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Buddy

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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #2100 on: December 18, 2017, 05:44:04 PM »
According to the Washington Post....Donnie is continuing to rant to his staff about the FBI and Department of Justice....specifaccly Rosenstein and McCabe....further setting the table for ultimately ousting them, and finding someone to fire Mueller.  Whether it is in 4 days...4 months...or 8 months...Donnie HAS to stop the investigation.

FOX (RT) News....."The Trump Channel.....where truth and journalism are dead."

AbruptSLR

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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #2101 on: December 18, 2017, 10:59:43 PM »
Mueller should take WH reassurances for what they are worth:
“It is not the strongest or the most intelligent who will survive but those who can best manage change.”
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AbruptSLR

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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #2102 on: December 19, 2017, 12:00:02 AM »
The linked article offers four reasons for Trump not to fire Mueller; however, who knows what a wounded animal will do, when cornered.

Title: "4 reasons firing Robert Mueller could blow up in Trump’s face"

https://www.vox.com/policy-and-politics/2017/12/18/16790278/robert-mueller-fired-trump

Extract: "But it’s important to realize that there are also some real, practical reasons for Trump not to fire Mueller. That is: Doing so would cause him several new problems, without entirely solving his old ones.

For one, any attempt to fire Mueller would likely lead to a storm of leaks. For another, he’d have to fire more people than just Mueller to get rid of him. Trump would have to do yet more to actually end the investigation. Perhaps most importantly, the controversy that would ensue would make a Democratic takeover of Congress more likely — which could end up putting Trump and his administration under even more investigative scrutiny."
“It is not the strongest or the most intelligent who will survive but those who can best manage change.”
― Leon C. Megginson

Buddy

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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #2103 on: December 19, 2017, 12:38:16 AM »
I agree with all of AbruptSLR's entry above.  There is no GOOD reason for Trump to have Mueller fired.

Couple things to keep in mind:

Trump will NOT fire Mueller (directly).  He cant.  And that is why he is setting up Rosenstein.  Trump WILL fire Rosenstein...and maybe even Wrey.  But Trump WILL find someone to fire Mueller.

Now...there still isn't a good reason to have Rosenstein fired and then fire Mueller.  But Donnie IS a cornered animal...and slowly...week by week...he is getting pushed further into his lonely corner
and his way out is shrinking.

Journalists should be asking better...more specific questions regarding Mueller:

1). "Donnie....do you intend to fire Rod Rosenstein?"
2). "Donnie..... do you want Rod Rosenstein or his replacement to fire Mueller?"

I don't know what the breaking point will be..or when it will come.  But I believe it WILL come.
« Last Edit: December 19, 2017, 09:05:23 AM by Buddy »
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AbruptSLR

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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #2104 on: December 19, 2017, 03:00:45 AM »
The linked pdf is entitled: "Why Trump Can't (Easily) Remove Mueller—and What Happens If He Tries", by Noah Bookbinder, Norman Eisen, and Caroline Fredrickson, December 6, 2017, and it clarifies the hoops that Trump would need to jump through to get rid of Mueller.
 

https://s3.amazonaws.com/storage.citizensforethics.org/wp-content/uploads/2017/12/06181615/Why-Trump-Cant-Easily-Remove-Mueller%E2%80%94and-What-Happens-If-He-Tries-12.6.17.pdf

“It is not the strongest or the most intelligent who will survive but those who can best manage change.”
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sidd

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AbruptSLR

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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #2106 on: December 19, 2017, 10:36:27 PM »
The extent of the Trump campaign's web of deceit is coming into focus:

Title: "More signs of guilt: Trump’s campaign was warned about Russia, and said nothing"

https://www.salon.com/2017/12/19/more-signs-of-guilt-trumps-campaign-was-warned-about-russia-and-said-nothing/

Extract: "On Monday, NBC News reported that sometime after Donald Trump officially became the Republican nominee for president on July 19, 2016, FBI officials delivered him a top-level counterintelligence briefing in which they warned him that Russians were trying to infiltrate the campaign. They asked that the campaign report any contacts or suspicious activity to the bureau. The exact date of this meeting is unclear, but it is assumed to have happened around the time both general election campaigns were receiving their first classified briefings around the middle of August.

It is apparently standard to brief presidential campaigns about the possibility of such threats, but in this case there was a highly specific one. And it was likely explained in some pretty stark terms, since Trump was new to classified briefings and the FBI knew at this point that the Russians had hacked into the Democratic National Committee's computer system and were behind the WikiLeaks releases that Trump touted on the campaign trail every day.

In fact, a month or so later when Trump met Clinton for the presidential debates and repeatedly claimed that "nobody knew" who had hacked the DNC, saying it might have even been "some guy in his bed who weighs 400 pounds," the intelligence community was appalled:"
“It is not the strongest or the most intelligent who will survive but those who can best manage change.”
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Rob Dekker

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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #2107 on: December 20, 2017, 08:35:48 AM »
It's Russians all the way down. Stein's turn:

Jill Stein was at the same table with Putin as Flynn was in that 2015 Moscow meeting.
Putin was interested in Stein, since she could take away votes from HRC.
So it makes sense to investigate the Stein campaign for links with Russia.
I wonder what comes out of this investigation..
This is our planet. This is our time.
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Buddy

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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #2108 on: December 20, 2017, 03:41:33 PM »
I'm sure glad that Ty Cobb is calling an end to the RussiaGate investigation at the end of this year.  I'm sure there are just some loose strings to tie up.....and then Donnie can receive a "clean bill of health" from the justice department.....and he can get back to destroying the country.  Whewwwww....what a relief.😉

If only Ty Cobb had that kind of pixie dust to make things go away.  He doesn't.  His meeting with Mueller this week should be interesting.  When Mueller tells him that they MIGHT be wrapped up by the end of the year I'm sure Ty will be happy.  And then when Mueller tells him the year he is talking about is NEXT YEAR.... I have a feeling that will be as well received as a fastball at Ty Cobbs head.

But Donnie along with the state run media of FOX News have done their softening up of Mueller, McCabe, Rosenstein, and the FBI in general....so Donnie should be ready to pull the first pin on the hand gernade aimed at McCabe.  If that doesn't get the required action.....the next one will be for Rosenstein....and a search for someone who will fire Mueller.

It will be interesting to see what Wrey does IF Donnie does proceed down that path.  Will Wrey say no to the firing of McCabe and fall on his own sword?  Will Wrey be OK with firing McCabe but balk at firing Rosenstein and THEN fall on his own sword?

What kind of balls and ethics does Wrey have?  I don't know.....but sometime next year we are likely to find out.

I expect more batshit crazy out of Russia's FOX News.  And it will be interesting to see what FOXs lone journalist....Shepard Smith does.  Is it getting lonely for him.....will he cave to money?

2018 is going to be crazier than 2017......so buckle up and hold onto the handrails.


« Last Edit: December 21, 2017, 02:31:33 PM by Buddy »
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TerryM

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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #2109 on: December 21, 2017, 02:14:36 PM »
After being introduced to his videos by Neven, I've come to appreciate Jimmy Dore. Now I find my appreciation matched by none other than Julian Assange!


https://twitter.com/JulianAssange/status/943060307869650949


Interestingly, the video Assange links to is one in which Dore opines that Assange is telling the world that Seth Rich was the source for Wikileaks DNC leaks, as opposed to the supposed Russian hacks.


If Seth supplied Wikileaks with leaked, not hacked files, the whole foundation of Russiagate begins to crumble, crushing those who are heavily invested in finding something substantial after all of this effort.


We now know that Hillary's campaign did "collude" with Kremlin insiders and obtained dirt to use against her Presidential rival. Whether Trump's campaign did the same is still up in the air, but if Seth did it, Trump and Putin are certainly not guilty.


If it were to be proven that both campaigns had attempted to win the election by using Kremlin provided dirt to bury their opponent, should this be dealt with by exonerating Hillary and impeaching Trump? What would justify such an injustice?


Terry

Martin Gisser

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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #2110 on: December 21, 2017, 02:36:38 PM »
OMFG, Terry, brilliant satire!

SteveMDFP

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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #2111 on: December 21, 2017, 03:47:47 PM »

If Seth supplied Wikileaks with leaked, not hacked files, the whole foundation of Russiagate begins to crumble, crushing those who are heavily invested in finding something substantial after all of this effort.


I'm sorry, that's a ridiculous assertion.  The DNC e-mails are only a small part of the overall picture.  And if Assange were selectively releasing only those e-mails harmful to Hillary's campaign, he might certainly fudge on facts about the Kremlin's influence on Wikileaks.

There's no reason to believe Assange's source for the e-mails was the hacker/thief himself.  Anyone with an IQ over 60 would have a third party deliver the goods to Assange. 

These right-wing memes are a hall of mirrors.  We know the intelligence community warned the Trump campaign that the Kremlin would likely seek to infiltrate and/or influence the Trump campaign, and asked to be told of any suspicious contacts.  We know the Kremlin had *many* contacts with Trump campaign officials, including the Russian ambassador, Kislyak.  We *know* that the campaign did not report these Kremlin contacts.

We have every reason to believe Flynn's contact with Kislyak during the transition was just one more internally-acknowledged contact.  We have good reason to believe Flynn reported back to the transition team.  Pence headed the transition team.  It's not credible that he wasn't aware of ongoing contacts with Kislyak.

Thus, Pence's denial of any campaign contacts was clearly a lie to the public.  When Flynn's contact with Kislyak became public, Pence's only option to save himself was to declare that Flynn was acting alone, a lie.  And so, Flynn was thrown under the bus, so the rest of the campaign could stick to the lie that there was no contact.

All of the campaign leaders who entered government service lied, and denied contacts, under oath and to Congress, and to the FBI.  These are felonies.  Beyond this, the consistency of lies among these individuals can only be credibly interpreted as a conspiracy to commit perjury.

It matters not at all who or how the DNC emails were stolen.  But let's not forget also other separately-stolen e-mails are in the picture.

Let's go ahead a shoot down another right-wing meme/propaganda.  The Steele Dossier is NOT a foundation of the investigation.  It doesn't matter whether it's true, or merely credible, or a tissue of lies.  It's a very peripheral matter.

Let's not forget that the Mueller investigation is *both* a criminal investigation, as well as a national security investigation.  Hacking into voter databases to cause Democratic vote suppression in swing states has been reported.  It's more than plausible that the Kremlin did this to try to assure a Trump win, so that sanctions could be lifted.  Perhaps not coincidentally, the Trump administration appears to have done nothing to try to assure database security in election districts.

And anther right-wing meme/propaganda should be noted.  An FBI agent was found to have texted criticism of Trump (as well as Sanders, Stein, and Hillary).  He was promptly removed from the investigation.  Yet somehow this sequence of events is laid out as proof of bias against Trump by the Mueller team.  The reality is plainly the opposite.  Mueller does not tolerate even the appearance of bias in his team.

There's an abundance of different smoking guns in the picture here.  What doesn't make sense is the right-wing propaganda being disseminated here to try to discredit Mueller.

Let's not forget that the entire leadership of the FBI, including Mueller and Rosenstein, are life-long Republicans.  If there was any dirty tricks by the FBI during the campaign, it was in Trump's favor, not Hillary's.  After all, every inquiry by the FBI about Hillary was leaked to the press.  But investigations into Trump and Manafort were kept quiet.  That speaks volumes about who the purported "Deep State" was favoring.

gerontocrat

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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #2112 on: December 21, 2017, 03:55:40 PM »
Is the definition of an "unimpeachable source" now that there is insufficient evidence for a conviction, as opposed to a source that can be trusted?

The sources quoted in this thread perhaps cluster in the first definition,rather than the second.


unimpeachable adjective

not able to be doubted, questioned, or criticized; entirely trustworthy.
"an unimpeachable witness"

synonyms:   trustworthy, reliable, dependable, unquestionable, unassailable, unchallengeable, above suspicion, beyond suspicion;

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AbruptSLR

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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #2113 on: December 21, 2017, 04:49:29 PM »
Interestingly, the video Assange links to is one in which Dore opines that Assange is telling the world that Seth Rich was the source for Wikileaks DNC leaks, as opposed to the supposed Russian hacks.

If you can get Jeff Sessions to start watching Jimmy Dore then maybe Jeff will appoint a Special Counsel to follow-up on Jimmy's leads/speculations.  After all, Sessions only recused himself from Mueller's investigation of possible collusion by the Trump campaign (of which he was part) ;).
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TerryM

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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #2114 on: December 21, 2017, 05:20:41 PM »

If Seth supplied Wikileaks with leaked, not hacked files, the whole foundation of Russiagate begins to crumble, crushing those who are heavily invested in finding something substantial after all of this effort.


I'm sorry, that's a ridiculous assertion.  The DNC e-mails are only a small part of the overall picture.  And if Assange were selectively releasing only those e-mails harmful to Hillary's campaign, he might certainly fudge on facts about the Kremlin's influence on Wikileaks.

There's no reason to believe Assange's source for the e-mails was the hacker/thief himself.  Anyone with an IQ over 60 would have a third party deliver the goods to Assange. 
Don't be sorry, show some facts!
You accuse Assange of "fudging on facts" because he may have "selectively released only those e-mails harmful to Hillary's campaign" - That's hardly a fact filled refutation, more akin to two ridiculous assertions.



Your second paragraph makes even less sense. Since Seth hadn't traveled to England, and since Assange hasn't left the Embassy, no one with any IQ at all would assume that Seth had "delivered the goods to Assange". It certainly makes a very flimsy straw man, but it doesn't prove much when you blow it down.


I'll leave the balance of your Gish Gallop alone. If I should develop an interest in what the Alt-Right thinks about the election, they have a plethora of sites.
Terry

TerryM

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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #2115 on: December 21, 2017, 05:42:08 PM »
Interestingly, the video Assange links to is one in which Dore opines that Assange is telling the world that Seth Rich was the source for Wikileaks DNC leaks, as opposed to the supposed Russian hacks.

If you can get Jeff Sessions to start watching Jimmy Dore then maybe Jeff will appoint a Special Counsel to follow-up on Jimmy's leads/speculations.  After all, Sessions only recused himself from Mueller's investigation of possible collusion by the Trump campaign (of which he was part) ;) .


It would be nice if someone looked into the allegations that the leak was transported by thumb drive, not the internet, and that the meta data proves this to be so. Having a look, finally, at the DNC servers, also might serve to speed up the "investigation".
Terry
BTW
Jeff Sessions is a particularly unlikable sort, even when compared to other Right Wing Politicians. The idea that he might be doing the honorable thing by recusing himself grates on my every nerve. When the Supremes who were nominated by Daddy Bush didn't recuse themselves in deciding Junior's Presidency, this was to be expected because of the low life creatures that they were. When Jeff recuses himself rather than assisting Donald, I feel as though I'm missing the punchline.

SteveMDFP

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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #2116 on: December 21, 2017, 06:00:44 PM »
Terry, you're the one who suggested Seth supplied Wikileaks with the emails, not me.  Both have the internet, by the way, so nobody had to travel anywhere.

Wikileaks was clearly and plainly doing everything they could to aid Trump over Hillary.  We know this from Don Jr's emails:

The Secret Correspondence Between Donald Trump Jr. and WikiLeaks

https://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2017/11/the-secret-correspondence-between-donald-trump-jr-and-wikileaks/545738/

TerryM

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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #2117 on: December 21, 2017, 07:47:58 PM »
Steve
Don'cha just love it when someone exposing "Secret Correspondence" complains about "Stolen Documents"


I didn't blame Americans when they suddenly, and loudly, demanded FREEDOM FRIES. I have witnessed the strength of your propaganda. I did however prepare my return to Canada.


When this is over it will be remembered just as the Falling Asian Dominoes, the Marching Nicaraguans, Saddam's WMDs, and the Surrender Monkey French are. But by then it's purpose will have been served.
Terry

Buddy

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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #2118 on: December 22, 2017, 02:25:47 AM »
1). Devon Nunez continues to try and save his sorry ass.....by trying to shut down the investigation.  He is acting very guilty...which he is.....

2). FOX News continues work as the right arm of the White House.  Sean Hannity, Jeanine Pirro, and perhaps Rupert Murdoch are throwing everything they have, trying to shut down the Mueller investigation.  I hope Sean wasn't caught on tape...😳😳😳
FOX (RT) News....."The Trump Channel.....where truth and journalism are dead."

AbruptSLR

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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #2119 on: December 22, 2017, 04:46:59 AM »
“It is not the strongest or the most intelligent who will survive but those who can best manage change.”
― Leon C. Megginson

Rob Dekker

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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #2120 on: December 22, 2017, 07:13:28 AM »
When this is over it will be remembered just as the Falling Asian Dominoes, the Marching Nicaraguans, Saddam's WMDs, and the Surrender Monkey French are. But by then it's purpose will have been served.

Maybe it will. But in the mean time there is no reason to spread conspiracy theories about Seth being murdered for leaking DNC documents (as Assange suggests). Especially since there is no evidence AT ALL (including meta data and all that) that this was a leak, rather than a Russian hack, as our security agencies (CIA, FBI and NSA) and private investigators are reporting.

No evidence whatsoever for your conspiracy theory. Nothing at all.
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Hefaistos

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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #2121 on: December 22, 2017, 03:32:47 PM »
... Especially since there is no evidence AT ALL (including meta data and all that) that this was a leak, rather than a Russian hack, as our security agencies (CIA, FBI and NSA) and private investigators are reporting.
...

Sorry we have to come back to this, but the metadata you probably refer to (Guccifer 2.0) was manipulated:

"The Forensicator" has thoroughly analyzed the metadata:
https://theforensicator.wordpress.com/guccifer-2-ngp-van-metadata-analysis/
https://theforensicator.wordpress.com/cf-files-metadata-analysis/

Adam Carter sums it up:
"3rd Party Assessments - Assumptions & Conjecture vs Evidence & Facts
There is a difference between independently verifiable evidence and the activity somebody claims to have engaged in or that can be fabricated in an effort to misdirect and masquerade as someone they're not. - None of Guccifer2.0's claims of hacking were independently verifiable and several were debunked by ThreatConnect. - There is nothing demonstrating Guccifer2.0 was really a hacker.
The "evidence" that he's Russian, should be understood in the following context:
He CHOSE to name his computer account after the founder of the Soviet Secret Police.
He CHOSE to create/open and then save documents so the Russian name was written to metadata.
He CHOSE to use a Russian VPN service to cloak his IP address.
He CHOSE to use public web-based email services that would forward his cloaked IP.
He CHOSE to use the above to contact various media outlets on the same day."

http://g-2.space/#4
http://g-2.space/#6

Hefaistos

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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #2122 on: December 23, 2017, 12:00:10 AM »
There is a profound lack of evidence for the 'Russian part' of Russiagate, i.e. the alleged Russian manipulations of the US presidential election. The allegations of, and MSM hysteria around Russian hacking of the US voting system was recently debunked, but little reported in mass media:

"Russian hackers never attacked a single US state voting system during the 2016 presidential election, Department of Homeland Security National Programs Security Chief Christopher Krebs told the US House of Representatives.
"The majority of the activity was simple scanning. Scanning happens all the time across the web… I would not describe that as an attack," Krebs told a joint hearing of the House Oversight Subcommittees on Wednesday. "Not a single of the 21 states were actually attacked… When you characterize these things as attacks that is overstating… If that context was not provided I apologize."

As reported in The Nation, in a critical article that ends thus: "The tragedy of Russiagate is that its enthusiasts have constructed a “self-sustaining fantasyland” of their own. A fantasyland is no place from which to confront Trump’s reality."
https://www.thenation.com/article/more-media-malpractice-in-russiagate/

Rob Dekker

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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #2123 on: December 23, 2017, 04:57:46 AM »
Dear Hefaistos, I don't think ANY evidence of Russian interference in the elections will convince you.
You can bring a horse to water, but you can't make it drink.

But just in case you forgot, I gave a reasonable overview of the evidence we have, here :

https://forum.arctic-sea-ice.net/index.php/topic,1974.msg134177.html#msg134177

Recap :
Quote
Russian agents intending to sow discord among American citizens disseminated inflammatory posts that reached 126 million users on Facebook
and
Quote
Twitter identified more than 36,000 automated accounts that posted 1.4 million election-related tweets linked to Russia over that three-month period. The tweets received approximately 288 million views, according to the company’s remarks.
and
Quote
I count at least half a dozen hacks that have been attributed to Russian agents (like "Cozy Bear" and "Fancy Bear").

That is not even counting the 19 meetings and 51 communications that the Trump team had with Russian officials, that we KNOW about.

And that is not even counting that almost ALL Trump officials keep on lying about these communications with Russian officials.
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Let's not waste either.

TerryM

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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #2124 on: December 23, 2017, 05:23:55 AM »
Hefaistos


I fear that facts don't matter at this point.
When Hans Blix's, and before him Scott Ritter, said that Iraq had no WMDs, the MSM along with Condalisa rice and Colin Powell shouted louder and millions died. The Rule of Law became The Rule of Lies.


After Muammar Gaddafi gave up his weapons as a show of good faith, Hillery giggled while viewing him being sodomized with a bayonet, on national TV. I don't think she realized how profoundly this would affect her natural voting base.
We know she had played fast and loose with the rules during the primary season. After her unexpected loss at the polls, her own dealings with Russia may have suggested to her that Trump had probably done the same. Vast conspiracy plots followed - except we can't call them conspiracies because so much ink has been spent to ridiculing conspiracy theories. Collusion becomes the word de jour.

When western experts note that the DNC files were downloaded at speeds that preclude an internet connection, MSM responds with obfuscation.
Putin was well aware of Hillary's involvement with Uranium One, had he wanted to interfere with the American election, dropping that bomb would have been far more effective than leaking the DNC's dirty mail. Again, the MSM prefers to blow smoke.

Facts went out of fashion when those evil Vietnamese fishermen attacked the brave Americans cowering in their destroyer, or perhaps it began earlier.
Terry

Rob Dekker

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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #2125 on: December 23, 2017, 05:32:44 AM »
I fear that facts don't matter at this point.

We have many facts on RussiaGate (I summarized some of them above), as opposed to the WMD argument, which was purely based on arguments of authority.

Why don't start with the facts I stated and see where that leads you, rather than starting from your pre-conceived opinion and working backward ?
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Rob Dekker

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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #2126 on: December 23, 2017, 05:39:11 AM »
Hefaistos and Terry, I have a little question for you that is kind of important to me, and serves as a litmus test of your sense of reason and rational thought :

Who shot down MH17 ?

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TerryM

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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #2127 on: December 23, 2017, 06:19:41 AM »
Hefaistos and Terry, I have a little question for you that is kind of important to me, and serves as a litmus test of your sense of reason and rational thought :

Who shot down MH17 ?


Certainly not those who would be directly injured by shooting her down.


I've listened as Putin has been accused of everything except stupidity. For him to have been involved in shooting an airplane out of the sky that was primarily carrying European passengers. just as Europe was deciding on whether to place sanctions on Russia, would require an act of colossal stupidity.


A) A drooling idiot would not do this.
B) Putin is not a drooling idiot.
C) Therefore Putin didn't do it.


As easy as ABC
Terry






Rob Dekker

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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #2128 on: December 23, 2017, 06:50:59 AM »
Terry, you failed the test.
Reason is that you ignored all the evidence we have on who shot down MH17.
You just went with your own preconceived opinion, and reasoned from there.

Now I'm curious about Hefaistos' response.
« Last Edit: December 23, 2017, 07:11:07 AM by Rob Dekker »
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SteveMDFP

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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #2129 on: December 23, 2017, 07:46:39 AM »
There is a profound lack of evidence for the 'Russian part' of Russiagate, i.e. the alleged Russian manipulations of the US presidential election. The allegations of, and MSM hysteria around Russian hacking of the US voting system was recently debunked, but little reported in mass media:

"Russian hackers never attacked a single US state voting system during the 2016 presidential election, Department of Homeland Security National Programs Security Chief Christopher Krebs told the US House of Representatives.
"The majority of the activity was simple scanning. Scanning happens all the time across the web… I would not describe that as an attack," Krebs told a joint hearing of the House Oversight Subcommittees on Wednesday. "Not a single of the 21 states were actually attacked… When you characterize these things as attacks that is overstating… If that context was not provided I apologize."

As reported in The Nation, in a critical article that ends thus: "The tragedy of Russiagate is that its enthusiasts have constructed a “self-sustaining fantasyland” of their own. A fantasyland is no place from which to confront Trump’s reality."
https://www.thenation.com/article/more-media-malpractice-in-russiagate/

Krebs certainly did say that the majority of the activity was scanning only (as would be true of most system hacking attempts on any system).  However, he most certainly did NOT state that not a single state was hacked -- note that this assertion is not a quote. 

He actually stated the opposite, that voter registration data was compromised in some subset of the 21 states, which supports my prior post.  See:
https://www.c-span.org/video/?c4700287/dhs-official-denies-russia-hack-21-state-voting-systems

The Nation seems to have picked up information from Sputnik News without watching the actual video.

Hefaistos

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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #2130 on: December 23, 2017, 08:08:24 AM »
I fear that facts don't matter at this point.

We have many facts on RussiaGate (I summarized some of them above), as opposed to the WMD argument, which was purely based on arguments of authority.

Why don't start with the facts I stated and see where that leads you, rather than starting from your pre-conceived opinion and working backward ?

Yes, it is a fact that some FB and Twitter accounts were run by 'Russians' and the so called troll factory in St.Petersburg. We just don't know who ordered them and run them, because no one has yet been able to say anything concrete about that. Mass media immediately jumped to the conclusion that this was a 'Kremlin' campaign, because mass media is politicized, and anything 'Russia' is deducted to be 'Kremlin', but Rob, where is the evidence for that?
There are various alternative hypotheses here, it has been reported that the troll factory had contacts with Cambridge Analytica (=alt right) so could have been an alt-right thing.
In any case, we should be really careful to deduct that if a private Russian company does some bad , then that was ordered by the Kremlin. Russian IT is a free market, after all, so we really need evidence here, e.g. a money trail.

Hefaistos

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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #2131 on: December 23, 2017, 08:13:16 AM »
Terry, you failed the test.
Reason is that you ignored all the evidence we have on who shot down MH17.
You just went with your own preconceived opinion, and reasoned from there.

Now I'm curious about Hefaistos' response.

I know something about IT business in Russia, on MH17 I have only a very weak opinion.
I think it was the Russians who supplied the BUK, and that it was operated by separatists. They thought they were shooting at some military plane, so made a mistake.

TerryM

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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #2132 on: December 23, 2017, 08:35:35 AM »
Terry, you failed the test.
Reason is that you ignored all the evidence we have on who shot down MH17.
Negative. You are assuming that all agree with your 'evidence', even as you ignore the most exculpatory evidence available, that of irrefutable logic.
Quote
You just went with your own preconceived opinion, and reasoned from there.
My "preconceived opinion", was conceived after a reviewing the facts. ie therefore not preconceived at all.
Your problem is not one of not understanding the language, it's an apparent inability to recognise logical constructs - especially when they clash with your own ideology.



So was proposition A in error?
or was proposition B in error?
Otherwise C must be true.
  8)
an example:
A) 2016 was the hottest ever.
B) 2017 was hotter than 2016
C) Therefore 2017 is the hottest ever.


If A=T
and
If B=T
then
C=T


It doesn't get much easier Rob. Logic 101
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_valid_argument_forms
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Term_logic


Cui Bono
Terry

TerryM

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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #2133 on: December 23, 2017, 08:42:29 AM »
Terry, you failed the test.
Reason is that you ignored all the evidence we have on who shot down MH17.
You just went with your own preconceived opinion, and reasoned from there.

Now I'm curious about Hefaistos' response.

I know something about IT business in Russia, on MH17 I have only a very weak opinion.
I think it was the Russians who supplied the BUK, and that it was operated by separatists. They thought they were shooting at some military plane, so made a mistake.
Fair enough, as long as you're aware that the BUC in question was a very old model not used by the Russian military, but still available throughout Ukraine.
Terry

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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #2134 on: December 23, 2017, 09:09:08 AM »
When this is over it will be remembered just as the Falling Asian Dominoes, the Marching Nicaraguans, Saddam's WMDs, and the Surrender Monkey French are. But by then it's purpose will have been served.

Maybe it will. But in the mean time there is no reason to spread conspiracy theories about Seth being murdered for leaking DNC documents (as Assange suggests). Especially since there is no evidence AT ALL (including excepting meta data and all that) that this was a leak, rather than a Russian hack, as our security agencies (CIA, FBI and NSA) and private investigators are reporting.

No evidence whatsoever for your conspiracy theory. Nothing at all.
Say it three times while spinning backwards to the left, and it will be so.


Telling a lie many times doesn't make it a truth, unless the whole ritual is properly followed.


Goebbels Lied for your sins.
Terry

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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #2135 on: December 23, 2017, 09:40:59 AM »
Jill Stein is a Russian Agent
Jill Stein is a Russian Agent
Jill Stein is a Russian Agent
Jill Stein is a Russian Agent


Repeat until no Greens will ever again vote for a Democrat.


https://www.rt.com/op-edge/413960-jill-stein-collussion-russiagate/


It's dangerous when they start eating their own children.
Terry

NevB

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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #2136 on: December 23, 2017, 10:37:43 AM »
Hefaistos
Quote
on MH17 I have only a very weak opinion.
I think it was the Russians who supplied the BUK, and that it was operated by separatists. They thought they were shooting at some military plane, so made a mistake.

FWIW This is what I believe the available evidence supports.

The first response of the Russian propaganda machine was to insist it was a Ukrainian fighter, then only when this deliberate lie became untenable did they move on to attempting to blame a Ukrainian BUK. Now there are photographs proving that a Russian BUK was in the launch area.

All this to prop up the bigger lie that Russia is not directly involved in Ukraine.

What's worth learning from this is which agencies and outlets supported this lie and why



 

crandles

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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #2137 on: December 23, 2017, 12:07:02 PM »

A) A drooling idiot would not do this.
B) Putin is not a drooling idiot.
C) Therefore Putin didn't do it.

As easy as ABC
Terry

So was proposition A in error?
or was proposition B in error?
Otherwise C must be true.

This logic may work but only as far as: Putin didn't do it personally, in full knowledge of what he was doing.

Putin providing the weapons to forces in Ukraine who probably did know what they were doing but had a different agenda to what Putin wanted (or maybe didn't know what they were doing).

The holes in your logic are obvious.

Agree with Rob, looking to what the evidence says is better than relying on supposition.

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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #2138 on: December 23, 2017, 01:03:20 PM »
Two of the more interesting political races in 2018 will be the governors race and the AG races in Florida.  Donnie already has his boy all lined up.

Ron Desantis is a Congressman in the US House of Representatives.  And it just so happened that Mr. DeSantis was the author of a bill that tried to narrowly limit Bob Mueller's investigation (narrowly limit the time frame that could be looked at).

One thing Donnie DEFINITELY does not want.....is a Democratic governor and AG in Florida.  That would spoil Donnie's day as much as a caddy who makes Donnie count all his strokes.  Donnie has severe legal liability in Mara Lago.  And a Democratic Governor and AG would likely investigate that.

I sure hope the Democrates get the new Puerto Rico residents of Florida to register to vote SOON.  No need to wait on that issue.  That is something that should be done NOW.

FOX (RT) News....."The Trump Channel.....where truth and journalism are dead."

SteveMDFP

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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #2139 on: December 23, 2017, 11:27:48 PM »


When western experts note that the DNC files were downloaded at speeds that preclude an internet connection, MSM responds with obfuscation.

No, the analysis of the published e-mails concerned their having been copied on July 5, 2016 at high speeds.  This proves less than nothing.
It was June 2016 that Assange stated he was in possession of the emails.
The analyzed copying happened well after the hack.  There's no evidence available at all about the speed at which the initial hack happened, or the exact date.

sidd

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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #2140 on: December 24, 2017, 01:20:48 AM »
There are two sets of documents, those from Wikileaks and those from Guccifer. There is some overlap. For a discussion of some of the overlaps see:

https://jimmysllama.com/2017/05/28/9867/

For analysis of transfer speeds of the Guccifer files see:

https://disobedientmedia.com/2017/07/new-research-shows-guccifer-2-0-files-were-copied-locally-not-hacked/

http://g-2.space/

https://theforensicator.wordpress.com/

https://theforensicator.wordpress.com/cf-files-metadata-analysis/

sidd

Rob Dekker

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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #2141 on: December 24, 2017, 04:14:04 AM »
Aiaiai, Terry, what ever happened to your sense of reason.
And since you have so much to say about MH17, why do you keep on ignoring all the evidence we have ? You are arguing with 'logic' arguments assuming we know nothing.

And even your 'logic' arguments are bizarrely wrong.
Take the first one :

Quote
A) A drooling idiot would not do this.
B) Putin is not a drooling idiot.
C) Therefore Putin didn't do it.

That is just logically wrong. In (A) you state that "a drooling idiot" would NOT do this.
So if Putin is NOT a drooling idiot (B) he may very well have done it.
Easy as ABC.
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TerryM

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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #2142 on: December 24, 2017, 06:29:12 AM »

Really
negative gates to prove that Putin shot down MH17 because he's not a drooling idiot?


Susan Rice: "I leaked nothing to nobody and never have and never would."


A) if - Only a drooling idiot would do this
B) and - Putin is not a drooling idiot
C) then - Putin didn't do this


If you don't prefer this structure I'm not adverse to rediting ::)


Terry







Rob Dekker

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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #2143 on: December 24, 2017, 08:37:48 AM »
Terry, you just made a 180 on your point (A).
From "A drooling idiot would not do this" to "Only a drooling idiot would do this".
So which is it, and why ?
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Rob Dekker

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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #2144 on: December 24, 2017, 08:47:52 AM »
I know something about IT business in Russia, on MH17 I have only a very weak opinion.
I think it was the Russians who supplied the BUK, and that it was operated by separatists. They thought they were shooting at some military plane, so made a mistake.

Thank you Hefaistos. That's a lot more in line with the evidence we have than Terry's 'logic'.

Also, this statement is very close to what we have seen reported in MSM ever since two days after July 17. There is a bit of 'groupthink' in this MSM story though.
For example, it is not clear if the "separatists" were ever "operating" that BUK.
From intercepted phone calls, we know that it "came with a crew".
So that would be Russian military crew that was "operating" the BUK.
And since the BUK was positioned only 15 km from the Russian border, it may have very well been in radio contact with a BUK command vehicle just across the border.

There is no evidence that the BUK was ever out of direct control by the Russian military.

Also reason would suggest that the Russian military would not simply hand over a BUK with the keys to some separatists and tell them to "have fun" with it and meanwhile Russian civilian airliners would continue to fly over the area.
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Hefaistos

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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #2145 on: December 24, 2017, 12:14:45 PM »
Rob,

this is OT, also there is a separate thread on Ukraine.
Just want to say that the border is porous, and there is no real difference between people of either side of the border: they are all Russians, they were all part of the same society, they were brothers during USSR.
I doubt that Russian military was directly involved with their enrolled staff, also there was no need of it. The BUK apparently used was rather old, it's Soviet military technology, same systems are used by Ukraine, so would be no problem to find rebels in the separatist area, or Russian volunteers/mercenaries to operate it. Will be a tough call to nail Russia as a perpetrator of war crime, although I personally believe they are guilty.

gerontocrat

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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #2146 on: December 24, 2017, 03:01:24 PM »
Also reason would suggest that the Russian military would not simply hand over a BUK with the keys to some separatists and tell them to "have fun" with it and meanwhile Russian civilian airliners would continue to fly over the area.
Sorry, Mr. Dekker, my experiences in various parts of the world do not support your belief that Russia or any power would hesitate to risk civilians in support of a national objective.

Back in the day the National Logistics Corporation of Pakistan trucked vast amounts of military hardware from Karachi to the NW Frontier on its way to the afghan mujahadeen to have fun with it. We reckoned that the yanks were even buying AK47s, this being the freedom fighters weapon of choice. That didn't work out well, Russia was weakened but Afghanistan became a far greater danger to the West.

Currently vast amounts of hardware are flowing from just about everyone into all sides of the various conflicts in the Middle East. Will that work out well? Will some of the kit be used against the country that supplied it ?

Losing a few civilians and an aircaft or three don't signify in geopolotics.
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AbruptSLR

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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #2147 on: December 24, 2017, 06:47:09 PM »
The linked article states:

"The commandant of the Marine Corps, Gen. Robert Neller, told troops Thursday that "there's a war coming" and urged them to be prepared.

"I hope I'm wrong, but there's a war coming,"
...
"You're in a fight here, an information fight, a political fight, by your presence," he added.

The commandant pointed to Russia and the Pacific theater as the next major areas of conflict, predicting a "big-ass fight" in the future."


Title: "Top Marine general: 'There's a war coming'"

http://thehill.com/blogs/blog-briefing-room/366174-marine-corps-commandant-theres-a-war-coming


See also:

https://www.military.com/daily-news/2017/12/21/marine-leaders-highlight-norway-units-role-deterrent-russia.html
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Rob Dekker

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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #2148 on: December 25, 2017, 10:44:55 AM »
this is OT, also there is a separate thread on Ukraine.
Yes, it is OT, but I brought it up as a test of rational thought and evidence based reasoning in the context of opinions about Russia.
Terry failed the test, you passed (with some side note about the MSM story you assert).

Quote
Just want to say that the border is porous, and there is no real difference between people of either side of the border: they are all Russians, they were all part of the same society, they were brothers during USSR.

Neither of this gives the Russian military the right to invade Ukraine, and certainly not the right to shoot down a civilian airliner, nor the right to deny they had anything to do with either and verifiably lie about it.

Quote
I doubt that Russian military was directly involved with their enrolled staff, also there was no need of it. The BUK apparently used was rather old, it's Soviet military technology, same systems are used by Ukraine, so would be no problem to find rebels in the separatist area, or Russian volunteers/mercenaries to operate it. Will be a tough call to nail Russia as a perpetrator of war crime, although I personally believe they are guilty.

Please follow the evidence rather than making assumptions :
We know that the Russian BUK came with a crew.
We know that they positioned the BUK so that it could connect with a BUK command vehicle in Russia.

So there is no reason to assume that the "separatists" were ever in control of this vehicle.
« Last Edit: December 25, 2017, 10:55:54 AM by Rob Dekker »
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Hefaistos

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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #2149 on: December 25, 2017, 05:40:54 PM »
.Will be a tough call to nail Russia as a perpetrator of war crime, although I personally believe they are guilty.

Please follow the evidence rather than making assumptions :
We know that the Russian BUK came with a crew.
We know that they positioned the BUK so that it could connect with a BUK command vehicle in Russia.

So there is no reason to assume that the "separatists" were ever in control of this vehicle.

If there is such evidence as you claim, it should be presented to the war crimes tribunal in Haag.