The Russiagate conspiracy theory

[sidd]

"So it likely did NOT come from an old feedstock."

Fresh A-234  argues against their survival.

There are a bunch things that bother me with the western media narrative that an Russia painted his doornob with A-234.

1) motive: skirpal was let go by russia. Why go after him now ? Let's stipulate for the moment he recently did something like collaborate with steele that got russia mad again.

2) Russia knows all about A-234, lethality,administration, breakdown, all of it. . Even the mob in Russia knows enuf about A-234, to the exent of using it to kill somebody after buying it off a guy in a garage. So how come Russia can't pull off a hit that the mob could, given they have resources dwarfing the local mafia ?

3) But why use A-234 at all. You mad at the guy, hit him with a truck or throw him off a balcony or shoot him. Why use a complicated and indiscriminate method like painting his doorknob with nerve agent ? Someone walks up to the door to put a flyer on it, or knocks, yells, is told to enter ... i do that all the time at my friend's places. Especially in a place like Salisbury which is chock fulla spooks. They couldn't have hoped that the poison would be undetected, not in a place like that with Skirpal's history. So the western media narrative continues with the propositon that Russia was sending a message.

4) OK, message to whom ? Are there bunches of ex spies waiting to hurt mother russia who would be intimidated ?

Sorry, too many conjectures for me to buy this.


sidd

[SteveMDFP]

"So it likely did NOT come from an old feedstock."

Fresh A-234  argues against their survival.

There are a bunch things that bother me with the western media narrative that an Russia painted his doornob with A-234.

1) motive: skirpal was let go by russia. Why go after him now ? Let's stipulate for the moment he recently did something like collaborate with steele that got russia mad again.

2) Russia knows all about A-234, lethality,administration, breakdown, all of it. . Even the mob in Russia knows enuf about A-234, to the exent of using it to kill somebody after buying it off a guy in a garage. So how come Russia can't pull off a hit that the mob could, given they have resources dwarfing the local mafia ?

3) But why use A-234 at all. You mad at the guy, hit him with a truck or throw him off a balcony or shoot him. Why use a complicated and indiscriminate method like painting his doorknob with nerve agent ? Someone walks up to the door to put a flyer on it, or knocks, yells, is told to enter ... i do that all the time at my friend's places. Especially in a place like Salisbury which is chock fulla spooks. They couldn't have hoped that the poison would be undetected, not in a place like that with Skirpal's history. So the western media narrative continues with the propositon that Russia was sending a message.

4) OK, message to whom ? Are there bunches of ex spies waiting to hurt mother russia who would be intimidated ?

Sorry, too many conjectures for me to buy this.


sidd

I've supplied my interpretation to address all these questions.  Instead of a discussion, you're just repeating the questions.

Steve

Edit:  To make a conversation easier, here's some of what I said about motive and method:
https://forum.arctic-sea-ice.net/index.php/topic,1974.msg150104.html#msg150104

To repeat from other posts, it's not likely that anyone other than Skripal, his daughter, or a buglar would grab the exterior door handle.  He's an ex-spy, you think he keeps his door unlocked?  That he's casual about neighbors popping in?

Why did it fail?  The highest priority for the organization would be having the actual assassin return home before anyone might notice something amiss.  Booby-traps are much less reliable.
I imagine they expected Skripal to grab the handle on the way in and die in bed.  Instead, he collapsed in a public place and got prompt medical attention. 

It may not have occurred to the assassins that survival would be likely if one is put on a ventilator until the toxin clears.  It's not like this would have been tested out on humans (or likely even animals) beforehand.

The point in knocking off Skripal wouldn't be to intimidate ex-spies, those have already flown the coop.  The point is to deter current spies from being informants.

"Men are not hanged for stealing horses, but that horses may not be stolen" – George Savile

It's all just from the playbook for national security of both sides.  It's the business model.

Steve

[AbruptSLR]

The DNC strikes back with a civil lawsuit against the RNC, Wikileaks and Russia (Russia, Russia):

Title: "DNC Sues Trump Campaign, WikiLeaks, Russia Over Election Interference"

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2018-04-20/trump-campaign-russia-sued-by-dnc-over-election-interference

Extract: "The Democratic National Committee sued Russia, the Trump campaign and WikiLeaks claiming widespread interference in the 2016 election as part of a "brazen attack on American democracy.

The civil lawsuit could force President Donald Trump’s 2016 staffers to answer questions under oath about campaign activities. Evidence gathered by the DNC could be made public in court filings and at a trial -- in contrast to information obtained through Special Counsel Robert Mueller’s probe of Russian interference, which might not be publicly disclosed."

[Martin Gisser]

2) Russia knows all about A-234, lethality,administration, breakdown, all of it. . Even the mob in Russia knows enuf about A-234, to the exent of using it to kill somebody after buying it off a guy in a garage. So how come Russia can't pull off a hit that the mob could, given they have resources dwarfing the local mafia ?

Where do you get that from? Quite a theory...

BTW, you "sceptics" conveniently forget about the poisoning of Alexander Litvinenko...

[Rob Dekker]

"So it likely did NOT come from an old feedstock."

Fresh A-234  argues against their survival.

Sure, but you would have to discard both UK and OPCW evidence that this was “almost complete absence” of impurities to get to the "degraded" novichok theory.
And a low dose would explain non-lethality without having to discard UK and OPCW evidence.

Russia was being nice : they did not want to kill half of Salesbury, since that would be a sure declaration of war.

There are a bunch things that bother me with the western media narrative that an Russia painted his doornob with A-234.

1) motive: skirpal was let go by russia. Why go after him now ? Let's stipulate for the moment he recently did something like collaborate with steele that got russia mad again.

Steve gave a good overview of motives.
Either way, answering the 'why' question is always subject to speculation.
We can't prove any answer to the 'why' question empirically. Ever.

2) Russia knows all about A-234, lethality,administration, breakdown, all of it. . Even the mob in Russia knows enuf about A-234, to the exent of using it to kill somebody after buying it off a guy in a garage. So how come Russia can't pull off a hit that the mob could, given they have resources dwarfing the local mafia ?

Let it be clear if the motive was to intimidate potential 'traitors', that it's not necessary to kill Skripal and his daughter. Just scaring the heck out of potential traitors is enough.

3) But why use A-234 at all. You mad at the guy, hit him with a truck or throw him off a balcony or shoot him. Why use a complicated and indiscriminate method like painting his doorknob with nerve agent ?

They did not need to kill the Skripals to send the message : Traitors have no safe haven.

Also, if you would simply kill a guy, none of the target audience would know it was Russia who did it. For example this guy Glushkov who was killed within a week of the Skripal attack :
https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2018/mar/13/russian-exile-nikolai-glushkov-found-dead-at-his-london-home

Did Russia do that ? Or not ?
We don't know, so it is not sending the same signal as the Skripal attack.

4) OK, message to whom ? Are there bunches of ex spies waiting to hurt mother russia who would be intimidated ?

Yes. And not just 'ex' spies.

Besides, it's also a slap in the face of MI6, that Russian agents can do this kind of things on UK soil without getting caught.

Sorry, too many conjectures for me to buy this.

Regardless of your opinion, the target audience got the message. Loud and clear.

[Rob Dekker]

Even though many journalists were allowed into Douma, OPCW is still not allowed to enter the suburb and investigate the alleged chemical attack :

https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2018/04/chemical-weapons-watchdog-opcw-denied-access-douma-180420114921148.html

It's been almost a week now....

[AbruptSLR]

The DNC strikes back with a civil lawsuit against the RNC, Wikileaks and Russia (Russia, Russia):

Title: "DNC Sues Trump Campaign, WikiLeaks, Russia Over Election Interference"

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2018-04-20/trump-campaign-russia-sued-by-dnc-over-election-interference

Extract: "The Democratic National Committee sued Russia, the Trump campaign and WikiLeaks claiming widespread interference in the 2016 election as part of a "brazen attack on American democracy.

The civil lawsuit could force President Donald Trump’s 2016 staffers to answer questions under oath about campaign activities. Evidence gathered by the DNC could be made public in court filings and at a trial -- in contrast to information obtained through Special Counsel Robert Mueller’s probe of Russian interference, which might not be publicly disclosed."

Stop and think how the discovery process in the DNC civil lawsuit can help expose dirt on the Trump campaign that could help Mueller to file appropriate criminal charges (much like Stormy Daniels' civil lawsuit helped the FBI get a search warrant to seize Michael Cohen's electronic records).

[Zeug Gezeugt]

Regardless of your opinion, the target audience got the message. Loud and clear.

Bingo!

This is all information management also called propaganda warfare to go alongside the economic and proxy warfare that's being waged against a resurgent Russian great power. Hopefully the yanks don't push it all the way to MAD, but that of course is the very last raise before the final showdown.

Re Skripal cui bono my money is the Brits did it as a run up to the chemical weapons false flag in Douma with the international war crime follow up by FUKUS. The criminality is so incredibly blatant nowadays they can't even bother putting a decent cover story together.

Was also a win-win for the disaster clown act that is the current Tory govt and they get to shout Corbyn down again while not talking about Brexit. At least in the  short term until another Downing St memo surfaces and everyone remembers the Blair Bush act that murdered a million Iraqis.

[sidd]

"my money is the Brits did it "

I think the russian mob tried to pull off another one and screwed up. But as always, i could be wrong.

Cui bono is a good way to look at it. the warmongers made hay for sure, but did they actually do this or capitalize on something that happened anyway. Sorta like PNAC jumping on 2001 attacks, in a smaller way.

sidd

[Zeug Gezeugt]

I think the russian mob tried to pull off another one and screwed up. But as always, i could be wrong.

I missed the mafia connection... what is it? I've heard nothing to implicate them but lots that point the other way such as retired MI6 asset Skripal has about 2 degrees of separation from ex-MI6 agent Steele's DNC/Clinton funded Trump dossier. Has that snippet been discussed thoroughly dismissed here? And are you ever 'ex' MI6?

But cool whatever, I'll give you 10 to 1 on a $100 bet. Anyone going for the 'evil mastermind Pootin did it for no readily apparent reason' can have 100 to 1! Who's in? USD of course and payable in Bitcoin.

[Rob Dekker]

Anyone going for the 'evil mastermind Pootin did it for no readily apparent reason' can have 100 to 1! Who's in? USD of course and payable in Bitcoin.

I'll take that bet, and I'll put up $10.
That means if Putin ordered this (the Skripal poisoning) that you owe me $1000.
Bitcoin or otherwise, Neven be the arbiter.

[Zeug Gezeugt]

I'll take that bet, and I'll put up $10.
That means if Putin ordered this (the Skripal poisoning) that you owe me $1000.
Bitcoin or otherwise, Neven be the arbiter.

Sorry Rob am only taking $100 USD bets, you still in?

[SteveMDFP]

The chemical attack in Douma a false flag?  Improbable interpretation from the beginning, now looking even more ludicrous.  Assad and company are acting guilty:

Chemical weapons coverup suspected in Syria as inspectors remain blocked
https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/chemical-weapons-coverup-suspected-in-syria-as-inspectors-remain-blocked/2018/04/20/1ca0f164-440a-11e8-b2dc-b0a403e4720a_story.html?noredirect=on&utm_term=.ac807923fad8

"BEIRUT — In the two weeks since the Syrian city of Douma was struck by a suspected chemical weapons attack, the area has had many visitors.

First, it was Russian military police, fanning out across the area after five years of rebel control. Next came the Syrian army, and then journalists traipsed through, examining the alleged blast sites and interviewing survivors.

But one thing was missing: the weapons inspectors who arrived in Syria last week to establish what really happened in Douma.

Six days later, they are still demanding full and secure access to the site, a delay that has sharpened suspicions among local residents and Western governments that Syrian and Russian authorities are using each day that passes for a coverup.

People present in Douma said Syrian and Russian military officials have blocked off and repeatedly entered the sites and medical facilities that the international Organization for the Prohibition of Chemical Weapons (OPCW) is expected to comb for evidence.

On Thursday, the United States said it had credible information to suggest that Syria and Russia were working to delay the OPCW mission to Douma as their forces removed evidence that a chemical attack had taken place.
. . .
Witnesses described a smell of chlorine in the air, and video footage from the site of the deadliest strike showed men, women and children who appeared to have died foaming at the mouth, a symptom that could indicate exposure to a nerve agent.

Assad’s government denies using chemical weapons, and Russia has offered competing explanations for the chaotic scenes of April 7, first denying that an attack took place, then saying it had been staged by rebels."

[SteveMDFP]

And the Skripal attempted assassination "false-flag" is also shaping up not to be a false flag attack as well:

Police identify key suspects in nerve agent attack on Sergei Skripal
http://subscriber.telegraph.co.uk/news/2018/04/20/police-identify-key-suspects-nerve-agent-attack-sergei-skripal/
"Police and intelligence agencies have identified key suspects in the attempted assassination of Sergei Skripal and his daughter Yulia, The Telegraph understands.

Counter-terrorism police are now trying to build a case against “persons of interest”, who are believed to be back in Russia.

The Telegraph has been told that the criminal inquiry, expected to take many more months, is understood to have made a major breakthrough in identifying key people over the nerve agent attack.

It is thought that a search of flight manifests in and out of the UK has yielded specific names in the hunt for the Skripals’ would-be assassins. Police have also drawn on extensive CCTV footage in Salisbury and have also trawled car number plate recognition cameras.

But counter-terror police will hit a diplomatic brick wall in trying to interview - let alone prosecute - the suspects. . ."

[Zeug Gezeugt]

And the Skripal attempted assassination "false-flag" is also shaping up not to be a false flag attack as well

Excellent. So I can put you down for $100 at 100 to 1 for the cartoon caricature  'evil mastermind Pootin did it for no readily apparent reason'?

Also, do you have any critical insights into your cut and pastes beyond 'Skripal not a false flag' because ... UK Tele reports Russians not to be interviewed cos they're in Russia? Is that the gist?

And Syrian opposition false flag 'self evidently ludicrous' because ... US WP re-reports chlorine reports... and the OPCW delayed by ... whom again?

That both these corporate media's government and military were involved in the recent technically illegal aggression against Syria based on the CW Douma 'not a false flag' narrative would just be innocent coincidence?

At the very least, whether you think they're reporting the truth of the matter or not, these are officially sanctioned media narratives coming from what are now military opponents of the Syrian government. Which means that in purely technical terms these reports are now literally war propaganda. Which you're free to believe in totally of course as that's their function.

But are any of these nuances part of your non-ludicrous understanding of the whole ludicrous imbroglio?

Or do you work solely on innuendo nowadays?

[SteveMDFP]

And the Skripal attempted assassination "false-flag" is also shaping up not to be a false flag attack as well

Excellent. So I can put you down for $100 at 100 to 1 for the cartoon caricature  'evil mastermind Pootin did it for no readily apparent reason'?

Also, do you have any critical insights into your cut and pastes beyond 'Skripal not a false flag' because ... UK Tele reports Russians not to be interviewed cos they're in Russia? Is that the gist?

And Syrian opposition false flag 'self evidently ludicrous' because ... US WP re-reports chlorine reports... and the OPCW delayed by ... whom again?

That both these corporate media's government and military were involved in the recent technically illegal aggression against Syria based on the CW Douma 'not a false flag' narrative would just be innocent coincidence?

At the very least, whether you think they're reporting the truth of the matter or not, these are officially sanctioned media narratives coming from what are now military opponents of the Syrian government. Which means that in purely technical terms these reports are now literally war propaganda. Which you're free to believe in totally of course as that's their function.

But are any of these nuances part of your non-ludicrous understanding of the whole ludicrous imbroglio?

Or do you work solely on innuendo nowadays?

I would take the bet, except I suspect no amount of evidence would ever convince you that you'd lost.  Just like those people who say that the moon landing never happened, or that the Newtown massacre was a hoax.

There were compelling interests in both of these incidents for Russia/Syria to act exactly as they're accused of doing.  I've described those interests already. 

No, a substantial amount of the relevant reporting on both incidents has been independent.  You won't find that independent reporting on RT or consortiumnews or sputniknews.

[sidd]

"the mafia connection... what is it? "

https://original.antiwar.com/porter/2018/04/18/an-alternative-explanation-to-the-skripal-mystery/

sidd

[SteveMDFP]

"the mafia connection... what is it? "

https://original.antiwar.com/porter/2018/04/18/an-alternative-explanation-to-the-skripal-mystery/

sidd

There's nothing there that we haven't covered here already, and better.  The central thesis of the article seems to postulate that 1994 vintage Novichok was perhaps used by organized crime.  The article itself explains that Novichok agents of that age wouldn't be found in high-purity today.

It does parrot Lavrov's claim that Novichok was patented in the US in 2015.  Lavrov's statement isn't detailed, but Tass seems to give further information on this patent:
http://tass.com/politics/1000583

It's an obfuscation, a lie.  Digging into details, that  patent was for a *bullet* designed to be suitable for delivery of nerve agents of any type, potentially including Novichok.  Irrelevant to this matter.

Elsewhere on the internet, one can find a claim that the specific patent was US9132135B2.  Of course, this wasn't a patent for Novichok at all, but a method of treating oganophosphate poisoning.  More obfuscation.

Why issue false statements about BZ and US patents unless one is trying to hide the truth?

[zizek]

All this impurities chat has got me very confused.  Can someone with a chemistry background tell me if there's a difference between impurities and degradation with respect to the samples?
I initially thought the lack of impurities just meant that it was synthesized in a high tech lab. OPCW never mentions anything about degradation or when it was manufactured. Am I missing something?

[Zeug Gezeugt]

There were compelling interests in both of these incidents for Russia/Syria to act exactly as they're accused of doing.  I've described those interests already. 

But that's the problem Steve, there's nothing 'compelling' about these notions of gangsta Putin 'sending a message' the week before his election and in the run up to the world cup. It's a weird cartoon caricature 'conspiracy theory' that many of us find totally ludicrous as opposed to the already established fact that the Brits will barefaced lie about WMD as an excuse for military provocation.

Same with the yanks and your 'compelling' notion that the Assad government and military are insanely suicidal rather than the completely obvious fact that the opposition was told multiple times that if there's a CW attack the US will bomb the SAA no questions asked ... a green light and huge incentive for the failing opposition militias to provide just such a propaganda excuse for illegal military intervention on their behalf.

Just like those people who say that the moon landing never happened, or that the Newtown massacre was a hoax.

This is another propaganda meme where any dissent from the official narrative is 'conspiracy theory'. No matter if the official UK narrative is an absurd conspiracy theory involving Russian secret agents murdering retired Russian MI6 assets using Soviet era Novichok CW for no other reason than that Putin needs to big himself up because ... he's like a gangsta y'know?

But any suggestion that it could be any state actor with a CW programme which is every modern state on the planet, and that it could very well be the British themselves is according to you ... akin to believing the US moon landings were faked.

Now I gotta give it to you Steve, that's some real 'compelling' critical thinking there!

Either that or you're either naive or disingenuous enough to regurgitate a base 'conspiracy' propaganda meme against dissenting views no matter how absurd your logic.

I prefer to think you're just naive.

No, a substantial amount of the relevant reporting on both incidents has been independent.  You won't find that independent reporting on RT or consortiumnews or sputniknews.

And this is just the icing on the naivete cake. US UK corporate media is 'independent' and their opponents' media is not ... because they and you say so and will no doubt keep repeating it.

Again, this is how propaganda in the technical rather than pejorative sense works. Your narrative is the 'truth' and your opponents is a 'lie', and you repeat this no matter the facts of the matter. But as Goebbels said, the best propaganda is the truth because the lie is inherently weak.

And we know the US UK corporate media will absolutely print abject lies when it comes to their government's justifications for technically illegal 'humanitarian' warfare, no matter how absurd those lies are. You just keep repeating them because it's not a matter of winning an argument but rather keeping the memes churning over in the headlines so that the hoi polloi absorb the message.

The current message is rather disturbing though. It keeps repeating over and over the last few years.

Apparently sooner or later we are going to war with Eurasia so the American Caesar can rule us and the planet forever.

[Rob Dekker]

Today, OPCW was finally allowed to visit at least one site in Douma and take samples :

http://www.france24.com/en/20180421-samples-taken-site-suspected-chemical-attack-douma-opcw-syria?ref=fb

It's not clear which site exactly they visited, and if it was the site that Bellingcat identified, with the cylinder on the roof, where 34 bodies were found.

Also, it's been two weeks since the attack, and Syria/Russia had plenty of time to clean up the sites.
So it remains to be seen if they find anything left over.

[SteveMDFP]

Many who disbelieve the dominant narratives about Syria and the Skripals cite the recent history of the run-up to the Iraq war and Saddam's purported "weapons of mass destruction."  This is understandable, the West's security services were shamefully manipulated and misused to justify a war to control oil.  Why wouldn't it happen again?  How are these two episodes *not* another example?

We can be confident that the same playbook is not being re-used here.  People paying close attention to the narratives used by Bush Jr and Co were quickly able to cite hard evidence of lies being proffered by the administration.  We're not seeing any corresponding hard evidence in these two episodes.

Actual conspiracies usually leak.  Sometimes not until time has passed.  But the more individuals and agencies involved in an actual conspiracy, the faster it falls apart.  This is especially true in the modern age, where emails are permanent, calls are electronically logged, CCTV is everywhere, everything gets some kind of documentation.  Dedicated covert agencies can often manage this on small-scale operations, but even then, the larger the number of individuals, the faster they get exposed.

When Bush/Cheney pushed for war, most of their justifications were quickly found to be transparently false.  The yellowcake was just a forged paper.  The "high-strength aluminum tubes" were not for uranium centrifuges, they were for allowed rockets.  At least one bio weapons lab cited was not even in territory controlled by Saddam.

Highly credible, named sources explained how Cheney's minions combed through intelligence services to find individual analysts who would endorse paranoid interpretations of data.  Note that highly senior agency leaders did *not* endorse the narrative.  Yes, Colin Powell put lies up in front of the UN.  But he was running State, not an intelligence service.  He delivered what had been put in front of him by people who didn't work for him.

It was all horribly costly.  Many died.  The world is still suffering awful consequences.  We should, indeed, be vigilant to make sure there is no repetition.

But senior civil servants in the security agencies are as aware of this as anyone.  They know well how being manipulated badly hurt their agencies, their collective reputations, and the country they've worked to secure. 

If some multi-agency, multi-party conspiracy in the West cooked up a way to kill the Skripals, it's not credible that someone in that network wouldn't step up as a whistle blower, with hard evidence in hand. 

And really, what UK career civil servant is going to *personally* authorize murder of a British citizen on British soil with a nerve agent?  And bet his personal life that nobody else in the know is going to breathe a word, ever?  Nobody so reckless ever gets to the top of the ladder in the civil service.  They get there by making sure their own actions are legit and authorized from above.

We can be reasonably sure that the non-political leadership of OPCW, MI5, MI6, etc, really are playing by the book.

On the other hand, operations such as this have been carried out covertly by opposition governments quite often, with a very small number of people in the know.  That's how they happen.

[zizek]

Are you seriously suggesting that the Western Security Apparatus is an innocent bystander of western imperialism?
That is one hell of a take

[SteveMDFP]

Are you seriously suggesting that the Western Security Apparatus is an innocent bystander of western imperialism?
That is one hell of a take

Innocent bystander?  No.  Many stood by passively when Bush Jr manipulated intelligence. 
My point is that when that ruse was being proferred, there were a notable number of highly credible voices pointing out the lies (edit:  like Valerie Plame and her husband).  We're not seeing that with Skipal and Douma.  See:
How the Bush administration sold the war – and we bought it
https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2013/feb/27/bush-administration-sold-iraq-war

I think a critical error in this discussion is viewing the MIC as a decision-making entity.  It's not.  Individual people make individual decisions with personal motivations that are understandable and predictable.  Greed, laziness, desire for power, ideological blinders or inspiration.  Every individual is a little different.  No organization or conspiracy operates as a unified, synchronous body. 

If MI6 tried to murder the Skripals, some specific individual (quite a few individuals) took on the personal risk of destroying his own life without compelling reason.  That's not credible.

Putin could order this without fear of significant personal consequences.  That really isn't the case with any other visible individual.

[zizek]

Please point to me the point in history when the alphabet soup organizations went from active perpetrators to neutral civil servants.

The coup was organized by the United States' CIA and the United Kingdom's MI6, two spy agencies that aided royalists and royalist elements of the Iranian army.[82] Much of the money was channeled through the pro-Shah Ayatollah Mohammad Behbahani, who drew many religious masses to the plot. Ayatollah Kashani had completely turned on Mossadegh and supported the Shah, by this point.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1953_Iranian_coup_d%27%C3%A9tat

MI6 also assisted the Malayan government to transfer arms and other military supplies secretly to South Vietnam.

https://elliot-murphy.com/2015/03/14/unhistory-britains-forgotten-indochina-connection/

Mr Russell became concerned that the re-equipment of the Argentine navy was going too well and that in its quest for information MI6 was defying parliament, becoming "an agency out of control".

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/mi6-supplied-parts-to-argentine-navy-1358744.html

Britain acted deceitfully in Libya and David Cameron authorised an MI6 plan to "break up" the country, a close confidante of Hillary Clinton claimed in a series of secret reports sent to the then-secretary of state.

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/hillary-clinton/11616018/Britain-hid-secret-MI6-plan-to-break-up-Libya-from-US-Hillary-Clinton-told-by-confidante.html

Britain’s MI6 and special forces have played a crucial and sustained role in covert US-led counter terrorism operations in Yemen. Their role has included identifying targets for drone strikes, according to a detailed, in-depth, investigation.

https://www.theguardian.com/news/defence-and-security-blog/2016/apr/11/uk-special-forces-and-mi6-involved-in-yemen-bombing-report-reveals


I'd do the same for America, but I think you get the point

[SteveMDFP]

I'd do the same for America, but I think you get the point

Well, yes, covert agencies engage in shady activities, under the direct orders of (typically) politically-appointed heads.  My point, however is well-demonstrated in that story about MI6 supplying the Argentine navy.  The totally standard interest in placing an agent within the Argentine military structure was in conflict with the law against supplying that military.  In broad strokes, that's a security service judgment call.  Still, the agent in question blew the whistle.

These agencies don't operate as unified, synchronized bodies.  The individuals involved have their individual perspectives:
"Mr Russell became concerned that the re-equipment of the Argentine navy was going too well and that in its quest for information MI6 was defying parliament, becoming "an agency out of control".

I suspect he was protecting his own hide by blowing the whistle.  That happens in conspiracies.  Where are the indsider whistleblowers in the Skripal and Douma events?  Nobody wants to save their own hides?

[sidd]

Some history on nerve agents, including the titbit that NBS (now NIST) published an entry for A-234 in a spectral  database, which was later deleted.

http://syriapropagandamedia.org/working-papers/update-to-briefing-note-doubts-about-novichoks

sidd

[zizek]

I'd do the same for America, but I think you get the point

Well, yes, covert agencies engage in shady activities, under the direct orders of (typically) politically-appointed heads.  My point, however is well-demonstrated in that story about MI6 supplying the Argentine navy.  The totally standard interest in placing an agent within the Argentine military structure was in conflict with the law against supplying that military.  In broad strokes, that's a security service judgment call.  Still, the agent in question blew the whistle.

These agencies don't operate as unified, synchronized bodies.  The individuals involved have their individual perspectives:
"Mr Russell became concerned that the re-equipment of the Argentine navy was going too well and that in its quest for information MI6 was defying parliament, becoming "an agency out of control".

I suspect he was protecting his own hide by blowing the whistle.  That happens in conspiracies.  Where are the indsider whistleblowers in the Skripal and Douma events?  Nobody wants to save their own hides?

The security apparatus is an agent of capital. They take orders and follow laws because it is convenient for them. Those laws and orders are constructed by politicians and lobbyist to expand capital. If they need to break laws or go "rogue"to protect capital, they will, and they have. It would be incredibly naive to think otherwise:

Former Directors of Central Intelligence (wiki)

John O. Brennan 2013-Current
Good record. Spent entire life entrenched in security

Porter J. Goss, 2004–2005
Previous House Republican
Registered lobbyist representing Turkey since 2015

George J. Tenet, 1996–2004
February 2008, he became a managing director at investment bank Allen & Company.

John M. Deutch, 1995–1996
Serves on the Board of Directors of Citigroup, Cummins, Raytheon, and Schlumberger Ltd. Deutch is also a member of the Trilateral Commission.

R. James Woolsey, 1993–1995
His career also included time as a professional lawyer, venture capitalist and investor in the private sector.

Robert M. Gates, 1991–1993
Gates has been a member of the board of trustees of Fidelity Investments, and on the board of directors of NACCO Industries, Inc., Brinker International, Inc., Parker Drilling Company, Science Applications International Corporation, and VoteHere, a technology company which sought to provide cryptography and computer software security for the electronic election industry

William H. Webster, 1987–1991
The Securities and Exchange Commission has opened an inquiry into former FBI and CIA director William H. Webster's role as head of the audit committee of a company being investigated for fraud by the Justice Department, SEC and industry sources said yesterday.

William J. Casey, 1981–1987
He was a co-founder of the Manhattan Institute in 1978.


And it goes on and on and on and on.

The security apparatus has an incredibly cozy relationship with capitalist institutions and agents. These are the people they take their orders from. It just happens, for the most part, that the politicians and laws are on the same side as them.

Ask yourself this: If Corbyn followed through with his promise to seize all energy assets, and requested MI6 to assist him. Do you honestly believe that they would cooperate?


You're belief that the security apparatus is a bunch of honest patriots scattered between pockets of corrupt chauvinist does not reflect reality.  The apparatus has been, and will always be, a tool to protect capital. And they will do that at all costs.

[zizek]

The only reason that mkultra, cointelpro, and all the other heinous shit the spooky suits were pulling is because some leftists broke into an FBI building and stole some files. Skripal is child's play compared to that stuff

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Citizens%27_Commission_to_Investigate_the_FBI

[Rob Dekker]

Some history on nerve agents, including the titbit that NBS (now NIST) published an entry for A-234 in a spectral  database, which was later deleted.

http://syriapropagandamedia.org/working-papers/update-to-briefing-note-doubts-about-novichoks

sidd

Sidd, your link refers to the following :

The image shows a faded printout of a record from NIST 98 for a chemical with formula C8H18FN2O2Pnamed as N-(O-ethyl-fluorophosphoryl)-N’-N’-diethyl-acetamidine, with NIST number 226889. As Rybalchenko notes, this molecular structure corresponds to A-234

I have a hard time finding this "image" of that "faded printout" from NIST 98.
Do you have a link to it ?
Or is this story all just made-up ?

[SteveMDFP]

Some history on nerve agents, including the titbit that NBS (now NIST) published an entry for A-234 in a spectral  database, which was later deleted.

http://syriapropagandamedia.org/working-papers/update-to-briefing-note-doubts-about-novichoks

sidd

Sidd, your link refers to the following :

The image shows a faded printout of a record from NIST 98 for a chemical with formula C8H18FN2O2Pnamed as N-(O-ethyl-fluorophosphoryl)-N’-N’-diethyl-acetamidine, with NIST number 226889. As Rybalchenko notes, this molecular structure corresponds to A-234

I have a hard time finding this "image" of that "faded printout" from NIST 98.
Do you have a link to it ?
Or is this story all just made-up ?

I'm not sure any of this makes any difference.  The chemical structure of A-234 is known (although two alternative structures are listed in Wikipedia, with explanation).
Signatories the the Chemical Weapons Convention are permitted to produce 10 kg/yr (of each agent?  All agents combined? Not sure).  This is to permit research.

Any advanced military power worth its salt is going to have produced most known agents, in small quantities, for research.  Exactly what agents have been produced, with what research findings, is surely classified.  So we can only know what's been stated publicly, none of the classified stuff.  I wouldn't trust a denial from any direction as being meaningful.

I'd personally be surprised if a vial of A-234 wasn't on an Army base within of few miles of me in Maryland.  Though I'd expect its production and use to be in compliance with the OPCW.

Regardless, I think Putin/FSB/GRU is the only credible suspect, for reasons I won't rehash.

[Rob Dekker]

Thanks Steve.

But what I was suspicious about was the claim by sidd and various pro-Russian web sites that :

NIST published an entry for A-234 in a spectral  database, which was later deleted.

I can't find any evidence for that entry, nor that it was later deleted.

[SteveMDFP]

Thanks Steve.

But what I was suspicious about was the claim by sidd and various pro-Russian web sites that :

NIST published an entry for A-234 in a spectral  database, which was later deleted.

I can't find any evidence for that entry, nor that it was later deleted.

I think it's probably true, and not at all surprising.  The NIST database of CG-MS profiles lists an agent with number 226889, about which no information seems to be publicly available, about 60% of the way down this page:
http://www.compoundsearch.com/index_16_46.html

It's not rare for scientific information to be published and then later deemed classified, and then removed from public records.  It's happened with formerly-public information from the old AEC about the Manhattan Project, for example.  John McPhee sounded an alarm about this public information and potential mis-use in "The Curve of Binding Energy."

It's later happened with the basic radar research on reflectivity of metal surfaces, used in making "stealth" aircraft.

You really wouldn't want a CG-MS profile for A-234 in the public record.  This information would be quite useful to a rogue agent who wanted to make the stuff, but also wanted to be sure the synthesis was successful.  This information would allow them to skip the laborious step of animal testing.  So, of course it would be removed from the public record.

Steve

[Rob Dekker]

A couple of days ago Neven asked if the victims from the April 7 Douma chemical attack had been identified.

I just came across the VDC (Violations Documentation Center) Syria database, here :

http://www.vdc-sy.info/index.php/en/martyrs/1/

This lists documented casualties in the Syrian civil war.

Fill in "Damascus suburbs" for the location, and April 7 for the date,
and check the "Chemical and toxic gases" mark for cause of death, and you get a list of 85 casualties that day, all in Douma.

Note that 49 are not yet identified, but 36 are, with full name.

That (identification) of course casts more doubt on the Russian/Syrian government account that 1) nothing happened, or 2) the bodies were moved in from elsewhere, or 3) these people were prisoners of the rebels, or whatever other 'alternative facts' this murderous regime cooks up.

Facts are stubborn things...

[sidd]

Follow the money.

http://vdc-sy.net/about/

Donors and Partners: (at least the ones they disclose)

open society foundations: Soros
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Open_Society_Foundations

Asfari foundations: expatriate syrian who owns oilfield service company in New Joisey. Pennsylvania boy, hi flyer. "In May 2017, Asfari and his wife donated £100,000 to the British Conservative Party election campaign, days before Asfari was scheduled to be interviewed by the Serious Fraud Office ..."
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ayman_Asfari

And an NGO called International Media Support.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/International_Media_Support

sidd

[sidd]

This is more like old school KGB, hit someone with a car. Except the guy driving was 70.

http://www.businessinsider.com/skripal-poisoning-novichok-scientist-vladimir-uglev-reportedly-hit-by-car-in-russia-2018-4

sidd

[Rob Dekker]

Follow the money.

http://vdc-sy.net/about/

Donors and Partners: (at least the ones they disclose)

open society foundations: Soros
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Open_Society_Foundations
etc etc

Well, of course, if Soros is in, then VDC must be part of the conspiracy to blame Assad for something he would never do this time (chemical attack on his own people) even though he did it dozens and dozens of times before.

Let's see, who is in this conspiracy theory so far ?
We have :
- The White Helmets,
- 500 locals,
- local medical staff,
- aircraft spotters,
- the WHO,
- CBS,
- Swedish channel 4,
and now
- VDC

Did I forget anyone ? How about the CIA and MI6 ? I'm sure they will feel left-out if your don't include them in your ever less likely conspiracy theory that the Douma chemical attack was a hoax or a false flag attack.

By the way, did you guys make your mind up which one it was : A hoax or false flag ?.

Can't be both at the same time.

[Rob Dekker]

A new study shows that number of attacks on hospitals and other medical facilities in Syria is astounding :

The data, which appears Tuesday in the journal PLOS Medicine, shows a total of 200 health care-related attacks in the governorates of Aleppo, Idleb, Homs and Hama. Haar and her team focused on these provinces because they include large, historically rebel-held cities — Idleb and Aleppo — that had already sustained a lot of violence.

Over 2016 that averages out to more than one attack every other day, says Haar. In the attacks her team analyzed, 112 health-care staff and 185 patients died.

https://www.npr.org/sections/goatsandsoda/2018/04/24/605264919/sheer-number-of-attacks-on-health-facilities-in-syria-shocks-researcher

and

Sirkin does not believe the health facilities are suffering collateral damage in general attacks. Because health facilities are often the largest buildings in rural areas of Syria and because hospitals have experienced repeated bombings, she believes they are being deliberately targeted — a violation of humanitarian law.

Haar agrees, noting that most hospitals in Syria no longer display the Red Cross or Red Crescent markings that brands them as medical facilities. "They've been removed because they're creating a giant target, literally," she says. Unfortunately, she says, the GPS coordinates of larger hospitals and clinics are already known, so they're still under threat.

Haar's data shows that 33 hospitals sustained more than one attack in 2016. Two hospitals in Aleppo city were attacked over 10 times. From such a barrage, Sirkin says, "you can infer complete intent to destroy access to health care for the the sick."

and

According to reports, the Syrian government and Russia, its ally, have denied targeting health facilities.

Why am I not surprised.

[Rob Dekker]

See here

https://www.bellingcat.com/news/mena/2016/02/17/russias-barely-coherent-defence-it-didnt-bomb-hospitals-in-syria/

how the Russian Ministry of Defense tries to weasel its way out of documented attacks on medical facilities (hospitals and clinics) in Syria. It is quite eye-opening.

[sidd]

Follow the money: Blumenthal on Al Quaeda's MASH unit:

"According to SAMS 2015 financial statement [PDF], the organization’s budget jumped from $672,987 in 2013 to nearly $6 million in 2015 — almost a tenfold increase. Over $5.8 million of that funding came from USAID, an arm of the US State Department that boasts its own Office of Transition Initiatives to encourage regime change in states targeted by the West. SAMS Executive Director David Lillie also happens to be a former USAID staffer, as is SAMS Director of Operations Tony Kronfli."

https://grayzoneproject.com/2018/04/12/al-qaedas-mash-unit-how-the-syrian-american-medical-society-is-selling-regime-change-and-driving-the-us-to-war/

sidd

[sidd]

The vast Assad-loving, neo-nazi, anti-semitic, Putin-supporting conspiracy-theorist conspiracy:

" ... how people like Michael Savage, Rania Khalek, Alex Jones, Breitbart’s entire UK office, Cenk Ugyur, Max Blumenthal, Caitlin Johnstone, Glenn Greenwald, The Nation‘s Stephen F. Cohen, Tucker Carlson, Vanessa Beeley (again), various British fascists, Jeremy Corbyn, and that modern-day Rasputin, Lyndon LaRouche, are all parts of the insidious Putin-Nazi plot  ..."

Strange bedfellows, indeed. And apparently these days "globalist" is a synonym for "Jew." Who knew?

https://www.counterpunch.org/2018/04/26/the-league-of-assad-loving-conspiracy-theorists/

sidd

[Rob Dekker]

The vast Assad-loving, neo-nazi, anti-semitic, Putin-supporting conspiracy-theorist conspiracy:

" ... how people like Michael Savage, Rania Khalek, Alex Jones, Breitbart’s entire UK office, Cenk Ugyur, Max Blumenthal, Caitlin Johnstone, Glenn Greenwald, The Nation‘s Stephen F. Cohen, Tucker Carlson, Vanessa Beeley (again), various British fascists, Jeremy Corbyn, and that modern-day Rasputin, Lyndon LaRouche, are all parts of the insidious Putin-Nazi plot  ..."

Strange bedfellows, indeed. And apparently these days "globalist" is a synonym for "Jew." Who knew?

Interesting, from this list, I didn't think that Cenk Ugyur belonged there. I respect the guy (and TYT in general) a lot, and didn't think he was on the 'extremist' side.
But from the origin of this list, which is this article in Haaretz :
https://www.haaretz.com/opinion/assad-s-war-crimes-bring-far-left-and-right-together-and-putin-smiles-1.6008713
lo and behold, we do have this tweet by Cenk Ugyur :
https://twitter.com/cenkuygur/status/983692239049179137
which reads :

Interesting agreement beginning to form between the left and the right online about skepticism on the Syria story. Meanwhile, the establishment press as usual believes the Pentagon without question or evidence. The push for escalation on TV is overwhelming. #WarDrums

which, yes, DOES suggest that there is indeed an agreement between the far left and the far right, just as I pointed out before : The political spectrum is a circle where extremes connect.

Where Cenk, and the rest of the people on that list go wrong is that there IS evidence that the Syrian regime dropped chemical weapons on Douma (most likely chlorine) and that it killed AT LEAST 34 civilians. It is OPEN SOURCE evidence, so ANYONE can verify it, and it is summarized quite nicely by Bellingcat, here :

https://www.bellingcat.com/news/mena/2018/04/11/open-source-survey-alleged-chemical-attacks-douma-7th-april-2018/

Until that presented open-source evidence is debunked, indeed everyone who denies that Assad bombed his own people is following a conspiracy theory which is increasingly unlikely the more evidence emerges.

[edit]
I found this interesting comment on Cenk's tweet :

Why do you feel compelled to defend Assad? I thought you were anti-war? Or only when it's the west?

I think this is spot-on, and a question all the anti-war people here should ask themselves.

[Rob Dekker]

Seriously guys.
There is only one man who can end this conflict and prevent further bloodshed.
And that is Assad.

He can end this conflict TODAY by stepping down and calling for UN-supervised elections open to all Syrians.

If you are anti-war, THAT is what you should be calling for, instead of denying the evidence of his latest atrocity.

[sidd]

Re: Assad step down will end syria conflict

All the Saudi/Quatar/USA financed head choppers and organ eaters will go home and everybody will live happily ever after. Just like Libya.

Right.

sidd

[sidd]

Claims and counterclaims: Russia produces a physician who states he was on duty and saw no attack victims. And, of course, the famous wet boy.

""Unknown people started creating chaos, and pouring water on people. We were specialists and we could see there were no symptoms of the use of chemical weapons," said physician Khalil, who said he was on duty in the emergency care unit. "

https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2018/04/russia-takes-syrians-opcw-western-allies-denounce-stunt-180426184624835.html

sidd

[zizek]

Seriously guys.
There is only one man who can end this conflict and prevent further bloodshed.
And that is Assad.

He can end this conflict TODAY by stepping down and calling for UN-supervised elections open to all Syrians.

If you are anti-war, THAT is what you should be calling for, instead of denying the evidence of his latest atrocity.

Yes. all we need is a democracy. Forget about the diverse and now incredibly hostile demographics. Forget about the billions of dollars of American/Turkish/Saudi/ weapons that are now in the hands of government opposition, Al-Qaeda, and the Kurds. Forget about the Russian and Iran weapons in the hands of Assad supporters. Forget about Turkey trying to expand in the north. Forget about Islamists exerting dominance in Syria. Forget about Russia exerting dominance in Syria. Forget about Iran exerting dominance. Forget about Saudi exerting dominance. Forget about Israel exerting Dominance. Forget about the America exerting dominance in Syria. Forget about Iraq concerned about their borders and oil.  Forget about the 6 million internally displaced refugees. Forget about the 5 million externally displaced refugees.

All we need is some good 'ol fashioned democracy. Bring in the white trucks.  Everything will be fine.

[Hefaistos]

A new study shows that number of attacks on hospitals and other medical facilities in Syria is astounding :
...
Why am I not surprised.

You would be less surprised if you knew that Jihadist strategy is to have their command centers under the hospitals. There were huge tunnels dug out in Douma, e.g.
This Syria war is a war between evil and evil.

[sidd]

Holy shit. Senate Intelligence committee asked Jill Stein for all communications with "all people of Russian descent."

"Stein’s campaign told The Intercept that they have already provided to the committee all communications with people affiliated with the Russian government and Russian media, but not with all people of Russian descent."

Break out the yellow badges.

https://theintercept.com/2018/04/26/russia-jill-stein-senate-intelligence/

sidd

[magnamentis]

Seriously guys.
There is only one man who can end this conflict and prevent further bloodshed.
And that is Assad.

He can end this conflict TODAY by stepping down and calling for UN-supervised elections open to all Syrians.

If you are anti-war, THAT is what you should be calling for, instead of denying the evidence of his latest atrocity.

disqualified for naivety or made up naivety to make your point.

there either is a lot of bias here or a closed mind IMO.

just look at neven's posts, he does not claim to know but suggests to consider and remain open for the part of the thruth that may or may not be hidden by now.

but what am i talking here, probably to no avail.

[TerryM]

This is scary stuff!


I've no idea how many Russians have migrated to the US over the years, but there must by millions of Russian Jews alone.
An ex-wife of mine's family had emigrated in the late 1930's. Her father retired from the marines and an older brother flew B-52s during the Vietnamese "police action".
Are we now to believe that all of these and more are now second class citizens?


Is every federal politician going to be asked these questions?
It may take years just tracking down every young girl that Bill met while he was staying in Putin's house.
IIRC Obama spent some time in Moscow, has he received his letter?


This is making Tail Gunner Joe look like a Boy Scout.


Have they opened the detention camps yet?
Terry