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Author Topic: The Russiagate conspiracy theory  (Read 1131982 times)

Martin Gisser

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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #3150 on: March 15, 2018, 11:01:59 AM »
Concentrated wealth benefits all around,
Methinks a major flaw in your arguments is that you oversimplify concentrated wealth into one monolith. E.g. it took some time and some killings until Russian oligarchs got consolidated into one block under Putin. But this is not the case in the West.  I would divide The Big Ones into at least 2 blocks: 1) Fossil fools / Kochtopus / Trumpists  2) 21st century tech.

The only thing that unites them is compound interest.

But there is still competition. (E.g. The ones who deal with Russians lose, the others win.)

---------------
Edits finished. Now me run away for some days.
« Last Edit: March 15, 2018, 11:11:18 AM by Martin Gisser »

Neven

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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #3151 on: March 15, 2018, 11:10:17 AM »
I don't know, Martin. I think that concentrated wealth and the whole system geared towards it, is more powerful than even its owners. It doesn't really matter who owns it, or what the intentions of the owners are, as long as it gets bigger. It doesn't matter what happens or who suffers, as long as it gets bigger.

And besides, why should we pick between oligarchs? I thought we were living in modern times.
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Martin Gisser

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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #3152 on: March 15, 2018, 11:14:26 AM »
I don't know, Martin. I think that concentrated wealth and the whole system geared towards it, is more powerful than even its owners. It doesn't really matter who owns it, or what the intentions of the owners are, as long as it gets bigger. It doesn't matter what happens or who suffers, as long as it gets bigger.

And besides, why should we pick between oligarchs? I thought we were living in modern times.

Yes, there's an abstract system which enslaves all riches: Compound interest, the need to grow exponentially (to keep the risk of ruin constant).

I would prefer Elon Musk anytime over Yevgeny Prigozhin. See the difference?
« Last Edit: March 15, 2018, 11:35:36 AM by Martin Gisser »

Neven

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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #3153 on: March 15, 2018, 11:35:44 AM »
I would prefer Elon Musk anytime over Yevgeny Prigozhin. See the difference?

1. No, not really. For Elon Musk to overcome Prigozhin, he would have to become like Prigozhin. That's not Musk's fault, the system simply demands it of him. It's the system that is the problem, not whether an oligarch is good or bad.
2. If I'm going to be ruled by kings, I want to know who they are, so we can do away with the illusion of freedom and democracy. This also means that, basically, what we are doing here and in the other political threads, is fight for our oligarchs, the good oligarchs.

Would you consider it possible that the various oligarchs on 'both' sides are quite happy with the narrative of 'Russia is the source of all our woes', because it effectively clouds the real issues people should be thinking about? Or is that impossible?
« Last Edit: March 15, 2018, 12:05:57 PM by Neven »
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johnm33

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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #3154 on: March 15, 2018, 04:07:55 PM »
 Craig Murrays most recent posts address the "novichocks" poisoning, he's a former ambassador to Uzbekistan who refused to go along with the support of the deeply corrupt and brutal regime in place there. It lost him his carreer and deeply affected his health for a number of years, he still has some inside contacts and although not always correct, as time shows, he is very well informed.  https://www.craigmurray.org.uk/

AbruptSLR

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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #3155 on: March 15, 2018, 04:28:37 PM »
Freedom of speech for Stormy Daniels!

Title: "BuzzFeed maneuver could free Stormy Daniels to speak on Trump"

https://www.politico.com/story/2018/03/14/buzzfeed-stormy-daniels-trump-462261

Extract: "BuzzFeed may have found a legal opening to allow the porn actress Stormy Daniels to discuss her alleged relationship with President Donald Trump and a $130,000 payment she received just before the 2016 election as part of a nondisclosure agreement she is now trying to void.

The same Trump attorney who brokered the deal with Daniels, Michael Cohen, filed a libel suit in January against BuzzFeed and four of its staffers over publication of the so-called dossier compiling accurate, inaccurate and unproven allegations about Trump’s relationship with Russia.

Now, BuzzFeed is using Cohen’s libel suit as a vehicle to demand that Daniels preserve all records relating to her relationship with Trump, as well as her dealings with Cohen and the payment he has acknowledged arranging in 2016.

On Tuesday, BuzzFeed’s lawyer wrote to Daniels’ attorney asking that the adult film actress, whose real name is Stephanie Clifford, preserve various categories of documents. Such preservation letters are often a prelude to a subpoena. If Daniels’ testimony is formally demanded in a deposition, the nondisclosure agreement would likely be no obstacle, legal experts said."
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Neven

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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #3156 on: March 15, 2018, 06:27:35 PM »
To go back to the Skripal case, I just wanted to say that the reverse is also true: If it turns out Putin didn't have anything to do with it, that doesn't mean he's now a great guy. I've translated a couple of documentaries on the horrible things the Russians have done in Daghestan and Chechnya.

To emphasize I'm not defending Putin here. It might very well be that Russia is behind the attack on Skripal. But it's also possible that someone wants to fan the flames, either another country like Ukraine, or western intelligence agencies doing the bidding of the military-industrial complex. Or perhaps Skripal had other enemies.
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TerryM

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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #3157 on: March 15, 2018, 06:45:27 PM »
Craig Murrays most recent posts address the "novichocks" poisoning, he's a former ambassador to Uzbekistan who refused to go along with the support of the deeply corrupt and brutal regime in place there. It lost him his carreer and deeply affected his health for a number of years, he still has some inside contacts and although not always correct, as time shows, he is very well informed.  https://www.craigmurray.org.uk/


John
Very informative link. The ambassador's article is packed with detail that may prove hard to dispute. An alternate link;

https://www.craigmurray.org.uk/archives/2018/03/the-novichok-story-is-indeed-another-iraqi-wmd-scam/

leads straight to his piece on this topic;


The Irish Times is equally unimpressed by May's claims;

https://www.irishtimes.com/opinion/unlikely-that-vladimir-putin-behind-skripal-poisoning-1.3425736

as are our friends at the Jimmy Dore Show;



Personally the rush to judgment seems a far too familiar experience that's been repeated ad nauseum since Powell addressed the UN.



Terry


A-Team

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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #3158 on: March 15, 2018, 07:06:11 PM »
Quote
ignorant lazy chemically illiterate über-patriots frothing at the mouth as they beat the drums for another round of Cold War
Before posting more asinine comments about tammelin and novichok chemistry, be aware my first academic job, at the University of California, found me teaching synthetic organic chemistry at a time when my research concerned serine protease cascades only chirality-reversed from the target here. (Alert to non-US readers: America had a brief flirtation with science education, ironically after Sputnik.)

Unlike some of our proud patriots, I had no choice whatsoever in my parentage and could just as easily have been born into Swaziland, Swiss, Swedish, or Sumatran citizenship instead of Suburbian. In regards to climate change however, we are all in this together. There's no getting away from it in NZ, private islands, spaceships or whatever. This incident and the response to it will draw huge resources away into militarism that were better spent on mitigation of climate change, not that we were doing enough before.

Meanwhile, back at the fact-gathering stage, the lead UK investigator Bazu said yesterday many more weeks of work are needed to establish what happened. Right. They're still trying to lay out a time table of the Skirpals' movements and at what point and how they became exposed to toxin. After that they can look at attribution -- who did it and to what end.

Today authorities are belatedly pursuing poisoning of the maroon 2009 BMW 320 with plates HD09 WAO listed with 69,000 odometer miles. The door handle theory runs into various problems: why passenger door too? extreme risk to person applying poison? when were binary ingredients combined? sticky liquid or dry powder? rapid breakdown of A-242 [novichok-5] in Salisbury moisture? highly unpredictable dosage? volatilization loss?.

It's completely false that this class of agent is sensitive to oxygen. These chemicals are stable  in air (but they're made and stored as binaries, below). However you can see at a glance from the structures they will break down in seconds if exposed to water (even humidity). That's why the UK is having so much trouble getting macroscopic amounts.

It's complete rubbish to say a non-insecticidal nerve gas is "military grade". Who has ever manufactured 'consumer grade' nerve gases? The confusion here is with artillery shells and cruise missiles, the toxin might be purified to near-homogeneity to save on weight impurities might bring in. Here it makes no sense, bathtub-grade would be equally effective.

What part of b.i.n.a.r.y didn't you understand? Nerve gases are binary weapons: component A stored over here, component B stored over there, transport separately, mix just before use. In the case of novichok-5, both published, both legal, both widely used, both sold by chemical supply houses. The stabilities of A and B in storage also has been taken into account.

On the technical side, it's not been explained how Porton Down is running assays on all the chem swipes. No question, from 1992 on they would have reference samples on hand like the US Army labs concerned with chemical warfare. They would also have antidote in stock to protect their own staff from accidents, to the extent there's anything more effective than atropine and pralidoxime. [However hundreds of distinct compounds in the novichok category were made and explored to various extents.]

Analytic chemistry can certainly be done below the nanogram scale but it's not clear that the UK has recovered agent in milligram amounts (ie have nothing to hand over to the Russians for validation and not enough for isotopes of signature contaminants). What about reagents developed during the Gulf War, maybe immunofluorescence off the fluorine-phosphorus bond? That would have zero background as it does not occur in nature.

My guess though would be a colormetric inhibition assay for the enzyme acetylcholinesterase. A dual spray bottle, one tube with substrate, the other with enzyme and a reactant changing color when in contact with cleavage product. Spray it on the table at Zizzi's or the side of the BMW, see if color production is inhibited. PD would have had this on hand for decades for in-house safety.

The word novichok means newcomer in Russian but in English it is dog whistle code for commies and bring on the lynch mop. There's been zero analytic documentation released on the agent, they won't/can't provide samples while the Russians make jokes about Sherlock Holmes rolling over in his grave -- has the toxin actually been identified at the molecular level or are they just guessing/bluffing/politicizing.

What's up next, wave a little vial of fake WMD have guys in hazmet suits running around on tv to launch another war?

At any rate, I looked into other lethal incapacitants Russians have acknowledged using in the past, notably to resolve the Chechen theatre hostage crisis (84% rescued, 16% dead). The gas piped in was initially said to be 3-methylfentanyl but it was actually a carfentanil and remifentanil mix. [Carfentanil is not a controlled substance in China; it is manufactured legally there and sold over the open Internet, payPal accepted.]

Unsurprisingly, the first witness on the scene, the aerobics instructor -- and probably the police -- assumed the Skirpals had overdosed on street fentanyl. The hospital might even have put them on naloxone instead of pralidoxime. None of that is in the timeline so far.

Chasing down the history of countries like the US and UK who have used chemical weapons themselves either in warfare or assassinations would make for an extremely long post. I do recall  the open air tests of VX nerve gas that the US Army conducted at Dugway, Utah. A faulty nozzle on a warplane carrying a metric ton of agent drifted off onto a Skull Valley farm, killing some 6000 sheep and poisoning the rancher who was standing out in his yard watching birds drop dead out of the sky and jackrabbits keeling over.

I'm not posting novichok chemical structures nor the recommended binaries here since they're well known, all over the internet, in a $25 book at Amazon (free shipping with Prime) plus the Sun newspaper in the UK published a formula a couple days back.

False flag? I've no idea. It's premature to form an opinion so early in the investigation. If the UK knew what happened, the investigation would have been shut down by now. 

Bad for unity on climate change? Absolutely.
« Last Edit: March 15, 2018, 08:57:19 PM by A-Team »

Buddy

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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #3159 on: March 15, 2018, 07:20:01 PM »
Mueller Subpoenas Trump Organization, Demanding Documents About Russia

https://www.nytimes.com/2018/03/15/us/politics/trump-organization-subpoena-mueller-russia.html

Dearest Donnie:

Pretty please hand over the RussiaGate documents that we request from your company.

RIGHT F***ING NOW

Your pal....

Bob  ;)
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AbruptSLR

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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #3160 on: March 15, 2018, 11:50:51 PM »
The linked U.S. Treasury press-release includes sanctioning of the 13 Russians that Mueller indicted as part of the Russiagate investigation.  Thus the Trump Administration is admitting that: a) the Russians did meddle in the 2016 election and b) the Mueller investigation has merit:

Title: "Treasury Sanctions Russian Cyber Actors for Interference with the 2016 U.S. Elections and Malicious Cyber-Attacks"

https://home.treasury.gov/news/press-releases/sm0312

Extract: "Today, the U.S. Department of the Treasury’s Office of Foreign Assets Control (OFAC) designated five entities and 19 individuals under the Countering America’s Adversaries Through Sanctions Act (CAATSA) as well as Executive Order (E.O.) 13694, “Blocking the Property of Certain Persons Engaging in Significant Malicious Cyber-Enabled Activities,” as amended, and codified pursuant to CAATSA.       

“The Administration is confronting and countering malign Russian cyber activity, including their attempted interference in U.S. elections, destructive cyber-attacks, and intrusions targeting critical infrastructure,” said Treasury Secretary Steven T. Mnuchin.  “These targeted sanctions are a part of a broader effort to address the ongoing nefarious attacks emanating from Russia.  Treasury intends to impose additional CAATSA sanctions, informed by our intelligence community, to hold Russian government officials and oligarchs accountable for their destabilizing activities by severing their access to the U.S. financial system.” "
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idunno

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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #3161 on: March 16, 2018, 12:35:19 AM »
Corbyn in the UK stood alone, in one of his finer hours, in suggesting that the government might like to present some evidence, preferably to the relevant international supervisory agencies, and within the parameters of international diplomatic procedures and protocols...

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2018/mar/15/salisbury-attack-conflict-britain-cold-war

For which he's been getting a couple of days of press abuse. The May government has told the Russians to "shut up and go away" and will shortly be doing as Corbyn suggested. There are some unanswered questions...

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2018/mar/15/uks-claims-questioned-doubts-emerge-about-source-of-salisburys-novichok

Rob Dekker

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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #3162 on: March 16, 2018, 04:31:20 AM »
Regarding the Skripal assassination attempt, the news reads :

Quote
The leaders of France, Germany, the US and UK say there is "no plausible alternative explanation" to Russia having been behind the nerve agent attack in the UK.

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-43415271

Then I read this thread on the ASIF, and I see lots of doubts that Russia was involved.

That is fine. Everyone is entitled to their own opinion.
The thing is though, that if Russia was NOT involved, then WHO WAS ?

Using the scientific method, one can never prove the truth to be true.
One can only sometimes prove a false theory to be false if you have enough evidence.

So what are the alternative theories ?
And can we test them against the facts ?
« Last Edit: March 16, 2018, 04:38:03 AM by Rob Dekker »
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Rob Dekker

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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #3163 on: March 16, 2018, 04:48:55 AM »
Also, to put the Skripal assassination attempt into perspective :

Assad has just launched the 4th chemical attack on his own citizens in Eastern Ghouta this year alone :

https://www.bellingcat.com/news/mena/2018/03/15/syrian-forces-bombard-eastern-ghouta-chemical-weapons-fourth-consecutive-time-since-beginning-2018/

This attack was apparently fully approved by the Russian Defense Ministry, since they announced it on the same day.
« Last Edit: March 16, 2018, 05:02:58 AM by Rob Dekker »
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sidd

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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #3164 on: March 16, 2018, 05:06:01 AM »
From America's finest news source: Russian election moved up, Putin's a busy man:

"I’m completely swamped with planning and denying this whole assassination thing, so there’s no way that I’ll have time to go to celebrations and give triumphant speeches. "

"At press time, an increasingly exasperated Putin insisted this was the last time he would put up with “the expensive, inconvenient time sink” of even holding elections."

https://www.theonion.com/busy-schedule-forces-vladimir-putin-to-move-up-election-1823774805

sidd

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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #3165 on: March 16, 2018, 03:31:47 PM »
Maybe Mueller should investigate whether Team Trump threatened Stormy Daniels with physical harm prior to the 2016 election:

Title: "MSNBC commentator: If Stormy Daniels was threatened, it could ‘bring down this presidency’"

http://thehill.com/homenews/media/378755-msnbc-commentator-if-stormy-daniels-was-threatened-it-could-bring-down-this

Extract: "MSNBC commentator Donny Deutsch warned of the consequences on the Trump presidency if adult film star Stormy Daniels says she was threatened with physical harm.

"Is it fair to say, legal aside, if Stormy Daniels comes out and says that she was...physically threatened harm by either the president himself or somebody very close, that, and it seems to be credible, that, in and of itself would bring down this presidency, with what is going on in the world right now," Deutsch said on MSNBC's "Morning Joe."

He urged others on to think about what that could mean.

His comments come after Stormy Daniels' attorney on Friday said his client had been threatened with physical harm in connection to her alleged affair with Trump.

Asked on "Morning Joe" whether Daniels, whose real name is Stephanie Clifford, had ever been threatened with physical harm, lawyer Michael Avenatti, replied: "Yes."

It wasn't clear who allegedly threatened Daniels or what the exact nature of the threats was."
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AbruptSLR

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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #3166 on: March 16, 2018, 03:42:32 PM »
A Comey book tour beginning April 17, 2018, could put political heat on Team Trump and the GOP prior to the mid-term elections:

Title: "Exclusive: Comey to come out hot on book tour, correct lies"

https://www.axios.com/exclusive-james-comey-to-come-out-hot-on-book-tour-1521194341-e80832f7-6db7-4f4f-89a2-8d6c03e87bc0.html?source=sidebar

Extract: "Look for fired FBI Director James Comey to come out hot on the book tour that begins 30 days from now for "A Higher Loyalty: Truth, Lies, and Leadership," out April 17 from Flatiron Books."
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Neven

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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #3167 on: March 16, 2018, 04:04:23 PM »
So what are the alternative theories ?
And can we test them against the facts ?

I've posted a couple, but I don't think they will pass your fact checking criteriums.
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TerryM

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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #3168 on: March 16, 2018, 05:51:03 PM »
So what are the alternative theories ?
And can we test them against the facts ?

I've posted a couple, but I don't think they will pass your fact checking criteriums.


A continuation of Operation Gladio?
Check the BBC documentaries about this false flag apparatus set up by the victors after WWII


A way to silence Steel's critics - apparently Steele's headquarters is in or close to Salisbury?


MI5 and MI6 both are assumed to have access to Porton Down, the Chemical Weapons Facility within walking distance (miles) of the incident.


Defence CBRN Center, yet another "chemical training facility", this one within 8km of Salisbury.


If seems as though an almost infinite number of alternative theories are there to choose from. One of the least likely is an attack by Putin, weeks before his election, and in the run-up to the World Cup, which Russia will be hosting in 3 months.


Has anyone looked into a murder/suicide plot gone wrong? Why was his Moscovite daughter visiting, what was in her suitcase?


We could do this for a very long time without getting much closer to an answer.
It's taken 3 years just to finally learn that it was indeed the Maidana Thugs that brought in the Georgian snipers to kill off the "Heavenly Hundred", converting a protest to a coup.


Terry

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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #3169 on: March 16, 2018, 06:20:20 PM »
At least the UK believes that it is 'overwhelmingly likely' that Putin personally ordered the nerve agent attack:

Title: "UK's Johnson says it's 'overwhelmingly likely' Putin ordered nerve agent attack"

https://www.cnn.com/2018/03/16/europe/uk-russia-nerve-agent-spy-attack-intl/index.html

Extract: "UK Foreign Secretary Boris Johnson said Friday it was "overwhelmingly likely" that Russian President Vladimir Putin personally gave the order to use a nerve agent to attack a former double spy in what's the most direct accusation yet against Russia's leader."
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TerryM

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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #3170 on: March 16, 2018, 07:42:50 PM »
Where was Hans Blix on this?


"Blair and other leaders misrepresented reality, urging a war over the faulty picture they had created. I do not see evidence of bad faith, but I do see a disastrous failure of judgment."



This was Hans Blix responding to a question of why Britain had gone into Iraq even though they had been advised that there were no weapons of mass destruction held by Saddam.


I'm not sure that I would have been quite as forgiving of their motivation.
Terry

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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #3171 on: March 16, 2018, 07:43:56 PM »
Boris Brexit Johnson is not 'the UK'. He's a clown.

Corbyn asks questions, immediately smeared as Kremlin stooge:

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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #3172 on: March 16, 2018, 08:43:53 PM »
Here's a more reasoned evaluation, including a fair assessment of Corbyn's position: https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2018/mar/16/putin-lies-action-moscow-salisbury-attack

Quote
The error here is to assume that Moscow’s attitude to evidence and due process is the same as that of nations still governed by the rule of law. But in Putin’s Russia, lying has long been a routine and integral part of statecraft. No matter how copious the evidence, Putin will think nothing of denying it. In 2014, he swore there were no Russian troops in Crimea, even though reporters could see them with their own eyes. ....

That same year Moscow waved aside evidence relating to the downing of Malaysian Airlines flight MH17 over Ukraine. It continues to block investigations into the use of chemical weapons by its Syrian vassal, Bashar al-Assad. Putin denies hacking the 2016 US presidential elections, in the face of colossal evidence. And of course he denied any role in the murder of Litvinenko, though he did later ensure the killer got a seat in the Russian parliament, thereby granting him immunity from prosecution.

What meaning does “due process” have when dealing with such a regime? Moscow would not cooperate in good faith with an investigation by the international chemical weapons watchdog, offering up evidence that might be incriminating. They would see such an inquiry instead as a useful delaying tactic, one that would allow them to issue yet more denials, wild counter-accusations (“Salisbury was an MI5 plot to distract from Brexit”) and obfuscation – disseminated either through their RT propaganda TV station or by their army of bots and online enablers. That way they could generate yet more of the fog of doubt and confusion that they believe undermines the west’s confidence and strengthens them. This is the Putin modus operandi: spread doubt until the public grows exhausted and concludes that the truth is unknowable.

Many of you seem to fall into the trap of blaming either Russia or the US. I blame both, but not my friends and colleagues who have been fighting Reaganomics and Vietnam etc. with me during my lifetime.

Some of you appear to want to condemn people like me and have no scruples about the support you offer thereby to Putin and Trump. You prefer a visible enemy who responds to you, and refuse to acknowledge that Trump is a Putin asset. He and the kleptocratic Republicans in power are so awful you think you should attack his opponents and leave him alone. Go figure! Blame the minority for not being able to make a dent in the increasing absolutism of the ruling party. Let them cheat and steal elections. Believe me, this matters.

Since you're much closer to Russia than I am (and Canada is even safer) it is Europeans (and Africa and the Middle East) who are threatened by a resurgent cold war and an aggressor who has no scruples.  There is a long read on Putin in the Guardian: https://www.theguardian.com/news/2018/mar/16/vladimir-putin-russia-politics-of-eternity-timothy-snyder. I think some of you underestimate the power games and obvious evidence that Trump is in thrall (financial and blackmail) to Putin and will do nothing effective to oppose him.

The latest development makes it clear that Russia now has the ability to use the US power grid to create mayhem over here. I would not bet on his organization's refraining from doing so. Use your imagination.

Susan Anderson

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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #3173 on: March 16, 2018, 08:47:34 PM »
@abruptSLR: The US communique condemning Russia is a flat plagiarism of the Mueller indictments. In fact, every Republican effort has plagiarized instead of doing any independent work whatsoever.

Susan Anderson

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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #3174 on: March 16, 2018, 09:11:54 PM »
From the Guardian article cited and quoted above (not the "long read") here's a useful conclusion:

Quote
Labour and the rest of us need to see Putin for what he is. Not an admirable bulwark against US imperialism, but an ultra-nationalist bent on fomenting hate and division; an idol to Nigel Farage, Marine Le Pen and Trump who sees our democratic and legal traditions as weaknesses to be exploited. We must give him that chance no longer.

litesong

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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #3175 on: March 16, 2018, 09:22:49 PM »
@abruptSLR: The US communique condemning Russia is a flat plagiarism of the Mueller indictments. In fact, every Republican effort has plagiarized instead of doing any independent work whatsoever.
  Ah..... jes' da littl' bitty gov't re-pubic-lick-uns hav' wanted. re-pubic-lick-uns  says das jes' fine.... dandee, too.

Neven

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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #3176 on: March 16, 2018, 09:28:15 PM »
Here's a more reasoned evaluation, including a fair assessment of Corbyn's position: https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2018/mar/16/putin-lies-action-moscow-salisbury-attack

The mistake in this piece, in my opinion, is that the author assumes that the west is a monolith, and that western governments represent their people, and thus thinks and acts like we all do. It completely negates the forces in the west who are a mirror image of the author's description of Putin. There are a great many people, not a few in positions of power, who want nothing more than a New Cold War, because it will make lots of money and is an excellent way to suppress democratic forces and individual liberties.

Quote
Many of you seem to fall into the trap of blaming either Russia or the US. I blame both, but not my friends and colleagues who have been fighting Reaganomics and Vietnam etc. with me during my lifetime.

Some of you appear to want to condemn people like me and have no scruples about the support you offer thereby to Putin and Trump.

Maybe you're confusing this forum with other forums you're active on, but there aren't 'many' and they're certainly not persecuting you. But even if it were so, you are basically saying: Either you're with us or you're with the terrorists. But who is 'us'? The forces on both sides don't think like we do, along borders and nations. All they care about is getting rewarded for making the mountain of concentrated wealth bigger.

How do we resist both the forces within Russia surrounding Putin, as well as the forces within our own societies who are pushing for conflict and perhaps even war? Do we do that by choosing sides like they want us to?
 
Quote
You prefer a visible enemy who responds to you, and refuse to acknowledge that Trump is a Putin asset. He and the kleptocratic Republicans in power are so awful you think you should attack his opponents and leave him alone. Go figure! Blame the minority for not being able to make a dent in the increasing absolutism of the ruling party. Let them cheat and steal elections. Believe me, this matters.

That's for that other thread, where I need you to help me support Elisabeth Warren and other genuine progressives.

Quote
Since you're much closer to Russia than I am (and Canada is even safer) it is Europeans (and Africa and the Middle East) who are threatened by a resurgent cold war and an aggressor who has no scruples.

How do you want to solve AGW if there's a New Cold War? How do you want solve AGW if there's a new financial crisis, worse than 2008 (please help me on the other thread)?

And what happened to your thoughts on Gandhi? How do you prevent a New Cold War with a belligerent tone and threats of violence? What do you propose? Invading Russia? Or a nice proxy war somewhere?

Quote
  There is a long read on Putin in the Guardian: https://www.theguardian.com/news/2018/mar/16/vladimir-putin-russia-politics-of-eternity-timothy-snyder. I think some of you underestimate the power games and obvious evidence that Trump is in thrall (financial and blackmail) to Putin and will do nothing effective to oppose him.

You need to replace Trump with ideas that get people energized, and give them hope that maybe this time there will really be a change. Even if you can replace Trump by putting all your eggs in the Russiagate basket, which I'm not so sure of, it may very well be a Pyrrhic victory, because you still haven't done anything to change the system. Trump's corrupt dealings with Russia and many other countries are just one piece of the pie. He was right that the swamp needs to be drained, but he's part of it and it needs more draining than ever.

Let me reiterate that I won't be surprised if Trump gets more and more cozy with the Deep State and the MIC, and Mueller is told to back down.

Quote
The latest development makes it clear that Russia now has the ability to use the US power grid to create mayhem over here. I would not bet on his organization's refraining from doing so. Use your imagination.

Source?
« Last Edit: March 16, 2018, 09:35:10 PM by Neven »
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E. Smith

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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #3177 on: March 16, 2018, 09:31:04 PM »
Non-Extant Russians

The UK has had more than its fair share of rich dead Russians littering the place in recent years - especially since it became clear that rich people were welcome in London, no matter what their antecedents.

But it seems that a surprising proportion of those who came to an untimely end had annoyed the democratically elected leader of the Russian Federation. It is amazing how much it upset so many of these very rich Russians to be on the wrong side of Russia's Great Leader, to the extent they succumbed to Slavic Melancholia and topped themselves.

Mr. Plod is looking at yet another rich and dead Russian - it appears the incompetent oaf tried to strangle himself with his bare hands before finding a rope.

A cynic might say that you can take the President out of the KGB, but you can't take the KGB out of the President.

But when you open your capital city to every douche-bag with loads of dosh, what can you expect? (That remark is about London, not inside the Beltway - honest (??))
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Sigmetnow

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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #3178 on: March 16, 2018, 09:33:54 PM »
People who say it cannot be done should not interrupt those who are doing it.

Sigmetnow

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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #3179 on: March 16, 2018, 09:36:12 PM »
Meet The Activist Who Uncovered The Russian Troll Factory Named In The Mueller Probe
Quote
Internet activist Lyudmila Savchuk spent two months working in a "troll factory" in St. Petersburg, Russia. She was tasked with writing posts that would inflame anti-American sentiment among Russians. Others at the factory would write negative posts about American politicians, the war in Ukraine and America's NATO allies. ...
https://www.npr.org/sections/parallels/2018/03/15/594062887/some-russians-see-u-s-investigation-into-russian-election-meddling-as-a-soap-ope
People who say it cannot be done should not interrupt those who are doing it.

AbruptSLR

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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #3180 on: March 16, 2018, 09:37:45 PM »
Boris Brexit Johnson is not 'the UK'. He's a clown.

I guess that means that as Trump is also a clown, all of his tweets are meaningless.
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TerryM

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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #3181 on: March 16, 2018, 09:42:00 PM »
Here's a more reasoned evaluation, including a fair assessment of Corbyn's position: https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2018/mar/16/putin-lies-action-moscow-salisbury-attack

Quote
The error here is to assume that Moscow’s attitude to evidence and due process is the same as that of nations still governed by the rule of law. But in Putin’s Russia, lying has long been a routine and integral part of statecraft. No matter how copious the evidence, Putin will think nothing of denying it. In 2014, he swore there were no Russian troops in Crimea, even though reporters could see them with their own eyes. ....


I won't go any further with my critique, but the bolded is a fiction, a misrepresentation, or a falsehood, as anyone remotely aware of the situation would be aware.


Russian troops have been in Crimea for centuries. There have been two Russian naval bases there for a long - long time. Putin is aware of this, probably everyone in Russia over 6 is aware of this.
The idea that Putin would say this is laughable, equivalent to an American President claiming we have no military presence in Pearl Harbor. Total nonsense.


I won't continue pointing out the other fictions, misrepresentations or falsehoods in the article. It's as biased a piece of reporting as I've seen at this site.


You can do better.
Terry

Neven

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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #3182 on: March 16, 2018, 09:44:59 PM »
Neven:

Russian Hackers Attacking U.S. Power Grid and Aviation, FBI Warns
https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2018-03-15/russian-hackers-attacking-u-s-power-grid-aviation-fbi-warns

Oh, wow. They are everywhere, under our beds, in our closets, they could be your best friend, or some guy who set up a forum to talk about Arctic Sea Ice. The Russians Are Coming.

Look, even heroic genius Rick Perry says it:

Quote
Cyber-attacks are "literally happening hundreds of thousands of times a day," Energy Secretary Rick Perry told lawmakers during a hearing Thursday. "The warfare that goes on in the cyberspace is real, it’s serious, and we must lead the world."

Even if it's true, which I highly, highly doubt, I would say: Let them try. Let the country with an economy smaller than that of Spain, and a military budget that is half of this year's Pentagon budget increase, try and provoke American Empire. They'd be insane to even try it.

Are you guys really going to let them scare you into spending even more of your tax money on Lockheed, Blackwater and so on? Or are you going to be smart and decide there's one thing to be even more scared of? It starts with an A and ends with a W.
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E. Smith

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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #3183 on: March 16, 2018, 09:45:14 PM »
Boris Brexit Johnson is not 'the UK'. He's a clown.

I guess that means that as Trump is also a clown, all of his tweets are meaningless.

Trump and Johnson - "Send in the Clowns" ?

But where are the clowns
Send in the clowns
Don't bother, they're here
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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #3184 on: March 16, 2018, 09:45:44 PM »
Meet The Activist Who Uncovered The Russian Troll Factory Named In The Mueller Probe
Quote
Internet activist Lyudmila Savchuk spent two months working in a "troll factory" in St. Petersburg, Russia. She was tasked with writing posts that would inflame anti-American sentiment among Russians. Others at the factory would write negative posts about American politicians, the war in Ukraine and America's NATO allies. ...
https://www.npr.org/sections/parallels/2018/03/15/594062887/some-russians-see-u-s-investigation-into-russian-election-meddling-as-a-soap-ope
I wasn't aware that there was any secrecy regarding its existence. How does one "uncover" something that's never been buried?
Terry

Neven

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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #3185 on: March 16, 2018, 09:47:52 PM »
Meet The Activist Who Uncovered The Russian Troll Factory Named In The Mueller Probe
Quote
Internet activist Lyudmila Savchuk spent two months working in a "troll factory" in St. Petersburg, Russia. She was tasked with writing posts that would inflame anti-American sentiment among Russians. Others at the factory would write negative posts about American politicians, the war in Ukraine and America's NATO allies. ...
https://www.npr.org/sections/parallels/2018/03/15/594062887/some-russians-see-u-s-investigation-into-russian-election-meddling-as-a-soap-ope

There you have it! They're doing the exact same thing with the people of Russia. Don't you see how they're trying to set us up against each other? Why would we want to participate in that? Why do we think we need to choose one of the sides that are presented to us? We don't have to, and neither do the Russians! We and the people of Russia are on the same side!

« Last Edit: March 16, 2018, 09:59:22 PM by Neven »
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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #3186 on: March 16, 2018, 09:55:44 PM »

I won't go any further with my critique, but the bolded is a fiction, a misrepresentation, or a falsehood, as anyone remotely aware of the situation would be aware.

Terry, what you're doing here, is what makes Susan so angry. You pick out one sentence, say it's one of many falsehoods, and hit the tennis ball back over the net. Too many of us are doing that here, and it keeps all of us bogged down, whereas we need to find ways to get out of this together.

It's irrelevant if the details in the Guardian article Susan linked to, are all perfectly correct. The gist of the article is correct: Putin is a bad guy and Russia is an utterly corrupted oligarchy. The problem with the article, as I've stated in a previous post, is the implicit assumption that the West is the exact opposite. Just like in the good old days of Capitalism vs Communism.

But 1: there are forces within our societies that are an almost exact copy of those malignant forces in Russia (and they overlap!). And 2: The people of Russia is not our enemy!

We need to repeat this at every turn, in every conversation. If we don't, we inevitably become part of the dynamic those forces need to oppress us and the Russian people.

And then we can't solve AGW.
« Last Edit: March 16, 2018, 10:13:35 PM by Neven »
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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #3187 on: March 16, 2018, 10:38:02 PM »

I won't go any further with my critique, but the bolded is a fiction, a misrepresentation, or a falsehood, as anyone remotely aware of the situation would be aware.

Terry, what you're doing here, is what makes Susan so angry. You pick out one sentence, say it's one of many falsehoods, and hit the tennis ball back over the net. Too many of us are doing that here, and it keeps all of us bogged down, whereas we need to find ways to get out of this together.

It's irrelevant if the details in the Guardian article Susan linked to, are all perfectly correct. The gist of the article is correct: Putin is a bad guy and Russia is an utterly corrupted oligarchy. The problem with the article, as I've stated in a previous post, is the implicit assumption is that the West is the exact opposite. Just like in the good old days of Capitalism vs Communism.

But 1: there are forces within our societies that are an almost exact copy of those malignant forces in Russia (and they overlap!). And 2: The people of Russia is not our enemy!

We need to repeat this at every turn, in every conversation. If we don't, we inevitably become part of the dynamic those forces need to oppress us and the Russian people.


I'm not sure that I'm convinced of the bolded, at least not convinced that he is any worse than any other nation's leader - including my own dear Trudeau.
Russia is an Oligarchy, but not as much of an Oligarchy as it had been.
America is an Oligarchy, and I see no one in power trying to alter that fact.


When confronted by an article with so many errors my natural inclination is to attack each in turn. I feel that would detract from the flow of the thread so, rather than that I pointed out one of the more egregious errors and hoped to drop the matter.
I do not believe that the gist of the article was either correct, or that it was fair to Putin. the Russian government, nor the Russian people.


The "friendly green men" in Crimea were Russian military personnel that were there as part of a long term agreement. Anyone saying otherwise either knows nothing of the facts, or is attempting to sway the opinion of those with limited knowledge. Once that fact has been made clear the remainder of the article can be read with clarity.


I believe we are closer to war with a nuclear superpower today, than we've been since 1962. We would all be dead if a Russian sub commander hadn't been overruled by his political officer. - that was a squeaker.
AGW, the Paris Accord? We need to stop saying nasty things about Putin and Russia, mitigate some proportion of the damage  Trump is causing, and just possibly elect some people who care more about humanity than their own pocketbook.


I don't mind reading disinformation, as long as I'm aware of the author's bias. I read articles from the right, the left, and I would read some from an unbiased source if one exists. Knowledge is worthwhile no matter the source - as long as one is aware of the author's intent.


Terry

Susan Anderson

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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #3188 on: March 16, 2018, 10:43:02 PM »
Oh Neven, I'm just not that engaged [just a ridiculously fast writer/typist] and my responses here are about here, but sorry if you thought I was lumping everyone together, there are just a few that never fail to support Trump and Putin without seeming to realize that's what they're doing. [I am adopting a policy of no longer responding to that, as I no longer wish to amplify it, and I'm not here as much; as you once said, we're not going to solve much of anything here.] I thought the Guardian points were good but I'll reread your comments and think about them.

I am supporting Elizabeth Warren; I may even be the first person who brought her to your attention. I don't think you fully grok the federal politics over here: Warren and Markey (who is as good if not better than Warren on climate) are my Senators. I'm in this, and I'm resisting with all I've got. My father in New Jersey is pointing out good candidates there, as he knows the history and reputations. He was an early adopter of Shaughnessy Naughton of 314action.org, and it doesn't get much better than that. My father and I are supporting progressives, but it's hard to choose amongst the 50 or more solicitations per day we receive. I've told you about this, but you normally pass over that and return to your claims that I'm not doing what I can and I'm somehow wrong and part of the problem.

You have stated more than once that you don't want to deal with Trump and the Republicans because they're so awful, but we don't have that choice. They use every tool in the toolkit to silence us, including treating protesters as terrorists, jailing and killing and deporting "uppity" other races, etc.

Here's the power thing: Cyberattacks Put Russian Fingers on the Switch at Power Plants https://www.nytimes.com/2018/03/15/us/politics/russia-cyberattacks.html

By the way, I was also the first person to tell this forum about the Parkland shooting. The kids are more than all right. With them and women and real Democrats and mixed races, who are not confused about what is right and what is wrong, we're beginning to win. But you won't see the policies you're blaming on Democrats change until January, when we're likely to have a voice at least in the House of Representatives. We have no say at all now. Please stop blaming the minority for losing. [I agree about the traitors who undermined Dodd-Frank, but there is an argument that it handicaps small banks, and I'm in favor of small banks.]

I am not now and never have been for war. Where did you get that I am? I think economic sanctions and freezing oligarchs foreign accounts, and publicly listing oligarchs who own property in places like London is a good idea.
« Last Edit: March 16, 2018, 10:53:34 PM by Susan Anderson »

Neven

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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #3189 on: March 16, 2018, 11:12:37 PM »
there are just a few that never fail to support Trump and Putin without seeming to realize that's what they're doing.

I understand what you're trying to say, but we have to be careful to not automatically characterize calls for more levelheadedness and de-escalation as 'support for Trump and Putin'.

And instead of getting sucked into the vortex of media sensationalizing, we need to find ways to not fall into the traps that are being set to drag us into wars. These forces are not just sowing divisions within societies, but also

Quote
I am supporting Elizabeth Warren; I may even be the first person who brought her to your attention.

It is highly likely that you did. Thanks for that, she's awesome. Which is why she needs to get maximum support when calling out the traitors who helped the GOP push the Bank Lobbyist Act through. Because there needs to be a signal that enough is enough. Every single one of those senators need to be replaced by true progressives.

But that's for the other thread. Even though it is all connected! A lot of the energy to make Russiagate the basket to carry all eggs, and keep everyone riled up and not talking about policy and strategy, comes from forces within the Democratic Party who resist the change that people like Sanders and Warren are pushing.
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TerryM

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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #3190 on: March 17, 2018, 01:07:32 AM »
Thomas
Thanks, and Welcome


Neven is our host, and the following he's attracted over the years is unique on the internet IMHO. The political side is a relatively new addition that is far more confrontational than the more scientifically rigorous threads, but a high level of congeniality remains, and differences of opinion are generally accepted, if they can be defended.


Personally I spout things here that I might shy away from on sites that I feel are more likely to be monitored by Big Brother. There's seldom "piling on" or verbal bullying, and this also widens the avenues of discourse.


I've been dead wrong, particularly with various speculations regarding the failing Arctic ice, and the problems this is causing. Things are explained, and once I understand I can thank my peers without fear that "Gotcha Games" will come back to haunt me.


It's the best on the internet if you're interested in Arctic Ice, and it's proving to be a damn good venue for tossing around progressive political ideas as well.


Looking forward to learning your biases. :D
Terry


Rob Dekker

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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #3191 on: March 17, 2018, 04:44:24 AM »
Regarding uncovering the truth, yesterday I posted this :

Quote
Regarding the Skripal assassination attempt, the news reads :

Quote
The leaders of France, Germany, the US and UK say there is "no plausible alternative explanation" to Russia having been behind the nerve agent attack in the UK.
http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-43415271

Then I read this thread on the ASIF, and I see lots of doubts that Russia was involved.

That is fine. Everyone is entitled to their own opinion.
The thing is though, that if Russia was NOT involved, then WHO WAS ?

Using the scientific method, one can never prove the truth to be true.
One can only sometimes prove a false theory to be false if you have enough evidence.

Neven and Terry responded :

So what are the alternative theories ?
And can we test them against the facts ?

I've posted a couple, but I don't think they will pass your fact checking criteriums.


A continuation of Operation Gladio?
Check the BBC documentaries about this false flag apparatus set up by the victors after WWII


A way to silence Steel's critics - apparently Steele's headquarters is in or close to Salisbury?


MI5 and MI6 both are assumed to have access to Porton Down, the Chemical Weapons Facility within walking distance (miles) of the incident.


Defence CBRN Center, yet another "chemical training facility", this one within 8km of Salisbury.


If seems as though an almost infinite number of alternative theories are there to choose from. One of the least likely is an attack by Putin, weeks before his election, and in the run-up to the World Cup, which Russia will be hosting in 3 months.


Has anyone looked into a murder/suicide plot gone wrong? Why was his Moscovite daughter visiting, what was in her suitcase?

For starters, I admire that you guys question the official narrative in this case.
But in this case you are both on the far side of reality, and this is why :

You would need to pull in some REALLY weird conspiracy theories to doubt that Russia was behind the Skripal assassination attempt :

Take Neven's idea, for example : That is was the (Russian) 'oligarchs'.
If that were the case, the 'oligarchs' would have to have set up a pretty sophisticated chemical laboratory to develop Novichok, and they would have to have done that while Putin did not know about it. Moreover, while Putin was phasing out chemical weapons under the Chemical Weapons Convention :
https://www.opcw.org/chemical-weapons-convention/
If that were all the case, wouldn't you expect Putin (after the Skripal event) to make a statement that Russia was definitively not involved in this attack ? Instead he told the UK to "investigate".

And regarding Terry's theories, as far as I can see, all but two imply some sort of "false flag" operations. In other words, that some security agency in the west developed Novichok, and then used it in this "false flag" attack. Now think about that for a second.

It would imply that some agency in the US or the UK has set up a chemical weapons lab, where they secretly (without knowledge of the US or UK government) developed Novichok against the government policy to phase out chemical weapons. And for which reason would they do that ? We have already plenty of VX, which is deadly enough.
And to top it off this secretly developed Novichok is then used only to poison a retired Russian spy who we got back via a spy exchange ? You can't be serious.

And as with Neven's theory, if it was really a "false flag" attack, wouldn't you expect Putin (after the Skripal event) to make a clear statement that Russia was definitively not involved in this attack ? Instead he told the UK to "investigate".

The two remaining theories are :
- The "murder/suicide plot" where you apparently argue that the daugher wanted to kill her father.... with the nerve agent Novichok.... which she obtained from....because....?????

The only theory left over is the one you deem least likely :
Quote
is an attack by Putin, weeks before his election, and in the run-up to the World Cup, which Russia will be hosting in 3 months.

Can you both (Neven and Terry) drop your bias and face the facts in this case without resorting to conspiracy theories ?
« Last Edit: March 17, 2018, 05:17:46 AM by Rob Dekker »
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Rob Dekker

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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #3192 on: March 17, 2018, 05:49:18 AM »
Thomas, welcome to the ASIF.
You started your posts with the statement :
Quote
I am biased to Truth. The Truth, the whole Truth and nothing but the Truth. The good, the bad and the ugly. :-)

I like that. But I'm not sure you are ready for it.
For starters, the scientific method does not include 'Motive'. It actually does not even including 'proving' the truth. The scientific method works by EXCLUDING false theories.
So that's what I'm doing.

I'm looking forward to your defense of the theories that have been brought forward (by Neven and Terry), but if you have no such defense, then the only plausible theory left over is that the Russian state was behind the Skripal assassination attempt.

If you still insist on a motive, SteveMDFP (one of the voices of reason on this thread) provided one very plausible one here, which fits very nicely with the Putin policy of making a statement but one with 'plausible deniability' :
https://forum.arctic-sea-ice.net/index.php/topic,1974.msg145797.html#msg145797
Quote
If you want to both maintain plausible deniability on the international stage, but also send a clear message to intelligence officers who might contemplate betraying the motherland, then this is exactly what you do.  Exotic deaths by poorly-detectable means, delivered under mundane circumstances.  The assassins have little risk of being caught, tracing the origins is impossible, and prospective future targets realize there's no realistic way of staying safe after committing treason.  It's all very straightforward.
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Rob Dekker

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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #3193 on: March 17, 2018, 06:42:30 AM »
Thanks for the welcome Rob. Appreciated. I have been absorbing the good science and latest data on asif for years for my own purposes but remained silent. 

the only plausible theory left

That's a logical fallacy based on the false assumption that the correct theory was included in your list to begin with. There may be other much more plausible theories including the correct one, the truth of what happened and the motive behind it.

I'm open to new plausible theories. You have some ?
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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #3194 on: March 17, 2018, 10:58:14 AM »
First off, again, I'm not saying Russia/Putin didn't do this, but here are some alternative theories:

We all agree that Russia is a pretty corrupt country, right? This means that it's entirely possible that some Novichok was sold on some kind of black market, either to Russian criminals, or some intelligence organisation, or another country. Putin wouldn't have to know about this. I know he is portrayed as some evil mastermind who controls everything in Russia (vehemently denied by Russian activists), but I really don't believe he is omniscient and all-powerful, or there'd be a lot less corruption.

And yes, motives are important. The argument that Russia wants to send out a signal to other defectors or wannabe double spies, has some merit, but Skirpal has been in the UK since 2010, so why now? It also doesn't make sense really to send out such a signal right before the elections (which Putin will win anyway) and the World Cup. A stronger argument would perhaps be that Skripal knew something about Russiagate and had to be silenced. But if it's just about silencing, why kill him with Novichok then, which will immediately be seized upon as a Russian fingerprint? Why not use VX or some other stuff, a simple car accident or botched robbery?

As A-Team has explained, it isn't that difficult to make Novichok, and like I've just said, Russia is a corrupt country, so it should be obtainable. If someone wanted to frame Russia, it would make sense to use Novichok. The immediate judgment by politicians and the press, without a thorough investigation first, shows this to be a good tactic. In an atmosphere that is dominated by the narrative that Russia is the cause of all of our woes, it seems rather simple to pull off.

Who would want to frame Russia? And why? It could be a country that benefits if Russia gets isolated further. Take, for instance, Ukraine. There are forces within that country who would like Ukraine to join the EU and NATO, and have Russians expelled from the Crimea and Donbass regions. As a former USSR republic it should be possible to obtain Novichok, or have people who know how to make it.

It's also possible that part of the military-industrial complex wants to promote a New Cold War because it ensures high military budgets, and a scared population that will gladly give up its freedom in exchange for the illusion of security. It could come from the US MIC, or the Russian MIC, or both. It should be relatively easy to procure or produce Novichok for such powerful entities. It would also be relatively simple to amplify the narrative via media channels and organisations like the Atlantic Council.

The last possibility is that Skripal pissed someone off. I have read in several articles that Skripal was suspected to be still active in the spy world, which is why he lived in Salisbury of all places. Who knows what kinds of games he engaged in?

Plenty of suspects, plenty of motives. But whoever the culprit is, the reaction so far has probably been exactly what they were looking for. More division, more belligerent tones, more distraction from the call for systemic changes, business-as-usual, status quo.
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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #3195 on: March 17, 2018, 11:26:51 AM »
Another consequence of Russiagate that is hardly discussed: It makes Putin stronger.

From the Real News Network:



Some quotes:

Quote
So we have situation when Western take on Russia creates even more support to Putin inside Russia. Because the image is simple, it's not a good idea to discuss questions of internal contradictions, economic social inequality and so on. We must be, we Russians must be consolidated because there is one common enemy, and this is NATO, and NATO is telling terrible things against us. They take us and it's really true.

So this creates an image of Putin as the only protector and defender of Russia in the terrible situation and for victory of Putin. Western media made more than any other channel in Russia.

(...)

I want to stress that Navalny was not serious opponent of Putin, and in Russia he was not popular. He was mainly created as an enemy of President by Western mass media and the few liberal sources of information in Russia. He doesn't have big support of population and he has very strange program where you can find mixture of liberal ideas, ideas of Russian nationalism, everything. Populistic leader, more similar with Le Pen than with democratic liberal alternative as he's presented in the Western media.

(...)

If they compare programs, I think program of Grudinin is the best. As I said it is combination of well-known slogans which are important to realization of which is very important for Russia. Strategic planning and strong industrial policy in order to create circumstances for rebuild high tech production, education, science in our country, rebirths of material production, first of all were important to us. Second, socialization of education, healthcare, and culture. They have terrible trends of commercialisation and privatization of social spheres and the socialization of the spheres through bureaucratisation and decommercialization. Free of charge education and healthcare is very important point and that is one of the main points of Grudinin. Redistribution of wealth. Decline of inequality through progressive income tax and so on. Also one important point and I completely agree with this idea.

He has also some points to support more democratic political system. It is one of the paradoxes. Stalinist Communist Party of Russian Federation is standing for more democracy in political sphere for modern Russia. But it's true. Communist Party of Russian Federation and Grudinin in particular. It has the slogans of big power of parliament, impossibility to use money for political struggle, more freedom of speech, and so on and so forth.
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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #3196 on: March 17, 2018, 01:37:33 PM »
Very interesting interview with the Intercept's Jeremy Scahill on Democracy Now!:



Quote:

Quote
The Mueller investigation, I think, is going to be really fascinating to watch. Not just for the obvious, but because I think the road that Mueller seems to be going down, is more of a classic financial crimes route. And that's part of why... You know, a lot of people attack The Intercept and say: It's the Putincept, or, you know, Glenn Greenwald is denying... If you actually read this, the general position has been: Let's see the evidence in these things, let's also not go crazy with this New Cold War rhetoric. But also, there's a value to everyone yelling 'Russia, Russia, Russia' all the time, if the real issue is financial crimes. Because it's going to kind of lessen it. Financial crimes aren't as sexy, you know. So, short of, like, the public seeing the pee tape, MSNBC and a lot of liberals have gone way out of their way to, sort of, portray this as a Russian invasion. And they've set the standard so high, anything less than that is going to be underwhelming. But I do think there's a legitimate, serious investigation into corruption here.
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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #3197 on: March 17, 2018, 02:04:30 PM »
Paul Jay from The Real News Network:



Quotes:

Quote
We should be talking about, everything we talk about, should start with the issue of climate change, and then let's look at the other issues. Of course, in the United States, in the world, but certainly in the US, we are dealing with a far more important problem than the end of human society as we know it, and that's the alleged Russian meddling in the election. And of course that is a far more important issue. Because even if there's no humans, at least we won't have Russians meddling in nonexistent elections.

It's ridiculous what's going on in the American media, it's ridiculous what's going on in US politics. Everyone is simply using this issue to push various agendas. And the media loves it because it's a nice soap opera. You know, foreign threat, all the power of the Cold War comes back again, the shadows, darkness, a McCarthyite kind of mentality.

I've been saying on The Real News, I'll say it again, if everything the Russians are accused of doing in the US turns out to be true, so far it's allegations without a heck of a lot of objective evidence in the public domain, we're being asked to have faith in the American intelligence agencies, and thus believe the Russians did all these things. It may turn out to be true, I don't know, but it seems to be a very healthy starting point, for people and for the media, is don't have any faith in the American intelligence agencies. After the Iraq war and all the ridiculous propaganda for decades after decades during the Cold War, there is no reason to take American intelligence on faith. So if you look at what's actually objective, and not trusting the American intelligence agencies, there is a little bit of smoke. I don't think there's that much fire yet. But it almost doesn't matter. Because if it's all true, if the Russians were behind the hack of the DNC and then gave it to WikiLeaks, they had these troll farms swing some votes in the election, create disorder or whatever, it is nothing in terms of a threat to American democracy, it is nothing compared to what the American oligarchy does to American democracy. It's not the Russians who gerrymander and create districts, congressional districts, elected representatives can stay there for decades. It's the American oligarchy that is involved in voter suppression and repression in much of the South and, frankly, much across the country.

It's the Supreme Court of the United States that has allowed unlimited funding by billionaires that has changed, not that the billionaire money wasn't already determining the results of elections but it's qualitatively more now, where an individual billionaire like Robert Mercer can get a President Trump elected, or Sheldon Adelson.

So the issue of the climate crisis should be the front and center burning thing that everyone's talking about, and then look at all the other issues, because the truth when one looks into the issue of the climate crisis and the economic crisis, because were in another stock market bubble here, driven by cheap money, some real growth, but the market itself is a bubble. All the real solutions the economic problems and much of the issue of social inequality, it all ties right back to the climate crisis, because a sustainable green economy is the way out of all this.

Of course, we're not talking about any of this in mainstream media or mainstream politics.

Quote
So while right now the predominant section of the national security state that wants to keep ratcheting up tensions with Russia, I can't understand any other reason, frankly, other than it justifies a massive buildup of military expenditure. The kind of weapons you need to take on Russia are just so much larger and more expensive than even taking on Iran. So there's a lot invested, there's decades and decades in this anti-Russian narrative. And they don't want to give up on it.

Very important quote on how everything's connected:

Quote
But to get back to your central question, there is no contradiction between focusing on climate and focusing on geopolitics or focusing on economic crisis. It all comes down to the same issue: who has power, who owns stuff, and are the people, ordinary people, going to rise up in these conditions in a conscious way and take power away from these oligarchs, both American oligarchs, Russian oligarchs, Chinese oligarchs, and you can go on down the list, are the people going to take power? Because were going into a situation, starting with climate, add to that nuclear, add to that potential war, an economy that's, to a large extent, while there some growth right now there is still an underlying smoke and mirrors because so much of this growth is fueled by free money that people are simply borrowing at such low interest rates. All kinds of issues converging to put us, perhaps, the most dangerous time in human history.

They're all the same problem. It's not oh, should we focus on climate, or focus on that? Now, we who get this, or think we get the big picture here, our problem's not a theoretical problem about how do we explain these things, or even, you know, focusing. Our problem is how do we get ordinary people engaged to fight for their own interests. In terms of the media, how do we create a media that can confront the influence of corporate media that in the United States has half the country, or more than half, perhaps, supporting a kind of fascism? And this isn't just Trumpism. A large part of the country votes for very right wing Democrats. Center, center-right Democrats, who may be a modicum better than the outright fascist Republicans.

All of it is well worth watching or reading (faster). Paul Jay has, in my opinion, a real good grasp of the overview that is needed to view and frame individual elements in the bigger story. Somehow, I have a feeling that he may have cancer or something, because I haven't been seeing him much on TRNN lately (he's an excellent interviewer). I hope this isn't true. There aren't many people like Paul Jay around, and they're sorely needed as an example to and instructor of younger generations.
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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #3198 on: March 17, 2018, 04:14:08 PM »
Team Trump declares war on Team Mueller:

Title: "After McCabe firing, Trump's lawyer turns focus to Rosenstein"

https://www.axios.com/after-mccabe-firing-trumps-lawyer-turns-focus-to-rosenstein-48ea8c48-82f5-4100-9d0e-42ae8707aae4.html?source=sidebar

Extract: "President Trump's personal attorney, John Dowd, told The Daily Beast's Betsy Woodruff on Saturday that Deputy Attorney General Rod Rosenstein needs to shut down the Russia probe. This came in response to a request for comment on the firing of former FBI Director Andrew McCabe.

Why this matters, from Jonathan Swan: Trump’s team is going to war with Mueller. This quote amounts to a declaration of war, coming from a legal team that has always told Trump to be deferential to and compliant with Mueller. Folks like Steve Bannon from the start argued they should play hardball with Mueller and “fight for every document, fight them every step” of the way. Bannon told them it was insanity to expedite the process and comply fully."

Edit: First comes Sessions, then comes Rosenstein.
« Last Edit: March 17, 2018, 04:30:24 PM by AbruptSLR »
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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #3199 on: March 17, 2018, 04:43:10 PM »


And yes, motives are important. The argument that Russia wants to send out a signal to other defectors or wannabe double spies, has some merit, but Skirpal has been in the UK since 2010, so why now? 

The putative motives for Putin to order such a "signed" assassination are quite clear.  First, he's made clear that he views such men as traitors, and promised such traitors will pay for their treason.  Putin wouldn't issue such a decree without demonstrating he's serious, so he has to carry out assassinations that would-be traitors can understand as being Putin's justice.  Nerve gas and polonium do this.

Why not just execute the guy while he was already in Russian prison?  He had, at that point, value to trade, which happened.  And Putin could have calculated that assassination after the guy gets sanctuary would have a *stronger* deterrent effect than mere execution in prison.

Why now, instead of a few years ago?  Because Putin, right now, has a compelling need to make sure there are no more leaks.  Steele likely attained information for the dossier from his Russian intelligence contacts.  Regardless of Steele, there have been a number of recent arrests and at least one execution of FSB agents in recent months.  Putin understands that his security apparatus has recently been a leaking sieve.  Time now to instill strict discipline.

Quote
As A-Team has explained, it isn't that difficult to make Novichok, and like I've just said, Russia is a corrupt country, so it should be obtainable. If someone wanted to frame Russia, it would make sense to use Novichok. 

I have great respect for A-Team's expertise in this realm.  I don't doubt his words that a bright grad student could make Novichok.  But really, who in their right mind is going to manufacture a weapon of mass destruction (with risk of life in prison), not to mention the risk of getting the process wrong and dying?  Just to kill an old guy and frame Russia?  Only a state-level actor.

No, an oligarch in Russia wouldn't dare create an international incident without Putin's approval--that could easily be another kind of death sentence.

The CIA, doing so to frame Russia?  Not even a Trump appointee would be so stupid.  And it would have the effect of drying up all forms of intelligence from Russia. 

An anti-Russian Ukrainian plot, to frame Russia?  Barely plausible.  They, too, would suffer a drying up of intelligence sources.  And the risk of the plot becoming discovered would imply the current state there being utterly abandoned by the West, with Russian tanks ready then to roll into Kiev.  Far too much risk, for very speculative benefit.  They're smarter than Trump's administration, not dumber.

Quote
It's also possible that part of the military-industrial complex wants to promote a New Cold War because it ensures high military budgets, and a scared population that will gladly give up its freedom in exchange for the illusion of security. It could come from the US MIC, or the Russian MIC, or both. It should be relatively easy to procure or produce Novichok for such powerful entities. It would also be relatively simple to amplify the narrative via media channels and organisations like the Atlantic Council.
 

So a defense contractor?  Wrong MO.  The agent used is difficult to detect.  They'd risk personal ruin and life in prison for an act that might have easily been written off as a mere heart attack.  Too much risk for speculative benefit  No, they'd plant a bomb with components traceable to Russia, or sabotage Western armaments to look like Russian actions.  Then we need a beefed-up armaments here.  And they'd make it happen so that nobody dies, so no CEO has to risk prison.

No, Putin's the only one with motive, opportunity, and a good risk/benefit ratio.