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Author Topic: The Russiagate conspiracy theory  (Read 1120109 times)

Hefaistos

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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #2350 on: January 18, 2018, 10:03:32 AM »

For example in Crimea, where Putin invited international extreme-left (Neo-Stalinists) and extreme-right (Neo-Nazis) political figures to 'observe' the illegal 'referendum' in Crimea. Look who he invited :

http://anton-shekhovtsov.blogspot.com/2014/03/pro-russian-extremists-observe.html

It is almost as if extreme left and right have joined hands in a full frontal attack on the voices of reason and rational thought.

Actually, you're not correct about Crimea. I have been to Crimea several times, have relatives there. You could hold that referendum anytime, with any observers you'ld like, and the result would be the same: The vast majority of Crimeans want to belong to Russia.
It's really simple. Crimea was part of Russia and the USSR for 100s of years. It's population is Russian, the language talked was always Russian.
That Crimea was reunited with Russia is just a correction of the historic mistake made by Khruschchev, when he on a whim and a vodka gave the region away in the 1950's.

pileus

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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #2351 on: January 18, 2018, 01:37:38 PM »
Trump's an ass, Republicans are the problem. Putin is innocent.

Trump's an ass, Republicans are the problem. Putin denies everything.

See ? Fixed that for you.
Also never forget MH17.

When someone takes the position “Putin is innocent,” it tells you everything you need to know about them, and their views should either be summarily dismissed or not taken seriously. 

SteveMDFP

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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #2352 on: January 18, 2018, 03:22:51 PM »

Noam Chomsky has recently made some very dangerous statements about NATO, and some very questionable statements about Crimea, both of which reflect Russian and far-right propaganda, which seriously reduced my trust in his opinions.

As Chomsky is now 89, there seems to have been fairly broad opinion here that folks of his age should not be taken seriously in thought and action.  He's shortly to be not just an octogenarian, but a nonagenarian.  We'll have nona that. 

SteveMDFP

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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #2353 on: January 18, 2018, 03:32:11 PM »
. . .
Actually, you're not correct about Crimea. I have been to Crimea several times, have relatives there. You could hold that referendum anytime, with any observers you'ld like, and the result would be the same: The vast majority of Crimeans want to belong to Russia.
It's really simple. Crimea was part of Russia and the USSR for 100s of years. It's population is Russian, the language talked was always Russian.
That Crimea was reunited with Russia is just a correction of the historic mistake made by Khruschchev, when he on a whim and a vodka gave the region away in the 1950's.

I wouldn't dispute any of these words, as far as they go.  However, in the "Budapest Memorandum," the US, UK, and Russia, in exchange for Ukraine giving up nuclear weapons in its territory, all promised to respect Ukraine's then-current borders:  "1. The United States of America, the Russian Federation, and the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland, reaffirm their commitment to Ukraine, in accordance with the principles of the CSCE Final Act, to respect the Independence and Sovereignty and the existing borders of Ukraine."  [emphasis added]

Given the US assurances on this matter, it seems to me the US would be justified in providing Ukraine with sufficient military support to re-establish Crimea as Ukrainian sovereign territory.  Not that that would be wise action, but it would be justified under international law.  See:
The Budapest Memorandum
http://www.pircenter.org/media/content/files/12/13943175580.pdf

So, the Ukraine situation is not as simple as described above.

TerryM

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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #2354 on: January 18, 2018, 07:17:26 PM »

When someone takes the position “Putin is innocent,” it tells you everything you need to know about them, and their views should either be summarily dismissed or not taken seriously.


It appears that some require an exhaustive explanation rather than a curt summary.


There is no credible evidence of collusion, or conspiracy between the Trump campaign and V. Putin at this time. Since considerable resources have been expended in the search for such evidence it becomes increasingly less likely that such evidence will be found.


Since contacts between D. Trump and V. Putin had to have been electronically transmitted at some point, and since the NSA was monitoring both of the involved parties, the NSA would have access to these negotiations, conformations, or declarations.


Unless the NSA has been compromised they can and would have provided Mr. Mueller investigation with the "smoking gun" evidence required.
Had the NSA provided this evidence the investigation would have concluded many months ago, and word of the breakthrough would have leaked.


Should the NSA suddenly discover the "smoking gun" evidence at this late time, many serious questions would be asked about their reticence at producing it in a timely manner. It is unlikely that a satisfactory explanation could be found.


Based on the above, as well as other exculpatory evidence I'm very sure that V. Putin is innocent of the charges of conspiracy with the Trump Campaign that Mrs. Clinton leveled at the end of her unsuccessful presidential run



Terry

AbruptSLR

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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #2355 on: January 18, 2018, 08:22:17 PM »

When someone takes the position “Putin is innocent,” it tells you everything you need to know about them, and their views should either be summarily dismissed or not taken seriously.


It appears that some require an exhaustive explanation rather than a curt summary.

There is no credible evidence of collusion, or conspiracy between the Trump campaign and V. Putin at this time. Since considerable resources have been expended in the search for such evidence it becomes increasingly less likely that such evidence will be found.

Terry,

You are only talking about publically available evidence.  No one on this thread has any idea how much evidence of conspiracy that Mueller has now, and/or will have by the time that his investigation is complete (he hasn't even interviewed Bannon yet).

Hopefully, Mueller is given the opportunity to complete his investigation.

Best,
ASLR

Edit: Per the linked CNN report Mueller just filed paperwork to extend the Papadopoulos case by three months.   This investigation will not be completed for another 6 to 12 months (unless Trump fires Mueller, or Trump quits, first).

http://www.cnn.com/2018/01/17/politics/mueller-papadopoulos/index.html
« Last Edit: January 18, 2018, 08:48:38 PM by AbruptSLR »
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Buddy

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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #2356 on: January 18, 2018, 09:30:08 PM »
Quote
There is no credible evidence of collusion, or conspiracy between the Trump campaign and V. Putin at this time. Since considerable resources have been expended in the search for such evidence it becomes increasingly less likely that such evidence will be found.

Actually.....no.  But this is only the THIRD OR FOURTH TIME that I have tried to explain to those in other countries like AUSTRALIA and CANADA.....that we must not have the same type of criminals that you have in Canada.

You see....in the US you ACTUALLY HAVE TO DO THE INVESTIGATION FIRST.....BEFORE YOU GO TO COURT.  I know....it's really weird.  And during the investigation.....the police/FBI/etc DON'T SHOW THE EVIDENCE TO THE PUBLIC BEFORE GOING TO COURT. 

Really bazar huh?  How do you do the investigations in Canada?  Do your police dribble out the evidence as they go along so they can tip off the criminals to other future evidence or tip them off as to future lines of inquiry?  Boy....I wish I was a criminal in Canada.  ;)

You see.....I only know what we have from publication of investigative reporting.  Which so far....shows that ALMOST ALL OF DONNIE'S CRONIES HAVE BEEN LYING.    I wonder why they would lie so much?  And continually.  And continually about RUSSIANS.  Probably just a coincidence.... ;)

We also know that Donnie has been lying about his extra marital affairs.  And extra marital affairs PAYOFFS.  When someone lies.....and they continue to lie.....they are trying to hide something...OR MANY THINGS.

You can continue to ignore the overwhelming amount of evidence that is PUBLIC if you wish....or if you have an agreement with someone to do so.  That is up to you.  But I think most of the rest of us will continue to look at things as they progress.....and as more and more evidence to the corrupt administration continues to unfold.

Grab some popcorn....this is going on for quite a while longer.  There is a LOT of corruption yet to unwind.  The complicated stuff of money laundering is yet to come.

Poor little corrupt Vladi won't like that one little bit.  He may have to hire a few more hits before this is over......

 
FOX (RT) News....."The Trump Channel.....where truth and journalism are dead."

TerryM

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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #2357 on: January 18, 2018, 09:48:49 PM »
ASLR
While it is theoretically possible that the NSA has handed over incontrovertible evidence of conspiracy, you must admit that it is highly unlikely.
If such evidence was at hand, the investigation would for all practical purposes be at an end, not on course for another year of expensive, disruptive investigations.
Mr. Mueller would have no need of the testimony of George, The Professor, Olga, or even the PP Papers offered by Steele. The case, as a Perry Mason type might intone - Case Closed


If you assume that TPTB are lying about what progress Mueller has made opens a Pandora's box of doubt and uncertainty.
Could Muller actually be investigating Hillary while throwing us off the scent by false leaks? - No, not likely.
Could Mueller have had sufficient evidence to convict Trump in the first weeks of the investigation, but he's dragging it out in an effort to get Bannon? - No, simply not credible.


If the NSA had provided Mueller with the evidence he needed, we would, after all of this time, have been aware of it. Trump's actions would have been different, Mueller's actions would have been different, and McCain and Hillary would be shouting it from the rooftops.
We may have little access to what is transpiring, but those with power, connections, and an interest in the case would ferret it out and would act on their knowledge. We, by watching their actions, can assure ourselves that this breakthrough never occured.


Then we must ask why the NSA came up empty handed.


Terry

AbruptSLR

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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #2358 on: January 19, 2018, 02:54:36 AM »
ASLR
While it is theoretically possible that the NSA has handed over incontrovertible evidence of conspiracy, you must admit that it is highly unlikely.
If such evidence was at hand, the investigation would for all practical purposes be at an end, not on course for another year of expensive, disruptive investigations.
Mr. Mueller would have no need of the testimony of George, The Professor, Olga, or even the PP Papers offered by Steele. The case, as a Perry Mason type might intone - Case Closed


If you assume that TPTB are lying about what progress Mueller has made opens a Pandora's box of doubt and uncertainty.
Could Muller actually be investigating Hillary while throwing us off the scent by false leaks? - No, not likely.
Could Mueller have had sufficient evidence to convict Trump in the first weeks of the investigation, but he's dragging it out in an effort to get Bannon? - No, simply not credible.


If the NSA had provided Mueller with the evidence he needed, we would, after all of this time, have been aware of it. Trump's actions would have been different, Mueller's actions would have been different, and McCain and Hillary would be shouting it from the rooftops.
We may have little access to what is transpiring, but those with power, connections, and an interest in the case would ferret it out and would act on their knowledge. We, by watching their actions, can assure ourselves that this breakthrough never occured.


Then we must ask why the NSA came up empty handed.


Terry

Terry,

No matter what you, or I, think Mueller is charged with continuing his investigation so long as evidence leads toward wrong-doing within the areas of his investigation such as links to a Russian gangster, such as released in the Simpson testimony to the House intelligence committee.

See the attached image from the following Twitter link:

https://twitter.com/rvawonk/status/954109820906430464

Best,
ASLR
“It is not the strongest or the most intelligent who will survive but those who can best manage change.”
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Susan Anderson

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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #2359 on: January 19, 2018, 09:16:52 AM »
@TerryM, you state your opinion as fact and claim that anyone with sense must agree with you. Your trust in the NSA is touching. You seem to forget that 17 US agencies made the claim about Russian influence, not Hillary Clinton. (She lost, she's gone; it's mostly Republicans who want her front and center in this, so they can protect their ascendancy.)

Propaganda - some of which shows actual Russian influence - is not fact. On social media and the internet in general, plenty of biased material is available to bolster one's opinion. Once I've checked and found bias and/or lies, I know I'm on firm ground. Putin's earlier history is covered in 3: "Putin's World" here: https://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2017/03/06/trump-putin-and-the-new-cold-war

I make it my business to keep up with Rachel Maddow's show, which has covered the evidence - there's plenty of it - over time. Regardless of what you think of her didactic professional style, she is a good researcher. Just tonight there was a whole new batch of confirmation from the most recent Fusion transcript, and it fits with what we knew before about Trump's dodgy connections with the Italian and later the Russian mafia and Russian state support for his enterprises over the decades. Trump appears to be a Putin asset, by design. People like Trump are for sale, and Putin and his oligarchs spotted the opportunity early on. They're actively selling prejudice and cynicism, and you appear to have bought it.

(I do think a lot of men are uncomfortable with Maddow's almost masculine pedagogic style, but she does have a PhD from Stanford and is a Rhodes Scholar.)

The avoidance logic here is very similar to that of a persistent unskeptical "skeptic" of climate science. The memes are there, but they don't hold together if closely observed.

Meanwhile, here's some humor (Borowitz Report, also from The New Yorker website):

Quote
WASHINGTON (The Borowitz Report)—The special counsel Robert Mueller announced on Saturday that he was closing the Justice Department’s Russia investigation, “effective immediately,” after hearing that President Vladimir Putin, of Russia, said he was innocent of any election meddling.

Moments after learning about Putin’s assertion, Mueller hastily assembled his staff of investigators to inform them that, now that Putin had fully exonerated himself, there was no point in continuing the probe.

“Vladimir Putin says he did nothing,” Mueller told his staff. “That’s good enough for me.”

Speaking later to reporters, Mueller said that, by disbanding his investigation, he was following the time-honored law-enforcement tradition of taking a suspect’s word for it.

“For the past several months, we’ve assembled tax records, cell-phone recordings, bank transfers, and e-mail communications that indicated Russia was involved in the election,” a visibly shaken Mueller said. “Somehow, we got it wrong—very, very wrong.”

As for his future plans, Mueller said that his first order of business was to write a hearfelt letter of apology to Putin.

“I feel terrible knowing that I’ve spent all this time investigating a person who did absolutely nothing wrong,” he said. “Hindsight is 20/20, but I really should have called him first and asked him what really happened.”

Alexander555

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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #2360 on: January 19, 2018, 09:42:49 AM »
@TerryM, you state your opinion as fact and claim that anyone with sense must agree with you. Your trust in the NSA is touching. You seem to forget that 17 US agencies made the claim about Russian influence, not Hillary Clinton. (She lost, she's gone; it's mostly Republicans who want her front and center in this, so they can protect their ascendancy.)

Propaganda - some of which shows actual Russian influence - is not fact. On social media and the internet in general, plenty of biased material is available to bolster one's opinion. Once I've checked and found bias and/or lies, I know I'm on firm ground. Putin's earlier history is covered in 3: "Putin's World" here: https://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2017/03/06/trump-putin-and-the-new-cold-war

I make it my business to keep up with Rachel Maddow's show, which has covered the evidence - there's plenty of it - over time. Regardless of what you think of her didactic professional style, she is a good researcher. Just tonight there was a whole new batch of confirmation from the most recent Fusion transcript, and it fits with what we knew before about Trump's dodgy connections with the Italian and later the Russian mafia and Russian state support for his enterprises over the decades. Trump appears to be a Putin asset, by design. People like Trump are for sale, and Putin and his oligarchs spotted the opportunity early on. They're actively selling prejudice and cynicism, and you appear to have bought it.

(I do think a lot of men are uncomfortable with Maddow's almost masculine pedagogic style, but she does have a PhD from Stanford and is a Rhodes Scholar.)

The avoidance logic here is very similar to that of a persistent unskeptical "skeptic" of climate science. The memes are there, but they don't hold together if closely observed.

Meanwhile, here's some humor (Borowitz Report, also from The New Yorker website):

Quote
WASHINGTON (The Borowitz Report)—The special counsel Robert Mueller announced on Saturday that he was closing the Justice Department’s Russia investigation, “effective immediately,” after hearing that President Vladimir Putin, of Russia, said he was innocent of any election meddling.

Moments after learning about Putin’s assertion, Mueller hastily assembled his staff of investigators to inform them that, now that Putin had fully exonerated himself, there was no point in continuing the probe.

“Vladimir Putin says he did nothing,” Mueller told his staff. “That’s good enough for me.”

Speaking later to reporters, Mueller said that, by disbanding his investigation, he was following the time-honored law-enforcement tradition of taking a suspect’s word for it.

“For the past several months, we’ve assembled tax records, cell-phone recordings, bank transfers, and e-mail communications that indicated Russia was involved in the election,” a visibly shaken Mueller said. “Somehow, we got it wrong—very, very wrong.”

As for his future plans, Mueller said that his first order of business was to write a hearfelt letter of apology to Putin.

“I feel terrible knowing that I’ve spent all this time investigating a person who did absolutely nothing wrong,” he said. “Hindsight is 20/20, but I really should have called him first and asked him what really happened.”

You should better look to the real problems. A couple months ago i saw in the news that one of these big tech companies in sillicon valley tries to keep their employees behind corperate walls during the day. The reason was that they were drowning in a swamp of hookers, hackers, pimps and drugdealers. That they got into problems in one or the other way. So they had to do meetings, lunch... inside the company. And you think the russians are the problem. You want to conquer the world, but you lost your own home. A friend of mine, he moved from California to New -York because of that. Maybe you should ask sillicon valley to pay for the wall. They are good in building them, so maybe they can also be good in paying them.

Jim Pettit

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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #2361 on: January 19, 2018, 12:51:25 PM »
The pro-Trump, pro-Putin, and anti-Hillary camps looks at the ongoing (and deepening, and widening) investigation, and interpret that to mean that there must be nothing there, since if there were, Mueller would surely have locked everyone up by now.

The pro-truth, anti-conspiracy, and anti-collusion camps look at the ongoing (and deepening, and widening) investigation, and interpret that to mean that there must be much more than we are seeing at the surface, since if there weren't, Mueller would surely have ended the whole thing by now for lack of evidence.

My money is on the latter.

SteveMDFP

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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #2362 on: January 19, 2018, 03:49:06 PM »
. . .
There is no credible evidence of collusion, or conspiracy between the Trump campaign and V. Putin at this time. Since considerable resources have been expended in the search for such evidence it becomes increasingly less likely that such evidence will be found.

Since contacts between D. Trump and V. Putin had to have been electronically transmitted at some point, and since the NSA was monitoring both of the involved parties, the NSA would have access to these negotiations, conformations, or declarations.

Unless the NSA has been compromised they can and would have provided Mr. Mueller investigation with the "smoking gun" evidence required.
Had the NSA provided this evidence the investigation would have concluded many months ago, and word of the breakthrough would have leaked.

Should the NSA suddenly discover the "smoking gun" evidence at this late time, many serious questions would be asked about their reticence at producing it in a timely manner. It is unlikely that a satisfactory explanation could be found.

Based on the above, as well as other exculpatory evidence I'm very sure that V. Putin is innocent of the charges of conspiracy with the Trump Campaign that Mrs. Clinton leveled at the end of her unsuccessful presidential run

Terry

This line of thinking is utterly divorced from reality.  For the umpteenth time (sorry for the necrohippoflagellation), the security agencies deal with classified information obtained by classified means.  Release of classified information is a felony.

And, of course, security agencies collect information that is deemed reliable.  There's a huge difference between reliable classified intelligence and evidence that is admissible in court.

So, the NSA could have delivered a gift-wrapped box of iron-clad evidence to Mueller, even evidence of a quality admissible in court, and Mueller would still have mountains of work to do.  Since the classified evidence cannot be put into a public charging document, nor presented at public trial, Mueller would have to "reverse-engineer" all of it.

So, the NSA could have a recording of Trump having phone chat with Putin like "Hey, Vlad buddy.  You release those damaging emails about Hillary, and I'll get those sanctions lifted."  That tape would be classified.  Mueller, even with tape in hand, would have to conduct depositions of people knowledgeable about the call, so he can present evidence of that chat publicly.  See?

Whether Trump *personally* discussed such an arrangement with Putin himself is of importance only to those who want to defend St. Putin.  Intermediaries were almost certainly used for any arrangement.  Domestically, showing Trump's personal involvement is crucial.  That can only be obtained by deposing witnesses with an ability to speak without incriminating themselves.  This is a slow process.

Overall, "absence of evidence is not evidence of absence."  We don't know what the NSA knows (and likely never will).  We don't know what Mueller has found, and won't until final indictments and reports are filed.

Meanwhile, three agency heads personally testified to Congress that they had no doubt whatsoever that Putin personally ordered interference with the US election.  I cannot believe they would perjure themselves in order to deliver a lie to Congress.  I cannot believe that they're not competent to evaluate classified information.  They were perfectly free to say "Senator, I cannot discuss that question publicly."  Thus, I'm quite certain Putin did as they said.

TerryM

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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #2363 on: January 19, 2018, 06:12:07 PM »
The pro-Trump, pro-Putin, and anti-Hillary camps looks at the ongoing (and deepening, and widening) investigation, and interpret that to mean that there must be nothing there, since if there were, Mueller would surely have locked everyone up by now.

The pro-truth, anti-conspiracy, and anti-collusion camps look at the ongoing (and deepening, and widening) investigation, and interpret that to mean that there must be much more than we are seeing at the surface, since if there weren't, Mueller would surely have ended the whole thing by now for lack of evidence.

My money is on the latter.


Oh My!!
What is a Pro-Putin, anti-conspiracy, anti-collusionist to do?


I do recall another presidential investigation. One that I personally thought went more than a little far afield. They began investigating investigating a cattle deal in Arkansas, then ended up finding that a pig in Washington saved dirty dresses.


Is Mr. Mueller following his own Starr?
Terry





TerryM

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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #2365 on: January 19, 2018, 07:05:49 PM »
I'm sorry Susan, but I've never had the pleasure of hearing Maddow's no doubt dulcet tones. In my defence, Fox News dropped beneath my southern horizon in 2004.
I've had little trust in the media since Walter Cronkite informed me that some 300 Cubans were storming the beach at the Bay of Pigs, without once mentioning the CIA. The actual number was almost 6 times larger, and their command structure has been well known for many decades.


Propaganda it seems has been the one consistent output of American media for my lifetime, at least.


You mention facts, then 17 intelligence agencies. The following contains a short video that may serve to inform you of the inaccuracy of that statement.

https://www.realclearpolitics.com/video/2017/07/06/clapper_confirms_17_intelligence_agencies_russia_story_was_false.html

Everyone's entitled to their own opinions, but not their own facts. Cliches don't serve to promote anyone's argument, but neither does mis-stating known facts.
According to the gentleman who was tasked with putting the report together, it was the work of 24 men from 3 agencies, who acted independently from their organizations.

If Maddow is still going on about 17 agencies, she is certainly not a voice for truth.

Terry
PS
You didn't come to your views on global warming while watching cable news, why not apply the same diligence to this search for truth?




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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #2366 on: January 19, 2018, 07:09:39 PM »
Russia purged suspected spies after Trump dossier release:

https://www.yahoo.com/news/russia-purged-suspected-spies-trump-095612542.html

FOX (RT) News....."The Trump Channel.....where truth and journalism are dead."

Susan Anderson

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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #2367 on: January 19, 2018, 09:11:52 PM »
@TerryM

Thanks for the link. Here's an update two weeks later: https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/intelligence-director-says-agencies-agree-russian-meddling-n785481

Quote
ASPEN, Colorado — Daniel Coats, the director of national intelligence, said Friday there is no dissent inside U.S. intelligence agencies about the conclusion that Russia used hacking and fake news to interfere in the 2016 presidential election — despite comments by his boss, President Donald Trump, that have seemed to cast some doubt about the unanimity.

In an interview with NBC Nightly News anchor Lester Holt at the Aspen Security Forum, Coats said that the reason only four of 17 intelligence agencies signed onto the January assessment describing the Russian effort is that the other agencies were not involved in gathering and analyzing the intelligence.

Maddow did not mention the 17 agencies. That was me, and I didn't bother to check back, being my own worst enemy there. There is large agreement among the agencies, but I should have skipped that one or checked it more carefully. That does not excuse you ignoring everything that is said except things the comfort your prejudices.

I've been told this (I think the 14 November one) reads like a spy novel. Have at it, it's the original documents:
https://intelligence.house.gov/news/documentsingle.aspx?DocumentID=850

Meanwhile, I suggest you stop blocking information you don't like. Maddow's colleague Lawrence O'Donnell uses Moynihan's tag line about not being entitled to your own facts.

By the way, Fox, which is network news, is far right. MSNBC is cable news, and tends more moderate to progressive. I don't get it on my free TV at home, not wanting to pay, but I do check online because Maddow is a superb reporter and researcher, and puts it all together in real time.
« Last Edit: January 19, 2018, 09:21:07 PM by Susan Anderson »

Susan Anderson

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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #2368 on: January 19, 2018, 09:20:25 PM »
New material: https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2018/jan/19/trump-russia-inquiry-is-told-nigel-farage-may-have-given-julian-assange-data

Quote
Trump-Russia inquiry is told Nigel Farage may have given Julian Assange data

Private investigator tells House panel Farage gave thumb drive to Assange, who officials view as a conduit for the Russian government

TerryM

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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #2369 on: January 20, 2018, 12:18:14 AM »
@TerryM

Thanks for the link. Here's an update two weeks later: https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/intelligence-director-says-agencies-agree-russian-meddling-n785481

Quote
ASPEN, Colorado — Daniel Coats, the director of national intelligence, said Friday there is no dissent inside U.S. intelligence agencies about the conclusion that Russia used hacking and fake news to interfere in the 2016 presidential election — despite comments by his boss, President Donald Trump, that have seemed to cast some doubt about the unanimity.

In an interview with NBC Nightly News anchor Lester Holt at the Aspen Security Forum, Coats said that the reason only four of 17 intelligence agencies signed onto the January assessment describing the Russian effort is that the other agencies were not involved in gathering and analyzing the intelligence.

Maddow did not mention the 17 agencies. That was me, and I didn't bother to check back, being my own worst enemy there. There is large agreement among the agencies, but I should have skipped that one or checked it more carefully. That does not excuse you ignoring everything that is said except things the comfort your prejudices.

I've been told this (I think the 14 November one) reads like a spy novel. Have at it, it's the original documents:
https://intelligence.house.gov/news/documentsingle.aspx?DocumentID=850

Meanwhile, I suggest you stop blocking information you don't like. Maddow's colleague Lawrence O'Donnell uses Moynihan's tag line about not being entitled to your own facts.

By the way, Fox, which is network news, is far right. MSNBC is cable news, and tends more moderate to progressive. I don't get it on my free TV at home, not wanting to pay, but I do check online because Maddow is a superb reporter and researcher, and puts it all together in real time.


I simply don't view television as a reliable news source, and haven't for a very long time. Since moving north in 2004 I haven't viewed TV news at all. With the one exception of spinning through the dial a few months ago while away at a symposium.


I've written previously of my discomfort on that occasion.
The propaganda, to my jaundiced eye, exceeded even those heady days when good wine was flushed down the drain, and Freedom Fries were served in the capital.


It's very unlikely that I'll ever learn the names of any of the TV anchors. It has nothing to do with the matter at hand, rather my noticing over long periods of time that the facts according to talking heads didn't match what was eventually accepted as truth.


You are old enough to recall what passed for facts during Vietnam, Laos, Cambodia. Remember how Dr. Castro the hero became Mr. Castro the evil Commie, or was that one before your time.
When last I watched MSNBC they were locally known, (in Las Vegas), as the Monica Lewinsky Channel, for their round the clock coverage of that "scandal".


I'm intelligent enough, and well enough read, to do my own analysis. I don't require a Maddow to think for me, or even to point me in the right direction. From what I've seen you also possess  these assets.
I'm interested in your thoughts, not the thoughts of a corporate head who hires his Maddows to express his talking points on air.


Not watching TV news isn't a bug, it's a feature that I'll almost certainly avail myself of.


Your horribly cliched.
Terry

TerryM

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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #2370 on: January 20, 2018, 12:35:47 AM »
New material: https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2018/jan/19/trump-russia-inquiry-is-told-nigel-farage-may-have-given-julian-assange-data

Quote
Trump-Russia inquiry is told Nigel Farage may have given Julian Assange data

Private investigator tells House panel Farage gave thumb drive to Assange, who officials view as a conduit for the Russian government


My bet's on local girl made good Pamela Anderson, (no relative I hope). She's "met" with Assange, has more places to hide a thumb drive, and she's definitely better clickbait. ::)


Actually, since both the US and the Brits have been keeping a very close eye on the Ecuadorian Embassy, it should be easy to either confirm that such a meeting took place, or that it did not.
If a meeting did take place it wouldn't confirm Steel's "opinion", but if no such assignation occurred it would further damage his credibility.
Terry

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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #2371 on: January 20, 2018, 12:45:20 AM »
This guy on Twitter noted that the Manafort/Gates indictment was labelled 'B', meaning that Mueller has a stilled sealed indictment on related charges labelled 'A'.  As I have read that for such legal matters an indictment labelled 'A' would be tied to someone higher-up the food chain than those named in a 'B' indictment.  As Pence was not related to the charges against Manafort/Gates, that leaves The Donald:

https://twitter.com/kieransuckling/status/925030925716545536

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AbruptSLR

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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #2372 on: January 20, 2018, 02:06:48 AM »
Mueller is circling ever closer to Trump & his family:

Title: "Jared Kushner’s Firm Tied to “Suspicious Transactions” at German Bank"

http://www.motherjones.com/politics/2018/01/deutsche-bank-reports-suspicious-activity-related-to-jared-kushners-accounts-1/

Extract: "Deutsche Bank notified German regulators, and Robert Mueller will likely be given the reports.

A German business magazine is reporting that Deutsche Bank, the German financial giant which is a major lender to both President Donald Trump and his son-in-law Jared Kushner, identified “suspicious transactions” related to Kushner family accounts, and has reported them to German banking regulators. The bank is reportedly willing to provide the information to special prosecutor Robert Mueller’s team of investigators."

See also:

Title: "Deutsche Bank flags 'suspicious transactions' tied to Kushners: report"

http://thehill.com/homenews/news/369850-deutsche-bank-flags-suspicious-transactions-tied-to-kushners-report

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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #2373 on: January 20, 2018, 05:22:33 AM »
Deutsche Bank, thats a 42 trillion derivative exposure. How much more fake can it get ?

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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #2374 on: January 20, 2018, 05:47:30 AM »
If the democrats used the FBI for their personal interests. Than it means that everything is rotten to the core. So the memo should be released. Because you can not have people that are rotten to the core at positions where they should protect society. And if that's the case, than you know war is comming.

Alexander555

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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #2375 on: January 20, 2018, 06:44:19 AM »
No wonder that hookers and pimps are taking over your country.

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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #2376 on: January 20, 2018, 10:04:30 PM »
Oh My!!
What is a Pro-Putin, anti-conspiracy, anti-collusionist to do?


I do recall another presidential investigation. One that I personally thought went more than a little far afield. They began investigating investigating a cattle deal in Arkansas, then ended up finding that a pig in Washington saved dirty dresses.


Is Mr. Mueller following his own Starr?

Yeah, the default position of members of the Trump Fan Club is that the ongoing investigation into evidence of conspiracy against the US (and money laundering, and lying, and obstruction of justice, and failure to register as a foreign agent, and so on) committed by Trump and his sycophants is absolutely no different than an $80 million, decade-long investigation into 20-year-old allegations of investment fraud by the Clintons that led to no charges against Bill and Hillary aside from lying about a blowjob.

If you ask me, that's one desperate bridge too far.

Republicans threw everything they had at the Clintons, and came up pretty much empty-handed. On the other hand, Trump's egregious violations of state and federal law are on display for all to see, and it's only a matter of time before he goes down.

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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #2377 on: January 20, 2018, 11:39:50 PM »
I wonder what effects the (partial) US government shutdown will have on Mueller's investigations.

Will he have to (officially) do nothing?
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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #2378 on: January 21, 2018, 04:10:23 AM »
I wonder what effects the (partial) US government shutdown will have on Mueller's investigations.

Will he have to (officially) do nothing?

Mueller's investigation continues even during government shutdowns.
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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #2379 on: January 22, 2018, 07:57:35 PM »
It will be interesting to eventually find-out what Mueller learned from his talks with Bannon's associate George Nader:

Title: "Scoop: Mueller's interest in a mysterious White House visitor"

https://www.axios.com/scoop-muellers-interest-in-a-mysterious-white-house-visitor-1516568389-6d406353-c96b-438f-99dc-9d9dc31413de.html

Extract: "Special Counsel Robert Mueller's team has been talking with George Nader, a little-known Bannon associate who boasts of his well-placed connections in the Middle East, Axios has learned.

Nader has spoken with Mueller's team at least twice, according to a source briefed on the investigation. A second source briefed on the investigation confirmed that Mueller's team has brought Nader in for questioning in the past week. The Special Counsel's office declined to comment."
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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #2380 on: January 23, 2018, 02:38:13 AM »
WH pressure on Wray following WH pressure on Comey is not normal WH behavior, and it reeks of obstruction of justice:

Title: "Scoop: FBI director threatened to resign amid Trump, Sessions pressure"

https://www.axios.com/scoop-1516661397-877adb3e-5f8d-44a1-8a2f-d4f0894ca6a7.html
« Last Edit: January 23, 2018, 05:07:06 PM by AbruptSLR »
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Buddy

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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #2381 on: January 23, 2018, 03:40:47 PM »
Quote
WH pressure on Wray follow WH pressure on Comey is not normal WH behavior, and it reeks of obstruction of justice:

Just more of the same.  Donnie will have to get the FBI investigation shut down to survive.  And he continues to "act" like a guilty party who WANTS to shut it down ASAP.  And this brings Sessions further into the morass. 

Donnie and Jared are fighting for their own economic life.  Looks like Donnie has been using the Russian's for decades in his businesses to launder money....and now it looks as though Jared is looking to the Chinese to bail out his 666 Building and his company (with a little help from questionable Israeli firms).

As Rachael would say...."put a pin in the Israeli connections"....because a line of investigation may head towards Israel as well (even as Benjamin Netanyahu continues to be under investigation in Israel for several corruption issues).

https://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/all-scandals-involving-netanyahu-where-they-stand-1.5448174


FOX (RT) News....."The Trump Channel.....where truth and journalism are dead."

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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #2382 on: January 23, 2018, 05:07:56 PM »
Mueller's probe has now reached Trump's cabinet member, by interviewing Sessions last week:

Title: "Mueller probe interviewed Jeff Sessions: NYT"

https://www.axios.com/mueller-interviews-sessions-report-1516719103-3c0cc7a1-51a3-40b8-85aa-604739153148.html?source=sidebar
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AbruptSLR

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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #2383 on: January 23, 2018, 05:21:18 PM »
If Simona Manglante knows what she is talking about then Trump may be in world of hurt as the Mueller investigation unfolds:

Title: "Former Trump Aide’s Fiancee Warns White House: ‘A Lot To Come’"

https://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/papadopoulos-fiancee-speaks_us_5a669c71e4b0e5630072d8a5

Extract: "The fiancee of George Papadopoulos, a former foreign policy adviser to President Donald Trump who pleaded guilty to lying to the FBI last year, said there’s a lot the public doesn’t know yet.

“There’s a lot to come,” Simona Mangiante told The Washington Post. “He was the first one to break a hole on all of this.”

She didn’t give details, but said Papadopoulos would be remembered as the John Dean of the Russia scandal."
« Last Edit: January 23, 2018, 06:23:48 PM by AbruptSLR »
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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #2384 on: January 23, 2018, 06:24:13 PM »
It will be interesting to see how much of the Steele Dossier that Mueller is eventually able to verify:

Title: "Was This Russian General Murdered Over the Steele Dossier?"

https://www.thedailybeast.com/was-this-russian-general-murdered-over-the-steele-dossier

Extract: "The notorious dossier on Trump that Republicans want to discredit may well have been credible enough in Russian President Vladimir Putin’s eyes to get at least one person killed."
“It is not the strongest or the most intelligent who will survive but those who can best manage change.”
― Leon C. Megginson

AbruptSLR

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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #2385 on: January 23, 2018, 07:41:03 PM »
As both the Russians and the GOP/Trump simultaneously attack Mueller, key Democrats seek help to defend Mueller's probe

Title: "Russia is attempting to influence Mueller investigation in an 'ongoing attack,' Democrats say"

https://www.cnbc.com/2018/01/23/democrats-warn-russia-trying-to-influence-mueller-investigation.html

Extract:
•   "California Democrats Sen. Dianne Feinstein and Rep. Adam Schiff released a letter to the CEOs of Twitter and Facebook warning of possible Russian influence on the special counsel's investigation.
•   A website monitoring Russia-linked Twitter accounts found that their use of #releasethememo increased nearly 300,000 percent in just a few days.
•   The politicians urged the CEOs to conduct their own examination and submit their findings to Congress."

See also:

Title: "Trump and Russia Both Seek to Exacerbate the Same Political Divisions"

https://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2018/01/trump-russia-twitter/551093/

Extract: "But if the share of today’s whites who regard black NFL players as uppity ingrates significantly shrinks; if fear of Muslim immigrants wanes; if native-born Americans bear less animosity toward undocumented Mexican immigrants, regardless of their views on border security or illegal immigration; then all of those wins for American unity would be blows to the political prospects of Trump, Pence, the GOP in the 2018 midterms, and the foreign adversaries who want to weaken the United States.

Thus, they divide Americans as a means to an end, and the GOP as a whole is implicated. The deal with the devil that Republicans made by embracing a charlatan birther, sticking with him through a bigoted campaign, and propelling him to a victory that thrilled the likes of Richard Spencer has a clause that does ongoing harm to our country: One of America’s two political parties now benefits politically, in the short term, from the polarization of the country along racial and ethnic lines, just as surely as the Republican Party of 1968 and 1972 benefited from that era’s tumult and division."
« Last Edit: January 23, 2018, 07:46:06 PM by AbruptSLR »
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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #2386 on: January 23, 2018, 07:46:28 PM »
No wonder Trump had Sessions pressure Wray to fire Deputy Director Andrew McCabe:

Title: "FBI investigating whether Russian money went to NRA to help Trump"

http://www.mcclatchydc.com/news/nation-world/national/article195231139.html

Extract: "The FBI is investigating whether a top Russian banker with ties to the Kremlin illegally funneled money to the National Rifle Association to help Donald Trump win the presidency, two sources familiar with the matter have told McClatchy.

FBI counterintelligence investigators have focused on the activities of Alexander Torshin, the deputy governor of Russia’s central bank who is known for his close relationships with both Russian President Vladimir Putin and the NRA, the sources said.

It is illegal to use foreign money to influence federal elections."
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AbruptSLR

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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #2387 on: January 23, 2018, 08:07:19 PM »
The FBI texts show that the two FBI employees treated the anti-Clinton forces (i.e. Trump & the GOP) with kid gloves:

Title: "FBI Texts Reveal Major Flaw In GOP Theory Of ‘Deep State’ Plot To Defeat Trump"

https://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/fbi-texts-trump-clinton-deep-state_us_5a615538e4b01d91b25449c9

Extract: "Messages between two FBI employees show they recoiled at the idea of using government power against anti-Clinton forces."
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AbruptSLR

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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #2388 on: January 23, 2018, 08:16:41 PM »
Does Trump's liaison with Stormy Daniels increase the likelihood that the pee pee tapes are real?

Title: "Donald Trump's alleged porn star liaisons in Lake Tahoe – and the Russia dossier"

https://www.mercurynews.com/2018/01/17/donald-trumps-alleged-porn-star-dalliances-in-lake-tahoe-and-the-steele-dossier/
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AbruptSLR

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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #2389 on: January 23, 2018, 09:41:26 PM »
Russiagate should be view in terms of Russia's larger expansionist agenda in Europe and the rest of the world:

Title: "Russia is biggest threat to UK since cold war, says head of British army"

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2018/jan/22/russia-is-biggest-threat-since-cold-war-says-head-of-british-army

Extract: "The chief of the general staff, Gen Sir Nicholas Carter, has described Russia as the biggest state-based threat to the UK since the cold war and warned that hostilities could begin a lot sooner than the UK expects.
..
Meanwhile, the former defence secretary, Sir Michael Fallon, used his first speech since resigning in November to add to calls for increased defence spending, citing what he called growing threats from Russia and cyber-attacks."
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AbruptSLR

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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #2390 on: January 23, 2018, 11:39:19 PM »
Who knows, but with all these leaks (including that he interviewed Comey last year) today, maybe Mueller is preparing to drop an indictment regarding obstruction of justice soon:

Title: "Mueller's office spoke with Sessions, Comey in Russia investigation"

https://www.cnn.com/2018/01/23/politics/jeff-sessions-robert-mueller-interview/index.html

Extract: "Special counsel Robert Mueller's office has spoken with both Attorney General Jeff Sessions and former FBI Director James Comey, it was revealed Tuesday."
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AbruptSLR

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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #2391 on: January 23, 2018, 11:58:33 PM »
More evidence that Mueller is focusing (initially) on an obstruction of justice charge:

Title: "Report: Mueller seeks to interview Trump on Comey & Flynn firings"

https://www.axios.com/report-mueller-seeks-interview-trump-about-comey-and-1516741064-d943671b-af8a-4294-8bea-b1037ebafdc2.html?source=sidebar

Extract: "Why it matters: This latest revelation suggests that Mueller is focusing on Trump's efforts to obstruct justice."
“It is not the strongest or the most intelligent who will survive but those who can best manage change.”
― Leon C. Megginson

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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #2392 on: January 24, 2018, 12:21:17 AM »
As Sessions did not bring a criminal defense attorney with him to his interview last week with Mueller, this raises the question of whether Sessions may have obtained a plea deal from Mueller (prior to the interview) that would protect Sessions from criminal prosecution (including obstruction of justice):

Title: "Missing From Mueller’s Interview of Sessions: A Criminal Lawyer"

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2018-01-23/missing-from-mueller-s-interview-of-sessions-a-criminal-lawyer

Extract: "When Attorney General Jeff Sessions was called in for an interview last week with the special counsel investigating Russian election interference, he turned to a friend and fellow Alabama lawyer to accompany him.

The lawyer, Chuck Cooper, worked in the Reagan Justice Department and is well-known in conservative circles for his private-practice work on social causes, such as defending a California law that banned same-sex marriage.

What Cooper isn’t known for is criminal work, a fact that surprised some white-collar criminal lawyers who questioned Sessions’ decision.

“No one — no one — should ever speak to law enforcement without a criminal defense attorney present,” said Michael Koenig, a former federal prosecutor now at Hinckley, Allen & Snyder. “It does not matter how smart, experienced, educated or innocent someone is.”
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AbruptSLR

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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #2393 on: January 24, 2018, 12:53:38 AM »
The biggest reason for Mueller to indict Trump on obstruction of justice charges sooner, rather than later, is to prevent Trump from firing Mueller; which would give Mueller sufficient time to complete his Russia investigation by the mid-term elections.
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TerryM

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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #2394 on: January 24, 2018, 02:00:37 AM »
More evidence that Mueller is focusing (initially) on an obstruction of justice charge:

Title: "Report: Mueller seeks to interview Trump on Comey & Flynn firings"

https://www.axios.com/report-mueller-seeks-interview-trump-about-comey-and-1516741064-d943671b-af8a-4294-8bea-b1037ebafdc2.html?source=sidebar

Extract: "Why it matters: This latest revelation suggests that Mueller is focusing on Trump's efforts to obstruct justice."


ASLR
I'm sure that you were unaware that Axios is the mouthpiece for Bankers, Big Pharma, Big Oil, Boeing, Healthcare, Walmart, and of course the Koch Brothers.


Axios' initial launch partners are JP Morgan & Chase Co., PhRma, Boeing, BP, Bank of America, Koch Industries, S&P Global, United Health Group, Walmart, PepsiCo and Cooley LLP.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Axios_(website)

The fact that the FBI and the Justice Department haven't yet issued a denial of Axio's claims is hardly a testimonial to the truth of these claims.
Terry


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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #2395 on: January 24, 2018, 02:33:45 AM »
No wonder Trump had Sessions pressure Wray to fire Deputy Director Andrew McCabe:

Title: "FBI investigating whether Russian money went to NRA to help Trump"

http://www.mcclatchydc.com/news/nation-world/national/article195231139.html

Extract: "The FBI is investigating whether a top Russian banker with ties to the Kremlin illegally funneled money to the National Rifle Association to help Donald Trump win the presidency, two sources familiar with the matter have told McClatchy.

FBI counterintelligence investigators have focused on the activities of Alexander Torshin, the deputy governor of Russia’s central bank who is known for his close relationships with both Russian President Vladimir Putin and the NRA, the sources said.

It is illegal to use foreign money to influence federal elections."


From your link:




"We have not been contacted by the FBI about anything related to Russia," said Steven Hart, an outside attorney for the NRA, in a statement provided to McClatchy five days after publication of this story."
[/size]
The bank official is a lifetime member of the NRA, again according to your link, so this is hardly a contact cobbled together for the purposes of getting Trump elected.



Terry

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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #2396 on: January 24, 2018, 02:48:59 AM »
...
ASLR
I'm sure that you were unaware that Axios is the mouthpiece for Bankers, Big Pharma, Big Oil, Boeing, Healthcare, Walmart, and of course the Koch Brothers.
...
Terry

While I acknowledge that love of money can corrupt; what really matters here is what Mueller can prove, if/when Mueller drops an obstruction of justice charge on Trump ;).  If my gut is correct, such an indictment may be tabled within a month.
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TerryM

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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #2397 on: January 24, 2018, 03:02:00 AM »
Russiagate should be view in terms of Russia's larger expansionist agenda in Europe and the rest of the world:

Title: "Russia is biggest threat to UK since cold war, says head of British army"

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2018/jan/22/russia-is-biggest-threat-since-cold-war-says-head-of-british-army

Extract: "The chief of the general staff, Gen Sir Nicholas Carter, has described Russia as the biggest state-based threat to the UK since the cold war and warned that hostilities could begin a lot sooner than the UK expects.
..
Meanwhile, the former defence secretary, Sir Michael Fallon, used his first speech since resigning in November to add to calls for increased defence spending, citing what he called growing threats from Russia and cyber-attacks."


HOLD THE PRESS
The British MIC cites threats from outside as they ask for additional funds.


Meanwhile, Sir John Fallon, the disgraced former conservative who apparently has exhibited problems holding both alcohol and women, and who had resigned his office just this past November chimed in.


From Wiki
Terry


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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #2398 on: January 24, 2018, 03:12:58 AM »
...
ASLR
I'm sure that you were unaware that Axios is the mouthpiece for Bankers, Big Pharma, Big Oil, Boeing, Healthcare, Walmart, and of course the Koch Brothers.
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Terry

While I acknowledge that love of money can corrupt; what really matters here is what Mueller can prove, if/when Mueller drops an obstruction of justice charge on Trump ;) .  If my gut is correct, such an indictment may be tabled within a month.


Within a month you say, that would be Feb. 23, 2018. We will see soon enough.
Is this the same Mueller who brought an obstruction of justice charge against Papadopoulos for having deleted his web page after the FBI questioned him re. it's contents?


Didn't the house recently vote on impeachment?
Didn't the Democrats overwhelmingly vote against it?


Terry

AbruptSLR

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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #2399 on: January 24, 2018, 04:17:39 AM »
Didn't the house recently vote on impeachment?
Didn't the Democrats overwhelmingly vote against it?


Terry

At least I made a clear projection.  What exactly is your point?
“It is not the strongest or the most intelligent who will survive but those who can best manage change.”
― Leon C. Megginson