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TerryM

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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #2750 on: February 17, 2018, 12:39:31 AM »

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neoliberalism
Quote
Neoliberalism or neo-liberalism refers primarily to the 20th-century resurgence of 19th-century ideas associated with laissez-faire economic liberalism. Such ideas include economic liberalization policies such as privatization, austerity, deregulation, free trade, and reductions in government spending in order to increase the role of the private sector in the economy and society. These market-based ideas and the policies they inspired constitute a paradigm shift away from the post-war Keynesian consensus which lasted from 1945 to 1980.
Privatizing public spaces - as in San Francisco, under Pelosi's watchful eye?


We got our heads beaten in trying to keep People's Park in public hands. How can Pelusi sell off The Presidio and call herself a liberal?


Terry - People's Park March 2 - I was the looong haired guy passing out the Gallo, the giant with the paper cups was "Big Jim", and "Alfie" was the little topless chick.

Martin Gisser

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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #2751 on: February 17, 2018, 01:45:32 AM »
In the weeks leading up to the election, I saw *lots* of ads in my local Baltimore-area Craigslist, seeking to purchase temporary use of Facebook accounts.  I figured it must have something to do with a marketing plan for some new product. 

Right after the election, all these ads to purchase use of Facebook accounts vanished.  I suspect the new product was pro-Trump/anti-Hillary propaganda.

[...]

https://researchbuzz.me/2016/03/26/whats-with-this-rent-out-your-facebook-account-craigslist-ad/


I bet that was the 13 Russians with help by Richard Pinedo to cover their tracks.

https://edition.cnn.com/2018/02/16/politics/richard-pinedo-guilty-plea/index.html
Quote
[...]
The Russians had opened accounts on PayPal using stolen identities of people in the US, prosecutors said. The related indictment of the Russians listed 14 bank accounts they used.
Pinedo's service, called Auction Essistance, helped users circumvent the online security feature that tests whether a person's identity is real, [...]
« Last Edit: February 17, 2018, 02:19:09 AM by Martin Gisser »

Martin Gisser

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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #2752 on: February 17, 2018, 02:24:00 AM »
Nice of you to pick up on my hint about Mossadegh and use it against current Democrats. [...]
CIA whataboutism would be more honest with post cold-war stuff.

Similar with FBI whataboutisms: Some of FBI agents/bureaus were rightfully called "the pigs" in the Black Panther era. But these times are long gone. Time to get over that.
« Last Edit: February 17, 2018, 02:30:49 AM by Martin Gisser »

Martin Gisser

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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #2753 on: February 17, 2018, 02:56:11 AM »
What I'm itching for is the main missing piece.  That is, evidence that these activities were undertaken as part of a quid pro quo with the Trump campaign, to remove sanctions. 
Itching for the Flynn-Kislyak tapes.

Else the case is clear enough. Trump hasn't dissolved NATO, but refuses to implement the new sanctions enacted by congress. RExxon Tillerson is eagerly helping by dismantling sanctions oversight.

This bears repeating:




Martin Gisser

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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #2754 on: February 17, 2018, 03:16:01 AM »
Right now, must-watch: Yet another historical Rachel Maddow episode, Friday weirdness #x. If you're too lazy to read up the indictment.
« Last Edit: February 17, 2018, 03:23:21 AM by Martin Gisser »

pileus

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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #2755 on: February 17, 2018, 03:53:02 AM »
Amusing but not unexpected to see the fox and trump bots pushing the incorrect conclusion about today’s indictments. 

Mueller’s work continues, there was no declaration of or requirement of completion today.

Martin Gisser

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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #2756 on: February 17, 2018, 04:46:59 AM »
Just to make them extreme-Berners and Russiagate deniers scream, let me quote the Palmer report in full:

The Republican primary was rigged for Donald Trump too

If you’ve been paying close attention over the past year, you’ve seen the mounting evidence that the Russians didn’t just rig the general election in Donald Trump’s favor, they rigged the Republican primary race in Trump’s favor as well. Today we finally got specific confirmation of that, when the details of the rigged GOP primary were included in the indictments against thirteen Russians who conspired to rig the election.

In the full text of today’s indictments, it’s revealed that the Russians conspired to harm the presidential candidacies of Marco Rubio and Ted Cruz, the two Republicans who ended up competing the most closely with Trump for the Republican Party nomination. Rubio previously revealed during public hearings in May of 2017 that Russian hackers had targeted him after he dropped out of the presidential race and decided to run for reelection in the Senate. But now we have grand jury confirmation that the Russians were taking down Trump’s opponents during the primary race in order to try to make sure he won the nomination.

This is a crucial point because, while it’s becoming more painfully clear by the day that Hillary Clinton is the rightfully elected President of the United States, we now also have confirmation that Trump didn’t even legitimately win the Republican nomination. He never qualified for the general election. Without the Russians conspiring to rig things, the general election was supposed to have been Hillary vs Rubio, or Hillary vs Cruz.

Today’s indictments also specifically confirm that the Russians conspired to help Bernie Sanders during the Democratic primary race. There is no evidence whatsoever that Bernie was in on this plot, or that he even knew about it. For all of the ridiculous (and thoroughly debunked) claims that the Democratic primary was somehow rigged in Hillary Clinton’s favor, now we have proof that it was in fact rigged against Hillary. No matter who you voted for, in either primary race or in the general election, this should piss you the hell off – because it’s a violation of our sovereign right to vote. Thanks to the Trump-Russia plot, this was a fake election from start to finish.


http://www.palmerreport.com/analysis/republican-primary-rigged-trump/7983/

Rob Dekker

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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #2757 on: February 17, 2018, 05:35:44 AM »
I just glanced through the indictment, and wow.
The amount of detail Mueller's team uncovered is astounding.

We all knew about the Internet Research Agency in St. Petersburg, and in my research on MH17 way back in 2014 I uncovered the connection via FAN to Concord, and control by (Putin's "chef" and close friend) Prigozhin :

https://forum.arctic-sea-ice.net/index.php/topic,1974.msg134276/topicseen.html#msg134276

It is still interesting to see my findings confirmed in an official indictment.

But I had no idea about the insane amount of details that Mueller made public now.
I mean, stuff like this :

Quote
To conceal its involvement, CONCORD labeled the monies paid to the ORGANIZATION for Project Lakhta as payments related to software support and development. To further conceal the source of funds, CONCORD distributed monies to the ORGANIZATION through approximately fourteen bank accounts held in the names of CONCORD affiliates, including Glavnaya Liniya LLC, Merkuriy LLC, Obshchepit LLC, Potentsial LLC, RSP LLC, ASP LLC, MTTs LLC, Kompleksservis LLC, SPb Kulinariya LLC, Almira LLC, Pishchevik LLC, Galant LLC, Rayteks LLC, and Standart LLC.

and even this :

Quote
a. PRIGOZHIN approved and supported the ORGANIZATION's operations, and Defendants and their co-conspirators were aware of PRIGOZHIN's role.

b. For example, on or about May 29, 2016, Defendants and their co-conspirators, through an ORGANIZATION-controlled social media account, arranged for a real U.S. person to stand in front of the White House in the District of Columbia under false pretenses to hold a sign that read "Happy 55th Birthday Dear Boss." Defendants and their co-conspirators informed the real U.S. person that the sign was for someone who "is a leader here and our boss ... our funder." PRIGOZHIN's Russian passport identifies his date of birth as June 1, 1961.

And I just started reading this 37 page report.

https://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2018/02/rosenstein-mueller-indictment-russia/553601/

I'm impressed. Thank you Mueller !

[edit] Waiting for the Putin apologists here to pooh pooh Mueller's report.. 3.2.1..
Or ignore it and change the subject like Terry just did.
« Last Edit: February 17, 2018, 06:13:31 AM by Rob Dekker »
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Let's not waste either.

Bruce Steele

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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #2758 on: February 17, 2018, 06:56:16 AM »
Rob, I don't think this is over yet. Indictments aren't convictions. Do we convict them in absentia ? I still like my friend Terry and if I could channel him I would ask whether we would go to the same extremes to destabilize Russian elections?  How about Iran? Or Chile ? Ancient history ?  So when chucking stones be careful about that glass house we inhabit.
 The question remains Why? I don't think we will ever know.
 
 



sidd

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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #2759 on: February 17, 2018, 07:27:49 AM »
The indictment of is interesting reading, and finally presents direct evidence of covert organized foreign attempts to influence the 2016 election. Charges include

1) bank and wire fraud

2) identity theft

3) election law violation

The budget was a million or so  US$ a month by september 2016, but that covers several arenas. Let's say a million a month. 24 million USD since 2014.

Now the really explosive bit might be if Mueller has evidence of Russian government involvement. If he does he may not be permitted to disclose, the State secrets laws have been used pretty indiscriminately through the Bush (the lesser) and Obama presidencies.

These guys look like amateurs on hiding the money. Could have hidden their money trail thru Panama,Delaware,Nevada, Bermuda or a a host of other places ?  Panama papers has a blow by blow on how to hide money in/out of the USA using Panama and Nevada corps for the low, low price of under 10KUS$. For other ways, look at

https://theintercept.com/2018/02/15/chinese-state-owned-chemical-firm-joins-dark-money-group-pouring-cash-into-u-s-elections/

sidd
« Last Edit: February 17, 2018, 07:36:24 AM by sidd »

Archimid

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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #2760 on: February 17, 2018, 10:48:02 AM »
Why?

Trump is significantly reducing the US diplomatic presence  in the rest of the world, creating an opening for Putin and his interests to gain influence.

Trump is also blinding the federal government about climate change, which means an open arctic for him and the dream of a warmer Russia at the very same time  the US faces climate change unprepared. It also means he gets to profit from the Russian  people's oil for longer.

 Then there is the systematic misinformation warfare that Trump is executing on the US. Unless it's stopped the US will decend into chaos and the last vestiges of good governance will be a thing of the past.

What Trump gains? A much larger share of power in a very diminished US. Probably a good deal for him
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pileus

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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #2761 on: February 17, 2018, 03:54:21 PM »
As always lawfare blog is a great destination for analysis in the latest WRT TrumpRussia’s role in the 2016 election.

https://www.lawfareblog.com/russian-influence-campaign-whats-latest-mueller-indictment

“President Trump has spent the year since his victory casting doubt on the very premise that Russia interfered in the 2016 presidential election. Yet here is the Justice Department on the record declaring that the Russia investigation isn’t, in fact, a witch hunt. It isn’t a hoax. It isn’t just a “phony Democrat excuse for losing the election,” as the president has tweeted. There really was, the Justice Department is saying, a Russian influence operation to interfere in the U.S. political system during the 2016 presidential election, and it really was at the expense of Hillary Clinton and in favor of Donald Trump.”
—————
“The indictment’s silence on American involvement led the White House to declare in a press release that Mueller has shown “NO COLLUSION”.  The president would be wise to cool his heels on such claims of vindication. The fact that this indictment doesn’t allege misconduct on the American side does not necessarily mean that Mueller lacks evidence to support such an allegation—or that he will not develop it in the future. This indictment deals with a limited subject matter: one aspect of the Russian operation—that involving social media influence measures—undertaken by non-governmental actors. It makes a point of not addressing the conduct of U.S. actors. That is neither inculpatory or vindicating. It is, rather, a deferral of the matter to another day.“

What this indictment does, rather, is establish part of the predicate for a later claim of collusion. That is, the indictment details part of what it was that any Americans might have been colluding with.

Buddy

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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #2762 on: February 17, 2018, 04:25:57 PM »
Traitor Don's Wish List:

1)  The supposed Russia election meddling is a hoax.

2)  Nobody on staff met with Russians.

3)  Nobody on our staff lied about meeting with Russians.

4)  I'll be glad to talk with Mueller

5) Nobody on our staff colluded with Russians

Tick...tick...tick....  Time is slipping away Traitor Don.

FOX (RT) News....."The Trump Channel.....where truth and journalism are dead."

SteveMDFP

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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #2763 on: February 17, 2018, 04:43:45 PM »
In the weeks leading up to the election, I saw *lots* of ads in my local Baltimore-area Craigslist, seeking to purchase temporary use of Facebook accounts.  I figured it must have something to do with a marketing plan for some new product. 

Right after the election, all these ads to purchase use of Facebook accounts vanished.  I suspect the new product was pro-Trump/anti-Hillary propaganda.

[...]

https://researchbuzz.me/2016/03/26/whats-with-this-rent-out-your-facebook-account-craigslist-ad/


I bet that was the 13 Russians with help by Richard Pinedo to cover their tracks.

https://edition.cnn.com/2018/02/16/politics/richard-pinedo-guilty-plea/index.html
Quote
[...]
The Russians had opened accounts on PayPal using stolen identities of people in the US, prosecutors said. The related indictment of the Russians listed 14 bank accounts they used.
Pinedo's service, called Auction Essistance, helped users circumvent the online security feature that tests whether a person's identity is real, [...]

Great research!!!!!!  That's exactly the kind of ads I saw on Baltimore's CraigsList in the weeks before the election.  No such ads now.   

Susan Anderson

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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #2764 on: February 17, 2018, 07:22:48 PM »
The question of what Russia is doing in Syria was mentioned in my favorite news source (The New Yorker) here. Lots more in the article: https://www.newyorker.com/news/news-desk/putins-shadow-army-suffers-a-setback-in-syria.

Quote
Shadowy,undeclared mercenary forces are attractive for several reasons: they allow the Kremlin to maintain the fiction that Russia is fighting from the air only, giving Putin the opportunity to declare an easy victory and avoid public discontent over the loss of human lives during a dragged-out conflict. Last December, during a surprise visit to a Russian airbase in Syria, Putin said that the “task of combating the armed groups here in Syria” had been “largely resolved,” and made a show of ordering many Russian units to leave the country.

Over the last two and a half years, Russia’s intervention in Syria has served several of the country’s interests, as Putin sees them. It saved the Assad regime from defeat, holding off the spectre of a regime change, and secured Russia an undeniable and influential role in the geopolitics of the Middle East. Considering Russia’s isolation in the aftermath of the conflict in Ukraine, Putin must consider it a fortuitous turn of events. It has also allowed Russia’s military officials and war planners to test a new generation of Russian weapons and military strategy. In Syria, Russia deployed drones widely, and launched air strikes with weapons guided by the country’s GLONASS navigation system. “The use of private military companies is part of this process of trial and error,” Ruslan Pukhov, a leading defense analyst and the director of the Center for Analysis of Strategies and Technologies, said. The appearance of groups like Wagner on the battlefield in Syria represents a “complete innovation” in Russian military practice, he told me.

AbruptSLR

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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #2765 on: February 17, 2018, 08:52:37 PM »
Buzzfeed has subpoenaed the DOJ to release the details FISA court probe ruling that relied on the Steele dossier (Buzzfeed is defending itself from a defamation lawsuit from a Russian businessman because they published the who Steele dossier); and now that Trump declassified the Nunes memo, the judge in the Buzzfeed case is evaluating whether Trump has effectively declassified the entire probe:

Title: "U.S. tries to keep some Russia probe details secret despite Republican memo"

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-usa-trump-russia-dossier/u-s-tries-to-keep-some-russia-probe-details-secret-despite-republican-memo-idUSKCN1FZ2Z1

Extract: "The U.S. Justice Department on Thursday fought in federal court to keep some minor details of its counterintelligence probe into Russian interference in the 2016 election under wraps, even after President Donald Trump had unwrapped them.

Earlier this month, Trump declassified a Republican memo which alleges that the FBI used a dossier prepared by a former British intelligence officer to authorize surveillance on a Trump campaign adviser suspected of being a Russian agent.

Despite that unprecedented public disclosure, a Justice Department lawyer told a judge in oral arguments at the U.S. District Court for the District of Columbia on Thursday that the government still cannot reveal the date when it received a complete copy of the dossier for fear it might “confirm previously unconfirmed facts about a law enforcement-sensitive” investigation.

That argument exasperated U.S. District Court Judge Amit Mehta, who said that Trump has since changed the landscape for what can be disclosed by declassifying details of a counterintelligence investigation.

“That’s going to be a hard sell, given what the president’s done,” Mehta said. “He has now declassified an entire national security investigation.”

Mehta said that normally the Justice Department’s objections to providing such information in private litigation would be justified. But, “this isn’t the ordinary case,” he said."
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TerryM

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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #2766 on: February 17, 2018, 09:15:16 PM »
It's amazing how happy both sides are with Mueller's latest offering.
I think I'll withhold judgment, at least for the moment.


Since attempting to interfere with foreign elections apparently violates American laws, I do expect some changes to be made. I never appreciated the Voice of America anyway, and the CIA World Factbook may require extensive rewrites.


I don't expect Russian Nationals in Russia to be subject to American laws, any more than I expect Americans to obey Canadian laws regulating such things as hate speech. What does seem reasonable is that government agencies should be following the laws espoused by their own government.


Terry
BTW - Wasn't Vicente Fox saying very nasty things about the present President during the last campaign season? I know he's within the reach of the FBI because I saw him on the Bill Maher Show last night.
A quick arrest would signal to the world that America won't stand for foreign nationals interfering in their electoral process.

Neven

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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #2767 on: February 17, 2018, 11:04:59 PM »
BTW - Wasn't Vicente Fox saying very nasty things about the present President during the last campaign season? I know he's within the reach of the FBI because I saw him on the Bill Maher Show last night.
A quick arrest would signal to the world that America won't stand for foreign nationals interfering in their electoral process.

Terry, to be fair, when Fox said that, it was clear to everyone that it was Fox who was saying this. These Russians, if they did what they did, hid behind anonymity.

Which is the larger problem here, of course: social media, its business proposition and anonymity.

If something fundamental isn't changed in how social media works, you get what we're seeing now: Censorship by social media corporations (with the risk that people get censored that aren't doing anything wrong per se, but whose opinions aren't appreciated by TPTB, like environmentalists, etc) and the possibility of accusing political opponents of getting foreign help, which may be untrue or a false flag operation, and thus also influencing elections. Edit: You see how they also try to attach this stuff to Sanders, who was the real threat to the establishment, and might still be.

It's interesting to see a profit machine like social media get manipulated like this (although I'm still not sure about relative magnitude). I knew social media is mostly shit that dumbs people down, one could even argue that consumer culture is a propaganda narrative in itself, but this is a whole new dimension. I wonder how things will develop, but I imagine it won't be good for the people. Who to trust?
« Last Edit: February 18, 2018, 12:18:52 AM by Neven »
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Hefaistos

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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #2768 on: February 17, 2018, 11:09:25 PM »
...
Now the really explosive bit might be if Mueller has evidence of Russian government involvement. ...
sidd

I doubt there is such evidence, as these services are more likely to have been ordered by, or created jointly with Cambridge Analytica/Mercer et al., rather than by the Kremlin.
That would be really explosive, if revealed. Hopefully Mueller can follow the money trail a bit further.
I have previously linked an article from The Guardian that shows such links between the Internet Research Agency and Cambridge Analytica/Mercer/Bannon:
https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2017/oct/28/trump-assange-bannon-farage-bound-together-in-unholy-alliance

https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2017/may/07/the-great-british-brexit-robbery-hijacked-democracy
« Last Edit: February 17, 2018, 11:36:31 PM by Hefaistos »

Neven

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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #2769 on: February 18, 2018, 12:19:11 AM »
I thought this was interesting to watch:

The enemy is within
Don't confuse me with him

E. Smith

Rob Dekker

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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #2770 on: February 18, 2018, 04:34:17 AM »
...
Now the really explosive bit might be if Mueller has evidence of Russian government involvement. ...
sidd

I doubt there is such evidence, as these services are more likely to have been ordered by, or created jointly with Cambridge Analytica/Mercer et al., rather than by the Kremlin.
That would be really explosive, if revealed. Hopefully Mueller can follow the money trail a bit further.

Mueller followed the money and it led to PRIGOZHIN (Putin's puppet), not to Cambridge Analytica.

Quote
I have previously linked an article from The Guardian that shows such links between the Internet Research Agency and Cambridge Analytica/Mercer/Bannon:
https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2017/oct/28/trump-assange-bannon-farage-bound-together-in-unholy-alliance

https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2017/may/07/the-great-british-brexit-robbery-hijacked-democracy

These articles show all kind of money trails and connections to Mercer and Cambridge Analytica, and the connection between the Brexit referendum and the Trump election.

But they don't even mention Internet Research Agency.

From the evidence we have now, it looks like the Russians acted alone.
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Martin Gisser

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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #2771 on: February 18, 2018, 05:23:11 AM »
Russiagate has been a nice study of denial. Seems it still is. Now come the lukewarmers.

Rob Dekker

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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #2772 on: February 18, 2018, 08:24:16 AM »
Russiagate has been a nice study of denial. Seems it still is. Now come the lukewarmers.

I've been called worse, so I take that as a compliment.

Mueller showed a direct line of financing from Putin's puppet PRIGOZHIN to  Internet Research Agency. That's one way in which Russia meddled in our elections.

The other direction was highlighted in the  Navalny video.
AbruptSLR posted on that previously, but it seems that this was largely overlooked in this thread :
https://forum.arctic-sea-ice.net/index.php/topic,1974.msg141528.html#msg141528

Quote
3. Within 48 hours after Page being in Moscow, Manafort wrote to Oleg Deripaska to offer him 'briefings' (most likely about Trump's willingness to reduce sanctions against Russia), which most likely Deripaska would pass on to his friend Putin.

4. The Navalny video shows Deripaska with Russian deputy prime minister Prikhodko on the yacht in Norway in early August 2016, which Navalny explains is how Deripaska passed information (likely about Trump's willingness to cut sanctions) from Manafort to Putin.  This meeting on the yacht was just about a month after Manafort offered Deripaska briefings.

The connection from the Trump Campaign, via Manafort, to Deripaska and right to Russian deputy prime minister Prikhodko is clearly established.
So Putin knew exactly what was going on in the Trump campaign.
« Last Edit: February 18, 2018, 08:55:15 AM by Rob Dekker »
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Hefaistos

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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #2773 on: February 18, 2018, 11:42:11 AM »
...
Now the really explosive bit might be if Mueller has evidence of Russian government involvement. ...
sidd

I doubt there is such evidence, as these services are more likely to have been ordered by, or created jointly with Cambridge Analytica/Mercer et al., rather than by the Kremlin.
That would be really explosive, if revealed. Hopefully Mueller can follow the money trail a bit further.

Mueller followed the money and it led to PRIGOZHIN (Putin's puppet), not to Cambridge Analytica.

Quote
I have previously linked an article from The Guardian that shows such links between the Internet Research Agency and Cambridge Analytica/Mercer/Bannon:
https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2017/oct/28/trump-assange-bannon-farage-bound-together-in-unholy-alliance

https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2017/may/07/the-great-british-brexit-robbery-hijacked-democracy

These articles show all kind of money trails and connections to Mercer and Cambridge Analytica, and the connection between the Brexit referendum and the Trump election.

But they don't even mention Internet Research Agency.

From the evidence we have now, it looks like the Russians acted alone.

Correct, the article says about connections between CA and the Russians: "Multiple Cambridge Analytica sources have revealed other links to Russia, including trips to the country, meetings with executives from Russian state-owned companies, and references by SCL employees to working for Russian entities."

Anyway, CA, Jared Kushner, and Flynn are in the investigators cross-hairs regarding this:

"... we know that congressional and DOJ investigators believe that Trump’s campaign might have helped guide Russia’s voter targeting scheme and that Flynn, who worked for Trump’s campaign and with Cambridge Analytica, is suspected of having extensive ties with Russian operatives."

https://www.vox.com/policy-and-politics/2017/10/16/15657512/mueller-fbi-cambridge-analytica-trump-russia

http://www.mcclatchydc.com/news/nation-world/national/article160803619.html

https://www.thedailybeast.com/russia-probe-now-investigating-cambridge-analytica-trumps-psychographic-data-gurus

DrTskoul

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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #2774 on: February 18, 2018, 01:02:55 PM »
It's amazing how happy both sides are with Mueller's latest offering.
I think I'll withhold judgment, at least for the moment.


Since attempting to interfere with foreign elections apparently violates American laws, I do expect some changes to be made. I never appreciated the Voice of America anyway, and the CIA World Factbook may require extensive rewrites.


I don't expect Russian Nationals in Russia to be subject to American laws, any more than I expect Americans to obey Canadian laws regulating such things as hate speech. What does seem reasonable is that government agencies should be following the laws espoused by their own government.


Terry
BTW - Wasn't Vicente Fox saying very nasty things about the present President during the last campaign season? I know he's within the reach of the FBI because I saw him on the Bill Maher Show last night.
A quick arrest would signal to the world that America won't stand for foreign nationals interfering in their electoral process.

Missing the point there... intentionally me thinks. And foreign national has the right to speak their mind about any politician anywhere. In US at lest they cannot provide monies or pay for events and campaign materials- that is whats illegal. Vicente or Putin or Boris speaking their mind is not....

SteveMDFP

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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #2775 on: February 18, 2018, 03:00:52 PM »

Privatizing public spaces - as in San Francisco, under Pelosi's watchful eye?

We got our heads beaten in trying to keep People's Park in public hands. How can Pelusi sell off The Presidio and call herself a liberal?
 

She didn't sell off the Presidio.  It went from Army-owned property to a National Park, rather than to be sold off to developers.   She accomplished this by making a compromise, having it run by a Federally-chartered Trust, that would operate it at zero cost to the government.  So, there's some commercial presence in this national park.  That's better than it being sold for high-rises.

See:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Presidio_of_San_Francisco

and note:
The Presidio Trust: Blueprint for privatization?
"Rep. Nancy Pelosi, who holds Burton's old seat, says that the trust was the only way she could get park status for the Presidio, given the values of House Speaker Newt Gingrich and his crowd."
https://www.sfgate.com/news/article/The-Presidio-Trust-Blueprint-for-privatization-3111548.php

This is what effective leadership in Congress does.  They have to be willing to let go of ideal solutions that won't pass, in favor of compromise solutions that will.  Then they get condemned by the less compromising and less realistic members of their own party.

[edited to correct quoting]
« Last Edit: February 18, 2018, 03:54:57 PM by SteveMDFP »

pileus

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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #2776 on: February 18, 2018, 03:09:56 PM »
Trump is off the rails this morning.  Not what you would expect from an innocent man.

AbruptSLR

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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #2777 on: February 18, 2018, 03:38:17 PM »
Seth Abramson indicates that Yulya Alferova, the ex-wife of Artem Klyushin, met and socialized with Trump during the 2013 Miss Universe weekend, and that as a result of that meeting she apparently knew that Trump was planning on running for President by late 2013.  Furthermore, Abramson indicates that Artem Klyushin fits the profile of the man that Trump's bodyguard Keith Schiller says offered to send-up five Russian prostitutes to spend the night with Trump when the alleged Pee Pee tape was made.  At the minimum this proves that the Russian know that Trump was going to run for president before the 13 indicted Russian started their disinformation campaign in 2014, and that Klyushin may have been operating under directions from the Kremlin (via oligarchs) to set-up Trump for kompromat:

https://www.trendsmap.com/twitter/tweet/964976324749209601
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AbruptSLR

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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #2778 on: February 18, 2018, 03:47:19 PM »
It seems likely that the Kremlin had multiple lines of kompromat on Trump including money-laundering:

Title: "Is Money-Laundering the Real Trump Kompromat?"

https://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2018/01/theres-a-potential-for-russian-leverage-here/551024/

Extract: "In November testimony, Fusion GPS’s Glenn Simpson outlined a potential scheme to the House Intelligence Committee, but it hasn’t pursued the line of investigation."
“It is not the strongest or the most intelligent who will survive but those who can best manage change.”
― Leon C. Megginson

AbruptSLR

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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #2779 on: February 18, 2018, 04:10:19 PM »
Trump is off the rails this morning.  Not what you would expect from an innocent man.

On Sunday morning, Trump went after: a) the Russiagate investigations, b) the FBI, c) his own national security advisor H.R. McMaster, d) Obama and e) Liddle' Adam Schiff; but he intentionally did not criticize Russia's interference in the 2016 election:

Title: "Trump attacks everyone but Russia"

https://www.politico.com/story/2018/02/18/trump-twitter-mueller-fbi-russia-scandal-416858

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AbruptSLR

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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #2780 on: February 18, 2018, 04:26:29 PM »
It certainly seems like job one in America is to improve the level of education of its general public so that they will not be such easy prey for future election interference schemes:

Title: "Flummoxed Facebook helped Mueller"

https://www.axios.com/flummoxed-facebook-helped-mueller-1518964258-749d4c84-80c1-4b92-810b-bd10ca8e7430.html

Extract: "Facebook cooperated with special counsel Robert Mueller, quietly supplying Russian-placed material that was cited in Friday's blockbuster indictment.

We live in era of blaming others. But the Mueller indictment makes it clear that many 2016 voters didn't pay attention to what they read, shared or reacted to. So they were easy prey. Still are. Nothing has really changed."
“It is not the strongest or the most intelligent who will survive but those who can best manage change.”
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DrTskoul

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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #2781 on: February 18, 2018, 04:33:00 PM »
It certainly seems like job one in America is to improve the level of education of its general public so that they will not be such easy prey for future election interference schemes:

Title: "Flummoxed Facebook helped Mueller"

https://www.axios.com/flummoxed-facebook-helped-mueller-1518964258-749d4c84-80c1-4b92-810b-bd10ca8e7430.html

Extract: "Facebook cooperated with special counsel Robert Mueller, quietly supplying Russian-placed material that was cited in Friday's blockbuster indictment.

We live in era of blaming others. But the Mueller indictment makes it clear that many 2016 voters didn't pay attention to what they read, shared or reacted to. So they were easy prey. Still are. Nothing has really changed."

+1

AbruptSLR

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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #2782 on: February 18, 2018, 04:58:29 PM »
Now that Mueller has indicted 13 Russians for digitally influencing the 2016 election, we should remember that Mueller is likely investigating Jared Kushner's and Eric Trump's possible links to the Russian's digital disinformation campaign:

Title: "Trump campaign digital director: 'Not one person made a decision' without Kushner and Eric Trump's 'approval'"

http://www.businessinsider.com/jared-kushner-eric-trump-russia-investigation-tweets-2018-1
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Martin Gisser

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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #2783 on: February 18, 2018, 05:18:05 PM »
Russiagate has been a nice study of denial. Seems it still is. Now come the lukewarmers.

I've been called worse, so I take that as a compliment.
I guess I didn't mean you. It's a general observation, but examples also dwell here.

AbruptSLR

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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #2784 on: February 18, 2018, 10:49:05 PM »
I think that clapper knows what he is talking about:

Title: "Clapper predicts 'other shoes to drop' in Mueller probe"

https://www.politico.com/story/2018/02/18/clapper-mueller-russia-probe-white-house-416865

Extract: "Former Director of National Intelligence James Clapper predicted Sunday that there are "other shoes to drop" in special counsel Robert Mueller's probe of Russian election meddling, including potential ties to the Kremlin by those seeking to sway the election.
Clapper said Friday's indictment of 13 Russian nationals and three foreign entities, which includes charges of conspiracy to defraud the United States and aggravated identity theft, served to validate findings by the intelligence community on Russian election interference.

But the former intelligence chief, who served under Presidents George W. Bush and Barack Obama, predicted that Mueller's team had yet to fully reveal its findings.

"I do think there are other shoes to drop here besides this indictment," Clapper told Dana Bash on CNN's "State of the Union.""
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TerryM

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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #2785 on: February 18, 2018, 11:45:48 PM »
It's amazing how happy both sides are with Mueller's latest offering.
I think I'll withhold judgment, at least for the moment.


Since attempting to interfere with foreign elections apparently violates American laws, I do expect some changes to be made. I never appreciated the Voice of America anyway, and the CIA World Factbook may require extensive rewrites.


I don't expect Russian Nationals in Russia to be subject to American laws, any more than I expect Americans to obey Canadian laws regulating such things as hate speech. What does seem reasonable is that government agencies should be following the laws espoused by their own government.


Terry
BTW - Wasn't Vicente Fox saying very nasty things about the present President during the last campaign season? I know he's within the reach of the FBI because I saw him on the Bill Maher Show last night.
A quick arrest would signal to the world that America won't stand for foreign nationals interfering in their electoral process.

Missing the point there... intentionally me thinks. And foreign national has the right to speak their mind about any politician anywhere. In US at lest they cannot provide monies or pay for events and campaign materials- that is whats illegal. Vicente or Putin or Boris speaking their mind is not....
Didn't the SCOTUS rule that money and speech were equivalent when it came to the constitutionally protected freedom of (political) speech?
I don't want to imply that I agree with this ruling, just pointing out what I believe is the law of the land.


Neven apparently believes that the difference between covert and overt actions is enough to have one ruled as acceptable, while the other is illegal. He may have a point, though I'm sceptical.


How would the court decide a case where the defendant was accused of overtly signaling his support for a matter that he was covertly opposed to, when he was aware that he was so unpopular that his support would doom the issue?


I think it's much more likely that covert and overt support would be equal under the law, if only to avoid such legal conundrums.


Terry
BTW - Read something that said that most of the Russian media money was spent after the election rather than during the election cycle. If true, should this be seen as exculpatory evidence, interesting, but unrelated to the charges, or as further proof that 13 Russians had conspired against Hillary's Presidency?




SteveMDFP

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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #2786 on: February 19, 2018, 12:18:38 AM »

Didn't the SCOTUS rule that money and speech were equivalent when it came to the constitutionally protected freedom of (political) speech?
I don't want to imply that I agree with this ruling, just pointing out what I believe is the law of the land.

Neven apparently believes that the difference between covert and overt actions is enough to have one ruled as acceptable, while the other is illegal. He may have a point, though I'm sceptical.

How would the court decide a case where the defendant was accused of overtly signaling his support for a matter that he was covertly opposed to, when he was aware that he was so unpopular that his support would doom the issue?

I think it's much more likely that covert and overt support would be equal under the law, if only to avoid such legal conundrums.

Terry
BTW - Read something that said that most of the Russian media money was spent after the election rather than during the election cycle. If true, should this be seen as exculpatory evidence, interesting, but unrelated to the charges, or as further proof that 13 Russians had conspired against Hillary's Presidency?

In the Citizens United case, SCOTUS did rule that using money is protected as speech in election contests, in a specific context, with specific limitations.  First, such free spending cannot be in coordination with the official campaign, or else it's a campaign contribution, still subject to strict limits, strict scrutiny, and severe penalties.

Second, in election activities, it only applies to US citizens.  Foreign nationals are still forbidden to spend to elect a given candidate.  SCOTUS utterly failed to see how allowing corporations to spend their money automatically opened the door to foreign monies entering the game.  I blogged about this the day after their decision.

Otherwise, the Mueller indictment emphasized that the named defendants were engaged in fraud.  They engaged in straightforward bank fraud.  And they falsely portrayed themselves as acting as Americans.

Being anonymous/covert was less the issue than fraud, and making organized efforts in an election as foreign nationals.

Should it transpire that their activities took place with the knowledge and encouragement of the Trump campaign, then all those involved campaign officials face criminal prosecution.  It's not credible to me that Herr Gropenfuhrer wasn't personally involved. 

Even if it was all backed by an oligarch acting alone, rather than the Kremlin itself (not a credible possibility in my view), the Trump administration still faces criminal prosecution.

How would any foreigner bankrolling this not seek Trump's knowledge and encouragement?  Having that would make Trump beholden, on pain of prosecution.  A very powerful position for whoever bankrolled the operation.  So, of course Trump knew and approved.

Steve

Martin Gisser

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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #2787 on: February 19, 2018, 12:25:33 AM »
Underreprted and rarely linked:

https://www.volkskrant.nl/media/dutch-agencies-provide-crucial-intel-about-russia-s-interference-in-us-elections~a4561913/
Quote
Dutch agencies provide crucial intel about Russia's interference in US-elections
Hackers from the Dutch intelligence service AIVD have provided the FBI with crucial information about Russian interference with the American elections.  For years, AIVD had access to the infamous Russian hacker group Cozy Bear. That's what de Volkskrant and Nieuwsuur have uncovered in their investigation.

Door: Huib Modderkolk 25 januari 2018, 21:00

[...]
It's also grounds for the FBI to start an investigation into the influence of the Russian interference on the election [...]


[...]

From the pictures taken of visitors, the AIVD deduces that the hacker group is led by Russia's external intelligence agency SVR.
[...]

The translation could be better. Maybe a job for Neven? :)
« Last Edit: February 19, 2018, 12:32:55 AM by Martin Gisser »

AbruptSLR

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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #2788 on: February 19, 2018, 12:32:52 AM »
The fraud charge that Rick Gates will plead guilty to occurred during the 2016 campaign; which proves that Trump is wrong when he says that no one in his campaign colluded with Russians:

Title: "Former Trump aide Rick Gates to plead guilty; agrees to testify against Manafort, sources say"

http://www.latimes.com/politics/la-na-pol-rick-gates-plea-deal-20180218-story.html

Extract: "A former top aide to Donald Trump's presidential campaign will plead guilty to fraud-related charges within days – and has made clear to prosecutors that he would testify against Paul J. Manafort Jr., the lawyer-lobbyist who once managed the campaign.

The change of heart by Trump's former deputy campaign manager, Richard W. Gates III, who had pleaded not guilty after being indicted in October on charges similar to Manafort's, was described in interviews by people familiar with the case.

"Rick Gates is going to change his plea to guilty,'' said a person with direct knowledge of the new developments, adding that the revised plea will be presented in federal court in Washington "within the next few days.''"
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sidd

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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #2789 on: February 19, 2018, 02:16:27 AM »
Re: "The fraud charge that Rick Gates will plead guilty to occurred during the 2016 campaign"

Where do you see this ? the latimes article makes no such asserion but perhaps there is another reference ?

sidd

AbruptSLR

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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #2790 on: February 19, 2018, 02:47:11 AM »
Re: "The fraud charge that Rick Gates will plead guilty to occurred during the 2016 campaign"

Where do you see this ? the latimes article makes no such asserion but perhaps there is another reference ?

sidd

Here is one source, and I have others, but perhaps you should wait until Gates provides his testimony in court so that you don't have to deal with uncertainty (or you could do your own research).

https://twitter.com/MalcolmNance?ref_src=twsrc%5Egoogle%7Ctwcamp%5Eserp%7Ctwgr%5Eauthor

Extract: "With Gates turned state evidence Manafort will plead soon. He will give up Trump, Kushner & Trump jr for a deal. Mueller’s Money laundering end game could come as fast in 60-90 days. Does not mean impeachment but will open up Trump’s tax returns."
“It is not the strongest or the most intelligent who will survive but those who can best manage change.”
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sidd

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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #2791 on: February 19, 2018, 04:34:05 AM »
I'm coming up empty on Gates guilty plea for charge(s) on offenses in 2016. We shall see.

sidd

SteveMDFP

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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #2792 on: February 19, 2018, 04:48:56 AM »
I'm coming up empty on Gates guilty plea for charge(s) on offenses in 2016. We shall see.

sidd

Odd, it took me about 2 minutes on Google.  The primary source seems to be the LA Times:

Former Trump aide Richard Gates to plead guilty; agrees to testify against Manafort, sources say
http://www.latimes.com/politics/la-na-pol-rick-gates-plea-deal-20180218-story.html

Quote
A former top aide to Donald Trump's presidential campaign will plead guilty to fraud-related charges within days — and has made clear to prosecutors that he would testify against Paul Manafort, the lawyer-lobbyist who once managed the campaign.

sidd

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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #2793 on: February 19, 2018, 05:01:55 AM »
No one reads what i type.

I repeat: Is there a reference to Gates pleading to guilt for offenses committed in 2016 ?

Now Bob weighs in:

http://thehill.com/homenews/sunday-talk-shows/374407-dem-senator-warns-mueller-against-issuing-russia-report-near-2018

sidd


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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #2794 on: February 19, 2018, 05:02:44 AM »
USA and Russia are just franchises.

The Commissioners are writing the script which weaves in and out of reality, but above all cloaks the actual shennanigans.
There is a principle which is a bar against all information, which cannot fail to keep a man in everlasting ignorance. That principle is contempt prior to investigation. - Herbert Spencer

AbruptSLR

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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #2795 on: February 19, 2018, 05:08:19 AM »
Bill Kristol believes that Manafort told Gates everything during 2016, so we will see soon enough what crimes he know about; which is a crime not to report to the FBI:

https://twitter.com/BillKristol/status/965365163326091264

Extract: "Rick Gates was Paul Manafort's right hand man. I suspect Manafort would have told him everything--including what Trump confided to Manafort privately. The Gates plea deal is more than Gates flipping on Manafort. Gates has things to tell Mueller about Trump. And he's telling them."

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AbruptSLR

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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #2796 on: February 19, 2018, 05:52:48 AM »
I'm coming up empty on Gates guilty plea for charge(s) on offenses in 2016. We shall see.

sidd

sidd,

Mueller is conducting his investigation like he would against any other organized crime case; and in such cases the counsel starts at flipping people from the bottom up.  So Mueller would only offer a plea deal to Gates if he has information on people above Manafort (as Manafort is already under indictment); which as least means someone like Eric, Don Jr., Jared or possible The Donald, as they were all involved in the 2016 campaign.  And as I stated in my last post if Gates had knowledge of wrong doing by such higher-ups and did not tell the FBI, then that is a crime whether he is charged with it, or not, per the terms of the secret plea deal.

Best,
ASLR
“It is not the strongest or the most intelligent who will survive but those who can best manage change.”
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Martin Gisser

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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #2797 on: February 19, 2018, 06:14:34 AM »
I'm coming up empty on Gates guilty plea for charge(s) on offenses in 2016. We shall see.

sidd
What we knew since long:
1) Unregistered agent of Ukraine (Viktor Yanukovych)
2) Money laundering and tax fraud.
Quote
In mid-August 2016, Trump fired Manafort following reports of possibly improper payments he had received from a pro-Russia political party aligned with his longtime client Viktor Yanukovych, who was Ukraine's president from 2010 to 2014.

Gates, however, remained with the Trump campaign through the election, serving as a liaison to the Republican National Committee. He also assisted Trump's inaugural committee.

Rob Dekker

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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #2798 on: February 19, 2018, 07:36:49 AM »
I have to agree with sidd on this.
There is no evidence that Gates or Manafort committed any crimes in 2016.

That is disregarding Manafort's connection via Deripaska directly to the Russian government.

But regardless, Gates flipping against Manafort would be quite a development.
Let us see what the next weeks bring us.
« Last Edit: February 19, 2018, 07:43:00 AM by Rob Dekker »
This is our planet. This is our time.
Let's not waste either.

Buddy

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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #2799 on: February 19, 2018, 02:16:34 PM »
Ivanka Trump, Jerrod Kushner, Don McGahn, and Sara Huckabee......ALL DON'T HAVE SECURITY CLEARANCE YET.

My guess is that Donnie will sprinkle some magic pixie dust and give them top security clearance EVEN THOUGH THE FBI WON'T.

Which brings up national security....and what light others will begin to see Traitor Don.  This weekend General McMaster had said that there was "incontrovertible evidence that Russia interfered in the 2016 election."  Donnie was NOT thrilled with that comment....and immediately went out to "deflect" on Twitter.

But at what point will people begin to "peel away" as the evidence becomes clearer and clearer that Trump was involved with the Russians during the campaign, during the transition, and during the early months of his term?  Right now....the only person in the administration I trust is Mattis..... and the folks in the FBI.....  But will a few of the others start to see just how serious things are?  That Donnie is STILL INVOLVED with Russia?

And when will more of the Republicans in Congress start to step out in STRONG support of Russian sanctions.........and against Traitor Don's lies?

Next few weeks could be telling......



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