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Neven

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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #2950 on: March 01, 2018, 11:55:44 PM »
It's a big club, and you ain't in it.
The enemy is within
Don't confuse me with him

E. Smith

sidd

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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #2951 on: March 02, 2018, 12:15:46 AM »
Apparently the giant Russian propaganda machine was more against fracking than for:

Over2015-2017:

 9000+ "russian" posts on facebook,twitter and instagram
 4000+ IRA linked accounts
 more than four percent of all IRA tweets were related to energy or environmental issues
 eight percent of IRA tweets that were related to the election

"The main focus of the Russian efforts centered on disruption of pipeline development or the advancement of climate change policies targeting fossil fuels."

O dear. A whole 9000 posts over two years. They need to hire better help. Some members of this forum might outdo them.

https://science.house.gov/sites/republicans.science.house.gov/files/documents/SST%20Staff%20Report%20-%20Russian%20Attempts%20to%20Influence%20U.S.%20Domestic%20Energy%20Markets%20by%20Exploiting%20Social%20Media%2003.01.18.pdf

sidd

AbruptSLR

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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #2952 on: March 02, 2018, 12:33:37 AM »
If Mueller is close to filing indictments against the Russians who stole the DNC emails, this likely means that he is squeezing in closer on the associated actions of the 2016 Trump Campaign:

Title: "Mueller eyes charges against Russians who stole, spread Democrats’ emails"

https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/2016-election/mueller-eyes-charges-against-russians-who-stole-spread-democrats-emails-n852291

Extract: "Special counsel Robert Mueller is assembling a case for criminal charges against Russians who carried out the hacking and leaking of private information designed to hurt Democrats in the 2016 election, multiple current and former government officials familiar with the matter tell NBC News.

Much like the indictment Mueller filed last month charging a different group of Russians in a social media trolling and illegal-ad-buying scheme, the possible new charges are expected to rely heavily on secret intelligence gathered by the CIA, the FBI, the National Security Agency (NSA) and the Department of Homeland Security (DHS), several of the officials say.

Mueller's consideration of charges accusing Russians in the hacking case has not been reported previously. Sources say he has long had sufficient evidence to make a case, but strategic issues could dictate the timing. Potential charges include violations of statutes on conspiracy, election law as well as the Computer Fraud and Abuse Act. One U.S. official briefed on the matter said the charges are not imminent, but other knowledgeable sources said they are expected in the next few weeks or months. It's also possible Mueller could opt not to move forward because of concerns about exposing intelligence or other reasons — or that he files the indictment under seal, so the public doesn't see it initially.

The sources say the possible new indictment — or more than one, if that's how Mueller's office decides to proceed — would delve into the details of, and the people behind, the Russian intelligence operation that used hackers to penetrate computer networks and steal emails of both the Democratic National Committee (DNC) and Clinton campaign chairman John Podesta."
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sidd

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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #2953 on: March 02, 2018, 01:47:27 AM »
Re: condoleeza

Right on cue: 200 million reasons to muzzle russia related inquiries. It's costing em real money.

"The move, disclosed in a company filing Wednesday, will cost ExxonMobil (XOM) about $200 million."

http://money.cnn.com/2018/03/01/news/companies/exxonmobil-russia-joint-venture/index.html

exit

DrTskoul

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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #2954 on: March 02, 2018, 01:48:55 AM »
Re: condoleeza

Right on cue: 200 million reasons to muzzle russia related inquiries. It's costing em real money.

"The move, disclosed in a company filing Wednesday, will cost ExxonMobil (XOM) about $200 million."

http://money.cnn.com/2018/03/01/news/companies/exxonmobil-russia-joint-venture/index.html

exit

Vs. $1B each drilled well up in Kara....do the math...

Neven

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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #2955 on: March 02, 2018, 10:26:02 AM »
I had promised to reply to this comment.

My point of the parallel discussions is that instead of focusing so obsessively on the minutiae of Russiagate as an attempt to remove Trump from office, it should be used much more broadly to push for things like:

- No foreign money in US politics, whatever the source, via whichever way.
- International treaties with Russia and many other countries on non-interference.
- No more US meddling or military invasions for the sake of resources, weapon sales and corporate access.

Couple of things on this, and I promise it will get very serious.

First of all, although these "parallel discussions" about foreign influence in US elections, and US meddling in other people's elections are interesting, I think they are outside the scope of this thread. Do you want to open a new thread on this, Neven ?

Sidd opened a new thread wrt US meddling in other countries, but my argument wasn't about discussing individual 'parallel discussions'. My point was that Russiagate could be put to much better use than just the effort of getting Trump impeached. You know, use it to talk about ending US meddling, signing non-interference treaties, putting a stop on foreign money in US politics, whatever the source, via whichever way. These are all good things, in principle, right?

Broadening the scope with regard to all the implications of Russiagate could also reduce the risks of potential negative consequences:

- Diverting from other issues.
- Being used to silence and smear the (real) left and alternative media.
- Being used by neocons to push for further escalation of the New Cold War.
- In the end making Trump stronger.

Quote
Secondly, regarding "International treaties with Russia and many other countries on non-interference.",

- Russia meddles in our elections, in criminal ways (see Mueller indictment) and then proposes to sign a treaty not to interfere. Are you kidding ?

- Indirectly, this is an admission by the Russian government that it DID meddle in our elections and it did so intentionally.

- As long as Russia keeps on denying the things it does, signing a treaty is useless.
For example, in 1994, during a time when we still trusted that Russia kept its word, Russia signed the Budapest Memorandum. The memorandum included security assurances against threats or use of force against the territorial integrity or political independence of Ukraine, Belarus and Kazakhstan.

And you want to make a deal with that kind of nation ?

So, what do you suggest then? Nuclear war? Because that's what your bloodthirsty desire for revenge inevitably will lead to. Don't you see that we can't afford tensions between super powers (or one super power and a power with nuclear weapons) if we want to solve AGW? We don't have time for this age-old BS. It's good for weapon sales and keeping both the American and Russian people docile with fear-mongering propaganda, but other than that it's a total waste of energy, resources, money and lives.

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Remember WWII guys. What if the US would not have invaded in Europe, because it had signed a "non-interference" agreement with Germany ?

What if the US had vetoed the Versailles Treaty that crushed the German economy and paved the way for Hitler's rise to power? What if the US had prevented its oligarchs to cause the Great Recession? Prevention is better than cure. There's still time and plenty of room to prevent this stupid New Cold War.

I wish I could show you what a real war is like, Rob. You'd act differently.
The enemy is within
Don't confuse me with him

E. Smith

AbruptSLR

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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #2956 on: March 02, 2018, 04:56:13 PM »
Now all Mueller needs to do is to get a subpoena to obtain Hicks' diary and his job could become much, much, easier:

Title: "WH Insider Claims Hope Hicks Secretly Kept a ‘Detailed Diary’ Of Interactions With Trump"

https://www.mediaite.com/online/wh-insider-claims-hope-hicks-secretly-kept-a-detailed-diary-of-interactions-with-trump/

Extract: "In a Daily Mail puff piece about White House communications director Hope Hicks and how she could be looking at a $10 million payday for a tell-all book about her time in the Trump administration, a White House insider told the publication that Hicks clandestinely kept a diary."
« Last Edit: March 02, 2018, 11:59:40 PM by AbruptSLR »
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Buddy

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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #2957 on: March 02, 2018, 07:34:25 PM »
Good thing they opened up this hotline....it's been getting pretty busy...

FOX (RT) News....."The Trump Channel.....where truth and journalism are dead."

AbruptSLR

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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #2958 on: March 02, 2018, 08:34:42 PM »
Is it more than a coincidence that Deripaska (who was coordinating with Manafort) cashed-out of aluminum, and that Carl Icahn dumped steel stock (and I note that Eric Prince deals in bauxite) just before Trump imposed his tariff on aluminum and steel imports?

Title: "Russian magnate Deripaska to quit role as Rusal president"

https://www.cnbc.com/2018/02/23/russian-magnate-deripaska-to-quit-role-as-rusal-president.html

Extract: "Russian billionaire Oleg Deripaska plans to step down as the president of aluminium giant Rusal, the company said in a statement on Friday."
“It is not the strongest or the most intelligent who will survive but those who can best manage change.”
― Leon C. Megginson

AbruptSLR

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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #2959 on: March 02, 2018, 08:40:48 PM »
First Trump's associates profit from his aluminum and steel tariff, and now Mueller is investigating whether Kushner's business ties influence Trump foreign policy.  We may eventually see indictments stemming from investigation of such matters:

Title: "Mueller team asking if Kushner foreign business ties influenced Trump policy"

https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/white-house/mueller-team-asking-if-kushner-foreign-business-ties-influenced-trump-n852681?cid=eml_nbn_20180302

Extract: "Federal investigators are scrutinizing whether any of Jared Kushner's business discussions with foreigners during the presidential transition later shaped White House policies in ways designed to either benefit or retaliate against those he spoke with, according to witnesses and other people familiar with the investigation."
“It is not the strongest or the most intelligent who will survive but those who can best manage change.”
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AbruptSLR

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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #2960 on: March 02, 2018, 08:45:27 PM »
I think that Mueller should investigate this matter as well:

Title: "SEC dropped inquiry a month after firm aided Kushner company"

https://apnews.com/dcea3eecab2b478aacd70321c6ce9a91

Extract: " The Securities and Exchange Commission late last year dropped its inquiry into a financial company that a month earlier had given White House adviser Jared Kushner’s family real estate firm a $180 million loan.

While there’s no evidence that Kushner or any other Trump administration official had a role in the agency’s decision to drop the inquiry into Apollo Global Management, the timing has once again raised potential conflict-of-interest questions about Kushner’s family business and his role as an adviser to his father-in-law, President Donald Trump."
“It is not the strongest or the most intelligent who will survive but those who can best manage change.”
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Martin Gisser

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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #2961 on: March 02, 2018, 10:05:17 PM »
So, what do you suggest then? Nuclear war? Because that's what your bloodthirsty desire for revenge inevitably will lead to. Don't you see that we can't afford tensions between super powers (or one super power and a power with nuclear weapons) if we want to solve AGW?
What do you suggest? Look away and turn the other cheek, it seems.
Seeking truth is not bloodthirst.
If truth is no longer a fundamental moral principle, then we can also forget about solving AGW, because that's also a very inconvenient truth.
Who lies and cheats should not be cooperated with.
Non-cooperation does not necessarily imply physical war.
If we let liars and cheaters and their associates and enablers prevail, then lying and cheating will not only poison social life but also the planetary life support system.
Then we are truely fucked.


My hope is that cleaning up the Russiagate mess will also help Americans see their own mess. (E.g. Kochtopus troll factories aka "think tanks", NRA, Faux News, ...)

Neven

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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #2962 on: March 02, 2018, 11:14:28 PM »
Martin, let me start with the best part of your reply:

My hope is that cleaning up the Russiagate mess will also help Americans see their own mess. (E.g. Kochtopus troll factories aka "think tanks", NRA, Faux News, ...)

Exactly! That's one of those aspects Russiagate needs to be broadened to, instead of focussing on impeaching Trump exclusively. There are US trolls who do the exact same thing as the foreign trolls, and the fact that they're US doesn't make it okay. The same for US oligarchic money poisoning politics.

The second aspect of Russiagate that should be stressed more, and I'm sure you'll agree with me here too, is putting a stop on foreign money in US politics, whatever the source, via whichever way. It doesn't matter whether it's Saudi Arabia, China, Israel, Russia or Liechtenstein.

The third aspect of that should broaden the scope of Russiagate is US meddling and interference in other countries. What's good for the goose must be good for the gander. Incessant US meddling plays a huge part in the origins of Russiagate.

These are all good things, in principle, right? So why is Russiagate about impeaching Trump exclusively?

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What do you suggest? Look away and turn the other cheek, it seems.

Yes, look away so that you may consider the beam that is in thine own eye.
 
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Seeking truth is not bloodthirst.

A desire for revenge is, which is what I said. How many people do you want to die for your truth?

Quote
If truth is no longer a fundamental moral principle, then we can also forget about solving AGW, because that's also a very inconvenient truth.

False analogy, except perhaps for the part where we are our own enemies.

The truth is that we need to solve AGW, or things will get a thousand times more ugly than this. The truth of Russiagate pales in comparison, it is totally insignificant. And as with so many of these things, chances are we will never hear the truth, especially given today's media atmosphere and the power of intelligence agencies.

If seeking this insignificant truth (in the larger picture) means furthering a New Cold War, you simply brush aside the truth that we need to solve AGW. Cooperation gives us a small chance of solving AGW, conflict gives us zero.

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Who lies and cheats should not be cooperated with.

Following that logic, no one should cooperate with the US.

Quote
Non-cooperation does not necessarily imply physical war.

Let's wait and see what the neocons think about that.

Quote
If we let liars and cheaters and their associates and enablers prevail, then lying and cheating will not only poison social life but also the planetary life support system.
Then we are truely fucked.

I agree, which is why you need to be consistent, Martin, and not just a partisan with his own truth. All the liars and cheaters and associates and enablers, not just those we perceive to be on Their side, but also those we perceive to be on Our side. All of them. We are truly fucked because you keep polarizing, which is exactly what They want you to do.

You can cry about seeking your truth all you want, but the simple matter of the fact is that we cannot afford a New Cold War if we want to solve AGW.

So, negotiate an international non-interference treaty with Russia (and the rest of the world) to start building a détente and get rid of nuclear weapons again, instead of pumping up capacity. For the sake of the American and Russian people who don't want war, even if propaganda on both sides lets them think that they do. That's the Russia part of Russiagate.

As for the Trump part of Russiagate:

- Keep investigating the corruption and financial malfeasance (with Russian and other foreign elements, like Sirael, Turkey and Saudi Arabia), because that's a winner.
- Start a discussion on troll farms in general, also the US ones, as well as a discussion on social media, their business model and their ability to censor without having to answer to anyone.
- Demand an end to all foreign money in US politics, even from 'friendly' nations.
- Demand an end to US meddling in other countries for resources, weapons sales and corporate access. Discuss the military budget that is way out of control.

All these aspects are part of a larger story, about the swamp that Trump is a part of, about oligarchic interests and concentrated wealth screwing over the American people (and the rest of the world), whether it's through the military-industrial complex, Big Pharma, Big Oil, the NRA, and so on. All of these things point to the same systemic problem.

If the focus stays on impeaching Trump via the collusion stuff, this opportunity will be lost. Again. Don't wait for the corporate media to broach this. Demand it.
The enemy is within
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E. Smith

Martin Gisser

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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #2963 on: March 02, 2018, 11:26:36 PM »
So why is Russiagate about impeaching Trump exclusively?
Who says that?
Impeachment might be a consequence. A very desireable one -- But it is not the premise.

Neven

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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #2964 on: March 02, 2018, 11:33:25 PM »
Who says that?
Impeachment might be a consequence. A very desireable one -- But it is not the premise.

Who says that? Mainstream media is pushing for ratings by keeping the frenzy going, with endless reporting on every single detail that comes out, every unconfirmed leak by anonymous sources. Do you see a lot of talk about the parallel discussions I say are related to/implied by Russiagate? No, it's about getting rid of Trump, and then some time in the future, maybe we'll talk about the other stuff. One thing at a time, even though all those things are connected and part of a larger story.
The enemy is within
Don't confuse me with him

E. Smith

Martin Gisser

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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #2965 on: March 02, 2018, 11:54:55 PM »
The third aspect of that should broaden the scope of Russiagate is US meddling and interference in other countries. What's good for the goose must be good for the gander. Incessant US meddling plays a huge part in the origins of Russiagate.
1) I'd love to see something comparable. (E.g. stuff from last century doesn't usually count.)
2) Even if you can show me something, it does not invalidate interest in Russiagate. (Else, start a thread "meddling anywhere by anyone".)

Martin Gisser

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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #2966 on: March 02, 2018, 11:59:51 PM »
Mainstream media is pushing for ratings by keeping the frenzy going,
The frenzy is at the other side of the line. It is the density (or say rate) of scandal that is happening. Rachel Maddow is breathless because of the sheer amount of stuff she should report - not because she needs better ratings (which are perfect).
« Last Edit: March 03, 2018, 12:22:49 AM by Martin Gisser »

AbruptSLR

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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #2967 on: March 03, 2018, 12:00:55 AM »
If Hope Hicks gets $10 million for a book deal on her time with Trump, she will probably spend all of it on legal fees, unless she cuts a plea deal with Mueller:

Title: "Trump ignored 'bright line' on discussing Russia with Hicks"

https://www.politico.com/story/2018/03/01/trump-hope-hicks-russia-433280

Extract: "President Donald Trump’s lawyers have urged him not to discuss details of the unfolding Russia investigation with anyone outside his legal team, warning of a conversational “bright line” that could put aides and associates in legal jeopardy, according to current and former Trump aides.

But Trump often ignores that legal advice in the presence of senior aides — including his departing confidante and White House communications director, Hope Hicks."
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sidd

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Martin Gisser

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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #2969 on: March 03, 2018, 12:18:45 AM »
The truth is that we need to solve AGW, or things will get a thousand times more ugly than this. The truth of Russiagate pales in comparison, it is totally insignificant.
I find it highly significant:
1) A truth/fact based political culture is a prerequisite to adequately deal with facts. Putin is actively undermining this.
2) Half the American oligarchs are contra AGW action. In Russia it's the whole mafia. That's one crucial difference between gander and goose. Imagine a global Trumputin mafia state of the fossil fools. (What was this Exxon-Rosneft deal? Why are we lucky that Trump couldn't rescind the old sanctions?)
« Last Edit: March 03, 2018, 12:27:58 AM by Martin Gisser »

TerryM

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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #2970 on: March 03, 2018, 02:51:11 AM »
When the US has walked away from the Paris Accord, and is trying to return to coal, it's difficult to accuse Russia, who is actually ahead of her obligations under the accord, of being the one who is dragging their feet.


Had you missed Putin's speech related to getting all Russian land transportation off gasoline and diesel?

Terry

SteveMDFP

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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #2971 on: March 03, 2018, 03:22:04 AM »

 . . .
Broadening the scope with regard to all the implications of Russiagate could also reduce the risks of potential negative consequences:

- Diverting from other issues.
- Being used to silence and smear the (real) left and alternative media.
- Being used by neocons to push for further escalation of the New Cold War.
- In the end making Trump stronger.


None of these are happening as a consequence of the Russiagate investigation.

Diverting from other issues?  No, sports, reality TV, and the Kardashians are a diversion from political issues.  Mueller's investigation has been a powerful influence on the American public to start paying serious attention to politics and policy.  It's been key to a broad-based public re-awakening and activism, unlike anything seen since Watergate.

Being used to silence the left and alternative media?  I haven't seen that at all.  The alt-right has been repeatedly discredited in their defense of Trump and Trumpism.  The alt-left that's been proclaiming the investigation as a "nothingburger" has also been (appropriately) shamed.  I'm sure Dore considers himself a victim of tides of public opinion, but I don't think he's exactly going hungry at home.  I suspect his viewership is still going up.  (Why, I can't fathom--he's the left's equivalent of Rush Limbaugh).

Being used by neocons to push for further escalation of the New Cold War?  Mueller's investigation isn't the primary cause of this chilling drift, Trump himself is.  Trump's the one who disavowed the last nuclear arms control agreement.  Trump's the one who, promptly upon assuming office, proclaimed the need to vastly expand and modernize America's nuclear arsenal, as well as its military budget.  Trump's the one who elected to keep US forces on Syrian territory, after the demise of ISIS.  Getting rid of Trump is the best way to start mending relations with Russia.

Making Trump stronger?  That's utterly absurd.  Pressure from the Mueller investigation has emptied out the White House of senior staff, and left the remaining figures unable to function.  Nobody knows who there has already turned into a cooperating witness, who might be wearing a wire.  They've been almost wholly incapable of getting desired legislation through Congress (with the sole, sad exception of the tax cut for the rich).  Nobody there seems to talk to another, and they can't coordinate their way out of a brown paper bag.

The Russiagate investigation has been a powerful boon to progressive causes.

sidd

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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #2972 on: March 03, 2018, 05:39:13 AM »
"Being used to silence the left and alternative media?  I haven't seen that at all. "

wsws.org is one example, they have detail on their web site.

And what do you think propornot is doing to leftist web sites ?

sidd

Rob Dekker

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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #2973 on: March 03, 2018, 08:37:59 AM »
I had promised to reply to this comment.

My point of the parallel discussions is that instead of focusing so obsessively on the minutiae of Russiagate as an attempt to remove Trump from office, it should be used much more broadly to push for things like:

- No foreign money in US politics, whatever the source, via whichever way.
- International treaties with Russia and many other countries on non-interference.
- No more US meddling or military invasions for the sake of resources, weapon sales and corporate access.

Couple of things on this, and I promise it will get very serious.

First of all, although these "parallel discussions" about foreign influence in US elections, and US meddling in other people's elections are interesting, I think they are outside the scope of this thread. Do you want to open a new thread on this, Neven ?

Sidd opened a new thread wrt US meddling in other countries,

He did, and there are now posts there that claim that "Gaddafi was a great man."
After the claims of admiration for Putin by Terry, I am hardly surprised.
Only waiting for claims of Assad being a great leader, which I'm sure will follow.

Neven, your ASIF political threads are overrun by dictator-lovers, and at this point I'm not sure if you even disagree.

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Quote
Secondly, regarding "International treaties with Russia and many other countries on non-interference.",

- Russia meddles in our elections, in criminal ways (see Mueller indictment) and then proposes to sign a treaty not to interfere. Are you kidding ?

- Indirectly, this is an admission by the Russian government that it DID meddle in our elections and it did so intentionally.

- As long as Russia keeps on denying the things it does, signing a treaty is useless.
For example, in 1994, during a time when we still trusted that Russia kept its word, Russia signed the Budapest Memorandum. The memorandum included security assurances against threats or use of force against the territorial integrity or political independence of Ukraine, Belarus and Kazakhstan.

And you want to make a deal with that kind of nation ?

So, what do you suggest then? Nuclear war? Because that's what your bloodthirsty desire for revenge inevitably will lead to. Don't you see that we can't afford tensions between super powers (or one super power and a power with nuclear weapons) if we want to solve AGW?

Huh ? I did not say anything about revenge, let alone "bloodthirsty desire for revenge".
I only pointed out that Russia signed the Budapest Memorandum, and then Putin bluntly violated it by invading Ukraine in 2014.

Ukraine gave up its nuclear weapons to secure their sovereignty. And they trusted Russia to keep their word.

Ask your Ukrainian friends how that went.

So your desire to sign "International treaties with Russia and many other countries on non-interference." is grossly naive.

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Remember WWII guys. What if the US would not have invaded in Europe, because it had signed a "non-interference" agreement with Germany ?

What if the US had vetoed the Versailles Treaty that crushed the German economy and paved the way for Hitler's rise to power?

Yes. Anything you can to put the blame on the US, right, Neven ?

The US learned from WWI.
That's why they had the Marshall plan after WWII.
And that's why the US build up a military force stronger than any other force on the planet.
And the world learned as well.
That's why we collaboratively instituted the UN, and NATO.
And that's why the EU was formed.

And as a result of all that collaborative effort we have no world war over the past 70 year.

Russia is trying to dismantle all of that, and you are helping them with your "look away so that you may consider the beam that is in thine own eye." policy, while Russia performed the first land-grab of ANY nation since WWII, and you seem to be OK with that, because .... OMG the next terrible (non-deadly) Cold War may be upon us.

Let me tell you that I'd rather have a Cold War with Russia than another High School shooting here in the US.
« Last Edit: March 03, 2018, 10:10:30 AM by Rob Dekker »
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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #2974 on: March 03, 2018, 10:51:42 AM »
Remember Prigozhin, indicted by Mueller ?

So he has this private army (about 2,500 men) called Wagner which he uses to rob and steal interests around the world, including Syria, where he wanted to get a 25% cut of oil revenues, a deal he cut with Assad. With the blessing of Putin.

Unfortunately, in between the oil refinery he wanted to take were the US Special Forces, which are there to fight ISIS and restore peace. But if attacked, they respond.

So how did that go for the Russians ?
https://www.polygraph.info/a/us-wagner-russia-syria-scores-killed/29044339.html

Quote
So three squadrons took a beating… The Yankees attacked… first they blasted the f*** out of us by artillery and then they took four helicopters up and pushed us in a f*** merry-go-round with heavy caliber machine guns….They were all shelling the holy f*** out of it
..
So, one squadron f**** lost 200 people…right away,” said one of three mercenary soldiers. “Another one lost 10 people… and I don’t know about the third squadron but it got torn up pretty badly, too.”
..
They beat our asses like we were little pieces of sh***... but our f*** government will go in reverse now and nobody will respond or anything and nobody will punish anyone for this... So these are our casualties…

Maybe the Russians got a bit used to shooting at Georgians and Ukrainians.

Don't mess with the US.
« Last Edit: March 03, 2018, 11:01:55 AM by Rob Dekker »
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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #2975 on: March 03, 2018, 11:10:08 AM »
There's not much use in replying, as everybody brushes past my central argument, as if it simply doesn't have any merit whatsoever. Now I'm frustrated, and I promised myself I wouldn't debate when I feel frustrated. So, signing off again.

If you guys represent the majority of Americans and Europeans, there is no hope whatsoever and human civilisation will just continue chasing its own tail, until it fails. Lots of intelligence on this forum, very little wisdom/sapience.

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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #2976 on: March 03, 2018, 11:32:58 AM »
There's not much use in replying, as everybody brushes past my central argument, as if it simply doesn't have any merit whatsoever. Now I'm frustrated, and I promised myself I wouldn't debate when I feel frustrated. So, signing off again.

Your "central argument" may have been obfuscated by your rhetoric to sign "International treaties with Russia and many other countries on non-interference." and your "look away so that you may consider the beam that is in thine own eye." policy, while behind your back Russia violated numerous treaties it signed in the past, invaded a neighboring country, annexed a portion of a neighboring country in the first land grab since WWII by any nation, shot down a civilian airliner, and lied about all of it.

I think the sanctions we have in place (including the sanctions that Trump doesn't want to enforce) are an extremely moderate response to such unprecedented aggression.
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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #2977 on: March 03, 2018, 01:01:49 PM »
Making Trump stronger?  That's utterly absurd.  Pressure from the Mueller investigation has emptied out the White House of senior staff, and left the remaining figures unable to function.
Looks like Neven has a point here. Look at his approval numbers. They are basically stable. The 'Merrican nutters have gained the critical mass (>33%) necessary (and sufficient) to turn the U.S.A. into a fascist state. We are lucky that Mueller bleeds out the White House, but there are still enough Kochtopus soldiers working the wrecking ball, e.g. at the EPA.

The mechanism, as absurd as it seems, is typical denial. The more inconvenient a truth the harder the denial. Ask Al Gore.

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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #2978 on: March 03, 2018, 01:12:29 PM »
Making Trump stronger?  That's utterly absurd.  Pressure from the Mueller investigation has emptied out the White House of senior staff, and left the remaining figures unable to function.
Looks like Neven has a point here. Look at his approval numbers. They are basically stable. The 'Merrican nutters have gained the critical mass (>33%) necessary (and sufficient) to turn the U.S.A. into a fascist state.

Of course! His supporters' perspective of this is that the establishment is trying to get rid of outsider Trump by any means. And as the GOP and Democratic Party clearly refuse to change anything that threatens the gravy train, a lot of fence-sitters may be swayed by this argument. If the collusion stuff proves to be unprovable, Trump already has a really powerful piece of propaganda that he can wield. If the corruption stuff takes too long to prove, or Mueller is taken off the case through orders from higher-up, a second term is almost guaranteed.

Russiagate could prove to be a huge strategic blunder, and maybe that was the idea all along, but I fervently hope it doesn't. More and more it looks like all the eggs are in this one basket.
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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #2979 on: March 03, 2018, 01:13:23 PM »
"Being used to silence the left and alternative media?  I haven't seen that at all. "

wsws.org is one example, they have detail on their web site.

And what do you think propornot is doing to leftist web sites ?

sidd

Are you serious?  Propornot is "silencing the left"?  For god's sake, we're talking about the internet.  All kinds of sites list other sites they accuse of one thing or another.  Nobody's been "silenced."  Criticized, accused, listed, sure.  So what?  Everybody criticizes everybody on the internet.  A complete and utter tempest in a teapot.

Do you think snopes is "silencing" anyone?

The wsws.org cites changes in Facebook and Google search algorithms.  Seriously?  This is "silencing the left"?

If a progressive movement is abjectly dependent on google search results, there's no hope for humanity.


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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #2980 on: March 03, 2018, 01:37:57 PM »
Neven wrote: "Russiagate could prove to be a huge strategic blunder,"
and if that happens to be so? Will he chase them in his 4th year, and make show of that? What damage that could do to the Democratic party (and damage not necessarily confined only to US democrats)?

< Did Russians swing the election to Trump? No. Did Corp Dems swing the election to Trump? Yes. >

« Last Edit: March 03, 2018, 01:43:24 PM by ivica »

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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #2981 on: March 03, 2018, 04:41:52 PM »
Making Trump stronger?  That's utterly absurd.  Pressure from the Mueller investigation has emptied out the White House of senior staff, and left the remaining figures unable to function.
Looks like Neven has a point here. Look at his approval numbers. They are basically stable. The 'Merrican nutters have gained the critical mass (>33%) necessary (and sufficient) to turn the U.S.A. into a fascist state. We are lucky that Mueller bleeds out the White House, but there are still enough Kochtopus soldiers working the wrecking ball, e.g. at the EPA.

The mechanism, as absurd as it seems, is typical denial. The more inconvenient a truth the harder the denial. Ask Al Gore.

Hitler may have had 30 percent of the population more or less committed, activated people.  Trump's 30% are *poll numbers.*  These aren't committed partisans, they're people who don't stay informed but maybe hate immigrants.  This 30% number is like the percentage of people who think the moon landing was faked.

Given a very good economy and stock market (at the moment) his support numbers are historically unbelievably low.

There *are* enough 30%ers to make the congressional republicans worry about losing a primary.  But a gateway to concentration camps?  Not plausible. 

Nor is it true that the Mueller investigation is somehow strengthening this squishy 30%.  The latest raft of guilty pleas and indictments have been followed by slipping support, and fewer prominent voices defending Trump. 

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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #2982 on: March 03, 2018, 06:03:08 PM »
There *are* enough 30%ers to make the congressional republicans worry about losing a primary.  But a gateway to concentration camps?  Not plausible. 

"We already have a concentration camp...it's called Tent City"  Sheriff Joe Arpaio

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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #2983 on: March 03, 2018, 06:11:17 PM »
There *are* enough 30%ers to make the congressional republicans worry about losing a primary.  But a gateway to concentration camps?  Not plausible. 

"We already have a concentration camp...it's called Tent City"  Sheriff Joe Arpaio



Fair point.  Undocumented immigrants are indeed suffering.  And this problem is directly from Trump and supported by his 30%.  Without that 30% of the population being behind this, it wouldn't be happening.

But to bring this point back into context, I don't see the Mueller investigation as contributing to their suffering.  I do see the investigation bringing down Trump's overall level of support, and thus  reigning in Trump's freedom to act in this realm.

As long as he's in the White House, he retains authority to issue executive orders to implement such suffering.  Impeachment after being criminally named is only prompt way to take power from him, to avoid their suffering and the suffering from war with Iran or nuclear war with N. Korea.

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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #2984 on: March 04, 2018, 04:59:34 PM »
The FBI my need to go into the Oval Office with guns drawn in order to get Trump out of office:

Title: "Trump on Chinese president abolishing term limits: 'Maybe we'll give that a shot someday'"

http://thehill.com/homenews/administration/376604-trump-on-chinese-president-abolishing-term-limits-maybe-well-give

Extract: "President Trump on Saturday praised a move by China's Communist Party to abolish presidential term limits, and suggested that maybe the United States would "give that a shot some day."

"He's now president for life. President for life. And he's great," Trump told Republican donors during a closed-door even in Florida. A recording of Trump's remarks was obtained by CNN.

"And look, he was able to do that," he added. "I think it's great. Maybe we'll give that a shot some day.""
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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #2985 on: March 04, 2018, 06:27:15 PM »
It is frustrating that this is so obvious to me and so ridiculous to everybody else. Trump is greed personified. Honor to this man is just something to take advantage of. Why would he not attempt a power grab?

  He has the backing of other dictator and the backing of the traitor republicans.  He has a significant segment of the population salivating for power and money.

Of course he will try to take over. He is already doing it. This is all part of the plan of the fossil fuel interests to power through climate change and come out of the other side better off. More powerful.

Will it cost a significant portion of the world population? That's the plan.

Or maybe there is no plan and this is just the natural decay of order into disorder.
I am an energy reservoir seemingly intent on lowering entropy for self preservation.

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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #2986 on: March 04, 2018, 09:46:23 PM »
There's not much use in replying, as everybody brushes past my central argument, as if it simply doesn't have any merit whatsoever. Now I'm frustrated, and I promised myself I wouldn't debate when I feel frustrated. So, signing off again.

Your "central argument" may have been obfuscated by your rhetoric to sign "International treaties with Russia and many other countries on non-interference." and your "look away so that you may consider the beam that is in thine own eye." policy, while behind your back Russia violated numerous treaties it signed in the past, invaded a neighboring country, annexed a portion of a neighboring country in the first land grab since WWII by any nation, shot down a civilian airliner, and lied about all of it.

I think the sanctions we have in place (including the sanctions that Trump doesn't want to enforce) are an extremely moderate response to such unprecedented aggression.

Your hate towards Russia is regrettable. Russia is not an enemy to the US by itself, Russia is not the USSR, it has no ambitions for any other social or economic system than capitalism. To not a small degree, Russia is made an enemy by hateful people like yourself, Rob. Russiagate has exposed a lot of such emotions among americans.

Several of your statements are not correct. There were other land grabs after WWII: Tibet was grabbed by China, and China also recently grabbed some islands in the Soutch China Sea.
Israel grabbed the Golan heights from Syria. and East Jerusalem in 1980, and is in the process of grabbing the West bank.
Also, I believe it's historically incorrect to say that Russia grabbed or annexed Crimea, as they reunified.

It's also not correct to state that Russia "shot down a civilian airliner".
It's a pity that you spread such unwarranted and hateful lies on this forum.
« Last Edit: March 04, 2018, 11:09:33 PM by Hefaistos »

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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #2987 on: March 04, 2018, 10:10:03 PM »
There *are* enough 30%ers to make the congressional republicans worry about losing a primary.  But a gateway to concentration camps?  Not plausible. 

"We already have a concentration camp...it's called Tent City"  Sheriff Joe Arpaio



Fair point.  Undocumented immigrants are indeed suffering.  And this problem is directly from Trump and supported by his 30%.  Without that 30% of the population being behind this, it wouldn't be happening.

But to bring this point back into context, I don't see the Mueller investigation as contributing to their suffering.  I do see the investigation bringing down Trump's overall level of support, and thus  reigning in Trump's freedom to act in this realm.

As long as he's in the White House, he retains authority to issue executive orders to implement such suffering.  Impeachment after being criminally named is only prompt way to take power from him, to avoid their suffering and the suffering from war with Iran or nuclear war with N. Korea.


I don't belief what i read. Doing something about that illegal immigration was something he promised during the election. That's how he won a democratic election. So why do you want to remove him from power. You don't like democracy ? Than move to an other country. Or do you want to bring in more Mexicans , from them you know they will vote for the democrats. That's what they call election fraude. And everybody that supported that fraude should be in jail.

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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #2988 on: March 04, 2018, 10:28:52 PM »

I don't belief what i read. Doing something about that illegal immigration was something he promised during the election. That's how he won a democratic election. So why do you want to remove him from power. You don't like democracy ? Than move to an other country. Or do you want to bring in more Mexicans , from them you know they will vote for the democrats. That's what they call election fraude. And everybody that supported that fraude should be in jail.

Your distaste for brown immigrants has long been apparent here.  Trump said many things in the campaign that most took with a large grain of salt--like universal health coverage for low cost, raising taxes on the wealthy so the middle class could get tax relief.  It would serve the interests of Democracy to impeach him for these campaign lies, though the Constitution probably doesn't support this action.

Democracy exists in the US within a Constitutional framework.  No President is free to create policies that violate statutes forbidding discrimination on the basis of national origin, among other forms of discrimination.  This includes immigration policies.

Immigrants voting for Democrats is a myth.  A non-citizen who registers to vote and then votes commits a crime that can directly lead to deportation.  Voting by non-citizens is a vanishingly rare occurrence.

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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #2989 on: March 04, 2018, 10:43:06 PM »

I don't belief what i read. Doing something about that illegal immigration was something he promised during the election. That's how he won a democratic election. So why do you want to remove him from power. You don't like democracy ? Than move to an other country. Or do you want to bring in more Mexicans , from them you know they will vote for the democrats. That's what they call election fraude. And everybody that supported that fraude should be in jail.

Your distaste for brown immigrants has long been apparent here.  Trump said many things in the campaign that most took with a large grain of salt--like universal health coverage for low cost, raising taxes on the wealthy so the middle class could get tax relief.  It would serve the interests of Democracy to impeach him for these campaign lies, though the Constitution probably doesn't support this action.

Democracy exists in the US within a Constitutional framework.  No President is free to create policies that violate statutes forbidding discrimination on the basis of national origin, among other forms of discrimination.  This includes immigration policies.

Immigrants voting for Democrats is a myth.  A non-citizen who registers to vote and then votes commits a crime that can directly lead to deportation.  Voting by non-citizens is a vanishingly rare occurrence.
(+1)

In over 40 years as a legal immigrant I never ran into any non-citizen who even expressed an interest in voting. Mexican friends were far more concerned with avoiding the government than they were with voting.
Terry

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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #2990 on: March 04, 2018, 10:45:12 PM »
Immigrants voting for Democrats is a myth.  A non-citizen who registers to vote and then votes commits a crime that can directly lead to deportation.  Voting by non-citizens is a vanishingly rare occurrence.

Indeed, or at least a myth that has suffered from erosion:

Quote
The Hispanic vote was bigger and more influential in the 2016 presidential election, just as predicted, but it also provided one surprise: more support for President-elect Donald Trump than expected.

Hispanics favored Democratic candidate Hillary Clinton 65% to 29%, a 36-point difference that helped her secure winning margins in states like Nevada and Colorado and kept her competitive late into the night in other key battleground states.

But that margin, based on exit polling conducted by Edison Research, was smaller than the 71%-27% split that President Obama won in 2012. And it was smaller than the 72%-21% her husband, former president Bill Clinton, won in 1996.

But I think this says more about Democrats than about immigrants or Trump.
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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #2991 on: March 04, 2018, 11:05:51 PM »
Immigrants voting for Democrats is a myth.  A non-citizen who registers to vote and then votes commits a crime that can directly lead to deportation.  Voting by non-citizens is a vanishingly rare occurrence.

Indeed, or at least a myth that has suffered from erosion:

Quote
The Hispanic vote was bigger and more influential in the 2016 presidential election, just as predicted, but it also provided one surprise: more support for President-elect Donald Trump than expected.

Hispanics favored Democratic candidate Hillary Clinton 65% to 29%, a 36-point difference that helped her secure winning margins in states like Nevada and Colorado and kept her competitive late into the night in other key battleground states.

But that margin, based on exit polling conducted by Edison Research, was smaller than the 71%-27% split that President Obama won in 2012. And it was smaller than the 72%-21% her husband, former president Bill Clinton, won in 1996.

But I think this says more about Democrats than about immigrants or Trump.

What erosion?  "Hispanic" does not mean non-citizen.  Immigrants are non-citizens, and non-citizens virtually never vote.  Vanishingly rare.

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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #2992 on: March 04, 2018, 11:21:10 PM »
What erosion?  "Hispanic" does not mean non-citizen.  Immigrants are non-citizens, and non-citizens virtually never vote.  Vanishingly rare.

You're right! I automatically assumed that all Hispanics were immigrants initially, but I'm sure there are many generations of US-born Hispanics. Sorry for being stupid.

Speaking of being stupid, I can't believe that I was unaware of this:



This reinforces my gut feeling that the Mueller investigation isn't independent or neutral. In fact, I think that it is used as leverage to get Trump (even) more in line with the swamp regulars. I know, it's a gut feeling, so it doesn't count.  ;)

Jimmy Dore has a video up discussing Cambridge Analytica, but as it isn't very good or informative (in the sense that there's nothing new in it), I won't bother you guys with it. Dore and his RT guest, however, do stress how insane it is to see how much attention has gone to cover and discuss Russiagate, while next to none is being reserved for Cambridge Analytica or the other electoral shenanigans with voting machines, etc. Which more or less echoes my argument that Russiagate could be used to touch upon a host of related problems that can be traced to the systemic problems western civilisation is suffering from.

Does anyone know if there has been any recent news concerning Mercer and Cambridge Analytica?
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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #2993 on: March 05, 2018, 12:49:37 AM »


Speaking of being stupid, I can't believe that I was unaware of this:

This reinforces my gut feeling that the Mueller investigation isn't independent or neutral. In fact, I think that it is used as leverage to get Trump (even) more in line with the swamp regulars. I know, it's a gut feeling, so it doesn't count.  ;)

Jimmy Dore has a video up discussing Cambridge Analytica . . .

I was following things very closely in the lead-up to the Iraq War.  It was pretty clear that the White House (esp. Cheney) basically cooked up intelligence via the CIA and NSA, and fed the bullshit to Congress, State, and the American people as gospel. 

The FBI doesn't do much outside the borders of the US, so Mueller as FBI head wouldn't have had direct knowledge of all the relevant intelligence.  I believe he was sincere in this testimony. 

I also believe Colin Powell was sincere in his UN presentation.  They were lied to, along with Congress.  I can't really fault any congresscritters for believing it and voting for war as a consequence.  Cheney should be behind bars, though.

As for Cambridge Analytica and the Mercers, the problem is that it was likely Americans who funded that work, and it probably was rather independent of the official campaign.  So I don't see that any laws were broken.  Which is an indictment of the status of campaign law.  We can thank the Supreme Court and Citizens United for that.

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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #2994 on: March 05, 2018, 06:08:53 AM »
Russia is not an enemy to the US by itself, Russia is not the USSR, it has no ambitions for any other social or economic system than capitalism.

That's not the issue, Hefaistos.
The problem is that Russia is very much making itself an enemy of the west.
Just some examples of nuclear threats alone :

Here, where they threatened Denmark with nuclear war :
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/russia-threatens-denmark-with-nuclear-weapons-if-it-tries-to-join-nato-defence-shield-10125529.html

Or here, where they threatened to nuke Yellowstone, which would cause total destruction of the US :
https://www.smh.com.au/world/russian-analyst-urges-nuclear-attack-on-yellowstone-national-park-and-san-andreas-fault-line-20150331-1mbl14.html
and similar report from the Russian president of the Academy of Geopolitical Problems (can you believe they actually have such an Academy?) :
http://www.businessinsider.com/russian-analyst-says-to-nuke-yellowstone-2015-4

Or here, where Putin himself shows a video of how they can nuke Florida without being intercepted :
https://www.cnn.com/2018/03/01/europe/putin-nuclear-missile-video-florida/index.html

Or when Russia moved nuclear capable missiles to Kaliningrad, scaring Poland big-time :
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/poland-highly-concerned-after-russia-moves-nuclear-capable-missiles-into-kaliningrad-a7352151.html

Quote
It's also not correct to state that Russia "shot down a civilian airliner".
It's a pity that you spread such unwarranted and hateful lies on this forum.

Right. I'm sure the crew that came with the Russian BUK from the 53rd BUK brigade in Kursk that shot down MH17 was on "vacation"  ;)
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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #2995 on: March 05, 2018, 08:24:58 AM »
Russia is not an enemy to the US by itself, Russia is not the USSR, it has no ambitions for any other social or economic system than capitalism.

That's not the issue, Hefaistos.
The problem is that Russia is very much making itself an enemy of the west.
Just some examples of nuclear threats alone :

Here, where they threatened Denmark with nuclear war :
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/russia-threatens-denmark-with-nuclear-weapons-if-it-tries-to-join-nato-defence-shield-10125529.html

Or here, where they threatened to nuke Yellowstone, which would cause total destruction of the US :
https://www.smh.com.au/world/russian-analyst-urges-nuclear-attack-on-yellowstone-national-park-and-san-andreas-fault-line-20150331-1mbl14.html
and similar report from the Russian president of the Academy of Geopolitical Problems (can you believe they actually have such an Academy?) :
http://www.businessinsider.com/russian-analyst-says-to-nuke-yellowstone-2015-4

Or here, where Putin himself shows a video of how they can nuke Florida without being intercepted :
https://www.cnn.com/2018/03/01/europe/putin-nuclear-missile-video-florida/index.html

Or when Russia moved nuclear capable missiles to Kaliningrad, scaring Poland big-time :
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/poland-highly-concerned-after-russia-moves-nuclear-capable-missiles-into-kaliningrad-a7352151.html

Quote
It's also not correct to state that Russia "shot down a civilian airliner".
It's a pity that you spread such unwarranted and hateful lies on this forum.

Right. I'm sure the crew that came with the Russian BUK from the 53rd BUK brigade in Kursk that shot down MH17 was on "vacation"  ;)

You tried to destroy Russia with your sanctions, and now they have weapons the US can't stop.

Alexander555

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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #2996 on: March 05, 2018, 08:36:46 AM »

I don't belief what i read. Doing something about that illegal immigration was something he promised during the election. That's how he won a democratic election. So why do you want to remove him from power. You don't like democracy ? Than move to an other country. Or do you want to bring in more Mexicans , from them you know they will vote for the democrats. That's what they call election fraude. And everybody that supported that fraude should be in jail.

Your distaste for brown immigrants has long been apparent here.  Trump said many things in the campaign that most took with a large grain of salt--like universal health coverage for low cost, raising taxes on the wealthy so the middle class could get tax relief.  It would serve the interests of Democracy to impeach him for these campaign lies, though the Constitution probably doesn't support this action.

Democracy exists in the US within a Constitutional framework.  No President is free to create policies that violate statutes forbidding discrimination on the basis of national origin, among other forms of discrimination.  This includes immigration policies.

Immigrants voting for Democrats is a myth.  A non-citizen who registers to vote and then votes commits a crime that can directly lead to deportation.  Voting by non-citizens is a vanishingly rare occurrence.


And your globalist spirit already destroyed to many countries. If you look at Venezuela, most hospitals have no employees left that know what to do. Because they all moved to the US. And how attractive is a country with no operational hospitals. Disaster after disaster, that's what your kind of people are creating on this planet. And you pay them al with your printed money, because thats what makes the diffrence. They can make more money in the US because they just have to print it. Soon you will be at war with every country on this planet.

Neven

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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #2997 on: March 05, 2018, 09:32:58 AM »
Enough with the US bashing. Most Americans don't want this either. It's a global, systemic problem, although it does seem that solving it needs to start within the American Empire.

I was following things very closely in the lead-up to the Iraq War.  It was pretty clear that the White House (esp. Cheney) basically cooked up intelligence via the CIA and NSA, and fed the bullshit to Congress, State, and the American people as gospel. 

The FBI doesn't do much outside the borders of the US, so Mueller as FBI head wouldn't have had direct knowledge of all the relevant intelligence.  I believe he was sincere in this testimony.
 

Hmmm, yeah. I'm also sincere, but if I say that all the Arctic sea ice is gone next week, I'm out of a job (as blogger) and will have a hard time getting hired in the future.

Quote
As for Cambridge Analytica and the Mercers, the problem is that it was likely Americans who funded that work, and it probably was rather independent of the official campaign.  So I don't see that any laws were broken.  Which is an indictment of the status of campaign law.  We can thank the Supreme Court and Citizens United for that.

Does that mean the media doesn't have to talk about it? Or that Americans don't demand that they talk about it? Isn't Russiagate the perfect entry point to get to the problem of Citizens United (ie money in politics in general)? Imagine this getting the level of attention that the indictment of the troll farm people got. Where is the resistance?
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Martin Gisser

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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #2998 on: March 05, 2018, 02:15:59 PM »


Speaking of being stupid, I can't believe that I was unaware of this:

This reinforces my gut feeling that the Mueller investigation isn't independent or neutral. In fact, I think that it is used as leverage to get Trump (even) more in line with the swamp regulars. I know, it's a gut feeling, so it doesn't count.  ;)

Jimmy Dore has a video up discussing Cambridge Analytica . . .

I was following things very closely in the lead-up to the Iraq War.  It was pretty clear that the White House (esp. Cheney) basically cooked up intelligence via the CIA and NSA, and fed the bullshit to Congress, State, and the American people as gospel. 

The FBI doesn't do much outside the borders of the US, so Mueller as FBI head wouldn't have had direct knowledge of all the relevant intelligence.  I believe he was sincere in this testimony. 

I also believe Colin Powell was sincere in his UN presentation.  They were lied to, along with Congress.
And they lied to themselves. Incl. lying to themselves that the rest of the world would buy the bullshit.

Plus, a sort of self-reinforcing psycho-logics ("we can't be that stupid", "we can't be that criminal", "I am a patriot", etc. etc. -- "therefore X can't be and it must be Y") which reminds of today's Trump supporters and Russiagate denialists/lukewarmers.

The whole thing was not a failure of the CIA etc. but a case of political abuse of the agencies. (Just a reminder to the "deep state" conspirational ideationists. Let's hope Trump won't get that far...)

I also followed things closely back then. One thing I vividly remember, but can't find on the net is an interview (CNN? ZDF?) with Germany's Joschka Fischer right after Powell's UN speech. Joschka could barely suppress laughter about the "mobile biological weapons laboratories"...

Maybe someone can dig that up? It was so paradigmatic. Here's a different snippet from back then:
« Last Edit: March 05, 2018, 02:38:38 PM by Martin Gisser »

Buddy

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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #2999 on: March 05, 2018, 03:35:23 PM »
Mueller's leaked 'hit list' may indicate he's treating Trump's team like a 'criminal enterprise'


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• A Grand Jury subpoena from special counsel Robert Mueller's team reportedly targets the majority of Donald Trump's senior campaign team, including the president.
• Axios, a news website, reported that Mueller will subpoena all communications since November 1, 2015, from nine leaders of Trump's campaign.
A former CIA agent said the subpoena indicates Mueller is treating Trump's team like a "criminal enterprise."

As I have said from the very beginning....RussiaGate is MUCH....MUCH...bigger than Watergate.  We are just NOW beginning to see a little bit more of "the iceberg" that is below the surface of the water.  We will see a LOT more in coming months.

Money laundering under "Vladimir and Donnie Inc" is an international business.  Who's visiting the White House this week?  Bibi.... a friend of Donnie's son-in-law....who just happens to be looking for money (still) for his "Devil's tower" (666 Building).

What Traitor Don has received....and continues to receive....from his work WITH Russia will come out in Mueller's investigation.   

http://www.businessinsider.com/muellers-hit-list-targets-trump-may-indicate-criminal-enterprise-2018-3
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