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AbruptSLR

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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #1600 on: November 03, 2017, 07:08:38 PM »
Trump's House GOP buddies are trying to throw 'shade' on Mueller.  To me this makes the GOP look complicit in a coordinated Russiagate cover-up: 

Title: "Conservatives introduce measure demanding Mueller’s resignation"

https://www.politico.com/story/2017/11/03/house-republicans-robert-mueller-resignation-244517

Extract: "Three House Republicans on Friday moved to pressure special counsel Robert Mueller to resign over what they contend are “obvious conflicts of interest,” the latest instance of rising GOP resistance to his Russia probe.

Reps. Matt Gaetz (R-Fla.), Andy Biggs (R-Ariz.) and Louie Gohmert (R-Texas), introduced a measure that, while nonbinding, would put the House on record describing Mueller, a former FBI director, as unfit to lead the probe because of his relationship with James Comey, his successor at the bureau."
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Rob Dekker

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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #1601 on: November 04, 2017, 04:07:40 AM »
Republican calls for Mueller's resignation coincide with calls for Jeff Sessions' resignation because he quite clearly lied under oath about the Trump campaign's contacts with the Russians :

http://thehill.com/homenews/house/358737-dem-lawmaker-sessions-absolutely-committed-perjury-and-should-resign

The closer to the fire, the hotter it gets...
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Rob Dekker

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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #1602 on: November 04, 2017, 05:49:13 AM »
Manafort previously was the manager for Ukraine's Yanukovych campaign, where he successfully managed to "lock her up" (rival Yulia Tymoshenko).

Even though Trump did not manage to "lock her up" yet, he did campaign on it under Manafort's direction. I seriously hope that we don't have to take to the streets by the millions (and hundreds get shot) as they did in Ukraine during the EuroMaidan to get rid of a corrupt presidency....

But the similarities so far are striking.

The difference is that we have Mueller.
« Last Edit: November 04, 2017, 06:57:50 AM by Rob Dekker »
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Jim Pettit

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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #1603 on: November 04, 2017, 01:47:02 PM »
Republican calls for Mueller's resignation coincide with calls for Jeff Sessions' resignation because he quite clearly lied under oath about the Trump campaign's contacts with the Russians :

http://thehill.com/homenews/house/358737-dem-lawmaker-sessions-absolutely-committed-perjury-and-should-resign

The closer to the fire, the hotter it gets...

The prediction is, as has been pointed out by people more knowledgeable than me, that Trump will almost certainly fire Sessions, or ask for his resignation. When that happens, the thought goes, Trump will select an acting AG, and that person--who will have NOT recused him- or herself from the Russia investigation, will fire Mueller.

Constitutional crisis in 3...2...1...

AbruptSLR

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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #1604 on: November 04, 2017, 03:12:59 PM »
Republican calls for Mueller's resignation coincide with calls for Jeff Sessions' resignation because he quite clearly lied under oath about the Trump campaign's contacts with the Russians :

http://thehill.com/homenews/house/358737-dem-lawmaker-sessions-absolutely-committed-perjury-and-should-resign

The closer to the fire, the hotter it gets...

The prediction is, as has been pointed out by people more knowledgeable than me, that Trump will almost certainly fire Sessions, or ask for his resignation. When that happens, the thought goes, Trump will select an acting AG, and that person--who will have NOT recused him- or herself from the Russia investigation, will fire Mueller.

Constitutional crisis in 3...2...1...

Do forget that if Trump can get his co-conspirators (like Carter Page) to set-up Sessions to be arrested by Mueller, then Trump could then appoint a new acting AG to do his dirty work.

http://www.cnn.com/2017/11/02/politics/carter-page-testimony-russia-trip/index.html
« Last Edit: November 05, 2017, 09:58:44 AM by AbruptSLR »
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Buddy

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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #1605 on: November 04, 2017, 07:33:24 PM »
Where do we stand now?  IMHO.....we're getting much closer to "the meat" of the action:

1). Clear to anyone looking at ALL the dots...that they are connecting.  And there are a LOT of dots.

2). Donnie can NOT afford to have Mueller finish his investigation.  I said this from day one..and still maintain that...only I have MORE conviction now that some of the dots I knew were out there (Felix Sater, 666 building, money laundering)....have filled in.

3). Donnie continues to push North Korea.  As I stated before...he needs a war...and Korea is now in "the lead" to provide that.

4). Jeff Sessions has lasted several more months than I thought he would...same for Tillerson.  Both are on borrowed time.

5). Next steps:  (A) Have to complete his Asian tour to make it look like he actually wants peace...or at least a "liveable standoff".  He doesn't.  A liveable standoff does nothing for his poll numbers. (B) The oxygen masked has dropped from above for Jeff...and he is almost out of oxygen.  He has to go...so he can be replaced by someone who will fire Mueller (C) it will be interesting to see the timing of Sessions and Tillerson.  Who goes first?  My guess is Tillerson.  Once Tillerson is out...then he can move on to Sessions.  But time is running out as the noose tightens.

I would be watching to see how long a meeting that Trump has with Putin...and who is in on the US side.  If Donnie relies on the Russian interpreter AGAIN....Houston, we have a problem. 😳

There are several US House of Reps that will be taken down ...as well as some on the Senate side (hi Mitch)...plus the RNC (Republican National Committee...plus a boatload of others you all know about.

On OUR SIDE....we have John McCain, Bob Corker, Jeff Flake, and General Mattis.

Those FOUR are KEY...and while NOT an absolute firewall...they can certainly make things tougher for sociopath Donald.  But Donald LITERALLY has the nuclear football.  If he calls for the Hail Mary...some security guy better have big balls and fast feet to get away from him.

We continue to plow through uncharted waters...


« Last Edit: November 06, 2017, 04:49:35 AM by Buddy »
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TerryM

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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #1606 on: November 04, 2017, 07:37:44 PM »
The reporter who broke the Iran-Contra affair shares his view of Russia-Gate.


https://consortiumnews.com/2017/10/31/sorting-out-the-russia-mess/


He names "the professor", and links to his recollections of the events, and he touches on the evidence that at least one of Wikileaks files was transferred by thumb drive, not an internet connection.


Some of the comments are crap, some deserve attention.
Terry

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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #1607 on: November 04, 2017, 07:54:12 PM »

4). Jeff Sessions has lasted several more months than I thought he would...same for Tillerson.  Both are on borrowed time.

5). Next steps:  (A) Have to complete his Asian tour to make it look like he actually wants peace...or at least a "livesble standoff".  He doesn't.  A lives le standoff does nothing for his poll numbers. (B) The oxygen masked has dropped from above for Jeff...and he is almost out of oxygen.  He has to go...so he can be replaced by someone who will fire Mueller (C) it will be interesting to see the timing of Sessions and Tillerson.  Who goes first?  My guess is Tillerson. Once Tillerson is out...then he can move on to Sessions.  But time is running out as the noose tightens.



On OUR SIDE....we have John McCain, Bob Corker, Jeff Flake, and General Mattis.



Buddy
John McCain was never on my side, never. I've always despised that war mongering POS, and apparently most voting Americans agreed with me.


Hadn't you written that Tillerson's Russian connections, and Trump's appointment of him, was part of the proof that Trump was in Putin's pocket? How do you square that with your present stance?


Terry

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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #1608 on: November 05, 2017, 05:44:46 AM »
Since "Podesta" seems to be a conjuring word for some here, dropping this as a PSA here.  My position on the Russia investigation: anyone, Republican, Democrat, or whatever stripe, found to have colluded with Russia or worthy of indictment should face the music and any consequences.

Mueller probe draws in Tony Podesta, Vin Weber: AP

https://www.cbsnews.com/amp/news/mueller-probe-draws-in-tony-podesta-vin-weber-ap/

AbruptSLR

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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #1609 on: November 05, 2017, 07:34:36 PM »
The linked CBS article notes that an inner-circle White House source suspects that Mueller will next indict some or all of the following: Michael Flynn, Michael Flynn, Jr., Felix Sater, Carter Page, Sam Clovis, Michael Cohen, and/or Jared Kushner:

Title: "Source who is being examined by special counsel: "It's every man for himself""

https://www.cbsnews.com/news/source-who-is-being-examined-by-special-counsel-its-every-man-for-himself/

Extract: "Among the names the source mentioned were former National Security Adviser Michael Flynn; his son, Michael Flynn Jr.; Felix Sater, a former Trump business associate; Carter Page – a former foreign policy adviser for the campaign; Sam Clovis a former top campaign official; Michael Cohen, Trump's personal attorney; and Jared Kushner who is the president's son-in-law and one of his top advisers."
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AbruptSLR

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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #1610 on: November 05, 2017, 07:42:32 PM »
NBC news indicate that three sources believe that Mueller now has enough evidence to indict both Michael Flynn and his son:

Title: "Mueller Has Enough Evidence to Bring Charges in Flynn Investigation"

https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/mueller-has-enough-evidence-bring-charges-flynn-investigation-n817666

Extract: "Federal investigators have gathered enough evidence to bring charges in their investigation of President Donald Trump's former national security adviser and his son as part of the probe into Russia's intervention in the 2016 election, according to multiple sources familiar with the investigation."
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Buddy

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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #1611 on: November 05, 2017, 09:20:17 PM »
Looks like Wilbur Ross has previously undisclosed business relations with a Russian oligarch....and another Russian who is likely no more than a coffee boy: Vladimir Putin's son in law. 😳

Next thing you know.....they will discover that Wilbur has been helping Russians to launder money from Wilburs bank in Cyprus. 😱

The international network of oligarch's, Russian mobsters, bankers, Donnie's administration, and others is going to get pretty messy and complicated over the coming weeks.
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Rob Dekker

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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #1612 on: November 06, 2017, 05:45:52 AM »
The reporter who broke the Iran-Contra affair shares his view of Russia-Gate.

https://consortiumnews.com/2017/10/31/sorting-out-the-russia-mess/


Almost every sentence in that article requires a comment and a context discussion.

Before going there, let me just note that Robert Parry has an AWEFUL record of pushing mis-information and dis-information and being extremely pro-Russian. His MH17 articles, when he was pushing Russian lies through his 'consortiumnews' site, made me nauseous.

And he did not "broke the Iran-Contra affair ". He only posted a detail in that scandal, pertaining to a CIA manual provided to the Nicaraguan contras.
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Rob Dekker

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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #1613 on: November 06, 2017, 06:21:38 AM »
Looks like Wilbur Ross has previously undisclosed business relations with a Russian oligarch....and another Russian who is likely no more than a coffee boy: Vladimir Putin's son in law. 😳

Wilbur Ross (Secretary of Commerce) has so far been out of the spotlight, but his business ties to Putin's oligarchs is reason for Blumenthal to ask for a separate investigation :



https://www.nytimes.com/2017/11/05/world/wilbur-ross-russia.html?_r=0

It looks like it is hard to find a Trump associate that has NO ties to the Putin's Russian mafia.
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TerryM

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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #1614 on: November 06, 2017, 11:09:36 AM »
A respected journalist speaks truth to twitter. Three falsehoods about Donna Brazile's revelations and one about Wikileaks.


https://theintercept.com/2017/11/05/four-viral-claims-spread-by-journalists-on-twitter-in-the-last-week-alone-that-are-false/?comments=1#comments


Could twitter have been used to deceive?
Terry

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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #1615 on: November 06, 2017, 11:40:15 AM »
So will the next round of indictments be this week or next week?  You can cut the air with a knife there is so much tension.

Do we get a Flynn indictment first...and another sealed indictment which would be magically opened when Kushner gets back?  I think Kushner is expected back from Asia trip before Donnie gets back.

Who is Mueller going to indict next and when?  The suspense is killing me.🤔🤔🤔
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TerryM

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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #1616 on: November 06, 2017, 10:10:38 PM »
Another Saudi Prince bites the dust sand. This time with direct links to Hariri, the Lebanese PM who so recently resigned his position while visiting Saudi Arabia.


http://theduran.com/saudi-prince-abdul-aziz-dies-arrest/


and


https://www.almasdarnews.com/article/saudi-prince-gunned-resisting-arrest/


Two Saudi Princes in 24 hours.




Mean while, just a few countries over the Isolated, Evil, Russian, Putin, has put the finishing swirls on a document pledging a $30Billion investment in the Iranian energy sector. The Age of Oil may be over, but somebody forgot to tell the Saudis, Iran and Russia. The Saudi's are painting the desert in Regal Blood Lines, Iran and Russia in Oil and Gas Pipe Lines.


https://orientalreview.org/2017/11/04/russias-iranian-energy-deal-killed-four-birds-with-one-stone/


Western investors may have missed the boat, but Rosneft, having plugged the leak, sails away with valuable goodies. The India, Pakistan, Iranian pipeline will give both importing nations a reason to try to get along, and to get along without more coal. Surely a win - win situation.


Terry

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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #1617 on: November 06, 2017, 11:34:06 PM »
I would SURE hate to be someone in the administration.....hoping that Donnie is going to pardon me....only to find out that the New York State AG is going to bring SOME state charges against Donnie FIRST. 🙀

The state AG doesn't have to bring ALL the state charges at once.  Only the ones they have enough proof on first.  Then....if Donnie is impeached BEFORE charges on some of those in the admin...they are SCREWED.  An impeached president isn't going to be handing out pardons.

Now....clearly Mueller will need SOME folks to help...like Papadapolous...but he doesn't need all of them.

They are playing a risky game of "Russian Roulette" if they think they will get pardoned.  Maybe they will...maybe they won't. 😳
« Last Edit: November 07, 2017, 02:46:43 AM by Buddy »
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Rob Dekker

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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #1618 on: November 07, 2017, 03:14:23 AM »
Putin plays a card in this game :

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2017-11-06/trump-jr-said-anti-russia-law-may-be-reviewed-moscow-lawyer-says

and with that he throws Donald Jr under the bus, and tightens his grip on Trump's balls.

There is now no doubt in my mind that the June 2016 meeting in Trump tower was taped. Not by Obama, but by Putin. It was a set-up to obtain leverage.
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TerryM

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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #1619 on: November 07, 2017, 07:13:46 AM »
Putin plays a card in this game :

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2017-11-06/trump-jr-said-anti-russia-law-may-be-reviewed-moscow-lawyer-says

and with that he throws Donald Jr under the bus, and tightens his grip on Trump's balls.

There is now no doubt in my mind that the June 2016 meeting in Trump tower was taped. Not by Obama, but by Putin. It was a set-up to obtain leverage.
I dare say anyone familiar with the history of American Presidents who "taped" their guests, would assume that the worlds other leaders might act in a similar boorish manner.
My personal favorite was LBJ tasking Hoover with scanning the white house insiders for evidence of homosexual tendencies.
Terry

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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #1620 on: November 07, 2017, 07:40:49 AM »
There is now no doubt in my mind that the June 2016 meeting in Trump tower was taped. Not by Obama, but by Putin. It was a set-up to obtain leverage.
I dare say anyone familiar with the history of American Presidents who "taped" their guests, would assume that the worlds other leaders might act in a similar boorish manner.

Putin is not an "American President", Terry, and neither was there a "guest".
This taping of the June 2016 meeting at Trump Tower by the Russians is much more interesting.
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crandles

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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #1621 on: November 07, 2017, 02:57:30 PM »
Putin plays a card in this game :

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2017-11-06/trump-jr-said-anti-russia-law-may-be-reviewed-moscow-lawyer-says

and with that he throws Donald Jr under the bus,

Quote
“Looking ahead, if we come to power, we can return to this issue and think what to do about it,’’ Trump Jr. said of the 2012 law, she recalled. “I understand our side may have messed up, but it’ll take a long time to get to the bottom of it,” he added, according to her.

Does this sound like code for I'll do a deal if you have the dirt I want?

Personally, I think it sounds more like 'in future we will think about it' in other words 'we will do what we want not what you want' or 'I am not going to do a deal with you'.

So far from throwing under bus, it sounds like continue to try to remove pressure from Trump which might be what we would expect and fairly useless.

But it is quite possible that I am completely misreading situation.

AbruptSLR

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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #1622 on: November 07, 2017, 06:42:26 PM »
Carter Page seems to be digging a deeper hole for both himself and for Team Trump:

Title: "Carter Page’s testimony is crazy, and big trouble for Trump camp"

https://www.salon.com/2017/11/07/carter-pages-testimony-is-crazy-and-big-trouble-for-trump-camp/

Extract: "The former Trump adviser got caught more than a few times on inconsistencies in his testimony"
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AbruptSLR

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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #1623 on: November 07, 2017, 08:23:30 PM »
The Palmer Report speculates that based on the filing of 11 new sealed indictments submitted for review to the US Federal Court in Washington DC, that five more suspects, in addition to Manafort, Gates, Papadopoulos and Flynn (who is covered by a grand jury in Virginia), will soon be added to those who will soon be charged by Mueller, in Russiagate.

See also the associated article entitled "Trump-Russia scandal: several new indictments emerge from Robert Mueller’s favorite court":

http://www.palmerreport.com/politics/new-indictments/5934/
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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #1624 on: November 07, 2017, 09:18:28 PM »
Amazing. zerohedge is disliked, but palmerreport is ok ?

sidd

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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #1625 on: November 07, 2017, 09:24:00 PM »
Amazing. zerohedge is disliked, but palmerreport is ok ?

sidd

I agree they're quite similar. I can't read the kind of breathless style on Palmer Report for very long. Zerohedge seems better, to me at least, at dishing out every which way, reducing double standards. Palmer Report only goes one way, and I guess is the Left's answer to the Right's alternative reality (Glenn Beck, etc).

Either way, I find that referencing these kinds of sites weakens any argument one may have. If the argument is strong, there should be better references one can use.
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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #1626 on: November 07, 2017, 09:27:22 PM »
Putin plays a card in this game :

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2017-11-06/trump-jr-said-anti-russia-law-may-be-reviewed-moscow-lawyer-says

and with that he throws Donald Jr under the bus,

Quote
“Looking ahead, if we come to power, we can return to this issue and think what to do about it,’’ Trump Jr. said of the 2012 law, she recalled. “I understand our side may have messed up, but it’ll take a long time to get to the bottom of it,” he added, according to her.

Does this sound like code for I'll do a deal if you have the dirt I want?

Personally, I think it sounds more like 'in future we will think about it' in other words 'we will do what we want not what you want' or 'I am not going to do a deal with you'.

So far from throwing under bus, it sounds like continue to try to remove pressure from Trump which might be what we would expect and fairly useless.

But it is quite possible that I am completely misreading situation.


I'd have difficulty reading it any other way.


Jr. is plainly stating that now (during the campaign) is not the time to address the issue, and also indicates that a future Trump administration would look into the situation following the campaign, rather than taking sides at this time. (during the campaign)


The fact that Jr. left early, while Manafort snored in the corner underlines that this was indeed a very unsuccessful meeting. Whatever the lady was trying to sell, the campaign, as represented by Trump Jr., was unwilling to buy.


Terry

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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #1627 on: November 07, 2017, 09:27:52 PM »
Amazing. zerohedge is disliked, but palmerreport is ok ?

sidd

Not in my book; I've openly chastised both. I've got no room for purveyors of CT on either side of the spectrum, including "liberals" such as Louise Mensch, Eric Garland, Leah McElrath, Claude Taylor, Seth Abramson, or whats-her-name Chalupa. After all, a foil hat is a foil hat whether it's blood red or midnight blue, and once a particular person has been outed as a professional liar, they fall off of my reading list.

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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #1628 on: November 07, 2017, 09:45:32 PM »
The fact that Jr. left early, while Manafort snored in the corner underlines that this was indeed a very unsuccessful meeting. Whatever the lady was trying to sell, the campaign, as represented by Trump Jr., was unwilling to buy.

Of course, it matters not one bit whether the meeting was "successful"; the crime was in the acceptance and the setup. TrumpCo thought they were going to get some juicy dirt on Clinton, period. Even if the Russians really did pull a bait and switch, that doesn't absolve the Tangerine Vichy and his offspring. Ask Mueller; he'll tell you.

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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #1629 on: November 07, 2017, 10:05:59 PM »
Amazing. zerohedge is disliked, but palmerreport is ok ?

sidd

Feel free to ignore any stray Palmer Report article that I might post from time to time.  Whether you read them or not will not change the out-come of Russiagate ;)
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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #1630 on: November 08, 2017, 12:11:24 AM »
Looks like Donnie has one more state attorney general to worry about next year.  The Democrats are likely to win the New Jersey governors race tonight...and in New Jersey, the governor appoints the attorney general.

And it just so happens....that Donnie played a LOT of golf at his Bedminister golf club both during the campaign.. and afterwards.  He spent a LOT of time there.  I hope he wasn't doing any "laundry". 😳

Now Donnie and his kids have two AG's to worry about.

If you're wondering about Florida....in Florida, it is an elected position, and the next election is in November of 2018.  Pam Bondi....who Donnie has already paid off...is term limited and can not run again.  Also....Rick Scott...the most corrupt governor in the US...is also term limited for Governor. 

In Florida....we want BOTH the AG and the governor to be Democrat in 2018...so Donnie wouldn't be able to be pardoned by the governor.

« Last Edit: November 08, 2017, 12:21:19 AM by Buddy »
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TerryM

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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #1631 on: November 08, 2017, 01:55:33 AM »
The fact that Jr. left early, while Manafort snored in the corner underlines that this was indeed a very unsuccessful meeting. Whatever the lady was trying to sell, the campaign, as represented by Trump Jr., was unwilling to buy.

Of course, it matters not one bit whether the meeting was "successful"; the crime was in the acceptance and the setup. TrumpCo thought they were going to get some juicy dirt on Clinton, period. Even if the Russians really did pull a bait and switch, that doesn't absolve the Tangerine Vichy and his offspring. Ask Mueller; he'll tell you.


But there was no "acceptance", Jr. was possibly set up, but he said no, and left her hanging.
Terry

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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #1632 on: November 08, 2017, 02:41:48 AM »
Virginia governorship stays Democrat.....and the AG is also a Democrat.

If Dems take Florida AG and governorship in 2018....Moron Don is in deep shit.  VERY DEEP. 🙀
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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #1633 on: November 08, 2017, 03:32:04 AM »
NJ went Dem, too.
"A force de chercher de bonnes raisons, on en trouve; on les dit; et après on y tient, non pas tant parce qu'elles sont bonnes que pour ne pas se démentir." Choderlos de Laclos "You struggle to come up with some valid reasons, then cling to them, not because they're good, but just to not back down."

Rob Dekker

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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #1634 on: November 08, 2017, 03:37:59 AM »
Amazing. zerohedge is disliked, but palmerreport is ok ?

sidd

Feel free to ignore any stray Palmer Report article that I might post from time to time.  Whether you read them or not will not change the out-come of Russiagate ;)

I actually found that Palmer Report very useful and informative, and I'm glad you posted it !
I had no idea that so many sealed indictments were filed.

And it seems that more sealed indictments were added in the past few days.

In fact, the number now stands at a whopping 17 sealed indictments filed in DC's U.S. District Court:

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1-y7R63vrNR82QONXB8KodSHSXg_IvveR/view

As Palmer Report already noted; we don't know if these indictments have something to do with Mueller investigation, although the unusually high number of them suggest it does.

And if they do then something very big is brewing...
« Last Edit: November 08, 2017, 04:19:06 AM by Rob Dekker »
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Rob Dekker

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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #1635 on: November 08, 2017, 04:26:43 AM »
Quote
“Looking ahead, if we come to power, we can return to this issue and think what to do about it,’’ Trump Jr. said of the 2012 law, she recalled. “I understand our side may have messed up, but it’ll take a long time to get to the bottom of it,” he added, according to her.

Does this sound like code for I'll do a deal if you have the dirt I want?

Personally, I think it sounds more like 'in future we will think about it' in other words 'we will do what we want not what you want' or 'I am not going to do a deal with you'.

So far from throwing under bus, it sounds like continue to try to remove pressure from Trump which might be what we would expect and fairly useless.

But it is quite possible that I am completely misreading situation.

You may be right, but there are three issues with that :

1) Why would Donald Jr. mention this AT ALL ? Especially since according to both sides, the Russians came up empty handed in this meeting.

2) If the Trump campaign wanted to offer something in return for obtaining "dirt on Hillary", how else but this statement by Donald Jr. would they word that in the meeting ?

3) If there was nothing of importance in this meeting, why does the Trump team keep on lying about it ? To the point where Donald Trump himself (while in Air Force One) even drafted a lie for Donald Jr. to suggest that the meeting was just about "the adoption of Russian children".
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crandles

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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #1636 on: November 08, 2017, 11:52:53 AM »

Of course, it matters not one bit whether the meeting was "successful"; the crime was in the acceptance and the setup. TrumpCo thought they were going to get some juicy dirt on Clinton, period. Even if the Russians really did pull a bait and switch, that doesn't absolve the Tangerine Vichy and his offspring. Ask Mueller; he'll tell you.

What is wrong with research on opposition? Doing a deal is wrong, but setting up a meeting for research on opposition and then refusing to do a deal?

there are three issues with that :

1) Why would Donald Jr. mention this AT ALL ? Especially since according to both sides, the Russians came up empty handed in this meeting.

2) If the Trump campaign wanted to offer something in return for obtaining "dirt on Hillary", how else but this statement by Donald Jr. would they word that in the meeting ?

3) If there was nothing of importance in this meeting, why does the Trump team keep on lying about it ? To the point where Donald Trump himself (while in Air Force One) even drafted a lie for Donald Jr. to suggest that the meeting was just about "the adoption of Russian children".

1) He is being criticised for not revealing links and contacts, now you want to criticise him for mentioning a meeting that came to nothing? Come on which way is it?

2) I agree those words could have been used in different contexts:

If Natalia Veselnitskaya brought it up then Jr has to make some reply and those words are not encouraging.
Alternatively, if Jr said them out of the blue, then it could well mean, we are not giving you this for nothing but it could be on the table for negotiation.
If Natalia had indicated she wanted to hear what was on offer, then it is on the table but could be tricky and take time.

3) Yes, there are several suspicious things. FWIW Manafort appeared asleep also sounds strange to me.


With  "it sounds like continue to try to remove pressure from Trump which might be what we would expect and fairly useless." I was saying that what Natalia Veselnitskaya was saying did not appear to be good evidence against Trumps. However, that doesn't mean it is good evidence for Trumps as what she is saying is not necessarily true.




Jim Pettit

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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #1637 on: November 08, 2017, 12:53:11 PM »
What is wrong with research on opposition? Doing a deal is wrong, but setting up a meeting for research on opposition and then refusing to do a deal?

Of course there's nothing wrong, or even newsworthy, with doing oppo research. There *is*, however, something wrong with the highest members of a campaign happily agreeing to meet with representatives of a hostile foreign power to gather ill-gotten dirt on that opponent in exchange for a promise to change existing policy to benefit that foreign entity once in office, and there's *much* wrong with repeatedly lying about the purpose and the participants of that meeting in an attempt to stymie one or more investigations. (The latter is called "Obstruction of Justice".)

At any rate, had the Veselnitskaya meeting been a one-off event, we'd likely have forgotten about it by now, or written it off as bad freshman judgment. However, given that it fits neatly into an increasingly large pattern of TrumpCo's deep financial entanglements with Putin's Russia, entanglements the campaign and the administration have consistently tried to obfuscate, that meeting can't and won't be ignored.

The Trump administration is a dead man walking, especially after last night's East Coast bloodbath proved once and for all that the Moron In Chief has no coattails.

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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #1638 on: November 08, 2017, 01:17:30 PM »
The election last night will no doubt give a lift to the Democrat's.  What will be interesting to me is the effect that the elections may have on RussiaGate:

What will the effect be on those who will be running for office in 2018?  Is it going to push them a little further away from Donnie...and more towards pushing the RussiaGate investigation through to its conclusion?

Will the election last night cause some to leave the Trump fold altogether?  Polls are one thing...but reality happens when the election occurs.  Some of those in office now.....understand with more clarity that if Moron Don's numbers remain low....or go lower....they could be in REAL trouble come November of 2018.

I will continue to watch Donnie's poll numbers in coming months.  If they continue to drift lower as I suspect they will....politicians will continue to drift away from Donnie.  And voters may take a harder look at the information as RussiaGate continues to reveal Donnie's lies...and reveal Russia's interference with our elections.
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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #1639 on: November 08, 2017, 03:36:59 PM »
RussiaGate isn't even covered on FOX and Idiots.  My guess is...that will change in coming weeks/months as Donnie's kids and son-in-law get their Christmas/Easter gifts from Mueller.  There won't be coal in those stockings....that is for sure. 😳
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SteveMDFP

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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #1640 on: November 08, 2017, 03:47:45 PM »
What is wrong with research on opposition? Doing a deal is wrong, but setting up a meeting for research on opposition and then refusing to do a deal?

Of course there's nothing wrong, or even newsworthy, with doing oppo research. There *is*, however, something wrong with the highest members of a campaign happily agreeing to meet with representatives of a hostile foreign power to gather ill-gotten dirt on that opponent in exchange for a promise to change existing policy to benefit that foreign entity once in office, and there's *much* wrong with repeatedly lying about the purpose and the participants of that meeting in an attempt to stymie one or more investigations. (The latter is called "Obstruction of Justice".)

At any rate, had the Veselnitskaya meeting been a one-off event, we'd likely have forgotten about it by now, or written it off as bad freshman judgment. However, given that it fits neatly into an increasingly large pattern of TrumpCo's deep financial entanglements with Putin's Russia, entanglements the campaign and the administration have consistently tried to obfuscate, that meeting can't and won't be ignored.

The Trump administration is a dead man walking, especially after last night's East Coast bloodbath proved once and for all that the Moron In Chief has no coattails.
Exactly.  A campaign can certainly engage in opposition research, even hire a foreign national to do so.  But accepting opposition research from a foreign source violates campaign finance law, as such information is "a thing of value."

Beyond this, when a campaign seeks to acquire such a foreign-source "thing of value" then a criminal conspiracy to commit campaign finance violations is *already* committed.  No actual act of receiving such a thing is necessary for a felony to be committed by conspiracy.

Beyond this, for a campaign to agree to merely *consider* changing a policy as a consequence of receiving a foreign-source "thing  of value" is criminal corruption.  When two or more in a campaign merely seek to secure such an arrangement, then a criminal conspiracy exists.  This is so even if no arrangement is ultimately entered into.

We don't know exactly what was said in the Trump Tower meeting with the Russians.  We don't know what kind of e-mail follow-up was exchanged.  But it seems clear that there's already probable cause in the publicly available information that a criminal conspiracy was in existence.

Since Mueller surely has the e-mail follow-up, I'm fairly certain there will be one or more indictments in this matter.  I anticipate a Presidential pardon before conviction, however.

Susan Anderson

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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #1641 on: November 08, 2017, 04:45:18 PM »
Those celebrating east coast Democratic victories should not think that signifies too much. Maine Medicaid expansion was an excellent result. Four safe Republican House of Representatives seats stayed safe. Utah: Republican 57.6% Democrat 27.1% and NJ should have been a landslide but wasn't. If Roy Moore is defeated in Alabama that will be something. I think the moderate-progressive infighting is not helping, on both sides, and am torn by it. As an old fashioned liberal I keep close to my mind and heart all progressive principles and ideals but more than anything I want those monsters out, and quickly, as they do daily harm, much of which is not visible (local authorities, judges, etc.). While Donna Brazile goes on a triumphal book tour, the dirty laundry on the Dem side supports ongoing attacks and implies that you might as well have Trumpians as insider Democrats, which is simply not true.
« Last Edit: November 08, 2017, 04:51:32 PM by Susan Anderson »

AbruptSLR

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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #1642 on: November 08, 2017, 04:57:27 PM »
Who knows what evil lurks in the hearts of men?  Apparently, Scribbler knows about the Trump Campaign's collusion in Russiagate, and the picture that he paints is not pretty:

Title: "Russian Collusion: Kushner-Associated Corp Linked to Oil Giant Gazprom in Gaining Monetary Leverage Over Facebook and Twitter"

https://robertscribbler.com/2017/11/07/russian-collusion-kushner-associated-corp-linked-to-oil-giant-gazprom-in-gaining-monetary-leverage-over-facebook-and-twitter/

Extract: "Evidence of harmful collusion and conflict of interest damaging to the United States related to the Trump Campaign and its associates has now grown beyond the scope of any of our deepest fears.

And it is here that we come, at last, to new allegations based on a German news dump known as the Paradise Papers. The dump, which includes a mass of documents describing the shady dealings involved in the world’s off-shore tax havens, has created a media firestorm. It has also revealed yet more ties between top Trump campaign and administration officials and Russia. Ties related to increasing evidence of Trump-Russia linked attempts to influence U.S. media, corporations and their holders during the period leading up to and including the 2016 election."
« Last Edit: November 08, 2017, 05:03:34 PM by AbruptSLR »
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Buddy

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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #1643 on: November 09, 2017, 12:29:38 AM »
Next week looks to have the potential to be CRAZY.  Donnie gets back...and apparently there are indictments waiting for some folks. 😳

I think Donnie is going to snap at some point.😤  When he snaps...Jeff Sessions is likely to get a call...and then holy hell could break out.  Either way...next week looks to be crazy.😜
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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #1644 on: November 09, 2017, 12:45:49 AM »
RussiaGate isn't even covered on FOX and Idiots.  My guess is...that will change in coming weeks/months as Donnie's kids and son-in-law get their Christmas/Easter gifts from Mueller.  There won't be coal in those stockings....that is for sure. 😳
In light of what Susan said and the rather stable Trump poll numbers: Are the numberz correlated to the news station market share?

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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #1645 on: November 09, 2017, 12:49:25 AM »
Those celebrating east coast Democratic victories should not think that signifies too much. Maine Medicaid expansion was an excellent result. Four safe Republican House of Representatives seats stayed safe. Utah: Republican 57.6% Democrat 27.1% and NJ should have been a landslide but wasn't. If Roy Moore is defeated in Alabama that will be something. I think the moderate-progressive infighting is not helping, on both sides, and am torn by it. As an old fashioned liberal I keep close to my mind and heart all progressive principles and ideals but more than anything I want those monsters out, and quickly, as they do daily harm, much of which is not visible (local authorities, judges, etc.). While Donna Brazile goes on a triumphal book tour, the dirty laundry on the Dem side supports ongoing attacks and implies that you might as well have Trumpians as insider Democrats, which is simply not true.
I believe it's important for Democrats to celebrate this rare win, and for us to try to extract enough knowledge from it to assure future victories.


We seem to have elected Democrats of every stripe and persuasion, which may indicate that this was more a backlash against Trump, or the Republicans, than the sudden embrace of the democratic values we hold dear.
If this is so we shouldn't rest on our fresh bower of laurels, but get back to work and discover how we can improve our candidates and our party, to the point that we can win elections, even when our opponents are not shooting themselves in the foot at every opportunity.


In the excerpts from Brazile's book that I've read so far, the campaign that lost to Trump's high tech juggernaut seemed quite capable of losing again, with or without outside interference. Regardless of whether we believe that the Evil Russkies had a measurable effect on the outcome, we should act, going forward, as if it was actually a contest between ourselves and Trump's Republicans, and therefore a contest in which our actions will have an effect on the results.


Brazile speaks of unfair primaries, due in part to the DNC's squandering of donations on contract experts during off election years.
Is the DNC's spending out of control at this time?
Are we paying for consultants that we don't need, and can't afford?


We hired an outside firm to determine who leaked or hacked our computers. Why? The FBI typically handles this type of thing at no charge. If they're still under contract, fire them, hand over the hard drives to the FBI and let them do their job.


Once we have our spending under control we can again take control of whose donations we'll accept. Obama's DNC wouldn't allow lobbyist to donate. That would be a fitting start.


And for gods sake stay away from Donna's expert acupuncturists!
Terry

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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #1646 on: November 09, 2017, 02:39:57 AM »
Martin:  I'm not sure I would describe Trumps numbers as stable.  I encourage you to look at EITHER the 538.com numbers that Nate puts out.....OR the Gallup numbers for Donnie from January to now.  You will see that Donnie's approval numbers have a downward bias...and his disapproval numbers have an upward bias.

His long term trends are negative.  Over the next year or less...I expect those to continue to worsen SLOWLY.  He's still working his way through some Independent voters who voted for him...as well as moderate Republicans who voted for him.

This is a PROCESS.  And YES.....it is definitely impacted by FOX lying to their viewers.  I have said several times that FOX is a threat to democracy....and I mean that quite literally.  Dishonesty of that magnitude is terrible for ANY society.  It is brainwashing, pure and simple.

It is why many Iranians have a negative view of us.  A free and vocal press is paramount in a well functioning democracy.  Personally....I would LOVE for the US to have an HONEST conservative channel.  That would be healthy for democracy.

But to have Sean Hannity, Lou Dobbs, Bryan Kilmeade and others constantly lie...whether it is the economy, global warming, or politics....is a HUGE danger to a democracy.
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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #1647 on: November 09, 2017, 03:39:27 AM »
Martin, I'm sorry if I gave you the impression that Trump's numbers are stable. He's a sociopathic narcissist and he wants everyone to come down to his level. He never achieved humanity, and has no clue that what he's missing is a bug, not a feature. Buddy is much more acute/current than I, if perhaps (in public) slightly less polite.

Russiagate is relevant because Putin's oligarchs are a major part of his ability to maintain the illusion that he is a "success", which they do because maintaining his illusions and fomenting conflict here serves their purposes. They propped him up in the '90s when he was in hock for at least a billion, before he discovered he could make big money pretending to be a businessman on TV and licensing his name to people who actually know how to make, not just spend, money. He's the original hollow man, except for evil.
« Last Edit: November 09, 2017, 04:13:05 AM by Susan Anderson »

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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #1648 on: November 09, 2017, 03:59:27 AM »
TerryM, I get about 50 requests a day to "chip in" somewhere between $3 and $500 from multiple parties, thanks to having contributed what we could before last year's election. Many of these come from Bernie's progressive allies. I don't think money helps much and I don't normally succumb, but it's the way things are done now, and unilateral disarmament is a questionable tactic.

I read my daily mailings from DeSmog Canada, and though I like Trudeau, some of the things he seems to approve are highly questionable (Tar Sands, mining, etc.). I have to assume that he like every politician has to work with people who oppose him. Obama a year or two back had to pass on an Arctic drilling lease; when I looked more closely it turned out to be a Bush initiative which Obama was wiser to modify by maintaining control, rather than refusing to act which would result in passing it on to people who would make it worse. That's the thing about politics: it's a dirty business. Those who want their hands clean can stand on the sidelines and wring them. I wholly support Elizabeth Warren, but it's obvious she is not unwilling to do what's necessary to win. The alternative is losing.

It is understandable, particularly in the climate arena, that compromise is no longer acceptable. What's to do?

« Last Edit: November 09, 2017, 04:09:12 AM by Susan Anderson »

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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #1649 on: November 09, 2017, 05:14:45 AM »
And it seems that more sealed indictments were added in the past few days.

In fact, the number now stands at a whopping 17 sealed indictments filed in DC's U.S. District Court:

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1-y7R63vrNR82QONXB8KodSHSXg_IvveR/view

Rob,

Could you update your Google search to see how many sealed indictments have been filed now?

Best,
ASLR
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