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Author Topic: The Russiagate conspiracy theory  (Read 1119983 times)

Rob Dekker

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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #1750 on: November 18, 2017, 06:26:04 AM »
Kaspersky publishes on Sep 2014 detection of NSA malware. One of the more interesting lists of malware is the 121 non Equation group malware discovered on the same comuter. That thing was riddled.

https://securelist.com/investigation-report-for-the-september-2014-equation-malware-detection-incident-in-the-us/83210/

NSA screwed up big time here.

sidd

In defense of Kaspersky Labs against the NSA, you quote an article that was actually WRITTEN BY Kaspersky Labs.

I'm not sure why you did that, but it doesn't really make me trust Kaspersky Labs. At all.
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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #1751 on: November 18, 2017, 06:49:57 AM »
"In defense of Kaspersky Labs .."

Wait what ? Please point out where in the comment i was defending Kaspersky Labs ?

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Rob Dekker

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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #1752 on: November 18, 2017, 07:41:00 AM »
Wait what ? Please point out where in the comment i was defending Kaspersky Labs ?

The "NSA screwed up big time here" remark.
You don't know if NSA screwed up here, or if it was Kaspersky.
And then you post in your defense an article written by Kaspersky.
Doesn't get any more clear than that.
« Last Edit: November 18, 2017, 07:47:39 AM by Rob Dekker »
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sidd

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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #1753 on: November 18, 2017, 08:00:19 AM »
The NSA admitted that Kaspersky antivirus detected Equation Group tools:

"U.S. investigators believe the contractor’s use of the software alerted Russian hackers to the presence of files that may have been taken from the NSA, according to people with knowledge of the investigation. Experts said the software, in searching for malicious code, may have found samples of it in the data the contractor removed from the NSA."

https://www.emptywheel.net/2017/10/05/kaspersky-and-the-third-major-breach-of-nsas-hacking-tools/

So the NSA lets a contractor have Equation group code on his computer, on which he is running KasperskyAntivirus. Kaspersky releases more detail, admitting their software detected Equation group source, and other malware. I refer to it. My opinion is that NSA screwed up. If that, to you, is a defense of Kaspersky, I think you are not reading carefully enuf.

That Kapersky report is quite interesting. The code was on removable media, so the contractor probably walked out a usb stick (gasp!, Snowden notwithstanding), then moved it to a machine running Kaspersky, then disabled Kaspersky and installed pirated Microsoft package that dropped more malware. Then reactivated Kaspersky. Gee, thats a genius. NSA is hiring people off the street here.

sidd

« Last Edit: November 18, 2017, 08:16:01 AM by sidd »

Rob Dekker

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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #1754 on: November 18, 2017, 08:18:05 AM »
Sidd. You are just making it worse.
From your link :

Quote
Some NSA contractor took some files home in (the story says) 2015 and put them on his home computer, where he was running Kaspersky AV. That led Kaspersky to discover the files. That somehow (the story doesn’t say) led hackers working for the Russian state to identify and steal the documents.

and

Quote
The hackers appear to have targeted the contractor after identifying the files through the contractor’s use of a popular antivirus software made by Russia-based Kaspersky Lab, these people said.

This suggests that Russian hackers working for the Russian state were able to steal documents from an NSA contractor BECAUSE he used Kaspersky AV.
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sidd

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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #1755 on: November 18, 2017, 08:33:29 AM »
Again, you do not read me closely. I will try to spell it out one more time:

https://www.wsj.com/articles/u-s-flagged-russian-firm-kaspersky-as-potential-threat-in-2004-1510957459

As early as 2004, there were warnings. Yet the NSA allowed (source!) code for Equation group malware on a contractors computers ten years later, a contractor who ran Kaspersky antivirus.

I am pointing to NSA screwups.

sidd

Rob Dekker

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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #1756 on: November 18, 2017, 08:44:01 AM »
I read you closely alright, and others can too.

It looks like you are now claiming that some NSA employees 'screwed up' because they installed sensitive files on a machine that used Kaspersky AV (while they should have known that using Kaspersky leaks information to the Russian state).
« Last Edit: November 18, 2017, 09:15:02 AM by Rob Dekker »
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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #1757 on: November 18, 2017, 02:44:27 PM »
I'm still wondering when Eric Schneiderman is going to make his appearance onto the RussiaGate stage.  After all...he and other state AG's are the ones that pose the most danger for Donnie and his kids.  I really hope that Florida gets a democrat in the Governor and AG slots in 2018.  Mar a Lago is just like Trump Tower.....Mafia/Laundramat Central.

The next 12 months will be gobsmacking.  The lobbyists are making one last push for tax cuts for the wealthy (0 Democrats  voted for the House bill).  Truly amazing to see so many bald faced lies about the worst piece of tax legislation in the last 50 years or possibly EVER.

What will Trump do to get out of the wedgie he has given himself?  And can he avoid getting booted out of office?
« Last Edit: November 18, 2017, 04:32:12 PM by Buddy »
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Rob Dekker

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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #1758 on: November 19, 2017, 09:17:31 AM »
Wikileaks (Assange) to Donald Jr :

https://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2017/11/the-secret-correspondence-between-donald-trump-jr-and-wikileaks/545738/

Quote
“Hi Don if your father ‘loses’ we think it is much more interesting if he DOES NOT conceed [sic] and spends time CHALLENGING the media and other types of rigging that occurred—as he has implied that he might do,”

It is hard to see this coming from anyone but a Russian agent or an alt-right activist.
« Last Edit: November 19, 2017, 09:32:43 AM by Rob Dekker »
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Neven

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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #1759 on: November 19, 2017, 10:08:08 AM »
"But none of that applies if you are exceptional, and the rest of the world should just shut up."

Two airplanes are flying at 40,000 feet.  One airplane has a pilot 👩‍✈️ that has NEVER landed a plane....but from 40,000 it looks like it shouldn't be too difficult.  The pilot 👩‍✈️ in the other plane has 20 years of experience landing planes and not only knows how to fly a plane at 40,000 feet....but they also know how to approach the landing strip at the proper angle....and land the plane safely.

From 40,000 feet...we BOTH have the view that the wealth gap should be narrowed SIGNIFICANTLY.  But there are different ways to try and land the plane.  Some work better than others.

It works better if you don't talk about it and just go 'Russia, Russia, tick, tock, Morn Don, Russia, Russia, Russia'? Brilliant strategy.

Of course, the problem of concentrated wealth corrupting everything is complicated and difficult to solve, but there's only a possibility of solving it, if enough people become full cognizant of the fact that this is the root of all the civilisation-threatening problems humanity is facing. You can't fragment the whole thing into Russiagate, Oil & Gas, AGW, and so on, and then pick your battles. Because every victory inevitably ends up being Pyrrhic, because you've wasted your resources and energy away from the prime cause of the battles.

The problem isn't Trump. Trump is a symptom of a systemic problem. You don't solve that problem by shouting Trump out of office. Even if the strategy works, which remains to be seen.

Never mind the fact that this is actually a Corporate Democrat battle (so that the corporate media doesn't have to discuss their failures or the issues that really count for average Americans). Why would you even want to go and fight their battles for them?

Wikileaks (Assange) to Donald Jr :

https://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2017/11/the-secret-correspondence-between-donald-trump-jr-and-wikileaks/545738/

Quote
“Hi Don if your father ‘loses’ we think it is much more interesting if he DOES NOT conceed [sic] and spends time CHALLENGING the media and other types of rigging that occurred—as he has implied that he might do,”

It is hard to see this coming from anyone but a Russian agent or an alt-right activist.

Or someone who desperately wants to get out of his prison (embassy), and knew he wouldn't if Clinton became president. It is, yet again, no conclusive evidence of anything.

But either way, Assange overplayed his hand by not being transparent and it's a shame that now Wikileaks and all the good it has done in exposing power and corruption, is tarnished because Assange turned it into an ego vehicle. What an asshole.
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Neven

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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #1760 on: November 19, 2017, 06:13:24 PM »
Buddy, I have an analogy that maybe more adequately explains what my problem is wrt the discussion we're having.

Imagine my daughter finds out that there's toxic waste under the playground. She says something should be done about it, people have to be made aware that there's a problem. Now, if I reply in the same way you did, I would have to say:

"Look, you're not a chemist or toxicology expert. You don't know how to solve this. It's probably impossible to solve. So, why don't you focus on something that is of more immediate importance: the swing.

The swing is dangerous, it's volatile, and it's vulgar, in the sense that it allows people to look under skirts. It's crucial that we get rid of that swing and replace it with a seesaw. You know, one with a blue and a red seat, and it just goes up and down, up and down, up and down. Nice and safe, no surprises.

I think that this is the battle you must fight. Do not talk about that toxic waste under the playground, and how people get hurt by the swing because the toxic fumes make it hard for them to think, assess the situation and react appropriately."

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Buddy

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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #1761 on: November 19, 2017, 08:28:19 PM »
At any company.....you see a LOT of issues come across your desk.  I would say that most issues have the same ROOT CAUSE:  Poor communication.  Either not enough communication, ineffective communication, not getting the right people involved in communicating.....etc.  It (communication issues) is ALWAYS a "we problem."  It is never just one persons issue....BOTH sides have to take some blame and try to resolve the problem.

So....Neven... in that vein I'll try to help resolve our communication issue.  What you wrote above...about how I would react regarding the "toxic waste issue under your daughters playground"....isn't anywhere CLOSE to how I would address the issue. 

If you came to me with that issue.... I would tell you this:

"Neven....I am a finance guy with a good amount of knowledge in finance, tax, etc.   I can tell you from the 40,000 foot level, that you have an issue to resolve in your daughters playground.  And the FIRST thing you need to do is call someone WITH SPECIFIC KNOWLEDGE in toxic spills....because I don't know shit about toxic spills...and I know I would be WAY over my head."

THAT is what I would say.  Just as I told you above "don't trust me...talk to other CPA's or TAX attorneys with experience working on an uber wealthy clientele"...when I was telling you that attempting to cap wealth.. or even measure it annually is an unworkable issue.  By the way...the media company "Mashable" had a market value of $150 million las year (they are a small media company) but there value this year is pegged at only $50 million.  That is just one more issue with trying to cap wealth. What happens when you try to cap a persons wealth at $1 billion (for example)...but 2 years later that company is only worth $100 million...but you already forced that stockholder to divest a boatload of wealth?  This is just another in a long list of reasons why your solution at trying to cap wealth DIRECTLY is unworkable.  There are ways to "effectively" do the same thing (like Switzerland 🇨🇭 tried to do).

The issue of wealth disparity (the issue we AGREE ON)...needs to be resolved.  But like MOST ISSUES....there is more than one way to skin a cat.

And again.....I don't know shit from shinola regarding the problems of toxic waste other than it sure looks like a big problem that needs to be resolved SOON, and your best bet is to get people who know something about toxic spills rather than me.  The very same kind of advice I give you on how to start and resolve the wealth disparity issue.....by talking with individuals with knowledge in the area....and that while you can identify the problem....you don't have the tools to resolve it yourself.

I think this horse has now been beaten to death....🏇🏼🏇🏼🏇🏼  Don't let the perfect be the enemy of the good.
« Last Edit: November 20, 2017, 09:55:28 PM by Buddy »
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Rob Dekker

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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #1762 on: November 20, 2017, 04:18:07 AM »
But either way, Assange overplayed his hand by not being transparent and it's a shame that now Wikileaks and all the good it has done in exposing power and corruption, is tarnished because Assange turned it into an ego vehicle. What an asshole.

One would think that now that Trump is President, and Trump stating "We love Wikileaks", Assange should be brave enough returning to the US and face charges.
He can't stay in that Ecuador embassy forever...
« Last Edit: November 20, 2017, 05:07:59 AM by Rob Dekker »
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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #1763 on: November 20, 2017, 05:27:44 AM »
Special Counsel Robert Mueller's team investigating whether President Donald Trump sought to obstruct a federal inquiry into connections between his presidential campaign and Russian operatives has now directed the Justice Department to turn over a broad array of documents

http://abcnews.go.com/US/special-counsel-sends-wide-ranging-request-documents-justice/story?id=51261366

Quote
In particular, Mueller's investigators are keen to obtain emails related to the firing of FBI Director James Comey and the earlier decision of Attorney General Jeff Sessions to recuse himself from the entire matter

[edit] This means Mueller is now investigating his own managers.
If such a thing as the Special Councel would have been possible in Russia, Magnitsky would still be alive today and we would be living in a different world.
« Last Edit: November 20, 2017, 06:10:54 AM by Rob Dekker »
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Rob Dekker

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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #1764 on: November 20, 2017, 06:34:22 AM »
Don't let the perfect be the enemy of the good.

+1
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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #1765 on: November 20, 2017, 07:41:33 AM »
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Susan Anderson

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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #1766 on: November 20, 2017, 09:30:41 PM »
Neven, it makes me so sad that you, an outstandingly righteous and good person, doing great work, is so determined to break up the Democratic party when we have much more immediate problems in front of us. You think we need to dismiss "corporate" Democrats first, last, and always, and you are eager to attach this label to people who don't deserve it.

Right now the Republicans are about to pass a tax cut for the rich masquerading as a tax cut for all that because of devious arguments means that we will see almost immediate cuts in Social Security and Medicare. That's their intention. Because of the way things are structured now, Democrats are dependent on large funding of elections. I don't say that's right, but it is across the board. It's almost not an exaggeration to say Republicans in power want death camps, prison, and debt for the poor, the sick, people of color, and the opposition.

So you want Democrats to dismiss hardworking public servants and pragmatists who have worked their whole lives to better the conditions of all of us because they need money to get elected, and because some of them have some wealth?

We need all hands on deck for that and for climate change. That doesn't mean eliminating most Democrats and moderates, it means bringing them in.

The power structure in the US is almost completely corrupt, and becoming more so by the day. You have persuaded yourself this is the doing of Democrats, not Republicans? Really?

There's a real enemy in town. Please stop bashing the victims of dishonest tactics and devious methodologies, voter suppression, and all the toolbox of the Kochtopus, Trump, Pence, and almost all Republicans in office, along with way too many judges and local authorities. They have certainly received help from Russian trolls who weren't so much pro-Trump as they were for creating division and distrust across the board (including even some people here, who have bought the conspiracy ideation wholesale because it fits their preconceptions). They've almost enacted 1984, and we are hanging on by a thread.

Insisting we hate and fight each other is not helping.
« Last Edit: November 20, 2017, 10:11:00 PM by Susan Anderson »

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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #1767 on: November 20, 2017, 10:20:13 PM »
On the other hand, this article eloquently argues that capitalism itself is the problem, and I'd agree with that. I'm just not into singling out the people who are actually trying to fix the system and ignoring the ones doing their best to destroy and exploit in favor of the kleptocracy. The Climate Crisis? It’s Capitalism, Stupid https://www.nytimes.com/2017/11/20/opinion/climate-capitalism-crisis.html This is slightly OT for here, but I put it in because I wanted to walk and chew gum on the subject discussed in my last comment. Extract:

Quote
The real culprit of the climate crisis is not any particular form of consumption, production or regulation but rather the very way in which we globally produce, which is for profit rather than for sustainability. So long as this order is in place, the crisis will continue and, given its progressive nature, worsen. This is a hard fact to confront. But averting our eyes from a seemingly intractable problem does not make it any less a problem. It should be stated plainly: It’s capitalism that is at fault.

As an increasing number of environmental groups are emphasizing, it’s systemic change or bust. From a political standpoint, something interesting has occurred here: Climate change has made anticapitalist struggle, for the first time in history, a non-class-based issue.

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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #1768 on: November 20, 2017, 11:50:40 PM »
Thanks for including both perspectives here, Susan. Very refreshing compared to the way many of us get down in our 'trenches'...

I too see a bit of both sides, though I may be a bit closer to Neven's position here than you are.

Practically speaking, it seems like we have to do all we can to get as many Repubs out of power, then (or really at the same time), challenge the Dems to live up to their historical roll as protectors of working people (well, to the extent that they ever really did that very effectively). Can we do both?

Who are  our Tip O'Neill's today? I was happy to be represented by him when I lived in Mass. And am happy to be represented by Keith Ellison.

Most of traditional Dem positions are hugely popular/populist. Not emphasizing those positions enough leave us open to fake demagogues hijacking what should be Dem positions.
"A force de chercher de bonnes raisons, on en trouve; on les dit; et après on y tient, non pas tant parce qu'elles sont bonnes que pour ne pas se démentir." Choderlos de Laclos "You struggle to come up with some valid reasons, then cling to them, not because they're good, but just to not back down."

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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #1769 on: November 21, 2017, 12:04:56 AM »
It seems likely that the egregious nature of Flynn's work with Turkey may open the door for Mueller to indict him based on violating FARA.

Extract: "Manafort case may point to strategy against Flynn"

https://www.politico.com/story/2017/11/20/paul-manafort-michael-flynn-case-strategy-trump-russia-probe-247643

Extract: "A bail filing may offer clues about how Mueller could charge the former national security adviser over his work benefiting Turkey.

Like Manafort, Flynn belatedly registered as a foreign agent after coming under scrutiny by Justice Department prosecutors for activity by his consulting firm. Lawyers tracking the investigation said Flynn is unlikely to be charged with violating FARA unless, as with Manafort, special counsel Robert Mueller feels he can show the former national security adviser broke the rules in especially egregious ways."
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Neven

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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #1770 on: November 21, 2017, 12:31:56 AM »
Susan, I want to reply to your comment in the Corporate Democrats thread and try to explain again why I think it's so important to get the message out that all of the public servants really have to start serving the public instead of rich donors/corporations (because not all of them do, especially the important ones). Change can only come from the Democratic Party. I'm not discussing the evilness of the GOP and Trump, just like I don't discuss that the sky is blue. They won't change, especially not if the Democrats keep pushing to the right.

As for that insane tax cut, that's the stuff that deserves the focus Russiagate gets from politicians, mainstream media, and people on Internet forums. I still think that it's much smarter from a strategy perspective to thump Trump with the issues and his insane Swamp policies. And to tie all of the GOP to him, and not suck up to all those nice Republican colleagues who speak out against Trump ('isn't GWB a sweet guy in retrospect' and 'McCain is a hero' and 'if only Romney were president, haha'). He has to go down and drag all of the GOP with him.

In the long run it's probably a better strategy, and certainly less risky, than breathlessly fanning the flames of a new Cold War, just because some reality-tv idiot who said 'grab 'em by the p***y' managed to bluff his way into the White House, mainstream media see their ratings soar and bandwagon Democrats don't have to discuss issues or evaluate the cause of their failures.

You attack him on his lies and insane policies, you mock him instead of getting outraged at all his tricks, and then at the end you say: Oh, and he also has corrupt ties with Russian oligarchs, but we want to have a good relationship with Russia and its people.

In the meantime you send out a message to Democrat politicians who are too eager to please donors, let alone the outright Republicans with a blue tie (Manchin and I forgot the names of all those other criminals), that it's over with the lesser-evil and incrementalism bullshit. No more cheating, no more pay for play, the neoliberal Clinton era is over. It didn't work and it will never work, if the USA wants to return to a (both physically and morally) healthy society and culture.

Well, it looks like this is the comment I wanted to write. We can discuss again why this message needs to be sent out in the Democratic Party in the other thread.
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Rob Dekker

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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #1771 on: November 21, 2017, 05:20:46 AM »
I think this discussion does not belong in this thread, but since Neven drives it, I guess it's OK to ask a question :

In the long run it's probably a better strategy, and certainly less risky, than breathlessly fanning the flames of a new Cold War, just because some reality-tv idiot who said 'grab 'em by the p***y' managed to bluff his way into the White House, mainstream media see their ratings soar and bandwagon Democrats don't have to discuss issues or evaluate the cause of their failures.

I don't get this.
Who exactly is "breathlessly fanning the flames of a new Cold War" ?
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Rob Dekker

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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #1772 on: November 21, 2017, 07:56:17 AM »
Rachel Maddow had a very good news presentation today, packed with developments in the various sexual misconduct allegations, Trump foundation shutting down, many reports about the Russia investigation (Kushner lying under oath about contacts with wikileaks and overture for a back-door with Russia etc), the similarities between Nixon and Trump in interfering with the Department of Justice and the Manson murder trial, a confirmation of my report above that Mueller is now investigating his own superiors at the Justice Department, much about who is financing legal bills for White House staffers and Donald Jr, a Trump attack on Obama's Net Neutrality rules and a Trump attack on veterans Health Care.

Well worth the 40 minutes :


« Last Edit: November 21, 2017, 08:02:57 AM by Rob Dekker »
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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #1773 on: November 21, 2017, 10:08:54 AM »
I don't get this.
Who exactly is "breathlessly fanning the flames of a new Cold War" ?

The US mainstream media, who is always pushing for war (good for ratings, good for MIC advertising). Maddow herself called it an act of war. What else can the conclusion be? Russia must be punished.

Here's a video that talks about some of the 'experts' that get trotted out by the mainstream media:

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Rob Dekker

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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #1774 on: November 21, 2017, 10:43:37 AM »
I don't get this.
Who exactly is "breathlessly fanning the flames of a new Cold War" ?

The US mainstream media, who is always pushing for war (good for ratings, good for MIC advertising). Maddow herself called it an act of war. What else can the conclusion be? Russia must be punished.

It's too late here for a full response, but let's get some facts straight first :
Where exactly did Maddow call exactly which act of Russia an "act of war" ?
And why should Russia NOT be punished for violations of (international/national) law ?
And why would any such 'punishment' constitute "breathlessly fanning the flames of a new Cold War" ?
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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #1775 on: November 21, 2017, 11:56:20 AM »
The US mainstream media always pushing for war with Russia?  Really?  I hadn't noticed that.  I only recognized one person.....Clint Watts....(yes....I actually watched all 7 minutes....you owe me one Neven😉).  But whether it is one or most (which Neven comment seems to suggest).....I think investigative journalism by anyone who is actually looking for the truth....is a good thing.

Three questions for you Neven:

1).   Is it good that FOX News doesnt cover RussiaGate?  In fact...their viewers think RussiaGate is "just smoke and mirrors"?

2).   How many hours of "mainstream media" (ABC, CBS, NBC, MSNBC, CNN)....those specific 5 stations have YOU watched over the last nine months..... or how many hours do you watch per week or month....just an estimate.  I probably watch 6 - 12 hours per week ..... + a small dose of FOX until I puke and have to turn the channel (I believe that I can't discuss just how bad FOX is unless I actually watch it).

3).   I haven't noticed that "mainstream media" is promoting war with Russia (or anyone else).  They DO report that intelligence sources in the US as well as in Western European countries agree that Russia HAS interfered with the US elections....as well as tried to interfere in elections in France and Germany.

One additional question:  Do you believe that Russia interfered with the US election AT THE DIRECTION of the KREMLIN....and they did so to promote Trump and work against Clinton?


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Neven

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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #1776 on: November 21, 2017, 01:30:21 PM »
It's too late here for a full response, but let's get some facts straight first :
Where exactly did Maddow call exactly which act of Russia an "act of war" ?

Here, for instance:

Quote
On several occasions, Maddow has described Moscow’s alleged interference in the 2016 race as an “attack on our election.” On March 21, she went further:

This is not part of American politics. This is not, you know, partisan warfare between Republicans and Democrats. This is international warfare against our country. And it did not end on Election Day. We are still in it.

Quote
And why should Russia NOT be punished for violations of (international/national) law ?

Everybody should be punished for violations of international law. The problem here would be that the complainant, superpower USA, itself is never punished for similar breeches. That would probably be the defense of the Russian government (if it is conclusively proven that attempts were made, and that these attempts had significant success), and if they then don't back down, what do you do then? Nuke Moscow?

Quote
And why would any such 'punishment' constitute "breathlessly fanning the flames of a new Cold War" ?

My complaint is that Russiagate gets far too much attention from the mainstream media, that a large part of it is Glennbeckian in nature, that too many people get sucked into it, and that it consequently takes up too much space on a forum that is supposed to be about Arctic sea ice loss and AGW (and solving them).

Talking about Trump and his antics doesn't solve anything. Talking about what should replace Trump and understanding why American democracy is so weak that a sociopathic idiot like him makes it to the WH, does.
The enemy is within
Don't confuse me with him

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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #1777 on: November 21, 2017, 03:00:28 PM »
Thought at first this was too off-topic, but Neven, given your last sentence, here it is:

Trump voter: If Jesus Christ told me Trump colluded with Russia, I'd check with Trump
Quote
"If Jesus Christ gets down off the cross and told me Trump is with Russia, I would tell him, 'Hold on a second. I need to check with the president if it's true,'" said Mark Lee, one of six Trump voters to appear on a CNN panel Monday morning.
http://thehill.com/homenews/administration/361158-trump-voter-if-jesus-christ-told-me-trump-colluded-with-russia-id


I’ll add this:
The Values That ‘Values Voters’ Care About Most Are Policies, Not Character Traits
https://fivethirtyeight.com/features/the-values-that-values-voters-care-about-most-are-policies-not-character-traits/

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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #1778 on: November 21, 2017, 07:57:13 PM »
Wow, just...wow

But in other news:

http://www.truth-out.org/opinion/item/42609-how-democratic-socialists-worked-with-sanders-s-our-revolution-and-other-grassroots-groups-to-sweep-november-s-elections

How Democratic Socialists Worked With Sanders Supporters and Grassroots Groups to Sweep November's Elections

And note: http://www.truth-out.org/news/item/42662-the-redneck-revolt-is-showing-up-at-gun-shows-and-kkk-rallies-to-end-white-supremacy

The "Redneck Revolt" Is Showing Up at Gun Shows and KKK Rallies to Combat White Supremacy
"A force de chercher de bonnes raisons, on en trouve; on les dit; et après on y tient, non pas tant parce qu'elles sont bonnes que pour ne pas se démentir." Choderlos de Laclos "You struggle to come up with some valid reasons, then cling to them, not because they're good, but just to not back down."

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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #1779 on: November 22, 2017, 12:10:47 AM »
What tangled webs we weave …

Title: "Who is Reza Zarrab? Turkish-Iranian gold trader may be working with Mueller investigation of Michael Flynn"

http://www.cbc.ca/news/world/who-is-reza-zarrab-turkish-iranian-gold-trader-may-be-working-with-mueller-investigation-of-michael-flynn-1.4409930

Extract: "The mystery of Reza Zarrab may be unraveling.

The Turkish-Iranian businessman has been in a U.S. prison since 2016, but last week, reports emerged that he had been moved and is talking to U.S. special prosecutor Robert Mueller about former U.S. national security advisor Michael Flynn.

Now, it appears Zarrab's name has been removed from court documents in the criminal case against him.

So the big question is: Does Zarrab have details that could prove Flynn was helping foreign countries meddle in U.S. affairs?

The case is also gnawing at the Turkish government. And in a country where conspiracy theories are essentially a default setting, the facts and whispers in the Zarrab case are spinning an extraordinarily wide, sticky web that threatens Ankara and Washington."
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sidd

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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #1780 on: November 22, 2017, 01:12:56 AM »
Brazile states hackers destroyed DNC voter data, DNC denies.

http://thehill.com/policy/cybersecurity/361417-donna-brazile-says-russians-destroyed-critical-dnc-data

Backups were nonexistent  ? Or were they destroyed as well? If the second, why no generational offline copies ?

Of course Brazile might be wrong.

And why did the DNC did not turn over compromised server(s) to FBI ?

Questions, questions. Will wait patiently for the leaks.

sidd

 

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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #1781 on: November 22, 2017, 05:25:31 AM »
I sure hope they get Hope Hicks in front of a grand jury:

1). 29 years old
2). The most pressure packed moment of her life
3). Without having an attorney in the room while she is questioned

My guess is.....she would miss the free throw.  She might put up an air all.  Pressure does very bad things to people. 
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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #1782 on: November 22, 2017, 08:36:16 AM »
Hope ? Hope don't know nuttn compared to Rhona. You know it's going to the top of Donald's fake hairdo when they put Rhona Graff on the line. They'd get Norma Foerderer too, if she wasn't dead.

https://www.politico.com/story/2017/03/rhona-graff-trump-conduit-236484

https://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2015/aug/3/ronald-kessler-the-two-donald-trumps/

Reminds me of Rose.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rose_Mary_Woods

sidd

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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #1783 on: November 22, 2017, 09:22:25 AM »
Quote
And why should Russia NOT be punished for violations of (international/national) law ?

Everybody should be punished for violations of international law. The problem here would be that the complainant, superpower USA, itself is never punished for similar breeches. That would probably be the defense of the Russian government (if it is conclusively proven that attempts were made, and that these attempts had significant success), and if they then don't back down, what do you do then? Nuke Moscow?

Don't be silly. There are many vehicles to 'punish' a state for violating international law.
Sanctions are most widely used, but other method too. You can expel some diplomats. Or freeze their assets. Or you can get the UN to agree on any other measure.
It seems that in the RussiaGate issue, sanctions are an appropriate response, and the US has acted accordingly.

Also, you say "superpower USA, itself is never punished for similar breeches.". Can you give an example of that (where the US violated international law) ?

Looking at the bigger picture, I think the real problem is the problem of denial.

Russia denies interfering in the elections, and as with any denial, that means that there will be a group of people with doubts. These people will vent these doubts and create a counter argument, which will result in discussions that go nowhere. In the end, the argument becomes polarized, and everyone digs into their position. After that, no discovered evidence makes any difference any more, since there is always some crooked way of looking at the facts that re-enforces ones opinion.

We have seen that in the climate change debate, we saw it when Russia annexed Crimea and got away with it, when Russia started a war in Eastern Ukraine and got away with it, we saw it ever so painfully when Russia shot down MH17 and got away with it, and we see it again in RussiaGate, when Russia interfered in the elections of 27 countries, and so far got away with it.

Denial is the REAL problem that is dividing people, and it lets the perpetrator get away with hideous crimes.

Putin is the master of denial. All his actions are guided by the principle of "plausible deniability". He understand how powerful denial can be, and where to use it. That way he can get away with ANYTHING, and divide his opponents in the process.

And THAT is the real problem.
« Last Edit: November 22, 2017, 10:17:36 AM by Rob Dekker »
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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #1784 on: November 22, 2017, 10:36:14 AM »
Brazile states hackers destroyed DNC voter data, DNC denies.

http://thehill.com/policy/cybersecurity/361417-donna-brazile-says-russians-destroyed-critical-dnc-data

Backups were nonexistent  ? Or were they destroyed as well? If the second, why no generational offline copies ?

Of course Brazile might be wrong.

And why did the DNC did not turn over compromised server(s) to FBI ?

Questions, questions. Will wait patiently for the leaks.

sidd

Brazile's statement sounds overly dramatic (maybe she want to promote her book 'Hacks') :

Quote
“We had so much shit in … our entire technology ecosystem that we couldn’t clean it up. Oh man, [those] Russians were on us like white on rice. I mean, they were, Joe, they were destroying data, critical data,”

I'm more inclined to believe the DNC itself when they state :

Quote
"Her allegation is inaccurate - there is no evidence the voter file was compromised."
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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #1785 on: November 22, 2017, 11:39:03 PM »
OFFTOPIC:

"Can you give an example of that (where the US violated international law) ?"

1) Bombing of cambodia

https://www.salon.com/2015/11/10/henry_kissingers_genocidal_legacy_partner/

2) Nicaragua

"The ICJ held that the U.S. had violated international law by supporting the Contras in their rebellion against the Nicaraguan government and by mining Nicaragua's harbors. "

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nicaragua_v._United_States

3) Abrogation of Geneva conventions

https://www.acslaw.org/pdf/enemycombatants.pdf

4) Torture

https://www.amnestyusa.org/pdfs/sscistudy1.pdf

Perhaps we should take this to a new thread ?

sidd

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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #1786 on: November 23, 2017, 01:18:13 AM »
Sidd, many of your points are contested.

Your very first point, Bombing of Cambodia, happened during the Vietnam War, where the Viet Cong was operating out of Cambodia. Also at the time, the Khmer Rouge was actively engaging in genocide in Cambodia. If US violated any International Law of war there is disputed, but at least they did not deny their bombing raids as Russia does. And they certainly did not deliberately target civilian targets (like schools and bus-stops) and then blame it on their opponent as Russia did in Ukraine. Or shoot down a civilian airliner, and then blame it on their opponent, as Russia did.

I agree that this is getting off-topic though.

Back on topic, is there any case where the US intervened in the elections of 27 countries ?
« Last Edit: November 23, 2017, 01:25:05 AM by Rob Dekker »
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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #1787 on: November 23, 2017, 05:20:23 AM »
OFFTOPIC:

"is there any case where the US intervened in the elections of 27 countries ?"

Eighty one.

doi: 10.1177/0738894216661190

"Overall, 117 partisan electoral interventions were made by the US and the USSR/Russia between 1 January 1946 and 31 December 2000. Eighty-one (or 69%) of these interventions were done by the US while the other 36 cases (or 31%) were conducted by the USSR/ Russia. To put this number in the proper perspective, during the same period 937 competi- tive national-level executive elections, or plausible targets for an electoral intervention, were conducted within independent countries."

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/worldviews/wp/2016/10/13/the-long-history-of-the-u-s-interfering-with-elections-elsewhere/
http://beta.latimes.com/nation/la-na-us-intervention-foreign-elections-20161213-story.html

Not to mention non election interventions like Iran(1953) ,Syria (1949) ,Chile(1973), Guatemala(1954) ... too many to count. Or the breaking of treaties with the First Peoples in North America. Or ...

sidd
« Last Edit: November 23, 2017, 05:27:14 AM by sidd »

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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #1788 on: November 23, 2017, 05:57:52 AM »
OFFTOPIC:

"many of your points are contested."

Yes, I understand that some people are cool with torture.

"Your very first point, Bombing of Cambodia, happened during the Vietnam War, where the Viet Cong was operating out of Cambodia."

Agreed. But when i last checked, secret bombing of a third country is ... not exactly in accordance with law. From the salon article

"Absolute and total secrecy, especially from Congress, was a necessity. He had no doubt that Congress, crucial to the appropriation of funds needed to conduct specific military missions, would never approve a bombing campaign against a neutral country with which the United States wasn’t at war."

"Also at the time, the Khmer Rouge was actively engaging in genocide in Cambodia."

Alas, so many have no knowledge of history. The Khmer Rouge came later after bombing had destabilized Cambodia.

This is getting quite offtopic. I have begun a new thread in the section "The rest" called "US intervention in foreign lands."

sidd

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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #1789 on: November 23, 2017, 07:17:43 AM »
"is there any case where the US intervened in the elections of 27 countries ?"

Eighty one.

Thanks for the WaPo link, sidd.
I did not know it was THAT bad.
Unfortunately the article that describes the details is behind a paywall.
But I'm willing to take their word for it. The US is definitively not innocent here.
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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #1790 on: November 23, 2017, 09:19:54 AM »
OFFTOPIC:

"many of your points are contested."

Yes, I understand that some people are cool with torture.

That is a low blow. There is no excuse for torture. But your remark lacks context.
Let me quote one part of the summary of your report, in the context of 9/11 :

Quote
I have attempted throughout to remember the impact on the nation and to the CIA
workforce from the attacks of September 11, 2001. I can understand the CIA's
impulse to consider the use of every possible tool to gather intelligence and remove
terrorists from the battlefield,^ and CIA was encouraged by political leaders and
the public to do whatever it could to prevent another attack.

The Intelligence Committee as well often pushes intelligence agencies to act
quickly in response to threats and world events.

Nevertheless, such pressure, fear, and expectation of further terrorist plots do not
justify, temper, or excuse improper actions taken by individuals or organizations in
the name of national security. The major lesson of this report is that regardless of
the pressures and the need to act, the Intelligence Community's actions must
always reflect who we are as a nation, and adhere to our laws and standards. It is
precisely at these times of national crisis that our government must be guided by
the lessons of our history and subject decisions to internal and external review.

Instead, CIA personnel, aided by two outside contractors, decided to initiate a
program of indefinite secret detention and the use of brutal interrogation
techniques in violation of U.S. law, treaty obligations, and our values.

That summary was written by Diane Feinstein. You know, one of these Democrats that is thrown under the bus by numerous posters here in another thread. She is right, on all accounts, and explains it in the context of 9/11 and its aftermath.

Did you ever see such an argument coming out of Russia ; regarding their operations in Ukraine, or Georgia, or Afghanistan ?

Neither did I. Maybe only by Boris Nemtsov. Guess what happened to him.

Thank you very much.
« Last Edit: November 23, 2017, 09:44:07 AM by Rob Dekker »
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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #1791 on: November 24, 2017, 01:14:39 AM »
Uh oh Donnie.  I hope Michael Flynn isn't cooperating with Mueller.  THAT...would not be good news for the "big gobbler". 😱

Gobble....gobble.....gobble.  Tick...tick...tick...⏰

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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #1792 on: November 24, 2017, 01:28:04 AM »
OFFTOPIC:

"Instead, CIA personnel, aided by two outside contractors, decided to initiate a program of indefinite secret detention and the use of brutal interrogation techniques in violation of U.S. law, treaty obligations, and our values."  -- DiFi

Just two outside contractors and CIA. Unmentioned in her apologia are Yoo,Bybee,Addington,Cheney,Bush ... and the army at Abu Ghraib and elsewhere. And no mention of war crimes. Oddly enuf the body of the report implicates the whole chain of command. DiFi, of course, obligated to the mil-ind complex, is too greedy and shrewd to do so explicitly.

Just a few bad apples.

Yoo, the guy who claimed the president could crush the testicles of a suspected terrorist child is now Law Prof at Berkeley. Bybee is federal judge. Bush is rehabbed.

No war crimes here. Nuttn to see, move along. Look forward, not back.

sidd
« Last Edit: November 24, 2017, 01:48:29 AM by sidd »

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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #1793 on: November 24, 2017, 07:03:05 AM »
Lawyers for Michael T. Flynn, President Trump’s former national security adviser, notified the president’s legal team in recent days that they could no longer discuss the special counsel’s investigation, according to four people involved in the case — an indication that Mr. Flynn is cooperating with prosecutors or negotiating a deal.

https://www.nytimes.com/2017/11/23/us/politics/flynn-mueller-russia-trump.html

This is interesting. If Flynn is now making a deal with the special counsel's investigation, this suggests that Mueller is after somebody higher up. However there are not that many people higher up than Flynn. Only close relatives of Trump. Kushner comes to mind...

Looks like it's getting closer to Mueller time...

« Last Edit: November 24, 2017, 07:38:26 AM by Rob Dekker »
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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #1794 on: November 24, 2017, 09:39:24 AM »
Sidd, you fail to notice that Yoo's torture practices (during the Bush administration) were stopped in their tracks by Obama, on his second day in office :

Quote
In 2009, two days after taking office, President Barack Obama in Executive Order 13491 repudiated and revoked all legal guidance on interrogation authored by Yoo and his successors in the Office of Legal Counsel between September 11, 2001, and January 20, 2009.[5][6]
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Yoo

Can you possibly complement Obama for that ? Or is that too much to ask ?

Also you fail to mention that there was a process by where Yoo's opinions were challenged and he almost got convicted for  "knowingly failed to provide a thorough, objective, and candid interpretation of the law", and recommended referral of him to the Bar for disciplinary action.[59].
You may not agree with it, but there was a process and a judgement.

What is much more disturbing is that now, with Donald Trump as president, Trump goes much further than Yoo's opinion and openly advocates "take out their families" :
http://www.cnn.com/2015/12/02/politics/donald-trump-terrorists-families/index.html

Can you possibly denounce Trump's statement, or again, is that too much to ask ?
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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #1795 on: November 24, 2017, 01:23:39 PM »
"is there any case where the US intervened in the elections of 27 countries ?"

Eighty one.

Thanks for the WaPo link, sidd.
I did not know it was THAT bad.
Unfortunately the article that describes the details is behind a paywall.
But I'm willing to take their word for it. The US is definitively not innocent here.

Of course, as has been made very clear a great number of times both here and elsewhere, the entire "Russiagate" thing isn't about whether Putin and his comrades interfered in our election; that's a known, and that's a given. No, "Russiagate" is about just how closely TrumpCo plotted with Putin to commit conspiracy against the United States in order to subvert the American democratic process. That's whats going to bring down Flynn, and Manafort, and Papadopoulos, and Kushner, and Don Jr., and Eric, and Ivanka, and many others. Now, President "Unindicted Co-conspirator" will likely never do a perp walk much as he likely deserves it. But he will become even more the very lamest of ducks, which will severely curtail his administration's ability to carry out its hateful, stupid, divisive, destructive, profoundly ignorant agenda.

Any clear-thinking person is all for that.
« Last Edit: November 25, 2017, 04:53:12 PM by Jim Pettit »

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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #1796 on: November 24, 2017, 02:05:26 PM »
his administration's ability to carry out it's hateful, stupid, divisive, destructive, profoundly ignorant agenda.
Their agenda. The agenda of the Koch network (incl. Mercer) very clearly.

Why do you see the speck (corporate Democrats) that is in your brother’s eye, but do not notice the log (Kochtopus party) that is in your own eye? (Matthew 7:3)

-----------------------------
Back to topic:
Malcolm Nance gives his synopsis of what happened last year in an excellent 35min talk:

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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #1797 on: November 25, 2017, 09:38:45 AM »
Mueller might be the one who’s ‘draining the swamp’.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/national-security/mueller-might-be-the-one-whos-draining-the-swamp/2017/11/24/e1f11ae0-c40b-11e7-84bc-5e285c7f4512_story.html

Since Mueller was appointed, and certainly since Manafort was indicted and the Podesta Group dissolved, things are starting to move in Washington :
 
Quote
It is special counsel Robert S. Mueller III whose work seems to be sending shock waves through the capital, by exposing the lucrative work lobbyists from both parties engage in on behalf of foreign interests.

Quote
Since Mueller was appointed, more people and firms have either filed or amended registrations that make public their work on behalf of foreign interests than had done so over the same time period in each of at least the past 20 years.

[edit] one such example :

Quote
In late August, for example, the law firm Sidley Austin amended its filing to disclose that partner Michael Borden had the previous year met with staffers from the Senate Foreign Relations Committee and House Foreign Affairs Committee, as well as a State Department official and two congressmen, on behalf of the Russian partially state-owned VTB Bank to “discuss U.S. sanctions on Russian institutions.” Borden declined to comment for this report.

and

Quote
The Justice Department, too, might be changing its posture. Justice recently pressured the company operating the website and television channel RT — previously known as Russia Today — to register under FARA.

We may finally get some clarity on foreign influence in our elections and news coverage as well.

Mueller is close to the best thing to give Thanks to this Thanksgiving.
« Last Edit: November 25, 2017, 10:34:21 AM by Rob Dekker »
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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #1798 on: November 25, 2017, 10:40:00 AM »
We wish you a Mueller Xmas
We wish you a Mueller Xmas
We wish you a Mueller Xmas
And an indicted new year
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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #1799 on: November 25, 2017, 04:55:23 PM »
Regarding the other side of the Atlantic, Louise Mensch has a new post. Often enough she is months ahead and proven right.

https://patribotics.blog/2017/11/24/exclusive-brexit-referendum-may-need-to-be-redone/
Quote
Exclusive: Brexit Referendum ‘May Need to Be Redone’

Multiple sources with links to UK intelligence report that Russian corruption of the Brexit vote is far worse than previously thought. The referendum on remaining part of the EU received so much illegal foreign money and influence from Russia, these sources say, that UK intelligence is minded to recommend to Theresa May’s government that the Brexit vote be redone, as it is not thought that the vote was ‘free and fair’. This term is often used in Great Britain to describe a legitimate election process.

[...]

[...] Sources speculated, without certainty, that any re-do of a corrupted Brexit vote might be announced after the arrest of Nigel Farage, which, separate sources assert, is a certainty.

[...] Analysis was not merely based on logging the amount of money and the number of social media profiles affected, they said, but on SIGINT, or signals intelligence – that is, recordings and other legal interceptions of politicians, Russian agents and assets, and of tracking laundered money, including by tracking the use of bitcoin, that flowed from Vladimir Putin into the Brexit referendum.

GCHQ, as we have previously reported, recorded Steve Mnuchin, Donald Trump and others at Trump Turnberry on June 24th, 2016, the day after Brexit. All attending that event and the weekend with Mr. Trump that followed it were under constant surveillance, sources said. At that weekend, the deal outlined at Trump Tower on June 9th, 2016, was finalized – Trump would alter policy in America, on both sanctions and Ukraine, in exchange for Russia’s help in hacking the election. Brexit and Cambridge Analytica were crucial to ‘proving’ to Trump that Putin and his assets could hand an election victory, against the odds, to the GOP’s candidate. Steve Bannon and Robert Mercer were crucial links in Putin’s twin assaults on the UK and US electoral systems; they were heavily involved with UKIP, Cambridge Analytica, Brexit and then the Trump campaign.
(my emph.)