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Author Topic: The Russiagate conspiracy theory  (Read 1120255 times)

Rob Dekker

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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #1300 on: October 13, 2017, 07:57:12 AM »
Rather than relying on anonymous fact checkers I'd advise everyone to do their own "fact checking". I've found both truth and lies in both left and right biased sites.

Well, practice what you preach, Terry. Did YOU do any fact checking on the Awan story ?
If so, what were the results ?
If not, then you are just smearing MediaBiasFactCheck.org without evidence.

And incidentally, where is the evidence for your previous claim, disguised as a question :

Quote
Didn't Steele place one of Trump's lawyers in (Moscow?), when his passport showed him to be somewhere far from there?

Crickets from you so far, Terry.
« Last Edit: October 13, 2017, 08:03:21 AM by Rob Dekker »
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Jim Pettit

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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #1301 on: October 13, 2017, 12:39:56 PM »
I'm sure that you're aware that MBFC is itself demonized as a biased site.

Rather than relying on anonymous fact checkers I'd advise everyone to do their own "fact checking". I've found both truth and lies in both left and right biased sites.

I've certainly "done my own fact checking". And I've been keenly aware of the Daily Caller's co-founder Tucker Carlson for a couple of decades. But, please, I hope others do indeed perform due diligence. I have absolutely no doubt they'll arrive at the same conclusion I did: that the Daily Caller is not an unimpeachable and unbiased source of news.

If someone hopes to convince others via news sources, they'd do their argument a huge favor by using less obviously biased ones than the Daily Caller.

The Awan story may prove interesting. Those that believe there is nothing here should welcome this opportunity to put the rumors to rest.

Yet so very many people declared months ago--and continue to declare--that there's nothing to the Trump/Russian story (one with far greater implications than internecine struggles in the DNC), and we should just drop the investigation.

Interesting way of looking at things. No?

sidd

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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #1302 on: October 13, 2017, 07:54:34 PM »
Re: Awan case reporting

I would welcome sources other than the daily caller. Unfortunately Luke Rosiak one of the few reporters following all the court proceedings that i can find. And if anyone has links to the legal filings, please do post them.

sidd


Buddy

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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #1303 on: October 13, 2017, 08:37:50 PM »
Rachel did a nice piece on her Thursday night show about the Presidential Records Act (instituted after WaterGate).  A group called CREW (a public watchdog group) has sued the White House for records.  It appears that some members in the White House are now using encrypted software that deletes the message after it has been sent.

And in response to the CREW lawsuit....Donnie's department of justice has made the "stand" that the Presidential Records Act...does not apply now.

Keep in mind that this was done last Friday night.  This week.. the White House handed over a long list of documents that had been requested by Bob Mueller. 

This issue is going to come up again in RussiaGate.....because the White House surely did NOT hand over all the documents.  And further....there was SURELY communication that was requested by Muellers group, that was not turned over because the White House likely used encrypted software that disposed of the text/email.

I'm sure that Maddow will circle back to this.  This goes to the obstruction of justice issue.  This is a VERY  BIG deal.....this issue may be one that ends up in the Supreme Court.

The thing with Donnie....is that EVERYTHING he says is suspect.  He has NO moral compass at all.  Fascinating to watch.....in a horrible sort of way.

« Last Edit: October 13, 2017, 10:27:44 PM by Buddy »
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Buddy

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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #1304 on: October 14, 2017, 02:18:01 AM »
Dollars to donuts....Wilbur Ross is in RussiaGate DEEP.  Got to have those contacts in the Cyprus banks to make the money laundering move smoothly.  Wilbur is Donnie's Secretary of Commerce and has deep ties to banks in Cyprus.

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Martin Gisser

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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #1305 on: October 14, 2017, 04:45:05 AM »
Apropos Cyprus...

Manafort Had $60 Million Relationship With a Russian Oligarch
https://www.nbcnews.com/news/world/manafort-had-60m-relationship-russian-oligarch-n810541

logicmanPatrick

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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #1306 on: October 14, 2017, 06:12:55 AM »
Re: Awan case reporting

I would welcome sources other than the daily caller. Unfortunately Luke Rosiak one of the few reporters following all the court proceedings that i can find. And if anyone has links to the legal filings, please do post them.

sidd

Not a lawyer, but I do a little law as an academic sideline.  Will this do you?

United States v. AWAN
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sidd

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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #1307 on: October 14, 2017, 06:56:12 AM »
Nice, thanks. I shall await the Capitol police proceeding next.

Rob Dekker

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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #1308 on: October 14, 2017, 10:29:10 AM »
Not a lawyer, but I do a little law as an academic sideline.  Will this do you?

I'm not a lawyer either, but this lawsuit seems to deal with Awan and his wife (as filing joint tax returns) not declaring rental income from a property they own on a loan application form.
https://www.courtlistener.com/docket/6126435/1/1/united-states-v-awan/

It doesn't have anything to do with Russiagate.
Also, I find it quite weird that an FBI agent :

Quote
Brandon C. Merriman, Special Agent
Federal Bureau of Investigation

is the main prosecutor's witness.

Next time if I don't declare some rental income on a loan application form, will the FBI be on my back as well ?
And will I get a "United States versus Rob Dekker" lawsuit filed against me ?

This Awan thing sounds like a witchhunt to me.
« Last Edit: October 14, 2017, 10:40:03 AM by Rob Dekker »
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SteveMDFP

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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #1309 on: October 14, 2017, 03:09:28 PM »
Not a lawyer, but I do a little law as an academic sideline.  Will this do you?

I'm not a lawyer either, but this lawsuit seems to deal with Awan and his wife (as filing joint tax returns) not declaring rental income from a property they own on a loan application form.
https://www.courtlistener.com/docket/6126435/1/1/united-states-v-awan/

It doesn't have anything to do with Russiagate.
Also, I find it quite weird that an FBI agent :

Quote
Brandon C. Merriman, Special Agent
Federal Bureau of Investigation

is the main prosecutor's witness.

Next time if I don't declare some rental income on a loan application form, will the FBI be on my back as well ?
And will I get a "United States versus Rob Dekker" lawsuit filed against me ?

This Awan thing sounds like a witchhunt to me.

I'm not a lawyer, either, but I'm reasonably well-read.
When it comes to financial crimes, often 90% or more of the evidence may be documentary.
Those documents get entered as exhibits during trial, but the prosecutor needs to put someone on the stand to read them to the jury.
For Federal crimes, the Federal investigator is the logical person.  So the Federal Bureau of Investigation would  have the relevant agents.

I doubt Awan is anything but a red herring.  He worked for congress, and he was a thieving crook.  It's rank speculation that he gave DNC emails to Wikileaks rather than Russia doing so.
I strongly suspect he's only a thieving crook. 

logicmanPatrick

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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #1310 on: October 14, 2017, 04:38:31 PM »
Here's how it works, broadly speaking. :-

If an agency believes that a foreign national  actor may be involved in a serious crime, one of the first things to do is to follow the money.  Find any infraction of regulations sufficiently serious to deny travel rights and / or to obtain warrant /subpoena etc.   If the suspected crime is really serious, get a habeus-corpus-proof detention authorisation.

Armed with warrant / subpoena conduct a more thorough investigation.

In the case of classified matters, detain on a non-secrets-related crime such as fraud / theft / money laundering to prevent ongoing high crimes.

Awan has been a very naughty boy.  He appears to have been passing classified information for financial gain.  The case I pointed to demonstrates sufficient probable cause to show that he has obtained a financial benefit through dishonesty.  Softly, softly, catchee monkey.

[edit]
PS - a court seals orders, i.e. makes them secret, to prevent public knowledge of names in family proceedings and matters of state secrets.
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TerryM

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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #1311 on: October 14, 2017, 07:57:12 PM »
I believe it's evident that Awan had access to DNC information that some would find to be of value.
I believe it's probable that Awan had access to government data that a different set of actors might have seen as valuable.
I think it's possible, but unlikely, that Awan is/was a foreign spy/contract spy, probably for his native Pakistan.
I think it's most likely that Awan's principle motivation is greed.


I don't think Awan is very bright. If he was he'd be long out of our grasp.
I believe Awan thought that someone was covering up for him, and it's possible that someone is, to the best of their ability.


If Awan takes the 5th & his wife claims ignorance of the far worse crimes, Awan could take the fall for falsifying a loan application, (a crime that every member of the jury is guilty of). He'll do some time, then go home as a very rich man who tweaked Uncle Sam's nose. A hero in his own mind.


The above isn't likely, but it is one of the possibilities.
Terry


logicmanPatrick

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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #1312 on: October 15, 2017, 12:21:29 PM »
Terry:
Quote
falsifying a loan application, (a crime that every member of the jury is guilty of)

There are many shades of that.  Here in the UK giving false insurance data is probably the most serious crime of that kind.  The duty of uberrima fides - utmost good faith - applies.  Just ticking a box which ought not to be ticked is enough to invalidate insurance, or perhaps justify a criminal prosecution, depending on the big picture.
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Jim Pettit

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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #1313 on: October 15, 2017, 01:46:01 PM »
I believe it's evident that Awan had access to DNC information that some would find to be of value.
I believe it's probable that Awan had access to government data that a different set of actors might have seen as valuable.
I think it's possible, but unlikely, that Awan is/was a foreign spy/contract spy, probably for his native Pakistan.
I think it's most likely that Awan's principle motivation is greed.


I don't think Awan is very bright. If he was he'd be long out of our grasp.
I believe Awan thought that someone was covering up for him, and it's possible that someone is, to the best of their ability.


If Awan takes the 5th & his wife claims ignorance of the far worse crimes, Awan could take the fall for falsifying a loan application, (a crime that every member of the jury is guilty of). He'll do some time, then go home as a very rich man who tweaked Uncle Sam's nose. A hero in his own mind.


The above isn't likely, but it is one of the possibilities.
Terry

Not that staying strictly on-topic is all that important here, but I have to ask again: what does Awan have to do with Russiagate? It seems to me that, even if the most outlandish right-wing conspiracy theories about Awan and the DNC somehow proved true, it doesn't in the tiniest bit absolve the GOP and the Trump administration from working with Putin and his underlings to throw the 2016 election. Just curious...

AbruptSLR

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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #1314 on: October 15, 2017, 04:09:00 PM »
To me, Trump's foot dragging on imposing the US sanctions on Russia signed into law more than two months ago should be at least monitored by Mueller as likely evidence that Trump is trying to honor his possible promise to Russia to end the US sanctions in exchange for intelligence on Hillary during the 2016 campaign as alleged by the Steele dossier:

Title: "Leading Lawmakers Wonder Why Trump Is Dragging Feet on Russia Sanctions"

http://foreignpolicy.com/2017/10/11/leading-lawmakers-wonder-why-trump-is-dragging-feet-on-russia-sanctions/

Extract: "On Wednesday, leading senators from both parties — Maryland Democrat Ben Cardin and Arizona Republican John McCain — criticized the Donald Trump administration for not meeting a deadline for implementing new sanctions on Russia’s defense and intelligence sectors.

“The delay calls into question the Trump administration’s commitment to the sanctions bill which was signed into law more than two months ago, following months of public debate and negotiations in Congress,” they said in a statement.

“In addition to the administration’s lack of responsiveness on this deadline, there does not appear to be a significant diplomatic effort to engage our allies in Europe and lead an effort to increase pressure on Moscow,” they added. Several European countries bristled at the stepped-up sanctions provisions, especially those dealing with energy, fearing it could scupper business ties between Europe and Moscow."
« Last Edit: October 15, 2017, 05:11:50 PM by AbruptSLR »
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logicmanPatrick

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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #1315 on: October 15, 2017, 05:02:45 PM »
I believe it's evident that Awan had access to DNC information that some would find to be of value.
I believe it's probable that Awan had access to government data that a different set of actors might have seen as valuable.
I think it's possible, but unlikely, that Awan is/was a foreign spy/contract spy, probably for his native Pakistan.

/snip

Terry

Not that staying strictly on-topic is all that important here, but I have to ask again: what does Awan have to do with Russiagate? It seems to me that, even if the most outlandish right-wing conspiracy theories about Awan and the DNC somehow proved true, it doesn't in the tiniest bit absolve the GOP and the Trump administration from working with Putin and his underlings to throw the 2016 election. Just curious...

Awan may have been a Russian agent.

Quote
Federal authorities are investigating whether sensitive data was stolen from congressional offices by several Pakistani-American tech staffers and sold to Pakistani or Russian intelligence, knowledgeable sources say.
http://nypost.com/2017/08/19/it-staffers-may-have-compromised-sensitive-data-to-foreign-intelligence/
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Buddy

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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #1316 on: October 15, 2017, 05:12:08 PM »
When I said "Donnie wants what Vladi has"....I meant it quite literally...and he will try to get as much as possible.  He has ignored:

1). Any thought of separating his company assets from govt business.

2)  He has ignored....as ASLR said above....his responsibility to enforce new sanctions.

3). He has ignored his responsibility to protect future US elections from hacking....and ignored many sources of information that have discovered Russian influence CURRENTLY involved.

Donnie not only WAS...but STILL IS working with Vladi.  He is all in....and it requires some Republicans to admit the truth...which is very difficult for some of them to admit.



« Last Edit: October 16, 2017, 11:30:15 PM by Buddy »
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TerryM

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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #1317 on: October 15, 2017, 06:33:11 PM »
ASLR


Isn't lowering tensions with Russia one of Trump's campaign pledges? Why would attempting to fulfill a campaign promise be seen in a negative light?
This is after all the reason a number of voters gave him the nod.


Terry

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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #1318 on: October 15, 2017, 08:00:49 PM »
ASLR


Isn't lowering tensions with Russia one of Trump's campaign pledges? Why would attempting to fulfill a campaign promise be seen in a negative light?
This is after all the reason a number of voters gave him the nod.


Terry

Terry,

Your question implies that you believe that Trump should feel free to break any law that he wants (such as the new Congressional bill requiring new sanctions on Russia) so long as it pleases his base.  I find this line of questioning disturbing to say the least.

ASLR
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AbruptSLR

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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #1319 on: October 15, 2017, 08:03:40 PM »
Per the linked article entitled: "At Intersection of Russia Probe and Social Media: Trump's Digital Chief", Mueller is only beginning to investigate what data crimes might have been committed by the Trump Campaign in 2016:

http://www.msn.com/en-us/news/politics/at-intersection-of-russia-probe-and-social-media-trumps-digital-chief/ar-AAtpoAl?li=BBmkt5R&ocid=spartandhp

Extract: "The extent of the Trump digital operation’s activity was largely unreported because there are no federal disclosure requirements for online ads. Unlike when they air television and radio ads, campaigns running online ads aren’t required to disclose how much they paid for the ads, whom they paid and where the ads would run.

Now, lawmakers and Mr. Mueller want to know what role activity on Facebook and Twitter played in the election interference, and whether any Russian social-media activity was connected to the Trump campaign. Facebook has estimated that 10 million people saw ads on its website that were paid for by Russia. Mr. Mueller received copies of Russia-backed Facebook ads last month.

“This was a data crime that occurred, carried out at least by Russia, possibly with cooperation with Trump campaign officials, so any Trump campaign official that worked on data, I think, would be relevant to talk to,” said Rep. Eric Swalwell (D., Calif.), a member of the House Intelligence Committee."
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sidd

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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #1320 on: October 15, 2017, 10:02:33 PM »
Re: Awan case bearing on Russiagate

The allegation has been made that Russia is behind some or all of the email leaks from the democratic party. Awan certainly had access to Wasserman-Schulz emails and those of many other congress reps. He appears to be fairly unscruplous and vulnerable to blackmail. Therefore I think the Awan case may have bearing.  Let us see where the investigations go, especially the ones by the Capitol police.

He now has reason to co-operate with law enforcement, and i think he is already singing.

sidd

Hefaistos

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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #1321 on: October 15, 2017, 10:18:16 PM »
paid for by Russia. Mr. Mueller received copies of Russia-backed Facebook ads last month.

“This was a data crime that occurred, carried out at least by Russia, possibly with cooperation with Trump campaign officials, so any Trump campaign official that worked on data, I think, would be relevant to talk to,” said Rep. Eric Swalwell (D., Calif.), a member of the House Intelligence Committee."

The same propagandistic phrasing as usual by MSM! If a russian guy or a Russian company did some wrong-doing, then there is Putin and the Russian state behind it.

Honestly, if there was a Russian private company paying for ads, I can't understand what the connection is to the Russian state? Do Americans really think that Russia still is a communist country, where the president decides about the dealings by millions of Russians /private Russian companies?

My bet is that these ads, as well as other manipulations towards American democracy, were made in a set-up that originates on American soil. Look for a perpetrator among those that have a real motive.

sidd

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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #1322 on: October 15, 2017, 10:31:18 PM »
I hope those ads are made public. I would like to know if any of the ads purchased by foreign entities were election campaign related. That is a crime in the USA. Of course, that law can be maneuvered around, for an example see AIPAC, but there are others.

sidd

Jim Pettit

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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #1323 on: October 15, 2017, 11:29:55 PM »
Awan may have been a Russian agent.

I'm aware of that, of course. But the term "Russiagate", such as it has been defined, refers to proven Trump/GOP collusion with Russia; I wasn't aware that definition had expanded to become a catch-all term for anything possibly (or possibly not) having to do with Russia.

Mea culpa...

Jim Pettit

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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #1324 on: October 15, 2017, 11:34:41 PM »
Isn't lowering tensions with Russia one of Trump's campaign pledges? Why would attempting to fulfill a campaign promise be seen in a negative light?

This is after all the reason a number of voters gave him the nod.

"Lowering tensions" is one thing; "Engaging in a little quid pro quo with Russia to subvert the democratic process so Putin could see the power of the US decrease while that of Russia increased" is quite another. as most would likely agree.

TerryM

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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #1325 on: October 16, 2017, 12:08:42 AM »
Isn't lowering tensions with Russia one of Trump's campaign pledges? Why would attempting to fulfill a campaign promise be seen in a negative light?

This is after all the reason a number of voters gave him the nod.

"Lowering tensions" is one thing; "Engaging in a little quid pro quo with Russia to subvert the democratic process so Putin could see the power of the US decrease while that of Russia increased" is quite another. as most would likely agree.


Are you saying that with all the sanctions now in place Putin's Russia is gaining "power" vis a vis the US of A? I've been very critical of the present sanctions, feeling that they were hurting Europe as much as Russia, but never considered that the US was falling behind a hobbled Russia.


What do you see as the "end game". Does Russia struggle endlessly under increasingly crippling sanctions? Are we waiting for Putin to surrender the Crimeans to those who have recently been screaming that they'd "put them to the knife"? Or will the Eu unilaterally decide to forgo cheap Russian energy in favor of the expensive American product?


Terry

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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #1326 on: October 16, 2017, 02:28:38 PM »
Are you saying that with all the sanctions now in place Putin's Russia is gaining "power" vis a vis the US of A? I've been very critical of the present sanctions, feeling that they were hurting Europe as much as Russia, but never considered that the US was falling behind a hobbled Russia.

Wait--you mean the sanctions Trump signed into law back in August--the "Countering America’s Adversaries Through Sanctions Act"--that are still idle here two weeks past the implementation date because Trump is worried about angering his puppetmaster? Those sanctions?

What do you see as the "end game". Does Russia struggle endlessly under increasingly crippling sanctions? Are we waiting for Putin to surrender the Crimeans to those who have recently been screaming that they'd "put them to the knife"? Or will the Eu unilaterally decide to forgo cheap Russian energy in favor of the expensive American product?

No. This isn't about Russians struggling, or Crimean surrender, or Europe's addiction to Gazprom's and Rosneft's products. This is about derailing a hostile foreign actor intent on subverting American democracy. So, the "end game" is prosecuting Americans who aided Russia in that subversion. That's all this has ever been about.

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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #1327 on: October 16, 2017, 02:49:49 PM »
Hefaistos:

Russia is a corrupt kleptocracy.....run by little Vladi.  And little Vladi calls the shots as to killing journalists.....and making sure his friends in business succeed, and that they, in turn, make sure he succeeds.

And that is what Moron Don wants for himself.  And yes....Russia is more than knee deep in the past US election of 2016....and active right now.

When/if Mueller completes his investigation.....the tide will be out....and Donnie and little Vladi will be naked.
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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #1328 on: October 16, 2017, 06:01:31 PM »
I've been very critical of the present sanctions, feeling that they were hurting Europe as much as Russia, but never considered that the US was falling behind a hobbled Russia.

[...] Or will the Eu unilaterally decide to forgo cheap Russian energy in favor of the expensive American product?

Russian GDP is smaller than Italy's:
http://statisticstimes.com/economy/countries-by-projected-gdp.php
So the sanctions won't hurt Europe much. Anyhow, German chancellor Merkel is/was very much for sanctions.

We still buy Russian gas, and will continue to.
BTW, ex German chancellor Schröder, a Putin buddy (not the only reason I regard him corrupted), has recently been appointed chairman of Russian state-controlled oil producer Rosneft.
https://www.ft.com/content/100db270-a518-11e7-9e4f-7f5e6a7c98a2

(BTW2, lots of German rightwing/Nazi hate of Merkel seems to me being amplified by Russian propaganda trolls. Reminds me of Hillary... )

Neven

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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #1329 on: October 16, 2017, 10:46:07 PM »
Now, lawmakers and Mr. Mueller want to know what role activity on Facebook and Twitter played in the election interference, and whether any Russian social-media activity was connected to the Trump campaign. Facebook has estimated that 10 million people saw ads on its website that were paid for by Russia. Mr. Mueller received copies of Russia-backed Facebook ads last month.

Can some more context be given for these numbers? How many other ads did those 10 million people see in that period? How many ads are seen by how many people every day? How much did those ads costs, and how does that amount relate to the total amount of money spent on the elections by both Clinton and Trump? How did those ads look exactly, and were there any comparable ads from other sources? And like Hefaistos said: what does 'by Russia' mean? Is it also 'by Russia' if some kid living in or near Russia places ads as clickbait? Or if it were just Russian private citizens or companies doing their bit, for whatever reasons they may have?

Why are these allegations often so vague?
« Last Edit: March 25, 2019, 08:13:38 PM by Neven »
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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #1330 on: October 16, 2017, 11:12:23 PM »

Russian GDP is smaller than Italy's:
http://statisticstimes.com/economy/countries-by-projected-gdp.php
So the sanctions won't hurt Europe much. Anyhow, German chancellor Merkel is/was very much for sanctions.
Yes, Russia in 11th place does place it, (and Canada), below Italy in terms of GDP. Are there tables that indicate each government's net GDP, something like (GDP-National Debt), or possibly (GDP- interest on National Debt). Those figures might give a better indication of each country's ability to remain economically viable when the SHTF.
Doesn't this indicate that Russia is not gaining "power" when being compared to the number one on your list?


Am I correct in assuming that PPP rankings your link shows reflect each country's ability to keep the masses happy, while the GDP figures show their ability to repay foreign debt?


I'm relieved to learn that the sanctions aren't a problem for Europe. I thought that the most recent round at least was running into European opposition, particularly by those states that would benefit from an up and running Nord Stream 2.


I was aware of Schroder's new job. Unusual for a state-controlled enterprise to hire a foreign chairman, but I don't think it's unique.


I'm not sure, but are we in the correct thread?
Terry


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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #1331 on: October 16, 2017, 11:32:16 PM »
Can some more context be given for these numbers? How many other ads did those 10 million people see in that period? How many ads are seen by how many people every day? How much did those ads costs, and how does that amount relate to the total amount of money spent on the elections by both Clinton and Trump? How did those ads look exactly, and were there any comparable ads from other sources? And like Hefaistos said: what does 'by Russia' mean? Is it also 'by Russia' if some kid living in or near Russia places ads as clickbait? Or if it were just Russian private citizens or companies doing their bit, for whatever reasons they may have?

Why are these allegations often so vague?

Maybe the linked The Guardian article can answer some of your questions until Mueller (who is required to keep his information confidential) presents his case in a court of law:

Title: "How Russia used social media to divide Americans"

https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2017/oct/14/russia-us-politics-social-media-facebook

Extract: "Russian trolls and bots focused on controversial topics in an effort to stoke political division on an enormous scale – and it hasn’t stopped, experts say

Such is the focus on Russian meddling that congressional investigators are increasingly aggressive in asking the big tech companies to account for how their platforms became the staging grounds for an attack on American democracy. Early next month that scrutiny will intensify, with executives from Facebook, Google and Twitter formally invited to appear before the House intelligence committee on Capitol Hill in Washington.

What has now been made clear is that Russian trolls and automated bots not only promoted explicitly pro-Donald Trump messaging, but also used social media to sow social divisions in America by stoking disagreement and division around a plethora of controversial topics such as immigration and Islamophobia."
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TerryM

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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #1332 on: October 16, 2017, 11:36:14 PM »
Now, lawmakers and Mr. Mueller want to know what role activity on Facebook and Twitter played in the election interference, and whether any Russian social-media activity was connected to the Trump campaign. Facebook has estimated that 10 million people saw ads on its website that were paid for by Russia. Mr. Mueller received copies of Russia-backed Facebook ads last month.

Can some more context be given for these numbers? How many other ads did those 10 million people see in that period? How many ads are seen by how many people every day? How much did those ads costs, and how does that amount relate to the total amount of money spent on the elections by both Clinton and Trump? How did those ads look exactly, and were there any comparable ads from other sources? And like Hefaistos said: what does 'by Russia' mean? Is it also 'by Russia' if some kid living in or near Russia places ads as clickbait? Or if it were just Russian private citizens or companies doing their bit, for whatever reasons they may have?

Why are these allegations often so vague?


Do the estimated viewings include those who like myself that run Adblocker, or a similar program?
Are they saying that 10M Americans saw the ads, or is this 10M world wide?
If elections can swayed with so little cash outlay, why are the Democrats still hounding me for financial support?


Terry

sidd

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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #1333 on: October 16, 2017, 11:42:13 PM »
Fusion/GPS founders refuse to testify to House Intelligence committee:

http://www.businessinsider.com/fusion-gps-nunes-subpoena-trump-russia-dossier-2017-10

sidd

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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #1334 on: October 16, 2017, 11:42:45 PM »
Do the estimated viewings include those who like myself that run Adblocker, or a similar program?
Are they saying that 10M Americans saw the ads, or is this 10M world wide?
If elections can swayed with so little cash outlay, why are the Democrats still hounding me for financial support?


Terry

Terry,

If you read the linked article you may find some of the answers to your questions:

Title: "Silicon Valley’s Russian ads problem, explained"

https://www.recode.net/2017/10/6/16419388/facebook-google-twitter-russia-ads-2016-election-president-donald-trump

ASLR
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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #1335 on: October 16, 2017, 11:45:29 PM »
ASLR
Hope they have better luck with these media moguls than they're having with the executives at Fusion GPS. They're refusing the invitation and claiming they'll all take the 5th.


http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2017-10-16/fusion-gps-founders-refuse-comply-congressional-subpoena


Why wouldn't they want to boast about all the information they've uncovered?


Terry
edit - Thanks for the link, I'll get to it shortly.

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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #1336 on: October 17, 2017, 12:22:50 AM »
Is it illegal for foreign entities to " ... sow social divisions in America by stoking disagreement and division around a plethora of controversial topics ..." if those topics are not election related ? First Amendment law is quite strong, although hate speech laws might apply. Any lawyers want to chime in ?

Election related campaigns by foreigners are illegal as I understand it. Unfortunately I can find no data on exactly what the election related ads were. Anyone have links ?

sidd

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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #1337 on: October 17, 2017, 12:41:45 AM »
Is it illegal for foreign entities to " ... sow social divisions in America by stoking disagreement and division around a plethora of controversial topics ..." if those topics are not election related ? First Amendment law is quite strong, although hate speech laws might apply. Any lawyers want to chime in ?

Election related campaigns by foreigners are illegal as I understand it. Unfortunately I can find no data on exactly what the election related ads were. Anyone have links ?

sidd
Here is a link to an article with many examples (of which I attach one example of a Fake Russian Ad on Facebook)

http://www.philly.com/philly/news/politics/presidential/facebook-russia-fake-posts-trump-election-clinton-20171006.html

Obviously, First Amendment rights do not extend to non-US citizens.
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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #1338 on: October 17, 2017, 01:05:19 AM »
According to ASLR's link:
https://www.recode.net/2017/10/6/16419388/facebook-google-twitter-russia-ads-2016-election-president-donald-trump


The 10 Million figure includes only American users.
The ads were on both sides of "contentious" issues. The intent was to "further public debate, and to foment discord".
It's suggested that they "explicitly targeted swing states".
Twitter - found 200 accounts that matched users that facebook had previously "flagged".
Twitter and facebook are still accepting revenue from RT, flagged by intelligence agencies as "a Kremlin propaganda arm".
"Sources say" Google received $4,700 from Kremlin backed sources & an additional $53,000 from other Russian sources. --- Pretty small potatoes.
Oath, formerly Yahoo, and Reddit refused to discuss their sales or user accounts.
Snap found no Russian-bought ads.
Microsoft has been investigating Bling since October.


A Republican climate change skeptic now wants to know if Russia is behind "online opposition to fossil fuels" - and this one has a whole article devoted to it!

Senator Warner wants the big companies to save all their ads and have them "available for public inspection. - - - Wow! Buy an ad for a day & have it available to the public permanently.
The FEC hasn't ruled on a 2011 petition from facebook to exempt them from political ad rulings, Google had asked for a similar exemption earlier.
Both houses plan to "grill" the companies on Nov. 1.


Thanks again ASLR
Are we about to enter into an era where I, as a Canadian, won't be able to argue American politics online?
I don't use facebook or Twitter, but I have been vocal about many divisive subjects, whether an election was eminent or not.
If I wanted to run an ad against the tariffs recently placed on Canadian airplanes, should I consider placing it in my wife's, an American Citizen's name?

I can't imagine that the vaunted American Democratic System is so fragile that it can be brought down so easily for so little. Hope the Canadian System is more robust :)


Terry





sidd

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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #1339 on: October 17, 2017, 01:14:56 AM »
Re: First Amendment rights do not extend to non-US citizens.

This is actually not obvious to me.

"Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances"

Here is an article from georgetown law entitled "Are Foreign Nationals Entitled to the Same
Constitutional Rights As Citizens?"

scholarship.law.georgetown.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1302&context=facpub

"Given this record, it is not surprising that many members of the general public presume that noncitizens do not deserve the same rights as citizens. But the presumption is wrong in many more respects than it is right. While some distinctions between foreign nationals and citizens are normatively justified and consistent with constitutional and international law, most are not. The significance of the citizen/noncitizen distinction is more often presumed than carefully examined. Upon examination, there is far less to the distinction than commonly thought. In particular, foreign nationals are generally entitled to the equal protection of the laws, to political freedoms of speech and association, and to due process requirements of fair procedure where their lives, liberty, or property are at stake."

I am no lawyer. Any lawyers want to chime in ?

sidd
« Last Edit: October 17, 2017, 01:30:22 AM by sidd »

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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #1340 on: October 17, 2017, 01:44:12 AM »
Thanx for the link to philly.com examples. Those, however are not advertisements,they are Facebook posts. What were the ads sold around that content, does anyone know ?

I think it is legal for anyone, US national or otherwise to say pretty much anything they want,  but they cant place election related ads without violating US law. Now, Facebook is a private corporation, so they can choose to allow or disallow any material posted, but i dont know if they must enforce laws against campaign related ad spending also.

Definitely need a lawyer.

sidd

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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #1341 on: October 17, 2017, 03:39:08 AM »

Thanks again ASLR
Are we about to enter into an era where I, as a Canadian, won't be able to argue American politics online?
I don't use facebook or Twitter, but I have been vocal about many divisive subjects, whether an election was eminent or not.
If I wanted to run an ad against the tariffs recently placed on Canadian airplanes, should I consider placing it in my wife's, an American Citizen's name?

I can't imagine that the vaunted American Democratic System is so fragile that it can be brought down so easily for so little. Hope the Canadian System is more robust :)


Terry

I am glad that you, and sidd, and others are so confident in everyone's (US citizens and otherwise) rights when facing growing nationalist abuse of power.  My father-in-law was put into an internment camp by FDR's order; just imagine what Trump might do working in collusion with Putin.
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TerryM

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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #1342 on: October 17, 2017, 03:55:55 AM »

Thanks again ASLR
Are we about to enter into an era where I, as a Canadian, won't be able to argue American politics online?
I don't use facebook or Twitter, but I have been vocal about many divisive subjects, whether an election was eminent or not.
If I wanted to run an ad against the tariffs recently placed on Canadian airplanes, should I consider placing it in my wife's, an American Citizen's name?

I can't imagine that the vaunted American Democratic System is so fragile that it can be brought down so easily for so little. Hope the Canadian System is more robust :)


Terry

I am glad that you, and sidd, and others are so confident in everyone's (US citizens and otherwise) rights when facing growing nationalist abuse of power.  My father-in-law was put into an internment camp by FDR's order; just imagine what Trump might do working in collusion with Putin.
ASLR
I'm in no way certain of anyone's rights, especially in the USofA. Sorry if I gave that impression. I think the anti-Trump forces, at this time, are the ones who are messing with freedom of expression. If Trump prevails, we'll learn what rights he destroys.
I left when it became obvious that Bush Jr. would win a second term. 8)
Terry

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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #1343 on: October 17, 2017, 04:33:12 AM »
" ... you, and sidd, and others are so confident in everyone's (US citizens and otherwise) rights ..."

Not at all. Perhaps you missed the last sentence of my post ?

There are a host of things like Aliens and Sedition act, Espionage act, Korematsu that make me very leery of the actual status of any "right" in the USA, for nationals or foreigners.

The second amendment seems to be the only one that seems to have enuf support to withstand erosion. I guess it tells a lot about the USA. Even a couple roomfuls of dead kids dont matter.

sidd

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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #1344 on: October 17, 2017, 04:53:40 AM »
The second amendment seems to be the only one that seems to have enuf support to withstand erosion. I guess it tells a lot about the USA. Even a couple roomfuls of dead kids dont matter.

sidd

I believe that both you and Terry are acting in good will; but the second amendment will not protect citizen rights from any modern military.  The NRA is only using the second amendment as a symbol that rightwing nationalists can wrap themselves in to say how much that distrust the government, is almost exactly the same way that NFL players who take a knee are expressing the same distrust from outside of Trump's base.  What we need is action that will pull the world together rather than pushing it apart by 'othering'.

Hopefully, the slowly grinding wheels of justice that Mueller represents will both give Trump the opportunity to defend himself while holding him accountable for what he may have done.
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sidd

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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #1345 on: October 17, 2017, 05:14:37 AM »
" ... the second amendment will not protect citizen rights from any modern military. "

Agreed entirely, but this discussion is getting quite far afield.

So, to get back to illegal russian influence in election campaign and trump campaign collusion therein:

Does anyone have a link to campaign advertisements funded from non US sources ? I find links stating Mueller has copies from Facebook and apparently the Senate Intelligence committee has them too, but nobody has released anything as far as I can tell.

Well, mebbe just have to wait for the leaks ...

sidd

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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #1346 on: October 17, 2017, 06:10:05 AM »
It just so happens that I was drinking with a lawyer this evening, and I asked him if it would be illegal for a foreign entity to place advertising in support of a candidate in an election in the USA.

He laughed and said, "Good luck with that. Citizen's United settled it. Anybody, foreign or not can place advertising for candidates in an electoral campaign. What the foreigner cannot do is aid an electoral campaign directly."

He directed me to this article, saying it might be clear enuf even for my tiny, nonlegal brain.

https://www.economist.com/blogs/democracyinamerica/2010/10/buying_election

His last words on the subject were: "So unless one can prove that the Trump campaign directly colluded with placing the ad, gonna be a long row to hoe."

sidd
« Last Edit: October 17, 2017, 06:18:50 AM by sidd »

Hefaistos

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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #1347 on: October 17, 2017, 06:56:55 AM »

Here is a link to an article with many examples (of which I attach one example of a Fake Russian Ad on Facebook)

http://www.philly.com/philly/news/politics/presidential/facebook-russia-fake-posts-trump-election-clinton-20171006.html

Obviously, First Amendment rights do not extend to non-US citizens.

I can't believe how stupid americans are when it comes to dealing with Russiagate. Do they really think, that if a Russian private company bought some ads on social media,that it was Kremlin's deeds? Do they REALLY think that Russia is the same old Soviet union?
That article you link, ASLR, is so full of totally unsubstantiated claims that it's just laughable. Where is the link from private people buying ads to 'Kremlin', to 'Moscow', to 'Putin', etc.?
What about some source criticism?!
Go look for the perpetrators of these social media activities at home, not abroad.
Any US private person or entity could have engaged that Russian company to buy the ads. Am I correct?

Hefaistos

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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #1348 on: October 17, 2017, 07:25:47 AM »
Here's a good article from Vox on the role of Cambridge analytica (CA)

The co called 'troll factory' in St. Petersburg and CA are principally equivalent agents. ANYONE can buy their services. Trump campaign bought services from CA. As a result, they wanted ads targeting specific people/groups/geographic regions. Someone engaged the troll factory to buy the ads, and provided them with the material for the ads.

My suggestion is that some americans are the real perpetrators behind these activities. I have the following arguments:
1. Motive, who has the stronger motive here?
2. Language, who has the skill to write correct English text? Definitely not Russians...
3. Content, who has the insight into what content would work to sow discord?

Flynn's role is discussed in the article, he seems to be the link from Trump to CA. And he is well connected in Russia as well.
Also, CA was created by Robert Mercer, the billionaire patron of right-wing outlets like Breitbart News.

https://www.vox.com/policy-and-politics/2017/10/16/15657512/cambridge-analytica-trump-kushner-flynn-russia
« Last Edit: October 17, 2017, 07:32:27 AM by Hefaistos »

sidd

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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #1349 on: October 17, 2017, 07:56:39 AM »
My current understanding is that even the Kremlin is legally alllowed to post content and advertising in support or in opposition to candidates in federal elections without violation of federal law of the USA.

However, a campaign in a federal election is not allowed to receive direct aid from a foreign entity (ignoring foramoment that there are ways around that, too.)

So in federal law,  Russiagate hinges on whether the Trump campaign can be proved to have colluded directly with foreign entities for campaign aid.

That said, as to impeachment:

Impeachment grounds are notoriously ill defined, the House can choose to impeach for pretty much whatever suits their fancy, and then the Senate decides. The current House and Senate will not impeach and confirm, barring Trump choking McConnell to death on the House floor or the equivalent. Which given Trump's disposition, I cannot entirely rule out ...

So impeachment hopes are based upon democrat takeover of House and Senate in 2018. Let us see.

I personally think that Trump might quit on his own. This can't be any fun for him.

sidd