Support the Arctic Sea Ice Forum and Blog

Author Topic: The Russiagate conspiracy theory  (Read 1120379 times)

NevB

  • Frazil ice
  • Posts: 350
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 82
  • Likes Given: 571
Re: Russiagate
« Reply #3000 on: March 05, 2018, 03:50:56 PM »

I also believe Colin Powell was sincere in his UN presentation.


From Colin Powell's autobiography the impression I had was that the sate department were frustrated in their efforts to prevent the war by reporting that Iraq was in fact compliant. The Bush/Cheney team were determined to ignore and misrepresent the intelligence that they had. (The CIA had also failed to realise their prime source from Iraq (Chalibi) was not to be trusted. But that's getting even further away).

At this time though in Australia we had Andrew Wilkie resign from the Office of National Intelligence (Who's job it was to asses the intelligence gathered from all the other agencies and foreign sources being part of the US alliance he was privy to most of the secrets) in protest at the way the intelligence was being used by the Government. This got minimal media coverage and was swamped by the mass hysteria being pumped from Rupert's propaganda outlets.

The relevance of this is that at the time of Powell's presentation to the UN we had already been warned by Andrew Wilkie that we were being lied to, however most people seemed to be ignorant as most of the media didn't or wouldn't do their jobs.

Colin Powell spent his life serving the military with honour and when he was ordered by the President to present what evidence they had to the UN he chose to follow the order from his President. He then did the best he could despite probably knowing or suspecting what he was presenting was at least unverified if not outright lies.

Sorry for the long O/T
But the Iraq war to me is a tipping point where the US and those that followed them in the West lost so much credibility that these debates here that are being had now about the very integrity of western democracy would not have been taking place. 



     



EgalSust

  • New ice
  • Posts: 36
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 1
  • Likes Given: 1
Re: Russiagate
« Reply #3001 on: March 05, 2018, 04:11:48 PM »
Does anyone know if there has been any recent news concerning Mercer and Cambridge Analytica?

UK's Culture Media and Sport select committee questioned Cambridge Analytica CEO Alexander Nix recently. Quite surprisingly, Nix denied involvement in Brexit campaigning and downplayed the influence on the Trump campaign/US elections. Why this has missed most media attention is a good question indeed. But there is something, including a link to the parliament documentation in this article:

https://www.theregister.co.uk/2018/02/27/dcms_fakenews_cambridge_analytica/

Another question, didn't Nix earlier boast about Cambridge Analytica's big influence over Brexit & US elections?

Buddy

  • Young ice
  • Posts: 3379
  • Go DUCKS!!
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 49
  • Likes Given: 34
Re: Russiagate
« Reply #3002 on: March 05, 2018, 05:02:06 PM »
2nd Steele Memo: Russia ‘Blocked’ Mitt Romney as Sec of State

Quote
A new New Yorker profile of Trump-Russia dossier author Christopher Steele reports on a lesser-known memo the former MI-6 spy allegedly discussed with special counsel Robert Mueller’s investigators. According to the report, in late November 2016, Steele relayed information from his Russian sources that senior Kremlin officials had intervened to block Mitt Romney as President-elect Trump’s choice for secretary of State. Reporter Jane Mayer writes that Moscow had asked Trump to appoint someone who would be willing to lift sanctions related to Ukraine and cooperate with Russia’s involvement in Syria.

Hmmmmmm.  This could prove interesting.  I would expect some other news sources to corroborate this.  Those who think that this is "impossible"......likely don't understand just how "in debt" to Russia that Traitor Don is....and how much Donnie needed that freshly laundered $$$$.

And Michael Flynn was still with Traitor Don when the Secretary of State candidates were doing their dog and pony show with Donnie. ;D

https://www.thedailybeast.com/2nd-steele-memo-russia-blocked-mitt-romney-as-sec-of-state
« Last Edit: March 05, 2018, 05:09:00 PM by Buddy »
FOX (RT) News....."The Trump Channel.....where truth and journalism are dead."

TerryM

  • First-year ice
  • Posts: 6002
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 893
  • Likes Given: 5
Re: Russiagate
« Reply #3003 on: March 05, 2018, 05:29:53 PM »
I was unaware of Wilkie, but very aware of Hans Blix.


I'd followed Iraq carefully from the time of Bush the Elder's war crimes. My son in law was sent there twice, before he walked away after 14 years in the military, so I may have been following a little closer than most.
When Junior wanted to restart daddy's war it was rather evident that he, his cabinet, his intelligence services and his Secretary were not only lying, but that they weren't lying well.


Does anyone recall Peter Arnett's on the scene reports from Baghdad during Desert Storm? They were priceless. Google Peter Arnett Baby Milk if you're too young to remember. Powell insists that the facility is producing biological weapons and signs off on bombing it. Arnett shows up, there is white powder everywhere and he looks at it, says it looks like baby milk powder, sniffs it and says it smells like baby milk powder, then wets his finger and tastes the powder, exclaiming that it even tastes like baby milk powder.


The CIA wasn't incompetent, it was complicit. Same with the other three letter agencies. Rice and Powell didn't "make an error", they lied to the world.


Anyone who couldn't see through that cluster f--- should be cautious when expressing their views about the present situation. This is being foisted on the country by the same intelligence agencies.


They lied then, they are lying now. One of their heads is even spinning a grand jury this time around.


Terry

TerryM

  • First-year ice
  • Posts: 6002
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 893
  • Likes Given: 5
Re: Russiagate
« Reply #3004 on: March 05, 2018, 05:34:53 PM »
Does anyone know if there has been any recent news concerning Mercer and Cambridge Analytica?

UK's Culture Media and Sport select committee questioned Cambridge Analytica CEO Alexander Nix recently. Quite surprisingly, Nix denied involvement in Brexit campaigning and downplayed the influence on the Trump campaign/US elections. Why this has missed most media attention is a good question indeed. But there is something, including a link to the parliament documentation in this article:

https://www.theregister.co.uk/2018/02/27/dcms_fakenews_cambridge_analytica/

Another question, didn't Nix earlier boast about Cambridge Analytica's big influence over Brexit & US elections?
Nix doesn't ring a bell, but someone from the company certainly did brag of their influence in both the Brexit vote and Trump's Presidency.
Terry

Susan Anderson

  • Grease ice
  • Posts: 527
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 40
  • Likes Given: 279
Re: Russiagate
« Reply #3005 on: March 05, 2018, 05:35:03 PM »
Who says that?
Impeachment might be a consequence. A very desireable one -- But it is not the premise.

Who says that? Mainstream media is pushing for ratings by keeping the frenzy going, with endless reporting on every single detail that comes out, every unconfirmed leak by anonymous sources. Do you see a lot of talk about the parallel discussions I say are related to/implied by Russiagate? No, it's about getting rid of Trump, and then some time in the future, maybe we'll talk about the other stuff. One thing at a time, even though all those things are connected and part of a larger story.

No. That is wrong. Some people want impeachment, but reasonable people can see it's impractical. What we need is a full airing of the full truth, and much of it is about Trump and company's financial shenanigans. I'm not sure which "mainstream media" you're checking and/or ignoring, but most of the best news outlets post a variety of opinions as part of their responsibility to the whole population, not just any fringe. They are conflicted and attacked for this, but they persist. In any case, many of us feel Pence would be worse.

Also: as this is one of my hopefully rare appearances in these discussions, my point about being from and in the US is that those who are local get in-your-face news whenever they pay attention. It was not to accuse "foreigners" of being worse (or better) but to point out that what a person is most informed about is what engages them and what faces them in their homes. I adduced the comparison to another person's location in the hope that would make them reflect that each of us starts in our own center, and broadens out from there, getting snippets of information, depending both on exposure and preference/prejudice, about other locations.

None of this is either/or. In a democratically run society, hopefully everyone gets a voice. Right now, US republicans are in the business of silencing, jailing, criminalizing, and over-ruling the majority. They're getting a lot of help from Republican efforts to take over the state at every level: local was where they started, and judges and local authorities are now able to ignore the law and silence opposition at the meanest level, including heavy-duty vote cheating of many kinds. The trolling is one adjunct of that.

Here's a horror that gives you a picture of the use of power: https://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2018/03/05/the-nra-lobbyist-behind-floridas-pro-gun-policies Marion Hammer is in the business of legalizing murder and silencing opponents.

ivica

  • Nilas ice
  • Posts: 1475
  • Kelele
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 99
  • Likes Given: 0
Re: Russiagate
« Reply #3006 on: March 05, 2018, 11:50:55 PM »
Apparently the giant Russian propaganda machine was more against fracking than for:

Over2015-2017:

 9000+ "russian" posts on facebook,twitter and instagram
 4000+ IRA linked accounts
 more than four percent of all IRA tweets were related to energy or environmental issues
 eight percent of IRA tweets that were related to the election

"The main focus of the Russian efforts centered on disruption of pipeline development or the advancement of climate change policies targeting fossil fuels."

O dear. A whole 9000 posts over two years. They need to hire better help. Some members of this forum might outdo them.

https://science.house.gov/sites/republicans.science.house.gov/files/documents/SST%20Staff%20Report%20-%20Russian%20Attempts%20to%20Influence%20U.S.%20Domestic%20Energy%20Markets%20by%20Exploiting%20Social%20Media%2003.01.18.pdf

sidd
(my bolding)

People Who Pushed WMD Lies Now Pushing Russiagate Lies

(Redacted Tonight is a comedy show written and performed by Americans, in America covering American news.)

Rob Dekker

  • Nilas ice
  • Posts: 2386
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 120
  • Likes Given: 119
Re: Russiagate
« Reply #3007 on: March 06, 2018, 05:37:21 AM »
Apparently the giant Russian propaganda machine was more against fracking than for:

Over2015-2017:

 9000+ "russian" posts on facebook,twitter and instagram
 4000+ IRA linked accounts
 more than four percent of all IRA tweets were related to energy or environmental issues
 eight percent of IRA tweets that were related to the election

"The main focus of the Russian efforts centered on disruption of pipeline development or the advancement of climate change policies targeting fossil fuels."

O dear. A whole 9000 posts over two years. They need to hire better help. Some members of this forum might outdo them.

https://science.house.gov/sites/republicans.science.house.gov/files/documents/SST%20Staff%20Report%20-%20Russian%20Attempts%20to%20Influence%20U.S.%20Domestic%20Energy%20Markets%20by%20Exploiting%20Social%20Media%2003.01.18.pdf

sidd
(my bolding)

Thanks ivica.
I've been wanting respond to that report, but did not have the time.
There are two issues (of mis-information) there.
One is caused by sidd, and the other by the Republicans.

Let me address the first one first, with a question :
Russian Internet Research Agency had a budget of something like $1.2 million per month.
Over 2 years that is $28.8 million.
If they only managed to produce 9000 posts over that period, the average cost of 1 facebook/twitter post would have cost them $3,200.-.

So unless the Russians are extremely inefficient, there is something else going on here, and it has to do with sidd's number.

Can somebody spot the problem ?
« Last Edit: March 07, 2018, 05:14:51 AM by Rob Dekker »
This is our planet. This is our time.
Let's not waste either.

sidd

  • First-year ice
  • Posts: 6774
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 1047
  • Likes Given: 0
Re: Russiagate
« Reply #3008 on: March 06, 2018, 08:22:24 AM »
Taibbi on what Russiagate has become: a way to silence dissent.

"Putin loves you; therefore, you love Putin. The enemy re-tweets you, therefore, you're in league with the enemy. We're at war with them, therefore we're at war with you."

"If you don't think that the endgame to all of this lunacy is a world where every America-critical movement from Black Lives Matter to Our Revolution to the Green Party is ultimately swept up in the collusion narrative along with Donald Trump and his alt-right minions, you haven't been paying attention.

That's because #Russiagate, from the start, was framed as an indictment not just of one potentially traitorous Trump, but all alternative politics in general."

" By an extraordinary coincidence, virtually all the "anti-system" movements and candidates that so terrified the political establishment two years ago have since been identified as covert or overt Russian destabilization initiatives, puppeteered from afar ... "

"we've been told Putin was all or partly behind the lot of it: the Catalan independence movement, the Sanders campaign, Brexit, Jill Stein's Green Party run, Black Lives Matter, ... "

" ... reflexively identifying most anti-establishment sentiment as illegitimate, treasonous, and foreign in nature."

" ... the Russiagate narrative evolved to describe leftists, libertarians, and other assorted malcontents as additional "useful idiots" for Putin. This really began with the ill-fated "PropOrNot" web site ..."

" Think-tanks and pundits have increasingly followed suit, demanding that all good patriotic Americans renounce such "Putin-backed" protest movements.

A major target of this idiocy has been Sanders, who is already being pitched to the public as the Kremlin's next Manchurian Candidate."

"The Hamilton 68 "dashboard" almost exactly mirrors that Homeland Security Advisory program. It's a snappy-looking media-ready thingamadoodle with no real purpose beyond constantly reminding the public to be afraid of enemies in their midst. And it's run by many of the same ought-to-have-been-disgraced War on Terror yahoos who led us into the last mess.

Not only is the notorious Kristol of Weekly Standard and Project for a New American Century fame one of its leaders, but so is Michael Chertoff, ... That these people now are being upheld as heroes of liberalism is incredible. Only a few short years ago they were widely derided as the very dumbest people in the country, raving paranoiacs who humped every false lead from Niger to Ahmed Chalabi's hotel suite in order to justify invasions, torture, secret prisons and the establishment of a monstrous, intractable, and illegal surveillance regime.  "

Taibbi on fire. Read the whole thing:

https://www.rollingstone.com/politics/taibbi-russiagate-trump-putin-mueller-and-targeting-dissent-w517486

sidd

Hefaistos

  • Guest
Re: Russiagate
« Reply #3009 on: March 06, 2018, 09:31:15 AM »

Russian Internet Research Agency had a budget of something like $1.2 million per month.
Over 2 years that is $57.6 million.
If they only managed to produce 9000 posts over that period, the average cost of 1 facebook/twitter post would have cost them $6,400.-.

So unless the Russians are extremely inefficient, there is something else going on here, and it has to do with sidd's number.

Can somebody spot the problem ?

There were less than 10% of IRA's staff busy with the operations directed to the USA. About 80 out of 1000+ staff, according to Muellers indictment. Thus, the sum spent per month would be less than 1/10 of the numbers you have.

Martin Gisser

  • Guest
Re: Russiagate
« Reply #3010 on: March 06, 2018, 11:35:46 AM »
[...]
" Think-tanks and pundits have increasingly followed suit, demanding that all good patriotic Americans renounce such "Putin-backed" protest movements.

A major target of this idiocy has been Sanders, who is already being pitched to the public as the Kremlin's next Manchurian Candidate."

[...]
Taibbi on fire. Read the whole thing:

https://www.rollingstone.com/politics/taibbi-russiagate-trump-putin-mueller-and-targeting-dissent-w517486

sidd
Indeed his pants are burning. Too much ridiculous stuff there. The "manchurian candidate" thing is obvious projection and diversion.

There's a better author with a new long piece:
https://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2018/03/12/christopher-steele-the-man-behind-the-trump-dossier

I'll have a look at that first.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jane_Mayer

Martin Gisser

  • Guest
Re: Russiagate
« Reply #3011 on: March 06, 2018, 12:09:32 PM »
Apparently the giant Russian propaganda machine was more against fracking than for:

Over2015-2017:

 9000+ "russian" posts on facebook,twitter and instagram
 4000+ IRA linked accounts
 more than four percent of all IRA tweets were related to energy or environmental issues
 eight percent of IRA tweets that were related to the election

"The main focus of the Russian efforts centered on disruption of pipeline development or the advancement of climate change policies targeting fossil fuels."

O dear. A whole 9000 posts over two years. They need to hire better help. Some members of this forum might outdo them.

https://science.house.gov/sites/republicans.science.house.gov/files/documents/SST%20Staff%20Report%20-%20Russian%20Attempts%20to%20Influence%20U.S.%20Domestic%20Energy%20Markets%20by%20Exploiting%20Social%20Media%2003.01.18.pdf

sidd
(my bolding)

Can somebody spot the problem ?
First, it's a Republican document. You could as well quote the Nunes Memo. Oh, wait! It has a title: "Russian Attempts to Influence U.S. Domestic Energy Markets by Exploiting Social Media". Those 9000+ posts or tweets are "regarding U.S. energy policy or a current energy event on Twitter, Facebook, and Instagram." loc. cit.

'nuff time wasted on this.

--------------
Here's an article from Spanish paper El Pais on Russian social media warfare in Italy:

https://elpais.com/elpais/2018/03/01/inenglish/1519922107_909331.html


Quote
The conclusion is that Sputnik Italia has been very influential in radicalizing the public debate over the immigration crisis. Of all foreign media operating in Italy, Sputnik was the second-most influential, following the Italian version of The Huffington Post,
[...]

Sputnik was a key player in the strategy of Italian destabilization, but it was not the only one. There was another network of small websites focusing almost exclusively on anti-immigration messages such as “All the Immigrants’ Crimes,” “The Populist” or “Italy, my homeland.” An indication of activity by automated accounts, or bots, which are used to make content go viral, is that with twice as many members, the pro-immigration community still published less than half as many comments as those posted by anti-immigration users. Within the sample period, anti-immigrant profiles on Twitter created 68% of all comments on the topic.
[...]
my emph. of link going to the following article. It also tells about the other motivation behind "Russian meddling". It is not only about manipulating the target population, but also about manipulating the source's  population.

https://elpais.com/elpais/2017/11/20/inenglish/1511166287_468181.html
Quote
NATO intelligence reports show spike in disinformation about Catalonia
Head of strategic communication center says Russia is trying to underscore divisions in the West

[...]
A newer report on “robotrolling” shows that “Russian-language bots create roughly 70% of all Russian messages about NATO in the Baltic States and Poland” and that “overall, 60% of active Russian-language accounts seem to be automated.”

Since September, these same networks have shared messages about Catalonia, a fact that will be reflected in the center’s upcoming reports.

Sarts said that the practice of disseminating and viralizing Russian-language content about foreign crises is aimed at creating the sense that everybody has problems, that the West is full of hypocrisy, and that all governments act in similar ways.
[...]
My emph: Funny how this reminds me of this thread.
« Last Edit: March 06, 2018, 02:19:59 PM by Martin Gisser »

Martin Gisser

  • Guest
Re: Russiagate
« Reply #3012 on: March 06, 2018, 01:59:28 PM »
The Italian scene isn't that peripheral to Russiagate:
https://www.reuters.com/article/us-usa-election-trump-russia/from-russia-with-love-why-the-kremlin-backs-trump-idUSKCN0WQ1FA
Quote
MARCH 24, 2016 / 2:28 PM / 2 YEARS AGO
[...]
The mutual appreciation between Trump and Putin has invited comparisons to the Russian leader’s friendship with another billionaire-turned-politician, Italy’s Silvio Berlusconi, who outraged Ukrainians and irked EU leaders last year by visiting Russian-annexed Crimea with Putin. They toured a Crimean winery and drank a priceless 240-year-old bottle from its cellar.
I won't go into the parallels Trump-Berlusconi, esp. not the lecherous ones  8)

Hahaaahaha, more on my above observation:
Quote
Pro-Kremlin bloggers, corralled by a Putin supporter who used to represent the ruling party in parliament, are enthused by the prospect of agitating on behalf of Trump.

“Trump is the first member of the American elite in 20 years who compliments Russia. Trump will smash America as we know it, we’ve got nothing to lose,” Konstantin Rykov told his followers on social media.
Where have I heard that before?  :D ;D

This old Reuters article is linked from another historical piece of July 2016 - which could be directly pasted into a history book. It is worth revisiting because it tells the heart of the Russiagate thing... -- long before The Donald became president!  ::)

But I want to make some fun of sidd and Terrry (who likes to quote the Nuland thing ad nauseam), et al.
Quoth http://www.slate.com/articles/news_and_politics/cover_story/2016/07/vladimir_putin_has_a_plan_for_destroying_the_west_and_it_looks_a_lot_like.html
Quote
Foreign intelligence agencies often go fishing for information on American political campaigns. Chinese hackers tapped Mitt Romney’s servers in search of useful nuggets. But the Russians have made an art of publicizing the material they have filched to injure their adversaries. The locus classicus of this method was a recording of a blunt call between State Department official Toria Nuland and the American ambassador to Kiev, Geoffrey Pyatt. The Russians allegedly planted the recording on YouTube and then tweeted a link to it—and from there it became international news.
My emph. :)

The Slate piece is linked in Taibbi's piece quoted by sidd. Thanks for that reminder.

-----
P.S. / conclusion of all my posts above:

Summa summarum we have evidence of a telepathic connection between internal Russian propaganda memetics and the left leaning American thinker.

Keep in mind I'm talking half in jest...
Now back to my promise of reading Jane Mayer's latest piece in the New Yorker.
https://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2018/03/12/christopher-steele-the-man-behind-the-trump-dossier
« Last Edit: March 06, 2018, 02:14:16 PM by Martin Gisser »

Neven

  • Administrator
  • First-year ice
  • Posts: 9470
    • View Profile
    • Arctic Sea Ice Blog
  • Liked: 1333
  • Likes Given: 617
Re: Russiagate
« Reply #3013 on: March 06, 2018, 02:30:45 PM »
Martin, is there zero chance that Russiagate gets abused by certain parties (like, for instance, the neocon crowd) to smear all alternative politics in general? Not just Trump, but also progressives and social movements. Is there no risk whatsoever?

An I see you quoting NATO as a source. Where would NATO be without Russia? Could there be a risk that Russiagate gets abused to further push for a New Cold War, because neocons prefer this ideological atmosphere to push policies and corporate interests? Or do you think there is no risk of this whatsoever? Or don't you mind because, in fact, Russia must be subjugated/destroyed?
The enemy is within
Don't confuse me with him

E. Smith

Buddy

  • Young ice
  • Posts: 3379
  • Go DUCKS!!
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 49
  • Likes Given: 34
Re: Russiagate
« Reply #3014 on: March 06, 2018, 02:33:21 PM »
RE:  Susan's post above...

Quote
No. That is wrong. Some people want impeachment, but reasonable people can see it's impractical. What we need is a full airing of the full truth, and much of it is about Trump and company's financial shenanigans. I'm not sure which "mainstream media" you're checking and/or ignoring, but most of the best news outlets post a variety of opinions as part of their responsibility to the whole population, not just any fringe. They are conflicted and attacked for this, but they persist. In any case, many of us feel Pence would be worse.

I agree with Susan.  Impeachment IS NOT the focus of Mueller.  Mueller's focus is on (1) What happened, (2) Were any laws broken, (3) Who broke them, (4) How were the Russian's involved, (5) Did anyone work WITH the Russians, (6) Bring them to justice.  Pretty straight forward.

And I will be "comfortable" with whatever outcome Bob Mueller comes up with.  Where I DISAGREE with Susan....is what will happen to Traitor Don.  While she puts me in the "unreasonable camp"....time will tell who was RIGHT and who was WRONG (whether they were "reasonable" or not).  I WANT Trump impeached....because it has been clear since BEFORE the election....that many, if not MOST of those "dots" were going to connect.  And low and behold...they have indeed been connecting, as lie after lie from the Trump camp has been exposed.  And as more and more lies become exposed over coming months....the pressure on Republicans will become unrelenting.  That is my "thesis".  Time will either prove me right or wrong.

Quote
Also: as this is one of my hopefully rare appearances in these discussions, my point about being from and in the US is that those who are local get in-your-face news whenever they pay attention. It was not to accuse "foreigners" of being worse (or better) but to point out that what a person is most informed about is what engages them and what faces them in their homes. I adduced the comparison to another person's location in the hope that would make them reflect that each of us starts in our own center, and broadens out from there, getting snippets of information, depending both on exposure and preference/prejudice, about other locations.

It amazes me how much people talk about "the main stream media"....and some of those people DON'T WATCH MUCH OR ANY MAIN STREAM MEDIA.  Amazes me.  Again....this is why I FORCE myself to watch some FOX News.  How can I possibly....and reasonably.... slam FOX if I don't watch some of it?

By the way....I'll be starting a thread today:  "RussiaGate:  Media coverage..... Who is lying and who is doing a good job.  The focus will be to highlight those that do a good job in covering and communicating FACTS....and to highlight those that are lying or blatantly biased.  In other words....WHO IS DOING GOOD JOURNALISM AND WHO ISN'T.  And posting video clips/articles to show those.   After-all.....journalism is a search for the TRUTH.

I laugh (internally) regarding much of the banter on this site from foreigners talking about US politics.  If someone doesn't know the history of politics in the US over the last 20 - 40 years....how can they reasonably understand what has been going on NOW.  I don't think they can...and I believe that many times they expose that weakness. 

Quote
None of this is either/or. In a democratically run society, hopefully everyone gets a voice. Right now, US republicans are in the business of silencing, jailing, criminalizing, and over-ruling the majority. They're getting a lot of help from Republican efforts to take over the state at every level: local was where they started, and judges and local authorities are now able to ignore the law and silence opposition at the meanest level, including heavy-duty vote cheating of many kinds. The trolling is one adjunct of that.

RIGHT ON TARGET.   And the Republicans have been doing this for the last 20 years.  It is amazing that it took the Democrat's 20 years to wake up. 
FOX (RT) News....."The Trump Channel.....where truth and journalism are dead."

Buddy

  • Young ice
  • Posts: 3379
  • Go DUCKS!!
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 49
  • Likes Given: 34
Re: Russiagate
« Reply #3015 on: March 06, 2018, 02:42:42 PM »
ivica

Really.  Posting a video clip from RT?  Why not just post a press release from the Kremlin....or a clip from Sean Hannity?

For those that still don't know....RT is funded BY THE KREMLIN.
FOX (RT) News....."The Trump Channel.....where truth and journalism are dead."

ivica

  • Nilas ice
  • Posts: 1475
  • Kelele
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 99
  • Likes Given: 0
Re: Russiagate
« Reply #3016 on: March 06, 2018, 03:08:23 PM »
ivica

Really.  Posting a video clip from RT?  Why not just post a press release from the Kremlin....or a clip from Sean Hannity?

For those that still don't know....RT is funded BY THE KREMLIN.

Please, try to notice the sentence beyond the clip, thank you ;)

Apparently the giant Russian propaganda machine was more against fracking than for:

Over2015-2017:

 9000+ "russian" posts on facebook,twitter and instagram
 4000+ IRA linked accounts
 more than four percent of all IRA tweets were related to energy or environmental issues
 eight percent of IRA tweets that were related to the election

"The main focus of the Russian efforts centered on disruption of pipeline development or the advancement of climate change policies targeting fossil fuels."

O dear. A whole 9000 posts over two years. They need to hire better help. Some members of this forum might outdo them.

https://science.house.gov/sites/republicans.science.house.gov/files/documents/SST%20Staff%20Report%20-%20Russian%20Attempts%20to%20Influence%20U.S.%20Domestic%20Energy%20Markets%20by%20Exploiting%20Social%20Media%2003.01.18.pdf

sidd
(my bolding)

People Who Pushed WMD Lies Now Pushing Russiagate Lies

(Redacted Tonight is a comedy show written and performed by Americans, in America covering American news.)

Alexander555

  • Young ice
  • Posts: 2503
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 185
  • Likes Given: 49
Re: Russiagate
« Reply #3017 on: March 06, 2018, 03:16:25 PM »
ivica

Really.  Posting a video clip from RT?  Why not just post a press release from the Kremlin....or a clip from Sean Hannity?

For those that still don't know....RT is funded BY THE KREMLIN.


What's the difference, your entire economy is funded by the central bank.

Martin Gisser

  • Guest
Re: Russiagate
« Reply #3018 on: March 06, 2018, 03:18:07 PM »
Martin, is there zero chance that Russiagate gets abused by certain parties (like, for instance, the neocon crowd) to smear all alternative politics in general? Not just Trump, but also progressives and social movements. Is there no risk whatsoever?
There is a chance of course. Incl. the alt-left smearing the left, like Jimmy Dore. And there's politicisation of supposed politicisation, e.g. Matt Taibbi.

But I don't f-ing care, because this kindergartenisation always happens around unconvenient truths. I'd like to stick to facts or to serious theory. And I don't avoid that just because there's a danger of upsetting the clown crowd.

Quote
Could there be a risk that Russiagate gets abused to further push for a New Cold War, because neocons prefer this ideological atmosphere to push policies and corporate interests? Or do you think there is no risk of this whatsoever? Or don't you mind because, in fact, Russia must be subjugated/destroyed?
The Cold War is long here. The rest I find a bit ridiculous (tautological) to argue. I'm not going to look for a Russian propaganda parallel to your last sentence. :)
« Last Edit: March 06, 2018, 03:55:49 PM by Martin Gisser »

Buddy

  • Young ice
  • Posts: 3379
  • Go DUCKS!!
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 49
  • Likes Given: 34
Re: Russiagate
« Reply #3019 on: March 06, 2018, 03:18:34 PM »
Quote
What's the difference, your entire economy is funded by the central bank.

I haven't watched any Central Bank tv lately.....have you?  Get real.
FOX (RT) News....."The Trump Channel.....where truth and journalism are dead."

Martin Gisser

  • Guest
Re: Russiagate
« Reply #3020 on: March 06, 2018, 03:26:05 PM »
Please, try to notice the sentence beyond the clip, thank you ;)
That sentence is incomplete  :D ;D
What's missing: "paid by the Kremlin".

A Freudian omission? Thanks for providing more fodder for my telepathy theory: Those Kremlin paid american Americans are sold as American heroes to the Russian audience. And this sentiment somehow diffuses back to the West.
« Last Edit: March 06, 2018, 03:53:59 PM by Martin Gisser »

Neven

  • Administrator
  • First-year ice
  • Posts: 9470
    • View Profile
    • Arctic Sea Ice Blog
  • Liked: 1333
  • Likes Given: 617
Re: Russiagate
« Reply #3021 on: March 06, 2018, 03:59:59 PM »
But I don't f-ing care, because this kindergartenisation always happens around unconvenient truths. I'd like to stick to facts or to serious theory. And I don't avoid that just because there's a danger of upsetting the clown crowd.

When you say 'facts', you mean facts like 'Saddam has WMDs'? Does that also mean that everything that could have come out of the Kremlin, is ipso facto untrue?

The danger with this kind of thinking is that you set yourself up for some serious epistemic closure.

Quote
The Cold War is long here. The rest I find a bit ridiculous to argue. I'm not going to look for a Russian propaganda parallel to your last sentence. :)

Okay, so you're with the neocons on this one? Because that's what it boils down to. The NATO says it, so it must be a fact, ergo anyone who disagrees, is with the clown crowd. An impenetrable fortress in that magnificent brain of yours. Congratulations.  ;D

Can't we be both against a New Cold War and Putin? Against Trump and Clinton? Against the GOP and Corporate Democrats? Is everything in life a black-and-white choice? Either you're with us or you're with the terrorists?

Maybe this is also something that is being pushed by Vladbots to sow division. Maybe this benefits something beyond Russia or the US, something like, I don't know, concentrated wealth that has the luxury not having to deal with black-and-white choices and petty stuff like nationalism and political tribalism?
The enemy is within
Don't confuse me with him

E. Smith

ivica

  • Nilas ice
  • Posts: 1475
  • Kelele
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 99
  • Likes Given: 0
Re: Russiagate
« Reply #3022 on: March 06, 2018, 04:06:04 PM »
Please, try to notice the sentence beyond the clip, thank you ;)
That sentence is incomplete  :D ;D
What's missing: "paid by the Kremlin".

<snip>

Jimmy Dore said something like that to him too (at 00:38 of video below), didn't help ;)



Buddy

  • Young ice
  • Posts: 3379
  • Go DUCKS!!
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 49
  • Likes Given: 34
Re: Russiagate
« Reply #3023 on: March 06, 2018, 04:59:18 PM »
By the way...."that British data company" (Cambridge Analytica) is part owned by American billionaire amd Republican donor Robert Mercer.  The same Robert Mercer who was behind (and is still behind in Texas) Ted Cruz as well as Traitor Donnie.

Most of Cambridge's work is done in the US (offices in London, Wash DC, and NY I believe).  So, to call it "that British company"....is more than a little misleading.  They did work on the "pro Brexit" side in Britain.

Mercer is the financial backer....and the company was started in 2013....and all of their work in the US has been done for REPUBLICAN CANDIDATES.  Probably just a coincidence.  ;)

https://www.vox.com/policy-and-politics/2017/10/16/15657512/mueller-fbi-cambridge-analytica-trump-russia
FOX (RT) News....."The Trump Channel.....where truth and journalism are dead."

Neven

  • Administrator
  • First-year ice
  • Posts: 9470
    • View Profile
    • Arctic Sea Ice Blog
  • Liked: 1333
  • Likes Given: 617
Re: Russiagate
« Reply #3024 on: March 06, 2018, 05:27:05 PM »
By the way...."that British data company" (Cambridge Analytica) is part owned by American billionaire amd Republican donor Robert Mercer.  The same Robert Mercer who was behind (and is still behind in Texas) Ted Cruz as well as Traitor Donnie.

Most of Cambridge's work is done in the US (offices in London, Wash DC, and NY I believe).  So, to call it "that British company"....is more than a little misleading.  They did work on the "pro Brexit" side in Britain.

Mercer is the financial backer....and the company was started in 2013....and all of their work in the US has been done for REPUBLICAN CANDIDATES.  Probably just a coincidence.  ;)

https://www.vox.com/policy-and-politics/2017/10/16/15657512/mueller-fbi-cambridge-analytica-trump-russia

So, why isn't there more talk about this? Especially if you see how much attention the 13 troll farm indictments received. I don't get it.

Which, of course, is another of those parallel discussions related to Russiagate that seem to be off-limits.

Quote
Where I DISAGREE with Susan....is what will happen to Traitor Don.  While she puts me in the "unreasonable camp"....time will tell who was RIGHT and who was WRONG (whether they were "reasonable" or not).  I WANT Trump impeached....because it has been clear since BEFORE the election....that many, if not MOST of those "dots" were going to connect.  And low and behold...they have indeed been connecting, as lie after lie from the Trump camp has been exposed.  And as more and more lies become exposed over coming months....the pressure on Republicans will become unrelenting.  That is my "thesis".  Time will either prove me right or wrong.

Most of the mainstream media seems to agree with you, or at least thinks it's good for ratings. What if you're wrong? What will Trump's position be, if you're wrong? I mean, you could even be right, but Mueller is simply whistled back by TPTB. There was a lot more integrity and less greed during Watergate, so the analogy could easily break down there. The media was also a lot more independent (but that's for the new thread you opened).
The enemy is within
Don't confuse me with him

E. Smith

Neven

  • Administrator
  • First-year ice
  • Posts: 9470
    • View Profile
    • Arctic Sea Ice Blog
  • Liked: 1333
  • Likes Given: 617
Re: Russiagate
« Reply #3025 on: March 06, 2018, 05:51:09 PM »
Another parallel discussion: Russiagate was also about Russians trying to hack into voting machines. This vulnerability has been exploited ever since the damn things were introduced to replace paper ballots (I watched a lot of documentaries on this stuff 10 years ago, when an acquaintance of mine in the Netherlands successfully led a campaign to get rid of voting machines).

Everyone is in a tizzy about how the 2018 midterm elections might be manipulated. Okay, so here's part of the solution, presented by Rep. Tulsi Gabbard who proposes the Securing America's Elections Act:



And for the fans:

The enemy is within
Don't confuse me with him

E. Smith

Buddy

  • Young ice
  • Posts: 3379
  • Go DUCKS!!
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 49
  • Likes Given: 34
Re: Russiagate
« Reply #3026 on: March 06, 2018, 06:21:20 PM »
Neven:

Quote
Most of the mainstream media seems to agree with you, or at least thinks it's good for ratings.

Remember...you don't watch MSM.  One might ask....how do you know if you don't watch?  The MSM is "all over the map" on that one.  It actually HASN'T been talked about very much....and again what little talk there is about WHETHER he will be impeached....is all over the map.

Quote
What if you're wrong? What will Trump's position be, if you're wrong? I mean, you could even be right, but Mueller is simply whistled back by TPTB.

Well...it certainly wouldn't be the first time I have been wrong.  Whether I am right or wrong regarding IF Trump will be impeached.... is NOT the focus.  The focus is on DETERMINING WHAT HAPPENED DURING THE ELECTION PROCESS.  (1) was there Russian interference (2) was the Trump campaign helping the Russians in any way (3) what Russians....just some 300 pound Russian in Haifastos' basement....or Russians in the Kremlin or working with the Kremlin (4) what Americans...if any....were involved in any election process irregularities (like NRA or RNC taking Russian money to help Trump).

At the end of this....I can ALMOST assure you, that there will be a NON PARTISAN COMMISSION that will look at the whole election process....INCLUDING FUNDING SOURCES and LAWS (think Citizens United...and a LOT of other election issues.....like showing tax returns for the last 5 - 10 years....etc).

Quote
There was a lot more integrity and less greed during Watergate, so the analogy could easily break down there. The media was also a lot more independent (but that's for the new thread you opened).

I DO think there was certainly more "integrity".  People willing to cross party lines....and folks looked a lot less "tribal" (at least in the history I have read....and the video I have watched).  But there was still a lot of people who WEREN'T of high integrity.  I think it is due to the advent of cable television news....and SPECIFICALLY of FOX News, and then the "answer to FOX) via MSNBC.

News is STILL INDEPENDENT on stations like ABC, CBS, and NBC.  I'm an ABC junky.  Used to LOVE watching Diane Sawyer...now replaced by David Muir (but network news is pretty superficial....and they don't have the airtime to be able to DIG into issues too deeply).

And those of you saying...."oh...sure that liberal ABC".  Diane Sawyer worked in the Nixon Administration, and she helped to write his memoirs.  ;)

The "right" has done a good job over the last 20 years or so (and maybe before that) of "selling the idea of the liberal news media".  As a FISCAL CONSERVATIVE....I have never felt that way.

But again....the Republicans have become the "lobbyist party".  They aren't fiscal conservatives.     
FOX (RT) News....."The Trump Channel.....where truth and journalism are dead."

Buddy

  • Young ice
  • Posts: 3379
  • Go DUCKS!!
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 49
  • Likes Given: 34
Re: Russiagate
« Reply #3027 on: March 06, 2018, 07:21:08 PM »
The NRA tried to dodge questions about its ties to Russia, but Congress isn’t done yet

https://thinkprogress.org/wyden-wants-answers-nra-russia-5fd99018417b/

Senator Ron Wyden (Oregon) is like a PIT BULL WITH THE NOSE OF A BLOOD HOUND.  If the NRA thinks he is going to drop this...they are sorely mistaken.



FOX (RT) News....."The Trump Channel.....where truth and journalism are dead."

sidd

  • First-year ice
  • Posts: 6774
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 1047
  • Likes Given: 0
Re: Russiagate
« Reply #3028 on: March 06, 2018, 09:41:53 PM »
Wheeler comments on Mayer's latest:

"she adds just two new bits of news, and along the way muddles the timeline as badly as all the Steele boosters who have gone before her."

https://www.emptywheel.net/2018/03/05/15-months-and-15000-words-later-boosters-still-obscure-the-timeline-on-the-steele-dossier/

sidd

Neven

  • Administrator
  • First-year ice
  • Posts: 9470
    • View Profile
    • Arctic Sea Ice Blog
  • Liked: 1333
  • Likes Given: 617
Re: Russiagate
« Reply #3029 on: March 06, 2018, 10:04:07 PM »
I must admit I read only half of the Mayer article (too long), but not because I didn't find it interesting. To be clear, Marcy Wheeler is pretty sure about Russiagate, as she has iterated time and again during the excellent interviews on the Real News Network, but she's no fan of the Steele dossier.

It'd be cool if Mayer would respond to Wheeler.
The enemy is within
Don't confuse me with him

E. Smith

Buddy

  • Young ice
  • Posts: 3379
  • Go DUCKS!!
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 49
  • Likes Given: 34
Re: Russiagate
« Reply #3030 on: March 06, 2018, 11:12:10 PM »
RussiaGate is quickly turning into a game of "musical chairs."  For those who have not played musical chairs....it is a game where everyone is walking around in a circle of chairs, and there is one less chair than there are people.  When the music stops...everyone trys to sit down in a chair.  Each round....one person is "left out" without a chair....and then the next round starts with one less chair.

Well....that is what is quickly happening in the Mueller investigation.  And we're running out of chairs to sit down in.  If someone is lucky enough to be ASKED TO FLIP by Mueller....then they get to sit down.  But at some point.....there will be no chairs, and those left standing....will be SOL (shit out of luck).

Hicks has likely already flipped.  Will Keith Schiller flip....Donnies old security guy who is now getting a $17K per month "consulting fee" FROM THE REPUBLICAN NATIONAL COMMITTEE.

Donnie is getting squeezed into a corner.....and the people around him are running out of chairs.

There are HUGE THINGS still on the horizon....so this is going to get a LOT crazier than it is now.  Just imagine....  ;)
FOX (RT) News....."The Trump Channel.....where truth and journalism are dead."

Susan Anderson

  • Grease ice
  • Posts: 527
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 40
  • Likes Given: 279
Re: Russiagate
« Reply #3031 on: March 07, 2018, 05:08:59 AM »
Neven: Jane Mayer is the author of Dark Money and has been producing groundbreaking reporting for years. She works for, imnsho, the best news organization in the United States (there are others, but The New Yorker hires the best and gives them full support to do their jobs, which she has done at some personal risk. There's nobody like her. If people want to defeat dark money, she's a leader, not a follower.

We would not know what we know about the Koch organization if she hadn't exposed them.

I doubt she will be spending time responding to whatever it is people (particularly on the internet) think she should respond to. She will, instead, be continuing her ground-breaking reporting.

When somebody is the best there is, it is not their job to defend themselves but to continue to excel. Kind of like what you have done pulling together expertise on the Arctic.

She is not a politician. She is a truth-teller and a premier investigator, and it has taken courage and intelligence to do what she has done, on multiple fronts.

Rob Dekker

  • Nilas ice
  • Posts: 2386
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 120
  • Likes Given: 119
Re: Russiagate
« Reply #3032 on: March 07, 2018, 05:24:21 AM »
Can somebody spot the problem ?
First, it's a Republican document. You could as well quote the Nunes Memo. Oh, wait! It has a title: "Russian Attempts to Influence U.S. Domestic Energy Markets by Exploiting Social Media". Those 9000+ posts or tweets are "regarding U.S. energy policy or a current energy event on Twitter, Facebook, and Instagram." loc. cit.

Bingo !
Those 9000 posts that sidd was talking about is JUST about U.S. energy policy.

Which not only shows that sidd is spreading mis-information again, but it reveals something more serious :

The Republican report here uses Russiagate to further their fossil fuel agenda.
They blame "Russian Agents" for stalling oil projects like the Keystone XL pipeline.
Stuff like this from the Republican report :

Quote
The Russian content targeting pipelines was not limited to the DAPL. Russian posts also
targeted several other pipelines, including Sabal Trail, Keystone XL, Colonial, Bayou Bridge,
and Enbridge Line 5. Additionally, the efforts of the Russian agents went beyond stirring up
existing controversy surrounding the pipelines. Russian agents attempted to incite Americans to
take action against pipeline efforts by promoting links and references to online petitions.

Isn't that interesting.. ?
This is our planet. This is our time.
Let's not waste either.

sidd

  • First-year ice
  • Posts: 6774
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 1047
  • Likes Given: 0
Re: Russiagate
« Reply #3033 on: March 07, 2018, 05:40:09 AM »
" ... Those 9000 posts that sidd was talking about is JUST about U.S. energy policy."

That surprises you ? it's right in the title. In fact it's in the URL. Let me type it again for you, in case you didnt read

"Russian Attempts to Influence U.S. Domestic Energy Markets by Exploiting Social Media"

In large type on the first page.

" Which not only shows that sidd is spreading mis-information again ... "

Whereas i think it shows that some of us here do not, cannot, or will not read.

sidd

TerryM

  • First-year ice
  • Posts: 6002
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 893
  • Likes Given: 5
Re: Russiagate
« Reply #3034 on: March 07, 2018, 07:57:44 AM »
" ... Those 9000 posts that sidd was talking about is JUST about U.S. energy policy."

That surprises you ? it's right in the title. In fact it's in the URL. Let me type it again for you, in case you didnt read

"Russian Attempts to Influence U.S. Domestic Energy Markets by Exploiting Social Media"

In large type on the first page.

" Which not only shows that sidd is spreading mis-information again ... "

Whereas i think it shows that some of us here do not, cannot, or will not read.

sidd


sidd
The science of triskaidekaphobia is proven yet again! Twelve Russians wouldn't have had the numbers to flip the election, and fourteen would have tripped over each other's ungainly bots. Joan Quigley could have foretold the whole sordid affair, had her Gemini not been stuck in Uranus.


Robert Mueller = 13 letters ... Russian bot = 13 letters ... 13 controllers = 13 letters ... Social Media = 13 letters ... Putin and Trump = 13 letters... AAAGGGGHHHHHH = 13 letters


Hillary got us off on the wrong track with her 14 agencies, otherwise we'd never have missed such obvious connections.


Aibohphobia - Fear of palindromes 8)
Terry


Rob Dekker

  • Nilas ice
  • Posts: 2386
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 120
  • Likes Given: 119
Re: Russiagate
« Reply #3035 on: March 07, 2018, 08:02:13 AM »
" ... Those 9000 posts that sidd was talking about is JUST about U.S. energy policy."

That surprises you ? it's right in the title. In fact it's in the URL. Let me type it again for you, in case you didnt read

"Russian Attempts to Influence U.S. Domestic Energy Markets by Exploiting Social Media"

In large type on the first page.

" Which not only shows that sidd is spreading mis-information again ... "

Whereas i think it shows that some of us here do not, cannot, or will not read.

sidd

I call BS on that.

This is what you posted :

Quote
Over2015-2017:

 9000+ "russian" posts on facebook,twitter and instagram
 4000+ IRA linked accounts
 more than four percent of all IRA tweets were related to energy or environmental issues
 eight percent of IRA tweets that were related to the election

"The main focus of the Russian efforts centered on disruption of pipeline development or the advancement of climate change policies targeting fossil fuels."

O dear. A whole 9000 posts over two years. They need to hire better help. Some members of this forum might outdo them.

Not a peep about that these 9000 posts from IRA were ONLY about US Energy Markets. Not about the elections, nor ANYTHING else.

Sorry sidd. You have been busted.
And that's OK if you admit it.
Instead you respond, as expected, with a patronizing post about "some of us here do not, cannot, or will not read.".

We read alright. I found the misleading info, and Martin found it too.

If you want to show that the Russian influence on our elections was insignificant, you should not have to reside to mis-information like this. Just stating the truth should be enough.

Meanwhile, the Republicans are using Russiagate to further the fossil fuel agenda.
« Last Edit: March 07, 2018, 08:46:44 AM by Rob Dekker »
This is our planet. This is our time.
Let's not waste either.

Rob Dekker

  • Nilas ice
  • Posts: 2386
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 120
  • Likes Given: 119
Re: Russiagate
« Reply #3036 on: March 07, 2018, 09:23:12 AM »
Does that mean the media doesn't have to talk about it? Or that Americans don't demand that they talk about it? Isn't Russiagate the perfect entry point to get to the problem of Citizens United (ie money in politics in general)? Imagine this getting the level of attention that the indictment of the troll farm people got. Where is the resistance?

The resistance is right here. Against the Putin apologists, and the folks wanting to destroy the Democratic party, and the folks who want to see the Mueller investigation disappear.

Of course this is a good entry point to getting to the problem of Citizens United. So why don't we talk about Citizens United on this forum ?

Why instead of that, these ASIF threads appear to focus on destroying the Democratic Party by draining it of money, splitting it up by demonizing particular Democrats, and poo-pooing the Mueller investigation and not a single bad word against the alt-right.
« Last Edit: March 07, 2018, 10:12:06 AM by Rob Dekker »
This is our planet. This is our time.
Let's not waste either.

Neven

  • Administrator
  • First-year ice
  • Posts: 9470
    • View Profile
    • Arctic Sea Ice Blog
  • Liked: 1333
  • Likes Given: 617
Re: Russiagate
« Reply #3037 on: March 07, 2018, 10:46:46 AM »
Neven: Jane Mayer is the author of Dark Money and has been producing groundbreaking reporting for years. She works for, imnsho, the best news organization in the United States (there are others, but The New Yorker hires the best and gives them full support to do their jobs, which she has done at some personal risk. There's nobody like her. If people want to defeat dark money, she's a leader, not a follower.

We would not know what we know about the Koch organization if she hadn't exposed them.

I doubt she will be spending time responding to whatever it is people (particularly on the internet) think she should respond to. She will, instead, be continuing her ground-breaking reporting.

When somebody is the best there is, it is not their job to defend themselves but to continue to excel. Kind of like what you have done pulling together expertise on the Arctic.

She is not a politician. She is a truth-teller and a premier investigator, and it has taken courage and intelligence to do what she has done, on multiple fronts.

I know, Susan. It wasn't meant as an attack. It just seems that Mayer got a couple of things wrong wrt the Steele dossier in this piece (timeline), which is unexpected because of her reputation and because she was quite close to the fire, I believe. She doesn't need to defend herself, but she could explain, if she would choose to do so.
The enemy is within
Don't confuse me with him

E. Smith

AbruptSLR

  • Multi-year ice
  • Posts: 19703
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 2268
  • Likes Given: 286
Re: Russiagate
« Reply #3038 on: March 07, 2018, 10:47:21 AM »
Per the linked AlterNet article (from two days ago) Mueller may have a memorandum of understanding between Team Trump and Russia:

https://www.alternet.org/news-amp-politics/republican-strategist-was-told-mueller-has-documents-linking-trump-russian
“It is not the strongest or the most intelligent who will survive but those who can best manage change.”
― Leon C. Megginson

gerontocrat

  • Multi-year ice
  • Posts: 20378
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 5289
  • Likes Given: 69
Re: Russiagate
« Reply #3039 on: March 07, 2018, 10:49:09 AM »

Of course this is a good entry point to getting to the problem of Citizens United. So why don't we talk about Citizens United on this forum ?


Because it's off-topic (Corporate Democrats thread ?), nevertheless -
It seems to me that as long as "Citizens United" is the Law of the Land, there is little that can be done.

RUSSIAGATE.

The US of A has laws about foreign agents and activities by foreigners that threaten the State and which can over-ride 1st Amendment protection.
Social media owners like Google and Facebook are subject to the Law, and also dislike bad publicity. The dark web is on servers often owned by "legitimate" businesses and of course feed into the corporate owned www.

How come the law is not being applied all the time?
How come Google etc are not being embarassed by exposure of the extent to which they host such a lot of nasty and often criminal stuff (and I am not just talking about Russiagate) ?

Money Rules, OK ? I guess so.
"Para a Causa do Povo a Luta Continua!"
"And that's all I'm going to say about that". Forrest Gump
"Damn, I wanted to see what happened next" (Epitaph)

Neven

  • Administrator
  • First-year ice
  • Posts: 9470
    • View Profile
    • Arctic Sea Ice Blog
  • Liked: 1333
  • Likes Given: 617
Re: Russiagate
« Reply #3040 on: March 07, 2018, 11:01:27 AM »
The resistance is right here. Against the Putin apologists, and the folks wanting to destroy the Democratic party, and the folks who want to see the Mueller investigation disappear.

Unwittingly propping up the system is no resistance, no matter how much you get worked up about it. You are clearly in need of an enemy, which makes you blind to your biases and susceptible to all kinds of propaganda.

Quote
Of course this is a good entry point to getting to the problem of Citizens United. So why don't we talk about Citizens United on this forum ?

What is there to say about Citizens United, unless someone here wants to defend it? I find it much more interesting to talk about whether the media talks about Citizends United, or all the other stuff tied to Russiagate (US meddling other countries, other countries meddling in US (some okay, some not), US meddling in US, voter fraud, etc). Does it? Or is it only about the minutiae and Trump?

Quote
Why instead of that, these ASIF threads appear to focus on destroying the Democratic Party by draining it of money, splitting it up by demonizing particular Democrats, and poo-pooing the Mueller investigation and not a single bad word against the alt-right.

From my perspective it's about saving the Democratic Party, because it's the only place where meaningful change can start (instead of making the same mistakes over and over again). I don't see why I need to talk about the right or the alt-right, unless someone feels the need to defend them. I refuse to let the (alt) right be the starting point of everything I think and do, but rather rely on my world view, which I have thought about for a very long time, instead of blindly accepting the establishment narrative.

If you really want to resist, you need to start representing the American people.

But that's off-topic. As I see it, Russiagate is mostly used for negative stuff (to scare people, to silence people, to distract people), and not used for positive stuff, like the parallel discussions I mention. All this negative stuff may very well have very negative repercussions (a hot war between nuclear powers at worst), especially if the Mueller investigation doesn't end like the media has promised it will for 18 months now. I think it's a strategical mistake to go along with it so meekly.
The enemy is within
Don't confuse me with him

E. Smith

Martin Gisser

  • Guest
Re: Russiagate
« Reply #3041 on: March 07, 2018, 12:43:42 PM »
I must admit I read only half of the Mayer article (too long), but not because I didn't find it interesting. To be clear, Marcy Wheeler is pretty sure about Russiagate, as she has iterated time and again during the excellent interviews on the Real News Network, but she's no fan of the Steele dossier.

It'd be cool if Mayer would respond to Wheeler.
Same here. I had to skip a few sentences and paragraphs... The whole article is more for a history book, to be read on paper at the beach in 2019 or 2020.

Until then, Mayer might add a few details, e.g. that Isikoff (of Nunes memo fame) also was at the secret Steele press meeting. He was the first to tell about this. And apparently Isikoff could check a few things, while Mayer found "there was virtually no way to follow up". The two should have a talk.

For now, it is more of an encyclopedia which is good to have on the shelf. (E.g. when you have to play "Steele booster" to defend Steele against GOP smear tactics.)

Marcy Wheeler might have a point regarding the timeline, but her other nitpicking (heck, Nunes' bunk memo again) and language ("Steele boosters") puts me off.

sidd

  • First-year ice
  • Posts: 6774
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 1047
  • Likes Given: 0
Re: Russiagate
« Reply #3042 on: March 07, 2018, 08:05:07 PM »
Mr. Dekker carefully elides the URL i included from his quotation of my post:

https://science.house.gov/sites/republicans.science.house.gov/files/documents/SST%20Staff%20Report%20-%20Russian%20Attempts%20to%20Influence%20U.S.%20Domestic%20Energy%20Markets%20by%20Exploiting%20Social%20Media%2003.01.18.pdf

It says, for those who don't read:

"Staff Report-Russian Attempts to Influence U.S. Domestic Energy Markets by Exploiting Social Media"

If one trouble to follow the link, the pdf invoked by that URL has as it's first page and title:

"Russian Attempts to Influence U.S. Domestic Energy Markets by Exploiting Social Media"

Some of us don't read. Or don't pay attention when they do. That is regrettable, but not as regrettable as blaming others for their own inattention and misunderstanding.

sidd
« Last Edit: March 07, 2018, 10:38:46 PM by sidd »

sidd

  • First-year ice
  • Posts: 6774
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 1047
  • Likes Given: 0
Re: Russiagate
« Reply #3043 on: March 07, 2018, 11:44:07 PM »
There's a bit in the Mayer article on Steele memos that supports the insider theory on DNC emails:

" Steele’s sources claimed that the digital attack involved agents “within the Democratic Party structure itself,” ..."

Thats what Murray, McGovern and a bunch of others have been arguing as well.

sidd


« Last Edit: March 07, 2018, 11:51:41 PM by sidd »

sidd

  • First-year ice
  • Posts: 6774
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 1047
  • Likes Given: 0

Rob Dekker

  • Nilas ice
  • Posts: 2386
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 120
  • Likes Given: 119
Re: Russiagate
« Reply #3045 on: March 08, 2018, 04:31:01 AM »
There's a bit in the Mayer article on Steele memos that supports the insider theory on DNC emails:

" Steele’s sources claimed that the digital attack involved agents “within the Democratic Party structure itself,” ..."

Thats what Murray, McGovern and a bunch of others have been arguing as well.

sidd

Let's do some fact checking on that. The New Yorker writes :

https://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2018/03/12/christopher-steele-the-man-behind-the-trump-dossier

Quote
On July 26, 2016, after WikiLeaks disseminated the D.N.C. e-mails, Steele filed yet another memo, this time claiming that the Kremlin was “behind” the hacking, which was part of a Russian cyber war against Hillary Clinton’s campaign. Many of the details seemed far-fetched: Steele’s sources claimed that the digital attack involved agents “within the Democratic Party structure itself,” as well as Russian émigrés in the U.S. and “associated offensive cyber operators.”
Neither of these claims has been substantiated, and it’s hard to imagine that they will be.

In other words, it's propaganda.
This is our planet. This is our time.
Let's not waste either.

Rob Dekker

  • Nilas ice
  • Posts: 2386
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 120
  • Likes Given: 119
Re: Russiagate
« Reply #3046 on: March 08, 2018, 04:44:58 AM »
The resistance is right here. Against the Putin apologists, and the folks wanting to destroy the Democratic party, and the folks who want to see the Mueller investigation disappear.

Unwittingly propping up the system is no resistance, no matter how much you get worked up about it. You are clearly in need of an enemy, which makes you blind to your biases and susceptible to all kinds of propaganda.

Neven, is this some kind of phychological projection ?

I am the one doing fact checks all the time. Especially since there is so much propaganda going around. For example on your Jimmy Dore videos or the many posts here from web sites listed under propornot.com.

And now I am the one "susceptible to all kinds of propaganda" ?
I thought this forum would appreciate fact checkers, but I guess I'm mistaken.
This is our planet. This is our time.
Let's not waste either.

Buddy

  • Young ice
  • Posts: 3379
  • Go DUCKS!!
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 49
  • Likes Given: 34
Re: Russiagate
« Reply #3047 on: March 09, 2018, 01:45:08 PM »
As I said before.....the next couple of months should be turbulent:

http://www.palmerreport.com/analysis/flips-erik-prince-betsy-devos/8659/

McMaster, Devos, and Tillerson I would give the highest probability of leaving.  Kelly and Sessions....who knows?  Depends if Traitor Donnie has taken his pills on that day.

Also waiting for the indictments of Donnie Jr, Kushner, and Ivanka.  I think it is LIKELY they will come in the next few months.

What the HELL is Tillerson thinking?  The thing with Tillerson....is that he may be caught between a rock and a hard place.  He has a LOT of liability for lying about global warming over the past 20 years when he was at Exxon, and he may be hoping that Donnie will give him a pardon.  And right now.....Donnie needs to stem the bleeding of the staff heading out of Dodge.

Donnie likely tries to get people "tied in" if it suits his needs.  Like Melania.  If Melania were to threaten to walk, maybe Donnie would spill the beans on her visa.  I wouldn't put that past Donnie for a second....even if it hurt himself to a degree.  He is vindictive.

 
FOX (RT) News....."The Trump Channel.....where truth and journalism are dead."

Martin Gisser

  • Guest
Re: Russiagate
« Reply #3048 on: March 09, 2018, 01:55:29 PM »
Since the beginning I've been talking about the "last stand of the fossil fools". It's not as simple as a mere "Russiagate". Now some more details seem to come to light about the Arab connection, incl. nuclear power fools.

Susan Anderson

  • Grease ice
  • Posts: 527
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 40
  • Likes Given: 279
Re: Russiagate
« Reply #3049 on: March 09, 2018, 04:21:31 PM »
The resistance is right here. Against the Putin apologists, and the folks wanting to destroy the Democratic party, and the folks who want to see the Mueller investigation disappear.

Unwittingly propping up the system is no resistance, no matter how much you get worked up about it. You are clearly in need of an enemy, which makes you blind to your biases and susceptible to all kinds of propaganda.

Neven, is this some kind of phychological projection ?

I am the one doing fact checks all the time. Especially since there is so much propaganda going around. For example on your Jimmy Dore videos or the many posts here from web sites listed under propornot.com.

And now I am the one "susceptible to all kinds of propaganda" ?
I thought this forum would appreciate fact checkers, but I guess I'm mistaken.

Thank you!

Indeed. It has shocked and disappointed me to discover this agenda on this forum. I've done what I could, but apparently the bias is so deep that hatred is more important than the truth. Every Democrat and every Republican has a voting record.

I understand the deep disgust with the US degradation. It's not been fun living with its acceleration since the election of Reagan (and before, in our international stupidity, Vietnam, Mossadegh, and so forth). It is not surprising that many in the world want to wash their hands of us. But that does not mean that I or you or Democrats in general are personally responsible for not winning. Vote cheating is key, among other things. Facts about the NRA are emerging.

Blaming those who aren't in power and undermining efforts to recover a voice in US affairs is only going to make things worse.