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TerryM

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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #1950 on: December 03, 2017, 10:07:07 PM »
Neven, re US MSM, I'm erratic about watching, but I'd say maximum coverage goes to things like Prince Harry's engagement and there's a lot about the latest sexual predator (proven or not*) and the latest cute animal story, along with sports. In other words, the trivial gets equal time, and the total news is minimal.

There has been huge success in painting the honest part of the press as liars and lies as the "real" truth. They've gotten really good at it. We saw the birth of this effort in denial over the last decades, but they've honed it.

There is a deep divide, in that much of the country doesn't watch anything to the left of Fox, which doesn't present reality at all. Maria Bartiromo (note spelling) is part of that side of things.

re network: ABC, NBC, CBS, FOX and public television, and some entertainment spinoffs, are available without a subscription. MSNBC and CNN are cable and require a cable subscription. Sports is also mostly covered by subscription.

*Note: I'm all for women getting a voice, but it is being used to distract and Republicans are very good at treating relatively small misdeeds as important while ignoring the beam in their own eye.


Re the bolded.
My fear is that in recent years both sides have been guilty of building mountains out of molehills. There was a time, I believe, when a person could listen to the hysterics emanating from the Right, compare it to the reasoned arguments from the Left, and readily establish who the adults were. Rush Limbaugh is now just a shrill voice from the Right, our side now answers in kind.


So much attention has been focused on minutia that rather than not seeing the forest for the trees, we're asked to focus on a particular bent branch, when the health of the forest itself is in question.


You and I share a vision for the future, even though we differ on how best to attain that vision.
We will suffer at least another year with Republicans controlling every facet of federal government. Given free reign, there is a chance, perhaps a good chance, that they will overplay their hand and cause the Independents as well as the Democratic voters to react in horror. What are we doing now to assure that we win the House and Senate in 2018?


We're attacking Trump, but should we possibly be emphasizing the fact that if we had a Democratic House, or a Democratic Senate, these Republican programs wouldn't be given a chance, regardless of who sits in the White House or who holds sway in the Supreme Court?


If we succeeded in impeaching Trump, who would claim the victory? The Democrats who voted against their traditional opponent, or the Republicans who voted against one of their own, for the good of all Americans? I can hear the praises now, and they aren't being sung to the Democrats.


We need wins at the state level in 2018, but if anyone is talking about these races it's being lost in the din that anti Trump zealots are making. We don't need a respectable showing, we don't need to do well, we need a landslide at the state level or we'll be Gerrymandered off the map in 2020.


We've less than a year to turn the tables in 2018. When does the campaigning begin?
Terry

Alexander555

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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #1951 on: December 03, 2017, 10:30:56 PM »
How is that campaign going to look like ? A mud fight probably in the best case scenario.

Martin Gisser

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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #1952 on: December 03, 2017, 10:58:40 PM »
How is that campaign going to look like ? A mud fight probably in the best case scenario.
Can't get muddier than last year. AND NO, this is certainly not a f-ing matter of f-ing "both sides"... (Like, heck :) e.g. Russiagate vs. Pizzagate. BTW, did you know Hillary has a cannibal friend - whatshername...)
"The universe is irrelevant for all practical purpose, so better forget about being thrown into it." --Florifulgurator

Martin Gisser

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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #1953 on: December 03, 2017, 11:15:42 PM »
MSNBC and CNN are cable and require a cable subscription. [...]

*Note: I'm all for women getting a voice, but it is being used to distract and Republicans are very good at treating relatively small misdeeds as important while ignoring the beam in their own eye.
At home (Germany) I get MSNBC for free (via India?).
http://www.livenewson.com/american/msnbc.html
... Oh! looks like it also works at the present parking place at the Autobahn near Grenoble (but I might pay dearly for the data traffic). --- Now onward to some tree planting in the Pyrenees south of Andorra... :-)

*Yes: And Trump is sort of an antichrist in the art of beam&splinter, the master manipulator of the both-siders...hmmm...  Also: Is he a genius manipulator of the paranoid (from 9/11 (Trump was the first of 9/11 wackos) to birtherism (he's even warming that up again)) -- or is he just himself, clinically insane...? --- What a phenomenon!
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sidd

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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #1954 on: December 04, 2017, 01:55:08 AM »
Re: state races 2018

Cordray, who just stepped down from CFPB, intends to run for ohio governor in 2018.

http://www.cleveland.com/politics/index.ssf/2017/07/richard_cordray_is_running_for.html

Sued bank of america and AIG while he was ohio attorney general. CFPB tenure was also militant. Go, Cordray.

Dunno if he can beat Kasich, though but he has the best chance of all D candidates i think.

sidd

AbruptSLR

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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #1955 on: December 04, 2017, 03:32:41 AM »
How much information has Flynn helped Mueller to acquire covertly?

Title: "Was Michael Flynn asked to wear a wire in Mueller hunt for evidence on Russia?"

https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2017/dec/03/michael-flynn-plea-agreement-mueller-Russia

Extract: "Plea agreement includes clause showing Flynn consented to participate in ‘covert law enforcement activities” if required
...
Section eight of the deal reached by Donald Trump’s former national security adviser in the inquiry into Russian meddling in the US election is entitled “cooperation”. It specifies that as well as answering questions and submitting to government-administered polygraph tests, Flynn’s cooperation “may include … participating in covert law enforcement activities”."
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TerryM

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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #1956 on: December 04, 2017, 04:09:26 AM »
Re: state races 2018

Cordray, who just stepped down from CFPB, intends to run for ohio governor in 2018.

http://www.cleveland.com/politics/index.ssf/2017/07/richard_cordray_is_running_for.html

Sued bank of america and AIG while he was ohio attorney general. CFPB tenure was also militant. Go, Cordray.

Dunno if he can beat Kasich, though but he has the best chance of all D candidates i think.

sidd
He looks like a bloody Mormon Bishop, but apparently he's actually bright as hell & has been elected in Ohio.
We could do much worse.


Anyone here from Ohio?
Terry

Rob Dekker

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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #1957 on: December 04, 2017, 07:33:41 AM »
How much information has Flynn helped Mueller to acquire covertly?

Title: "Was Michael Flynn asked to wear a wire in Mueller hunt for evidence on Russia?"

https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2017/dec/03/michael-flynn-plea-agreement-mueller-Russia

He might, but probably not for a long time.
Remember that it was only a week or so ago that the Flynn legal team broke ties with the Trump legal team. It seems unlikely that he was wired before that.

On the other hand, Flynn was under FBI investigation for a long time (at least from late 2016 on), so we have to assume that his phone was tapped. So at least whatever he said on the phone was recorded.

Rob Dekker

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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #1958 on: December 04, 2017, 08:14:43 AM »
That shocking tweet from our "dear president" from Saturday caused quite a stir :

I had to fire General Flynn because he lied to the Vice President and the FBI. He has pled guilty to those lies. It is a shame because his actions during the transition were lawful. There was nothing to hide!

First there was the shocking fact that with this tweet Trump incriminates himself. After all, if he KNEW that Flynn had committed a felony and then pushed Comey to "let Flynn go" it would be a clear case of obstruction of justice.

Then another tweet from the president (today) states this :
I never asked Comey to stop investigating Flynn. Just more Fake News covering another Comey lie!

Here, he clearly attacks one part of that first tweet, and it puts Comey's word against his own.

Now, we learned that Trump takes ALL responsibility away from this tweet, since John Dowd (Trump's lawyer) claims responsibility for drafting it, with spelling errors and all :

https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2017/dec/04/doesnt-make-sense-incredulity-trumps-lawyer-john-dowd-take-blame-for-flynn-tweet


“The mistake was I should have put the lying to the FBI in a separate line referencing his plea,” Dowd said. “Instead, I put it together and it made all you guys go crazy. A tweet is a shorthand.”

Dowd said the first time the president knew for a fact that Flynn lied to the FBI was when he was charged.

But not everyone is buying this. Some responses :

We’re supposed to believe John Dowd wrote pled instead of pleaded?

I made that mistake, but English is not my native language, and I certainly never was a DoJ attorney.

If John Dowd actually wrote that tweet he should be fired. That's stunning legal malpractice.

Don't hold you breath. The tweet was from Donald himself, and Dowd just threw himself under the bus. If he does not get fired he will get a raise for this stunt.

So we are to believe that John Dowd, a former DOJ attorney, just tanked his career by drafting a tweet that admitted the President obstructed justice. Or that he is so incompetent that he didn’t realize what he was saying. Either option doesn’t make sense.

The time to put Donald J Trump under oath and testify before the Special Counsel is soooooo overdue...
« Last Edit: December 04, 2017, 09:56:21 AM by Rob Dekker »

Buddy

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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #1959 on: December 04, 2017, 02:05:32 PM »
Pressure kills.  Donnie continues to make mistakes as the pressure builds.  That is what happens to us humans...and that is why a persons DECISION MAKING PROCESS is so important.  It can help correct bad decisions before they are made.  But in Donnie's FIRE...READY....AIM decision making process, Donnie is continually caught "tacking" back and forth between 2 or more stories that he makes up as he goes along.

I again encourage you folks to watch FOX News from time-to-time.  You can go to the FOX website, or watch YouTube clips if you don't have the cable coverage.  FOX is the biggest danger to democracy...and has been for 20 + years.  Watch Lou Dobbs, Sean Hannity, Jeanine Pirro, Stuart Varney, Maria Bartoromo, or others.  Sheppard Smith is the "Lone Wolf" of journalism at FOX.  There are no other journalists.

Also....Donnie is looking at a coming Senate trial at some time in the next 12+ months....so Donnie is supporting Roy Moore in Alabama, and Trump is trying to convince Orrin Hatch in Utah (83 years old) to run for another 6 year term so Mitt Romney will not run.  Roy Moores Democratic competition....and Mitt Romney instead of Orrin Hatch, would be two votes for removal from office in a Senate trial.  So Donnie knows what is coming.  He's trying to make sure he has the 1/3 of Senators available to vote...to keep him in office when impeachment by the House, and the resulting trial in the Senate finally arrives.

Time is ticking by Donnie.....tick....tick.....tick
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Buddy

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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #1960 on: December 04, 2017, 02:20:46 PM »
Two things to keep in mind that nobody is talking about:

1). Likely involvement by the Republican National Committee.  Likely knowledge by them of what was occurring with Russia's involvement.  What did the RNC do with that knowledge?  Clearly didn't inform the FBI.  Did they help in any way in helping the Trump campaign and Russia to target voters?

2). Possible involvment by FOX News sources (Sean Hannity, Jeanine Pirro, KT McFarland) in helping Trump to obstruct justice?  What does the FBI know about Donnie's conversations with Hannity, McFarland, and Pirro?

Inquiring minds want to know.....😳

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Jim Pettit

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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #1961 on: December 04, 2017, 06:56:53 PM »
For the record, i join neven and others in stating that the evidence posted thus far does not convince me that the Russian government intervened to influence the presidential election in the USA in 2016.

You and some others here may not be convinced that Russia interfered in the election--but both the ICA and the bipartisan Senate Intelligence Committee are, and, like it or not, their opinion on the matter is vastly more pertinent than is yours or mine.

However--unfortunately for Trump and his many sycophants, that's not even what this whole "Russiagate" thing is about, is it? See, the facet of the investigation that so many routinely refuse to even acknowledge in their rush to protect Putin (and obsessively slam Clinton along the way) is that Mueller isn't looking into whether Russia intervened.

No.

Mueller is looking into a) how deeply the Trump campaign or family worked with Russia to throw the, and, increasingly b), just how much obstruction is going on at the highest levels of the White House to prevent the investigation from getting to the truth.

To--again--summarize the facts:

1) Did Russia interfere in the 2016 election? Yes, at least in the opinion of the majority of people in a position to know.

2) Will anything happen to Russia for their meddling? Probably not, especially with their current Useful I diot sitting at the Resolute Desk.

3) Did TrumpCo collude with Russia to help defeat Clinton? Likely, but also likely to be difficult to prove.

4) Will anything happen to TrumpCo for the crime of "collusion"? Probably not; as stated above, it may be difficult to prove.

5) Has TrumpCo attempted to obstruct the investigation at a hundred different turns? Absolutely. They continue to do so.

6) Will anything happen to TrumpCo for the crimes of obstruction of justice, conspiracy against the United States, acting as unregistered foreign agents, making false and misleading statements, failing to file required reports, lying under oath, and so on, and so on? If there were justice, yes. But there are so many power-crazed, morally-bankrupt fools on the right that will just shrug and say, "Well, whattaya gonna do?", and then do absolutely nothing. And, sadly, there a large number of folks ostensibly on the left who, still seething about Bernie's primary loss and/or infatuated with Putin, will console themselves by saying that eight years of Trump and his crimes is just the price Democrats are gonna have to pay for not nominating Sanders.

AbruptSLR

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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #1962 on: December 04, 2017, 07:07:17 PM »
Pressure kills.  Donnie continues to make mistakes as the pressure builds. 

Maybe to relieve some Russiagate pressure Donnie will initiate a preemptive/unprovoked war against North Korea.  Now that kind of pressure kills for real.
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Buddy

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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #1963 on: December 04, 2017, 09:03:39 PM »
There are a LOT more interviews to go for Bob Mueller...here are just some of them:

1). Donnie
2). Pence
3). Donnie Jr
4). Jarred
5). Ivanka
6). Hope Hicks
7). Rudy Guiliani
8). Jason Chaffetz
9). Devin Nunez
10). Eric Trump

There are a LOT of others as well.  The support staff that work for these folks are going to get there turn to chat with Bob before he gets to these folks.  Some of support team has already been talked to.

Merry Christmas Donnie....and Feliz Navidad from all the Mexicans who are NOT going to pay for any wall. 🎅🏽
« Last Edit: December 04, 2017, 09:20:23 PM by Buddy »
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TerryM

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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #1964 on: December 04, 2017, 09:16:31 PM »
Pressure kills.  Donnie continues to make mistakes as the pressure builds. 

Maybe to relieve some Russiagate pressure Donnie will initiate a preemptive/unprovoked war against North Korea.  Now that kind of pressure kills for real.


If you consider this to be a real possibility, wouldn't relieving the pressure on the two mad men be preferable to triggering a possible Nuclear War?
Terry

Hefaistos

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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #1965 on: December 04, 2017, 09:23:49 PM »
For the record, i join neven and others in stating that the evidence posted thus far does not convince me that the Russian government intervened to influence the presidential election in the USA in 2016.

You and some others here may not be convinced that Russia interfered in the election--but both the ICA and the bipartisan Senate Intelligence Committee are, and, like it or not, their opinion on the matter is vastly more pertinent than is yours or mine.

However--unfortunately for Trump and his many sycophants, that's not even what this whole "Russiagate" thing is about, is it? See, the facet of the investigation that so many routinely refuse to even acknowledge in their rush to protect Putin (and obsessively slam Clinton along the way) is that Mueller isn't looking into whether Russia intervened.

No.

Mueller is looking into a) how deeply the Trump campaign or family worked with Russia to throw the, and, increasingly b), just how much obstruction is going on at the highest levels of the White House to prevent the investigation from getting to the truth.

To--again--summarize the facts:

1) Did Russia interfere in the 2016 election? Yes, at least in the opinion of the majority of people in a position to know.

2) Will anything happen to Russia for their meddling? Probably not, especially with their current Useful I diot sitting at the Resolute Desk.

3) Did TrumpCo collude with Russia to help defeat Clinton? Likely, but also likely to be difficult to prove.

4) Will anything happen to TrumpCo for the crime of "collusion"? Probably not; as stated above, it may be difficult to prove.

5) Has TrumpCo attempted to obstruct the investigation at a hundred different turns? Absolutely. They continue to do so.

6) Will anything happen to TrumpCo for the crimes of obstruction of justice, conspiracy against the United States, acting as unregistered foreign agents, making false and misleading statements, failing to file required reports, lying under oath, and so on, and so on? If there were justice, yes. But there are so many power-crazed, morally-bankrupt fools on the right that will just shrug and say, "Well, whattaya gonna do?", and then do absolutely nothing. And, sadly, there a large number of folks ostensibly on the left who, still seething about Bernie's primary loss and/or infatuated with Putin, will console themselves by saying that eight years of Trump and his crimes is just the price Democrats are gonna have to pay for not nominating Sanders.

Jim, while I agree with most of your reasoning, I just want to mention again that 'Russia-gate' has a somewhat different meaning outside the US.

Post by Joe Lauria today, which focuses on how the Russia-gate hysteria has spread beyond a strategy for neutralizing Donald Trump or even removing him from office, into an excuse for stifling U.S. dissent.

https://consortiumnews.com/2017/12/04/how-russia-gate-rationalizes-censorship/

Buddy

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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #1966 on: December 04, 2017, 10:23:16 PM »
The case of the "moving goalposts".

1). "We didn't talk to any Russians".
2). "Well....we talked to Russians, but it was about adoption".
3).  "Yes....I guess I did call the Russian Ambassador 5 times after Obama announced new restrictions on Russia....but it was Christmas."
4). "Yes...we talked to the Russians but we didn't obstruct justice."
5). "Ok....maybe we obstructed justice...but the president can't REALLY obstruct justice because he is the top law enforcement officer."

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AbruptSLR

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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #1967 on: December 04, 2017, 10:26:24 PM »
Pressure kills.  Donnie continues to make mistakes as the pressure builds. 

Maybe to relieve some Russiagate pressure Donnie will initiate a preemptive/unprovoked war against North Korea.  Now that kind of pressure kills for real.


If you consider this to be a real possibility, wouldn't relieving the pressure on the two mad men be preferable to triggering a possible Nuclear War?
Terry

Your asking a blogger on Neven's Arctic Sea Ice Forum, not a member of the US Congress or Deputy AG Rod Rosenstein.  I just observe and comment.  However, if Trump is feeling too much pressure, he could always resign and Kim Jung Un could certainly negotiate a nice retirement plan.
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AbruptSLR

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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #1968 on: December 04, 2017, 10:43:36 PM »
How much information has Flynn helped Mueller to acquire covertly?

Title: "Was Michael Flynn asked to wear a wire in Mueller hunt for evidence on Russia?"

https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2017/dec/03/michael-flynn-plea-agreement-mueller-Russia

He might, but probably not for a long time.
Remember that it was only a week or so ago that the Flynn legal team broke ties with the Trump legal team. It seems unlikely that he was wired before that.

On the other hand, Flynn was under FBI investigation for a long time (at least from late 2016 on), so we have to assume that his phone was tapped. So at least whatever he said on the phone was recorded.

Of course Flynn's plea deal only covers his own crimes, so there is a possibility that this past summer that Flynn made a separate deal with Mueller that in exchange for wearing a wire Mueller would not indict Flynn Jr.  If so he could have been wearing a wire for months.
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sidd

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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #1969 on: December 04, 2017, 11:09:58 PM »
This ought to be interesting. Dana Rohrbacher and Wasserman-Schultz to apppear before house intelligence committee.

http://edition.cnn.com/2017/12/04/politics/house-russia-investigators-interview-rohrabacher-wasserman-schultz/

sidd

Susan Anderson

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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #1970 on: December 05, 2017, 02:49:04 AM »
OK, just briefly, being a battered US American, I'm going to go seriously off the reservation with a prediction. Only time will tell.

Flynn flipped gives Mueller Kushner. Kushner flipped gives us Trump and Pence. I couldn't find a more evil pair of nasties in the US if I looked all day.

OT: Meanwhile, a friend of a friend reports that Will Happer in an alcoholic tantrum (he's joined the alt right) said Trump is now useless and if we overcome them they are better armed* and we'd better look out. That's what it looks like here. Hitler has a rival.

*Every event increases gun sales. Hundreds of guns, hundreds of thousands of ammo rounds. I'm not kidding.

Rob Dekker

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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #1971 on: December 05, 2017, 03:36:11 AM »
Manafort just blew his chance to leave his house.

While under house arrest, with a GPS bracelet, and under a court order not to make any public statements, this idiot contacts a Russian (!) friend, and starts to write an op-ed together to make him look better.
How stupid is this guy ?

TheYoungTurks has a good summary of what just happened :



Hats off for the FBI for catching him in the act.
« Last Edit: December 05, 2017, 08:32:55 AM by Rob Dekker »

Buddy

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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #1972 on: December 05, 2017, 01:25:22 PM »
Reuters is reporting that Mueller's team has subpoenaed Donald Trump and his family's bank records from Deutche Bank a few weeks ago.

The money laundering aspect of Mueller's investigation is the one that is likely to take the longest, because of the number of entities and accounts to sift through from multiple countries (Germany, US, Ukraine, Cyprus, etc).  This "crop" will take a while to nurture and grow before it can be harvested.

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Neven

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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #1973 on: December 05, 2017, 05:41:21 PM »
Reuters is reporting that Mueller's team has subpoenaed Donald Trump and his family's bank records from Deutche Bank a few weeks ago.

Now we're talking. Putting the focus on general corruption and how Trump is actually part of the swamp and always has been, is a much more useful and less risky strategy than the Russia-Russia-Russia stuff, IMHO.
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Buddy

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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #1974 on: December 05, 2017, 05:57:24 PM »
Trumps dealings with Deutche Bank and Donnie's knowledge and use of laundered money is DIRECTLY part of the "Russia Russia Russia stuff."  😳
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TerryM

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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #1975 on: December 05, 2017, 07:52:35 PM »
Trumps dealings with Deutche Bank and Donnie's knowledge and use of laundered money is DIRECTLY part of the "Russia Russia Russia stuff."  😳
Eh??

AbruptSLR

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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #1976 on: December 05, 2017, 08:02:46 PM »
Trumps dealings with Deutche Bank and Donnie's knowledge and use of laundered money is DIRECTLY part of the "Russia Russia Russia stuff."  😳
Eh??

In response to your apparent confusion:

Title: "Trump-Russia probe: Mueller 'demands Deutsche Bank data'"

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-42240588

Extract: "Until now, Robert Mueller has appeared to be operating on the periphery of President Trump - focusing on former campaign chairman Paul Manafort's previous foreign lobbying efforts, the Russian contacts of George Papadopoulos, a relatively minor foreign policy adviser, and the post-election actions of Mr Trump's confidant Michael Flynn.

While the charges are serious, the president himself has been removed from the most heated prosecutorial action.

That all changes if the Deutsche Bank reports are true. The German institution, which also has ties to Russian oligarchs, was a lifeline for the Trump Organization's businesses in the early 2000s, when US lenders turned their backs on the then-struggling business tycoon."
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TerryM

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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #1977 on: December 05, 2017, 08:27:18 PM »
Yes, I see it! Of course!
How could I have missed the fact that the Deutsche Bank was in the hands of Evil Russian Oligarchs.


Are the Royal Bank of Canada, the Bank of America, and the Banco de Mexico also infected, or is it only European institutions that are controlled by Putin's Billionaire Minions?


What a Devious Mind
Terry

Alexander555

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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #1978 on: December 05, 2017, 08:53:23 PM »
Somebody that was laundering money for the russians woud go for President. Who beliefs that ?

AbruptSLR

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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #1979 on: December 05, 2017, 10:56:54 PM »
Yes, I see it! Of course!
How could I have missed the fact that the Deutsche Bank was in the hands of Evil Russian Oligarchs.


Are the Royal Bank of Canada, the Bank of America, and the Banco de Mexico also infected, or is it only European institutions that are controlled by Putin's Billionaire Minions?


What a Devious Mind
Terry

Per the first linked article one of the main reasons Mueller subpoenaed Deutsche Bank was to see if any of Trump's loans were sold to Russia's development bank VEB (or other sanctioned Russian banks), while the second linked article indicates how Kushner's meeting with VEB's chairman in December 2016 has raised questions regarding ties to Russiagate:

Title: "Trump lawyer denies Deutsche Bank got subpoena on Trump accounts"

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-usa-trump-deutsche-bank/trump-lawyer-denies-deutsche-bank-got-subpoena-on-trump-accounts-idUSKBN1DZ0XN

Extract: "A U.S. official with knowledge of Mueller’s probe said one reason for the subpoenas was to find out whether Deutsche Bank may have sold some of Trump’s mortgage or other loans to Russian state development bank VEB or other Russian banks that now are under U.S. and European Union sanctions."

&

Titled: "Kushner meeting shines spotlight on Russian bank"

https://www.ft.com/content/14c0cf6a-5409-11e7-80b6-9bfa4c1f83d2

Extract: "Moscow-controlled VEB has no banking licence but supports Kremlin’s priority projects"
“It is not the strongest or the most intelligent who will survive but those who can best manage change.”
― Leon C. Megginson

AbruptSLR

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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #1980 on: December 05, 2017, 11:11:14 PM »
The linked Mother Jones article offers more insights as to why Mueller subpoenaed Deutsche Bank.

Title: "Robert Mueller Just Subpoenaed Trump’s Favorite Bank. Here’s What He May Be Looking For."

http://www.motherjones.com/politics/2017/12/mueller-subpoena-donald-trump-deutsche-bank/

Extract: "This summer, Trump said he considered his family’s personal finances a “red line” that Mueller should not cross. But by targeting Deutsche Bank with a subpoena for more information about Trump’s accounts, Mueller may well be crossing that line. More important perhaps, he is digging into a massive Trump conflict of interest and one of the biggest questions regarding Trump’s business empire: Why would this German bank lend him so much money when US banks wouldn’t?

None of Trump’s outstanding debt comes from Deutsche’s corporate side—the part of the bank that lends to most corporate customers. Trump did borrow money in the early 2000s from that part of the bank to build a condo and hotel tower in Chicago. But after he failed to make a large interest payment, Trump ended up suing the Deutsche Bank for billions, launching a period of acrimonious litigation. When the lawsuits were settled and Trump was looking for new financing, it was another section of Deutsche Bank—the private bank—that provided him the loans he needed to expand his business.

Trump’s supersized Deutsche Bank loans—as well as his debts to other lenders—create massive conflicts of interest. These deals give lenders leverage over the sitting president. Moreover, Deutsche Bank has recently clashed with US regulators over its involvement with the 2008 financial crisis, and, yes, its business dealings with Russia. This means Trump is overseeing a government that has had to make tough decisions over how to handle various matters related to Deutsche Bank—to which he owns a ton of money.

In the summer of 2016, The New Yorker detailed how Deutsche Bank was involved with a complex scheme to move as much as $10 billion out of Russia on behalf of powerful individuals facing sanctions in the West. In fact, according to Deutsche Bank’s own public filings with the Securities and Exchange Commission, the Department of Justice is actively investigating the case. However, last month, CNN reported that since Trump came to office, the Justice Department investigation into the Russian money-laundering scandal had gone dormant. It is not clear why. (The Department of Justice declined to comment on the investigation.) And during the campaign, Deutsche Bank was separately under investigation by the Justice Department for its role in the 2008 financial crisis. The bank settled the case—three days before Trump took office—agreeing to pay $7.2 billion.

Earlier this year, congressional Democrats asked the German bank to turn over information regarding Trump’s loans with the firm, but the bank rebuffed the requests.

In a statement, the top Democrat on the House Intelligence Committee, Rep. Adam Schiff (D-Calif.), said, “Special Counsel Mueller’s subpoena of Deutsche Bank would be a very significant development. If Russia laundered money through the Trump Organization, it would be far more compromising than any salacious video and could be used as leverage against Donald Trump and his associates and family.”"
“It is not the strongest or the most intelligent who will survive but those who can best manage change.”
― Leon C. Megginson

crandles

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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #1981 on: December 06, 2017, 12:49:39 AM »
However, a lawyer for the US president denied the reports.

"We have confirmed that the news reports that the special counsel had subpoenaed financial records relating to the president are false," attorney Jay Sekulow told Reuters in a statement.

"No subpoena has been issued or received. We have confirmed this with the bank and other sources."

Could the subpoena have specified that Trump and any of his agents were not to be informed? (Such that Deutche Bank would be obliged to deny the reports.)

Also, what other sources would a Trump lawyer have?

sidd

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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #1982 on: December 06, 2017, 02:54:25 AM »
"Shut up," Popehat explained kindly.

" If the FBI — or any law enforcement agency — asks to talk to you, say "No, I want to talk to my lawyer, I don't want to talk to you," and repeat as necessary. Do not talk to them "just to see what they want." Do not try to "set the facts straight." Do not try to outwit them. Do not explain that you have "nothing to hide."

Shut up, shut up, shut up, shut up, shut up, shut up. "

That line in the article contains six links, each with popehat kindly explaining why.

Specifically, this time Ken White  was set off by George Papadopouluos and Michael Flynn pleading guilty to the federal crime of lying to the FBI.

"The answer is to shut up and lawyer up."

He would go completely crazy if he had Trump for a client. I'd give him about a new york minute until he quit.

https://www.popehat.com/2017/12/04/everybody-lies-fbi-edition

sidd

Rob Dekker

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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #1983 on: December 06, 2017, 04:34:13 AM »
Thanks AbruptSLR, that Mother Jones article gives a good overview of the issues with Deutsche Bank and Trump and Russians.

In the summer of 2016, The New Yorker detailed how Deutsche Bank was involved with a complex scheme to move as much as $10 billion out of Russia on behalf of powerful individuals facing sanctions in the West. In fact, according to Deutsche Bank’s own public filings with the Securities and Exchange Commission, the Department of Justice is actively investigating the case. However, last month, CNN reported that since Trump came to office, the Justice Department investigation into the Russian money-laundering scandal had gone dormant. It is not clear why.

Maybe some member of the House Judiciary Committee can ask Sessions about that next time he testifies.

Rob Dekker

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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #1984 on: December 06, 2017, 08:10:30 AM »
However, a lawyer for the US president denied the reports.

"We have confirmed that the news reports that the special counsel had subpoenaed financial records relating to the president are false," attorney Jay Sekulow told Reuters in a statement.

"No subpoena has been issued or received. We have confirmed this with the bank and other sources."

Could the subpoena have specified that Trump and any of his agents were not to be informed? (Such that Deutche Bank would be obliged to deny the reports.)

Also, what other sources would a Trump lawyer have?

Deutche Bank has already stated that they don't talk about ANY client matters.
So it is possible that Jay Sekulow is not telling the truth.

And there is a reason why he might not be telling the truth.
Remember that Trump talked about that "red line" if Mueller starts investigating Trump finances ?
Maybe Jay Sekulow wants to avoid that Trump (his client) will get himself into much more trouble if Trump acts on that crossing the line ; by firing Mueller for example, which will cause a constitutional crisis in this country, and could lead to impeachment.

Jay Sekulow may be protecting the president against himself here, or at least provide an excuse for Trump NOT to act against Mueller yet.

Rob Dekker

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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #1985 on: December 06, 2017, 08:49:37 AM »
If you think about it, this move by Jay Sekulow is quite brilliant.
Mueller may find something on Trump via Deutsche Bank, but it can't be much.

Maybe something minor like "failure to declare a suspicious money source" in which case Trump can immediately fire Mueller for going outside his mandate, and it would be acceptable to Congress. If anything, this subpoena may expose where Deutsche Bank got there funding from for Trump's loans, which may result in a charge against Deutsche Bank, but not against Trump.

Maybe this was a test by Mueller, to see how Trump would react to his own "red line" crossing at this time.

This is after all power play at the highest level, folks...
« Last Edit: December 06, 2017, 10:01:50 AM by Rob Dekker »

Buddy

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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #1986 on: December 06, 2017, 01:09:56 PM »
Money laundering is not a minor crime.  It is a felony...and for federal purposes, can lead to a 20 year prison sentance.  Of course....I am not concerned with the federal penalties as much as I am the STATE penalties.

In New York....penalties can be TWICE the amount of the transactions involved.  For instance, let's say that Donnie, Junior, and Ivanka...were proven to be involved in money laundering in New York's Trump Towers.  Let's say that $100 million was laundered.  In New York....the penalty could be $200 million.  Not exactly chump change...at least not in my neighborhood.

In addition to the charge of money laundering itself which is substantial...it is usually leads to other crimes and charges such as RICO (racketeering) and possible voting charges.

So....the money laundering itself is nothing to be sneezed at...and the penalties can be severe.

Also note....that money laundering activities likely took place in New Jersey, Virginia, and Florida as well.  Florida elections in November 2018 for both governor and AG will be key.  Ya' think there is any money laundering going on at Mar a lago? 😳😳😳
« Last Edit: December 06, 2017, 01:24:48 PM by Buddy »
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crandles

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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #1987 on: December 06, 2017, 01:15:38 PM »
However, a lawyer for the US president denied the reports.

"We have confirmed that the news reports that the special counsel had subpoenaed financial records relating to the president are false," attorney Jay Sekulow told Reuters in a statement.

"No subpoena has been issued or received. We have confirmed this with the bank and other sources."

Could the subpoena have specified that Trump and any of his agents were not to be informed? (Such that Deutche Bank would be obliged to deny the reports.)

Also, what other sources would a Trump lawyer have?

Deutche Bank has already stated that they don't talk about ANY client matters.
So it is possible that Jay Sekulow is not telling the truth.

And there is a reason why he might not be telling the truth.
Remember that Trump talked about that "red line" if Mueller starts investigating Trump finances ?
Maybe Jay Sekulow wants to avoid that Trump (his client) will get himself into much more trouble if Trump acts on that crossing the line ; by firing Mueller for example, which will cause a constitutional crisis in this country, and could lead to impeachment.

Jay Sekulow may be protecting the president against himself here, or at least provide an excuse for Trump NOT to act against Mueller yet.

Thank you, that does seem a plausible explanation for a Trump lawyer saying something (other sources) that makes Trump et al look dodgy for having those other sources. It is there to encourage Trump to believe it when Trump may know enough to know that Deutsche Bank would be forced to deny it when true because otherwise they are guilty of 'Tipping Off'.

Buddy

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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #1988 on: December 06, 2017, 01:38:45 PM »
The other thing to consider now, is the "freeze" that all the media attention and the subpoena of Trumps bank records from Deutche Bank will do to either slow down or stop completely the current flow of laundered money into Trump properties.  If I am Russian oligarch, the last place I would look right now is anything related to Trump.

FOX (RT) News....."The Trump Channel.....where truth and journalism are dead."

Rob Dekker

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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #1989 on: December 07, 2017, 09:36:21 AM »
Today, Donald Jr. testified before the House Intelligence Committee today in a closed session.

Obviously many of the questions were about the June 9, 2016 meeting between Trump surrogates and Russians claiming to have 'dirt' on Hillary. There is collusion right there, although some may still want to dispute that.

Trump Jr. apparently answered many questions but refused a few also, specifically about the response to the news of the meeting (remember that was that initial false statement that the meeting was only about "adoptions"). The Committee wanted to know how that came about. Donald Jr. choose to not answer questions about if and what he talked about with his father regarding that statement :

"Trump Jr. refused to tell lawmakers about what he and the president talked about regarding how to respond to news of the meeting"

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/the-fix/wp/2017/12/06/three-pressing-questions-about-trump-russia-collusion-that-donald-trump-jr-can-answer/?utm_term=.89ed74926e7f

The Committee does not like that (refusal to answer questions) so we will likely see a follow-up later.

Talking to the Trump team members is like pulling teeth. They don't cooperate unless forced.
It is going to take a while to get to the bottom of this.
« Last Edit: December 07, 2017, 09:54:16 AM by Rob Dekker »

Neven

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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #1990 on: December 07, 2017, 01:53:26 PM »
Here's Jimmy Dore on the coverage of Russiagate (and how it helps Trump):

Il faut cultiver notre jardin

TerryM

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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #1991 on: December 07, 2017, 09:29:52 PM »
Another of Jimmy's rants. This time with Bill Meyer in the headlights.





Pushing the progressive Franken out of the senate may amount to an own goal by the Democrats, but perhaps the corporate side of the party views it as a win?


The Democratic Party seems to be intentionally tearing itself to shreds.
When your campaign's battle cry is "We'd have won if they hadn't told the truth about us", you shouldn't depend on too much in the way of a sympathy vote.


Hillary proved to be less electable than Donald.
The DNC doesn't deny what was written in the e-mails, they complain about who it was that brought them to light.
Neither promises to clean up their act, they do promise to tighten up their security so they won't get caught the next time.


Somehow I've drifted far from Russiagate and stumbled into the next election cycles. I supported Al Franken and I'm upset that he resigned under pressure.
Terry

Buddy

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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #1992 on: December 08, 2017, 02:30:55 AM »
If you want to see what it looks like to see a news personality (he's NOT a journalist) freak out....now that he understands that HE may be in the crosshairs of the FBI.....then you NEED to watch Sean Hannit's show from last night.  He was screaming that "Mueller MUST be fired and the whole investigation shut down".  "This is a total witch hunt and they're all biased."

He REALLY lost it.  And yes..... I DO believe he may have been caught in the crosshairs.....and maybe he had a conversation with Manafort, while the FBI was listening in.  And may have been talking about stuff he shouldn't have been doing.

I noted LONG agao, that it is VERY possible that Mueller may take a look at Hannity and Pirro of FOX News for possible "obstruction of justice".....working WITH Donnie to muddy the waters of the FBI investigation.  I still don't KNOW for a fact that it will happen.  But after watching Hannity in a wedgie last night.... I think the chances are getting better.

My pal Sean has REALLY LOST IT. 
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budmantis

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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #1993 on: December 08, 2017, 05:03:04 AM »
Hannity's just a hack. I'd love to see him squirm.

BudM

Rob Dekker

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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #1994 on: December 08, 2017, 05:15:35 AM »
Here's Jimmy Dore on the coverage of Russiagate (and how it helps Trump):

I'm not going to sugar-coat this, but seriously, Neven, please stop watching and posting these fact-free biased Jimmy Dore rants.

Take this rant now, about MSNBC and the Mueller investigation.

After MSNBC has been exposing the disastrous Republican tax scam for TWO MONTHS straight (just go to youtube and search for "msnbc tax plan") in depth and thorough, Jimmy Dore cherry picks last Friday (the day that Mueller released the Flynn court papers) to attack MSNBC for not covering the tax bill. Are you kidding me ? The former National Security Adviser in the US just admitted to committing a felony, with all kind of implications for the Trump presidency. Something that could potentially rival the WaterGate scandal, and MSNBC is supposed to ignore all that and continue to their coverage of the tax scam ?

And then Dore tops it of with a compliment to Fox News, and continue his rant explaining his own narrow-minded theory as why MSNBC doesn't cover the tax bill.

What an annoying little prick.

Dore is against Democrats, MSNBC, Barack Obama, Hillary, and the Mueller investigation, and is promoting the fake Uranium One scandal and conspiracy theories like that Assad did not cause the Syrian sarin gas attacks. All talking points of the far-right.

In fact, he VERY MUCH sounds like Alex Jones. On the Syrian sarin gas attacks, he literally is following the same conspiracy theory as Alex Jones, on almost the same day. I'd be happy to elaborate, but that is probably better done in a different thread.

And he does not seem to have any ideas himself. If he wants to talk the tax bill why doesn't he do so himself, on his very own show ?

Please don't post Jimmy Dole any more. He is a far-right-wing conspiracy nut dressed in far-left-wing clothes.
« Last Edit: December 08, 2017, 05:50:31 AM by Rob Dekker »

sidd

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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #1995 on: December 08, 2017, 05:37:53 AM »
While I am not a huge fan of Jimmy Dore, I find that he does provide a useful antidote to mainstream media, whether of red or blue persuasion. So I think that Neven or others should post as much Jimmy Dore as they like. And those who don't like it are, of course, not obliged to watch ...
 
(Although i do have to jump thru hoops to find the URL, since i disallow most iframes, so the link to the embedded video in the iframe has to be found thru inspection of the source. Perhaps people might also post a direct link to the URL for the video as well.)

sidd

Rob Dekker

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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #1996 on: December 08, 2017, 05:56:28 AM »
While I am not a huge fan of Jimmy Dore, I find that he does provide a useful antidote to mainstream media, whether of red or blue persuasion. So I think that Neven or others should post as much Jimmy Dore as they like. And those who don't like it are, of course, not obliged to watch ...
 

Fine. I hope you don't mind if I will do fact-checks on these Jimmy Dore posts, and provide some context, just like I just did with Jimmy's MSNBC / RussiaGate rant.

[edit] While we are at it, sidd, can you give ONE example where Jimmy Dore provided "a useful antidote to mainstream media", without resorting to conspiracy theories or cherry picking facts ?
« Last Edit: December 08, 2017, 06:16:54 AM by Rob Dekker »

Rob Dekker

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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #1997 on: December 08, 2017, 06:23:12 AM »
Another of Jimmy's rants. This time with Bill Meyer in the headlights.

Interesting that Jimmy picks Bill Meyer to make fun of, and NOT Fox News Hannity, Alex Jones, or any other right-wing public figure.
« Last Edit: December 08, 2017, 06:39:16 AM by Rob Dekker »

budmantis

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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #1998 on: December 08, 2017, 06:50:56 AM »
Another of Jimmy's rants. This time with Bill Meyer in the headlights.





Somehow I've drifted far from Russiagate and stumbled into the next election cycles. I supported Al Franken and I'm upset that he resigned under pressure.
Terry

It's a shame about Franken, but his resignation may further delegitimize Roy Moore's Senate candidacy.

BudM

Rob Dekker

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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #1999 on: December 08, 2017, 08:20:48 AM »
budmantis, can you cut-out the part (including the video) that does not refer to your comment ?
Please.
It helps to tidy up this thread.