/13/mocking-trump-doesnt-prove-russias-guilt/

Buddy

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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #1697 on: November 13, 2017, 06:09:41 PM »
Trump has a LONG HISTORY of telling lie.....after lie.....after lie.  He is nothing more than a con man.  He tried to con people into believing he could run gambling businesses in Atlantic City.....and they failed.

He lied about Trump University.....building it up bigger than life.....all of it built on lies that came crashing Down.

He made a crappy investment in a Soho development and tried to lie his way out of that one.  He even had to lie about the crowd size at his inauguration.

His real estate business....as well as Kushners.....are in SERIOUS NEED OF CASH.  Cash they will NOT get unless he stays in office.

Donnie and his cronies have continued to lie about contacts with the Russians.....why is that?  You can't answer that one can you?   Too many of his people....including him..... have lied.  And more indictments are likely to be unsealed as soon as the fat walrus gets home from Asia.

Donnie is a sick.....demented sociopath that is going to implode.  Tick......tick......tick......
« Last Edit: November 13, 2017, 07:15:22 PM by Buddy »
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TerryM

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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #1698 on: November 13, 2017, 10:08:35 PM »
Perhaps a slightly aged recap from the proudly progressive "The Nation" would chill the Left vs Right nature that Russiagate seems to have acquired.


https://www.thenation.com/article/a-leak-or-a-hack-a-forum-on-the-vips-memo/


This "leftist rag" had earlier published an article that the DNC hack had to have been a DNC leak as proven by the speed of the file transfer captured and saved in the meta-data.
Some objected to this appraisal so The Nation responded by publishing their objections, responses to their objections, and finally the objections to the objections to the objectors objections. Whew!


The article itself is filled with contradictory conclusions, and I might suggest skipping straight to the comments section for the less technically astute.
Bear in mind while reading that Wikileaks insists there was no state involvement in the DNS leaks that they obtained and published. Also the complexity required by the deniers in concluding that under very convoluted circumstances data downloads at such transfer rates could be possible. Occam's beard might have concealed much had he awaited such a complex shave.


One or more of the commenters also asks why the former ambassador who claims specific knowledge re. the leak has never been questioned under oath.


Terry

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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #1699 on: November 14, 2017, 02:30:19 AM »
Lol.....and the beat goes on.  We're still early....there is much...much...more.  Can't wait for the serious stuff to come out.

The Wilileaks stuff is obvious stuff that would have been known to anyone who was watching the campaign.  The other stuff like money laundering...working with the Russian mob...and other will be coming to light.

Mikey, Donnie, Donnie Jr., Jason Chaffetz, Devin Nunez, Rudy Guiliani...and a boatload of others....will be caught up in this.  And the Trumps will be doing jail time.  That will really break my heart ❤️. 😂😂

That DAMN TRUTH.  It just doesn't go away!!!😤
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