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Susan Anderson

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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #1800 on: November 25, 2017, 10:58:16 PM »
Thanks Florifulgurator. One reason I haven't returned to the neverending argument any more than I can help is the feeling that whatever I write, no matter how much effort I put into it, several of my respondents don't read for the purpose of comprehension. I've tried to make myself clear, but all I get in response are well-meaning and in some cases true points that do not respond to what I said. It feels to me like these fixed ideas are not susceptible to the facts on the ground. I tried very very hard to make the point that requiring honest and hardworking people to cannibalize themselves with civil war while ignoring the real villains is a recipe for failure. Once more, and briefly, a quote to define corporatism.

Quote
Most things a corporatist government does involve transferring assets from public to private ownership, so its decisions are eagerly delivered by the private sector. Since New Labour, private interests are often involved with government at every stage; from lobbying for a reform in the first place, to drafting of the bill, to implementation.

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2017/oct/28/night-of-the-living-dead-britains-brexit-team

I do not have the stomach to return and try, try again, after making my best effort on the insistent corporate labeling thread. Inasmuch as this relates to Russiagate, I'd say it's because Russian trolls have encouraged conflict and hostility amongst people who need to trust each other. Trump was just a bonus.

AbruptSLR

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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #1801 on: November 26, 2017, 12:51:46 AM »
Regarding the other side of the Atlantic, Louise Mensch has a new post. Often enough she is months ahead and proven right.

https://patribotics.blog/2017/11/24/exclusive-brexit-referendum-may-need-to-be-redone/
Quote
Exclusive: Brexit Referendum ‘May Need to Be Redone’

Multiple sources with links to UK intelligence report that Russian corruption of the Brexit vote is far worse than previously thought. The referendum on remaining part of the EU received so much illegal foreign money and influence from Russia, these sources say, that UK intelligence is minded to recommend to Theresa May’s government that the Brexit vote be redone, as it is not thought that the vote was ‘free and fair’. This term is often used in Great Britain to describe a legitimate election process.

[...]

[...] Sources speculated, without certainty, that any re-do of a corrupted Brexit vote might be announced after the arrest of Nigel Farage, which, separate sources assert, is a certainty.

[...] Analysis was not merely based on logging the amount of money and the number of social media profiles affected, they said, but on SIGINT, or signals intelligence – that is, recordings and other legal interceptions of politicians, Russian agents and assets, and of tracking laundered money, including by tracking the use of bitcoin, that flowed from Vladimir Putin into the Brexit referendum.

GCHQ, as we have previously reported, recorded Steve Mnuchin, Donald Trump and others at Trump Turnberry on June 24th, 2016, the day after Brexit. All attending that event and the weekend with Mr. Trump that followed it were under constant surveillance, sources said. At that weekend, the deal outlined at Trump Tower on June 9th, 2016, was finalized – Trump would alter policy in America, on both sanctions and Ukraine, in exchange for Russia’s help in hacking the election. Brexit and Cambridge Analytica were crucial to ‘proving’ to Trump that Putin and his assets could hand an election victory, against the odds, to the GOP’s candidate. Steve Bannon and Robert Mercer were crucial links in Putin’s twin assaults on the UK and US electoral systems; they were heavily involved with UKIP, Cambridge Analytica, Brexit and then the Trump campaign.
(my emph.)

Thank you for this important post, and I hope that Mueller subpoenas both Steve Bannon and Robert Mercer; before turning his full focus on Trump.
“It is not the strongest or the most intelligent who will survive but those who can best manage change.”
― Leon C. Megginson

TerryM

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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #1802 on: November 26, 2017, 02:30:51 AM »
Mueller, from the Hell's Angels to Snowdon to Anthrax.


http://www.latimes.com/politics/la-na-pol-mueller-record-20171122-story.html


Terry

sidd

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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #1803 on: November 26, 2017, 07:22:29 AM »
In my book, mueller's greatest hit was pulling FBI out of torture. But he is a standard FBI/US attorney kinda guy, entrapped a buncha people in counterterror investigations.

He's been around the block. He knows how to build a case.

sidd

Hefaistos

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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #1804 on: November 26, 2017, 12:37:33 PM »
Regarding the other side of the Atlantic, Louise Mensch has a new post. Often enough she is months ahead and proven right.

"...The referendum on remaining part of the EU received so much illegal foreign money and influence from Russia, these sources say, that UK intelligence is minded to recommend to Theresa May’s government that the Brexit vote be redone, as it is not thought that the vote was ‘free and fair’. This term is often used in Great Britain to describe a legitimate election process.

[...]
Steve Bannon and Robert Mercer were crucial links in Putin’s twin assaults on the UK and US electoral systems; they were heavily involved with UKIP, Cambridge Analytica, Brexit and then the Trump campaign.
(my emph.)

Interesting! Especially her claim in the last sentence that it was Russia that ordered services from Cambridge Analytica (my italics).
My hypothesis is that it was the other way around, that CA/Mercer/Bannon  initiated these scheme to cooperate with the troll factory in Russia, and that it was the alt-right in the US+UK that was running these schemes. They were using internet resources, programmers and posters in Russia for reasons such as low cost of labour, skilled IT people, and to deflect interest to the "scapegoat für alles".
The question remains, where is the evidence to support this claim by Louise Mensch ?

Naturally, you have to check the sender: Her reputation as a blogger is not good, this is what Wikipedia writes: "A number of critics consider the blog posts to be conspiracy theories."

Supposedly, she is just spreading anti-Russian propaganda in this, as you say, "important" post.
Since Mensch's allegations are dramatic, we have to ask again: where is the evidence that Russians are running schemes in the UK and the US through Cambdrige Analytica?

There is an article in Vox about her, and others making up conspiracy theories about Russia, that says "Louise Mensch, a former right-wing British parliamentarian and romance novelist, spreads the newest, punchiest, and often most unfounded Russia gossip".
There you go with your Russia-phobia, made up by a right-wing romance novelist :)
https://www.vox.com/world/2017/5/19/15561842/trump-russia-louise-mensch

Martin Gisser

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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #1805 on: November 26, 2017, 02:29:01 PM »
Interesting! Especially her claim in the last sentence that it was Russia that ordered services from Cambridge Analytica (my italics).
My hypothesis is that it was the other way around, that CA/Mercer/Bannon  initiated these scheme to cooperate with the troll factory in Russia, and that it was the alt-right in the US+UK that was running these schemes. They were using internet resources, programmers and posters in Russia for reasons such as low cost of labour, skilled IT people,
Yes, that's what I would also like to think. (Once I've worked for a company in Germany who bought crucial Russian IT developers. The dev dept in Samara had more engineers than in Germany.)

But I have difficulties applying Occam's razor here. There are too many other hints, things don't just look like simple IT business with Russians. We have to wait for Mueller presenting his cases. And then, hopefully the European spies publish some of their evidence, too.

Quote
The question remains, where is the evidence to support this claim by Louise Mensch ?
Somehow she has more connections to the spies than anybody else. She is often months ahead the main stream media. But also sometimes wrong. But not too wrong to just dismiss her as a conspiracy theory peddler.
Quote
Supposedly, she is just spreading anti-Russian propaganda

I don't seriously follow the Twitter mud slinging fest around Louise, her friends and her foes. Some of this spills over, as into this Vox article...
« Last Edit: November 26, 2017, 02:41:15 PM by Martin Gisser »

Alexander555

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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #1806 on: November 26, 2017, 03:35:08 PM »
So you guys think that these voters are so mentaly weak. That they could not make up their mind without what they see on the internet. The only real influence are these illegal alliens walking on US soil. Because you know in front for who they will vote, the vast majority. These illegals, they are election fraude.

AbruptSLR

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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #1807 on: November 26, 2017, 04:56:42 PM »
So you guys think that these voters are so mentaly weak. That they could not make up their mind without what they see on the internet.

The linked SciAm article is entitled: "Will Democracy Survive Big Data and Artificial Intelligence?", and asks questions about our changing 4th Industrial Revolution institutions that are worth thinking about before Machiavellian-types (think Russiagate) impose sub-optimal realities upon us all:

https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/will-democracy-survive-big-data-and-artificial-intelligence/

Extract: "We are in the middle of a technological upheaval that will transform the way society is organized. We must make the right decisions now

Everything will become intelligent; soon we will not only have smart phones, but also smart homes, smart factories and smart cities. Should we also expect these developments to result in smart nations and a smarter planet?

This all has radical economic consequences: in the coming 10 to 20 years around half of today's jobs will be threatened by algorithms. 40% of today's top 500 companies will have vanished in a decade.

One thing is clear: the way in which we organize the economy and society will change fundamentally. We are experiencing the largest transformation since the end of the Second World War; after the automation of production and the creation of self-driving cars the automation of society is next. With this, society is at a crossroads, which promises great opportunities, but also considerable risks. If we take the wrong decisions it could threaten our greatest historical achievements.

Under the label of “nudging,” and on massive scale, governments are trying to steer citizens towards healthier or more environmentally friendly behaviour by means of a "nudge"—a modern form of paternalism. The new, caring government is not only interested in what we do, but also wants to make sure that we do the things that it considers to be right. The magic phrase is "big nudging", which is the combination of big data with nudging. To many, this appears to be a sort of digital scepter that allows one to govern the masses efficiently, without having to involve citizens in democratic processes. Could this overcome vested interests and optimize the course of the world? If so, then citizens could be governed by a data-empowered “wise king”, who would be able to produce desired economic and social outcomes almost as if with a digital magic wand.

But one look at the relevant scientific literature shows that attempts to control opinions, in the sense of their "optimization", are doomed to fail because of the complexity of the problem. The dynamics of the formation of opinions are full of surprises. Nobody knows how the digital magic wand, that is to say the manipulative nudging technique, should best be used. What would have been the right or wrong measure often is apparent only afterwards.

During elections, they might nudge undecided voters towards supporting them—a manipulation that would be hard to detect. Therefore, whoever controls this technology can win elections—by nudging themselves to power.

What undesirable side effects can we expect? In order for manipulation to stay unnoticed, it takes a so-called resonance effect—suggestions that are sufficiently customized to each individual. In this way, local trends are gradually reinforced by repetition, leading all the way to the "filter bubble" or "echo chamber effect": in the end, all you might get is your own opinions reflected back at you. This causes social polarization, resulting in the formation of separate groups that no longer understand each other and find themselves increasingly at conflict with one another. In this way, personalized information can unintentionally destroy social cohesion. This can be currently observed in American politics, where Democrats and Republicans are increasingly drifting apart, so that political compromises become almost impossible. The result is a fragmentation, possibly even a disintegration, of society.

Perhaps even more significant is the fact that manipulative methods change the way we make our decisions. They override the otherwise relevant cultural and social cues, at least temporarily. In summary, the large-scale use of manipulative methods could cause serious social damage, including the brutalization of behavior in the digital world. Who should be held responsible for this?

In a rapidly changing world a super-intelligence can never make perfect decisions (see Fig. 1): systemic complexity is increasing faster than data volumes, which are growing faster than the ability to process them, and data transfer rates are limited. This results in disregarding local knowledge and facts, which are important to reach good solutions. Distributed, local control methods are often superior to centralized approaches, especially in complex systems whose behaviors are highly variable, hardly predictable and not capable of real-time optimization.

In other words: personalized information builds a "filter bubble" around us, a kind of digital prison for our thinking. How could creativity and thinking "out of the box" be possible under such conditions? Ultimately, a centralized system of technocratic behavioral and social control using a super-intelligent information system would result in a new form of dictatorship. Therefore, the top-down controlled society, which comes under the banner of "liberal paternalism," is in principle nothing else than a totalitarian regime with a rosy cover.

Collective intelligence requires a high degree of diversity. This is, however, being reduced by today's personalized information systems, which reinforce trends.

Our society is at a crossroads: If ever more powerful algorithms would be controlled by a few decision-makers and reduce our self-determination, we would fall back in a Feudalism 2.0, as important historical achievements would be lost. Now, however, we have the chance to choose the path to digital democracy or democracy 2.0, which would benefit us all

However, Big Nudging is not suitable to solve many of our problems. This is particularly true for the complexity-related challenges of our world. Although already 90 countries use Nudging, it has not reduced our societal problems - on the contrary. Global warming is progressing. World peace is fragile, and terrorism is on the rise. Cybercrime explodes, and also the economic and debt crisis is not solved in many countries."

See also:

Title: "Government-By-Nudge Is a Global Phenomenon"

http://bigthink.com/Mind-Matters/government-by-nudge-is-a-global-phenomenon

Extract: "Nudges, "choice architecture," social marketing and other non-rational approaches to government are a pretty significant development. After all, these policies replace explicit arguments ("you should get more exercise for these reasons") with hidden persuasion ("in our next building, let's hide the elevator and make the stairs really prominent?"). That's a major change for any democracy. Yet many people are unimpressed, because they think of these policies as a pack of First World Problems. We in the rich world hear of these policies when they're put in place to prompt us to eat less, exercise more, save money for retirement and otherwise act sensibly. How privileged we are to worry about such things, when people in less prosperous countries face beheadings, plane crashes, Ebola or the arrival of jackbooted thugs at 2 a.m. You might think most governments have more pressing things to do than use behavioral research to get citizens to become an organ donor. But if you think that, you are wrong, as this study reveals (pdf). Its authors found non-rational approaches to persuasion are now in use in a large majority of nations—rich, middling and poor."
“It is not the strongest or the most intelligent who will survive but those who can best manage change.”
― Leon C. Megginson

AbruptSLR

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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #1808 on: November 26, 2017, 05:00:28 PM »
Richard Thaler just won the 2017 Nobel prize for economics based on his 'nudge' discussed in my  previous post; which assumes that the general public tends to make 'irrational' economic decisions (largely due to how they deal with the uncertainties of complex situations) and need to be 'nudged' into rational behavior.  But as the first linked article indicates this approach at its best assumes that technocrats (liberal-democratic globalists) know better than the people how to handle decision making in complex situations, while at it's worse this approach can be hi-jacked by isolationist/nationalist populists (like Trump or Putin) to Machiavellian ends (such as stealing the US 2016 elections via covert AI spam-bots such as those used by both the Russians and by Cambridge Analytica, to help Trump will the 2016 US presidential election):

Title: "This year’s economics Nobel winner invented a tool that’s both brilliant and undemocratic"

https://www.vox.com/the-big-idea/2017/10/16/16481836/nudges-thaler-nobel-economics-prize-undemocratic-tool

Extract: "“Nudges” aren’t good for democracy.

Together with his co-author, Harvard Law’s Cass Sunstein, Thaler is responsible for developing and popularizing the notion of “nudges” as a policy tool. Over the past decade, policymakers around the world have taken up Thaler and Sunstein’s ideas, setting up government nudge units and other programs intended to guide people toward choices that are in their best interests. Nudging has become fashionable."

Thaler and Sunstein argue that nudging is a win-win. Unlike traditional regulation, it doesn’t force people to make choices that they don’t want to make. Yet unlike a “laissez faire” approach it doesn’t assume that people should be left to make their own choices free of outside interference. Instead, their approach structures choices so that people are going to be nudged into making the choice that is probably best for them. In Thaler’s description:

if you want to get somebody to do something, make it easy. If you want to get people to eat healthier foods, then put healthier foods in the cafeteria, and make them easier to find, and make them taste better. So in every meeting I say, “Make it easy.”

The problem — as Carnegie Mellon’s Cosma Shalizi and I have discussed elsewhere — is that government-by-nudging amounts to a kind of technocracy, which assumes that experts will know which choices are in the interests of ordinary people better than those people know themselves. This may be true under some circumstances, but it will not be true all of the time, or even most of the time, if there are no good opportunities for those ordinary people to voice their preferences."

See also:

Title: "Nobel prize in economics awarded to Richard Thaler"

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2017/oct/09/nobel-prize-in-economics-richard-thaler

&
Title: "This headline is a nudge to get you to read about Nobel economist Richard Thaler"

https://www.vox.com/policy-and-politics/2017/10/9/16447752/richard-thaler-nobel-explained-economics

Extract: "The message of behavioral economics as a subfield, and Thaler’s work in particular, is sometimes summarized as “humans aren’t rational.” Economics has historically relied heavily on models of behavior where individual agents rationally pursue their goals, and so challenging that central assumption was crucially important, especially when Thaler’s most influential papers on the subject came out in the 1980s.

But “people aren’t rational” is, on its own, a pretty obvious point. The real contribution of Thaler and other behavioral economics researchers, like psychologists Amos Tversky and Daniel Kahneman (a 2002 Nobel laureate), was identifying specific kinds of irrationality that could be predicted and modeled ahead of time. Rationality was always a simplifying assumption in economic models, and even if that assumption is implausible, it’s hard to dislodge without different, usable assumptions to put in its place. Thaler and his fellow researchers helped identified durable biases that could be modeled and used to supplement a purely rational model of human behavior."

“It is not the strongest or the most intelligent who will survive but those who can best manage change.”
― Leon C. Megginson

Martin Gisser

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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #1809 on: November 26, 2017, 06:37:42 PM »
So you guys think that these voters are so mentaly weak.
Obviously they are. While it is human nature to some extent to follow feeling instead of truth, many U.S. voters can only be classified as clinically insane. How else could they vote for a pathological liar like Trump. And when he is done robbing them and giving to the ultrarich, continuing the destruction of the "American dream" - then they will get even more mad and vote for another Trump.

https://www.salon.com/2017/11/22/in-the-battle-against-disinformation-tech-solutions-arent-enough/
Quote
Right-wing propaganda — Russia-funded or not — is effective because people want so badly to believe in it

-------------------
Here I think is a major error on the left: Appealing to truth/facts while forgetting to appeal to feeling/morality. Bernie Sanders seems an excellent exception: He knows how to play the emotions of the mentally weak.

Sigmetnow

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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #1810 on: November 26, 2017, 08:13:35 PM »
Seth Abramson tweeted:

Quote
Here's a good trick question: if you advise 42 million people to visit a website that knowingly traffics in anti-American Russian disinformation, are you an OFFICIAL or UNOFFICIAL "agent of influence" acting in furtherance of the geopolitical ambitions of the Russian government?
https://twitter.com/sethabramson/status/934638059966091265
People who say it cannot be done should not interrupt those who are doing it.

AbruptSLR

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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #1811 on: November 26, 2017, 08:54:22 PM »
I note that:

(a) Nixon colluded with South Vietnam to delay the Paris Peace negotiations until after the 1968 election as Nixon thought that this would help him beat the Democrats (which it may have);

(b) In the 1980 election Ronald Reagan colluded with the Iranian government to delay the release of its American hostages as Reagan thought it would help him beat the Democrats (which it may have).

Thus Trump (as an alt-right representative) may have felt entitled to carry-on this GOP tradition of colluding with foreign governments if it is proven that he colluded with Russia to beat Hillary.
“It is not the strongest or the most intelligent who will survive but those who can best manage change.”
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Buddy

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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #1812 on: November 26, 2017, 10:42:31 PM »
Can Donnie get FCC and DOJ to "deliver" CNN to Murdock?

Keep your eyes 👀 open.  Remember...Donnie wants what short Vladi has...and it starts with control of the media.  And that doesn't happen all at once.  It has been happening since the early 1990's.

Donnie will do ANYTHING to stay in power....ANYTHING.
FOX (RT) News....."The Trump Channel.....where truth and journalism are dead."

Rob Dekker

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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #1813 on: November 27, 2017, 04:28:59 AM »
Michael Flynn was caught re-tweeting Russian propaganda (from the St. Petersburg troll farm) in the days before the election :

https://www.dailykos.com/stories/2017/11/25/1718556/-You-ll-never-guess-Who-Flynn-was-Following-on-Twitter-and-Re-tweeting

Kellyanne Conway and Donald Trump Jr. were already earlier discovered to doing the same thing just before the elections :

https://www.thedailybeast.com/trump-campaign-staffers-pushed-russian-propaganda-days-before-the-election
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Rob Dekker

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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #1814 on: November 27, 2017, 04:45:27 AM »
From the last link, the Russian twitter account @Ten_GOP had 100,000 followers (including Michael Flynn Jr., who retweeted the account 34 times), and it posted some remarkable tweets before Twitter shut it down. For example :

Quote
The [Russian] account [@Ten_GOP] notably pushed for Flynn’s reappointment as Trump’s national security adviser, a job Flynn lost after press revelations that he’d lied about his telephone discussions with the Russian ambassador after the election hacks. It also repeatedly pushed Breitbart-backed talking points, including a fake news story about a gang rape in Twin Falls, Idaho, that merited dozens of articles from Breitbart News.

Russia pushing right-wing fake news articles, and telling us which cabinet positions to fill by whom. Via Twitter.

And that is just ONE of the 2,700 Russian based twitter accounts that interfered in our elections.

You can't make this stuff up, folks.
« Last Edit: November 27, 2017, 05:41:35 AM by Rob Dekker »
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Rob Dekker

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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #1815 on: November 27, 2017, 05:26:10 AM »

This is our planet. This is our time.
Let's not waste either.

Hefaistos

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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #1816 on: November 27, 2017, 08:45:17 AM »

You can't make this stuff up, folks.

We only need to answer the question: Who paid for these 'Russian' accounts? Who ordered these activities?
There is a good rule: 'Follow the money'
Is there a money trail?
Does it lead to Cambridge Analytica, to Mercer or some other alt-right people cooperating/with the troll farms? 

Rob Dekker

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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #1817 on: November 27, 2017, 09:42:41 AM »
Hefaistos, since you previously posted that "I know from personal experience as running an internet business in St.Petersburg", are you still posting from an internet business in St.Petersburg ?
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TerryM

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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #1818 on: November 27, 2017, 01:57:44 PM »

You can't make this stuff up, folks.

We only need to answer the question: Who paid for these 'Russian' accounts? Who ordered these activities?
There is a good rule: 'Follow the money'
Is there a money trail?
Does it lead to Cambridge Analytica, to Mercer or some other alt-right people cooperating/with the troll farms?


As I understand it the US has budgeted some $700 M to interfere with Hungarian elections. Since I've also recently learned that America has always observed international law, it's only reasonable to assume that every country has the same right to interfere with US elections.


If so, Russia is of course above reproach, even if the most outrageous claims of interference were actually to be proven.


http://theduran.com/us-state-department-admits-that-it-plans-to-meddle-in-hungarys-democracy/


President Obama flew to Britain to campaign against Brexit, even to the extent of threatening to destroy Britain's economy should they dare to vote against America's wishes. Is it reasonable to assume that he colluded with the Anti-Exit campaign?


http://time.com/4297361/barack-obama-uk-brexit/


Could this have lead to Brexit leaders openly advising American voters to vote for Trump?

If the ever virtuous US of A has no moral compunctions about interfering with democratic processes around the world, why on earth are they surprised when other countries act in an equally virtuous manner?


I don't recall any backlash when The Globe and Mail, a prominent Canadian newspaper urged American voters to vote for Hillary.


https://www.theglobeandmail.com/opinion/editorials/dear-america-please-dont-vote-for-donald-trump/article32655412/


Of course Russia has always been more influential WRT American voters than Canada. [sarc/] but if anyone connected to Hillary's campaign can be shown to have had dealings with Canadians, a special prosecutor should be appointed to dig out the truth.


If "interfering" in the democratic processes of other countries is business as usual, let's walk away from the whole thing. If "interfering" in the democratic processes of other countries is to be punished, let's go after Canadagate, Britishgate, Obamagate, and a whole bunch more.


Terry

Hefaistos

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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #1819 on: November 27, 2017, 05:28:51 PM »
Hefaistos, since you previously posted that "I know from personal experience as running an internet business in St.Petersburg", are you still posting from an internet business in St.Petersburg ?

I'm not involved in it any more, I'm just happen to know a bit about how internet businesses operate in Russia. Been living in Russia for some eight years, from 1992 in different periods. Also, I'm a researcher in social sciences (PhD in economics at a Swedish University) so have a tendency to be critical about sources and quality of information. There are several things in the Russiagate tale that puzzle me from a rather down-to-earth perspective on Russian life, ethics and culture.
If Russia was indeed involved running schemes against elections in other countries, I would first of all be rather surprised, and secondly I'd never defend such behavior.

Martin Gisser

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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #1820 on: November 27, 2017, 06:01:42 PM »
...and now for some more whataboutism

As I understand it the US has budgeted some $700 M to interfere with Hungarian elections.
Wrong. Try to get some understanding from Breitbart-free sources. E.g.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/business/hungary-accuses-us-of-meddling-by-funding-objective-media/2017/11/15/ff78f314-ca21-11e7-b506-8a10ed11ecf5_story.html
Quote
Hungary accuses US of meddling by funding ‘objective’ media
By Pablo Gorondi | AP November 15

[...]
The U.S. State Department last week called for grant applications from media outlets in Hungary based outside Budapest. One goal of the $700,000 program is to “improve the quality of local traditional and online media and increase the public’s access to reliable and unbiased information.”
[...]
The [alt-right Hungarian] government has helped allies finance the acquisition of media outlets by placing copious state advertising in those publications and hardly any in independent or opposition outlets.

The closure of the leftist daily newspaper Nepszabadsag in Oct. 2016 was a watershed moment in Hungary’s media landscape, which has changed significantly over the past year.

Practically all major newspapers published outside Budapest are now in the hands of pro-government publishers, some of whom also own television or radio stations.

Homework: What is the difference to undercover manipulation of elections? How much of an effect do you expect these $700,000 will make?

Hungaria is drifting to a fascistoid system. It has the highest concentration of Nazis, serious Nazis, in all of Europe - with a little help by Putin and friends. Even Hungarian Hippies can be racist assholes. So, I'm very happy with this development aid by the U.S.A. - but it could be more. (And surely Tillerson will cancel it...) No wonder the Breitbart-o-sphere makes such a fuss out of this midge.
https://www.thedailybeast.com/how-putins-using-hungary-to-destroy-europe

-------------
P.S.: I know a few Hungarians here in Germany, who came for work, and are no Nazis, just a little alt-right manipulated, like Terry. They were very nice buddies. Still, I would happily give this crap nation to Putin, Hungarexit, with a Trumpian wall at the border to European civilization. They need more suffering and violence. And a little Tshernobyl at the Danube river. And then they will turn on Putin and beg for a return to the EU feedlot... Just dreaming.
« Last Edit: November 27, 2017, 06:37:23 PM by Martin Gisser »

Alexander555

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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #1821 on: November 27, 2017, 06:38:17 PM »
Martin, how brainwashed are you ?

Alexander555

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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #1822 on: November 27, 2017, 06:42:26 PM »
And let me tell you something. We have the worst air in Europe. The people that get born sick for the rest of their life goes up as a rocket. Traffic jams get longer every year. At every corner of the street we are getting a mosque. And that's because of people like you. The people that support all the corrupt mass immigration. But that's a bill that you are going to pay.

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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #1823 on: November 27, 2017, 06:48:39 PM »
What's wrong with mosques? Don't worry, consumer culture will take care of religious zealotry.  ;)
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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #1824 on: November 27, 2017, 09:57:01 PM »

You can't make this stuff up, folks.

We only need to answer the question: Who paid for these 'Russian' accounts? Who ordered these activities?
There is a good rule: 'Follow the money'
Is there a money trail?
Does it lead to Cambridge Analytica, to Mercer or some other alt-right people cooperating/with the troll farms?


As I understand it the US has budgeted some $700 M to interfere with Hungarian elections. Since I've also recently learned that America has always observed international law, it's only reasonable to assume that every country has the same right to interfere with US elections.


If so, Russia is of course above reproach, even if the most outrageous claims of interference were actually to be proven.


http://theduran.com/us-state-department-admits-that-it-plans-to-meddle-in-hungarys-democracy/


President Obama flew to Britain to campaign against Brexit, even to the extent of threatening to destroy Britain's economy should they dare to vote against America's wishes. Is it reasonable to assume that he colluded with the Anti-Exit campaign?


http://time.com/4297361/barack-obama-uk-brexit/


Could this have lead to Brexit leaders openly advising American voters to vote for Trump?

If the ever virtuous US of A has no moral compunctions about interfering with democratic processes around the world, why on earth are they surprised when other countries act in an equally virtuous manner?


I don't recall any backlash when The Globe and Mail, a prominent Canadian newspaper urged American voters to vote for Hillary.


https://www.theglobeandmail.com/opinion/editorials/dear-america-please-dont-vote-for-donald-trump/article32655412/


Of course Russia has always been more influential WRT American voters than Canada. [sarc/] but if anyone connected to Hillary's campaign can be shown to have had dealings with Canadians, a special prosecutor should be appointed to dig out the truth.


If "interfering" in the democratic processes of other countries is business as usual, let's walk away from the whole thing. If "interfering" in the democratic processes of other countries is to be punished, let's go after Canadagate, Britishgate, Obamagate, and a whole bunch more.


Terry

Please, if you'd take a moment to look at your own "sources," you'd see that theduran.com is NOT the origin of this information.  They got it from thegatewaypundit.com.  If you check that source, they got it from Breitbart.  And not a  shred of evidence that Soros is behind anything.  This is the mangled output from uncritically spewing fourth-hand information.

There's also no clear indication that this $700,000 (not millions) is about influencing any election.  It's a response to severe controls on media by the Hungarian government.

Whether that's kosher or not may be debatable.  But this is all 100% in the open, with public plans and public media production.  I don't see it as fundamentally different from broadcasting RT in the US, or even France24.

This is all fundamentally different from covert, illegal plans to shift election results.

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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #1825 on: November 27, 2017, 10:16:19 PM »
And let me tell you something. We have the worst air in Europe. The people that get born sick for the rest of their life goes up as a rocket. Traffic jams get longer every year. At every corner of the street we are getting a mosque. And that's because of people like you. The people that support all the corrupt mass immigration. But that's a bill that you are going to pay.

I'm curious to know exactly what it was that lead you to the conclusion that an internet forum dedicated to discussing the declining state of Arctic ice was the best place for islamophobic, xenophobic rantings. Were Breitbart, Townhall, and Twitchy offline or something? Seriously: relax. And be respectful; comments such as "Martin, how brainwashed are you?" might work at WND, but they aren't going to fly here.

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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #1826 on: November 27, 2017, 10:32:40 PM »
Jim, in my P.S. I was also disrespectful and over the top and provoked Alexander's reply. Apologies. Actually, rural East Germany is also full of Nazis, to the extent that it is no longer an option for living there. Thus my allergic reaction. (But note, he confirms my rant a bit: Classical Orban exploit of xenophobia - which started before the big refugee stream came to Europe.)

-----------------------------

Back to topic: Who employs the Russian trolls? Here is a new hint it is not Cambridge Analytica. They also propagate alt-right stuff in German:

https://www.buzzfeed.com/tomphillips/we-found-45-suspected-bot-accounts-sharing-pro-trump-pro
Quote
Twitter Has Suspended Another 45 Suspected Propaganda Accounts After They Were Flagged By BuzzFeed News

BuzzFeed News has uncovered a new network of suspected Twitter propaganda accounts – sharing messages about Brexit, Donald Trump, and Angela Merkel – that have close connections to the Russian-linked bot accounts identified by the social media platform in its evidence to the US Congress.

The 45 suspect accounts were uncovered through basic analysis of those that interacted or retweeted accounts cited by Twitter to Congress, yet none of them appeared on the company's list.

The relative ease of discovery raises serious questions as to just how many Russian-linked bots may still be active on Twitter, [...]

[...]

« Last Edit: November 27, 2017, 10:42:19 PM by Martin Gisser »

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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #1827 on: November 28, 2017, 01:08:50 AM »
I agree that this Forum is mostly for left-leaning folks who are now - having practically won the battle with climate risk deniers - discussing/fighting over what is the best way to move forward. There isn't much room for right-wing opinions*, because it's tough enough as it is to keep the political discord at a minimum.

Thanks to everyone, BTW, for hanging on nevertheless. I think it's useful to have these discussions, even though they aren't particularly enjoyable (I don't like to disagree with people I like).

* I won't dismiss all of them out of hand, as there is always context, etc, and right-leaning people need to be part of the solutions as well (we're waiting for one with the guts to cut through the BS, but the wackos are still running the asylum).
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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #1828 on: November 28, 2017, 02:41:30 AM »
Hopefully, Flynn has something worthwhile to trade for a plea bargain deal:

Title: "Flynn's attorney reportedly met with Mueller's team Monday, suggesting plea talks are underway"

https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/politics/flynns-attorney-reportedly-met-with-muellers-team-monday-suggesting-plea-talks-are-underway/ar-BBFQ0Km?ocid=spartandhp
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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #1829 on: November 28, 2017, 03:48:28 AM »
Hopefully, Flynn has something worthwhile to trade for a plea bargain deal:

Title: "Flynn's attorney reportedly met with Mueller's team Monday, suggesting plea talks are underway"

There are only three people 'above' Flynn that he could have info on that he could plea bargain with:

Ivanka Trump, Jared Kushner, and Donald J. Trump himself.....
From these three, Flynn was closest to Trump himself.

This is getting really interesting....
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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #1830 on: November 28, 2017, 04:39:09 AM »
Mike Flynn yelling "Lock Her Up"



Ohhh. The irony.
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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #1831 on: November 28, 2017, 04:44:36 AM »
Yea.......ole Mikey Flynn's remark of "lock her up" is certainly a classic.  One of my favorites...😂
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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #1832 on: November 28, 2017, 04:47:04 AM »
Hopefully, Flynn has something worthwhile to trade for a plea bargain deal:

Title: "Flynn's attorney reportedly met with Mueller's team Monday, suggesting plea talks are underway"

There are only three people 'above' Flynn that he could have info on that he could plea bargain with:

Ivanka Trump, Jared Kushner, and Donald J. Trump himself.....
From these three, Flynn was closest to Trump himself.

This is getting really interesting....

VP Pence is also in play.  The man is a pathological liar, in a different fashion than Trump, but more insidious as he does it smoothly and surrounds himself with piety and faux morality.

Is Mike Pence wrapped up in the Russia scandal — or a gullible rube?

https://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/right-turn/wp/2017/11/15/is-mike-pence-wrapped-up-in-the-russia-scandal-or-just-a-gullible-rube/?utm_term=.fd2948e18b7f

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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #1833 on: November 28, 2017, 04:58:18 AM »
I agree that this Forum is mostly for left-leaning folks who are now - having practically won the battle with climate risk deniers - discussing/fighting over what is the best way to move forward. There isn't much room for right-wing opinions*, because it's tough enough as it is to keep the political discord at a minimum.

Thanks to everyone, BTW, for hanging on nevertheless. I think it's useful to have these discussions, even though they aren't particularly enjoyable (I don't like to disagree with people I like).

I used to think of my opinions as being right-leaning. Like the common-sense of a free market and limited influence of government and support of science in policy making.
But it seems that my opinions are now considered left-leaning.
It appears that the entire spectrum of politics shifted over, rather than my opinions.

Either way, Neven, I think you shouldn't judge commenters are left-leaning or right-leaning. Instead, judge them by how well they represent the facts. Do they reference a source, and if so where there fact checks done on the story.

That is a much better metric than judging them for left-leaning or right-leaning, in my opinion.

Here is a very good reminder of how that (fact based reasoning) works :

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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #1834 on: November 28, 2017, 04:59:45 AM »
"left leaning folk"? This is not about symmetry, it is about the truth and lies and intentional divisiveness. I've removed my remark. [I wrote this before I saw Rob's note; John Oliver is wicked good (Boston slang, which reminds me people not living here in the US don't suffer from what I compare to battered woman syndrome from the neverending attacks becoming ever more common here)]

I don't regard caring about earth and other human beings as a left or right issue.
« Last Edit: November 28, 2017, 05:11:54 AM by Susan Anderson »

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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #1836 on: November 28, 2017, 07:13:17 AM »
I'm a researcher in social sciences (PhD in economics at a Swedish University)...

How does a Phd in economics from Sweden end up working for an Internet company in St.Petersburg ? Are you native Russian ?
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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #1837 on: November 28, 2017, 07:38:18 AM »
Maybe getting a bit off-topic here, but maybe not.
Trump appears to hand Putin anything he wants.
For example, Trump's (non-existing) policy on Syria :

Trump already gave Putin a hand-out in favor of Assad, when he cancelled US support for the Free Syrian Army, back a few months ago.

Now Trump also unilaterally cancelled arm support for the Kurds, the last possible resistance against Assad in Syria, simply handing over control in Syria to Putin. And Ukraine may be coming up :

https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/global-opinions/putins-proposal-for-ukraine-is-another-trap-for-trump/2017/11/26/2b238622-cfc3-11e7-9d3a-bcbe2af58c3a_story.html

Trump seems to just give away favors to Putin and Assad, without asking anything in return.
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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #1838 on: November 28, 2017, 02:23:14 PM »
"If Russia was indeed involved in other countries elections I would be surprised..."

Really.  You would be suprised by Russia intruding in elections of NATO countries?  Would also be suprised if Russia is actively spying on other countries as well?

Would you be suprised if the Russian government targets and murders journalists?  Would you be surprised if Putin tries to muzzle free speech in Russia?

Would you be suprised if short little Vladi is trying to expand its territorial footprint?

You must have been very suprised over the last 10 years...

Again....are you paid in rubbles or krona?
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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #1839 on: November 28, 2017, 08:41:34 PM »
"If Russia was indeed involved in other countries elections I would be surprised..."

Really.  You would be suprised by Russia intruding in elections of NATO countries?  Would also be suprised if Russia is actively spying on other countries as well?

Would you be suprised if the Russian government targets and murders journalists?  Would you be surprised if Putin tries to muzzle free speech in Russia?

Would you be suprised if short little Vladi is trying to expand its territorial footprint?

You must have been very suprised over the last 10 years...

Again....are you paid in rubbles or krona?

Sorry Buddy, I'm unpaid! I'm asking my questions for free, can you imagine?! And even replying to your rather impolite posting...
You know, I'm just curious. I don't like it when mass media spreads unfounded allegations, when I feel manipulated to believe a stupid story by the unified intelligence agencies in the US (the ICA report from January-17), when journalists don't even try to be critical to some really fundamental issues with this Russiagate thing. We're still lacking even one single piece of evidence that the Russian government ('The Kremlin') is involved in any of these 'Russiagate' activities.
The market for internet services is a free market in Russia. Anyone can go there and set up a company, hire programmers, run internet services. Serve clients abroad. I know about these things, not only because I have been living for 8 years in Russia, but also from building a small internet business in St.Petersburg, serving international clients. I talk fluent Russian, I hired programmers myself, etc.
That Russian private internet media companies were involved in trolling social media in the West doesn't prove a yota about the Kremlin being involved. On the contrary, I'd say it's pretty unlikely that the Kremlin would even consider running an open scheme like that. They also don't have much of a motive for extensive schemes intended to stoke social discontent in various Western countries.
Who has the greater motive here? I'd say, the alt-right oligarchs. Some of them from the US, like Mercer, some of them from other countries. Some of them might be Ukrainian, some might be Russian. I'd say, start digging for links from these powerful people to the troll farms, try to follow the money trail. I'm pretty sure the money trail goes to the West, to alt-right oligarchs, to Cambridge Analytica/Mercer, - and not to Moscow. Maybe/hopefully, Mueller will dig smth up.

As to your questions, no, I wouldn't be surprised by any of those claims, except for the first one.
« Last Edit: November 28, 2017, 09:13:29 PM by Hefaistos »

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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #1840 on: November 28, 2017, 09:16:15 PM »
I'm a researcher in social sciences (PhD in economics at a Swedish University)...

How does a Phd in economics from Sweden end up working for an Internet company in St.Petersburg ? Are you native Russian ?
1. It happens.
2. No, I'm a Swede, family dating back to the 13th century.

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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #1841 on: November 29, 2017, 03:39:32 AM »
As to your questions, no, I wouldn't be surprised by any of those claims, except for the first one.

Of course you are allowed to have your own opinion, but your insistence that Russia (the Kremlin specifically) would not be meddling in the elections in NATO countries (including the US 2016 elections) is quite surprising.

I think it was sidd who pointed out (up this thread) that Russia was involved in intervention in foreign election in 36 cases between 1946 and 2000. Why not this time ?

Also, there are reports that Russia was meddling in the elections of 27 countries since 2004. Here for example :
https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/world/2017/09/07/alleged-russian-political-meddling-documented-27-countries-since-2004/619056001/

And also, there is plenty evidence that the Kremlin was directly meddling in the US 2016 elections :

Take the DNC hack for example. CrowdStrike determined that that was a Fancy Bear job. Fancy Bear is quite clearly sponsored by the Russian government. The GRU specifically.

According to SecureWorks, the Podesta email hack started with a 'phishing' email also by Fancy Bear .

I could go on (and I did previously in this thread), but I don't want to repeat myself. At this point I'm curious to know WHY you so desperately want to deny Kremlin involvement when the available evidence points exactly at that ?
« Last Edit: November 29, 2017, 04:09:38 AM by Rob Dekker »
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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #1842 on: November 29, 2017, 06:33:55 AM »

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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #1843 on: November 29, 2017, 08:41:43 AM »
Why Credico ? Stone connections ?

I think so. From the article :

Quote
The relationship with Assange eventually developed into a series of meetings at the Ecuadoran embassy in London. These encounters fueled online rumors accusing Credico of serving as a courier between the notoriously Machiavellian former Trump campaign advisor, Roger Stone, and Assange.

Probably the House Intelligence Committee wants to hear Credico's story on this.
I don't think he has anything to worry about, and should talk to them.

[edit] If he refuses, it could be considered obstruction of justice, and then he is in real trouble.
« Last Edit: November 29, 2017, 08:52:20 AM by Rob Dekker »
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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #1844 on: November 29, 2017, 09:05:25 PM »

You can't make this stuff up, folks.

We only need to answer the question: Who paid for these 'Russian' accounts? Who ordered these activities?
There is a good rule: 'Follow the money'
Is there a money trail?
Does it lead to Cambridge Analytica, to Mercer or some other alt-right people cooperating/with the troll farms?


As I understand it the US has budgeted some $700 M to interfere with Hungarian elections. Since I've also recently learned that America has always observed international law, it's only reasonable to assume that every country has the same right to interfere with US elections.


If so, Russia is of course above reproach, even if the most outrageous claims of interference were actually to be proven.


http://theduran.com/us-state-department-admits-that-it-plans-to-meddle-in-hungarys-democracy/


President Obama flew to Britain to campaign against Brexit, even to the extent of threatening to destroy Britain's economy should they dare to vote against America's wishes. Is it reasonable to assume that he colluded with the Anti-Exit campaign?


http://time.com/4297361/barack-obama-uk-brexit/


Could this have lead to Brexit leaders openly advising American voters to vote for Trump?

If the ever virtuous US of A has no moral compunctions about interfering with democratic processes around the world, why on earth are they surprised when other countries act in an equally virtuous manner?


I don't recall any backlash when The Globe and Mail, a prominent Canadian newspaper urged American voters to vote for Hillary.


https://www.theglobeandmail.com/opinion/editorials/dear-america-please-dont-vote-for-donald-trump/article32655412/


Of course Russia has always been more influential WRT American voters than Canada. [sarc/] but if anyone connected to Hillary's campaign can be shown to have had dealings with Canadians, a special prosecutor should be appointed to dig out the truth.


If "interfering" in the democratic processes of other countries is business as usual, let's walk away from the whole thing. If "interfering" in the democratic processes of other countries is to be punished, let's go after Canadagate, Britishgate, Obamagate, and a whole bunch more.


Terry

Please, if you'd take a moment to look at your own "sources," you'd see that theduran.com is NOT the origin of this information.  They got it from thegatewaypundit.com.  If you check that source, they got it from Breitbart.  And not a  shred of evidence that Soros is behind anything.  This is the mangled output from uncritically spewing fourth-hand information.

There's also no clear indication that this $700,000 (not millions) is about influencing any election.  It's a response to severe controls on media by the Hungarian government.

Whether that's kosher or not may be debatable.  But this is all 100% in the open, with public plans and public media production.  I don't see it as fundamentally different from broadcasting RT in the US, or even France24.

This is all fundamentally different from covert, illegal plans to shift election results.
Apologize for the uncorrected typo, but doubt that I'm terribly manipulated, especially by the right!

Why would you take the information posted back to a source you don't like, assume it's BS, and post that I'm manipulated?Go the extra mile and source the information back to the State Departmenthttps://www.state.gov/j/drl/p/275396.htm

Did you note the D.3.1 Exemptions, where "An applicant’s identity must be protected due to potential endangerment of their mission, their organization’s status, their employees, or individuals being served by the applicant."

Doesn't sound terribly overt, does it?


Or, perhaps get a Hungarian perspective
https://thehungaryjournal.wordpress.com/2017/11/14/foreign-ministry-summons-the-us-charge-daffaires/amp/


Where the head of the ruling party is quoted as saying "it is an attempt to interfere in Hungarian domestic affairs."


The fact is that the information is true, regardless of the source.


I'd also like to opine that it really doesn't matter, since Hungary took out large media buys in Britain during the Brexit vote. - Good for the goose, and all of that.


https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2016-06-19/hungary-plans-u-k-media-ads-urging-britons-to-remain-in-eu
They were against Brexit, if that matters.


Is a $700k investment to change the mindset of Hungarians comparable to a $100k Russian buy in Facebook pages, some of which consist of puppy pictures?
No.
But who cares. Every country attempts to manipulate other countries. It's the way the world works.


Think of me as a Susan Sarandonesk left wing hack. Very far to the left, and very far from Hillary.
Terry

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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #1845 on: November 30, 2017, 12:54:09 AM »
Here in the states....you can see and feel another "wave" of bad news that Donnie is getting caught up in.

If you remember back nine or ten months ago...I said this was a "process" and it could take quite some time.  People don't want to admit the made a mistake in choosing Trump...and they are SLOWLY falling off.  As more news from investigative journalists spill out...they will continue their SLOW march away.

It is almost a carbon copy of how Nixon was slowly pushed from office....and Nixon continued to play the game until Barry Goldwater marched over to the Oval Office and gave him an ultimatum:  Quit or we'll remove you.  He quit shortly thereafter.

I expect Donnie to go out the same way.  And he will continue on as long as he can.  If he can try to stretch it until the next election...he will.

I DONT expect that he can do that...too many things stacked against him...and once we get into spring.....I expect support to slip further.

And we still don't know how crazy he is.  I am hoping we won't find out...😳
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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #1846 on: November 30, 2017, 01:52:24 AM »

You can't make this stuff up, folks.

We only need to answer the question: Who paid for these 'Russian' accounts? Who ordered these activities?
There is a good rule: 'Follow the money'
Is there a money trail?
Does it lead to Cambridge Analytica, to Mercer or some other alt-right people cooperating/with the troll farms?


As I understand it the US has budgeted some $700 M to interfere with Hungarian elections. Since I've also recently learned that America has always observed international law, it's only reasonable to assume that every country has the same right to interfere with US elections.


If so, Russia is of course above reproach, even if the most outrageous claims of interference were actually to be proven.


http://theduran.com/us-state-department-admits-that-it-plans-to-meddle-in-hungarys-democracy/


President Obama flew to Britain to campaign against Brexit, even to the extent of threatening to destroy Britain's economy should they dare to vote against America's wishes. Is it reasonable to assume that he colluded with the Anti-Exit campaign?


http://time.com/4297361/barack-obama-uk-brexit/


Could this have lead to Brexit leaders openly advising American voters to vote for Trump?

If the ever virtuous US of A has no moral compunctions about interfering with democratic processes around the world, why on earth are they surprised when other countries act in an equally virtuous manner?


I don't recall any backlash when The Globe and Mail, a prominent Canadian newspaper urged American voters to vote for Hillary.


https://www.theglobeandmail.com/opinion/editorials/dear-america-please-dont-vote-for-donald-trump/article32655412/


Of course Russia has always been more influential WRT American voters than Canada. [sarc/] but if anyone connected to Hillary's campaign can be shown to have had dealings with Canadians, a special prosecutor should be appointed to dig out the truth.


If "interfering" in the democratic processes of other countries is business as usual, let's walk away from the whole thing. If "interfering" in the democratic processes of other countries is to be punished, let's go after Canadagate, Britishgate, Obamagate, and a whole bunch more.


Terry

Please, if you'd take a moment to look at your own "sources," you'd see that theduran.com is NOT the origin of this information.  They got it from thegatewaypundit.com.  If you check that source, they got it from Breitbart.  And not a  shred of evidence that Soros is behind anything.  This is the mangled output from uncritically spewing fourth-hand information.

There's also no clear indication that this $700,000 (not millions) is about influencing any election.  It's a response to severe controls on media by the Hungarian government.

Whether that's kosher or not may be debatable.  But this is all 100% in the open, with public plans and public media production.  I don't see it as fundamentally different from broadcasting RT in the US, or even France24.

This is all fundamentally different from covert, illegal plans to shift election results.
Apologize for the uncorrected typo, but doubt that I'm terribly manipulated, especially by the right!

Why would you take the information posted back to a source you don't like, assume it's BS, and post that I'm manipulated?Go the extra mile and source the information back to the State Departmenthttps://www.state.gov/j/drl/p/275396.htm

Did you note the D.3.1 Exemptions, where "An applicant’s identity must be protected due to potential endangerment of their mission, their organization’s status, their employees, or individuals being served by the applicant."

Doesn't sound terribly overt, does it?


Or, perhaps get a Hungarian perspective
https://thehungaryjournal.wordpress.com/2017/11/14/foreign-ministry-summons-the-us-charge-daffaires/amp/


Where the head of the ruling party is quoted as saying "it is an attempt to interfere in Hungarian domestic affairs."


The fact is that the information is true, regardless of the source.


I'd also like to opine that it really doesn't matter, since Hungary took out large media buys in Britain during the Brexit vote. - Good for the goose, and all of that.


https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2016-06-19/hungary-plans-u-k-media-ads-urging-britons-to-remain-in-eu
They were against Brexit, if that matters.


Is a $700k investment to change the mindset of Hungarians comparable to a $100k Russian buy in Facebook pages, some of which consist of puppy pictures?
No.
But who cares. Every country attempts to manipulate other countries. It's the way the world works.


Think of me as a Susan Sarandonesk left wing hack. Very far to the left, and very far from Hillary.
Terry


Terry,
My point wasn't about your political leanings or vulnerabilities.  Primarily, I was objecting to using 4th-hand news sources.  Such wouldn't be acceptable in scientific discussions here, and they shouldn't be used in political discussions, either.

"The fact is that the information is true, regardless of the source."

No, the information isn't clearly true.  The Hungarian government *claims* that the public, open US government funding opportunity is intended to undermine the current government in upcoming elections.  It doesn't present any evidence to support the allegation.  The actual NoFO (notice of funding opportunity) says nothing of the sort. It's about opening up media to open information, not about skewing elections.

Mind you, I wouldn't be shocked if the information disseminated by the grantee were anti-government in content.  But we shouldn't convict the suspect in advance of the crime.

If the underlying intent were to undermine the current Hungarian government, it really wouldn't be funded openly by a public grant, it would be funded covertly by the CIA.

The language you cite to suggest the NoFO is a covert effort doesn't make sense.  If you perform a simple Google search for the phrasing, you'll see that it appears to be standard boilerplate for the agency's publicized grant offerings.  Covert efforts aren't published this way.

Opening up media access in Hungary isn't a malicious act.  It isn't covert.  It isn't clearly inappropriate in any way.


Rob Dekker

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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #1847 on: November 30, 2017, 04:27:55 AM »
Did you note the D.3.1 Exemptions, where "An applicant’s identity must be protected due to potential endangerment of their mission, their organization’s status, their employees, or individuals being served by the applicant."

Doesn't sound terribly overt, does it?


Please, Terry. Did you deliberately leave out the part that comes in front of this sentence, or was it another oversight on your part ?
From the US grant link :

Quote
An exemption from these requirements may be permitted on a case-by-case basis if:

An applicant’s identity must be protected due to potential endangerment of their mission, their organization’s status, their employees, or individuals being served by the applicant.

Notice the if part ?
That is to account for the case that the Hungarian government wants to crack down on this effort to stimulate open, unbiased journalism.

And that situation is not hypothetical. Hungary's government has almost all media under control now, and does not accept ANY criticism of its policy.

For example, see how the  Hungary government responded to some criticism by Chargé d’Affaires of the US to Hungary David Kostelancik, specifically about the suppression of a free press in Hungary :

Quote
“Government allies have steadily acquired control and influence over the media market, without objection from the regulatory body designed to prevent monopolies. Most recently, companies affiliated with pro-government figures acquired control of the last remaining independent regional newspapers.”

– Kostelancik told journalists.

“Journalists who work for these outlets— or who used to work for these outlets—tell us that they must follow pro-government editorial guidelines dictated by the outlets’ new owners, and that they do not have the freedom to publish articles that are critical of the government.”

This is how the Foreign ministry state secretary Levente Magyar responded :

https://thehungaryjournal.wordpress.com/2017/10/18/foreign-ministry-summons-us-charge-daffaires/

Quote
“Americans should not only forbear from making false claims but from making any comments at all on developments in Hungary.”

In other words, the US should shut up, and not have ANY criticism of Hungary's government.
So much for freedom of expression in Hungary...

Similar criticism of the media developments in Hungary by the Dutch ambassador actually caused Hungary to suspend diplomatic ties with the Netherlands.

And it is not just freedom of speech that is under attack by the government of Hungary.
Human Rights are quickly degrading as well :

https://budapestbeacon.com/amnesty-international-annual-report-criticizes-hungary-disappointing-european-country-human-rights/
This is our planet. This is our time.
Let's not waste either.

Hefaistos

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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #1848 on: November 30, 2017, 07:56:03 AM »
As to your questions, no, I wouldn't be surprised by any of those claims, except for the first one.

Of course you are allowed to have your own opinion, but your insistence that Russia (the Kremlin specifically) would not be meddling in the elections in NATO countries (including the US 2016 elections) is quite surprising.

I think it was sidd who pointed out (up this thread) that Russia was involved in intervention in foreign election in 36 cases between 1946 and 2000. Why not this time ?

Also, there are reports that Russia was meddling in the elections of 27 countries since 2004. Here for example :
https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/world/2017/09/07/alleged-russian-political-meddling-documented-27-countries-since-2004/619056001/

And also, there is plenty evidence that the Kremlin was directly meddling in the US 2016 elections :

Take the DNC hack for example. CrowdStrike determined that that was a Fancy Bear job. Fancy Bear is quite clearly sponsored by the Russian government. The GRU specifically.

According to SecureWorks, the Podesta email hack started with a 'phishing' email also by Fancy Bear .

I could go on (and I did previously in this thread), but I don't want to repeat myself. At this point I'm curious to know WHY you so desperately want to deny Kremlin involvement when the available evidence points exactly at that ?

The technical evidence conflicts the theory that the DNC hack was done by the Kremlin/GRU, as has been shown by, e.g.:
http://g-2.space/
https://nef4rhc.wordpress.com/
The latter report has been received by the offices of Special Council Mueller, Deputy Attorney General Rod J. Rosenstein, as well as House and Senate Intelligence Committees, and the Senate Judiciary Committee.

Rob Dekker

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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #1849 on: November 30, 2017, 08:22:32 AM »
The technical evidence conflicts the theory that the DNC hack was done by the Kremlin/GRU, as has been shown by, e.g.:
http://g-2.space/
https://nef4rhc.wordpress.com/
The latter report has been received by the offices of Special Council Mueller, Deputy Attorney General Rod J. Rosenstein, as well as House and Senate Intelligence Committees, and the Senate Judiciary Committee.

Jeez, Hefaistos. You are really determined.
That "latter report" is from nef4rhc.wordpress.com.
Now I read that report and it is one huge pile of crap.

They don't even link to the reports that they are contesting, for one.
And for the alternative they are suggesting ("The purported July 05 2016 “hack” by Guccifer 2.0 of DNC was a purposeful “leak.”), that is BS on so many accounts. First, there is no evidence that the 'hack' was done July 5, second, there is no evidence it was done by internet entity "Guccifer 2.0", and third, there is no evidence that it was a "leak".

All we know is that the files were copied on July 5 (and that only IF the computer on which they were copied was set to real time).

And who is nef4rhc.wordpress.com anyway ? And when exactly did they post this pile of crap ?

To repeat : at this point I'm curious to know WHY you so desperately want to deny Kremlin involvement when the available evidence points exactly at that ?
This is our planet. This is our time.
Let's not waste either.