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Buddy

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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #3300 on: March 22, 2018, 05:24:58 PM »
Traitor Don is shaking up his legal team.  Of course....this comes after just one week ago, he said he wasn't doing this.  Par for the course.  ;)

What is of note...is who TURNED DOWN Traitor Don.  Ted Olson.... one of the most well known and respected attorneys in the country.  And someone who has experience in front of the Supreme Court (Gore v Bush.....he was on Gore's side, even though Ted is a Republican).

https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/trump-legal-team-seeks-to-add-gravitas-with-offer-to-star-gop-attorney-theodore-b-olson/2018/03/20/571f1e46-2c41-11e8-8ad6-fbc50284fce8_story.html

I said several months ago that there will be a challenge or two brought to the Supreme Court before this is all over.... and that is the type of attorney that Donnie may be looking for.

John Dowd WAS the lead legal criminal defense attorney.  I have no idea who he is going to replace him with on the criminal side.

I fully expect that Trump is going to be charged with CRIMINAL CHARGES while in office (more on this later)....so we have a lot of legal ocean in front of us. 
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litesong

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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #3301 on: March 22, 2018, 06:11:45 PM »
Treasonous Trump....
Sounds like you're for impeachment of "don'T rump". "don'T rump" told us not to vote for him. It's in his name.

AbruptSLR

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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #3302 on: March 22, 2018, 06:12:53 PM »
Those who do not think that Russiagate has much to do with climate science denial would do well to read the linked SkS article:

Title: "Web of Power: Cambridge Analytica and the Climate Science Denial Network Lobbying for Brexit and Trump"

https://www.skepticalscience.com/web-of-power-cambridge-analytica.html

Extract: " It has been a heck of a few days in the spotlight for Cambridge Analytica — a ‘political consultancy’ that confesses it likes to operate in the shadows.

Revelations continue to emerge about its practices, including allegations of illegal use of Facebook data and corrupting foreign elections.

While the company denies any illegal behaviour, what we do know is that it has been behind seismic political shocks on both sides of the Atlantic: Brexit, and the election of Donald Trump.

Tied to those is a climate science denial agenda that seeks to slash regulation, and line the pockets of those with a vested interest in fossil fuels.

This map shows how Cambridge Analytica lies at the heart of a network of operatives pushing climate science denial in the name of Brexit and Trump:"
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Buddy

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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #3303 on: March 22, 2018, 06:17:25 PM »
Quote
The rats are deserting Trump's sinking ship:

Who is going to be last off the ship:  Melania....Baron.... Or Terry?  ;)
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AbruptSLR

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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #3304 on: March 22, 2018, 07:11:12 PM »
While more evidence may be required to prove (beyond a reasonable doubt) that Russia was behind the Skripal poisoning, the linked article discusses some of the evidence that points at the Kremlin:

Title: "Fact Check: Is There 'Literally No Evidence' Russia Was Behind the Skripal Poisoning?"

http://www.weeklystandard.com/fact-check-is-there-literally-no-evidence-russia-was-behind-the-skripal-poisoning/article/2012021

Extract: "The is definitely evidence."
“It is not the strongest or the most intelligent who will survive but those who can best manage change.”
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TerryM

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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #3305 on: March 22, 2018, 08:12:48 PM »
While more evidence may be required to prove (beyond a reasonable doubt) that Russia was behind the Skripal poisoning, the linked article discusses some of the evidence that points at the Kremlin:

Title: "Fact Check: Is There 'Literally No Evidence' Russia Was Behind the Skripal Poisoning?"

http://www.weeklystandard.com/fact-check-is-there-literally-no-evidence-russia-was-behind-the-skripal-poisoning/article/2012021

Extract: "The is definitely evidence."

Just what was this "evidence"?


The author makes a bold statement, then offers nothing.


Hopefully the author's contention that the Novichoks were "developed in Russia in the 1970's and 80's to attack NATO troops" isn't the "fact" he is counting on. That ignores the fact that Novichoks were developed and tested in Nukus Uzbekistan, and possibly adds mind reading to May's accomplishments.


The author aims his arguments against a fairly substantial straw man who blogs from Oregon, while ignoring the ambassador to Uzbekistan's rather extensive comments on the matter.


I apparently have but 2 reads left before I'll be blocked from the Weekly Standard. I won't miss the read if this is typical of their journalism.


Terry

AbruptSLR

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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #3306 on: March 22, 2018, 10:04:34 PM »
It is a sad to realize that a large part of the media and of the public think that it is reasonable to assume that Donald Trump is preparing to go to war with Robert Mueller.  For this to be reasonable, either Trump is as guilty as sin, or the USA, and Mueller, are both controlled by some nefarious/hypothetical 'Deep State'.

Extract: "John Dowd’s Fall May Mean That Robert Mueller Is Next to Go"

https://www.newyorker.com/news/daily-comment/john-dowds-fall-may-mean-that-robert-mueller-is-next-to-go

Extract: "John Dowd’s resignation as Donald Trump’s personal attorney is another marker that the President is moving toward a war footing against Robert Mueller, the special counsel. Mueller’s mandate encompasses possible Russian interference in the 2016 Presidential election, and also certain other crimes he comes across in the course of that inquiry. It can be hard to know which part of this angers Trump the most. But Dowd’s departure substantially increases the chances that the President will move to fire Mueller—perhaps very soon."
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Neven

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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #3307 on: March 22, 2018, 10:07:42 PM »
It is a sad to realize that a large part of the media and of the public think that it is reasonable to assume that Donald Trump is preparing to go to war with Robert Mueller.  For this to be reasonable, either Trump is as guilty as sin, or the USA, and Mueller, are both controlled by some nefarious/hypothetical 'Deep State'.

Or both. Either way, it's dominating everyone's attention.
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AbruptSLR

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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #3308 on: March 22, 2018, 11:33:43 PM »
It is my opinion that Alan Dershowitz's logic regarding the Mueller investigation is flawed for reasons including:

- Dershowitz is to claim that the Russiagate investigation is an example of "criminalizing political differences, as Mueller is appointed by the DOJ which is answerable to laws; and not by Congress which is answerable to popular opinion/politics.  Thus Mueller's actions are governed by the law and not politics.

- Donald Trump is not free to fire Mueller directly, because as Trump is under investigation if he were to be able to fire Mueller directly, then there would be no rule of law in this country.  Currently, to get at Mueller, Trump must go through Rosenstein; and if Trump removes Rosenstein without cause, we will either be headed to a Constitutional crises that will either lead to Congress defending rule by law, or to Congress allowing strongman rule in the USA.

- Dershowitz is also claiming that Team Trump would not be prosecuted for crimes uncovered by Mueller because the investigation was started for partisan motives.  However, the FISA courts do not believe that they authorized the FBI to investigate 2016 campaign irregularities for partisan motives, and the Mueller investigation resulted from the FBI investigation when Trump fired Comey.

- The fact that other crimes have been committed in the 2016 campaign (say by Clinton) that the FBI (nor Mueller) are not currently investigating is no reason to stop the Mueller investigation.  Rather if Dershowitz/Trump have sufficient evidence of other wrong doings they are legally required to report such evidence to the appropriate jurisdiction.

Title: "Trump Hits Again at Mueller, Invoking Dershowitz's Support"

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2018-03-21/trump-quotes-harvard-law-professor-in-critique-of-mueller

Extract: "President Donald Trump returned to criticisms of the special counsel investigating Russian election meddling Wednesday, this time quoting Alan Dershowitz on Fox News mounting a vigorous attack on Robert Mueller, saying he never should have been appointed and that there was no evidence of a crime.

“Special Council is told to find crimes, whether crimes exist or not. I was opposed the the selection of Mueller to be Special Council, I still am opposed to it. I think President Trump was right when he said there never should have been a Special Council appointed," Trump said on Twitter, quoting the former Harvard law professor."
“It is not the strongest or the most intelligent who will survive but those who can best manage change.”
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AbruptSLR

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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #3309 on: March 22, 2018, 11:43:20 PM »
It is a sad to realize that a large part of the media and of the public think that it is reasonable to assume that Donald Trump is preparing to go to war with Robert Mueller.  For this to be reasonable, either Trump is as guilty as sin, or the USA, and Mueller, are both controlled by some nefarious/hypothetical 'Deep State'.

Or both. Either way, it's dominating everyone's attention.

For both to be possible probably requires a dynamic definition of the "Deep State" that changes from moment to moment and with one's point of view; while a good part of the reason that Russiagate is dominating everyone's attention is that Trump is playing the media like a guitar by making ridiculous statements and tweets also everyday.  In my opinion, the public should demand that Congress safeguard the Mueller investigation thus allowing it to proceed out of everyone's attention until the findings are produced.  Unfortunately, the GOP controlled Congress is not adequately protecting Mueller from Trump numerous attempts to obstruct justice, and thus the resistance is justified in raising this matter into the public eye.

Edit, also see my comments in Reply #3320 as to why the DOJ initiated Mueller investigation is not political; while I freely admit that the resistance is political because the GOP-controlled Congress's failure to adequately defend Mueller is also political.
« Last Edit: March 22, 2018, 11:51:59 PM by AbruptSLR »
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Buddy

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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #3310 on: March 23, 2018, 12:01:29 AM »
Now that McMaster is now out as of tonight.... Donnie continues to 86 those not loyal to him.  Mattis must be getting pretty lonely right now.

Super Neocon John Bolton is replacing McMaster.  I guess that the National Security Advisor position does NOT have to be OK'd by the Senate.

Two things:

1)  Expect more shakeup in the administration.  Boloton is a real war monger.... there is NOBODY that likes a war (ANY WAR) more than John Bolton.

2)  As I have ALWAYS said.... Mueller will eventually be 86'd.  In a BEST SCENARIO.... he would be immediately rehired by the Senate.... but that is a BEST CASE SCENARIO.

Remember: Donnie wants what Vladi has..... and Donnie has to have more power to do that.  He will try to get it...one way or another.

Now what will be interesting.... is what McMaster and Tillerson say now that they are "unshackled".   Will they pass along anything of value to journalists or Mueller?

And Bolton would LOVE to start a fight with Iran.... which Bibi and Donnie will be wanting to do as well.




   
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AbruptSLR

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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #3311 on: March 23, 2018, 03:18:59 AM »
Details of Russian involvement in hacking the DNC appears to be coming into focus:

Title: "EXCLUSIVE: ‘Lone DNC Hacker’ Guccifer 2.0 Slipped Up and Revealed He Was a Russian Intelligence Officer"

https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/politics/exclusive-‘lone-dnc-hacker’-guccifer-20-slipped-up-and-revealed-he-was-a-russian-intelligence-officer/ar-BBKAawP?ocid=spartandhp

Extract: "Guccifer 2.0, the “lone hacker” who took credit for providing WikiLeaks with stolen emails from the Democratic National Committee, was in fact an officer of Russia’s military intelligence directorate (GRU), The Daily Beast has learned. It’s an attribution that resulted from a fleeting but critical slip-up in GRU tradecraft."
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AbruptSLR

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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #3312 on: March 23, 2018, 03:49:18 AM »
Molly Schweickert is Cambridge Analytica's Global Head of Digital, and in 2017 she said that Cambridge Analytica had access to early 'absentee ballot returns'.  Either she misspoke, or she admitted that Cambridge Analytica was engaging in illegal activities while supporting Trump's 2016 campaign:

Title: "Cambridge Analytica - The Video"

https://medium.com/@unhackthevote/cambridge-analytica-the-video-937e6c15dc7

Extract: "Here is a very interesting video of a presentation made in 2017 by Molly Schweickert, Cambridge Analytica’s Global Head of Digital.

In the video she describes the details of Cambridge Analytica’s triumphant Trump campaign marketing venture.

Someone asks her: When were you sure that your campaign was success and he would win the campaign? Let’s see what she says:
...
Particularly in the final weeks leading up to the election, once we started to get some absentee ballot returns coming in ..."
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sidd

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Rob Dekker

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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #3314 on: March 23, 2018, 04:30:50 AM »
Details of Russian involvement in hacking the DNC appears to be coming into focus:

Title: "EXCLUSIVE: ‘Lone DNC Hacker’ Guccifer 2.0 Slipped Up and Revealed He Was a Russian Intelligence Officer"

https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/politics/exclusive-‘lone-dnc-hacker’-guccifer-20-slipped-up-and-revealed-he-was-a-russian-intelligence-officer/ar-BBKAawP?ocid=spartandhp

Extract: "Guccifer 2.0, the “lone hacker” who took credit for providing WikiLeaks with stolen emails from the Democratic National Committee, was in fact an officer of Russia’s military intelligence directorate (GRU), The Daily Beast has learned. It’s an attribution that resulted from a fleeting but critical slip-up in GRU tradecraft."

Oh. This is big. Turns out US intelligence agencies were right all along.

Guccifer 2.0 was a Russian GRU officer and not a lone Romanian hacker after all.

This is how they found out :

Quote
Ehmke led an investigation at ThreatConnect that tried to track down Guccifer from the metadata in his emails. But the trail always ended at the same data center in France. Ehmke eventually uncovered that Guccifer was connecting through an anonymizing service called Elite VPN, a virtual private networking service that had an exit point in France but was headquartered in Russia.

But on one occasion, The Daily Beast has learned, Guccifer failed to activate the VPN client before logging on. As a result, he left a real, Moscow-based Internet Protocol address in the server logs of an American social media company, according to a source familiar with the government’s Guccifer investigation. Twitter and WordPress were Guccifer 2.0’s favored outlets. Neither company would comment for this story, and Guccifer did not respond to a direct message on Twitter.

Working off the IP address, U.S. investigators identified Guccifer 2.0 as a particular GRU officer working out of the agency’s headquarters on Grizodubovoy Street in Moscow. (The Daily Beast’s sources did not disclose which particular officer worked as Guccifer.)
« Last Edit: March 23, 2018, 05:34:30 AM by Rob Dekker »
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sidd

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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #3315 on: March 23, 2018, 05:17:18 AM »
Re: Guccifer 2 IP address

Anyone have the IP ? i would like to verify that the IP is not just a Tor exit node in Moscow. DHS was classifying russian tor exit nodes as russian hackers.

https://theintercept.com/2017/01/04/the-u-s-government-thinks-thousands-of-russian-hackers-are-reading-my-blog-they-arent/

sidd

TerryM

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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #3316 on: March 23, 2018, 08:30:12 AM »
I'd been convinced that Guccifer 2 was an NSA creation. Clearly the NSA could never make use of a Moscow IP, so I'll need to rethink everything. ::)


Terry

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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #3317 on: March 23, 2018, 08:36:42 AM »
Re: Guccifer 2 IP address

Anyone have the IP ? i would like to verify that the IP is not just a Tor exit node in Moscow. DHS was classifying russian tor exit nodes as russian hackers.

https://theintercept.com/2017/01/04/the-u-s-government-thinks-thousands-of-russian-hackers-are-reading-my-blog-they-arent/

sidd

The Daily Beast did not disclose the exact IP address.
But consider the alternatives :
If it were a Tor exit node, they would know, and would not report it as the GRUs "agency’s headquarters on Grizodubovoy Street".

So either the Daily Beast is lying through their teeth, or the US intelligence services were right when they stated :

Quote
in January 2017, the CIA, NSA, and FBI assessed “with high confidence” that “Russian military intelligence (General Staff Main Intelligence Directorate or GRU) used the Guccifer 2.0 persona, and DCLeaks.com to release US victim data.

So here is your conspiracy theory : The Daily Beast has been bribed by the NSA and they are all out there to blame innocent Putin !
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Rob Dekker

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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #3318 on: March 23, 2018, 09:45:50 AM »
Sidd, your claim to what you call "DHS was classifying russian tor exit nodes as russian hackers."
is not correct.

Here is the full list of IP addresses deemed 'suspicious' by the DHS :

https://www.us-cert.gov/sites/default/files/publications/JAR-16-20296A.csv

There are only TWO Russian IP address there which are :
95.105.72.78 and
93.171.203.244

I have not even checked if these are tor exit nodes or not.

The issue is that DHS just identified suspicious nodes, not particularly Russian. Let alone "russian hackers".
« Last Edit: March 23, 2018, 10:03:02 AM by Rob Dekker »
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Hefaistos

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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #3319 on: March 23, 2018, 10:48:36 AM »
While more evidence may be required to prove (beyond a reasonable doubt) that Russia was behind the Skripal poisoning, the linked article discusses some of the evidence that points at the Kremlin:

Title: "Fact Check: Is There 'Literally No Evidence' Russia Was Behind the Skripal Poisoning?"

http://www.weeklystandard.com/fact-check-is-there-literally-no-evidence-russia-was-behind-the-skripal-poisoning/article/2012021

Extract: "The is definitely evidence."

There is no evidence mentioned in that article.

And now Boris Johnson has been revealed as a Liar. "Evidence submitted by the British government in court today proves, beyond any doubt, that Boris Johnson has been point blank lying about the degree of certainty Porton Down scientists have about the Skripals being poisoned with a Russian “novichok” agent."
What the court says: "Blood samples from Sergei Skripal and Yulia Skripal were analysed and the
findings indicated exposure to a nerve agent or related compound. The samples
tested positive for the presence of a Novichok class nerve agent OR CLOSELY RELATED AGENT."

So they don't even know that it's Novichok, which has been doubted given the poor result of the poisoning. And of course they don't know that it's Russian origin.

https://www.craigmurray.org.uk/archives/2018/03/boris-johnson-a-categorical-liar/#tc-comment-title

Neven

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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #3320 on: March 23, 2018, 11:28:36 AM »
In fact, jingoist clown Johnson agreed with an MP that the upcoming World Cup in Russia is to Putin what the 1936 Olympics were to Hitler. Way to go, Boris...  ::)
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SteveMDFP

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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #3321 on: March 23, 2018, 11:47:57 AM »

And now Boris Johnson has been revealed as a Liar. "Evidence submitted by the British government in court today proves, beyond any doubt, that Boris Johnson has been point blank lying about the degree of certainty Porton Down scientists have about the Skripals being poisoned with a Russian “novichok” agent."
What the court says: "Blood samples from Sergei Skripal and Yulia Skripal were analysed and the
findings indicated exposure to a nerve agent or related compound. The samples
tested positive for the presence of a Novichok class nerve agent OR CLOSELY RELATED AGENT."

So they don't even know that it's Novichok, which has been doubted given the poor result of the poisoning. And of course they don't know that it's Russian origin.

https://www.craigmurray.org.uk/archives/2018/03/boris-johnson-a-categorical-liar/#tc-comment-title

No.  Wrong.  You'd often not identify a toxin by what's in the blood, you identify it in the environment.  By the time many toxins are in the blood, they've been oxidized, reduced, enzymatically degraded, bound to proteins, diluted, eliminated in the urine.  Given the potency of nerve agents, I'm surprised that one could find any detectable trace in the bloodstream.  But there'd be fairly characteristic signs and symptoms.

If you've been following the reports, traces of Novichok were found in at least three locations.  If you want to shoot down the reported ID of the agent, you'd have to critique the chemical analysis of these environmental samples, not blood tests. 

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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #3322 on: March 23, 2018, 12:22:38 PM »
Per the Palmer Report..... there is going to be a 10 AM EST announcement from Rod Rosenstein regarding cyber crime.  Since Sessions is NOT the one making the announcement, it may also be related to RussiaGate.....  Perhaps more indictments of those involved in the hacking during the US elections....

http://www.palmerreport.com/analysis/rod-rosenstein-major-trump-russia/8961/

The Russian onion continues to get peeled back along with Traitor Donnie....

FOX (RT) News....."The Trump Channel.....where truth and journalism are dead."

Neven

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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #3323 on: March 23, 2018, 01:37:26 PM »
If you've been following the reports, traces of Novichok were found in at least three locations.

Steve, I've been looking for reports stating as much, but haven't been able to find them (so many hits show up). Nothing on Wikipedia either that unequivocally states that samples used by Porton Down to identify the nerve agent were environmental rather than blood samples. Could you point me to them?

Edit: Found one direct quote, here, by the chief medical officer for England, that trace amounts have been found at the pub and restaurant.
« Last Edit: March 23, 2018, 02:38:51 PM by Neven »
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SteveMDFP

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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #3324 on: March 23, 2018, 02:56:12 PM »
If you've been following the reports, traces of Novichok were found in at least three locations.

Steve, I've been looking for reports stating as much, but haven't been able to find them (so many hits show up). Nothing on Wikipedia either that unequivocally states that samples used by Porton Down to identify the nerve agent were environmental rather than blood samples. Could you point me to them?

Edit: Found one direct quote, here, by the chief medical officer for England, that trace amounts have been found at the pub and restaurant.

Right.  Can't do the search right now, but I believe traces were found at the park bench.  Maybe also his car?  Regardless, just two locations means that ID of these locations is where the money is in terms of identifying the exact chemical composition.  Blood strikes me as an improbable source for specific identification, but that depends on highly technical considerations of chemical stability of the agent and limits of detection of the analysis techniques.

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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #3325 on: March 23, 2018, 04:23:49 PM »
TerryM: You've got an all-fired nerve using "is it kind, is it true, is it necessary" while promoting Putin and Trump. I'm pretty much done here, but must register my disgust at your continuing efforts to cherry pick events to support the troll version of unreality. Have a look at Bolton and see if you really want to go on supporting authoritarian warmongers. Yes, the US has a lousy history with Vietnam and other events, but that's no excuse for encouraging conflict amongst those of us working towards overcoming the monstrous events here in the US.

Neven, it just so happens that the Novichok was diagnosed because there was a specialist lab nearby. I know you wish the facts didn't support that the real bad guys have won and we have to compromise to unseat them before we make our best effort to accomplish the difficult but necessary work of remaking civilization, but that's the way it is. Ignoring the horrible authoritarians taking over worldwide, led by monstrous Trump, while attacking allies and blaming victims, is not helpful, to put it mildly.

« Last Edit: March 23, 2018, 04:41:50 PM by Susan Anderson »

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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #3326 on: March 23, 2018, 04:51:05 PM »
Putin, a Little Man Still Trying to Prove His Bigness
https://www.newyorker.com/news/news-desk/putin-a-little-man-still-trying-to-prove-his-bigness

Quote
At sixty-five, the diminutive leader of the world’s largest country, which covers eleven time zones spanning two continents, still seems to be a little man obsessed with proving his bigness—physically and politically, at home and on the global stage.

During his third term as President, which began in 2012, Putin and his allies grew increasingly ambitious, seizing Crimea, in 2014, intervening in Syria’s civil war, in 2015, meddling in the 2016 American Presidential election, allegedly plotting the assassinations of exiles and dissidents over the past couple of years, and, shortly before the 2018 Russian Presidential election, boasting of a new nuclear weapon capable of evading U.S. missile defenses.
....
Besides Ukraine, Syria, and the U.S. elections—the exemplars of Russia’s disruptive intentions—the report cites its arms sales to undermine key U.S. alliances, exploitation of Europe’s divisions, embrace of populist candidates globally, propping up of the crisis-riddled Venezuelan government, stoking of ethnic tensions in the Balkans, fuelling of high-level corruption in South Africa, leveraging of information to influence Mexico’s 2018 election, and methodical spawning of a worldwide propaganda network to challenge the Western order.
....
Putin’s gains are now tangible. Putinesque candidates did well in recent Italian and German elections, while countries that had left the Soviet orbit—Poland, Hungary, the Czech Republic, and Slovakia—have warmed to Moscow again. Middle Eastern nations—such disparate bedfellows as Israel, Iran, and Saudi Arabia—have far better relations today with Putin’s Russia. The Israeli Prime Minister, Benjamin Netanyahu, often consults with Putin when there are problems on the Syrian or Lebanese borders. Putin’s military intervention in the Syrian civil war, since 2015, has expanded Russia’s access to an air base in Latakia and gained for Russia the use of a naval base in Tartus, with an entryway to the Mediterranean for the Russian fleet—a strategic game-changer for the West.
....
new evidence that Russia has been secretly stockpiling the deadliest known nerve agent, “very likely for the purpose of assassination.” After the murder attempt against a former Russian double agent earlier this month, Britain also announced that it would look into fourteen other suspicious murders of Russians on its soil. The use of nerve agents represents an astounding violation of a seminal international treaty banning chemical weapons that Moscow signed in the nineties.
....
Washington’s disarray under President Trump is a partial success for the Kremlin. “Putin succeeded beyond his wildest imagination in identifying the weakness in our political system and sowing bigger chaos in 2016,” Bill Burns, a former U.S. Ambassador to Russia who is now the president of the Carnegie Endowment for International Peace, told me. “He sees Trump’s erratic behavior and polarization as serving his purposes. He concluded years ago that the way to create greater space for Russia in the world was to chip away at the United States. What he did in Syria was another way to chip away at the American position in the world and exert Russian pressure.”

Buddy

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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #3327 on: March 23, 2018, 05:04:43 PM »
Quote
TerryM: You've got an all-fired nerve using "is it kind, is it true, is it necessary" while promoting Putin and Trump. I'm pretty much done here, but must register my disgust at your continuing efforts to cherry pick events to support the troll version of unreality. Have a look at Bolton and see if you really want to go on supporting authoritarian warmongers. Yes, the US has a lousy history with Vietnam and other events, but that's no excuse for encouraging conflict amongst those of us working towards overcoming the monstrous events here in the US.

Neven, it just so happens that the Novichok was diagnosed because there was a specialist lab nearby. I know you wish the facts didn't support that the real bad guys have won and we have to compromise to unseat them before we make our best effort to accomplish the difficult but necessary work of remaking civilization, but that's the way it is. Ignoring the horrible authoritarians taking over worldwide, led by monstrous Trump, while attacking allies and blaming victims, is not helpful, to put it mildly.

Susan....

You need to understand that Terry is just a troll.....likely a Russian troll.  Some people deserve your comments....some people have earned your silence.  Don't waste your time on him...at least don't waste much of it.  You have a lot to offer....don't waste your time on Terry.

And Nevin....is from Austria.  He doesn't live in the US.  He doesn't have experience living in the US for a long period of time.   I actually excuse his ignorance about US politics to a certain extent.  I no longer EXPECT him to understand it.  He doesn't.  Just as I can't POSSIBLY understand the politics in Austria....even if I would take a good amount of time to study it.

And while that DOES NOT excuse his lack of knowledge (especially when he comments so much on the subject)....it DOES explain his lack of understanding.  So I now just pretty much ignore his thoughts on politics (as opposed to his thoughts on global warming...ice...etc of which he clearly has a grasp of).

And you shouldn't just "go away" when you get frustrated by some people's lack of understanding or their different point of view.  I know you and I don't see "eye to eye" on some things....and you hate MY CAPITALLIZATION......and you don't like my sometimes "attacking" style.  But what WE (American citizens LIVING IN THE US) are going through a VERY CRUCIAL TIME right now....and until we hold Donnie accountable for his actions.... we need a lot of help.  He is too dangerous.

SO DON'T PETER OUT.  Stay involved....even if you have to pace yourself, so that you don't get too frustrated.  The issues involved are important....and everyone is needed.  THAT INCLUDES YOU...



FOX (RT) News....."The Trump Channel.....where truth and journalism are dead."

SteveMDFP

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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #3328 on: March 23, 2018, 05:15:21 PM »

. . .Terry is  . .
And Nevin....is 



Completely off-topic, uncivilized, and inappropriate.  The topic here is Russiagate, not "gossip about people who post on ASIF."

If you want to gossip, start a gossip thread.  Makes it easier to delete such posts.

gerontocrat

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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #3329 on: March 23, 2018, 05:26:15 PM »

. . .Terry is  . .
And Nevin....is 



Completely off-topic, uncivilized, and inappropriate.  The topic here is Russiagate, not "gossip about people who post on ASIF."


I could not agree more.
___________________________________________________
ps: I do not live in the Arctic - so I am not qualified to comment on the Arctic ?
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Susan Anderson

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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #3330 on: March 23, 2018, 08:11:04 PM »
Buddy, please, you just made it a whole lot less likely that people who agree with us will give some thought to what I said and the useful quote from The New Yorker on Putin. When I'm talking to a Christian, I reference the Gospels. Shouting and violence just shuts people down. It doesn't matter if you're right. This is a backwater in any case, and nobody is changing their views here, which is why I want to spend my efforts more productively, elsewhere. But I couldn't let my words be used to attack Martin Gisser, who walks the walk.

Neven

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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #3331 on: March 23, 2018, 08:29:18 PM »
You can bash me a bit, I don't mind. I might be completely wrong, after all. The point I'm trying to make everywhere, is that there are bad people on all sides, and those bad people try to get us to pick sides based on borders, cultures and/or religions. So, for instance, the bad people on what we would consider 'our' side (the West and its allies) may try to stoke flames and fears by pushing for a New Cold War, because it fits their agenda. This also makes the bad people on 'their' side (Russia) stronger, because they do the exact thing to the Russian people, most of whom, at heart, don't want any conflict.

The bad people on both sides is one side, and the good people on both sides is the other. We want the good people to fight all the bad people, whether on 'our' side or 'their' side of the (national, cultural, religious) border. But because we are made to think that our number one priority is fighting that other country, culture or religion, we tend to be blind for the bad people pushing for it all.

'Russia' may very well be the culprit in the Skripal case, but it's also possible that it isn't. What bugs me, is that people nevertheless cast their verdict, not willing to wait for even one second. The danger is that maybe this is exactly what the bad people want them to do.

Maybe I'm just too wary when it comes to trusting governments and intelligence agencies at face value. Most of the time it makes things worse. I'm looking for a way to get out of the catch-22, because we can't solve anything this way. After Putin it will be something else again, and then something else, and then something else, under our beds, in our shopping malls, in our computers. Meanwhile, the military-industrial complex makes huge profits, while millions of people get murdered.
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E. Smith

Buddy

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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #3332 on: March 23, 2018, 08:52:52 PM »
Trump's new national security advisor has ties to Cambridge Analytica

https://finance.yahoo.com/news/trump-apos-national-security-advisor-191904810.html

Quote
In a new story, The New York Times reports that John Bolton's political action committee The John Bolton Super PAC hired Cambridge Analytica in August 2014, "months after the political data firm was founded and while it was still harvesting the Facebook  data."

In Cambridge Analytica's  early days, Bolton's PAC funneled $1.2 million toward polling and "behavioral microtargeting with psychographic messaging" over the course of two years.

"To do that work, Cambridge used Facebook data, according to the documents and two former employees familiar with the work," The New York Times reports.

That research supported candidates on the right, including Republican Thom Tillis's 2014 bid for the Senate. According to the report, Bolton's PAC was aware that the data came from Facebook users, though it's not clear if Bolton knew that the data was obtained through a Facebook developer without consent.

Yes....John Bolton is a real sweetheart....
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sidd

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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #3333 on: March 23, 2018, 10:05:31 PM »

https://theintercept.com/2017/01/04/the-u-s-government-thinks-thousands-of-russian-hackers-are-reading-my-blog-they-arent/

"I found a total of 7,854 IPs that were, in recent years, Tor exit nodes, and I compared it to the list of 876 IPs that were published with the Grizzly Steppe report. I found 367 IP addresses in common — in other words, at least 367 of the suspicious IP addresses are, or were, Tor exit nodes. And after this story was posted, I was alerted to an even better data set, assembled by the Tor Project’s CollecTor, that showed more Tor nodes: it turns out that 426 of the IP addresses in the Grizzly Steppe report are historical Tor nodes, so it’s actually 49% rather than 42%."

sidd

TerryM

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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #3334 on: March 23, 2018, 10:57:42 PM »
Thanks gentlemen. Somehow the art of disagreeing while not being disagreeable hasn't been promoted by TPTB for a very long time.
Susan apparently saw her words being used to discredit a friend, where my perception is that it's OK to toss back weapons that have missed their mark. IIRC Polynesian cultures actually had a contest where multiple spears were simultaneously thrown at the ruler. He'd catch them in the air, reverse them, and kill those who had "attacked". Probably nothing more than a myth.


As far as Buddy goes, I suspect that I've lived longer in the US than he has. I stayed for all of my working years + 4 years of retirement. I'm not sure that this is of great import in any case. We've one member who once took a one way bus trip through fly-over country, and he now understands the Trump voters as well or better than another member who has made his life among them.


If I agreed with Susan, that nobody's views will be changed by what they read here, I'd head elsewhere myself. My own perceptions are still malleable enough that I've learned much from these discussions. Often negative memes that I really didn't want to face, but I've been a glutton for knowledge during my whole life, why shut it off here and now?


Russiagate began as a meme that Candidate Trump had conspired with President Putin to assure that Trump would be elected as the (illegitimate) President of The United States of America.


Women wore their fingers to the bone, then wore their hand made, but vagina inspired chapeau to show the world that they were not Trump supporters. Trump supporters still can be found beneath the broad bills of their ruddy caps.
Haberdashery hasn't been so fraught with political intrigue since Harry Truman's equally unexpected win at the polls.


The inestimable Mr Mueller, who I don't believe has ever stood for election, might be the most powerful man in the country at this moment. Very sad if true.
What does one call a country where the appointee of an appointee decides who will rule the land?


America earlier suffered under the leadership of one who was anointed by a Supreme Court who refused to recuse themselves as they obviously should have. Should that have been referred to as a Judicial Coup?


Back to Russiagate.
President Putin apparently was supposed to have tapes of Candidate Trump ordering Moscow Prostitutes to pee on a hotel bed in Moscow. This, we were told, would so embarrass a future President Trump that he would prefer to take traitorous actions against his own country rather than allow this salacious material to air.
This story was brought to light by none other than a former British spy, whose offices were now located in Salisbury England. What an amazing coincidence!
Our former spy, who hadn't been in Moscow for a very long time, has claimed his information originated from a former Russian spy and another contact who still resided in Russia. Imagine his good fortune at finding just such a pair, a father and daughter team if you will, in his own little community of Salisbury.


I personally doubt that President Trump would be terribly traumatized by the release of an old pee tape. Perhaps he would, but it seems a little out of character.
Candidate Clinton would also be difficult to blackmail IMHO. Perhaps a video showing her with Weiner's wife? Perhaps something else? But I doubt it.
She survived Bill's public infidelity. She survived laughing on national television while being shown a video of Qaddafi's most brutal murder. Shame just isn't something she's susceptible to.


What then to make of Bill's sleepover in Putin's Palace? Was this a nefarious scheme to blackmail Hillary? - Probably not. Bill's peccadillo's were in public domain. His "speaking engagements" with their million dollar price-tags didn't even make headlines any more. What is poor Putin to do?


 To be continued when the muse returns
Terry

wili

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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #3335 on: March 23, 2018, 11:16:07 PM »
"What does one call a country where the appointee of an appointee decides who will rule the land?"

Ummm, a country ruled by law??

Do you think all elected officials should always be above the law?

"A force de chercher de bonnes raisons, on en trouve; on les dit; et après on y tient, non pas tant parce qu'elles sont bonnes que pour ne pas se démentir." Choderlos de Laclos "You struggle to come up with some valid reasons, then cling to them, not because they're good, but just to not back down."

TerryM

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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #3336 on: March 23, 2018, 11:28:19 PM »
"What does one call a country where the appointee of an appointee decides who will rule the land?"

Ummm, a country ruled by law??

Do you think all elected officials should always be above the law?


No
How about appointees?


Terry

AbruptSLR

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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #3337 on: March 24, 2018, 12:06:17 AM »
Per the Palmer Report..... there is going to be a 10 AM EST announcement from Rod Rosenstein regarding cyber crime.
This hacking was done on behalf of Iran (not Russia):

Title: "U.S. charges, sanctions Iranians for global cyber attacks on behalf of Tehran"

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-usa-cyber-iran/u-s-charges-sanctions-iranians-for-global-cyber-attacks-on-behalf-of-tehran-idUSKBN1GZ22K

Extract: "The United States on Friday charged and sanctioned nine Iranians and an Iranian company for attempting to hack into hundreds of universities worldwide, dozens of companies and parts of the U.S. government, including its main energy regulator, on behalf of Tehran’s government. "
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AbruptSLR

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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #3338 on: March 24, 2018, 12:32:03 AM »
Also, as DiGenova and his wife represent other clients involved in Russiagate, they are likely conflicted from also serving on Trump's legal team:

Title: "DiGenova role on President's legal team in flux"

https://www.cnn.com/2018/03/23/politics/digenova-role-trump-legal-team/index.html

Extract: "Veteran Washington attorney Joseph diGenova's role as part of President Donald Trump's legal team is still in question, according to two sources familiar with the matter.

DiGenova's hiring was announced on Monday by Jay Sekulow, counsel to the President. DiGenova, along with his wife and law partner, Victoria Toensing, had a Thursday meeting with the President, the sources said. Even so, diGenova's role, as well as that of Toensing who is also in discussions about joining the team, are in flux. One source said no one has been officially hired."
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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #3340 on: March 24, 2018, 04:11:00 PM »
wheeler on iranian indictments:


https://www.emptywheel.net/2018/03/23/john-bolton-will-get-to-start-his-iran-war-because-nine-iranians-stole-academic-dissertations/

sidd

I doubt very much that Rosenstein timed this announcement in order to help Bolton attack Iran; rather as Sessions was absent I suspect that Rosenstein's announcement is somehow connected to Russiagate, and that Sessions' recusal stopped him from wrapping himself in the glory of this announcement.
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SteveMDFP

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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #3341 on: March 24, 2018, 05:06:13 PM »
Interesting profile on Skripal:

Poisoned Russian spy wrote to Putin asking to be pardoned, friend claims
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2018/03/24/poisoned-russian-spy-wrote-putin-asking-pardoned-friend-claims/

It's hard to imagine he could recently have been doing any intelligence work.  Who would trust a convicted double-agent who wanted to repent and return to his homeland?  Not with sensitive information, certainly.  And he'd surely already have divulged everything there was to divulge.


Martin Gisser

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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #3342 on: March 25, 2018, 03:29:59 AM »
Do you doubt that there is a book containing a formula [...] to produce a Novichok?
YES. (I.e. a nontrivial Novichok nerve agent, not just any one.)
PLUS, there is the problem of testing. (It is fun testing LSD, but testing a perverse nerve agent ...)

Quote
Perhaps you doubt that the author Mirzayanov lives in America?
WHY should I?

Quote
Could it be that you're unfamiliar with the disposal of the Uzbekistan chemical weapons facility that worked with Novichoks by the Americans?
NOPE. (I read a BBC and a NYTimes article from back then, 199x. Guess what the Russians did during their overtime in Uzbekistan?)


Neven

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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #3343 on: March 25, 2018, 02:53:13 PM »


Some quotes from the Real News Network (my bolded):

Quote
STEPHEN COHEN: Well, let's begin by saying that there's hardly been a time when Putin did not call for good relations with the United States, even in the worst of times. And he continues to refer to American political leaders as 'my partners,' even in the worst of times. This, by the way, drives harder line, or harder line people in the Soviet security establishment up the wall. They say to him, why do you keep calling them your partner?

(...)

Ever since the America and the Soviet Union acquired the capacity to put nuclear warheads on ballistic missiles, cross the seas and strike the other country, we have been in a strategic agreement called mutual assured destruction. And all that meant that if Washington launched at Moscow, within minutes Moscow would launch at Washington, and both countries would be grievously affected, if not completely destroyed. And this doctrine, called MAD, may seem frightful, but it kept the nuclear peace until the idea came up that you could build an antiballistic missile weapon, missile defense. It started with Reagan.

To prevent that, I think signed in 1972, was a treaty, the antiballistic missile treaty, which meant that the sides were prohibited from deploying antiballistic missile systems in order to preserve this mutual assured destruction so that neither side would be tempted to launch a first strike. Each side, America and the Soviet Union, was given one exemption exemption. Moscow put a missile defense system over, Russia did over Moscow. And I think we have our someplace in South Dakota for some reason, I'm not sure why. In 2002 President Bush left this treaty, nullified it unilaterally.

Ever since then we've been pushing missile defense installations toward Russia. I think there are 30 or 40. They range from, as I understand it, California to Alaska. But there's one operating in Romania, one to open in Poland. But here's the thing. we've figured out how to deploy them on ships. And so these anti-missile defense systems are sailing on ships in the Black Sea and the Baltic Sea, right on Russia's borders.

(...)

We now have these new weapons which make it absolutely impossible. And so he ends by saying, therefore, having restored the balance of sanity, let us sit down and have major nuclear weapons talks again.

If it's true, and I have no reason to think it's not true, though the stages of development of these weapons is a little unclear, it's true what Putin said about these four or five new weapons systems. We are now in a completely new era, because since the end of the Soviet Union the United States has tried to develop at least the capacity of a first strike capability at Russia using these missile defenses. That is over. It's not possible any longer. Trillions of dollars have been wasted.

By the way, I forget which administration, Bush or Obama, made missile defense a NATO project. It started out as an American project. But it officially gave it to NATO. Why? Because where NATO goes, the missile defense installations go, and NATO has expanded right to Russia's borders.
So this is an historic turning point, assuming what Putin said is largely true. Though you wouldn't know it. I guess you had on professor Theodore Postol of MIT. And I mean, Ted is excellent on this stuff but you don't get any of this in the mainstream media. Putin's speech was read as an act of threatened aggression against the United States. It was just the opposite.

(...)

One reason this situation is so dangerous, Aaron, so dangerous, is that in the '70s and '80s, and I participated at a junior or younger level, the debate over Cold War or detente in the United States, that the pro-detente people, the anti-Cold War people had lots of very senior allies many in Congress. Even in the State Department. Even among presidential aides. It was always a fair fight.

There is no one today. Only the Schumers and the Pelosis. And they have become with this Russia gate stuff, claiming that Putin attacked America and it was like Pearl Harbor or 9/11. I mean I never call people names, but this is warmongering. That's exactly what it is. If you claim Russia attacked America, the assumption is we have to attack Russia. And we're talking about nuclear war potentially. So what kind of political leadership is, we have descended into a morass of degraded commentary on Russia that has never even when the Soviet Union existed, even during the worst days of the Cold War, we didn't have this kind of discourse.

Well, at least we're having a different kind of discourse on the ASIF.  ;)

How do we get to détente? How do we overcome the power of the military-industrial complex?
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TerryM

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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #3344 on: March 25, 2018, 11:00:42 PM »
Neven


Your video above is amazing. This is like Hansen explaining green house gas to a nation of deniers. This understanding is what people should be out in the street promoting.


Listen for 14 minutes. It might save your life - and mine,
Terry

AbruptSLR

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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #3345 on: March 26, 2018, 02:37:56 AM »
As Cohen's payment for Stormy Daniels' NDA was actually a donation to Trump's 2016 campaign, Mueller should investigate Daniels' claim that Trump hired a thug to physically threaten her.

Title: "Stormy Daniels: I was threatened in 2011 over telling my Trump story"

https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/donald-trump/stormy-daniels-i-was-threatened-2011-over-telling-my-trump-n859911

Extract: "The adult film star said that the threat left her "rattled" but that she didn't go to the police because she was scared."
« Last Edit: March 26, 2018, 04:26:07 PM by AbruptSLR »
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Rob Dekker

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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #3346 on: March 26, 2018, 06:12:29 AM »
Neven, I really wish you would provide some CONTEXT instead of posting these pro-Russia videos.
So that I don't have to do it.  ;)



Some quotes from the Real News Network (my bolded):

Quote
STEPHEN COHEN: Well, let's begin by saying that there's hardly been a time when Putin did not call for good relations with the United States, ...

That's the first sentence, and it already calls for CONTEXT.

The problem is that what Putin says and what Putin does are most often completely opposite.
He even calls Ukrainians his 'friends' and 'brothers', while he is killing them in the Donbas and trying every single method to destroy their state economically, militarily and otherwise (including hacking into and taking down their power grid).
https://www.wired.com/story/russian-hackers-attack-ukraine/

And if you still don't believe me, then believe the hundreds of Ukrainian soldiers that were killed when they went into the 'humanitarian corridor' that Putin promised them out of Ilovaisk :
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Ilovaisk

But back to the subject, one of the first things Cohen says is that Putin said that the start of the "Arms Race" (which I'm not sure actually exists) was the moment the US withdrew from the ABM Treaty in 2002. Now we need even more CONTEXT.

The ABM Treaty was always a bit of a long shot. It restricted DEFENSE against incoming nuclear missiles. It assured that MAD (Mutual Assured Destruction) remained in place. It basically ties your arms around your back, so that nobody would punch a first blow in a boxing match. Works great as long as there are only two parties involved, but right after 9/11 and the fear of WMD from rogue nations with nuclear weapons that strategy would no longer work. That's why the US stepped out of the ABM Treaty. It makes so much more sense to reduce OFFENSIVE weapons, and increase DEFENSIVE weapons.

So that is what the US and Russia agreed upon in 2002. They signed the SORT treaty, which significantly reduced nuclear OFFENSIVE weapons (from 6000 down to below 2000) :
https://georgewbush-whitehouse.archives.gov/news/releases/2002/05/20020524-10.html

This is what Putin said at that time :
Quote
PRESIDENT PUTIN: I concur with the assessment given by my colleague, Mr. Bush. And naturally, our position is well-known, we are guided by the facts that it's more worthwhile perhaps to eliminate a certain part of nuclear potentials. At the same time, I'd like to point out another thing here. Any man who has at least once in his career dealt with arms, had arms in his hands, at least to hunt or a rifle or whatever, he knows that it's much better, much safer to have it in stock disarmed, disassembled perhaps, rather than to have it in your arms and charged with bullets in it and with your finger on the trigger at the same time. This is a different state of affairs, as it were.

Not a PEEP by Putin about the US leaving the ABM Treaty. That's because the SORT strategy made much more sense to both parties than the ABM Treaty.

Do you guys get it ? Pay attention to what Putin DOES, not to what he SAYS.
Heck, it's just been a few weeks since Russia used a nerve agent in the UK, and then denied it.
Please don't fall into that trap (of believing Putin's words) over and over again.

And that was just the first few minutes into this video.
There is so much more BS by Cohen in this video.
« Last Edit: March 26, 2018, 06:31:19 AM by Rob Dekker »
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Rob Dekker

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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #3347 on: March 26, 2018, 06:49:02 AM »
About Stephen Cohen, he has made claims that

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stephen_F._Cohen
Quote
the US political-media establishment was silent about "Kiev's atrocities" in the Donbass region which in turn was criticized by Cathy Young as "error-riddled" and an "embarrassing" repetition of Kremlin propaganda.[4][5][6]

Ukraine did not kill their own people in Eastern Ukraine. Russia did. I've given plenty of examples in the "Russia in Ukraine" thread :
https://forum.arctic-sea-ice.net/index.php/topic,2160.0.html

Seriously, why do you guys keep on repeating Russian propaganda voices ?
Don't FACTS matter any more on the ASIF ?
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TerryM

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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #3348 on: March 26, 2018, 07:41:03 AM »
Salisbury England, what a poisonous nest of spies!


A very short timeline:
1995 Pablo Miller of Salisbury becomes Sergei Skripal's MI6 connection.


2009 7 July Christopher Steele becomes Director of Orbis Business Intelligence of Salisbury.
?? ?? Pablo Miller, aka Antonio Alvarez de Hidalgo does work for Orbis.
2010 9 July Sergei Skripal, recently released from a Russian prison arrives.
2011 Skripal pays cash for his detached red brick Salisbury home.
2012 Skripal's wife dies of cancer.
2014 Skripal's daughter returns to Moscow.
2015 Pablo Miller receives an OBE on retirement from MI6 - Yah, it is a big deal!
2016 June through December - Steele (Orbis) writes the 17 memos that become the Steele Dossier.
2016 Skripal's older brother dies.
2017 10 January - Buzzfeed publishes Steele's Dossier.
2017/18 Questions arise over the Steele Dossier's sources.
2017 Skripal's son dies at 43 in March.
2018 Skripal and his visiting daughter are apparently poisoned with "weapons grade chemicals" in March.


Porton Downs, the Eu's primary facility researching "weapons grade chemicals" has been based in Salisbury for many decades


What a beautiful town!
Terry
Just about everything above is available from Wikipedia

Rob Dekker

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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #3349 on: March 26, 2018, 07:53:18 AM »
I think one of your problems Rob and others in similar situations is that you do not know what Putin says, let alone know what he has done.

That is such a strange remark, when I just right there QUOTED what Putin said, mentioned what he did not say and gave a number of examples of what he DID do.
And when YOU quoted the things Putin said in 2002, some seem to re-emphasize my point :

Quote
"Therefore I fully believe that the decision taken by the president of the United States does not pose a threat to the national security of the Russian Federation."

But all of sudden, now, 16 years later, it was such a bad decision that it was the cause of Russia developing ever more deadly nuclear missiles and that obviously was the US's fault ? Are you kidding ?

Again, WHY do you and others on this thread keep on repeating Russian propaganda ?
« Last Edit: March 26, 2018, 08:15:46 AM by Rob Dekker »
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