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Author Topic: The Russiagate conspiracy theory  (Read 1120178 times)

AbruptSLR

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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #1350 on: October 17, 2017, 03:35:24 PM »
My current understanding is that even the Kremlin is legally alllowed to post content and advertising in support or in opposition to candidates in federal elections without violation of federal law of the USA.

However, a campaign in a federal election is not allowed to receive direct aid from a foreign entity (ignoring foramoment that there are ways around that, too.)

So in federal law,  Russiagate hinges on whether the Trump campaign can be proved to have colluded directly with foreign entities for campaign aid.

That said, as to impeachment:

Impeachment grounds are notoriously ill defined, the House can choose to impeach for pretty much whatever suits their fancy, and then the Senate decides. The current House and Senate will not impeach and confirm, barring Trump choking McConnell to death on the House floor or the equivalent. Which given Trump's disposition, I cannot entirely rule out ...

So impeachment hopes are based upon democrat takeover of House and Senate in 2018. Let us see.

I personally think that Trump might quit on his own. This can't be any fun for him.

sidd

For completeness, don't forget about a Pence orchestrated implementation of the 25th Amendment.
“It is not the strongest or the most intelligent who will survive but those who can best manage change.”
― Leon C. Megginson

AbruptSLR

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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #1351 on: October 17, 2017, 03:42:53 PM »

Here is a link to an article with many examples (of which I attach one example of a Fake Russian Ad on Facebook)

http://www.philly.com/philly/news/politics/presidential/facebook-russia-fake-posts-trump-election-clinton-20171006.html

Obviously, First Amendment rights do not extend to non-US citizens.

I can't believe how stupid americans are when it comes to dealing with Russiagate. Do they really think, that if a Russian private company bought some ads on social media,that it was Kremlin's deeds? Do they REALLY think that Russia is the same old Soviet union?
That article you link, ASLR, is so full of totally unsubstantiated claims that it's just laughable. Where is the link from private people buying ads to 'Kremlin', to 'Moscow', to 'Putin', etc.?
What about some source criticism?!
Go look for the perpetrators of these social media activities at home, not abroad.
Any US private person or entity could have engaged that Russian company to buy the ads. Am I correct?

In a reality where Putin has publically declared that whoever controls advanced AI (even if only in a 6 month window) will rule the world; you will soon find out how Machiavellian leaders (like Putin & Trump) will distort the 'truth' (such as by using AI spam-bots etc) so much that the majority of people won't know up from down (think both Orwell's & Huxley's dystopias).

Edits: Populists (both right and left) like to think of themselves as 'the pure people' fighting the good fight against the 'corrupt elite' (whether the Deep State, Corporate Democrats or kleptocracies like the Trump Administration).  However, populist leaders typically learn very early that by manipulating the 'truth' they can control power (say by draining the 'swamp' of elitist climate change scientists), which generally leaves the majority of people out in the cold.
« Last Edit: October 17, 2017, 05:16:24 PM by AbruptSLR »
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logicmanPatrick

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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #1352 on: October 17, 2017, 03:56:26 PM »
A  quick reply to many of the questions and comments recently posted.

I am not a lawyer but have an interest in law that used to be purely academic.  I can say no more at this time because of the sub judice rule and my reluctance to find out if prison food is good or bad. :-)

US administrative and constitutional law seems to support web freedom of speech, expression and opinion.

I am not aware of any test case, but case law on the mails seems to apply to the web: there is a 1st amendment right to receive information.  That case law supports the idea that freedom of speech is infringed if freedom to read / listen is infringed.  It goes back to the McCarthy era when the US government wanted to obstruct / monitor the flow of communist propaganda by mail.  The US Supreme Court ruled:

Quote
The regime of this Act is at war with the "uninhibited, robust, and wide-open" debate and discussion that are contemplated by the First Amendment. New York Times Co. v. Sullivan, 376 U. S. 254, 376 U. S. 270.

Lamont v. Postmaster General 381 U.S. 301 (1965)


As to Pence: he may well be helping to give Trump enough proverbial rope ...   Nasty man!  Would be a worse POTUS than trump, and that's saying a lot.
si hoc legere scis nimium eruditionis habes

Rob Dekker

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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #1353 on: October 18, 2017, 04:08:08 AM »
In a reality where Putin has publically declared that whoever controls advanced AI (even if only in a 6 month window) will rule the world; you will soon find out how Machiavellian leaders (like Putin & Trump) will distort the 'truth' (such as by using AI spam-bots etc) so much that the majority of people won't know up from down (think both Orwell's & Huxley's dystopias).

Spot on !
I have worked my whole adult life in the Information Technology sector, working on electronics that connect the world, believing that Internet would allow anyone, anywhere to know the truth about anything.

But I didn't think how it also enables propaganda. Lots of propaganda.

I think it was Martin Gisser who stated :
"The duties of citizenship now extend to fact-checking the internet."
So, so true.

I really hope that enough people follow that duty, or else I feel, as Doctor Waldman once stated : "We have created a monster, and it will destroy us!"
« Last Edit: October 18, 2017, 04:23:21 AM by Rob Dekker »
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Rob Dekker

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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #1354 on: October 18, 2017, 04:18:35 AM »
Interesting article by CNN :
http://www.cnn.com/2017/10/17/politics/russian-oligarch-putin-chef-troll-factory

They found a Russian oligarch that financed the St. Petersburg "troll farm" "Internet Research Agency" (IRA), which spreads dis/mis-information to Russian citizens and foreigners alike.
Budget of $1 million/month. Employs about 1,000 Russian trolls, and that is just one building.
« Last Edit: October 18, 2017, 04:31:29 AM by Rob Dekker »
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Hefaistos

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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #1355 on: October 18, 2017, 08:15:07 AM »
Interesting article by CNN :
http://www.cnn.com/2017/10/17/politics/russian-oligarch-putin-chef-troll-factory

They found a Russian oligarch that financed the St. Petersburg "troll farm" "Internet Research Agency" (IRA), which spreads dis/mis-information to Russian citizens and foreigners alike.
Budget of $1 million/month. Employs about 1,000 Russian trolls, and that is just one building.

I have lived some 8 years in Russia, and there simply are no Russians available at a salary of 500 USD/month that can express themselves correctly in English. If you pay 5000 USD/month you might find some, but even then they make some typical errors both in written and spoken English. I know, because I have been in this business.
Again, the 'troll farm' is a commercial, private entity, their services are for sale to anyone who pays, and as long as the job is not against Russias interests. 
The troll farms are mainly for Russian-speaking audiences, e.g. in Ukraine.

Hefaistos

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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #1356 on: October 18, 2017, 08:22:43 AM »
In a reality where Putin has publically declared that whoever controls advanced AI (even if only in a 6 month window) will rule the world; you will soon find out how Machiavellian leaders (like Putin & Trump) will distort the 'truth' (such as by using AI spam-bots etc) so much that the majority of people won't know up from down (think both Orwell's & Huxley's dystopias).

Spot on !
I have worked my whole adult life in the Information Technology sector, working on electronics that connect the world, believing that Internet would allow anyone, anywhere to know the truth about anything.

But I didn't think how it also enables propaganda. Lots of propaganda.

I think it was Martin Gisser who stated :
"The duties of citizenship now extend to fact-checking the internet."
So, so true.

I really hope that enough people follow that duty, or else I feel, as Doctor Waldman once stated : "We have created a monster, and it will destroy us!"

Agreed!
This is also something that is practised in commercial marketing: Manipulation of people.
Nothing new there, and most people are adapted to it, and have defense mechanisms in place.
Not least in the US, politics is a marketplace, money rules.
Modern marketing techniques such as used by Cambridge Analytica just makes the marketing process more efficient, and more scary. But people will learn, and raise their defences.

Neven

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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #1357 on: October 18, 2017, 01:00:30 PM »
Just imagine if this was about Trump:

FBI Implicates Obama & Clinton In Russia Bribery Plot

« Last Edit: October 18, 2017, 03:56:40 PM by Neven »
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Martin Gisser

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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #1358 on: October 18, 2017, 02:28:04 PM »
Just imagine if this was about Trump:

FBI Implicates Obama & Clinton In Russia Bribery Plot


I'm on the run, so no time to fact-check this. It smells of whataboutism, "Obama and Hillary worse than Trump". Last time I looked I had to conclude that Dore is effectively a right-wing spin doctor and Trump apologist in tandem with Sean Hannity.  E.g. he once said "Hillary sold Plutonium to Russia", which is double BS.

The whole story started with the bunk book:
Quote
Clinton Cash: The Untold Story of How and Why Foreign Governments and Businesses Helped Make Bill and Hillary Rich, an exposé of alleged Clinton Foundation corruption written by Peter Schweizer, a former Hoover Institution fellow and editor-at-large at the right-wing media company Breitbart.
By neglect of journalistic duty, the NYTimes lent Schweitzer their credibility with this article: https://www.nytimes.com/2015/04/24/us/cash-flowed-to-clinton-foundation-as-russians-pressed-for-control-of-uranium-company.html

Watch this fact check page (which back then I checked and found reliable):
http://www.snopes.com/hillary-clinton-uranium-russia-deal/
They already got an "update", just recording this new reporting of The Hill cited by Dore:
http://thehill.com/policy/national-security/355749-fbi-uncovered-russian-bribery-plot-before-obama-administration




------------------
Edit-P.S.:
Dore and many "progressives" seem to like Schweizer's book. If you want to fact check a Clinton money story, look if it is in the book.
Quote
Clinton Cash Author Peter Schweizer Admits He's Wrong On Bogus Clinton "Veto Power" Claim
May 5, 2015
[...]
Clinton Cash, is being released today and claims the Clintons helped foreign donors through State Department decisions. The book features over 20 errors, fabrications, and distortions.
[...]
https://www.mediamatters.org/blog/2015/05/05/clinton-cash-author-peter-schweizer-admits-hes/203528
« Last Edit: October 18, 2017, 02:55:34 PM by Martin Gisser »

Neven

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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #1359 on: October 18, 2017, 02:49:00 PM »
Quote
"Obama and Hillary worse than Trump"

Maybe that's some people's goal when bringing this up. It isn't Dore's goal, and it certainly isn't mine.

All I'm saying is that Trump and Obama and the Clintons and the Bushes, and so on, are the ugly and pretty faces of the same enemy of the people (not just the American people, all the people in the world). They are essentially the same. The only thing that is different, is our reaction to them and their acts.

Which is why I ask: Imagine that Trump did this, receiving tens of millions of dollars from the Russia-nuclear sphere (which is already pretty insane in itself), and some lucrative deal being made that Trump may have had a hand in. Would Snopes have checked those facts the same way? Would media coverage be the same?

All I ask for, here and in other threads, is that we stop accepting these false choices and become aware of how we keep getting fooled into believing these polarizing narratives. But most of all, that we apply the same standards to all persons and all organisations, regardless of how they may appear or present themselves.

Unless some of us are oligarchs who have a stake in keeping this system the way it is, of course.  ;)
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TerryM

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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #1360 on: October 18, 2017, 03:02:46 PM »
Neven
For some time I've been unable to follow your video links. I'm running chrome on a standard windows set up & fear many others may share this problem.
It's now been ~1 month.
Terry

Martin Gisser

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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #1361 on: October 18, 2017, 03:39:46 PM »
For some time I've been unable to follow your video links. I'm running chrome on a standard windows set up & fear many others may share this problem.
Got the same problem. Solution: Click "Quote" and copy-paste the YouTube link in browser window. That's how and why I modified the quote of Neven's comment to give you a clickable link to the video.

--------------

false choices
There are false choices and there are false equivalencies. And there is a middle way.

------------
Edit-P.S.:
Quote
It isn't Dore's goal
I strongly suspect it is. Haven't fact-checked other things from him, but the 2-3 Obama/Hillary things I checked suggested to me that he is actively and knowingly smearing Obama and Hillary. E.g. denouncing Obama for not having introduced single-payer healthcare is just hilariously uninformed - or... And the way he told it amounts to hate speech for my taste. Or maybe he's just a stupid parrot. :(
« Last Edit: October 18, 2017, 03:54:08 PM by Martin Gisser »

Neven

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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #1362 on: October 18, 2017, 03:58:50 PM »
Neven
For some time I've been unable to follow your video links. I'm running chrome on a standard windows set up & fear many others may share this problem.
It's now been ~1 month.
Terry

I see it too now. This probably is a consequence of the time the ASIF was taken off-line by the hosting company. I'll alert DM and see if he can remedy.
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Martin Gisser

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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #1363 on: October 18, 2017, 04:02:28 PM »
The "problem" seems to be http vs. https.  Images via http also don't work. This is basic internet security. Inserting video with https could work. Maybe try editing your post, just add the "s" to http.

Neven

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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #1364 on: October 18, 2017, 04:16:58 PM »
Or maybe he's just a stupid parrot. :(

If you absolutely have to smear the messenger, then that would make much more sense than implying Dore is a spin doctor or Kremlin puppet. I've seen him being wrong on a couple of occasions as well, but I agree with the story he tells, and that's that there is no false equivalence between the pretty and ugly faces, because they are both masks of the same entity, system, establishment, 0.1%, however you want to call it. They are the same.

If we need to polarize into We vs They, I think we need to do it this way: We, all the powerless people in the world who want peace, equality and justice vs They, the powerful and their lackeys, who are spurred on by a mountain of concentrated wealth, to make that mountain infinitely bigger, at an exponential rate, no matter what the costs or consequences.

Trump, Obama, the Clintons, the Bushes, the Kochs, the Mercers, the Russian and Ukrainian oligarchs, the Saudi Arabian royal family, IS, Al Qaeda, every big corporation in the world, and so on, they all belong to the latter.

You, me, everyone on this forum, Trump voters, Hillary voters, Bernie voters, Russians, Ukrainians, Saudis, Iraqis, Christians, Muslims, Jews, Hindus, and so on, we all belong to the former.

And They use Us to further their agendas, by dividing us through a polarizing spectacle to keep our eyes off the ball. And it doesn't matter what your IQ is. We are all equally susceptible to this tsunami of propaganda, coming at us from all sides.

But We can't fight Them directly, because even They are not the masters, but rather the servants and lackeys of that mountain of concentrated wealth. I would even go so far as to call Them victims as well, just like Us (never mind the fact that we all die one day). The only meaningful way we can fight, is by immobilizing that mountain of concentrated wealth, so that there is no longer any need for it to keep growing like the Blob.

What we're doing here on this Forum, bickering about who is worst, which propaganda is more factual, and who is a stupid puppet and who isn't, isn't meaningful at all. It is just a bunch of older guys who live in their heads, shooting frustrations at each other, playing right into the hands of Them.

And yes, I'm a part of that too.
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Neven

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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #1365 on: October 18, 2017, 04:17:46 PM »
The "problem" seems to be http vs. https.  Images via http also don't work. This is basic internet security. Inserting video with https could work. Maybe try editing your post, just add the "s" to http.

It used to work by inserting removing the 's' of https, but that seems to have changed. Again, I'll have to ask DungeonMaster.
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Buddy

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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #1366 on: October 18, 2017, 08:00:38 PM »
I watched "All The Presidents Men Re-visited".  I think this is the 4th time over the last year.  With each time.....I pick up more and more....and perhaps get a small understanding of what is going on inside the White House.

Nixon is so much like Trump in so many ways:  Inability to say he was wrong; Insatiable appetite to strike back at his enemies; Kind of an "outsider" and not "normal" in social situations.

If you want to ruin any sleep you might get over the next 12 months or more.....AND get an idea of what is NOW going on INSIDE the White House.....then watch another video:  "Reputations:  The Secret World Of Richard Nixon" Part I (done by the BBC).  FASCINATING.  A broader look at Nixon...

THEN.....you will know the types of things now going on inside and around Moron Don.  It is.....pretty sobering stuff.

To paraphrase a quote:  "Those who do not know history's mistakes are doomed to repeat them."

Ignore history at your own peril...
FOX (RT) News....."The Trump Channel.....where truth and journalism are dead."

Neven

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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #1367 on: October 18, 2017, 08:09:31 PM »
It used to work by inserting removing the 's' of https, but that seems to have changed. Again, I'll have to ask DungeonMaster.

I've installed a new mod to the Forum that automatically embeds YouTube links. It seems to have worked. Can everyone see this?

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ivica

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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #1368 on: October 18, 2017, 08:40:19 PM »
Quote
I've installed a new mod to the Forum that automatically embeds YouTube links. It seems to have worked. Can everyone see this?
Works here, even on Tor,
leaves a bit strange effects on my mussings at Café https://forum.arctic-sea-ice.net/index.php/topic,179.msg131615.html#new but I can live with that - if there is no other solution.

BTW:
From 21:24 at
"Just about everyone who was implicated in this Russian corruption case ...
2009. and onwards ... /spare me of it - listen video ;) and possibly comment /
are now in key positions in the investigation of the Trump Russia Collusion."

TerryM

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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #1369 on: October 18, 2017, 08:43:04 PM »
Works perfectly now.


Thanks so much.
Terry

Tor Bejnar

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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #1370 on: October 18, 2017, 08:49:11 PM »
Quote
Works here, even on Tor
Not only that, but it works for Tor!
 ;)
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Neven

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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #1371 on: October 18, 2017, 09:11:30 PM »
Works here, even on Tor,
leaves a bit strange effects on my mussings at Café https://forum.arctic-sea-ice.net/index.php/topic,179.msg131615.html#new but I can live with that - if there is no other solution.

Sorry about that, I don't know if it's possible to post YouTube links without them getting embedded automatically.

Quote
BTW:
From 21:24 at
"Just about everyone who was implicated in this Russian corruption case ...
2009. and onwards ... /spare me of it - listen video ;) and possibly comment /
are now in key positions in the investigation of the Trump Russia Collusion."

He may make some good points, but I can't watch Stefan Molyneux for very long, because he's an incredibly arrogant climate science denier who has a way of talking as if he's some super-scientist/philosopher who knows everything.

BTW, I wonder if Trump is going to use any of this stuff, or mention there has been an update to the Uranium-deal investigations. It would be very interesting if he didn't.
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TerryM

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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #1372 on: October 18, 2017, 09:21:29 PM »
Neven
You, me, and many others on this forum have lived in different cultures long enough to have been enculturated, to some extent. Enculturation may be the process of absorbing enough of the local propaganda to "blend in".


While going through this enculturation both the old and the new propagandas suddenly become visible, and I think many of us, recognizing the lies we had lived with, are less susceptible to the incoming batch. We've put on the sunglasses, and nothing will ever look the same. (They Live)


You mention that IQ is no protection. I wrote an article some years ago that explored the possibility that the gifted and extremely gifted are actually more prone to be drawn to the extremist positions that propagandists often stake out. Simple awareness that others are continuously bending and stretching whatever truth there is may be our only armor.


Terry

Martin Gisser

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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #1373 on: October 18, 2017, 10:11:08 PM »
but I can't watch Stefan Molyneux for very long, because he's an incredibly arrogant
yeah, couldn't make more than a few minutes

Quote
climate science denier who has a way of talking as if he's some super-scientist/philosopher who knows everything.
And thus he is disqualified. Climate literacy is my litmus test. Who fails it is a waste of time. Period. Heck, would you trust the ramblings of anybody who believes in witches?

Susan Anderson

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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #1374 on: October 18, 2017, 10:30:57 PM »
Came across a neat Jonathan Swift in my travels (I was looking for the old one: lies travel around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes), 1710:
Quote
as the vilest Writer has his Readers, so the greatest Liar has his Believers; and it often happens, that if a Lie be believ’d only for an Hour, it has done its Work, and there is no farther occasion for it. Falsehood flies, and the Truth comes limping after it; so that when Men come to be undeceiv’d, it is too late; the Jest is over, and the Tale has had its Effect…
https://quoteinvestigator.com/2014/07/13/truth/

I wish people would avoid displaying that horrible face. Trump is unimaginably monstrous. As to Russiagate, here's the background from which Putin's oligarchs rescued him. He's in hock to them, that's one reason why he insults everybody else but dictators and Putin. I couldn't get the video not to post: it's chapter and verse about his greed and lousy business practices. Trump 1990s ABC news bankruptcies and bills:

TerryM

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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #1375 on: October 18, 2017, 10:42:14 PM »
Susan
I particularly liked your quote.


No one today believes in Saddam's WMD's, but does it now matter?
There is a terribly finality occurring when war is seen as a solution.
Terry

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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #1376 on: October 19, 2017, 12:32:06 AM »
Quote
I couldn't get the video not to post

Code: [Select]
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kBuI33cNNhc
Does code tags around it work? Seems so (but then it isn't a link and I cannot see a way to make it a link without it displaying maybe tinyurl but that seems going a bit far).

« Last Edit: October 19, 2017, 12:38:54 AM by crandles »

AbruptSLR

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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #1377 on: October 19, 2017, 02:52:28 AM »
In a reality where Putin has publically declared that whoever controls advanced AI (even if only in a 6 month window) will rule the world; you will soon find out how Machiavellian leaders (like Putin & Trump) will distort the 'truth' (such as by using AI spam-bots etc) so much that the majority of people won't know up from down (think both Orwell's & Huxley's dystopias).

Spot on !
I have worked my whole adult life in the Information Technology sector, working on electronics that connect the world, believing that Internet would allow anyone, anywhere to know the truth about anything.

But I didn't think how it also enables propaganda. Lots of propaganda.

I think it was Martin Gisser who stated :
"The duties of citizenship now extend to fact-checking the internet."
So, so true.

I really hope that enough people follow that duty, or else I feel, as Doctor Waldman once stated : "We have created a monster, and it will destroy us!"

Here is an old post by JimD from the 'Empire - America and the future' thread about weaponizing propaganda:

Tell me what you think of this.

https://scout.ai/story/the-rise-of-the-weaponized-ai-propaganda-machine
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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #1378 on: October 19, 2017, 04:01:02 AM »
Jeff Sessions had a very bad day today under questioning by  congressional committee.  Very bad...and very revealing. 🙀  He just can't keep his lies straight.  And his body language is giving him away.  We're NOT going to see Jeffrey at the world poker championships anytime soon.😸

« Last Edit: October 19, 2017, 11:20:09 AM by Buddy »
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Rob Dekker

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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #1379 on: October 19, 2017, 04:43:27 AM »
All I'm saying is that Trump and Obama and the Clintons and the Bushes, and so on, are the ugly and pretty faces of the same enemy of the people (not just the American people, all the people in the world). They are essentially the same.

Be careful, Neven.

If all you have is a hammer ("same enemy of the people") then everything looks like a nail ("They are essentially the same").

Quote
Trump, Obama, the Clintons, the Bushes, the Kochs, the Mercers, the Russian and Ukrainian oligarchs, the Saudi Arabian royal family, IS, Al Qaeda, every big corporation in the world, and so on, they all belong to the latter.

Is Putin intentionally missing from this list ?
Or should I ask : Why is Putin missing from this list ?
« Last Edit: October 19, 2017, 05:42:28 AM by Rob Dekker »
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TerryM

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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #1380 on: October 19, 2017, 05:59:22 AM »
ASLR
Your link points to a near future in which democracy is totally subverted, and evidence that this has already taken place.


Facebook and twitter seem central to this ploy, so staying far from these platforms seems wise. With Soros from the left and Bannon from the right, the color revolutions and Brexit, saying nothing of Trump's victory, may need to be seen in a new light.
Perhaps endless campaigns need to somehow be curtailed? but I've no idea how this could be done without putting the internet genii back in his bottle.


May the bot wars begin!
Terry

Rob Dekker

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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #1381 on: October 19, 2017, 06:00:21 AM »
Here is an old post by JimD from the 'Empire - America and the future' thread about weaponizing propaganda:

Tell me what you think of this.

https://scout.ai/story/the-rise-of-the-weaponized-ai-propaganda-machine

Yes. Interesting article about AI propaganda and the influence of Cambridge Analytica in the 2016 elections and elsewhere.

I think that "astro-turfing" in general has already been playing a role on Internet for a while, specifically in the war-of-words about subjects like climate change and Keystone XL etc.
I don't see how otherwise (but with the help of AI) that so many blog commenters supported the fossil fuel industry and attacked scientists in such a vicious way.

In this article specifically, they do outline how AI systems/models can profile everyone individually, which could take (or has already taken) AI propaganda to a different level.

Yet I don't quite understand how AI can change users opinions at the individual level.
The article mentions this :

Quote
For Analytica, the feedback is instant and the response automated: Did this specific swing voter in Pennsylvania click on the ad attacking Clinton’s negligence over her email server? Yes? Serve her more content that emphasizes failures of personal responsibility. No? The automated script will try a different headline, perhaps one that plays on a different personality trait -- say the voter’s tendency to be agreeable toward authority figures. Perhaps: “Top Intelligence Officials Agree: Clinton’s Emails Jeopardized National Security.”

Much of this is done through Facebook dark posts, which are only visible to those being targeted.

Quote
In the weeks leading up to a final vote, a campaign could launch a $10-100 million dark post campaign targeting just a few million voters in swing districts and no one would know.
Do you know what these "Facebook dark posts" are and how they work ?
« Last Edit: October 19, 2017, 07:58:46 AM by Rob Dekker »
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Neven

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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #1382 on: October 19, 2017, 10:10:34 AM »
Is Putin intentionally missing from this list ?
Or should I ask : Why is Putin missing from this list ?

I think it's safe to consider him part of 'the Russian and Ukrainian oligarchs'.
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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #1383 on: October 19, 2017, 01:29:45 PM »
... Sorry about that, I don't know if it's possible to post YouTube links without them getting embedded automatically.

Click me, please :)  

Quote
Quote
BTW:
From 21:24 at
"Just about everyone who was implicated in this Russian corruption case ...
2009. and onwards ... /spare me of it - listen video ;) and possibly comment /
are now in key positions in the investigation of the Trump Russia Collusion."

He may make some good points, but I can't watch Stefan Molyneux for very long, because he's an incredibly arrogant climate science denier who has a way of talking as if he's some super-scientist/philosopher who knows everything.

BTW, I wonder if Trump is going to use any of this stuff, or mention there has been an update to the Uranium-deal investigations. It would be very interesting if he didn't.

If "Those implicated in Corruption case are investigators in Collusion case" is so then one may wonder/speculate Why? One of possibilities - ruskiefobs might like it :-X : Being compromised they are easier to control.

Buddy

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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #1384 on: October 19, 2017, 02:16:30 PM »
Barrack Obama is the same as Donald Trump (sarcasm intended).

Just like Tom Brady of the New England Patriots is the same as Tim Temow (previously of the Denver Broncos).

I can set up false equivalencies all day....it doesn't mean they hold water.  The only thing that Tom Brady and Tim Tebow have in common is that they both played the same position...QB.

Same for Obama v Trump.  They were both president.  That is IT. 🏈  Vast differences in policy, vast difference in what they were/are trying to accomplish, vast differences in the direction of how they try to move the needle and in who's direction, and obviously vast differences in ethics.

No....they are/were both trying to keep the small guy down while enriching the wealthy.  Only one of them IS now trying to do that.

« Last Edit: October 19, 2017, 03:37:27 PM by Buddy »
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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #1385 on: October 19, 2017, 02:45:49 PM »
With Soros from the left and Bannon from the right...

Only someone steeped in and blinded by right wing ideology would make the claim that Soros and Bannon are two sides of the same coin.

Soros is a hedge fund manager and philanthropist who has donated billions toward his Open Society Foundation, an organization that exists to promote democracy and human rights around the globe. Bannon is the self-proclaimed leader of the alt-right, and is the darling of racists, sexists, xenophobes, and anti-Semites everywhere.

Takeaways:

1) The two men are nearly polar opposites, but that doesn't mean they're both equally extreme or equally moral. Soros wants to better humanity; Bannon wants to hurt humanity. So, please, stop with the lazy false equivalency.

2) Thought most would have figured out by now that shouting "Clinton! Soros" in an attempt to divert and distract attention away from Trump's involvement with Russia's subversion of the 2016 election isn't going to work. And it's definitely not going to work with Robert Mueller.

Neven

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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #1386 on: October 19, 2017, 03:52:15 PM »
It's true that just the word 'Soros' immediately lands you in conspiracy land, which makes it difficult to find objective information. One observation could be that charity and philanthropy aren't always selfless, and are done with a certain goal in mind. But maybe Soros is a 'good' oligarch, as compared to 'bad' oligarchs like the Kochs and Mercer. I happen to believe that the whole concept of oligarchy is bad, because it implies that the only choice we have, at best, is which king gets to rule us. What does that mean for 'democracy'?

But, anyway.

The thing about the Uranium deal, and that's the point I'm trying to make in every thread I participate in (wish I didn't, but can't help myself), is that if it were about Trump, the reactions would be different. If Trump would have had something to do with some deal involving Russians, who were under investigation for all kinds of corrupt stuff (extortion, kickbacks, etc), and at the same time his foundation had received tens of millions of dollars from people who also at some point were associated with the parties involved with the deal, would the reaction be the same? Here and in the media? I don't think so. It doesn't fit the mainstream/establishment narrative.

So, that's point 1: The same standards should be applied to everyone*, no matter if they're vulgar and crass, or super polite and likeable. Someone's appearance is irrelevant when he stabs you in the back.

Which brings me to point 2: It may be that there's a successful disinformation campaign to smear people like Obama and the Clintons, but isn't the reason it's so successful that there is something there? If you look at the actual policies being implemented, while these people are in power, it's staggering how they contradict the way they present themselves. Expanding (illegal) wars,  bailing out banks, promoting fracking and all of the above energy approaches, pushing trade deals, increasing surveillance, putting black men in jail, lowering taxes for the super-rich, obstructing universal health care for Big Pharma, and so on.

That's the stuff that is out there on the surface, which should be enough by itself. But then there's the stuff that gets leaked, the way these people shamelessly enrich themselves, cozy up to corporations, basking in their Roi Soleil-fame.

These people are corrupt to the bone, and I just don't get the argument that this is the best that American voters can get, and that they better put up with it, because the other alternative is even worse. This whole thinking is what enables a Trump presidency in the first place! People clearly won't put up with it, and it's going to get much, much worse if no other alternative is presented (ie successfully obstructed).

Point 3: Like Susan says, Trump is unimaginably monstrous, a horrible person. Please, believe me when I say that I'm not bringing up points 1 and 2 to defend Trump or to legitimize him. I just believe that he's part of a system, just like all the other corrupt people/politicians/CEOs, and that we need to fight ALL of that system, not just the ugly face of it.

-----

* Likewise, the standard that is being applied to Russia (which I agree to), must be applied to Saudi Arabia and Israel. The standard that is being applied to Russian meddling in American politics (which I agree to), should be applied to American meddling elsewhere. And so on.
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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #1387 on: October 19, 2017, 04:00:09 PM »
"FBI Implicates Obama & Clinton In Russia Bribery Plot"

No new reporting on this yet, except this opinion piece:
https://www.bloomberg.com/view/articles/2017-10-18/russian-money-talks-america-was-all-ears

So I checked the Hill article a little:
http://thehill.com/policy/national-security/355749-fbi-uncovered-russian-bribery-plot-before-obama-administration
Quote
The Obama administration’s decision to approve Rosatom’s purchase of Uranium One has been a source of political controversy since 2015.

That’s when conservative author Peter Schweitzer and The New York Times documented how Bill Clinton collected hundreds of thousands of dollars in Russian speaking fees and his charitable foundation collected millions in donations from parties interested in the deal while Hillary Clinton presided on the Committee on Foreign Investment in the United States.
Schweitzer (meanwhile at Breitbart) has been discredited, and the NYTimes failed at fact-checking him, as I mentioned above.
Quote
But the Justice Department and FBI took little credit in 2014 when Mikerin, the Russian financier and the trucking firm executives were arrested and charged.

The only public statement occurred a year later when the Justice Department put out a little-noticed press release in August 2015, just days before Labor Day.
That was when Mikerin pleaded guilty. I.e. the legal proceedings were not yet finished.
https://www.justice.gov/opa/pr/russian-nuclear-energy-official-pleads-guilty-money-laundering-conspiracy-involving
Reported here: https://www.occrp.org/en/daily/4359-us-russian-nuclear-official-pleads-guilty-to-money-laundering

The press took note when he was finally sentenced in December 2015:
https://www.justice.gov/opa/pr/former-russian-nuclear-energy-official-sentenced-48-months-prison-money-laundering-conspiracy
https://www.reuters.com/article/us-usa-crime-russia/u-s-sentences-russian-nuclear-official-to-four-years-for-bribe-scheme-idUSKBN0TY2V420151215
https://www.occrp.org/en/daily/4719-us-court-sentences-russian-nuclear-official-in-2-1-million-bribery-scheme

There could well be something serious. But the current state of reporting strongly suggests a rewarming of old news and Breitbart style smear to discredit Mueller and Comey: By an utterly surprising coincidence (not!)...
Quote
The connections to the current Russia case are many. The Mikerin probe began in 2009 when Robert Mueller, now the special counsel in charge of the Trump case, was still FBI director. And it ended in late 2015 under the direction of then-FBI Director James Comey, whom Trump fired earlier this year.

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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #1388 on: October 19, 2017, 04:14:08 PM »
Which brings me to point 2: It may be that there's a successful disinformation campaign to smear people like Obama and the Clintons, but isn't the reason it's so successful that there is something there? If you look at the actual policies being implemented, while these people are in power, it's staggering how they contradict the way they present themselves. Expanding (illegal) wars,  bailing out banks, promoting fracking and all of the above energy approaches, pushing trade deals, increasing surveillance, putting black men in jail, lowering taxes for the super-rich, obstructing universal health care for Big Pharma, and so on.
Nonsense, sorry. (If a disinformation campaign is successful there must be something to it? Now I won't dig out that Goebbels quote... Maybe later, I'm on the run.)

"Obstructing universal healthcare" boggles my mind. Where does this come from? Can't be smear (directly) from the right. (Methinks it was either planted by the Russians, or by rightwing undercover agents on the left, or, simply total progressive stupidity.)

One major motivation behind decades of Hillary smear is her long hard fight for universal healthcare. The Affordable Care Act under Obama was a major victory in this direction -- and he admitted it was just a small first step forward. Only now is serious debate of serious healthcare possible. (While the Trumplins want to bomb it back to stone age.)

Required watching:

(Edits done.)

(Hm, nope, just this addendum. Homework: Dig out the CSPAN video where Hillary rationalizes her vote for that GWB thing that opened the way to the last Iraq war.)
« Last Edit: October 19, 2017, 04:37:59 PM by Martin Gisser »

Neven

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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #1389 on: October 19, 2017, 04:34:07 PM »
So, is only that part of what I said nonsense? Or is everything I said nonsense? Are Obama and the Clintons etc, only looking out for the little man? Is the perception that they are in bed with Wall Street, Silicon Valley, Big Pharma, the military-industrial complex, etc, entirely the result of a successful smear campaign?
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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #1390 on: October 19, 2017, 04:54:00 PM »
All of it.
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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #1391 on: October 19, 2017, 04:56:53 PM »
Only a part. On Hillary I've recently seen other smear warmed up (she was lawering for a rapist) - which almost prompted me to dig out her pioneering legal work for children's rights...
Yes, you can blame Obama for the bank bailouts. But that's all.
The "being in bed" is 1/3 true 1/3 smear 1/3 a natural result of working in politics.
Now I gotta run. Please watch the Michael Moore video before you watch another Jimmy Dore.

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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #1392 on: October 19, 2017, 05:21:35 PM »
Please watch the Michael Moore video before you watch another Jimmy Dore.

I watched it. I'm willing to believe that Hillary Clinton was great in the past.

Here's another Michael Moore video that explains why people are so disappointed by people like Obama and Clinton:

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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #1393 on: October 19, 2017, 05:31:29 PM »
BTW, I'm going to 'unnotify' from this thread and several others, because:

a) It's sucking up too much of my time and energy, and I need it for other stuff.

and

b) Somehow I'm not succeeding in getting my points across so that people at least understand where I'm coming from, or can even acknowledge that some of them are valid. It's a good exercise for the future, but right now it frustrates me.

I'm sure the news will reach me from somewhere else if something important happens wrt Russiagate. And something better happen.
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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #1394 on: October 19, 2017, 05:34:54 PM »
Neven:

I won't address this again....because I have beat this horse to death.  You can't make QUANTUM leaps in government.  At least not in a democracy.

1). Tax policy:  Work on getting a more progressive tax system.  Doing away with the estate tax is NOT a good thing.  So spend time beating on that drum.

2). Campaign Finance:  Spend time on getting a constitutional amendment that will override the Supreme Court ruling on Citizens United.

3). Global Warming:  Dealing with global warming SOON is. SOUND FISCALLY CONSERVATIVE policy.  Fiscal conservatives (like myself) should LOVE dealing with global warming....but lobbyists now own the Republican part (which is why Citizens United needs to be overturned)

4). TIGHT new restrictions on lobbyists..... There is all kinds of restrictions that need to be put on lobbyists.

5). New campaign rules:  It amazes me that in this day and age.....every Congressman, Cabinet member, Supreme Court justice,  and presidential/vice presidential candidate still don't have to post their last 10 years of tax returns.

6). Work on getting candidates elected who actually want to reign in the vast discrepency in pay between the highest and lowest wage earners in a company.  It can (will) be done at some point in the future.

There is a LOT that can be done.  But it can't be done ALL AT ONCE.  And some of it is VERY FISCALLY CONSERVATIVE (responsible).  The names of conservative or liberal are meaningless anymore when describing parties.  The lobbyists own the Republican Party......and to a MUCH smaller degree, the Democrats.

You need to get MONEY out of elections.  Without money....the lobbyists don't have bullets. 

We have a LONG WAY to go.  But you have to eat an elephant ONE BITE at a time.  And YOU have to understand the concept of "triage".

When a group of patients hit the emergency room.....triage is done.  Those with life threatening wounds are treated FIRST.  And when a patient (like the US government) has multiple wounds.....you treat the MOST THREATENING wound first.  If you don't get the artery to stop bleeding.....working on the 10 fractured bones in his body won't matter ONE IOTA.

Right now.....we have an artery that is blown (Donnie) and that needs to be fixed FIRST..... or the rest of the problems may not matter....because democracy will be in shambles.

IF there is time to stabilize some of the other problems while we are PRIORITIZING the artery issue.....then great, work on those issues (enumerated above).  But make damn sure the artery is fixed or we're f###ed.
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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #1395 on: October 19, 2017, 06:09:57 PM »
Quote
It may be that there's a successful disinformation campaign to smear people like Obama and the Clintons, but isn't the reason it's so successful that there is something there?

Anyone who believes that Obama and the Clintons are above corruption has simply not been paying attention.

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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #1396 on: October 19, 2017, 06:29:13 PM »
With Soros from the left and Bannon from the right...

Only someone steeped in and blinded by right wing ideologywould make the claim that Soros and Bannon are two sides of the same coin.

Soros is a hedge fund manager and philanthropist who has donated billions toward his Open Society Foundation, an organization that exists to promote democracy and human rights around the globe. Bannon is the self-proclaimed leader of the alt-right, and is the darling of racists, sexists, xenophobes, and anti-Semites everywhere.

Takeaways:

1) The two men are nearly polar opposites, but that doesn't mean they're both equally extreme or equally moral. Soros wants to better humanity; Bannon wants to hurt humanity. So, please, stop with the lazy false equivalency.

2) Thought most would have figured out by now that shouting "Clinton! Soros" in an attempt to divert and distract attention away from Trump's involvement with Russia's subversion of the 2016 election isn't going to work. And it's definitely not going to work with Robert Mueller.


 Soros appeared on my radar when the "color revolutions" began popping up like wildfires after a drought. I've a personal aversion to sweeping governments into power without a ballot box in sight. Soros paints himself as of the left, which is the political side I adopted before I was old enough to vote, but my left attempts to win by bringing better ideas and better governance to the table. My left attempts to gain power through the ballot box, while his "left" attempts to gain power in spite of voter preference.


I've made exceptions over the years. Batista had to go, and Cuba is no democracy. It is however the one place I've been where the effects of good governance shine through the endemic poverty that I chose to believe is the product of American sanctions and ill will. The plight of the poor Cuban doesn't compare with the plight of a poor Mexican, or, dare I say the plight of the poor in Michigan.


If these ramblings appear as the thoughts of a right wing firebrand, your compass needs to be boxed. The fact that Soros backed Clinton doesn't exonerate Soros, it just reflects badly on Clinton. If Hannibal Lecter ate vegan 6 days a week, he'd still be known as a cannibal for the one day he ate meat. If Soros promotes get out the vote programs 6 days a week, he'll still be known as the guy who brings down governments through rioting.


Terry

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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #1397 on: October 19, 2017, 08:38:17 PM »

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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #1398 on: October 20, 2017, 12:35:21 AM »
ASLR
Your link points to a near future in which democracy is totally subverted, and evidence that this has already taken place.


Facebook and twitter seem central to this ploy, so staying far from these platforms seems wise. With Soros from the left and Bannon from the right, the color revolutions and Brexit, saying nothing of Trump's victory, may need to be seen in a new light.
Perhaps endless campaigns need to somehow be curtailed? but I've no idea how this could be done without putting the internet genii back in his bottle.


May the bot wars begin!
Terry

This is a complex issue as the genii cannot be put back in the bottle, but we can do things like:
1. OpenAI is making their AI available on an open access basis in a effort the level the playing field between powerful people like the Mercers and everyone else.
2.  We can actively work to shine light into shadowy areas where the self-serving few are taking unfair advantage (i.e. not putting our collective heads in the sand).
3. Congress will almost certainly pass some new regulations regarding social media reporting requirements.
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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #1399 on: October 20, 2017, 12:59:16 AM »
Here is an old post by JimD from the 'Empire - America and the future' thread about weaponizing propaganda:

Tell me what you think of this.

https://scout.ai/story/the-rise-of-the-weaponized-ai-propaganda-machine

Yes. Interesting article about AI propaganda and the influence of Cambridge Analytica in the 2016 elections and elsewhere.

I think that "astro-turfing" in general has already been playing a role on Internet for a while, specifically in the war-of-words about subjects like climate change and Keystone XL etc.
I don't see how otherwise (but with the help of AI) that so many blog commenters supported the fossil fuel industry and attacked scientists in such a vicious way.

In this article specifically, they do outline how AI systems/models can profile everyone individually, which could take (or has already taken) AI propaganda to a different level.

Yet I don't quite understand how AI can change users opinions at the individual level.
The article mentions this :

Quote
For Analytica, the feedback is instant and the response automated: Did this specific swing voter in Pennsylvania click on the ad attacking Clinton’s negligence over her email server? Yes? Serve her more content that emphasizes failures of personal responsibility. No? The automated script will try a different headline, perhaps one that plays on a different personality trait -- say the voter’s tendency to be agreeable toward authority figures. Perhaps: “Top Intelligence Officials Agree: Clinton’s Emails Jeopardized National Security.”

Much of this is done through Facebook dark posts, which are only visible to those being targeted.

Quote
In the weeks leading up to a final vote, a campaign could launch a $10-100 million dark post campaign targeting just a few million voters in swing districts and no one would know.
Do you know what these "Facebook dark posts" are and how they work ?

First, I note that AI is just a new tool to an old propaganda issue of reconditioning lazy minds to do what self-serving individuals (whether Nazis or Wall Street or Communists etc) want the lazy minds to do/think.

Second, as far as what "Facebook dark posts" are, see the following article entitled "Shedding Light on Facebook Dark Posts'":

https://sproutsocial.com/insights/facebook-dark-posts/

Extract: "Facebook dark posts are News Feed style ads that don’t publish to your Timeline or in your fans’ feeds organically. A dark post doesn’t have to just be a status update; currently, Facebook supports status updates, photos, videos, links or an Offer
...
You can get hyper-targeted. With the ability to create as many ads as you want without spamming your followers, you can create hyper-targeted ads for every segment.

2.You can do A/B testing. For example, you might change the image, headline, body copy or call-to-action button, or change several of these components for more variety. Use this to determine which variations have the highest click-through rates. The higher the CTR, the more money you’ll save on cost-per-click campaigns.

3.You guide your organic traffic better. Because you can see if certain images or headlines work better, A/B testing enables you to use paid social ads to guide your organic social strategy. Once you’ve determined which combinations perform the best, apply them to your organic posts for better reach and engagement.

4.You avoid ad-only streams. Ad-only Facebook streams are not only aggressive, but they tend to push away your audience. Facebook dark posts are niche and hyper-sensitive so you don’t blast the same CTAs to everyone through your feed."

If you are a normal business person Facebook dark posts are not necessarily sinister, but if you are a Russia oligarch helping your friend Putin, then maybe they can be sinister.
“It is not the strongest or the most intelligent who will survive but those who can best manage change.”
― Leon C. Megginson