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Buddy

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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #3200 on: March 17, 2018, 06:00:46 PM »
Russian-born businessman Felix Sater has confirmed a bombshell detail in the Russia investigation

https://www.yahoo.com/news/m/2dfc8ce5-3278-3342-b1c0-1ddba5015696/ss_russian-born-businessman.html

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•Felix Sater, a Russian-born businessman and associate of President Donald Trump, confirmed Friday that the Trump Organization was pursuing a deal with a sanctioned Russian bank at the height of the 2016 election.
•The company was trying to secure financing for a Trump Tower in Moscow from Russia's VTB Bank through a local developer.
•The US imposed sanctions on VTB in 2014 and 2015, which froze its assets in the country and blocked US entities from doing business with the bank.
•The revelation will be of interest to special counsel Robert Mueller, who recently subpoenaed the Trump Organization for documents related to the Trump Tower Moscow deal.

I'll be darned.  Those pesky dots keep running together into FACTS.  What a surprise.....  ;)
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Sigmetnow

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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #3201 on: March 17, 2018, 06:07:52 PM »
...
Even if it's true, which I highly, highly doubt, I would say: Let them try. Let the country with an economy smaller than that of Spain, and a military budget that is half of this year's Pentagon budget increase, try and provoke American Empire. They'd be insane to even try it.
...

Believe it.  You don’t need a big economy or a big military budget to launch a cyber attack.  They’ve been successfully conducting cyber warfare on various countries for years — they have no fear of repercussions.

United States Computer Emergency Readiness Team
Alert (TA18-074A)
Russian Government Cyber Activity Targeting Energy and Other Critical Infrastructure Sectors
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Overview
This joint Technical Alert (TA) is the result of analytic efforts between the Department of Homeland Security (DHS) and the Federal Bureau of Investigation (FBI). This alert provides information on Russian government actions targeting U.S. Government entities as well as organizations in the energy, nuclear, commercial facilities, water, aviation, and critical manufacturing sectors. It also contains indicators of compromise (IOCs) and technical details on the tactics, techniques, and procedures (TTPs) used by Russian government cyber actors on compromised victim networks. DHS and FBI produced this alert to educate network defenders to enhance their ability to identify and reduce exposure to malicious activity.

DHS and FBI characterize this activity as a multi-stage intrusion campaign by Russian government cyber actors who targeted small commercial facilities’ networks where they staged malware, conducted spear phishing, and gained remote access into energy sector networks. After obtaining access, the Russian government cyber actors conducted network reconnaissance, moved laterally, and collected information pertaining to Industrial Control Systems (ICS).


Description
Since at least March 2016, Russian government cyber actors—hereafter referred to as “threat actors”—targeted government entities and multiple U.S. critical infrastructure sectors, including the energy, nuclear, commercial facilities, water, aviation, and critical manufacturing sectors.

Analysis by DHS and FBI, resulted in the identification of distinct indicators and behaviors related to this activity. Of note, the report Dragonfly: Western energy sector targeted by sophisticated attack group, released by Symantec on September 6, 2017, provides additional information about this ongoing campaign.

This campaign comprises two distinct categories of victims: staging and intended targets. The initial victims are peripheral organizations such as trusted third-party suppliers with less secure networks, referred to as “staging targets” throughout this alert. The threat actors used the staging targets’ networks as pivot points and malware repositories when targeting their final intended victims. NCCIC and FBI judge the ultimate objective of the actors is to compromise organizational networks, also referred to as the “intended target.”

Technical Details
The threat actors in this campaign employed a variety of TTPs, including
spear-phishing emails (from compromised legitimate account),
watering-hole domains,
credential gathering,
open-source and network reconnaissance,
host-based exploitation, and
targeting industrial control system (ICS) infrastructure.
Using Cyber Kill Chain for Analysis

DHS used the Lockheed-Martin Cyber Kill Chain model to analyze, discuss, and dissect malicious cyber activity. Phases of the model include reconnaissance, weaponization, delivery, exploitation, installation, command and control, and actions on the objective. This section will provide a high-level overview of threat actors’ activities within this framework.
...
https://www.us-cert.gov/ncas/alerts/TA18-074A
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Buddy

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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #3202 on: March 17, 2018, 06:13:46 PM »
Retired four-star Army general: Trump, 'under the sway of Putin,' threatens national security

https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/world/2018/03/17/retired-four-star-army-general-calls-trump-under-sway-putin-threat-us-national-security/434811002/

Retired 4 star General Barry McCafrrey in a tweet:


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Reluctantly I have concluded that President Trump is a serious threat to US national security. He is refusing to protect vital US interests from active Russian attacks. It is apparent that he is for some unknown reason under the sway of Mr Putin.


4:46 PM - Mar 16, 2018
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Jim Pettit

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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #3203 on: March 17, 2018, 06:17:03 PM »
Even if it's true, which I highly, highly doubt, I would say: Let them try. Let the country with an economy smaller than that of Spain, and a military budget that is half of this year's Pentagon budget increase, try and provoke American Empire. They'd be insane to even try it.

Are you guys really going to let them scare you into spending even more of your tax money on Lockheed, Blackwater and so on? Or are you going to be smart and decide there's one thing to be even more scared of? It starts with an A and ends with a W.

I support and maintain a handful of websites, and a random glance at the firewall logs shows that even those small and well-defended sites are hit literally thousand of times a day--sometimes hundreds do times a minute--from machines situated in countries that used to make up the Eastern Bloc. In fact, given their overall industry success rate, I'd say Eastern European hackers are the most advanced and capable ones out their; they are certainly the most threatening, even if Asian hackers are more ubiquitous. The fact is, the United States lags far behind Russia in IT education and training. Did you know that 11-year-old Russian kids have to study informatics in middle school? Russian kids are learning about advanced computational algorithms and network security while American kids are being taught basic math and reading comprehension.

I'm not making a direct correlation here between Russia's advanced hacking abilities and Donald Trump/collusion--but I would say there's no reason whatsoever to doubt their ability to wreak mass havoc should Putin wish to pull the trigger.

And, yes, AGW is more likely to kill tens of millions of us before Putin does. But that doesn't mean we should ever ignore what they're doing.

Neven

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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #3204 on: March 17, 2018, 06:39:03 PM »
I can't think of a one sentence rebuttal to your points, Steve, so I'll reply to a couple of them. Overall, I do see this pattern where everything is bent to fit the Putin/Russia narrative. Remember, I'm not saying Putin is innocent, far from it, but you can't even bring yourself to saying: Anything is possible, but Putin is the main suspect. No, it has to be Putin, and so it is Putin. Full circle.

Whoever is behind the Skripal poisoning (even Putin), is probably counting on the majority of people to think you like do, shoving aside due process and trusting governments, media and intelligence agencies on their word. This is not only dangerous, but wrong.

The putative motives for Putin to order such a "signed" assassination are quite clear.  First, he's made clear that he views such men as traitors, and promised such traitors will pay for their treason.  Putin wouldn't issue such a decree without demonstrating he's serious, so he has to carry out assassinations that would-be traitors can understand as being Putin's justice.  Nerve gas and polonium do this.

Why not just execute the guy while he was already in Russian prison?  He had, at that point, value to trade, which happened.  And Putin could have calculated that assassination after the guy gets sanctuary would have a *stronger* deterrent effect than mere execution in prison.

Why now, instead of a few years ago?  Because Putin, right now, has a compelling need to make sure there are no more leaks.  Steele likely attained information for the dossier from his Russian intelligence contacts.  Regardless of Steele, there have been a number of recent arrests and at least one execution of FSB agents in recent months.  Putin understands that his security apparatus has recently been a leaking sieve.  Time now to instill strict discipline.

I'm amazed how you seem to be able to look right into Putin's head. Putin thinks this, Putin understands that. Are you his psychiatrist?

So, you instill strict discipline by killing a spy that was swapped 8 years ago? In exchange for even more international tensions, sanctions, etc? Couldn't he have ordered the execution of some double spy within Russia to make something clear? The message would've been the same, but without everyone in the West going nuts yet again.

Putin's quite popular in Russia - also thanks to Western media -, and so it's not like he needs some kind of mini-Reichstag to get or keep power. That can't be the motive either.

Like I said, it could be that Skripal knew something wrt Russiagate and had to be silenced. But why use a nerve agent that is considered to be a Russian fingerprint?

Finally, another possible motive of performing an assassination, in a way that points directly to Russia, no thorough investigation required, is to rile everyone up in the West on purpose. I don't know what Putin expects to achieve that way. Given that the Russian economy is smaller than that of Spain and there are many socioeconomic problems, you would expect Putin not too be too happy with trade sanctions and so on. I can understand some chicanery to push back against NATO expansion on Russia's borders, but provocations don't make a lot of sense, on the face of it.

But maybe he is that crazy, evil mastermind, after all, looking to conquer Europe, just like in 1984.

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I have great respect for A-Team's expertise in this realm.  I don't doubt his words that a bright grad student could make Novichok.  But really, who in their right mind is going to manufacture a weapon of mass destruction (with risk of life in prison), not to mention the risk of getting the process wrong and dying?  Just to kill an old guy and frame Russia?

Someone who gets paid very handsomely? There should be plenty of former USSR chemists who would know how to manufacture it. It may be good to remember that the rest of the world doesn't look exactly like your neighbourhood, filled with people with your cultural values and standard of living. Like I've said, it's also entirely possible that this kind of stuff is sold on some kind of black market.

I think it would be wise to let go of the argument that only Russia owns all the Novichok in the world, and no one else knows how to make it. That's just too much wishful thinking.

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No, an oligarch in Russia wouldn't dare create an international incident without Putin's approval--that could easily be another kind of death sentence.

Yet another assumption, in which you even imply Putin wouldn't be pleased with an international incident. How do you know what Russian oligarchs think and do? Are they your patients as well?

Maybe there's a faction that does it behind Putin's back. Or maybe the culprit doesn't care about Putin and just wanted Skripal dead, because of activities Skripal was still engaged in.

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The CIA, doing so to frame Russia?  Not even a Trump appointee would be so stupid.  And it would have the effect of drying up all forms of intelligence from Russia.

Drying up all forms of intelligence from Russia? What are you talking about? Not even in movies do things work that way. What do you care about intelligence from corrupt Russia if your main goal is to push the New Cold War?

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An anti-Russian Ukrainian plot, to frame Russia?  Barely plausible.  They, too, would suffer a drying up of intelligence sources.

Again the drying up...  ???  ::)

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And the risk of the plot becoming discovered would imply the current state there being utterly abandoned by the West, with Russian tanks ready then to roll into Kiev.  Far too much risk, for very speculative benefit.  They're smarter than Trump's administration, not dumber.

Why would the West abandon Ukraine, even if it was conclusively proven that it was done to frame Russia? Steve, don't project what you would do onto these forces. They are not honest like you are, and would spin the whole thing from here to Sunday. Do you really think everyone would go: Naughty Ukraine, you're on your own now? I'm pretty sure that kind of evidence wouldn't even see the light of day. Doesn't fit the narrative.

Neither will you see Russian tanks rolling into Kiev any time soon. That would be a huge strategical blunder, as Russia doesn't have the military power to pull such a stunt off. They have deterrents, yes, but not enough offensive power to take on NATO.

And why would they want to do more than control Crimea and other Russian ethnic regions? This isn't the USSR, where ideology trumps logic or morals. Russia is a capitalist country.

There are plenty of motives for Ukraine and their allies to further isolate Russia. Your counterarguments are weak at best.

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So a defense contractor?  Wrong MO.  The agent used is difficult to detect.  They'd risk personal ruin and life in prison for an act that might have easily been written off as a mere heart attack.  Too much risk for speculative benefit  No, they'd plant a bomb with components traceable to Russia, or sabotage Western armaments to look like Russian actions.  Then we need a beefed-up armaments here.  And they'd make it happen so that nobody dies, so no CEO has to risk prison.

So, if a bomb went off with components traceable to Russian, you would immediately believe that Russia actually did that? The nerve agent stuff makes some sense, but you'd really think that it would be a logical move for Russia to perform a terrorist attack in the West?

No CEO has to risk prison? Again, you are projecting your honest self. What would SteveMDFP do? Well, he sure wouldn't be so bold as to do something that would mean getting jailed!

These people don't think like you, Steve. They're above the law. Do you even know what 'military-industrial complex' means? It means something more than just a bunch of defense contractor looking to make an extra buck. The new head of the CIA is a torturer who destroyed evidence and got away with it. The neocons have a firm grip of US politics and government. Please, stop being so naive.

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No, Putin's the only one with motive, opportunity, and a good risk/benefit ratio.

You wish this to be so, because the narrative that Russia is the source of all our woes is so comforting. You have your perfect enemy. All we have to do, is subjugate or destroy this enemy, and then we can start changing the world. Therefore we must trust everything our governments and intelligence agencies tell us. The wolf will protect us.

No, this is exactly how the wolf wants you to think.
The enemy is within
Don't confuse me with him

E. Smith

Neven

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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #3205 on: March 17, 2018, 06:44:50 PM »
Lockheed-Martin Cyber Kill Chain model

Wow, the Lockheed-Martin Cyber Kill Chain model no less! How much did that one cost? And a four-star army general says it too: US under attack from Russia!

Well, it must be true then! Ramp up, I say, ramp up! We need newer, bigger, better weapons to get them commies!

Why do you guys go along with this so meekly? Don't you see that only dialogue, de-escalation and disarmament offer a way out of this mess?
The enemy is within
Don't confuse me with him

E. Smith

Neven

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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #3206 on: March 17, 2018, 06:51:21 PM »
And, yes, AGW is more likely to kill tens of millions of us before Putin does. But that doesn't mean we should ever ignore what they're doing.

No, you need to take away the incentive for them to do anything, through peace talks and nuclear disarmament, and so on. But there are forces who don't want that to happen. That's why they're trying to keep you scared. Russia is quite simply the new Al Qaeda.

It is impossible to solve AGW this way. You can't do both things at the same time, or even one after the other. You can't ramp up hostilities and solve AGW. It is impossible.

The only way to do it, is to start changing the system and cutting off the oxygen to those forces, responsible for both AGW and the New Cold War they would so very much like to see. But be prepared, they will try to scare you even more, once you start doing that. It's the only way.
The enemy is within
Don't confuse me with him

E. Smith

Buddy

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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #3207 on: March 17, 2018, 07:31:46 PM »
Treason Trump is going off the deep end today....as a constitutional crisis quickly moves to the forefront.

Trump is railing against the FBI and DOJ.  I'm sure it has nothing to do with the growing mountains of evidence against him.  I also expect a lot more trolling from his Russian friends (and those friendly to little Vladi).

Expect more as we move towards a "constitutional crisis."  Trump has got to stop the Mueller investigation at ALL COSTS.   And he has company in that boat as well (NRA, RNC, and a few/several Congressmen).   We're clearly getting closer to that crisis....

What will Donnie do about March 25th when a Hurricane Stormy lands?  Between Stormy Daniels, getting caught lying to the Canadian Prime Minister, and trying to stop the Mueller investigation in its tracks.... Donnie has his work cut out for him.  Stormy is the least of his problems (and ours.... "ours" being US citizens who actually have to live under this current "want to be dictator"). 

Fortunately..... he has people not only on the "far right" helping him like Sean Hannity, Laura Ingrham, and others..... he also has people on the far left that are trying to poo poo the RussiaGate investigation as well.   It is an interesting grab bag of folks.....

Buckle up....

 

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SteveMDFP

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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #3208 on: March 17, 2018, 08:13:30 PM »


I'm amazed how you seem to be able to look right into Putin's head. Putin thinks this, Putin understands that. Are you his psychiatrist?

Snort.  This isn't psychoanalysis.  This is just  the *incentives* of any autocrat who seeks to maintain and expand power.  No psychology involved, this could have been planned by an AI-empowered computer.  Strategy isn't psychology.

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So, you instill strict discipline by killing a spy that was swapped 8 years ago? In exchange for even more international tensions, sanctions, etc? Couldn't he have ordered the execution of some double spy within Russia to make something clear? The message would've been the same, but without everyone in the West going nuts yet again.

Yes, you kill the guy now if you need to send the message to the audience now.  You only take the risk if the benefits outweigh the likely risks.  The UK hasn't previously enacted crippling sanctions over the assassination of Litvinenko, why (and how) would they orchestrate serious sanctions over this near-killing?

And, of course, there appear to have been at least one killing and a few imprisonments in Russia. E.g.:  https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2017/01/27/mystery-death-ex-kgb-chief-linked-mi6-spys-dossier-donald-trump/
 I'd gather Putin wanted to make clear to would-be traitors that they will not find safety outside of Russia.  He'd have to execute outside of Russia to demonstrate that to this audience.

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The CIA, doing so to frame Russia?  Not even a Trump appointee would be so stupid.  And it would have the effect of drying up all forms of intelligence from Russia.

Drying up all forms of intelligence from Russia? What are you talking about? Not even in movies do things work that way. What do you care about intelligence from corrupt Russia if your main goal is to push the New Cold War?

How is this not clear?  An ex-KGB agent ends up dead in the UK, by the apparent hand of Putin.  What person possessing sensitive Russian secrets is going to freely share with the West after this?

If security agencies in the west can't get information from such sources, they hamstring themselves in their core professional purpose.

Call these spooks evil liars, OK.  But they're not stupid, and they wouldn't undermine their own professional work.  Only Trump himself is so stupid.

And yes, if the true goal were to to further expand US military spending, you absolutely *do* need intelligence sources in Russia to give at least a plausible story of what threats need to be countered.  Raytheon isn't going to both engineer a nerve agent assassination, then plan on manufacturing bogus "Russian intelligence" of new "threats" that need their technology.

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They're above the law. Do you even know what 'military-industrial complex' means? It means something more than just a bunch of defense contractor looking to make an extra buck. The new head of the CIA is a torturer who destroyed evidence and got away with it. The neocons have a firm grip of US politics and government. Please, stop being so naive.

I'm not the one being naive.  Regardless of anyone's respect for law or order, every individual decision-maker responds to specific incentives and risks.  Most want money, many want power, a few want to advance nationalistic ideals--nobody wants to be found out as a criminal and be prosecuted or executed. 
 
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You wish this to be so, because the narrative that Russia is the source of all our woes is so comforting. You have your perfect enemy. All we have to do, is subjugate or destroy this enemy, and then we can start changing the world. Therefore we must trust everything our governments and intelligence agencies tell us. The wolf will protect us.

No, this is exactly how the wolf wants you to think.

Now who is psychoanalyzing?  I don't think "they" give a crap what you or I think.  Or the general public, as long as votes and dollars go the right way.

No, I see Putin as a reasonably intelligent, if somewhat ruthless, leader.  His actions can be understood, he can be presented with incentives, he's someone other leaders can do good deals with.

Trump, on the other hand is astoundingly stupid (as Tillerson famously exclaimed), as well as erratic, impulsive, and vain.  He's uniquely capable of initiating a nuclear holocaust.  I have no real fear that Putin (alone) would contemplate anything with such an outcome. 

But I do think he has a need to keep the people holding sensitive intelligence in line.  He seems to be effective in this.  Occam's razor.

Neven

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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #3209 on: March 17, 2018, 08:20:22 PM »
That razor cuts both ways. Many people profit from a New Cold War.
The enemy is within
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SteveMDFP

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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #3210 on: March 17, 2018, 08:34:53 PM »
That razor cuts both ways. Many people profit from a New Cold War.

If that were the goal, then the killers chose a very Rube Goldberg approach to that aim:

I can't believe the killers are that risk-taking, ineffectual, and stupid.

Neven

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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #3211 on: March 17, 2018, 08:43:32 PM »
I can't believe the killers are that risk-taking, ineffectual, and stupid.

Maybe that's because you don't want to believe it. Remember, I'm not saying Putin didn't do it. You're the one who is certain here.

If their goal was a condemnation of Russia before due process, raising international tensions even further, then I'd say: Mission accomplished. Right after that we get a report that Russian trolls can completely take out American infrastructure at any moment. Maybe they're not under our beds, but they're at least in our sockets, in our webcams, in our faucets.

For those who want a New Cold War (and they're on both sides), things are going smoothly. They've got us right where they want us.
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SteveMDFP

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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #3212 on: March 17, 2018, 09:04:02 PM »
I can't believe the killers are that risk-taking, ineffectual, and stupid.

Maybe that's because you don't want to believe it. Remember, I'm not saying Putin didn't do it. You're the one who is certain here.

If their goal was a condemnation of Russia before due process, raising international tensions even further, then I'd say: Mission accomplished. Right after that we get a report that Russian trolls can completely take out American infrastructure at any moment. Maybe they're not under our beds, but they're at least in our sockets, in our webcams, in our faucets.

For those who want a New Cold War (and they're on both sides), things are going smoothly. They've got us right where they want us.

Well, present a credible scenario and my mind is open.
Offing a Russian double-agent by false-flag nerve gas is such a weak impetus for Cold War spending.  Honestly, not that many people care what happens to such an individual.  The UK government has to object to the affront to its sovereignty, so they take largely symbolic actions. 

Might be different if it happened on US soil.  There have to be former KGB agents in refuge in the US, such a killing here would be far more effective for stoking Cold War sentiment and spending.  Why not one of these?

Note, I'm not being anti-Russia in any of this.  If the US had a problem of a steady stream of Edward Snowdens getting refuge in Moscow, and a couple ended up poisoned by exotic means,  I'd just as loudly point the finger at the CIA.  Same motives, same strategy, same analysis.

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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #3213 on: March 17, 2018, 09:44:57 PM »
Hopefully, Mueller can use such information against Team Trump:

Title: "Sessions’ Firing of McCabe Violated His Promise to Recuse"

https://slate.com/news-and-politics/2018/03/sessions-firing-of-mccabe-violated-his-promise-to-recuse.html

Extract: "Attorney General Jeff Sessions’ decision to fire former FBI deputy director Andrew McCabe appears to directly violate the promise Sessions made, under oath, to recuse himself from such matters.

Some might contend that Sessions’ recusal covered only the Clinton and Trump campaigns, and that McCabe’s firing involved the Clinton Foundation investigation as a separate matter. But Sessions unequivocally assured senators of his intentions during his January 2017 confirmation hearings in response to a clear and specific question from the chair of the Senate Judiciary Committee, Sen. Chuck Grassley. Sen. Grassley asked a follow-up question that went right to the point. In response, Sessions very clearly said his recusal would cover any matters involving the Clinton Foundation."
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Hefaistos

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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #3214 on: March 17, 2018, 09:46:56 PM »
The Guardian reveals how Cambridge Analytica harvested Facebook data from 50 million americans to use in targeted messaging in the presidential election.
Whistleblower describes how firm linked to former Trump adviser Steve Bannon compiled user data to target American voters. Cambridge Analytica’s algorithms turned ‘likes’ into a political tool.

Look at their graphic. There you have the possible connection between CA and St. Petersburg based Internet Research Agency, in the form of Aleksandr Kogan. He is an associate professor at St Petersburg State University, and received grants from the Russian government to research Facebook users’ emotional states. And he is the guy who actually programmed and harvested data.
50 million profiles represented around a third of active North American Facebook users, and nearly a quarter of potential US voters.

Makes my hypothesis that this part of Russiagate actually is a Mercer/Bannon/CA-gate stronger. Maybe the 'Russian troll farm' was indeed an alt-right troll farm working to orders from US alt-right?

https://www.theguardian.com/news/2018/mar/17/cambridge-analytica-facebook-influence-us-election






« Last Edit: March 17, 2018, 10:03:26 PM by Hefaistos »

Neven

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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #3215 on: March 17, 2018, 09:58:27 PM »
Well, present a credible scenario and my mind is open.

I'm trying. Hard.  :)

Look, if Russian secret agents can pull this off, so can agents of other organisations. History is replete with examples of intelligence agencies doing this kind of stuff. We've been over the Novichok stuff, it's not an exclusive Russian nerve agent, per se. It could have been produced or procured by others. The fact that it so obviously points to Russia, speaks for the argument that this may be done to frame Russia (I'm not trying to invoke pity for Russia here, that's not the point).

I know that Russia is presented as some super-devious, efficient machine, but others are able to do this kind of stuff. Ukrainian secret service, CIA/MI6, Mossad, and so on. Even organisations for hire by the mob or whoever pays.

I'll go over motive again. The cui bono. Framing Russia would have benefits, as it would involve another international scandal, adding to a situation that is already hyper-sensitive due to Russiagate. This inevitably further isolates Russia. The perpetrators would have to know this, and so it has to be done on purpose.

I'm still not sure why Putin would consider it advantageous to further fan the flames, just to send out a message to potential traitors (as if he doesn't have a reputation already and people in the spying business don't know what can happen). However, it's possible that he has some ulterior, long-term plan. If we are going to accept this, we should also accept that other actors benefit from the current situation, and thus may have caused it.

And it could even be that Skripal simply pissed someone off in the spy world, as rumours have it he was still in the business (which is probably why he lived in Salisbury). Absolutely nothing is known about what Skripal has been doing and what he was involved in.

Quote
Offing a Russian double-agent by false-flag nerve gas is such a weak impetus for Cold War spending.  Honestly, not that many people care what happens to such an individual.

Yes, but as this thread shows, many people care about destroying Putin. If not calling for blood directly, a vast majority is all-in when it comes to an even tougher line, upping the ante, showing Imperial muscle.

If you want more military spending, it's all about influencing public opinion. While we're talking about this, people post all these scare stories - pushed by the likes of Rick effing Perry and four star war criminals - about how Russia is training hordes of nerds to destroy American infrastructure (they're everywhere), and so more money needs to be spent to counter this clear and present danger. Next year the Pentagon budget needs to be increased with at least three times the total Russian military budget. Just you dare vote against it or protest.

All around it's: Either you're with us or you're with the terrorists. I haven't forgotten the last time that happened. Have you?

Quote
Might be different if it happened on US soil.  There have to be former KGB agents in refuge in the US, such a killing here would be far more effective for stoking Cold War sentiment and spending.  Why not one of these?

Who knows what's next? They have to keep us in a constant state of agitation and fear, especially if not enough people are going along. Maybe a bomb with components traceable to Russia, or sabotage Western armaments to look like Russian actions?

I'm serious. Russia is the new Al Qaeda.

Quote
Note, I'm not being anti-Russia in any of this.  If the US had a problem of a steady stream of Edward Snowdens getting refuge in Moscow, and a couple ended up poisoned by exotic means,  I'd just as loudly point the finger at the CIA.  Same motives, same strategy, same analysis.

I'll keep that in mind.  ;D

Either way, this thing will only stop if there's a détente, and then a dialogue for de-escalation and disarmament. And AGW can't be solved without it. Nobody can afford wars or financial crashes at this point. It only makes the Trumps and Putins stronger.
« Last Edit: March 17, 2018, 10:04:37 PM by Neven »
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Alexander555

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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #3216 on: March 17, 2018, 10:20:31 PM »
The Guardian reveals how Cambridge Analytica harvested Facebook data from 50 million americans to use in targeted messaging in the presidential election.
Whistleblower describes how firm linked to former Trump adviser Steve Bannon compiled user data to target American voters. Cambridge Analytica’s algorithms turned ‘likes’ into a political tool.

Look at their graphic. There you have the possible connection between CA and St. Petersburg based Internet Research Agency, in the form of Aleksandr Kogan. He is an associate professor at St Petersburg State University, and received grants from the Russian government to research Facebook users’ emotional states. And he is the guy who actually programmed and harvested data.
50 million profiles represented around a third of active North American Facebook users, and nearly a quarter of potential US voters.

Makes my hypothesis that this part of Russiagate actually is a Mercer/Bannon/CA-gate stronger. Maybe the 'Russian troll farm' was indeed an alt-right troll farm working to orders from US alt-right?

https://www.theguardian.com/news/2018/mar/17/cambridge-analytica-facebook-influence-us-election



Why would these 50 million people not have an own opinion ? You realy think that garbage on Facebook makes their opinion. That there is nothing in their life to  base their opinion on. What would be more importand, how trusted is a digital election ? How do you know as a voter that the result is real ?  It's very simple, you don't. 

SteveMDFP

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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #3217 on: March 17, 2018, 10:34:28 PM »


I'm serious. Russia is the new Al Qaeda.

I think Putin's Russia is taking somewhat more desperate steps because his miscalculations have led to a more desperate situation.  While he enjoys strong domestic support, a cratering economy can rapidly reverse his standing.

I believe he underestimated the economic consequences of annexing Crimea.  I think he underestimated the risk of election meddling (however inconsequential the efforts on the outcome), and overestimated Trump's ability to dismantle sanctions in the face of kompromat on Trump.

I'd interpret the hacking alarms here as possibly genuine, and Putin's motivation for ramping up the *capacity* to launch a cyber attack as a deterrent to US aggression.  "Attack me, and your nuclear plants may go critical.  So don't try it."  I'd view that as rational strategy on his part.

The hacking alarms make for weak Cold Warrior strategy.  You don't counter an army of hackers with tanks and ships.  You counter them with your own hackers.  That's not the kind of effort that gives a Cold Warrior a hard-on.

Meanwhile, what Putin *really* needs is higher prices for oil and natural gas.  So I wonder if he could have a hand in the blockade of Qatar, which is otherwise difficult to understand.  And he'd perhaps encourage Trump to attack Iran. That kind of hot war would dramatically increase the price of oil. If Trump fears Putin on a personal level (and I think he should), stoking war with Iran seems a way to appease that personal threat. 

War with Iran would strengthen the power, authority, and security of *both* Trump and Putin.  And it would be far worse for the world than a renewed Cold War (assuming it stayed Cold). 

The Ayatollah is the new Al Qaeda.

sidd

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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #3218 on: March 17, 2018, 10:38:36 PM »
Re: stupidity of military-industrial complex

They are not stupid. Iraq for example. The made serious coin from one of the greatest strategic blunders ever made. Killing Skripal and laying a russian trail benefits warmongers.

sidd

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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #3219 on: March 17, 2018, 10:56:39 PM »
Re: stupidity of military-industrial complex

They are not stupid. Iraq for example. The made serious coin from one of the greatest strategic blunders ever made. Killing Skripal and laying a russian trail benefits warmongers.

sidd

The death of a Russian double-agent won't rattle a single saber.
But it will silence a legion of would-be informants.

Steve

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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #3220 on: March 17, 2018, 11:15:27 PM »
Re: stupidity of military-industrial complex

They are not stupid. Iraq for example. The made serious coin from one of the greatest strategic blunders ever made. Killing Skripal and laying a russian trail benefits warmongers.

sidd
Ramen!
If Occam's razor is pointed, this is what it's pointing at. 8)


Has anyone noticed that the Syrian forces recently captured a chemical weapons facility with American manufactured hardware? Western forces knew that this message would get out, even though none of the invited MSM showed up to cover the event, but Skripal has captured the news cycle anyway.


How very convenient.
Terry
https://www.rt.com/op-ed/421515-ghouta-syria-chemical-weapons/

Hefaistos

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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #3221 on: March 17, 2018, 11:50:07 PM »
Also, to put the Skripal assassination attempt into perspective :

Assad has just launched the 4th chemical attack on his own citizens in Eastern Ghouta this year alone :

https://www.bellingcat.com/news/mena/2018/03/15/syrian-forces-bombard-eastern-ghouta-chemical-weapons-fourth-consecutive-time-since-beginning-2018/

This attack was apparently fully approved by the Russian Defense Ministry, since they announced it on the same day.

Rob, welcome to visit one of the jihadists groups chem labs, complete with US equipment. See RT link below. (Thanks Terry for providing the link)

Bellingcat is mainly an anti-Russian propaganda outlet, what they report is biased.

There are three main rebel groups in Ghouta. They are salafists, jihadists. They are not ISIS, but still rightly classified as terrorists. We in the West should be grateful that they are now eradicated.

https://www.rt.com/op-ed/421515-ghouta-syria-chemical-weapons/

SteveMDFP

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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #3222 on: March 17, 2018, 11:59:32 PM »


Has anyone noticed that the Syrian forces recently captured a chemical weapons facility with American manufactured hardware? Western forces knew that this message would get out, even though none of the invited MSM showed up to cover the event, but Skripal has captured the news cycle anyway.


How very convenient.
Terry
https://www.rt.com/op-ed/421515-ghouta-syria-chemical-weapons/

RT as a source?

Well, I certainly wouldn't put it past the Saudi's to supply al-Nusra with chemical weapons.  That would be consistent with other reporting from earlier in the Syrian conflict.

But that US equipment?  Hill-Rom makes *medical* equipment.  Hospital beds, newborn incubators, and air compressors for hospital use.  That picture in the RT article is a fair match for Hill-Rom surplus hospital equipment:
http://www.herbs-auctions.com/auction_details.php?name=Used-HillRom-MedPlus-Medical-Air-System--Part-69169030206A&auction_id=156950

If you (or RT) are trying to imply that the CIA assisted with such efforts, then the CIA is doing a very poor job indeed.  Medical air compressors are quite unlikely to hold up to corrosive effects of chlorine, or any kind of rough handling.  Maybe they were using it to operate pneumatic tools.  Maybe the sad bottles on the shelf were pesticides for the fields.  Hard to view this article as persuasive about anything.

TerryM

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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #3223 on: March 18, 2018, 12:58:59 AM »
Probably an attempt to save their fields from marauding swarms of monarch butterflies. - or perhaps their local swimming pool service used the site to run their pneumatic tools.  ::)


Terry


BTW, did you check the author's resume? Not bad for RT.



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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #3224 on: March 18, 2018, 01:05:22 AM »
"The death of a Russian double-agent won't rattle a single saber"

Disagreed.  The murder attempt has already empowered the russia hawks and cold warriors. Here's one shill who has been beating russia wardrum for a while. Now he has more ammunition and might even get some more toys.

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2018/jan/22/does-the-uk-really-need-to-increase-its-defence-spending-russia



sidd


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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #3225 on: March 18, 2018, 01:17:36 AM »
Probably an attempt to save their fields from marauding swarms of monarch butterflies. - or perhaps their local swimming pool service used the site to run their pneumatic tools.  ::)


Terry


BTW, did you check the author's resume? Not bad for RT.

Well, yeah.  But no dateline on the article, no indication she was anywhere near the place.  The piece seems to be recycled from SANA, the Syrian Arab News Agency.  Much like the SputnikNews  article:
https://sputniknews.com/middleeast/201803151062549525-syrian-army-militants-plant-chemical-weapons/

I wouldn't trust SANA any more than I'd trust a Saudi source.  The only piece of the article I can halfway intelligently comment on (the medical equipment) doesn't fit with this being any kind of munitions facility, it does fit with distorted reporting, that's about it.

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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #3226 on: March 18, 2018, 01:22:14 AM »
America's finest news source on Facebook's war on fake news:

"by making the inaccurate stories on the social media site actually happen"

“For example, if you read about high-level Democrats running a child sex ring out of the basement of a D.C.-area pizzeria, we will go to that restaurant, dig a basement if there isn’t one already, and get that human-trafficking operation up and running. That’s how dedicated we are to factual accuracy at Facebook.”

"reportedly corrected those mistakes by ordering its in-house team of assassins to kill Kirk Douglas, Bob Barker, Robert Redford, Carlos Santana, Paul McCartney, Jackie Chan, Mark McGrath, and others."

https://www.theonion.com/facebook-announces-plan-to-combat-fake-news-stories-by-1823836038

sidd
« Last Edit: March 18, 2018, 04:24:27 AM by sidd »

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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #3227 on: March 18, 2018, 01:24:53 AM »
This is almost believable: America's finest new source details Mueller closing in on Trump Organization finances:

" they are beginning to perceive the full scope of the secretive business dealings ... namely the Dairy Queen just down Marshall Hill Road from the paintball supply shop "

" Trump did briefly own a minor share of a Pizza Hut on Long Island, but it apparently went bankrupt in 1997."

https://politics.theonion.com/subpoenaed-trump-organization-financial-documents-revea-1823839116

sidd
« Last Edit: March 18, 2018, 04:24:56 AM by sidd »

AbruptSLR

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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #3228 on: March 18, 2018, 04:20:20 AM »
Rep. Swalwell sits on one of the committees investigating Trump

Rep. Eric Swalwell Retweeted Donald J. Trump after Trump had McCabe fired:

"Gloat now, but you will be fired soon. And it’s not going to be done cowardly, as you’ve done to so many who’ve served you. There’s a storm gathering, Mr. President, and it’s going to wipe out you and your corrupt organization all the way down to the studs."
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pileus

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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #3229 on: March 18, 2018, 04:50:07 AM »
😲😲😲

Rob Dekker

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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #3230 on: March 18, 2018, 08:17:51 AM »
Bellingcat is mainly an anti- exposing Russian propaganda outlet, what they report is biased verified.

See. Fixed that for you.

As opposed to MSM, Bellingcat uses open source journalism. That means that they use evidence that is publicly available to anyone to verify. That is the exact OPPOSITE of propaganda.
Bellingcat used that not just to show the truth about Assad's chemical weapons use against his own people, and not just to track down the BUK that shot down MH17 to the 53rd BUK brigade in Kursk, Russia, but also to expose the many, many lies that Russia used to sell its dirty war in Ukraine and Syria to the Russian people.

Here are some examples of the many Russian lies (about Ukraine, MH17 and Syria) that Bellingcat exposed :
https://www.bellingcat.com/news/uk-and-europe/2018/02/10/truth-behind-russian-embassy-netherlands-russias-strength-truth-branding-proposal/

I challenge you to challenge ANY one of these facts. Just even ONE would do.

Here is a sample : Putin himself showing Roger Stone how Russia is fighting ISIS in Syria, while in fact he is showing US footage from Afghanistan :



Russia lies. Time and again. And then again.

I have no idea why you keep on defending Russia's dirty war in Ukraine and Syria with yet more lies.

[edit] Hack, there is even a web site about it :
http://www.russialies.com/
« Last Edit: March 18, 2018, 08:30:52 AM by Rob Dekker »
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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #3231 on: March 18, 2018, 09:05:35 AM »
Regarding the nerve agent attack in the UK, there is really no doubt that Russia was the cause.
I see that Neven is going in circles here, since all the arguments he brings up have been addressed already :

Neven said :
Quote
As A-Team has explained, it isn't that difficult to make Novichok,
It was not actually A-team who said that. It was an anonymous commenter on a blog site named "Milkshaken" who made that statement.
I discussed the facts here :
https://forum.arctic-sea-ice.net/index.php/topic,1974.msg145865.html#msg145865

Novichok is not easy to make. Here are some experts statements :

Quote
As far as I know, I don't know anybody who knows how to make it except these guys in Russia," says Dan Kaszeta, a chemical weapons expert with Strongpoint Security in London. "They've been a deep, dark secret."

and here :
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2018/mar/14/nerve-agent-novichok-produced-russia-site-expert
Quote
The nerve agent novichok was developed and produced in Shikhany, home of a military research establishment in central Russia, according to a chemical weapons expert. Hamish de Bretton-Gordon said the information was contained in a report submitted several years ago by Russia to the international body that monitors chemical weapons, the Organisation for the Prohibition of Chemical Weapons (OPCW).

Also, as I explained yesterday, it is very unlikely that Novichok was developed anywhere in the free world, since that would involve a conspiracy theory including a secret lab unknown to Congress, since we were all trying to get rid of these weapons. Not develop new ones.

And also, as I explained yesterday, and as Steve emphasized, there is no "plausible" alternative theory. Neven's last one :

Quote
We all agree that Russia is a pretty corrupt country, right? This means that it's entirely possible that some Novichok was sold on some kind of black market, either to Russian criminals, or some intelligence organisation, or another country. Putin wouldn't have to know about this. I know he is portrayed as some evil mastermind who controls everything in Russia (vehemently denied by Russian activists), but I really don't believe he is omniscient and all-powerful, or there'd be a lot less corruption.

Well, if Putin did not know about it, he would clearly state that the Russian state was NOT involved in this attack. But he did not say that. He said that the UK should "investigate".

And if the Russian government was not involved why did Lavrov state :
Quote
Sergey V. Lavrov, Russia’s foreign minister, an anchor on Russia’s state-controlled news broadcast struck a different note, warning Russians not to betray their country. If they do, he said, “Don’t choose Britain as a place to live.

I mean, can he be any more clear ?
« Last Edit: March 18, 2018, 09:11:14 AM by Rob Dekker »
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idunno

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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #3232 on: March 18, 2018, 02:49:40 PM »
The best reporting so far on the Skripal case, from der Spiegel, from a team of 12 journalists with no apparent axe to grind...

http://www.spiegel.de/international/world/nerve-agent-attack-in-england-escalates-tensions-with-russia-a-1198451.html

AbruptSLR

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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #3233 on: March 18, 2018, 02:51:12 PM »
Here is a tweet from John Brennan (former head of the CIA) to J. Trump:

"When the full extent of your venality, moral turpitude, and political corruption becomes known, you will take your rightful place as a disgraced demagogue in the dustbin of history. You may scapegoat Andy McCabe, but you will  not destroy America...America will triumph over you."
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AbruptSLR

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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #3234 on: March 18, 2018, 03:04:06 PM »
Among other things, the linked New York Times article indicates that as part of the negotiations to interview Trump, Mueller has sent written questions to Trump (and theoretically Trump's written responses would be subject to follow-up questions at the face to face interview).  Probably Trump has been unnerved by the nature of Mueller's written questions:

Title: "Trump Lawyer Says Special Counsel Inquiry Should Be Ended"

https://www.nytimes.com/2018/03/17/us/politics/trump-mueller-dowd.html

Extract: "The president’s tweets, posted on a Saturday in which he remained inside the White House with no public schedule, came as Mr. Mueller is said to have sent questions to Mr. Trump’s legal team as part of negotiations over an interview with the president. Mr. Mueller is seeking the interview, according to two people close to the White House, in order to ask follow-up questions, but put forward the list as a start."
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Alexander555

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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #3235 on: March 18, 2018, 03:08:34 PM »
That they all come out of a stinking cesspool, that's for sure. So what is the word of these man worth. Absolutely nothing.

Neven

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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #3236 on: March 18, 2018, 03:27:26 PM »
Here is a tweet from John Brennan (former head of the CIA) to J. Trump:

"When the full extent of your venality, moral turpitude, and political corruption becomes known, you will take your rightful place as a disgraced demagogue in the dustbin of history. You may scapegoat Andy McCabe, but you will  not destroy America...America will triumph over you."

Too bad Al Capone and Charles Manson are dead. I'm sure their tweets would be awesome as well.
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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #3237 on: March 18, 2018, 03:37:29 PM »
One book could be enough to bring in a couple millions. And some juicy tweets can help the case.

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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #3238 on: March 18, 2018, 03:46:10 PM »
At least we now know that former CIA leaders, at least, show no signs of bias.


Terry
BTW - Strongpoint Security is a CIA front run by a longtime operative. We might assume their confirmation of Russia as the source of the nerve agent matches the CIA's official stance. This makes sense as the MIC has already been noted to be one of the beneficiaries of this turmoil.
Even disinformation can be useful. 8)


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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #3239 on: March 18, 2018, 05:05:10 PM »
For ten months Trump followed Congressional leadership advice not to impede Mueller's investigation directly, so Trump work around the edges.  But now that Mueller is so close that he has given Trump written questions that have unnerved Trump; Trump has decided to confront Mueller by threatening/undermining Rosenstein for starting the Russiagate investigation:

Title: "For first time, Trump aims at Mueller"

https://www.politico.com/story/2018/03/18/trump-mueller-mccabe-russia-probe-469757

Extract: "For 10 months, President Donald Trump and his team abided by a simple rule: Don’t go after special counsel Robert Mueller.

But this weekend, as he digested news that the probe into Russian interference in the 2016 election was circling nearer to him and his family, Trump came closer than ever to abandoning his unspoken truce with Mueller, reigniting fears among Republicans that the president could fire the special counsel.
...
Trump’s comments come after his lawyer, John Dowd, on Saturday urged Deputy Attorney General Rod Rosenstein to shutter Mueller’s investigation. Dowd reportedly first told The Daily Beast he was speaking in his capacity as Trump’s lawyer, but later backtracked, insisting he was only speaking for himself."
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AbruptSLR

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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #3240 on: March 18, 2018, 07:46:15 PM »
Sessions commits perjury for the second time:

Title: "Jeff Sessions may have just been caught committing perjury for the second time"

https://thinkprogress.org/jeff-sessions-may-have-just-been-caught-committing-perjury-for-the-second-time-d75e49650562/

Extract: "Late Friday, Attorney General Jefferson Beauregard Sessions III announced former Deputy FBI Director Andrew McCabe was fired due to a lack of candor regarding his conduct during an FBI probe into former presidential candidate Hillary Clinton. “The F.B.I. expects every employee to adhere to the highest standards of honesty, integrity and accountability,” Sessions said, regarding the firing, adding “I have terminated the employment of Andrew McCabe effective immediately.”

Yet, if Sessions were to apply this same standard to himself, he may not have a job very much longer. Reuters reported that Sessions may have lied under oath regarding his role in determining whether the Trump campaign should have colluded with the Russian government. This is the second time Sessions faced allegations that he lied under oath regarding both his conduct as a member of the Trump campaign and his approach to the Russian government."
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TerryM

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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #3241 on: March 18, 2018, 08:17:58 PM »
AFAIK Jeff Sessions is not at present a member of the FBI. ;D

“The F.B.I. expects every employee to adhere to the highest standards of honesty, integrity and accountability,” Sessions said,

It might be a bit too much to ask the AG to adhere to such lofty standards. As I recall, some of the former holders of that office were lacking in all of those virtues.
My personal favorite was the one that draped Lady Justice's exposed boob, indicating that at least one person in the room was indeed a boob.

Jeff appears lost in the 70's, searching for the Devil's Weed in every pipe. If I was Tommy Chong I might think about heading back to Canada. 8)


Terry

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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #3242 on: March 18, 2018, 08:25:06 PM »
Fortunately, it's sometimes okay to lie under oath. America will triumph!  ;)
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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #3243 on: March 19, 2018, 12:04:02 AM »
I much appreciated the Paul Jay op-ed posted above, and hope he's correct about there being little or no chance of a deliberate nuclear attack.


The present beating of the drums is all too familiar to my ears, dating back at least as far as MSM's vilification of Danial Ortega. This all too often is a prelude to war. War in this case means taking on the only power that may possibly outgun the US WRT nuclear armament.


What happened to the MAD doctrine that served so well during Cold War I?


I don't know if Russia's delivery systems are better than ours. I don't know if the latest Russian missiles can evade our Star-wars defenses. I do know that it won't take thousands of nukes to destroy humanity, a handful would probably suffice, and I'm not sure that it matters much where they are detonated.


The Berlin wall was gone by 1990, so unless you were born before 1980 you have no understanding of the effects of living in the constant knowledge that everything could be blown up as you sleep, while you drive to work, or perhaps during a weekend at the beach with your family.
No wonder Valium was so popular - mother's little helper.


My wife lived in Las Vegas, back when mushroom clouds could be seen from the Strip. She was employed at that time by the EPA, and stayed close to her desk. All of her fellow employees, the ones out in the field monitoring the tests, were dead long before we moved to Canada.
For those still unaware, Sunrise Mountain, the one that marks the eastern border of Las Vegas is hollow - and filled with lots of armed nukes. Bunches more in Orange County California, just south of Los Angeles.
It hasn't been a secret for decades.


Those NATO nations who signed on to encircle Russia won't need to worry about how to feed their populous in the months following the Boom. Perhaps Nevil Shute was right all those decades ago when he wrote of the Aussies being the last to go. 


What does the above have to do with Russiagate? Damn near everything.


We're accusing Putin of crimes that are impossible to defend against. Demanding that he turn a whole province of Russians over to a government whose troops sing songs of putting them all to the knife.


The latest outrage is that we demand that he explain why he killed a former spy, without offering any evidence that he did so.


It's a very, very dangerous game that we're playing. Trump offered us a way out by running on a platform of normalizing relations with Russia - and drawing back American troops around the world. - Then we dumped on him every time he smiled in Putin's direction & gave him a standing ovation when he fired missiles into Syria.


Are you out of your collective minds?
Terry


sidd

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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #3244 on: March 19, 2018, 12:57:05 AM »

AbruptSLR

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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #3245 on: March 19, 2018, 01:55:40 AM »
I think the Mueller should be prepared to indict Jeff Sessions before too long:

Title: "Exclusive: Sources contradict Sessions' testimony he opposed Russia outreach"

https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/politics/exclusive-sources-contradict-sessions-testimony-he-opposed-russia-outreach/ar-BBKnUuQ?ocid=spartandhp

Extract: "U.S. Attorney General Jeff Sessions' testimony that he opposed a proposal for President Donald Trump's 2016 campaign team to meet with Russians has been contradicted by three people who told Reuters they have spoken about the matter to investigators with Special Counsel Robert Mueller or congressional committees."
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SteveMDFP

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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #3246 on: March 19, 2018, 02:35:19 AM »
   
Why were they not dead before leaving the pizza joint, if Novichok – the deadliest known nerve agent poison known to man, 10x more powerful than a locomotive - was used directly on them?

Why was no one else in that Pub or Pizza shop dead then and there or still in hospital now?
 

There's a serious misconception here.  Any and all toxins are harmless at sufficiently low dosage.  Even the most non-toxic substance will kill at a sufficiently high dosage--even oxygen or water.

Absent reporting on measured absorbed dose, it's impossible to dismiss the press accounts of the nature of the toxin based on mortality, whatever the type of toxin. 

However, one might presume that characteristic symptoms of a nerve agent were present in the victims.  Finding chemical traces of a nerve agent would then be diagnostic.

I believe one of the responding officers was hospitalized.  Assuming his symptoms were characteristic, this would tend to confirm the diagnosis of poisoning by nerve agent.

I don't think those broadly accepting the official account are the ones being swayed by prior bias.


idunno

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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #3247 on: March 19, 2018, 08:16:03 AM »
No, Thomas, no sarcasm was intended. Der Spiegel reports a lot of the known facts and background, which also allows for a critique such as yours; large parts of which I'd agree with.

Rob Dekker

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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #3248 on: March 19, 2018, 08:24:50 AM »
I'll tell you why. Because it was not *Novichok*
..
That ends my contribution to this topic.

Thank you. You made your point.

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-britain-russia-agent/uk-seeks-independent-verification-of-nerve-agent-used-in-attack-on-spy-idUSKCN1GS1F4

Quote
Britain has written to the Organization for the Prohibition of Chemical Weapons (OPCW) to arrange external verification of a military-grade nerve toxin used to attack a Russian double agent, Prime Minister Theresa May’s spokesman said on Friday.

Let's see what comes out of that.

[edit] From the Spiegel article :
"Mirzayanov says he's certain that the Kremlin was behind the attack on Sergei Skripal. "

[edit 2] Another one bites the dust :
Putin critic found dead at London home was MURDERED: Nikolai Glushkov was strangled, say police. The body of Nikolai Glushkov was discovered by his family and friends late on Monday night, aged 68.
https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/murder-probe-death-russian-dissident-12201119
« Last Edit: March 19, 2018, 08:47:54 AM by Rob Dekker »
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SteveMDFP

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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #3249 on: March 19, 2018, 10:34:18 AM »
the diagnosis of poisoning by nerve agent.

Is not the same as claiming it is Novichok, which is what has occurred (isn't it?); and that only Russia Govt could have r would have done it (isn't it?).

Steve you're trying to argue against something I never said in the first place. No where have I denied a nerve agent was or might have been used. The details matter Steve, a lot, including the details of what I actually said versus what I didn't say. 

So you're prepared to agree the attempt was by nerve agent, but you dispute the stated identity of the *particular* nerve agent?    Seems bizarre that you can claim to exclude classes of nerve agents from so far away.

Maybe you missed the long discussion on this point.  Yes, the FSB *would* use an exotic toxin if the primary reason for offing the guy was to deter would-be informants from divulging information to the West.